"your mother... what? Doesnt want "fucking idiot" on her record? I have no idea where "Yo mama!" by itself would fit in this context."
So, in other words, you are a 'fucking idiot'.
" That is to say, while I have no evidence of anything else.."
Yeah, you wouldn't want to make a judgement after finding out all you can or anything.
"... I do have evidence of two things: 1) You are a fucking idiot"
Let's see... I made a comment that you forgot to post anonymously when flaming an AC over a comment that was questionably sarcastic. You didn't understand why you'd post anonymously when being a shithead, therefore I am the 'fucking idiot' for some reason. (amusing logic there, btw.) So your inability to understand somebody else's point (add to that your failure to request clarification) somehow leads to my being an idiot.
Your 'evidence' is in question.
"2) You don't know that you are a fucking idiot"
How could I or anybody else know that I am? You've failed to provide any sort of reasoning behind it. You just sound like a parrot.
"therefor, I must try to make this clear, and since I know no other way of saying it, I can only repeat myself a second time:"
Well, to be fair, you're not doing anything but saying that. You really don't seem to know how to do much else.
"These new live CDs finally give us the chance to introduce Linux to the masses."
*Cough*karmawhore*cough*
Sorry, this is not going to get Linux out to the masses.
1.) Playing around with the XBOX on a fuzzy TV is not going to impress people to the point of installing a new OS.
2.) If they've got an XBOX, they're likely a gamer. They're not going to dump Windows for Linux. Bad audience to target.
3.) More people have PCs than XBOXs, so why target a niche product anyway?
" Recently I emailed dozens of my friends, and I will attempt to introduce them to Linux in a way thats safe, with these new CDs you dont have to actually install Linux."
I have a better idea, use Knoppix. (Slashdot also recently had an article about Knoppix MAME which comes with MAME...) You burn an ISO, leave the Knoppix CD you just burned in your drive, reboot computer, wait for a minute and Linux comes up. No fuss. No installation. Completely useful.
Here's the best part: Knoppix can access NTFS. So, the big bonus here is that if anybody ever fries their Windows system, they can just pop this disc in and get back to their files. Heck, if they really feel like tinkering with it, it's like having their workstation on a CD. Bitchin.
"People are going to read this and think i'm some kinda Linux zealot...."
Aww my feelings are hurt. Afterall, a 'fucking' idiot is the worst kind! Please, could you just reduce the sentence to plain old 'idiot'? Pleeeeeeeeease? I don't want 'fucking idiot' on my record!
"I too did a bit of looking and I can't find anything more concrete than opinions, on either side of the debate."
Sounds like we should just agree to disagree and move on.:) (just so you know, I am considering what you said. I hadn't thought of 'the movie look' just reflecting the way a movie looks...)
"I have no idea how animation would work either way, for lack of motion-blur and all, but if it were me, I'd do it at 24fps (or less) just so I didn't have to take so many pictures!:)"
Ha! That's part of it, but the impact's not as bad as one would think. 30 fps is 20% more frames than 24. 30 to 60 is as simple as turning interlacing on. It's not 2x the rendering time, but more like 1.25. (Sometimes it's higher, but not often...) It can be done. Reboot did it, Beast Wars did it.. oh there's a third one... oh Voltron! Yeah Voltron did it too. It looked strange at that speed.
"TV isn't really 60fps though, and I wonder if part of what makes TV feel less dramatic (if it does...) is the interlaced video."
Hmm. I'll ponder that idea for a bit, but to be honest it doesn't immediately strike a chord with me. TVs do a pretty good job of hiding the interlacing. It's very easy to spot on a computer monitor, but TVs have a form of blending going on. On the other hand, lines drawn at an angle do have a crawling effect going on...
Ugh, yeah I'll have to think about that s'more. One of these days I'm going to have to watch 60p video.
