It's because with other companies such as IBM, they actually give a damn. Their Hardware Maintenance Manuals havent really had much of a record of being sued over regarding access. They absolutely, positively make sure the machine is fixed when they are done. If you're out of warranty, the HMM gives you a second out on fixing things from internal speakers to screen replacement(If you've ever disassembled a T series, it's known that you're going to be spending quite a while with all the wires even if you *do* know what each of them do).
Not every machine carries IDE/SATA. To enough people, a cheap short term solution will never be the case. U320 can do the job, and it may have to the way things work with IDE->SCSI conversions only able to match speed for these initial drives.
You know, there was a time when doing that sort of thing was called treason...
Y'know, a certain Yalie named The Beast who's got many of his own demonspawn in offices all over seems to grant Rove a nice exemption from treason. Go back to the LGF, and stay back in your nice little Yale-styled gated community.
I'd settle for the entirety of Yale campus, but I dont know if that'd just give more acreage for the Skull and Bones group. Was that what you were aiming towards having in place?
Let me guess, the shipping terms are secret, the price is classified as TS, and the site (if you ever find it) is classified as NOFORN (no foreign nationals). Which amounts to a mystery box of unknown proportions, with unknown contents, that arrives out of thin air, which only exists as an extra item on your next 1040, called "Gifts". Sounds like you're advertising Pandora's Box.
weapons of mass destruction Buy It Cheap On eBay Low Prices, New and Used But arent WMD's kind of the 1-use items? I dont think you can detonate the same nuclear bomb twice nor can you use mustard gas canisters completely twice. It's kind of hard to put the genie back in the bottle without using a wish or violating the laws of physics to do it.
Even 14"/15" thin laptops (such as T42/T42p) can exceed that 90W inverter if only by a small margin(92W versus 90W). They arent the 21" behemoths, but they do take power. Besides, they'd already account for full power usage (and have the ability to shut it off if needed).
If you've lived next to and/or worked for a multinational, you have seen this kind of factory buildup - examples being NCR and IBM (to name two random offenders amongst them all) that did the same thing as some have suggested - uproot and move to anywhere else that has the least ethical cost. Both examples had a major US presence, valuing the workers until Reagan and Thatcher reworded "corporate favortism" into "competition". That's when things went to countries such as China (that do nothing but keep themselves artificially cheaper, or have rubber stamped CMM-5's that cost companies more than domestic talent did).
What you see in China will meet the same fate with even more dire consequences for a population that cannot even question the problem. If there are any benefits at the end for pulling these kind of stunts, I might as well sign up and be frozen for the next 500 years and maybe have a chance at seeing any perceived benefits.
-No. In other words, perhaps if workers did what they were paid for (high-quality output) versus simply throwing pieces together in a "screw the company" mentality to just get their paycheck at the end of the week, then everybody would see a benefit. Lower returns to the producer, happier consumer, lower prices, all that good stuff. My point is that workers aren't holding up their end of the deal.
Maybe you need to see the other side of the equation, where human rights in the workplace can generate profits.
Example - NCR, pre and post globalization are two different animals, the latter being only a shell of a profitable company.
NCR during the days of allowing human rights up until the early 1980s had performed well - without having unions, but actually promoting the welfare of the worker by providing nearly everything the worker needed, from housing(a bit extreme now, but in some ages that was a godsend) to a private university education (which can thwart the "Company Store" argument, and that the university was separate from NCR). These days, the corporation has been bought and spun off from AT&T, demolished the near entirety of their campus and sold nearly all of it to a university(part of it is thankfully in the hands of a newspaper) that now is nothing but an exclusive party school(with a pricetag that prices most of the 40k average out at 31k). What happened other than a major amount of toxic chemicals was the gradual phasing out of human rights that ran up to the grand finale in the 1990s with the health care/retirement controversy.
Now they're just reduced to a minor footnote of a company that once paralleled IBM with products that proudly matched the high quality of their workers(notwithstanding the health concerns). The only thing they do is repackage low quality products like ECS boards into expensive solutions, or breathe life into ATMs(which are ironically the highest quality construction of their products by intention).
Look across the nation and world(specifically the UK) and you'll see examples much like this, all with the same ironic downward spiral that began with Thatcher/Reagan up to today with the job nearly complete in worker rights reversal. I'm amazed that they did so in such short time.
