It's not even an old Joke - I believe it was a quotable thing said by, probably, Micron CEO a while back.
This, if nothing else, shows how thin the DRAM margin is, and why RAMBUS trying to skim 2% *gross* will never fly.
anyway, the point is that by pushing out a large volume, they keep their lines running, which means that they can actually make SOMETHING off those lines and get some kind of profit because the cost of running them things through arn't so damn high. This can be demonstrated by how 512M SODIMMs are 135 at crucial while the 1G SODIMMs are 1000... How much you wanna bet the 1G ones are the real money makers?
That, and you are grabbing market share.
to be honest I am not 100% sure how this works out, but by keeping the lines oiled and running, if it's nothing else, it's preventing the company from losing the *real* big bux.
on the ground that Explorica had used confidential information obtained from EF to assist in obtaining this pricing information in violation of confidentially agreements executed by former EF employees now working for Explorica.
seems like it's the using confidential information part that got the scrapper capped.
I don't see why accessing *public* information be problematic.
the only thing that may be of trouble is the website EULA, but then the EULA would be saying the same thing as "don't visit my store unless you intend to buy," which would be rediculous in brick-and-mortar world (and should be similarly in cyberspace).
last question, though - why the heck would you ask this kind of stuff HERE? wouldn't a law-forum be a better choice?
okay, I really think you are missing my original intention of asking this question from the perspective of a "average user," or even "slightly above average but still under 3 std-dev on the bell curve kind of user."
otoh, if you need that kind of power in an acedemic environment, clusters might be the real way to go... In my school, we had a cluster that simulated transistor operations (down to the subatomic particle level), and that was a few dozen dual-proc P3s (this was a few years back) with maxed out RAM.
But at the same time, I don't quite think you'd be doing these important stuff on a hacked XP SMP system now, would you =)
I have *personally* never saw any hard evidence about this. anybody have a link / site / whitepaper / definitive source?
Now, it is possible that if the SMP portion of the chip have a failure (stuck transistor in a non critical portion, say), they can still sell it as a XP chip, but I don't see why it would require different *timing restrictions*. Believe it or not, it's still just moving data to and from the memory, and having a dedicated path to each CPU even makes this easier.
Granted there are memory control issues (locking, for example) involved, but cache coherency is handled (AFAIK - though my CPU architecture knowledge is very rusty) pretty much the same as a cache miss, so no big impact there.
So, I can imagine that changing an XP to an MP can get you bad things happening if you are unlucky enough to get a chip with a bad SMP block, but I don't think they would become as unstable as you are suggesting.
aaaanyway. I might be talking out of my ass, though. correct me if somebody knows the real straightdope.
not trolling, but a serious question, coming from a ex-SMP-user:
why SMP nowadays?
Most OS, including XP, is now reasonably stable to the point where multitasking, including buring a CD, while doing something else is OK. (not to mention that CD burners have buffer under-run protection *anyhow* nowadays) I know this because my laptop, which is a measly P3, can handle all of the multitasking I do, given that I have pumped up the amount of RAM.
If I was doing stuff for school / research, Mathematica, Matlab, Maple, Spice (ok not 100% sure on spice) are all single processor only. And to be honest, if you are running a 3-day simulation, you really don't want to be playing UT at the same time on the same machine ANYWAY, so that's kind of a moot point. (you should probably not be playing UT period during such times, but that's a time management story that i won't get into)
If I was doing real work like rendering stuff, I think real work deserves a real SMP system, i.e. with a warrenty.
I mean, SMP has a pretty hefty price overhead (motherboard, memory if you want ECC, and the extra CPU, heavy duty power supply, another set of heatsinks etc), not to mention that the motherboard / chipset technology is usually a few monthes to two years behind the cutting edge stuff...
so, what convincing reason do a person have for using SMP right now (especially a ghetto-rigged one)?
but how would you have became "bored and quit" working on (or, having the *opportunity* to work on) z-pinches and very dangerous stuff that would probably change human society as we know it?
I mean, besides large quantities of sex, I can't quite imagine something I'd more inclined to do compared to playing with things that has the possibility of making a sizable crater in the earth's surface.
As for "out of date information" in a previous post, I would like to add that it is possible to electrostatically confine fusionable plasma by using a circular electrode. I think it was invented by farnsworth (inventor of TV, coincedentally), though sadly like much of Tesla's more enigmatic works, that particular fusion reactor has faded into the dark.
