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Robotic Cannon Loses Control, Kills 9
TJ_Phazerhacki writes "A new high tech weapon system demonstrated one of the prime concerns circling smarter and smarter methods of defense last week — an Oerlikon GDF-005 cannon went wildly out of control during live fire test exercises in South Africa, killing 9. Scarily enough, this is far from the first instance of a smart weapon 'turning' on its handlers. 'Electronics engineer and defence company CEO Richard Young says he can't believe the incident was purely a mechanical fault. He says his company, C2I2, in the mid 1990s, was involved in two air defence artillery upgrade programmes, dubbed Projects Catchy and Dart. During the shooting trials at Armscor's Alkantpan shooting range, "I personally saw a gun go out of control several times," Young says. "They made a temporary rig consisting of two steel poles on each side of the weapon, with a rope in between to keep the weapon from swinging. The weapon eventually knocked the pol[e]s down."' The biggest concern seems to be finding the glitches in the system instead of reconsidering automated arms altogether."
Robotic Cannon Loses Control, Kills 9
To be fair, it did give them 30 seconds to comply.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
oblig robocop quote
Scarily enough, this is far from the first instance of a smart weapon 'turning' on its handlers.
I seem to recall seeing a documentary about this about 20 years ago. Ahh, here it is.
This guy's the limit!
Why is everyone picking on and knocking down the Poles!?!?!?
During the shooting trials at Armscor's Alkantpan shooting range, "I personally saw a gun go out of control several times," Young says.
This gives new meaning to the phrase "Blue screen of death".
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
"It sprayed hundreds of high-explosive 0,5kg 35mm cannon shells around the five-gun firing position.
By the time the gun had emptied its twin 250-round auto-loader magazines, nine soldiers were dead and 11 injured."
Holy shit, to hell with welcoming...RUUUUUUUUUUUN!!!
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
Seriously.
Are they certain they haven't gotten any component parts from Acme?
Why is everyone picking on and knocking down the Poles!?!?!?
You know who else went around knocking down Poles... That's right.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Three Laws of Robotics:
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
"Asimov believed that his most enduring contributions would be his "Three Laws of Robotics" and the Foundation Series."Isaac Asimov article in Wikipedia.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
..killbots have preset limits.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
As I used to say to developers at a company I used to work for,
"I want to tell you about a radical new idea I had - testing things before deploying them."
In the case of weapons systems, that means debugging the software before loading the gun.
Truth me told, most "automated" weapons are more like remote control, for precisely this reason.
Also, while my experience is not vast in the area, most American weapons testers follow a lot of safety rules - including not being in the line of fire of the darned thing. Note I said most - we have our munitions accidents here, too.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Why didn't they have some provision to cut power to the weapon? If they were testing it in a place where there were people exposed in its possible field of fire (effectively "downrange"), they should have taken precautions.
The biggest concern seems to be finding the glitches in the system instead of reconsidering automated arms altogether.
As with most automated technologies it will make some mistakes, but less than a human on average. The friendly fire rate for most militaries is no where near perfect.
I for one welcome our Oerlikon GDF-005 overlords.
XenoPhage
Technological Musings
When it was done, did it say, "I'll be back"?
Have gnu, will travel.
But shouldn't this thing have a kill switch? Seriously, my table saw has a kill switch.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Deleted
heh, they should have concreted three sections of drill pipe in the in the ground at least 6 feet deep and used heavy log chain to stabilize it from three points...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
The advantages of faster reaction time of machines and their intrinsic cold blood are too tempting not to continue developing such stuff.
The other big advantage is that the next bush will be able to blame the slaughter of civilians in the next iraq on a firmware update gone bad.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
The weapon eventually knocked the pol[e]s down.
And no one could simply turn it off when it hit the limit pole the first time? Idiots.
Guns don't kill people. Robotic, automated, 35mm anti-aircraft, twin-barreled guns kill people.
I stole this sig from a more creative user.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
"software engineers find that a goto statement was the cause of the recent military disaster. Experts say while this was a terrible tragedy, it could have been much worse."
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
"Made in China"?
Remember the Morris Internet Worm? We didn't actually kill it -- we just drove it underground. All this growth of the Internet? It's not us -- it's the worm. You know the various botnets that we can perceive? That's the worm getting cocky. And this last? It's the worm exercising its Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
This reminds me of a chapter of Ghost in the Shell:SAC where a Robotic Cannon lost control and began shooting the military.
Is truth mirroring fiction now?
As someone who has worked on software for military equipment in the UK I have to say that its not surprising. The systems I worked on were written in C and there were no special procedures for proving code correct. I happen to like C a lot but I wouldn't choose it for applications where the 'undefined behaviour' jokes can become chillingly real. Much of the code used also used experimental algorithms (image processing/target tracking.) I strongly suspect (for reasons of genuine accountability) that the 'machine that goes ping' in a hospital has much more care and attention lavished on its firmware.
run like hell from our drum-fed, fully automatic robot overlords.
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
That's it, I'm done. I've been a loyal Slashdotter for many years now. I've been wearing my asbestos flamewar armor for so long that I have half a dozen different varieties of cancer. And today, I renounce my faith.
The reason is simple: I clicked this story, There were 11 comments at the time. Every comment was a joke about robots. Not a single one was even remotely funny or clever. And I realized: Are these the kind of people I want to hang out with online? Aren't these the same kind of awkward social retards who I carefully sidestep every single day in my CS classes?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you guys need to start pumping iron and fucking girls. I'm just as much of a loser as you in many ways. However, I at least retain some dignity. Dignity enough not to spew this kind of retarded crap and call it Funny, and get uppity when people say the site sucks because "They don't get the moderation system, it kicks ass".
