Thanks for posting the view from afar. I will try to explain further the attitude on this side of the pond.
"United We Stand Divided We Fall" is built into our heritage. Just because we stand united against an enemy (regarldess of circumstances) does not mean we are becoming a bunch of mindless drones. Thats why we have freedom of speech here (not that you don't) and thats what makes democracy so great. We can criticize our government, even in times like these. Of course, now you do have to take into account the circumstances and show a little couth. Thats true in everyday life as well. If you're girlfriend had gained 20 lbs you wouldn't say "man you're a fat@ss".... you might say something like "hey baby, how about we both go on a diet... my pants are a little tight and I want someone to help me out"
The point is we just have to take into account 9/11, but we can still say whatever we want. So please don't confuse nationalism with patriotism. Nationalism has the bad stigma patriotism does not. Please do not confuse the two. America is still a rational people and we will still use common sense.
Well it would be cool, but the video chipset is a Savage4. As you know not the most competitive 3D chipset. Now if this was with the integrated nVidia chipset I would defnitely say "LAN Party".
JOhn
Re:The lagging might stop...
on
Palm OS Spinoff
·
· Score: 2
Really? Perhaps you could elaborate? I'm just a dumbass and I don't know what compatibility means.
Now just how big are the changes? Of course, there will be driver level changes for different displays, etc.. but the API? Can you give me any sort of proof there is "alot of under hood changes" going on or are you just passing on "knowl3dge" you learned on IRC. In a more radical view of "alot of changes" do you really think Handspring rewrote the PalmOS from the ground up to change "whats under the hood" and kept the same API? Come on...
I'm more than happy to hear comments from people in the know on API changes. Or perhaps even just a reference to substantiate a claim. But just passing on info cuz you think its right and then adding stupid endings like "its called compatiblity" to make yourself seem smarter doesn't add much to the circle of knowledge. If you work for Handspring, Sony, Handera, or even just know cuz you program on Palm Pilots please enlighten us. On the other hand if you are a troll and add a sentence in which you enlighten the slashdot community about "compatibility" then please refrain.
JOhn
Re:The lagging might stop...
on
Palm OS Spinoff
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I have done some programming on the Handspring and I didn't notice any heavy customizations. The OS was entirely the same except for a few extensions (try and catch API) for the Springboard slot. The rest was vanilla PalmOS. Thats the way it should be and thats what makes it completely compatible with all PalmOS applications. So in my opinion there is no substantial retrofit. Just an extension. This is of course, from an application programmers point of view, not a porting programmer that designed the OS. Any dissenting and enlightening views are appreciated.
The applications I have seen VLIW succeed in are high bandwidth multimedia applications. Although, I don't think its a mainstream card a company called Equator makes a video encoding card that uses VLIW technology. The PDF for the card is here. There are several other manufacturers of high speed video encoders that use VLIW designs as well.
I'm not sure how the market shakedown is going to work, but we will have to move beyond the x86 if we want to see continued performance gains. There are only so many tweaks that one can do. Is VLIW the right choice? We'll see... in the meantime I'm sure AMD will enjoy a ripe stomping until the VLIW compilers and developer tools are mature.
It rocks, and now that version 0.6.1 does tables...
What? I can't believe anyone seriously considered a browser that didn't use tables. Every site uses tables and tables have been a part of Netscape since like I can remember (NS 1.0B9). Well at least Dillo has tables now. What else have they added? Image support? hehe.. just giving you a hard time.
I don't know the specifics of the DMCA, but I don't believe any form of encryption was broken into. I don't believe that reverse engineering a protocol through trial and error is illegal. However, circumventing a security / encryption mechanism is. Please feel free to correct any discrepancies.
And if you own a Handspring Visor you can get a springboard module for External IR. The External IR is much stronger than Internal IR, but hardly ever necessary. The only time I would recommend buying the module is for Visor Edge models. I have an Edge and it doesn't work reliably for much further than 5'. You can see Pacific Neotek's tests here.
So I'm kind if in the market for External IR, but I'll wait til the latest version of OmniRemote comes out first (in beta now.. and has been for an eternity).
Well I guess hard is a very relative term. Hard crpto is not hard to make either if you encrypt the plain text with one method, then encrypt the encrypted output. Double encryption where the methods are unknown is a real beach... at least for me anyway. Then again I'm not the NSA..