Seems like to counter this problem, Japanese DVD releases are *never* complete. I'll use Evangelion series as an example - but to get all of the footages (including the short live-action one), you'd have to buy something like 4 different editions - and even at usually 40-50 dollars *per*disc*, there are still people doing it - albeit complaining while doing so.
I dunno. Given sufficiently dedicated fans, I think they can make this into a big money making venture, but at a heavy cost (wallet-wise) to the real fans. But anyway, at least Hollywood won't have to suffer (ha!).
That has to be about the most creative name I have ever heard. I do wonder if some chemicals were involved (inhaled, possibly?) during its creation, though. =)
availability, portability, ease of distribution, (add a few more benefits that we'll never see because of the crippling restrictions placed on e-books by adobe and a slew of others).
Heh, considering a large percentage of newspaper people thinks that there will only be electronic news a few years down the line (see previous/. story), - well, I guess everyone can infer their own conclusions.
I am not at all against the idea of paying money for something I like, and in fact I have watched many of the listed titles via rental - the point I am trying to put across is, though (granted, apparently didn't come through so clearly) is the fact that access control on stuff is very much a pain.
My biggest peeve is that it is darn near impossible to get English subtitled works that were produced here in Japan! That's not to mention the rediculous hoops I would jump through do circumvent the region coding - by buying another DVD player or otherwise.
That's not to mention that Animatrix is not yet released, and dispite a seemingly comprehensive effort to make it to the japanese side (the online trailers have japanese versions, methinks?), there are no possibilities of seeing them on the big screen here (none that I am aware of, anyhow) as during previews or otherwise.
but would SOMEBODY please web-cam / tape it and make it available online somewhere?
Some people just can't make it to LA on short notices like this (not to mention it's a week long excursion). Especially (and ironically) people that have to be in Japan during that time, like myself, actually.
In Japan, companies have PHS phones that they can attach to their internal PBX, and the phones would have an internal extention but would work throughout the company even though, say, the place had different locations. It's almost like a miniture cellular network.
The reason I bring it up is because that I can't imagine the 802.11 based phones be any better than this - especially since you would need some serious WAN/VPN between facilities for the phone to work across them. added to the fact that routing and entryption takes a bite of latency, I won't imagine using them is very pleasant at all.
That's not to mention that as far as I remembered, keeping a WiFi connection alive takes magnitudes more power than cellphone technology.
Granted, PHS is not a standard in the US (I actually don't think it's anywhere else), but for this particular usage, I actually think it's pretty cool, and very suited.
btw, PHS is different from cellular in some ways though very similar. I am too sleepy to type them up. For some +informative karma, anybody want's to explain the difference?
So, - what in the world does RAM size has to do with application storage? Last I checked applications / data / whatever are stored in ROM?
And it's interesting that Palm would be able to handle that much RAM - I mean, I still know some full blown computers straddling around with 64M... I won't even talk about the time when 8M was a lot, or when some idiot thought 640k was enough for everyone, and before that when stuff were represeted by holes on paper, and before even that when wooden beads on a frame were used in asia.
anyhoo... can't imagine anything that will take advantage of that much RAM (right now), though, it'd be interesting what comes of it if they tried - Palm don't have the processing power, but if it did, much more powerful software can be written for it.
Otoh - DRAM (I am assuming they are using DRAM for the extra RAM)needs to be refreshed which means that even in standby / whatever, they still draw a non-insignificant amount of power. I am seriously hoping that RAMTRON will get the density up so we can have some MRAM action.
(side note - SRAM draws more juice when operating but uses nearly none when in standby (only leakage current - which on modern cmos is equilavent to counting electrons) - I wonder how does manufactures of PDAs determine which ones to go with, if cost wasn't a issue (with cost an issue DRAM-or-SRAM is not even a question))
I mean, seriously though! They make clothes that (they are called "armors," btw) that will take that kind of abuse and have you come out scratch free.
On the motorcycle side of things, people routinely walk away (bruised, but not seriously harmed otherwise) when they go out of control riding in the lower three digits. And a barstool is what, fastest at 45mph?
