IBM Launches Linux Desktop in India

fr1st post by IamTheRealMike · 2003-06-02 00:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'll read the article in a moment. Until then, what do you mean Desktop Linux is dead in the developed world? What I see is people desperate to use it, but held back by lack of ease-of-use, compatability and too much inertia. I don't see people saying "oh, who cares, getting done over by Redmond isn't so bad".

Hmph.

Re:fr1st post by j0nkatz · 2003-06-02 00:50 · Score: 0

Who says Linux is hard to use? The reason most people perceive it that way is because they have been brought up on Windows. They never learn anything else.

--
Don't mod me, bro'!!!!
Re:fr1st post by pkunzipper · 2003-06-02 00:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

Agreed. It's not dead. I am not around too many people willing to experiment with Linux (Learn), but I took the initiative myself after having spent the last 6 months reading about Microsoft's DRM initiatives and related materials. Even on TV IBM is advertising Linux (and some UNIX) use. Good move, as is the India initative. If Alternative systems are going to be successful, growing large outside of the US will be a big step (like building an army) prior to returning to the US, which at that point may be falling behind in software technologies (not likely, but DRM is a luddite move). If I'm going to invest $1000 in a box, just like $10,000 (or whatever) in a car, I'm going to use it to its fullest potectial, and maitain the freedom to modify it as I see fit without having to pay $100 a pop for "licences"
Re:fr1st post by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 01:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

The fact that they have been brought up using windows, and are used to using windows, and linux is very different than windows is exactly what makes linux hard to use. Just as a dvorak keyboard is hard to use. People don't have the time to devote to learning new things when, in their opinion, the way they are doing things as is works out fine.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re:fr1st post by akpcep · 2003-06-02 01:21 · Score: 1

Linux IS less user-friendly, although it's good to see at least some distros making an effort (MDK etc). I personally can't be arsed learning it, because as another poster has said, I can do everything I want to do with a Windows PC.

--
Hmmm.
Re:fr1st post by TopShelf · 2003-06-02 02:14 · Score: 4, Interesting

On the contrary, I think those people that are "desperate" to use Linux on the desktop have the technical skills such that ease-of-use isn't really an issue. And for most people (I assume you're talking about general computer users), they don't see themselves as getting "done over by Redmond". For them, Windows is what they use at work, so it's the easiest to use at home. The movement towards desktop Linux isn't coming from the user base, but rather the administrative one.

--
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Re:fr1st post by aonaran · 2003-06-02 02:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem as I see it (and I am a Linux desktop user) is that certain technologies that people want to use really are more difficult on Linux.
Take DVD burning for example. I bought a DVD burner for 2 main reasons, #1 as a backup drive (I thought about tape, but decided it was better for me to use DVD as it takes less space and has other functions) and #2 to make copys of my expensive originals of both software and dvd-video so that I don't have to worry about scratches ruining a $100+ set.

While DVD-video was more difficult than I'd anticipated on both windows and Linux platforms, it was easy to do once I was able to track down the right combination of software for windows ...still haven't found what I want for Linux several months later.

Backups are very simple in Windows and I was able to find a number of tools to do the job, my linux box I've resorted to using a Norton Ghost 2003 boot disk :( not exactly what I'd wanted. I'd prefer to be able to do everything within Linux, without shutting the machine down.

Other things have popped up over the years, IDE raid was one not too long ago... so was SoundBlaster Live support (still not 100% satisfied with that, though ALSA does a pretty good job)

Over all I love Linux, I've been using it exclusivly on my desktop for 3 years now, but I still think Windows is where to be if you have to have bleeding edge hardware. Also I've found that the support for Palm and PocketPC handhelds on Linux has left a lot to be desired. I sync with my PC at work for this reason, as much as I hate having my personal appointments (even flagged as private) stored on the exchange server at work.
Not that I have anything to hide, it's just that that's none of their business. I'm quite confident that none of my co-workers care/have timt to waste reading my personal stuff, but the fact they can is a bit creepy to me.
Re:fr1st post by Lumpy · 2003-06-02 03:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

People don't have the time to devote to learning new things...

Bull-ca-ca...

People DO have the time, it's technophobia that keeps them from doing it.

They are SCARED of anything new or different.

This is the underlying problem. I have found that it is extremely simple to switch and entire windows based sales force to KDE + linux. over 50% of them had it down and were up to speed in 24 hours. the rest were fine by weeks end.. Oh and productivity was not impacted contrary to the gloom-and -doom sayers that haunt here...

if you tell users to quit acting like 3 year olds and get to work Open office and KDE seems much easier to deal with initially, and by the end of the week, I had given out 30 cd's with Open Office on it to sales people for home use and told them "Yes it's legal and you can give it away to everyone else you know.. Yes free and legal."

also today I have had 2 people ask if Linux can be used at home and where they can learn more...

yeah, linux is too damned hard to use...

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:fr1st post by Glonoinha · 2003-06-02 04:05 · Score: 1

>to modify it as I see fit without having to pay $100 a pop for "licences"

If only there was a way to get Microsoft warez without paying for them. Like maybe not getting it in a pretty box with documentation and support, but just getting a burned CD with 'Windows 2000 Pro' written in magic marker on it.

Then we could compare the software on their merits and not on a cost / benefit ratio.

Naw, that would never happen.

-:-

I wonder, in the US where piracy is considered the least, what the number of unpaid for number of Windows seats is compared to the Linux installed base. This isn't a troll, merely an opening for discussion ... pirates use the software they want to based on their needs and desires, not based on price.

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Re:fr1st post by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 04:22 · Score: 0

I think you brought up a good point:

"Yes it's legal and you can give it away to everyone else you know.. Yes free and legal."

This is what scares Microsoft about the GPL. Firstly, the idea of getting software free can only be a competitive pressure on them to lower their prices. And secondly, the idea that software is legal to share diminishes the stigma of illegal copying, which is a legitimate concern.

I don't think they are scared of Linux taking over the desktop. But on the server, that's a different story, they've already lost the battle and they know it.
Re:fr1st post by Eric+Damron · 2003-06-02 05:10 · Score: 1

"...and linux is very different than windows"

I always have to smile when people make this statement. It's true that Linux is very different under the hood but when using KDE or GNOME those differences are minimized.

I still open my word processor by clicking on an icon. My CD and floppy are auto mounted for me. I have a "start" button that displays lists of programs that I can run by clicking on the choice.

Not so very different and not rocket science. The average user will not see anything that would "stop the show."

--
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Re:fr1st post by grimani · 2003-06-02 06:19 · Score: 1

heh. once, when i was a little boy maybe 2 months old a really hot college girl gave me a kiss. it happened again a week later, but that was it.

therefore i claim all the girls love me.

that's the problem with your post - two people converting to Linux on their own doesn't neccessarily represent the vast majority out there. for every two you can come up with, i can think of ten others who are not only befuddled by Linux, but even Windows also.
Re:fr1st post by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 06:57 · Score: 0

Exaxctly :) A simple goal of a gui for linux. Whether being kde or gnome. If a user has to do it using the command line, and can't do it using the gui, then it's not ready yet. Sure there are stuff in windows that you can do using the command line, but you can still do it using the gui if you want to. Which most users opt for. I'm not a developer so I can't inplement this stuff myself. I'm just a networker :) Now specific things that are needed:

1. Change resolutions/refresh rates/colors on the fly (this is already been fixed - thank you :) )
2. Install/update hardware drivers like you can in windows. For example, view a list of hardware installed including any unknown hardware that doesn't have a driver for it. Right click on it, choose update driver, browse to where the new driver is, if there's more then one driver there, highlight the newest one but enable the user to select an older one if they want to, hit ok and it'll be installed. And if necessary, a reboot.
3. Disable hardware devices as well like in windows where you can right click on it and disable it.
4. Installing new software. I can't advocate this enough. Make it simple. Include all needed files/libraries "with" the application's installer. It's stupid to not include it and to assume the users computer has it already. Now the first time I installed Mozilla I was like wow! A windows style installer that makes it simple to install. However it didn't include a way for me to remove it automatically like I could with installing it. As well, the installer doesn't make shortcuts to it in the programs menu or desktop, getting me to do it manually. The user shouldn't have to do this.
5. Now I know compiling applications from source is something that is desired so make a gui to do it from. Just open up the compiling program and choose the directory the application source code is in and make it do the automatic commands that is needed to compile it in the background showing a nice graphical percentage bar of how much each step is completed. You can still go do it through the command line but that shouldn't be necessary, only if the user wants to. Big example here, the debian based release libranet 2.8 which allows you to compile a new kernel within a gui. It's great, doesn't work all the time, but its a good start.
6. Developing the gui should not be like adding a few new features and upping its .x release number. It should be a major release, not a minor one every 6 months. This is the same thing for the distributions. Having a new distribution every 6 months doesn't work. It's easier if you have a new version atleast every 2 years or so. The support cost is less as well.
7. Stop assuming the user is a developer. Think of them as a user instead of a developer and you'll start to understand more on why somethings are so hard for them. In other words, quit being selfish that if you can do it, anyone can.
8. Create virtual paths that every distribution follows like windows has. For example in windows there is %systemroot% which points to c:\winnt This way, it doesn't matter which partition u install it to, it'll work. Same thing with applications. It ain't that hard. Hard coding things doesn't work.

Well thats all I got to say for now on this. Hopefully they'll listen.
Re:fr1st post by pkunzipper · 2003-06-02 07:06 · Score: 1

Thepoint that I'm trying to get across is not about the current ways in which we use Win2k Pro (which can beduplicated using the same Key, unlike XP(...those whores)) but rather, in the very near future, MS has plans to implement software that prevents this and many other functions that users urrently "exploit" to their use. This will end the "grey area" era for Windows users and most likely many Mac apps too, and rights will suddemly become black and white, hance incompatible with the human mind.

For all those idiots that posted "Linux sux" and "Linux is dead" at the top of this, you are theones we will be layghing at when you are denied access to a certain file orcommand just becuase you were too ignorant about the politics of computers, and too exhuberant and trustworthy of Windows.
Re:fr1st post by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 07:34 · Score: 0

hello mc-fly....

I CONVERTED an entire sales department's computers.

the computers htat 30 sales people use in the office.

and I had a side effect of 2 of them wanting it for home use.

so net effect... 32 converted... out of 30. Them's 108% effective!
Re:fr1st post by Daengbo · 2003-06-02 13:58 · Score: 1

We just sold 100,000 Linux machines in Thailand. Check my sig for the entire article. 1,000,000 by the end of the year!

--
Put identity in the browser.
Re:fr1st post by jak163 · 2003-06-04 04:45 · Score: 1

I'm with you there--I've got it installed and probably put 50-75 hours into it, but I still can't successfully log in to my ISP.

ME! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:46 · Score: 0, Funny

Who says that Linux on desktop is dead.

Me!!

--Bill

Re:ME! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 08:05 · Score: 0

I know where you live...

You are linuxgames.com's "3dfx troll" and "DVD case troll".

You are gay. kiss me wild he-woman!

IBM's reply to SCO? by pe1rxq · 2003-06-02 00:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Could we see this as the first real reply to the SCO case? Something like: 'Up yours SCO!' or more like: 'Lalalalalah Can't hear you!' ??

Jeroen

--
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/

Re:IBM's reply to SCO? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:18 · Score: 0

Could we see this as the first real reply to the SCO case?
Yea, "We're fscked. We're turning into Indian Business Machines now."
Re:IBM's reply to SCO? by zonix · 2003-06-02 01:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

The parent is not a troll! (moderator on crack)

This move shows that IBM is not at all hesitant and underscores their commitment to deliver GNU/Linux solutions despite SCO's obvious spreading of FUD.
z

--
What would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
Re:IBM's reply to SCO? by antiMStroll · 2003-06-02 13:44 · Score: 1

And that American IP laws don't apply in Asia.

Practical!? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:49 · Score: 0

Why link to a "more practical" story if no one R's TFA anyway?! :P

What linux release? by dTb · 2003-06-02 00:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

The articles don't state what company has put together the desktop software, just that the hardware is from IBM. Is this another partnership for Red Hat or have IBM rolled their own?

Re:What linux release? by CrayzyJ · 2003-06-02 04:43 · Score: 1

IBM has repeated stated they will not create a distro. I would assume this is RH.

--
Holy s-, it's Jesus!
Re:What linux release? by ameoba · 2003-06-02 06:10 · Score: 1

In the past, I've seen IBM pimping TurboLinux.

--
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Re:What linux release? by jonadab · 2003-06-02 06:50 · Score: 1

> In the past, I've seen IBM pimping TurboLinux.

For the desktop?

I can't see that. For the desktop, you want... RH or mdk or
whatnot, not TurboLinux. Yes, I've used TurboLinux, though it
was a couple of versions ago. But that was on a cgi server.
I can't see putting it on a desktop system intended for end
users.

--
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.

Via has much better offerings... by jkrise · 2003-06-02 00:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

E-Sys has launched Linux PCs in India some 2 months ago - priced from $200 onwards (no monitor). The highest model comes in at about $300 which includes a financial accouting package as well.

LUGs are very active in India - and the recent drives by MS thru NASSCOM (like the BSA) is forcing lots of folks to switch over. Every day, new firms spring up offering Linux support for Home PCs as well as business segments.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Re:Via has much better offerings... by ergonal · 2003-06-02 00:55 · Score: 1, Funny

Yeah, check out this ILUG (as they call them) for Mumbai. VERY active!

What Linux needs by OmniVector · 2003-06-02 00:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think the first step we'll see in Linux becoming big on the desktop (in a general work area) is overseas governments. Eventually it may spread to the schools of those overseas countries. After that has happened, other countries will follow because the infrastructure is already there to switch since another country has put in the time and effort to make an enmass switch. Eventually it might get some usage in the large scale due to students using it at home after trying it at school. This is a *BIG* deal if we can get just one government to start the dominos.

