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How Much is Your Right to Vote Worth?
Attila Dimedici writes "Two thirds of the students at NYU would give up their right to vote in the next election for a full scholarship. Some would be satisfied with an ipod. A few would be willing to give up the right for the rest of their lives for one million dollars."
Theoretically, if we had candidates that represented us instead of the interests of corporations and special interest groups, our right to vote would be worth a great deal.
However, since our choices are limited to list A of sycophants or list B of sycophants, I'm thinking the college kids have over-valued the vote.
We can't elect anyone worth much to the general population, we can't get them impeached when they break the laws, violate the constitution, torture, engage in warmaking, arrest without probable cause, hold people incommunicado without hearings for extended periods of time, make a huge industry out of imprisoning the population for personal choices about what intoxicants they prefer...
Yes, I'd say an ipod is worth considerably more than a vote is today. It shouldn't be; but here we are.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
How much is my vote worth? I can answer that pretty easily...
Give me enough cash to live on comfortably, buy an island of my own where I won't be bothered, enough to bring people I want to visit there, and of course protect against pirates. Anyone know how much an army of ninjas costs?
Everyone has their price - that's mine.
convert them to a more trustworthy currency and get the fuck out of here.
Those that give up their right to vote, give it up to evil persons. Those who do such a thing deserve not the right to vote.
What if a supermaniacal, evil genius bent on ruling this country decided to take the billions of dollars he or she just happens to have, and buys votes in key areas in order to become President. What then?
I'd almost say who wouldn't give up their vote for a big material gain? One vote makes a really small difference, and most votes are basically between a douche and a turd.
I take a cup of coffee. It's probably not worth it.
Face facts, in New York, your vote doesn't count. All electors are going to vote for the Democrat candidate.
...then this would be horrible. As it is, selling your vote makes perfect sense. The state of democracy, especially in the US, is disgusting.
I'll only give up voting when they pry the lever from my cold, dead hands!
Seriously, even though corporations have control of our government at the moment, voting is not a right that you can sell or give away.
Vote at the polls, vote by taking action, and vote for yourself as someone who can make our country better.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
Not sure if people are missing the message. It's not about buying someone's vote, but someone's RIGHT to vote. Not just now, but for all time.
Oh, well... in the past, people have sold not just thier vote (or their right to vote), but their very soul... for much less.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
When I gain power, they'll be the first to the wall.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I would happily and joyfully give up my right to vote in the next election for one million dollars.
A quarter of it would go to the Ron Paul campaign, since I really enjoy how he's fucking with the status quo. Half of it would go to the campaign of whatever final candidate I like the best. A quarter would go to me, since I'm greedy that way.
"But Zorba! How could you give up your vote!" Come on, do you honestly think that the various groups I like couldn't get far more than a single vote with that much cash spent on advertising? I'm not giving up my vote by taking this deal - I'm multiplying it enormously.
I don't know what the "break-even" point would be on this trade, I'd have to think about that seriously. But if you don't mind going into advertising a little bit, pretty much everyone should be willing to give up their next vote - or even all of their votes - for a sufficient amount of money. Unless the physical action of putting a piece of paper in a box is really that important to you, I suppose.
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Voting is a precious right but it exists, in a practical sense, to give people influence over their government. Viewed that way, swapping the right to vote for anything that gives someone a better ability to influence the government is a smart trade.
How does this work in practice? Large corps have great political influence even though they have no right to vote. What they do have is money. In the real world, then, money applied to the political process is the equivalent of voting.
Given enough money that I am enabled to influence politics via means other than voting, I would consider selling my right to vote a perfectly rational, even patriotic thing to do.
In my case, I'm eligible for early retirement and could be politically active in a variety of ways post-retirement, but my pension wouldn't be big enough to give me enough free time to labor toward political goals. With just enough money to augment my pension I'd be free to pursue tasks other than eking out an existence.
I figure USD$1M would do it, barely. I'd certainly sell my right to vote for USD$5M.
It costs about $160,000 for us to go to NYU for 4 years. A bit more, actually. I'd trade my vote for $160k - imagine the political influence you can have with $160,000. In addition, I'd trade my vote for $160k and then buy votes with iPod touches. Every vote makes a difference, but that kind of money makes more difference.
Is it any surprise that people value the right to vote differently?
Obviously, since voter turnout is less than 50%, over half the people in the US value the right to vote less than the amount of effort and time required to actually vote.
Consider that, from a logical perspective, VALUE(right to vote) == SUM{[IMPACT(act of voting)]/[(COST(act of voting)]}.
Only when elected government commits truly heinous acts, or actions that directly affect the person in question, does the impact of the act of voting get large enough to make the value of the right to vote very high. This is magnified by the dilution of votes -- if you are in a state with 10 million people, ask yourself -- how much does your vote really count?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
You could have far more influence over the government with that $1,000,000 than you ever will by voting.
Would cost them everything they ever had and will have in the future. If they can't meet that price then they don't get it. The beauty of that price is I get my right to vote back and they get nothing for even thinking of something like that. I can only begin to imagine the number of people rolling over in their graves if they found out people were selling their right to vote which was paid for in lots of blood to begin with.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Assuming that we're talking about only giving up an /individual/ right to vote. So long as other people's votes are so cheap, the interest alone on a million dollars can buy more votes than I'll ever had. Even 1% of a million bucks buys a lot of iPods.
I'm confused. We have a right to vote? I thought that was a privilege for law-abiding citizens of a certain age only in most states, not a right. Last I checked, there is no right to vote in the Bill of Rights.
Now all we need is to vote in candidates who are willing to enact a retroactive 200% tax on vote selling and we can pay off the national debt.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
When I vote, I have to "fit in" with a majority of the voters in order to get my change made. If my drop in the bucket falls on the other side, say such as a vote for Al Gore, then I am stuck with the decision others had made for 4 years. It's a fair process, but the Electoral College is also a detracting factor. At the point when my vote counts is diminished, frustration sets in. All said, I'd take the money because it is tangible.
At least you guys have a choice. Voting is compulsory in Australia, and every time there is a local election we are requited to turn out.
I've had to fill in so many non attendance forms its not funny...
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Welcome to United States 2007!
Many people give up their vote because they don't want to take the chance of jury duty and others give it up because they can't be bothered. I'm surprised that it took a million to get people to give up the vote. Considering how little value our votes have come to have, I'm really surprised it took that much.
I think you could do a hell of a lot more with one million dollars than you could do with your right to vote in your lifetime.
Especially if you have my (liberal) political views, since there never going to get into power of any kind.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
If the candidates are equally good (or bad) to someone, it doesn't matter whom he votes. However, if a significant portion of people gives up their right to vote, one cannot reasonably expect the behavior of all the candidates to remain the same.
If you think about it, what we're really talking about is exchanging one rather rigid method of representation (voting) with other more flexible methods. Do you think you'd have more influence in our society with a single vote or with 1 million dollars? How much would a free college degree help?
People today don't care about politics. They've got little to gain, and little to lose.
...
Perhaps asking the people of teheran/pyongyang/ryadh/... how many months of pay they would give to get a real vote like the americans have would give you another answer.
Americans, especially young ones, don't care. They've got everything they want, why would you bother them with this politics thing ? Is something wrong ? Just cry until someone solves it and surely it will get solved
A ballot means next to nothing, especially in the US where they have a one party system. "Should I vote for the republican party that doesn't care about people and isn't afraid to admit it, or the democrats, who don't care about people and are afraid to admit it" In Canada, it's a similar situation; "This party will ruin everything, this party will ruin our economy, and this party will do absolutely nothing" If you really want to make a difference, sell your write to vote for millions, buy a solid gold house and a rocket car, and use your free time to write Mayors, MPs, congressmen, etc. Boycott organizations or corporations you don't like. These days, money talks, votes do not.
-I only code in BASIC.-
All this really reveals is priorities:
"Two thirds of the students at NYU would give up their right to vote in the next election for a full scholarship."
Okay, so how about they all vote for a candidate who will deliver a European-style Universal Third Level Education?
Yup...
This is hard for me to draw a strong opinion on, because both sides can be argued in many ways. On one hand, those that would willingly give up their right to vote for *any* reason maybe should not be voting in the first place. The opportunity to vote is a privilege that should be seen as priceless. However, education is a path to freedom. Perhaps giving up the right to vote in one election, but having the opportunity to become educated and therefore possibly a more useful and better-informed citizen would be a tradeoff. Maybe they're trading something priceless (if they have no other opportunity for college) for a temporary drop of another priceless right.
The emperor is naked.
I would sell my vote for a single election for a sixpack (of beer).
I would sell my lifetime RIGHT to vote for a... well if somebody offered me 10 000$ i would start thinking it... for 500 000$ no questions asked.
If it's just US elections, give me the million and I'll set myself up in British Columbia.
Well, considering there are so many people out there that like to buy votes, these people would just be supplying a product that is very much in demand.