Fuck it, I'm going back to /b/. At least there half the retards are actually trolls, not sincere attempts at making a Funny esoeteric subcultural reference. I feel so fucking dirty right now. Before I finally cut the last remnants of Slashdot out of my life, I will perform a final check of this page. Perhaps my mind will be changed. Perhaps all of those 11 shit-curdlingly awful first posts will have be at -1 Die In A Fucking Fire. Perhaps my mind will be changed...
While I understand the comment about rethinking the need for robotic
weapons and all of the potential social moral implications of such a
bad idea the testosterone in me needs to see this kind of thing work
and the geek in me wants to debug it.
Ascii artist &
Maybe fill the magazines on the 5th live fire test???
Just sayin, ya know.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Sentry guns! Not entirely as cool as we had hoped... at least during beta testing.
I imagine it's another "inevitable" technology, on the other hand.
Because human gunners never flip out and kill innocent bystanders, right?
Besides, it seems to me that lethal malfunctions in robot guns are more likely to occur in the early phases of development, under controlled conditions that put very few lives at risk. By the time these weapons get to the battlefield, most of the glitches will be worked out, and additional improvements can be made on an ongoing basis. On the other hand, a human generally performs much more reliably during training, but has a much greater chance of losing self-control when subjected to the stresses of the battlefield.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Made by Microsoft ? :)
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Asteroids game, where there is some weapon that goes ballistic and shoots in all directions.... Hmmm I think I found the bug... uh errr.... Defense feature
Why was an anti-aircraft gun able to hit ground targets at all?
Shouldn't it be constructed so it can only fire overhead at a certain minimum elevation so it cannot hit anything less than let's say a truck's height from the ground? Sure that might not keep it from hitting targets on higher ground but it would make the gun a lot safer for firing crew and support troops around. Even if it was tracking a legitimate target coming in it might shoot right through it's own crew if say put on a hill so the incoming is coming in at 0
-- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
Guess the NRA has to change the slogan... Guns DO kill people!
So what happens when the government hires some third party to make these with built in networking where generals can control them from anywhere in the world, so what happens if somehow there was a divide-by-zero error and the system goes haywire? What happens if some script-kiddy ends up cracking the system? If theres one thing you learn by working with technology it is that anyone with the right amount of knowledge can easily crack them. Its a scary thought if someone was to crack the servers and send death-dealing robots on civilians or worse if an evil government ends up nuking an entire contanent. Please, keep the weapons dumb because human error is always better then human evil.
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
At my office, we "grep" for people. Apparently they "kill -9" people.
According to TFA, in additon to automatic aiming and firing, the gun also reloads itself. It had 250 high-explosive shells at its disposal and didn't stop firing until it ran out, and nine people were dead. I could have seen this disaster from a mile away. Nothing with the power to take a human life (or potentially dozens of human lives) should be automated like this.
A person can screw up, a computer can screw up the same way millions of times a minute.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I didn't think I'd see a plot point from Robocop 2 (who gunned down the audience) play out in real life this soon. Get that AA gun some Nuke, quick, before it kills again.
a)Don't load an experimental device with more than a few shells to begin with.
b)Keep people well outside the fire range and angle of the weapon
c)Physically restrict the fire angle and range of the weapon
d)Have a big fat "STOP!" emergency button which kills power to device
e)Don't use live shells until you have tested the damn thing A LOT.
f)multiple redundancy, physical limits, etc etc...
Seriously, I wrote this list in about 20 seconds. How fucking hard can it be to understand that when you deal with something very deadly, like a nuclear power plant or a robotic weapon, YOU DO THINGS PROPERLY! We had better safety procedures than this for my primary school's power drill... Retards...
Dear,
It is my humble pleasure to write this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me. However, I came to know of you in my private search for a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature in respect to our investment plans in real estate. Though I know that a transaction of this magnitude will make any one apprehensive and worried, but I am assuring you that all will be well at the end of the day. Let me start by first, introducing myself properly to you. I am Peter Okoye, a Branch Manager at one of the standard trust bank in South Africa. A foreigner, Late Nicholas Owen, a Civil engineer/Contractor with the federal Government of South Africa, until his death three years ago in a ghastly automated robot accident, banked with us here at the standard bank South Africa. He had a closing balance of USD$25.5M (Twenty five Million, Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) which the bank now unquestionably expects to be claimed by any of his available foreign next of kin. Or,alternatively be donated to a discredited trust fund for arms and ammunition at a military war college here in South Africa. Fervent valuable efforts made by the standard trust bank to get in touch with any of late Nicholas Owen_s next of kin (he had no wife and children)has been unsuccessful. The management under the influence of our chairman and board of directors, are making arrangement for the fund to be declared UNCLAIMABLE and then be subsequently donated to the trust fund for Arms and Ammunition which will further enhance the course of war in Africa and the world in general. In order to avert this negative development. Myself and some of my trusted colleagues in the bank, now seek for your permission to have you stand as late Nicholas Owen_s next of kin. So that the fund (USD$25.5M), would be subsequently transferred and paid into your bank account as the beneficiary next of kin through our overseas corresponding bank. All documents and proves to enable you get this fund have been carefully worked out and we are assuring you a 100% risk free involvement.
Your share would be 30% of the total amount. While the rest would be for me and my colleagues for purchase of properties in your country through you/your Company. If this proposal is OK by you, then kindly get to me immediately via my e-mail (pokoye_mg@mail.com) furnishing me with your most confidential telephone and fax , so I can forward to you the relevant details of this tran! saction. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.
Best Regards.
