Slashdot Mirror
Wikileaks Releases Sensitive Guantanamo Manual
James Hardine writes "Wired is reporting that a never-before-seen military manual detailing the day-to-day operations of the U.S. military's Guantánamo Bay detention facility has been leaked to the web, via the whistle-blowing site Wikileaks.org, affording a rare inside glimpse into the institution where the United States has imprisoned hundreds of suspected terrorists since 2002. The 238-page document, "Camp Delta Standard Operating Procedures," is dated March 28, 2003. The disclosure highlights the internet's usefulness to whistle-blowers in anonymously propagating documents the government and others would rather conceal. The Pentagon has been resisting — since October 2003 — a Freedom of Information Act request from the American Civil Liberties Union seeking the very same document. Anonymous open-government activists created Wikileaks in January, hoping to turn it into a clearinghouse for such disclosures. The site uses a Wikipedia-like system to enlist the public in authenticating and analyzing the documents it publishes. The Camp Delta document includes schematics of the camp, detailed checklists of what "comfort items" such as extra toilet paper can be given to detainees as rewards, six pages of instructions on how to process new detainees, instructions on how to psychologically manipulate prisoners, and rules for dealing with hunger strikes."
The folks at wikileaks.org http://wikileaks.org/ should be prosecuted for being party to endangering National Security.
... I'm pretty sure I'd rather have publically-elected and appointed officials be the final arbiters of government secrecy, and not self-appointed anonymous individuals.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Good point. However, there are always those (GWB, Cheney) whom I'd rather *not* be in charge of such arbitration.
No extra toilet paper for these guys...gals...people. I mean... future "detainees".
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Related article on the leak: "US violates chemical weapons convention"
No matter what the ideological slant you may take, I strongly suspect that the truth is going to be a lot more mundane - again, assuming this thing is not a fabrication in either one direction or the other.
(speakin' of which, how do you tell for certain that it's not just a fabrication, either for or against? It's something I've always wondered when it comes to public wikis - unless you can verify who submitted it --or it can be independently verified-- you'll never be quite sure of its veracity.)
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
...are force fed.
Make sure you read it anyway. It'll come in handy for the eventual day you end up in a secret US prison for "National Security Reasons". According to you, you would've opposed the Sons of Liberty during the American Revolution because they were anonymous individuals opposing the government also.
Too bad Bush wasn't publicly elected either.
in U.S. "democracy" is this thug.
Cheers.
Wikileaks actual article on the leak
Related article on the leak: "US violates chemical weapons convention"
If my wikileaks I'll be seeing a doctor, thank you very much.
we certainly know we can trust everything we read on the internet as fact.
Democracy is a fine system. For beginners.
...laura
As they say, "If you are doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to hide." If that can apply to me then it can apply to the government.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
... I'm pretty sure I'd rather have publically-elected and appointed officials be the final arbiters of government secrecy, and not self-appointed anonymous individuals. Sometimes for true liberty and justice you need someone other then the government controlling the information. To really have liberty you need to know what your Publically-elected and appointed officials are doing. Democracy doesn't work when the information is controlled by the government. If the government is the sole arbiter of information then you in fact no longer live in a democracy."There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Self-appointed anonymous individuals -- whistleblowers to the rest of us -- are an absolutely critical source of information for the public in the face of secretive bureacracies. The Pentagon Papers which showed the clear pattern of government lying over Vietnam, or the Watergate leaks on the abuse of presidential power, are two obviously important examples of why leaking secrets are vital to political liberty and democracy. It's foolishly naive to believe that what appointed officials think should be the last word on state secrets.
The founding fathers were pretty clear: secrecy is the enemy of democracy. If it's not troop movements during wartime or plans to the new Deathstar, there are very few reasons not to have something public knowledge in a democracy. After all, it's my money.
It's not about hiding. I am all for open goverment and no secret. The issue here is that any information released about how we deal with the terrorist suspects, are then used in their training camps. So our methods will not be effective and they know how far and what we will do to them once captured.
SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
that this is pretty much the standard for post Geneva Convention POWs.
Neither was James Polk (1844), Zachary Taylor (1848), Franklin Pierce (1852), James Buchanan (1856), Abraham Lincoln (1860), Rutherford Hayes (1876), James Garfield (1880), Grover Cleveland (1884), Benjamin Harrison (1888), Grover Cleveland (1892), Woodrow Wilson (1912), Woodrow Wilson (1916), Harry Truman (1948), John F. Kennedy (1960), Richard Nixon (1968), Bill Clinton (1992), and Bill Clinton (1996) again.
Direct link to the document:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Camp_Delta_Standard_Operating_Procedure
That is why the US is a republic and not a democracy. The lefties tend to forget that from time to time.
I hear they have excellent articles on Area 51, Elvis' secret alien baby files, and the Jim Morrison's current address. Not to sound cynical, but what prevents the Bad Guys from using this to subtly (or not so subtly) influence what people think the "real" deal is ?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Though some of the outlined procedures are cruel and demeaning, the manual dosen't live up to the hype. I believe that the worst of what happens at Gitmo is not covered in the manual.
Congrats to Wikileaks. Hopefully they wont have to give in to pressure of any sort.
Apparently the Cubans dress like whores, or so the manual implies.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
All right, let me have the entire contents of your hard drive and your life and then we'll see about the government.
If you'd never accept that for yourself (which you shouldn't because it's retarded), then don't use it against others. By using that argument you're validating it.
Well, now problably new detainees lives will be much worse, just to maintain "information extraction" level.
Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
So you are all for a open government who only keeps secrets about interrogation methods?
The phrase "and they know how far and what we will do to them once captured" is very revealing.
Sounds like a Wookiee defense.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
many ACs died to get us this information...
The easiest way to hide a fact is misdirection. Before releasing the actual fact, release tons of extravagant misinformation, slanted to views of the various extremes. Then, when the fact is released, everyone overlooks it, or assumes it too is a fake.
Most of what you know is wrong. We live in a misinformation soup. Sorting one fact from another is not only hard, it's damned near impossible. From corporations to politicians, the truth is hidden in billions of falsehoods.
That's why I live in a fantasy world.
The internet.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
you would've opposed the Sons of Liberty during the American Revolution
Um, I believe the Declaration of Independent had its signers
So, what's your real name, or should we just call you -pussy-.
This is my sig.
A great thing with democracy is that it leads to accountability. If we disagree with the decisions of the democratically elected representatives, we can vote them out of office at the next election.
...
However, when they keep stuff secret, we have no such option. Is it important to keep us unaware that part of a prison is not accessible to the people whose job it is to ensure that the prisoners are treated according to relevant laws and conventions? Maybe, maybe not. But when a politician decide to keep it secret, we have no way - apart from leaks - to hold them accountable for it.
Can democracy without accountability work? I don't think so. Democracy requires a transparent system to work. Which might hurt security. So it is back to freedom versus security, which is most important, and how much freedom can you sacrifice before your security is lost as well?
They are not easy questions to answer, and they certainly cannot be answered simply by a dichotomy between "publicly elected officials" and "anonymous self-appointed individuals".