I had a felony, but now that's taken care of and most of the time I was voting anyway.
It's strange how all the states have different laws on how your voting privilege can be taken away.
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Sorry I marred Slashdot's reputation for stellar formatting and grammar.
The emperor is naked.
Your vote wasn't "worthless" when Texas came up with LBJ and voted dem primarily until the 80s. Keep it in a little bit of historical perspective. Heck, there's debate if anyone's vote counted back then, anyway.
In dollars or in euros? It seems important to ask for the euro will buy you more than the dollar :)
Giving up your right to vote for a full scholarship?
Huh. I managed to work my way to full tuition (still paying off the pesky amounts I had to borrow for living expenses.) I did that by working my butt off in high school.
It also means I'm smart enough to not sell my vote.
----
As a side note, did you know that the secret ballot wasn't introduced in the US until the middle of the nineteenth century? We take it for granted, yet it took them decades to realize it might be a good idea...
Actually I am a lab rat in an elaborate plot to take over the world.
So, what about the times that it would matter. Well, again, with the very real possibility that we'll get another "popular vote loss/College vote win" situation, I just don't feel the urge to care enough. Thanks for your vote! It just doesn't matter!
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
He who would trade his liberty for an Ipod,deserves neither.
New Yorkers,go figure.
If we give New York to China,can we have the Panama Canal back?
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Do you realize that 1/3rd of the student body is not US citizens so they have already given up their right to vote in the next election by enrolling at NYU as very few countries have absentee voting for students studying abroad. Looked at from that perspective 2/3rd does not seem that big a deal. Moreover students have a whole separate level of politics called student union elections where they can make their voices and opinions heard. They probably feel their time is better spent on the level of politics where they can make a difference than just turning up and voting for the Repulicrats or the Democraticans (frankly there is more difference in the policies of 2 communist party candidates standing for internal elections in China than between a Repulicrat and a Democratican of today)
**Life is too short to be serious**
How much for an all nighter, no holes barred?
I *DID* RTFA... While most of the discussion (and the intro) was about the *next* election, some of it also referred to the right to vote, period... including the very last sentence/comment: "anyone who'd sell his lifelong right to vote should be deported."
To which I say: A-freaking-men.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
a tacit endorsement of the Steve Jobs for Ultimate Ruler of the World campaign anyway?
They got my vote!
Monstar L
is what I'd sell my right to vote for. That should be enough money to buy the government of my country back. I'd have far more ability to kick Washington's ass with that kind of resources than with one vote and sharply worded letters to Congressmen and newspaper editorials.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Everyone knows that most college students don't care about politics and don't bother voting. I'm not surprised that so many woudl be willing to give up their right to vote for a shiny penny. Someone with this attitude doesn't deserve to vote.
Personally, I think that if you are a college student and still on your parents' insurance, you shouldn't be allowed to vote. I would support increasing the voting age to at least 21, maybe higher. I might even support paying off college students to keep them from voting. They're usually mindless, zombie liberals anyway.
The going rate for the year 2000 election was the $200-300 tax rebate Bush promised. I remember, quite explicitly, a colleague saying "I want $200, I'm voting for Bush."
People don't care about their country, their children's futures, or their own long-term well being. They say they do, but they don't. When it comes down to it, they sell out their souls, their childrens' souls, and their nations souls for a pittance.
The truth is that people get the government they deserve. A shit government elected by lazy, apathetic, and happily clueless citizens who simply don't deserve better.
If they did, they wouldn't elect the people they do. The shit politicians we elect are *obviously* shit politicians. Few try and say they're not going to do that, so they vote for the joke politicians: Ron Paul, Ross Perot, whoever. Instead of sitting there with the politician they actually like and voting for them, even when they know they'll fail. Admitting they voted for someone who lost. Instead, we disconnect and feign apathy, as we've spoiled ourselves in our fantasies about what kind of government we deserve. Why do we get so many shit politicians? The good leaders gave up on the US citizenry, for good reason.
Want proof? How many people pay attention in the primaries, where the good candidates actually show up once in a while?
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What was the other third thinking ? Seriously I don't think they believe their vote matter or will possibly change anything.... My guess is that democracy represents some kind of religion for them, a cult of the state where each good citizen does his duty by casting his ballot, protecting his precious liberty... in this mindset, their right to vote holds some kind of mystical power. I am glad the two other third don't buy in this naive cult, freedom has always been destroyed through the ballot.
\u262D = \u5350
Federal elections: It doesn't matter who I vote for, the NY electoral votes go to the Democrats.
State elections: It doesn't matter who I vote for, the NY assembly wastes all the money and asks for more.
Local elections: It doesn't matter who I vote for, everything is dictated by the federal and state governments, except how much money my town wastes on doomed projects.
I'd like a Ritter Sport, but would settle for a few Hershey's Kisses.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
How much's the going rate for giving up the right for ever these days?
Giving the right to vote for ever happens every day - every time some poor sod in Mexico or somewhere else decides to emigrate to the home of the brave and land of the free. Arrived there, he's just an alien with no right to vote and what does he get for it?
A minimum wage job and atrocious living conditions. That's how much it is worth!
As to the right to vote in the next election, that one isn't probably even worth a cup of coffee in a cardboard cup. With the system being as stable as it is, the cattle will just be able to choose between a blueish and reddish tinted droid out of the same assembly line anyway. If you can trade that for a working iPod of any type, you come out a ahead big time.
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Make it 1 million Euros (have you seen the dollar lately?) and a one way ticket to Frankfurt and I'm game. If you don't live here anymore, who cares if you don't have the right to vote?
http://www.CelloFourteGroupie.net
Boy if I can get a cool million for my right to vote, how much do you think I can get for my soul? I'm not using either...
The current system is broken and unrepresentative. It's tribal to the extent that a seriously large proportion of the electorate will vote for and vocally defend "their" guy even if he's a corrupt, lawbreaking crook and attack the "other" guy even if he's a saint.
All the while ignoring that neither of them cares for anything other than keeping the profit flowing for themselves and their cronies.
Couple all that with the fact that 50% of the electorate are of below average intelligence anyway and can't be trsted to tie their own shoes let alone decide the future of the country, it seems ever more like a huge waste of time.
I do vote, but if someone offered me a beer not to do it, I'd take the beer.
I gave up my vote, simply for a chance to live and work in Europe.
Overseas votes aren't counted, unless what? There's a tie... ok.
I still vote out of ceremony, but I know full well it is tossed into the garbage can each time.
"anyone who'd sell his lifelong right to vote should be deported."
Now there is the kind of freedom our fore fathers fought for. My way or the highway. Oh my bad, that is what we have in the US.
Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
Why vote?
Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
Jeane Kirkpatrick, Ronald Reagan's onetime ambassador to the UN, was questioned once about the fact that residents of Puerto Rico don't get to vote for U.S. President of have voting representation in Congress, despite being citizens of the US. She said that PR residents also didn't have to pay federal income taxes, which she considered to be a fair trade.
So Republicans think that vote is worth your tax burden, essentially. Maybe we should all agree to stop voting if we didn't have to pay taxes any more?
Even that single seat change wouldn't have amounted to anything as the parliamentary majority was greater that 1.
In the US the Bosh-Gore election of 2000 was the closest ever and the margin in Florida was 500+.
So one person's vote has never changed anything. I expect everyone knows this in their hearts - the variation in "offer price" only reflects what the individuals would expect to get for it
Democracy? hah!
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
The President and a large majority of both houses of Congress have been telling them for six years that the Bill of Rights is an anachronistic impediment to what the USA really stands for.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
In that respect, since on single vote has ever made any difference to a result in any democracy (it does in a dictatorship as only 1 person gets to vote) then a single vote has never been excercised and never will. That makes it worthless.
It's the same paradox as blades of grass on a golf course. Your ball has to land on one, but there are so many, the chances of it landing on any particualr one is as close to zero as you can measure.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
I've looked through a number of the comments on this page, and a lot of the comments run something like this: "My vote doesn't count, and I don't like the candidates anyway, so my vote is for sale."
Honestly, people. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Firstly, this is how a democracy works: A single vote is unlikely to make a difference, but the total of all the single votes does make a difference. (Countries where a single vote does make a difference are called dictatorships, and the single vote is that of the dictator.)
Secondly, in many countries around the world, people a fighting, being tortured and dying to secure the right to vote for their fellow countrymen. We who already have that right should not treat it nonchalantly.
Thirdly, some people seem to think that being callous and cynical about the way one's country is run is a mark of maturity and insight. Not so! In my humble opinion it is highly immature. It is so much easier to be cynical than making an active effort.
That's the real question, what we'd actually do. Unless they actually had people trade their right to vote, they merely found out what people will answer when asked what they would give up their right to vote for. I'm tired of one poll after another taking the place of actual experiments to find out what people really would do, not just what they say.
So how's the gummint gonna pay for itself?