I have kept my e-mail signature the same for over three years, but on the day of the WTC attacks I changed it to this quote. I think now more than ever we are in danger of losing the encryption war. Besides back door or not the criminal isn't playing fair. They will use their own encryption mechanisms. Its not hard to make one. Then again you all knew this.
JOhn
Re:hacker help ?
on
More WTC News
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I suppose becoming a techno terrorist yourself is the remedy? Since when is terrorism condoned? Why are you targeting innocent middle eastern civilians? Terrorism is evil because it targets civilians. Trust me, you will not affect the terrorists in any way with your hacks. If you remember Bin Laden doesn't even have telephone access much less Internet.
This stupid terrorist mentality is what we have to fight both on our side and theirs. I live in the Richardson, TX (just outside of Dallas) and we have a few idiots prancing around here shooting up mosques. Fools.. no better than the damn terrorists. I feel sorry for the innocent Arab ****AMERICANS**** cuz of a witch hunt by a few ignorant trash bastards.
All I have to say is thanks to everyone at Slashdot for doing such a great job. Not just the Slashcrew who kept Slashdot alive during tremendous traffic, but to the many contributors that make this place a great community of information and a tremendous resource to us all.
When ABC, CNN, and FoxNews were down Slashdot was there to disseminate mirrors, other official and unnoficial news sites (BBC, etc..), and countless valuable info. I know the servers were a little stressed, but overall I think this is a testament to the planning of the Slashdot site (network, servers, admins, VA Linux, etc..) and shows how the major news sites can learn a thing or two from us nerds:)
I completely agree with you. Luckily, these nypost guys are only editors and don't run our nation. As a matter of fact I don't believe the nypost is all that great of a newspaper. In any case, those who are too quick to judge should remember Oklahoma. Then, like now, the papers were screaming Bin Laden's name and jumping all over Arabs, but when a white boy showed up I'm sure Bin Laden had the last laugh. Racial profiling on a national scale anyone? Its funny how papers bitch at cops for doing the same thing. Perhaps they shouldn't be such hypocrites.
Note: Not all media outlets are doing racial profiling. As a matter of fact, I have heard many radio, and new shows who have gone out of their way to not profile Arabs. Kudos to the ethical media!
I sometimes think that the Feds allow the papers, or maybe even bait the papers into posting this anti-arabic crap. That way the perpetrators think they are in the clear because of the media smoke screen. Only when the Feds come knocking on their door do they realize it was a trick. Florida anyone? You're not safe now you butterfly ballot eating terd.. hehe.. Of course, all of that is only speculation and I don't even take it all that seriously, and noether should you.
The point is, remember Oklahoma and innocent until proven guilty. Its the American way (and others too). Because "those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them" (Churchill I believe..).
Ahh.. I had thought about using the word "ethical" in my sentence but substituted politics instead. Obviously you saw where I was going. I removed the word ethical because I think this device is used to have both good and bad characteristics. The devices intent is to reduce harm, death, etc.. so ethically it passes the litmus test. However, the cost is a loss in civil liberties which could be argued worse than the benefit. That is why I relabeled the matter a decision of politics.
I would like to reiterate that I completely agree with you from the ethical standpoint. As Engineers of any discipline we have a responsibility to the public. I am an Embedded Design Engineer and I would not work on a project that say made net enabled electrocution chairs so that families could push the button from their big screen TV at a sports bar.. That would be clearly unethical for many, many different reasons. Nor would I work on an alarm sysem that triggered a battle axe to swing from the rafters and pummel someones brains. Or many other slightly less ludicrous jobs. Anyway, thanks for pointing out that ethics and engineering go hand in hand.
I recent Engineering grad from Texas A&M University and I saw some TCU students (I believe the ones mentioned in the article) give a presentation for this at a conference I went to last Spring. I'll come right out and say I didn't like the concept of my car reporting to Big Brother. So if you see any bias in this comment now you know why. Full disclosure I suppose.
Anyway, If you read the article closely you will see that each of the cars has a radio link that reports to everyone around you the sobriety of the driver. The Linx radio unit is actually a very cheap way to do low bandwidth wireless communications. So slashdot hardware hackers take note:)
As you can imagine the alcohol monitoring concept did not go over well amoung my classmates. Personally, I think they might as well put a blinking alcohol barometer on your car. Of course, we were college students and our demographics do not lend well to this experiment.