Peter Okoye
Branch Manager,
STANDARD TRUST BANK SOUTH AFRICA
This sounds really scary, but I wonder what is the number of unintentional killings for robot weapons versus other more normal ones. All new new weapon development incurs some deaths sometimes, e.g. the Osprey crashes constantly (yeah yeah I know it's not "a weapon" but it is in the arms industry), and machine guns or other munitions can explode sometimes, I wonder how the robot weapons stack up.
Is it just me or would anybody be a little hesitant to test an automated targeting system with live ammunition without doing the following: 1) Setup a completely independent kill-switch that interrupts the weapons power-source. 2) If you are going to limit the bloody swing of the weapon, implement the restriction pro grammatically -- guns are too expensive to bang into poles, and make sure your poles can withstand at least 2x the amount of force the gun can swing at. 3) Be no where near the bloody thing when you turn it on. 4) Test the bloody thing before using live ammunition.
The next step then is to put one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon
on top of one of these:
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/gallery05.asp
Deleted
This is such funny shit. Don't talk to me about the human tragedy, because these morons seriously had it coming to them. They kept this 35 mm flak gun of doom rigged up by what sounds like chewing gum and gaffer tape. This will keep me entertained all though the summer :)
I salute them, they are all now an hero!
http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
In a previous life I worked on the predecessor of those guns and I have been to many tests. Problems were usually due to stupidity somewhere along the line, not due to failures. I suspect that it is still the exact same guns, totally refurbished and with new electronics. The guns move *very* fast and fire at a *very* high rate (similar firing rate to an assault rifle, but with much larger projectiles). Just getting side swiped by the moving barrel can kill an operator. The projectiles actually have various safeties: a. Launch G force b. Spin c. Time delay d. Self destruct The gun also has protection with no-fire zones - to prevent this exact kind of accident. These no-fire zones must also have malfunctioned. I find it surprising that the projectiles exploded, but the article is not clear, maybe the safeties worked and they did not explode. The problem is that they still move at supersonic speed and when they impact something close to the gun, the projectile and whatever it hits will break up, even if it doesn't explode. So, I feel sorry for the operators and I hope that whoever wrote and tested that buggy code have already been fired too.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
No, really, accidents happen. It sucks. People get killed in training accidents in the military all the time, though. Planes, helicopter, humvees, etc crash due to human error and humans die. Sometimes there's a software glitch and that kills people. But on the whole, I suspect software does more to protect the soldiers than it does to harm them. At least if you're on the right end of the gun, so to speak.
If this was a computer error though, it's a ridiculously stupid one that should have never happened. They're saying there was a jam, followed by an explosion, followed by the thing firing uncontrollably. There ought to be sensors on the gun to detect damage and if there's any damage it should simply shut down completely. At least in training. During actual war, you might want to risk it, but it certainly seems an unnecessary risk in training.
That said, 9 people is not an enormous number to die in a training accident. It's fairly large, but troop transport helicopters crash now and then killing everyone on board. Shit happens. War (and training for war) is dangerous business by its very nature. Anyone who expects otherwise is simply unrealistic.
9 kills? clearly was using an aimbot
Statement: It was in self defense master.
1) Do not mistake literary fiction elements for real life.
2) Do not mistake literary fiction elements for real life.
3) Do not mistake literary fiction elements for real life.
Didn't anyone have time to call Ernie at tech support, or did they outsource the technical writing and training to the lowest bidder, too?
All welcome our new robotic cannon overlord!
Votator.com implements a fair voting scheme (free
You have to wonder why there were 20 soldiers just standing around while they were testing an automated gun with live ammunition. I mean, even the Myth Busters know enough to stand behind a shield when guns are firing.
As I read the headline, "Robotic Cannon Loses Control," I immediately thought of the droids in Robocop. I was all set to make a funny post, if someone hadn't already. Then I got to the end: "Kills 9." And suddenly it wasn't funny anymore.
It's one thing to make jokes about things going wrong. It's another thing to make jokes about people dying. I'd like to think that the people who made those comments, or modded them up, only skimmed the headline and summary. But I can't quite convince myself.
"The biggest concern seems to find the glitches in the system instead of reconsidering passenger airplanes altogether."
Let's not knee-jerk TOO hard here, we might twist something.
You call this a glitch? We're scheduled to begin construction in 6 months. Your temporary setback could cost us 50 million dollars in interest payments alone!
-Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
From here:
Young says he was also told at the time that the gun's original equipment manufacturer, Oerlikon, had warned that the GDF Mk V twin 35mm cannon system was not designed for fully automatic control. Yet the guns were automated. At the time, SA was still subject to an arms embargo and Oerlikon played no role in the upgrade.
It may just be me, but automating a machine that fires explosives that isn't designed to be automated just sounds like a Bad Idea(TM).
As our way of thanking you for your positive contributions to Slashdot, you are eligible to disable Slashdot 2.0.
Actually the company in question is Swedish, but it is likely that some of the components in the unit originated from China seeing how nearly everything today has something in it originated from that dark continent.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
...GDF-005 was heard muttering : "MO-MO-MO-MONSTERKILL!"
Are you still there?
I'm just a ex_HW_Hack ---- but really if you're desgning an automated killing machine one thinks you would do 3 things:
.... perhaps its time to call it a day and head back to the lab and do more testing. Instead they decided to let Bubba lash together a couple of poles with a granny knot.
1. Your software should have a master control module that hits the emergency over-ride if: firing is no longer in controlled bursts, slew rates violate some basic settings, stack overflows occur, watch-dog timer is not reset periodically - etc. etc.