No taxation without representation, remember that one?
"One CAS junior went even further, writing that "anyone who'd sell his lifelong right to vote should be deported.""
... F@#$ OFF! and move to China! We don't F@#$ing want you here you worthless bastard!
F'ing AMEN to that!
My family fought in the Revolutionary war, war of 1812, civl war, and every major war this country has fought. My step-father, my brother and I all served in Operatin Desert Storm. Damit my whole family has fought for the right to vote and it's not for sale!
The problem is the U.S. Government is bought and paid for by big corporations! Someone who wants to -REALLY- change things -can't- get elected. So technically your vote -really- doesn't count - which is a very sad thing.
I think EVERY one that is reading this should be out yelling from roof tops that we need to vote EVERY SINGLE incumbant OUT! They are -ALL- crooks! From Bush to Ron Paul. You can't trust -any- of them.
Take the time to read about how/why our government was formed, understand the real concept of why our government was -ORIGINALLY- founded the way it was. It was originally meant for an average person to go into public service/office for the specific term, work -FOR- the people and in the -BEST INTEREST- of the people. Then when your term was over you went back to your "civilian" life again and let someone else take their turn. It was never meant to be a FRIGGEN career for your whole FRIGGEN life! And it sure as hell wasn't meant to be a wholesale rubber stamp for corporations!
For the folks that are from the U.S. start taking back our government before it's too late, it may already be past that point - who knows. But start telling EVERYONE you know and meet - give them facts - facts about the corruption of our WHOLE government. Tell them we need to as a whole vote against -ALL- incumbants! Send them a STRONG message that we won't put up with their CRAP anymore! The democrats were heavily voted into power in congress but what have they done? a BIG FAT FRIGGEN ZERO! Nothing, Nada. They are as worthless as the republicans. If it was time for a third party to rise up and take power - NOW is the time. I don't care WHO you vote for, but if it's a democrat or republican your voting for more of the same crap!
Think long and hard my friends before you cast your vote... Do you want more of the same or do you want REAL change. And if your considering "selling your vote" - well
The Truth is a Virus!!!
I think all this shows is what people perceive their vote is really worth. All you can really do with your vote is join an effort to throw the bums out. Maybe the next set of bums will be better, but it's usually only a matter of degrees.
A really interesting experiment would be if we allowed US citizens to sell their citizenship to someone else. The deal is once you sell it, you can never get it back. How much would you take to give up your US citizenship forever? That's when we'd find out how serious people really are. It would also give us an idea how the rest of the world views living here.
Would I sell mine? That's a good question. I'm pretty ashamed of the last seven years of US history and shamed by the 25% still supporting a corrupt, incompetent administration. Seeing Bush in a prison cell next to Cheney and Rove, stand a couple telco execs up against the wall for cooperating with the effort to spy on the American public, purge the FBI and Justice Dept. of anyone who used investigative powers toward political ends...the answer might be different. But I don't see that happening.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Your vote is not worth a lot. That is, your specific, individual vote is worth next to nothing. You can influence all of the elections you would have voted on far more with a million dollars than with a single vote.
Of course, the point is that the right to vote is priceless. And if everyone could exchange their right to vote for cash, then suddenly that million dollars would not buy you any influence.
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
It's mostly liberals at NYU anyway. I think it's a great idea. The more liberals that don't vote the better. We can get this country turned around quick.
One *BILLION* dollars (pinky to mouth).
That should be enough for me to hire some good lobbyists to get my ideas passed as laws. Why vote when you can lobby your ideas through?
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Here's one possibility - give up your right to vote in the next election in exchange for a year's NYU tuition. Then, instead of slaving away at some summer job so that you can pay for ramen noodles for the next year, go and work on your campaign of choice. You'll probably be able to do more for your chosen candidate than simply voting for him would.
If you work on a voter advocacy campaign, registering new voters and getting them to the polls on election day, even if you yourself don't vote, aren't you doing more to further democracy? Also getting an education is, I believe, a furtherance of democracy, too.
Ron Paul, at least in my opinion, is one of the few decent politicians we have left. He actually says what he believes, and then consistently votes that way. He also takes virtually no money from lobbying groups. He is running for President in 2008 with the Republican party, although his views are much more in-line with the libertarians. Here is a link to his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul/ views on wikipedia
Right now, my vote counts for exactly nothing. At least with the money I could help my causes financially.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Enough to let me move anywhere else I wanted.
In any political election the probability of your vote tipping the balance, and therefore having any real meaning in the electoral system is so close to zero it is absolutely irrational to assign value to it. For that matter, being within 1 vote in a large election will trigger a recount, which will then end up with a random result due to error. So I'd happily sell my vote for $1. That's likely a good reason it's illegal.
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As an individual, your right to vote is nearly worthless, and anybody saying anything else is rabble-rousing. A million dollars is far overpaying for the right. You, as an individual, cannot make a difference with your vote. If you think you can, I've got a bridge to sell you.
As a population, your right to vote is fairly important. Well, at least the right to vote guarantees that politicians have to say nice things about democracy. What else it guarantees, I'm not so sure.
Wrong. Its not true that the students would give up their right to vote for some amount, its just that they _said_ they would. Given that you cannot give up your right to vote for any amount, the question is meaningless. Voting is secret for a reason - someone could pay you $1,000,000 to vote Demublican but then you go and flip the lever for the Replicrats in the booth.
Easier just to wait until after the election and pay the money to the winning party...
Couple all that with the fact that 50% of the electorate are of below average intelligence anyway and can't be trsted to tie their own shoes let alone decide the future of the country, it seems ever more like a huge waste of time.
A few thoughts about this statement. First, it does not require an average or above average intelligence to tie one's owns shoes. Kindergarteners and individuals with mental retardation manage it all the time. So, it was extreme hyperbole -- fine.
Secondly, it is not obvious that 50 percent of the electorate are below average intelligence. For one thing, the electorate is a self-selecting subset of the general population. Maybe those of above average intelligence are more likely to vote than those of below average intelligence, or maybe the opposite is true. Either way, the average intelligence of the population does not equal the average intelligence of the electorate, unless by coincidence. For another thing, even if you had said that half the population was below average, or that half of the electorate was below the average intelligence of the electorate, it is still just plain wrong.
Suppose my electorate is ten people with the following IQs: (7, 100, 110, 120, 110, 100, 105, 98, 100, 100). The average intelligence of this group is 95, and only 10 percent of the individuals in it are below that average. Maybe you meant the median? Nope -- the median of this group is 100, and only 20 percent of the individuals are below it.
No actually, you don't. Scholarships don't need to be repaid.
I won't vote, so actual "worth" is technically $0.00.
That said, I still technically reserve the "right". I'll gladly give it up for $0.75 presidential, $0.25 other. That's about all the value I see in 1 vote.
Sorry, I'm honest.
From the Article.
"One CAS junior went even further, writing that "anyone who'd sell his lifelong right to vote should be deported."
I'd bet that those people who you were going to deport would be glad to leave after you gave them the cool 1 Million dollars. In some parts of the world you could live like a king on that.
Seriously, I am very surprised there are not already sites on the internet where one can sell their vote.
Effectively they're selling their vote for president in exchange for the ability to buy congressman votes.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Cost of my education throughout graduate school? Sold. Million bucks works too. Seriously, when I vote I feel like I'm voting for Asshole A or Asshole A with a hat.
Get off your sorry ass and run for public office. Get involved in organizing, supporting a candidate that you believe represents your views.
But don't get you dick all bent out of joint if you don't win or once you do win that you can't get anything done. If the majority of elected representatives don't go with your ideas and plans, then that's just how it works. You don't get elected as Dictator.
I'd sell my right to vote in a presidential election for about $0.02 . I live in a winner-take-all state and I know my vote only counts for funding purposes. Luckily the overwhelming majority of people here are pretty liberal and vote for the least of all evils so at least my vote not-counts in a less frustrating manner. If I lived in Ohio I'd probably change my tune.
> Right now, my vote counts for exactly nothing. At least with the money I could help my causes financially.
You've got the right idea. Despite efforts like McCain-Feingold, it seems likely that it will always be the case that money = free speech = votes. The more money you have, the more representation you can purchase. Until strong AI takes over, this doesn't seem likely to change.
Ask me about my sig!
By voting one party or another you make a certain somewhat random, somewhat informed investment: you expect certain profits for your decision, if the party wins you expect they will support your interests and will provide you with certain amount of goods, material or not. Now what kind of goods, what value of them can you expect? You're retired and you expect your pension to be raised? You expect the state to fund the police better, providing you with protection of value equal to service of private security company costing some kind of money, they invest in research that will make your kids' lives better by the amount they'd get if you paid on their accounts... how much is it?