A whole other issue is that sometimes the "publicly elected officials" aren't going to see the secrets, part of the government keep stuff secret from the people who are supposed to overlook them. In these cases, the leaks are essential to uncover the faults in the system.
We really should ask whether these people ought to be prosecuted, even if they are doing the morally right thing.
"A man more right than his neighbors, constitutes a majority of one already," Thoreau said in On Civil Disobedience. Why "already"? Because the purpose of civil disobedience goes beyond personal liberty; it is a practical tool for changing society.
If you don't believe in speed limits, it is not civil disobedience to speed when the cops aren't looking. It is civil disobedience to speed up when you see a cop. The point is not just to disobey, the point is to force the issue upon those who would rather pretend it doesn't exist, and make them choose sides.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
...there is human slavery happening and women getting punished for being raped in other parts of the world, but, no, the US is the core of all EVIL[tm] in the world, right?
The geek community is dead. It's a pack of ignorant, effeminate pud pullers gone so far to the Left that New Zealand wouldn't want them.
Come on Slashdot. Let people express opinions different from yours especially when they list all kinds of facts along with it.
+5 Funny. How I laughed.
Why do morons like this get the time of day. People love propagating fantasy conspiracies because they so desperately wish they were true or just the thought of them might help their political cause. Really, how many "vast" conspiracies were ever really proven? I sure can't think of any. In the end the truth is nowhere near as exciting or incriminating to the other side, but who cares, by then the loons are on to the next vast conspiracy by the evil US government. It's amazing that people have such contempt for the US and it's traditional values. If the US ever crumbles, the world will closely follow. I'm so glad the hippie freaks who protest...everything...are merely an irritant and not the norm in America.
What did we have before a cursor? A precursor...
Do you really think think that those providing the training are wholly truthful with their recruits when it comes to the limits the US will go to?
If the US is willing to waterboard prisoners I'd bet that the terrorist recruits are actually told that if they're captured they'll be subject to genital mutilation or starvation or some other medieval torture method.
Think about it, if you were training fanatics, you'd want them to think that the enemy was as heinous as possible in order to (a) make them hate our freedom more (that was sarcasm for those with defective sarcasm detectors) and (b) make them more willing to carry out their mission, even under threat of death, than submit to the US military.
Besides, all they have to do is watch CNN, and they'd know that the if captured it is possible but unlikely that they would be waterboarded, they can expect to be locked in cold extremely well lit cells with very little clothing, forced into stress positions, and subjected to any number of intimidation tactics (dogs, screaming, moderate physical blows).
Hienlien. Have Space Suit, Will Travel.
Just read that again the other night.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have publically-elected and appointed officials be the final arbiters of government secrecy, and not self-appointed anonymous individuals.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't. I'd also like to think that you believe in the notion that a free press (and everything that comes with it) is necessary for a functioning democracy. Then again, maybe not.
On a side note, I'm alway amused to see governments (or those in governments or similar positions of power) do things us ordinary plebs wouldn't dare. Here we have the Pentagon refusing to adhere to law by "resisting" a FOIA request. Imagine in the case of a traffic violation, for example, how such concepts as "resisting a request", "seeking an exemption", "requesting a waiver", or, to use two favourites of the current administration, "ignoring a subpoena" and "asserting executive privilege", would go over with the cop who pulled you over, or the judge staring you down in court.
"Not guilty, your Honour. Mistakes were made, and bad intelligence is to blame. I can't be held responsible."
> Fact-checking and verification is a pretty complex problem that, in the end, will always
> break down to faith in one party or another.
Faith in an anonymous party is rarely warranted.
Faith in pseudonyms, however, can make sense.
It's hard to speak on behalf of an entire people while remaining anonymous. On the other hand, blowing shit up (e.g. Gaspee and Liberty) or destroying large quantities of private property (e.g. Boston Tea Party) is pretty hard to do on a constant basis without remaining anonymous. Unless you declare war, which the Declaration of Independence essentially did. So, your point is pretty much ridiculous on both ends.
I'm pretty sure without those Sons of Liberty "cowards", American history would have turned out very differently. But, hey, here's to all the dead revolutionaries we can toast to because we know their names.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
Infidel! The Slashdot Manifesto states quite clearly that the USA is the most evil entity ever to appear in the history of the Universe. We're all living in a police state. In fact, the Bushstaoppo police will be breaking down my door just for posting this. Any minute now. Mmmmmmyep. Riiiiiiiiiight.... now. No, now. Hmmm. Must be caught in traffic.
Anyway, Slashdot is the rag tag rebel fleet fighting the Evil Empire so geeks can feel like they have meaning in their lives instead of frittering it away on obscure Linux distros, spending more hours configuring MythTV than actually watching TV and comic books.
I shall now huff and puff at you for several minutes for being so ideologically impure!
Wow, what a fallacy. How many were there before we went to war? 2 attempts, a decade apart? Saying that, because we went to war, therefore there were no more attacks is classic Ignoratio Elenchi...the fallacy of the Irrelevant Conclusion because being at war has nothing to do with terrorist attacks. It's also a kind of twisted Denying the Antecedent...
At Peace->Got attacked
~At peace
Therefore ~attacked.
You clearly wouldn't know truth if it was sitting on your face.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
By using that argument you're validating it.
But mommy! The government did it first!
Sad that in this day and age, the rest of us have to be the big boys and set the example for the people who like to pretend themselves "leaders".
That article on CS gas is so lame... If you join the army you WILL be subject to CS gas in your training... All it is is a form of tear gas.
"Oh, let't not use any from of anything that might make the baddies go away. Let's just give them hugs. That will make them happy and want to stop killing innocent people and not enflict their horrible religion on us."
I hate crap like this. Fricken liberals...
It used to be the case where prisoners of war could use the Geneva convention to understand what to expect and the methods which would be used to detain them.
If you're planning on torturing POWs then yes it might be useful for them to know the sort of techinques you might be using so they can prepare for them but I'd sincerely hope that any nation calling its self civilised would definitely not be torturing it's POWs, under any circumstances. Any non military prisoners should be treated by the existing criminal justice system which also, so far as I am aware, does not allow torture as a valid means of gathering evidence.
Dude, you're talking to a crowd which by-and-large believes that if the Death Star Plans were GPL'd, that Galaxy far, far away would have been a much better place to live in.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
... will be the Next Big Thing.
Given:
1. Effective DRM is impossible.
2. By definition, there is no such thing as DRM against printed documents.
I reckon the next big thing will be some sort of software which puts the fear of God into those who may wish to leak documents - by making the leaker identifiable. Specifically, watermarking them. Where two spellings of a word are equally acceptable, use one in the version sent to person A and another in the version sent to person B. Change the spacing slightly. Tweak letter shapes here and there.
Of course, then you get anti-anti-leak. Rather than publish the original document, you publish an OCR'd version.... but DeCSS hasn't stopped DVDs being shipped with CSS encryption, and it hasn't dissuaded the likes of Macrovision.
While I'm not a fan of this current administration or many of the things it has done and continues to do daily, who in their right mind would consider it SMART to release schematics to a fucking military installation?
