You are mistaken. US criminal law normally goes: accusation, investigation, charge, trial. It's kinda like "Ready aim fire" you get ready before you aim, you aim before you fire, and firing (the sentence, if convicted at trial) comes last.
With Foley we've done accusation and the Investigation is in progress. Many press reports include statements by state and federal agencies (specifically FBI) saying that Foley is under investigation. After that's done the prosecutors (federal, state, and w/legislators possibly special) will decide wether there will be a "criminal or civil case planned" and tell us.
We won't know wether there's a "criminal or civil case planned" until -after- the prosecutors announce it (and that's assuming the statute of limitations runs without anyone finding new evidence), that comes after the investigations are (at least declared) complete.
IMO the guys probably guilty as sin but the public circus this has turned into is really "theater of the absurd" and a LOT of the public reaction really highlights the real lack of basic education about civics that a tremendous number of people seem to suffer from IANAL bk425
This is what's really really really bad about "suvelleince society". Everybodies looking over their shoulder, assuming crap like "Your wife (or big brother) could be looking at your browser history." Instead of asking themselves; is it -RIGHT- that I sit in here alone while that human I promised to love and treasure is lonely in the next room. It's not an examination of responsibility, it's a reaction to fear.
This kind of thinking (constant observation) doesn't lead to an ethical society, it kills the very idea of ethics. bk425
Setting expectations is a critical part of sales and support. If your customers have unreasonable expectations about your product/service you have some responsibility for that (or, at least the support and sales staff they've been in contact with do). I agree that you should "drop them" but you need to do it in a way that leaves them open to revisiting the whole thing one day. Don't just throw up your hands and toss their money back at them, own the mistake that was made when the product/services capabilities was -not- made clear. Apologize (not in a snarky way thank you) for screwing up their expectations unrealistically and thank them for trying as you hand their money back.
By extinguishing the bridge rather then pumping gas onto it, after they try the competition and find it worse still, you might still earn the right to win them back. Don't screw it up the second time. bk425
As a college newspaper editor, every new quarter I had 20-60 new "reporters" whose teachers required them to write (at least one) article for our weekly. They were learning -writing-, some were learning layout and advertising, NONE of them were there to learn how to operate a computer. Mac OS6 was awesome. I sat them down in front of our meager supply of mac SE's and after a half hour introduction and maybe a half hour on their own they were composing stories on my systems that other students setup in quark express. We did automatic copy flow on 9 inch screens with inexperienced learners and got awards. It was awesome for our needs.
When I started that I was also employed in the student computer labs. The Mac lab and the PC lab. On the dark side we were running win 3.1 (for a short while). Guess which hardware had a much higher failure rate and wich systems required -orders of magnitude- more maintenance? And no, Win95 did not help. Me and -one- other student employee... Tom had a lot more patience with IRQs at that time then I did and I gotta admit I probably should have taken his advice to join him in PSS (of course they didn't call it PSS then...) but I'd have had to do a lot of "smoking" to cope with that stuff and since I don't smoke anything (family history of cancer) windows just wasn't the route for me back then.
That's funny "you are trying to buy to much stuff" seems to be a common complaint from businesses. Obviously when I show up and they can't even pay a human being wages to take my credit card and ask me if I found everything, I am "trying to buy to much stuff". When (not to NAME home depotor anything...) I have to chase down an employee on the other side of the 70,00 square foot warehouse (with 80,000 units of an item I don't need and no 90 degree copper elbows) so they can radio for someone to find plumbing and point me to the putty, then I am "trying to buy to much stuff". It's understandable and maybe even endearing to tune into a tech harbor like/. and find people trying to solve problems with self checkout systems but ulimately there are problems that are simply not technological in nature. bk425
The post you replied to didn't say anything about equipment. What you get for the extra 1700 (at least in the Seattle area) is a surgeon with surgeon style stuff.
In the discount operations you have a doctor who quickly cycles people through a LASIK machine or two. It's extremely efficient and the extremely rare emergency would require a bandage and ambulance ride to an opthalmic surgeon.
In the more expensive places you have a surgeon with an opthalmic surgical suite with a LASIK device in it. In the unlikely event that something goes amiss you don't move, the stuff moves around you. If someone -wants- to pay the doctor 1700 more to maintain an actual surgical suite why shouldn't they? It's their money, it's their vision. Be happy you paid less and move on. Don't begrudge other people their choices.
