Palm Memory Maximum Increased

Trillan writes "PalmSource has announced that it has developed a technology for increasing the maximum RAM on a Palm handheld from 16MB to 128MB. Hopefully new devices will come out soon to take advantage of it." This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick. As more and more multimedia apps are written for PalmOS, more storage space only makes sense.

Comments

Erm...

[lingqi]

So, - what in the world does RAM size has to do with application storage? Last I checked applications / data / whatever are stored in ROM?

And it's interesting that Palm would be able to handle that much RAM - I mean, I still know some full blown computers straddling around with 64M... I won't even talk about the time when 8M was a lot, or when some idiot thought 640k was enough for everyone, and before that when stuff were represeted by holes on paper, and before even that when wooden beads on a frame were used in asia.

anyhoo... can't imagine anything that will take advantage of that much RAM (right now), though, it'd be interesting what comes of it if they tried - Palm don't have the processing power, but if it did, much more powerful software can be written for it.

Otoh - DRAM (I am assuming they are using DRAM for the extra RAM)needs to be refreshed which means that even in standby / whatever, they still draw a non-insignificant amount of power. I am seriously hoping that RAMTRON will get the density up so we can have some MRAM action.

(side note - SRAM draws more juice when operating but uses nearly none when in standby (only leakage current - which on modern cmos is equilavent to counting electrons) - I wonder how does manufactures of PDAs determine which ones to go with, if cost wasn't a issue (with cost an issue DRAM-or-SRAM is not even a question))

Okay, end rant.

Re:Erm...

[DiscoOnTheSide]

Not sure if it's changed since I took a stab at programming for the Palm platform, but there's no RAM/ROM division like PocketPCs/PocketLinux PDAs. Programs are run straight from the storage memory, no RAM needed.

Re:Erm...

[gohai]

IMHO (Sony Clié SL10) applications are stored in RAM, just the preinstalled apps (datebook, notes, ...) are stored in FlashROM.

Re:Erm...

[Anonymous Coward]

What? It either is, or it isn't, no opinion is involved.

Re:Erm...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Palm, apparently the really early models (like the Palm Professional I've had since 1997) actually used static RAM, but newer ones use dynamic RAM. On models that use AAA batteries, there is a circuit that steps up the voltage and a pretty powerful capacitor too, so that when you take out the batteries, your memory contents will stay around for quite some time. (An hour, last I tried it.) Apparently, because of the step-up circuit, the capacitor can be kept fully charged even when your (2 x AAA) battery voltage is waaaay down. So, the Palm devices make a valiant effort at keeping power going to the RAM.

I think static RAM was a good choice initially, because the Palm's CPU is actually running only a very small amount of the time. Even when the display is on, the device is in a power-saving mode called "doze" mode until you press a button or something. After a few minutes of inactivity, it goes into a different mode called "sleep" mode, in which current draw goes down even more. So, really, the percentage of the time that the processor is running is really quite small.

Re:Erm...

[vocaro]

Last I checked applications / data / whatever are stored in ROM?

So you put your calendar and datebook contacts into permanent storage... Not much of a social life, huh?

Re:Erm...

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to check out the newest Palms out there.

All the PalmOS 5 pdas available run an ARM compatible processor, usually with a parallel DSP, either on or off chip.

I'm not saying that this is pushing the limits of processing power, but it's definitely got plenty of juice to run standard palm apps while playing mp3s.

If memory serves, my Palm Tungsten T runs a 200 Mhz Texas Instruments with built in DSP functionality.

As to how much memory is needed, the more the better. The 16 megs of internal memory of mine is nearly full of applications and data of various sorts, while my 256 Meg SD Card is nearly full of MP3s.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather see somewhere near 256/384MB on my Palm. With increased dependence on larger media files and interactivity with many databases on many machines, it only makes sense. With desktop ram amounts commonly hitting 1GB for most people, I've always subscribed to using a quarter of that in my portable devices.

However my laptop now is even breaking that rule, with 512MB of RAM. If Palm stop at 128 I fear they could be left behind and soon.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[blancolioni]

BTW, a Palmtop with 128MB RAM should be quite fast - like say, aLinux desktop with 1GB RAM..

Yes, there should be a significant speed boost, just like when you paint a red stripe on your car.

Gee, how innovative

[EmagGeek]

... to add 3 address bits to the Memory bus. wow, that must have been hard...

When sales slump a little more, and their market research indicates people want more RAM, maybe they'll add another address bit.

When are people going to realize that technological innovation ISN'T. Intellectual Property law has completely ended innovation. All we can do is expand, complicate, and repackage, the same damn IP that we invented 10 years ago because we're not allowed to innovate anymore. Even if we could, it wouldn't be worth it because we'd just get sued by some jackass that thinks he invented it first and the lawyers would bleed us dry..

Re:Gee, how innovative

[DrXym]

Maybe Palm has the same problems that the Mac and Amiga had for a while when there was 24 bit addressing - dumb programmers using the unused bits in address registers to store other flags.

Re:Gee, how innovative

[MSTCrow5429]

Eventually, the IP structure, as it currently is and converse to the original design, will crumble, and a freer and more economically dynamic system will prevail. See the USSR, or the current state of the European welfare states.

Re:Gee, how innovative

[Cyclone66]

That's not dumb, it's efficient!!

Re:Gee, how innovative

[Anonymous Coward]

It sure is, until you go to upgrade, which is something they should have been planning on to begin with, either by not using those unused bits to store stuff in the first place or by making it simple to store them elsewhere when the time came.

Re:Gee, how innovative

[poot_rootbeer]

to add 3 address bits to the Memory bus. wow, that must have been hard

Considering that it probably means re-engineering significant portions of the hardware, yeah it probably was fairly hard. Palms are compact devices... before they can add 3 address lines they have to find room to put them in.

All we can do is expand, complicate, and repackage, the same damn IP that we invented 10 years ago

When was this ever NOT the case? All technological innovation, ever, has been based on expansion, maturation, or reworking of existing inventions.

Re:Gee, how innovative

[rcw-work]

Considering that it probably means re-engineering significant portions of the hardware, yeah it probably was fairly hard.

There are lots of things in this world that are hard but straightforward.

Re:Gee, how innovative

[fredrik70]

yeah, but you screw your compability, if a bit is reserved, don't touch it, sooner or later it's gonna be used and then you're screwed.

i'll invest when

[tooninja]

. Handheld Linux OS + Phone + GPS + Camera + Multimedia Capabilities + Wireless + a frickin' laser = a single device (Flip phone size) ... (okay maybe the laser could be an add on) ... but hopefully within 5 years....

Re:i'll invest when

[vano2001]

You can have something similar to that with Sharp Zaurus 5500 / 5600.

Check out http://www.zaurus.com

Except the laser thing.

Re:i'll invest when

[p51d007]

Nope, you can keep all your phone/laser combonations for a future palm......NOW, when they add a can opener, I'm rushing out to invest LOL.....

Re:i'll invest when

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a Symbol handheld - they have built-in lasers (for barcode scanning)

It's for competitiveness against PocketPC

[fer]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

Palmsource is responsible for the PalmOS which is used by both Sony *and* Palm devices. It has nothing to do with flash memory (which is used by both hardware brands).

With this development, all Palmsource licensees including Sony and Palm can use up to 128MB internal memory to remain competitive with PocketPC devices.

Gentoo palm edition.

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost there, but the processor needs some more speed first. It would be EOL'd before stage 1 was finished!

In related news....

[fishbert42]

Intel is planning to unveil later this week a new technological innovation that will increase the maximum amount of RAM their motherboard chipsets can address.
More at 11...

Re:In related news....

[fishbert42]

This just in!
Hard drive capacities are on the rise!

imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

imagine a beo...aergq+t43,.234 [NO CARRIER]

Re:who the hell cares when you'll invest

[Anonymous Coward]

look at the name - it's a chick.

Drug Wars

[phunhippy]

Alright! Now i can really play drug wars game for PalmOS to its fullest!

blah, where's me mod points when I need it? arrrr

[Travoltus]

He's got a point, and this ain't trolling.

(We can tell some Palm, inc. stockholders have mod points today.)
(despite that, I still ain't posting anon.)

Palm already competing with Memory Stick

[Anonymous Coward]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

If that's their plan, then they're doing quite well, since 7 (out of 9) of Palm's current models and at least one of the older models all have an SD Card slot. Some links for more info:

• The Palm product family -- look at the "Expansion Cards" row.
• And a list of expansion cards that are available from Palm. (You can use generic SD Cards from other manufacturers too, of course.)

However, as you might be aware from having used Flash in other circumstances, regular RAM is waaaaaaaay faster than Flash, so breaking the 16MB RAM barrier is a Good Thing(tm).

On a completely different note, why doesn't Slashdot allow me to use HTML entites, so that I could write ™ and get a REAL trademark symbol? Is it that hard? It seems like actually extra work to filter them out!

Re:Palm already competing with Memory Stick

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you can use the HTML entities to inject Javascript and blankness () into the page.

memstick, chemstick

[lexcyber]

I have a 128M SD-card in my palm tungsten T, wich I run alot of application from. I also have some mp3's on it. So what is the point?

Re:memstick, chemstick

[dreadlock9]

Reading from the SD card is a lot slower than reading from internal memeory. In fact, when you run an app from a card, it actually copies it into internal RAM first so it'll run faster.

Re:memstick, chemstick

[ePhil_One]

I have a 128M SD-card in my palm tungsten T, wich I run alot of application from. I also have some mp3's on it. So what is the point?

The point is Slashdot editors are allowing ignorant trolls in story submissions to get through.

The article is (I assume :^) about changes in the Palm OS that allow MAIN MEMORY to expand to 128MB for 16MB. The submitter, clearly having no clue, used his limited knowledge to say "Hey, those Sony gadgets can use proprietary 128MB memory sticks to expand. Ha! Dumb Palm!"; in a clear violation of "Better to hold ones tongue and be thought the fool than to flap ones jaws and remove all doubt". I gave a pass to the 512MB SD card upgrade thats been available since the m50x series of Palm's, shame my Tungsten T's (m550) 256MB SD card isn't as slow, proprietary, and small as the card the poster is bragging about.