--
- tristan

Re:What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 00:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why does it have to be an oversea's government? Let's "start the dominos" right here... I dont think the US Government has that super a relationsihp with M$ anyways.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re: What Linux needs by Black+Parrot · 2003-06-02 00:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

> I think the first step we'll see in Linux becoming big on the desktop (in a general work area) is overseas governments. Eventually it may spread to the schools of those overseas countries. After that has happened, other countries will follow.

What about all the CS & EE students back home who use it at the university and get used to having a big pile of free, powerful, and stable apps, and demand the same thing on their desktop both at work and at home after they graduate?

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re:What Linux needs by OmniVector · 2003-06-02 01:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

because the piracy scene in US companies and governments isn't neary as bad as many overseas countries. not to mention US is a fairly rich country, so the average piracy even amongst citizens isn't as bad. other governments, particularly ones like germany where they have their own linux distro (suse).

I believe that too many people in power today in the US (managers, government officials, etc) think that if you don't have to pay for it, then it must be: a) too good to be true, b) there has to be a catch, or c) you get what you pay for and many of us on slashdot know that just isn't true.

--
- tristan
Re: What Linux needs by Asmodeus · 2003-06-02 01:08 · Score: 2

They use cygwin
Re:What Linux needs by cdc179 · 2003-06-02 01:20 · Score: 1

MOD this down...This is directly out of the article...anybody can cp & paste.
Re: What Linux needs by AKnightCowboy · 2003-06-02 01:22 · Score: 1

What about all the CS & EE students back home who use it at the university and get used to having a big pile of free, powerful, and stable apps, and demand the same thing on their desktop both at work and at home after they graduate?
That's what Kazaa is for. Windows software is actually really nice when it isn't freezing up my computer.
Re:What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 01:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, I work for the government and we (people in my office) certainly support the use of linux on desktops. However, security is a major concern, and rightly so. We have solved this problem with a very restrictive firewall, this can be a nuisance, but I think it's worth it.

In fact, I think the only hesitation on the part of the IT staff here on allowing users to migrate to linux is security. Argue all you want, but a default install of a commercial linux distro is much more likely to be cracked than a default install of Windows.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re: What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 01:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

What about the CS & EE students who use Windows, and software developed for the Windows operating system. Large companies like M$ are not that stupid, they realize the market has potential and therefore market directly it and offer giant price breaks. I go to Virginia Tech, Microsoft publishes ads in our newspaper that say things such as "Buy Windows XP NOW in your book store for $20! Once you graduate you will have to pay HUNDREDS!"

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re:What Linux needs by watzinaneihm · 2003-06-02 01:37 · Score: 1

This Article in ZDnet India shows what the President of India thinks of the whole thing. But Unfortunately the President (like the Queen of England )is a rather ceremonial post.

--
.ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
Re:What Linux needs by OmniVector · 2003-06-02 01:40 · Score: 4, Informative

check out the grsecurity patch for the linux kernel. bundle that with some restrictive iptable rules and i guarantee you'll have a more secure machine than a locked windows box.

The grsecurity patch has a slew of options on masking processes, and it can restrict process execution based on file permissions, stack execution, port creation based on user privledges on the kernel level, and file i/o on the kernel level. all in all, i think this kernel patch puts linux on par with some of the more anal distros like openbsd (although i can't say linux encrypts things as much as openbsd :)

--
- tristan
Re:What Linux needs by cdc179 · 2003-06-02 01:44 · Score: 1

MOD this down...This is directly out of the article...anybody can cp & paste.
Re: What Linux needs by weierstrass · 2003-06-02 01:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

When you start offering that kind of discount, you lose a lot of the advantage you have as near-monopoly. MS can't sell to everyone at that kind of price. If the "free as in speech" model offers "free as in beer" software for many users, there has to be real compatibility / support services / security / etc advantages to keep customers with proprietary software.

--
my password really is 'stinkypants'
Re:What Linux needs by tsa · 2003-06-02 02:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

Security is always a concern regardless of the OS in question. And I agree with you on the default install thing, but I hope you realize that your IT folks are paid to make a non-default optimal solution to your specific needs ;-)

--
-- Cheers!
Re:What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 02:14 · Score: 1

Right, but our specific needs do not require linux. Linux could potentially be more efficient and offer a great ROI, but the overhead involved in developing a policy regarding security in linux is incredible.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re:What Linux needs by MKalus · 2003-06-02 02:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Europe (espeically Germany) seems to be active on that one.

The city of Munich decided to go with Linux (IBM & SuSE) and thus Microsoft is out of the door.

Nothing big one might think if you forget two things:

1. Munich is pretty "rich" in comparision to other municipalities.
2. Munich is one of the "high tech" cities in the country.

If IBM and SuSE can pull this off more parts of Germany will most likely make the switch and then it won't be that long until the federal government will go the same route. It already was a close call last year and I bet that Microsoft is already starting to sweat, they tried EVERYTHING to prevent Munich from "deserting" the Microsoft path.

M.

--
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
Re: What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 02:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

The idea isnt that they are going to continue offering such a discount. The idea is rather that they will hook you young, as a college student, when you are learning how to use the software that you will use as a professional. Once you get used to say, using MathCAD in Windows XP you are going to want to stick with it, and in order to do so when you graduate you are going to have to shell out a few grand.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re:What Linux needs by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:39 · Score: 0

CmdrTaco is on record as saying you get what you pay for.
Re: What Linux needs by xRelisH · 2003-06-02 02:39 · Score: 1

Well, a lot oof companies in north america, or even up here in ontario canada use linus for their development. I worked for one on my last coop term ( I go to a coop university that alternates coop and study terms) and linux was used extensively in testing and development. We are currently looking into switching even more toward linux as we have more and more of our internal tools available for windows.
Re: What Linux needs by LX.onesizebigger · 2003-06-02 02:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

The nice thing is that this won't work, because $20 is a bigger deal to a poor uni student than $100 (or whatever Windows currently ships at, or will ship at) is to a university graduate with a well-paid job. And after all, $20 is still more than $0. When adjusted for a student's budget, M$ discounts really aren't discounts at all.

--
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
Re: What Linux needs by Black+Parrot · 2003-06-02 02:50 · Score: 5, Funny

> Well, a lot oof companies in north america, or even up here in ontario canada use linus for their development.

I knew Transmeta used him, but I didn't realize he got around that much!

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re: What Linux needs by mjmalone · 2003-06-02 03:34 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, it DOES work. $100 for the full suit of Matlab applications, for example, is MUCH less expensive than the $5000 or so you would have to pay to buy a commercial licence. Also, schools require students to purchase software like this. In order to be in Engineering at Virginia Tech, for example, students must have Inventor, Matlab, Windows XP, Acrobat, CAD and a whole host of other software. The package costs about $900, but commercial licenses for similar software would be well over $100,000.

--
Visualize the world of wine
Re: What Linux needs by greenrd · 2003-06-02 03:40 · Score: 1

But Cygwin is so slooooow!
Doesn't NT's "terminal" still run in some bastardised 16-bit emulation mode!? For whatever reason, there's some really insane bottlenecks going on there.

--
Female Prison Rape in NY
Re: What Linux needs by rifter · 2003-06-02 03:46 · Score: 1

Actually, it DOES work. $100 for the full suit of Matlab applications, for example, is MUCH less expensive than the $5000 or so you would have to pay to buy a commercial licence. Also, schools require students to purchase software like this. In order to be in Engineering at Virginia Tech, for example, students must have Inventor, Matlab, Windows XP, Acrobat, CAD and a whole host of other software. The package costs about $900, but commercial licenses for similar software would be well over $100,000.

And for the previous poster's information, if the student does not have this $900, well, this is what financial aid is for.
Re: What Linux needs by The+Master+Control+P · 2003-06-02 04:01 · Score: 1

From the Microsoft Information Minister:

"There are NO stable Linux programs in the US! They are committing suicide throwing themselves against Windows. We will defeat them! No one wants to use Linux!"
Re: What Linux needs by theCoder · 2003-06-02 04:26 · Score: 2, Informative

Only if you run command.exe instead of cmd.exe. Or, you could be like me and when you have the misfortune of being on a Windows PC, run bash.exe. Cygwin (at least the command line stuff) has never been slow(er than the rest of the PC) for me.

--
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
Re: What Linux needs by Black+Parrot · 2003-06-02 04:28 · Score: 1

> Actually, it DOES work. $100 for the full suit of Matlab applications, for example, is MUCH less expensive than the $5000 or so you would have to pay to buy a commercial licence.

And of course I've been in a university bookstore and saw Matlab for Linux sporting the sam $100 price tag.

But you seem to be missing the bigger point. This isn't going to expand the desktop for Microsoft, because Microsoft already 0wns the desktop. The same cannot be said for Linux.

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re: What Linux needs by LX.onesizebigger · 2003-06-02 05:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

Mmm... another reason not to study in the U.S. :)

My uni runs Redmond on most departments, but the School of Computing uses Linux exclusively, and it's a requirement to learn it, and for a good reason. As a double-degree student with BBA being one of the diplomas I will hopefully get, I will most likely make damn sure not to employ anybody without academic or professional experience with a POSIX operating system.

Sensibly, the school does not require anyone to buy any software licenses. In fact, it is not even a requirement to have a computer. The school has 24-7 swipe-card access labs with plenty of machines. Obviously, regardless of any Microsoft discounts, with $0 extra per machine running Linux, having more machines is more feasible if one does not use proprietary software. Also, the machines are not the fanciest things around (a lot of them are Pentium-based from a generation or two ago, or Celery-based). Another thing you couldn't do with Windows, unless you wanted to run 3.11.

--
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
Re:What Linux needs by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 06:39 · Score: 0

But isn't that what the IT staff for ? To find a secure non-default install ? A more important point would be, that once hacked, a unix machine is a lot more powerful than a windows machine, because of its powerful remote control abilities (shell).
Re: What Linux needs by HiThere · 2003-06-02 06:47 · Score: 1

Umnh...
When I went to school, financial aid would have been for food, clothing, books, and tuition. Not that I got much. Well, I least I didn't end up in hock, and I did manage to graduate after 6 years or so. But working sure slows you down.

$900 more? Sorry. I was lucky the weeks I could afford a milkshake. And I spent a lot of weeks living on soy-bean and sea-weed soup. (Ugh! I *didn't know how to fix them, or have time to do it right if I had known.)

And I live in the US. You know. The wealthy place.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:What Linux needs by ecc0 · 2003-06-02 08:17 · Score: 1

...anybody can cp & paste.

As is perfectly exemplified by your double posting! :>
Re:What Linux needs by kavau · 2003-06-02 08:36 · Score: 1

I bet that Microsoft is already starting to sweat, they tried EVERYTHING to prevent Munich from "deserting" the Microsoft path.
That's right. Steve Ballmer even interrupted his ski vacation in switzerland for a last-minute attempt to "save" Munich from Open Source.
Re: What Linux needs by Reservoir+Penguin · 2003-06-02 09:54 · Score: 1

Wow scary, thank God I live in Russia then, I can get all of that on an enginerrng soft collection cd at a soft kiosk for about 2 bucks :)

--
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Re: What Linux needs by rifter · 2003-06-02 13:56 · Score: 1

As a former student myself, I feel your pain. However, I recently befriended someone who was a little better at dealing with the system. Her school recently came up with a plan whereby they would get all education students to buy laptops. One of the components of this plan was that they mandated the purchase of this ~$900 laptop.

Since it was mandatory, the cost of the laptop went into the official need calculation for the students' financial aid and most students got that covered. In those cases where for some reason the normal available aid was not enough, there were emergency loans available.

So essentially getting stuff like this depends to some degree on your uni and their financial aid department, but it could be done (or at least it worked in this case). YMMV. I wish I had gone to a school that mandated that we got "free" laptops (yes these people will have to pay for it eventually, but until then it is "free money" right? woohoo!)

Of course as I write this I am trying to figure a plan to pay off my student loans before I die :P.
Re:What Linux needs by Joey7F · 2003-06-03 00:19 · Score: 1

And eventually it will come to the United States! Just like the way the Metric Sys...oh wait

--Joey

Re:Who says Linux is dead? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:52 · Score: 0

10 minutes into an article that has "linux" and "dead" in it, and STILL no "Linux is DYING" trolls. What, are they all asleep still?

IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

Does anyone know if IBM is making Debian GNU/Linux available on these systems? It would be fitting for the only truly free Linux distribution to be delivered pre-installed on these systems in such a poverty-stricken country. I'm sure IBM will do great support for their hardware (they have been impeccable on the service contract on our department's 'Regatta' p690 POWER4 system (32 CPUs really make dselect fly!!!). The only question that remains is the software aspect of the deal. So...Does anyone know of any reliable apt-get mirrors in India?

Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by anandcp · 2003-06-02 01:11 · Score: 0

poverty-stricken country.
FYI, stop clubbing India along with countries poor in Africa, all the while thinking the 'Western' world is the 'Greatest' and Richest. Our economy grows at 6% Per Year. How much does yours grow? (>snicker)

--
-------- Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate -- the bombs always hit the ground.
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:02 · Score: 0

Our economy grows at 6% Per Year.

Yeah but 6% of $187.26 isn't much to write home about. When you leave out the contributions from the vindaloo vendors, that growth is even less impressive.

Thank you,

Western Bigot Troll
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 03:24 · Score: 0

ehehe and what do you pay for support and what did you pay for that server? do you really thing joe average $500 PC buyer gets that level of support?
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by dodobh · 2003-06-02 06:11 · Score: 1

ilug-bom and IIT Chennai both have mirrors.
ftp://ilug-bom.org.in/
ftp://iitm.ac.in / (IIRC)

--
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by HiThere · 2003-06-02 06:54 · Score: 1

If it will run Linux, then it will run Debian. There could be proprietary drivers, but that seems really unlikely for a low end system. So if it doesn't come with your favorite distribution, you can just change.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 09:04 · Score: 0

Uh, India, as a country, has the largest amount of people under the poverty line in the world-- seriously.
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by pixelite · 2003-06-02 12:33 · Score: 1

but that seems really unlikely for a low end system.
I thought low end systems are more prone to proprietary drivers, since they are more likely to have devices such as winmodems in them.

