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UK Councils May Dump Windows For Linux
An anonymous reader writes "Local authorities in Newham and Nottingham are expected to migrate more than 10,000 desktop computers from Windows to GNU/Linux.
ZDNet has the story. "If this is seen to work in Newham, it has the potential to be a significant project, changing the perceptions of other councils," said Tim Dawes, director of local government technology consultants Nineveh."
...can anyone tell me when we ever saw a large-scale switch from Linux to Windows NT?
It should say, "The sheriff of Nottingham is stealing from the rich and giving to the poor."
I don't know if its the way its being reported or if its actually true but it seems Linux is get more and more chosen over M$.
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While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.
They could also use the excellent CodeWeavers' CrossOver Office but then they'll probably pay more $$$ for the MS Office licenses than when they make a OS+Office deal with the MS sales reps.
Either way, they'll have to solve a problem, now or in the future. Then again, Windows brings its own host of problems.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
What has happened to Linux zealotry on /. The actual article title clearly and totally ignores the fact these councils are only doing feasability studies, not actually switching.
/. header actually notes this fact that these councils may switch to Linux. What happed to the good old days when /. would report them as having already switched with lots of interesting anecdotes about how shit Windows is and how brilliant Linux is.
UK councils dump Windows for Linux
Most bizaarly then the
I just dont know what the world is coming to
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Oh shut up.
This can only be a good thing for suppliers of certain local government based software (SX3, Ocella) - many of their products used to run on UNIX alone, and even now some of them run emulated under W2K.
The council I work for runs iWorld, an SX3 product - unfortunately our UNIX admin is a bit of a fool and didn't notice when the project suggested running the system emulated. If he'd have been paying attention, we might have got some Linux boxen in!
"I hate Cthulhu, Cthulhu hates me, I kill his cultists, He eats worlds for tea"
Where are my moderator points when I need them. You are entitled to your opinions, but this is just too trollish to be true.
"6EQUJ5"
Linux is find in the IT sector- but I use to work in the council and surfice to say the majority of people there didn't want to fiddle- they wanted compatibility and ease of use. Now in some respects Linux has this just enough to be usable- after all most of the work I did there required simply using an email software (easy enough), an office suite (Star office isn't any more difficult than the MS Solution) and some custom database software (which was all served up using JAVA- so no code porting would have been necessary). In fact, in some respects for the council this situation is ideal- you can almost garuntee that staff won't take files home with them or load them from another PC... actually, mayb the council are the only people who can use it! For the rest of the office world though- compatibility with Windows, and ease of use... I'm sorry- but windows is too well embedded in the home/office market for Linux to ever win.
The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency (Eugene McCarthy)
Ummm... You're new here aren't you...
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
When I hear these stories, I'm always surprised how many city workers there are who have computers. My conception of city administration is that there must be many who don't work at desks.
Eddie Bleasedale, of Netproject has been one of the UKs most prolific advocates of the Open Source movement. Hes been running seminars, Discussions and meetings with a large variety of "movers and shaker" within the UK for several Years now. This is the not the first large scale project in the UK but it is certainly the most important. The Architecture employed to move everyone to the Linux Desktop , which I have seen , is certainly the most influential and consistent to date. We at 3aIT wish Eddie and his team all the best in this project and the future.
Though I am wondering when the UK Magazines are going to start including Eddies Name for Linux Advocacy nominations.
And if youve ever tried getting your boss to understand the benefits of Open Source in business then look out for Netprojects Day Conferences ( next on is 10th June 2003, London ) where Netprojects put together a excellent series of dicsussions and topics detailing issues and concerns over the Linux Answer.
And thats why Firecrackers and kittens don't mix.
Mansfield LUG (In nottinghamshire) currently has a discussion going on this. On the members works at the Mansfield council and has been pushing Linux for years. The only realy barrier is that the guy in charge of IT is anti-linux - but he's Unix programmer. Another member works for another local council. He has managed to get linux onto their servers by way of stealth. Their mail servers were orignially just a 'test' to see if linux would be able to cope. Since then they've ditched their previous server OSes and have replaced them with Linux. They've been trying to get Linux on as the desktops too. No success with 'those with the say' there at all. This decision by the Nottingham council may be more pursuasive.
the chances are reduced to the upgrade cycle, which is getting longer, but everytime an upgrade is considered, another system has a chance. If not linux, some other commodotization of software, with software cheap and in some cases free.
Slashdot Journal on Monopoly News
ummm. You're dense. You sucked the humour out of my statement.
Linux is ideal for places like Council Offices -- little complex software beyond Word-processors or Spreadsheets is required, meaning any OS can conceivably be used. What sets apart one from another is the cost, and ease of maintenance/deployment. And, here, it is obvious that Linux wins.
Having said that, this doesn't do much for Linux in the home, or for those who use PCs for anything more complex.
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
Getting my dad to run linux on our laundromat's website's server.
Get in line!
So we see there stories all the time on Slashdot.
But has any government ever ACTUALLY DONE IT?
Ever government in the world has "considered" mandating and using open source for everything (usually around the time a MS contract comes up for renegotiation/renewal).
Isn't this just the usual Linux as a bargaining chip thing all corporations and governments do right before they sign their latest MS contract to try and get MS to sweeten the deal?
I mean has any government actually done the switch? ever?
That was humour?
First, yes the story says they are considering the switch, second, the header dosen't contain the word "may".
I wonder about pressure that local governments can apply externally on businesses. People resist moving from Windows and MS Office saying it will be too hard to convert to something else because file formats are a problem. Yet San Francisco can mandate that any company that deals with the city must have gay friendly policies in place across the entire corporation at the local, state and country levels.
Why can't this same pressure be used to ensure that documents sent to local governments must be readable by freely available packages like Openoffice.org or the companies can not continue doing government business? Make it a requirement and watch the barriers to free and opensource software drop. Then if a local government is having a financial crunch, let them convert older systems to linux/freebsd/whatever without worrying that common document formats can't be read. This way governments could cut computing costs and hire another teacher or policeman, heck maybe even fund youth baseball for a season ( not cheap).