When they perform quality work, they should be rewarded. When unionized workers slack off, think of how long it takes to fire one of these morons? Major example is with the police.
With lower paying jobs, the protection is needed, it's not like you can't come up with some workaround like y'all did with "Buy America" (*cough*New Flyer/AM General/MAN of Germany*cough*), requirements to hire US workers(as seen later on), and offshoring(the REAL slogan of Hewlett "Hurd's just as bad as Fiorina" Packard). The police in particular are guaranteed a job short of major law violations- would you rather have them worrying about job security more or enforcing the law more- there being not really any room for anything else?
Your argument for communism is totally out of whack. Specifically Marxism is the best form of theoretical government. But as we all know, 'it aint happenin'.
2006, 2008, 2010, 2012. It wont be Marxism taking over, but we'll at least correct the corporate imbalance on a more permanent basis this time.
America is America, money talks, bullshit walks, and I can speak as a business owner when I say that I will pay a worker his worth. I won't pay somebody 3x what they are worth. Nor will I pay them less. But you seem to leave out the business owners in your equation.
Yet your kind cares not to pay even the fair worth, uses such tricks as "requirements exceeding existence of skills" to get around regulation to hire foreign workers, drives companies into deliberate bankruptcy to attempt to void union contracts, and buys up legislation that defangs anyone that wants to unionize in even the most deser
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages
Correction:
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages so they could get around the Buy America act by having a US presence.
There. Fixed that significant error for you.
It's easy to build factories in the US when you can manufacture union-hostile sentiment, circumvent regulation, and build vehicles that end up self-compacting and self entombing the occupants lest they get in a simultaneous front & rear or frontal collision. No thanks, I'll take a decently sized vehicle where human rights and jobs are respected at the non-executive levels.
Thanks to corporation friendly bankruptcy laws, his company wants to go bankrupt, but not count foreign assets as a part of tax evasion. Never mind that those operations are doing quite fine thanks to currency dumping and repeated union bashing.
The damage that the janitor supposedly does is a heck of a lot better to take instead of the executive that can manipulate markets without any moral obstructions. When you screw around with your workers, this is what you get.
I'll gladly take any of the "$20/h Janitor) products (especially pre-NAFTA US/Non Globalized Europe based vehicles) any day over worker hostile economies such as any of the countries from India to Japan.
They could sell ads that take the place of redacted text. But then the original text still is there though, and what would you advertise on an NSA memo?
For that kind of pricing, you'd be even better off running a 10-12man farming outfit in Lineage II. Heck, with the GM's that outright assist botting, you dont have to worry about the inexistent ban once you've reached the break-even point.
With the goldfarmers, it's going to be a bit hard to explain why your neighbor dwarf is speaking in Mandarin(on an US server, at least keep to languages/IP's of European/American origin) why he has a ton of mages go around (with the GM's Heavenly Mandate) dropping raidmobs and screwing with the economy.
If you don't like their policies, DON'T BUY THEIR MUSIC! Unfortunately at this level that wont work given a critical mass of pro-business, pro-??AA lobbyists, and citizens that dont know any better. Besides, it might just allow them to know that DRM'd music is amounting to damaged goods.
Given how the exorbitant price for Blackhat includes Defcon admission for free, it's not like it wont appear over on the Riviera hours if not a day after.
I'd rather Sun focus on hardware I actually want to run, not crap I find in the back of my closet. Well, that's why I'm not asking about sun4c's and the VME machines. Heck, their competitors have done well with - IBM's AIX 5.1 supports their equivalent of Sun's IPC/IPX's, and throws in features that at least give the oldest IBM 70xx's the "swan song" release. That means that they gave older machines at least some of the newer features despite being relatively undocumented and dropped from support next release.
(TEN... YEARS... that's back to 486 days in the Intel world) That's back to when PREP and Microchannel CHRP machines were beginning to be supported, not in the "ancient but supported in a relatively recent release" of AIX. If you havent guessed, that's where I moved to escape the Sun HCL game. It's more or less to warn people that if you're going to go Sun, get the longest support contract possible (long enough to warrant an extension of hardware support beyond their normal cycle) and to make sure that no hardware can be HCL'ed out until the end of the contract.
