It's nice to see some judges can realise that a data set is not a program, I wonder how the previous decision really came about.
Perhaps, the way that you refer to "dataset" if it is just that.
One could easily argue, that any sort of logic that is used within a stored procedure within a database could be considered a "program." Where exactly does the line between database/stored procedure and program lie?
I would argue, any sort of data integrity checking done within a stored procedure in a database would constitute a "program" in the context they are arguing. That stored procedure gets changed, the entire integrity of the "dataset" then becomes suspect.
Granted, we are talking "Microsoft Access" here, and the complexity that one can create is somewhat limited when compared to MSSQL/MYSQL/Oracle/etc. but one could argue, that the first part, the "Microsoft" part could be reason enough to consider the entire process suspect, but given that aside does anyone else have a problem with this:
[FTFA] The GEMS-created mdb file can be opened using Microsoft Access. Data in the file can be manipulated. Password protection can be overwritten. The full functionally of the GEMS program of the GEMS program, however, cannot be utilized if the mdb file is opened in Microsoft Access. GEMS is necessary to utilize all of the election-related functions.
Ummm, so I can edit the data, overwrite passwords, but everything is ok, because GEMS is necessary to utilize all of the election-related functions. I'm glad they cleared that up. So I can edit the raw data, but not to worry, the GEMS software is required to utilized the election related functions. EXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!? GEMS makes use of that data to facilitate the election related functions [read: vote count with questionable data integrity]
I would not be comfortable with this. Thank god I'm Canadian, and I'm not eligible to vote in the US. I have my opinion(s), and in the US, my vote doesn't count, but it's not counted for a legal/proper reason; not due to some fail-able voting machine.
I swear to god I hate the civil service. Basically as a government employee your only job is to not rock the boat too hard. Take your 2 hr lunch breaks, leave early on fridays, take expensive training classes [that nobody in private sector gets to attend], attend one useless meeting after another, and take 4 years to do what a bright 16 yr old could do over a weekend. That's ok. Because, hey, you're in a union, god forbid you actually have accountability and performance metrics that mean anything...
Having being a civil servant in the past, I take great exception to your comments. In the 10 years I was with the provincial government, I was only able to attend one outside training session. Being in a smaller province, where training *rarely* came to, most training would require travel (typically to another province) which would never happen. I financed most of those out of my own pocket with no reimbursement. You make it sound like I had a free ride, and a free lunch, with all the extra toppings. It is not. I was refused to attend a conference in Vancouver that was specifically on what I was implementing within the department, because it was too "close" to Whistler/Blackcomb. WTF?!?!?!? The reason? The perception would be exactly the crap that you are spewing.
With regard to the union, they screwed me more than they ever helped me. Ever play the "temporary" position game before? They prevented me from getting the "job" as I didn't have the seniority. Nothing worse than filling a position for 8 months and having someone that is completely incompetent that I had to train for the position, all because they had "more time in." The preventing me from getting a better position, because I didn't have a "degree" that was required for the position, yet I was the one that trained the "degree people" for the position. Go figure eh? The union prevented me from being paid what I was worth because the position that I had, didn't reflect the duties I performed. None of the union positions were accurate in this regards. The union screwed me more than they ever protected me. Don't make them sound like they are the golden cup.
I have since gotten out of government, and went over to private sector, with a larger IT consultant company. This was no better, though I was able to get training very easily (x amount per year) and it didn't matter where it was (I attended something in Vegas, which would have never happened within gov't. While there were some benefits, working 12 hours, getting paid for 8, yet billing for the 12 got tiresome really quick.
Government, private sector, independent contractor doesn't really make a difference. In this consumerism driven society, with the corporate mentality to do more, more, more with less, less, less, is what drove me out of the IT industry. And don't get me started on the politics... Gov't or not, the politics are what really wreck things.
From your point of view, the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but look where the green grass is; Odds are it's right over the leaking septic tank. Make sure you check the ground before you start grazing.
I'm not saying there aren't some that have ways to abuse the system, but it's not as common as you portray. There are projects out there that are just as bad, except you don't hear about them. Banks, credit card companies, and private sector is just as bad, except, you don't hear about it, except through the network with people within the fields. It doesn't get out there publicly.