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
That screeching sound is the sound of the Microsoft FUD machine, lobbying machinery, and PR machinery kicking into high gear. Expect another concerted effort by Microsoft trying to discredit Linux, effectively bribe government officials, and "give away" Windows for free.
Well you see, anyone who has been to slashdot more than twice knows what it is, and I voiced what someone very very naive might say, having seen it for the first time. A different reaction than simply ignoring it. An unlikely reaction to a common statement can sometimes be interpreted as humour. Apparently it wasn't so it's a good thing we have disected it in excruciating detail.
I hope the consultants are working on these lines rather than just doing the "can we do everything we do not with a different technology".
The biggest problem is likely to be user retraining - and this is where educational policy needs to be looked at. Schools don't teach Gallimard French or General Motors physics. We expect school subjects to be vendor-neutral. Yet IT is often far from it. Hardware has to be made by somebody, but surely education software should be fully standards compliant and vendor neutral. Potentially, this should level the playing field for students, employers and vendors, and allow companies and local authorities planning long term strategy to make market-independent assessments of needs. I believe that UK local authorities share some responsibility for education with the central government. If so, that's an area of policy they might want to influence.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
from the article:
If this is seen to work in Newham, it has the potential to be a significant project, changing the perceptions of other councils," said Tim Dawes, director of local government technology consultants Nineveh.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
The argument that SO/OO doesn't have the ability to convert all MSOffice documents seamlessly is possibly not that valid. Local government generally is not pushing the envelope in IT usage, partly due to budgetary constraints and partly due to the kind of people it employs (and no, this is not a criticism.) In fact, the best way to control costs and improve productivity is to discourage users from producing over-complex documents, and to ensure that applications are not used improperly (e.g. managers designing hugely complex spreadsheets which are impossible to synchronise to live data, rather than having a skilled database engineer produce a properly scoped report.)
I hope the consultants are working on these lines rather than just doing the "can we do everything we do not with a different technology".
The biggest problem is likely to be user retraining - and this is where educational policy needs to be looked at. Schools don't teach Gallimard French or General Motors physics. We expect school subjects to be vendor-neutral. Yet IT is often far from it. Hardware has to be made by somebody, but surely education software should be fully standards compliant and vendor neutral. Potentially, this should level the playing field for students, employers and vendors, and allow companies and local authorities planning long term strategy to make market-independent assessments of needs. I believe that UK local authorities share some responsibility for education with the central government. If so, that's an area of policy they might want to influence.
just making sure that no real work will get done
I know what you mean. I switched. Windows comes with a small handful of timewaster games. Minesweeper, and a few card games. Linux on the other hand....
The truth shall set you free!
and they boast about it.
It seems that councils like Newham will be more likely to look at linux because they dont want to be evil, wheras right wing councils couldnt give a toss.
What you have said here is very interesting.
Don't worry about Linux on old systems, however. I run Linux on a 233 MHz computer that I rescued from a customer's upgrade a long time ago. It works fine. My experience is that Linux is much faster on old hardware than Windows.
" Linux is teh 0wn!!!!!! Micro$oft is teh sux!!!!!!!!"
;)
Come on, Rob, log in when you're going to post comments so the new people know it's you!
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
I know UK Police forces (West Yorks initially) were looking at a thin client Linux desktop deployment, which it was claimed could lead to greater Linux take-up in the public sector - story. Any connection I wonder? My favourite quote - "Linux is Unix done properly.".
The story doesn't say that the final decisions have been made. A feasibility study is being mounted to replace Windows systems by the end of the year. Microsoft will be pulling out all the stops against this. A May 14th Slashdot discussion on the topic quotes Orlando Ayala, head of sales at Microsoft, as saying: "Under NO circumstances lose against Linux." They're going to practically give Windows away to avoid these setbacks. Even if they do prevail, though, the die is cast against Redmond.
I think that Microsoft has "jumped the shark."
Longhorn is two years away. Palladium-Next Generation Computing is alarming large segments of the IT community. Microsoft's latest licensing scheme antagonized its business customers. It is a convicted monopolist; its options against future challenges aren't what they were before that conviction and they face antitrust action in Europe and elsewhere. Viruses and worms spread by and through Windows IIS, Hotmail, Outlook, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer create weekly embarrassments in the face of Bill Gates's call for improved security. The strategy to impose a Microsoft-powered Digital Rights Management regime on users has been hurt badly by Apple's iTunes Music store. Economic conditions have slowed the adoption of Windows XP because new machines aren't being bought at rates anticipated before the technology industry nosedive. Millions of Windows 98, ME, and 2000 customers see no need (and have little incentive) to upgrade.
And now, the growth of Open Source has crippled Microsoft's ability to "embrace and extend" critical standards. The first big mistake in that battle is their recent announcement that there will be no more standalone versions of Internet Explorer. Open Source alternatives will be able to develop and implement improvements in browser technology at a much more nimble rate than will Microsoft while maintaining compatibility with current standards. New versions of IE that cripple functionality will drive customers toward alternatives rather than toward IE (and the requisite release of Windows that delivers it).
Microsoft's stated goal of "Windows on every desktop" is no longer practical. Steve Ballmer's recent memo to the troops admits as much. I've been in the computer industry for over twenty years now and I assure you that that is a HUGE victory, but the advantage has to be pressed now or Microsoft will catch up like it has caught up so many times before. Open Source has to continue its emphasis on better, faster, cheaper, safer, and more reliable.
But for now? Bravo!
Can someone help us here? I certainly believe my own experience. The parent poster seems to have experience, also. Why do we have different experiences?
For office work, Linux seems fine to me on slow machines.
Is the poster really anonymous? He's obviously RMS.
Guess No one has seen my install scripts. I thought not lucky I have backup.
Yep my number one disks to disappear. My removal of the games from win98 yep not even in the cabs so try as you might your stuffed.
