Slashdot Mirror
More News And Links On Yesterday's Terrorist Attack
Ian Peon writes: "SF Gate has a short article on how the Internet "proved its mettle as a communications facilitator in a time of crisis." Kudos to all those who kept things running!"
An anonymous reader writes: "The who, what, and how are detailed in this Boston Herald story. The weapons were smuggled in the razor cases. And in order to get to the cockpit, they terrorized the stewardesses, killing a few in order to lure the pilot out. Once the pilot was out, they took control of the plane. They have identified a car driven by 5 arabs had flying instruction in arabic. The men have been traced back to different arab countries."
This WorldTribune.com story claims that Israeli intelligence reports favor the idea that the attacks may have had the backing of Saddam Hussein's Bagdhad government. According to a submission from UberOogie ,Osama bin Ladin denies involvement in the attacks. The claims, speculation and disclaimers will no doubt continue.
Connord D writes: "View the Survivor's Register Please, PLEASE go to the survivor registers, register that your looking for your family, tell your friends, pass the word around and identify those that have survived and those that are missing. Help worried families either confirm the fates of their loved ones so that they can mourn, or help them find those people that are missing." And Brian Mears, LAN Systems Operations Manager for Computer Sciences Corporation, writes: "I have created a forum on my website to allow families and friends of survivors to post messages and communicate with each other concerning this most tragic period." Here's the link: http://www.ntadmin.net/forum/.
It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once.
oo7 writes: "CNN has a stream of the first plane crash. If you'd like to download it you can from the videos section of this site; it has news updated as fast as I can and streams as fast as I can capture. Please forward any unknown news and links that you may have."
pKa writes: "The last image from WTCs 77th floor webcam is available on a few sites around the net. The original WCTA.org cam-site is dead, but available in Googles cache, where you can see the dark screen (camera already dead, most likely) at 09:52:52, 09/11/01 - just before the buildings crashed. Article (in norwegian) with screenshots available here" The stream of concern that yesterday's events will lead to an illiberal attitude toward privacy is growing into a torrent: vena writes: "CNN reported on television broadcast earlier today that the NSA was now going through volumes of recorded cellular calls for calls made by passengers on the planes. Clear admission."
GothChip writes: "Ananova are reporting that just hours after the terrorist attack on New York, the FBI started approaching ISPs asking for help in installing Carnivore."
mkelley writes: "This is only the beginning folks...looks like the internet is going to be blamed for this...Wired has a story that is sure to cause panic. This is going to be the goverment's way to push wiretapping into your email and web surfing. In this time of crisis, people in high places are going to use this to get their agenda through. "Blame the Internet" is going to be the rallying cry for everything ..." If you're interested in the details of the planes the terrorists chose, a Semi-Anonymous Coward writes: "American Airlines flight 77 confirmed down, crashed into the Pentagon, Washington DC. Flight 77 (Dulles to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 757-200:
Boeing 757-200 data and history:
American Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos:
- American Airlines flight 11 confirmed down, crashed into World Trade Center New York. Flight 11 (Boston to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 767-200:
- Boeing 767-200 data and history
- American Airlines Boeing 767-200 photos
- United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos: United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos"
I have some pictures I grabbed from the WallStreetItalia.com webcam.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Yes we know it wasn't McVeigh this time, but that's all we do know.
Let's spare some innocent lives this time.
And also the obligatory plug for Poliglut.
.sig
Thanks for all who have sent in news and emailed their thanks during the crush yesterday.
Several stories, a diary of the events and many links available from the
Link available on amazons frontpage. So far, $481,726 has been collected. Please help, most of us can spare a dollar...
MSNBC (The TC channel) was saying that two suspects had apparantly attended flight school in Florida last summer. It didn't have any more information on WHO the suspects were however. Here is a related story there.
"You can take our lives, but you can never take our Flerbage!!!!"
Note Iraq's basically unique reaction at http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mideas
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
You know, I have to speak up about something: I am sickened by the cowardice I saw yesterday on Slashdot. There were many that were calling for appeasing the terrorists. Many called for just "moving on", and not making a response. Still more said that we shouldn't "make them mad" by striking back, which would invite more terrorism. Many even said that we should try and "understand" the terrorists.
Hogwash.
Tens of thousands of people have died. These are not freedom fighters, these are mentally disturbed people with great resources. Should we have tried to understand Kaczinsky when he sent mail bombs? Or do we remove him from society?
The perpetrators must be punished, and the countries that give safe harbor to these countries must be punished. As an American, I believe the response must be overwhelming force. Terrorism on American soil? This must not be tolerated.
You people who think that we are inviting more terrorism have it exactly backwards. That is how the terrorists want you to feel! The want you to feel fear, to give in to whatever demands they make. We must NEVER do that. Once they find out that we will do nothing to their attacks, particularly on this scale, it will invite every crazy to cause more damage.
It's time for Sheriff Uncle Same to ride into town, and kick some bad-guy ass. The cowards who wring their hands over what needs to be done make me sick. Go hide under your bed, and allow the grown-ups to do what needs to be done.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
All you "patriots" who were arguing that technology like Carnivore and facial recognition cameras were a violation of privacy had better get used terrorism, because if we don't do something, it's going to get a lot worse in the coming months.
I would GLADLY have my communications monitored rather than having 50,000 innocent civilians slaughtered like this.
I hope you privacy activists are happy now. Because of your whining about "rights", the terrorists were able to walk right under our noses. The blood of the innocent is on YOUR hands!
Slashdot: Open Source, Closed Minds.
The following was a letter emailed to the President by a friend of mine, and I think you would all be interested in reading it.
I am writing you to express my thanks for your sincere and thoughtful remarks on today's national tragedy. Like you, I offer my condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this horrific attack. I also write you on behalf of potential victims of a growing and unreasoned response to this travesty.
Interspersed with the reports on today's national tragedy, I have been hearing other news that is as disconcerting as the senseless loss of life. Namely, that Federal Law Enforcement Agency spokespersons are talking of limiting not only civil liberties of free passage, but veiled references to endorsing the curtailing of privacy-enabling technologies, all of which are cryptography-based.
It seems that those who truly care about freedom and all that it entails are being afforded no time to mourn this day's losses. I believe it no product of wild speculation to suggest that many policiticians and media pundits will once again renew their calls for limitations on public access to strong cryptography. These movements will be built on the graves of the dead in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The claim will ultimately be made that if cryptography had not been so readily available, our intelligence agencies would have been able to detect and summarily thwart today's attack on the contintental United States.
Suffice it to say that I can no sooner embrace such notions than I can embrace the terrorists who brought this tragedy to our nation's shores. And anyone suggesting such a course of action should be met with resistance equal to that which you call on us to muster against the forces of terrorism.
The day we sacrifice our liberties in the name of "security" is the day that the terrorists' goals will have been achieved. To reiterate the wisdom of Benjamin Franklin, if we surrender our liberty in the name of security, we shall have neither.
It is unfortunate that it seemed necessary to compose this note less than twelve hours after this day's attack, but it is every citizen's duty to take every possible action to avert national disaster; especially one in the making.
Thank you for your valuable time. It is my hope that the perpetrators of this crime against the United States will be swiftly brought to justice. God bless America.
who sacrified himself to save others, on United Flight 93.
Thanks slashdot for the fantastic work you have done over the last 2 days. When other services have been down or out, you have been able to fill us in and have provided a forum for people to use, and provide links to working news sources.
This isn't news for nerds exclusivly but it was well worth the exception.
Has anyone heard any credible speculation as to the destination of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was? The other three planes obviously had specific targets: the Pentagon and the two WTC buildings. The fourth crashed southeast of Pittsburgh. As nice of a city as Pittsburgh is, I'm sure, I can't recall any significant landmarks or financial centers that exist there.
- Rev.I'd just like to thank all the /.ers out there who set up mirrors and the like. Kudos to you for acting so quickly to help out the world's public find their news.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
My wife and I were speculating last night: will they rebuild the towers? They will almost certainly fix the Pentagon because only about a fifth of the building was damaged, but what about our landmark center for capatailsm? Thoughts?
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous.
... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
"Who is responsible for yesterday's carnage? That's no great mystery."
- editorial 4006
The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Until there is concrete evidence pointing to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, there can be no action. If the US attacks without evidence, then we are terrorists as well, and would deserve all the condemnation we are piling on our - still unknown - attackers.
"To hell with Bill Clinton's 'gather the evidence and proceed to court' approach."
- editorial 4022
"The response
- Steve Dunleavy editorial 3999
Both of these editorialists call for dismissing the due process on which our justice system is based. They call for the removal of equal treatment under the law. These demands for extreme measures are demands for the creation of a dictatorship, of a police state. Assassinations, executions without trials, condemnation without evidence - these are the hallmarks of regimes like Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China and Hitler's Germany.
Consistent and reasoned responses are imperitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism.
There were 6 survivors pulled from the rubble this morning, 1 police officer and 5 firefighters. Apparently when the building collapsed it did in such a way that an air pocket was formed, allowing room for the people and shielding them from more debris.
There's probably been more survivors nowrescued now. It's amazing that anyone could have survived the collapse, considering the amount of building involved.
I made a few small logos which i'd like to share:
... i dont know.
http://www.abde.net/images/911-TN.jpg "9-11"
(9-11 as in september 11, and also as in emergency, etc)
http://www.abde.net/images/remember.jpg "Remember the Skyline"
http://www.abde.net/images/wtc-2002.jpg "WTC 2002"
(as in, rebuild)
do copy and pass it on if you think its worth sharing. these are
meant as an expression of solidarity, of remembrance
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
Great articles on Slate right now:
s p? Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8265
s p? Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8270
Why the Towers collapsed:
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.a
How good were the Pilots?
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.a
------
Let me give you the lowdown
If some one has a concise report of the damage to the WTC beyound the towers(which buildings, what damage, etc.) it would be of interest to those of use in the hinter lands
I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
http://www.watership.org/media/
I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror.
http://watership.org/media/images.tar.gz -(26985k)
http://watership.org/media/movies.tar.gz -(200189k)
i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.
Producing satire is kind of hopeless because of the literacy rate of the American public. - Frank Zappa
I noticed that no TV or radio stations were doing ANY commercials around here yesterday. I was thinking how good it would be for some sites that got a LOT more traffic yesterday to donate some of the profit to the Red Cross or another relief organization.
Slashdot mentioned getting 3x as much traffic..how about donating some of the after-expenses profit?
ebay, in an attempt to prevent exploitation of yesterday's terrorist attacks, has banned and removed auctions containing items related to the world trade center and the pentagon.
m l? tag=mn_hd
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7137598.ht
This is interesting:
I'm a reasonably intelligent person, I know that the NSA is basically admitting to recording all cell phone traffic, I know this will include my private calls...
And I don't care. Maybe I will in a week or two, but right now...
Anyway, I'm usually very pro-privacy, so I found my reaction on this one interesting.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I've heard rumours that the plane was headed for Camp David.
Perhaps now it is time to think if a big amount of money should be spent on the missile shield, if even the pentagon can be hit by a terrorist attack.
Although the attack was quite well organized, it probably didn't cost too much, and the shield wouldn't be useful against this kind of attacks.
Given the current situation of the middle east, this kind of things are much more probable than a missile attack from some distant country.
This is a horrendous situation and I hope most of the people got out of the buildings before the collapse. As a Canadian they might as well have hit Toronto because it feels the same. While the US media has ignored it there have been lines at blood banks across Canada, and every Canadian city has offered to help however they can (and they are actually offering for real. Toronto prepared 15 EMS teams with ambulances and all of the equipment ready to go on NY's request, and our hospitals and air ambulances prepared to take any overflow that might exist).
Having said that it is INCREDIBLY irritating seeing the natural habit of pointing to easy solutions to get the knee jerk solutions : For instance every report has been making a BIG deal about 2 of the people possibly having come from Canada (though strangely apparently they had New Jersey licenses from preliminary reports). Guess what: They flew FROM US airports, and they apparently had UAE passports, so could someone tell me why this "Canadian connection" is given such relevance? Secondly during the attack all attention was immediately placed on international flights despite the fact that the four flights were originating and destined in the US, but of course it's easy to think of foreign airports as lax versus the super secure impenetrable US airports. I just had to get this off my chest because while I would do anything for New York right now, it's hard to tolerate the habit of looking outwards for blame. As a caucasian I really feel for anyone of Middle Eastern descent as all of them are being painted with the same brush and people should remember that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and not every Middle Eastern descended person thinks this is cool: The vast majority are horrified.
It seems that ESR has written an opinion piece on Newsforge that is sure to get slashdotters up in arms. Sorry couldn't resist the lame pun. Seriously though, it seems like ESR is promoting his personal agenda during this time of crisis. Hardly appropriate.
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
...but have you noticed that you never see Osama bin Laden and Bill Gates in the same room?
I'm just your average college student from a small town moved to the capital of the State. I too was horrified by what had happened yesterday and today I finally feel the need to speak. I've been reading through the comments and saw people write that we needed to strike the terrorists back yesterday. That would have been all well and good had we known whom the terrorists were. Sure it could be bin Laden, but we don't really know. For all we know, it was a group of National Terrorists, not an international group. Please don't go pointing fingers before the facts are out. Enough people have died already. More innocents do not need to be taken from us. Yes, I am saddened by what happened, but we also need to move on. Move on, but never forget. We cannot sit on our haunches and dwell over something that happened in the past.
As for privacy issues... how well would facial recognition work when anymore it is just a (relatively) simple operation to have your facial features changed? Sorting through hundreds of thousands of phone calls, emails, and whatnot every day just doesn't seem feasible to me. A lot of man hours would be wasted. The simple truth is that airline security is very poor right now. I'd much rather be physically searched (patted down) whenever I flew than have my face scanned every time and a computer glitch and mistake me for someone I'm not. But then again, I'm just a college student from a small town... on one really listens.
Yellow bird I see
The gray dragon wisely hides
Honor is duty
FWIW I'm very impressed with the response of the American people to this unprecedented crisis. I thought the newscasters did an unusually objective job of covering the event (despite the recurrent technical problems), and the talking head experts had very interesting things to say. Fox even wheeled out Ollie North and Newt Gingrich for comments, and even they had surprisingly incisive things to say (!).
;-) ), and people kept the crass jokes and politicking to an amazing minimum. I am the moderator of a forum that reflects a much less (ahem) savvy/sophisticated subculture, and I was impressed to see my users put aside their flamewars for a day and engage in mature discussion.
:-)
The discussions on Slashdot were atypically mature (at least at moderation level 3
We live in a period of extreme political cynicism/complacency, but yesterday reaffirmed my faith in the American people and our elected representatives. Probably everyone will revert to their non-noble selves once the shock has worn off, but I just wanted to say that it's cool, for a moment, to have old-skool solidarity with your neighbors in the face of a common enemy.
Peace,
Gonz
The United States will not just rise like phoenix from the ashes, it will rise like Mothra!
We will be the meanest son of a beech phoenix ever! Shooting fire, razor sharp talons, and faster than sound, invisible to radar.
Our organization has been very busy. Check my posts from yesterday. People in Dade County FL can use our site as the day goes on to help in our efforts. Click here or cut and paste [http://ckfonline.org/arc/]. Thanks for everyones help everywhere.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Harry Browne of the libertarian party thoughts:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But
they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth - that
during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a
prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first
place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter
of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is
a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer
for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the
world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in
Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan,
Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and
Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded
Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and
property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson
about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over
Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches
anything but resentment - that it only inspires the recipient to
greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist
attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they
were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them
knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent
people - while the presidents remain completely insulated from any
danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of
battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up
more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the
first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in
the name of freedom?