But back to the point. The original CPU in the Palm's had an addressing limitation of 8MB. Tricks were later played to allow it access 16MB. Later hacks were added to allow the PalmOS to access external storage, such as memory sticks and SD/MMC cards (Handspring also had their own format, and I believe was the innovator). I'm not sure what the limit on this external storage is, but clearly its > 512MB. But the 16MB is special, since this is where programs run, pointers are held, and anything you want to survive a card swapping live. Palm has recently introduced a new processor with OS5, the Dragonball CPU which is much faster. It emulates the old CPU faster than th eold CPU ran natively, though its not perfect (some stuff don't run), Native software for this CPU FLIES. It also isn't limited by the addressing problems of the old chip, though for the first generation the OS foisted the limitation on the system.

So either of two things have happened. The OS has been updated to allow the new CPU based system to use their improved addressing capabilities (maintaining backwards compatibility, since they are still manufacturing old CPU systems), or the have increased the number of virtual 8MB pages from 2 to 16 (think Intel's PAE extensions)

Re:memstick, chemstick

[llin]

Nit: Palm OS5 is built for ARM cores. While Motorola is marketing their new i.MX chips as part of the DragonBall family, it has to be emphasized that it's completely different from the older 68K based DragonBall chips that Palm was using before.

In fact, Palm Hardware isn't even using Dragonballs anymore, but rather have seem to have picked the TI OMAP ARM chips instead, and Sony has is using Intel XScales for their OS5 PDAs. I believe Garmin is using a Dragonball MXL for their new GPS/Palm doohickey though.

In general, however, I agree: OS5 really makes legacy apps fly. All these hacks of course are stopgaps until the transition to OS6. That'll be a very tricky thing to pull off. I do hope they can though (and that PalmSource manages to learn from their previous architectural mistakes). The involvement of the Be contingent gives me hope, at least on the second count.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhhh,
Just make the pcb with blank pads ready to accept DIY solder on chips. memory is so cheap nowadays, but adding hardware so unused memory can be powed off is not obvious, as is adding an induction charging coil.

Re:well

[dattaway]

more ram = more room for bloat

Not to mention battery life going from weeks to hours.

I have a HP-28S that will go for a year without a change of batteries. Real shame that handhelds need a power grid nearby these days.

RAM / Palm / Pilot

[DarkHelmet]

What's this crap?

I only use my palm when I don't get RAM...

When I get some RAM, my hand gets to rest for a while.

And when I don't get RAM, I use my palm a lot... Sometimes it gets hairy, and I have to shave it. Then I have a Shaved Palm.

I don't know where the Pilot bit came in. I've never RAMmed a pilot before.

I've used my Palm while thinking about a stewardess, but not a Pilot. That's sick.

Re:RAM / Palm / Pilot

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny in its own right, but I near cried when I first saw the name of the Palm Pilot.

When I went to high school in the late 80s, a "palm pilot" was a wanker. someone who masturbated too much. an idiot with his hand on it all the time.

(maybe you had to be there)

Re:RAM / Palm / Pilot

[Anonymous Coward]

masturbation is like bandwidth
there is no such thing as too much

128mb ? Nice... How about 1Gb removable storage?

[Anonymous Coward]

If palm could allow their pda to use the IBM 1Gb micro hdd would be great. 128mb ? How many mp3s, pictures and divx movies can I store ?

I could sure use the 1GB drive !

Could that technology Be called

[t0qer]

BeOS?

Re:Could that technology Be called

[hc000700070007]

or, rather, "Be Internet Appliance"

Close, but note quite.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Palm, there are essentially four kinds of storage:

1. There's the system ROM. The system boots from this. It stores the whole operating system. It's actually flash, but then what isn't these days? Except in rare circumstances, the Flash is never updated. The one exception is that you might once or twice during the life of the system do a major OS upgrade by rewriting the whole system ROM. The system ROM is CPU-addressable memory, meaning it can issue load instructions against it. (Or actually on 68k, they're "move" instructions...)
2. The dynamically allocated memory that's available to applications. This resides in RAM, of course. I'm lumping the stack, the heap, global variables, etc. together here. Also directly CPU-addressable, otherwise how would you have variables in your program? :-)
3. The "databases". The Palm doesn't have files, or actually it does, but it doesn't use them for much and they are an afterthought. Instead, everything is in a "database". This is taken so far that even applications are databases. Their records contain code and other resources they need to run (GUI objects, bitmaps, etc.). Also, the user data is all in databases. Your phone list is a database, your datebook is another, etc., etc. These databases are, for the most part, surprisingly stored on the very same RAM chips as the dynamic data that programs use. Interestingly, the Palm has hardware write protection for this data, though, so even though it runs the good old 68000 instruction set, which is too old to support memory protection in the modern sense, you're still protected if a program goes haywire. It can't accidentally write over your phone list. In order to modify a database, you must go through an API call. Also of interest is the fact that, because important data (applications, all your phone numbers, etc.) is stored in this portion of RAM, when you reboot the Palm, the RAM is not erased. Or at least not that part of it. (Unless you do a cold boot.) So, yes, strange as it may seem, all your important data is stored in plain old RAM for months or years on end.
4. Some Palm models also have removeable flash media. These are much more like a traditional filesystem, with files, directory names, etc. In fact, they are a normal filesystem -- they're good old (!?) FAT. Palm doesn't really have great support for these devices, in that everything for years and years has all been designed to work with databases instead, so the idea of real files is a foreign concept, and most apps can't access them. Of course, there is a complete API for accessing filesystems on the flash if you want to build an application that calls it. Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there. (Remember, applications are stored in databases. In Palm terminology, a PRC is sort of just a special case of a PDB.)

So, to sum things up, yes, programs are run straight from storage memory, but storage memory happens to be RAM, although the operating system goes to a lot of trouble to mentally keep that RAM separate from the "regular" RAM (used in the traditional way), which is important because all that RAM is really coming from the same pool.

Re:Close, but note quite.

[MythosTraecer]

Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there.

The OS allows you to store both read-only and read-write databases on the memory cards, just like on a disk drive. But in order to write to a file on a card, you have to use the VFS API rather than the standard PDB access routines. Several add-on programs allow apps that don't support VFS to get read-only access to databases on cards. These add-ons can't provide write access because it would be impossible without causing data corruption on the card. But this read-only limitation is the fault of the application for not supporting VFS. The OS will let you freely read and write to memory cards until your heart's content. You just have to use VFS.

You are right in that apps can be stored on memory cards. But the Application Launcher you're using must support VFS (or you must use another add-on program); otherwise, you won't be able to see the app's icon in your App Launcher!

I'm a "chick" too racist fuck

[Anonymous Coward]

so shut up

Re:I'm a "chick" too racist fuck

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a "chick" too racist fuck

How is "chick" racist? Oh... you must mean chicken. Ok, well, I'm all for equal rights of all living creatures...

Caching

[rf0]

I wonder if they can use the memory to cache any say incoming streams rather than having swap space

Rus

Why not improve Graffiti instead?

[bdhein]

I mean seriously here. If they could make data entry more efficeint, it's pretty difficult to use for a left handed person, and slow for righties.

Instead of just improving specifications, why not improve the product design itself?

Re:Why not improve Graffiti instead?

[mdfst13]

Why are these mutually exclusive? Why can't they add support for more memory and improve Graffiti at the same time? It's not like you can take an engineer who can change the hardware and OS to support more memory and just have them start coding a heavily AI based app like writing recognition.

Real companies work at improving all their products at the same time.

Memorysticks aren't RAM.

[wfberg]

Sony Clie handhelds run the PalmOS. The memorysticks are used for storage, not RAM, as PalmOS can't use that much memory for RAM. Which is part of the reason why they're extending PalmOS.

Re:Memorysticks aren't RAM.

[brian728s]

I used to have a visor dlx (which ran palm os). I got an adapter for it to use compact flash which had advantages and disadvantages. It was slow to read from, and even slower to write to (The bottleneck was the handheld). It also required me to get a third party launcher to run programs off of it. However, I could store any file type on it, and I even had software to read jpegs and wavs. It also let me backup my internal ram (8mb) to the compact flash card in case it got erased. I think that having more ram on palm os devices it great, but don't take away flash memory options. They have their important uses too.

Will marvels never cease?

[g4dget]

With innovations like these, the future is truly bright. My, we haven't had this kind of creative thinking since people added extended memory hacks to DOS. World hunger is sure to end soon.

it's for marketing competitiveness

[g4dget]

Adding 128M to Palm doesn't make it the equivalent of even WinCE (which itself is nothing to write home about): Palm memory management is, and remains, pathetic.

Both Palm and Microsoft love churning out these messed up, non-standard APIs because it ties programmers to them and creates a market niche. The messier the API, the better, as long as a company has a captive developer population.

From a purely technical point of view, both systems should be relegated to the dustbin of history and replaced with a decent POSIX-compatible kernel (Linux, QNX, whatever).

Re:it's for marketing competitiveness

[tzanger]

Actually I found Palm's memory handling quite logical -- you're writing for a platform with a slow but energy-miserly processor and small amount of memory. Why bog it down with unnecessary memory buffers memory reorganization?

Access all memory as handles and lock what you need only when you need it. It's a pain in the arse compared to the normal "memory's always there and can be used as if it's never going to run out" but in the context I mentioned above, it's really not too bad. You work within your constraints.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[g4dget]

You've got to be kidding. Linux has been tuned so extensively that it has very little overhead over the raw hardware; Palm is unlikely to come even close in terms of performance.

The real question is why PalmOS is such a pathetic mess on that kind of hardware. PalmOS gives you the programming experience and APIs of a low-end DOS machine on CPUs that are perfectly capable of running a full UNIX workstation environment.

a technology?

[Mr2cents]

or a hack?

Re:a technology?

[John_Booty]

You mean a kludge? :P

moron having yOUR 'memorIEs' bullown..