Yeah this just happens to be a prison but how are you going to feel when someone releases the schematics to the air conditioning system at jrandom fort in your town and proceeds to gas and entire base of people?
I'm as big an opponent of fearmongering as there is. I hate the war on "terrorism" but for god's sake people, have some common sense.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
oh no, are they holding Beavis at Gitmo?!
Monstar L
"Just following orders" has never been a valid excuse. Witness the fate of Nazi war criminals after WWII. As a member of the armed forces of the United States of America you take an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. I'm sure that when the next Administration takes office, many people who performed waterboarding and other acts of torture will be prosecuted and "Just following orders" will not absolve them of guilt for the atrocities they committed. In fact, I could see the current administration making a move to prosecute those people now so that they can pardon them for their criminal acts, as they did for Liddy.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It is a lot of pages but so far this text seems to be pretty standard procedure for dealing with what the US claims are highly dangerous people. If the guidelines in this document are followed it is hard to see evidence of torture. Then again I thought abu ghraib was pathetic. If muslims talk just because a dog is barking at them, well, it is just pathetic. Read up on some real torture sessions, done against women and childeren and then come back. Being put into humiliating postions? Flushing a book? Oh yeah, that compares to electro shock, being beaten to death and seeing your fellows executed.
Is the US right in doing this? Hard to say, they face an enemy that on the one hand seems almost eager to die for the cause but can't be counted on to make a stand so they can be wiped out. How do you deal with an enemy that behaves like a civilian right upto the point they detonate a bomb, then blend back in again.
Germany had over 97% casualty from mistreatment of its russian prisoners, that is clear, you can't argue that this was barbaric. But where do you draw the line? I seen stories about criminals in the west who are let go because putting them in jail would place to heavy a burden on them. Eh yeah, we should only jail people who can handle it. Why not give speeding tickets only to those who can afford them?
The world, it is not just the US that is faced with radicals, is in a war that cannot be won by conventional means. So what do you do with your prisoners, there is no real war, so they ain't real prisoners, and the enemy cannot be defeated so you cannot return them afterwards.
If you look at the aftermath of the various EU terrorists attacks, then the response has been basically,"oh you naughty kids, don't do this again or I will have to scold you a second time". That doesn't exactly seem to work.
The US method? Well, that doesn't exactly seem to work either.
Perhaps the world is just at a loss, what do you do against fringe groups who are on the one hand fanatical enough to do anything, but smart enough to not wipe themselves out? It ain't just muslims, Japan had that nerve gas attack, America had Oklohoma, Holland had themurder of Pim Fortuyn. How do you deal with those who want to overthrow society but at once are such a part of that society you can't seperate them.
I think this whole jail is just a big mistake, they thought they could use it for intel, and all they ended up with was a public relation disaster because the public doesn't want to hear about how the world works. If you think the stuff here is really disturbing read up on innocent mental patients strapped to their beds for days because you don't want to pay for medical care. No red cross who inspects mental wards.
The US would have much better off had it shot these people instead of capturing them. Offcourse, that has other issues, tell the enemy surrender is not an option, and you just make him more fanatical (russian soldiers scared the germans, because the russians just didn't quit)
Lots of people will disagree with me, but frankly if you want to cry about abuse of power there are far worse places in the world. This seems to be just a rather harsh prisoner of war camp. Compared to the real horrors that go on around the world, I can't loose any sleep over it, especially if you realize that the people improsened here support goverments and organisations that have absolutely no rules about the treathment of prisoners.
Watch the movie The life and death of Colonel Blimp, a story about a man who has to realize that in a dirty war, you got to fight dirty.
Oh and please don't think me a Bush supporter, I am not, but the world has this war now, and we need to deal with it. Whining about how things should be different don't help. We need to clean up this fucking mess and pulling out ain't the fucking answer. If bush can't take responsiblity someone else will have too.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
For your entertainment, here's the Slashdot discussion of Wikileaks when it was first announced.
Try to see how many claims you can find that the site is either a scam, or dead on arrival!
Using a argument in a debate or discussion does not validate it, it raises the point. I make the assumption that we thinking here.
Jumping from secret illegal government interrogation methods to sweeping comments about my entire life and hard drive is dumb (although I don't really care about the HDD).
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
When the negatives so far outweigh the positives, are the positives really that important any longer? The women going to school thing was bullshit, under Saddam education was handled secularly, and with little to no discrimination. Now that the religious leaders are in charge we're seeing just how far that's taking them back to the dark ages.
Also, so fucking what if we (the US) are able to open a few schools? If the kids die on their way to the schools because of suicide car bombers, then the whole open schools argument is moot.
Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.
Who's more credible -- random anonymous internet posters or the Bush administration?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
How dare you say such a thing.
This is a matter of national security. If the terrorists know what is going on in G-bay then they can be trained to prepare for the torturing and other techniques used there. If they are trained to expect what is coming then they will be less likely to give up information when we try to torture it out of them. American lives are at stake. How dare you even mention the government doesn't have our best interests in mind. If you are not with the American lives, then you are against them, and therefor a terrorist. Please come with me for your own protection.
How about all your personal information be posted there...credit card numbers, SSN, etc. What the heck? It's all fine by you that confidential information be leaked. And of course, anyone can decided what is appropriate to leak according to you. So I just decide that you are fair game.
Maybe you'd like all the nuke codes to be published. They are government controlled information.
How about secret troop movements. Or how to hack into your local Police department computers. Oh...hey, then there's the government controlled prison system. Surely they have lots on confidential information that some criminal thinks is appropriate to be leaked.
Do you really need someone to explain this shit to you? Look past your naive ideals to reality. What, are you 14 years old?
Also, your assumption that it was the same moderators may not be accurate.
Absolutely. Maybe it'd encourage us to get rid of a few.
Sounds good to me.
Chapter 1 Section 1-7 Paragraph (2):
Detainees must be treated humanely
Chapter 1 Section 1-8 Statement (a):
Detainees are to be treated in spirit of Geneva Convention
Chapter 16 essentially outlines how to respect the religious tenets of the Islam
NO WHERE in the report is the word torture mentioned...
INTERESTINGLY, the CINC is only mentioned once; that the implentation of the SOP should follow the CINCs AND Geneva Conventions intentions
Basically, this document says follow international law and respect the detainees. This is not going to be a watershed or bring about the impeachment of the President. Not much to speak of really. That being said, it is an illegal prison and needs to be shut down and a new way of dealing with these people devised.
...and it should be known by now
Really, how many "vast" conspiracies were ever really proven? I sure can't think of any.
Proven government conspiracies:
- The US government's advance knowledge of the planned attack on Pearl harbor in 1941.
- COINTELPRO actions taken against civil rights leaders like MLK.
- CIA-backed coups and assassinations in Latin America during the Cold War.
- The NSA's illegal wiretapping program.
Read more history and current events.
Also, this article isn't about a "conspiracy" per se. It's about actions which are government acknowledges are going on refuses to tell the details about.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Really? The "final arbiters of government secrecy"? Why?
