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US Visitor Fingerprints To Be (Perhaps) Stored by FBI
stair69 writes "Since 2004 many visitors to the United States have had 2 fingerprints taken under the US-VISIT scheme. Now there are new plans to extend this scheme — under the proposal all 10 fingerprints will be taken, and they will be stored permanently on the FBI's criminal fingerprint database. The fingerprints will also be made available to police forces in other countries. The scheme is due to be introduced by the end of 2008, but it will be trialled in 10 of the bigger airports initially." Of course, it is worth pointing out that given the recent change in Congress, I suspect that a number of countries will get a "bye" on this round,
I am a US citizen.
(or am I just fooling myself)
Fricken scary.
I guess they just haven't learned the difference between quantity of information, and its overall quality. They're dealing with a very low signal-to-noise ratio when 'plans' like this are implemented, and that in itself will become a major impediment to dealing with any true threats. I can't help but wonder if this is coming from the Democrats or the Republicans. If it's the Dems, I'm thoroughly disappointed - I thought the idea was to *reverse* the damage done by the Republican party, not add to it.
Welcome to the home of the suspected criminals, land of the bold (if they dare to speak up).
How does it feel being considered a criminal by default? Heck, in my day job I teach people to treat every input with suspicion and every unknown as if it were malicious, but at least I'm speaking about data, not humans!
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
1984
...to never ever vistit the 'land of the free'. I wouldn't do it currently because of all 'security' measures allready in place. But it's reassuring to find out I was right about that.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? What countries? And why? And, for that matter, how is congress going to get involved at that level of detail...especially since they're already claiming they can't even do anything to stop Bush from escalating the war, despite the fact that by most accounts they were elected to do just that?
Was part of this remark clipped off (note the trailing comma) or am I missing some interpretation that is less senseless than the obvious?
--MarkusQ
I would never subject myself to this in your country, so please don't subject yourself to this in mine.
Fingerprint databases are a very useful crime-fighting tool. The only objection to fingerprinting everyone (somewhere in elementary school) is the indignity of (mis)treating every citizen as a (potential) criminal.
Americans, however, are surprisingly tolerant of the government-imposed indignities — judging, for example, by their willingness to stand barefeet and beltless (belt's buckles are often metallic, you see) on the dirty floor in front of the TSA officers... Removing your footwear for inspection used to be optional (you could elect to be searched instead), but is now required since no one was objecting — except for a few freaks, like yours truly.
Fingerprinting non-citizens will not even raise the proverbial eye-brow of the nation...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Anyone have a list of airports? I need to put them on my personal no-fly list, along with the airports participating in the "trusted passenger" trial (e.g., MCO).
Of course, it is worth pointing out that given the recent change in Congress, I suspect that a number of countries will get a "bye" on this round.
I was under the impression that the recent change in congress was motivated by the people of this fine nation tired of America breaking all the rules of decentcy, rights of the people, and other things of that nature... So how would some countries get a "bye"? What is a "bye"? Is it a general banning? If so, most Democratic Party methods of increasing money and lowering debt is raising tarrifs and increasing tourism... Banning the richest, although terrorist prone, nations is not something they would want to do.
Or is it that with the recent change in Congress, this bill will go "bye"? That America will no longer rubber-stamp a Big Brother nation into being...
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
I've heard stories of other countries fingerprinting Americans, and only Americans, upon entry.
It's almost like there are consequences to actions. Makes you wonder what they are gunna do about our little demolition derby in Iraq.
I wonder how many other countries will follow suit, that is, fingerprint visitors from the US and store their fingerprints and personal data in their criminal database. Brasil already fingerprints and photographs US citizens (and only US citizens) visiting Brasil...
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
I had little choice but to visit the US when I was offered the job of my dreams. Here I am, my two index fingers and thumb prints in who knows what govt databases. With my country now in the EU and my gf back home... I wonder what on earth I'm doing here, but I'm beginning to like it in a strange way.
If this goes ahead, before visiting the USA I want to know:
1) What is the chance of a false positive with this system? i.e. what is the chance that it might think I am someone they are looking for?
2) What is the procedure then for someone who is not an American citizen?
I can imagine what hell you might go through if this system identifies you as a wanted terrorist - not a chance I want to take, even if the odds of it happening are very low.
They'd be trying to force ID cards on the whole population, and part of the information they collect for your ID cards are you fingerprints that are then passed on to the police. (They also fingerprint kids in school here, and they would have to be passed onto the police too).
Think yourself lucky you got the Bush part of the Blair Bush combo.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
And I've spent more than a year living there. However, I'll be damned if I'll set foot in a country that brands me as a criminal the instant I step off the plane. It's no surprise the RIAA/MPAA comes from the same place... It's bad enough with the ridiculous video branding me when I just bought the damn movie.
Paranoia is nice under some circumstances, but this is just ridiculous. Like they actually think it'll do any good? It'll be really nice to know who blew up WTC v2.0 after the fact, yeah...
As it is now, I avoid travelling to the US -- No, I don't appear or sound middle eastern -- I just don't like the way things are headed south of the border, and I will not spend a single tourist dollar in a country that will illegally deport a fellow Canadian citizen to be tortured in Syria for a year.
:-) I tend to lean right -- but this police state crap has got to stop.)
At the moment, I will travel on business -- but if they want my fingerprints for a criminal database -- then I will not travel to the US at all. I will not consent to being fingerprinted for criminal database purposes just because I'm on a business trip.
(And I'm not one of the left leaning bleeding heart liberal types
Ian Ameline
It's bad enough that the FBI might want to store your prints permanently in a criminal database without cause, but to then share that information with who knows how many other countries?
How is any individual supposed to protect themselves when you can't even keep track of who has your fingerprints?
Every day, with each successive restriction on our freedoms, we inch closer to this:
Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save that he had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
I don't know in what form, or when, but it will come.
The really depressing thing is that most everyone will eagerly take it. You can bet it will be marketed as "for your safety" and/or "for the children."
'Scuse me, I need to write a letter to a friend. Don't worry, big brother^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGeorge Bush will make sure it contains no crimethink^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hterrorist plots.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Just use a belt sander with 80 grit paper on it.
:)
Turn it on, place fingers on sand paper, hold as long as you can stand it. Repeat until prints are gone. No problem.
Finger prints are only 1/32 of an in deep. It is dead skin and serves no real purpose. I started sanding mine off several years ago when the state went to mandatory fingerprinting to get a drivers license. It is easy and the look on the persons face when you say "I don't have finger prints!" is just something else.
The other thing you can do is to cover the tips of your fingers with super glue. It works quite well and does not come off for some time.
The only objection to fingerprinting everyone (somewhere in elementary school) is the indignity of (mis)treating every citizen as a (potential) criminal.
But isn't everyone a "potential" criminal?
My only problem with fingerprinting is the chance that I will get ink on my shirt. As long as it applies to everyone, there really shouldn't be an indignity from this, but I understand how some can feel dirty after going through airport security. It may also help if the fingerprint database is not referred to as a "criminal database". I don't know if it was named that by the article or the FBI itself.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
I'm a freedom nut. If there is no fence, no armed guard or dog...I'll roam wherever I damn well please.
If someone wants to enter into my house, I must know them. If I don't know them they better damned well be authorized. I believe countries should be able to do the same.