"Don't mind the double quote, you're arguments are worth reading and I won't pick nits as long as you don't start complaining about my spelling. "
Appreciated. Don't worry, though, I'm not one to nitpick spelling normally. I don't liken a spelling bee competition to an IQ test.;)
"I've seen a ton of talk about slow framerates and none of it has said anything about inate psychological reasons. People talk as if they exist, but they get quiet when asked to provide evidence."
That's because the evidence is hard to find. I went looking for it, and it's elusive. (Amusingly, though, I couldn't find information to support your claim either...)
I did find a couple of excerpts that hint at it, though. I don't imagine they'll change your mind, but the best I can do is present them. If we can't agree, we can't agree, but at least information can be shared. I'll show you the excerpts here. I'm using the Google Cache because it is responsive and the keywords are highlighted. I figured that'd give you a way to see what I searched for and do your own research if you like.
But the process involves altering reality while recording and traveling through it. Each production choice -- lens, film stock, camera movement, etcetera -- captures some images and rejects others. Hence the images are less a matter of objective accuracy and more a matter of filmmakers describing the reality they want audiences to believe exists. Composition, mise-en-scene, acting, directing -- the entire panoply of motion picture production techniques and technology generate realistic images reflecting attitudes about the physical and psychological worlds in which we live.
Ever watch Red Dwarf? It's a British Comedy set in space, and it's recorded at 50fps PAL. In it's 7th season, it turned towards drama. That particular season was filmed at 25 fps instead of 50. Believe it or not, it did make a difference. It felt more serious. It felt more like we were watching events that have already happened. (as opposed to watching them unfold...) This is a psychological effect much like what was described in my quote. Yes, it made a psychological difference.
This article here you might find interesting. It talks about different 'appearances' and interpretations based on frame rate and how fast something movies across the screen. No, it doesn't exactly say "24fps is interpreted differently from 60 fps". Not trying to claim it does. I do think it helps support the idea that frame rate is a factor in sending artistic messages, or in other words, evoking emotions. Benny Hill comes to mind.
I'm going to be honest with you. I can't provide evidence for you. This does not shake my belief, however, because I've studied this quite heavily on my own. Movies are of strong interest to me as I am an animator. One day I want to make my own movie or series. I've experimented with ideas about that and one of the rules I wanted to follow was "it must run at 60 fps". I wanted to take full advantage of the speed that offers. Unfortunately, the faster frame-rate didn't hold up to my expectations. It looked cheap. It was hard to take any of the events seriously. It looked like I was watching the news.
"I haven't seen any studies that suggest there's any reason, other than familiarity and nostalgia for the differing feeling people get when they watch the same video at slower framerates. "
Big deal. You didn't see anything, it doesn't exist?
One of the reasons the lower frame rate looks more natural is because you get a longer motion blur. Your eyes don't flicker. They collect light and send it to the brain. If I wave my hand in front of my face now, it's a blur. If I wave my hand in front of my video camera @ 60 fps I get a fairly clean picture of my hand strobing across the screen. It doesn't look right.
It has nothing at all to do with people clinging to old or familiar technology. It has to do with a decision made by the movie maker (not the audience) to go with this look. Running every movie at 60fps or higher will not automatically make any movie look better.
Ever see Lexx? It's shot at 50fps. (At least it looks like it, it might be 60, but I got the impression it was shot on PAL originally.) It looks strange. Looks cheap. Doctor Who was like that too. It was originally shot at 50 fps PAL, and was alright. No complaints about it. Though the reason for the lack of complaints is that Doctor Who was rather cheap and campy. But when the American Doctor Who movie came out at 24fps, it looked a great deal more dramatic. Like watching a movie. Not because it was degraded. Because it was more stable. I'm sure the added motion blur + less strobing helped with that as well.
"I haven't seen any studies that suggest there's any reason..."
Frankly, I don't think you've looked. You're so locked into the idea that people cling to old technology. You never seem to notice evidence all over that's contradicting you, namely every drama that's on TV today. ER is shot in high-definition. It could be running at 60 fps progressive. Nope, they chose 24. It doesn't look right when you have a drama at 60fps. Looks great for sports, the news, documentaries, etc. Just not drama.