My risks are -my- choice. BK425 (geek, motorcyclist, handgun competitor, hope-to-be pilot, all around sensitive new age guy)
PS These are real prices in seattle right now, and real examples. The surgical office that I considered, before getting new contacts instead, did not advertise at all. Actually they normally have a waiting list. (When I asked my optometrist forked over a pamphlett)
I volunteer for a non profit with four paid staff (and around 10,000 "members"). Every other weekend, they pack up their office staff and network and move to a show venue where members must be able to renew annual membership. I would not run anything other then a laptop in that situation.
Our laptop server is a win2k server with domain controller and ms sql server for 2-8 data entry personnel. It was setup this way before I volunteered, it works great for their situation. I would like to change the clunky nightly backup system for an easier to use scheduled network backup, and I'd like to find a more compact and secure way to transport 10 laptops... there are several incremental improvements I'd like to make but none of them would put the servers functions back onto a less physically rugged less compact workstation.
You were kidding with this part: "The hacker spirit is an undying desire to know; a hacker never settles for 'black box' explanations or shies away from knowledge because it's too hard." Right? Never settles for black box explanations? You've got what, maybe 40 or 60 years on this planet, you think you're going to work on a large project and not "settle for black box" explanations? That's why languages have modularity, to -empower- you to accept black boxes. Sure, ya wanna peak inside. And when you've done the work you need to do then go for it. But... this is a little silly IMHO. bk425
No no, that's International Business Machines US or Watson computing Devices Germany ; )
(And no, I don't believe that IBM was responsible for the outcome of Polands more efficient rail system. Though I know I wouldn't have worked there then.)
My parents had me when they were in their early 30's, certainly a "normal" time to begin a family. Then my dad died of cancer when I was 7. Life hands you surprises, the thing that matters is how you handle them.
Some of us judge people for having children (that they can well afford to support) late in life. Others realize that "late in life" doesn't always happen at a predictable age.
Miss you dad, but glad to be here. -Boyd
I imagine that -might- happen, but this is starting to seem esoteric to the point of... unlikeliness. Fwiw I work for a 20 person company in Seattles Pioneer sqaure district in a brick building on the historic roster... our radiators were removed on the verge of failing I think, probably 10 years ago.
At home I have hot water baseboards that I routinely block with styrofoam, with steam radiators maybe you couldn't do that. At some point though, all of this neat "what could we do if..." and "lets find the cheapest solution for..." comes down to: Will you burn up 20k or more worth of servers to avoid calling someone with expertise in heating systems?
I'm not -really- that interested in HVAC. The Mech E's who are, have experience and skills that are worth the money that businesses pay for them. I originally posted because I thought the relation to computing was interesting, but... if you -really- put a server room in a building with valveless steam radiators... I don't think your problem is amenable to "hacking" on the cheap. Or in the long run even related much to your heating system. Certainly plastic painters sheets aren't going to solve it ; )
That's really it for me, I promise to post no more forever on slashdot about HVAC engineering. (And tomorrow I scout out how to post privately to one person.) BK425
Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying there's a server room with a (non pentium) heater going into it? I've never seen anything like that. I would imagine that if it's not on a seperate zone (ie it's own thermostat) you could just block the airflow from the furnace to that room and have an HVAC guy rebalance the airflow to other vents in the zone. But, I've never seen a room intended for servers, that had an actual furnace attached to it.
Other posters on this thread have suggested that having datacenters in Siberia or Alaska might be a good idea. This is not new. Alaska advertises several secure datacenters that were started with public bonds. Uninteruptible power takes on a whole new meaning when you're within pipeline distance of a natural gas field and wire distance of a coal plant. And at least for the one that I read about the entire facility was normally heated from the heat stripped off the server spaces by airconditioning (heat pumps). Connecting a heater to a server room would be a bad idea imo.
More importantly, in terms of AC, "only has to work on pumping the excess heat from the servers out, and not cooling the whole room" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The size of the space isn't as important as the heat load. Put another way, that empty space isn't making any heat, it doesn't really present any work for the AC to do.
One other possibility would be to use plasterboard fastened to structural members (sometimes they're called "2x4s" or "metal studs" that are surrounded by insulation. I think they call this... walls.
