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fvwm Turns Ten
Some Old Dude writes "fvwm, F* Virtual Window Manager, is celebrating its 10th birthday in a few days. This is the window manager I used when cutting my Linux teeth back in the last millennium, and the one I still use today (after trying many newer ones). If it's been a while since you've seen what fvwm can do, check out its features and screenshots."
I was surprised to find twm when I installed X11 on OS X.
They released a new version today QUOTE: http://freshmeat.net/projects/fvwm/ The changes in this release are as follows: All single letter variables are deprecated, and multiletter variables are provided. The NoWarp menu position hint option works with root menus too. WindowListFunc is executed within a window context, so a prefix "WindowId $0" is no longer needed in its definition, and it is advised to remove it from user configs. FvwmEvent executes all window related events within a window context, so PassId is not needed anymore, and all prefixes "WindowId $0" may be removed from user event handlers.
Idiot.
Unless all of the choices suck.
Life in Orange County
What does F* stand for?
10 years old and faster than lightening. Gotta love it.
Nostalgically twm would be more cool. fvwm, fvwm2, fvwm95, icewm, sawfish are the 'other' window managers. The big ones are kde and gnome and friends.
So tonight I will celebrate by switching from icewm to fvwm for a day.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I forgot to buy it a gift. I'm so screwed.
and a catchy name too. It really rolls right off of your tongue about like a sawblade. ;)
Ummmm, by creating a product that doesn't crash at a drop of a hat?
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
fvwm and tvwm are two great window managers espiecally when you're cutting edge gnome/kde/fluxbox/etc... refuses to work, and you just have to get something done graphicly. I know i've fallen back on them more then once. That coupled with the fact that they're so damn small, keeps them on my my small hard drive.
F* yes! Happy F*'ing birthday! (The BSD devel made me do it).
Really, thanks and congrats to the developers of this great WM: this was my first Linux non-CLI, and it remains my favorite.
If a man's character is to be abused there's nobody like a relative to do the business. -Thackeray, William
After trying out kde, gnome and xfce, I went back to fvwm and couldn't be happer with my current setup. The only thing on my desktop when I login is a single xterm. I can launch anything I need from there, but I also spent some time to customize my root menu (right-click on desktop) to give me quick access to the apps and scripts I use the most (including xterm -- I forgot to put that in their the first time around... didn't notice it until I accidently closed my one and only xterm -- oops!)
REAL men use the console. For those forced to use those silly window gadgets by their PHBs, there's NAWM: Not a Window Manager. Non-reparenting, non-eye candy, pure window management functionality and nothing more. Check it out.
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
my hypercard stack "Escape From The Dark Cassel [sic]" turned 12 today... can we celebrate that too?
Here's some food for ya !
How to explain FVWM to a troll ?
In the good old days, when THE distribution was something you downloaded as floppy images, when a 386 DX with 16 megs was considered a nice machine (with your file server being a 486/33), when you had a Minix FS and hex-edited your boot device on your boot floppy, in those old days you did not want a *huge* window manager.
But after downloading the slackware X series of floppy disks, you wanted SOME kind of WM.
And yes, it was cosidered a bonus to open an xterm without the system starting to swap.
Can your stomach take more, little troll ?
--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu
<AOL>Me too</AOL^>
"Mouse? Oh, you mean the thing I use to figure out what xterm I want to type in."
(Cripes, even the FVWM screenshots on the almost-slashdotted page look almost too glitzy for my tastes ;-)
I currently have a graduate student who is working part-time on a rewrite of fvwm in CWEB, the literate programming language. It's helped to reveal several bugs and algorithmic inefficiencies in fvwm that would have otherwise remained hidden.
As a followup project, he and a group of fellow graduate students plan to implement the X11 protocol in a similar manner.
I seem to remember that X didn't work too well on machines without a maths co-processor. You had better have had a 80387 in your 386DX or else X would grind to a halt everytime it wanted to scale fonts.
They don't look professional like motif or like www.fresco.org .
To answer a question my smartass roommate asked... yes I do have a nice background "wallpaper" image... I'm not so hardcore that I use a solid color or worse yet, greyweave as my root image.
(Bonus points to those that have mucked around with X11 enough to know what greyweave is).
or tab completion, or inline editing, etc... Real men use SysV R3 /bin/sh on an old Wyse 60. For a real trip, try the Mashey Shell (predates the Bourne Shell).
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Blazing fast and highly programmable. The only time I need to touch the mouse in fvwm is to click a link in Mozilla. It's too bad RedHat DROPPED it from its CD distribution. Grrrr...
I seem to remember something called 'Windows 3.1' that put fvwm to shame.... even today
DOS prompt drive letters to make the techies feel at home.
I thought the newbies were the problem.
Why bother duplicating XP? Why would Linux need to become just like Windows? If that's what you want, why NOT use Windows? You're advocating this to make Linux competitive with Windows? WTF?
This is like a "Happy friggin' birthday" greeting. "It's your birthday, here's the Slashdot effect for your birthday." And they can't effectively return the gift if they don't like it.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
The author might have forgot what his acronym stands for but some people remember the original announcement.
There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't
I'll wager you never had fourteen shipwrecked mariners tossing about in it, or never been used to plug up a leak on a ship.
Mr. Gates, the time you spend hating people that are cooler than you...
Nope. You aren't remembering Win3.1. I don't know what you ARE remembering, but it's not that.
Maybe you're thinking of the C64's GUI? I always thought that was pretty slick. If it had ever been put on high-end hardware like a 286, with a nice little dos like CPM86 underneath, it would have really been something.
Or, maybe you're thinking of NextStep, on the Next boxes? I kind of liked that better than fvwm, though it was simply a matter of taste.
Nope, you aren't remembering Win3.1.
...If only Apple would open source their user interface... Microsoft would be history. (Esp. if the Mac version of Office ran with it)
Because it has to be very similiar to get people onto it.
Some of us don't want to use MS products because of our principles.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Fvwm1 is great! It doesn't chew up precious pixels like the so-call modern integrated GUIs. I've been running fvwm on FreeBSD for a decade now with no reason to switch.
Lets stack FVWM up with its contemporary, Windows 3.0 and then see who runs home crying.
FVWM had the 3D look of Motif without the awkwardness of OpenLook and because it was just an X Window Manager it avoided the OS integration of MS Windows.
Newer GUIs like WindowsXP and Aqua, GNOME, KDE, etc. move beyond the window manager concept to the entire visual user experience.