I've since turned my back on the entirety of the whole IT industry as a career. There is absolutely no enjoyment in it anymore. As a hobby, I still love it though.
Your spewing the FUD of a stereotype that perhaps may have some truth to it. But that truth you are spewing is the exception, rather than the rule. There are good people that work within the civil sector. And have worked on both sides, one is no better than the other.
Well, when TinyURL starts using popups, I'll really stop using it, and many others too I guess. Then another site with similar function will open without popups. So I guess that isn't really a problem.
Funny, I remember people saying they would stop smoking when cigarettes when they went up to a $1.00 a pack.. What do they run now? $7-$10 now? And how many people that said that, are still smoking now?
The problem is, it's become such a accepted practice now (accepted practice != best practice). To move away from it? This becomes very difficult. Much the same way that Windows has become a staple in the corporate world. It's not that there aren't better solutions to choose from, the problem becomes that it is so tightly entrenched into our practices. To try and move to something different becomes very costly and difficult.
The shortened URL services have very much grow the same issues. You end up with a single point of failure (or a single point to do evil from) and because it's become so entrenched into our practices, when the times comes, will it be that easy to stop using it?
And how is this different than any other of the crap that we are "spoon fed" on the news?
The mass media (and news reporting) are owned by non-journalistic mega-conglomerates. Isn't it refreshing to get a different view even if it is spun in the complete opposite direction for a change? Why is this a bad thing?
Why did 80% of the people that used Fox News as their primary source of news believe that there were WMDs in Iraq, while only 16% of people that used NPR/PBS as their primary news source believed the same thing? [CQ Researcher, Journalism Under Fire]
If you say that MM is out for no one other than himself, you can apply that to 99% of everyone in this society, even the holier than thou Oprah is a prime example.
Depending on what your meaning? I role play good old DnD on a weekly basis.
Joined this group back in '98, as the baby of the group (was 28 at the time) and was quite intimidated. This group has been together since basic DnD came out (about '74 or so)
So there are a few that do roll the dice in real time and real life...
You hated it from the beginning, got paid next to nothing, and came home smelling like grease every night?
To tell the truth, at times I would have preferred that. Once your day was done, you were done.
My point I was making, was my *career* in IT was something I enjoyed. I was excited about the duties, implementing new technology, being on that cutting edge of the industry, I actually enjoyed and looked forward going to work.
But my other point was, the career that I had turned into a *job*. It turned into something that I was unable to find any enjoyment in. The whole corporate politics has changed in the industry. Do more, more, more, with less, less, less. I went to absolutely hating my job and actually longed for the days that I did work food service. How nice it would have been to finish your shift and be done with it. No emergency phone calls of executive unable to get to their email because they forgot to plug there laptop in.
And when I first started my food service job, I really did enjoy it. I was unemployed for several months, with no success finding a job. So I was happy for being able to work (even if it was what was considered a *crap* job)
So the fact is, it's irrelevant if I hated the job to begin with or not. You hate a job to begin with, you know you are getting out of it. It's a transition so to speak. Starting with a job that you love, and then turning to hate it, to the point where you no longer want anything do with it, is different, although one could argue that it is just a longer transition period.
Lots of pay doesn't make that much difference if you are in a job that you don't enjoy. I was pulling a respectable $75k+ (at the time) and if I was offered $120k or even $150k to stay, I wouldn't have taken it. When I was younger I would have jumped at it, but after I got older, I realized it's more about the enjoyment of the job rather than the pay. Funny how that is isn't it?
I experienced the exact same thing after being in IT for 15 years... I've done a complete 180, and have gone back to school and am going for my Psychology Degree and I am loving every minute of it. Should have done it 4 years ago to tell the truth... I just lost the passion for IT that I used to have. My career became a "job" the same way that someone working at McDonalds serving food would feel about their job.
But then again, it's not really that uncommon to go for a career change... My girlfriend went from 20 years of being a cardiology RN to being a tattoo artist.
Both of us are happy and enjoying life again.