Basicly That is what a thought until people started downloadling them. Basicly they will get in not matter what you do. At least with linux you know who downloaded it.
Merrill Lynch research shows that deploying Linux internally that could save the company millions of dollars, an executive at the investment banker said.
During a presentation Friday at the Enterprise Linux Forum, Mark Snodgrass, vice president of Merrill Lynch's in-house technology provider, the Global Technology & Services group, said that the company has found that re-architecting its information infrastructure using Linux can reduce administration costs dramatically.
In fact, Snodgrass found that, while the software licensing costs of Windows was higher than Linux, the highest cost was in managing traditional Windows infrastructure.
"It's the people that cost the most," he said.
Merrill Lynch's new plans for its information infrastructure call for running much of its Linux applications not on their own physical machines but in virtual machines running on high-end servers. Such a scheme simplifies management and allows for rapid deployment of new Linux "servers" by activating a copy of a stored pre-configured image in as little as 2 minutes 14 seconds.
"We are not trying to promote Linux," Snodgrass said. "We are just trying to reduce the cost of ownership."
Using such virtual Linux servers to store files could cut costs dramatically, he said. Keeping their file systems on Windows servers would have cost the company $600,000 in hardware and five times that to pay for the personnel to manage the servers.
"We know that Linux is not for everything," he said. "But there are not many applications that require more than Linux can give us."
Snodgrass's group proposed replacing the company's Microsoft Exchange servers with a Linux-based solution that would have all the same collaboration features and have a cost savings of 70 percent to 80 percent. However, for other reasons that Snodgrass wouldn't discuss, the company's executives decided to stick with Exchange but outsource the management of the groupware to save money.
Not everyone agrees that Linux saves money, however. Last year, market researcher IDC released a report, heralded by Microsoft, that indicated that the five-year cost of ownership for four out of five applications would be lower if Microsoft software was used. The sole Linux winner was Web server software, according to the report. (and for the slashdotters/windows users hanging on this bit of hope, note that this study was decimated when it was examined and certain facts, like license renewals being omitted, the timeline favoring unrealistic (over 5 years for the same release) use of windows, no hardware upgrades for newer versions of windows, no accounting for the fact that linux/unix admins can run more systems per admin, no patching/crashing problems with windows, downtime costs, and more).
Snodgrass said he wasn't familiar with the study, but his own data indicated that running virtual Linux servers saves a lot of money compared with running those same services under Windows.
"We've done our numbers, and we are a bank, so we know our numbers," he said.
Other companies apparently have crunched the numbers and come to the same conclusion.
Telecommunications provider Verizon disclosed that it saved nearly $6 million in equipment costs by moving its programmers to Linux from proprietary-Unix and Windows workstations. In October 2001, Amazon.com revealed that it had replaced Web application servers running on a proprietary-Unix platform with Linux, saving millions of dollars.
Snodgrass said the next target for deploying Linux could be on the desktop. The company plans to do a pilot project that will allow thin clients--computers with minimal hardware requirements--to be used as workstations. The applications would actually run on Linux and Windows terminal servers. To the user, the result would be the same, but to the company's
I hope the people making these sorts of decisions in developing countries realize that there are hidden costs involved in going to Linux. In India, for example, I am sure there are oodles of MCSEs that can click their way to a semi-functional network, but are there enough people familar with *nix to handle a major shift to Linux? I think not.
Not that this is a permanent roadblock, but it's something they need to be aware of. They have to realize that if something goes bad and they aren't with someone like IBM/Redhat, they might be screwed if they don't have geeks on hand to tackle the problem.
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
>While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice).
.doc format is not fully documented? My understanding is that while MS holds to cards in regard to the .doc format no one, regardless of much effort they put in, can make a .doc reader/writer as well as MS.
Is this true or is the problem that the
Any clarification of the above would be apperciated.
Linux is made in most parts of the world. Many local goverments must consider locally made products before buying from outside of the county, state, country etc.
Anyone one want to dig up a list of countries where work on linux has been done and then find out how many of them have offical logos (like this or this) and then find out what rules apply and come up with a nice mixed image?
Here is the link Indian President Adds Salt to MicroSoft Woes http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2135401,00. html
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
I noticed clueless people spreading FUD like "Linux is not ready for the desktop" as if they get paid for doing it.
If Linux would be ready for the desktop in the meaning like windows is ready for desktop then we would have to remove virtual desktops, changing of resolution with hotkeys, the shell, the flexible window manager concept... everything..
Maybe it's more like that Linux has a different (better) desktop than windows and will (hopefully) never gain that state of "readyness for the desktop" that windows has achived and which these people are looking for.
With this move from a propiertary software vendor to an Open Source vendor is a great move, and I hope they go through with it. Maybe with some help of the local LUG maybe they can cordinate something with the users to help them make the transistion easier? Hav the groups have a special day that can be posted through out the company for employees to goto to learn more things, or even have the people come in and help people in the spare time? or even get paid? Nothing wrong with taking the Open Source mentality of taking a large group of people and making great products.
Perhaps StarOffice is the right answer to the wrong question. Most of the functions for which we use a computer are very basic - text entry, messaging, numerical spreadsheets. MSOffice has built critical mass because it has all the functions that you might ever need, even if you use them only once every six months.
If you are a large employer, then it's probably in your interest to reduce the number of functions in the software that you give to your workers. If they need a car, you don't give them a Ferrari, do you? What do council workers really do? My guess is that mostly they are interpreting text (ie laws) and transmitting their interpretations to other people, either as text or email. If you can build templates in a basic text processor that will output as a letter, then you don't need to worry too much about having sophisticated word processing. That way they don't waste time playing around with complex programs, and they have fewer opportunities to pursue extra-curricular activities while at work.
The thing is, the Microsoft programs are so good at what they do, everyone has organised their work processes around it. If you could re-engineer those processes, a little, then you could probably significanly reduce the sophistication of the programs that you need. So instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, think about changing the shape of the hole a little.