Scenario: Company is considering switching to Linux desktops, to save money on new installations. This costs money on existing installations, due to re-installing and re-training.
Although all windowing environments bear some similarities, the closer to Windows one is, the less retraining is required, and the cheaper it is.
You may be able to pick up any interface, but consider people you've helped. How many of them have written every step down?
Use whatever desktop you want. Don't worry too much if somebody prefers something else.
I'm scared of numbers that can't be written as a fraction. It's an irrational fear.
Twm probably has some nostalgia value amongst people who rolled their own X11 back in the day, but fvwm used to be the default for most Linux systems, so it's got plenty of nostalgia value of its own. Plus, it's still going strong; twm is all-but-dead, while fvwm still has a large community of enthusiastic users and developers. Including me. I keep trying out all these newer WMs, and they always seem to be missing some essential feature that I've come to depend on over the years, and/or they're massive, bloated monstrosities that don't do noticably more than my old workhorse.
It loads fasts, never leaves RAM, and stops in a blink, and keyboard short-cuts are easy to implement. Anything else is bloat.
Anything you can do I can do faster.
The pager in FVWM is the epitome of how a pager should be.
FVWM was the first WM I ever used (on SunOS back in the early 90's). I absolutely hated the pager, but I didn't know how to turn it off. After about 2 weeks of it, I can't live without it now. All of my boxes, OSX (VirtualDesktop), Windows(JSPager), Linux(crappy KDE pager), they all have one now. But, none of them even come close to fvwm's.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
(rant)
Why on earth did RedHat take FVWM out of its distrubution? Like many long time Linux users, FVWM has been my window manager for years. It's small, fast, flexible, and infinitely configurable - with three CDs of space for RedHat 9, you'd think they'd be able to find a couple of megs for FVWM. Even their "switchdesk" utility still wants FVWM as an option.
Taking FVWM out of the standard distribution is just plain dumb, not to mention insulting to many Linux users. How many years was FVWM the default window manager for RedHat? I've been using FVWM for years on RedHat, but now I have to change to a more "modern" window manager because they can't spare 3 megs on their distribution CDs? Grrr.
(/rant)
"Good people drink good beer"
Fvwm was nice back then. But even if you want a small, light-weight window manager, there are probably better choices than fvwm these days: Oroborus, Blackbox, IceWM, Ion, to name just a few. Their code tends to be cleaner and their configuration and code tends to be more modular.
Finally. After 10 years of being written by illiterates, it's about time.
Well, I use FVWM. It is my WM of choice, and I like it a lot. It is small, it is (very) fast, it is scriptable, it does not look nor act like a Windows knock-off (though you can probably make it, both, of course). And I use it on fast machines, mind you, it's not that I couln't use KDE. It's just that I like plain X + FVWM better.
And it does have some cute features. I have impressed a couple of friends with FVWM's "stroke" thing, starting apps and controlling audio volume and stuff, by drawing shapes on the screen with the mouse---though I must say that I don't really have much use for that, save for showing off.
I wonder why is that so many of you regard mass adoption as something so desirable that justifies turning a first-class Unix system (oops, hope no SCO spies are reading this) into a bad Windows clone. Or even a good one. I just can't see the point: if a user needs something Windows-like, well, there is Windows already.
If I were to say what to do, I'd have people stop wasting time cloning Windows, and use it to make Linux a better Unix. And as for GUIs, I'd like to see a good GUI in the Unix style. Like, say, apps with hybrid command line/graphic interfaces. Graphic pipelines, perhaps? Or if you have to copy it, something in the NextStep/OSX style (last time I checked, GNUStep was nowhere near usable). I don't know.
But then again, neither me nor you nor anyone can make Linux developers do this or that; everybody is free to choose what to do with our Linux-hacking time. Fortunately.
I started with fvwm years ago and still use it because I haven't found anything else that easily supports a scrollable viewport: I don't like to flip between seperate desktops, I like one big one that I scroll around on using the keyboard or mouse.
I wish I could find a good graphical configuration utility for it that uses straight gtk, though (not tcl).
Oh, come on! If you will not say 'mathematics', just say 'math'. ;)
Brits: what can one do?
To this day, I can't part with that file - don't even know if it still works in the latest version. I haven't used fvwm in 2 years, but I know that file is in my $HOME on every linux box I work on... just in case.
nostalgia...
Sixteen megs on your 386 DX ?? We were happy if we had 4 MB on our 386 SXes.
Then, while we were waiting for a slackware distribution to be created, we downloaded SLS at 2400 BPs and were happy if it came with a 0.99pl12 kernel.
Those of us unlucky enough to be caught with a Diamond video card hard to manually tweak the clock generation chip while those with ET4000s *might* get accelerated bitblit.
Those were the days when rain(6) was the best visualization to go along with head seek chatter.
Yeah! Even FPU would not be AFU! ;)
'maths' co-processor. Puh-lease.
Ah, we love you, ally.
And now, some tea.
two empty 3x3 desktops (except for a sticky xconsole). all important applications have keybindings. my idea of a minimal desktop. i just hate to have to take my hands off the keyboard to reach for the mouse.
I don't really care what other people think. Ever since I bagain using Linux i've used fvwm. First because it was the standard in SuSE, then because it was the best. You get the freedom you want, and the flexibility you want, it only takes a few hours of learning...
y'all rmrmeber that? It actually didi a very good job of imitiating windows. It came as the default wm on RH 5.2 back in the day. UI was like LLinux has a start button. wow. And netscape. it's jsut like windows, except different. I rebooted into win95 to play a game later and didn't use linux for another year or so, but it was fy forst view of linux.
Bravo! A fine troll!
You say that like the majority of WMs for X11 *are* good looking.
I wonder what the world will be like when Gnome or KDE turn ten! Right now it's impossible to predict what things will be like in one year, let alone ten!
:)
640 Gb is enough for anyone, eh?
But after every WM I've used, I'll still always go back to Fluxbox... I'm using the developer release, and while it can crash from time to time, it's proving to be shaping up extremely nicely.
I am a filthy pirate.
Here's the one I'm using right now: .fvwm2rc file .png image in Opera 6.12, and press the "F11" key for fullscreen. On a 14" monitor, it will appear as if you are actually running fvwm, with this file, and you can say "Hey, I formatted your HDD, put Mandrake on it!" Only thing, none of the buttons work, so the joke comes to a quick end for the observant.