[Anonymous Coward]

up yOUR .asp, buy Godless greed/fear based payper liesense hostage ransom stock markup FUDgePeddlers, such .asp can be found DOWt at gov.va.msn.?net?, (VAST)?

lookout bullow. run for your options, should you have any left? after all of this phonIE ?pr? bullshipping scammage settles, we'll be fortunate to have ANY accurate 'memorIEs'.

lookout bullow. &, as always, consult with yOUR creator regarding matters of the heart/mind/wallet.

...Send Coffee

[Njerd]

In my pre coffee morning stupor I read the headline as "Pain Memory Maximum Increased". That's some tech I can live without. "It's like high school but without the drugs".

"Palm Maximum Memory Increased"?

[elixx]

Does this mean that I can write more phone numbers on my hand?

I want a PDA, not a laptop

[mousse-man]

Different devices for different needs. I still have an old (or better: now antique) Palm IIIc for my PDA needs. It does everything perfectly. I can download mail, I can even browse the web in a limited way, I have my phone numbers and even a game or two, and some ebooks to read. I want that device to be usable when I'm away from the grid. For a whole day. To effectively work with a keyboard, type this article, do some scripting and java programming, I have a notebook with all possible gadgets and softwares that will fit on a 40 GB disk (with Linux, as we know, an "awful lot" (c) by mousse-man 2003). I can watch multimedia stuff on it, can use Mozilla and other memory hogs, and I have a second battery in the DVD-ROM bay when I'm away from the grid, giving me approx 4.5 hours of work time. That's why I keep my old Palm and haven't bought a Sharp Zaurus - it won't work more than 3 or four hours at a time without recharging. Just one advantage the Zaurus has is all that fancy free software. If somebody makes a Zaurus that lives on little power, a smaller footprint than the current model, I might be tempted to test it since I'm a bit of a Linux zealot... :) Getting a Palm to have more than 8 MB of RAM won't have any benefit for me as I don't even use 6 MB. And I use my palm as calendar, address book, and a for a few other applications and references.

Dictionaries & AvantGo-I want a PDA, not a la

[Malc]

The big items on my Palm are a dictionary (5MB), and AvantGo (2MB). Both of these could be improved with more memory. I haven't even fully realised the potential of my M515, and it's already sitting at 12MB used.

You mean something like...

[TheRealRamone]

Graffiti2 ???

Whoop-de-doo

[metamatic]

Now, if only they can find a technological innovation that'll let them make a Palm device with a decent size screen. Say, a device about the size of a paperback book. That way e-books might actually have a chance of catching on.

Re:Whoop-de-doo

[Anonymous Coward]

mmmm, then they'll have to rename it

Lap?

Probably used for Palm's new Tungsten C

[abischof]

This is probably used for the new Tungsten C (to be released at the end of this month, so they say). In addition to integrated WiFi (w00t!) and a 400 MHz processor, it's also said to include at least 32 MB RAM.

Re:Probably used for Palm's new Tungsten C

[PortWineBoy]

Too bad the links in the Tungsten C story to Staples and Amazon listings didn't work. If they are going to beef this model up to 128 MB RAM it would be very nice to get at the price of $499. And props to palminfocenter for being awake enough to avoid a /.ing

POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

Both Palm and Microsoft love churning out these messed up, non-standard APIs because it ties programmers to them and creates a market niche. The messier the API, the better, as long as a company has a captive developer population.

Palm's API is clean, intelligent, and well-designed for its intended purpose (a PDA). The tools to develop for it are readily available and it's a very good interface.

From a purely technical point of view, both systems should be relegated to the dustbin of history and replaced with a decent POSIX-compatible kernel (Linux, QNX, whatever).

This is the kind of Linux-on-everything idiocy that makes my head hurt. Linux is great for some things and complete crap for others. A POSIX-compatible kernel is completely inappropriate for a Palm-style handheld. Have you ever tried to write a GUI-based Othello program that's 15K long on Linux? How about a 47K full scientific calculator? And those are big programs compared to many PalmOS apps.

It's that I-have-a-hammer-so-every-solution-involves-a-nail kind of thinking that has ruined many embedded systems. The PalmOS devices continue to be successful because they don't try to cram some variant of Unix or Windows in them and, instead, stick to an OS that is appropriate. As a result, the devices meet users' needs for speed, storage, and battery life. If you Linux pushers had your way, PalmOS handhelds would need faster CPUs, far more RAM, and would drain batteries so fast that Rayovac shares would jump up 50%.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[tzanger]

The PalmOS devices continue to be successful because they don't try to cram some variant of Unix or Windows in them and, instead, stick to an OS that is appropriate.

Actually I don't consider Palm all that successful anymore. Power-hungry colour screens, MP3/voice capabilities, cameras, wireless... They are running into the PocketPC/Zaurus arena and they will fail because their API was never meant to handle these things.

IMO, my Palm Vx (well maybe the m500 because it has the SD/MMC port) was the pinnacle of Palm's capabilities. More rugged than the plastic cases before them, enough memory to hit the 95% of what people want, easily 8-15 days runtime on a single charge and a clean, unencumbered API.

If you want an ultraportable computer, get yourself a PocketPC, Zaurus (I have one of these too) or even those mini Sony Vaios. If you want a PDA, get the Palm Vx or m500. They are for totally different markets.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

Palm's API is clean, intelligent, and well-designed for its intended purpose (a PDA).

Palm's intended purpose these days is to compete in the consumer and enterprise markets. Even if you could make an argument that its pathetic excuse for APIs was "well designed" for the handful of PDA functions that Palm originally had, Palm OS 4/5 just is a no-go there because programmers aren't going to go back to what amounts to a 16 bit segmented architecture. Even Palm understands this, which is why they are rewriting things.

A POSIX-compatible kernel is completely inappropriate for a Palm-style handheld. Have you ever tried to write a GUI-based Othello program that's 15K long on Linux? How about a 47K full scientific calculator?

I used to do graphics programming on PDP-11s; those things had a 64k address space and ran somewhere in the single digit MHz range. So, yes, I have written GUI apps that, by necessity, used that little memory. Of course, why one needs to undergo that kind of self-flagellation on a 175MHz RISC processor with 16M of RAM is somewhat beyond me. I mean, are you planning on running 1000 simultaneous copies of Othello (fat chance that PalmOS wouldn't crash first anyway). And with all that "efficiency", why is PalmOS actually so damned slow? I mean, I could grep faster on a PDP-11 than the search function on my Palm.

Incidentally, my first personal UNIX machine had a 20MHz processor, 4M of RAM, and ran X11 plus many command line tools we still get today.

You see, the UNIX APIs were well-designed: they scale from 16 bit machines to 64 bit machines and let you take full advantage of the capabilities. If you give them a Gbyte of memory to play with, users can fill it with applications, images, and other stuff. If it needs to run in a few hundred kbytes of memory, it can do that, too. That is unlike incompetent attempts like DOS, Windows, or PalmOS which need rewriting every time the wind shifts.

It's that I-have-a-hammer-so-every-solution-involves-a-nail kind of thinking that has ruined many embedded systems. If you Linux pushers had your way, PalmOS handhelds would need faster CPUs, far more RAM, and would drain batteries so fast that Rayovac shares would jump up 50%.

If "us UNIX/POSIX pushers" had our way, handhelds would get by with a fraction of the power and resources that they are using, and they wouldn't require major OS and application rewrites every couple of years.

The notion that something like the Tungsten T is a dainty little machine that is too delicate to UNIX/Linux is just ridiculous. I mean, were you born yesterday? The T|T has more CPU power and memory than UNIX workstations from the early 1990s.

It's only people like you and the PalmOS developers who are completely ignorant of history and keep reinventing the wheel--badly.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Minna Kirai]

POSIX-compatible kernel is completely inappropriate for a Palm-style handheld.

It takes much more than a kernel to be POSIX compatible. Using Linux in no way implies all the POSIX miscellany (although that's what the other poster wanted).

However, the more important point is that new PDAs being designed today are not "Palm style" handhelds. Today's new hardware is completely different from the 1996 PalmPilots. A minimalist, single-tasking, manual allocation API that was fine for scraping along in 1 megabyte of RAM becomes a drawback moving into a future of 64+ megabytes and always-on WiFi networking. Analogies to MS-DOS and the hardware evolution from 086 to Pentium are fully applicable.

How about a 47K full scientific calculator?

Ok, is 23k acceptable? (opie-calculator) And if it had been targeted for a smaller device, with a 160x160 2 bit screen instead of something better than 1991-era VGA, the size would be even smaller. Games for a more powerful PDA like a PocketPC or Zaurus will often use around 8 times as much graphical data than a minimalist Palm version. The programmers could reduce that storage use if they wanted, but they feel customers demand the artwork.

Let me mention that the Zaurus is a bad PDA, because Sharp bought to fully into the idea that providing an interface basically compatible with desktop Unix (POSIX + Qt) would magically provide them with a suite of great PIM applications. But they ignored good old-fashioned listening to the customers and watching the competition. The fact that desktop-like programming worked on the device lead them to ship naively developed programs that, while functioning, were not intuitive, fast, or scalable. And the color screen let them draw pretty icons and shaded buttons that become unreadable in normal lighting conditions, where a monochrome Palm is still somewhat legible.

The root of the Zaurus problem is that the manufacturer neither paid developers for continual software improvements in response to customer feedback, nor fully open-sourced their code to permit "community" upgrades. It's taken more than a year for the open-source replacement software to become adequate, and the Zaurus lost a big opportunity for marketshare in that time.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Malor]

But back then, weren't "Unix workstations" mostly "Unix dumb terminals"? Even a 386 is fine for a remote X display, as long as you are running the programs on another computer. The Palm, on the other hand, has to be entirely self-contained.

I do agree with you that it should be faster, though. I have a Palm 3X, which I believe has a 16Mhz processor. An 8Mhz 68000 Mac, running a much larger screen, was more responsive than this little guy is. I like it anyway, but your comments re:efficiency are probably accurate.

