That's actually not true. Windows 1.0 was never shipped with any OEM computers, and was never shipped with MS-DOS. However, it was on the market as a standalone package until Apple threatened to sue Microsoft and HP (for NewWave). Apple eventually did, resulting in the long-fought and famous "desktop metaphor" trial.
> Macs and X11 were usable in the 80s, but Windows was a joke until 3.11
I think you're listening to pure hearsay. I doubt you ever ran Windows 3.11. Windows 3.0+286-based Compaq+DOS 3.3+MS Word for Windows+Microsoft Multiplan+Microsoft Powerpoint made a decently usable environment.
Yup, two other promising VB-like apps for Linux include:
Gambas - http://gambas.sourceforge.net
HBasic - http://hbasic.sourceforge.net/
The new version of kdevelop (called gideon, aka kdevelop-cvs) is pretty cool too. In many ways, it goes way beyond VS's capabilities, and in other ways, it falls behind to both VS and Eclipse. It's great overall though.
> C is meant for low level system programming. Why people use it for anything other than low level system functions is beyond me...
Because portage is entirely too slow for embedded systems. We are talking about processors that are one tenth to one-twentith the speed of normal desktop processors.
> A 233 MHz system with 64MB RAM can be used with Windows 9x and Office. It will be UNUSABLE with Linux, KDE or Gnome, and OpenOffice. A newer class of system, say 500 MHz and 256 MB RAM is required for that. Similar to what you would need for Windows 2000.
Uh.. try older versions of KDE then. I used KDE 1.2 for years on my PII 200. It was even released after win9x.
> don't have indoor plumbing, food or basic sanitation"
Which is what most Indians still live under. The divide between the rich (i.e, IT workers who earn very little compared to Western equivs), and the poor (you've got to remember that the average Indian is still involved in farming.. this was true in western countries a long-ass time ago)
> * Stop the rising fascist movement in India. Stop killing each other and write some open-source code instead (or go help clean up the streets if you don't have any skills).
Agreed.
> * 50% below poverty line (above poverty line is defined as getting something to eat --bare survival). Try to do something about it.
agreed. India has the largest amount of people under the poverty line in the world. More than the populations of all western countries (not put together, of course..)
> * 60% illiterate (literacy is attained when one memorises how to draw his name and count money). Do something about it.
I think it was something like 60-70% literacy levels now, lots of improvement. However, this is still way below western levels. Note that some Indian states, such as Kerela, have western (95%) literacy levels.
> * India has one of the fastest growing HIV/AIDS problems in the world. Do something about it before you talk trash about others.
> People of India, do not work with foreigners, strive to help yourselves through charity.
That was actually somewhat like Gandhi's philosophy. The Indian government practiced something like this from 1950 to 1991 (many free market reforms happened that year..)
Unfortunatly, it got India nowhere. Instead, India's population ballooned from 350,000,000 to about 900,000,000, and upteem amounts of poverty was produced. Things have gotten a lot better within the last decade.
> Talking about brains,the whole concept of competition is so ingrained into every muscle of the Average Indian Guy/Gal [AVG] that with zillions of examination, and the peer and parental pressure to succeed, somehow, even the AVG is sound on his fundamentals and concepts.
This might be true of well educated Indians (and certainly is true of most Asians in general..), the average Indian is still a farmer. Even if they went to school, it won't always be through high school. This is what describes men.. for women, it's even worse.
And also, the IT sector of India has pretty much only benefited parts of India. That is, only the states of Karnataka (where Bangalore is) and Andhra Pradesh (where Hydrabad is). Other cities have also benefitied, such as Mumbai, Delhi, and Calcutta, but their states generally have not.
Re:depends on your flavor of nostalgia
on
fvwm Turns Ten
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· Score: 1
If done right, you can configure sawfish to a greater level than you can configure fvwm.
This is, of course, unless fvwm has had large changes in config options within the last five years... I haven't used it much since 1998 or 1999 so.