.fvwm2rc on the internet, I have to say that this is not my latest .fvwm2rc, as working on these is somewhat of a hobby and I'm always trying to improve it.
.fvwm2rc for a user account:
my
Here is a screenshot:
screenshot for above fvwm2rc
Here's a neat trick: Put that
Like most folks that post their
Here is a
click here
That one gives an entirely different-looking setup, designed for those who do not have root access. As you can see, I like what fvwm can do, and try to learn more about it when I can. Examples posted on the internet help a lot.
fvwm runs on me machine right here
Both of them offer several different styles/appearances and can be programmed to look most any other way. The KDE and GNOME technologies don't really constrain how they look. At a minimum, you should clarify whether you are criticizing the default look/feel on some particular installation or whether it is that you don't like any of the alternatives that ship with some distribution. In any case, my KDE desktop looks great but it doesn't use any of the installation defaults.
Hey, dickhead. Yeah, I'm talking to you, dickhead. The word "troll" does not mean "person with which you disagree." Got it? Fucker.
By definition a DX has a built in math coprocessor. The SX series was a DX chip with the built in CoProcessor disabled so Intel could sell a math coprocessor add on chip.
I think the point is that everyone agrees that Linux beats Windows on the reliability factor, but an OS is not defined by its uptime for a large amount of the people that use computers. Installing a program should require two clicks to the user. No RPM's, no Makefiles, no gcc. If it is needed, make it invisible to the user. Changing out hardware should be as easy as it is with Windows. The majority of people dont use the command line on Windows, you should be able to do the same with Linux. All of this command line junk that is left from Unix of the 60's should at least be made transparent for the majority of tasks. Linux is behind the curve for use on a home PC, it should at least catch up before trying to out-do Windows.
Nice try though... Of course, prof. Knuth doesn't take graduate students anymore, and if he did, they wouldn't be rewriting fvwm...
Damn, why couldn't you be French? That way I could taunt you about your English way of speaking english.
Now I can't because we like the Brits.
I don't like the look of Gnome and KDE . Does anyone else share my thoughts ?
Yes. But then, I'm a Windowmaker freak, and Not To Be Trusted.
--saint
fvwm is a copy of Motif (mwm?). Motif is licenced copy of Windows 3.0.
Lets compare fvwm95 with Windows 95. MY EYES! they're burning. make it stop!
I don't agree. I like the Unix desktop at its most Unixy - clean, efficient andminimal. No need to waste pixels catering for an idiot when this desktop is the interface for a computer professional. But if I wanted to waste some pixels, and I have in the past, I'd waste them on stuff that looks cool to my aesthetic, not what looks reassuring to some marketer trying to soothe the average user.
If you want to understand the "real" window managers, like fvwm, Afterstep, etc., realize three things:
I don't like CDE very much, but CDE is clean and technical-looking in a way that Windows isn't. Almost everyone would happily go from CDE to KDE or Gnome, but I'd feel some loss of Unix flavor.
(I've ignored the fact that fvwm works with Gnome - you could have the fvwm coolness and the Gnome user-friendliness, I guess.)
I'm currently running fluxbox at work and AfterStep at home. I like a lot of what I see in the fvwm release - it seems the good window managers are converging and adopting the best features.
I know there will always be a small group that thinks as I do, but I'm afraid we're not communicating very well. Tons of newcomers are pouring into Linux, and most of them have only seen Microsoft Windows. Therefore they're inclined to view the desktop through a Microsoft lens, even as they criticize Microsoft.
I don't like Microsoft software. I find it disgusting from concept to execution, from GUI aesthetics to file formats. I don't want anything on my machines to look like that.
Doh! You're right. My memory is doing funny things. It was the 286 and before that didn't have a FPU builtin. Now I think about it, it was a friend who trouble with X on his 486SX.
1)It was good enough 8 years ago.
.fwm*rc file
2)I've got nothing better to do than fuck with my
3)My desktop doesn't look enought like ass yet.
4)I've only got 12M of memory.
5)What the hell X only holds up my xterms, and mozilla.
IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
Funny how the 1987 GUI on the Apple IIgs put most Unix GUIs to shame until a couple years ago.
Very funny! However, I don't think that most techies feel comfortable with drive letters and Windows look & feel.
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
marginally useful? what else could you possibly
need. you can move, resize, iconify, and uniconfy
windows
-proud twm user for at least 15 years (i think)
I put in a restart function in my root window function list. Also a "talk" function.
With these two, anything goes.
- High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
I find VTWM suits my needs better.
;-)
If you're going to go lean and mean, why not go all the way?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
80386 DX was a full 32 bit chip
80386 SX was a 386 DX with 24 bit memory bus and maybe a 16 bit data bus
For faster time to market, the 80386DX could work with an 80287 *or* 80387 math-co. There never was a 386 with built in FPU.
When Intel introduced the 486, everything changed:
80486DX had a built in FPU
80486SX had a built in FPU but was disabled (maybe due to poor QA rating)
80487 was an 80486DX with alternate pinout to fit in the "487" slot. Upon insertion, the 80486SX is disabled
80486SL was an 80486SX with some power saving features and lower clock speeds
80486SLC was a cyrix chip that had 16 bit data bus, 24 bit memory addresses, and no math co. It performed somewhat better than a 386SX but was cheap and drew little power. It was popular for notebook computers.
80486DX2 was the first clock doubling CPU
80486DX50 was a rare 50 MHz cpu with no clock doubling
80486DX2-66 / DX2-50 were clock doubling CPUs
80486DX4 were clock trippling CPUs
Then there were a bunch of pentia.
Partly right, but you are thinking of a 486DX. A 386DX has a 32 bit external bus rather than 16 bit bus on the 386SX. The co-processor was a seperate device until the 486DX came along.
A latent existence
This was thirteen years ago, mind you. I was 3l337 just because I was _using_ the RT, nevermind there wasn't jack shit installed on it except CADAM
Clickety Click
And by "real men use SysV R3 /bin/sh on an old Wyse 60" I assume that you mean "I've never had my fingers in a girl's pussy before."
I am also a user of FVWM, but I have heard of Enlightenment which is now calling itself a "desktop shell". I don't know much more than that but it sounds like something that would interest you. It is definitely very configurable and pretty.
Just last night I finally dpkg --purged it from my system, for the first time in all these years. Of course that failed: who would ever have tested it? I had to clean up by hand.