Remember, too -- software always lags behind hardware. The hardware dev cycle on PDAs has been a *lot* faster than on desktops, but they've still covered much of the same ground.... from 16mhz up to whatever they're running now. (did you say 175 already? wow.) DOS didn't move real fast for a long time either, as I recall.

And Linux was ported to the Palm in the early years -- but it never went anywhere, presumably because it simply wasn't CPU/memory efficient enough to DO anything. Linux on a PDA might make sense *now*, but it really didn't back then. If it had, it would have made more of an impact.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Realistic_Dragon]

175? My Zaurus has a 200mhz arm, and the new one has a 400mhz xscale.

The next version (2004) is going to have an 800mhz xscale in it, as well as 256mb of ram! That would have significantly outperformed most computers in use in 2002 and been a top end spec in 2000.

(And the screen is better (on the xscale400 model) than that on many current laptops as well, smaller, but you can still get more information onto it in a readable format.)

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[PD]

I've been running Linux since June 1993. The first box I put it on was a 386/SX at 20 mhz, with 4 megs of RAM. It ran decently, and I used it like that for a long time as a development box.

Before that, my dorm had an AT&T 3B2 in the basement. That machine was slower than the 386SX, and it supported 16 users. Ironically, the terminals were smart graphics terms, with 68000 CPUs inside. The main box ran an AMD 32K processor. I think the hard disk was 32 megs or something like that. UNIX workstations definitely weren't just dumb terminals. All the processing happened on that little 3B2. All 16 users, plus whoever logged in from their rooms over a modem.

That PALM should be able to run UNIX, and support 16 users. It's got many more horses.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Dr. Manhattan]

A minimalist, single-tasking, manual allocation API that was fine for scraping along in 1 megabyte of RAM becomes a drawback moving into a future of 64+ megabytes and always-on WiFi networking.

I like my Palm IIIxe, and I've even developed programs for it, but I agree that Palm has needed to add some kind of multitasking in for quite a while. Ironically, the kernel that PalmOS is based on is a real-time, multithreaded OS, but the license agreement that Palm made only allows applications to use a single thread.

There's even a fairly elegant extension Palm could implement if they chose, that would give at least co-operative multitasking. But they haven't done it, even in OS 5.

I still enjoy using my Palm, and though I'd love features like the Zaurus, I enjoy 1-3 month battery life. That's worth a lot right there.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

You brought up a lot of good points, but one thing is wrong or at least misleading, you say that a "a 175MHz RISC processor with 16M of RAM" should without a doubt be able to run a *nix. This isn't really right because RAM is used differently in a Palm that it is in most computers because the vast majority of that RAM is for data storage, you see Palms have no ROM, all data stored on a palm is stored in RAM. So it a Palm with 16MB isn't at all equivocable with a desktop that has 16MB of RAM. Even if a *nix ported to the palm used more than of the memory as dynamic storage for applications data than Palm OS 5 (which I think uses like 256K) it wouldn't really make sense to have it use more than a meg or so of RAM.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[PD]

Oops. It was an AMD 29K processor. Information on the 29030 Information on the 29000 processor

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[TheLink]

Yah. I can remember years ago my old workplace used to run a 486/66 48MB novell 3.12 server.

And it served 50 users. Users were happy with it. In fact when we switched to a 200MHz PPro NT with more ram (192MB?), RAID5, it seemed to run slower. Maybe it was the RAID5. Nah.

Whatever it is, the PDAs nowadays have lotsa power. So do the phones.

Maybe Apple should revisit the Newton?

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[ElGuapoGolf]

My Zaurus has that too....

However, the next version will suck just as much as this version. Throwing RAM/CPU at it won't make up for the fact that the onboard applications just suck.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

But back then, weren't "Unix workstations" mostly "Unix dumb terminals"? Even a 386 is fine for a remote X display, as long as you are running the programs on another computer.

No, back then, there was one UNIX machine supporting many users on dumb terminals. Think "your Palm with 32 users" all running different applications at the same time.

UNIX workstations presented a breakthrough in comparison by giving a single user the stunning computational power of a Palm handheld all to themselves. But that workstation had to run the window system, the operating system, and all the applications. And it did, quite well, actually.

Remember, too -- software always lags behind hardware. The hardware dev cycle on PDAs has been a *lot* faster than on desktops, but they've still covered much of the same ground.... from 16mhz up to whatever they're running now. (did you say 175 already? wow.) DOS didn't move real fast for a long time either, as I recall.

That's my point: the PDA software is lagging unnecessarily--by about 20 years--because companies like Palm are reinventing the wheel.

And Linux was ported to the Palm in the early years -- but it never went anywhere, presumably because it simply wasn't CPU/memory efficient enough to DO anything. Linux on a PDA might make sense *now*, but it really didn't back then. If it had, it would have made more of an impact.

No, the reason was that the Palm hardware didn't have memory management, which meant it was too different of a target from the regular 32 bit machines that Linux was meant for. But there were/are plenty of POSIX kernels that run on that kind of hardware. Performance-wise, there was no problem.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Minna Kirai]

I'd love features like the Zaurus, I enjoy 1-3 month battery life.

I feel that one of the big marketing oversights Sharp made with the Zaurus is failing to produce an "entry-level" model. Their first Linux Zaurus product cost nearly $400 at launch, because of high-end features- which are actually detriments to some buyers. The gorgeous color screen made battery-life horrible, and the physical QWERTY keyboard made it bulkier than any Palm or PocketPC.

Releasing a greyscale, no-keyboard model would've increased their marketshare by enticing buyers who value mobile uptime and portability. And, a little extra developer mindshare could've gone a long way towards increasing the number of 3rd party apps supporting the product line.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

Of course, why one needs to undergo that kind of self-flagellation on a 175MHz RISC processor with 16M of RAM is somewhat beyond me.

Do you think that PalmOS devices come with hard drives? You create small apps because the don't just run in RAM, they are stored there too. And it's not "self-flagellation." Using off-the-shelf C compilers and tools, you naturally get a tiny application on the Palm. That's an example of a good API.

Your ignorance is showing again. The Palm Zire, a current, low-end Palm handheld, has 2MB of RAM. So, tell me Mr. Unix, how do you propose running Linux, X11, and storing all of your applications and data in 2MB of RAM?

Incidentally, my first personal UNIX machine had a 20MHz processor, 4M of RAM, and ran X11 plus many command line tools we still get today.

My first hard-drive based computer had a 4mhz Z80 CPU, 64K of RAM, and spoke over a serial port. I've probably been in this industry longer than you have and I've specialized in embedded systems almost the entire time. I also know that X11 is not a GUI. It's a communications standard for remote graphics display. That's why you always see something like KDE, Gnome, CDE, etc. running on top of it.

If "us UNIX/POSIX pushers" had our way, handhelds would get by with a fraction of the power and resources that they are using, and they wouldn't require major OS and application rewrites every couple of years.

That's complete bull****. The PalmOS is far more efficient with memory and compute cycles than Linux is. X11 can take 10 to 20 megabytes alone -- and Palm Zire I mentioned earlier has 2 megabytes of RAM.

Linux has countless proponents all over the world. The Palm hardware is well-understood. So, if it's so desirable in a handheld, why has no one ported Linux to a Palm?

I mean, were you born yesterday? The T|T has more CPU power and memory than UNIX workstations from the early 1990s.

It's only people like you and the PalmOS developers who are completely ignorant of history and keep reinventing the wheel--badly.

I have been in this industry since 1980 doing embedded systems work. I'm smart enough know that you can't measure compute speed in mhz. You, apparently, don't know that. I also know that you can take two Handspring Visor Neos of different vintages and see drastically different speeds despite using the same CPU at the same clock speed. I understand that memory isn't free, CPU clock speed isn't free, and you pay a price both at purchase time and later in battery life.

There have been several attempts to create PDAs that ran Linux. They were invariably expensive, large, heavy, and had short battery life. And they failed in the marketplace.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

That's fine: give it 4M of working RAM for the kernel and all applications and you still have 12M of disk storage. Linux is happy.

However, Palm could, of course, simply include flash memory in the device (8M would be plenty for a Linux system and user data). The reason they don't is more that their OS isn't architected to run from it in the first place.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[p3d0]

In fairness, when discussing Linux, bringing up the PDP-11 is not really fair, because Linux would be nowhere close to running on that machine. I don't think you can build a Linux kernel smaller than 300kb, let alone 64kb (though it might be fun to try).

But I take your point regarding how "unsuitable" the POSIX APIs are for small machines.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Realistic_Dragon]

Which ones suck so badly? Hancom office is pretty good, and Opera is excellent. Good enough that I took them with me when I moved to OZ3.2 anyway. Handwriting recognition is, IMO, better than the palms and there are no serious gaps in the software library. Show me another palm top on which I can run octave, qplot (or similar) and everything else covered by Opie* and then something else I need and you may have a point, but I doubt that you can.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Malor]

Well, things have changed a little since then, too.

I was running Linux in a similar timeframe on very similar hardware. You essentially couldn't do web browsing with it (web browsing was very new at the time): Mosaic was slow as dirt on that hardware. I think the lack of a FP proc slowed it to unbearable levels -- it was something about rendering the fonts, I think. ANYTHING in X was DOG slow. It ran, which was pretty amazing, but it was sluggish as hell.

My Palm (16Mhz, 8mb) might be able to run 16 users on a 0.9 kernel, in text mode, with everyone running tin and pine. But it would be dog slow trying to do graphics, much less a heavy-overhead protocol like X -- AFAIK, there's no video acceleration. Dunno if you remember, but the S3 chips that did acceleration made a HUGE difference in how the machine felt.

Obviously, an 800mhz processor (as long as it's reasonably efficient per clock) with 128MB of RAM is going to run Linux quite nicely. The only limit would really be the amount of disk-like storage available.

But holding the designers of the Palm series responsible for not using Linux or QNX in the first place is wrongheaded, IMO -- those systems weren't a good fit at the time. Had they implemented one of those OSes as their kernel, they'd have had a gigantic flop, and some OTHER company with a small, simple OS would have prospered instead.