I have only had 1 major glitch in a PowerPoint file being read in OpenOffice 1.0.1. All other files I have read in OpenOffice made from MS Office (mostly .DOC files but excel too) have rendered to such a degree that I could not see any difference. Not to say that there wasn't an error, I just could not see it, which ought to be good enough.
All of these have been the Win32 build on Win2k sp3
The error that I did see was in 1.0.1 I think but after that in 1.0.2 and 1.0.3 everything is working great. In my experence
Disclaimer: your milage my vary, see store manager for details, batteries not included, some assembly required, not for small children or big babies, offer not valid where prohibited, MS zelots need not apply
Yes, something does beat the flexibility, scalability and useability of Microsoft Windows® XP and that is Microsoft Windows® Server 2003. Please correct this in future public service announcements you wish to make here. Thank you, sir. Have a nice day.
The lesson is that the world starves for a cheap and robust alternative to Microsoft Windows.
There are two alternatives:
1) Linux. If the usability problems are solved, it may have a chance.
2) OS X. Apple does not understand that they can take big revenge on Microsoft by releasing OS X for 80x86.
Especially in the short-term future that Microsoft will switch to subscription-based computing, more and more will seek solutions outside of Microsoft.
Yup, in Spain, in Extremadura actually. The GNU/Linux distribution used is Debian 3.0 Woody, but has been adapted for users and called Linex
In here you may find more info http://www.linex.org (link seems temporarily down?)
These things still demand NT equivalence on the desktop to run. Most still require some server component to be on an NT equivalent server. This means MS in both cases.
... meaning that MS Servers will interact with linux diskless workstations in the cash-strapped local government world.
In a complete turnaround, most apps in this area are of course becoming browser-based on the client side
Shouldn't that be an anonymous writer or an anonymous reader/writer writes...? ;-)
Go permanent? In your dreams and my worst nightmares.
In the UK the obsession with the "dynamism" of American capitalism continues largely unabated (often with government encouragement). Bill Gates is of course the principal exemplar of that dynamism (ie he is very, very rich) and is still feted as some sort of hero over here.
The argument that MS is an anti-competitive monopolist just hasn't broken through.
It's "And whose behind is it?"
Cities switching to Linux happens so often that it is going to be available as an option in Sim City 5.
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
We Zelots... Um hold on...
*Brain control Active* Linux advocates you must agree with me *Brain control Inactive*
Those Linux contolled brain lasers are so cool.
Um anyway..
By being a Zelot you must have an over confadence in the product so much so that when you see someone is CONSIDERING a switch to Linux you as the zelot KNOW they will see the light and switch.
Of Topic for a second:
I think this is the same kind or reasoning used at Microsoft.
That liccens agreement that says you can't release test results with out aprovel of Microsoft.
See if the results don't slant heavly twords Microsoft then you obveously did something wrong becouse there is NO WAY Linux or open source or any other commertal title could EVER beat Microsoft's fine craftsmanship.
Just as Microsoft has itself convenced it can never do wrong and all it's products are perfict.
The avrage zelot beleaves open source can do no wrong.. etc etc etc.. same line only it's not a marketting department of a wide selection of users.
And it didn't take brainwashing or brain lasers to convence them eather.
However I did convence my local city officals to consider Linux they did and rejected the idea.
Oh... Guess it's not automaticly the right choice for everyone after all...
No wait conspericy it's the fluffy bunnys...
I don't actually exist.
If you consider that we're talking about a full distribution of GNU/Linux with KDE, GNOME, GNU-tools etc. and not just the kernel, finding a list like this is near impossible.
If you want to check if a given country has had people involved, searching through for instance KDE and GNOME-cvs for xxxx@xxx.yy where yy is a given country code could be an indication.
I don't think there is many countries that are NOT involved, and you only have to start a project in your home country to package local stuff with a Linux-distribution to be able to say that at least some parts are made in your country.
Down in florida a couple of years, a city converted. Jefferson county, CO runs Linux on desktop. Apparently, they did it the intellegent way some time ago. They let the user decide, by giving them choice. runninng NT/2000 with the current MS office OR upgrading their hardware and using Linux of which these were about the same costs. I understand that first year the offer was taken up by a small percentage, but the next year quite a few ppl took it up as the MS ppl were getting starved on CPU cycles. Apparently, the top hardware was 586's with 64 and 128 M rams. Hard to get things done when MS keeps demanding more, but the group is not going too fork out the increase in hardware and support costs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I have been seeing more and more large scale "trial" runs for linux in corporate and government settings. I sincerely hope (as I cannot assume) that they are putting the necessary planning and talent behind these transitions. For something of this scale, you cannot simply re-train your current IT staff (once an MCSE, always an MCSE). It requires significant restaffing, rearchitecting, and user re-training.
Anyone who has done a platform migration in an enterprise knows that this is an extremely difficult undertaking. I can't even imagine having to do this for 10,000 systems! I really hope that the community reaches out to support these large trials, and that they are ultimately successful. We all know that linux "can" be successful in this setting. Here's to hoping they get it right.
Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo
Amen to that. I now propose that no new story about a "switch" be posted till the switch is in implementation stage. Or at least approved and budgeted. Microsoft let the cat out of the bag by saying that if you menace them with Linux they will giver you their software for free. So expect a rising volume of incidents such as this while everybody negotiates them dry. But no real advance there (except of course the fact that MS will have less cash to buy companies with real ideas, good programmers, congressmen, you name it).
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
Parent comment is only at +4. Mod parent up.
Nothing beats the flexibility, scalability and useability of Microsoft Windows® XP.
For starters it's mostly just a matter of opinion. Plenty of user much prefer Gnome/KDE to explorer (which still crashes at least once a day on me). And what about OSX? Most would agree that it beats the crap out of Windows for usability!!
I'm running NT4/office 97 on 128 Mb, 400 Mhz.
I hate to say it but this beats Mandrake 9/ OO 1.0.3 into the deck for responsiveness on the same machine.