What to Do
What should be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could
have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans
could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone
would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe,
Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind
their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to
commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and
domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent
our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against
America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and
un-American - that this is not a time to question our country or our
leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason
to be patriotic?
Harry Browne was the 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate. You can
read more of his articles at www.HarryBrowne.org, and his books are
available at www.HBBooks.com.
For those that are interested, the Lamont-Doherty Cooperative Seismographic Network (LCSN) has recorded the activity that happened at the World Trade Center so you can realistically feel what was felt there and nearby for the impact and collapse of the buildings.
LCSN Link: http://www.ldgo.columbia.edu/lcn.html
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I've got my encryption ready. All they'll be doing is wasting cpu power. And once they get machines that can decrypt messages fast enough, just double the bits in the encryption key and wait another couple years for them to catch up.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I was impressed that Slashdot and the internet in general did as well as they did yesterday considering the no doubt unprecedented load and traffic.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
So, I have 142 average to high-res images on a page I threw together, as well as several videos. The site, http://www.students.bucknell.edu/ekrout/images/911 _In_America/images/gallery/index.html, should be able to take high-abuse in terms of bandwidth, etc. It's a resource, so feel free to use it. Thanks.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
How many times did McVeigh attack large buildings?
I think it means that OKC was immediately blamed on middle east, and turned out to be home-grown.
The United States' sky was blue, perfectly blue. Empty, simple, clear, clean, blue. Throughout the country, millions of people looked up at the sky on Tuesday to see the most perfect, cloudless sky that has existed for many, many years.
Except for over New York City. The sky over Manhattan was obscured by thick, black smoke and dust from the remains of the World Trade Center. They did not share our sky, and we did not share theirs.
The rest of us Americans shared something else, too: television. We spent hours glued to our televisions, placing panicked phones calls every few minutes to friends and family, not to share mutually-known news, but to share the thick silence of horror. Every station broadcast the latest news, without interruption. They all used a common title: "Attack on America," sparing us the usual battle over which network's tragedy-moniker will stick.
By afternoon, many of those that had remained home to watch the news realized that they needed some face time, and headed to the streets for some human contact. Those that had spent the day at work had gotten very little done, finding themselves a part of impromptu television communities in neighboring offices. It was, of course, all that anybody talked about. Strangers gathered on street corners, nodding acquaintances traded news tips, people sobbed and prayed on the sidewalk.
All beneath that perfect blue sky. With every last airplane in the United States resting safely on the tarmac, not a single contrail scarred our endless collective ceiling.
The blood drives started by mid-afternoon, setting up cots in office parks, buses, and abandoned shopping malls. The turnout was so tremendous that crowds of people were turned away, asked to return the next day to give of their blood.
Then there were the American flags. Where happy orange pumpkins and brown ice cream cones had flapped in front of homes and businesses, now crisp new star-spangled banners hung. On Charlottesville's Downtown Mall, four girls bearing carnations walked down the street, offering bright yellow flowers to babies and businessmen, homeless women and waitresses. Nearly everybody in sight bore boutonnieres in their buttonholes, and it was impossible not to cry.
Late afternoon brought perhaps the most surreal event of the day. Congress assembled on the Capital steps and sang a verse of "God Bless America." Republicans, Democrats and Independents sang together, slightly off-key, unaccompanied by music. Under our great blue sky.
as the UN did for germany and japan, revoke the sovereign-ity of whatever nations participated or harbored these cowardly attackers. then we invade, put up military courts, execute the perpetrators, bring about law and order in the places that allowed this to happen, and after a few years, leave.
end of story.
We here at school have begun collecting images and video to help out with the bandwidth problem the news sites are having... Here Also feel free to send anything in...
Janes has made info from their All the World's Aircraft data available online for the 767 and 757.
Your password has expired, please login to change it.
Pure speculation. Two planes were sent to the World Trade Centre in New York. It would seem reasonable that two were sent to the Pentagon in DC.
We here at school have begun collecting images and video to help out with the bandwidth problem the news sites are having... Here Also feel free to send anything in...
You said, "Consistent and reasoned responses are imperitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism."
What happened yesterday was not just a terrorist attack on the WTC and the Pentagon and not just a terrorist attack on the US. It was a declaration of war against the civilized world.
Any country that supports or harbors terrorists on any scale had better sit down and take a long, hard look at what they are doing today, they probably won't last the next decade if they continue. The people that did this must be exterminated including any who support them.
While I'm not a fan of military action, I would now join the military to take revenge not for my nation, but for the world. The terroists have shown us they can take our own planes and cause such enormous destruction and through this they show that they despise the foundations of civilization itself, trade and travel. There is only one consistent and reasoned response to this, and I feel it is never again.
marotti.com
..find the current fortune cookie in rather poor taste? Yes, I know it a random selection, but it may be a good idea to kicker the selector over and check the next one isn't in poor taste for the next few days.
If anyone looks at this, how does this rate on the rictor (sp?) scale?
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
This corresponds to the date of the demonstrations done against the World Economic Forum on September 11 a year ago.
After searching on the Internet (google.com) a site turned up: www.s11.org. After going to the site I saw pages talking about plans in the future to go up against global coporations. S11 appears to be a group that harbors a strong hatred for global corporations and governments.
One thing that struck me as unusual was one of the index pages had something written to the effect of "On September 11, 2000 at 9am we were successful in stopping the World Economic Forum." I found this unusual because on September 11, 2001 around 9am (NYT) the 2 planes crashed into the World Trade Center.
Yesterday I did a whois (Internet) lookup of s11.org. There were a couple of unusual things about the whois record for s11.org. The record (at the time I looked at it) was created on September 11, 2000. The other unusual thing about the record was the expire date was set to September 11, 2001.
I remember the contact for the whois record having a California address. A Los something city I cannot remember the name for.
A few hours ago I attempted to go back to the s11.org site but was getting time out errors. After that I did a whois lookup on the same domain but the domain records had been changed. The whois record now shows a Last Update date of September 12, 2001 and is owned by a domain name squatter.
It is quite unusal that the whois record for this domain name changed so suddenly at this point in time and is now owned by a different organization.
Even though the site has disappeared, you can still see some cached pages of the original s11.org site by going to google.com and searching for s11.
You can also see a graphic of the same 'global justice' graphics used on the S11 site at another site:
www.channel6000.com
One other set of unusual information that seems to indicate a well-planned attack are the relationship easily found between flight numbers of the hijacked planes and the date:
The flights that were hijacked, from United and AA, were numbered as follows:
11, 93, 175, and 77 11 = Yesterday 9+3 = 12 = Today 1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday 7+7 = 14 = Friday
Found this link on Slate:
e rrorism.htm
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/visions/Publications/t
Written back in '98 apparently, it gives some good insight into plans for dealing with this sort of thing -- I suspect that the "monitoring" aspect of it will get a huge boost from yesterday's attacks.
Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Over at nancies.org, we made a Red Cross banner and put it into rotation, which is (IMHO) even better than donating whatever paltry income that sites make from advertising these days.
f
http://www.nancies.org/images/banners/redcross.gi
Anybody is welcome to use it, of course. We linked it to redcross.org, but the Amazon.com thing may be better.
-Waldo
For the record, I personally am not sure what the United States should do about these attacks. I do however think that some thought should be applied rather then just bombing everyone that moves regardless of civilian casualties.
I live in Brooklyn NY, and I witnessed the second WTC tower fall yesterday from the sidewalk in front of my house. There is a Palestinian refrigeration supply store next door to my apartment. They were as upset about the attacks as you are. However, they also feared for their safety and elected to close there stores and go home for the day (as did all the stores in my neighborhood owned by Arabs).
My point is that if we are to do something, it should be a calculated helpful thing to people, not just the obligatory military response. I'm not saying that a military response is not justified I just thing that calmness (i.e. not calling people cowards that disagree with you) should be the order of the day.
Rudy Giuliani's speech urging restraint and togetherness was the right message.
In the aftermath of yesterday's gruesome terrorist attack, I'd like to recommend that we fly black ad banners on our sites for a few days in memory of the victims and their families.
Our hearts and prayers are with them.
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
If you bomb innocents in other countries, as is the US habit after these incidents, they will most likely reason exactly like you, refuse to be "taught a lesson", and devote their lives to striking back at the country who attacked them.
In fact, chances are some of those suicide bombers were produced in previous US and Israeli attacks to "teach terrorists a lesson".
The proper Kaczinsky analogy is not "should we not have locked him up??" but "should we have bombed his home town?"
]As a foreigner living in the US, I feel I have to post this as AC.]
Check here for Nasa images of the smoke plume from MODIS.
Krispy Cream is people
FAA keeps flights down... looks like indefintely.g hts/index.html.
- news-95625820010911-070921.html.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/09/12/faa.fli
FBI thinks they have names of hijackers...
http://www.theindychannel.com/sh/news/stories/nat
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
First of all I would like to say that I believe that the people responsible for this should be skinned alive and dipped in a vat of lemon juice. But we also NEED to hear why this was done, if it was an act by insane religious zealots then nuke em, but if this was an act by someone with a legitimate gripe against the US then we need to ask ourselves "What are we alowing our politicians to do in our name?" This should be a call to all Americans that it is time to make our intelligence community accountable for their actions abroad, they have been warning us for the last 30 years and the entire American nation is to blame for this happening because we silently condone the raping and pillaging of entire communities in the name of American business interests.
I agree completly. However, I would want our government to make sure that adequate evidence is first presented. Bombing terrorists groups now may result in allies viewing US actions in a negative fashion. If Bin Ladden is shown to have had a role in this then I would give Afganistan a brief time to turn him over. If they didn't then the US should "ride into town, and kick some bad-guy ass".
s /
I am glad to see Nato and many of its members stepping in with support for the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/nato.u
Their choice, and their responsibility, not ours.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Because of the magnitude of loss, the common assertion is that security is too lax. For the sake of balance, I claim security is excellent. You can't prevent all acts of terrorism. You can only make it hard. There's no evidence that yesterday's attacks were easy. They were reduced to using little knives.
The attacks yesterday actually are the end of hijacking. Up until yesterday, people on a plane could assume they would live through it by cooperating. Now, people on the plane will fear they'll die even if they cooperate, and be used to kill thousands more. Three guys with little knives won't be able to take over a plane full of passengers. They may kill many passengers, but the hijackers will be beaten into bloody pulp.
Immediate reaction is to end curbside check-in at airports. Um. That wasn't the problem. End curbside check-in, more people carry luggage onboard. *That* was the problem.
Yes, of course, let's be even more careful about airline security. But maybe the place to start is by hiring more and better people, and giving them better training and working conditions. (As opposed to curtailing freedoms and spending uncountable billions on worthless anti-missile systems.)
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a
horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a
surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty
is truth -- that during any war truth is forsaken
for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty:
it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the
first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It
was only a matter of time until Americans would
have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible
tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to
suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When we will learn that we can't allow our
politicians to bully the world without someone
bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of
innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed
innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq,
and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and
Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in
Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families
and friends and property in all that destruction
would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets
violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar
al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly
thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over
Scotland, and our government is convinced it was
Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a
lesson" never teaches anything but resentment --
that it only inspires the recipient to greater
acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone
describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"?
But as misguided and despicable as they were, they
were anything but cowardly. The people who
committed them knowingly gave their lives for
whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American Presidents who order
bombings of innocent people -- while the
Presidents remain completely insulated from any
danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason
in the heat of battle almost always assures that
we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be
told we must give up more of our freedoms to
avenge what never should have happened in the
first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give
up our freedoms in the name of freedom?
What to Do
What _should_ be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and
ask how this could have happened. Ask how a
prosperous country isolated by two oceans could
have so embroiled itself in other people's
business that someone would want to do us harm.
Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland
isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the
Swiss mind their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use
this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts
upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic,
that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the
future.
Third, find a way, with _enforceable_
constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from
ever again provoking this kind of anger against
America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is
unpatriotic and un-American -- that this is not a
time to question our country or our leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and
sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?
---
Harry Browne was the 2000 Libertarian presidential
candidate. You can read more of his articles at
http://www.HarryBrowne.org, and his books are available
at http://www.HBBooks.com.
Taco's notions of journalism can sometimes be almost as shaky as his spelling, but I think he and Hemos both have an excellent sense of what to do with the tremendous platform they have and they showed it yesterday.
Three other random thoughts:
First, when I went to donate blood yesterday, I was very touched by the number of people who rushed to help, and in particular by all the foreign students there. (Japanese, especially.) We may all have our differences, but it's good to see that almost all of us are basically on the same side.
Second, and this is kind of out of nowhere, hopefully this incident will take some of the steam out of "anarchist" rioting. If you have honest objections to the IMF, World Bank, Starbucks or whatever, by all means protest, demonstrate, get arrested, but please start leaving it at that. The "black bloc" folks may think they're the ultimate badasses with their slingshots and gas masks, but yesterday should have made it clear that there's two kinds of people in the world and they're over here with us.
Finally, and I'm aiming this mostly at myself but encouraging others to join in -- yesterday brought home just how insane it is to get enraged over whether one should say Linux or GNU/Linux or what Craig Mundie said about Linux. The world needs free software, it needs fair use of information but it doesn't need more hate. Certainly not over software.
It would be nice to get some different views on this situation. These people had to have been pretty pissed at something the U.S. did to go to the effort to pull this off and on top of that kill themselves in the process.
BUT the stupid government policies.
US government supported terrorists in Afganistan,
Kosovo and Chechnia. They did not strike
on Laden earlier becouse they hoped Afganistan
would do damage to the countries in Central Asia
One cannot have it both ways - with one hand
suport terrorist acts that are serving us and with
the other defend from those attacking us.
US was involved in the business of "selective
terrorist breeding" - very risky business if you
ask me. That's is precisely why the government
wants to *listen* to the terrorists - to prevent
*only* those acts that are against us.
Time to think people. Just get it firmly
in your heads that with little childish tricks
like this we are going to spoil this great country.
A lot of the spirit have been already poisoned by media
and entertainment industries.
And I am not even mentioning the Mid East policies.
People - think, vote and fix your government.
I know this is off topic for this story, I posted this info on the story about gas prices but with the 700+ +2 comments I doubt many people saw it.
On the radio in to work today they were interviewing Michigan's Attorney General, Jennifer M. Granholm, about the sharp raise in gas prices. According to the major gas distributors, the price of gas at the retail level should NOT be affected. Any gas stations that have raised their prices significantly are doing so illegally.
She encouraged everyone that drives past gas stations, in Michigan, that have raised their prices greatly to report it to the attorney general website so that they can take action against said gas stations.
She also said to remember which gas stations are doing it and never by gas from them again.
I am also sure that the Attorney Generals of other states will also be looking in to similar cases in their states. The url for your state's attorney general is www.ag.state.$state.us and replace $state with your 2 letter abreviation.
Whoever modded that post down can kiss my ass.
******
"What makes you think I care about your opinions?"
All I have to say is thanks to everyone at Slashdot for doing such a great job. Not just the Slashcrew who kept Slashdot alive during tremendous traffic, but to the many contributors that make this place a great community of information and a tremendous resource to us all.
:)
When ABC, CNN, and FoxNews were down Slashdot was there to disseminate mirrors, other official and unnoficial news sites (BBC, etc..), and countless valuable info. I know the servers were a little stressed, but overall I think this is a testament to the planning of the Slashdot site (network, servers, admins, VA Linux, etc..) and shows how the major news sites can learn a thing or two from us nerds
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
An act of unthinkable and horrific violence was brought upon our citizens today. An act committed by cowards. An act of unthinkable magnitude. The media is wildly speculating the complete ramifications of this act. I assure you, the impact will be huge. At this point in time the Asian markets are opening at a 5% drop (The lowest level in 17 years). The fiscal impact is simply the tip of the ice burg.