"It's like people who don't like e-books because they don't have the smell and texture of paper!?!"
Apples to oranges. Most people aren't aware of the change in frame-rate, just that it looks different. It's like using candlelight to change the mood of the room. Though I suppose we should all do away with candles once for all and only use bright electric modern light?
You're willing to accept your rationale but you can't handle the idea of the psychological aspects of watching slower frame-rate video? Events that happen in slow motion have no effect on people?
Suit yourself. I'd recommend, though, that you do a little independent study about animation techniques. That's not an insult or anything, but it would definitely provide some insight into this discussion.
"Umm...who confuses "cr" with a "z"??? I don't think people are that out of it."
Welcome to the legal world. Actually, they probably shouldn't have brought up the whole zombie thing. If they had chosen cn instead of z, then they would have had a case. Abercnombie.com would definitely have been an attempt to confuse people. Instead, by making it say 'zombie', they reinforced the parody defense.
You're right, the claim that 'Aberzombie' wouldn't confuse anybody is ridiculous, especially considering they have it in big letters on their site. Chad did all the right things in making this parody site. I was particularly impressed that he bought his own stock photography.
Heh, you guys might find this funny. I was reading about the Register today and they had an interesting editorial about Hilary Rosen. Check it out here. I about died laughing when I read that.
"Seems they distribute music people actually want to - gasp - Buy... "
Jack Valenti really pissed me off by saying "There is no business model that can compete with free!" in reference to P2P trading of movies. What he doesn't understand is that people actually pay for services too as well as goods. Why would I spend an hour downloading an album I want if I can pay $10 to a website and download it in couple of minutes with guaranteed quality?
I'd love to ask him this: "Your office provides all the coffee you can drink, right? Do you go to Starbucks?"
"No 2GHZ Intel chip has the power to emulate a Cube, and would have a difficult time even handling the PS2 at acceptable speeds."
It doesn't need to emulate a GameCube or PS2, it just needs to play the games. Somebody could probably write a wrapper that takes commands from the GameCube code and translates them to the 3D accelerator. Seeing as how it's an ATI graphics processor on that machine, I don't think that's an impossible task. Though I do wonder if the PS2 would be as easy to port.
It's been done before with the Nintendo 64. Anybody remember UltraHLE? It worked on Pentium 2s. You just needed a Voodoo card. It didn't emulate the N64, it just used a wrapper to send commands to the Voodoo. Cool idea if you ask me.
"Lone Starr? Give up. You're at least third. One offtopic, One redundant. The mods obviously didn't like the movie."
Know what's funny? I read through the posts and didn't see any Spaceballs references. Didn't occur to me to set my threshold to -1. Heh.
In my defense, though, mine was delivered a little better. There's a difference between quoting a movie and imagining people saying stuff like that in real life.
Anybody remember the Ninja Turtles coin-op game? That was a lot of fun to play with a friend. There was a whole slew of them. The Simpsons! Heh.
In this day and age of consoles with 4 controller ports, gotta admit I'm saddened that this genre has disappeared. You didn't need no stinking split-screen.
Fortunately, there is a Ninja Turtles game for the GameCube in the works.
Slashdot Mirror
"your mother... what? Doesnt want "fucking idiot" on her record? I have no idea where "Yo mama!" by itself would fit in this context."
So, in other words, you are a 'fucking idiot'.
" That is to say, while I have no evidence of anything else.."
Yeah, you wouldn't want to make a judgement after finding out all you can or anything.
"... I do have evidence of two things: 1) You are a fucking idiot"
Let's see... I made a comment that you forgot to post anonymously when flaming an AC over a comment that was questionably sarcastic. You didn't understand why you'd post anonymously when being a shithead, therefore I am the 'fucking idiot' for some reason. (amusing logic there, btw.) So your inability to understand somebody else's point (add to that your failure to request clarification) somehow leads to my being an idiot.
Your 'evidence' is in question.
"2) You don't know that you are a fucking idiot"
How could I or anybody else know that I am? You've failed to provide any sort of reasoning behind it. You just sound like a parrot.