Removing the randomness factor from the profit (what if my vote is wasted on a loser? what if my winner lied to me and did opposite as promised?) is worth a lot of the final percentage, all by itself. Immediate results (getting what is promised now, and not in some distant future) is worth a lot too. Freedom of choice as to what you get with the money given ("I'll spend the money on a better janitor and my kids' education" instead of getting the whole package of what the politician promises) is valuable too. Meaning the expected profits from voting on a certain candidate better be significantly better than what you get right now for not voting, or voting whoever buys your vote, better be really good.
It's not giving up the right to decide about your future. It's a very conscious choice - dropping your right to vote means you agree to whatever others choose and consider the risk costing less than immediate profits. An iPod? That's some $300. I can't count the service of "my" candidate will give me more than $300 worth of profit over leaving the country to "the other".
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
"Show me a candidate that agrees with my position on these 3 issues (even if they disagree with every other political opinion I have) and I'll stop suggesting that I don't have a candidate to vote for who would represent my views."
I'll show you a candidate if you show me a constituent who goes beyond voting in elections.
"No reasonable person is expecting a representative to agree with them 100% of the time. When NO candidates and neither of the political parties agree with me on what I consider to be the most important issues however, it's not "shit" to point out the failures of our voting system and the non-representative duopolistic government.
It's shit if that's ALL you ever do. The problem is that we have a nation of complainers and not a nation of doers. Or at least the doers are the ones others are complaining about. We have a form of government that can only work if people participate. And not on just designated days.
If you're committed to influencing elections, you can probably have more influence on elections, for the rest of your life, with the annual interest on $300,000, than you would with your single vote. And that leaves you $700,000 to play with. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
If you want to really cheat the buyer, sell them your lifetime votes for a million dollars. Then kill yourself. That'll teach 'em.
In essence, citizens have always surrendered their vote in exchange for what they value. It used to be for political/social/moral values, but in today's society the real "value" is (sadly) now an economic one, so their willingness to surrender their vote for an iPod is perfectly logical. It's the way this generation has been brought up, nothing more or less, and certainly not surprising.
This is like asking how much would I pay to murder somebody. This question has no practical application in the real world.
I see you've never been married...
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Go look it up. "Technically" you do not have a right to vote for President in the first place. It was SUPPOSE to be that we the people, voted for the house of representatives, "the peoples house". State legislatures voted for the senators, "the states house". The senators elected the president from among its members. THAT was the way the constitution was written. I wish it would go back that way. But, with the so called popular elections, the person who gets elected is like a stupid American idol contest! Personally, I think some sort of IQ test or means test should be administered. If you are so stupid you can't find things on a map, cannot tell who at least some of your senators or representatives are, cannot name ONE supreme court judge, or something similar, then you have no business voting. If you are so self absorbed that you cannot keep involved with what is going on in your country, then you have no business voting!
It is perfectly logical to be sell your individual right to vote for a large sum of money. One individual's right to vote is worth little other than the warm feeling one gets for taking part in the process. One person's vote is very unlikely to determine the winner of an important election.
What's more valuable is the public's right to vote. I might be willing to sell my own vote, but if everybody sold their right to vote, we would no longer have a representative democracy and tyranny would surely be around the corner.
I would gladly sell my right to vote if a proper sum were offered. But I would strongly oppose allowing anyone else to do the same.
A group chooses it's best and brightest to lead. What does that say for the rest of us. What would my right to vote would cost? The fire of revolution. The death of myself and loved ones. The loss of the pursuit of happiness, and liberty for all. That was the original price to have a society that can vote. In the end that is what my vote would cost. If everyone, lost, sold the right vote what is the price of admission to the new well................. overlords?
Principles aside, 1 million dollars buys more political influence than thousands of votes.
"Seriously, even though corporations have control of our government at the moment, voting is not a right that you can sell or give away."
And what do you think a PAC is? It gets you karma points to spout that party line but the government is influenced not only by corporations but special interest groups which if you know anything can consist of common folks with a common interest. e.g. NOW, Greenpeace, etc. There as even been accusations that some groups are just fronts for foreign countries. So no real life is more complicated than a slashbite would make it appear.
"Vote at the polls, vote by taking action, and vote for yourself as someone who can make our country better."
Living a good clean life can have an influence out of all proportion to time invested. A nation of thieves could never succeed in the long run. Raise future generations right and the investment will pay off.
I am interested. I follow the news of the day and am informed about current political issues. I have belonged to a political party in the past and have volunteered on a number of election campaigns in a variety of capacities.
But I don't vote anymore, and I intend not to in the future. I learned a great deal from my past experiences, but the most important thing I learned is that the political elites have a vested interest in ensuring that the political system serves their own interests, rather than the interests of the citizenry. The best we can hope for is that those interests intersect at some point, but there are no guarantees.
I believe that the act of voting is like playing those games at a carnival. They are subtly rigged in favour of the people who run the carnival. By playing the game, you consent to be taken advantage of.
I do not believe that there are any successful politicians who truly care about the public good.
My own observation is that the people who do care, and get involved for the right reasons are terribly disappointed by the way the political system really works. There is no place for principles and integrity and the most successful politicians are burdened with neither. So, once they get there, those people essentially have two choices: sell out and become part of the system they once vowed to reform, or return to private life and find other ways to contribute to the public good outside of the political system.
Sadly, the reality is that long-term politicians are the least fit to govern. They are petty little power mongers, more interested in looking after their own perceived interests than the interests of those they are supposed to represent.
Ultimately, the voters are to blame. Politicians who make unrealistic promises, are rewarded. We elect politicians who make poor decisions based on short-term political gain with no regard for the long-term consequences of those decisions. Why vote for the candidate who promises no short term benefits but moderate benefits down the line when the other guy is saying we can have our cake and eat it too?
It seems to me the only sensible thing left is to opt out of the system. Perhaps when enough people refuse to participate, there will be a crisis of confidence in the political system and the politicians will be compelled to make changes to improve the system.
Or perhaps not...
Like I said before, I refuse to vote and my hands are completely clean. I am not responsible for who gets elected - that is the fault of the people who did vote. However, I am affected by the decisions those politicians make and that gives me every right to complain.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
In most places if you've been convicted of a felony, you can not vote.
That is what, a CD worth of MP3's today? Being on the wrong side of the War On some Drugs?
My willingness to be a betting man that many of the students are un-convicted felons would make me a felon to be.
Yet, felons still have to pay taxes...*grumble about taxation and representation*
I would give my right to vote for a case of beer, or a free lap dance, maybe for even $1 so I can buy a Diet coke out of the machine at work.
But the joke is on them...I was not planning to vote anyway! HAHAHAHA!
I'd like to see how many of those college students would give up their other Constitutionally protected right, freedom from slavery. Would they take a million dollars in exchange for becoming a slave for about 40 years, until they turned 65 years old? Ten million?
Rights are inalienable. We can't surrender them, though sometimes we can suffer their infringement. The more temporary the infringement, the more voluntary, the more we can suffer it. But any infringement pressures people in a way that inevitably becomes intolerable, and we don't tolerate it. That's why we create governments to protect those rights. Because not only our rights, but the rights of everyone around us, are infringed only at a much greater cost, even if it can sometimes be postponed.
--
make install -not war
Classes are near empty at NYU after the majority of students were arrested for offering to sell their votes.
Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
patting yourself on the back
But I think giving up your right to vote is disgusting.
I think judging people by their free choice to not participate in a completely ineffectual means of bringing about positive change is disgusting.
Back when voting made a difference, giving up that right was a problem. Today, your options are too carefully whittled down for a choice between them to make any difference.
If you want laws changed, lobby. That is what works. All else is just posturing.
...than all the votes cast by a single voter in their lifetime.
Some of the NYU students earn a gold star in both reality and non-financial economic analysis.
"A few would be willing to give up the right for the rest of their lives for one million dollars."
It would give me enormous pleasure to become a front-line member of the (unelected) government with the primary responsibility for enforcing a brand new $1,000,000 stupidity tax on their pathetic asses. Capital punishment, promptly and efficiently administered, to those who failed to comply.
And two thirds would give up their right to vote even once (assuming, apparently, that somebody would give it back to them)? This is what happens when you fight a war without instituting a draft. These rancid little creeps might have a different view if their vote could determine whether the pathetic weenies had to do a little bleeding and dying in some Third World swamp.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I'd like to put my vote on eBay and sell off parts of it in a conditional game. That is, if 'x' gets more than a given % of the vote then I will vote for candidate 'y' or bill 'z'. And since there's always more than one election going on I should be able to sell my votes to different races.
From Rational Choice Theory you can calculate how much a vote is worth for you (assuming that you are rational):
http://wikisum.com/w/Riker_and_Ordeshook:_A_theory_of_the_calculus_of_voting
This is like asking "How much for your musical talent?" or "I'll buy that feeling of love for $1 million."
Not everything can be exchanged between people (i.e. bought and sold), freedoms and rights should be unexchangeable.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
A few would be willing to give up the right for the rest of their lives for one million dollars."