You've got to be fucking joking. Win3.1 being better than Unix+X11+FVWM? We -are- talking WINDOW MANAGERS, and win31 has -shit- for a WM. You got a bit of functionality if you ran the Program Manager/File Manager bits on top of win3.1 (as was standard), but -nothing- is stopping you from running equivalent shit under FVWM.
Win3.1 sucked ass. deal.
These days I have a salary and can afford to have nice pretty computers:
In my primary work area I have a powerbook (With OSX) and a Gentoo Linux PC (Strictly KDE not Gnome). Looking at those screenshots reminds me how much the Linux community has advanced since those 'hobbyist' days. I think we owe it to ourselves to have desktops that are both functional AND pretty.
Anyway Gentoo Linux includes FVWM even though that distro is less than 2 years old!
Fvwm is what Microsoft THINK all UNIX(y) computers still look like!
That was the 486 series. A 386DX had no co-pro onboard. The 386SX was a 386 with a 16-bit external data bus.
...wearing a skin-tight topless leather jumpsuit, with cutaway buttocks and transparent crotch panel.
I need multiple virtual screens. Other than that, I probably could get most of the functionality I want out of twm with a well-written .twmrc. Looking at the man page, there are a lot of useful functions that aren't available unless you customize. For example, I use the fvwm equivalent of TwmWindows frequently; I didn't realize TwmWindows existed because you can't get to it in the default configuration.
I would defintely have to agree with you. The interesting thing that not many people touch on is that while everyone always complains how Bill Gates is always trying to conquer everything, the Linux community is just as bad. Many people are obsessed with taking away windows marketshare, when there is absolutely no reason for this. If I want to play games, I boot to windows, if I want to work, I go on Linux, theres room enough for both.
Very funny! However, I don't think that most techies feel comfortable with drive letters and Windows look & feel.
/mnt/floppy /dev/hda. Personaly I don't really give that much of a shit to really care all that much, this is a small point.
/... in order to stop confusing people.
Afterall, wasn't MS-DOS designed to emulate the look an feel of a terminal talking to a mainframe?
I guess this is honestly a preference... but it's really a small point wether or not your drives are prepresented as a "a: b: c:" a 1> 2> 3> (spartados by ICD), df0: dh0: [amiga] or
a larger point would be for microsoft to actually switch to the freaking
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
It would at least allow you to run the NEC Multisync II at ALMOST 800x600...
(And yes, you are right, it started with SLS. And backups on a floppy streamer... And a VLB graphics card... And alt.os.linux... And kernel patches via Usenet...) *sigh*
... I just did an "emerge --deep fvwm" and now I can reminisce and enjoy a nice new fvwm install. I started out on Red Hat 5.0 but it's been a while since I've seen fvwm.
So ugly...can't...concentrate.
hehe twm has saved my butt sooo many times. I'm a Debian guy, and I tend to install it for my friends if they ask, so I don't bother installing a window manager until I can get X working to my satisfaction. Once I have hacked XF86Config enough to get a screen for their horrible laptop video chipsets and undocumented lcd screens, then I fire up twm and load xvidtune to tweak the config. Then when I get it optimized I install some other window manager, usually Gnome is popular with linux n00bs. Personally, I run Enlightenment-16 with the "Hand of God" theme... its almost exactly like twm except they kind of extended it a little.
Clickety Click
omfg i want 2 have like 10,000 of u'r babys!!!!!!
I preferred Autolisp, though...
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
Why would we compare anything to Windows 3.0? This isn't a history lesson people. Any window manager for *current use* should be compared to the state of the art *today*. fvwm sucks out loud. Bury it, its starting to smell.
It was a system installed with FVWM that got my attention on Linux. the gritty unclean nature of the it just made me love it, because it was so diffrent and uglier then a Windows and MAC interface.
KDE and Gnome are great and get all the glory but if you want to screw with someone new to Linux FVWM is the way to go.
Well, you got me there, but still, just because many X11 WMs are poster children for bad taste and color blindness, doesn't mean fvwm should be kept on life support. Pull the plug already and let this brain damaged embarrassment to the *nix community die.
You lil bitchy trolls have ruined a fine interview by Fyodor, and now you're bitching on every other post.
Wankers.
P.S. My IP is 81.86.161.107
Hack that if you think you're clever enough.
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
Now, that explains why it may have been good 'back in the day', but it doesn't answer the original posters question of 'why is it still around?'
There's this new thing out called text screens. Even Windows XP has it!!! You can find it in XP under start->programs->accessories and it's called "command prompt".
And, get this. Instead of trying to figure out alle the menus and graphics you can just TYPE commands to it! It is my understanding the most UNIX and Linux systems has extended version of this features. One of my friends even saw a machine running TEXT ONLY!! I am sure that once Microsoft wrap their heads around it, they will be all over it. In fact, I would not be surprised if the next Windows would be developed for text use, with backward support for those old graphic programs. Oh, btw, I managed to get the ENTIRE screen in XP to be ALL text!
my sig
And theres STILL no easy way to configure it!
It is when they decide to go online, access $FAVORITE_SITE and find it down for some reason. And really, reliability is something people should see as the rule rather than the exception from their computers.
The majority of people can get by with pre-packaged software and the point-clicky equivilent of "redhat-config-packages". But all the ugliness on the back-end with Makefiles is what ensures it'll still be portable and usable many years from now after the prepackaged stuff is obsoleted by some newer packaging system.
When one considers the horrors of "driver disks" and "driver installation", Windows doesn't have much to brag about in the hardware department, nor does it allow me to swap out an x86 chip for a PowerPC one, for example. Macintosh-quality hardware ease is to be aspired to, but it'll take better hardware standards for that to arrive.
I can type much faster than I can point & click, and I'd wager most other people can too. What we need is not the removal of the command line but rather the update to it. What we really need is a system that allows GUI elements and command-line elements to work seamlessly such that novice users won't be confused and expert users won't be crippled by slow interfaces.
And quite frankly, all the current user interfaces have a long way to go before the needs of all users can be satisfied.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
How many times has some little "I've got a secret" registry key given you a swift kick in the naughty bits? Licensing hassle?
For a fact, we use computers to achieve some level of abstraction.
And I'll even agree with you to the point that OSS frequently has you flying below the treetops.
However, I would argue that, with late model distributions, you really get the abstraction, plus the ability to zoom in and see just WTF is going on.