Just find something that you are interested in, and go for it. Sometimes is means lifestyle changes, moving to a smaller place, perhaps a smaller car, etc., but it does let you rediscover the important things in life. And I tell you, it's nice not having that cellphone/pager going off all the time.
Best decision I ever made, and the my girlfriend feels the same way.
Yet the vice-president can shoot someone accidentally, yet doesn't get fired, and this guy does for only talking about purchasing a gun?!?!?!?!?? WTF? Am I the only one that has an issue with this?
What's next? I'm not permitted to eat a burrito now because I might pass gas, and be guilty of potential terrorist threat for distributing bad smelling "gas"????
As a Canadian citizen, I've been denied entry a couple times to the US. So don't get the idea that it's just "other countries" doing it to US citizens. All for the reason is I stumbled on an answer to a question that made me think WTF? A three hour lineup in immigration? I WISH it was that long for me... I spent 6hr in line...
And guess what, no convictions, or any other reason to be denied, other than the customs officer was having a bad personal life. It's sad when your asked, "Why are you here?!?"
One other time was because the funds that I had on my "PERSON" wasn't enough... I said give me 10 minutes, went to a ATM, took out $800 and said, "Good enough?"
This is what the US wanted, tighter border controls....Borders have two sides. It's not as nice when *your* *rules* are reciprocated and bite you in the ass. The US has no right to complain.
Cheers,
Xyst
Microsoft for having such security/spyware issues?
The school systems administrator for not doing their job?
The school for not having there filtration software up to date?
The school administration for not doing their due diligence when choosing there hardware and operating systems?
The children's parents for not teaching their children to turn away from that sort of stuff?
The children's teacher (after all she was a substitute) for not teaching the students to turn away from that sort of stuff?
The church for making the all church types such prudes.
Her lawyer because (s)he seems like an clueless idiot and has no idea what spy ware is and what it can do?
The judge for not providing a "FAIR" trial.
The government for cutting education funding so much that the school can't renew there filtration license.
Do I need to go on?!?!?!?!??!?! Who else could we blame?
Cheers,
Xyst....
---
This comment is not meant to be taken seriously.
The day I need to give a fingerprint to enter the USA, is the day I will no longer enter the USA. Currently I'm going to school in the US, and I have informed my g/f (yes, I read slashdot, and I have a g/f) who is a US citizen, that if her government requires fingerprints, I will not re-enter the USA. Plain and simple.
Perhaps it's politics, but it my mind, it's the principle. Innocent until proven guilty? Doesn't seem like that anymore. I think "Assumed to be a terrorist, until proven guilty" is more accurate.
nothing felt better than them calling me back asking about some issues. It felt really good telling them that I'm now an contractor and I get paid what I'm worth now (which is 3.5x what you paid me). Those are my rates, minimum one day (8 hours.)
Needless to say, they were pissed off, and asked about the loyality they deserved for the previous two years they had given me. I just laughed, and said "2 years of empty promises for a permanent position? What about those two years of loyality from me, only to be notified that I won't be getting that permanent position I was promised time and time again? And worst off, you didn't have the balls to tell me to my face, and you gave me notice via email? Hell now that I'm thinking about it, I think my rates just went up for your site...
It was nice getting 8 hours with of pay for a 5 minute fix. And the real kicker for them? It was in the documentation I did up. They just chose not to read it.
I received my notice that my position was not going to be renewed (after countless promises that it would be) via email, back in 1997... They even had the gall to request that I schedule my time, to train my replacement.
Talk about a kick in the pants. Very deflating.
But, I'm *NOT* bitter! This is just going to become more common. The same way that a PFO (please f*#k off) letters are rarely sent out nowadays.
Slashdot Mirror
This is great, now if we can just get the MPAA onboard.
Perhaps, the way that you refer to "dataset" if it is just that.
One could easily argue, that any sort of logic that is used within a stored procedure within a database could be considered a "program." Where exactly does the line between database/stored procedure and program lie?
I would argue, any sort of data integrity checking done within a stored procedure in a database would constitute a "program" in the context they are arguing. That stored procedure gets changed, the entire integrity of the "dataset" then becomes suspect.