:-P
My price is $2 million. I could retire to Belize and not give a shit what the Mental Institution (read: government) does. With the investment income from that I could afford to have a stable of whores who get regular medical checkups.
Yes, that's all I care about at this point: retirement and whores. I blame society for giving me anything better to care about.
Although I do have a good net worth of my own now in the upper half of six digits, so I might take the one mil is that was the final offer.
So... who's offering?
These kids are more right than they think. Because they're in New York, their individual vote is worth approximately nothing. In the 2004 election, 60% of New Yorkers voted for Kerry. With their own senator on the ballot, there's a good chance that number will go up. The votes of a few thousand college kids aren't going to make a bit of difference. New York's votes in the electoral college will go to the Democratic candidate. The iPod is a good deal; the scholarship is a GREAT deal.
Of course, if I didn't have to work, I could become a full time campaigner and influence millions of votes.
It's worth about 5% of my salary or the amount which democrats would raise taxes. *I made 5% up but it's still funny
"I prefer to vote with my dollars, the only real form of voting."
Illegal copyright violators are giving away that vote even.
Well, maybe not to the extreme of making people go thru military services to earn the right to vote, but at least revoke the right of those who agreed to give up their right to vote. As a newly naturalized citizen, the price i paid to vote is years of immigration processes and interview and I am gonna damn make sure I get my vote in when the time comes.
I'm sure the right to vote is included in there.
But wait, act now and we'll double your freedom for the same low price!
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course...
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!
Churchill: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
I'll second that. Kucinich rocks. Ron Paul is a bigot whose big new idea is to dismantle government. Just like the neo-cons, except that he actually means all of government, not just the parts that don't benefit the rich. At least he's fair, but I'd rather pay for social programs than have hordes of poor, hungry, desperate people eying me enviously. If everyone else is better off, there will be more opportunities for me.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Actually, you can't give up your right to vote, because not voting is a type of voting; you are voting for the status quo.
In effect, by not voting, you are saying, "I am happy with the status quo", there are no issues I really care about. In a way, that is a testimony to the wonderful job the government is doing; most of the population considers the government "background noise", irrelevant to their daily lives, which is an excellent place for a democratic government to be.
In this thread, we hear a lot about differences between leaders, either in Congress, or in the Executive branch. But the leaders are not the ones who really decide what laws get enforced, and what direction society goes in.
Kennedy Kasselbaum (HIPPA) or Sarbanes Oxley? The first spawned a nice black market in medical records for debt collectors looking to locate people, and the second was just another way for accounting and consulting firms to siphon money from stockholders. The fact is, Congress passes laws and the bureaucracy and the private sector ignore, them, or interpret them to do the exact opposite. Even if someone in congress wanted to make a real change in society, by the time it got past the hundreds of others, it would be watered down to a meaningless gesture. Look at the records of the number of bills that die before getting voted on, for example.
The same is true for the leaders in the Executive branch. Do you really think that Bush is continuing the Iraq war all by himself? Look at his approval rating. he doesn't have that kind of personal support. It isn't even Bush plus the Senators that are blocking the Iraq withdrawal bill passed yesterday. It is the infrastructure, the social network behind them that pushing the war (for entirely different reasons than the ones stated publicly, by the way). That social network is not voters, with voting percentages so low, voters are ignorable. As long as you can buy enough media time, the job is yours, is the current thinking. No, that social network is members of the bureaucracy (mostly State and Defense) and the complex network of obligations and favors they are embedded in that are the real force behind the decisions.
And, counterintuitive as it may seem, that is the system working exactly as it was designed to do, to resist short term fads but adapt to long term trends. It is obvious by now, that the US will get out of Iraq, although the exact date is uncertain. That is because it is obvious that the majority of the American public wants it, not because of a one time vote, however nationwide.
When I was young, a half century ago, many minorities did not have full citizenship; I remember how Blacks were treated, and gangs hunting Jews for sport in my neighborhood. Now we have Barack Obama as a legitimate candidate for president, and I have run into only two serious antisemites in many years.
That took decades of Americans working toward the world they wanted to become, not instantaneously upon the passage of Title 7.
And that is why votes are not important. They have no real power. The real vote is the one you make every day, to strive in your everyday behaviour as though you were living in the world you would vote to create. Because that is the only way that world is ever going to materialize, just look at prohibition for an example of what happens when a vote doesn't match what people want.
And, in the end, thats why America works, and why we should be so proud of it. Because we do not need to pull a lever in order to make a dream of a better world come true. We don't need revolutions to make changes to what we are. All we really need to do is want to make it happen, and those levers pull themselves, sooner or later.
There is no denying we, as a people, still have many flaws and inequities. But when you look at how far we have come, in so short a time, you cannot deny that we must be doing something right.
So don't worry about whether those students would give up the right to vote, worry about what sort of world they want to live in, because voting or not, thats the world they (and us) WILL be living in.
If there are people like this voting (or at least able to vote right now), I don't I'd ever sell my vote.
Why would Ron Paul pay people to post on Slashdot? There's enough of us supporting him here that we'll post about how awesome he is for free!
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
It might be wise to take the million. There is an argument out there for non-voting being the rational decision. Please see Rational Choice Theory.
the point is we're supposed to ignore that $1 million dollars will make a much larger differences to our lives than whether or not we vote,
;-)? Households with a worth of $1M are merely upper-middle class. $1M would only DRAMATICALLY change the lives of half the population.
Only if a handful of people took up the offer would this statement be true. If a thousand or more voters did this, in a close election as Bush fought in 2000, it has a more profound effect than $1M would ever have. It might affect our own life less, but it would re-shape the nation as a whole. Could you imagine if Gore went to Florida in 2000 and gave away a couple thousand Prius cars to Republicans in exchange for forfeiting their right to vote? I'd have to say the whole world would've noticed the difference.
If every voting citizen was given $1M in exchange for eternally being denied the vote, then I'd have to disagree. The loss of voting rights would probably have a far more important and dramatic affect on our lives than having a million dollars. Loss of any sorts of freedom or rights would not be worth $1M. Wealth certainly hasn't helped legal professionals and media execs in Pakistan for example.
Besides, since when is $1M a lot of money these days (especially in US$
One hundred English pounds!!
NO!! Too much!
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
A few million are willing to give up their right to vote for representatives in exchange for living in Washington, DC.
I like Ron Paul too. However, his push towards small government would eliminate every single government support program. I think some of them, while bloated, are needed. Federal tuition assistance programs, programs sponsoring the arts and science, Medicare, the CIA. Completely ditching some of these concerns me.
He has used CIA intelligence to justify his position, but he then says that he would eliminate the agency.
I think the people who make the claims you discussed are just looking for justification for their apathy. I doubt any of them have done the hard work of electing a worthy candidate, or even tried. It's not easy to change something as big as government, so they use the "both sides are the same evil blah blah blah" as an excuse to avoid actually doing something.
And honestly, I think some of them just like to bitch and display how they're opposed to "the man".
In 2004, I gave up my right to vote in an overwhelmingly blue state in order to work on a get out the vote campaign in Ohio. The job opened up at the last minute, and I wasn't able to get my absentee voter registration in on time (I don't remember if I had actually missed the deadline, or if I just didn't have my shit together). At the time, I certainly appreciated the irony of the situation, but I never had any doubts that I was doing the right thing and participating more, rather than less, in the democratic process.
So, I'm not saying that any of the NYU kids saw things this way, but if offered the legal chance to sell my vote for $1 million (whether actually selling the vote or merely not voting), I would definitely take the offer. I'd put a large part of the money towards a campaign, and use much of the rest to support an unpaid leave from my job so I could personally do campaign work.
If you commit a felony, you can't vote.
Is that REALLY an effective deterrent or punishment?
It is a good way to disenfrancise folks tho, considering the relative chances, historically, of a white man vs. a black man of getting a felony conviction for the same action.
As the number of voters decreases, the impact of the individual vote increases. If I can find a way to get most people to stay home glued to their free iPod, then my friends and I can walk right down the polling place and elect ourselves into whatever office we choose.
Perhaps the ruling two party system already figured it out. They just get people to stay home by bombarding them with political garbage to the point of nausea. Then their buddies go and cast straight tickets. Oops, looks like this plan is already firmly in place.
The right to vote should not force you to vote for a candidate you do not want. The way the system is set up now many voters are forced to choose a 'lesser of two evils' candidate. So shouldn't there be an "Abstain" vote on the ballot? It's fairly common in votes outside politics, takes away peoples excuse that "there was no one I liked", and a large abstain vote should send a powerful message to our politicians. Much like publicly funded elections though, it's not like sensible voting reform is going to happen anytime soon.
I'd sell my voting rights for USD 1,000,000. There's no problem if only I do it. The problem would be if everyone did. However since no one has USD 300,000,000,000,000 there would have be a lot of variation in compensation. I don't think such compensation is tenable, so no worries.