Or, make a nice spreadsheet of time costs (I'm hoping you were paid when called in to shovel melted cpu off the floor) and costs of replacement systems and have the system built properly.
I'll let a skeleton out of the closet here (sheild your eyes) I know some accountants... the accountants I know like to account. They wouldn't hide from quantifying repair costs for systems that fail and down time costs for systems that are shut down (orderly or not) for lack of air conditioning.
I think as engineering types we love to mcgyver things but there comes a time to step back, look at the bigger picture and -say- "this ain't makin a lot of sense here". Plastic sheets, cardboard, et al... it's real inventive I'm sure, but it isn't -walls-.
They make walls out of plasterboard, structural material and insulation for a -reason-. Sure, they didn't cover those reasons in our CS courses but I bet there are reasons nonetheless...
Not that I have any opinions ; ) but the workers that 'go along with it' are behaving every bit as unethically as the employers. When I'm elected king of the universe employees who enable this evil will be just as guilty of crime as the employers asking for their servitude.
Really, if someone asks you to be a slave and you say "okily dokily" because being a slave for that person is better then finding a new job then you are spitting on the graves of people everywhere who fought and gave their lives to end servitude and oppression.
The problem is that it adds to the overhead of doing a transaction. It's like a tax on leading your economic life. Price negotiation makes sense with some items, few people expect to buy a car without coming to an agreement about price. But when you get out of work late and run by the local store because you're out of T.P.... do you want to have a discussion with the proprietor about the cost? You purchase far to many things every day to be able to reasonably re negotiate the price of each thing every time you buy it. To illustrate this, go outside and watch your electric meter for a minute : ) How much did that watt-hour cost you? That one? It's not a workable plan.
Huh? Variable pricing is very well known, there have been stories here on/. about it before. Go google
amazon "variable pricing"
and see... You didn't think they were custom assembling those web pages only to get you to buy more? It's been common practice with internet sellers for years. BoydK425
The linked BBC article mentions Diebners team (keep in mind both sides often set up competition amongst their engineering and research groups) and that there was likely a functioning reactor in berlin in the final few days or weeks. RTfineM
"current state of the US democracy" Yes, that's part of the problem. We've become very democracy like and just as Franklin said, democracys only last until the public decides it can vote largesse to itself from the public purse. See, we're supposed to be a -republic- but most of the voters over here can't keep that straight.
This is also why the two parties are functionally very similar. They spew out heated rhetoric on the importance of privatizing Social Security and increasing spending on (insert conservative pork here) or the importance of social spending and cutting back on the military but if you look through the smoke and flame of campaign rhetoric what are both parties searching for? More government.
The Dems were quiet about signing on to Patriot I and II but they're looking to control the output of your life just as much as the Reps. And in between the voters run from one pork dispenser to the other all to eager to "get while the gettin's good" not ever paying attention to the fact that the dispenser is hooked into -their- back pockets. So, up your federal witholding citizen, no need to pay attention to that April 15th bill. Just plug in to your local politicos' recommended daily allowance of face time and get worked up about the rhetorical farce du jour. That's right, there's no hose going into your wallet. That's just you doing your "fair share".
I joined ACLU in High school (this was ~20 years ago for me) and kept at it during college and through my first job. At a well known software company in Seattle (whose REflection(tm) emulators are still the best) I helped Joan round up donations for the state calendar and a couple years later bought a page in the state orgs calendar in my mom's memory.
I would LOVE to support Washington and national ACLU. But I can't do it. I can't bring myself to write a check to an organization for whom some of our civil rights are more equal then others. And it's not like I want them to go out and fight for my second amendment rights, heck no. I itch to send them money when I see stories like this and coping with things like this would make me proud to be a member (and supporter and volunteer) but that they go out of their way to DENY the plain truth of the second amendment, you know the one right there underlying the first amendment, is just too hypocritical. Sorry, anybody finds a civil rights org that fights things like Patriot Act -and- will at least say there is a basic human right to self defense... I got a hundred bucks on the desk waiting to mail to them. BoydK425
Exactly, so the problem isn't the hysterical mom or the predator registry it's that you (and I, if I actually agreed) aren't changing that "retarded" law. Don't fix the band-aids, fix the problem.
Slashdot Mirror
You are mistaken. US criminal law normally goes: accusation, investigation, charge, trial. It's kinda like "Ready aim fire" you get ready before you aim, you aim before you fire, and firing (the sentence, if convicted at trial) comes last.