I mean, I see them people sitting on the stools, mostly wearing clothes they would go to a bar with - that's suicidal! there is a reason why there are body armors out there, and yes they do work (granted, a few grand for a nice riding suit)
Then again, maybe it's just a way to eliminate people from the gene pool.
Since Phonix / firebird / whatever it will change to will be intergrated into Moz ANYWAY, why not just call it moz.browser and moz.mail and moz.chat or something?
Heck even M$ has realized that keeping up with multiple names and multiple "product images" are silly and effort-consuming, and.NET will be named "Windows server family" or some such.
i mean, if it's a code name, fine - you use it INTERNALLY and you can call it whatever you want. Seriously though, people...
And on gamefaqs message board has TONS of "is this game too girly" posts.
I think people needs to stop stereotyping things into "girls stuff" vs. "boys stuff," and instead just into "good stuff" and "crappy stuff."
Granted, most gamefaqs kids are in the midst of their teenage-hood so probably still searching for "oneself." But anyhoo - these stereotypes should not be propagated in the first place. I do wonder where they start.
* Corporate lobby (hey, it's a sale-point) * TIA would be seriously hampered if everyone is very secure * fear of technology leak into other countries * other acts of "head-in-ass"
We will outlaw speeding! that'll surely get people to drive safely and stuff.
That said, I guess it's better than having legalized spam. Though, otoh junk fax law applies to spam already anyway, methinks?
I am reminded of a quote from War and Peace - "Everybody can write regulations, but it's finding ways to enforce them that's the difficult / tricky part."
Actually a while back when we (college frat) found out about realdoll, some guy(s) gave them a call, and apparently they had leftover breasts that they are trying to get rid of, for like 20 dollars a pop.
I mean, none of us had that kind of money back then (food money, after all), but sleeping on a bed of boobs do have its enticing points. Anybody give it a try and post the results? that would be the ULTIMATE bed-mod project.;^)
(for pricing reference, last I checked a "midsection sample" is 1,500 dollars, and a complete doll was over 5,000 - 20 dollars per breast is a steal)
man the guy certainly has a lot of time to meddle with the XBOX...
Talk about a great school...
* Diploma that will get you LARGE amount of cash later * Research topic is to fiddle around with game console * Appear to be victim and popularized as sort of a martyr on/.
Now if you add a dash of sex (point one - mass quantity of money, can usually bring this to realization), it would be the perfect life.
Well, if he move to china, where there's still some freedom left. heh.
(note to self: why does my sarcastic jokes always come out like troll posts? Maybe a MIT education would help?)
I don't remember nanotubes being excellent conductors (there are not so many free-floating electrons, so resistance is not as low as other materials), however, for the size they can handle a LOT of current. Because the atomic structure is so strong (this also contributes to the tensile strength), large quantities of electrons flowing does not "knock" atoms from their stable positions off, which would cause serious problems (silicon and copper both are exhibiting this troublesome behavior, and will be more problematic as transisters continue to shrink).
However, there has been recent research that suggest carbon compounds (diamond was it?) can be made to superconduct. It was from Africa, methinks? If that was really possible, nanotubes may have hope.
I would personally think the next big thing should be joseph-junction based (SQUID) computers, which would REALLY kick butt. (natural resonance frequency of 500GHz!)
They are even putting animatronics in these things now...
But it's a LARGE investment. I mean, really large investment - one that you cannot easily hide from other people either.
On the other hand, in Japan Massage Chairs are very popular. I don't see why one would go through the trouble with a robot since those chairs actually do a darn good job at massaging (no it's not the vibrational type - these has wheeled "knockers" that does the massaging).
Not for children, anyway.
Why? because Cecil Adams is very concerned with things like this, this, this, and this. While amusing and informative, I would not want an 8-11 year old exposed to them, especially since YOU ARE GONNA GET INTO TONS OF TROUBLE WITH THEIR PARENTS.
In Word, anyway, whenever you open up something like a text-box, you go back to the default format by microsoft, and normal.dot don't do jack.
so if you open a lot of text boxes (which, btw, is another impossibility without using the mouse - but you can't help it because a lot of stuff you can't do with tables, or not tables in Word anyway), you will be changing fonts ALL the time. (Of course, you can copy and paste existing boxes - but then you have to resize them and replace the text, etc)
This is especially true for flowcharts and the like.
Okay I should be using Visio or something, but don't got the money - and the chart has to be integrated into a document anyhow.