Money, lives, and property are not the issue of the day (in my opinion). I personally lost friends to this tragedy and I do not wish to lower the value of human life in any fashion. In America values, ideals, and our rights have always taken a precedent over human life, and this is simply another example of this.
All that is possible must be done to bring those responsible to trial. The must be punished for their actions but, done in a legal and just way. They have infringed on the rights of countless 1000's but, this DOES NOT give us the right to remove theirs. I whole-heartedly support the death sentence for all (those responsible and those who harbor them) involved but, we as a nation must do so in a fair and just manner. If we do not do so, all the lives lost today will be for nothing. They (whomever they are) will have won and triumphed over us. They have wounded us and we will have struck ourselves the fatal blow. We cannot remove the rights of the citizens' (any citizen, victim or attacker) of this country. Doing so simple crumbles the foundation on which this country was built on.
We as American's must understand that this will take time. Tomorrow we will not wake up and see the men responsible in custody. This is for good reason. The reason we do not act out in overt aggression is because our country was founded upon the ideals against those actions. We would put ourselves on the same level as the cowards responsible.
Today at least 4 men gave their lives for a cause they believed was just. We as Americans may not believe people could do such a thing. What we must understand is that Americans do this everyday, and especially on this horrible day. So far at least 250+ men and women died attempting to rescue the victims of this act of terrorism. These are the heroes. We shouldn't speak of this horrid act; we should speak of the bravery of the countless firemen, policemen, and random people that risked their lives for the sake of saving another. This is the pride of America today. This is the silver lining to the horrid cloud that has settled over our cities.
Tonight, America sleeps, scared and confused. Tomorrow I hope America rises with a sense of unity and strength. I hope that this will be the tie that binds men and women of all ages, races, sexes, creeds, and beliefs together to help build our cities and our spirit back up higher then before.
Sleep tonight praying for unison of the American spirit. Let us not wake and demand blood but, demand justice and peace. This is what America stands for today in my heart and I hope this is what it will be when I awake from sleep tomorrow.
God Bless.
And may all those who perished today have their place in our hearts as martyrs for America and their place in heaven.
"kill their hateful god"
Amen. And after we treat Allah to a truly justifiable deicide, let's deal with the other two members of the Triumvirate of Hell that has plagued the West for 6000 years: Yahweh and Jesus Christ.
It's time to put an end to these mystical religions, they only lead to massacres.
******
"What makes you think I care about your opinions?"
It'd be nice to see the towers repaired but they're quite beyond repair now. So you'll see either some monument, or some majestic memorial skyscraper erected a decade from now. Depending on the course of the next few months though, you might see a museum of innocence there in the future.
I mean, even if it wasn't Osama Bin Laden, the public will demand that all terrorism is wiped out. Much backlash to follow on both sides.. A museum of "Life in America before WWIII".
In any case, I have to let it sink in that this is real. This is actually happening. Our brains just aren't wired to classify something of this scale as "real". I keep filing it under Fight Club-esque... bah I'm going to go pop some pills
The end of the article looks like this (ONLY on Slashdot...):
---
{snipped other really serious WTC article links}
United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos: United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos"
< Programming Linux Games
---
That just got a laugh out of me.
DrPascal: Not the language, the mathematician.
AT 12:55 in the Senate today Senator Kerry just suggested that we should rebuild the twin towers. He went on to say that this is the only adequate monument that could possibly be raised, a tribute to our democracy and capitalism. He said to those who would mark the new building as a target: "We have no shortage of tall buildings or monuments; this is not a question of targets, it is a question of our strength and of our national resolve."
Or maybe you could make your own news site.
This matters to everyone in the world.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
Technoli
I don't think anybody is going to forget this happened.
I do think that nobody is going to see that web page before knowing anything about this tragic incident. Putting up a web page a day later isn't telling anybody what has happened.
And lets be honest. If you want news you either turn on the TV, listen to the radio, or read the newspaper, read any of the above's websites, or speak to someone who has.
Not go to some guys website who has a macabre collection of pictures taken from the aforementioned sites. As I said before, Ambulance chasing.
I see many folks advocating the immediate violent retaliation response, even before evidence is gathered and proof is assembled to identify the culprits. This is foolishness.
The people behind the attacks obviously had excellent planning and coordination, and were totally dedicated. The response has to have better planning and better coordination, and be just as dedicated (though not to the point of suicidal attackers.) Knee-jerk reactions against an enemy that has demonstrated such ability to plan are foolish -- the enemy may already have planned for them -- and nothing would look as foolish as throwing military might around only to miss time after time.
Reflexive, violent reactions are why a matador wins over a bull in a bull fight, despite the bull's larger size and greater strength. The attackers have demonstrated they have skill, planning, and patience enough to manage this attack -- the response *must* be just as planned and methodical to prevent them from doing any more.
This does not mean a nice response, this just means it must be an *effective* response.
There is more to this than just trying to find the leader behind the attack. The entire organization must be rooted out -- I would prefer to see that done first, in fact, so that the leader behind this can see that nothing of the organization, nothing he was in charge of, none of the people he led or trained will be left to survive his execution, that there will be no legacy left behind, while we rebuild and continue on.
In World War II, the Japanese culture and the Japanese religion were the same thing. The Japanese thought that they were the supreme race, and that their emporer was a god. They treated the rest of population of Asia like they were mongrel scum and committed horrendous atrocities to those people.
When the Japanese surrendered to the US, we (the US) basically rebuilt their country. Part of that involved discrediting their false and evil religion. We paraded their emporer around the country and allowed the citizens to touch him, proving that they could touch the emporer and survive.
I think it's time we do the same thing with these so-called "rogue nations." I'm not arguing that Islam is evil, but the type of "Islam" that these terrorists follow most certainly is. They are inspired and driven by their evil religion to murder and injure innocent civilians. I have no tolerance for any religion that teaches its followers to murder and maim innocent civilians.
If we want to stop Islamic terrorists, then we need to discredit their false and evil religion. I know this sounds like heavy flamebait, and before you moderate it as such, please attempt to understand my argument that the "Islam" that these terrorists follow is an evil and murderous religion. Thousands of innocent civilians are dead becuase of that religion. Islam is not inherently evil, but that does not mean that there aren't some sects of Islam that are. Just like there are some sects of almost any religion that are.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I read it was $750 million, and would cost $1.5 billion today.
That is a lot, but with (I estimate here) 100 million taxpayers in the US, we are looking at $15 a head.
A small price to pay to help show the world we will not be cowed by terrorism.
Many people (Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and others) could even actually pay for such a thing with their own personal funds, as mind boggling as that may seem.
It can be done.
We might also want to consider sending a few billion dollars to Israel.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Sure they are. Firefighters fight fire, what do you think freedomfighters fight?
The Empire State building took 2 years of cement trucks running every 15 minutes 24x7 to construct. Use this as a benchmark to estimate how long it will take just to clear the rubble of the World Trade Center.
An Act of War requires the appropriate response: War. This was the act of a terrorist, and of course requires that a declaration of war be handed to them - but how do you do that when they claim no nation?
I'd like to offer a suggestion - All of them. This may be the act of one terrorist group, but in a very real way, all terrorist groups are to blame. The premise of a terrorist act is one part revenge, one part to call attention to their cause. It has worked in the past because no one has been able to 'draw an appropriate line' that shouldn't be crossed without consequence.
We have plenty of intelligence on suspected or known terrorists. In kind, to this attack, we first declare war on ALL of them, and then declare war on those who harbor, support (financially or otherwise), or train these groups. Once war has been declared on these nations [of which I'll mention a few in a second] they receive the opportunity to have their nation removed from the declaration by handing over or providing evidence of the demise of those individuals we know or suspect of terrorist actions. Every last one of them. And until those requirements are met, that nation is at a state of war with the US and will suffer attacks at our hands.
For those nations who have no intention of helping find these groups, we attack them first in full force and occupy their country until the conditions are met. Their major cities will be held under house arrest until the terrorists are brought to us for investigation, and punishment where a crime can be proven. Those nations who are hesitant will be next, and so on, until every nation realizes that to allow these groups to plan in their back yards, they risk occupation and war with the USA. The Muslims are not to blame, by the way, but there are those in power in these countries who have responsibility for protecting them (I'm sorry to say it, but Yasser Arafat has in the past and present protected known terrorists). They must be held accountable, and war is the only way to get that accountability.
The offending nations for these terrorist acts are (short list) Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Columbia, Ireland (I know, who'd have thought? But they too have threatened America about our support of England, and bombed to get the word out - they are terrorists, and after yesterday, I have no sympathy for them), North Korea, and even our own country that allows known domestic terrorist factions to live peaceably while they plan. During a time of War, these people become the enemies of our nation, and our nation has a right and an obligation to defend itself 'against all enemies, foreign and domestic'. If this is to be their declaration of War against the US, then let it be War.
Ctimes2
PS - please don't think for a second that I _WANT_ a war, there is a very good chance I'll have to fight in it on the front lines. I'm a rifleman in the US Marines, and would much prefer to stay home and enjoy this country I love. But I find it very hard to see us still trying to figure out what's "appropriate" and "just" when my fellow Americans are being pulled from the ashes on our own soil.
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
http://www.cetan.com/wtcpics/
Thumbnails and large images.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
The Long Tomorrow ... some folks in the Middle East are cheering. For now.
I'm mirroring what I can at crystalflame. Hopefully this will provide some usefulness to y'all for getting access to these pictures.
Thanks for making it obvious who the real threat to humanity is.
What a shame you couldn't have been right there on the scene to experience it as up close and personal as possible.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The thing is, the US can't win. If we don't act, then we are accused of "not caring about anything that doesn't happen in the US". If we do act, then we are accused of imperialism.
Perhaps the rest of the world perceives the US to only act internationally for its own interests. This would explain the "can't win" situation. In other words, if the US only intervenes internationally when it will protect US economic or other interests, then the "they don't care, damn imperialists!" attitude may be justified.
Think Afganistan, Kuwait, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Central America and all the other self-serving and sometimes less-than-successful US actions internationally.
I, personally, am not anti-US, but I think many of you Americans are quite blind to the justice of your actions around the world, at times. Kudos to the many posters who argue reasonably and encourage us all to see the many sides to this issue.
Christopher
Mozilla
This is what it seems to me. First of all, i watched this all day long. Mysteriously, the 8 planes, with 3 unaccounted for changed to 4. No mention was made to the other planes after about 1 00. We had a plane crash outside of Camp David which was quickly dismissed as a hoax (?). Personally, i think these planes (or if camp david plane never existed, at least PA plane) were brought to the ground by force. I've heard a number of people on the radio share my opinion.
I read on CNN that a cell phone call made from the PA plane said that an explosion was heard, and smoke was seen. Where is that article now? I can't find it. I'm very suspicious about what went on.
Don't get me wrong. If that plane was shot down, they did what they had to do. And don't get all defensive and American. CNN is a great news source, no question. I just can't find this article, and regardless of what you say, I did read it.
Many months ago, when yugoslavia was being bombed, there was a lot of talk in the media and here on ./ about "easy" wars for the usa, where they only had to spend some money on missiles, and not any human lives(that is, american human lives). That was absolute nonsense, and now it shows.
First, i want to tell those people that reclaim vengeance--"those who did it will have to pay for it"-- that the people who did it are already dead, they killed themselves willingly to strike hard on the USA. That is easily said, but you have to stop and think what kind of background a person like this one has, surely not a happy one with family and friends and material life assured, his life must have been very painful. Now I'm not telling you "poor terrorists, they had a very bad childhood", my poin is, where can you find people desperated like this, in great quantities(i think 20 is a great cuantity, for items like this)?
In wars. Wars destroy the lifes of many people, killing friends, family, and destroying all that one loves, and leave people that has no purpose nor will to live, aside for venjeance, and USA has been waging wars in many countries on the world, be it lightning "surgical" operations, bombings, invasions, or comercial blockades(this is the worst slower way of killing nations, IMO). ANd have created a lot of people like this. Now one of these individuals alone may be incapable of doing anything by himself, but when he finds others like him, and organizes, he is the worst enemy, for he has nothing to lose.
As I said first, there are no wars without risks, even when you are so tecnically superior that you're confident not even one of your soldiers will die battle, you are creating desperate people with thirst of vengeance, and what happened yesterday was something that while it could be seen clearly coming, hubris has veiled it until it happened. Now, there are dead civilians, american civilians, killed in a counterattack(who did it? dunno, too many enemies made during too many years...), still a mote in the millions USA has killed in other countries, but enough to show that there no are risk-free wars.
s was stolen from the New York Post
By STEVE DUNLEAVY
New York Post
September 12, 2001
THE response to this unimaginable 21st century Pearl Harbor should be as
simple as it is swift - kill the bastards.
No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them
in a court of law.
I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of
cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them
if you have to.
President George W. Bush should right now be putting his name to a fresh
document - one that rescinds Executive Order 12333, signed by President
Gerald Ford on Feb. 18, 1976.
It reads in part: "No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United
States should engage in assassination or conspire to engage in
assassination."
Right for that time, wrong for this time.
[You can sign an online petition urging repeal of this executive order by
going to http://www.libertypetitions.com]
Train assassins (we've done it before), hire mercenaries, put a couple of
million bucks up for bounty hunters to get them dead or alive, preferably
dead.
As for cities or countries that host these worms, bomb them into basketball
courts.
No, it won't bring back the thousands of innocents and the brave cops and
firefighters lost, but it might stop the sacrifice of other innocents.
"This is an act of war of an enormity that is staggering," Sen. John McCain
of Arizona said yesterday.
Former Secretary of State Gen. Alexander Haig said: "We should be ready to
take resolute action, which we have failed to in the past."
The point is that Osama bin Laden has been at war with us for a decade -
make no mistake, he's behind the attacks.
At the beginning of the year, he issued a video to his followers urging them
"to penetrate" the United States.
Only three weeks ago, he was quoted in an Arabic newspaper saying he was
preparing a big action against our country.
He is the sole individual who has the billions of dollars, the training
camps and the fanatics to have perpetrated this sophisticated bloodbath.
Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich said yesterday: "This wasn't
planned in a handful of homes by a handful of fanatics."
When we put a rocket in the pocket of Moammar Khadafy, he went as quiet as a
mouse.
If the CIA can't find this ameba Osama Bin Laden, leave it to someone else.
We should give the Taliban, which protects this monster, 24 hours to clear
the city of Kabul of innocent civilians and then start the process of urban
renewal with high-altitude bombing.
Then we should go into the interior, hunt down the desert rat and execute
him and his followers on the spot.
And if Saddam Hussein makes so much as a peep, do him, too.
The time has come.
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
I don't. I think the lesson here is that we've been too leniant. We know he was behind other terrrorist attacks, we know the Taliban sheltered him, to me that's all we need to know to start the carpet-bombing. Ok, maybe not carpet-bombing, but every military and goverment building in all of Afghanistan should be blown out of existance. No distinction between terrorists and those who harbor them said Bush and I actually agree with him.
And forwarded them on to your nearest FBI office - you may have something, maybe, maybe not - but by your fuzzy recolection of the address on the WHOIS record, it sounds like you don't...
:(
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I think rebuilding them wouldn't be such a good idea. I for one will never want to work in any place as central as this.
Workers and offices need to be spread more evenly. It is impossible for terrorists to attack then, if everyone's working at home using the net.
You get the point. 99% of the people have thanked me for providing the resource; if you don't like it, I'm sorry.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
TBS, TNN, TLC, even Speedvision switched to non-stop news. This is unprecidented AFAIK.