They didn't just sort of stop supporting the stuff, they dropped 32-bit support entirely from the S10 kernel. That means the sun4m, sun4c, and early edition of ultrasparc machines are impossible to use. It also means no expensive engineer time spent trying to deal with 32/64 bit issues in existing code.
Or they could just put all of Build 22 up(the last sun4m release) and put a huge warning that this is a release for the 32bit end, with the explicit part that some parts do not work despite being a buildable, runnable system. Just put all of it in there as a build of its own (Unless they could just release Solaris 9 + ZX & S24 code - same terms and intent that it is intended for 32bit sun4's), which could be built from source(from a sun4u if they have to add a hurdle), but does not have dtrace(hardware limitation), and may not have certain features related to KCF. That's enough of a compromise for those who have that hardware, and wouldnt mind just being able to give their Quad Ross SS/20 a relatively secure (having sadmind bugs just for full ZX acceleration isnt my idea of security) setup that lets them run their Sparcstation as intended (with Solaris)
To bmc, the "it could be done, but he didnt bow to the gods" keeper of the code: It's not that biblical of a task to do some the above or the suggestion of documentation down below, bmc - the legal bits could be the largest of any challenges. It's not like I didnt hear that you didnt like how I was asking it in some irc channel. Saw the
list reply and the irc messages that sort of gave away who you were talking to.
Or run OpenBSD on them. OpenBSD loves the 4m. It's ironically the only thing that runs reliably with one of the buggiest sun4m's - the SS5/170. Look up turbosparc cache bug, that should point you towards the bugs that the machine had that were fixed only in OpenBSD for a long while. The only catch is that ZX and S24 cards (decent cards for the task) are dog slow to run given the complete lack of documentation (which is what the people behind OpenBSD ask to have) on anything regarding the chip's use beyond a slow 2d frame buffer. If one ends up running OpenBSD, at least dont make their developers worse off for the hardware documentation.
If anything could be released that wasnt a full release of OpenSolaris/sun4, would be the documentation to drive about every sbus/afx card that has no documentation or incomplete documentation. Then it would be a nonissue to deal with 32bit machines.
Somehow they have an obsession with making some products invite-only, yet only a minority of them public. Brin, DiBona, Bukakke(intentional error), you might want to see that the world isnt just made of exclusive colleges. You can stop using that euphemism called "organically grown network of trusted friends" too.
Sure, you're an entity with the ability to do such, but it's not like people dont see through those euphemisms you have for elitism. Either way, it's a bit of a bad habit to have and publicly announce.
The thing that makes the US great is that we give education to all who seek it. Education is not reserved for a select few, which would immediately breed a caste of the "chosen." Even if a person is not mentally worthy of a higher education, I say the fact that they want one is proof enough of their worthiness.
Unfortunately there is a caste system. Now if you just made things open to all and paid via redirected subsidies, you would have a decent way of educating everyone on the highest level. Heck, you might even have a better economy for not beating the masses down for once.
I partially understand what you are saying, and yes, there should be a seperation between the average, and the higher than average. The smartest people get to go to Harvard, Yale and MIT. The average get to chose from any number of local universities or community colleges. But everyone should get an opportunity to learn. It is a basic fundamental of democracy and helps bridge the gap between races, classes, genders and religions.
Unfortunately this is where you have it wrong on the worst levels. The kind of levels that have such oddities in our administration that use Non-Ivies as pawns and exclusionary colleges as a determination of how high you should go. Education is one of the things that
If you can name anyone after Nixon with that amount of power that actually stood up and expressed vehement hatred(heck, the Enemies List shows with MIT being a rightfully big target) for such elitism in education, I would be very surprised. I bet the names of those today who actually got anywhere meaningful(read public and exclusionary sector jobs) with a "local university" or "community college" could be counted on one hand.
Open admissions seems to work quite well, and what do you get with a lot of people with that knowledge? A good deal of people who know a lot more than what they came in with.
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It's because with other companies such as IBM, they actually give a damn. Their Hardware Maintenance Manuals havent really had much of a record of being sued over regarding access. They absolutely, positively make sure the machine is fixed when they are done. If you're out of warranty, the HMM gives you a second out on fixing things from internal speakers to screen replacement(If you've ever disassembled a T series, it's known that you're going to be spending quite a while with all the wires even if you *do* know what each of them do).