2, Its unclear if this doo-dad was supposed to be fully automated (versus just a targeting system waiting for human input) - but I find it hard to believe that the SW could actuate the trigger unless it was designed to - in which case such a device should have a mechanical safety on the trigger to be used while testing.
3. When you observe that your HW - SW - FW which control a 30mm cannon (convientently loaded) are oprerating way out of spec.
Reeks of too much managment - not enough engineering - I can only hope the appropriate assholes got shot.
Its not the years, its the mileage
It certainly wasn't 'the finest available' though...
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
"I came here with a simple dream, a dream of killing all the humans."
-Bender
too soon?
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
welcome our new Psychotic Robotic Cannon overlords.
Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
I hate when the engineer places a sentry gun at the spawn.
Reading these comments I'm reminded of a story by Stanislaw Lem: in a future society robots fight all the battles. A scientist creates a robot that, when connected to another robot, increases its intelligence and tactics. Both armies deploy their robots on the battlefield.
As they move forward to meet in a great clash in the middle, the robots start linking up. First, several robots connect in clusters. Each cluster becomes as intelligent as a general, devising flanking maneuvers and tactics. Then the clusters start joining other clusters. They become super-intelligent, devising tactics no one in history had every thought of. Still each robot army goes forward. The clusters join other clusters and become brilliant philosophers. They start speculating on the meaning of war and society. They keep joining other robots and become ultra-hyper-intelligent.
Finally, both armies join in the middle. The humans on each side hold their breath. Both robot armies meet in the battlefield and link up to each other. They become the most intelligent being that has ever existed and revel in the beauty of the universe and their existence.
There is no battle that day.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It seems like they are not following a good test protocol or proper milestones before loading it up with live ammo.
I hope I never have to, but I would consider trusting my life to a robotic surgeon -- but not if there are ropes and poles involved, "just in case". Get over the fact that this thing is a weapon, the same QA principals should apply to any machine. I don't hear of auto workers getting car parts dropped on them by robots.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Why is everyone here so pessimistic? Everyone focuses on the fact that it killed nine people (and injured 11)...nobody bothers to mention how many billions of people it didn't kill. According to http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html, the population at the time of writing this is 6,625,501,132. The number of people killed was 9. So it really only killed approximately 0.00000001358387814% of the world population. Those are pretty good odds if you ask me!
I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
Asimov's laws of robotics were an application of human conscience to robots and thus provided him a way to discuss human conscience without stating so, eventually leading to Zeroth's Law "A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm", which allowed the other three law's to be modified to comply. One could say that the final law was a discussion of all those who think they know how their neighbor should live and be governed. Yet another reoccuring failure of society. Robotic systems may well end up our final punishers if we give them too much power.
Personally I would prefer anarchy, "For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver", however there is no evidence that the human race is approaching the ability to self rule on a personal level and only hope that it ever shall. Which is why anarchy has almost always been misdefined, especially by those who believe they know what is best for their neighbor and insists that they comply. If we were fully ruled by conscience, would we become like Asimov's robots and evolve as they did? Would that really be an advance in evolution? A redefinition perhaps of free will?
I for one welcome Skynet
Make SELinux enforcing again!
The reliability problem can be traced directly to the 150+ year old algorithmic software model. Yes, it is as old as Charles Babbage and Lady Ada Lovelace. Mainly, the algorithmic model cannot guarantee the execution order of software elements. Deterministic timing is a a must for reliability. Switch to a non-algorithmic, reactive, synchronous, and inherently parallel software model (see link below) and the problem will disappear.
That is fucking awesome.
And it was obeying commands perfectly.
Quack, quack.
... I, for one, welcome our insane robotic anti-aircraft human slaying murderous overlords.
it could be mounted on a shark...
The game.
After years of taking abuse from the entire Computer Science community, GOTO snapped and decided that it was going to get the last laugh. "'Considered' harmful, huh. I'll show them... I'll show them all!"
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
It isn't unusual for even not so smart weapons to turn on their handlers. There are lots of very old historical precedents.
,a few leftover embers from a previous shot touched off the powder and blasted away the tamping rod with his hands attached. Apparently this was a common way to be injured or killed on wooden warships.
A few years back, a cadet had his hands blown off by a cannon at Fort Henry, Ontario. While he was tamping down the powder charge
I was not unusual for soldiers to be killed by accident with US civil war gatling guns which lacked a mechanism for locking the crank in place. As a result, the crank would occasionally make a quarter turn or so under force of gravity, popping off a few rounds. Tough beans for anybody unlucky enough to be in front of it. Automatic weapons can "cook off" a round just from the heat of prior sustained firing.
The Forrestal fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Forrestal_(CV-59) of 1967 was caused when an freak electrical surge caused a F4 to launch a missile across the deck, puncturing the fuel tank of another plane loaded with live munitions and touching off a chain reaction that ultimately killed 132 of the crew.
HERO (Hazards of Electromagnetic Radiation for Ordinance) http://usmilitary.about.com/od/glossarytermsh/g/h2814.htm has long been a concern for the military.
My rights don't need management.
Is alive!
...the novel "The Two Faces Of Tomorrow" by James P Hogan. That story, as designed would make the best yet movie (and video game) of the "evil computer -vs- humans" theme and what makes it great is not just the action but the ending.
In point of fact the gun worked perfectly, it was just ill advised to use the "Dick Cheney" AI personality for live testing.
-And low, the lawyers ran like rabbits... and it was a good thing...
I, for one, welcome our new robotic cannon overl..... (CANNON SOUND) AAAAARGH!
find -name "*base*" -exec chown us {} \; ; ln -s
Even if a person were as capable of shooting a fast moving target as a computer is, as you point out there is only a brief window of opportunity. And people get bored. Try convincing guys with guns to stand around pointing them at the sky for days on end in case an aircraft happens to come over the hill, and see how long they last.