Designing for the future is great, but first you have to HAVE a future.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[ElGuapoGolf]

Here goes...

Hancom Office is dreadful. Try importing something with a few tables and bullets. Seriously... it just doesn't cut it.

Opera is good. It's even better on my Psion tho.

Battery life on the Zaurus is, and continues to be, a weak point. My psion can go weeks between chargings. Palms do the same (last I checked). I can go into double digits for hours of straight usage, same for palms (same disclaimer). I know I can't do that with my Zaurus.

And there's nearly as much stuff available for the Psion as there is for the zaurus. I don't know what those apps are which you're talking about, but there may be similar apps. If there aren't, you can run Linux on the Psion. 'Tho I wouldn't do that.

I run Linux on my desktop. I love it. I tried it on my handheld and discovered it just isn't ready yet.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, the thing is that 16MB isn't really the standard size, I think that's the minimum clie memory size, but I believe palm is still making palms with as little as 2MB of memory. Since the cheaper palms are what people are more likely, plus in the past the majority of palms have had less than 16MB of RAM I'd estimate that something like 90% of the palms that are in use have less than 16MB of RAM and maybe 70% have less than 8MB. So while it might be cool for somebody to do, a lot of people still wouldn't be able to use it.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm's API is clean, intelligent, and well-designed for its intended purpose

No it isn't. It's a brain-dead regurgitation of the old 1980s callback-based forms management framework, and the operating system itself could be out-engineered by a 2nd year CS student.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[firewood]

The notion that something like the Tungsten T is a dainty little machine that is too delicate to UNIX/Linux is just ridiculous. I mean, were you born yesterday? The T|T has more CPU power and memory than UNIX workstations from the early 1990s.

The UNIX API's are not suitable for PDA purposes because they do not take into consideration the power constraints.

On handhelds, the CPU MHz, the percentage of time the CPU needs to run vs. napping, the cache footprint and memory bandwidth required by running applications, the number and depth of pixels that need to be refreshed, and the number of bytes of DRAM that need to be refreshed, all directly affect the useful battery life.

Just because the CPU performance and the amount of DRAM of a PalmOS 5/6 handheld is greater than that of high-end workstations of a few years back, doesn't mean the battery amp-hours have also scaled to match.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[darc]

Are you utterly crazed? Unix APIs are totally unfit for use in a Palm architecture type system. The Tungten T class handheld that you use as an example is totally off base.

It's a HIGH END machine, in fact, Palm's flagship handheld. In fact, it is the only machine in Palm's repritore even capable of running a POSIX compliant kernel.

The majority of existing handhelds are 16mhz Dragonball 68k processors that can't possibly run your kernel correctly because they lack a MMU. Perhaps the Tungsten T is not a dainty machine, but look at the Palm V, the mainstream system. 20mhz, no MMU.

UNIX is great for some things, but get them the hell away from my handheld.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

No it isn't. It's a brain-dead regurgitation of the old 1980s callback-based forms management framework, and the operating system itself could be out-engineered by a 2nd year CS student.

You are wrong and the rich set of applications proves it. Many developers have found the PalmOS to be an easy platform to develop for. The applications are compact. The performance is good (given the CPU horsepower and the limited mass storage/RAM). The device is stable. I would dare say that the average PalmOS device crashes less often than the average Linux workstation.

The best OS is the one that works best for the application. PalmOS fits that bill well. You youngsters seem to think that the best OS is one that is the most elegant and powerful. Wrong. I don't want to have to get a microdrive for a handheld and I don't want 2 hour battery life. That rules out Linux as a real contender in this arena.

So keep your desktop OSs on the desktop and leave the embedded system development to us professionals.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

So, tell me Mr. Unix, how do you propose running Linux, X11, and storing all of your applications and data in 2MB of RAM?

I don't know why you keep blabbing on about "Linux+X11". I said Palm should be using POSIX APIs; there are plenty of POSIX kernels. Do you understand the difference between an API and a specific implementation? Oh, wait, no, you obviously don't.

The Palm Zire, a current, low-end Palm handheld, has 2MB of RAM.

And why do you think that is? Because it would cost a couple of dollars more to put 16M into that machine? Because 16M would consume a fraction more power? No. It's because that's the way Palm is dividing their market. If they put 16M on the Zire, they wouldn't be able to sell as many high-end machines.

X11 can take 10 to 20 megabytes alone

Yeah, and it can take 100Mbytes, or even 1Gbyte. That's because it, gasp, allocates memory for an application when asked to and when it's available. An X11 server can also do all its magic in a few hundred kbytes of memory. Not that it has anything to do with our argument because I wasn't actually proposing running X11 on something like a Zire.

Linux has countless proponents all over the world. The Palm hardware is well-understood. So, if it's so desirable in a handheld, why has no one ported Linux to a Palm?

It has been ported, but the 68k hardware lacked memory management. Newer Palm hardware is just way overpriced--why port to a T|T if you can port to a h1910 that's cheaper, smaller, lighter, and has a nicer screen?

I have been in this industry since 1980 doing embedded systems work. I'm smart enough know that you can't measure compute speed in mhz.

You apparently know little about UNIX, POSIX, Linux, or X11, and keep confusing them. You think that a 16 bit, unsafe, segmented memory architecture is just fine. And you don't even see that Palm is, in fact, busily at work trying to get rid of their outdated and messy OS because they themselves realize that they can't survive on Zire. If you do embedded systems work, you have given us an object lesson in why so many embedded systems suck so badly: you don't know what you are doing, and you have no long-term perspective.

There have been several attempts to create PDAs that ran Linux. They were invariably expensive, large, heavy, and had short battery life.

The Agenda VR was a smaller and nicer machine than the Palms at the time. Of course, its software never had the benefit of having several years of user feedback and hacking, so it just couldn't catch up with Palm.

And they failed in the marketplace.

Just remember that when Microsoft and Sony eat Palm's lunch because, as we all know, the market is so good at picking nice technology, right?

Face it, PalmOS is like DOS: a poorly engineered, unoriginal system that happened to be in the right place at the right time to make it big in the market. The one thing Palm got right was decent end-user applications (which is why I'm actually still using an old Palm).

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

The UNIX API's are not suitable for PDA purposes because they do not take into consideration the power constraints.

Oh? Elaborate on that pearl of wisdom, please. What is "unsuitable" about "read" or "open"?

Just because the CPU performance and the amount of DRAM of a PalmOS 5/6 handheld is greater than that of high-end workstations of a few years back, doesn't mean the battery amp-hours have also scaled to match.

I guess I must be imagining anybody playing audio or video files on something like the T|T.

And, in any case, even if that were true, what would it have to do with using an embedded POSIX kernel or even a Linux kernel? Embedded POSIX or Linux kernels don't sit their keeping the CPU busy for fun. When there is nothing to do for a Linux kernel and the CPU supports it, it goes into power saving mode, just like any other kernel for battery-operated devices.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

Yes, though my point was that if they had stuck with POSIX(-like) APIs, moving from something like the original Palms to the T|T wouldn't be such a pain. In fact, they could now choose between Linux, QNX, and other systems.

In fact, even with non-POSIX APIs, if they had looked ahead a little and designed APIs that could have scaled up, Palm wouldn't have the problems they are having.

Note that there are small versions of the Linux kernel (here). They even run on the Dragonball Palms.

Also, if you like, you can still get 2.9BSD and even a PDP-11 emulator to run it on (here).

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

I don't know why you keep blabbing on about "Linux+X11".

Because you brought it up:

Incidentally, my first personal UNIX machine had a 20MHz processor, 4M of RAM, and ran X11 plus many command line tools we still get today.

Since you were trying to say that the Palm hardware had adequate horsepower for the task and you brought up X11, what was I supposed to think you meant? It's not like you proposed any other graphics API.

You think that a 16 bit, unsafe, segmented memory architecture is just fine.

Yes, I do. It's just fine in many embedded applications including PDAs. My setback thermostat does fine with that. So do three GPSs that I have. So does my fishfinder. My Handspring Visor does not seem to have problems with applications stepping all over one another and corrupting the OS or one another.

If you do embedded systems work, you have given us an object lesson in why so many embedded systems suck so badly: you don't know what you are doing, and you have no long-term perspective.

That would have really hurt if I (or anyone) respected your opinions. If you are typical of U.S. engineers, it's obvious why so many jobs are going over to India and Pakistan. You are so dense that you can't understand that Palm's use RAM for both storage and program execution. You are so ignorant of marketing that you can't perceive that a $99 price point machine is important and that you can't put a 175mhz RISC CPU and 16MB of RAM in it and sell it for $99. You spout off about "POSIX", "Linux", "QNX", etc. without even the slightest thought about how any of those things would work in a PDA.

The Agenda VR was a smaller and nicer machine than the Palms at the time.

Yeah, it was real nice. Just look at an excerpt from this review of the Agenda:

The first thing you notice about the performance of the VR3, is that it is a little on the slow side when opening applications or drawing menus once they're tapped with your stylus. It might be a second or two before you see your Datebook or Contacts list fully drawn on the screen and ready to accept events.

The whole Agenda VR3 experience goes okay right up to the point you want to start doing more than one thing at a time. Depending on how many applications are already running, you might be waiting anywhere from a few seconds to around a minute for your other application to start up or register your input. For instance, at one point I've run Launchpad, the Status Bar, a couple applications, and a terminal window. Trying to switch back and forth between applications with the status bar proved to be unnaturally slow. Menus would take tens of seconds to appear, and by that time, I had already pressed the menu a second time, which would cause it to collapse.

I will admit that the minute-wait scenario does not happen ALL the time, but it's occurred often enough for me in the last few days that I've had to swallow my Linux pride, turn the device over, and press the reset button.

There. Now you see how well Linux works on a PDA.

Of course, its software never had the benefit of having several years of user feedback and hacking, so it just couldn't catch up with Palm.