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
I have no problem with people having faith or even beliving in some god. My point was that certain basic tenets of their values are inherently incompatible with peacefully coexisting in a complex world. They must be assimilated and their children indoctrinated with Democracy and Capitalism.
AP is announcing that a police/FBI raid is occuring at the Westin hotel right now: Story HERE!
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
I am listening to our Senate on CSPAN at this time. It is repetitive. Each senator talks of anger, fear, resolve, compares to Pearl Harbor. I hear talks of revenge, "they will pay the highest price", "make those who harbor these criminals comply", "The first attack will not be the last. We must prepare ourselves for the worst. And take this fight in places that we are not prepared." Not that these talks are bad; but they did not seem to be balanced with concern for democracy. They seem to be driven from rage.
In particular, there was a complete lack of talk regarding our "country image". This is no longer the 70's when we could fund dictatorships with arms and money. We must be far more careful and use our money and power not to opress, but as a force of freedom. Clearly our behavior in the middle east could be much better.
Put yourself in palenstinian shoes. Imagine your father being humilated in front of you (stripped and then walked on or something that stupid) and then shot with an American M16 with American Apache helicopters over head. What do these people begin to think? Imagine having to wait through a 2 hour check-point just to get to work, and then 2 hour line up on the way back; showing your id, randomally corralled and cavidy searched. Seriously. You would grow up completly numb. Completely without value. Irrational.
Sound like our terriorists, hunh? What happens if we actually *made* those terrorists with our own actions? What do we have to say for ourselves?
I say now is not the time for comdemnation, but a time for reflection. Let us not judge those less we walk in their shoes and drink from their cup. Let us not restrict the freedoms of others less we loose our democracy. Let us follow the doctrine of the second testiment, the god of compassion. Let us not give fishes, but teach those in need to fish. Let's stop being so selfish and self-righteous. Only when we have humility can we truly be in the position to defend ouselves to the world, and then we won't have to. Reasonably people will abhor talks of terrorism against the united states.
Kind Regards,
Clark Evans
i was watching CBC last night and they were playing up a "canadaian connection" (mostly about the guy trying to get from BC to WA in 12/99 and about the airline hijacking a year or so ago) - but none of the US networks that i saw even mentioned canada.
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
Since when is civilization==amerika ?
other questions
Power. The power of our country, and it's ability to create superior technology.
Remembrance. The new building should pay respects to those that died in this horrible incident.
Perspective. We should not dwell on this for the rest of our lives...
Peace. It needs to be a symbol of peace.
Not sure how to get all that into a single building, but I am sure that it can be done.
There is nothing that says that a building can not be a monument as well.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
Remember that /. is more or less a place to pick arguments, and that is what I saw yesterday on this site. Please tell me how you can watch people jump out of the world trade center in saddened panic and then respond with the devil's advocate position.
There can be no doubt in my mind that Canada is the source of this great terrorist evil. While the rest of you are off blaming those in the Middle East, I think we should turn our suspicious gazes to the north. Here's why I think we should blame Canada!
First of all, their rapid offer to help aid our wounded is clearly a sign of guilt. Their troubled consciousness for doing this to us prompted them to lend a hand. Not only that, it's clearly a tactic to deflect blame.
Canada is responsible for several other terroristic attacks on the US. Don't believe me, eh? Was it not Canada that produced and then sent to us Celine Dion? How about Trey Parker and Matt Stone? They came from Canada and even to this very day, their efforts persist to corrupt and dirty the minds of our innocent children with foul language and toilet humor. They even ADMIT this in a feature length, Hollywood production!
Look at those beedy eyes! Just look at them! Are those not the eyes of terrorists!?
The Canadian Menace MUST be stopped, and at all costs! Otherwise, horrendous tragedies such as those we witnessed yesterday all across the eastern United States will continue. I urge our leaders to take whater actions are necessary! You want a huge glass parking lot in the Middle East? PAH! I say we flash their tundra regions to steam!
Look, the outpouring from Slashdot is nice and all but NYC!=OKC. We saw catastophe, we cried, and now we're trying to figure out when we can get back to our offices (mine is 7 blocks from the towers).
Last night I went to a bar and while alot of us were glued to the TV and making phone calls, others were shooting pool and having an okay time.
NYC prides itself on being tough-as-nails and kudos to Giuliani for conveying that to America. You saw no photo-ops of him surrounding himself with school kids for a "moment of silence" like GWB when what was needed was action.
These claims, while highly doubtful, make it clear that again, terrorism is highly elusive and difficult to grasp. Anyway, slashdot them out of existence.
check it from here:
http://www.inq7.net/nat/2001/sep/13/nat_4-1.htm
I'm not sure you know what ambulance chasing is. It's when a lawyer offers legal services to someone who's just been in an accident.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Ask yourself: Who has the most to gain if the US directs it's anger and military might against the Arab world?
You're using her as bait, Master!
With the request of many radio stations and mass emails going around, i too hope you will wear red, white and blue tommorow and replace your favorite sports flag with the american flag.
If not for the "pledge" to the united states, then do it for the honor, valour and unity of everyone working together.
This country is going to have to return to the harsh lessons of previous wars: if you want to make an omellete, you have to break some eggs.
Please send this letter or something similar to your representatives in Congress. Email is largely ignored, so I recommend printing and mailing.
Encourage your family, friends, coworkers and neighbors to do the same. Billions of dollars will be needed to rebuild the damage. Donating money is a good deed, but the United States must use these billions that we now need, not send it to those who celebrated carnage and destruction.
Excite.com has a poll about what freedoms people would compromise to be free from attacks like this. Travel, Speech, Privacy, None, All or Not Sure. Only 54% said "None". 9% said "All". It is to be expected that people are scared and jumpy right now, but I hope these poll numbers change for the better over the next couple of weeks.
There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
We must smash the people responsible.
The terrorists attacked WTC for two reasons, the first of which is that it was symbolic. The second reason is that it would cause massive loss of life.
Now, back some decades it apparently seemed important, for some reason, to build the tallest towers, etc. In fact, a similar argument was used to go to the moon. That's all well and good, but haven't we moved past that?
Malaysia is the latest nation to believe that having the tallest building somehow enhances its national prestige. Is the U.S. really so insecure that it feels it has to compete with nations like Malaysia on this basis? Or is it a case of needing to impress the primitive folk, both within and without our country?
Wouldn't it be better to focus our energies on protecting our borders, skies and buildings in a way that doesn't diminish the freedoms of the residents of the U.S.?
I'm not saying symbolism isn't important to the human psyche, but perhaps if we got past the "mine is bigger than yours" phase, it might change the nature of the battle for the better.
That, or my ex-boyfriend.
You like to talk of sex and fucking
But indeed, I'm a whore, so do me now!
The USA has invaded Canada 5 times throughout our history... we lost every time. Besides, they make good whiskey so leave 'em alone!
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
mkelley writes: "This is only the beginning folks...looks like the internet is going to be blamed for this...Wired has a story that is sure to cause panic. This is going to be the goverment's way to push wiretapping into your email and web surfing. In this time of crisis, people in high places are going to use this to get their agenda through."
This is about the most arrogant view on this that I can imagine--that your privacy is more important than human life. In my opinion, if installing Carnivore/etc and monitoring my emails would help save the possibly 10,000+ lives that were lost yesterday, I am all for installing it.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING (including my privacy), is worth the deaths of that number of innocent civilians. Keep your politically-motivated banter to a minimum in this time of crisis. Privacy means nothing anymore. Two days ago, maybe protecting your emails was a big deal, but after yesterday, I would gladly trade my future privacy in return for the lives of all those poor people who died and for the future security and safety of my family.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
I'm currently living in France, and only get French television.
Without the mirrors, I wouldn't be able to find out what is happening, and what happened.
I'm very thankful and don't think of it as "Ambulance Chasing" at all. Of course, even if I disagreed with the non-macabre pics being mirrored, Ambulance_chasing would not be the term used.
Where was King Kong when we really needed him (to swat airplanes)?
Did anybody sum up the date?
2+0+0+1 +9 +11 = 23
Oh.
However, I would want our government to make sure that adequate evidence is first presented.
The thing is that we already have plenty of evidence of past acts of terrorism from Bin Ladden. Getting him know and then later finding out it wasn't him would not be a great loss. While we are at it, we should go ahead and use this time as an oportunity to cleanse the world of as many known terrorist as possible.
I'm a graduate from a US university, and am currently back in my own country. I had a chat with my (former) boss in the US a couple of hours ago, and although this may be generalizing it a bit, but from what he says the current sentiment of the common man is that of retribution and retaliation. Especially amongst the highly patriotic, and it's tough not to be patriotic in times like these.
My fear is that the general public, with emotions on full throttle, may tend to overlook the fact that not all muslim people think the same way as Osama bin Laden. Being a muslim myself, I am of the opinion that the senseless taking of countless lives is not something to be proud of.
There are already cases of this scapegoating and finger-pointing taking place. This is in Kansas City, as far removed from NY as you can get. So imagine what the muslim community in NY, who in and amongst themselves MAY have friends and family who are victims of the attack, may be facing.
I just hope this doesn't bring about a new rash of racism and hate-mongering among the population.
The Wknd Sessions - Malaysian and South East Asia independent music
Slant-Six is running some interesting articles about the situation, including a summary of the hints the government has been giving us that war is nearly inevitable.
Got Rhinos?
Geeze, I was wondering when someone would say something like that. And I DO say this as someone from a country that has supported bombings in Serbia, among others, something for which I feel deeply ashamed of my country.
The motherfsckers behind the WTC attack *MUST* be found, prosecuted, executed. Not because we hate them, but because they're dangerous, because crime calls for justice. Because we can't let this go unpunished. Because we have to set an example. And we need that example to be one of justice, not vengeance.
As much as gut reaction makes me want to torture them with my bare hands. I have very dear friends in NYC.
If we go after the civilian populations as well, we'll only prove them they're right to think of us as oppressors who don't care for their lives. And then, we won't be worth a dime more than the WTC attackers.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
if anyone wants to know, here are lists of the buisnessness at the world trade center
t ml
t ml
1 World Trade Center (North Tower): http://www.morrisville.edu/Library/wtc/tenants1.h
2 World Trade Center (South Tower): http://www.morrisville.edu/Library/wtc/tenants2.h
The goal of computer science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it.
The myth of Frankenstein, the monster that turns against its creator. Facts:
- Still dont know the perpetrators
- Bin Ladens fight in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union was funded/supported by USA when it suited its purposes, the same can be said of Sadam Hussein fighting Iran or General Noriega in Panama.
- As a result of its policy during and after the cold war, America has direct/indirectly waged wars in foreing soil: Vietnam, Nicaragua, Granada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Palestine, Colombia. The public opinion has always been kept ignorant of the real issues/causes of the problem, everything is reduced to a goodie/baddie situation. War and its horrible consecuences are always somewhere far away.
- Americas latest policy of isolation has obviously not worked, long-ignored problems have come home. Now the pain that other countries have felt for generations is known on the land that has caused a lot of it. Globalisation to the full meaning of the word.
- America has lately been behaving like a rogue-state: not signing the Kyoto Agreement, not signing the non-proliferation of biological weapons agreement, starting the star-wars fantasy missile shield program. All this is contributing to the scalation of the arms race again all over the world: China will increase its defence budget, one of their enemies India will follow, then Indias enemy, Pakistan will follow, etc. It looks like the goverment wants to go back to the paranoid 50s, this will make the arms industry very happy.
Terrible.
Having people brought in so soon (either for questioning or as suspects) worries me a lot. These attacks show a very high degree of sophistication, and not just in their timing (as many news orginizations have bleeted out of late).
First, you have the fly-by-wire system, installed on all big commerical jets, which just plain won't let you fly the plane into a building. This system has to be disabled without completely destroying your ability to manuver. I have been told that there are very few people around who know how to do this. This person would either have to know which planes would be used for the job in advance and then disable those planes while they are sitting on the ground (while also getting around security on the ground and getting into the hanger, and also not doing so much damage that it would be picked up on preflight checks). Alternativly, the person to disable the system could be on the plane during flight, in which case he/she probably knew they were on a suicide mission. The list of people who can carry out such a job AND are willing to commit suicide must be very, very small.
Secondly, there is a matter of how to hit the WTC. Those buildings were designed to take an aircraft smashing into them, so just flying them into a random position isn't enough. What really made the towers collapse (so say the structural engineers) was the fires breaking out and weaking the steel supports at the top, thus forcing the bottom to take on more weight. To do this, you want a plane with lots of gas in it to cause a bigger fire. Indeed, the planes involved were going to the other end of the country, and would thus have lots of gas on board.
There are probably lots of other details I'm missing, but this is enough to show that these attacks are far more sophisticated then a lot of people know.
Now you want to tell me that these highly planned attacks became so sloppy in implementation that people are being rounded up the day after? Given, humans make mistakes (or maybe the FBI got lucky), but this still seems unlikely. This is what worries me. I think the FBI is starting a witch hunt and will arrest anyone, and the American public will back the entire thing.
Not a typewriter
There's an article about this on my site called Amateur Journalism Feeds a Confused World . Yes, I'm spamming my own site, but I think it's at least partially relevant here.
Got Rhinos?
then it'll get right through the U.S. Border.
You don't need missiles to bomb the U.S. You just need a pickup truck to carry what you smuggle in.
Cryptome is run by a New York architect, John Young. He has posted interesting comments on the contraversy surrounding the original buildings. They're a good read.
In a related story, frustrated hacker takes out www.taliban.com as reported here.
So far the best graphics I've found, far surpassing any of the lousy diagrams I've seen on CNN, come from the Spanish paper El Pais. This page includes two interactive, animated flash documents (Grafico -- currently the first two pictures) which shows the paths of all four planes, the way they hit the buildings, and how the supports in the towers got severed, leading to the collapse.
n tilla10.swf and http://www.elpais.es/multimedia/internacional/estr uc.swf .
Helps if you know spanish (which I don't), but the pictures speak for themselves.
The actual animations are at http://www.elpais.es/multimedia/internacional/pla
I fully support the destruction of all supporters of terrorist actions.
You can deal with nations and people who have economic issues at stake. You can't deal with those who's only goal is to see you dead.
I don't see this as a difficult moral issue. You have a neighbor who has said he will do everything he can to kill you. Wipe him out and wipe out those that support him.
Libertarian Party's Harry Browne's position.
"Your comment violated the postercomment compression filter. Comment aborted"
The problem is that many who read those newspapers are going to be influenced by them in various ways. If a newspaper allows itself to be used as a vehicle to express irrational and unrestrained anger and hatred, then I think it should make it clear that this is what it's doing, in the (probably vain) hope that readers won't be led to believe that what they're reading are reasonable responses to the situation.
The date on that page is wrong. It is listed as "September 9, 2001". It should be "Sept 11, 2001"... On September 9, 2001, they celebrated the fact that they had taken their first bath this year.
I think it is a bit irresponsible to place a link to this site, given that there is no way of ensuring accountability for the "safe" handling of the personal information provided to it.
In efforts in trying to help
We will donate to the redcross from every t-shirt sold
or please donate directly to the redcross either by blood or money
The draft proposal would look to invoke NATO's self-defence charter, diplomatic sources and State Department officials told CNN. The proposal, put forward by NATO Secretary-General George Robertson, would call for support of Article Five of the alliance's charter, which is the basic reason for NATO's existence. It spells out the requirement that if one of NATO's members is attacked, all its allies would defend it.
One official put it this way: "A hit for one is a hit for all."
So if Dubya gets all hot in the head, the rest of the world will start building up steam. The article does go on to say that the US will have to "give it details of who had been responsible", but how much evidence they'll need we don't know. A few documents in a car pointing to Osama bin Laden, and away we go.