A million dollars would enable me to make a number of investments that would benefit my entire life, and if I happened to dislike this country I could just leave and earn citizenship in another.
The thing to keep in mind is that in most districts either (a) the party you want to win will win every time (b) the party that you consider less evil, even though you would prefer a third-party candidate, will win every time (c) you will be completely oppressed by the mob, and forced to live under the representation you desire the least. Your one vote is statistically insignificant, because it is well below the margin of error for counting, so it's only in contrived thought games that you have to worry about OMG MY ONE VOTE WAS SOLD.
A lot of things are like that. If everyone engaged in copyright infringement there would be much less incentive for our creative entertainment, and it would dry up significantly because there would be very little to no money in it. However as long as enough people participate as expected the free-riding can be supported with little discomfort. Well the same would work for selling your ability to vote.
In fact it would probably be retarded not to sell your vote for USD 1,000,000. However principled retards are exactly what would enable me to enjoy a higher standard of living without fear of any worse government than the disastrous U.S. government of today.
Your vote wasn't "worthless" when Texas came up with LBJ and voted dem primarily until the 80s. Keep it in a little bit of historical perspective. Heck, there's debate if anyone's vote counted back then, anyway.
Gerald Ford wan't voted into office; he was appointed Vice President when Nixon's first VP, Spiro Agnew, went to prison. He succeeded Nixon when Nixon resigned. He was our history's only appointed President.
He was soundly trounced by Jimmy Carter. I never thought I'd ever see a worse President than Carter, but George Bush managed educate me about that little fallacy.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I figure $100m is the magic number. I would immediately leave the country and temporarily put all the money in gold (the universal currency). That would be enough money to buy a large chunk of land and the right to sovereignty over it from some country that needs money, acquire some military hardware on the global arms market, and live freely for the rest of my life. Under those circumstances, the right to vote in my current country of residence is pretty much irrelevant, and in fact my vote in my new home would be worth far more as it would be the only one. It's a no-brainer.
Of course, if I had to value my vote as a rational economic actor, I'd probably give it up forever for about $1k. The probability that my vote will affect who wins any office is zero (I have never voted for a major-party candidate for any office and, at the rate things are going, never will). So all that's left is my vote on ballot questions; even at the local level there are often 100k votes cast, so the likelihood that my vote will be decisive is very low. And the actual difference to me (in taxes, services, whatever) of any single question is probably no more than a few hundred thousand dollars. So even $1k per lifetime is probably too high. I wonder what Lloyd's would charge me for "political insurance" - a policy that would protect me against loss of income, wealth, or material liberty due to political change or unlawful act of government - seems that it ought to be the number of voters times the present value of my vote divided by 2. This is sufficiently interesting to justify a trip to the library. Surely some economist has written a paper on it.
Yes, I would fight to the death to keep my right to vote. It's one of the fundamental, founding rights and responsibilities of U.S. citizens, and I will fight to the death to preserve it. And to those who would sell out, maybe you should take some of what you make and buy a one-way ticket the hell outa here.
My right to vote is worth the lives of every US politician.
*cracks knuckles threateningly*
*My* right to vote in one election? I'd trade that for enough money to sway someone else's vote. Changing someone else's mind is worth twice as much as actually placing a vote, and the price of tuition these days is likely enough to swing several backing the right message.
The right of people generally to vote in the next election? No bloody way.
$1 million dollars invested to produce even a rather miserable 2.5% return would give you $25,000 a year. Assuming that was entirely devoted to political activism (campaign donations, independent expenditures, etc.), I would think it'd produce substantially more effect than the one average voter. So, really, even looked at from an "concerned citizen" standpoint, it seems rational under the status quo system.
While for western countries this might be more of an entertaining acadamic excercise, this (give your vote away for money) is applied in some countries. IIRC the oil rich nations of Saudi Arabia, Kuweit and the Emirates are among them. The ruling class (monarchs) offer a wide range of financial benefits in exchange for not challenging their rule.
Because of the EC if I lived in NY I would give up my right to vote for a doughnut and a good cup of coffee (at lest in 2008). The Dem candidate is going to win the state, it matters not whom is it. The senate seat will go D if Hillary wins the presidency, house districts are seldom competitive (D or R). I suppose if there were a local election which was competitive I might feel differently.
But if you live in a Florida, Ohio, PA My vote is worth more than my life.
Maybe the fact you can't find a candidate who represents you says more about the reality of your positions than it does about the political system?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
In my opinion, voting for either a Democrat or Republican in a national election, at this point in time, is equivalent to a vote for the "status quo" of corruption in our "democratic system".
.... but the more votes are cast for folks like him, the more of a "wake up call" is sent to whoever DOES win that some people out there are really unhappy with the current state of affairs. They're going to start asking "How can *I* win those people over when I'm up for re-election?" and it might cause some useful change.
On the OTHER hand, rather than abstaining from voting (and having your "voice" be completely ignored), you could vote for an independent candidate. I know I'm casting a vote for Ron Paul, this election year, if at all possible. It's obvious he's not a candidate who advocates leaving the current systems in place and functional "the way we've always done it". Does he have a chance of actually winning? Well, probably not
I was born and raised in the UK and had the right to vote from the age of 18. I never really took advantage of it. Seemed too much hassle having to go to the polling booths to check a box. A couple of years ago I emmigrated to the US. I did this the leagl way and am now classed as a legal permanent resident. Sadly the state I am in only allows voting by US citizens not US residents. This has given me a new appreciation of what a gift that right is and why the founding fathers were willing to give their lives for it.
Your vote is your voice, regardless of how pessimistic you might be (I know I am), so cherish it. You might not appreciate it today but you never know whats going to happen tommorrow.
Be gone from my sight or prepare to feel my flaming wraith!
This article has made headlines by avoiding the real issue of influence.
People want influence and voting is a very round-a-bout way of getting it. A million dollars on the other hand isn't that much money, but it has far greater utility than my vote. As mentioned in the article, some people will sell their vote for an iPod. A million dollars buys many iPods, so in a way it's stupid not to sell your voting rights for a million dollars and the ability to buy many more votes.
It's also a "prisoner's dilemma" problem. It really doesn't matter if I sell my vote. When I start running into trouble is when all my friends (people who have similar views as me) also sell their votes. Then the collective effect matters.
Personally, I'll hold on to my vote (or at least my price is really high), but that trait is influenced by my beliefs, and not based on an assessment of what's really best.
T.J. was a deist, if that. Please stop the mythmaking about our founders being Christians, it just fuels the wackaloons who want to turn America into a theocracy.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
I would happily sell my vote. In the U.S. a vote is worthless, but I could use the money to help the politician I prefer stay ahead of his competitors.
Unfortunately there are no politicians I prefer, so I could hold the money in trust until one shows up with an interest in providing leadership.
It took me a little while to understand what you were getting at, but it's something I've concluded as well: if you really, truly want to change something, don't bother voting. Don't even bother getting elected to office. Instead, get rich and buy your own politician. It's much cheaper than running for president, and you have the benefit of not having to worry about re-election.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Then I would take the money and finance my own election :-)
How much is the right to vote worth vs. the right to participate in the political system? The latter is priceless. The former is negotiable.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I will more than likely abstain from voting because I think it is a waste of time. Does that mean I don't have a voice? No, because I contribute money to places that echo my views, like Mises.org and LewRockwell. And despite my non voting stance, I even contributed money to Ron Paul's campaign, only because he's got it closer than anyone else who's running. My money, though it's not much, will do more than my voting ever will.
You are aware that General Howe wrote in his diary about his sympathies for the colonists, right? Most of the other British Generals know, respected, and sympathized with the economic and political injustices in the colonies (Burgoyne was an exception and note that Howe withheld military support for Burgoyne against direct orders from the crown).
In the American revolution there were two sides: The British Crown, and almost everyone in the colonies (British military included). Believe it or not it was fought as a gentleman's war on both sides (Washington making arrangements with Howe to return captured Masonic regalia, for example).
The real cause of the American revolution was simple. British subjects in the American colonies were being denied basic political and economic rights which were afforded British subjects living in England. These included a right to trial by jury, a right to be represented in tax decisions, various economic controls, and the like. The Declaration of Independence documents these problems well (and seems particularly relevant today under the Administration of President George III). And the Bill of Rights, with a few exception, is based largely on the rights that British subjects in England were granted.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
If people will sell their vote for an iPod, then giving up my vote for one doesn't mean I can't vote. It just means that I have an iPod between now and the election, when I can trade it to someone else for *their* vote. :) Try to think like an American!
Besides, even at a philosophical level this makes perfect sense, at least at the million dollar level. The only thing we can hope for from government anyway is physical and financial security, and a million bucks buys a lot more security than the "right" candidate. So for a million bucks you'd be an idiot not to take it. Besides, as many others have pointed out here the money can buy far more than your own vote back. Properly invested and spent on political action for the rest of your life, it could allow you to have thousands of times the impact that merely voting would have.