An unquestioning trust in the government goes against everything this country was founded on. The United States was supposed to be under the people. Government officials are supposed to be accountable for their actions to the people that elected them. "Of the people, by the people, for the people", remember? It's what made us different from every other government that came before us. Our officials are citizens, subjected to the same laws as the rest of us, not Royalty who are above the law. When an administration ignores the law, especially one as important as the Freedom of Information Act (see the summary), it is important for other citizens to step up and hold them accountable.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
Um, I believe those same signers also opposed the Crown anonymously BEFORE decided that war was the only solution.
Of the millions of items sent to Iraq, less then 200 cases of CS grenades were sent. Somehow that leads someone to believe that they are being used in combat, even in the absence of any proof or allegation. More likely they are being used for training.
Ya see, chemical training is required yearly. That means ya gotta have CS. Generally, you get a small cinder block house, put your people in it, pop the grenade and then let em scramble for their masks. I have personally been exposed to CS many times, having gone thru Nuclear-Biological-Chemical (NBC) training before the first Gulf war.
The 'people' we are fighting in Iraq can and will use any weapon or tactic. You can't fault us for training our 'people to prepare for them.
I find this topic and the arguments around it fascinating. My grandfather was imprisoned in Poland under false pretenses for five years. He had to negotiate for toilet paper. He performed many hunger strikes to win things like reading material, one time starving himself for 28 days. Seeing this manual is fairly chilling for me.
Many times over the years when I'd talk with people about his experiences, they would reassure me that such a thing wouldn't happen in a healthy constitutional democracy like the US. The cruelty and Kafkaesque behavior of his captors was relegated to the sickness of communism to be sure.
At some point long ago I realized that wasn't the case, and that we were very much capable of similar evils. Some people wouldn't agree with me, but here we have the plain as day proof.
I'm sure a percentage of the people reading this post think "who cares if they're mistreating suspected terrorists?". To each of you that feel that way, I would say this: if we had this conversation about my grandfather and communism before 9/11, or perhaps if you read his book, you'd have condemned his captors to hell for being so awful.
I love this country dearly but I'm ashamed of much of what we're doing right now.
Also: if the manual reads to you as being "not so bad" remember that it is very different when you're on the other side of it. And remember that it's just a manual: the real day to day life there is bound to be far more questionable.
(a) Camp Delta CO will have one of the Administrative NCOs, working in Camp-1, using whatever means available (i.e. golf cart, HMMWV) move to the power substation adjacent to the water tanks by Camp Bulkeley. Admin NCO will carry a SABRE radio.
(b) Upon arrival will enter the gate by entering the number (1998) in the combination lock.
(c) Proceed to the junction box with the number (7012-83) Breaker Box and open the box. The number for the lock on the breaker box is (224). And it goes on.
I love it.
Specialization is for insects. -Heinlein
There were eight years between the first World Trade Center bombing and 9/11. How many years has it been since 9/11/2001? Oh, right, just over six. We might actually have some evidence that the current policies are working if we were to go, say, 1.5 times as long between al-Qaeda terrorist incidents on U.S. soil, to allow for statistical variation.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
How about secret troop movements.
Professionals know there is no such thing as a "secret troop movement." That's because professionals study logistics rather than tactics, and the logistics train will *always* tell you where they're going.
Do you really need someone to explain this shit to you? Look past your naive ideals to reality. What, are you 14 years old?
Are you an asshole on purpose, or does it just come naturally to you?
-- Cerebus
It means nothing more than that. If the government can continue to do as it pleases, national security is not at risk. If the people were to revolt against the U.S.'s foreign entanglements that eventually cause terrorism against the U.S., it might inconvenience the elected leaders and the people pulling their strings. There's plenty of money to be made in wars, and the war profiteers aren't even trying to hide it anymore (see Blackwater and Halliburton).
I mean it obviously turned you into a nice, respectful, polite and caring person. Just because you like sucking down poisonous gas, doesn't mean the rest of us level headed HUMAN BEINGS have to take it.
Yes, i know boot camp trainees have to learn how to put on gear in a controlled gas exposure environment and some barf all over themselves in the process but using such gases on civilian populations during a time of war is indeed a violation of the chemical weapons plain and simple.
I know how to make a smoke screen dark as night with over the counter agents. My smoke screen won't burn your skin off, make you barf all over yourself and cause seizures, panic, vomiting, anxiety, itching.. i guess you may get watery eyes or cough if you breath it in but no matter what the excuse is, it doesn't make selective use of chemical agents any better.
lighten up on the bigotry as well..
since you obviously failed at knowing what a liberal is, i'll spell out what a bigot is for you just in case.
bigotry (bg'-tr) pronunciation
n.
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.
Oddly enough, DRM was invented for -exactly- this purpose.
Not to stop johnny from copying his music or to prevent people from publishing movies to the internet.
It is meant to prevent unauthorized personnel from reading documents they're not supposed to read
and to make sure they don't make any unauthorized copies (and take them home with them,
where they can be lost/stolen).
The Dutch Military still has serious issues with USB sticks,
the data on them and the ways people manage to lose them,
even after countless security briefings, memos and technical restrictions.
(OK, let's disable USB on all workstations, they never use them anyway, OOPS)
"I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
It doesn't seem that sensitive. I've not looked right through it but it seems to show the camp in quite a good light, see for example this;
f. Do not use the left hand to give a detainee food.
Muslims use their left hand to clean themselves and it
is culturally inappropriate to offer food with the left
hand.
g. Do not relate terrorism to Islam. It is
inappropriate to equate any religion to such heinous
activity.
h. Do not point a finger at detainees as it is
considered very disrespectful and derogatory.
i. Avoid using foul language as it displays a lack of
composure.
These all seem to be fairly positive things, from the point of view of respecting the ways of the people who are detained. This is far less a smoking gun from what I've read and more a guide on how to make people feel as secure and happy as possible when in the camp (which I know won't be a bed of roses for them...). I really wouldn't be amazed if this was "leaked" by a supporter of the guantanamo bay compound. But maybe that's just my cynical nature, it is possible that a lot of the people in the military really do just want to make the situation as good as possible for the people who they happen to have there
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
Wow, that canard's old.
The US is a federal constitutional republic, and as such, the political system meets one of the definitions of "democracy".
"A constitutional republic is a form of liberal democracy..."
Sounds like Hell for you on two levels
Kythe
http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/3891829/camp_Delta_standard_operating_procedures_military_manual_(Guanta.3891829.TPB.torrent
Also keep in mind, that this (paper DRM) is, of course already reality:
Color Copiers are already 'prohibited from' copying paper money.
Just try it and see what happens.
Then, try to find an (exotic) currency it might not already know
"I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
From your "Lancet source":
"We estimate that between March 18, 2003, and June, 2006, an additional 654965 (392979-942636) Iraqis have died above what would have been expected on the basis of the pre-invasion crude mortality rate as a consequence of the coalition invasion. Of these deaths, we estimate that 601027 (426369-793663) were due to violence."
"Separation of combatant from non-combatant deaths during interviews was not attempted, since such information would probably be concealed by household informants, and to ask about this could put interviewers at risk.