I don't like this mind you: Data collection is annoying at best. While Visa(r) and my bank know what I eat, where I shop, how often I drive and what that I'm single (dating services require credit cards).
So, perhaps the question is this: As the world is flat and getting smaller, more people will want to visit, move, work and bomb the United States, what do (they) do?
I want to know if it's a crime to permentantly remove your fingerprints. As I am traveling next month to a not-US friendly country, I am going to have to play by their rules. I'm fine with that. It's their house.
> My fingerprints are in at least one government database
> (for non-criminal reasons). It doesn't bother me.
> When I decide to rob banks or kill people, then I'll be worried.
Remember that fingerprints in the database are stored as encoded strings describing the location of some branching points in the ridge patterns. Essentially a hash function.
Note that the data on which the hash is constructed is subject to scaling and rotation of the captured image. Note that selection of the points is hard in some people's patterns (because there may be unusually many branch points.
Now note that we are addding a very large amount of new prints to be processed, of which a much lower proportion will ever be needed than in the previous population of the database. There will be extreme pressure to do this quickly and cheaply with less-skilled operators. This will lead to many false matches.
We already have many cases of false matches leading to arrest of innocent people when fingerprint data is shared between FBI and Interpol (made worse by some differences in technical standards between different police organizations. And because most of the victims of these false positives will not be US voters, fixing the problems will not be a high priority.
If you really believe that mass processing of huge fingerprint databases is feasible with acceptably low error rates, you should advocate that a full set of prints for the FBI database should be taken with every US driver's license application. This would have enormous benefits if every fingerprint found at a crime scene could easily be matched. By raising the chance of solving crimes by an order of magnitude, it would create an enormous incentive for people not to commit crimes. But I don't know anyone who trusts the system enough to want this to be done.
http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren .xml?language=en
If you decide to speak out in the future about political indecencies and thousands of people have access to your fingerprint records with sufficient motives to quash your voice, then will you be worried?
I just read that summary to a couple of my colleagues, and "WTF is going on over there!" was their shared response. None of us will be going near the US from now on.
From the article you linked: "In order to fake a fingerprint, one needs an original first."
- The database entry isn't an image of my finger print
- Anybody who wants to see what my fingerprint looks like can lift a print anywhere I've been
Bigtime Consulting - "We're the best because we cost the most"
Under the US "guilty until you can prove you are innocent" policies you spend the next few days locked up, your house is searched, your computers confiscated and sent to the computer forensics labs, your photo is front page on all the papers, your house is shown online using Google maps and your family have no-where to live. Your business goes bust and even when they release you your reputation is destroyed. No one beleives you any more.... and worse case scenario... what if you dont have an aliby for that time and its a high profile murder and the mayor wants swift justice? This all happened recently in the UK and happens often in the US. Okay you may be innocent and never plan on commiting any crimes but you'd be naive to think that the above doesnt happen regularly to innocent people in the Big Brother countries such as the US and the UK!
I hope that after a decade or so without another attack, we can keep the good border security and finally repeal some of the more obnoxious domestic laws.
-b.
We have every right to be indignant! These types of actions are actions taken by non-free governments. Our government's main role is to preserve our rights, not catch criminals. While these are not mutually exclusive concepts, it hardly makes sense to encroach on our rights in order to protect our rights.
It is not our job to make the government's job easier, so why should I give up my privacy? As a non-criminal citizen, the government has no business copying my fingerprints. There is actually a negative value in taking my prints for any legitimate use, since it will increase the noise in the database. (So really, we're giving up privacy for the illusion of safety. It doesn't take an economist to realize that's a bad trade.)
Yes my fingerprints are also in a U.S. government database (also for non-criminal reasons). It was a justifiable reason so it didn't bother me. But why is it worrisome in general to have our data in so many databases? Because:
-Abuse of system. The data is there, so someone could abuse it and run checks they are not supposed to.
-False positives. Once you're in the system, you're a candidate for showing up in some searches, even if you're not actually the match.
-Privacy. It's an intangible thing, but somehow knowing that information on you is being recorded is just uncomfortable and an invasion of your freedoms.
Of course we understand that for some reasons we need to have these databases anyway. It seems reasonable that a convicted criminal's prints should be put in a database. Also for high security situations it's a necessary safeguard.
However everytime we expand these databases without a highly justifiable reason, we are infringing on the privacy and liberty of people (even if just a little bit) and open ourselves to potential problems. The "if you have nothing to hide" argument doesn't work. After all, we all have things to "hide", but if they are not illegal then the government should stay out.
With the previous initiative, apparently 2 of 19 hijackers in the 9/11 tragedy could have been caught.
With this new improved initiative, maybe they could have caught 5 of the 19... Wow. That will clearly to put an end to 'domestic terrorism'.
"- Anybody who wants to see what my fingerprint looks like can lift a print anywhere I've been"
Also true for your DNA, so putting that in a database is OK then?
I travel from Europe to the US on a regular basis (once a month) for work. It's getting worse and worse. They track everything about you. I get held up when trying to enter. They're asking me more and more pointless questions. Like where do you work, what kind of work do you do, when will you going back, when was the last time you visited, where do you stay. I can't book any internal US flights from Europe anymore, since they can't verify my European credit card anymore (this started last month). Welcome to the US, land of the guilty until proven innocent.
At some point I'm not going to put up with this Bullcrap anymore. I'm just going to stay in Europe. And you can forget about my business.
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
Hey, they're collecting the fingerprints of non-citizens. I got no problem with this.
The repeated claims that this is eroding our rights is, in a word, silly.
The first is Chertoff's assertion that thi will deter the "unknown terrorist." If they are unknown, then we probably don't have their finger prints. The second was the addition of the word "crime" along side terrorism. First, not everything that is a crime in one country is a crime in another. For example, it's against the law to spout Nazi propagand in Germany, but not a crime to do so in the US. Who's standard would we apply when determining someone is a criminal? Would we arrest and detain Chinese dissidents at the airport because China said they're "criminals"? Given the volume of data, even a very low incidence of false positives may result in the detention of hundreds of innocent people.
Leave the gun, take the cannoli -- Clemenza, The Godfather
As well it shouldn't. Before we let a random person into our country, we need to verify his identity to make sure he's not a criminal or terrorist. Biometrics are one way to do this since documents can and will be forged. There are a lot of people who hate us, perhaps justifiably. Given this, we need to protect ourselves. Border security is one of the least intrusive ways to do this compared to domestic spying and surveillance. Given a tight border, there'll be (in theory) much less of a need for Draconian domestic laws.
-b.
I've always wanted to go and the opportunity arises frequently through work. I'll consent to fingerprinting if I'm ever arrested for a crime, unless visiting the US is a crime then I'll not be consenting.
It's worse than that. If that happens to me and I use a taxi and come up as a false positive, being a non US citizen and since the abolition of Habeus Corpus for non US citizens, I can be locked up and will have no right to defence at all.
so my prints, along with the last 20 fares, are on the door handle... what about the steering wheel, gear selector etc? what about evidence on the victims body? murder weapon etc? sorry, you arent going to be put in jail for murder on fingerprint evidence alone. even a free lawyer could defend that case.
always mosh clockwise
This is a major breach of privacy. Its not so much that I care about them taking my fingerprints and storing it in a database. Its about sharing the information with other countries. Is this to say that without my prior knowledge and consent, that most any country would / /could have my fingerprints on file?