You're so right on so many levels.
Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
I guess this is a move toward the "Bread and Circuses" or "Right to Vote" debate as happened in the Roman Republic
... and people will want their bread and circuses, obviously enough.
What cost Tyranny?
I can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet. The United States Electoral College is who votes for president. My vote doesn't count for the presidential election, and neither does yours. So hell yes I'll sell it.
See, I'd like to make all of this more visceral. Here's the plan: when you're born, you get one share of "Ameristock". When you turn 18, you can show your Ameristock certificate at the voting booth and you get to vote - until then your parents may act on your behalf.
Ameristock shares are 100% transferable - once the original owner reaches 18 - and can be traded for real currency (for a bookkeeping transfer fee). Citizenship is not a prerequisite for owning shares - anyone can! Each share is worth one vote, and there is no limit to the number of shares which can be controlled by a person or entity.
Need cash? Sell your share. Want more political power? Buy more shares!
The end result would be about the same as it is now, but hey, at least everyone would know what their vote is worth. I call this plan "Americockracy".
Remember, If Democracy worked, it would be illegal.
You might want to check your logic. Ron Paul is a Republican.
What's the conversion rate for 1 x 10^6 US Dollars to Papiermark?
In my opinion, voting for either a Democrat or Republican in a national election, at this point in time, is equivalent to a vote for the "status quo" of corruption in our "democratic system".
I'll be voting for the party that is *not* trying to remove the judicial branch as a significant part of the government. If it weren't for that, yes, I might be looking at minor parties.
Yeah, um... Ron Paul is a Republican. Looks like you're supporting corruption.
If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong. If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without spending the enormous amount of time on it that a truly intelligent exercise of franchise requires.
More importantly in the case of Puerto Rico, the majority there considers it a fair trade. They had the chance to vote on whether they wanted to keep their current status, become independent, or go for statehood. Three times they chose to continue to keep their current status. I suspect they will have further votes in the future until statehood or independence wins, because the US govt would really like to get the tax money.
He isn't a bigot. He has recently been gaining a little traction in the campaign, and that has provoked an avalanche of slander (slanderlanche?). It's mostly online right now, but it will definitely be showing up on TV and in newspaper columns/editorial pages soon. Look out for some seriously flawed guilt-by-association in the coming weeks. I'm sure a very incomplete list of his votes is being taken out of context with great care in order to smear him as I write this, unless some misguided zealot has already done it. Finally, expect any statements made by the presidential campaign to be ignored by the intellectually dishonest perpetrators of the smear job.
I also honestly don't know (I can only assume) how many others feel this way (I simply don't talk about this kind of thing on a day to day basis), but I am taking the first step (I don't know if its the right one) to "register to vote" in MA (I don't know if this is even the right thing to do considering I am never in MA!!). Anyways, to do the same as me and instructions for doing so can be found at: http://www.vote-smart.org/
After that, my plan of action is as follows:
1) Read about the current officials in MA and see what writers are saying about them.
2) Determine my egibility to vote in various elections: primaries, presidential...etc because honestly (and I don't mind saying here in this forum) I don't know anything about the election process other than the presidential election process.
3) Continue to research potential and current officials.
4) Vote in all election processes that become available to me.
How does that sound? Anyone else in the same or similiar boat? My high school didn't teach me any of this stuff (...?) and at least should have had me reinforce a plan of action on how to vote and stay informed on politics..... cause God knows I am informed on other things (...not be mentioned).
Even you have have no chance of winning voting still can help your cause, in several ways and by refraining from what is a very simple and painless activity, you are giving up some very useful opportunities to help you cause.
You have to recognize this on some level or you wouldn't be giving money to Ron Paul. After all, what is he going to be using that money for than to try and convince people to vote for him? While persuading public opinion will be the main positive effect of his campaign, the rest of the political system will never change in that direction, until the people who he has persuaded are willing to act on it. That includes you.
Third party and outlying candidates getting votes in the polls can absolutely affect the behavior of the major party candidates. I saw that first hand with Montragon's run for Governor of New Mexico as a Green party candidate. Environmentalists/Progressives had been talking about the same ideas for years, but it was his good turn-out in the election that created the political momentum for it to actually happen.
Secondly, many states have ballot access rules that rely on voter turn-out in the presidential and gubernatorial elections. By choosing to vote Libertarian in the presidential election, you could help push that number over 5% which would make it far easier for them to get candidates on the ballot in local elections. Having even a single LP member in a city council or county position can do quite a bit of good. The chance that spending a measly half hour to cast a token vote could potentially save LP members from literally hundreds of thousands of hours of gathering signatures, makes the choice pretty damn easy for me. That is something that no amount of money I have would be able to do.
The little bit of time you save, you did on the backs of everyone around you. The system only works if people vote. The less people vote, the less our elected representatives feel the need to do their jobs correctly. Your "stance" isn't heroic, it's just harmful, and it's basically what the Ds & Rs want you to do. They want their diehards to support them, they want everyone who thinks critically to get out of the way. If everyone who felt like voting doesn't do anything voted for a third party candidate, or wrote someone in, it'd put the fear of God into these guys. I guess it just isn't gonna happen, though.
with very great painful regret for USAll.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Although I agree with you, it's a little too late for someone my age to infiltrate the corrupt and tyrannical system that now exists and change it from the inside. People who want to do that need to be about 16 right now, I am many decades older than that and already have a record.
It's pretty clear that we've already seen the closest thing to a clean election that will occur in the USA in my lifetime.
If you are over 35, I recommend to you the Remington Model 870 and a gransfors-bruks axe sized appropriately to your build. Multi-purpose tools that you won't regret having 20 years from now. Oh, and adopt as many children as you can afford to; we need people like you to propagate your belief system and adoption is even better for the world than direct genetic reproduction.
If you are between 20 and 35, well, your generation is a bunch of ipod-obsessed weaklings who deserve any system they aren't revolting against, and you have my sympathies.
If you are under 20, start practicing your goose-stepping and join the tyrants. Eventually you might get close enough to power to do something meaningful, if you can keep your mind free from all the conditioning...
Replied; Rueddy and Hillarity for POTUS!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Ummmm... Do you know how money is issued? Do you know how the economy works?? If people do not get loans, our economy would come to a grinding halt. We ARE loan slaves, we need to move away from the current system of money.
Take the $1 million, and invest it. Assuming a conservative 5% return, take the $50,000 per year, or $200,000 per presidential cycle, and make 6-figure donations to select candidates. That should be enough to buy you a few minutes of face time with an aspiring president, and a suitable amount of groveling from his cadre of cash-hungry fund-raisers when the party machine sweeps through town. I dare say that would add up to a hell of a lot more political influence than one measly vote.
it is all about Corporatist inflation.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
The sad truth is that $1,000,000 will buy you a lot more representation than voting will. You could donate the maximum $2,000 to 500 candidates, or of course donate more to PACs for fewer candidates and issues. So if the goal is to have your voice heard, taking the money would make a lot more sense. For the same reason, getting a free ride at college in exchange for skipping a single election cycle would be a no-brainer.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Quite honestly, I think it may not matter whether people vote or not. Under democracy, issues that take wise men years to even understand are decided on the basis of whose 3 second slogan sounds better.
That might have worked in ancient Greece and in the homogenous , slow changing world of 18th century America, but today, it's just not good enough. We need something better, probably a form of technocracy at the national level.
College students are too immature and inexperienced to make these decisions. Draft them, then ask their opinion.
The high costs of education is the result of government loans. This creates increased demand for education where the expense is initially paid for by a 3rd party. The net result is that the universities can charge more because they know that people can and will borrow more and more to pay for an education. Traditionally an individual would have to be both willing and able to pay of a debt in order to get a loan. With government intervention they have removed the "able" requirement by lending tax payers money and preventing discharge in the event of bankruptcy.
In a most ironic way, the governments attempt to help students get an education has saddled them with much more debt than they would other wise incur through private education loans or scholarships.
The right to vote should be illegal to sell because it is the same as selling you and your fellow man in to the slavery of those with the most money. It sells you into slavery because with government power they can turn around and steal the money they paid you. It sells your fellow man into slavery because it dilutes the free opinion of the masses by giving a greater weight to those with money.
While failure to vote may be similar to selling your vote it is less evil than picking a side or making an uninformed vote (probably greatly influenced by media bias than real facts).
You vote everyday with your checkbook. So yes, 1 million dollars is a powerful option in terms of who and what you spend that money on. Certainly more powerful than a vote.
I think people *should* have the right to give up their vote. More to the point, I think people should be able to sign their vote over to a specialist on matters pertaining to that particular subject. I might not be interested in the healthcare system for whatever reason, but I might know somebody who I trust to whom I could hand my vote on matters regarding healthcare. I'd also have the option of allowing that person of passing my vote on to somebody he/she trusted, so that votes can be pooled and develop a sort of collective bargaining power.