This cartoon on Monday seems unfortunately timely now.
StuP
It's an act of war. Innocent until proven guilty? innocence is the first casualty, which we lost yesterday. Evidence is not required - we know who our enemies are and hardly need proof to go to war with them. Due process, justice, equal treatment under the law? Those are rights we garantee to our citizens, not the enemies of our nation. Yes, people are calling for open, unabashed barbarism. Civilization is a false impression you've been given by your 50" flat screen HDTV, we all still run around in loin-cloths (albeit brand name loin-cloths) bowing to higher powers and fearing the dark. We are barbarians.
War is not a monopoly owned by the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao or anyone NOT American - it's a violent form of conflict. This one is more than justified, it's required. If an action calls for war, let it come. Do not hide behind a curtain of 'justified reaction, respect for man,' or any of that other bullshit. There will never be, nor can there ever be 'justice' for what happened, but we can exact retribution. Without that, our nation has lost it's resolve.
Yes, it's barbaric. So be it.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
The term that rather sour dispositioned individual should have used was firetruck chasing.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
AOPA Has information on when the airspace system will be reopened. I expect it will be a few days till its back to something like normal over much of the country and the weekend till its OK in New York and Washington DC.
And I would expect the state of emergency in NYC to continue threw Rosh Hashonah next week. It will be quite strange driving into New York City this Friday for Shabbos and Yom Tov.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
...that although the country - if not the majority of the world - can be brought to a standstill by this tragedy, yet I still get my full daily dose of spam in my inbox?
While there is a certain amount of complexity involved in this, I wouldn't say that this is beyond Bin Laden's capabilities. Remember that a few years back they managed a coordinated attack on two embassies in Africa within minutes of eachother. So they definitely are capable of the logistics necessary to pull off this kind of attack. Let's look at what is really required to pull this off:
1) Terrorists with the ability to fly an airplane, a skill that can be readily obtained at any number of places given money to pay for it (and certainly Bin Laden has cash).
2) Knives. Knives are VERY easy to get onto a plane. I have more than once wondered why nobody questioned my bringing of a pocket knife, etc, on board. When I heard about what happened my first assumption was that it had been done with knives (not good for taking on counter-terrorists, but if you don't plan to ever land the plane they are very effective).
Now, given that, the actual hard part is setting up the terrorist cells to pull this off and plan the operation. It was probably executed by four seperate cells opeating independently but with a coordinated schedule. It's likely that each cell had NO IDEA that other planes were involved. Somebody centrally plans where to strike, which planes to take, and then just issues orders to the cells.
Don't get me wrong, Iraq is definitely on the top of a short list of suspects, but I don't think Bin Laden can be reasonably rules out given his history. At the same time, I agree that we shouldn't leap to conclusions.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Canadians alway seem pissed off if the US media pays too much or not enough attention to them.
I have been monitoring alot of online, TV and radio media in the last two days and have not heard Canada mention once except that International flights are being routed to Canadian airports. Thanks you. As one poster noted here it was the CBC (the state sponsored media that is making a big deal of this).
So cool your jets a little. The US media has not mentioned Canada's generous offers since they are little busy right now. BTW they have not much mentioned offers from either countries either.
Oh yeah, please ignore some of the other ignorant, immature responses to your post, stupidity of the character knows no bounds.
Can anyone provide me some links or server and group names?
- Every single traditional news outlet basically failed yesterday, and if it weren't for mirrors of such sites' data, we wouldn't understand the events of 9-11 as clearly.
Interestingly, the major news outlets that didn't fail was the Washington Post. Why? They use the Akamai infrastructure, which provides distributed caching of static content. The Post pages were quite nippy, even during the first hours. (Ironically, one of the victims of the WTC crashes was the co-founder and CTO of Akamai.)What does revenge possibly solve? Killing is wrong, period. Killing more people is not going to bring back those already fallen. Killing more people is not going to make the world a better place. We must take a stand that violence must end, that we will not take it, and that we are not going to stoop to their level.
Have you seen the situation with the Palistinians in Israel? Israelis have been targets of terrorism for decades, and have been "retaliating" for these attacks for decades as well, with bombings, missile attacks, land troops, etc. All that has happend is an increase in hostility and loss of life on both sides.
There are ways of preventing this that actually work. Let's not make the situation worse by causing yet more death and destruction. The world had enough of that yesterday. We need no more today.
fear this:
http://www.azzam.com/html/talibanhelp.htm
Please give your mod points to others, Im at the cap. They will appreciate it more
I keep thinking about how these events could have been thwarted. We probably cannot prevent every single hijack attempt, especially not such a sophisticated one. But my mind keeps wandering back to the fact that the hijackers only had razors and knives. I can't believe fellow Americans would allow a few hijackers armed with knives to take over a whole plane, containing 60 or 70 able-bodied persons. A report on Poliglut indicates that people DID attempt to overcome the hijackers on the plane that was headed toward Camp David. The only thing I can think of is that the passangers were not told they were going to be killed, so were just going along with it. However, this is refuted by the calls the flight attendent on flight 77 (I think) made, indicating that the terrorists "put" everybody, including the pilot, at the back of the plane, and then *told* them to call their loved ones to tell them they were going to die. I don't understand how two or three terrorists can simply move the entire 60-70 people to the back of a plane (armed only with knives mind you), and *then* tell them that they were going to die, with not ONE person attempting to overcome them. I'm boggled, and hope that in a similar situation I would do my best to thwart the hijackers. Perhaps, like on the Camp David plane, the hijackers told the passengers they had a bomb and thus the passengers did not want to try anything funny. But if you're being told you are going to die anyway, who cares...might as well try...
I really hope that Americans tried to do something...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
To give money via Paypal: http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/rel ief-outside
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This money will go directly to the American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund and is tax-deductible.
To give money: write a check and mail it either to your local chapter (made out to "National Disaster Relief Fund") or to the national address at:
American Red Cross
PO Box 37243
Washington, DC 20013
To give blood immediately: GO TO your local American Red Cross blood donor center, expect waits. Check news media and/or the Red Cross Web site (http://www.redcross.org) for details. Note that many local chapters have Web sites which have local information and are not overloaded. If Red Cross donation centers are full, check local hospitals and news media for blood drives.
To give blood in a few days: call your local American Red Cross chapter for information or make an appointment through the national number 1-800-GIVE-LIFE.
The desperate need for blood will continue for weeks.
To donate your time or services: go to your local American Red Cross chapter HQ and volunteer your services, they are swamped.
If you have _real_ intel regarding NYC or Washington DC, something you saw personally (please don't waste their time):
https://www.ifccfbi.gov/complaint/terrorist.asp
I agree.
We are at WAR. This is not an ideal world. This is very much a very flawed world and one of the unfortunate side-effects of this fact is the necessity to wage warfare. I am absolutely appalled at any person, regardless of nationality, who could have any other reaction to this mess other than to strike back and strike back hard, for the sake of humanity! This is a time for sacrifice. These people have shown us they are willing to die for their cause, which apparently is to destroy us. And I don't think I need to remind anyone here that with the advancement of technology, these people are only going to have more tools at their disposal. Unless you want to eliminate your liberty and freedom, including the freedom to freely disseminate knowledge and technology, we must eliminate these people as soon as possible before they literally take the whole world down. These are drastic times calling for drastic measures.
Yesterday, many hard working American people made the ultimate sacrifice in their pursuit of liberty and freedom --they gave their lives. I can only pray that they now truly realize the value of that sacrifice. It is now our responsibility as survivors to carry on that legacy. So, instead of arguing about whose fault it was and whose to blame, why don't you get off your ass and decide what your sacrifice is going to be. We are in a war and time is running out.
I'd most certainly pass. I leave death defying defiance to hotter heads. Pick your battles.
Wow. Great summary, I have perhaps a new hope for the Libertarians!
...
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth - that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a PanAm plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government tried to convince the world it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment - that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent people - while the presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?
What to Do
What should be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and un-American - that this is not a time to question our country or our leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?
The boston newspapers web sites are down.
And you're a AMERICAN?? No wonder NY got bombed.
Guess who'll win if the 50+ people have the guts to rush them all at once. This boils down to people thinking that they'll be allright because the nice terrorists will let you go once they get what they're asking for- that's what we've all been told.
In that situation, you're in reality dead until out of dumb luck they let you go or you're rescued by someone else- or you win your life back.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
It's very important that we not let terrorists pull our strings. Certainly, closing up newly discovered vulnerabilities is reasonable -- depending on how it's done -- but the best "revenge" really will be to not be swerved an inch by this attack.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Lord,
The world is an ugly place today. We see the destruction and pain that evil has visited here. You are with me and with us all, but as we look back at the aftermath, it is easy to be fearful. Take this fear from us. Replace it with the quiet assurance that nothing escapes Your view. Nothing happens without a reason. Show us how to look to You for protection. Remind us of the faith we may have lost. Ease the pain; qwell the fears. Pour down Your love into each heart and let that love bind us together as brothers and sisters.
Amen
Putting questions of blame aside for a (very brief) moment, I would like to mention that I've always found it interesting to substitute "Emmanuel Goldstein" for "Osama bin Ladin" in all news stories
I was just wondering what others thought of the "evidence" they have found in the rental car and the luggage that didn't make the connection flight - things like a copy of the Koran and Arabic flight training materials. As coordinated and planned as this attack was, I find it hard to believe that the attackers would leave such obvious clues behind. Maybe, just maybe, they would leave stuff behind that would point where many want to look anyway, regardless of if it actually was indicative of who they actually are?
I personally spent ten years in the US Navy so I am talking from experience and not out of my ass. There is nothing that saddens me more than a bunch of american candy asses crying about civilian casualties. Targeting only hostile govt and military facilities does very little to change a nation. In order to have the desired effect the hostile nation must feel the pain deeply to resolve change. To cause this much pain civilians govt and military targets should be treated as equal and I think in this case will be. War is not pretty, it is a tool. How many innocent lives where taken yesterday? Should we care about civilian casualties, no I am totally for indescriminate targeting of anyone or any nations involved in this.
I also call for a immediate deportation of all H1B and foreign VISA holders.
This Article has some good updated info on what the US has found out about the terrorists so far.
So you think all people in Egypt and other countries in the region was celebrating? Then you are really stupid. I wouldnt be suprised if there are as many happy americans as there are egypts!
Get your We-are-better-then-you-attitude outta here!
That what go in to this situation in the first place!
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Given that one of the pilots appeared to be a student at Embry-Riddle, he's be familiar with the devices.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
asshole!
I'm not saying this is going to happen, in fact, I think it's unlikly, but what did the US do after it dropped the first atomic bomb? Dropped another. Why? To show that we could do it again. Result: Japan surrendered.
I keep thinking to myself that the reason no one has stepped forward and claimed resposibility is that the attack isn't over. Once airlines are running again, I fear a second wave of terrorism.
If you think about it, the FAA would have to ground planes until they are able to establish new security procedures nation-wide. That alone would badly damage our economy. Not to mention that I'm sure none of us would feel safe at home or at work for awhile.
Just my horribly pessimistic 2 cents.
As history will remember it, it is the begining of www 3. It is time to learn drills..for you will be called next. Let us hope we will win this won without much lose of life.
The article in the Boston Herald states
that a voice from the first plane said
"we have more planes". Why, in the 15 min
delay until the second plane approached,
(and the third, and the fourth...) weren't
any planes scrambled , at least to intercept
the liners, if not to shoot them down
above crowded areas ? I know from personal
sources that there used to be a permanent
guard by two Mirage fighter planes at a small
airfield two minutes from Paris...but this
dates back to cold war era, maybe such measures
were abandoned until yesterday.
I also remember from some Forsyth or Clancy book
that all flights in USSR had a steel door,
to the cockpit, permanently closed
during flight, and some armed KGB man
near to this door. Time to revive such measures ?
The Nostradamus verses are very disturbing.
At least, it seems from that source
that eventually the
West will triumph of the Muslims...
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Why should we increase our support of Israel ten-fold? So that we can get attacked again? It's high time we realize the we are vulnerable, and will always be vulnerable as long as we maintain an open society. Does that mean that we shouldn't respond to this latest attack? Of course not. But at the same time, we should realize that our foreign policy is literally driving large numbers of people into suicidal frenzys!
Rather than go into a blind rage of fury, we need to look long and hard at how the rest of the world views our policies and talk about whether the risk those policies create offsets the benefits. We may very well find that the lives lost in NYC yesterday are the price we pay for cheap gas. After all, oil is the only reason we give a damn about the middle east. I know I'm being overly simplistic, but the reality is that our actions have consequences. We need to be willing to talk openly and honestly about these things. Letting the rage of the moment cloud our judgement in this time of crisis is the worst thing we can do.
I know that ground support for most such things would be very important, but it really seems like these people wouldn't have needed any help once the planes were in the air, and wouldn't have needed more people in advance.
People have sited the close timing of the attacks, but that would only take an afternoon with a set of flight schedules. Getting groups of people on a set of planes at the same time is the sort of thing that anyone planning, say, a family reunion can pull off, and get on one of the planes themselves.
The weapons seem to have been small blades attached to plastic handles. These are neither hard to come by, nor hard to get in sufficient quantity, nor hard to get by security (someone clean-shaven who doesn't want to check luggage?), nor hard to assemble.
The hard part really would be getting a group of people who could fight effectively with knives and could frighten people into obeying with some people who could fly airliners, who were willing to die intentionally, without tipping off any intelligence agencies; but if the group has formed, there's no need for more people left behind (aside, perhaps, from a spiritual leader; but the leader doesn't need to have any idea what's going on).
Probably the hardest thing would be thinking of the attack in the first place-- noticing that it would be easy to take control of an airplane, and that an airplane would make a very effective weapon. But again, there's no reason that the person who realized this couldn't have been one of the people who went along.
We will probably find out that the terrorists had families and friends, and that some of these had some idea about the plans, because even determined terrorists can't always keep a secret. But, for instance, bin Laden probably actually didn't know what the plans were, or exactly who was involved, even if the terrorists turn out to be from his group, precisely because he wouldn't want to be vital as a living person to the success of this and other acts; he'd want to be able to say that the reason it worked was simply because there are people who are both clever and sufficiently angry at the US, and that, as long as the US behaves badly, this is certain to happen every once in a while, even without any obvious leaders.
I am not a criminal. There is no reason for the government to be interested in my electronic communication. If allowing the government to "potentially" eavesdrop in on my conversations prevents a tragedy such as the one we have witnessed then I am all for it. I am not one for conspiracy theories, I have faith in the morals of high-level American individuals/agencies, I am Australian.
Pessimism will always exist, it is healthy to be pessimistic of your government, however, when that pessimism leads to the clouding of judgement and stagnation of necessary action, the results may well prove fatal.
Have faith in your leaders, always question their decisions, but never consider your individual concerns over that of your your nation as a whole.
Now snake bites its masters hand. Anybody surprised?
Blame those criminals who are responsisble for this development.
The writing was on the wall since 1992.
Nobody cared to read it. And even now nobody cares.
Praying isn't enough when it comes to decision making.
Thinking may help. Better the US may chose friends more
carefully next time. But as it looks, the next explosive relationship
is ready to go.
that the passengers on the other planes didn't act similarly. However, the word is that the terrorists on the other planes were telling the passengers that they would be alright if they were obedient.
Have we entered into an era where we can't ever again make assumptions about the safety of the passengers? These terrorists have now demonstrated what to do and how to do it; no doubt there will be many, many copycats.
Sad to say, but in a hijack situation, maybe passengers should probably assume they are already dead and do everything possible to bring down the plane before they become a flying bomb. And I hate to say it, but we may have even entered a time where the military would be negligent if they didn't shoot down a hijacked plane heading towards a metropolitan area.