I'm equally concerned about false accusations. There is ample case history of fingerprint and DNA mismatches in the US and Canada abroad (mostly due to really sloppy procedures). I'd rather they use the motive, opportunity and pyhsical proximity stuff before just looking everything up in a database. I'd rather avoid the media attention and stress of being on trial just being on trial.
Also true for your DNA, so putting that in a database is OK then?
Yes. And it is already (I was in the Air Force, they took blood for the express purpose of using it to identify me).
Bigtime Consulting - "We're the best because we cost the most"
Fingerprinting non-citizens will not even raise the proverbial eye-brow of the nation...
And don't forget, it's only the terrorists who have anything to worry about, according to the article: 'We will have a world in which any terrorist who has ever been in a safe house or has ever been in a training camp is going to ask himself or herself this question: have I ever left a fingerprint anywhere?' Chertoff said.
After all, everyone who has ever been in a building or location that is later identified as a "safe house" or "training camp" by the utterly infalible authorities is obviously a terrorist, so what possible objection could there be?
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
You guys can have your bloody country, soon no-one will want to visit and you won't be welcome anywhere else either. Increasing your isolation is hardly the way to decrease the chance of screwing up on something like Iraq again. Of all the places in the world, the US is most in need of a better perpective of its place in the world. I hardly think this will help.
In some ways, this shift from 2 fingerprintes taken, to all 10, is a relief. Previously, terrorists were forced to only use 4 fingers on each hand, in a sort of 'pinky out' high tea fashion (although with their pointing finger, not pinky). This resulted in hazardous RSI conditions which crippled the more active terrorists. For those skeptics reading this, try just hacking into an NSA account, picking a lock, or even spinning a safe combination dial without using your pointing fingers.
Feel the pain? There you have it, RSI. Now, under this new scheme, at least the terrorists can relax and use all 10 fingers, knowing there is no more false security in those missing 8 records to enjoy. And the US will benefit-- I anticipate that there will be no more class action suits against the US to deal with the former health crisis due to 2-finger exception techniques.
That said, as a taxpayer I assume the gathering of all 10, instead of just 2, will only incur a moderate 5x cost in upgrading airports and training personel. A bargain!
A.
Well, maybe this time they will integrate databases and realize, for the 6th year, that I am not a US Citizen. Maybe they will stop sending me Jury Duty requests and will also stop sending me Elections related ads and documents, including requests for me to register to vote, which I can't because I am not a citizen.
Lawyers are only for citizens. All aliens can be locked up forever without ever seeing a lawyer or a judge.
> -Privacy. It's an intangible thing, but somehow knowing that information on
> you is being recorded is just uncomfortable and an invasion of your freedoms.
The problem is indeed here. It is called a shadow of yourself in the databases of governments and institutions. The amount of data that is collected and correlated is by no means a good representation of the person. Your shadow identity is something you cannot influence. However, decisions are taken based on it. This is the really scary thing.
Sorry sir, you cannot come in. Why? You are a risk factor. Why? Your profile indicates it. What have I done wrong? Nothing sir.
I think the point is, once the mud is slung no amount of cleaning is ever going to take it off. The criminal prosecution system has stopped becoming about "justice" and has become more about assigning blame and wrapping up the case. Not getting the right person behind bars is secondary to keeping the police & prison system running along.
maybe they could have caught 5 of the 19
You need to more, or perhaps get to know anyone in any role at all related to law enforcement (bonus points for making in friend in counter-intel). When you catch someone you know is a bad guy, you are usually presented with a giant wake left behind that person as they move about, do business, etc. Where does he go? How often do his transactions coincide with another pattern? Does he use disposable phone? What numbers has he been calling with those phones? Etc. The whole point is to get your toe in the door of these cells, and follow the trail. Usually it leads to financers, trainers, suppliers, and other partners.
You can't do much to stop the "home grown" variety, obviously. But when someone you know about is traveling to the US from another country, that indicates a bit more involved of a process, with the prospects of a larger group to pursue.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Despite the be'tashed wifebeating alcoholic security official giving me the 'let's make him worried by standing really still and looking anxious' for 5 minutes as he tried not to sweat while operating the fingerprint machine (with webcam) I still decided to live up to my fearless Brit nature:
/. for the first time in a long while (from a google search into something unrelated) I can say, /. is dead to me.
I complained about the oily, fetid, bacterial infected surface.
He ignored me. Probably was about to shit himself, scream, the red coats are coming!!! and run for the hills.
Yeah.
Slashdot are now overstepping themselves to PROVOKE people to submit stories, they are putting a banner requesting stories. As someone who accidentally hit on
Note this: They haven't yet opened up 'open' news submissions, but, they will. They will. One day. Right now the whole 'you run us' smacks of small minded desperation.
It is too inbred in here. w00t. -1. probably. I didn't mean for that. But. really.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
...some countries will get a bye this round
Yes, likely a "good bye" from all their citizens who are already ticked off enough at the US. Certainly I've noticed a huge drop in the number of scientific conferences held in the US. Partly because the visa rules prevent - or at least pose severe problems - for some of those attending and partly because there is a noticeable minority of people who now refuse to travel to the US because of the fingerprinting. I can only imagine that this will swell their ranks.
"Of course, it is worth pointing out that given the recent change in Congress,"
Yeah, a whopping 5% of seats actually changed hands! Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!
95% of the people who voted this stuff into place to begin with are still there. Don't expect anything to change.
Before we let a random person into our country, we need to verify his identity to make sure he's not a criminal or terrorist.
OK. I show up at the border, and someone takes my fingerprints. So what? How does that enable them to 'verify [my] identity'? What are they going to compare the prints against?
I've never been fingerprinted before, in any country, so there's no record for comparison. I don't have a biometric passport. Can you please clarify exactly what they are checking?
Just out of interest, I presume you would be happy for the same logic to be applied reciprocally to Americans visiting my country (the UK)? And then have the UK authorities share those prints with the FBI / your local police department?
What were those cases again?
just wear gloves and when asked say it's a religious thing. It works at airport security...
I thought of that, but it still makes no sense. Are visitors from Denmark supposed to have their fingerprints filed even though they weren't taken, because of the new congress? Or maybe because of the new congress, visitors from Borneo will be allowed to provide additional fingerprints, even though they won't be filed? Or that visitors from Argentina will be allowed to miss the paper with their thumb and it will still be counted as good and filled anyway, thanks to the new congress?
--MarkusQ
As someone who's been fingerprinted by US Customs (apparently I just tried to cross on a bad day for this woman...), it's done with a digital reader, so no ink is involved. I don't know if that changes based on where you enter though.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
While errors in fingerprint identification is an excellent point, everyone posting so far is completely missing a very key issue with this program, that will magnify the problem.
Getting the fingerprints is one step. Sharing them with other governments is the second. While that was briefly mentioned in the summary, this is the key part of this program.
This way, any government can build up a database without having to fingerprint its own citizens. Just get it from another country. This way, you avoid having to deal with the whinings from your own citizens.
This is an excellent end run around the system. And a proven one. The U.S. and the U.K. have been wiretaping each others citizens, and sharing the data, since the end of World War II. This is simply an expansion of the system.