So, either the guys in Florida didn't know how to set up an NT box (odd, since mine is default at every turn) or your informant has been misled.
I asked my dad to try using OO instead of MSOffice for a day at work to see how well he could transition. Couldn't use it for more than 10 minutes because all the Excel files they have had specific macros to kick off printing and do weird formatting and calculations. OO wasn't able to deal with them. Sure, you could try to rewrite them, but why do that? They're already working in MSOffice. If/when Excel can import and use those, he'd switch.
creation science book
I am part if IT-Support/Admin for an international company (in eleven countries). So far I haven't seen a convincing set of Linux tools to migrate the MS-Chain of Command (Exchange, Office and Explorer). So far there is no Linux package out there that is equal to Office+Exchange combo - or is there?! Another problem is, that many custom (web) applications rely on IE (they won't work with any other browser). Plus we are a travel company that relies on many specialized tools that are simply not avail under Linux. If you have a company that hardly relies on special apps - and just needs office and net apps - Linux is ready to go.
Dunno -- I'm a pure UNIX developer, and looking at .NET, I like what I see. Not necessarily Windows.Forms, mind you (but that's that Gtk# is for!), but it's got a lot of nifty things Java doesn't (like a sane C language interface, and broader language support -- Jython and Kawa and SISC are nice and all, but there's already quite a lot more frontends targeting .NET than the JVM).
.NET.
I'm a little uncertain about the availability of Free debugging tools, but if that turns out to be an unfounded concern, my next project might be based on
Considering my council tax has risen 20% in a single year, compounded on last years 12% and similar amounts from previous years, you can gather that local authorities in the UK are possibly the most wasteful and ineffcient in the Western world, anything that will save costs is great, however I doubt I'll see the benefit, the money saved with just be spent on other follies.
In fact my local council has a very similar archicture to Windows... resource hungry, prone to errors, file corruption, constantly crashing and losing data, the list gones on, they're a match made in heaven.
The guy's post is pure JUNK! Come on.
Maybe it is a bargaining chip, but in the case of Nottingham council, they have already made a foray into Linux by changing their mail system from a proprietry system to Linux (it's mostly a webmail type interface so the end users don't see Linux as such). I would guess that it is partially off the back of the large success they had with the mail migration that the change to Linux on the desktop is being considered - certainly it will be a large feather in the cap for Linux.
:)
Richard Heggs, the Nottingham council IT guy who oversaw the mail migration gave a talk on it to Nottingham LUG and iirc mentioned that they may well consider changing desktops to Linux. So there does appear to be some intent to change even if management just want to use the whole thing as a bargaining chip.
Personally I hope they do go ahead with the change as then we can ask Richard to do another talk for us
Cheers,
Roger
Do you have any better hostages?
Is the slowest distro I have ever run. Run Slackware, and you'd be seeing a 'normal' speed, do the smart thing and run gentoo or any other full compile distro and you'd be smoking faster than windows does ( ;
Banaaaana!
I've been reading the posts to this story, and I can see that many people don't understand the underlying issues.
Here is a fact that is symbolic of why organizations switch to Linux: Microsoft Windows XP cannot copy all of its own files! Microsoft decided to treat all of its customers as though they were criminals just because some were making illegal copies. So, Microsoft crippled the Windows XP file system to prevent people from cloning their copies of Windows. This vastly increases the problems in using Windows XP, for everyone, because full hard disk backups become more difficult.
For more about Microsoft's anti-customer behavior, see Windows XP Shows the Direction Microsoft is Going.
Organizations have had enough of Microsoft's hostile behavior toward them. That's the underlying reason they are switching to Linux.
Also, governments cannot ensure independence if they use proprietary, closed-source software. Could the United States government's NSA or CIA or FBI demand that a hidden back door be put in Microsoft software so that it could investigate what another government is doing? Certainly. Obviously, an agency that is authorized to kill people and destroy their property will not feel morally limited when considering corruption of software.
So, let me sum up. A small county in a socialist European country, have contemplated to at some time in the future maybe change to Linux. Wow.
Why don't you get back to us when a real company in a real (non socialist) country makes a big switch?
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
I just started Open Office 1.0.3.1 and it started with the same speed as Microsoft Word, maybe a little faster. Mozilla is great (but Mozilla Firebird is better).
Maybe I get better performance because I use very well-supported hardware. Also, when MS Office is installed, it loads a component that starts every time you start your computer. Be sure that is disabled when you run tests.
I ran Gnome on a Cyrix 120/ 64MB RAM machine. It was occasionally sluggish, but very far from unusable. What was a problem, was mozilla and/or netscape. Being such memory hogs, they were indeed pretty much unusable untill I upgraded to 96MB, whereupon they behaved tolerably. Personally I think this says more about the code quality of Netscape than the capacity of linux generally.
On the other hand, I was not running OpenOffice -- all my text work was emacs and LaTeX.
At one point I was also running Windows 98 on this machine: I found it painfully slow, though IE certainly ran more quickly than netscape did.
One of the reasons why Windows felt slower, was the way the window management was organised. Even when I upgraded the machine to a K6-3/400 with 256MB, most things felt faster under Linux with Gnome, than with Windows 2000 (which was what I was then using on that machine.) The key thing was that to move a window out of the way, the application controlling the window had to do the work. If it was slow, not paying attention, etc., then it felt like I was working on a desk covered in dried sticky syrup. That and strange scroll-wheel scrolling behaviour made the whole experience very unpleasant.
I guess this is just a matter of what one is used to; the use of a separate window manager has its own set of comprimises that don't bug me, but do really annoy some people.