I know that arming crew members with standard firearms is too dangerous in a plane (explosive depresurization etc) but what about giving them something like this (tranquilizer gun): http://www.pneudart.com/projector/proj_179b.html
Especially if there were at least two people armed with those on each flight. (say pilot and head steward/stewardest)
It give them a chance to stop such future trageties in the future.
Just a thought.
==>Lazn
OK, I'm nitpicking, so don't get too excited, but this reminds me a little of Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies, asking for "one million dollars" in ransom money.
A reasonable well-off middle-class retiree in America has millions of dollars in retirement savings. I know a couple of people with net worths in excess of $10 million. None of these people would get very far in funding terrorism except on a very small scale, because a million dollars just isn't that much money any more.
As the Economist magazine put it recently (I'm probably paraphrasing), $100 million is "fuck you" money. Much less than that and you can barely afford to buy and maintain a decent jet, for example.
Media reports recently are saying Bin Laden is worth a billion or more, although I don't know the details. He apparently issues grants to credible terrorists who apply to him with a workable plan, sort of like a terrorist version of an angel investor (I guess that would be a devil investor?)
... have been drawn, and at this point is seems stupendously clear that it's radical, fundamentalist Islam against the rest of humanity --- including millions of Muslims who don't subscribe to their medieval rhetoric of religious war against everyone else. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, the war has been declared. After watching the whole thing out my window yesterday, I personally don't give a fuck whether it was Taliban, Bin Laden, or Hussein, I'd be happy to see all of them sent back to the stone age they so desperately wish to live in.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Sheriff Uncle Sam created the middle east loonies
over the past 50 years under the excuse of kicking
"bad guy ass" when BadGuy==Russkie. And destroyed
the democracy of the country of my birth in the
process. Now that BadGuy==SandNigger they'll
go in and create some even more loony, better
armed nutcases to drive out Bin Laden, and they
will start highjacking and become the next BadGuy
etc etc etc. Terrorism will increase, and the CIA
will deal drugs in schools to pay for it. And the
USAF may bomb some of my relatives. The better
alternative would be to stop this loony
imperialist foreign policy with one not designed
to create terrorists.
To hell with you Christopher. You are naive to think anything less than wiping terrorists out completely will solve this problem.
America has saved this whole damn planet many times over and you are far too ignorant to understand that. America is also responsible for the majority of the economic expansion you enjoy and the technology you use.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. bin Laden has exported his craziness to our country. Now, let's export a few metric tons of explosives and some carefully aimed sniper rounds up his ass (and all others that support terrorism).
Some quick button pushing reveals that 9100 comments have ben posted in the last day.
Brilliant idea. I think it's already been done though, and our trained assassin is running amok.
Select "Disaster Relief Fund" to have your money go towards the people affected by yesterday's attack.
i wanted for some one to say to the terrorist that they will not be able to get a good nights sleep for the rest of there short lives.
Please excuse the consistent use of male nouns and pronouns in the following. It made this easier to write and to understand, so is it that bad this once? Also, please ignore any Owellian reference you think you may see. That's the farthest thing from my intent. Hope this helps a little.
I'm going to write something now that is so thoroughly and utterly Canadian in sentiment, although I'm sure it's a view shared by many other countries and individuals the world over. The United States is like our big brother. That is meant in the most fraternal of ways. It is a role Canada, and many other countries, willingly accept. The analogy is accurate in a number of ways. As the economically and culturally larger, more physically powerful sibling, you sometimes flaunt your power and tease your smaller brethren. But when one of us falls and skins our proverbial knee, you are always first to arrive on the scene, to make sure that everyone is ok, and safe. In return for the safety and protection you provide, we make you laugh, we sing and dance, and make arts and crafts of every kind for your amusement. We do some extra chores for you when the need arises, and we even put up with your teasing. We do this gladly, usually, for the benefit of letting you have your way most of the time, is the ability to fall asleep every night knowing that things aren't going to be so bad tomorrow, because somewhere out there our big brother is looking out for us.
And the best thing is you really seem to relish the situation. America and it's citizens, although as equally capable of being evil and misguided as any population on the planet, inarguably live in the freest and most progressive society in the world. Although other countries all over the earth have certain benefits and advantages over the U.S, when taken as a whole, America is without peer in so many more ways. Have no doubt, you can be cruel sometimes, but you always seem to make up for it in the long run, and certainly you've contributed the most to our home, this beautiful and singular planet we share, and that definitely entitles you to some concessions.
We hate to admit it, and will only do so under a firm twisting of our arm, to make us say uncle as it were, but we do look up to you and we think you're pretty great. Our big brother has done great things; you're the strongest, fastest, smartest, kindest, most noble and good big brother... a little brother or sister could ever ask for. And now you're hurt, someone sucker-punched you when you weren't looking, in your own backyard no less. We are all in shock; we are all hurt, by seeing our protective and kind sibling get rocked back a little bit. Someone snuck up on you from behind and gave you a black eye, and I know I speak for a lot of people around the world, all your loyal brother and sisters, when I say we can't wait to see you get back up again. We can't wait to see you rise to your feet, shake the dust off, and accept our hugs and affection as we try to reassure you that we're right here to offer any help you need. We can't wait to see you gather yourself, re-affirm your bearing, and then go get the guys that did this too you. We can't wait to see you catch up with the bad guys, and wipe them off the face of the earth, once and for all.
We know you'll take your time. We know you're going to make sure you have the right people before you act. We know you'll do your best to protect the innocent as you exact your completely justified revenge. We know you're going to get them this time, no matter what it takes. And we are so happy to know that soon our home, our global neighborhood, will be a whole lot safer for all of us. We are so proud to be your siblings, America. We may argue sometimes, but it's nothing serious... not like this. You really are the best, and we are so grateful for all you've ever done. We couldn't ask for a better friend and brother. Go get them. We've got your back. Peace to each and every one of you.
Years later, a doctor will tell me that I have an I.Q. of 48, and am what some people call "mentally retarded".
Don't know if you guys have seen this, basically it's a google message board where a guy predicts dead on that something terrible will happen on the 11th. Scary.
& th=54ab4d241c34e0cc&seekm=3b8fd177%%40monitor.lans et.com#link1
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
They hit the "headquarters" of our monetary power and the headquarters of our military power, why not the headquarters of our political power as well? (that would also make the White House a potential target)
I don't think the last plane was headed for the Pentagon, I think the only reason they sent two planes at the WTC is that they couldn't take out two buildings with one plane.
I'm not trying to flamebait here, rather I'm thinking the length and breadth of retaliation in this horrible case.
.AND.
If we are dealing with an enemy who does not understand more passive diplomatic channels
If we are indeed dealing with an enemy who is not afraid to die to the last man (via our own commercial airplanes or otherwise)
->
Then would anything but total anihilation do the trick ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
From looking at the various accounts of what happened, it is obvious the terrorists somehow managed to gain control of the plane. Barring inside jobs from certified airline pilots who would have somehow managed to infiltrate the airlines, and assuming the people initially controlling the planes are the good guys, we should re-think the way PLANES are built and the processes surrounding loading and boarding planes, so that:
bleah.
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
Modern trains like they have in Europe and Japan are *way* better than planes. Better for the environment, you travel downtown to downtown and they can't be hijacked. I hope the US and Canada move in this direction.
I dug into airliner black boxes last year after the Concorde disaster and I found some interesting stuff:
That, and now they lay under tons of rubble. Or, they could have been vapourized. Then again, I don't think I really want to know about the last terrified moments of those poor souls (unless the terrorists were discussing bin Laden's address and phone number before they died)
Here's a bit about these amazing little boxes: Whups... some of these appear to be stale - but you could probably still google them.
As with everything else where judgement is tempted, keep in mind that this email itself may be fake (i.e. not really from someone who wants to defend spam).
Miko O'Sullivan
The best "revenge" for this attack is to shake it off and go forward as if nothing happened. If a mosquito stings you, you don't drive your car into a tree. You accept a little itchy bite, you swat the mosquito *if it's convenient for you*, but your car doesn't swerve an inch.
We do need to close any newly revealed vulnerabilities. We should also try to identify the perpetrators and perhaps kill them, if it's convenient for us.
I'm not advocating forgiveness here. I'm advocating ignoring, which is the worst punishment you can give a terrorist. I'm saying that the purpose of terrorism is to leverage small resources into big effects on your target. The whole point is try to cause huge trouble for America overall, not to kill a tiny fraction of 1% of Americans. Perhaps they can get America to overreact in all sorts of ways, bringing more nations over to the "enemies of America" camp to join the perpetrators, messing up the economy, etc.
I say we don't let them have their desired outcome. We reduce the effect of their actions to the deaths and injuries they actually caused, we clean up, close up some vulnerabilities, we swat them if it isn't too much effort to be worth, but we move on basically as if it never happened.
We're in control, not them.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
An AC just wrote: The attacks yesterday actually are the end of hijacking. Up until yesterday, people on a plane could assume they would live through it by cooperating. Now, people on the plane will fear they'll die even if they cooperate, and be used to kill thousands more. Three guys with little knives won't be able to take over a plane full of passengers. They may kill many passengers, but the hijackers will be beaten into bloody pulp.
And what do you think is going to happen when a fire-fight breaks out on an airplane, especially one where the fuselage doubles as fuel storage?
1)Airplane full of dead passengers.
2)Civilians on the ground in danger of being hit by flaming wreckage.
That is quite and improvement over the currant situation. All a terrorist needs to do to crash a plane is shout "I have a gun!" and wait for geniuses like you to shoot it down from the inside out.
When are you gun nuts going to realize that:
1)They are not going to protect you from a determined attack.
2)They make you a threat to everyone else, criminal and bystander alike.
Every American who's ever raised the Flag has joined the war against those who would remove our freedoms. The United States of America was founded upon a foundation of stone and we as a populace will stand sure footed as we defend every last principle for which we stand.
There is a continual usage of the term "innocent civilians". I would challenge that we all are defenders of the United States of America and as such are not "innocent civilians," but rather we're still members of the Revolutionary Army. We stand for the same principles which set us free in 1781.
We cannot accept that we are innocent. We are a nation. We are united. And we will fight shoulder to shoulder to oppose the armies of terrorism and those who would adversely affect our freedoms. If you aren't willing to stand and defend democracy then leave. I am fed up with seeing people who "Hate" the USA but are willing to live here, get jobs here and get educated here.
When I see the flag, I remember what I was taught about what it stands for. Yes, I was a boy scout. I raised the flag in front of my school almost daily, honoring it and all it stands for. I am disappointed that people would spit on the graves of all who've died defending that stitched piece of fabric with thirteen stripes and fifty stars.
God Bless America and all it's honorable citizens.
May God's curse be upon those who've caused this to be transpired.
Money means nothing to these people.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
You know what kills me?..Those little bastard-ass Palestinian kids that were cheering when the planes hit...I say we blow them up too..I mean look, apparently those kids are the next terrorist's..They kinda looked like Bin Laben too.
Also, anyone here heard of that band "System of A Down"...There's some crazy coincidences with their new album that just came out, and some of their old songs. They also seem to be Arabic..and the singer looks like Bin Laben too!
Just look at the names of these songs!
Psycho
Jet-Pilot
War?
Prison Song
and these lyrics!
"When your castle breaks, and your feet are dry, Do you ever believe you were stuck out in the, Sky."
"A whole race Genocide, Taken away all of our pride, a whole race genocide, taken away, watch them all fall down. Revolution, the only solution, the armed response of an entire nation, revolution, the only solution, We've taken all of your $***, now it's time for restitution."
Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.
I'm glad to see another viewpoint in the same vein as mine.
After the emotional rollercoaster that was yesterday, a group of us went out en masse to unwind over beer. Our first stop, an Atlanta restaurant/lounge called Mumbo Jumbo, sported not a single television. This was something of a respite, having spent our morning and days surrounded by streaming video on large screens. Six hundred dollars of bar tab later, we moved on to a brewhouse up the street, which had multiple TVs. For a while, a group of us sat outside. After a bit, most of us migrated back in to commune and discuss. Occasionally someone would grab someone else's chin, turn the head, and say "Let it go," but it's a horribly unsimple task. The historic cry of 'Remember the Alamo' crawls to the surface, horribly apropo.
The first few days, we as a country will take the time to save those who were wounded, free those who are trapped, and pray for those who have died.
When the smoke has settled, we as a country will mourn. I myself will be wearing a black armband during this period, and I hope others will do the same. The injured and families of the fallen need to see and know that we support them, and that we care. It may not speed the healing, and it will not erase the scars, but the repairs will be stronger for it.
When the mourning is done, things will change. As a country, we've gotten lax. I travel pretty regularly, and I have no doubt that several of my standard carry on items (such as my Gerber Multitool) will be moved to my luggage. Security inspections will be tougher. Time to travel will be increased.
The coming months will be difficult as things are sorted out. There will be arguments about privacy, and increased pushes for surveillance technologies that could have prevented this. There are many facets to this that will be examined and fought over.
With recently uncovered facts, we now know how these deeds were perpetrated. No guns, no explosions. Simple hand implements and the knowledge of how to use them. Airline staff aren't combat trained, but what if they were? How could things have happened differently if people were better equipped, mentally and physically, to handle a hand to hand attack? Could you defend yourself against someone with a knife? Having studied some martial arts and sword fighting techniques, I'm glad I can say I could hold my own against an untrained attacker or even a slightly capable one.
What about support? How many people reading this are experienced enough to perform first aid or CPR? We have first hand amateur video of a brave doctor rushing into the dense dust and smoke to assist injured people at serious risk to his own life. In his running narrative, he mentions going to assist those who need help, because "he's not one of them." Finding yourself unhurt in a disaster environment, what would you do? What CAN you do?
An interview on CNN yesterday with a security expert who investigated the previous WTC bombing pointed out that this was a 'high concept' attack, as opposed to 'high tech'. We as a country are dependant upon technology to make things easier for us, to take the hard work out life. If not for the macabre aspect of the notion, I'd almost think the Amish were laughing at us now.
To paraphrase a piece of David Eddings fiction (and poorly), the United States reels from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor. Everything is fine as long as the party is still going, and no one gets hurt. Now, in the wake of tragedy, the entire nation is galvanized into awareness of the world around them. Our populace, as a whole, has likely learned more about foreign policy and U.S. world involvement in the past two days than it has been aware of over the past two years.
Many people have likened this incident to the imfamous day of Pearl Harbor, and it's fitting only in that we are now a united people in the sister causes of mourning and vengeance. Many people I've spoken with take small comfort in knowing there will be a reprisal, and that it will be strong and it will not be forgotten.
Even now, other countries and world organizations are moving their pieces and formulating strategy to insure this doesn't happen again. When the reprisals are done, and justice is delivered, then what? What lessons will be learned and how will we apply them?
- billn
It occurred that there ought to be a "safe mode" for planes straying into sensitive airspace on purpose or not.
I would propose a small black box hooked into the avionics system that could lock out normal control input and force the plane to climb to a safe altitude and circle. The circling flight path should be made to that the plane slowly drifts out of the area.
The box would have to be inaccessible from inflight access, and should be triggered by a powerful radio signal with a particular message. The strength of the required signal should be such that it would be literally impossible to generate in absence of a full blown commercial radio station.
Once the plance has drifted far enough away that the signal strenght has gone down, control would be restored. Even if terrorists were to take over a radio station and broadcast the message the consequences would be harmless, and the powerful signal is extremely easy to find and shut down by authorities. In order to overcome this the terrorists would have to attack radio stations on the ground simultaneously with the hijackings. Since there are many commercial stations with high broadcast power in most areas of value, backups are easily found. This idea is hereby submitted to the public domain, and cannot be patented.