If left unchecked, everyone on the globe will be fingerprinted.
International (Interpol?) criminal databases? If you're not in those DB's, then you likely won't have a problem.
-b.
Try and see if the immigration or visiting procedures for your own country make much sense at all. Possibly they won't.
In other news, London just eclipsed New York as the world's IPO capital. The US is an increasingly undesirable place to do business.
To beat data-mining via store loyalty cards, you can constantly swap them between friends and pay cash. Imagine everyone swapping prints, should be easy with some plasticine (to make the mold) and paper-glue (the type that dries to a film). As a bonus, the friend wearing your prints will get arrested on entry into the US for sending that turd to president Bush. Err no, I've not properly thought this through.
Well, maybe. You won't have to fill out forms asking you, whether you are intending to engage in any unlawful activities, though.
If you were born in the US, chances are that your footprints are already on file. So remember, keep your shoes on when committing crimes.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
All of which is lovely, until someone makes a mistake.
And then your life is shattered if it's your fingerprint they mismatched.
Do you think your government would ever make such a mistake?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Just think no more cheap products to fill the shelves of your local WalMart stores. Won't the masses just love that. Remember that clothing is still made by hand.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
International (Interpol?) criminal databases? If you're not in those DB's, then you likely won't have a problem.
Right, so all the terrorists have to do is recruit operatives with no previous international criminal record. I can't imagine that will be too hard.
With the new optical finger printing terminals that they use nowadays, I have tons of trouble getting through the airport - I have unnaturally low ridges and it takes multiple tries, I have to go wash my hands etc etc before they faintly show up. This is with 2 fingers. Imagine how much time it's going to take me to get through 10 fingers !
Suicide bombers dont consist of repeated offenders...
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Of course. And to do that you take his fingerprint and look for the lines crossing to make a big "T" in the middle, right? Seriously, what on earth makes you think you can reliably identify someone in this way, or that having done so, you will reliably be able to determine whether or not they have criminal intent?
So will biometric ID, not that it matters since the mismatch rates for most of the proposed technologies are so bad that they may well prove worse than useless in practice.
Indeed. The US is the only country I have actively declined to visit in recent years when I had a reasonable opportunity to do so. Would you like to guess why? (Hint: It has nothing to do with disliking the US in general or American citizens, and everyone to do with not trusting the US government and not wanting to subject myself to their draconian border controls.)
You haven't been keeping up with who's been committing the major acts of terrorism in recent years, have you? (Hint: Many of them were citizens of the nation they attacked, and carrying genuine ID, too.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Do investigators try to lift prints from forms visitors had to handle for entry?
But your country will. Someone I know just went to jail for owning child porn. He'll most likely be deported back to germany after his release from jail. His finger prints won't be in any interpol DB, so he'll still be free to enter the US anytime. So what are you protecting yourselves from? Pretty Draconian if you ask me. I'm just glad I have no need or desire to visit your country.
I support the troops. I pay f'ing taxes.
Somewhat tangential, what's the objection to basic fingerprinting? As I see it, the policy is to fingerprint everyone every n years so that fingerprints found at a crime scene may be matched to a name. The only that would work is if everyone is fingerprinted, regardless of suspicion. "You can't fingerprint me, I've never committed a crime!" would only be appropriate if the fingerprint-taking staff considered everyone suspect, or if fingerprinting were associated with being convicted of a crime.
Just some thoughts I had.
The 9/11 hijackers were legally in the US, or at least *entered* legally. They were not citizens, AFAIK, or at least not native-born citizens. As for McVeigh and OKC, it was never McVeigh's aim to destroy American society nor to cause mass random panic. In his twisted mind, he was in a legit war against the US government, but not against all Americans.
-b.
Fingerprint databases are a very useful crime-fighting tool.
Right, but if you look closer, the problem is not at all about solving crime, as government wants you to believe. The problem is the definition of crime imposed by government, which government will never recognize or admit. The problem is simple: there are too many crimes, and therefore, too many peaceful, non-violent human beings in prison.
...but have only done so once after this nonsense of treating visitors as suspects of unknown crimes really got hold. And you know what? When I feel unwelcome I will probably refrain from visiting unless I really have to. That means I will not spend my holidays in the US anymore, something I've done quite a few times before. That means I will have to forgo on visiting some friends who live over there but who knows, they might want to come and visit us here in Sweden instead?
Europe-USA: 1-0
I hope that false feeling of security is worth it for all you USsians. But maybe next time before you go to the poll booth you should read up on what of your founding fathers had to say on the subject of trading liberties for 'security' (quotes are mine).
--frank[at]unternet.org
Not only could they make a mistake, they could frame you, but then again, they could do that anyway.
This fingerprinting is really just a good way to have a unique identity for everybody. This'll be very helpful in the creation of a national/international database of people. And this database is not necessarily a bad thing... it could solve or reduce a lot of tax fraud, Medicaid fraud, crime, and other things I can't immediately think of.
*Still* made by hand. Don't think that we won't have robots that scan a human body and tailor custom clothing to it on site eventually. Think about it: your size will always be in stock. Necessity is the mother of invention.
-b.
when will Islam get itself under control and join the rest of us in the 21st Century?
Well, if he got convicted in the US, his prints will likely be in an FBI or state database. Probably a bar to entering the US. I didn't say they'd *just* check Interpol DBs. Besides, child porn owners are about #1001 on our list of undesirable entrants into the US.
-b.
All these paranoid comments about privacy and Big Brother assumes that the government is actually organized enough to actually do handle all this information. I'd be more worried about the profiteers coming forward to "contract" the management of all this than the government itself.
In the mean time, just relax and do what I do: dip your finger tips into sulfuric acid. It doesn't seem tohave anny negattttive effectsss at alll.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Some might argue you need to transit through American airports to get to various destinations (i.e. Spain => South America), but that's a very rare case and you can usually use Canada as a transit point.
I can just see it every one dressed in the same outfit, China 1960s comes to mind.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Fine, implement new border security measures it is your border do with it what you want. But I really have to ask why the US is targeting the countries it is targeting with new security schemes such as this? Why are the British at the top of the list to have their fingerprints taken on top of the fact that airlines have to forward all that personal information about travellers as well? Shouldn't the US be targeting those countries that are hostile towards the US? How about the country that all the 9/11 hijackers came from, Saudi Arabia?
If you continue to piss off all of your friends and allies don't be surprised to find that you don't have any more friends and allies some time in the near future.
Nah, if custom, automated manufacturing of clothing becomes a reality, you'd have *more* diversity of styles, not fewer. You may even be able to tell your tailoring shop exactly what you want in a suit or shirt, and the alterations will be done as it's made rather than afterwards. Small designers will actually find it easier to sell their designs, since they won't need to put out several thousand copies or make it very expensive to make a profit.
There'll be interesting intellectual property questions, however :)
-b.
Do they have any idea how snarled up the queues will be at the border? As it already is, it takes forever to process one foreign visitor trying to enter the US. The officer interviews the person for a minute, flips through the passport, takes the left index print, takes the right index print, and a picture. The capture process doesn't always work the first time, so they may have to try several times. If a family is trying to enter, each of them has to get their fingerprints and photo taken. Even if you are a US citizen, you're pretty screwed if you happen to arrive at the checkpoint when there happens to be a plane/busload with a high percentage of foreigners ahead of you in the queue.