True enough, most Windows users can't even find the command prompt.
Negates the value of the prompt as much as, say,
the fact that few 'lay' people ever go beyond checkbook math renders calculus valueless.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Because people want it to.
That's what I like! It looks like a F*ing cumepooter!
Its lean, its mean and everything'll be fullscreen,..
Here is a screenshot taken from this editorial
let me put it to you this way, i don't even Own a mouse on this computer.
shortcuts for browsing
GNU/screen for copypasting
Granted, no speak man nor info == no wm for harry,
But i'll even recap the *entire* 00:05 of 'info ratpoison' in a 2 second blast:
apt has it, emerge has it,... whaddaboutyou?
Cheers!
Thijs
Because Gnome isn't too swift with Cygwin/X11 on a Celeron 400 running 98SE* (hell, it doesn't even run!) Fvwm, keep on crankin'!
... and fvwm.
*-Mum's computer. Mine runs OpenBSD
DrQu+xum: Proof that the lameness filter doesn't work.
Yeah, started with RedHat's "Another Level" fvwm hack to work like AfterStep with 4.2, IIRC. Later moved to Window Maker. That lasted a few years until recently when KDE 3.x won me over. Played with Gnome with Sawmill (Sawfish) for a while - Gnome didn't impress me. Sawmill/Sawfish did.
HEY that's not funny, I just spent 6 hours fighting to get a Wyse 60 up with out knocking any of the other Wyse 60 down. Stupid 10 year old MoBo blew out 2 serial ports in a week, and if anything happens to a digiboard port, I'm going to have to reconfig one of the ports over from an unused printer config to a terminal config and in the process will have to learn more about $<0 openserver than I want to know because the support company went out of bussiness 5 years ago!
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Real men eat pancakes in the morning, fart in bed, dress in women's clothing, and hang around in bars.
Ok, I don't eat pancakes, fart in bed, _or_ hang around in bars. What was that about clothing?
Then this guy I didn't know said "I wrote that". I stopped dead in my tracks, my jaw dropped on the floor, I rewound my mental tape of what I had been saying, played it back to myself, and asked incredulously "You wrote the HyperCard Smut Stack??!" He said yes, and proceeded to tell me all about it with pride. It really made his day for somebody to bring up his baby out of the blue like that.
The guy who wrote the HyperCard Smut Stack is none other than Chuck Farnham, who is notorious in the San Francisco Bay area as a demented radio personality on Alex Bennett's "Live 105" morning radio show. "Yes this is the guy who puts food all over himself and lets people eat off of him."
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't share your opinion.
The Linux Gay Conspiracy unit has been reassigned, you are now the Apple Gay Conspirancy. Because our HQ has succesfully negotiated a deal with our long time ally, SCO, all of us homosexuals must now penetrate deeply into Apple's core. Love, Bill.
Microsoft was involved in the Motif standard, but the only similarities between motif and windows are visual. Motif got the 3D look well before Windows did, but Windows figured out the desktop metaphor before X based systems did.
When I installed my new version of Slackware (
kind of tips off where this is going doesn't it) I tried KDE. It was pretty and pleasant but I could not figure out how to slide from window (view port ? ) to window. Where do you set the edge resitance in KDE? Anyhow back to fvwm , maybe next time I will
try GNOME.
I agree with some of the other posts , why make it
look like windows? Make it look like what you want.
80486SLC was a cyrix chip that had 16 bit data bus, 24 bit memory addresses, and no math co. It performed somewhat better than a 386SX
Mine was a 33Mhz w/16Meg of memory, I took it out of service because the harddisk failed, it's mobo and memory is still in storage. I wonder if you can still get a 25Mhz 80387 for it? would make a way cool nostalgia machine
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
(Bonus points to those that have mucked around with X11 enough to know what greyweave is).
Huh? You mean you can put images on the root window?
Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't share your opinion.
So what? They're a company. Loss of marketshare means loss of profits, loss jobs, loss of money (for shareholders, for CEOs, etc). Did you really expect them *not* to do anything? Of course not. The real question is, what does the Linux community really lose by not having everyone and their grandma using it? The people who use Linux right now, are the people who beleive Linux is the tool they need to get the job done. As long as that continues, whats the problem?
Hmm... it's seems like you don't neen even FVWM then, just run the naked X server!
Less is more !
"Nostalgically twm would be more cool. fvwm, fvwm2, fvwm95, icewm, sawfish are the 'other' window managers."
Actually, I think twm would be an 'other' as well. I believe the original window manager was xwm.
http://www.plig.org/xwinman/others.html
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
You blew our cover. You're fired!
Clickety Click
That was quite a long reply to a oneliner with no argument.
That should be "person with whom you disagree". Your mama must have been too busy sucking cock to teach you anything.
yeah-- redundant, but like the poseter, I've tried kde and gnome numerous times and I always return to fvwm-- because it doesn't suck.
It doesn't make applications fail. It just runs applications. I've thrown my hands up many times because of weird cofiguration problems with kde and gnome (all the while thinking, what the fuck is--,this win95?)
fvwm is simple and it works.
I despise windows because it tries to do too much. I despise gnome and kde for the same reasons. All the window manager should do is manage windows. Why would I want all that eye candy gumming up the works? It's useless.
spanish bombs?
Why should you care what other people think about yet other peoples' choice of window manager? I like fvwm, it works well, is fast and reliable. As a counter-example, Gnome and KDE take way too long to load, and their virtual desktop support isn't as refined (I love reflexively hitting control-arrow keys). And I think my .xsession/.fvwm2rc combination makes my desktop look very nice and elegant.
Does your mom count?
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
that you get a life?
Thank you.
What can I say, I'm bored =D
My CS department has an old (at least I hope so) version of fvwm as the default WM with a particularily horrid colour scheme. I've heard the reason is to force the students to delve into the config files so avoid going insane.
I stole this Sig
Here is a link to the screeshot running on my little Debian/Arm Netwinder Apache webserver:
My Screenshot [327850]
Er... yeah that FVWM looks pretty nice (snicker).
Clickety Click
...but I have it configured to look like uwm.
My first experience with Unix-esque systems and X-Windows was in 1993 when I started college. At the time my choice was TWM or FVWM. FVWM was clearly the more advanced option and one of the more advanced window managers at the time. (CDE looked advanced, but was more of a hassle than it was worth.)