I applaude the wise folks in charge in Munich, and in Britian. It seems to me that the U.S. is getting slower and slower to respond to potential money saving efforts as the "win to lin" platform switch. I guess local and state governments in the U.S. just dont want to save money. They HAVE to spend it. Taxpayers should demand the saving (but since when has the U.S. government actually listened to us?). Also i saw posted that only a dummy would completely quit windows. Paint me stupid but i dumped Windows three years ago entirely. I wonder what amount of money is to be realized by the switch. Surely it isnt chicken feed. About the only parallel i can draw is to redhats Open Source Now! project and I think the pilot scholls running Linux are very happy with their savings. Once you completely transition from windows you dont even miss it. You just do things differently. It may cost a little more to switch machines that have win modems in them but factor in the cost savings over 3 or 4 years and it really makes sense. I wonder what the government in Munich will spend their new found money on now? I just think that its great. What do you call 20-30K workstations running linux? A damn good start.
I'm calling the sincerity of your post into question!! I live a few miles away from Trenton, and there is no John's Heating and Air Conditioning in Trenton!! They're in *MERCERVILLE*!! :)
John's Heating & Air Cond
2704 Quakerbridge Rd, Mercerville, NJ 08619
Comparing the difference between Linux and Windows to the difference between a Hammer and a screwdriver is a bit simplistic. Both are hugely complex systems that can do a lot of the same things. Almost anything you can do with a windows box you can do with a Linux box and vise versa. Sure, one specific application might not be available for one platform, but there's probably other software that will do something similar, or you can get some emulation setup going (like cygwin or wine).
The difference is more like that between a Truck and an SUV, or even comparing something like a Civic-Si and a Celica. Anyway, we all know what Linux and windows are, so what's the point in reducing to simple metaphor?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Nottingham has a huge university (universities?)... there are tons of students and graduates (presumably), so it will be easier to find smart kids to run Linux.
:-)
Searching for employees (and replacements) is a big concern for management who entertain the idea of Linux: sure, Microsoft is expensive, proprietary, arrogant and unstable... but MSCE folks are much more common than knowledgable UNIX people.
Many small companies just want day-to-day IT operations like rebooting and virus removal... it is difficult to understand IT issues you cannot see, like proactive network security.
I imagine Nottingham U is on the boat and offering a good suite of UNIX programming classes.
Anyone here from Nottingham?
I worked for Serif (US) in the early 90's, but spent a summer at the Serif Notingham office. I swear... you need two livers to survive in that place.
-Scott
but, but hes bashing M$. he must be right, and dont you say otherwise, you troll
Some big city in florida did it. My first guess without googling is IIRC boca raton, but no idea really.
That's it. I'm moving to Nottingham.
As an experienced Windows administrator, I have a few questions that are not BASHING, so FLAME OFF...take this as an opportunity to prove something.
.02 as well, this forum could be very interesting.
That said, here they are.
Windows does make a few things very easy for administrators. For example, I work as the only administrator in a 100 computer, 2 server company. Windows security settings (windows 2000) makes it almost impossible for the average user to install any applications on their PC, making my life a lot easier. If people could install anything they wanted, I'm sure that every attachment with a virus would be opened (ok admin access doesn
t prevent that, but local user access limits that damage thatcan be done)...I'm sure that every version of every media player would be installed on every machine, conflicting with this and that...every version of instant messenger would be on, etc...
On the few PCs that DO need local admin access, this all has already happened.
I think it's a GREAT thing that PC's are a member of a domain and that being an administrator of said domain automatically grants me FULL access to every PC in the domain, while limiting access to every PC for people that aren't admins.
I think that it's GREAT that from a central location (server), I can change a login script and get systems changes to happen on EVERYONE'S PC automatically (install printers, apply system patches, change global settings, add registry entries, etc...).
So that's that...there are other things that make Windows nice and pretty (like support from EVERY HARDWARE VENDOR and no hunting for special obscure drivers) but for my job and not my own personal entertainment, the above reasons mean the most to me. (Try calling ANY CD writer vendor and tell them that you're having a difficult time getting the writer to work in Linux, and see how much help you get, seriously).
Ultimately, can anyone present a way to get all of the mangement features mentioned above on a 100 computer, 2 server LINUX network?
You're not selling me, you're selling the entire WINDOWS community. Write up a little white-paper case study that shows how you can do all of these management functions in a Linux environment. Or, if not a whitepaper, how about just a reply to this post with a HOW-TO. I'm interested.
As a windows administrator with forsight, I see that where once there was a competition between Novell and Microsoft for the network/desktop (well, not novell on the deksotp, but you know what I'm saying), there is a competition on the horizon between Linux and Microsoft.
I'll take anyone's
I'm glad you liked the talk. Personally, I thought it was far too much waffle. :)
It's true that the success of our email system has increased the value of Linux in the eyes of TPTB, but the fact remains that we are only *considering* Linux as a possibility. Just as we are considering Windows, Netware and various proprietary versions of Unix.
I see the difference being more like this. Imagine that in the course of your work, you have to tighten a lot of screws with different recessses {slot, Phillips, Posidriv, hex, Torx, S-4, Tri-Wing &c}.
Linux would be like having a set of different screwdrivers; you have to pick out by yourself the one that fits the recesss on the screw you are tightening.
Windows is like a "magic hammer". Built into this wonderful tool is a camera for automatically sensing the kind of recess in the screw, a mechanism for selecting a hex-drive bit and loading it into a chuck, and a ratchet arrangement that allows you to wield it exactly as you would wield a hammer, with the energy to turn the screw being converted from the impact of the driver tip upon the screw. Now there is no more Phillips/Posi confusion, no more the matter of Torx with or without the security pip, and so forth - you, the user, just pick up your Magic Hammer as though it were an ordinary hammer and hit the screw as though it were a nail. The Magic Hammer does all the complicated stuff {identifying the recess, locating the corresponding driver tip, translating the motion} for you. You see a common user interface irrespective of the nature of the problem being solved.
It doesn't take an expert to see that this Magic Hammer has an awful lot of potential failure points, entirely due to the inherent sophistication in its design; the unsophisticated multitude of tools may be overwhelming at first sight, but the fact is that you will only commonly encounter half a dozen screw recesses, and those screwdrivers will work their way to the top of your toolbox where you can most easily reach them.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Windows XP *still* ships with MS Paint. People don't notice because they never use it, but open it - look at it - its shite! I really can't understand why MS ships it..... its the most outdated, useless piece of software.