> Like, say, apps with hybrid command line/graphic interfaces.
KDE can do this-- Konqueror can split views and embed konsole in one... duo cmd line/file manager/web browser/KitchenSync.
> But then again, neither me nor you nor anyone can make Linux developers do this or that; everybody is free to choose what to do with our Linux-hacking time.
Yup. People will work on what they want to, what they are interested in, and what the beleive in.
Re:Windows 3.0 is dead and buried, so should fvwm
on
fvwm Turns Ten
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· Score: 1
> fvwm is simple and it works.
What the hell? You talk about configuration problems with KDE and GNOME, yet fvwm is practically one of the hardest window managers to configure properly.
The latest stable versions of KDE and GNOME, KDE 3.1 and GNOME 2.2, both use fontconfig+xft2+freetype = SAME FONT RENDERING.
Neither Gtk nor Qt do any font rendering by themselves. They both use freetype/xft. Qt just has been doing this for a far longer time (since Qt 2.3), while gtk has had this since gtk 2.0 (gtk 1.x had gdkxft, which was unfortunatly rather hackish:()
Btw, application preferences are based on the user. The only gtk2 app I use regularly is xchat. However, lately, I've been writing a KDE frontend to xchat (whose GUI code is nicely seperated from it's core code), so perhaps that'll go away too:)
Well, I ran Debian for nearly four years, and as a relatively recent switchee, I'd have to definatly recomment it to the class of people who love new software. Debian, when I left it, was quite good, but lacked new software (this was when KDE3, Xfree 4.2, and GNOME2 was missing from unstable)
I thought compiling was wasteful before gentoo, but it's so goddamn transparent that I love it. I just compile things like KDE or Mozilla when I'm sleeping. In exchange, you get a lot of added flexiblity of picking compile options (i.e, doing manual./configure --help;make) with the convenience of automatically installation, dependancy handleing, upgrading, upgrading the whole distro, etc..
Gentoo, and the *BSD ports system, imho, is the best of two worlds.
Re:amazingly, the world of gentoo
on
Gentoo Reviewed
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· Score: 1
I would like FreeBSD, unfortunatly, it has quite a bit more lackluster driver support than Linux does. I'm too addicted to q3 and ut2k3 to give Linux up. I also don't want to fight with software, like wine, to get things to compile flawlessly (which they pretty much always do in Linux, but may not always in FreeBSD, in my experience)
> I think they're very good, and kde in general is getting quite excellent, but the cartoonish appearance simply detracts from what is otherwise a fantastic piece of work. Professionalism? Are cartoonish icons/buttons/widgets professional?
> It's naive to think that you can learn and understand any GUI library consisting of hundreds of classes and thousands of methods within "hours". After a few hours, you can start producing code, but you'll have to refer constantly to the documentation.
The point is that one can be productive in Qt within hours. Many of us who use Qt from day to day still remember this fact. gtk(1.0/1.2) definatly had a much greater learning curve for me. wxWindows was also quite easy to learn, but I think that's because I had previous experience with MFC. I could thus pick up event tables quite easily.
I haven't really used fltk or gtk2, so I can't comment on those.
People can also be quite productive in Cocoa quite quickly. I have not tried GNUstep yet, but it probably carries over to it to.
Slashdot Mirror
That's actually not true. Windows 1.0 was never shipped with any OEM computers, and was never shipped with MS-DOS. However, it was on the market as a standalone package until Apple threatened to sue Microsoft and HP (for NewWave). Apple eventually did, resulting in the long-fought and famous "desktop metaphor" trial.
> Macs and X11 were usable in the 80s, but Windows was a joke until 3.11
I think you're listening to pure hearsay. I doubt you ever ran Windows 3.11. Windows 3.0+286-based Compaq+DOS 3.3+MS Word for Windows+Microsoft Multiplan+Microsoft Powerpoint made a decently usable environment.