With Foley we've done accusation and the Investigation is in progress. Many press reports include statements by state and federal agencies (specifically FBI) saying that Foley is under investigation. After that's done the prosecutors (federal, state, and w/legislators possibly special) will decide wether there will be a "criminal or civil case planned" and tell us.
We won't know wether there's a "criminal or civil case planned" until -after- the prosecutors announce it (and that's assuming the statute of limitations runs without anyone finding new evidence), that comes after the investigations are (at least declared) complete.
IMO the guys probably guilty as sin but the public circus this has turned into is really "theater of the absurd" and a LOT of the public reaction really highlights the real lack of basic education about civics that a tremendous number of people seem to suffer from IANAL bk425
This is what's really really really bad about "suvelleince society". Everybodies looking over their shoulder, assuming crap like "Your wife (or big brother) could be looking at your browser history." Instead of asking themselves; is it -RIGHT- that I sit in here alone while that human I promised to love and treasure is lonely in the next room. It's not an examination of responsibility, it's a reaction to fear.
This kind of thinking (constant observation) doesn't lead to an ethical society, it kills the very idea of ethics. bk425
Setting expectations is a critical part of sales and support. If your customers have unreasonable expectations about your product/service you have some responsibility for that (or, at least the support and sales staff they've been in contact with do). I agree that you should "drop them" but you need to do it in a way that leaves them open to revisiting the whole thing one day. Don't just throw up your hands and toss their money back at them, own the mistake that was made when the product/services capabilities was -not- made clear. Apologize (not in a snarky way thank you) for screwing up their expectations unrealistically and thank them for trying as you hand their money back.
By extinguishing the bridge rather then pumping gas onto it, after they try the competition and find it worse still, you might still earn the right to win them back. Don't screw it up the second time. bk425
As a college newspaper editor, every new quarter I had 20-60 new "reporters" whose teachers required them to write (at least one) article for our weekly. They were learning -writing-, some were learning layout and advertising, NONE of them were there to learn how to operate a computer. Mac OS6 was awesome. I sat them down in front of our meager supply of mac SE's and after a half hour introduction and maybe a half hour on their own they were composing stories on my systems that other students setup in quark express. We did automatic copy flow on 9 inch screens with inexperienced learners and got awards. It was awesome for our needs.
When I started that I was also employed in the student computer labs. The Mac lab and the PC lab. On the dark side we were running win 3.1 (for a short while). Guess which hardware had a much higher failure rate and wich systems required -orders of magnitude- more maintenance? And no, Win95 did not help. Me and -one- other student employee... Tom had a lot more patience with IRQs at that time then I did and I gotta admit I probably should have taken his advice to join him in PSS (of course they didn't call it PSS then...) but I'd have had to do a lot of "smoking" to cope with that stuff and since I don't smoke anything (family history of cancer) windows just wasn't the route for me back then.
That's funny "you are trying to buy to much stuff" seems to be a common complaint from businesses. /. and find people trying to solve problems with self checkout systems but ulimately there are problems that are simply not technological in nature. bk425
Obviously when I show up and they can't even pay a human being wages to take my credit card and ask me if I found everything, I am "trying to buy to much stuff". When (not to NAME home depotor anything...) I have to chase down an employee on the other side of the 70,00 square foot warehouse (with 80,000 units of an item I don't need and no 90 degree copper elbows) so they can radio for someone to find plumbing and point me to the putty, then I am "trying to buy to much stuff".
It's understandable and maybe even endearing to tune into a tech harbor like
Cool where's the line for 44 year old fat guys? : )
yeah, well some of us weren't as smart at 18 as we are now...
The post you replied to didn't say anything about equipment. What you get for the extra 1700 (at least in the Seattle area) is a surgeon with surgeon style stuff.
In the discount operations you have a doctor who quickly cycles people through a LASIK machine or two. It's extremely efficient and the extremely rare emergency would require a bandage and ambulance ride to an opthalmic surgeon.
In the more expensive places you have a surgeon with an opthalmic surgical suite with a LASIK device in it. In the unlikely event that something goes amiss you don't move, the stuff moves around you. If someone -wants- to pay the doctor 1700 more to maintain an actual surgical suite why shouldn't they? It's their money, it's their vision. Be happy you paid less and move on. Don't begrudge other people their choices.