Not every machine carries IDE/SATA. To enough people, a cheap short term solution will never be the case. U320 can do the job, and it may have to the way things work with IDE->SCSI conversions only able to match speed for these initial drives.
You know, there was a time when doing that sort of thing was called treason...
Y'know, a certain Yalie named The Beast who's got many of his own demonspawn in offices all over seems to grant Rove a nice exemption from treason.
Go back to the LGF, and stay back in your nice little Yale-styled gated community.
I'd settle for the entirety of Yale campus, but I dont know if that'd just give more acreage for the Skull and Bones group. Was that what you were aiming towards having in place?
Let me guess, the shipping terms are secret, the price is classified as TS, and the site (if you ever find it) is classified as NOFORN (no foreign nationals). Which amounts to a mystery box of unknown proportions, with unknown contents, that arrives out of thin air, which only exists as an extra item on your next 1040, called "Gifts". Sounds like you're advertising Pandora's Box.
weapons of mass destruction
Buy It Cheap On eBay
Low Prices, New and Used
But arent WMD's kind of the 1-use items? I dont think you can detonate the same nuclear bomb twice nor can you use mustard gas canisters completely twice. It's kind of hard to put the genie back in the bottle without using a wish or violating the laws of physics to do it.
Even 14"/15" thin laptops (such as T42/T42p) can exceed that 90W inverter if only by a small margin(92W versus 90W). They arent the 21" behemoths, but they do take power. Besides, they'd already account for full power usage (and have the ability to shut it off if needed).
If you've lived next to and/or worked for a multinational, you have seen this kind of factory buildup - examples being NCR and IBM (to name two random offenders amongst them all) that did the same thing as some have suggested - uproot and move to anywhere else that has the least ethical cost. Both examples had a major US presence, valuing the workers until Reagan and Thatcher reworded "corporate favortism" into "competition". That's when things went to countries such as China (that do nothing but keep themselves artificially cheaper, or have rubber stamped CMM-5's that cost companies more than domestic talent did).
What you see in China will meet the same fate with even more dire consequences for a population that cannot even question the problem. If there are any benefits at the end for pulling these kind of stunts, I might as well sign up and be frozen for the next 500 years and maybe have a chance at seeing any perceived benefits.
-No. In other words, perhaps if workers did what they were paid for (high-quality output) versus simply throwing pieces together in a "screw the company" mentality to just get their paycheck at the end of the week, then everybody would see a benefit. Lower returns to the producer, happier consumer, lower prices, all that good stuff. My point is that workers aren't holding up their end of the deal.
Maybe you need to see the other side of the equation, where human rights in the workplace can generate profits.
Example - NCR, pre and post globalization are two different animals, the latter being only a shell of a profitable company.
NCR during the days of allowing human rights up until the early 1980s had performed well - without having unions, but actually promoting the welfare of the worker by providing nearly everything the worker needed, from housing(a bit extreme now, but in some ages that was a godsend) to a private university education (which can thwart the "Company Store" argument, and that the university was separate from NCR). These days, the corporation has been bought and spun off from AT&T, demolished the near entirety of their campus and sold nearly all of it to a university(part of it is thankfully in the hands of a newspaper) that now is nothing but an exclusive party school(with a pricetag that prices most of the 40k average out at 31k). What happened other than a major amount of toxic chemicals was the gradual phasing out of human rights that ran up to the grand finale in the 1990s with the health care/retirement controversy.
Now they're just reduced to a minor footnote of a company that once paralleled IBM with products that proudly matched the high quality of their workers(notwithstanding the health concerns). The only thing they do is repackage low quality products like ECS boards into expensive solutions, or breathe life into ATMs(which are ironically the highest quality construction of their products by intention).
Look across the nation and world(specifically the UK) and you'll see examples much like this, all with the same ironic downward spiral that began with Thatcher/Reagan up to today with the job nearly complete in worker rights reversal. I'm amazed that they did so in such short time.
When they perform quality work, they should be rewarded. When unionized workers slack off, think of how long it takes to fire one of these morons? Major example is with the police.