Slashdot Mirror
It's not even an old Joke - I believe it was a quotable thing said by, probably, Micron CEO a while back.
This, if nothing else, shows how thin the DRAM margin is, and why RAMBUS trying to skim 2% *gross* will never fly.
anyway, the point is that by pushing out a large volume, they keep their lines running, which means that they can actually make SOMETHING off those lines and get some kind of profit because the cost of running them things through arn't so damn high. This can be demonstrated by how 512M SODIMMs are 135 at crucial while the 1G SODIMMs are 1000... How much you wanna bet the 1G ones are the real money makers?
That, and you are grabbing market share.
to be honest I am not 100% sure how this works out, but by keeping the lines oiled and running, if it's nothing else, it's preventing the company from losing the *real* big bux.
seems like it's the using confidential information part that got the scrapper capped.
I don't see why accessing *public* information be problematic.
the only thing that may be of trouble is the website EULA, but then the EULA would be saying the same thing as "don't visit my store unless you intend to buy," which would be rediculous in brick-and-mortar world (and should be similarly in cyberspace).
last question, though - why the heck would you ask this kind of stuff HERE? wouldn't a law-forum be a better choice?
okay, I really think you are missing my original intention of asking this question from the perspective of a "average user," or even "slightly above average but still under 3 std-dev on the bell curve kind of user."
otoh, if you need that kind of power in an acedemic environment, clusters might be the real way to go... In my school, we had a cluster that simulated transistor operations (down to the subatomic particle level), and that was a few dozen dual-proc P3s (this was a few years back) with maxed out RAM.
But at the same time, I don't quite think you'd be doing these important stuff on a hacked XP SMP system now, would you =)
I have *personally* never saw any hard evidence about this. anybody have a link / site / whitepaper / definitive source?
Now, it is possible that if the SMP portion of the chip have a failure (stuck transistor in a non critical portion, say), they can still sell it as a XP chip, but I don't see why it would require different *timing restrictions*. Believe it or not, it's still just moving data to and from the memory, and having a dedicated path to each CPU even makes this easier.
Granted there are memory control issues (locking, for example) involved, but cache coherency is handled (AFAIK - though my CPU architecture knowledge is very rusty) pretty much the same as a cache miss, so no big impact there.
So, I can imagine that changing an XP to an MP can get you bad things happening if you are unlucky enough to get a chip with a bad SMP block, but I don't think they would become as unstable as you are suggesting.
aaaanyway. I might be talking out of my ass, though. correct me if somebody knows the real straightdope.
not trolling, but a serious question, coming from a ex-SMP-user:
why SMP nowadays?
Most OS, including XP, is now reasonably stable to the point where multitasking, including buring a CD, while doing something else is OK. (not to mention that CD burners have buffer under-run protection *anyhow* nowadays) I know this because my laptop, which is a measly P3, can handle all of the multitasking I do, given that I have pumped up the amount of RAM.
If I was doing stuff for school / research, Mathematica, Matlab, Maple, Spice (ok not 100% sure on spice) are all single processor only. And to be honest, if you are running a 3-day simulation, you really don't want to be playing UT at the same time on the same machine ANYWAY, so that's kind of a moot point. (you should probably not be playing UT period during such times, but that's a time management story that i won't get into)
If I was doing real work like rendering stuff, I think real work deserves a real SMP system, i.e. with a warrenty.
I mean, SMP has a pretty hefty price overhead (motherboard, memory if you want ECC, and the extra CPU, heavy duty power supply, another set of heatsinks etc), not to mention that the motherboard / chipset technology is usually a few monthes to two years behind the cutting edge stuff...
so, what convincing reason do a person have for using SMP right now (especially a ghetto-rigged one)?
but how would you have became "bored and quit" working on (or, having the *opportunity* to work on) z-pinches and very dangerous stuff that would probably change human society as we know it?
I mean, besides large quantities of sex, I can't quite imagine something I'd more inclined to do compared to playing with things that has the possibility of making a sizable crater in the earth's surface.
As for "out of date information" in a previous post, I would like to add that it is possible to electrostatically confine fusionable plasma by using a circular electrode. I think it was invented by farnsworth (inventor of TV, coincedentally), though sadly like much of Tesla's more enigmatic works, that particular fusion reactor has faded into the dark.