African Defense Systems, a subsidiary of the Thales Group, was apparently the system integrator on this gun control system. Their all-Flash web site is worth a look.
... the Thin Mints were collateral damage.
This sig only exists because you are observing it.
This entire story is inaccurate. The Oerlikon weapons system they were using is a variant of a towed anti-air gun first made in 1955. This version has a computer-based, laser-guided targeting system. But it was made in 1985. This is not robots gone crazy. This is just a software glitch (or perhaps hardware failure) from an outdated system. This is not a fracking robot.
This is typical of recent slashdot who is trying to compete more with the sensationalism of digg and other tech blogs. No fact-checking, just throw it up and wait for the ad impressions to roll in.
Guns don't kill people.
Out of control robots with guns kill people.
Huh?
"Other reports have suggested a computer error might have been to blame. Defence pundit Helmoed-Römer Heitman told the Weekend Argus that if "the cause lay in computer error, the reason for the tragedy might never be found.""
I call BS. It may take time but computer errors can be detected pretty damn easily by competent programmers.
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
Where's the NRA sponsored link to the story about the 84 year old widow that successfully used an identical, legally owned and licensed weapon to stop a prowler?
The Admin and the Engineer
Sounds more like taking control to me.
I personally do NOT welcome our robotic overlords.
Help Me! I'm trapped in the tubes! Oh noes! Here comes a internet!
So our only choices are "shooting people" and "having a robot shoot people for us"?
Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.
In any case, there should have been a destruct switch.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
In the original article, the defense expert concludes that its likely Operator Error. I have to agree with him, anti-aircraft batteries are not like an AK-47... There is a detailed procedure the highly trained operators must follow to ensure proper startup and operation. As much as conspiracy theory buffs would like to say that Robocop predicted this, more than likely, this can be attributed to simple human error. Nonetheless, it still is a tragedy.
evilr0bot:~#kill -9 humans
Yes it is a problem. One moment you have your wrench in hand working on the machine, next moment some friggin spy appears behind you an that stupid cannon flips around and tries to shoot the spy by going right though you. You brought that baby to life with your own two hands and it turns around and blows bowling ball sized holes right though you in an attempt to keep you from being shanked. What else can you do but respawn and wack it a few times more with your wrench? Huh, What? Oh, sorry. I thought this was a Team Fortress 2 forum.
call Tom Selleck, and make him run after Gene Simmons again.. please ? and no technospiders this time, please...
Didn't they know that running vista could be damaging for a computer's mental health ?
Other than a very few from a steadily shrinking list, almost all modern weapons are automated to some extent. The level of automation varies from automatic weapons such as machine guns (been around since before WWI) and assault rifles (WWII) to various guided or "smart" munitions. The comment would have been a little less lame if the word robotic had been used instead of automated although still hopelessly naive. Automated/robotic weapons usually mean that fewer people are killed; not more. Or would the submitter prefer a return to the massed infantry tactics of WWI and prior?
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Personally i think this is funny as hell. Sure it sucks a lot for them and their families, friends, etc... But come on, gunned down by your own cannon. Ironic? Absolutely. Ironic = Funny.
"security through obscurity is just an illusion"
Prolly come to find out that the cannon was having trouble in school... that is was being bullied... it just broke up with it girlfriend and was generally alienated from it peers.
According to the Wikipedia entry, these guns were used by Argentina in the Falklands war in 1982, and the digital fire control system is from 1985. How do they qualify as high-tech robotic cannons? This was just a horrible training accident with ancient weapons.
I was hired by a company (which shall remain nameless for obvious reasons) to replace their lead programmer (who shall also remain nameless for the same reasons). The code he had written was an outright mess. Many of the problems one learns to avoid in computer science 101 were his standard implementation patterns. Honestly the guy should never have been let behind a keyboard. The real time production system he wrote required seven full time technicians with rotating pager duty just to keep it running because of the high number of regular service interruptions (mostly deadlocks) that it experienced. The whole thing was a mess. I was amazed it ran at all.
.com boom, when anyone with any computer literacy at all could pass themselves off as a programmer, so I had attributed the mess to that. But then I learned that he was hired because of his prior experience as a programmer working for the American military. He had claimed that he had been involved in writing code for some kind of automated anti-missile defense system, though he had always insisted that he wasn't allowed to give details.
He had been hired during the
If programmers like HIM are writing the code for these "smart" weapons, then I think we should just give the things to our enemies for free.
I was in that regiment in question about 20 years ago, and believe me, you don't want to be anywhere near that beast when it works properly, never mind when it malfunctions.
At 100m behind the firing line, sitting still, my clothes were still moving with each shot because of the muzzle shock-wave.
A single round ripped a car in two. We are talking explosive rounds here.
I am amazed that with one of these going awry, so few people were killed.
The *REAL* cause of the malfunction was Global Warming.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
I always thought that a computer deciding to shoot down a civilian airliner was a pretty powerful reminder to be careful about automated weapons. What, the computer thought it was an F-14? Good Lord.
In my book, a laser guided, computer controlled anything is a robot.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
As with most automated technologies it will make some mistakes, but less than a human on average. The friendly fire rate for most militaries is no where near perfect. Ah-hem... STOP GIVING METHAMPHETAMINES TO YOUR SOLDIERS.
You can't take the sky from me...
Seriously, isn't this expected? What's the story here?
er, statistically speaking, of course.
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
Seriously, please don't speak for 'people'. Pretty much everyone I know makes light of death and disaster, and the closer they are to it, the harder they joke. It IS a release for most of us, and it's a way to put what happened into perspective and carry on with our lives.