"therefor, I must try to make this clear, and since I know no other way of saying it, I can only repeat myself a second time:"
Well, to be fair, you're not doing anything but saying that. You really don't seem to know how to do much else.
"You are a fucking idiot."
Wanna cracker, Polly?
If I'm the 'fucking idiot' here, then how come the best insult you can come up with involves repeating the one you have already flung at me?
Are you going to say "Yo mama!" too?
Just tell me how fast Lightwave renders. That is where time actually equals money for me.
"These new live CDs finally give us the chance to introduce Linux to the masses."
;)
*Cough*karmawhore*cough*
Sorry, this is not going to get Linux out to the masses.
1.) Playing around with the XBOX on a fuzzy TV is not going to impress people to the point of installing a new OS.
2.) If they've got an XBOX, they're likely a gamer. They're not going to dump Windows for Linux. Bad audience to target.
3.) More people have PCs than XBOXs, so why target a niche product anyway?
" Recently I emailed dozens of my friends, and I will attempt to introduce them to Linux in a way thats safe, with these new CDs you dont have to actually install Linux."
I have a better idea, use Knoppix. (Slashdot also recently had an article about Knoppix MAME which comes with MAME...) You burn an ISO, leave the Knoppix CD you just burned in your drive, reboot computer, wait for a minute and Linux comes up. No fuss. No installation. Completely useful.
Here's the best part: Knoppix can access NTFS. So, the big bonus here is that if anybody ever fries their Windows system, they can just pop this disc in and get back to their files. Heck, if they really feel like tinkering with it, it's like having their workstation on a CD. Bitchin.
"People are going to read this and think i'm some kinda Linux zealot...."
Actually, I was thinking karma whore.
"... or even get Linux to run on the PS2."
It's there, but it's not free.
"You're a fucking idiot."
Aww my feelings are hurt. Afterall, a 'fucking' idiot is the worst kind! Please, could you just reduce the sentence to plain old 'idiot'? Pleeeeeeeeease? I don't want 'fucking idiot' on my record!
"I too did a bit of looking and I can't find anything more concrete than opinions, on either side of the debate."
:) (just so you know, I am considering what you said. I hadn't thought of 'the movie look' just reflecting the way a movie looks...)
:)"
... oh Voltron! Yeah Voltron did it too. It looked strange at that speed.
Sounds like we should just agree to disagree and move on.
"I have no idea how animation would work either way, for lack of motion-blur and all, but if it were me, I'd do it at 24fps (or less) just so I didn't have to take so many pictures!
Ha! That's part of it, but the impact's not as bad as one would think. 30 fps is 20% more frames than 24. 30 to 60 is as simple as turning interlacing on. It's not 2x the rendering time, but more like 1.25. (Sometimes it's higher, but not often...) It can be done. Reboot did it, Beast Wars did it.. oh there's a third one
"TV isn't really 60fps though, and I wonder if part of what makes TV feel less dramatic (if it does...) is the interlaced video."
Hmm. I'll ponder that idea for a bit, but to be honest it doesn't immediately strike a chord with me. TVs do a pretty good job of hiding the interlacing. It's very easy to spot on a computer monitor, but TVs have a form of blending going on. On the other hand, lines drawn at an angle do have a crawling effect going on...
Ugh, yeah I'll have to think about that s'more. One of these days I'm going to have to watch 60p video.
"please do some research on sarcasm."
Sarcasm's only funny when people can tell it's sarcasm. Some places do charge you to ship an item back for warranty repair.
"Then shut the fuck up."
Ya forgot to check the 'post anonymously' button there Sherlock.
"I want it built into my sun glasses, so I if I focus on an object for 250 ms, it pops up a little yellow box telling me what it is. "
That way, when you look in the mirror, it can say "perpetually available".
" there is no LEGITIMATE use of CSS on the first place "
Seeing as how you cannot prove that anything doesn't exist, I don't see what's so insightful about this comment.