--
>>Sig under construction
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by sn00ker · 2003-06-02 13:36 · Score: 1

No shit. They have the second largest population, too.
What is it as a percentage? Somewhere around the US's level, IIRC.

--
"God, root, what is difference?" - Pitr, userfriendly
Re:IBM and Debian GNU/Linux? by HiThere · 2003-06-03 04:02 · Score: 1

They're more likely to be windows only. But if they run Linux at all, they're unlikely to have the fancy proprietary add-ons. Like fancy video cards. And as they're being sold with Linux, the drivers for the modems exist. Most of the ones that I'm familiar with are downloadable without charge. (This can, of course, be a problem, since it's the modem that you're trying to make work. Better get the driver before you re-install.) And they're small enough to fit on a floppy. But better yet, there are fewer incompatible systems than there used to be.

That said, this is one case, so a probability argument doesn't make much sense. Checking on the hardware would, if I were likely to buy it. But it probably (wild guess!) uses that lucent chip-set that is a "win-modem", but has an open driver. And is quite suitable for low-end systems.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:53 · Score: 1, Troll

Linux: Making it even cheaper to outsource your job to India!

I bet you're all glad you supported it now.

Re:Excellent by frodo+from+middle+ea · 2003-06-02 01:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

Dude,
Linux or no linux, jobs/projects are being out sourced to india because of one simple reason . CHEAP LABOUR.
If you think outsourcing to india is problem, wait till china catches up. they have even better infrastructure and cheaper labour .right now the only problem for them is ability to speak english.
In case you forgot it's called capitalism.

--
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:11 · Score: 0

Yeah, but if all those Indians and Chinese had to pay the MS tax -- well, don't you think that might have slowed it all down a little?

That's what you get for not thinking long-term.
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:17 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yeah, like pirating software from MS ever kept them awake nights... To them, Windows is already free.
Re:Excellent by Greyfox · 2003-06-02 01:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

That's why the current slide in the dollar is so important. Here's to hoping the dollar bottoms out somewhere in the yen territory. But hopefully not down where the Romanian Lei is. Then India and China would start outsourcing THEIR IT projects here. Of course, the whole India question could be moot if they don't settle their differences with Pakistan. I don't think either of those countries really realizes the power a nuclear weapon contains, and a nuclear exchange between them would mess up economies in the entire region for years.

--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Re:Excellent by Flabby+Boohoo · 2003-06-02 01:28 · Score: 0

Are you Frodo from middle east?
Re:Excellent by frodo+from+middle+ea · 2003-06-02 01:31 · Score: 1

No actually i am from a land, where programmers don't make stupid mistake of trunketting some one's user name, without giving them a chance to change it.

--
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Re:Excellent by hey · 2003-06-02 02:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, English (the international language for all its faults) is far more widespread in India. I don't see China catching up in this area any time soon.
Of course, when China decides it wants to do something they can really go for it. They might say all students have to pass an tough English test before they graduate but this seems unlikely to me.
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:22 · Score: 0

"Outside of Holland, MI" isn't narrowing things down much ;)
Re:Excellent by PsibrII · 2003-06-02 03:14 · Score: 1

Seems I saw a sight or two on the net about radioactive strata going back about 10,000 years in the Gobi desert region. Also something about some big war that was supposed ta have happened back then according to indian legends. One might guess from this, that another nuclear war will probably take more than just a "few" years to recover from.
Re:Excellent by univgeek · 2003-06-02 03:23 · Score: 1

I don't think either of those countries really realizes the power a nuclear weapon contains, and a nuclear exchange between them would mess up economies in the entire region for years.

Looks like you don't really realize the power of nucs. Years will more likely be centuries or millenia.

--
All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
Re:Excellent by FatherOfONe · 2003-06-02 03:43 · Score: 1

What will happen is that some idiot project manager and sales person will say that their coders DO speak and write English, they will then say that "THEY" will be gathering the requirements. They will then bid the project at an unreasonably low rate and they will win. This is what is happening now with projects done in India. I predict that India will be devistated when the flood of work moves to China in the next 10 years. Now with that human rights will start to leak in to China (stuff like not killing baby girls and such), and their price will start to go up. Also I believe that I.T. unions and taxes will be put up in the U.S. to help stop the flood of work going to China. This will probably not happen in a Republican office though...
I do have to say that I have seen a small revolt of customers here in the U.S. that are starting to demand coders "sit" at their location, and they actually interview them. This tends to weed out most of the Indian programmers over here.

--
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
Re:Excellent by rifter · 2003-06-02 03:49 · Score: 1

Yeah, like pirating software from MS ever kept them awake nights... To them, Windows is already free.

Yes, but so are the viruses, security problems, and crashes. Pirated Windows is only free if your time is worthless.
Re:Excellent by singular_google_brai · 2003-06-02 04:24 · Score: 1

Like all the manufacturing has gone to China (have you recently seen any stuff without "made in china" on ur supermarket visit), the lower level grunge work will shift to places where it is profitable for the corporations ...thats the free markets at play !
Re:Excellent by sirdude · 2003-06-02 04:41 · Score: 1

I think that the biggest plus point in outsourcing work (not necessarily IT) to India other than cheap skilled labour is the fact that most indians speak English. China is devoting a lot of resources to get it's population up to speed in this matter, but has a long way to go yet... But a Linux Desktop for $850.. who tf is going to buy that crap? unless they expect a sharp drop in the dollar from Rs.47 to Rs 24, I don't see anything groundbreaking happening... :/ Besides all software is free in India. I noticed Windows 98 SE CDs for sale on the footpath for about $3 the last time I was here... And there's not been a peep out of the makers of the Simputer (also reviewed at /.) later...
Re:Excellent by sirdude · 2003-06-02 04:48 · Score: 1

lol and a nuclear exchange between... the US/Japan and North Korea will make their economies rosier? Anyways, the two countries in question do realise the power of a nuclear weapon... which is why they have 'em :P

Here's to hoping the USD value doubles in the next week or so... I'm expecting my pay cheque :)
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 04:49 · Score: 0

If US could do it while having so much nuclear power and cold war with the former USSR, I am sure sure India can do it too. I don't remember to recall any situation where India's policies has shown any immaturity with respect to nuclear weapons.

These countries do realize the power of nuclear weapons, I guess that is why they are in the process of peaceful negotiations. Moreover, nuclear weapons have an anomalous effect to increasing restraint, as countries realize their power and try even more to stay away from war.
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 05:03 · Score: 0

How will unions help IT workers?

By taking more and more of our dwindling pay?
By decreasing the quality of work to the lowest common denominator? (that's what unionize means)
By creating another big powerful organization to tell us what to do?
By cozying up with the government to protect them from being prosecuted for "protecting" us?

Or is it just that the union will force us all to vote democrat, even after we're dead; or at the very least, use our money to support their political campaigns whether we like it or not?

Tariffs, on the other hand, I support. That's specifically what their for, to balance the cost of living with the price of goods and services.
Re:Excellent by Eyston · 2003-06-02 08:34 · Score: 1

Linux or no linux, jobs/projects are being out sourced to india because of one simple reason . CHEAP LABOUR.

Two reasons:

Cheap Labour
Skilled Labour

Cheap Labour is everywhere.

-Eyston
Re:Excellent by RevSmiley · 2003-06-02 11:22 · Score: 1

"Or is it just that the union will force us all to vote democrat, even after we're dead; or at the very least, use our money to support their political campaigns whether we like it or not?"

Yes that is exactly what it means. With the addition that money will be used illegaly if necessary to ensure a democrat win. Democrats
ensuring your wages go to union supported politicians instead of your dinner table. My wife is forced to be a union member. The money automaticly comes out of her salary an into to coffers of the democratic party being given away by the CTA. Trying to have teh money returned as is leagl in this state results in harrasment if it just isn't ignored.

--
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 12:22 · Score: 0

3 US Dollars! no way dude! You got ripped off badly!!! You could have gotten W2k or XP Professional for a $1 ;-)
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 12:34 · Score: 0

Just as true as Linux is only free if your time is worthless... and Carpel Tunnel is of no concern.
Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 13:04 · Score: 0

Dude,

Outsourcing overseas is not the problem. All these OpenSource people are writing and giving away the software for free... what company in right mind would pay for their developers when they can get the stuff for free... so lay off the internal staff, keep the minimal number of developers to collect the open source stuff and build a customized app, and you pocket all the savings. What happened to mucisians with MP3 is fast happening to software developers with OpenSource.

Hmmm I wonder... by PS-SCUD · 2003-06-02 00:54 · Score: 5, Funny

If they'll have a cow for their GNU symbol?

*note: this is a good natured jab, not making fun of their religious beliefs

--

"Much work is lost, for the lack of a little more." -Edward H. Harriman

Re:Hmmm I wonder... by coolfrood · 2003-06-02 01:07 · Score: 1

I personally like Gentoo's Larry the Cow. Much cuter than GNU's gnu at least!
Re:Hmmm I wonder... by MsGeek · 2003-06-02 03:10 · Score: 1

A Gnu, aka a Wildebeest, is indeed a relative of the domesticated cow. Link to info from AmericaZoo.Com
Maybe a Hindi-localized Debian should have a Brahma Bull as a logo. It does look very Gnu-like.

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Re:Hmmm I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 05:05 · Score: 0

A Gnu, aka something different than a wildebeast, is also a mammal.
Re:Hmmm I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 08:23 · Score: 0

Stupid Injin dudes!

Get that mother fuckin' animal away from your food and maybe you'll have some food remaining to solve your country's hunder problem with!

morons! And to think, less diseases would be around if you don't have the stupid cows drooling and eating and farting and urinating all over your food!

LOOK AT THE MOTHER FUCKER!

India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:55 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Because :

they don't have an attitude/ego

they really really really want to program(unlike lazy westerners)

They actually meet targets

The quality is as good as western code

the labour is cheap

there are 1.3 billion people (making them second to China)

They use Linux for everything

and in a world of capitalism it makes sense to choose India, if you dont't then you are not doing your job properly in providing the best product for your customers at the lowest price.

maybe the Western tech companies can diverse into something else because when China and India maximise their population the west will have some real tricky market problems.

Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:58 · Score: 0

From the CIA World Factbook: India Population: 1,045,845,226 (July 2002 est.). 1.3 billion people you say? They were surely pumping out a lot of babies in the last year!
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:10 · Score: 0

i wouldnt want to get in a fistfight with them, thats a pretty big gang compared to USA's measly 280 million

still at least our burgers are better
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by frodo+from+middle+ea · 2003-06-02 01:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

As an Indian I beg to differ,
they don't have an attitude/ego
yeah right, i think we indians have one THE most infalted ego about our computing abilities.
they really really really want to program(unlike lazy westerners)
What a gross generalisation. Incase you forgot most of computing initiatives are taken by western countries.
They actually meet targets
Not any faster than anyone else
The quality is as good as western code
How does this make indians better ?
the labour is cheap
no arguments here. But don't forget the labour is cheap because of a weak economy and huge population, which have their own problems.
there are 1.3 billion people (making them second to China)
Out of which 30-40 % are under poverty line
They use Linux for everything
WHAT ?

--
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by AlgUSF · 2003-06-02 01:38 · Score: 1

"Lazy Westerners"?

Than why isn't India a superpower? Why does India have to squabble with Pakistan? If the US had the same problems with Canada as India does with pakistan, we would just crush them.

I have read some code that came from programmers in India, most of it sucked! If we are so lazy, than why do all of your graduate students come to the US to go to school.

--

I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by AlgUSF · 2003-06-02 01:46 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Another rant!

Where exactly was UNIX invented? India? China? Japan?

Where were the first microprocessors fabbed? India? China? Japan?

Where are Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, SGI, and IBM HQ'd? India? China? Japan?

What country was the first and only to land a man on the moon? India? China? Japan?

Lazy westerners? I got your lazy right here!

--

I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:10 · Score: 0

From the CIA World Factbook: India Population: 1,045,845,226 (July 2002 est.).

Considering the CIA didn't even know the location of the Chinese Embasssy in Belgrade during the recent bombing of Serbia (despite that location being publically available for over 5 years), I wouldn't be placing too much faith in anything the CIA has to say.

The dearth of evidence of any 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' in Iraq to date is further damning evidence of the CIA's complete and utter lack of competence outside the realm of Hollywood movies.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:17 · Score: 0

yeah right, i think we indians have one THE most infalted ego about our computing abilities.

haha. During the dot-com boom I worked at a company with around 60 Indian programmers. Most people were pretty nice, but the bragging really got on my nerves. Evey time some Indian dude did something he thought was amazing he had to tell the rest of the group how amazingly bright he was.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by schmink182 · 2003-06-02 02:26 · Score: 1

Nice rant. Perhaps India isn't a superpower since they aren't as bloodthirsty as the US.

Your single data point on code from India is not even remotely significant. Try reading programs from 100 or even 1000 Indians and then come back and share what you've found.

Your last point is a fair one, but directed at the wrong person, since your parent post was quoting its parent post. Better luck next time.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by JohnnyCannuk · 2003-06-02 02:33 · Score: 1

Bring it on baby.... ;)

--
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by OldAndSlow · 2003-06-02 02:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Actually, the development of the microprocessor was outsourced from Japan to the US. Intel had a contract from a Japanese calculator company called Busicom to develop a set of chips for a new calculator. One of Intel's engineers realized that it was easier to build one programmable chip than several function-specific chips, and the 4004 was born.