I don't believe it is possible to make a scanner that could read 5 good fingerprints simultaneously -- the subject has to press down hard or roll each finger to get sufficient contact. Taking all 10 fingerprints would be practically equivalent to shutting off the border altogether. They might as well reopen the Ellis Island and Angel Island holding facilities to deal with the queues.
Other countries will respond in kind and will provide that information to the US. After all, MI5 do the dirty work for the US that the CIA aren't allowed to do.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
> I didn't realize that "not being fingerprinted" is a basic human right.
I don't think it's a basic human right, but aren't you the least bit disturbed that we have two standards, one for citizens and another for others? I, for one, think it's shamefully hypocritical.
You know, just as all of this stuff is implemented the terrorists are going to move on to new mediums and soon, because of the cost of identification on everyone increases, so too will our lifestyle and our economy will collapse. Just my 2 cents. I'm sorry, but this fight will never end.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
That's not how it works. AFIS systems, especially criminal ones, don't take -ANY- sort of decision by themselves, they just do some matching on the DB, and produce 'candidates' list (ie: the list of prints that look the most like the one(s) you searched.) then an expert looks at the results, and resumes the identification visually, as they've been doing since fingerprint identification was invented.
/.'er a bit more info, this works in conjunction with "watch lists." There will be fingerprints of individuals in a watch list DB whereby if the individual travels, after their fingerprints are recorded at the airport a hit against the watch list is reported. From there, depending on the level of interest the government(s) have in the individual lots of procedures could be fired off.
FYI: This is exactly how it works.
To give the average
The burden for the individual begins when your identity ends up in a watch list. History tells us there are many rather harmless individuals that were on more primitive versions of watch lists like Martin Luther King along with some genuinely bad characters. So, it's a really mixed bag.
The time to be outraged was at least 25 years ago. The most immediate solution would be to put most of congress and the senate on a watch list as "bad people" and then there would probably be some (in)action.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I'm pretty confident in my post. You should check my references for this.
But the thing is that it will narrow the dataset of, say, 1 BN people down to a handful of "maybes" that can then be screened.
Besides, I haven't thought it out, but I think the reality of fingerprint matching doesn't reduce to the "number of pixels must equal number of people." Wouldn't it actually be the number of permutations possible from X pixels must be equal to the number of people?
This is a very, very big difference.
Lines are already bad enough at immigration with only taking 2 fingerprints, now they want to take 10? Now you're guaranteed to miss your connection if you're unlucky enough to connect from abroad within the US.
I live and work out of Canada... in the past I have visited the USA as part of some contract work. I often go to conferences in the states. I've also considered relocating to the United States for my job as the pay is marginally better down there.
The post-9/11 world has changed my views on this, and it just keeps getting worse!
There is no way I will go to the United States to work! I am even avoiding it for the holidays. 10 years ago, we used to just drive south of the border for shopping or recreation - day trips. It's becoming a scary police state and now I'm avoiding travel down south whenever possible.
I guess that's the intended effect of these xenophobic laws, right... keep the law-abiding professional workers (and wealthy tourists) out of your country. Good thing the US economy is so healthy. Ooops
And where are these automated talor shops going to hold all the bolts of cloth, notions and jigs that will be required and how long will it take to actually get the item made once you walk into the shop.
It is actually a lot more complicate that it would seem at first glance, even doing it by hand is. For instance cloth is not rigid and therefore is very hard to manipulate. Which is why we have sweat chops in third world contries today.(knited stuff is a different matter it lends itself easly to machine production)
No, I need kids clothes now, I do not have the time to wait for the system to measure my children, fetch the cloth, load it into the system, cut it out, assemble it.....
I want to go to the rack get it, hold it up to my kids, see if they fit and then purchase it all before the little brate start to get fussy.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I never said it would be simple, just that it's a solvable problem, eventually.
No, I need kids clothes now, I do not have the time to wait for the system to measure my children, fetch the cloth, load it into the system, cut it out, assemble it.....
Have your kids measured once or twice a year, possibly via an ultrasound or millimeter wave system that makes a 3D model of their physique. Maybe at the same time as a medical checkup. The data could be kept electronically on a flash disk that's given to a shop. For those times when you need clothing *now*, there could also be premade off-the-rack stuff made using the same automated tech.
-b.
Well then it's a matter of blacklisting more than fingerprinting. That kind of thing is done here also, for example a the entrance to football stadiums (hooligans, etc), but the blacklist maintained by the police is generated by the justice, only from people with national or international capture requests. Even then, automatic HITs (positives) are subject to confirmation by a fingerprint expert.
This has already been done in every airport by just looking at people and having a list of 'bad guys' photographs. If I have to choose from checking my prints and just having someone decide if I look like one of the criminals on the list, I'd go for the prints, It's far more accurate.
But of course, I'd rather not be checked at all...
"Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- Terry Pratchett
Spoken like someone who has never had kids.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
As a UK subject who has visited the US a number of times I know how nice and friendly the people can be. It is sad therefore to see this sort of action by your government. The reasons given may well be to stop terror but I ask you at what cost? I know people who now have no intention of going to the US ever due to these new measures. And personally each new idea they come up with seems more extreem each time. It is more sad to see people write that its alright to do this to foreigners (particularly considering where most of the US population came from). If the freedoms of the US are so great, should they not apply to all.
The US used to stand as a beacon for freedom and democracy, what, I wonder would a survey round the world turn up now?
When I arrived at 24hr fitness this morning, they had installed turnstiles
and a biometric fingerprint sensor. The red faced young girl asked me to
please scan my fingerprint and then enter my phone number.
I didn't even bother to ask how they were going to secure the database
of phone numbers and fingerprints. I asked her what the alternative ID
method was. She said I could show my driver's license and gym membership card.
Their old policy used to be that you could use a xerox or old expired license -
that way you can put both of these inside the plastic card holder and
not worry about leaving your license in your wallet. So, this is a mild pain.
But I simply don't trust them with this information. My fingerprint is none
of their business. And I CERTAINLY don't trust them to keep the data secure.
'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we're all damaged.' As Picard once said.
What, without being a crime suspect? :-(
Jeez, wtf is going on here.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Off-the-shelf clothing would still be available. This would just enhance the number of choices and make clothes better fitting. The measurements would be taken electronically and quickly. They wouldn't require standing still for more than a few seconds. Certainly no worse than trying clothing on a screaming kid until you happen upon something that fits. Remember that since clothing is handmade, there's some difference even between the same numerical sizes.
-b.
There's a lot that congress could do to stop the war.
But I, like many other, doubt that they have the balls to do it.
Which brings us back to the question: if they are unwilling to take steps (or even admit that they have the power to take steps) to do something as popular and visable as ending the war in Iraq, what does the article summary comment about "giving some countries a bye" possibly mean.