Granted, we are talking "Microsoft Access" here, and the complexity that one can create is somewhat limited when compared to MSSQL/MYSQL/Oracle/etc. but one could argue, that the first part, the "Microsoft" part could be reason enough to consider the entire process suspect, but given that aside does anyone else have a problem with this:
Ummm, so I can edit the data, overwrite passwords, but everything is ok, because GEMS is necessary to utilize all of the election-related functions. I'm glad they cleared that up. So I can edit the raw data, but not to worry, the GEMS software is required to utilized the election related functions. EXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!? GEMS makes use of that data to facilitate the election related functions [read: vote count with questionable data integrity]
I would not be comfortable with this. Thank god I'm Canadian, and I'm not eligible to vote in the US. I have my opinion(s), and in the US, my vote doesn't count, but it's not counted for a legal/proper reason; not due to some fail-able voting machine.
Cheers,
Xyst
Having being a civil servant in the past, I take great exception to your comments. In the 10 years I was with the provincial government, I was only able to attend one outside training session. Being in a smaller province, where training *rarely* came to, most training would require travel (typically to another province) which would never happen. I financed most of those out of my own pocket with no reimbursement. You make it sound like I had a free ride, and a free lunch, with all the extra toppings. It is not. I was refused to attend a conference in Vancouver that was specifically on what I was implementing within the department, because it was too "close" to Whistler/Blackcomb. WTF?!?!?!? The reason? The perception would be exactly the crap that you are spewing.
With regard to the union, they screwed me more than they ever helped me. Ever play the "temporary" position game before? They prevented me from getting the "job" as I didn't have the seniority. Nothing worse than filling a position for 8 months and having someone that is completely incompetent that I had to train for the position, all because they had "more time in." The preventing me from getting a better position, because I didn't have a "degree" that was required for the position, yet I was the one that trained the "degree people" for the position. Go figure eh? The union prevented me from being paid what I was worth because the position that I had, didn't reflect the duties I performed. None of the union positions were accurate in this regards. The union screwed me more than they ever protected me. Don't make them sound like they are the golden cup.
I have since gotten out of government, and went over to private sector, with a larger IT consultant company. This was no better, though I was able to get training very easily (x amount per year) and it didn't matter where it was (I attended something in Vegas, which would have never happened within gov't. While there were some benefits, working 12 hours, getting paid for 8, yet billing for the 12 got tiresome really quick.
Government, private sector, independent contractor doesn't really make a difference. In this consumerism driven society, with the corporate mentality to do more, more, more with less, less, less, is what drove me out of the IT industry. And don't get me started on the politics... Gov't or not, the politics are what really wreck things.
From your point of view, the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but look where the green grass is; Odds are it's right over the leaking septic tank. Make sure you check the ground before you start grazing.
I'm not saying there aren't some that have ways to abuse the system, but it's not as common as you portray. There are projects out there that are just as bad, except you don't hear about them. Banks, credit card companies, and private sector is just as bad, except, you don't hear about it, except through the network with people within the fields. It doesn't get out there publicly.
I've since turned my back on the entirety of the whole IT industry as a career. There is absolutely no enjoyment in it anymore. As a hobby, I still love it though.
Your spewing the FUD of a stereotype that perhaps may have some truth to it. But that truth you are spewing is the exception, rather than the rule. There are good people that work within the civil sector. And have worked on both sides, one is no better than the other.
Cheers,
Xyst
Funny, I remember people saying they would stop smoking when cigarettes when they went up to a $1.00 a pack.. What do they run now? $7-$10 now? And how many people that said that, are still smoking now?
The problem is, it's become such a accepted practice now (accepted practice != best practice). To move away from it? This becomes very difficult. Much the same way that Windows has become a staple in the corporate world. It's not that there aren't better solutions to choose from, the problem becomes that it is so tightly entrenched into our practices. To try and move to something different becomes very costly and difficult.
The shortened URL services have very much grow the same issues. You end up with a single point of failure (or a single point to do evil from) and because it's become so entrenched into our practices, when the times comes, will it be that easy to stop using it?
Cheers,
Xyst
With global warming the way it is, half the drive for revolution is gone... How are they going to get rid of the starting part remains to be seen.
tongue in cheep people, tongue in cheek...