Their sample size was 12,000, in which a total of 629 deaths were reported. You (in a general sense), are racist when you talk about the death of a few thousand american soldiers, but neglect to mention or even less, acknowledge the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.) I would buy "insensitive". That is NOT racist "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." According to the surveys Saddam's Iraq was safety paradise to live in Is that surprising, considering there is war going on? Let's not be mistaken, "safety paradise" != "paradise". Hell, Gitmo is a "safety paradise" compared to pre-invasion Iraq.
Our fax cover sheets say that even if all that follows is a damned pizza order.
That reads like a SOP for a well-funded maximum security prison. It's rather labor-intensive; a US prison wouldn't be that heavily staffed. It's amusing that "punishment food" is MREs, which is what our soldiers eat. But that's not a big deal.
The terms are incredibly permissive in one area - religion. Considerable efforts are made to accommodate Islamic worship. The guards are required to handle a Koran in very specific ways. Prayer mats are provided. Even honey and dates are supplied for Ramadan.
When softening up prisoners for interrogation, the US military might do better to provide inmates with lots of American movies and music, but less religious support. Islamic fundamentalism is instilled by emphasis on Islam to the exclusion of all else, and the Camp Delta procedures reinforce that. If prisoners want a Koran, they should get a paperback copy, maybe a Xerox. Let them watch Baywatch reruns, and schedule the good parts to conflict with their prayer schedules. Have different prisoners doing different things at different times, to discourage synchronized prayer. The official attitude should be "if you want to pray, we're not going to stop you. Whatever".
A political system corrupted by money is the root of our problems, because the vast amounts of influence money can buy in the theater of public opinion corrupts on both the political and policy level.
The two party system does need reform, but don't let's go over to multi-party systems like the Israelis, Italians, or the Iraqis. Multi-party systems have the potential to be vastly corrupt and chaotic, and held hostage by extremist elements just like our own system here in the US.
But yes, WE ARE ALL AMERICANS, on the same side, mostly wishing this war would be over.
No weapons of Mass Destruction ever found
Saddam admitted he was going to build nuclear weapons as soon as the sanction were lifted.
+ No realistic plan at all to rebuild Iraq
Iraqis have to rebuild their own country.
+ More Iraqi deaths since occupation than under Saddam
+ Kurdish terrorists now attacking Turkey
Iraqis killed each other, not a US problem.
+ The creation of huge Iraq sized terrorist training camp
+ American and UK forces too tied up in Iraq to effectively deal with problems in Afghanistan
There are no significant UK forces in Iraq.
+ American troops seen as evil due to their behaviour running various prisons
The only people that need to fear American troops are the enemies of the United States.
+ Trillions of dollars wasted to no good effect
+ Thousands of American deaths and countless more severely injured
More American soldiers were killed in peacetime in 1980-1982 than were killed in combat in Iraq over the last few years.
+ Iraq poised for a civil war the second the US pulls out
Iraq will not have a civil war. They had the civil war, it is ending, thanks to American mediation, and Iraq will emerge a real country.
+ Iran and other enemies of freedom reaping the benefits of an overstretched US military
Then why wait to bomb Iran? You keep talking about Iran this and Iran that? We don't need to invade Iran to destroy it!
+ Constantly rising oil prices
Really, at the same time, Democrats actually proposed a tax -INCREASE- on gasoline to save the planet. You sound like a two year old bitching about everything, with no real vision or plan.
Despite all of the left wing hand wringing, whining, and treason,
THE USA IS WINNING AND IS GOING TO WIN THE WAR IN IRAQ.
This is my sig.
And in a military setting where a central authority has complete control over all systems from end to end, you'd expect it to work. Clearly it hasn't here though...
If gulags like Guantanamo Bay are required in order to win, is victory worth it?
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
... I'm pretty sure I'd rather have publically-elected and appointed officials be the final arbiters of government secrecy, and not self-appointed anonymous individuals.
Since when did government officials ever effectively police themselves? They are prone to covering up anything inconvenient to thier income or career - particularly in the USA right now. A third party has got to do it for them and us.
It is a lot of pages but so far this text seems to be pretty standard procedure for dealing with what the US claims are highly dangerous people. If the guidelines in this document are followed it is hard to see evidence of torture. Then again I thought abu ghraib was pathetic. If muslims talk just because a dog is barking at them, well, it is just pathetic. Read up on some real torture sessions, done against women and childeren and then come back. Being put into humiliating postions? Flushing a book? Oh yeah, that compares to electro shock, being beaten to death and seeing your fellows executed.
You don't know jack shit about Abu Ghraib. Men were beaten with table legs, and raped up the ass with broomsticks and chemical lights. Women were raped by guards. A man had his legs held open while an officer repeatedly kicked him in the crotch. You think it was pathetic because you don't know a damn thing about it. You only saw a couple photos of a guy with a hood on his head and thought "Oh that's nothing" and moved on with your life, even though you were told that there were even more pictures that were, and I quote, "much worse". Guess what? You bought into the media spin.
Do you think this guy was humilitated to death you dipshit?
A good place to start with actually informing yourself would be to google up the Taguba Report for a beginning of what went on.
Skimming the rest of your post, you make some decent points, I just get really pissed when people blow off Abu Ghraib because they think it's all just barking dogs and panties-hats. Well you're wrong. It was honest-to-god torture. People died from it. You don't die from dog barks.
The enemies of Democracy are
We have known for years that the US policy was to treat these guys nauseatingly well. Slashdot isn't known for having informed, objective people, but I am shocked at the gross ignorance on this board of things that have been public for a long time. For example, we have known since 2004, at the latest, that waterboarding required explicit permission all the way up the chain of command. We learned recently that it hasn't been used in 3 years, and that only 3 people were ever waterboarded. We have known for years, also, that soldiers were expected to treat prisoners with kid gloves--literally, in some cases--even as they had urine and semen thrown at them, and detainees trying to gouge their eyes out or choke them.
Sometimes the groupthink on slashdot is pathetic.
what those guys at KWikileaks have done is no worse than what http://cryptome.org/ were doing/did(are they still up?)
Go ahead and keep on arguing about Iraq and the "war on terrorism" and Jane Fonda and some other irrelevant bullshit. I'm just gonna keep on reading and getting my lulz.
fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
I enjoyed reading your clear post and I agree.
Having scanned the document and read its table of content, I can't see much danger or even inconvenience arising from its publication. Of course, the level of detail of the description of the operating procedures and the base diagrams could conceivably be of help to anyone planning an assault on the GTMO. But then the area security arrangements are another matter altogether and are not even in the document. Besides it's unlikely that security of the GTMO hinges on it's layout or operating routines not being known: if anyone who doesn't belong there even gets close to it then security has been compromised already.
As to the angle of "national embarrassment", I don't see the problem. Considering the document, the level of procedural detail, the emphasis on not using gratuitous or non-functional force, and the stress placed on respectful treatment of a detainee's religious beliefs and taboos made a positive impression on me. All in all I'd say that this manual is something the US can be seen with in public. To me it conveys a sense of "Ok, you haven't done anything of this sort before so how you might not know how to behave. However we need to do this right, so we'll spell it out to you.". It's certainly much better than some of the stories that have been floating around, and it could even help to defuse such stories.