Quit making excuses. The Agenda failed because it was saddled with Linux and all of the overhead that Linux entails. That made the Agenda slow and unresponsive. Oh, and by the way, the Agenda was about double the size of a Palm V due to it being .8" thick vs. the Palm V's .4" thick. Battery life was disappointing at best and only a fraction as long as the Palm V. And the Palm V was out two years before the Agenda.

Just remember that when Microsoft and Sony eat Palm's lunch because, as we all know, the market is so good at picking nice technology, right?

Sony's handhelds use PalmOS. So, how does that toe-cheese taste?

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[firewood]

What is "unsuitable" about "read" or "open"?

Reading and writing memory is an expensive operation in terms of power (often far more expensive than CPU cycles). open() usually requires a file system, a level of indirection thay may require touching more memory. read() usually involves a copy, which costs power. read() is also usually missing a specified timeout parameter, which means either the UI may not be responsive, or separate thread must remain active to watch for activity. And thread switches usually impact cache locality, which again costs in power due to memory writes in flushing and memory reads in refilling the cache.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

You can make up things or quote things out of context till you're blue in the face. But two simple points remain:

• Palm is engaging in a complete rewrite of PalmOS and developers have to rewrite their applications to take advantage of the new capabilities.
• Whatever justifications there may have been for Palm's design decisions on the original Palm are irrelevant. They are going for a high-end market now, and they don't have an OS to match.

The only reason Palm is still hanging on is because of developer inertia.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

You can make up things

What did I make up?

or quote things out of context

What did I quote out of context?

They are going for a high-end market now, and they don't have an OS to match.

So, you admit that the original OS was suitable for the market at which it was aimed? If so, we've made some progress.

The only reason Palm is still hanging on is because of developer inertia.

Palm is still "hanging on" because their PDAs suit the needs of many users. I admit that their latest offerings are not very attractive from a price/features standpoint, but Sony's PalmOS handhelds (I love rubbing that in) are looking quite attractive.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

Merely having those system calls doesn't consume extra power. Using them may or may not.

In terms of responsiveness, I'm sorry, but the argument that POSIX I/O makes systems unresponsive is just silly: not only could you use threads, you can use timeouts, check for available data, or use asynchronous I/O. That is as opposed to the Palm, where the machine becomes catatonic during long operations.

In any case, look at where Palm is now: an emulated CPU and multithreaded OS, together with a big backwards compatibility hassle on their hands. Do you really want to make an argument that PalmOS5 is better for handhelds in terms of battery life, memory footprint, or responsiveness than a decent embedded kernel? I just don't think so.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

Yeah, it was real nice. Just look at an excerpt from this review of the Agenda [uni-potsdam.de]: There. Now you see how well Linux works on a PDA.

The review for the Agenda VR is entirely accurate. However, the the Palms available at the time were slower, less responsive, and crashed more.

You see, unlike you, I have actually used the various systems. All of the handhelds are compromises. Functionally, the Linux-based ones are about as bad or good as the alternatives. The difference is that they don't require software rewrites every few years and don't tie you to a single vendors.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

So, you admit that the original OS was suitable for the market at which it was aimed? If so, we've made some progress.

Of course, the OS was "suitable" for its original market and purpose--I never disputed that. But there are many ways of writing a "suitable" OS for even the 128k Palm, and Palm picked one of the technically worst ways, a way that requires them to do a major rewrite of the OS and applications to port it to ARM.

The problem with PalmOS is not its (lack of) suitability to the hardware it was originally designed from, the problem with PalmOS was that it was written without any sense of future hardware or future needs in mind.

I admit that their latest offerings are not very attractive from a price/features standpoint

Actually, I think that the $80 Zire is a good offering: small, light, and inexpensive, and it runs an OS designed for that kind of hardware. The design mistakes in the OS don't matter because that hardware is close to what the OS was designed for.

but Sony's PalmOS handhelds (I love rubbing that in)

Yes, you like to bask in the glory of your limited understanding; I'm way ahead of you.Of course, Sony is a PalmOS licensee (I have a Sony handheld as well). But they are still eating Palm's lunch. Perhaps you have missed that Palm and PalmSource are different companies. Perhaps you don't quite understand that Sony can do what they do by shipping a different OS from PalmIS (that is, the take the PalmOS source and hack it up), and by adding all sorts of non-PalmOS embedded chips and software around PalmOS.

are looking quite attractive.

You mean "big power-hungry bricks"? Sony stands for everyting Palm proponents claim they didn't want in a handheld. The iPaq series looks a whole lot nicer to me, and they are cheaper to boot.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

The review for the Agenda VR is entirely accurate. However, the the Palms available at the time were slower, less responsive, and crashed more.

That is simply incorrect. I have never tried to start an app on an Palm and had it take around a minute for [my] other application to start up or register [my] input as the review stated. The reviewer was well aware of Palms and even mentioned them, so if the performance of the Agenda was comparable, then the author would not have dinged the Agenda so hard for performance.

You see, unlike you, I have actually used the various systems.

I can read, so I did not have a need to use an Agenda to know that it was slow and unresponsive. Quit being such a smarmy bastard.

The difference is that they don't require software rewrites every few years and don't tie you to a single vendors.

I have applications on my current Handspring Visor that I originally used on a Palm Pilot Professional (512K RAM). [sarcasm]We all know that you can take any Linux binary and put it on any Linux system and it will work just fine.[/sarcasm]

Tied to a single vendor? I can get PalmOS PDAs from Palm, Handspring, and Sony. I can get cell phones from Samsung and Kyocera that incorporate a PalmOS-based PDA. I can get a barcode scanner in a PalmOS PDA from Symbol. For the most part, an appliation written for one will work on the others. How many Agenda VR3-compatible PDAs were there on the market?

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

The review for the Agenda VR is entirely accurate. However, the the Palms available at the time were slower, less responsive, and crashed more.

That is simply incorrect. I have never tried to start an app on an Palm and had it take around a minute for [my] other application to start up or register [my] input as the review stated.

That's because the Palm Pilots we had at the time weren't even capable of starting up multiple applications at the same time.

Again, the Agenda VR UI was not as mature as the Palm UI at the time--after all, it was little more than a beta release. That meant people could do stupid things with it, like start up too many applications. But its applications ran fine, and about as fast as Palm apps.

I have applications on my current Handspring Visor that I originally used on a Palm Pilot Professional (512K RAM).

Yup, and they will work exactly like they did on that machine, in all their 160x160 pixelated glory, knowing nothing about flash memory or anything else that has happened since then.

We all know that you can take any Linux binary and put it on any Linux system and it will work just fine.

Yes, we do all know that: the Linux kernel API has been exceptionally stable.

But you keep missing the point: it's not about binary backwards compatibility, which any idiot can achieve with enough determination (Microsoft managed to do it even for DOS), it's about designing kernels and software systems that scale up and are future-proof.

Tied to a single vendor?

To a single OS vendor.

I can get PalmOS PDAs from Palm, Handspring, and Sony. I can get cell phones from Samsung and Kyocera that incorporate a PalmOS-based PDA.

Yes, the same argument has been made for DOS, and Windows, IBM, and MacDonald's food. But just because something has managed to take over a market doesn't mean it's technically good. Quite to the contrary: technically inferior designs often win in the market for well-understood reasons.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

That's because the Palm Pilots we had at the time weren't even capable of starting up multiple applications at the same time.

Who cares? It's a PDA! You start an app, switch to another, and switch back. Everything remains in the last state in which it was when it was running. It's simple and elegant. It's not like I'm going to be running SETI at Home on a PDA.

Yup, and they will work exactly like they did on that machine, in all their 160x160 pixelated glory, knowing nothing about flash memory or anything else that has happened since then.

Again, who cares? I have a modern laptop for when I need a portable computer with high resolution, color, speed, storage, etc. The PalmOS machines are not intended as replacements for traditional computers.

Yes, the same argument has been made for DOS, and Windows, IBM, and MacDonald's food.

What argument? I was countering your claim that PalmOS tied you to a single vendor.

Despite all of your Linux fanaticism (and misstatements), you have yet to provide a compelling argument in favor of putting Linux on a PDA. It has a larger memory footprint than PalmOS. It requires far more CPU cycles. It will reduce battery life. It will kill off the low-end $99 machines. And it does not answer a significant need.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

Yes, you like to bask in the glory of your limited understanding

I usually don't stoop to this level, but "fuck you."

I am your intellectual superior and you are just a self-impressed twit that bandies buzzwords around. Grow up.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[g4dget]

Who cares?

Palm cares. That's why they are doing a big rewrite for PalmOS 6.

What argument? I was countering your claim that PalmOS tied you to a single vendor.

PalmOS comes from a single vendor only.

It has a larger memory footprint than PalmOS. It requires far more CPU cycles. It will reduce battery life. It will kill off the low-end $99 machines. And it does not answer a significant need.

As if PalmOS 5/6 is going to run on a Zire.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

Palm cares. That's why they are doing a big rewrite for PalmOS 6.

All that Palm cares about is profit. If they think that something will be popular, then they will sell it -- whether there is a technical need for it or not.

PalmOS comes from a single vendor only.

But I am not a purchaser of PalmOS. I am a PDA purchaser and PalmOS does not tie me to a single vendor. I could choose any number of PalmOS PDAs from multiple vendors.

Your flood of illogic is simply astounding. Here are some examples of absurd claims that you have made:

Because Palm PDAs use PalmOS, Palm will be clobbered by Microsoft, a company that does not sell PDAs, and by Sony, a company that sells PalmOS PDAs.

"[T]he $80 Zire is a good offering: small, light, and inexpensive, and it runs an OS designed for that kind of hardware" so the OS should be changed and the Zire replaced with something that has an order of magnitude more RAM, a much faster CPU, is larger, heavier, and expensive.

You can make up things or quote things out of context till you're blue in the face but I won't be able to tell you what you allegedly made up or quoted out of context.

PalmOS uses a 16 bit, unsafe, segmented memory architecture and that's bad. I just can't say how, since PalmOS devices have legendary stability, miniscule application sizes, and wholly satisfactory performance.