Another problem I had was with the obvious false positives from an alcohol sensing fuel cell. Perhaps they did find a way to distinguish from ethyl alcohol from bars and rubbing alcohol in perfumes. I know the article says they had, but I have serious reservations about the statement. But since I can't prove either way I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. As many have pointed out here what if you are the designated driver? What if you just went to a bar and someone spilled even a little beer on you? This has happened many times to me. The sensors will have to be ultra sensitive to pick up airborne molecules of alcohol.
Although the motives of the students are well meant because we all don't want drunk drivers hurting our loved ones the cost to civil liberties are immense. A 24/7 "air tap" for alcohol would be an extreme invasion of privacy. There is no way you could get a wire tap without a court order and I don't know how these guys think they can get car manufacturers and the American pubic to agree to volunatary constant surveillance via an "air tap".
In any case, to be fair these are Engineering students and their job isn't to decide the politics of the unit. Thats for Political Science types. I agree that their intentions are good, but the implementation is certainly not. I should also mention that the students and faculty I met from TCU were all nice and personable individuals and this comment was not meant to be a personal attack on them in any way. I simply do not agree with their topic of research.
I am at work right now. But I will try to find some of the notes and info I took from the conference when I get home tonight. I should at least have a copy of their presentation on the conference CD-ROM. So stay tuned.
Meanwhile, there's a study circulating saying that people don't and won't purchase heavily restricted music online at higher prices for a less useful item. This is apparently a revelation to the music industry.
This is a good point and indeed a revelation to the e-book industry as well. Its sad that all the corporations just don't get it. We are not going to pay more for a less restrictive format just because your marketing execs who use AOL think its cool and "chic". Also, I just got a message from Live365 (huge internet radio broadcasting house) the other day saying they will begin charging for new users in October:(
Glad they are keeping what they call "founder radio stations" like mine free.. thanks Live365:)
I agree with you. Granted, companies like Adobe try to put in content protection to help publishers. However, in the end customers are getting robbed because their electronic purchases are non-transferrable. For example, I just bought the ANSI C Standard (yes C99.. woohoo). I can view it on my computer just fine, but if I want to have it with me on my Palm I can't because the Palm Acrobat Reader requires a conversion which I cannot do without the password. I paid for the PDF yet I cannot upload it to my own Palm Pilot. Thats unfair use, thats why fscking e-books and any other non-transferable license can kiss my ass. As long as their is unfair content control they publishers not the users are the crooks.
Well I found out about sourceforge last week. The funny thing is a banner ad at slashdot tipped me off. The company I work for happens to be in the market for collaboration software. Unfortunately, I was too late to throw this one the bucket. The decision had already been made for another product.
After talking to a sales rep from VA Linux on the phone the advantage of buying sourceforge is support. Which I'm sure is the same reason businesses buy RedHat. Time is money to business and I know first hand we cannot be down from a bug in software or at the mercy of newsgroups for technical support answers. What I found really interesting is VA Linux no longer sells hardware, but they do still provide support. Anyway, good move VA Linux. I really appreciate the open source collaboration sourceforge provides and I think its a great move to supply the same great tools at a price to businesses for proprietary development. Lets hope their stock prices reflect this decision.
I think it is important to note that when IBM introduced MCA (microchannel architecture) they were big dogs home PC market, and the IBM brand of PC was still the standard of compatibility.
Fast forward about fifteen years and you will see that IBM has no PC market (except some peripherals). Today's IBM is both a services company and a server company. Linux aligns with this new paradigm very nicely. I'm glad that IBM has learned from their past, and I'm glad that Linux is a part of their business plan.
OK, every once in a while I see a post that says something like "Free as in beer", but not free as in ??. Anyway, since the topic is licenses could someone please clarify the free as in X statements. Its been something I have not understood for a while. One of the few Slashdot things I've been out of the loop on.. hehe.. Thanks in advance.
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks for posting the view from afar. I will try to explain further the attitude on this side of the pond.