Why do they do it?
... and variations inside that middle as well.
Apples big claim to fame (and why I switched to them from dos many moons ago) is their hardware works with the software works with the hardware, and it worked well, was easy to use, and to this day all that stuff still works, I haven't chunked any of of it out.. That philsophy got a premium price, and still does.
This CAN be done on x86 hardware, but apple would have to have the indsiputable world class warranty with it, and support. They would have to pick and choose what commodity hardware to use in their machines before it got slapped with an "apple approved" label and shipped as their brand. They would need a contract with their hardware vendorts that only that production run to apple could be built that way. The OS could be the same,run on generic x86 or the PPC versions, but would have much better support ONLY IF the support was on their own machines, buy from apple, use their boxes, your upgrades and whatnot are freer or cheaper or faster and you have an outstanding warranty. Example, hard drives, and how now most on the IDE side have dropped to one year max warranty,suppose apple trumps the industry, contracts with some manufacturers with design specs of "make it reliable as possible", comes out with a 5 year warranty, because they know it will work. The ram, the mobo, all of it. Every component picked for ruggedness, reliability, ease of use, the most headache free combination they can get, backed by the worlds best warranty and quality and service. Then they could do it, and nothing stopping them from still releasing ppc based machines, other companies do it, use different processors.
The equivalent of playing poker "showdown" in the hardware/software world, combined with their OS, which they could modify the license to something more suitable, make it open, but they reserve exclusivity to the "official" releases, and only the official release gets the warranty and service bennies on their hardware, although it may or may not work on other stuff that joe whitebox slaps together. That stuff is free speech, what apple sells is free beer then in other words. And then you got your ipods and laptops still and eventually there WILL be an ipda or iphone/pod/pda combo, which is the next logical step. Not to mention the idea of their music downloads, they could apply that to various apps as well, people would pay a bit for getting something they know works and itsn't full of haxor crap hosted from a server in whoknowswhereistan, again, security, quality,warranty,ease of use, sell it cheap, make it on volume. They put independent developers on the micropayment fee schedule, they aren't direct contractors or employees, but every time someone downloads a signed app from apple, the developer who runs that app, his little baby, gets a part of the small fee charged, exact same model they do with music now. Share the work, share the money, too. This gives open source "indie" developers an immediate incentive beyond "gee this is fun" to code. What would anyone code for, free as in free, or free as in pretty much free but you get a check every month?
It would take a very large set of brass ones to contemplate and implement these changes, but it IS possible for them to switch and still maintain marketshare, in fact, maybe increase it, by offering choice, compatability, ease of use, ruggedness,warranty length, and service and above all, built in best of breed ease of use security, and people who pay for it get *first dibs* all the time. And maybe if they went a step further, factory hardware upgrades as an option,or factory trade in credits with the old hardware towards a new one,etc, instead of exclusively selling brand new boxes *only*(not counting refurbs that are merely cleaned a little) as upgrades as they do now,they could do BOTH, again, another choice for the consumer. They could keep expanding, too, how about the first really decent and EASY to use and EASY to implement wireless broadband ISP, that worked both mesh nodes peer to peer and normally? I sure as heck would sign with them then, ditch the rural dialup.
There's tons more ideas they could do,to "make money" by being bold and innovative, these are just a few I can think of quickly.
Try running XP or Win2K with Office 200 on the same box with NO upgrade in hardware . The Jefferson County, Colorado follks allowed the employees to spend money on either software or hardware, but not both (600 / desktop 4 years ago).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
AC: Do you care to refute even one of its claims?
Microsoft let the cat out of the bag by saying that if you menace them with Linux they will giver you their software for free. So expect a rising volume of incidents such as this while everybody negotiates them dry.
That's ultimately self-defeating. The more Linux is given away the better Linux does. Linux gains more mindshare, developers, and generates opportunities for small businesses as it propagates. This is not true of MS. When MS gives away licenses to maintain marketshare, it is at the expense of revenue. Sure they can threaten to take away the crackpipe if they aren't paid down the road but then the "feasibility studies" start up again. Mind and marketshare doesn't do them much good if it isn't making them money.
This feasibility study is not news. When Ballmer flies out to Britain with a briefcase full of free/deeply-discounted licenses, that will be news. It isn't a "loss" for Linux either. To MS, it'll be the equivalent of a played out one-crop field. Sure, nobody else will grow anything but they won't either.
MS faces a mature market for their only two moneymakers (Windows/Office). Palladium-style lockin strategies won't save them either. At best, they can hold the line a little while longer. They need new products and new business model that doesn't involve making legions of potential users and developers highly pissed at them.
Why is this a problem ?
They will be looking at a smooth transition, not a big bang, some people may continue with Windows boxes for a long time. These and those moved to Linux are still going to want to arrange meetings/... with each other. The trouble is that the MAPI protocol used in not known and there are no open source clients/servers.
We need to reverse engineer the current M$ MAPI protocols so that open source clients/servers can be written. The key to the success of this project is going to be seamless continuity of end user work while desktop and server machines are migrated one by one.
Does anyone know of tools other than ximian connector and bynari ?
OpenOffice does the .doc, .xls & .ppt well enough.
Evolution/kmail does the email well enough (smtp).
``Well enough'' means can interoperate in terms of protocol and file/wire formats.
I just wrote a letter to my local council (which was not mentioned in the article) encouraging them
2 135726,00. html
f d_top
to follow Newham's lead. I didn't write it very well, but if anyone wants to copy bits of it to send to their council...
Dear Councillors,
A draw your attention to the following article:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t272-s
In it, it is mentioned that "Newham in London and Nottingham City Council, are
examining the feasibility of shifting all their 11,500 staff desktop
computers from Windows to Linux with open source desktop applications by the
end of the year". It is also mentioned that such a move is being considered
by Barking and Dagenham, Hackney, Havering, Redbridge, Thanet, Tower Hamlets
and Waltham Forest.