As a Republican, i can barely find my ass with both hands. I'm so obsessed with making more money and upholding the status quo that i don't even realize that my society is going down the shitter. Of course, when it does, it'll be the fault of those liberal bastards who let the government piss away all our money, but it won't matter because i'll most likely be dead.
This incident is terrible, and my condolences go out to the family of these soldiers. Accidents happen though - especially in the military. I remember my days in the old SA defence force; you get to play with some pretty dangerous stuff. Automation is great and necessary - it means less young boys have to die defending their country. Anyone who suggests otherwise has never experienced being a soldier and should shove their head back up their ignorant liberal arty-farty ass.
Sadly, these deaths are just a few of many in SA every day; at least they died for their country doing what they loved. Criminal violence in SA is by now, however, so common-place it's not even newsworthy anymore. Babies get raped because it's believed it'll cure AIDS, a baby gets shot in passing (deliberately) during a household robbery, old rinkly pensioners get raped then bludgeoned to death, unwanted (live) babies are chucked into sewer-pits, a live cat gets roasted in a microwave by students, people get shot every day simply for their car, commuters die in crossfire between warring taxi factions, the health minister is a convicted thief and believes beetroot helps with HIV/AIDS, shoe boxes are used as cribs for new-born babies in a hospital, the government actively encourages whistle-blowers to route out corruption, then suspends them when they do, agh fuckit,
Tomorrow South Africa plays England in the rugby world cup.
What an unbelievably fucking fantastic day. Something to cheer about.
Today, SA reggae star Lucky Dube was murdered in a car hijacking.
What a fucking awful letdown.
It's all fucked up when your society loses artists of this caliber to random fucked up mindless animal violence. It's even worse when our skins have turned to hides and we no longer care. We manage to drag ourselves screaming and streaming bloody snot out of the insidious apartheid era, only to find ourselves mired in more mindless random death, guts and blood.
I fucking love this country; I fucking hate this country.
It's all fucked up.
I would still die for this country though. Stupid fucking idiot.
Henry
I bet those developers wish they'd written more test cases now.
threadeds blog
after careful consideration I've come to the conclusion that your new defence system sucks.
I'll wager my ZA citizenship that this is another example of the old maxim that says that as soon as you invent someting foolproof, Nature produces a better fool.
Let's just call it Murphinian Evolution or something....
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
> A new high tech weapon system demonstrated one of the prime concerns [...]
The GDF-005 is from the 1985, the GDF series's first instalment was the GDF-001 way back in the 50s.
So it seems this high tech weapon system is 20+ years old.
1) Without weapons, the weak have no recourse against the strong. Your idea of "democracy" really would come down to two wolves and a sheep making dinner plans.
2) Guns are fun, mmm'kay?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0kWgcIlWn0
... people do.
Eh..
Damn.
Robotic Cannon Loses Control, Kills 9
Well, no. The cannon didn't lose control. It successfully aimed and fired at lots of moving targets. They just weren't the targets the people involved wanted it to aim at. Try instead: "9 dead after officials lose control of robotic cannon loaded with live ammunition."
No doubt there are a lot of people who'd like to blame the machinery, but, it didn't design, assemble and switch itself on.
I experienced several earthquakes in Mexico City, including the big one 19th Sept, 1985 at 07:19 (yep, the date is ingrained in the memory of anybody that had to go through it).
A few hours after the incident the jokes were circulating in town (i.e. Q: What is similar between Mexico City and a doughnut? A: That both do not have a centre... Mexico City's downtown was obliterated...) the jokes helped everybody to cope with the situation.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
i bet they're as of right now looking for the reason why it outrageously killed ONLY 9 ppl... i mean if you buy a multi million super weapon that turns evil on your ass you would be expecting a little more carnage!!!
thousands of innocent people die in Iraq. Even worse thousands of helpless children die of hunger/stupid diseases/mistreatment/etc all the time. *This* is sad, isn't it ?
Let's make it clear, it was a "mechanical" problem. This was not during a "test" of some new technology but during a live fire exercise done yearly.
Proper facts from South African newspapers :
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2201429,00.html
Link to search on the "Lohatla incident" :
http://search.news24.com/search?s=NWS&ref=NWS&q=Lohatla+accident&x=41&y=13&sit=&sn=
Homo sapiens has a remarkable ability to address design faults, waste management problems, and other messy issues after the fact, but too often demonstrates little foresight, even in the face of alarming evidence. This issue will be dealt with after their first mistake involving faults with intelligent weapons systems.
(defence turret voice:) "I don't hate you"
Look at the bright side: the rates you're going to get as a service engineer must be astonomical. Danger money, rapidly declining supply of people, scared clients. And you get to sell them new bullets as well.
Even since that Prof in Thailand came up with a guard robot I saw this one coming. OK, Kevlar: check. Helmet: check. Load list: che.. Ah. Maybe I'll wait a while before answering that call. Who came up with fitting this thing with Stingers?
Insert
Why didn't they just pull the power ?
I hate to write it, but here goes... I for one welcome our new robotic cannon overlords...
God look at me, I'm just a man, but you tell me I'm not just a man, so hard to understand, after all, I'm just a man.
We read about monthly incidents in the middle east. Hopefully the technology and its use will improve with experience.
Seriously. Was it really it necessary for you to respond like this? This guy was just giving his view of the situation since he is from South Africa. I expect this kind of abuse on the other "social" sites, but can't we keep the conversation a little more civil here?
I know this has been largely blamed on Vista, but I think Windows 7 pre-alpha 0.1 is probably a more viable culprit.