"United We Stand Divided We Fall" is built into our heritage. Just because we stand united against an enemy (regarldess of circumstances) does not mean we are becoming a bunch of mindless drones. Thats why we have freedom of speech here (not that you don't) and thats what makes democracy so great. We can criticize our government, even in times like these. Of course, now you do have to take into account the circumstances and show a little couth. Thats true in everyday life as well. If you're girlfriend had gained 20 lbs you wouldn't say "man you're a fat@ss".... you might say something like "hey baby, how about we both go on a diet... my pants are a little tight and I want someone to help me out"
The point is we just have to take into account 9/11, but we can still say whatever we want. So please don't confuse nationalism with patriotism. Nationalism has the bad stigma patriotism does not. Please do not confuse the two. America is still a rational people and we will still use common sense.
JOhn
Well it would be cool, but the video chipset is a Savage4. As you know not the most competitive 3D chipset. Now if this was with the integrated nVidia chipset I would defnitely say "LAN Party".
JOhn
Really? Perhaps you could elaborate? I'm just a dumbass and I don't know what compatibility means.
Now just how big are the changes? Of course, there will be driver level changes for different displays, etc.. but the API? Can you give me any sort of proof there is "alot of under hood changes" going on or are you just passing on "knowl3dge" you learned on IRC. In a more radical view of "alot of changes" do you really think Handspring rewrote the PalmOS from the ground up to change "whats under the hood" and kept the same API? Come on...
I'm more than happy to hear comments from people in the know on API changes. Or perhaps even just a reference to substantiate a claim. But just passing on info cuz you think its right and then adding stupid endings like "its called compatiblity" to make yourself seem smarter doesn't add much to the circle of knowledge. If you work for Handspring, Sony, Handera, or even just know cuz you program on Palm Pilots please enlighten us. On the other hand if you are a troll and add a sentence in which you enlighten the slashdot community about "compatibility" then please refrain.
JOhn
I have done some programming on the Handspring and I didn't notice any heavy customizations. The OS was entirely the same except for a few extensions (try and catch API) for the Springboard slot. The rest was vanilla PalmOS. Thats the way it should be and thats what makes it completely compatible with all PalmOS applications. So in my opinion there is no substantial retrofit. Just an extension. This is of course, from an application programmers point of view, not a porting programmer that designed the OS. Any dissenting and enlightening views are appreciated.
JOhn
I just bring my DirectTV dish with me on my head... world without wires.. j/j
JOhn
The applications I have seen VLIW succeed in are high bandwidth multimedia applications. Although, I don't think its a mainstream card a company called Equator makes a video encoding card that uses VLIW technology. The PDF for the card is here. There are several other manufacturers of high speed video encoders that use VLIW designs as well.
I'm not sure how the market shakedown is going to work, but we will have to move beyond the x86 if we want to see continued performance gains. There are only so many tweaks that one can do. Is VLIW the right choice? We'll see... in the meantime I'm sure AMD will enjoy a ripe stomping until the VLIW compilers and developer tools are mature.
JOhn
It rocks, and now that version 0.6.1 does tables...
What? I can't believe anyone seriously considered a browser that didn't use tables. Every site uses tables and tables have been a part of Netscape since like I can remember (NS 1.0B9). Well at least Dillo has tables now. What else have they added? Image support? hehe.. just giving you a hard time.
JOhn
Leave then AC.
JOhn
I don't know the specifics of the DMCA, but I don't believe any form of encryption was broken into. I don't believe that reverse engineering a protocol through trial and error is illegal. However, circumventing a security / encryption mechanism is. Please feel free to correct any discrepancies.
JOhn
Sounds alot like bullshit to me. Don't forget freedom of speech commie.
JOhn
And if you own a Handspring Visor you can get a springboard module for External IR. The External IR is much stronger than Internal IR, but hardly ever necessary. The only time I would recommend buying the module is for Visor Edge models. I have an Edge and it doesn't work reliably for much further than 5'. You can see Pacific Neotek's tests here.
So I'm kind if in the market for External IR, but I'll wait til the latest version of OmniRemote comes out first (in beta now.. and has been for an eternity).
JOhn
Watch out for sheep.. they can be real baaastards.. (ok that was goat, but still funny)
JOhn
Well I guess hard is a very relative term. Hard crpto is not hard to make either if you encrypt the plain text with one method, then encrypt the encrypted output. Double encryption where the methods are unknown is a real beach... at least for me anyway. Then again I'm not the NSA..