Seems like to counter this problem, Japanese DVD releases are *never* complete. I'll use Evangelion series as an example - but to get all of the footages (including the short live-action one), you'd have to buy something like 4 different editions - and even at usually 40-50 dollars *per*disc*, there are still people doing it - albeit complaining while doing so.
I dunno. Given sufficiently dedicated fans, I think they can make this into a big money making venture, but at a heavy cost (wallet-wise) to the real fans. But anyway, at least Hollywood won't have to suffer (ha!).
That has to be about the most creative name I have ever heard. I do wonder if some chemicals were involved (inhaled, possibly?) during its creation, though. =)
availability, portability, ease of distribution, (add a few more benefits that we'll never see because of the crippling restrictions placed on e-books by adobe and a slew of others).
/. story), - well, I guess everyone can infer their own conclusions.
Heh, considering a large percentage of newspaper people thinks that there will only be electronic news a few years down the line (see previous
I am not at all against the idea of paying money for something I like, and in fact I have watched many of the listed titles via rental - the point I am trying to put across is, though (granted, apparently didn't come through so clearly) is the fact that access control on stuff is very much a pain.
My biggest peeve is that it is darn near impossible to get English subtitled works that were produced here in Japan! That's not to mention the rediculous hoops I would jump through do circumvent the region coding - by buying another DVD player or otherwise.
That's not to mention that Animatrix is not yet released, and dispite a seemingly comprehensive effort to make it to the japanese side (the online trailers have japanese versions, methinks?), there are no possibilities of seeing them on the big screen here (none that I am aware of, anyhow) as during previews or otherwise.
THAT was my point.
but would SOMEBODY please web-cam / tape it and make it available online somewhere?
Some people just can't make it to LA on short notices like this (not to mention it's a week long excursion). Especially (and ironically) people that have to be in Japan during that time, like myself, actually.
In Japan, companies have PHS phones that they can attach to their internal PBX, and the phones would have an internal extention but would work throughout the company even though, say, the place had different locations. It's almost like a miniture cellular network.
The reason I bring it up is because that I can't imagine the 802.11 based phones be any better than this - especially since you would need some serious WAN/VPN between facilities for the phone to work across them. added to the fact that routing and entryption takes a bite of latency, I won't imagine using them is very pleasant at all.
That's not to mention that as far as I remembered, keeping a WiFi connection alive takes magnitudes more power than cellphone technology.
Granted, PHS is not a standard in the US (I actually don't think it's anywhere else), but for this particular usage, I actually think it's pretty cool, and very suited.
btw, PHS is different from cellular in some ways though very similar. I am too sleepy to type them up. For some +informative karma, anybody want's to explain the difference?
So, - what in the world does RAM size has to do with application storage? Last I checked applications / data / whatever are stored in ROM?
And it's interesting that Palm would be able to handle that much RAM - I mean, I still know some full blown computers straddling around with 64M... I won't even talk about the time when 8M was a lot, or when some idiot thought 640k was enough for everyone, and before that when stuff were represeted by holes on paper, and before even that when wooden beads on a frame were used in asia.
anyhoo... can't imagine anything that will take advantage of that much RAM (right now), though, it'd be interesting what comes of it if they tried - Palm don't have the processing power, but if it did, much more powerful software can be written for it.
Otoh - DRAM (I am assuming they are using DRAM for the extra RAM)needs to be refreshed which means that even in standby / whatever, they still draw a non-insignificant amount of power. I am seriously hoping that RAMTRON will get the density up so we can have some MRAM action.
(side note - SRAM draws more juice when operating but uses nearly none when in standby (only leakage current - which on modern cmos is equilavent to counting electrons) - I wonder how does manufactures of PDAs determine which ones to go with, if cost wasn't a issue (with cost an issue DRAM-or-SRAM is not even a question))
Okay, end rant.
I mean, seriously though! They make clothes that (they are called "armors," btw) that will take that kind of abuse and have you come out scratch free.
On the motorcycle side of things, people routinely walk away (bruised, but not seriously harmed otherwise) when they go out of control riding in the lower three digits. And a barstool is what, fastest at 45mph?
I mean, I see them people sitting on the stools, mostly wearing clothes they would go to a bar with - that's suicidal! there is a reason why there are body armors out there, and yes they do work (granted, a few grand for a nice riding suit)
Then again, maybe it's just a way to eliminate people from the gene pool.