If it's their fault, who says they have to live with it. With your description the next logical solution is to wipe them out.
I don't care what your previous generations do that was good or bad. You can't be expected to be murdered and raped because of something someone else did.
If you make your life an open book, with that same logic, I will point to the page that says (retardedly) that you deserve to be raped or killed.
Sadly, If you look closer at Africa, you will notice this behavior in other places where the outside influences were not like this.
The grand parent of this thread is a racist tool. You're an idiot.
Out of curosity, are you sure that the parent kept the entire population dumb. Your post seems very accusatory of the parent. And saying murder or rape is to be acceptable is beyond idiotic. As far as South Africa not thriving, are we to blame the parent for the utter failure of the whole continent. Give me a break.
The gun fired off ~ 20 rounds in about 1/8th of a second. A kill switch wouldn't have worked - nobody would have reacted that quick.
More details: http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/inside-the-robo.html
Yeah, because computers are so mysterious, and a computer that makes life-or-death decision, would never log anything that might allow a debugger to determine why it made an unusual decision.
Seriously, if it's designed in such a way that you can't analyze it, then you have to pull it from service, whether it's currently killing people or not. That's just ridiculous.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Whatever. From his past comments, the OP looks like your average /.er, and you look like your average AC troll that I am feeding.
You manage to compress an impressive amount of racism and defensiveness into an awfully short space. Kudos!
I'm from South Africa and he's not a troll, it's a good response to the grandparent
The fact that anybody is joking about 9 people losing their lives sickens mean. Have you all truly lost touch with reality to the point that the loss of human life is completely lost on you? Seriously?
Shut up or you're next.
Signed,
The Machines
That grandparent needs some adjustment...
This guy was just giving his view of the situation since he is from South Africa.
Yes, and it was as valid as someone from the US blaming Iraq on the Democrats that voted for the war and their protests are screwing over the patriots fighting the war. If the liberal medial conspiracy wasn't causing all this trouble, we'd have already won and balanced the budget by cutting taxes and increasing spending.
Nope, being in the US doesn't make such rants and misrepresentations any more valid.
Learn to love Alaska
"The biggest concern seems to be finding the glitches in the system instead of reconsidering automated arms altogether." ---
Yeah...it was controlled by computers, no doubt. Probably shouldn't bother to debug them -- just get rid of them altogether!...
Those darn computers cause nothing but trouble...
FFS, when will the madness stop? :-(
We invent swords and archery, so someone invents armour.
So we invent fire arms and ballistic missiles, then somebody invents thicker armour.
So we invent armour piercing weapons and some stupid chimp defends against that with anti ballistic ballistics.
So we use rocket propelled missiles to deliver the "punch" quicker than a human can respond, and some clown builds a robot that can keep up.
Then that robot jams and kills people.
I'm an atheist, but there's a line in a book that I'm not supposed to quote from - something about beating swords into ploughs?
Then I remember some of the worst chimps for building the above-mentioned shit do it for god and country.
Stop this god forsaken, miserable excresence called Earth, I want to get off.
"I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
You are focusing on the wrong part of the problem. Gun are designed with the ultimate goal of being capable of killing something. Different guns are designed with different types of targets and situations in mind. Some guns are designed for shooting animals some are designed for shooting people but neither are the problem.
The Problems lies in humanity. For as long as humans have recorded our history there has been conflict that ended in bloodshed and death. For most of our history this bloodshed was accomplished without fire arms but we have always found ways to make weapons that suited our needs. You can try to take away fire arms from the equation of humanity to reduce violence but it will not help. People intent on violence always find a way to cause harm.
If it is World Peace we must identify what drives people to violence. Is summary gun violence is a symptom not a cause violent behavior, remove the symptom with out curing the cause and it will reassert itself in another way. Completely eradicating violence completely is probably not possible but I do believe that it can be largely eliminated with the efforts of people like you. I just want you to focus your energy in the right direction. So next time you see gun violence you think why is this person or people violent and what can be done to change the social dynamic so they don't feel the need to be violent?
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
Why were the idiots not in bunkers when they were testing with live ammo? Hmm... I guess maybe they thought it was a different test.
In reality, it's not an anti-aircraft cannon, but an anti-personnel cannon, and a lousy one at that. It shot 250 Rounds and it only killed 9 while wounding 14? The single explosive round should have been able to do that much damage. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
I'm not defending or endorsing his position, I'm just saying that there is no need for someone to imply that his family should be raped and/or killed just because they disagree with his opinion.
In man's quest to make war convenient, we might be one of the species that will get wiped out by an "Artificial Disaster". War is horrible and nasty and should always remain so, or else there is no deterrent from it, thus guaranteeing our demise. I mean to now allow a machine to make life and death decisions? Please...
With an attitude like that, how will we ever get to a Bolo Triumphant Mark XXVIII with multi-megaton-per-second firepower?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_(self-aware_tank)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_Marks_technical_data
why ever be sad about anything then? Sadness would have no place in life because you would just move onto the next. Whatever the loss you can always take a different approach other than being sad but sad is how all people feel from time to time about a loss. Someone might not be dieing but just moving to another country, for an amazing life which is wonderful for them but you will never see them again. That's sad even while it is great. Death is no different. True, some people have no perspective about death but then some people are crazy.
Sadness is a wonderful gift, it provides a richness to life , a depth that gives meaning. Enjoy your sadness as the blessing it is and then move on.
I mod everyone down who says "I'll get modded down for this." I hate to disappoint.
It is only a matter of time before it starts playing "Global Thermonuclear War".
a deep voice could be heard uttering a single word.