With lower paying jobs, the protection is needed, it's not like you can't come up with some workaround like y'all did with "Buy America" (*cough*New Flyer/AM General/MAN of Germany*cough*), requirements to hire US workers(as seen later on), and offshoring(the REAL slogan of Hewlett "Hurd's just as bad as Fiorina" Packard). The police in particular are guaranteed a job short of major law violations- would you rather have them worrying about job security more or enforcing the law more- there being not really any room for anything else?
Your argument for communism is totally out of whack. Specifically Marxism is the best form of theoretical government. But as we all know, 'it aint happenin'.
2006, 2008, 2010, 2012. It wont be Marxism taking over, but we'll at least correct the corporate imbalance on a more permanent basis this time.
America is America, money talks, bullshit walks, and I can speak as a business owner when I say that I will pay a worker his worth. I won't pay somebody 3x what they are worth. Nor will I pay them less. But you seem to leave out the business owners in your equation.
Yet your kind cares not to pay even the fair worth, uses such tricks as "requirements exceeding existence of skills" to get around regulation to hire foreign workers, drives companies into deliberate bankruptcy to attempt to void union contracts, and buys up legislation that defangs anyone that wants to unionize in even the most deser
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages
Correction:
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages so they could get around the Buy America act by having a US presence.
There. Fixed that significant error for you.
It's easy to build factories in the US when you can manufacture union-hostile sentiment, circumvent regulation, and build vehicles that end up self-compacting and self entombing the occupants lest they get in a simultaneous front & rear or frontal collision. No thanks, I'll take a decently sized vehicle where human rights and jobs are respected at the non-executive levels.
Thanks to corporation friendly bankruptcy laws, his company wants to go bankrupt, but not count foreign assets as a part of tax evasion. Never mind that those operations are doing quite fine thanks to currency dumping and repeated union bashing.
The damage that the janitor supposedly does is a heck of a lot better to take instead of the executive that can manipulate markets without any moral obstructions. When you screw around with your workers, this is what you get.
I'll gladly take any of the "$20/h Janitor) products (especially pre-NAFTA US/Non Globalized Europe based vehicles) any day over worker hostile economies such as any of the countries from India to Japan.
They could sell ads that take the place of redacted text. But then the original text still is there though, and what would you advertise on an NSA memo?
I doubt that's going to help them find any "intelligence leaks" coming from the Democratic Party, much less find them at the speed of sound.
For that kind of pricing, you'd be even better off running a 10-12man farming outfit in Lineage II. Heck, with the GM's that outright assist botting, you dont have to worry about the inexistent ban once you've reached the break-even point.
A real dad would be playing America's Army.
Dont you mean participating in the US Army?
With the goldfarmers, it's going to be a bit hard to explain why your neighbor dwarf is speaking in Mandarin(on an US server, at least keep to languages/IP's of European/American origin) why he has a ton of mages go around (with the GM's Heavenly Mandate) dropping raidmobs and screwing with the economy.
If you don't like their policies, DON'T BUY THEIR MUSIC!
Unfortunately at this level that wont work given a critical mass of pro-business, pro-??AA lobbyists, and citizens that dont know any better. Besides, it might just allow them to know that DRM'd music is amounting to damaged goods.
They might as well have used SCSI-3/SAS and gained some performance instead of sticking with IDE.
Given how the exorbitant price for Blackhat includes Defcon admission for free, it's not like it wont appear over on the Riviera hours if not a day after.
The kind that has a Right-Wing Rubberstamp Congress.
I'd rather Sun focus on hardware I actually want to run, not crap I find in the back of my closet.
Well, that's why I'm not asking about sun4c's and the VME machines.
Heck, their competitors have done well with - IBM's AIX 5.1 supports their equivalent of Sun's IPC/IPX's, and
throws in features that at least give the oldest IBM 70xx's the "swan song" release. That means that they gave older
machines at least some of the newer features despite being relatively undocumented and dropped from support next
release.
(TEN... YEARS... that's back to 486 days in the Intel world)
That's back to when PREP and Microchannel CHRP machines were beginning to be supported, not in the "ancient but
supported in a relatively recent release" of AIX. If you havent guessed, that's where I moved to escape the Sun
HCL game.
It's more or less to warn people that if you're going to go Sun, get the longest support contract possible (long enough
to warrant an extension of hardware support beyond their normal cycle) and to make sure that no hardware can be HCL'ed
out until the end of the contract.