Intel realized what they had done and bought the rights back from Busicom for $60K. Busicom went broke soon after.
See Intel's version of the story.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by divvy · 2003-06-02 03:01 · Score: 1

As an Indian, I beg to differ with you too. The labour is NOT cheap coz of huge population. It is cheap coz of the inherent cheap labour force and the extremely low cost of living. Both, obviously dont emanate from 'huge populations'. I guess Thailand and Malaysia have "cheap labour " too. But no one talks about their population. Nor does anyone rush to the doors of Malaysia and Thailand for Information Technology. I guess that might give us sometime to ponder over why India is really THE destination for IT outsourcing.
I guess the discussion here is about the brains and not the poverty. If you have brains, you can succeed, especially in the field of Information Technology which is completely INDEPENDENT of government control . Thats another reason why ppl in india are embracing IT as never before.
Talking about brains,the whole concept of competition is so ingrained into every muscle of the Average Indian Guy/Gal [AVG] that with zillions of examination, and the peer and parental pressure to succeed, somehow, even the AVG is sound on his fundamentals and concepts.
Well, the chinese, no doubt, have comparative pool of intelliigence. But I think, the ability to articulate in good English, to write neat reports and comprehend the needs of the west, needs more than a decade of learning. Till then, India should seize this opportunity for development. IT is something that can create zillion rags to riches stories and be the prime-mover of Indian Economy.

About Linux, I have this to say: Indians are the most thrifty people you can ever find. If they have a free software, they will take the trouble to master it and exploit its full power rather than waste money on other softwares. Which might explain the affinity for Linux in Work Environments.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 03:47 · Score: 0

Most of the Indian programmers I've worked with didn't know Linux existed. They were 100% Microsoft junkies.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 03:50 · Score: 1, Interesting

There are exceptions, but most of the Indian programmers I've met in the US (H1b visas) did not have the English skills you speak of. They couldn't have written a report in English to save their lives. They also had no interest in Linux. They were all big fans of Windows.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by rifter · 2003-06-02 03:54 · Score: 1

Considering the CIA didn't even know the location of the Chinese Embasssy in Belgrade during the recent bombing of Serbia (despite that location being publically available for over 5 years), I wouldn't be placing too much faith in anything the CIA has to say.

It depends on who you mean by "they." There were people in the CIA who knew where the embassy was, but the people whose responsibility it was to identify targets for the bombing in question were using an old map. As for the Factbook, I think data like population come from the country in question, in the form of census reports and such, so the data may be innacurate. IIRC they say something to this effect in the factbook.

IANACIAA ;)
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by rifter · 2003-06-02 04:00 · Score: 1

Why are you attacking the choir? The poster was quoting a (presumably western) poster who said westerners were lazy. The poster (as an Indian) pointed out that most of the computing innovation came from the western world. Perhaps you and the others who saw a post from an Indian that happened to contain the words "Lazy Westerners" but failed to notice they were in italics with a refutation below in normal type are indeed Lazy Westerners yourselves ;).

IAALW :)
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-06-02 05:29 · Score: 1

Than why isn't India a superpower? Why does India have to squabble with Pakistan? If the US had the same problems with Canada as India does with pakistan, we would just crush them.
Imagine Canada with the capablity to turn every major city within a hundred miles of the border into radioactive dust. There's no doubt that, in a serious war between India and Pakistan, Pakistan would lose -- but the cost would be horrendous; it might very well be the bloodiest war in history.

To use an analogy with more recent historical precedent: why did we go to war with Iraq and not with North Korea? Because North Korea actually has WMD's ...

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by AlgUSF · 2003-06-02 06:01 · Score: 1

More like the fact that we had signed a cease fire with Iraq (From Gulf War v1.0). They broke it, therefore there was a resumption of hostilities.

If N. Korea invaded S. Korea, then we would definately take out the govt. in Pyongyang!

--

I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 06:18 · Score: 0

Why should we fuck with N. Korea? They're in China's back yard and thus China's problem.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 08:34 · Score: 0

>>They use Linux for everything
>WHAT ?
If you want to know the secret to prosperity in a poor country: look at the uSA 200 years ago.

When the uSA separated from Britain, everyone owned their personal land and house, was a farmer, was self sufficient from foreigners including Britain, and there was no taxation. A little afterwards, an unlawful government formed and created two political parties to distract people with and degrade the morality and peacefulness. This caused people to force laws on eachother, people became poor, people sold their houses and land to artificial entities mostly banks, and the people no longer were self sufficient and could only rent land and all kinds of sad things happened further...

India, let your people absolutly own their land.
India, recognize the liberty of the people.
People of India, do not work with foreigners, strive to help yourselves through charity.

When this happens, every foreigner would be envious of Inda and would want to move to India. What do you think is the reason uSA ios such a sad place? Yes, unlawful government causing phantom debts and unlawful obligations.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 08:52 · Score: 0
You are a typical arrogant Indian (or a troll).

If you are an Indian you have no right to say nonsense like this:

*they don't have an attitude/ego

Hypocrite.

* they really really really want to program(unlike lazy westerners)

Well, these 'lazy westerners' took the initiative to open up source and give back to the society. If Linus, RMS, ESR etc. were Indian the codes would never have seen the light of day and would not have benefitted India either for it would have been sold to the highest bidder --Microsoft or a similar big non-Indian coroporation.

If you have nothing else to do, do the following:
- Stop the rising fascist movement in India. Stop killing each other and write some open-source code instead (or go help clean up the streets if you don't have any skills).
- 50% below poverty line (above poverty line is defined as getting something to eat --bare survival). Try to do something about it.
- 60% illiterate (literacy is attained when one memorises how to draw his name and count money). Do something about it.
- India has one of the fastest growing HIV/AIDS problems in the world. Do something about it before you talk trash about others.
Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing Indians just for the sake of it, but because of what I have seen over the years. I am an Indian, so don't think that it is racism that drove me to write this. No I am not a self-hating Indian either, because I am doing all I can to change these problems --not making stupid claims or licking *m***c** butt.

If you are just another troll, you just underscored the arrogance of a typical Indian --although you defamed others in the process.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 09:15 · Score: 0

> # The quality is as good as western code

I've done a LOT of business with Indian companies over the last five years, and I'll have to debate this one. Some of the code produced in India is horrendous, and other code is quite good. It really depends, unfortunatly.

> # there are 1.3 billion people (making them second to China)

I thought it was 1 billion last census (2001?).. India's population was once (80's/early 90's) thought to overtake China's by 2025, but fortunatly for India, it's population growth is going down. Probably won't hit 1.3 billion until 2040 or so.

> # They use Linux for everything

Last time I was there, about about a year ago in Hydrabad in South India, this was definatly not the case. Who knows.. things might be different now, but I doubt it.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by fault0 · 2003-06-02 09:22 · Score: 1

> Talking about brains,the whole concept of competition is so ingrained into every muscle of the Average Indian Guy/Gal [AVG] that with zillions of examination, and the peer and parental pressure to succeed, somehow, even the AVG is sound on his fundamentals and concepts.

This might be true of well educated Indians (and certainly is true of most Asians in general..), the average Indian is still a farmer. Even if they went to school, it won't always be through high school. This is what describes men.. for women, it's even worse.

And also, the IT sector of India has pretty much only benefited parts of India. That is, only the states of Karnataka (where Bangalore is) and Andhra Pradesh (where Hydrabad is). Other cities have also benefitied, such as Mumbai, Delhi, and Calcutta, but their states generally have not.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by fault0 · 2003-06-02 09:26 · Score: 1

> People of India, do not work with foreigners, strive to help yourselves through charity.

That was actually somewhat like Gandhi's philosophy. The Indian government practiced something like this from 1950 to 1991 (many free market reforms happened that year..)

Unfortunatly, it got India nowhere. Instead, India's population ballooned from 350,000,000 to about 900,000,000, and upteem amounts of poverty was produced. Things have gotten a lot better within the last decade.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by fault0 · 2003-06-02 09:30 · Score: 1

> * Stop the rising fascist movement in India. Stop killing each other and write some open-source code instead (or go help clean up the streets if you don't have any skills).

Agreed.

> * 50% below poverty line (above poverty line is defined as getting something to eat --bare survival). Try to do something about it.

agreed. India has the largest amount of people under the poverty line in the world. More than the populations of all western countries (not put together, of course..)

> * 60% illiterate (literacy is attained when one memorises how to draw his name and count money). Do something about it.

I think it was something like 60-70% literacy levels now, lots of improvement. However, this is still way below western levels. Note that some Indian states, such as Kerela, have western (95%) literacy levels.

> * India has one of the fastest growing HIV/AIDS problems in the world. Do something about it before you talk trash about others.

Agreed.. :-(
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 09:39 · Score: 0

The author of this response obviously never heard of the "Whiskey Rebellion" (google for it).

Basically, the newly-formed Federal government (the one with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, ratified in 1791) agreed to take on the debts accumulated by the Continental Congress (the one that had the Articles of Confederation and won the war), and had to come up with some taxes to pay for the debts. One of the things they picked was an excise tax on whiskey. The settlers in western Pennsylvannia decided that this tax fell excessively hard on them, and revolted (i.e. they thought that an "unlawful government caused phantom debts and unlawful obligations"). George Washington led an army and crushed them.

People of India, ignore the respondant's author.
He does not know the early history or economics of the United States.
His statements are false, and lead to fallacious conclusions.
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by benjamindees · 2003-06-02 18:37 · Score: 1

There were people in the CIA who knew where the embassy was, but the people whose responsibility it was to identify targets for the bombing in question were using an old map.
Uhh, why weren't those the same people? And, really, an old map? I've seen the Saddam on Conan o'Brien come up with better excuses than that.

--
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Re:India will be the dominant force in computing by rifter · 2003-06-03 02:29 · Score: 1

Well, I hear you there. Nevertheless, the CIA is a big organization, and there are certainly some bumblers. Didn't you hear about the CIA director who was fired because he was taking classified documents home to work on them on his personal Win 9x desktop that was full of trojans and viruses from all the porn sites he was surfing? Of course that is exactly how Microsoft got cracked as well.

So yes, the CIA had better maps, but the group in charge of making the targets did not, and the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing. Pretty common thing in government, as is lying, so we may never know which is true. Still, if they bombed the CHinese Embassy on purpose, what was the purpose? If I could think of one, I would be more inclined to believe it was not an accident.
As it was, the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was a big embarrassment. Then again if there was someone in there the CIA wanted dead, we may never find out... :P

Naah, some new M$ virus by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 00:57 · Score: 0

It's left them incessently rebooting and scratching their balls - like all well-trained MCSE monkeys.

Notice though... by frodo+from+middle+ea · 2003-06-02 00:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

that the linux PCs are being sold in non-metro areas of the country.
Unlike in US, there is vast diff. between the metro cities and other small cities.
Majority of the enterprise level business are located in metro cities and I am not sure targetting SOHO business in non-metro cities is such a bright IDEA.
Simply because, in non-metro cities it is very easy to get pirated microsoft software and PCs are assembled from cheap parts from taiwan , rather than bought from PC vendors.

--
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".

Re:Notice though... by SN74S181 · 2003-06-02 01:11 · Score: 1

Are you implying that the Linux Sofware installed on those systems is like the color halftone 'photographs' that come for free in purchased picture frames?

Because that's likely the case. It certainly is in a lot of WalMart computers.

People are scared of linux because... by ahadley · 2003-06-02 00:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

The reason people don't use Linux, IMO, is not because it is harder to use or less logical in its layout (obviously i'm talking just about using KDE or the like), it is mainly because people have been using Windows since they were this tall.

If people started on Linux then Windows would seem bizare and hard to use at first, just as Linux is percieved by the windows generation now adays.

Just my 2 (euro) cents worth
Alex

Re:People are scared of linux because... by zakezuke · 2003-06-02 01:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is exactly what I get from my newphew. He's using macs at school, and he complains about OS9 all the time, and not those logical i can agree with you sorta things. It's primarly the "why did they put that over there" sorta deal. I guess i'm somewhat old and grew up in a market of aspiring and dying platforms.

It's somewhat ironic the fact that while I've never been a big mac fan my self, I have always respected its relative ease of use, yet i'm finding more often then not, the kids are complaining cause it's not *windows*(tm) which I find to be an unacceptable complaint.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:10 · Score: 0

No, windows would seem much harder to use.

I was never trained on windows, I used it (or tried to) before moving to Linux, but never figured it out. Linux is much easier to use. At work I still use windows (or try to), and waste a lot of time trying to figure out how to do things, but the UI is really confusing.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by doinky · 2003-06-02 01:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is a load of crap. People don't use linux because the "string together a bunch of small tools" approach so popular with Unix geeks is absolutely 180 degrees opposite from the paradigm most people are comfortable with in their real lives.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by Timesprout · 2003-06-02 01:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Did it ever occur that maybe a lot of those people who dont use Linux are happy with windows? Various distributions are available for free or for little cost but you dont see droves of users dumping windows and moving to Linux. Partly due to inertia as you say but also the majority of them are probably happy enough with what they have and see no compelling reason to change.

--
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Re:People are scared of linux because... by mt_nixnut · 2003-06-02 01:59 · Score: 1

I think this is true as well. But I think the reason most people are so used to windows is that it comes loaded on everything people don't and won't change the operating system on a working computer by and large.
That is why the only real adoption of linux you see is corporate where someone else (IT) does the dirty work or they use lindows from Walmart or something.
Only wierdos like me have been using it everyday since way before it was "ready".
FWIW
Re:People are scared of linux because... by BigBadBri · 2003-06-02 02:00 · Score: 1

Windows was bizzare and hard to use, when we'd previously been on CP/M and/or DOS on the desktop.
It took me about two years to feel comfortable with a mouse, and I still use the keyboard shortcuts where possible.

--
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
Re:People are scared of linux because... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 03:42 · Score: 0

And since most (all?) of the Windows users I know are running a version they stole fom work, the argument that Linux is cheaper has no meaning to them. If larger numbers of them were honest people who paid for things instead of stealing them, perhaps they would see price as a complling reason if nothing else.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by Lumpy · 2003-06-02 03:54 · Score: 1

Various distributions are available for free or for little cost but you dont see droves of users dumping windows and moving to Linux.