--MarkusQ
Many people don't know, but Brazil diplomacy works with reciprocity in all cases (that's why americans are required a visa to enter Brazil). About 3 years ago, the USA started to photograph every foreign citizen arriving to its territory. Based on diplomatic reciprocity, all americans citizen were also photographed and identified at entering. Then in January 24th, 2004, Dale Robbin Hersh, an American Airlines pilot decided to have some fun at the brazilian authorities expenses by discretly flipping his middle finger when photographed, as you can see in his pic. He was immediately arrested for disrespect towards authority and released after paying a US$15,000 fine. Back to the USA, he was suspended from his work for some time. Why did he do that? Because the identification of americans was slow, he was tired after a long trip and had to wait about 2 hours in a line to be identified. He thought this identification was bulsh*t (and it really was, the risk of an american terrorist trying to enter illegally in Brazil to do something wrong must be below zero), but the law is the law. And the americans were just getting here the same treatment brazilians were getting in the USA. If you want respect, you have to give respect back.
So say we all
Like this?
Note on clothing sizes. They vary from country to country and from manufacturer to manufacturer and the French will always be different.
So how many of these complete systems will be standing by to make the clothing. I don't want to que up every time I want to get a new suit. It would make purchasing clothes as much fun as getting your licence renewed.
Another note: Ever taken your wife shopping for clothes. Looking a catalogues just does not cut it for the fairer sex. Everything has to be on the rack to be touched, tried on, accessorized and to enable them to ask the most dangerious of questions "Does this make me look fat?".
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
There will be "floor models" to try on. Plus some clothing will be off the rack still. My original point was about automated domestic production, not about custom fitting. The possibility of custom fitting would just be a nice fringe benefit.
I don't want to que up every time I want to get a new suit.
One typically needs some alterations done anyway to make a suit fit correctly. So you'll be getting it the next day, usually, as it is now. This opens up the possibility of perfectly-fitting, custom-made suits at a more reasonable price: something that has been hitherto impossible.
-b.
Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
Here's why I think this will fail:
...until they figure out a way to outsource and offshore it, like T.I.A.
Criminals in the U.S. Justice system have DNA samples recorded and stored. Someone will point out that a DNA database means the United States equates visitors with criminals. Angry Heads of State call the White House, and this proposal is quietly dropped.
Read the sentence before the one you quoted:You haven't been keeping up with who's been committing the major acts of terrorism in recent years, have you?
major acts of terrorism haven't only occoured in the USA. IIRC the Madrid bombings were perpetrated by Spanish Nationals, all the bombers in the the London Bombings were British, and the people who committed the inhabitants of Bali was blown up by fellow Indonesians. And that's only the Al Quieda attacks. I haven't even mentioned atrocities committed by ETA or "real" IRA, among others.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
We were talking about US politics, not politics in foreign countries. Each country has a different demographic makeup, so different rules should apply. In the US, good border security may go a long way.
-b.
My life is an open book ... up to a point.
Wha-wha-wait... Where is that "utterly infalible authorities" coming from?.. A tad off-topic, aren't we?..
Finger-print match from a crime-scene is always strong evidence of the person having something to do with the crime — its been like this for years. Unless you are against using them at all, you should not be against using them at the border — not for this reasons, anyway...
And yes, it is the hated "authorities", however fallible, that decide, what is a "crime scene"...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
As for the "reasonable price" thing: You still have to figure in the development, manufacturing and maintenance costs of the device as well as the manufacturing and transport cost of the fabric(s) used. Especially when you get to the custom clothing part; small runs always are much more expensive than large ones because it's less efficient to reprogram the machine(s) for every single piece than to just let them run for a couple hundred thousand ones.
I think that if you'd completely isolate yourself you'd probably go to mass-produced clothing with a high cotton content made in partially automated manufactures. That way you don't have the short-term time and money costs associated with the development and deployment of tailoring robots. And, honestly, nobody ever thinks of the long term.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
It may also be a stepwise process - one innovation begets another until we do have robots. As it stands now, clothing manufacture hasn't changed much from 120 years ago.
-b.
While the FBI's database does include convicted felons (not sure if your prints go in it if not convicted or for misdemeanors), it also includes the prints of every Federal employee and all military personel. The database is not strictly for criminal records. Admittedly adding all visitors from other countries to the database is increasing the scope of its use a good bit, but it does not mean they are automatically assuming you are a criminal or a terrorist.
Think this is a quote of someone, "screw you guys, I'm going home". It was the first thing that popped my mind when I read the summary. Plans visiting USA, simple answer, no. Before all "terror"-war stuff, yes.
m10
Similarly, I would not object to having to take my belt and shoes off, if the TSA officers were standing their beltless and barefeet themselves. But they don't. And when I asked for paper towels to "slide" on my bare feet through the scanner without touching the dirty floor, they said I can't and forced me to walk barefeet through the machine...
Interestingly, when I was going through the same procedure before the Kyiv-JFK flight (from Ukraine), I was given single-use "slippers" to cover my socks while shoe-less... Perhaps, being barefeet in front of a government officer is only undignifying for an Eastern European?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Alas, if you did your research, the number of the beast was originally 616 and was a coded reference to the Roman Emperor Nero.
The rules are the same for everyone, every country has it's share of looneys; the USA is not exempt. Why you think that all your countries citizens are more loyal to the country than another countries citizens are to it, I don't know. Any real threat from terrorists probably comes from people already inside your country, and with no criminal record (if the terrorists have any degree of sophistication, that is; I believe it's been proved they have). Fingerprinting only serves to put tourists and business people off visiting. I doubt there is any large benefit to national security. I know I'll not be visiting the USA until restrictions like these are lifted, your country needs my tourist £££s more than I need your country. I'll just hop on the next 99p flight to the south of France, or perhaps Pizza in Italy instead (or Berlin, Prague or Rome etc. there's a lot to see on my own continent). It's cheaper and just entertaining and more relaxing than fighting my way through US customs.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
If you're born in a country, grew up there, and have family and friends living there, you'll be a lot less likely to want to indiscriminately kill your compatriots. Besides, suicide terrorists are much harder to stop, but people raised in an American culture are unlikely to become suicide terrorists. Lastly, people do have a way of being loyal to the country of their birth, even without strong economic incentives.
Even McVeigh didn't want to destroy America per se - he was fighting against the government in his twisted mind and he thought the Federal Building a military target. Islamic terrorists OTOH have routinely spoken about wanting the collapse of American society.
I know I'll not be visiting the USA until restrictions like these are lifted, your country needs my tourist £££s more than I need your country. I'll just hop on the next 99p flight to the south of France, or perhaps Pizza in Italy instead (or Berlin, Prague or Rome etc. there's a lot to see on my own continent). It's cheaper and just entertaining and more relaxing than fighting my way through US customs.
Have fun -- we won't miss you too much honestly. BTW - Prague, CZ and Krakow, PL are really beautiful and interesting cities, been there several times.
-b. -b.
It is actually easier to go to China then it is to the USA.
Funnily enough, though I'm conscious of the risks of someone being set up, I'm more concerned in practice with the risks of simple human error. As I've described once or twice before around these parts, I wound up overpaying tax a few months into my first job, an amount that wouldn't be much to most of us but which was devastating to someone starting a career and actually losing money each month until his first pay rise. It took me three months to get the situation sorted out, after calls to several different tax offices, my company accountant, etc. etc. There was no advance warning -- the first I knew of the problem was when my pay cheque for the month was 100 short -- and clearly there was no effective mechanism in place to identify and fix the mistake. It all turned out to be caused by one person working in a tax office mistyping someone else's NI number (like an American SSN) and fluking mine instead. That person probably typed dozens, maybe hundreds, of such numbers every day, and I doubt there was any malice in their actions, but nevertheless it nearly wrecked my life for several months.