JOhn
I have kept my e-mail signature the same for over three years, but on the day of the WTC attacks I changed it to this quote. I think now more than ever we are in danger of losing the encryption war. Besides back door or not the criminal isn't playing fair. They will use their own encryption mechanisms. Its not hard to make one. Then again you all knew this.
JOhn
I suppose becoming a techno terrorist yourself is the remedy? Since when is terrorism condoned? Why are you targeting innocent middle eastern civilians? Terrorism is evil because it targets civilians. Trust me, you will not affect the terrorists in any way with your hacks. If you remember Bin Laden doesn't even have telephone access much less Internet.
This stupid terrorist mentality is what we have to fight both on our side and theirs. I live in the Richardson, TX (just outside of Dallas) and we have a few idiots prancing around here shooting up mosques. Fools.. no better than the damn terrorists. I feel sorry for the innocent Arab ****AMERICANS**** cuz of a witch hunt by a few ignorant trash bastards.
JOhn
All I have to say is thanks to everyone at Slashdot for doing such a great job. Not just the Slashcrew who kept Slashdot alive during tremendous traffic, but to the many contributors that make this place a great community of information and a tremendous resource to us all.
:)
When ABC, CNN, and FoxNews were down Slashdot was there to disseminate mirrors, other official and unnoficial news sites (BBC, etc..), and countless valuable info. I know the servers were a little stressed, but overall I think this is a testament to the planning of the Slashdot site (network, servers, admins, VA Linux, etc..) and shows how the major news sites can learn a thing or two from us nerds
JOhn
I completely agree with you. Luckily, these nypost guys are only editors and don't run our nation. As a matter of fact I don't believe the nypost is all that great of a newspaper. In any case, those who are too quick to judge should remember Oklahoma. Then, like now, the papers were screaming Bin Laden's name and jumping all over Arabs, but when a white boy showed up I'm sure Bin Laden had the last laugh. Racial profiling on a national scale anyone? Its funny how papers bitch at cops for doing the same thing. Perhaps they shouldn't be such hypocrites.
Note: Not all media outlets are doing racial profiling. As a matter of fact, I have heard many radio, and new shows who have gone out of their way to not profile Arabs. Kudos to the ethical media!
I sometimes think that the Feds allow the papers, or maybe even bait the papers into posting this anti-arabic crap. That way the perpetrators think they are in the clear because of the media smoke screen. Only when the Feds come knocking on their door do they realize it was a trick. Florida anyone? You're not safe now you butterfly ballot eating terd.. hehe.. Of course, all of that is only speculation and I don't even take it all that seriously, and noether should you.
The point is, remember Oklahoma and innocent until proven guilty. Its the American way (and others too). Because "those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them" (Churchill I believe..).
JOhn
Ahh.. I had thought about using the word "ethical" in my sentence but substituted politics instead. Obviously you saw where I was going. I removed the word ethical because I think this device is used to have both good and bad characteristics. The devices intent is to reduce harm, death, etc.. so ethically it passes the litmus test. However, the cost is a loss in civil liberties which could be argued worse than the benefit. That is why I relabeled the matter a decision of politics.
I would like to reiterate that I completely agree with you from the ethical standpoint. As Engineers of any discipline we have a responsibility to the public. I am an Embedded Design Engineer and I would not work on a project that say made net enabled electrocution chairs so that families could push the button from their big screen TV at a sports bar.. That would be clearly unethical for many, many different reasons. Nor would I work on an alarm sysem that triggered a battle axe to swing from the rafters and pummel someones brains. Or many other slightly less ludicrous jobs. Anyway, thanks for pointing out that ethics and engineering go hand in hand.
JOhn
I recent Engineering grad from Texas A&M University and I saw some TCU students (I believe the ones mentioned in the article) give a presentation for this at a conference I went to last Spring. I'll come right out and say I didn't like the concept of my car reporting to Big Brother. So if you see any bias in this comment now you know why. Full disclosure I suppose.
:)
Anyway, If you read the article closely you will see that each of the cars has a radio link that reports to everyone around you the sobriety of the driver. The Linx radio unit is actually a very cheap way to do low bandwidth wireless communications. So slashdot hardware hackers take note
As you can imagine the alcohol monitoring concept did not go over well amoung my classmates. Personally, I think they might as well put a blinking alcohol barometer on your car. Of course, we were college students and our demographics do not lend well to this experiment.