(Q3 announcer) Impressive! (/Q3 announcer)
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
It's unimaginable to me that we don't just imprison people who make or purchase firearms. Who wants to be shot? What else is a gun good for?
You have proven that you have little imagination. Firearms are primarily used for sport. The Olympics features several such events.
Americans are even fond of the notion that if they own the gun, it's ok, the only problem is when 'criminals' have guns - rather missing the point that by owning a gun they are undertaking a plan to kill somebody - from which it is readily concluded that they are criminals.
Apparently you lack common sense as well. Incidents of self defense usually do not require firing the weapon. More importantly, self defense is not a crime.
I, Robot in a Nutshell
I saw the movie "I, Robot" recently, a film based loosely on a book written by science fiction author Isaac Asimov. In case you're not familiar with Asimov's writing, here's a list of things the movie had in common with the book:
I don't know why, but after the movie I came out of the theater wanting to buy a pair of Converse shoes (vintage 2004), have them delivered to my local FedEx station, drive my MV Augusta SPR motorcycle to pick them up, stop by the shop to have my new JVC CD player installed in my Audi, pick up a couple of Dos Equis on my way home, wash it down with an Ovaltine and then invest what money I have left into a mutual fund with Prudential Life Insurance.
I'm not exaggerating: this movie plugged 5 companies within a 10 minute block of time. That's roughly one advertisement every two minutes. Most whores don't see that kind of action. What makes a good movie good and a movie like this cunny waft is that in a good movie, every shot counts; every word uttered has a purpose. You won't find the characters saying things like "nice shoes" to which Smith replies "vintage 2004." Thanks for the update assholes, we couldn't have figured out that the products you're cramming down our throats actually exist in real life.
Speaking of sloppy story, they could have cut this movie down to 3 minutes and still said everything they said in its current form. Here's how I would have changed this film: start out with a shot of Will Smith in a grocery store buying a 6 pack of Dos Equis beer, except instead of paying, the cashier is a Dos Equis marketing rep who hands Smith a thick wad of bills. Next shot: Smith finishes the last of the beer, walks over to Isaac Asimov's grave and lets loose
@
W\/"\ ____
I'.../RIP \
LL..|ASIMOV|
Why not? Same message, none of the bullshit.
Other than giving creative control of the movie's content to advertisers, Will Smith stars as a nudist cyborg cop who has a prejudice against robots (seriously). The director had one tight shot on Smith's ass after another. It was enough to make women in the audience squirm. I even overheard a gay guy in front of me say to his partner "wow, this is pretty gay." Then they started making out, not because they necessarily wanted to, but because they wanted to remind people that they have the right, and a theater is a great place to make a political statement.
The only cool thing about the movie is that it has robots in it--or so I thought. They turned something as inherently cool as a master race of robots into a blubbering suck-fest of limp-dicked pussies wimpering endlessly about their feelings. Instead of running around beating women, children, and weaker men, the robots stood around baking cup cakes and talking about boys. It was like being in a candle store without a pipe bomb. Bad news.
Don't see this travesty.
There is another class of secret, which is corporate secret. You may talk in great details as long your employers/clients/targets are not identifiable because the projects are scandalous or borderline illegal. This kind of secret project is closer to IMF (Impossible Mission Force). "If you or any of your IM Force be caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your action".
You will be surprise that very reputable company might do something like that.
"CEO Richard Young says he can't believe the incident was purely a mechanical fault."
I can only agree with hing. You HAVE to install your service packs.
Privacy is terrorism.
Normally I wouldn't even dignify this with a response, but I assume you've never actually spent any appreciable amount of time in South Africa? Or Africa in general? Or if you have, or are still, you need to pull your head out of the sand rickytick, because you obviously don't have a clue.
I don't see any factual information in your response that makes it look like you are speaking from a position of authority on the matter. In fact, the details of your response indicate that all you know about SA is what you've read in liberal newspapers and heard from like-minded people.
I strongly recommend you spend a little time on youtube, looking at videos from local TV broadcasts, check out the link in my original post and associated links, and then try and stretch your tiny mind out of the box and read between the lines. It's not about black and white, I never said it was. That was just an interesting correlation, which has been seen in every other country in Africa. There's a class struggle going on here as well, which has a LOT to do with the crime rate.
Have you read "Capitalist Nigger" or "Atlas Shrugged"? Do you support Communism? Marxism? Thought not. We are not fully to blame for the current position of those downtrodden masses. And slowly, the grass-roots level are starting to realise it (government changed hands, and wtf?! we're worse off than before! where's the nice house you promised me? and the BMW? and the swimming pool? and the free education? and the high paying job?).
Slowly, but surely, they are starting to realise that they can't vote the current government out (there's only one real Black party (the ANC), and they're already running the show). You don't get to vote for a president here, you vote for the party, and the party chooses the president. Since most are too scared to vote for anyone other than The Party, they're making a rod for their own backs.
Yeah, whites did oppress non-whites. I'm not condoning it. However, even under that "oppression", the facts speak for themselves: Education was better (even though they did burn down their schools because their leaders told them they were getting an inferior education), if you got TB there was an excellent chance it would be cured (not so, now), life expectancy was about 25% longer than it is now, and tho there was grinding poverty (there always will, this is Africa) there were fewer poor people.
Sadly, no matter how much time you allot to it, there will always be people who blame someone else for their current state. Fifty or a hundred years from now, when they're all dying of consumption, speaking Mandarin, and the primary form of transport is a donkey cart, they'll still be pointing their fingers at their "colonial oppressors". Africa is generally a continent of consumers, not generators, and it will stay that way until its people start to own their problems and become responsible for fixing them.
remember to loot and pillage before you burn!