Yup, two other promising VB-like apps for Linux include: Gambas - http://gambas.sourceforge.net HBasic - http://hbasic.sourceforge.net/ The new version of kdevelop (called gideon, aka kdevelop-cvs) is pretty cool too. In many ways, it goes way beyond VS's capabilities, and in other ways, it falls behind to both VS and Eclipse. It's great overall though.
> C is meant for low level system programming. Why people use it for anything other than low level system functions is beyond me...
Because portage is entirely too slow for embedded systems. We are talking about processors that are one tenth to one-twentith the speed of normal desktop processors.
What do you use in X? Both KDE (since 2.2), and GNOME (since 2.2) have a type of notification feedback sceme.
Perhaps we need a system like OSX where the system determines if a busy cursor should be displayed-- not the app.
> where does that "4" come from in GU4DEC?
I beleive it's the fourth Guadec.
I've heard it's easier to port khtml instead of Mozilla. The relative ease that the Apple and the Aetheos guys ported it perhaps shows this.
No not yet.
Yes, GNOME and Evolution are pretty popular. Evolution is probably the most used email client for Linux.
By all estimates, KDE is quite a bit more popular than GNOME, but it's not terribly easy to accuratly judge this I'm sure.
(BTW, I've been using KDE full time since GNOME 2.0 came out.. used GNOME 1.2 full time, mixed GNOME 1.4 and KDE 2.2, and used KDE 1.2 full time)
Moreover, I ran from GNOME 1.x *in general* because of depedency hell. I hope that GNOME 2.x has fixed this.
KDE is much, much, much, easier to install by comparison, in my opinion.
> A 233 MHz system with 64MB RAM can be used with Windows 9x and Office. It will be UNUSABLE with Linux, KDE or Gnome, and OpenOffice.
A newer class of system, say 500 MHz and 256 MB RAM is required for that. Similar to what you would need for Windows 2000.
Uh.. try older versions of KDE then. I used KDE 1.2 for years on my PII 200. It was even released after win9x.
> don't have indoor plumbing, food or basic sanitation"
Which is what most Indians still live under. The divide between the rich (i.e, IT workers who earn very little compared to Western equivs), and the poor (you've got to remember that the average Indian is still involved in farming.. this was true in western countries a long-ass time ago)
> * Stop the rising fascist movement in India. Stop killing each other and write some open-source code instead (or go help clean up the streets if you don't have any skills).
:-(
Agreed.
> * 50% below poverty line (above poverty line is defined as getting something to eat --bare survival). Try to do something about it.
agreed. India has the largest amount of people under the poverty line in the world. More than the populations of all western countries (not put together, of course..)
> * 60% illiterate (literacy is attained when one memorises how to draw his name and count money). Do something about it.
I think it was something like 60-70% literacy levels now, lots of improvement. However, this is still way below western levels. Note that some Indian states, such as Kerela, have western (95%) literacy levels.
> * India has one of the fastest growing HIV/AIDS problems in the world. Do something about it before you talk trash about others.
Agreed..
> People of India, do not work with foreigners, strive to help yourselves through charity.
That was actually somewhat like Gandhi's philosophy. The Indian government practiced something like this from 1950 to 1991 (many free market reforms happened that year..)
Unfortunatly, it got India nowhere. Instead, India's population ballooned from 350,000,000 to about 900,000,000, and upteem amounts of poverty was produced. Things have gotten a lot better within the last decade.
> Talking about brains,the whole concept of competition is so ingrained into every muscle of the Average Indian Guy/Gal [AVG] that with zillions of examination, and the peer and parental pressure to succeed, somehow, even the AVG is sound on his fundamentals and concepts.
This might be true of well educated Indians (and certainly is true of most Asians in general..), the average Indian is still a farmer. Even if they went to school, it won't always be through high school. This is what describes men.. for women, it's even worse.