Whilst I continue to object to the somewhat gratuitous suspension of the "habeas corpus" rule, and the especially the (in my view) illegal denial of detainee's access to a fair trial, these detainee's aren't detained for smelly feet. They are detained because there seems to be reason to believe that they have been, are, or will be involved in acts of terrorism. In this view it seems reasonable to treat them with every caution while they are detained.
Whether the detainees should be in the GTMO at all is quite another matter which I feel can and should be discussed separately. But given that they are in the GTMO, I feel that the leaked operating procedures don't seem unreasonable at all.
Maybe if you folks would stop squabbling with each other, issues would actually be resolved and we wouldn't be as fucked as we are.
Mmm... no.
I periodically amuse myself with baiting conservatives in what may loosely be called debate. The majority of conservatives seem unwilling to re-examine their fundamental premises to see if they might possibly be mistaken... even when the observed world differs wildly from their conceptual model. Liberals, on the other hand, are willing to reconsider their own viewpoint; the worst do constantly, without any conviction that some answers really can be wrong.
Ideas are put to the test in many ways, and like anything else that replicates, mutates, and experiences selective pressure, they evolve. I admit the current means of debate is inefficient; however, don't see how stopping would be an improvement when conservatives refuse to change their positions, no matter how blatantly wrong they are proven by ultimate test of The Real World. Blind unity means putting all of your eggs in one basket, and that's a very risky strategy. Yes, we are all Americans. We scream, squabble, and fuss at one another, and have for all of history. This is not a weakness, as long as we do not let our disagreements on some issues blind us to our unity on others, and as long as we remember the dangers of full-fledged civil war. Honest dissent is not treason.
Howsover badly and ineptly it has been started, we have begun a culture clash that will dominate 21st century world history as the Cold war did the 20th (if we are lucky) or as the Hundred Years War did 14th century Europe. Continuing the debate until someone somehow comes up with a strategy that is neither rooted in delusions of our own power nor delusions about the threat is better than stupidly jumping off one cliff en masse.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
> Posing for propaganda pictures at a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft site? How can anybody
> defend that?
She was one of the great American heroes that helped convince the youth of the world that Americans wasn't all genocidal maniacs bend on bombing children with napalm, it was just their government that was crazy.
Without people like her, the world wide dislike of the various US governments would evolve (even more than it has) into a dislike of America and everything American.
As it was, the young people of the world could protest the US war and still wear US cloth and listen to US music, without being hypocrites.
Don't act as if this was unforeseen--it wasn't. Idiots just ignored the advice from many (Colin Powell, among many many others) and believed what they wanted to believe, per the PNAC agenda. We are seeing not a shocking, unforseen eventuality, but the natural, obvious, expected consequence of the hubris held by Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Kristol, and the other PNAC (and affiliated) neoconservatives.
What were the numbers people use to show how overblown terrorism threat is by the corporate owned media? 40,000 people die in auto related accidents a year in USA, right? I bet more people die in US by drawing in bathtubs each year than died in 9-11. Yet somehow terrorism is played as number one threat. Funny that. Hmmm, wonder what the truth is... wonder, wonder, oh wait the new Surviver episode is on... Yeah, sarcasm. Did you catch it?
fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
There are areas in our own country (the US) that need schools built due to overcrowding of the existing ones. Instead of building schools (that are paid for by American citizens!) for some other supposedly-sovereign country full of foreigners, how about we spend that money on schools for American citizens?
Legalize it.
You'd rather have the foxes determine what the foxes have to tell the hens?
Wow. You scare me.
There have been no terrorist attacks that killed hundreds or even dozens of people, and none that killed anyone that were reported in the media as terrorist attacks.
You don't know about the terrorist attacks in the USA that due to luck or what-not only caused minor property damage. You don't know about the terrorist attacks that were designed to appear as something else, such as simple arson.
If a criminal act is designed to scare people as much as or more than to cause damage, then it's a terrorist attack. Firebombing churches and bombing abortion clinics are usually terrorist attacks. This is particularly true if the fear is meant to last beyond the day's events. Waving a gun around in a bank to scare the teller into giving you money doesn't exactly qualify.
We don't know if some of the recent California wildfires were set by terrorists testing our fire-response systems.
Also, remember that many if not most terrorists are home-grown. It's not just the occasional Timothy McVeighs but the much larger number of Idiot McKooks out there who set fire to churches or who throw fake blood at people wearing furs. All of those actions are technically speaking acts of terrorism.
As for terrorism directed against the United States Government like Oklahoma City in 1995 or the population as a whole like 9/11, you may be right. Or maybe not. I doubt you have the data to prove there wasn't even a single small terrorist attack on some federal property somewhere in the last 6 years.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
First, you claim that the british methods did NOT work. We don't know that, unless you got a parallel universe handy to prove it, we only got the fact that the british and IRA employed the tactics they did, and now there is 'peace'. It is impossible to say that things would have turned out as they have if you had changed something. We just don't know, if the IRA had not committed bombings against civilians, perhaps the peace process might have happened quicker? If britain had been less vigilant, perhaps the IRA might have thought it could dictate a withdrawal?
But there are other differences as well, the IRA never wished for britain to be wiped of the map. The enemy is not an animal who doesn't deserve to live. The IRA tried, to a certain degree, limit the amount of civilian casualties. It could have caused many more deaths if it had gone purely after a huge death toll, it didn't and that made it easier for the enemy/victims to 'forgive'. For instance many IRA bombings were WARNED about by the IRA itself with enough time to evacuate, terror but without casualties. A HUGE difference from the bombings by Islamic terrorists or the Japanese Nerve gas attack or the Oklohoma bombing. All these groups want to do is kill lots of people who in their eyes are undeserving of living.
The link to other treaths is often made, but doesn't really matter, we all die, but terror attacks disrupt our lives. Many people die in road 'accidents' and that is why we have camera's everywhere and most of the police constantly patrolling the roads.
The problem ain't the number of deaths, it is that it is allowed to happen. Not all that many people are killed by murderes either, should we just let them go as well? Get rid of the entire justice system? No, if someone commits a crime, they must answer for that crime. You mention train crashes, holland hasn't had a person die in a train cash in decades, we have had two terrorists attacks, both murders of people who dared to speak their mind. A direct attack on freedom of speech. Surely freedom of speech is worth defending?
But there are problems, like international crime, terrorism seems almost impossible to erradicate because the police has to respect the law, and criminals by their nature don't.
The recent lebanon conflict showed this once again. Hezbollah broke every convention of war, yet it was Israel that was restricted in its actions. If you use a human shield, then those humans become active participants in that war and therefore legal targets. Yet Israel could not simply bomb them because the world was breathing down their neck.
This jail was one attempt by the americans to level the playing field, faced with an enemy that didn't play by the rules, they tried to do the same. It backfired. Not just because people expect/want the US to play by the rules, but because they did not go far enough. If you fight dirty, you really have to get dirty. If you are going to fight a war, you need to commit to it fully, send in all the troops you need and then double them and send them in with more firepower then they can handle. Any war that starts with an exit plan is doomed. No plan survives contact with the enemy.