I'm sorry to completely roll you over with the clue train.... but .....

have you actually LOOKED at the general computer user population? they cant even install windows, most have trouble installing a USB device.

if you take 100 computer owners, 90 of them have zero clue and use "what the computer came with" they dont use it because they CANT INSTALL IT. they dont have the cognitive and technical abilities to do something as complex as an OS install, hell they can't do the very complex task of backing up files. and a subset of them cant operate the cd burner they bought.

Nice try spreading your FUD, but they aren't switching to linux because they cant... same as the reason why that windows XP sales are dismal... joe and jenny blow at home bought their computer 2 years ago and they just use it, hell these same people think that GATOR is a great free program for them to use along with their iWON tools that some nice website installed for them for free...

Do you understand now?

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by rifter · 2003-06-02 04:06 · Score: 1

It's somewhat ironic the fact that while I've never been a big mac fan my self, I have always respected its relative ease of use, yet i'm finding more often then not, the kids are complaining cause it's not *windows*(tm) which I find to be an unacceptable complaint.

These kids today! [grumble, grumble!]

Maybe you should point them to the poster whose sig said "When I was younger, I wrote games in basic on a 4.7mhz processor with 128k of memory and I was grateful." Actually I remmeber doing that myself because my high school used ancient computers for its programming classes and top-of-the-line 286's for its typing class. We used DOS 1.x and GWBASIC or BASICA. Ah, the good old days. And I really did walk 7 miles to school once and it was uphill both ways (but I did *not* make a habit of it!) :)
Re:People are scared of linux because... by NoOneInParticular · 2003-06-02 04:46 · Score: 1

So, you use a specialized fork for every meal? Does your dinner come with plates as well? When was the last time you washed, conditioned, combed and dried your hair with this single tool? When using public transport, do you insist that the train will take you to your place of work, or would you also take a bus and do a bit of walking? Where are the monolithic apps in real life?
Re:People are scared of linux because... by doinky · 2003-06-02 04:55 · Score: 1

The fork is a simple tool; the train is most definitely not. Nor is the TV; the stereo; the oven; the dishwasher; etc.
If every time I wanted to wash a slightly different set of dishes, I had to assemble a new dishwasher by combining a bunch of its elements; I'd be prepared for the state-of-the-art in linux.
Re:People are scared of linux because... by The+Bungi · 2003-06-02 05:56 · Score: 1

I have a bit of trouble understanding how, under your reasoning, the "general computer user population" will have a better time installing a USB device (or whatever) under Linux than under Windows?
Do you understand now?
Do you?
Re:People are scared of linux because... by maxpublic · 2003-06-02 06:06 · Score: 1

I recently taught computer courses to middle school students for three years. One of the first things I did at the outset was set up a Linux lab alongside the regular Windows lab.

For the first couple of weeks there were complaints because it wasn't like Windows; after that the complaints abated and then actually reversed (i.e., "do we *have* to use Windows today?"). Kids are remarkably adaptable, and learn quite quickly that there are some pretty cool things you can do with a Linux box that you can't do with a Windows box.

This really brought home to me why MS is so adamant about getting Windows into schools, especially early. If an alternative like Linux is available to all those young, flexible minds those kids might very well grow up Linux users rather than Windows users. Make 'em Windows users while they're young and keep them on Windows boxes until they graduate, and after ossification sets in moving them to a different platform will no doubt be more difficult.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Re:People are scared of linux because... by maxpublic · 2003-06-02 06:13 · Score: 1

if you take 100 computer owners, 90 of them have zero clue and use "what the computer came with" they dont use it because they CANT INSTALL IT.

While this is true of older generations (e.g., the ones whose VCRs are permanently set to '12:00' because they can't figure out how to change the time) this isn't the case with younger generations. Boomers are indeed, for the most part, clueless because the technology came along long after childhood; those who grew up with the technology are more likely to have some idea of what it's all about (they are, after all, the ones their Boomer parents rely on to actually install new software, fix computer problems, and so forth).

Generalizing between the two generations is rather pointless. Once those kids become Certified Consumers(TM) I'm willing to bet that the savviness of the buying public will start to improve.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?

but - by Debian+Troll+Returns · 2003-06-02 01:01 · Score: 1

Does anyone know if IBM is making Debian GNU/Linux available on these systems? As this previous post states, it would only be fitting that the only truly free Linux distribution be delivered pre-installed on these systems in such a poverty-stricken country.

debian - if it was more indian, it'd come with free naan bread and be stealing your white-ass IT jobs.

Re:but - by TLI_ · 2003-06-02 01:22 · Score: 0

What is wrong whit these Debian users? Maybe they all are trols...

Good nes for the 3rd World by PhysicsExpert · 2003-06-02 01:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

This could be excellent news for the proseperity of the third world in general and the redution in the digital divide in particular.

At present many third world countries such as Ethiopia, Rhodesia and India have serious problems in that computers are an unobtainable luxery that the ordinary man on the street cannot afford. If we can get free software into these countries then we can alleviate much of the hardware costs associated with running a computer and so make it easier for undeveloped societies to have access to modern technology (ok the hardware costs are still there but how much does a second hand computer cost these days?).

The impact of this cannot be underestimated. If you think how much computers have impacted on your work and how much time/money they save then you will realise why third world countries cannot compete on a level playing field with us Americans. If we can get Linux into these countries we can enable them to make money so they will not be a drain on the ric countries but will instead be able to make money and provide for themselves.

--
All that glitters has a high refractive index.

Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by SN74S181 · 2003-06-02 01:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Are you kidding? Putting Linux on systems will reduce 'much of the hardware costs'??

Did you notice the price mentioned in the article on these machines? $850 is well beyond the reaches of many, many people in the First World and completely beyond the reach of people in the Third World.
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by PsibrII · 2003-06-02 01:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Wow, I am totally floored. On slashdot when the subject of computers in India comes up theres usually 300 posts from liberals basically asking "what are thes filthy illiterate wogs gonna do with a computer when they don't have indoor plumbing, food or basic sanitation ?"

I guess the IT market being moved on a massive scale to India helped educate them as to what "illiterate peasants living in dirt shacks and eating grubs to stay alive" are capable of.

Gee, wonder if my sarcasm is showing yet.
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by Pranjal · 2003-06-02 03:27 · Score: 1

Dude..You are comparing Ethiopia with India? India is the 4th largest economy in the world. Think about that. It is growing at roughly 5.5-6.5% whereas the rest of the developed world is barely managing 1%.
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by singular_google_brai · 2003-06-02 04:36 · Score: 1

"Ethiopia, Rhodesia and India " good comparison ! u shud have tossed in Zaire and Moldova as well ...heck why not add "Djibouti" (try pronouncing that ...heh heh )
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by ashayh · 2003-06-02 04:53 · Score: 1

$850 is well beyond the reaches of many, many people in the First World and completely beyond the reach of people in the Third World.
Thats because of:
1>The moronic duty structure of the Indian Government that keeps prices high.(and higher for MNC's)
2>The ultra moronic distribution system in India which creates so many layers that makes each layer add their margin(obvious)and makes it IMPOSSIBLE to to get anything but the "popular" stuff at cheaper prices. Its a endless cycle. People dont buy "high-end" stuff coz its expensive courtesy of artificial prices of major dealers. Dealers claim high end stuff dosent sell coz people dont buy ! For eg the Asua A7N8X Dlx available for @140$ in the US (coming from China/Taiwan) is 250$ in India.(Same goes for ANYTHING else)
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by ashayh · 2003-06-02 04:59 · Score: 1

I also meant without the moronic situation, that PC would have been around 600$
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by fault0 · 2003-06-02 09:34 · Score: 1

> don't have indoor plumbing, food or basic sanitation"

Which is what most Indians still live under. The divide between the rich (i.e, IT workers who earn very little compared to Western equivs), and the poor (you've got to remember that the average Indian is still involved in farming.. this was true in western countries a long-ass time ago)
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 09:46 · Score: 0

Alright-- let's compare the US (which happens to be the country where I live and am a citizen of), China (which is where my wife is from), and India (where I was born):

All stats from 2001.. not all these numbers have been updated for 2002 yet :-(

United States GDP: $ 9,299 bln. Capita GDP: $ 34,108
China 4,800 bln. 3,850
India 1,805 bln. 1,803

Alright.. India, being the forth largest economy, doesn't mean much at all. It still has a very large amount of very poor people. There are many people highly educated (like me-- B.S. from IIT Kanpur, M.S. at Brown University, currently doing Ph.d there as well), but even more people quite poor. The U.S., with a quarter of India's population, has nearly four times India's GDP. My point is: India has a huge amount to catch up to western countries still.
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by RdsArts · 2003-06-02 11:56 · Score: 1

It's not the cost of high-end hardware, but the lower entry point needed for much free software.

100$ for cheap pentium, a copy of Slack, Debian, or FreeBSD, Dillo or Links, and Sylpheed is perfectly fine for a internet-ready PC, and they have now opened themselves up to the vast stores of information and communication on the internet. And if they're in a country that has laws against free speech, a proxy with such a system would work wonders

And you might even be able to go cheaper. Maybe even some of the 486s I see for 5$ on eBay could run such a set up. (I'm actually attempting to install a desktop system based on OpenBSD on a 486 with 16megs of memory just to see how viable that would be).

"Old" hardware? Maybe. Useful hardware and software? Definately.

Perhaps the biggest win for free software is that it makes free speech so inexpensive.

But just because it can't run Doom 3 or UT2k3 does not mean that cheap hardware and software that runs fine on it would not close the "digital divide."
Re:Good nes for the 3rd World by antiMStroll · 2003-06-02 13:52 · Score: 1

My work machine is a 1.7 P4, the gaming machine a 1333 Thunderbird, but the Gentoo P2 366 I use for 90% of my computer runs just find. The systems North American businesses throw out coupled with Linux could revolutionize Third World technology.

128mb?? by Alpha_Nerd · 2003-06-02 01:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

I wish companies would stop selling systems with 128mb of RAM... 256 is bare minimum nowadays. People wouldn't notice the difference between that 2.4ghz P4 and a $50 AMD Athlon XP 1700+...

Of course, I'm sure they do this because they can get away with it... The average consumer probably thinks a CPU with a big number next to it is more important.

Re:128mb?? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:33 · Score: 0

I guess Linux can no longer be called "less" bloated than Windows. Sure you can boot it off a floppy, but the DEFAULT install of Redhat takes more disk space and memory than Windows XP. So much for Linux being the skinny super model. Now that she's married (to the enterprise), she gained a ton of weight. Typical.
Re:128mb?? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:58 · Score: 0

Yeah, but the DEFAULT install of WinXP doesn't include a full featured office suite and a graphics manipulation program that is steadily approaching Photoshop in quality.
Re:128mb?? by katre · 2003-06-02 02:32 · Score: 2, Funny

People wouldn't notice the difference between that 2.4ghz P4 and a $50 AMD Athlon XP 1700+

Until their pants catch on fire, anyways.
Re:128mb?? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:40 · Score: 1, Insightful

1999: omg windows is so bloated lolorz it includes all sorts of stuff that should be seperate!! haha ie is integrated in it!!!

2003: lunix is bettar cause it comes with lots of extra bloated things like office and graphics software!! it si bettar than teh windows!!!
Re:128mb?? by JonToycrafter · 2003-06-02 07:46 · Score: 1

I hope this gets modded up as funny AND insightful.

That said, in fairness to RH, it's pretty darn easy to install it such that it doesn't have QUITE so much bloat, in a way that's impossible to do with XP without a favorable Court of Appeals ruling.
Re:128mb?? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 10:22 · Score: 0

1999: OMG! Yuo haev a 10 BG harddrive! Yuo l33t dood with teh money falling out of yuo bottoms!

2003: OMG! Yuo machine si so LAEM. It olny has teh 10 BG of teh spases! Yuo == fag0t
Re:128mb?? by sanity_slipping · 2003-06-02 16:33 · Score: 1

My friend recently purchased a new computer (in pieces, so that he assembled it from the components) and he purchased on 128 megabytes of RAM (despite my natterings). He still insists that he doesn't need any more and that he almost never uses very much of it.

He has a 1.4 Ghz Athlon. Perhaps 256 mb would be necessary for a 2.53 Ghz Pentium 4, but unless you get a higher-end system it is not strictly necessary.

--
I can feel my sanity, beyond my reach and slipping...
Re:128mb?? by illumina+us · 2003-06-08 04:56 · Score: 1

Or feel really light from buying that P4 seeing as they have no money left in their wallet.

--
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."

You can do better... by botzi · 2003-06-02 01:10 · Score: 1

...At present many third world countries such as Ethiopia, Rhodesia and India have serious problems in that computers are an unobtainable luxery that the ordinary man on the street cannot afford. If we can get free software into these countries..

You don't need to be enlightened, that in many of those third world countries the actual problems is, food, electricity, canalisation, religious conflicts etc.... And *very*, *very*, *very*,(do you want me to name them????) few people give a damn about how we'll be able to *help* them with the GNU idea.... Better, remember that food may also be an "unobtainable luxery"...

--
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!

Re:You can do better... by PsibrII · 2003-06-02 01:19 · Score: 1

Yes, poor poor illiterate wogs, they just don't have Jesus, Minivans, and Fast food like all of us highly enlightened americans. Luckily though, they have shitloads of IT jobs. Maybe they'll be able to afford a few lightbulbs here and there due to that.
Re:You can do better... by botzi · 2003-06-02 01:36 · Score: 1

...like all of us highly enlightened americans.
There's never all when someone refer to humans , and this time there isn't even us...
Luckily though, they have shitloads of IT jobs.
Fair enough.... I've recently considered an offer from Ethiopian OS Dev. company which was certain to issue the next "Big Thing"... Unfortunately, I refused cause the wage of 1.5$ a day just didn't seem enough at the time(I know, I'm a greedy bastard, forgive me, I'll change...), even after the CEO reassured me that with those money I'll live like a king, I was still unable to accept.....

--
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
Re:You can do better... by Gareman · 2003-06-02 05:18 · Score: 1

Been there. I was offered $150/month for a IT support position in Nepal. It came with servants. My calculations showed it was equivalant to making $250,000/year in the US.
The problem was that I wouldn't be able to save enough money to visit my family each year or to travel in the region. Oh yeah, and my monthly student loan payments were 250% of my salary.