Since then I've tended to be lazy and taken what I was given, stuck with whatever was the default. As a result I spend a long time with Enlightenment followed by SawFish/SawMill. I've dabbled with a number of other window managers.
Then last year (2002), I took a job back at my old university. The default was still FVWM! And while FVWM had matured, it remained instantly identifable. I hadn't used it in five years, but it came back instantly. It felt right. Sure, it lacks classy menus, but the configuration file was easy enough to use and let me set things up how I wanted. Most window managers are determined to stick the various window management buttons where they want them. FVWM makes it easy to stick them where I want them. It's a minimal WM, I don't run any of the modules except for the pager (to switch between virtual desktops) and the IconMan, a very minimal list of windows on each desktop. My desktop is spartan and I've discovered that I really like it.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
It's OS X. And it looks nothing like Windows, and for me that's a huge point in its favor.
(And yes, you are right, it started with SLS. And backups on a floppy streamer... And a VLB graphics card... And alt.os.linux... And kernel patches via Usenet...) *sigh*
;-)
Why *sigh*? Them were the good ole days of Linux.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
wtf? long enough? shit. how old am I?
Just out of curiousity-- why would you want a picture on your root window? Does all of your sratch paper have pictures of puppies on it?
I'm sure I left a few out. So, is there a wm that does all these things? Are these things possible? Have I just not read enough docs? Please, I'm here to learn.
gnustep is getting better!. it is useable thank you very much. and, there is even an os based on it. http://simplygnustep.sourceforge.net/ there is a temporary lull as our main developer is out on a business trip, and we have to update the screen shots :-) , but it's getting there.
Keep in Mind that Windows is a complete Operating System.
Of course it does "too much" when compared to fvwm.
Especially when you try to pronounce it.
I've heard attempts at putting every imaginable vowel sound between the letters in FVWM, and never with good results.
I think fvwm2 is the best window manager and I'm really happy to see this thread. ... I think that's it.
I think that window manager/desktop must have the following features:
* ability to start xterm instantaneously
* pager which shows windows and their titles
* flexible configuration in an editable file
Now I know that there are some newer wms which can do that as well, but I think fvwm was the first one which offered this and I see no reason to switch.
I passed the Turing test.
Arright, so what the fsck does the V stand for?
For a lot of people. Thats why there is a little bit of a push to emulate it. I'm not saying its the best, but it's fairly easy to understand and a lot of people have been trained to use it.
;-)
Different strokes. The Linux community really seems to get that.
A large part of the reason I switched from using Windows was so I could customize my operating system to better suit me (the explorer shell felt "clunky" to me). Although I did try things like Geoshell and Litestep it still felt "heavy" to me.
I preffer Blackbox (the older sibling of your own Fluxbox).
Anyhow, I seem to have drifted off. My point is a Windows style desktop manager would be great on Linux and let them complain. You and I know all we really need is a fast menu and a good background (and stuff).
Quack, quack.
What is X and what does it have to do with fvwvqm, whatever that is?
Repeal the DMCA!
The virtual desktop can be panned across, and you can set the physical desktop *anywhere* within the virtual desktop space, so the physical desktop isn't just constrained to be on coordinates in the virtual desktop that are integer multiples of the physical desktop size. AFAIK, none of the other more recent window managers have ever incorporated this idea, but it's far and away the feature I liked the most about it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
keyboard short-cuts are easy to implement. Anything else is bloat.
*cough* ratpoison *cough*
Virtual.
Arright, smart guy. What about the W?
... which totally rocks, but is hard to find. Lets see if I can post the thing on my wee server, ah yes, I will post in into my /misc dir. You want to install the gnome pixmap theme first, which will give you support to run this awesome thing. Look at my "Gimp" window - used it to make my screenshot.
Graphite 1.2.x Get it or you suck! (Its only a theme, you can switch them at your whim).
E-16 + "Hand of God" + Gnome "Graphite" = Beauty!
Try it... you'll like it!
Clickety Click
You seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between a window manager (fvwm) and a desktop environment (gnome).
They don't look professional like this one
It kinda feels stupid now but I was afrade of GUIs before I used Linux.
Here's the story.
Back when I used Geos 64 very easy but having already learned CP/M at the time the GUI seamed very impractical. But fun and reasonably easy to learn for those not already familure with the command line.
(You have to realise that CP/M had very few commands to remember. In this context "user friendly" is more the case of not frightening the user than actually helping him to understand anything)
Then I went to Dos and Geoworks... Tried Windows and was thinking "This is user friendly?"
After that I was pritty much afrade of trying out any GUI. Seamed to me that "User Friendly" was marketting for "Built for people who don't know better" and the hype had it that GUI was User Friendly.
But I couldn't dodge the bullet forever. I'd already used Unix (AT&Ts 3B2) and already priced commertal *nixes (Only $100 for the users manual...) and desided Linux was the only option.
Slackware was an easy enough choice for me.
(I could walk over to Walnut Creek CD Rom at the time..)
And the first GUI I saw on Linux was pritty decent. FVWM. I tried FVWM95 and the LesTif but found I prefered FVWM.
Nice light weight easy and simple.
Of course it wasn't FVWM alone that ended my phobia of GUIs. I switched around and used a lot of *nix GUI's before giving up my phobia.
I don't actually exist.
vwm == virtual window manager - aka, it's a window manager, and has the virtual desktops we've all come to know and love (and miss when using non-X11 systems)
:-)
on the plus side, I just found out about http://desktopian.org/bb4win. My windows dev box is now much more tolerable
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Window
(Yes, I know. I've been trolled)
The GPL is pro-capitalism. Information isn't capital (it isn't "scarce" in the economic sense), and pretending it is deprives civilization of much of its value--for no better reason than to prop up our hopelessly outmoded system for compensating creative work. Look at the music and movie cartels to see how businesses built on exclusionary restrictions over information make a mockery of capitalism.
The GPL is pro-innovation. While innovating isn't required, guaranteeing that it's possible for everyone is a large part of the reason Free Software (as in speech) exists. If a third party wants to add clustering (for instance) to the Windows 2000 kernel, they're screwed--with GNU/Linux it's actually been done!
fihv-uh-whum
All I can say from the screenshots is that there may be usability issues. Icons are non-instructive, fonts are ugly, window decorations are misguiding (for example, what does the down arrow do ? minimize or close the app ?), etc etc.
(As a side note, I installed KDE 3.0 recently. All is good, but I have two major complaints: 1) menu fonts are really big; text is jammed together, making it difficult to read; 2) the start menu has quite a lot of things that only long-time linux users know what they are.)