I think the IRA and britain made peace because the war had taken its toll, both sides decided that enough was enough and peace HAD to be the solution rather then continued fighting. BOTH sides. As in BOTH, two of them. It takes one person to make a war, but it requires two to make peace.
One of the silliest things I hear people say about the current problems is,"I am not war with islam" or more personal,"I am not war with that cashier at my supermarket who wears a headscarf".
A noble sentiment, and pointless. The question is,"is islam at war with ME". Is that girl behind the cash register at war with YOU.
If someone wants a war, the other side rarely has the luxury to ignore it. Exactly who desired the current conflict is why beyond even my lengthy ranting, sad fact is that we got a conflict, it has been brewing for a long
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Any systems that human beings in it is doomed to make mistakes, be it voluntary (spying) or involuntary (accidents).
The only other option (SkyNet), isn't very appealing either, though.
"I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
> If you look at the aftermath of the various EU terrorists attacks, then the response has
> been basically,"oh you naughty kids, don't do this again or I will have to scold you a
> second time". That doesn't exactly seem to work.
The terrorist attacks has been treated like criminal cases, the ones directly involved has been brought to justice. Nobody has been "scolded".
The USSR and Nazi Germany were at least honest about their totalitarian tendencies, whereas BushCo continues to peddle the line that America is a free country while violating every international convention and law that gets in their way.*
What?
Your post is complete and utter nonsense.
There are laws, and there is a functional, respected justice system. If terror suspects are accused of breaking a law, let the justice system do it's job. if the suspects are found to be guilty then they should be subjected to the appropriate punishment.
Justify to me why anything less is appropriate and/or acceptable.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
I'm not one to let the Government get away with doing stupid things, but releasing a site for the global release of sensitive information is equally as stupid.
Sometimes, people don't know what the government is doing, and it is best kept that way.
This site, although well-intentioned, is practicing the very stupidity and wrongdoing that it is claiming to be against and help prevent.
Now, people have a way of leaking and releasing VERY SENSITIVE information on a global scale ANONYMOUSLY. So, if some 'mole' starts leaking information about national security issues on this site, the government can only sit back and wait to see what his/her next post will be about.
It's amazing how these morons are perfectly content with granting anonymity to people who release information that puts *EVERYBODY* at harm.
This site does nothing more that tell us stuff that any Joe can find out, except they are willing to grant anonymity to people who are actually leaking information that can put countries at greater risk by allowing their sensitive information to be posted globally without risk or consequense to the mole.
I hope someone manipulates this site just to show how badly it can be abused.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Join the army then. You're not very smart (to judge by your analogy and especially by your idea of a solution) so you'll get along fine.
Not until POTUS Chaney/Bush is prosecuted for endangering National
Security, WC/CAH, WhiteManDisease fraud, a/o failing to protect
"The USA Constitution".
Fear of criminal prosecution does not justify the use
of any security classification. Hiding behind faux-secrecy
for personnel protection is a version of Ollie (the worm) North.
I wish Gordon (got me) Liddy was POTUS. I would not like his
politics, but he would make all the present and Wannabe POTUSs
look like who they are pseudo-patriot wimps.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Already done, long ago. There are summary sections, often written "to the point" which they hope journalists may fall for qouting it literally. Don't remember the source but it was solid enough.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Uh...the "bad guys" don't limit what "they" do based on what "we" do. They've been beheading and torturing far longer than "we've" been "there."
If you concept actually applied, wouldn't "they" be lining up to go to the tropical paradise at Guantanamo where they get clean clothes, good food, wonderful weather, new Korans, etc.?
What you propose is like "head they win, tails we lose."
That is a nice list of names, with a few notable presidents who were assassinated, but I looked up a few of the election results, and I did not see the comparison outside of Rutherford Hayes (1876) and Benjamin Harrison (1888). Ironically, this situation has only occurred where a Republican has defeated a Democrat (the democrat has won the popular vote, but the republican has won the electoral vote), and these situations have normally been surrounded by very problematic conditions with the vote count, handling or voter denial.
As an aside, there is a tidbit of information on in the wikipedia entry for the 1888 election that pertains to the past 20 years concerning free trade.
What am I overlooking? Please educate.
InnerWeb
Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
The US is not supposed to be a democracy. It is supposed to be a republic. And for true liberty, I'd say that you would want no (or at least smaller) government or "ruling entity" legislating rules/punishment to control the population. Don't know how justice would exist in such a place, beyond having a population of extremely responsible, thoughtful citizens managing themselves. Applied today, I think it would look a lot like the Mad Max series of movies-- but hopefully with a better wardrobe.
I'm with you so far. So how do you and I go about choosing the right people for the job?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Because the alternative is that private, anonymous individuals arrogate to themselves this authority, bypassing the democratic process and depriving their fellow citizens of any participation at all in the decision-making process. It's bad enough when openly elected and appointed public officials, subject to myriad checks and balances and oversights and public accountabilities, overstep their authority. Why should I be happier when private individuals, subject to no controls at all, do the same?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Man, do /. users ever feel a slightly sickly sense of shame? The FIRST comment -- pointing out that there has been a number of pro-American leaders elected lately -- was insightful. And it gets modded "troll."
Why don't I ever see such blatant abuses when I am meta-moderating?
- Alaska Jack
Sometimes, people don't know what the government is doing, and it is best kept that way.
Can you elaborate on the circumstances where this is true?
Now, people have a way of leaking and releasing VERY SENSITIVE information on a global scale ANONYMOUSLY.
Are you sure that this is really a new capability? Are you sure that they are really able to do this anonymously? How do you know that this wasn't possible already, and how do you know that this site isn't actually a cover for a government operation?
which suggestion exactly do you find "barbaric in the extreme"?
- Alaska Jack
Well, it doesn't look like anything OVERLY bad is happening there.. except for this little tidbit:
Appendix G
Camp Echo
This annex is classified and available to those individuals that have a requirement to have it. All requests for copies of this annex are to be submitted to JDOG Operations.
So, camp echo is where the bad things happen, I imagine. Maybe that document is next?
-- MrMud
That isnt in a SOP for any prison. Seems like pretty routine things.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
First you say that Wikileaks is a bad idea, and then you say that they're not leaking anything that can't be found out easily by anyone. Can you explain that?
Also...Can you explain to me why you think governmental secrecy is important/beneficial?
If you dont believe that Afghnaistan and Iraq is one part of a multi-faceted approach to the fundamental "who rules dilema", then you should pack your bags and get the fuck out and take Alec Baldwin with you, you dopes!
This isn't rational argument. It's pure aggression. Can you perhaps take a deep breath, try and calm down a bit, and then explain your position without all the aggro and swearing? You might be a bit more likely to get people to listen to you, then.
The civil war is not a "direct" result of our invasion. There were dozens of deliberate choices made by other human beings between what we chose to do and what is going on now. This is far, far, far from "direct".
You are a tool of the terrorists. They DELIBERATELY ignited a civil war, banking on the fact that your hatred of your political opponents would cause you to blindly place the blame on Bush rather than the terrorists. OUR war in Iraq ended in 2004 with a minimum of causualties. AQ's war in Iraq is ongoing and extraordinarily bloody.