What happens when IBM gets into the linux picture by zakezuke · 2003-06-02 01:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

Perhaps we'll actually start seeing some OEM level hardware support, or if nothing else at least some specifications so we can make our own drivers for the latest GO-GO gadget device.

While I'm by no means a fan of IBM, their whole microchannel experence has left a sour taste in my mouth, I must admit they are a big ass company, and when their business is supporting linux for large nations like India I see an increase in demand for drivers for cheeper hardware. Wether or not then will be release under some form of OSS license remains to be seen, but IBM at the very least has the mussle, they have the contacts, and they have the ability to get the job done.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.

Which distro? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:11 · Score: 0

and why did they pick that distro
does IBM post for example the technical reasons
behind their linux distro choice(s)

linux distros, can be very different!

It is getting closer. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

Like all technological things, serious Linux aoption starts in Asia (Dell started selling linux systems in Asia a few days ago according to some article), and now it has reached India. Soon it will reach Europe, and around 2013 the USA may also start moving out of the stone age, and onto an OS that works.

Re:It is getting closer. by linuxelf · 2003-06-02 01:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah, just like we jumped on that metric system thing.

--
- "That's just the kind of fuzzy-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten."
Re:It is getting closer. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 05:23 · Score: 0

Dell started selling Linux systems in the USA in 1999

US $850? by dafoomie · 2003-06-02 01:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Isn't 850 a little pricey for the average guy in India? Especially considering I can walk down to Wal-Mart and get one for $200.

Re:US $850? by Alan+Partridge · 2003-06-02 01:33 · Score: 1

That's rather what I thought - surely ANY Indian can already get a pretty good laptop for that kind of dough and send off for a few linux distros on CD if he doesn't have bandwidth enough for a download. This IBM product sounds like a a ham-fisted attempt at cornering some big fat government deals to me - that $850 price tag probably means $350 when you buy in units of 1000.

--
That was classic intercourse!
Re:US $850? by xzap · 2003-06-02 04:45 · Score: 1

I have never seen a branded laptop that costed less than 1700 dollars in India. Assembled machines (non branded) start at around 500 dollars if you want a half decent machine. Branded desktops START at around 800 dollars.
Re:US $850? by Alan+Partridge · 2003-06-02 07:20 · Score: 1

is there a special, hefty computer tax then?

--
That was classic intercourse!
Re:US $850? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 16:08 · Score: 0

Ask the coders who lost their jobs to Indians. I'm sure they can afford it...

Rhodesia? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:15 · Score: 0

Where the hell have you been these past 23 years? ...you're not that jerk Ian Smith, are you? ;-)

Yes indeed by simong · 2003-06-02 01:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Who does say Linux on the desktop is dead? As far as I can see its takeup is just beginning, and as long as Microsoft persevere with an overpriced, overpowering 'standard', more organisations will consider it throughout the world.

Linux Jobs in India by dxnxax · 2003-06-02 01:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Mojolin India (http://in.mojolin.com) has some 35 linux jobs in India posted.

Re:Linux Jobs in India by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:51 · Score: 0

From the site: "Currently, there are 35 jobs (0 today) and 1798 resumes (3 today) live on the system."

Now thats _all_ the jobs on there site, presumably the site is linux jobs only?.. point is .. 1798 resumes for just 35 jobs. Unless I'm missing something .. damn .. the job market sucks there.

IBM is NOT the first to do this by kh_naba · 2003-06-02 01:31 · Score: 1

We bought a couple of compaq computer (model 7500) that comes with Mandrake Linux. That was some 6 months ago, so IBM can't the be first to do it.

Cheers
-Naba

Nascent markets by anpe · 2003-06-02 01:31 · Score: 1

Well maybe in the developed markets where people are using windows since last 10 years and are used to it. But in nascent markets it maynot be the case.
In those so-called nascent markets, you can find any copy of any pirated software, so everyone having a computer can purchase the newest software and use it.
Even these markets are full of windows users, don't even think about a heaven of Linux awaiting geeks.

Re:Nascent markets by weierstrass · 2003-06-02 02:04 · Score: 1

we need to crack down hard on the pirates and protect microsoft's intellectual property rights! as soon as the third world can't use bootleg copies of windows, they'll switch to linux.

--
my password really is 'stinkypants'

The desktop discussion again... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 01:36 · Score: 1, Interesting

Would people please stop caring who "ready for the desktop" Linux is compared to windows?

If windows is the measure for "readyness" I hope Linux will never grow up!

People who actually KNOW something about Linux desktop also KNOW that Linux desktop is goin into a completely different direction than windows desktop. Comparing both is like saying: "Hey, my Gameboy is much better to handle than your Playstation, because it has less buttons and a smaller display! F* your Playstation!"

You mean this analogy is too harsh? NO. Because I really ask myself why Microsoft doesn't open source/out source their PR department to those windows addic ts who're desperate to tell everyone who doesn't care that less features for much money is better than anything Linux desktop has to offer.

Redundancy by weierstrass · 2003-06-02 01:41 · Score: 1

a) too good to be true, b) there has to be a catch, or c) you get what you pay for is it just me, or do these three expressions mean (in this context) exactly the same thing?

--
my password really is 'stinkypants'

Old News by lkaos · 2003-06-02 01:51 · Score: 2, Informative

It's actually a whole new series of Business PCs called ThinkCentre. Yes, they are available here in the states (and I actually remember seeing a figure ~$600 for the Linux models). The M50 is the only model thus far to be running Linux. Here's the blurb from the press release:

"IBM also today introduced the ThinkCentre M50, with enhanced support for Red Hat and SuSE Linux. The M50 provides stability and manageability for the enterprise and is available with three improved mechanical designs."

This press release is on the front of IBM's main page on the very bottom under Press Releases. This is from about 2-3 weeks ago (surprised it took /. so long to catch on).

--
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));

Re:Old News by I8TheWorm · 2003-06-02 02:18 · Score: 1

Add to that the mighty price tag of US $850, and this will be another failing on IBM's part. The purchasing power parity in India is $2,540 ( CIA WorldFactBook). Wal-Mart's offering of Linux based PC's would be much more attractive. IBM has a history of misunderstanding the market as a whole though.

--
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Re:Old News by MsGeek · 2003-06-02 03:18 · Score: 1

Read the specs...the ThinkCentre is basically a headless Thinkpad in a desktop case. This actually could be a nice little machine, provided they don't rely on "Intel Extreme Graphics" which are neither extreme nor very graphic. (Slow and leaden is a better description.)

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.

At least by SatanicPuppy · 2003-06-02 01:52 · Score: 3, Funny

If I call Dell tech support about a Linux system, the person on the other end will now know what I'm talking about.

--
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.

Another Bonus by Cardinal+Biggles · 2003-06-02 01:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

Of course, selling Linux desktops will help vendors compete with the low-cost boxen with pirated Windows you can get in developing countries. The cost of a Windows license is more significant there.

But there's another advantage: if Linux-on-the-desktop seriously takes off, it would make the PC vendors more independent of Intel. After all, who cares what instruction set their CPU is running? The only reason everyone still uses x86 is because that's the only platform that'll run Windows.

Practical story? by toolz · 2003-06-02 02:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here is a more practical story on Linux in India

Puleeeze!

That story is based on a reporter attending a vendor event that as specifically run as a hype-builder for the aforesaid PC product. The reporter clearly has no clue what is really happenning in India - maybe she should try attending a real OpenSource event - the next one comes along this December.

Events like the one reported on are really no representation of the real state of Linux/OpenSource in India. The organisers are essentially riding the wave, but are *completely* out of touch with the realities of OpenSource in India. I know - I was at a meeting of that organising committee where I was told "it is time something is done to promote OSS in India" - this was less than a month after LB/2002 that had thousands of participants, was sponsored by the very same people (HP and IBM) and was totally endorsed by the Indian Government!

If you want to know more about Linux and OpenSource in India, then events like the one described in that article (and the article itself) are certainly not good resources.

--
You aren't remembered for doing what is expected of you

What, was he on fire? by A_Non_Moose · 2003-06-02 02:15 · Score: 1

(taken out of context, with typo)

IBM CEO recently visited India generating news and smoke ...

.

--
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)

Re:BUSH = RECESSION by croftj · 2003-06-02 02:22 · Score: 0, Troll

Much better we can't get a job and work! I must admit the thought of being forced to work, moving out from under my bridge and eating real food is just down right appaling. I enjoy my fine cuisine of whatever garbage I can find from the "rich folks" and civil servants as well as any rats and pigeons (MMMmmm boy Squab!) that stray to close. GOD FORBID OUR NATION EVER MAKES ME GIVE UP THE GOOD LIFE!

The nerve of our goverment giving ALL TAXPAYERS AN EVEN BREAK on thier taxes! How dare they! Next thing you know we'll be able to speek our minds openly w/o fear!

--
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it

Re:Thinkcentre by flokemon · 2003-06-02 02:27 · Score: 1

"enhanced support for Red Hat and SuSE Linux" most probably means that IBM will do their best to get those workstations certified by Red Hat and SuSE.

As far as I can see, all Thinkcentre models ship with WinXP (Home or Pro) with a few shipping with a PC-DOS license. Anyhow, unless they really do release a Linux preload model as stated in the India Times article, I really doubt that IBM will support anything but the preload. Install a RH on your Intellistation, it will probably be certified by Red Hat, and you'll have to turn to them for support.

As for Linux preloads, some Thinkpads used to have them a couple of years, and therefore IBM would support the Caldera preload (that must have been before they bought SCO :), although I can imagine than in most cases what you heard was "Do a recovery"!

Compaq did it long ago by ^avenger · 2003-06-02 02:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

Compaq has been selling Linux Desktops for sometime now, In India. Funny, it never made news ;)

That is the irony of the whole thing. Whenever IBM even mentions the name Linux, it is worthy of news, unlike other MNCs.

Re:Compaq did it long ago by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 19:50 · Score: 0

Compaq has been selling Linux Desktops for sometime now, In India. Funny, it never made news ;)
That is the irony of the whole thing. Whenever IBM even mentions the name Linux, it is worthy of news, unlike other MNCs.

Indeed. Fuck HP/Compaq, whatever the hell they are now paq.

Rhodesia by meadowsp · 2003-06-02 02:28 · Score: 1

Was that North or South Rhodesia?

Re:Rhodesia by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:41 · Score: 0

Thank you!

I'm so glad that someone else realises what a plonker Mr "PhysicExpert" is!

FYI, dude - Rhodesia hasn't existed for 23 years!

People stay with Windows because ... by tjwhaynes · 2003-06-02 02:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

Did it ever occur that maybe a lot of those people who dont use Linux are happy with windows? Various distributions are available for free or for little cost but you dont see droves of users dumping windows and moving to Linux. Partly due to inertia as you say but also the majority of them are probably happy enough with what they have and see no compelling reason to change.

Did it occur to you that a vast army of computer users really don't know what they are using? Most of the circles I move in are populated with people who are used to multiple operating systems but occasionally I step back into the normal populace to help out a neighbour and I realise just how wide the gap is.

Take, for instance, someone I helped fix their system after it was upgraded by another friend. The term 'operating system' is not one that the average computer user really understands. Therefore 'Windows is an operating system' is something that probably half the computer users out there don't have any serious comprehension of. This means that not only do a large number of people use Windows because they have it, they are unlikely to change it because they really don't know it 'exists' as a product. When they get a new computer, it comes preinstalled and they never really have to worry about it. I'm reminded of a survey where a significant chunk of people in the street thought that 'Pentium' was a chip maker.

People rant a lot about how getting Linux preinstalled on new computers is the absolutely critical step in getting people to use Linux. From the ivory towers of the tech elite, it's way too easy to think that because people have a choice of OSs, they will exercise or even understand that choice. When you think of a store selling computers, people generally want a list of utilities (email, web, office suite, photo galleries, etc) - how that is acheived is irrelevant to them as long as it works. Much as people are now of the opinion that a virus checked is an essential item on any system (does anyone know of one for AIX :-) ).

Cheers,

Toby Haynes

--
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.

Re:People stay with Windows because ... by rifter · 2003-06-02 04:14 · Score: 1

Therefore 'Windows is an operating system' is something that probably half the computer users out there don't have any serious comprehension of. This means that not only do a large number of people use Windows because they have it, they are unlikely to change it because they really don't know it 'exists' as a product. When they get a new computer, it comes preinstalled and they never really have to worry about it.

Windows is the computer. The Computer is your Friend. Therefore Windows is your friend. ;)
Re:People stay with Windows because ... by grimani · 2003-06-02 06:15 · Score: 1

Sure, but ignorance is bliss, and bliss to most is worth paying for.

In short, people love Windows since they don't know any better. And they'll continue to love and pay for Windows.

What makes you think getting Linux preinstalled will cause the clueless to magically become informed? They still won't realize why Linux is better, but it's different enough to confuse them.

The solution isn't to shove Linux down the throats of those who can't effectively use it. The solution is to make Linux more usable.
Re:People stay with Windows because ... by nathanh · 2003-06-02 12:48 · Score: 1

The solution isn't to shove Linux down the throats of those who can't effectively use it. The solution is to make Linux more usable.

So Windows 3.1 beat MacOS 6 because Windows was more usable? Get a clue. Windows beat MacOS because of many factors including price, preloads, applications, and hardware support.
Usability is only one tiny aspect of the problem.
Re:People stay with Windows because ... by grimani · 2003-06-03 20:18 · Score: 1

So...lets see.

If Linux has all the win32 apps...is it not more usable for tasks?

If Linux supports all hardware, including those nasty winmodems, is it not more usable?
Re:People stay with Windows because ... by nathanh · 2003-06-03 23:31 · Score: 1

So...lets see.
If Linux has all the win32 apps...is it not more usable for tasks?
If Linux supports all hardware, including those nasty winmodems, is it not more usable?