Palm makes terrible technical decisions regarding their operating system, so their decision to rewrite PalmOS 6 to be more like what I advocate proves that I am right.

Despite being twice as big as contemporary Palm offerings and having horrendously unresponsive, unpolished software, the Agenda was smaller and nicer than the Palm machines.

---

I can't keep going or my head will explode...

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

All that Palm cares about is profit.

And that is exactly my point: they optimize for profit. If doing something right costs more or takes six months more to get to market, they won't do it.

I can't keep going or my head will explode...

Oh, please do: that's the only thing your head seems to be good for.

Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer.

[fmaxwell]

And that is exactly my point: they optimize for profit. If doing something right costs more or takes six months more to get to market, they won't do it.

I thought your point was that POSIX was the one, true answer for all PDAs.

By the way, good job of ignoring your absurd contradictions.

Oh, please do: that's the only thing your head seems to be good for.

When people want good head, they can always go to you.

Market Matured?

[jmichaelg]

I'm thinking "so what?" I don't want a PDA to be anything but a PDA that runs virtually forever on a charge. I'm on my third PDA only because I wore out the first two.

For me that's it - the only reason I'll buy another PDA is when the one I have dies. What I have does exactly what I bought it for - don't need any whizbang, battery-draining geegaws on it.

So maybe that's why Palm is hurting - they've sold their equipment to everyone who's willing to fork a few hundred dollars for an electronic rolodex/calendar/calculator. For everyone else, it's a device that's either too expensive compared to manual methods or they just don't need to be organized - their organic memories are good enough.

Re:Market Matured?

[Belgand]

Well... I guess if that's all you use it for then it isn't really useful. I don't though. I look at it as more of a small, low-storage, palmtop computer. Sure I use it to keep track of things, but I'm far more likely to use it to read the news or a book, keep a database of movie times, play games, store useful data, and a number of other things. I'd say that I use the calender and address book least of anything on it.

Now if the Palm platform offered more features much like the PocketPC lines but without the various problems of the PocketPC lines they might start pulling up a bit. I do think they may have gotten mired down in the idea of simply using it as an organizer themselves though, which is a shame.

MMPlayer for Palm

[datrus]

Checkout mmplayer.com.

I'm trying to develop a mobile media player that supports most codecs, formats and protocols.

I think this will be most useful when finished.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[jonabbey]

But Linux is generally tuned for a more capable class of hardware. Current Palm devices devote most of their RAM to long term storage.. stack and heap are extremely limited. A full-up Linux system with shared libraries, multitasking, graphics, etc., etc., wouldn't fit comfortably in a system with 2, 8, or even 16 megs combined heap, stack, and long-term storage.

When you're talking about a handheld with 32, 64, or 128 megabytes of RAM, you really can start to do those things with Linux well, but Palm started out with 128k of combined heap, stack, and long-term storage..

Re:128mb ? Nice... How about 1Gb removable storage

[wdb]

Uhmm, TRG (now HandEra) has provided that capability for several years.

rgds,
-wdb

Re:Oops... by any chance

[MSTCrow5429]

Having more RAM in Palm's is not going to do anything for the speed, as they don't have the slow storage/fast storage split that PCs do. In the Palm world, everything is stored and worked with in RAM. It could even make them slower, I know that with the V and Vx, the 2MB version was slightly faster in some areas, as it had less RAM to scan when loading and working with applications.

Bring on the bloat!

[psychopenguin]

Wow, very cool that they are modernizing this platform more to support this much memory. However, I gotta think that someday I'll look back and miss the days when I had apps on my pilot that would run in infinitesimal amounts of memory. I actually have one of the original Pilot PDAs (yeah, even before they caled them palm pilots). IIRC it had something like 256k of memory. Unfortunately, I don't think the thing even runs anymore.

Speaking of which, anyone interested in buy a legacy PDA? :)

Announcement is Significant

[Coppit]

This announcement that Palm OS 5.2.1 can handle more memory comes just before the new Palm Tungsten C is rumored to be released. The T|C is supposed to have 64MB of memory and run--you guessed it--OS 5.2.1.

Here is the original leak, and here is one for sale on Ebay. The thing is supposed to retail for $499 on the 25th, but some dumbass is willing to pay an extra $300 to get it a couple days earlier. Anyway, Quill Corp, Amazon, and Staples all jumped the gun with listings for the product but have since removed them.

I for one am going to snap one up on Wednesday. It's got a hi-res color display, 64MB of RAM, a thumbboard (which I like), a 400MHz Intel XScale chip, no exterior antenna, and best of all... 802.11b. (No, damn it, I don't want to pay a stupid monthly bill for your wireless service when I can get it just about anywhere I work away from the office.)

Least innovative company award

[Codex The Sloth]

This is totally true. Palm, as a company, is doomed because they have done nothing but sit on their asses and crank out the same products without any innovation. Look at the palms you can buy today versus the ones that came out in the mid-90s. Not a lot of progress is it? Same applications, a little more memory but it is available in several snappy colors! I hate Pocket PC for their upgrade policies (new version -- better buy a new device!) and their "lets-put-a-watered-down-version-of-windows-on-a-h andheld" philosophy but at least they're trying to improve the damn thing...

Help a less techie person out with an important Q.

[Mogomra]

Does this mean that they can finally port Nethack to the Palm?

Re:Oops... by any chance

[g4dget]

But Linux is generally tuned for a more capable class of hardware.

More capable than what? A T|T is more capable than most Linux machines a few years ago.

A full-up Linux system with shared libraries, multitasking, graphics, etc., etc., wouldn't fit comfortably in a system with 2, 8, or even 16 megs combined heap, stack, and long-term storage.

Why not? Tom's rescue disk gives you a recent bootable Linux kernel and a pretty complete command line environment on a single 1.4M floppy (including vi, command line editing, networking utilities, and other stuff). Of course, for a handheld, we are talking Linux kernel together with a different kind of user environment.

but Palm started out with 128k of combined heap, stack, and long-term storage..

I'm not sure what that has to do with whether PalmOS would beat Linux in terms of performance.

But yes, 128k is too small for a regular Linux kernel, but other UNIX-like systems do work in space that small. The question arises still whether Palm's quick-time-to-market and corporate success is worth the years and years of backwards compatibility woes for developers. I don't think so: Palm has to take the blame for what they did.

Battery life consequences?

[brianjcain]

Refreshing all that memory has got to be hell on the device's battery life. Unless they've devised some clever way to ignore unallocated memory.

I had a monopolistic vortex idea

[CrazyJim0]

Monopolistic vorticies are ideas that when turned on, cause people to need your product in such a way that everyone needs it, and at the same time competitors can not be born.

This particular idea was infared scheduling.

You know how you have headaches scheduling?

Well simply enter in your free time, with a weight, and beam all the PDAs data between each other, and you have a few options for meeting times.

It saves time scheduling, but removes the "I'm more important than you factor", unless you want to add it in, or let the 'important guy' dictate which of the proposed times to use.

Everyone will need a PDA so meetings go faster. People on the road will need this PDA, like a nerd needs magic cards. Schedule a buisness meeting in 10 seconds on a conferance trip? Invaluable. If you don't have a PDA, you're gonna likely have the meeting time dictated to you, and not look cool.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[jonabbey]

But yes, 128k is too small for a regular Linux kernel, but other UNIX-like systems do work in space that small. The question arises still whether Palm's quick-time-to-market and corporate success is worth the years and years of backwards compatibility woes for developers. I don't think so: Palm has to take the blame for what they did.

Backwards compatibility is the only reason that Palm has the market share they do. Same thing with IA32 processors and all flavors of Windows. Windows kicked the Mac's ass because it could run DOS apps on old-school PC hardware. No one cares about that now, but Windows couldn't have succeeded as well as it did if it weren't compatible when it counted.

See Linus' Comments on this recently on the LKML.

My HP-48 does a lot better than that

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought it in 1988. It has had two sets of batteries so far. And the current set is still going strong.

Until recently, they'd have to convince Motorolla

[iamacat]

Dragonball can only address 16M of RAM. Of course now that Palm uses ARM, they probably didn't have to do anything besides insert a larger memory chip.

Still, they'll need to come up with multitasking and other features of modern OS to use so much memory effectively. Now, it's basically DOS style programming, complete with malloc() limit of 64K. Embedded Linux running old apps in a silver box anyone?

Blank? Like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thesaurus, Dictionary, Languages, References

[cgenman]

Agreed, a Thesaurus (4mb) and Avant Go (2MB) eat up the main chunk of RAM available on my device, but there is also a Japanese Dictionary (5 MB), a Spanish Dictionary (3 MB), a Perl developer's guide (3MB), an HTML with Style Sheets guide (4MB) that need to be swapped on and off quite frequently. 128MB of ram could easily be filled with the reference material available online, and would be a compelling reason to upgrade.

Re:Thesaurus, Dictionary, Languages, References

[Rob Simpson]

Yeah, the extra RAM would be nice... I've got almost 40 megs of medical software on my card - being able to store it all in RAM would speed things up a bit. Unfortunately, I suspect that this will only be available for the new StrongARM power-gobbling multimedia devices which get 3 or 4 hours of battery life at best...

Capacitor Strength

[silentbozo]

I don't know if it is because of variability in the capacitors, age, or unstrength batteries, but in my Pilot 5000 (yes, an original USR Pilot 5000, upgraded with the 2mb IR card), I often lose my main memory if I swap batteries at the 2.3v-2.4v level.

So, while some palms may successfully hold their charge while you swap batteries, don't count on it. Always remember to hotsync your unit before changing batteries...

PalmOS or Symbian?

[jonr]

My next 'phone' will be either Palm-based Tungsten or Symbian-based Ericsson/Nokia. Which one to get?
The Palm has thousends of applications and games, but Symbian has Repton, and is more 'modern'. GPRS here is surprisingly cheap, so I'm looking forward to use it, since I don't talk much on the phone.
Choices, choices....

Ignorance of Palm/PalmSource/Sony and Palm OS

[MythosTraecer]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

This shows a complete ignorance of Palm, PalmSource, Sony, and Palm OS itself.