My risks are -my- choice. BK425 (geek, motorcyclist, handgun competitor, hope-to-be pilot, all around sensitive new age guy)
PS These are real prices in seattle right now, and real examples. The surgical office that I considered, before getting new contacts instead, did not advertise at all. Actually they normally have a waiting list. (When I asked my optometrist forked over a pamphlett)
I volunteer for a non profit with four paid staff (and around 10,000 "members"). Every other weekend, they pack up their office staff and network and move to a show venue where members must be able to renew annual membership. I would not run anything other then a laptop in that situation.
Our laptop server is a win2k server with domain controller and ms sql server for 2-8 data entry personnel. It was setup this way before I volunteered, it works great for their situation. I would like to change the clunky nightly backup system for an easier to use scheduled network backup, and I'd like to find a more compact and secure way to transport 10 laptops... there are several incremental improvements I'd like to make but none of them would put the servers functions back onto a less physically rugged less compact workstation.
You were kidding with this part:
"The hacker spirit is an undying desire to know; a hacker never settles for 'black box' explanations or shies away from knowledge because it's too hard."
Right? Never settles for black box explanations? You've got what, maybe 40 or 60 years on this planet, you think you're going to work on a large project and not "settle for black box" explanations? That's why languages have modularity, to -empower- you to accept black boxes. Sure, ya wanna peak inside. And when you've done the work you need to do then go for it. But... this is a little silly IMHO. bk425
'zactly. The Security council is about 4/5ths evil on any given day.
No no, that's International Business Machines US or Watson computing Devices Germany ; )
(And no, I don't believe that IBM was responsible for the outcome of Polands more efficient rail system. Though I know I wouldn't have worked there then.)
My parents had me when they were in their early 30's, certainly a "normal" time to begin a family. Then my dad died of cancer when I was 7. Life hands you surprises, the thing that matters is how you handle them.
Some of us judge people for having children (that they can well afford to support) late in life. Others realize that "late in life" doesn't always happen at a predictable age.
Miss you dad, but glad to be here. -Boyd
I imagine that -might- happen, but this is starting to seem esoteric to the point of... unlikeliness. Fwiw I work for a 20 person company in Seattles Pioneer sqaure district in a brick building on the historic roster... our radiators were removed on the verge of failing I think, probably 10 years ago.
At home I have hot water baseboards that I routinely block with styrofoam, with steam radiators maybe you couldn't do that. At some point though, all of this neat "what could we do if..." and "lets find the cheapest solution for..." comes down to: Will you burn up 20k or more worth of servers to avoid calling someone with expertise in heating systems?
I'm not -really- that interested in HVAC. The Mech E's who are, have experience and skills that are worth the money that businesses pay for them. I originally posted because I thought the relation to computing was interesting, but... if you -really- put a server room in a building with valveless steam radiators... I don't think your problem is amenable to "hacking" on the cheap. Or in the long run even related much to your heating system. Certainly plastic painters sheets aren't going to solve it ; )
That's really it for me, I promise to post no more forever on slashdot about HVAC engineering. (And tomorrow I scout out how to post privately to one person.) BK425
Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying there's a server room with a (non pentium) heater going into it? I've never seen anything like that. I would imagine that if it's not on a seperate zone (ie it's own thermostat) you could just block the airflow from the furnace to that room and have an HVAC guy rebalance the airflow to other vents in the zone.
But, I've never seen a room intended for servers, that had an actual furnace attached to it.
Other posters on this thread have suggested that having datacenters in Siberia or Alaska might be a good idea. This is not new. Alaska advertises several secure datacenters that were started with public bonds. Uninteruptible power takes on a whole new meaning when you're within pipeline distance of a natural gas field and wire distance of a coal plant. And at least for the one that I read about the entire facility was normally heated from the heat stripped off the server spaces by airconditioning (heat pumps). Connecting a heater to a server room would be a bad idea imo.
More importantly, in terms of AC, "only has to work on pumping the excess heat from the servers out, and not cooling the whole room" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The size of the space isn't as important as the heat load. Put another way, that empty space isn't making any heat, it doesn't really present any work for the AC to do.
One other possibility would be to use plasterboard fastened to structural members (sometimes they're called "2x4s" or "metal studs" that are surrounded by insulation. I think they call this ... walls.