They didn't just sort of stop supporting the stuff, they dropped 32-bit support entirely from the S10 kernel.
That means the sun4m, sun4c, and early edition of ultrasparc machines are impossible to use. It also means
no expensive engineer time spent trying to deal with 32/64 bit issues in existing code.
Or they could just put all of Build 22 up(the last sun4m release) and put a huge warning that this is a release
for the 32bit end, with the explicit part that some parts do not work despite being a buildable, runnable system.
Just put all of it in there as a build of its own (Unless they could just release Solaris 9 + ZX & S24 code - same
terms and intent that it is intended for 32bit sun4's), which could be built from source(from a sun4u if they
have to add a hurdle), but does not have dtrace(hardware limitation), and may not have certain features related to KCF.
That's enough of a compromise for those who have that hardware, and wouldnt mind just being able to give their Quad
Ross SS/20 a relatively secure (having sadmind bugs just for full ZX acceleration isnt my idea of security) setup that
lets them run their Sparcstation as intended (with Solaris)
To bmc, the "it could be done, but he didnt bow to the gods" keeper of the code:
It's not that biblical of a task to do some the above or the suggestion of documentation down below, bmc - the legal bits could
be the largest of any challenges. It's not like I didnt hear that you didnt like how I was asking it in some irc channel. Saw the
list reply and the irc messages that sort of gave away who you were talking to.
Or run OpenBSD on them. OpenBSD loves the 4m.
It's ironically the only thing that runs reliably with one of the buggiest sun4m's - the SS5/170. Look up turbosparc
cache bug, that should point you towards the bugs that the machine had that were fixed only in OpenBSD for a long while.
The only catch is that ZX and S24 cards (decent cards for the task) are dog slow to run given the complete lack of
documentation (which is what the people behind OpenBSD ask to have) on anything regarding the chip's use beyond a
slow 2d frame buffer. If one ends up running OpenBSD, at least dont make their developers worse off for the
hardware documentation.
If anything could be released that wasnt a full release of OpenSolaris/sun4, would be the documentation to drive
about every sbus/afx card that has no documentation or incomplete documentation. Then it would be a nonissue to deal
with 32bit machines.
Er,
"Given how the exhorbitant price for Blackhat includes Defcon admission for free..." is how it should have read.
Given how the exorbitant price for Blackhat includes that for free, it's not like it wont appear over on the Riviera hours if not a day after.
Somehow they have an obsession with making some products invite-only, yet only a minority of them public. Brin, DiBona, Bukakke(intentional error), you might want to see that the world isnt just made of exclusive colleges. You can stop using that euphemism called "organically grown network of trusted friends" too.
Sure, you're an entity with the ability to do such, but it's not like people dont see through those euphemisms you have for elitism. Either way, it's a bit of a bad habit to have and publicly announce.
The thing that makes the US great is that we give education to all who seek it. Education is not reserved for a select few, which would immediately breed a caste of the "chosen." Even if a person is not mentally worthy of a higher education, I say the fact that they want one is proof enough of their worthiness.
Unfortunately there is a caste system. Now if you just made things open to all and paid via redirected subsidies, you would have a decent way of educating everyone on the highest level. Heck, you might even have a better economy for not beating the masses down for once.
I partially understand what you are saying, and yes, there should be a seperation between the average, and the higher than average. The smartest people get to go to Harvard, Yale and MIT. The average get to chose from any number of local universities or community colleges. But everyone should get an opportunity to learn. It is a basic fundamental of democracy and helps bridge the gap between races, classes, genders and religions.
Unfortunately this is where you have it wrong on the worst levels. The kind of levels that have such oddities in our administration that use Non-Ivies as pawns and exclusionary colleges as a determination of how high you should go. Education is one of the things that
If you can name anyone after Nixon with that amount of power that actually stood up and expressed vehement hatred(heck, the Enemies List shows with MIT being a rightfully big target) for such elitism in education, I would be very surprised. I bet the names of those today who actually got anywhere meaningful(read public and exclusionary sector jobs) with a "local university" or "community college" could be counted on one hand.
Open admissions seems to work quite well, and what do you get with a lot of people with that knowledge? A good deal of people who know a lot more than what they came in with.