Since Phonix / firebird / whatever it will change to will be intergrated into Moz ANYWAY, why not just call it moz.browser and moz.mail and moz.chat or something?
.NET will be named "Windows server family" or some such.
Heck even M$ has realized that keeping up with multiple names and multiple "product images" are silly and effort-consuming, and
i mean, if it's a code name, fine - you use it INTERNALLY and you can call it whatever you want. Seriously though, people...
And on gamefaqs message board has TONS of "is this game too girly" posts.
I think people needs to stop stereotyping things into "girls stuff" vs. "boys stuff," and instead just into "good stuff" and "crappy stuff."
Granted, most gamefaqs kids are in the midst of their teenage-hood so probably still searching for "oneself." But anyhoo - these stereotypes should not be propagated in the first place. I do wonder where they start.
* Corporate lobby (hey, it's a sale-point)
* TIA would be seriously hampered if everyone is very secure
* fear of technology leak into other countries
* other acts of "head-in-ass"
We will outlaw speeding! that'll surely get people to drive safely and stuff.
That said, I guess it's better than having legalized spam. Though, otoh junk fax law applies to spam already anyway, methinks?
I am reminded of a quote from War and Peace - "Everybody can write regulations, but it's finding ways to enforce them that's the difficult / tricky part."
Actually a while back when we (college frat) found out about realdoll, some guy(s) gave them a call, and apparently they had leftover breasts that they are trying to get rid of, for like 20 dollars a pop.
;^)
I mean, none of us had that kind of money back then (food money, after all), but sleeping on a bed of boobs do have its enticing points. Anybody give it a try and post the results? that would be the ULTIMATE bed-mod project.
(for pricing reference, last I checked a "midsection sample" is 1,500 dollars, and a complete doll was over 5,000 - 20 dollars per breast is a steal)
man the guy certainly has a lot of time to meddle with the XBOX...
/.
Talk about a great school...
* Diploma that will get you LARGE amount of cash later
* Research topic is to fiddle around with game console
* Appear to be victim and popularized as sort of a martyr on
Now if you add a dash of sex (point one - mass quantity of money, can usually bring this to realization), it would be the perfect life.
Well, if he move to china, where there's still some freedom left. heh.
(note to self: why does my sarcastic jokes always come out like troll posts? Maybe a MIT education would help?)
I don't remember nanotubes being excellent conductors (there are not so many free-floating electrons, so resistance is not as low as other materials), however, for the size they can handle a LOT of current. Because the atomic structure is so strong (this also contributes to the tensile strength), large quantities of electrons flowing does not "knock" atoms from their stable positions off, which would cause serious problems (silicon and copper both are exhibiting this troublesome behavior, and will be more problematic as transisters continue to shrink).
However, there has been recent research that suggest carbon compounds (diamond was it?) can be made to superconduct. It was from Africa, methinks? If that was really possible, nanotubes may have hope.
I would personally think the next big thing should be joseph-junction based (SQUID) computers, which would REALLY kick butt. (natural resonance frequency of 500GHz!)
I think it was discovered at RPI.
AFAIK Oxygen is necessary for this combustion to take place, so your chips would be safe.
But in the end nobody really knows.
p.s. this has serious implications on the space-elevator, if y'all havn't thought about it already. =)
But it's a LARGE investment. I mean, really large investment - one that you cannot easily hide from other people either.
On the other hand, in Japan Massage Chairs are very popular. I don't see why one would go through the trouble with a robot since those chairs actually do a darn good job at massaging (no it's not the vibrational type - these has wheeled "knockers" that does the massaging).
I think it's much more approporiate to suggest something that informative and *safe*, like an educational site such as Britney Spears guide to Semiconductor Physics.
I'll give you an example.
In Word, anyway, whenever you open up something like a text-box, you go back to the default format by microsoft, and normal.dot don't do jack.
so if you open a lot of text boxes (which, btw, is another impossibility without using the mouse - but you can't help it because a lot of stuff you can't do with tables, or not tables in Word anyway), you will be changing fonts ALL the time. (Of course, you can copy and paste existing boxes - but then you have to resize them and replace the text, etc)
This is especially true for flowcharts and the like.
Okay I should be using Visio or something, but don't got the money - and the chart has to be integrated into a document anyhow.