Perhaps this experience colours my personal perspective of the risks here, but I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who's been set up by our government here, while I know many people who have been the innocent victims of government mistakes. The malice, on the whole, comes from people like identity thieves, though of course a system like this (or, God forbid, the proposed National Identity Register in the UK) is crying out for abuse by these guys too. :-(
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Pretty much exactly like that, yes. :-(
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
In this case, a national identity plus fingerprints could be a good thing. You could easily prove you are not that other person by matching your fingerprints up to those of your id. But this would assume that the fingerprint information would be accessible and used by more that just the police/antiterrorist agencies.
Hopefully other countries will follow suit and fingerprint Americans that visit, then share that data with the US government. In other words, if you leave the US your fingerprints will be given to the FBI. Maybe that will make some US citizens think a bit more. Particularly the rich ones that travel a lot.
Well... absent a database, a finger print left at a scene is only useful if there's something ELSE that leads you to the person. So you need some evidence to find them, then you can use the fingerprint as confirmation.
A database of people who've been convicted of some crime means you can find previous offenders on fingerprint evidence only.
If you've got a database of non-criminals then all you need to track down the person is a fingerprint. The court may still require more evidence, but they may not either... so there's nothing physical forcing you to have more than fingerprint evidence anymore.
The President is sworn to see that the laws of the United States are faithfully executed. And Congress, if it can get a veto-proof majority, has sole say on what is the law and what isn't. There's nothing in the constitution requiring a standing military--they could shut it down if they wished, and send everyone home. In addition to having sole, non-delegable authority to declare war (which they have not done for the conflict in Iraq) they are (to quote the Constitution) "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States..."
Despite their present whining (and Bush's posturing) to the contrary, they have more than enough authority to call the whole thing off.
--MarkusQ
If they are not criminals or even assumed to be so, just visitors, why should their fingerprints go in a database with criminals. Of course this is not the biggest problem, but would it be so hard to have a separate non-criminal database?
In this case, a national identity plus fingerprints could be a good thing. You could easily prove you are not that other person by matching your fingerprints up to those of your id.
Unless the data-entry error caused the wrong ID to be associated with his set of fingerprints.
Brazil should be mandatory viewing for anyone discussing the creation of a police-state based on databases.
Assuming court's complacency, you don't need fingerprints to begin with :-)
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
"under the proposal all 10 fingerprints"
They'll have a damn hard time getting all 10 fingerprints.
Most people i know only have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.
Being treated like a terrorist really make me want to go to the U.S.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Wow! from 2008, the FBI will be 5x more likely of catching a terrorist. That's wicked!
Good point.
Fingerprints are kind of special though... like DNA, jurors seem to think they're more or less infallible. Like the guy in this thread who replied that someone's fingerprints at a location where a crime occurred are a pretty good indication that they were involved.
Naah. Too friendly. How about anal probing with a cattle prod?
-L
Bah. I'm not some random person, I'm a citizen of an allied nation. And I'm not visiting your country anymore because apparantly you're okay with living in what can only be described as a neo-fascist police state. Your loss, not mine.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
For my kayaking trip to Costa Rica this December I thought I had a direct Martinair flight from Amsterdam to San Jose (the capital of Costa Rica, not the one in California), but due to the hub system, it turned out to be a Amsterdam-Miami flight, followed by 3 hours in Miami airport, and a Miami-San Jose flight. While european airports leave transit travelers in a 'twilight zone' the USA seems to think all inbound tourists want to enter the country, so must fill in a stupid form with your US address (none), walk barefeet or in your socks (no shoes), holding up your pants (no belt), through customs. There are a few non-USA-resident lines to handle a 747 full of europeans, and 20 lines for USA residents of which there where just a handfull on the flight. There you are fingerprinted, photographed, and asked stupid questions. You wonder "Did the cold war really end 30 years ago?" Two hours later the same routine. This is how it feels to be treated like a criminal. And then there is the thought that one small mistake in a database somewhere or slight resemblance to a known terrorist can turn this unpleasant treatment into a Guantanomo Bay-like nightmare. I'm just a tourist who wants to spend my euros and holidays in a nice country with friendly people!
Some places in the world require you to transit via USA, why can't they make twilight zones for transit passengers? I already stopped spending my tourist euros on USA destinations and USA airline companies, should I also exclude countries only reachable via USA transit hubs?
A dutch comedian (Lebbis & Jansen) this new year's eve said that pretty soon all flights to the USA will require you to be handcuffed and blindfolded for your own safety. People laughed, but I did not think it funny. The only way to stop that from happening is a worldwide boycott of USA airlines, airports and transit hubs. Even if it will not reverse the big brother practices of the USA government (51% of the USA residents did not vote for), at least it will counterbalance some of the air polution caused by USA's gas-guzzling SUV trucks and 1960-technology Boeing planes.
I can totally imagine how the conversation goes between an immigration officer and a visitor who doesn't speak american (which is different from english)
. ,l,,
.
.
Officer: Now put your right hand middle finger on the scanner.
Visitor: Zis one?
The only objection to fingerprinting everyone (somewhere in elementary school) is the indignity of (mis)treating every citizen as a (potential) criminal.
Of course there couldn't be any other sane or rational argument, such as perhaps the possibility of falsely being accused because when you're dealing with that much data you're bound to have some problems. No of course not.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
As I understand it, Canada may not be such a good choice as a hub anymore. Any flight over U.S. airspace is subject to the U.S. no-fly list, along with who knows how many other conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to demand the same fingerprinting for all flights passing over U.S. airspace, and you try and see if you can get a direct flight from Canada to just about anywhere in the Caribbean, Central or South America...
/Arbitrary
On the original topic, I for one no not trust any U.S. agency to securely keep records of my fingerprints, nor do they have any valid reason to have them in the first place. I don't trust their competence not to screw up and falsly identify me for something I haven't done, I don't trust their purpose for even 'meaning well', and I certainly don't trust the pork-barrel contractors that would get the contract to design, run, validate, and profit off the whole thing. Personal liberties, rights, and privacy are all fragile things...
rant.
I'm a U.S. citizen who has recently obtained dual citizenship with Canada (after living in Canada for around 14 years), and I even try to avoid going to the U.S. at all costs anymore. The 'security' is laughable, completely ineffective if your terrorists have half a brain, and succeeds only in increasing your travel time by approximately 4-5 hours (compared to travel times in the 90's) for a single flight and considerably upping the annoyance and frustration of the whole thing. About the only thing that can get me to go to the U.S. is visiting remaining family once every few years. \rant.
I think the Founding Fathers would be very disappointed in the direction that we've taken the United States in the last hundred years.
Aye, free Negroes everywhere.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
nuff said ... not even trying to be devil's advocate etc ... just a troll ...
They can take my prints, DNA or even stick a RFID tag in me for all I care. I don't have anything to hide, and I don't go around breaking the law. Paranoia is a brilliant tell-tale sign of guilty conciences in this subject, I believe.
To compare notes, I live 30 klicks from the nearest MAJOR crossing (I-81 / Hwy 401 in ON).
Haven't been over since the summer after 9/11 -- didn't like being treated like a criminal.