PalmSource, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for Palm OS, announced this change to Palm OS because it's an important change. The previous 16MB limit was a holdover from older OS versions that ran on the 16/32-bit hybrid DragonBall (68328) processors. ARM processors have no such limitation. This change really should have been in Palm OS 5.0.

Palm Solutions Group, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for making Palm-brand handhelds, has little control over PalmSource, and can only make suggestions about what goes into Palm OS. Sony and Palm SG have about the same amount of influence over Palm OS now. Soon Palm, Inc. will be split into 2 completely seperate companies, and this distinction will be more clear to outsiders.

No version of Palm OS natively uses removable memory as RAM. Memory Sticks, SD, MMC, and CompactFlash cards are all accessed by using the VFS (Virtual File System) Manager API, which has been in PalmSource's Palm OS since version 4.0. VFS treats cards like removable drives, and files on cards must be accessed in a completely different way than databases in main memory. However, there are several programs that allow some directories on cards to be treated like RAM, allowing programs without VFS support some access to files on memory cards. Most of these only allow read-only access, though some work around this by copying the file from the memory card to RAM when it is accessed.

(Although VFS was added to PalmSource's Palm OS in version 4.0, Sony actually came up with most of the original API for its own version 3.5S. And HandEra (then TRG) actually predated both Sony and PalmSource's VFS API with a completely different "FFS" API for the CompactFlash slot on its TRGpro.)

Re:Ignorance of Palm/PalmSource/Sony and Palm OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a minor correction -- you can access some CompactFlash cards without VFS. (Like in the Handspring models.) The Palm thinks of its onboard memory as card 0, but there can theoretically be card 1, 2, etc.

Their VFS layer is an obnoxious pain.

Scores: -1

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another lame linux zealot.
There are other far superior PDA's out there.

Just one correction...

[Trillan]

The system ROM is not *always* flash. The lower end devices tend to be real ROM.

Also... you probably know this, but you didn't mention it: The built in applications are stored in ROM. Except on Sony models -- they store a lot of their junk in database RAM. On a modern Sony device 16MB probably translates to 12-14MB or so.

Expandable Memory?

[Anonymous Coward]

Palms already have expandable memory to answer the memory stick... my Palm m130 has a 128mb secure digital card in it right now.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[Trillan]

The real question is why PalmOS is such a pathetic mess on that kind of hardware. PalmOS gives you the programming experience and APIs of a low-end DOS machine on CPUs that are perfectly capable of running a full UNIX workstation environment.

Pardon me, but I don't think you've ever actually programmed the Palm. The Palm OS SDK is the cleanest SDK I've dealt with. The functions are very logically named and organized. Comparing it to DOS is insane. DOS didn't even really have an API, just a couple interrupts and low mem variables which development tool engineers built runtime libraries over.

A better comparison might be the classic Macintosh SDK, but designed by people who had already experienced the pain that Macintosh APIs grew into. The Palm has opaque objects, logical names, constants for everything, and a really well thought out event/notification model.

The great fault I find with it is the lack of standard C functions -- which makes sense, since you wouldn't want to include even a small subset of it with each Palm application. I've found most of those can be mapped to Palm OS traps with a simple #define, though.

Now, if you're not really talking about the APIs but the lack of threading for user applications... that's a licensing issue with the kernel, which I think is going to be replaced with Palm OS 6.

(Frankly, I'm a bit worried about this. It's possible to really screw things up with bad threading code, and I bet a lot of the shareware developers don't really understand threading very well. As part of being so easy to program, the Palm has attracted some programmers who don't really understand what they're doing. I hope PalmSource codes their OS to treat applications as potentially destructive code and does it well. They've done a really good job protecting RAM, but threading is another animal entirely.)

Extra uses for memory

[Trillan]

I store a lot of reference materials in my Clie. Things like recepie and drink databases. I'd like to store a full dictionary in there, but it's a bit small for that. I've written a program that stores a database of people in RAM. And, of course, I'd like to be able to keep a few pictures in there. My Clie doubles as a (crappy -- it's a older model) digital camera. Add it all up, and I could use about 20 MB of RAM at the moment. With a camera with better resolution, I would need more.

Gigabytes of storage aren't necessary, but I'm glad that we'll see new Palm handhelds go past 16 MB. You needn't worry about battery life suddenly dropping to unusable levels. That has always been a priority to Palm.

Neither.

[Trillan]

The requirements for phones and handheld computers are opposed. What makes a good phone makes a crappy handheld, and what makes a good handheld makes a crappy phone. This should be intuitively obvioous, but a great many people miss it: Consider the simple example jotting down a phone number someone it giving you over the phone, for instance. Or consider the size of phone you want to work with, compared with how small you want to write.

Instead, purchase two devices: A handheld and a phone. Make sure both have Bluetooth. This gives you the functionality of a combo device but without profile or multitasking compromises.

Re:128mb ? Nice... How about 1Gb removable storage

[iamhassi]

Well, considering the Divx movies only need to be 320x320 to match the screen's resolution, probably an entire 2 hour movie, and that's if a Palm has the processing power to decode a DivX video. If that's not enough then you can always slip in a SD memory card.

You guys are missing the point. The Palm really was never meant to play movies, mp3s, or even display pictures, so the fact that all of those are now possible is quite amazing.

Also remember this is a seven-fold increase over the largest Palm memory size so far. Imagine if the current largest hard drive was increased seven times, 250gigs to 1.75 tera, and sold for the roughly the same price as the 250gig drive? Puts it more in perspective doesn't it?

Not quite...

[Rob Simpson]

...since most palms have some sort of flash memory card support (SD in Palm, Memory Stick in Clie, Compact Flash in Handera). More memory would allow more programs to be stored in the (much faster) RAM. I'm not sure if it would speed up programs on the flash memory - I think it would, since programs loaded once seem to load much faster if they're loaded again after being used once (eg, 4 seconds the first time, 2 seconds the next). Anyone know if the palm OS has caching?

Why is Graffiti 2 an improvement?

[Trillan]

I've been wondering this for a while. It doesn't really seem to have any advantages over Graffiti, save for being a bit easier to learn.

I think of it more as a "satisfy the lawyers" change than an improvement.

P.D.*Assistants* and MP3s and New Apps

[billstewart]

A PDA is a Personal Digital Assistance - What do you want digital help with today? For a lot of people, playing MP3s is a digital activity they'd like help with, and 16MB of memory just doesn't cut it - the 128MB is marginally enough. Depending on what other new applications people want to develop, they might or might not be able to fit them in Palm's atrociously limited applications memory, and if this makes it easier to develop new cool apps, they win.

Some of the potential new applications you might create if you had more memory include transporting documents around; those little 64MB USB memory frobs can do that almost as well. If a PDA had a VGA adapter and Powerpoint-like applications on it, it could let me leave the laptop at home or the office when I'm going out to visit customers, but I'm not aware of any that do.

My big frustration with the Palm as a Digital Assistant is that memos are limited to 4kb. My old Psion 3a had 32kb documents, which were almost always big enough for a month's worth of all my random notes, and I could type fast enough on its little keyboard to take good telephone notes; 4kb usually doesn't get me through a month, and there's no efficient way to search it, and it only lasts that long because Graffiti is slower than typing (even though I'm pretty good at Graffiti), so I don't write as much. But 8MB has also been more than enough for what I've used it for, and I keep half a dozen ebooks on it for reading on the train as well as my notes.

It's not storage, you Miss America contestant

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not storage, you Miss America contestant, it's main memory. 128 MB of maximum memory to directly access.

Adding data to ROMs?

[astroview]

Would it be possible to add "data ROMS" where PDAs could come with ROMs with dictionaries, thesaurui, maps, and books a la Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?

I think it would be a great way to add extra utility to PDAs and people wouldn't have to use up precious limited RAM and save on memory cards. is this feasible?

Re:Adding data to ROMs?

[JDWTopGuy]

According to the book, you'd need more than 128MB to store the whole Hitchhiker's Guide, and don't gimme nothing' about gzip or bzip2.

Or did you just mean the book about the guide?

Wow.. all praise Palm

[billcopc]

So great, Palm just discovered the breakthrough of 'paging'. They're just using an 8-bit index to a 16mb page frame. Wee.

Re: Memo Restriction & VGA for slides

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey ... just a quick note:
I don't think that the memo application was intented to store large amounts of text.

That's why one of the first really useful inventions for the Pilot was the Doc Reader (you currently use for reading your books in I guess), and soon to follow applications that could write to it (QED, ZDocm, ...). It is a mental trip to make but I don't think a very big one.

as for VGA adaptors, I think they currently only make them for those 'wince' machines, which is OK if you are OK with the shorter battery life, slightly harder and clunkier interface (but not by that much - you could get used to it), and some of the latest devices are really quite small (check out HP's latest cheap device).

As I am on a roll for expressing my opinions, I also think that MP3 playing is pretty much 'cutting edge' stuff which I won't think of as standard until it eats up less battery juice, and either cards become cheaper, or 10GB cards come out at a reasonable price that I can store my favorite CD's on to listen to. It will happen - just have to be patient.

they just need 1 more thing...

[Nerd-o-mancer]

I swear, if they started putting those mini HDD's in palms, so that storage could even get into the 1-2 gig range, id almost rather drop 1k on a nice wince based handheld than a laptop for college. they already run word, and if all you are gonna do is basic in-class note taking and u already have a desktop machine in your room, laptops are practically relegated to the high powered biz execs who can pay the premium for the extra power... ok, so maybe thats a few years down the line, but not having 2 lug a backpack et. al. to class, really has its upside, especially when your primary mode of transportation is a bicycle.

I can't wait to...

[Wargames]

install OS/2 Warp in a virtual machine under Linux running on my Visor under .Net Server 2003.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason for the lack of many of the C lib functions is as follows. On the origional devices wth very limited RAM the designers decided why have a copy of this code in every program. So they put it in ROM and accesses it with traps.

Re:Oops... by any chance

[Trillan]

True. My problem is more that the mapping files are fairly incomplete.