ROFLAMAO
;-)
Nice one
conspiracy.
But you wouldn't want mace (or pepper spray) used in a flight.
.25 sec burst).
Why?
Let me relate a personal incident: My GF (at the time) had a keychain style pepper spray device. We loaded it with the inert spray, practiced a while, then loaded it with the real stuff. When we loaded the real thing, the safety accidentally got released, and as it was being loaded, a very small squirt of the pepper spray occurred in our apartment kitchen (I am talking maybe a
We gagged, we sneezed, we choked. Nowhere in the apartment was "safe" from that little bit of pepper spray. We ended up going outside and drove to one of her relative's house, waiting for the pepper spray to go away.
However, in an airplane cabin, with recycled air - there is no "other place" to go to...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
By name.
Everything I've heard says that these terrorists used nothing but knives. How do you convince 50+ people to leave you alone while you crash a plane using nothing but knives?
You convince them that their lives will ONLY be in jepardy if they resist... that they will otherwise go unharmed, and will be returned safely as soon as they've made their point. And I'm guessing even THAT tactic didn't work on the plane that went down in... Pennsylvanian?
This tactic will never work again. No plane-load of people who think they're going to die anyway will go quitely. If there's even a CHANCE that the passengers could resist, hence-forth they WILL.
These men were undoubtedly trained on how to "deal with" people resisting them. That doesn't matter when there's a 10-1 advantage.
And if those people were also armed with... say knives... they won't have a problem SUCCESSFULLY challenging their would-be attackers.
Putting weapons on a plane that can bring it down would be foolish. ESR never mentioned firearms. I carry a swiss-army knife with me everywhere I go anyway... and it has passed through air-port security on several occasions. A taser might not be such a good idea (RF interference and all that), but a nice sharp blade in the hands of each passenger may have prevent all this. I'm no fortune teller, but it soulds quite reasonable to me.
--Mark
I've seen a lot of comments on how US policy is to blame. That our foreign involvements has led to these people hating us which in turn has led to this event.
Bullshit.
No matter what you do, no matter how much you try to appease everyone, someone somewhere can find a reason to hate you.
Hate doesn't need a reason, just a target.
A war needs to be declared, a war on terrorism. I'm not talking about a war of idealogy, like the war on drugs, but one of arms.
If you are a group that promotes the use of terrorism, you are an emeny of the Unites States.
We're coming for you.
You can't hide. Any country that shelters you(ANY country) will also be considered our enemy. After we deal with them(through force of arms), we'll be right back on your trail.
Nowhere to run anymore.
Nowhere to hide anymore.
This war is going to cost us. There'll be lives lost when we occupy Afganistan and lives lost as we invade Iraq.
But I think it's a price we're now willing to pay.
16m28s between the two impacts.
The first tower collapsed 1h42m06s after impact.
The second tower collapsed 56m11s after impact.
ROFL,
:-D
Dude, i am muslim (arab-american) and i think
that was pretty funny.
Keep it up
the more people watching more networks, the fewer get the facts straight.
rehab, captain ahab, you're chasing the wrong fish!
THE REAL PROBLEM IS AMERICANS' ATTITUDE TOWARDS OTHER CULTURES
... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
Im not from the United States but I have been following closely their reactions, at least as they are shown in many posts here in Slashdot.
Statements like "these [who performed the terrorist attacks] are mentally disturbed people with great resources" show the typical american mindset: they are evil people, they are twisted, they are sick, there is no hope in understanding their minds.
While it is true that no noble cause can justify the killing of people, what americans need to do is show a more mature attitude and try to understand the motivation these killers had.
Consider that their cause was so important for them that they were willing to give their lives for it. Certainly one must have a lot of hate for something to be willing to give one's life in order to harm it.
This is no sick twisted people, just normal people, like you and me, with a lot of hate for the american society.
As long as americans refuse to try to understand other cultures and continue to make their selves so hated in different parts of the world, this situation can only repeat itself.
It's simple for americans to say things like "It's time for Sheriff Uncle Same to ride into town, and kick some bad-guy ass". In the typical american mind, they are always the good guys and everybody else is a wicked psycho. Things are not so black-and-white and americans ought to ask themselves what is it they have done to make themselves so hated as to have people rejoice over this incident.
This in the real world, however, are not nearly as simple.
Even in the country I'm living on, in latin america, I have seen persons --mind you, the ones I've seen might not be the most educated persons in the world, just like the average americans-- rejoice over this incident (particularly, two taxi drivers)! These persons seemed happy to see the United States go through this. That even persons in latin america have cheered about this unfortunate situation ought to tell americans a lot about the problems of their attitude towards other cultures.
But I see quotes such as the following in american news papers:
"The response
Another editorial states:
"The world has long known the sources of this cancer. The world knows exactly where it breeds and festers."
It then proceeds to state that this is an open war and the US' only option is to fight the islamic culture, to wipe it off the face of earth.
If the americans understood these cultures better, they would probably not make themselves as hated as they currently are. Consider, for example, how europeans live much much closer to this countries, yet their serious conflicts are with the United States; these arab countries have much better relations with european states.
The americans should try to really find the center of the problem that yesterday became evident yesterday.
According to USA Today, "bin Laden has described the devastation in the United States as "a punishment from Allah," Ismail said. The United States had invited Allah's wrath because it is trying to control the entire world by force [...]." Doesn't this tell us there is a problem with the United States attitude towards the rest of the world, when there are parts of it on which these unfortunate happenings are viewed as well deserved?
Increasing security (taking meassures such as restricting the use of technology (such as cryptography) by the masses, increasing the funds destinated to their security authorities or, like Eric Raymond suggests, allowing everybody to carry guns) can by no means guarantee that this situation will not repeat it self. It is no fairy tale that the United States is one of the most secure nations on earth, yet they are vulnerable to this sort of attacks.
A better solution americans could implement is make sure they don't get to be so hated in the rest of the world. Blaming other countries for not understanding the United States is not going to help them at all. Even if americans were willing to go for it, this solution would certainly take a long time to implement but, in the long run, it's the only one which addresses the main problem.
My most sincere condolences to the friends and families of those who died yesterday. May acts such as yesterdays' never repeat themselves.
Alejo
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ne ws/archive/2001/09/12/national0611EDT0529.DTL
I think, that many foriegn nations, and even many people inside the US truly under, and over estimate us. We are a people, whose government has committed acts that we, as a whole people would and have not condoned. The Iran-Contra affair, the way the war in Vietnam was fought, our dealings in the middle east. One must remember that we are at the best, a representative democracy, and our country's foriegn policies are only as good as the leaders we elect and the officials they emplace want them to be. Though we might not condone what occurs, all we can do is elect new leaders, and hope that they shall act in a manner more befitting of what we believe. If you went to the average citizen of the United States and showed them pictures of what was happening in the current trouble spots and told them why it was happening, they would be appalled. Ethnic cleansing is something we, as a people, cannot stand morally and ethically to see. It is wrong, we have tried to stop it, and the collective voice of the area arose in anger as we did so. We pull out, and once again we are condemned by everyone involved. All too often the US is turned to to resolve problems in the world. All too often we are then condemned for taking the steps that we were asked to take. Go out, and while asking the average citizen how they feel about these attrocities, ask them how they feel about involving our soldiers, brothers sisters sons daughters aunts uncles, in fighting that has nothing to do with our country. We are tired, we have given our blood and our lives for the preservation of freedom, and at times for our own political ends. We have given money to feed the starving, to provide medical aid to the sick, to rescue those trapped by acts of nature and war. Yet, when a horrendous attack as occured yesterday, we see many of the people we once helped, celebrating in the street. Tell me, why should we not be angry? Why should we turn another cheek when so many of our own, innocent lives have been cruelly ripped from our arms? We have, even in our military actions over the last thirty years spoken softly. This act, I am all to afraid will bring out the big stick. You can be sure that if this attack was launched by or from the shelter of a foreign nation, they will all too likely learn the horror that was Nagasaki and Hiroshima. We, the people will be left with the sick pain, of dealing with another such stain upon our history. We are not perfect, not as a group of people, not as individuals, and surely not as a nation, but I ask you, when was the last time a Christian American fanatic hijacked an airplane or made a car bomb, and parked it in a public or religious place of the people who seem to hate us so much? I have heard people spouting that hatred spawns only hate in return, well, I'm sure that the hatred that inspired and drove this attack, be it by middle eastern terrorists, American extremists or a foreign nation will be met with the massed hatred of an entire nation. Never before, has such a brutal attack been forced upon a people who believed themselves at peace.
As the day went on yesterday, I read more and more postings, expressions, outbursts by people who live in nations foreign to the the United States. Many, many of these were sympathetic, and carried the same tone of outrage and pain that I felt myself. Far too many though, carried the tone that "we" the citizens of the United States have brought this attack down upon ourselves, and that every one of those deaths was deserved by the people who died. That "we" had somehow committed crimes against a people that deserved the senseless slaying that followed. This attack, is not one that the people of my country can ignore, can let go with punative actions against the people who perpetrated it. Should those people be foreign nationals, or foreign supported American dissidents and not simply aberrant members of our own society like Timothy McVeigh, then I pity them, whoever they are. If they thought this, would make us cave in, withdraw from their lands, their business, leave them to their own ends. If they thought this would make us withdraw support from factions that oppose them, to allow them the opportunity to press forward attacks on people we count as allies, then they, are horrendously wrong. This, is going to draw swift punishment. The punishment is not going to be light, it is not going to be short. It will be swift, brutal, and have lasting effects for decades. We cannot condone what occurred, we cannot even accept it as the price of being a visible power, as we could attacks on our military and our embassies. Such people have accepted the risks of their profession, one of which is that they might be killed by people hostile to the US. The people in the WTC and the people on those passenger liners did no such thing. They were innocent, and for all we know, hundreds of them may even have supported whatever faction had begun this campaign had it been done in a peaceful manner. To all of you, who propose that the US should withdraw from politics that do not deal with us directly, you have no idea how tempting that is, and you have no idea what chaos that would inspire. What attrocities, what wars, what violations of human rights would occur if suddenly we declared ourselves a true equal nation. What fighting with what weapons would occur in the middle east if we suddenly declared we would take no part in any fighting there as long as oil continued to flow to our shores. What would communist China do, if suddenly the US were not there to hold their advances in southeast and central Asia? What would occur, if instead we do as many voices in the US are urging and simply take care of all foreign problems, so that we can deal with our own internal ones? Do you truly think, that if the US suddenly invaded the Middle East saying that that region was responsible for attacks, that a majority of American citizens would be counter to that right now? How many western nations do you think would object to that latter, if even the slightest of proof was offered up as basis for the attack? Be glad we are a nation that though meddling is unwilling to use the full extent of our power, for we are powerful indeed. Be glad, that we are not the minions of Satan that many religious extremists label us, for though we do posses weapons of hell, we are extremely reluctant, even fearful to use them. Be glad, that we are not an imperialistic nation that uses the full extent of our military to expand our ground. Sure, our government does things, and then must make sure they still 'look good' to the people but without even that minor constraint, think what a monster we truly would be, a monster will still may become. Too many people are far to willing to provoke us into actions that would satisfy their own image of us, an image that is still far too likely to actually occur.
We as I have said before are not perfect. Our own society is riddled with hatred covered only by a thin veneer of civility. We have our crimes our hatreds, and many of them are vast indeed. We have been fighting against racism, and religious persecution since the time of the founding of our country, and we still have not defeated them. This attack only brings to the surface those hatreds, focuses them upon a small group of people and allows us what many feel is the right to take complete and total action against all of that background. That is why, I fear more than anything that this event was put forth by Islamic extremists. Even more than the thought that it was in fact orchestrated by one of our own anti-government groups, I fear that it was done by terrorist organizations in the middle east. You, who live in other countries, even the ones who feel horror and pain and anger do not, in my belief understand the true anger and pain that I and seemingly the vast majority of my fellow Americans feel. There is not, a single person I know who has not been personally touched by this event. One roommate's sister is a stewardess for United Airlines, and had a high possibility of being on Flight 175, for she was on call for that area. Another roommate had an aunt working in the Pentagon, though she was not amoung those in the wing that was hit. I have a cousin who is among the missing, and presumed dead firemen in New York. If, as the mounting evidence seems to support, that this was an attack by middle eastern groups, this will be the opening attack of a war.
Hello?
Where have you people been?
That pathetic attempt at a man has been directly linked to the past WTC bombing, the embassy bombings, and he even claims responsibility for the USS Cole in one of his training videos.
Responsible for this latest attack or not - nail the bastard, and damn the Taliban whom support his criminal actions.
It's time for action, and it's time to stop playing nice with enemy nations. And any nation which harbors terrorists is an enemy of ours.
Bin Laden has been guilty of criminal actions in the past. While I do believe the US should keep searching for the true culprit, to either confirm it as him, or as someone else, I believe one of our first actions should be to eliminate bin Laden. He's long been the most vocal about his ridiculous 'holy war' against the United States. He's killed our civillians before - and he'll do it again.
Make an example out of him. And then, move against the rest. Killing the leaders alone won't work. These people are dedicated to their cause to the point of sacrificing their lives - cutting off the head won't work. No, we need to kill all of them.
"Innocents" be damned. Since when have we cared for innocents? The Civil War - Sherman's March to the Sea. WW II - Japanese American concentration, erm, I mean, internment camps, where death came easy with inward pointed machine guns, starvation and disease. Vietnam.
We're not as nice a nation as everyone would love to believe. And it's time we realize that, and realize also that the nice guys always get beat up. Successful nations aren't nice - they're absolutely vicious in protecting their interests and their citizens.
We should start taking an eye for an eye. How many of our civillians has bin Laden killed? We should eradicate the Taliban and bin Laden's demented troops. And more - for their deaths would not even begin to settle the score.
These cowards may have damned themselves with this latest attack. Instead of fear and terror, we've seen unity and steadfast will. The flood of donors which mobbed NYC hospitals, even with the threat of possible further attacks looming overhead. Democrats and Republicans united. New Yorkers acting civilized!
Our people cry out for blood, and our government will have no choice but to oblige. And, if Mr. Bush is true to his word, oblige us he shall.
It's time to show the terrorists true terror - the terror of a fully aroused United States bringing lethal force to their own doorsteps.
I have heard several news reports say that the terrorists used knives and gained entrance to the cockpit probably by killing stewardesses to trick a pilot into leaving, killing him and entering.
Now, my question is: if there is a significant incident on board an airplane (something to make the pilot leave the cockpit), are they not required immediately to report this to, well, someone?
It seems like if this was how it was done (knives, stewardesses), there would have been advance warning.
Just a question. No flames please.
-l
according to an article (german) of n-tv, a german news channel, the black box of the machine crashed near Pittsburg were found.
Hahahahaha! Oh, that is a good one. VALinux has yet to make a profit. Don't expect to see too much in the way of donations.
I do not want to reply on anything you said. I am more than sad, that in reaction to such violent massacre, that many people are discussing here, some cowards still try to built up that kind of violent, unreflected, aggressive mindset, that might lead lots of people on a way of blood.
With every word I write and that can be read by a lot of people, I have a responibility.
I understand that many people may have aggressions these days, but I ask all of you not to create more aggression.
Thank you.
In order for this scenario to play out, we would have to have, by routine, had jet fighters armed with air-to-air ordinance, and either ready to scramble somewhere within a 10 minute radius, or already in the air. Either that, we would have to equip trained law officers of these municipalities, or post soldiers, with munitions such as Stinger missiles in a position where they could get to the right place in time to make the right shot.
Then there is the issue of what happens if you miss ? If you hit the target, does it cause just as much damage when/where it crashes ? Not to mention if our free U.S. culture would even tolerate armed troopers on every corner ?