I hope this is taken as constructive critisism. These guys do a hell of a job when it comes to programming, but there are still usability issues.
It's not even worthy of my first asshole. God bless colitis, as it has given me a second asshold worthy of fvwm.
Finally, someone hits on the (only) reason I love and still use FVWM. The pager is the best. FVWM's pager is the only one that I've been able to set up so that I could scroll around the 2-D grid of desktops using Ctrl+Arrow_Key. I love my 3x3 array of desktops. I put an xterm in three of them and a browser in some and, with autofocus, switch between them without taking my hands off the keyboard.
A few years back (well, seven or so, heh), I tried to hack the FvwmPager module so that it could be run in any WM but was unsucsessful.
Actually, one other WM that I know of had a pager like this. OpenView (I think thats what it was called) came with my first Linux install back in late 93, IIRC, and I used it for a while on my 486/66 + 16M (!!!).
I understand the youngsters these days don't use paper any more, except in the toilet. For me, a black root window is as good as a white background on scratch paper.
For the first year of my PhD I was stuck with a sparcstation 5 on my desk (32Meg ram, processor like a fast 486). It ran CDE and it was just too painful for words.
Installing FVWM gave me a faster, more usable desktop that kept me from going insane until we got the budget to buy a new computer (which unfortunately runs win2K, but I guess you can't have everything)
Aahhhh, the memories. The first time I got X running on my Linux box was with TinyX, a slimmed down X11 that came on a single floppy. You basically got the X server, an xterm, but no window manager. Of course, in those misguided days, I wanted to run mwm, which was only available for Linux at vast expense (lesstif hadn't evolved that far then).
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Dude, this is awesome! Give 'em another year or two, and by the time 1990 rolls around, this is going to be one kickass windowing environment!
/usr/ports...make install clean it for fun.
Wait a minute, just kidding, don't freak out. It actually looks all right (except for those X-y fonts), and I haven't used it in so long I might just cd
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
But thanks for biting. Pulling off a troll with such obvious bait gives me the self-esteem boost I need to make it possible for me to face each day.
Not just Unix GUIs.
A wonderful troll! Bravo!
Trolling is a art,
I'm asking for trouble with that subject line, but many thanks and happy birthday to fvwm. I use it because you can bind everything that matters to your idea of sensible keys (using a text based config file instead of a bloated control panel with nested dialogs) and that really helps avoid RSI.
>
fvwm is simple and it works.
What the hell? You talk about configuration problems with KDE and GNOME, yet fvwm is practically one of the hardest window managers to configure properly.
> Like, say, apps with hybrid command line/graphic interfaces.
KDE can do this-- Konqueror can split views and embed konsole in one... duo cmd line/file manager/web browser/KitchenSync.
> But then again, neither me nor you nor anyone can make Linux developers do this or that; everybody is free to choose what to do with our Linux-hacking time.
Yup. People will work on what they want to, what they are interested in, and what the beleive in.
fvwm is so much more bloated than ratpoison. when ratpoison came out, I ditched fvwm like a old piece of meat.
Of course, since I got my p4 3.06 (with HT, mind you), I've been using KDE more and more. I miss some of the keyboard shortcuts, even with all the GUI effects on, it runs as fast as fvwm or ratpoison.
I just wonder why you need a WM to run xvidtune.
Nowadays, FVWM has "COOL" features like antialiased text, rotated text, text drop shadows, text outline shadow (I've never seen text outline shadow anywhere else), semi-transparent widgets, etc, etc.
Unfortunately, most of the users seem to be extremely design-impaired / color-blind, so most of the screenshots on the web are ass-ugly. But don't let that stop you, people. You can make it look however you want.
Now, where is my Usenet-proofed asbestos underwear...
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
Damn Neighbours.... making their own window managers now....
-- I love the smell of Blue Screens in the morning.
Funny only in the same sense that road kill smells funny after a day or two.
Call me a nittpicker, but this is what gives *everyone* introduced to GNU/Linux the creeps.
:-)
Even with themes those desktops more than often look like someone did doo-doo on those screens.
I never was convinced by fvwm and its shoddy-looking, pixelfont-ridden little gadgets on the screen. They where introduced to me 5 years ago and look crappy back then allready.
Here I'd like to hail Enlightenment and GKrellm, projects that actually managed to look like something done by people not completely colorblind.
Mod me down, but to me fvwm, along with Motifs bizar font technologies is one of those odd anacronisims of GNU/Linux that I would want begone rather sooner than later. Those geeks who still use fvwm, do as you please, but you might want to switch your WM before showing of Linux to some n00b, or else it could be that they think you're a little far out.
Oh, and Happy Birthday anyway.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The GPL is pro-capitalism.
Oh, really? Then can you explain the anti-corporate propaganda on the Gnu web site?
Information isn't capital (it isn't "scarce" in the economic sense)
Wrong. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. The only thing that determines whether a thing is an economic object or not is whether it behaves like one. If I have information and you lack it, I can give it to you in exchange for consideration. Therefore information is most definitely capital.
Those who say it isn't are most often those who reject the idea of property outright, and that's inherently anti-capitalist on its face, so there's no point in discussing that position.
Look at the music and movie cartels
Do you even know what the word "cartel" means? You should look it up. Or maybe it's your grasp of reality that's flawed. One or the other.
The GPL is pro-innovation.
How do you justify this with the clause in the GPL that says you HAVE to give away your source code FOR NOTHING to ANYONE who wants it? How is that pro-innovation? "Yes, you can innovate, but you may not sell what you create." Whatever.
While innovating isn't required, guaranteeing that it's possible for everyone is a large part of the reason Free Software (as in speech) exists.
Which would explain why there has never been any form of innovation in any "free software" (as in absurdly restricted) product ever. A lot of people have thrown away their work by releasing software under the GPL, but nobody has EVER taken that work, innovated, and shipped it back into the community.
Where's the real innovation happening? Places like Apple and others, that take truly free software (i.e., BSD-licensed software) and build something wonderful with it. Profit motive. It's a glorious thing. And the GPL seeks to torpedo it and send it straight to the bottom.
If a third party wants to add clustering (for instance) to the Windows 2000 kernel, they're screwed--with GNU/Linux it's actually been done!
There are many third-party clustering solutions for Windows 2000. You don't know what you're talking about.