Used to go over WEEKLY to cross-border shop. Haven't been there professionally since just after Y2K. That trip, I spent nearly $10,000 in a week. Now... I just conference call.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
What abou the question of having to hand compare 50x as many potential matches after the computer finds them for you.
When I renewed my US tourist visa, my fingerprints were taken (not a full set, tho, only the index fingers of both hands). When I entered the US about a month ago, these same prints were taken again. I guess it's just to confirm that you're not taking a fake visa. However, being from Colombia, I'm really not surprised I get this treatment. I'm just glad my own government isn't slowly turning into Big Brother like the US is.
Terrorists find fertile ground for recruits wherever there are people who are disadvantaged or discriminated against (or who feel that way, justifiably or not). Do you really think nobody fits that profile in the larger ghettos of the inner cities of the US like LA, Atlanta, Miami, New York, or DC?
I have heard that gender, economic and social disparities and corruption are leading to a rising muslim conversion rate among Central American countries. How long do you think before it starts picking up speed where you are?
Now of course, the best way to fight that is through public information on how theocracies are eventually no better (and often become much worse) at all of those issues than democracies. But when your public information channels have been filled with duplicitous propaganda from corporate oligarchies in bed with a corporatist administration to manipulate the populace, nobody believes any information from those sources any more...
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
I used to have to put up with those costums issues, but I've found a better way:
First you take a plane to Cuba. Rather than going through their costums you enter the toilet before it and squeeze through the little window, climb over the fence, then past the guard dogs, armed guard and finaly the mine field around the airport and head West. At the coast you build a raft from the trees and lower this raft to the ocean. Climb down the cliff and then use the raft to cross the water to the US coast. About half way you'll have to leave this raft behind, otherwise the coast guard will notice you. The last few dozen miles you'll have to swim, preferably under water.
This might seem like a tough job, but it's hundreds of times easier than passing through US costumes.
I've experienced the same situation. What Washington cooks up isn't an exact match for what the average US citizen wants to see (at least not the folks I have dealt with). The issue is, however, that somehow the US democratic process got completely hijacked so there appears to be zero chance of turning the clock back.
Having said that, is what Tony Blair comes up with (i.e. treating Orwell's "1984" as a handbook) really what UK citizens want? Is Ken Livingston's creative use of London residents surveys as intended? AFAIK the answer is "no", in both cases. Different countries, same problem: both claim to be democratic, neither are.
Can't really see this changing, though, and meanwhile, the population suffers..
To all of you people in the Land of the Free (somerestrictionsmayapply, offernotvalidatalllocations, etc.), Home of the Brave that aren't worried by this kind of thing, here is why you should be... Tourism and jobs.
I can't remember the stats exactly from back home, but I think the deal was that every 1 tourist visiting the country creates 2 jobs. That is in a largely unskilled market, so let's assume that it's just one job for the US. This means that every person who decides to stay away means that one more of your countrymen is unemployed.
I am a classic example. I used to make around 5 trips to the US per year. My flights were with American companies (AA for preference, Continental as a second choice). On personal trips (1 - 2) these would be 2 x flights for my wife and I at around £1000 (so call it $1500 to be conservative). That's $3000 per year. On business (2 - 3 trips) it would just be 1 flight for myself, but then this would be around the £3000 mark per trip. That's $12,000 per year lost to the US economy just on my flights.
Then there are hotels. On business, I only ever stayed in 4* hotels, so costs were around $290 per night in NY, $100 per night in NC. On vacation, nightly costs varied between $70 in towns per night to $200 per night in national parks / bigger cities. Worst case scenario, that is $700 per personal trip ($1400 per year) and $2030 per business trip ($4000 per year). Then there is car hire, eating out, shopping, training ($1000 for skydiving instruction, etc.), national park entrance fees, costs for guided tours in national parks, entrance to attractions, food at attractions, etc. Lets call that £2000 per trip for pleasure and £2000 per trip for business (although it was always more).
So to use me as an example, by implementing these draconian security measures (and the unfriendly, overly aggresive TSA staff who enforce them), you have cost yourself a minimum of $25,000.00 PER YEAR!
That is why this should matter to you.
That's me, I think. Is it not a good indication, however? The defense lawyer will have to do his job... What would he say?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Sadly, we had terrorist acts against us committed by citizens of allied nations. Heck — even by our own citizens... And the allied nations — Germany, Spain, Britain — have suffered similarly, from either their own citizens, or trusted visitors.
Bzzz.... You lose. Remember to logout...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Did you read the stupid questions carefully ? One of them is about fricking Nazi war crimes. Didn't the Second World War end over 60 years ago ?
What happens if anyone who's less than 60 years old checks a "yes" there ? I'm curious.
Given the FBI's inability to buy a useable computer system, I can't think of a safer custodian for everyone's fingerprints.
c le/2006/08/17/AR2006081701485.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti
It depends. If your fingerprints are in blood on Joe's lifeless body, it's a pretty good indication. But suppose your fingerprints were on the wine bottle used to bash Joe over the head. Did you do it? Or were you shopping for some wine that afternoon and picked up that bottle to have a look, just before Joe bought it? Now, if you had also been seen to threaten Joe the day before, you'd have some explaining to do.
Yes, the defense lawyer will have to do his job... and in the above case he might be able to. Or he might not.
A lot of people have, for a long time, thought that such things as databases with everybody's fingerprints in them aren't such a hot idea.
There are also certain occupations -- cutting up pineapple was one, I think -- where the workers fingertips are in contact with solvents that gradually burn away the prints.
Of course, the top few layers of skin are gradually *replaced* by your body, so if you quit with the sander you'll get your same prints back after awhile.
Fascism, S&M and anal probes have their appeal to some people..
Well, I for one do not want anyone taking my fingerprints when I'm not suspected of any crime, and then selling my data to all the countries and databases around the world for exploiting. Americans can kiss my money good bye.
Also americans not giving any rights to foreigners and claiming their constitution doesn't do so, sounds like I would be ripe to be tortured in that country by ignorant people and their abuse. I'm not going to visit any country that doesn't respect and abide by the Treaty Against Torture and USA is clearly not doing it now, as long as harsh interrogations are OK and Guantanamo is still standing.
I for one will boycott this kind of fascism gladly.
I assume that by "Americans" you mean "US government agencies".
As we have opportunity to read for example this: DHS Gets Another "F" In Cyber Security, I have to point out that such information will be (if not alredy is) available also to non-government and non-US and also non-agencies.
Some people said/wrote, that privacy is alredy dead so the solution would be for everybody to be able to wach everybody else. Such solution would also include ability of ordinary people to watch police, of course. Not like now, where police can watch anybody but nobody can watch police - see Enemy of the State, quote at the end: "and who is going to watch the watchers of watchers ...?".
hany
Yup, nice film reference.
I myself used film reference in discussion related to this article.
That reminds me of an article here on /. about NSA or something looking at movies for predictions about threats to national security. I'm unable to find the article so maybe I do not remember correctly.
But still, there are a lot of things to learn from movies and books. Even stories for little children contain some knowledge in addition to entertainment. But it looks like that people after certain age fail to realize that and that's why "grown-ups" call such things "entertainment".
And maybe that's also the reason why only minority of people fail to see anything bad on proposals like described in this article even after seeing Brazil, 1984, Enemy of the State, ...
hany