I was wondering whether Greenwich Council might also consider such a move. As
a resident of Greenwich I think it would be a good idea for the following
reasons:
-Studies have show that significant cost savings can be achieved by switching
to Linux. http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1014287.html?tag=
-I do not believe it is right that some of the money I pay in council tax
should find it's way to Microsoft, a convicted monopolist.
-I believe that all government documents should be stored in an open format.
Word documents are not open.
Yours sincerely,
Good grief. Do you actually have a life or why can't you remember this article (and the followups) about the city of Munich, Bavaria, Germany. That was the first large crack in the dam, and now watch the pieces come flying out.
This has already been done by other councils in the UK, and much bigger ones than this. Those councils have now gone _back_ to MS. Certainly with at least one council it was management's way of getting rid of this issue, they gave the IT people free rein with what they installed. It was a disaster, no end users would accept it. The management simply gave the IT folk enough rope to hang themselves, the issue is now dead. These two councils in england are very small, and they will end up going back to MS. The cost of retraining staff is just too great, and, lets be honest, Linux isnt there yet on the desktop. Maybe never will be. I'm not slagging linux, but its not good enough (from a user perspective).
Sorry.
[The] two councils...are examining the feasibility of shifting all their...desktop computers from Windows to Linux...by the end of the year,
Newham has commissioned a feasibility study
Nottingham is set to decide on new software for its 6,500 desktop PCs by the end of 2003...[and] open source solutions are being considered.
.DOC is not a document exchange format. As you noted layout isn't even consistant between versions (or instances!) of Word. Further the DOC format contains a lot of metadata and undo information that could reveal sensitive information should the recipiant ever use the undo function. I've read stories about a firm sending invoices in DOC, and undo told their client they were getting a bad deal.
Exactly...
As much as I loathe to say it, but with Outlook + Exchange Server 2000 you can do some pretty good stuff. OK so most idiot users, just use it to send a few emails, but if you know what youâ(TM)re doing itâ(TM)s a really flexible and powerful environment. Put it another way - sendmail isnâ(TM)t exactly gonna cut it. The OSS community needs to address this failing coz at the moment Iâ(TM)d love be able to give up Windows in favor of Linux but being able to open a few Word documents in StarOffice doesnâ(TM)t really cut it.
For quick and dirty image edits/viewing Irfanview can't be beat. It's one of the few pieces of windows software I wish linux had. Not that it does anything I can't do with Gimp, but the focused feature set makes it really nice to use.
It would be better if UK would dump Bush and join the rest of EU more closely than now.
Less is more !
Nah, keep em comming.
One of two things happens.
Microsoft straightens out their act.
Open Source is perceived as being the new standard, and thus becomes the new standard.
However, this only means that some (large) organisation has to be bold enough and take the first step, and say goodbye to MSFT office. And who is in a better position to do so (and force all parties that want to be involved with your organisations to adapt) than the state? It is the only organisation that can change laws and thus make this happen.
I expect that this strangling grip of MSFT Office can only be broken by governments/states to take a first step. This means that:
- citizens do not have to be forced to buy expensive software to deal with the state (which is immoral IMO)
- companies that want to deal with the state have to adapt and use an open file format as well
The benefits of being freed from the current hostage situation shall be enormous, and everyone shall be grateful for it, even if the initial steps may cause some inconvenience and money. Sometimes you have to be not so shortsighted plan a bit further ahead.>I noticed clueless people spreading FUD like "Linux is not ready for the desktop" as if they get paid for doing it.
It's very likely that some of them aren't clueless and are paid by Microsoft. I'm sure they know what to do with moderator points too (and I'm probably about to be on the receiving end).
1. posted by anonymous cowards
2. lacking any names of "SUCCESSFUL LUNIX-RUNNING COMPANY"
3. always state that apparently normal peon computer users LOVE LUNUX.
1994? You are full of shit. I will call you out on that, and demand details:
1. name of company
2. your name
3. exactly what software were you were using in 1994
4. what sort of company was this? a unix software company? you and your mom selling cookies?
HOWEVER: since this is a passive Micro-$$$oft bash, you will be modded to allow people to see this and realize the true SUPERIORITY of LINOX.
Having seen the current quality of UK Government computer systems: a poor mish-mash of different systems, some of them decades old, and some of them windows. I got an experience placement at a low level Govt. org recently, at the IT dept, and most of the systems were absolutely terrible. The systems are all different, and the file types that are used to communicate between the different systems have to be continuously converted. Maybe a free system such as linux would be a good way to escape this problem and bring a uniform standard that would be affordable for the UK.
Joseph Farthing
http://josephfarthing.com
LOL, these windoze cheerleaders are just too funny!
Well, for starters, just about anything beats windoze xp for flexibility, scalability, and usability!
And the way he calls IBM, Novell and Oracle "open sores hippies" - such ignorance would be funny if it wasn't soo sad, and truly sad if it weren't so funny...
Thank You
But honestly, how long is someone going to play minesweeper or solitaire, anyway? Im talking about the ability to use some Win32 app some other company created, or some custom or legacy program that always crops up.
Interestingly enough, that is the very reason Windows is the desktop king- companies liked being able to use the same applications.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
I work for Westminster Council (Central London) and there is no talk of moving to Linux. I wish there was. We are constantly having to get IT out to fix things. I am stuck using NT 4.0. I recently got a bettercomp but the last one was a Pentium 100 with 16mgs RAM. Its was so slow. Also the Oracle database we use is terrible.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
Software is an issue, but not in the way that might be expected. UK Councils use typical Office Automation S/W on desktops like everybody else, but they also use a lot of custom software packages (electoral roll, council tax, housing, etc) that traditionally ran on Unix minis. In a way going back to *nix on the desktop will solve more problems than it will cause.
You lazy bummer!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"Christianity" is spelt with an uppercase C.
"Islam" is spelt with an uppercase I.