Cheers,
Xyst
So I wonder how the the FAA feels about this? After all such wireless and electronic devices affect the navigation and guidance systems in planes.
Hmmm, so no sudden influx of plane crashes. Those lying B@s7@rds!!!!!
CheersXyst
ps: yes I do know it's all a load of hooey that electronic devices must be turned off.
Just wait, I can see it now...
NEWS JUST IN! Dinosaurs not killed by giant meteor but by 8 million year old bacteria.. News at 11
Newly listed: 8 million year old bacteria now on terrorist watch list.... News at 11
DHS reports that terrorism is linked to 8 million year old bacteria... News at 11
New 8 million year old bacteria can eliminate dependency on oi~d@#$A
NO CARRIER
You know, the part that says you can't sue us, even if our products caused you damage? Even from gross negligence or our complete stupidity? LOL
CheersXyst
And how is this different than any other of the crap that we are "spoon fed" on the news?
The mass media (and news reporting) are owned by non-journalistic mega-conglomerates. Isn't it refreshing to get a different view even if it is spun in the complete opposite direction for a change? Why is this a bad thing?
Why did 80% of the people that used Fox News as their primary source of news believe that there were WMDs in Iraq, while only 16% of people that used NPR/PBS as their primary news source believed the same thing? [CQ Researcher, Journalism Under Fire]
If you say that MM is out for no one other than himself, you can apply that to 99% of everyone in this society, even the holier than thou Oprah is a prime example.
Cheers,
Xyst
Again, proof that it is easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission....
Depending on what your meaning? I role play good old DnD on a weekly basis.
Joined this group back in '98, as the baby of the group (was 28 at the time) and was quite intimidated. This group has been together since basic DnD came out (about '74 or so)
So there are a few that do roll the dice in real time and real life...
Cheers,
Xyst
What is the call that changed a life?
call -151Close, a couple additional bits of code after entering the monitor are what changed my life ...
B942:18 60BAAA:00
Dos checksums? We don't need no stinky checksums.....!
Then again, this was a pretty useful one also...
FA62:4C 59 FFmade you reset key take you directly to the monitor
What about Don Worths "Beneath Apple Dos." What a fantastic reference!
Cheers,
Xyst
To tell the truth, at times I would have preferred that. Once your day was done, you were done.
My point I was making, was my *career* in IT was something I enjoyed. I was excited about the duties, implementing new technology, being on that cutting edge of the industry, I actually enjoyed and looked forward going to work.
But my other point was, the career that I had turned into a *job*. It turned into something that I was unable to find any enjoyment in. The whole corporate politics has changed in the industry. Do more, more, more, with less, less, less. I went to absolutely hating my job and actually longed for the days that I did work food service. How nice it would have been to finish your shift and be done with it. No emergency phone calls of executive unable to get to their email because they forgot to plug there laptop in.
And when I first started my food service job, I really did enjoy it. I was unemployed for several months, with no success finding a job. So I was happy for being able to work (even if it was what was considered a *crap* job)
So the fact is, it's irrelevant if I hated the job to begin with or not. You hate a job to begin with, you know you are getting out of it. It's a transition so to speak. Starting with a job that you love, and then turning to hate it, to the point where you no longer want anything do with it, is different, although one could argue that it is just a longer transition period.
Lots of pay doesn't make that much difference if you are in a job that you don't enjoy. I was pulling a respectable $75k+ (at the time) and if I was offered $120k or even $150k to stay, I wouldn't have taken it. When I was younger I would have jumped at it, but after I got older, I realized it's more about the enjoyment of the job rather than the pay. Funny how that is isn't it?
Cheers,
Xyst
I experienced the exact same thing after being in IT for 15 years... I've done a complete 180, and have gone back to school and am going for my Psychology Degree and I am loving every minute of it. Should have done it 4 years ago to tell the truth... I just lost the passion for IT that I used to have. My career became a "job" the same way that someone working at McDonalds serving food would feel about their job.
But then again, it's not really that uncommon to go for a career change... My girlfriend went from 20 years of being a cardiology RN to being a tattoo artist.
Both of us are happy and enjoying life again.