My whole point is that Democracy doesn't work in the first place. At least, not in the way most people claim. My stance isn't harmful. The people who continue voting scum into office are the ones who are harming me. Even if I do cast a vote, the odds that it will prevent a scumbag from being elected are zero.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Was wrong with socialism?
:) (Not that I'd generally let my religion affect my political opinion)
Socialism is a beautiful philosophy, there's nothing wrong with that... There's an implementation of socialism called communism, which we as mankind have had some bad experiences with previously... But that doesn't mean that socialism is bad or liberalsocialism.
America needs to grow up, you not at cold war anymore... And while you were all the Europeans were running half socialist countries, and still is... (I know, I live in Denmark and it's good).
Philosophically I believe we as a society have a responsibility to the poorest and weakest in our society. And by the way that matches my Christian religion pretty too
I just don't understand why Americans fear socialism so much. In Denmark we have a communistic party and a few socialistic parties, we just had an election and a little less than half the population voted for a red party (one of the socialistic parties). And just for the record the blue parties in Denmark aren't that blue; if they'd even talk about cutting down the educational support they'd be out of office in no time.
And just for the record, even though the taxes in Denmark are roughly fifty/fifty the economy is great.
- So tell me what's wrong with something being socialistic or liberalsocialistic?
Voting is not compulsory in Australia! Attendance on polling day is. What you do once you get in the booth is entirely your business. You may vote, or you may draw a pretty picture of a cow on your ballot. You may even right out 100 times "I don't have a basic understanding of my electoral rights" if it gives you the jollies.
Ron Paul is a Republican. After 7 years of the Bush and Dead-Eye Dick, NO Republican will ever get my vote.
I do hope he sucks votes from whatever potential candidate the Repugnicants nominate. That would be nice.
Obama '08
Jim Lyons
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
http://eburgobama08.org/
"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair" - George Washington
I'd happily sell my permanent right to vote for $10k, and only for that much because it means I can't sell the right again, even if the value of that right goes up. I don't need 10k for anything, but if you can sell something that you consider worthless, why not? So.. if anyone wants it, let me know. I'll happily vote for anyone you demand. I just go along and spoil ballots as it is now, so I'm not fussy.
I view this as one of those topics that is rather meaningless as a survey, rather like "Would you kick a small, defenseless kitten for a sum of money?" People can say whatever they want, but unless they are actually at a point where they have to commit, it may not be what they would actually do.
Now if you were to stand there with legal papers for people to sign that gave away their right to vote in the next election and guaranteed them a one year scholarship to NYU upon signing, then I'm fairly certain you'd get different results. (I imagine you'd get different results in different years, too, depending on the candidates who were running and what state you were in. Fairly certain your candidate was going to win? Live in a state that is dominated by one party? I could see people deciding to go for the scholarship. It would be a much more difficult choice in a hotly contested state... or giving up the right to vote for life as opposed to one election.)
I don't disagree that just going in places like the DMV gives you that "evil, big brother is here" feeling. But ultimately, what's the "end goal" of your anarchist stance? Once the current system of government is overthrown by force, what do you foresee replacing it that will be so much better than people trying to fix the current system?
Anarchy doesn't really strike me as being a "political position" as much as it's a temporary state that usually exists during the transition of government from one form to another.
It seems to me, the Libertarian party is exactly who you want to get out and cast a vote for, since they're generally working under the premise of dismantling anything in federal government that's unnecessary, and valuing individual rights and freedoms above all else. If you simply want "anarchy, because anything has to be better than this!", I'd say you're taking a HUGE risk that you'll actually end up with a worse outcome than before your revolution happened. That's usually what's happened in other countries of the world, if you ask me.
"Please stop the mythmaking about our founders being Christians, it just fuels the wackaloons who want to turn America into a theocracy."
Or just fuel the wackaloons who want to get religion out of the country, but that's a whole argument for another day. Anyway we had more than one founder and not all were deists.
what its purchaser will pay for.
I do like the "If everybody ..." arguments. Of course, if everybody who doesn't currently vote, voted for some candidate there'd be an effect.
On the other hand, if everybody who does currently vote, didn't, there'd be another effect. For one, I'd vote. Because it might actually mean something.
But the people who don't vote aren't going to start en masse. And those who do aren't going to stop en masse. So the "if everybody" stuff is a rather pointless assertion to make.
I don't expect morality, equality, consistency, or justice from the law. I expect only legality.
Say $50 a year inflation adjusted revokable in case one day there are parties worth voting for
A Constitutional "right" to vote.
It's a perfect time for being wasted.
A perfect time to watch the stars.
- Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Its WAY cheaper to just way till the congressfool gets elected and THEN purchase him.
Seriously, simple economics, folks.
To boldly use to and too two times and get it right too! They're not gonna believe their eyes when they see it there!
These students need to live somewhere where they can really vote on large sums of money. In March, I voted on a $750 million dollar bond issue. There were 80 people who voted out of the 300 eligible. The margin of victory was 30 votes. You just have to love California school bond issues.
Is that the price you set for your freedom ?
The right to vote gives you the power to change things every x years. It enables the people to get rid of tyrants or leaders they are not willing to follow. An ipod or even a million dollars is very cheap to give away that power.
I basically agree with all that. The thing is, if corps (and others) couldn't buy legislation, then the system would be working in the "one man, one vote" sense. If that were the case, selling my right to vote would make less economic sense since, individually, my right to vote becomes far more valuable. Instead of using money to influence big, national political issues, I could more profitably use my time, vote, and limited financial resources to influence something very important but closer to home. School board elections, for example, are hugely important. And those are the kinds of elections where, quite literally, a single person who actively goes out and talks to people (either to get elected or in support of a candidate) can sway enough votes to change the outcome of an election. That's amazing and wonderful. I'd love to do that and I would if I weren't so disenchanted with the whole process, if I weren't gripped by the paralyzing sense that no matter what I do at any political level, big moneyed interests on a national scale can sweep it all away after a single closed-door meeting to decide strategy.
As an aside, your observation about corps representing incorrectly the interests of their employees is off base. Corps, unions, special interest groups, and pretty much all large organizations lobby in favor of the interests of their investors. Supposedly, what's good for a big corp is good for their investors. It may be terrible for employees, but who gives a crap about them? (Unions, theoretically, but that's a whole 'nother discussion that could go on for pages.)
"Suppose my electorate is ten people with the following IQs: (7, 100, 110, 120, 110, 100, 105, 98, 100, 100)."
And that's where you fail. Intelligence within a population is usually modeled as a normal curve. Due to the large numbers of people involved the case of extreme sqewing you present is very very unlikely.
Frankly I don't trust the political opinions of most people over the average intelligence either. Their all too willing to vote for the one that looks trustworthy. Humans are dumb, tribal animals.
By the numbers, NYU students aren't appreciably less dedicated than the rest of us. At least they demanded something of value for their unvote! Lots of us skip elections all the time and we receive nothing in return.
66 - percentage of NYU students who would trade one vote for a ~$140,000 scholarship
50 - percentage of NYU students who would trade ALL votes for $1,000,000
45 - percentage of eligible voters who traded their 2004 vote for nothing (i.e., they didn't vote)
20 - percentage of NYU students who would trade one vote for a $300 iPod
There are two things TFA could have done, but didn't, to provide some newsworthy insight: (1) what percentage of NYU students who actually voted in the last election would trade a vote for money? (2) What price is a non-voter's non-vote worth to them? That is, how much would it take to get non-voters to vote?
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
I've set up a poll based on your question here. So far voting is in the lead.
An author who's name escapes me said that Canadians are often described as 'nicer versions of Americans'. He, (being a proud Canadian Nationalist) said maybe another way of looking at it is to describe Americans as "Canadians in a hurry".
The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
"And, no one says college is a right."
No, but didn't most of the founding fathers, especially Jefferson, feel that an educated population was essential for democracy to function?
Also, can't one make an argument that society as a whole benefits by having most people be better educated?
"reap the benefits of serving in the Army to finance your way through college, like I did."
Benefits like what, Post-traumatic-stress disorder? I'm curious, was there a war on when you did this?
What about those of us who are medically unfit for serving in the army? I guess if they weren't born rich, they get to spend their whole life flipping burgers?
"Yes, the X and millenial gen kids never had it so good."
Um, compared to what, exactly? When my dad graduated university with a Bachelor's degree, (chemistry) major employers were lining up to hire him. When a friend of mine's mother graduated journalism school, major news outlets were competing for who gets to hire the grads. These days, your average j-school grad is temping in an office if they're lucky.
When my dad was my age, (early 30's), he had been a homeowner for several years. This was normal, not exceptional, and he came from a lower-middle-class background. The average price of a home was 4-5 times the median income. Now the average price of a home is 10-20 times the median income, depending on what city you live in.
so, when you say people in their 20's and 30's today have never had it so good, what decade are you comparing that with? The 1930's?
The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".