Frankly, there is a more DIRECT line of reasoning that leads to the conclusion that the war is the fault of people like you. AQ started the war precisely because they wanted to manipulate you. Unfortunately, you have proven them right.
And, by the way, I am with you all the way that it is an impractical scenario, but moral reasoning has a very important place in this, because it is the immorality of the war that fails to convince the Iraqi people that a US invasion of their country was a good idea for them.
Now for the crazy bit... Say I hadn't read any newspapers, didn't listen to anyone's political views, and someone just told me some facts about what's happening in Iraq - there being basically no effective government or infrastructure in place for the civilian population but at the same time there being a massive ongoing military presence and the construction of massive US bases there, and assuming that the US knows what it's doing, then it would appear to me that the US really just wants to be in (1) control of the natural resources of the country and (2) put its big foot in the middle east so it can be Israel's bodyguard / offset the influence of Russia which is not openly allied with Israel (Afghanistan is more convincing on the last point). And possibly (3), since the Gulf is, in the long term, not safe for oil transport, they have alternative plans as to how to transport and sell Iraq's oil in future, to tie in with 1 and 2.
And, given that the US had no morality issues with an unprovoked invasion in the first place, why the hell are they still there when it's such an apparent failure? My guess is it's not a failure for those who benefit most from this war. It's the ones who benefit from all this that should have the finger pointed at them.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
And yet that's exactly what I've hired and paid those officials to do, subject to an agreed-upon arrangements of checks and balances and public accountability. What's my arrangement with the whistleblower? Who is he accountable to? Why should I trust him? Because he flouts my laws and works in secret against my government?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Time to shutdown the internet, boys.......
It's being used by the evildoers to spread anti American progaganda.
Anyone who criticises a poster just because they voiced an opinion without making any personally abusive statements is an enemy of free speech. The most important thing on this website is the fact that Anonymous Coward can say whatever he/she/it pleases.
You basically echoed the first guy, just from the other side. I'd have slapped him, but he was just an AC...I apply -3 to all ACs, so I didn't even see him.
Conservative/Liberal...Both sides are drinking the coolaid. There is nothing to be gained by just playing the label game over and over. If I say "I like guns, the death penalty, and free trade" I'm a Bushie who loves the war and eats Iraqi babies for breakfast. If I say, "I believe in social services, universal healthcare, and the right to an abortion" I'm a whiny tree hugger.
It's just ridiculous. Most people really aren't crazy, but when every discussion devolves into flamebait and name calling without there actually having been an argument over something to start it off? That's fucking crazy.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Don't suppose anyone bothered to mirror the content or site -- seems to be "unreachable" for some reason, now. ...well start with them in San Jose, then:
...local routes...
Interesting, attempting to traceroute the path it seems like something is screwed up at
cogentco.com. Why do my packets first
SFO (CIA tap office location)
MCI(3 hops), boston(2 hops), then jfk, london(2), amsterdam, Frankfurt Germany?, Hamberg Germany(?)
then 3 more I can't decipher, then finally jumps off the "data com demarc[ation] point to another
provider (prqinet.net?), then no responses after that (after 26 hops!).
traceroute to wikileaks.org (88.80.13.160), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
8 v3498.mpd01.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.233) 161.348 ms 161.539 ms 167.410 ms
9 t2-3.mpd01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.1.129) 168.583 ms 171.663 ms 171.805 ms
10 t9-3.ccr02.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.118) 177.341 ms 178.538 ms 184.640 ms
11 g9-0-0.core01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.205) 177.806 ms * 177.290 ms
12 t3-1.mpd01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.2.218) 294.490 ms 300.275 ms 297.979 ms
13 t8-3.mpd01.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.82) 288.242 ms 290.003 ms 286.007 ms
14 g11-0-0.core01.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.21) 236.221 ms 239.490 ms 241.507 ms
15 p0-0.core02.jfk02.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.78) 229.525 ms 235.227 ms 234.020 ms
16 p4-0.core02.lon01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.254) 227.766 ms 228.737 ms 233.529 ms
17 p0-0.core01.lon01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.2.77) 200.527 ms 202.008 ms 205.540 ms
18 p3-0.core01.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.197) 208.782 ms 211.774 ms 215.764 ms
19 p9-0.core02.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.229) 214.010 ms 217.255 ms 218.990 ms
20 p12-0.core01.ham01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.186) 218.737 ms 218.981 ms 220.220 ms
21 p0-0.core01.cph01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.2.126) 230.211 ms 231.204 ms 230.948 ms
22 p5-0.core01.sto01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.38) 241.431 ms 242.163 ms 241.673 ms
23 t1-4.ccr01.sto01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.74) 209.269 ms 213.613 ms 214.002 ms
24 dcs-data-com.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.168.10) 208.787 ms 213.087 ms 218.007 ms
25 vlan582.ge0.cr0.sth3.prqinet.net (82.96.53.22) 195.795 ms 202.088 ms 204.282 ms
26 ge0.tr0.sth3.prqinet.net (88.80.5.3) 195.785 ms 196.559 ms 195.836 ms
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *
Send these guys to Gitmo and let them serve time for sedition and providing aid and comfort to the enemy!
Amen to the posters who feel they should be prosecuted!
Ah, yeah, "Free Trade" with the U.S., as in when the USD was strong, they had no problems coming up to Canada and buying whatever they wanted. But now when the shoe is on the other foot, i.e. the CDN$ is strong, they promote racist policies like: "sorry, can't sell you that car. You're Canadian".
:-))
Yeah, your word, America, is indeed worthless, in many ways, in many areas, in many places.
Try to clean up that mess of idiots you have (mis?)managing your country (note that I did not say 'leading') in Washington. (I'd say it is overdue for a ton of washing.
So, not only are the US building schools, there's also more than enough desks free in every school.
This is what the Internet is all about.
Free speech.
The US Government should suck it up big time.
"the current terrorists don't have seem to have a political wing or any sensible demands they want met or anyone to meet with to discuss them"
Er, how about getting the hell out of their country, a proposition supported by over 70% of ALL Iraqis?
You want a civilian to DISCUSS that the guys in THEIR country with the guns are going to just up and leave, and you want them to DISCUSS that with who? The guys with the guns? Get real. The "terrorists" are "freedom fighters" under another view point, and under that same view point, the occupying troops are the terrorists.
GI Joe, why don't you just fuck off from your 737 overseas military bases - you don't own the world, and you wouldn't want anyone owning your part of it either.
I am so going to get IP-black-bookmarked for this...
And these files seem to be censored now as wikileaks has been taken down and doesn't respond even to pings.
bearing in mind this news piece is 24 hours old, has wikileaks been slashdotted or have the authorities been involved??
CheShA: Manchester Breakcore / Drill and Bass Yes I'm a s
Just because you do not understand the meaning of the classification does not mean it is void.
Yeah, and how about the "settlement" of the softwood lumber dispute? "Yeah, we're America, so we'll give you back a percent of the interest we earned on the money we stole."