Just find something that you are interested in, and go for it. Sometimes is means lifestyle changes, moving to a smaller place, perhaps a smaller car, etc., but it does let you rediscover the important things in life. And I tell you, it's nice not having that cellphone/pager going off all the time.
Best decision I ever made, and the my girlfriend feels the same way.
Cheers,
Xyst
Yet the vice-president can shoot someone accidentally, yet doesn't get fired, and this guy does for only talking about purchasing a gun?!?!?!?!?? WTF? Am I the only one that has an issue with this?
What's next? I'm not permitted to eat a burrito now because I might pass gas, and be guilty of potential terrorist threat for distributing bad smelling "gas"????
What a world we live in
Cheers,
Xyst
At risk of dating myself.... what about Wilderness Adventure on the old APPLE ][??
But of course the most important was forgotten. www.slashdot.org
Cheers,Xyst
DAMN! Where are my mod points??? Need to moderate the parent insightful!
Isn't that how it usually goes?
Cheers,
Xyst
FP??
Cheers,
Xyst
As a Canadian citizen, I've been denied entry a couple times to the US. So don't get the idea that it's just "other countries" doing it to US citizens. All for the reason is I stumbled on an answer to a question that made me think WTF? A three hour lineup in immigration? I WISH it was that long for me... I spent 6hr in line... And guess what, no convictions, or any other reason to be denied, other than the customs officer was having a bad personal life. It's sad when your asked, "Why are you here?!?" One other time was because the funds that I had on my "PERSON" wasn't enough... I said give me 10 minutes, went to a ATM, took out $800 and said, "Good enough?" This is what the US wanted, tighter border controls....Borders have two sides. It's not as nice when *your* *rules* are reciprocated and bite you in the ass. The US has no right to complain. Cheers, Xyst
The school systems administrator for not doing their job?
The school for not having there filtration software up to date?
The school administration for not doing their due diligence when choosing there hardware and operating systems?
The children's parents for not teaching their children to turn away from that sort of stuff?
The children's teacher (after all she was a substitute) for not teaching the students to turn away from that sort of stuff?
The church for making the all church types such prudes.
Her lawyer because (s)he seems like an clueless idiot and has no idea what spy ware is and what it can do?
The judge for not providing a "FAIR" trial.
The government for cutting education funding so much that the school can't renew there filtration license.
Do I need to go on?!?!?!?!??!?! Who else could we blame?
Cheers,Xyst....
---
This comment is not meant to be taken seriously.
Not a US citizen here either, but Canadian....
The day I need to give a fingerprint to enter the USA, is the day I will no longer enter the USA. Currently I'm going to school in the US, and I have informed my g/f (yes, I read slashdot, and I have a g/f) who is a US citizen, that if her government requires fingerprints, I will not re-enter the USA. Plain and simple.
Perhaps it's politics, but it my mind, it's the principle. Innocent until proven guilty? Doesn't seem like that anymore. I think "Assumed to be a terrorist, until proven guilty" is more accurate.
Xyst
been there, did that..
nothing felt better than them calling me back asking about some issues. It felt really good telling them that I'm now an contractor and I get paid what I'm worth now (which is 3.5x what you paid me). Those are my rates, minimum one day (8 hours.)
Needless to say, they were pissed off, and asked about the loyality they deserved for the previous two years they had given me. I just laughed, and said "2 years of empty promises for a permanent position? What about those two years of loyality from me, only to be notified that I won't be getting that permanent position I was promised time and time again? And worst off, you didn't have the balls to tell me to my face, and you gave me notice via email? Hell now that I'm thinking about it, I think my rates just went up for your site...
It was nice getting 8 hours with of pay for a 5 minute fix. And the real kicker for them? It was in the documentation I did up. They just chose not to read it.
Payback is a bitch
Cheers,
Xyst
I received my notice that my position was not going to be renewed (after countless promises that it would be) via email, back in 1997... They even had the gall to request that I schedule my time, to train my replacement.
Talk about a kick in the pants. Very deflating.
But, I'm *NOT* bitter! This is just going to become more common. The same way that a PFO (please f*#k off) letters are rarely sent out nowadays.
Xyst