What is it with these Jewish religious fanatics? They're as bad as the right wing Christians. Funny, both groups seem to serve Jewish interests though.
Just say No.
Why a desktop image? That just adds to the clutter. *box with the Cthulain suits me well. The background is a cool slate blue-grey that's real easy on the eyes, there are no icons to get in the way. and with openbox I can change desktops/windowshade windows with the wheel mouse. Simplistic. yes. But it beats the hell out of explorer.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
How? and Why? The command line is there for a reason. It's easier to construct arbitrary commands and handle a lot of options with a command line. Say you're using something like cdrecord. Do you really need a GUI? type $cdrecord image.iso and let 'er fly. If you need a special option, is it easier to page through a bunch of tabs and checkboxes, or / through a man page? I'd say it's easier to / through a man page, plus once you know what you're gonna use, a simple wrapper script will do it every time.
And when you hide the CLI, how are you going to implement piping? How can you use conditionals and variables? You can't do this simply in a GUI, and that's why the CLI is so powerful. Do a little bash scripting, and you'll soon be using for loops and &&, and $() on the command line. If you think the CLI is just "left over", you don't really know how to use it.
Someone on slashdot said, "The difference between windows and linux is not that linux lacks a decent GUI, but windows lacks a decent CLI." I totally agree. I don't know how windows users get by without bash. With tab completion, history, wildcards, grep, sed and dozens of other command line tools, I can move, view, and convert my data faster than a windows user could traverse a graphical directory tree to find the same files. Think about it, with a CLI you press the buttons and it happens. There's no looking for anything. It may be a bit confusing at first, but it's faster in the long run, and you can do things the interface designer never intended or imagined.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I don't start many GUI applications. (Browser is always running, xterms launched from a keybinding.) When I do, I just type 'xfig &' or whatever. No need for a menu. My background menu launches terminals ssh'd to various servers. It's arranged hierarchically by site. I don't want the WM resorting it based on usage, because it's already sorted correctly.
In a nutshell, you like Microsoft's idea but not their implementation. Hence, KDE - a hopefully superior implementation of the Microsoft idea. I don't like Microsft's idea, and the poor implementation was just icing on the cake.
I've used a lot of WM's over the last decade and have kept coming back to fvwm since '95 or so. I'm so much more productive when I'm on a linux box and my custom setup than with other window managers or in windows or on my new mac (hoping I'll get used to its shortcomings soon). For network engineering, I mostly need lots of xterms (or rxvt's or what have you) and some browser windows that are easily organized and easy to get around between. Everything below is something that I have had trouble with in mac osx, windows, kde, gnome or other wm's/environments. If anyone thinks there's another interface that does everything I list (note that lots of them can do some or most of this), let me know and I'll try it out sometime.
- most importantly, i need about 10 virtual desktops, with a scaled down view of windows on each desktop and the ability to easily drag a window to another desktop. the pager should always be on top (i.e. never covered)
- the ability to move around the screen easily via keyboard. e.g. i use shift-arrow to move from virtual desktop to virtual desktop, ctrl-arrow to move 10 or 20 pixels at a time, and shift-ctrl-arrow to move 1 or 2 pixels at a time. note that those last two can take me to another virtual desktop. the mouse however, i can move as much as i like without flipping to another desktop. i can click a desktop on the pager if i don't want to go back to the keyboard
- four clean terminal windows easily fit per screen with readable text. font size should be easily changed (e.g. right-click and pull down to the size you want). also, windows must be resizeable by grabbing and dragging any side. anyone know an easier way around the default (right corner only) resize limitation in mac osx?
- cut and paste has to be quick and easy - e.g. highlight in one window and middle-click in another. this is my main obstacle to liking mac osx. someone tell me there's a tweak for this somewhere without just running x in root mode (which I've been holding off on)
- customizable menus that come up when clicking the desktop to save real estate versus a dock or task bar or whatever. should have options for move, close, and kill.
- unless someone got focus follows thought worked out, here's what i want: sloppy focus follows mouse, no auto-raising of windows (i need to look at one window and type in another), and one raise window key combo that with one press raises or lowers the window in focus and with additional use cycles through all windows on that desktop
- not a hard and fast requirement, but i do prefer a config file that's easy to grep through than endless menus. i list this just as a barrier to entry. for all i know lots of wm's have done all of the above for quite some time, but i've gotten frustrated with poor config menus and given up on them.
I sense that Red Hat is moving away from users like you and me. Yes, I also run Red Hat. It's time to move on to Gentoo or Debian.
You don't speak Welsh, do you?
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
I was hoping for something about GWM, the Generic Window Manager, which I used for a while... It was none too speedy on my Sparc LX, but it was pretty flexible.
I tried to xmkmf it a year or so ago but the libraries are too changed. I didn't feel like playing too much, so I gave up.
Since I'm using Gentoo
I started out on Red Hat 5.0
Name dropping wanna be 31337 fagghorx! Quit sucking your own dick in public!
Mr. Garrison: I heard there is no Christmas
In the silly Middle East
No trees, no snow, no Santa Claus
They have different religious beliefs
They believe in Muhammad
And not in our holiday
And so every December
I go to the Middle East and say...
"Hey there Mr. Muslim
Merry fucking Christmas
Put down that book the Koran
And hear some holiday wishes.
In case you haven't noticed
It's Jesus's birthday.
So get off your heathen Muslim ass
and fucking celebrate.
There is no holiday season in India I've heard
They don't hang up their stockings
And that is just absurd!
They've never read a Christmas story.
They don't know what Rudolph is about
And that is why in December
I'll go to India and shout...
Hey there Mr. Hinduist
Merry fucking Christmas
Drink eggnog and eat some beef
And pass it to the missus.
In case you haven't noticed
It's Jesus's birthday
So get off your heathen Hindu ass
and fucking celebrate!
Now I heard that in Japan
Everyone just lives in sin
They pray to several gods
And put needles in their skin.
On December 25th
All they do is eat a cake
And that is why I go to Japan
And walk around and say...
Hey there Mr. Shintoist
Merry fucking Christmas
God is going to kick your ass
You infidelic pagan scum.
In case you haven't noticed
There's festive things to do
So lets all rejoice for Jesus
And Merry fucking Christmas to you.
On Christmas day I travel `round the world and say,
Taoists, Krishnas, Buddhists, and all you atheists too,
Merry Fucking Christmas, To You!
(Clapping)
Thank you Mr. hat