Another problem I had was with the obvious false positives from an alcohol sensing fuel cell. Perhaps they did find a way to distinguish from ethyl alcohol from bars and rubbing alcohol in perfumes. I know the article says they had, but I have serious reservations about the statement. But since I can't prove either way I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. As many have pointed out here what if you are the designated driver? What if you just went to a bar and someone spilled even a little beer on you? This has happened many times to me. The sensors will have to be ultra sensitive to pick up airborne molecules of alcohol.
Although the motives of the students are well meant because we all don't want drunk drivers hurting our loved ones the cost to civil liberties are immense. A 24/7 "air tap" for alcohol would be an extreme invasion of privacy. There is no way you could get a wire tap without a court order and I don't know how these guys think they can get car manufacturers and the American pubic to agree to volunatary constant surveillance via an "air tap".
In any case, to be fair these are Engineering students and their job isn't to decide the politics of the unit. Thats for Political Science types. I agree that their intentions are good, but the implementation is certainly not. I should also mention that the students and faculty I met from TCU were all nice and personable individuals and this comment was not meant to be a personal attack on them in any way. I simply do not agree with their topic of research.
I am at work right now. But I will try to find some of the notes and info I took from the conference when I get home tonight. I should at least have a copy of their presentation on the conference CD-ROM. So stay tuned.
JOhn
Meanwhile, there's a study circulating saying that people don't and won't purchase heavily restricted music online at higher prices for a less useful item. This is apparently a revelation to the music industry.
:(
:)
This is a good point and indeed a revelation to the e-book industry as well. Its sad that all the corporations just don't get it. We are not going to pay more for a less restrictive format just because your marketing execs who use AOL think its cool and "chic". Also, I just got a message from Live365 (huge internet radio broadcasting house) the other day saying they will begin charging for new users in October
Glad they are keeping what they call "founder radio stations" like mine free.. thanks Live365
JOhn
I agree with you. Granted, companies like Adobe try to put in content protection to help publishers. However, in the end customers are getting robbed because their electronic purchases are non-transferrable. For example, I just bought the ANSI C Standard (yes C99.. woohoo). I can view it on my computer just fine, but if I want to have it with me on my Palm I can't because the Palm Acrobat Reader requires a conversion which I cannot do without the password. I paid for the PDF yet I cannot upload it to my own Palm Pilot. Thats unfair use, thats why fscking e-books and any other non-transferable license can kiss my ass. As long as their is unfair content control they publishers not the users are the crooks.
JOhn
Well I found out about sourceforge last week. The funny thing is a banner ad at slashdot tipped me off. The company I work for happens to be in the market for collaboration software. Unfortunately, I was too late to throw this one the bucket. The decision had already been made for another product.
After talking to a sales rep from VA Linux on the phone the advantage of buying sourceforge is support. Which I'm sure is the same reason businesses buy RedHat. Time is money to business and I know first hand we cannot be down from a bug in software or at the mercy of newsgroups for technical support answers. What I found really interesting is VA Linux no longer sells hardware, but they do still provide support. Anyway, good move VA Linux. I really appreciate the open source collaboration sourceforge provides and I think its a great move to supply the same great tools at a price to businesses for proprietary development. Lets hope their stock prices reflect this decision.
JOhn
I think it is important to note that when IBM introduced MCA (microchannel architecture) they were big dogs home PC market, and the IBM brand of PC was still the standard of compatibility.
Fast forward about fifteen years and you will see that IBM has no PC market (except some peripherals). Today's IBM is both a services company and a server company. Linux aligns with this new paradigm very nicely. I'm glad that IBM has learned from their past, and I'm glad that Linux is a part of their business plan.
JOhn
OK, every once in a while I see a post that says something like "Free as in beer", but not free as in ??. Anyway, since the topic is licenses could someone please clarify the free as in X statements. Its been something I have not understood for a while. One of the few Slashdot things I've been out of the loop on.. hehe.. Thanks in advance.
JOhn
32-bit color is actually 24-bits of color with 8-bits of alpha blending. Don't know why I bothered answering an AC, but what the hell. JOhn