Appreciated. Don't worry, though, I'm not one to nitpick spelling normally. I don't liken a spelling bee competition to an IQ test.
"I've seen a ton of talk about slow framerates and none of it has said anything about inate psychological reasons. People talk as if they exist, but they get quiet when asked to provide evidence."
That's because the evidence is hard to find. I went looking for it, and it's elusive. (Amusingly, though, I couldn't find information to support your claim either...)
I did find a couple of excerpts that hint at it, though. I don't imagine they'll change your mind, but the best I can do is present them. If we can't agree, we can't agree, but at least information can be shared. I'll show you the excerpts here. I'm using the Google Cache because it is responsive and the keywords are highlighted. I figured that'd give you a way to see what I searched for and do your own research if you like.
This article has an interesting quote: http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:qcOLeVEakl8J: www.occ.cc.mi.us/moviepage/menustructure/whatisamo vie/Production%2520Tech.htm+24+%22frames+per+secon d%22+psychological&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Ever watch Red Dwarf? It's a British Comedy set in space, and it's recorded at 50fps PAL. In it's 7th season, it turned towards drama. That particular season was filmed at 25 fps instead of 50. Believe it or not, it did make a difference. It felt more serious. It felt more like we were watching events that have already happened. (as opposed to watching them unfold...) This is a psychological effect much like what was described in my quote. Yes, it made a psychological difference.
This article here you might find interesting. It talks about different 'appearances' and interpretations based on frame rate and how fast something movies across the screen. No, it doesn't exactly say "24fps is interpreted differently from 60 fps". Not trying to claim it does. I do think it helps support the idea that frame rate is a factor in sending artistic messages, or in other words, evoking emotions. Benny Hill comes to mind.
I'm going to be honest with you. I can't provide evidence for you. This does not shake my belief, however, because I've studied this quite heavily on my own. Movies are of strong interest to me as I am an animator. One day I want to make my own movie or series. I've experimented with ideas about that and one of the rules I wanted to follow was "it must run at 60 fps". I wanted to take full advantage of the speed that offers. Unfortunately, the faster frame-rate didn't hold up to my expectations. It looked cheap. It was hard to take any of the events seriously. It looked like I was watching the news.
Part of the problem was motio
Well that's embarrasin. I quoted ya twice. Heh. Oh well. I'm not at my best when I just wake up.
"I haven't seen any studies that suggest there's any reason, other than familiarity and nostalgia for the differing feeling people get when they watch the same video at slower framerates. "
Big deal. You didn't see anything, it doesn't exist?
One of the reasons the lower frame rate looks more natural is because you get a longer motion blur. Your eyes don't flicker. They collect light and send it to the brain. If I wave my hand in front of my face now, it's a blur. If I wave my hand in front of my video camera @ 60 fps I get a fairly clean picture of my hand strobing across the screen. It doesn't look right.
It has nothing at all to do with people clinging to old or familiar technology. It has to do with a decision made by the movie maker (not the audience) to go with this look. Running every movie at 60fps or higher will not automatically make any movie look better.
Ever see Lexx? It's shot at 50fps. (At least it looks like it, it might be 60, but I got the impression it was shot on PAL originally.) It looks strange. Looks cheap. Doctor Who was like that too. It was originally shot at 50 fps PAL, and was alright. No complaints about it. Though the reason for the lack of complaints is that Doctor Who was rather cheap and campy. But when the American Doctor Who movie came out at 24fps, it looked a great deal more dramatic. Like watching a movie. Not because it was degraded. Because it was more stable. I'm sure the added motion blur + less strobing helped with that as well.
"I haven't seen any studies that suggest there's any reason..."
Frankly, I don't think you've looked. You're so locked into the idea that people cling to old technology. You never seem to notice evidence all over that's contradicting you, namely every drama that's on TV today. ER is shot in high-definition. It could be running at 60 fps progressive. Nope, they chose 24. It doesn't look right when you have a drama at 60fps. Looks great for sports, the news, documentaries, etc. Just not drama.