And also, the IT sector of India has pretty much only benefited parts of India. That is, only the states of Karnataka (where Bangalore is) and Andhra Pradesh (where Hydrabad is). Other cities have also benefitied, such as Mumbai, Delhi, and Calcutta, but their states generally have not.
If done right, you can configure sawfish to a greater level than you can configure fvwm.
This is, of course, unless fvwm has had large changes in config options within the last five years... I haven't used it much since 1998 or 1999 so.
> Like, say, apps with hybrid command line/graphic interfaces.
KDE can do this-- Konqueror can split views and embed konsole in one... duo cmd line/file manager/web browser/KitchenSync.
> But then again, neither me nor you nor anyone can make Linux developers do this or that; everybody is free to choose what to do with our Linux-hacking time.
Yup. People will work on what they want to, what they are interested in, and what the beleive in.
>
fvwm is simple and it works.
What the hell? You talk about configuration problems with KDE and GNOME, yet fvwm is practically one of the hardest window managers to configure properly.
> Have you ever seen gnomes fonts?
:()
:)
Uh, *bsst* troll.
The latest stable versions of KDE and GNOME, KDE 3.1 and GNOME 2.2, both use fontconfig+xft2+freetype = SAME FONT RENDERING.
Neither Gtk nor Qt do any font rendering by themselves. They both use freetype/xft. Qt just has been doing this for a far longer time (since Qt 2.3), while gtk has had this since gtk 2.0 (gtk 1.x had gdkxft, which was unfortunatly rather hackish
Btw, application preferences are based on the user. The only gtk2 app I use regularly is xchat. However, lately, I've been writing a KDE frontend to xchat (whose GUI code is nicely seperated from it's core code), so perhaps that'll go away too
khotkeys, which will be part of KDE 3.2 (and already in CVS), offers this capability in a nice GUI setting, as well as assigning mouse gestures.
there are also snapshots of it for KDE 3.1 around, google it.
You can use .cc files with MSVC just fine.. at least in MSVC7 you can by default.
Well, I ran Debian for nearly four years, and as a relatively recent switchee, I'd have to definatly recomment it to the class of people who love new software. Debian, when I left it, was quite good, but lacked new software (this was when KDE3, Xfree 4.2, and GNOME2 was missing from unstable)
./configure --help;make) with the convenience of automatically installation, dependancy handleing, upgrading, upgrading the whole distro, etc..
I thought compiling was wasteful before gentoo, but it's so goddamn transparent that I love it. I just compile things like KDE or Mozilla when I'm sleeping. In exchange, you get a lot of added flexiblity of picking compile options (i.e, doing manual
Gentoo, and the *BSD ports system, imho, is the best of two worlds.
I would like FreeBSD, unfortunatly, it has quite a bit more lackluster driver support than Linux does. I'm too addicted to q3 and ut2k3 to give Linux up. I also don't want to fight with software, like wine, to get things to compile flawlessly (which they pretty much always do in Linux, but may not always in FreeBSD, in my experience)
> I think they're very good, and kde in general is getting quite excellent, but the cartoonish appearance simply detracts from what is otherwise a fantastic piece of work. Professionalism? Are cartoonish icons/buttons/widgets professional?
Have you ever used WinXP?
> It's naive to think that you can learn and understand any GUI library consisting of hundreds of classes and thousands of methods within "hours". After a few hours, you can start producing code, but you'll have to refer constantly to the documentation.
The point is that one can be productive in Qt within hours. Many of us who use Qt from day to day still remember this fact. gtk(1.0/1.2) definatly had a much greater learning curve for me. wxWindows was also quite easy to learn, but I think that's because I had previous experience with MFC. I could thus pick up event tables quite easily.
I haven't really used fltk or gtk2, so I can't comment on those.
People can also be quite productive in Cocoa quite quickly. I have not tried GNUstep yet, but it probably carries over to it to.