Or, make a nice spreadsheet of time costs (I'm hoping you were paid when called in to shovel melted cpu off the floor) and costs of replacement systems and have the system built properly.
I'll let a skeleton out of the closet here (sheild your eyes) I know some accountants... the accountants I know like to account. They wouldn't hide from quantifying repair costs for systems that fail and down time costs for systems that are shut down (orderly or not) for lack of air conditioning.
I think as engineering types we love to mcgyver things but there comes a time to step back, look at the bigger picture and -say- "this ain't makin a lot of sense here". Plastic sheets, cardboard, et al... it's real inventive I'm sure, but it isn't -walls-.
They make walls out of plasterboard, structural material and insulation for a -reason-. Sure, they didn't cover those reasons in our CS courses but I bet there are reasons nonetheless...
Not that I have any opinions ; ) but the workers that 'go along with it' are behaving every bit as unethically as the employers. When I'm elected king of the universe employees who enable this evil will be just as guilty of crime as the employers asking for their servitude.
Really, if someone asks you to be a slave and you say "okily dokily" because being a slave for that person is better then finding a new job then you are spitting on the graves of people everywhere who fought and gave their lives to end servitude and oppression.
Ethical people, when confronted with behaviour like this will document it and contact:
http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/home/default.asp
Boydk425, capitalist and ethical person.
Yer not from 'round here are ya? ; )
The problem is that it adds to the overhead of doing a transaction. It's like a tax on leading your economic life. Price negotiation makes sense with some items, few people expect to buy a car without coming to an agreement about price. But when you get out of work late and run by the local store because you're out of T.P. ... do you want to have a discussion with the proprietor about the cost? You purchase far to many things every day to be able to reasonably re negotiate the price of each thing every time you buy it.
To illustrate this, go outside and watch your electric meter for a minute : ) How much did that watt-hour cost you? That one? It's not a workable plan.
Huh? Variable pricing is very well known, there have been stories here on /. about it before. Go google
amazon "variable pricing"
and see... You didn't think they were custom assembling those web pages only to get you to buy more? It's been common practice with internet sellers for years. BoydK425
The linked BBC article mentions Diebners team (keep in mind both sides often set up competition amongst their engineering and research groups) and that there was likely a functioning reactor in berlin in the final few days or weeks. RTfineM
"current state of the US democracy" Yes, that's part of the problem. We've become very democracy like and just as Franklin said, democracys only last until the public decides it can vote largesse to itself from the public purse. See, we're supposed to be a -republic- but most of the voters over here can't keep that straight.
This is also why the two parties are functionally very similar. They spew out heated rhetoric on the importance of privatizing Social Security and increasing spending on (insert conservative pork here) or the importance of social spending and cutting back on the military but if you look through the smoke and flame of campaign rhetoric what are both parties searching for? More government.
The Dems were quiet about signing on to Patriot I and II but they're looking to control the output of your life just as much as the Reps. And in between the voters run from one pork dispenser to the other all to eager to "get while the gettin's good" not ever paying attention to the fact that the dispenser is hooked into -their- back pockets. So, up your federal witholding citizen, no need to pay attention to that April 15th bill. Just plug in to your local politicos' recommended daily allowance of face time and get worked up about the rhetorical farce du jour. That's right, there's no hose going into your wallet. That's just you doing your "fair share".
I joined ACLU in High school (this was ~20 years ago for me) and kept at it during college and through my first job. At a well known software company in Seattle (whose REflection(tm) emulators are still the best) I helped Joan round up donations for the state calendar and a couple years later bought a page in the state orgs calendar in my mom's memory.
I would LOVE to support Washington and national ACLU. But I can't do it. I can't bring myself to write a check to an organization for whom some of our civil rights are more equal then others. And it's not like I want them to go out and fight for my second amendment rights, heck no. I itch to send them money when I see stories like this and coping with things like this would make me proud to be a member (and supporter and volunteer) but that they go out of their way to DENY the plain truth of the second amendment, you know the one right there underlying the first amendment, is just too hypocritical. Sorry, anybody finds a civil rights org that fights things like Patriot Act -and- will at least say there is a basic human right to self defense... I got a hundred bucks on the desk waiting to mail to them. BoydK425
Exactly, so the problem isn't the hysterical mom or the predator registry it's that you (and I, if I actually agreed) aren't changing that "retarded" law. Don't fix the band-aids, fix the problem.