Huh? What point are you trying to make? Are you trying to defend your silly statement by saying that all benefits are simply alternate forms of usability? I hope you're smarter than that. Or is English your second language?

Dell Also by nurb432 · 2003-06-02 02:33 · Score: 1

3 years ago i bought a couple of servers /w/ Redhat.. and they were offering desktops at the time...

Donno if they still are..

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:BUSH = RECESSION by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:34 · Score: 0

you, sir, are a 'tard of the highest order.

all taxpayers are not getting an even break -- the rich get a bigger break. the rich should pay more to support the poor, that's the idea of income taxation. otherwise you might as well just do away with income tax altogether and tax spending.

oh, and if you truly believe you can speak your mind without fear then i suggest you go absolutely anywhere and say something even remotely related to committing an act of terrorism.

you're just another brainwashed american idiot.

Something a little more sinister perhaps... by JohnnyCannuk · 2003-06-02 02:46 · Score: 1, Interesting

Ok let's see....this story is actually a few months old.

Compaq tried this but they don't have the size and clout of "Big Blue"....

Hmmm IBM, Linux on the desktop....

Hmmm....IBM is introducing Linux on the desktop, the Linux vs Windoze wet dream, in a market with the potential for 1.5 Billion new customers and suddenly SCO, with the aid of M$, starts suing IBM for copyright and/or patent infringement and/or contract breach (depending on which day of the week it is) on Linux source code, spreading FUD and trying to chill the acceptance of Linux everywhere.

Hmmm.... combine this with the large IT labour market in India that many firms are "taking advantage of" and suddenly Windoze doesn't look so good as a future enterprise solution.

Perhaps my tinfoil hat is on crooked, but doesn't all of this, timed with the SCO lawsuit and M$ purchasing SCO licensing seem a little to coincidental?

Just a thought on a Monday morning...(going to get some more coffee now)

--
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha

Re:Something a little more sinister perhaps... by mobileskimo · 2003-06-02 03:42 · Score: 1

Business is rarely coincidence. Big Business is never coincidence.

Iron is the history of which Big Blue and The Borg are made of.

--
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
Re:Something a little more sinister perhaps... by benjamindees · 2003-06-02 18:30 · Score: 1

No, because if you're going to make the SCO-MS connection, you have to make it in the context of both the subject of the lawsuit and the only market MS really cares about nowadays: the huge-multi-processor-server market.
Intel and MS have been holding hands and petting for a while now, and with Linus' stated preference for the lower-cost Opteron, Linux represents real competition for Intel and MS in the only market that MS doesn't effectively own. The SCO lawsuit is about pushing IBM/Linux out of the large server market to make room for MS.
I could go on about eyeball-shaped corporate logos and satanic rituals but you'd obviously just become more confused.

--
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"

Just like the metric system... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 02:46 · Score: 1

Without doing any real research, I get the feeling that non-US countries are more apt to use Linux rather than Windows. India, Germany, Brazil, China, etc., seem to have some fairly strong Linux leanings.

Super cynicism says Microsoft has the US government behind them... in the US.

A part of me sees Windows becoming the English measurement system: used (almost) exclusively by the US, while the rest of the world uses Linux and the Metric system.

Oh wouldn't that be wonderful! Microsoft being *forced* to maintain cross-platform (read: OSS) compatibility. That's all I ask, for a lack of domination by the Redmond regime.

Re:What happens when IBM gets into the linux pictu by Anti-HanzoSan · 2003-06-02 02:47 · Score: 1

While I'm by no means a fan of IBM, their whole microchannel experence has left a sour taste in my mouth

How many years ago was that?! Get over it, already!

Sheesh!

Which desktops? by Decaff · 2003-06-02 02:49 · Score: 1

Linux is growing on the desktop, slowly and steadily,
but all desktops are not the same. Where Linux really
works well on the desktop is in enterprise and other commercial
environments, where users can log-on and find a pre-installed
system with, for example, the latest KDE desktop, Evolution
and Open Office. The common complaint that Linux on the desktop
isn't user friendly is way out of date - I have migrated
Windows NT/Office users to KDE/OpenOffice and there has
had to be only minor training - less than moving users
from NT to XP!

The home/consumer desktop is a different matter, but with more
work (and games support!) Linux can succeed there too.

Desktops?!!! by Thud457 · 2003-06-02 02:53 · Score: 1

You're still thinking in terms of desktops?!!!

I thought that as we all saw on TV, we should have all been using VR interfaces back in 1996!

Desktops? How quaint.
What about the kitchen metaphore?
Or better yet, the bathroom user interface?
What about countertops?
Or stovetops?

What ever happened to VRML?!! I've got this mungo-ass 3D accellemerator card that came with my PC, but my operating system utilizes exactly 0% of it. Where are the direct-to-brain elecronical interfaces invented by William Gibson? Why has the state of the art been polishing the same turd since 1978 ?!!!

--

the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Heh? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 03:31 · Score: 0

I don't think either of those countries really realizes the power a nuclear weapon

R .. i .. g .. h .. t!

One of those countries has had nukes since 1975 and has been researching and using nuclear power for a while now.

There is only one country in the world that has been blatant enough to actually use a nuke. The rest of the world only uses it for pressure tactics during discussions.

And someone has a history of going to war with people/countries that don't concern them.

</sarcasm>

Re:Heh? by Greyfox · 2003-06-02 07:29 · Score: 1

You fogot the "so far." We went from "oh-we-have-nukes! Sweetness and Light! Dancing through fields of flowers" to "Boy it sure does suck living in a nuclear mexican stand-off with our biggest enemy." And we were about this > close to destroying every man, woman and child on the planet at least once. And compared to how India and Pakistan seem to feel toward each other, we were just mildly unfriendly toward the Russians. 'Course I grew up in places the Russians would have hit first, so I might remember it differently than your average American civillian.

--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Re:Heh? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 12:47 · Score: 0

>One of those countries has had nukes since 1975 and has been researching and using nuclear power for a while now.

Of course the country that DID have the nuclear power since 1975 dosent bother me as the one that DIDNT have it since 1975

></sarcasm>
hmmm... looks like you are you are trying to show off your XML skills as well.

Hmmm by Glonoinha · 2003-06-02 03:45 · Score: 1

>Looks like you don't really realize the power of nucs. Years will more likely be centuries or millenia.

How long after 1945 was it before Hiroshima and Nagasaki were places that people could comfortably live? I don't know, it is a genuine question.

>and a nuclear exchange between them would mess up economies in the entire region for years.

I'm not going to comment, but it was worth recognizing.

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer

India: An Open Source Producer? by Joseph+Vigneau · 2003-06-02 03:47 · Score: 1

Now that open source-based systems are being spread to one of the world's most populous nations, many of whom have years of experience building software, is there much open source development happening there?

Do the big universities (paricularly IIT) encourage participation or leadership of OSS projects?

Re:India: An Open Source Producer? by The+Cydonian · 2003-06-02 04:37 · Score: 1

Do the big universities (paricularly IIT) encourage participation or leadership of OSS projects?

A possible yes. As I mentioned on this site before, was down to an IT-only university in India last year. Felt weird looking at a whole lab with folks typing stuff in Emacs using the Devnagri script.
And then I made the mistake of actually saying that Linux has a steep learning curve. The professor there held me captive in his room for 1.5 hours, and over endless cups of hot chai, explained to me carefully why Linux is, and always will be, better than Windows.

--
More than mere navel gazing.
Re:India: An Open Source Producer? by acerbix · 2003-06-02 05:31 · Score: 1

IITs, just like MIT or any other *huge* institution, doesn't run on an organization wide mandate to espouse any one technology over the other... the goal is to provide students with a "well rounded education" in all aspects of (computer) engineering.

Having said that, individual "teacher"s (from professors, all the way down to TA/RAs) very often do have opinions, and do exert those opinions vociferously: the result is that students (especially who interact with such professors on a faculty-advisor or thesis-advisor level) do get oriented towards a certain technology philosophy. This "orientation" can be on a philosophical level (Open Source as opposed to Closed Source), specifically at an OS level (Linux-*BSD-Windows) or evend down to nuances (How else can I explain my strange predeliction for using keyboard shortcuts for almost everything, and barely using my mouse?).

However I did not encounter any kind of thought policing: if you agreed with the professor, great. If you did not, you probably would not be working with that particular professor, but with someone more oriented to your views.

Open source does make enormous sense of a country like India. However, the way to leverage Open Source is definitely not by thought-policing. Especially in places like the IITs, which should be (and mostly are) institutions inculcating and encouraging independent and creative thinking. The way to encourage OSS (or any such technology philosophies for that matter) is through intelligent debate, not an institutional mandate.
Re:India: An Open Source Producer? by Joseph+Vigneau · 2003-06-02 06:16 · Score: 1

IITs, just like MIT or any other *huge* institution, doesn't run on an organization wide mandate to espouse any one technology over the other... the goal is to provide students with a "well rounded education" in all aspects of (computer) engineering.

While this is most likely true, that really doesn't answer my question, that of the conumption versus the production of open source software. MIT, for example, has been the home of many high-profile open source projects over the years, from students, as well as faculty. A large part of the open source "philosophy" is that of collaboration, or a give-and-take of ideas/code. I am not aware of any open source project whose principal contributors are based in India (though I know RMS spends a lot of time there :^). If IIT has no mandate for or against open source, and I'm assuming that many of their students use it in the course of their studies, why does there not seem to be any signifigant open source production activity?

In other news... by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · 2003-06-02 03:48 · Score: 1

IBM bought Manhattan for some beads, and the Indians beat the ChiSox 5-4 in 10 innings.

Oh, wrong Indians...sorry.

and hopefully by zogger · 2003-06-02 03:50 · Score: 1

The heinous and lame government of robert mugabe won't last for 23 more days with the planned total nation wide strike. Hopefully he and his goons will be split out of the nation or perhaps hanging from trees soon. He and his "party" single handedly took a nation that was a net exporter and could feed itself and was on it's way to joining the modern world all the way back to stone age tribalism. Rhodesia/zimbabwe is a prime example of what happens when the political-problem baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. One extreme to a much worse extreme, zero got any 'better'. Contrast it with nearby mozambique, similar political situation at the similar time,they sorted out that racism nonsense, but didn't destroy their economy in the process. I mean, mugabe is even embarrasing to other black african leaders, he's not even just a murdering thieving racist goon, he's a plain old stupid bozo as well. He gives a bad name to the despotic dictator guild!

%^)

Re:and hopefully by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 05:21 · Score: 0

But not an embarassment to former black african leaders? Or at least not much more of an embarassment than?
Re:and hopefully by zogger · 2003-06-02 08:55 · Score: 1

no idea. Maybe he goes over to idi amins pad in saudi arabia for drinks and "barbecue". "Hey,Robert, let's have some missionaries and prisoners over for lunch" "good idea,Idi, I'll bring the 'tenderiser'".

There's a guy who updates what's going down in SA and Zimbabwe over to rense.com site once in awhile, he has some good insights, IMO, name of Jan Laprecht. If you search around that site you can find the articles and links to past audio archives. Interesting stuff. There's a woman who does that as well, but her name escapes me at this point.

Just 5 minutes ago I was reading google news latest string of updates there about the strike that has started, your typical beatings, tea gas, a little shooting, etc. We'll see how it goes. Read one last night, people at what's left of the grocery stores are shelling out big boxes of phony zim bongo bucks for a pittance of what food is left. Bogus knowing they used to export huge quantities of food as little as two-three years ago. Their idea of "affirmative action" and "land redistribution" should be a clueski to the forced collectivists. Get rid of dictators, sure, have honest government where ALL the people have some sort of say, sure, but DON'T go nutjob fanatic and wipe out the productive members of your society and economy, that's just serious lame thinking.

It's unfortunate, like with slobovich in serbia, or lately saddam, (or maybe a nation close to anyone most likely, pick one, it probably won't matter) that the police (and usually the military) are always the DEAD LAST groups in dictatorship nation x whatever, to "notice" they are "serving" dictators, and that doing so is a "bad idea" and their nations have turned into cesspools, and usually are swimming in blood as well. So it goes with humans, paychecks, priorities, and governments.

Engrish Resson by Glonoinha · 2003-06-02 03:56 · Score: 1

* Do not end a sentence with a preposition
* labor
* because
* Both, obviously - comma splice.
* don't
* some time
* people
* India
* Chinese
* intelligence
* But I think the ability to articulate well in English
* West
* Until then
* a zillion rags to riches, ... or ... zillions of rags to riches
* they will make the effort to
* on other software (software is the plural of software.)
* This explains the

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer

Re:Engrish Resson by TheNumberSix · 2003-06-02 04:22 · Score: 1

India follows the rules for English as it is practiced in the UK. "Labour" is a perfectly valid word, IIRC.

--
Never confuse feeling with thinking.
Re:Engrish Resson by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 05:25 · Score: 0

Not to mention that he got that "L/R" thing wrong too. Its japanese that have trouble with that. Not indians.

I wish people who try to be clever are really clever.
Re:Engrish Resson by divvy · 2003-06-02 14:12 · Score: 1

I guess I need to write 'people' instead of 'ppl' as well! But the comment was posted in haste, trying to stop the bigoted view of India that people seem to promote. Moreover, I am sorry for the typos and grammatical glitches that crept into my comment. I guess I now officially suffer from 'foot in mouth' disease!
I am Indian, who has drunk the milk of British English(!). Hence, my use of "labour" is valid.I just hope you have tolerance for English in its myriad forms and not just view American English as the 'Official Correct Version' of English.

There is a need for a recognition that has long eluded the Indian intellects. Agreed, there are a few worms who seem to have no knowledge of Software apart from Microsoft products. But people like Azeem Premji, Narayanamurthy and Sabeer Bhatia couldnt have succeeded like they have without the help of their Indian counterparts who helped them build their Software Empires.