"It's like people who don't like e-books because they don't have the smell and texture of paper!?!"
Apples to oranges. Most people aren't aware of the change in frame-rate, just that it looks different. It's like using candlelight to change the mood of the room. Though I suppose we should all do away with candles once for all and only use bright electric modern light?
Threaten to mention their website on Slashdot. I'm sure a lot of us would be happy to click the link a few times.
You're willing to accept your rationale but you can't handle the idea of the psychological aspects of watching slower frame-rate video? Events that happen in slow motion have no effect on people?
Suit yourself. I'd recommend, though, that you do a little independent study about animation techniques. That's not an insult or anything, but it would definitely provide some insight into this discussion.
" I'm not attached to either one for old sentimental reasons,...."
Sentimental? It's well extablished. Why do you think TVs, which are capable of 60 fps, have TV shows like the X-Files that run at 24?
"You simply need to get over it. Drama isn't a number, drama isn't crappy grainy film, drama is plot and character and acting."
I need to 'get over it'? Heh. I'm not the one obsessed with everything being super fast here.
""I feel raped."
a little overboard, i feel.
but it cant have been nice."
PSst, mods, that's not off-topic. "I feel raped" is how the dude expressed his feelings about the NYT article. This post was modded in error.
"Umm...who confuses "cr" with a "z"??? I don't think people are that out of it."
Welcome to the legal world. Actually, they probably shouldn't have brought up the whole zombie thing. If they had chosen cn instead of z, then they would have had a case. Abercnombie.com would definitely have been an attempt to confuse people. Instead, by making it say 'zombie', they reinforced the parody defense.
You're right, the claim that 'Aberzombie' wouldn't confuse anybody is ridiculous, especially considering they have it in big letters on their site. Chad did all the right things in making this parody site. I was particularly impressed that he bought his own stock photography.
Heh, you guys might find this funny. I was reading about the Register today and they had an interesting editorial about Hilary Rosen. Check it out here. I about died laughing when I read that.
"Seems they distribute music people actually want to - gasp - Buy... "
Jack Valenti really pissed me off by saying "There is no business model that can compete with free!" in reference to P2P trading of movies. What he doesn't understand is that people actually pay for services too as well as goods. Why would I spend an hour downloading an album I want if I can pay $10 to a website and download it in couple of minutes with guaranteed quality?
I'd love to ask him this: "Your office provides all the coffee you can drink, right? Do you go to Starbucks?"
"No 2GHZ Intel chip has the power to emulate a Cube, and would have a difficult time even handling the PS2 at acceptable speeds."
It doesn't need to emulate a GameCube or PS2, it just needs to play the games. Somebody could probably write a wrapper that takes commands from the GameCube code and translates them to the 3D accelerator. Seeing as how it's an ATI graphics processor on that machine, I don't think that's an impossible task. Though I do wonder if the PS2 would be as easy to port.
It's been done before with the Nintendo 64. Anybody remember UltraHLE? It worked on Pentium 2s. You just needed a Voodoo card. It didn't emulate the N64, it just used a wrapper to send commands to the Voodoo. Cool idea if you ask me.
"Lone Starr? Give up. You're at least third. One offtopic, One redundant. The mods obviously didn't like the movie."
Know what's funny? I read through the posts and didn't see any Spaceballs references. Didn't occur to me to set my threshold to -1. Heh.
In my defense, though, mine was delivered a little better. There's a difference between quoting a movie and imagining people saying stuff like that in real life.
"The last thing they saw was the outline of a Winnebago... "
You fucking copycat. That's the last time I share my funny posts with ya. Heh.
Anybody remember the Ninja Turtles coin-op game? That was a lot of fun to play with a friend. There was a whole slew of them. The Simpsons! Heh.
In this day and age of consoles with 4 controller ports, gotta admit I'm saddened that this genre has disappeared. You didn't need no stinking split-screen.
Fortunately, there is a Ninja Turtles game for the GameCube in the works.
"There's only one man in the universe who would DARE give me the raspberry..."