I would also like to point out, that the amount of competition and variety that is found in India can only be rivalled by USA. Agreed, the political system is extremely flawed. But I guess USA may very well learn from the use of Voting Machines for elections which make much more sense than peering thro a small hole in a paper to see whether the vote is valid or not!

But this is drifting away from topic, I really want to clear up the muck that everyone seems to throw at India without any real data. Everyone seems to use the much abused words 'poverty' and 'illiteracy'. The number of people living below the poverty line is significant. But the bright side has always been the success that is guranteed for the intelligent and hard working, especially, in the field of Information Technology.
Re:Engrish Resson by Glonoinha · 2003-06-03 03:52 · Score: 1

Bro, I was just hasslin' you. Prolly a cheap shot hoping for a +1 Funny, or at least looking to keep the discussion lighthearted.

Honestly, if you want to make a genuine difference in my opinion (and it wouldn't surprise me if you honestly don't care what Glonoinha thinks, nor would I care because we are still both ACs, just ACs posting under our /. accounts) see what you can do about treating women like people, equals ... not property. Allow women the fundamental human rights to :

1. Be born. How many babies are killed each year for the past few decades simply because they were female.
2. Pick their destiny. WTF is up with pre-arranged marriages in the 21st century. I am posting this on a 2GHz laptop over a wireless connection to a 1.544Mb/s Internet connection and in India some farmer is trading seven sheep for the ability to pick his twelve year old daughter's future husband.
3. Material possessions. Allow women the wealth of their labors.
4. Pick their mate based on their feelings, without regard to that Caste system. Oh yea, and WTF is up with that Caste system anyways?
5. Eat healthy foods. If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. That includes cows. Want a good example of something God doesn't want you to eat? Palm trees, rocks, diamonds, car tires.

You make the difference in the life of one other person and it won't affect me one way or the other. But it will affect you and that other person deeply.

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer

Duh? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 04:01 · Score: 1, Interesting

Isn't 850 a little pricey for the average guy in India?

Yeah, it probably is. So I have to wonder what International Business Machine's target market is. Searching, searching .. oh, this is interesting... according to this obscure reference (the first sentence of the article) that I found on this internet..

NEW DELHI: IBM India on Monday announced the launch of its Linux desktop in India targeting the small and medium businesses, home offices in the non-metro cities.

.. they are planning to sell to businesses. Even here in USA (where there actually is probably a Wal-Mart nearby), I have heard of situations where businesses paid more than $200 for a PC.

I wonder if those types of customers have more money than typical Wal-Mart shoppers. I'll have to check into this.. maybe it means I can make more money as a programmer, doing custom work at $100 per hour by offering my services to business, instead of hanging out near my local Wal-Mart, asking people to hire me.

IBM just might be on to something. Going where the money is -- what a concept!

Today Mahatma made his Linux background white... by WwWonka · 2003-06-02 04:08 · Score: 1

....tomorrow one billion Indians will be afraid to use the sacred Pentium 386.

Because "they're used to it" by Ilan+Volow · 2003-06-02 04:24 · Score: 1

If a KDE or GNOME program running on linux has a dialog where there are radio buttons laid out in a confusing or ambiguous way using system-oriented jargon, and a counterpart Windows/MacOS program does not have this bad design, is the reason why people are afraid of using the linux *really* because "they are used to Windows/MacOS"?

Perhaps the problem is not that the target market for linux on the desktop is "used to windows" but that the current linux developer and user community are used to bad, inconsistent, and generally confusing design and are all to eager to yell "quit whining about what you get for free." And when no one wants to use their stuff, they try to pin the blame on Windows' desktop dominance.

I don't think the problem will get better until the traditionalist unix culture that has been so incredulous and apathetic about usability issues has been removed from all efforts to put linux on the desktop.

The problem isn't that some people don't want to learn; the problem is that some people haven't been taught a lesson.

--
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!

Why not build their own? by drunkenbatman · 2003-06-02 05:37 · Score: 1

I've read about IBM's $1billion investment in Linux stuff over the last few years (or perhaps that is an on-going thing) but the focus of that money seemed to be very much based on server technologies... helping Linux scale on their machines, perhaps as a replacement for AIX at some point, etc. This all makes sense to me, as IBM makes a ton of their money now on integration services, and services as a whole.

But it's fairly obvious that redhat isn't cutting it, gnome isn't cutting it, KDE isn't cutting it, xfree isn't cutting it. I'm not knocking the projects- their work is valid. But in my experience in using them, as well as OSX, XP and NT they have a long way to go. A long, long way... and a lot of the steps seemed to need to be drastic architectural changes in how they simply work for the end user... hence a lot of dev time.

Since IBM sells services, they don't seem to have a lot of incentive to put money in MS's coffers or for really wanting their end users to be using an OS. The $100 the client spends on the OS is simply money IBM can't charge for, and gives MS a ton of leverage IBM might prefer them not to have... or in the case of servers, they'd prefer Sun not to have.

So... if IBM feels its worth it to spend $1billion on Linux in the high end, I would have to think just spending half of that on making one kick-ass open source distro specifically in the vein of OSX would be worth their while, wouldn't it?

Hell, don't even spend half of that... or a 3rd. No new next-gen OS... the graphical capabilities of OS2/Warp would be just fine. Just make it good, easy to install, easy to use, fast, and have a uniform feeling... and open source. Let all the other projects cannibalize it to their hearts content. Let XP and OSX spend all the money getting the next gen UI's... and let those who really want the premium cost pay for them.

Have any companies with large projects made any overtures for something like this? I'd have to imagine it's in IBM's best interests... they can charge what they do now for integrating 1000 MS desktops, but without the MS tax it might double the revenue (or allow them to lower prices)... not withstanding all the other goodness that'd come with it.

The Perfect Competition between Linux and Windows by duck_prime · 2003-06-02 05:55 · Score: 1

Well maybe in the developed markets where people are using windows since last 10 years and are used to it. But in nascent markets it maynot be the case.
In those so-called nascent markets, you can find any copy of any pirated software, so everyone having a computer can purchase the newest software and use it.

For better or for worse, all software is essentially free-as-in-pirated in the third world. It is in China, India, Russia, etc that the real battle between Windows and Linux will take place, on equal footing.

The Linux crowd may come away covered in glory, or humiliated by an ease-of-use loss to Windows. I can't wait to see what happens!

Expensive... by grimani · 2003-06-02 06:10 · Score: 1

Who's gonna pay $850 for a Linux desktop when they can get a Windows one for $399 from Dell?

Don't forget that we're talking about India, where textbooks go for ~$5 each, 95% off what they cost here.

When per capita income is $2540, $850 is A LOT of money.

Virus checker for AIX by dodobh · 2003-06-02 06:15 · Score: 1

http://clamav.elektrapro.com/
Defend your AIX system from Windows viruses! :P

--
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.

word processing for gods sake! by aztechClanIII · 2003-06-02 06:20 · Score: 1

Well, I'm a completely devoted linux desktop user (on my Dell Inspiron 8200). It works great! The only complaint I have is the fact that there are not a single *good* word processor available. All the one's I've tried (OpenOffice, StarOffice, abiword etc) completely and utterly blow chunks when trying to view any kind of complex business document (including tables and charts/weird formatting). This is a necessity @ work, as I have to be able to read these things, and print them nicely. I had to use VMware, install Windows 2000 and Microsoft Word just for this purpose. Everything else works great in linux. ~

Re:word processing for gods sake! by zwaffle · 2003-06-02 09:36 · Score: 1

Yeah, we've been using Linux at work for development(web, java). When more admin/management ppl joined our startup, of course, they were using laptop running windows. Then powerpoint, excel, doc documents started being passed around. We would always get into issues trying to work on them in Linux... hopefully we had to start using VMWare to run windows in linux so we could test our code on multiple platform, so we end up using VMWare/windows to work on office documents.

Re:BUSH = RECESSION by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 07:06 · Score: 0

all taxpayers are not getting an even break -- the rich get a bigger break. the rich should pay more to support the poor, that's the idea of income taxation. otherwise you might as well just do away with income tax altogether and tax spending.

Yes, this is partly true the rich also pay a lote more taxes, therefor get more back in return. How is this unfair? Doing away with income tax would be a great thing, the government has no business knowing what I make and the money I earn doesn't belong to them anyway (the democrats just thinks it does).

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax." -- Albert Einstein

oh, and if you truly believe you can speak your mind without fear then i suggest you go absolutely anywhere and say something even remotely related to committing an act of terrorism.

So you can't plan mass murder in a public place, go shoot yourself in the head and do us all a favor, and if you can't own a gun in that great socialist country that you live in then step in front of the nearest bus! You know you can't beat your woman in America either, what a bunch of infidels.

you're just another brainwashed american idiot. You are just another typical liberal elitest.

Myths abt linux....? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 07:41 · Score: 0

Look at the Hyderabad(a major city in India) chapter of the Indian linux user's group(Ilug)'s site

http://ilug-hyd.org.in/myths.html

http://ilug-hyd.org.in/more_myths.html

cool!

What about the apps? by zwaffle · 2003-06-02 09:26 · Score: 1

Personally the biggest problem with Linux is the apps. I still prefer to pay $500 to use Photoshop than to use the Gimp for free. Ok, that's very pricey for a third world country.
Also, I've been hoping for linux gaming to catch up (I got RTCW and Quake3 on Linux), but it never seems to take off (other than for the servers)... it's a shame, I guess Linux users are too used to get things for free!

technical reason by RevSmiley · 2003-06-02 10:35 · Score: 1

IBM pays Bill Gates $0 for Linux installed on their Linux computers.

--
As you can see I don't care about my karma.

RedHat by RevSmiley · 2003-06-02 10:39 · Score: 1

Only limp dicks try and run RedHat as a desktop Linux. SuSE, Mandrake and Debian are already on desktops all over the world. RedHat decided on using GNOME for the desktop how fugly can you get.
RedHat should stick with servers.

--
As you can see I don't care about my karma.

Yes by RevSmiley · 2003-06-02 10:42 · Score: 1

Yes free software would be great but food and drugs would be much better.

--
As you can see I don't care about my karma.

Debian by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 10:49 · Score: 0

Fanboy cock suckers. Debian easts shit and dies.

Sure.. by RevSmiley · 2003-06-02 11:12 · Score: 1

Last time I looked NORAD was a joint venture of Canada and the US. If North Korea launched an attack on South Korea there would be hell to pay.
Any Military attack on Canada or US proper would be considered an attack on either. You would be at war with both. This is not the same thing as the ethnic religous conflict with India and Pakistan. Last time I looked we were not shelling across our borders either.

--
As you can see I don't care about my karma.

Re:BUSH = RECESSION by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 11:55 · Score: 0

"the rich get a bigger break. the rich should pay more to support the poor, that's the idea of income taxation. otherwise you might as well just do away with income tax altogether and tax spending."

The US income tax is basied on just this kind of socialist bull shit.

The U.S. needs to go to taxing sales of products and services. This way all pay their fair share. The only untaxable items should be food and education. All Imports should pay a tarrif for entry that is fixed and equal for all products.
Get rid of regressive income taxation.

Outsourcing is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · 2003-06-02 12:29 · Score: 0

The problem isnt as much that the jobs are going over seas... the bigger problem is that there are stupid people writing software for free. Why would a company pay its developers to write software, if some fool writes it as opensource and give it away for free! This is the bigger problem facing the software developers today. Make your choice; be the mucisians of the software industry and starve or stop working for free and giving away your source code free.

hmmm... by zakezuke · 2003-06-02 12:38 · Score: 1

Well, IBM has demonstrated in the past a desire to use closed standards, in the hopes of getting royalties from all that use them. Microchannel is the best example. Makes a fair amount of sence from a business perspective.

Hopefuly they have learned their lesson, but it's important that OSS supporters remember who IBM is and what their agenda is, to make a profit.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.

Re:fr1st cliche by antiMStroll · 2003-06-02 13:42 · Score: 1

ease-of-use: both common desktop environments mimic Windows closely, moreso than the differences between 95 and XP. installation is often easier than XP

compatability: with what?

inertia: bingo. Microsoft's licensing and DRM initiatives are working on that :)

Re:Great move by cheekyboy · 2003-06-02 14:17 · Score: 1

Then surely it opens the market for others to undercut and import a truck load lteraly from china, and sell direct in a major city. Get some $200 machines and sell for $300 in a shop. Or is there a cartel there in PCs.?

--
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.

Linux + India = Karma ?? by dorfsmay · 2003-06-02 18:29 · Score: 1

Linux in India.... That's got to be good karma !!

Largest Mobile market... by anandcp · 2003-06-02 18:57 · Score: 0

$187.26 may be the average. However no one disputes the fact that India has the LARGEST middle-class working group in the world, larger than the entire population of USA. That is why our mobile-phone market IS the largest in the world. No wonder AT&T, BT, Verizon are making a beeline to India. Do you know India has a 3G mobile phone service with 1 million connections capable of onstream video and phone-banking? Hmmm, the word india still conjures up images of poverty, snake charmers, beggars just like US depicts Al Capone to us.

--
-------- Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate -- the bombs always hit the ground.

Outsourcing to China is impossible! by anandcp · 2003-06-02 19:00 · Score: 0

China has a conditioned population that is Great in manufacturing where you do what you are told, precisely. IT requires brains, and thinking power and creativity, not Borg drones who are super-efficient. China will be the manufacturing hub of the World. India will be the IT hub of the world.

--
-------- Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate -- the bombs always hit the ground.

Interesting. by poppycat · 2003-06-03 00:57 · Score: 1

I found this article interesting considering that just a few days ago I was reading another article on slashdot where the president of India was having misgivings about so many people being dependent on the windows O/S. Perhaps this is some very good timing on the part of IBM.

--
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it.

Hmm Bangalore is non-metro by gnalle · 2003-06-03 01:16 · Score: 1

I think that you are generalizing here. Bangalore is the biggest IT-centrum of India, and there is no metro (But as far as I know they have plans of building one)

PS: I am writing this from Bangalore

Slashdot Mirror

IBM Launches Linux Desktop in India

285 comments