Finally, there is an issue of figuring out what's going on and who is doing what and where ? Meaning, there are several planes in NY airspace. Unless the pilot punches in 4 key the transponder code, or gets communications down to the ground that he's one of those "many other planes", how do you a plane that is both a 5 minute proxmity to Newark Aiport as it is to the WTC isn't heading in the direction of the former ?
Of course, as I say this, there are fighter jets, armed and afloat above my offices as I write.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
He means the horizontal center. A glancing blow on one of the corners wouldn't have done it. Remember, the buildings withstood the kinetic energy of the impact. What collapsed them was the burning jet fuel that eventually melted the superstructure. In other words, they had to hit the center in order to put as much fuel within the building as possible.
Why not a "panic" mode that puts everyone in the plane but the cockpit to sleep? Couldn't that simply be done with an air pressure change?
Standard American guide to overthrowing a govenment:
1. Find an opposition movement
2. Do they know how to use weapons? If not, train them.
3. Give them lots of weapons either free or at drastically reduced prices.
4. Ensure them the support of America come the glorious revolution.
5. Step back and ignore the massacres for 5 years or so.
6. Have the opposition won? If so, then declare them the new 'evil government' and return to step 1. Otherwise go to step 3.
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
I don't know which President it was, but it was an american one during the race for space that said:"Our germans are better than their (the russian) germans" - meaning the german rocket scientists that were hastyly brought to the US after WW2 was over.
With all this "OUR tech is all so great" gibberish (honestly, I couldn't care less), it just plain completely ignores the fact that the US are great at marketing foreing tech much more than there good at designing their own. The U.S. makes a shitload of money that way. Not having to uphold the education system that's necesary for top quality personell. We all know that U.S. education is by far the worst in the world when compared to the actuall wealth of the U.S..
Examples for 'foreign' tech? "otto" combustion engine, diesel engine, Fax, mp3, liquid propellant rocket engines, etc, etc,
These are all german tech, but I'm shure there is also some stuff that come from other cultures (such as the digit "zero", which is indian) and prove that what this "canadian newspaper" says is not quite so in the real world.
And for the great U.S.helping the world, how about these: Vietnam (Agent Orange, anyone?), Panama, United Fruit Company, Nigeria, Milosevitsh (heavyly supportet by the U.S when he was on his way to presidency!!!), Bikini islands, etc. etc.
Get real and give us a break, man!
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
If our ancestors had thought as you do, we would still be part of England.
Carefree highway, let me slip away on you.
Charles Lindbergh's Des Moines Speech of 1941
It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.
That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.
At this time, as the war is about to enter its third winter, it seems appropriate to review the circumstances that have led us to our present position. Why are we on the verge of war? Was it necessary for us to become so deeply involved? Who is responsible for changing our national policy from one of neutrality and independence to one of entanglement in European affairs?
Personally, I believe there is no better argument against our intervention than a study of the causes and developments of the present war. I have often said that if the true facts and issues were placed before the American people, there would be no danger of our involvement.
Here, I would like to point out to you a fundamental difference between the groups who advocate foreign war, and those who believe in an independent destiny for America.
If you will look back over the record, you will find that those of us who oppose intervention have constantly tried to clarify facts and issues; while the interventionists have tried to hide facts and confuse issues.
We ask you to read what we said last month, last year, and even before the war began. Our record is open and clear, and we are proud of it.
We have not led you on by subterfuge and propaganda. We have not resorted to steps short of anything, in order to take the American people where they did not want to go.
What we said before the elections, we say [illegible] and again, and again today. And we will not tell you tomorrow that it was just campaign oratory. Have you ever heard an interventionist, or a British agent, or a member of the administration in Washington ask you to go back and study a record of what they have said since the war started? Are their self-styled defenders of democracy willing to put the issue of war to a vote of our people? Do you find these crusaders for foreign freedom of speech, or the removal of censorship here in our own country?
The subterfuge and propaganda that exists in our country is obvious on every side. Tonight, I shall try to pierce through a portion of it, to the naked facts which lie beneath.
When this war started in Europe, it was clear that the American people were solidly opposed to entering it. Why shouldn't we be? We had the best defensive position in the world; we had a tradition of independence from Europe; and the one time we did take part in a European war left European problems unsolved, and debts to America unpaid.
National polls showed that when England and France declared war on Germany, in 1939, less than 10 percent of our population favored a similar course for America. But there were various groups of people, here and abroad, whose interests and beliefs necessitated the involvement of the United States in the war. I shall point out some of these groups tonight, and outline their methods of procedure. In doing this, I must speak with the utmost frankness, for in order to counteract their efforts, we must know exactly who they are.
The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt administration.
Behind these groups, but of lesser importance, are a number of capitalists, Anglophiles, and intellectuals who believe that the future of mankind depends upon the domination of the British empire. Add to these the Communistic groups who were opposed to intervention until a few weeks ago, and I believe I have named the major war agitators in this country.
I am speaking here only of war agitators, not of those sincere but misguided men and women who, confused by misinformation and frightened by propaganda, follow the lead of the war agitators.
As I have said, these war agitators comprise only a small minority of our people; but they control a tremendous influence. Against the determination of the American people to stay out of war, they have marshaled the power of their propaganda, their money, their patronage.
Let us consider these groups, one at a time.
First, the British: It is obvious and perfectly understandable that Great Britain wants the United States in the war on her side. England is now in a desperate position. Her population is not large enough and her armies are not strong enough to invade the continent of Europe and win the war she declared against Germany.
Her geographical position is such that she cannot win the war by the use of aviation alone, regardless of how many planes we send her. Even if America entered the war, it is improbable that the Allied armies could invade Europe and overwhelm the Axis powers. But one thing is certain. If England can draw this country into the war, she can shift to our shoulders a large portion of the responsibility for waging it and for paying its cost.
As you all know, we were left with the debts of the last European war; and unless we are more cautious in the future than we have been in the past, we will be left with the debts of the present case. If it were not for her hope that she can make us responsible for the war financially, as well as militarily, I believe England would have negotiated a peace in Europe many months ago, and be better off for doing so.
England has devoted, and will continue to devote every effort to get us into the war. We know that she spent huge sums of money in this country during the last war in order to involve us. Englishmen have written books about the cleverness of its use.
We know that England is spending great sums of money for propaganda in America during the present war. If we were Englishmen, we would do the same. But our interest is first in America; and as Americans, it is essential for us to realize the effort that British interests are making to draw us into their war.
The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.
It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.
No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.
Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.
Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.
I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.
We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.
The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war. Its members have used the war emergency to obtain a third presidential term for the first time in American history. They have used the war to add unlimited billions to a debt which was already the highest we have ever known. And they have just used the war to justify the restriction of congressional power, and the assumption of dictatorial procedures on the part of the president and his appointees.
The power of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the maintenance of a wartime emergency. The prestige of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the success of Great Britain to whom the president attached his political future at a time when most people thought that England and France would easily win the war. The danger of the Roosevelt administration lies in its subterfuge. While its members have promised us peace, they have led us to war heedless of the platform upon which they were elected.
In selecting these three groups as the major agitators for war, I have included only those whose support is essential to the war party. If any one of these groups--the British, the Jewish, or the administration--stops agitating for war, I believe there will be little danger of our involvement.
I do not believe that any two of them are powerful enough to carry this country to war without the support of the third. And to these three, as I have said, all other war groups are of secondary importance.
When hostilities commenced in Europe, in 1939, it was realized by these groups that the American people had no intention of entering the war. They knew it would be worse than useless to ask us for a declaration of war at that time. But they believed that this country could be entered into the war in very much the same way we were entered into the last one.
They planned: first, to prepare the United States for foreign war under the guise of American defense; second, to involve us in the war, step by step, without our realization; third, to create a series of incidents which would force us into the actual conflict. These plans were of course, to be covered and assisted by the full power of their propaganda.
Our theaters soon became filled with plays portraying the glory of war. Newsreels lost all semblance of objectivity. Newspapers and magazines began to lose advertising if they carried anti-war articles. A smear campaign was instituted against individuals who opposed intervention. The terms "fifth columnist," "traitor," "Nazi," "anti-Semitic" were thrown ceaselessly at any one who dared to suggest that it was not to the best interests of the United States to enter the war. Men lost their jobs if they were frankly anti-war. Many others dared no longer speak.
Before long, lecture halls that were open to the advocates of war were closed to speakers who opposed it. A fear campaign was inaugurated. We were told that aviation, which has held the British fleet off the continent of Europe, made America more vulnerable than ever before to invasion. Propaganda was in full swing.
There was no difficulty in obtaining billions of dollars for arms under the guise of defending America. Our people stood united on a program of defense. Congress passed appropriation after appropriation for guns and planes and battleships, with the approval of the overwhelming majority of our citizens. That a large portion of these appropriations was to be used to build arms for Europe, we did not learn until later. That was another step.
To use a specific example; in 1939, we were told that we should increase our air corps to a total of 5,000 planes. Congress passed the necessary legislation. A few months later, the administration told us that the United States should have at least 50,000 planes for our national safety. But almost as fast as fighting planes were turned out from our factories, they were sent abroad, although our own air corps was in the utmost need of new equipment; so that today, two years after the start of war, the American army has a few hundred thoroughly modern bombers and fighters--less in fact, than Germany is able to produce in a single month.
Ever since its inception, our arms program has been laid out for the purpose of carrying on the war in Europe, far more than for the purpose of building an adequate defense for America.
Now at the same time we were being prepared for a foreign war, it was necessary, as I have said, to involve us in the war. This was accomplished under that now famous phrase "steps short of war."
England and France would win if the United States would only repeal its arms embargo and sell munitions for cash, we were told. And then [illegible] began, a refrain that marked every step we took toward war for many months--"the best way to defend America and keep out of war." we were told, was "by aiding the Allies."
First, we agreed to sell arms to Europe; next, we agreed to loan arms to Europe; then we agreed to patrol the ocean for Europe; then we occupied a European island in the war zone. Now, we have reached the verge of war.
The war groups have succeeded in the first two of their three major steps into war. The greatest armament program in our history is under way.
We have become involved in the war from practically every standpoint except actual shooting. Only the creation of sufficient "incidents" yet remains; and you see the first of these already taking place, according to plan [ill.]-- a plan that was never laid before the American people for their approval.
Men and women of Iowa; only one thing holds this country from war today. That is the rising opposition of the American people. Our system of democracy and representative government is on test today as it has never been before. We are on the verge of a war in which the only victor would be chaos and prostration.
We are on the verge of a war for which we are still unprepared, and for which no one has offered a feasible plan for victory--a war which cannot be won without sending our soldiers across the ocean to force a landing on a hostile coast against armies stronger than our own.
We are on the verge of war, but it is not yet too late to stay out. It is not too late to show that no amount of money, or propaganda, or patronage can force a free and independent people into war against its will. It is not yet too late to retrieve and to maintain the independent American destiny that our forefathers established in this new world.
The entire future rests upon our shoulders. It depends upon our action, our courage, and our intelligence. If you oppose our intervention in the war, now is the time to make your voice heard.
Help us to organize these meetings; and write to your representatives in Washington. I tell you that the last stronghold of democracy and representative government in this country is in our house of representatives and our senate.
There, we can still make our will known. And if we, the American people, do that, independence and freedom will continue to live among us, and there will be no foreign war.
At first:
.. means working with handicaped people. means doing something for the public wealth.
.. well 'jokes' like "the japanese red army" publics "it's a revenge for Hiroshima" did, are normal state you can't blame ANYONE.
,1940, World Exhibition. Long before Israel HE (a jew), did the main speech for palaestinia in the sense that it shall be formed as own country.
... Israel is a faschist country. They act like nazis, i don't blame all citizens there are always good and bad ones, but they camps for people they don't like to have in their neighbourhood and if they think (entitled or not) there are terrorists in a refugee-camp they fire with tanks on it... ??well "HELLO?!! Braincell 1 to Braincell 2 .. are you alright?"
.. laughting my ass off.
... Yeah, it was a fake attack on a radiostation!
.. in Oklahoma all yelled "F**kin' arabians" and were it?? No, not as far as I know.
I was shocked, I'm sad and I mourning with you for all the dead.
Now let me say I'm pacifist. I refused "military duty time" and did instead "civil service"
Formative to this were my parents who grown up at a time bombs fell onto the cities they lifed in.
Also i think every killed human by 'e-chair' or by a bullet is one too much.
I don't understand those people who flue into the WTC neither I do understand people who call for revenge now, especialy for revenge onto the arabians (all or special ones).
Yeah, it's unfair, it's shocking, it's NOT right. Terrorismus agains civilians is always wrong, against military too but soldiers have to life with the idea to die by a bullet or something like that.
But to call now for revenge at a time were
Palaestinias are celebrating this. Yeah they do so... we (the western world) did as Kuwait was going to be liberated. I don't like the idea they celebrate the death of people. But if you look into a history books (good ones not only those made by "the winners", because the winners write the history how they need it) then you see Israel is no country that's based on something diffrent money and protection of bigger ones. E.g. Einstein
But the point is
And a country like USofA doesn't do anything against that except of talking but if there is oil (f.e. Kuwait) they are there in no time. This double blade makes terroismus grow.
When I do hear all those guys talk a lá "Nuke'em, nuke'em, nuke'em now!" a quote from 'Mars Attacks' I feel like in this film
Who said it was Ibn Laden (yeah it's 'Ibn' not 'Bin'; it's spoken 'e-bn' and means "son of" like the 'Mc' in McDonalds or the "O'" in O'Conner) well may be he was it, may be it was another Oklahoma City.
Where I life there is a sentence that 2 former rulers of the country had as their 'credo': "Make war outside to get peace inside." Ever came to your mind that you all (citizens of USofA) are just used? Just look why 1939 at around 05:00 h Poland was attacked.
I don't say it's this way I just say
Let time solve the puzzel and think before you talk and always don't do things to others you don't want to happen to you.
Ciao
Darknase
--- Ciao Darknase
I'm deeply sad and sorry for the current situation and I firmly believe that the persons resposible of this barbarie must be hunted and punished.
But then we have to think why so many people in some many countries feel unhappy about US foreign politics and this new global economy.
US punishes Cuba because they don't respect human rights, but partners China because they have nuclear weapons and because it is economicaly convinient.
Meanwhile US had supported dictators in Iraq, Chile, Argentina, South Corea and many other countries when they were pro-americans.
Do you remember the incidents during the last G8 metting in Genoa ? Industrialized nations are promoting the Global Economy. Corporations can build their products all over the world, they can sell their products all over the world, but where do the benefits of this global economy goes ? The gap between rich people and poor people is increasing. Unemployment is a big problem in many countries. External debt in poor countries get bigger and bigger.
If we live in a global economy, why don't we behave like a big nation ? Why don't we create a global income tax to improbe living conditions in poor regions. To build hospitals, shools, roads, etc. Why don't we implement a global unemployment insurance ? Why don't we open the borders of our countries so people can migrate like a big nation ?
I think the global economy is a big lie. It only helps corporations get bigger while most people get poorer.
If we do not face this problems, we will fighting the consecuenses instead of the cause.
MOD THE CHILD UP!
Any English language news sites corroborate this story?
Here's the translation..
----------------
Black box found
In the proximity of Pittsburgh the FBI found the Black box of the airplane fallen there. From the recordings the Ermittler of explanations about the events in the cockpit of the machine promises itself in the last minutes before the crash.
So far one has only out Handy callings of two passengers and a hostess notes over the processes on board three of the four machines briefly before crashes. The three persons reported of three to five kidnappers, who would have forced the force over the machines with meter-like weapons (see in addition also our article " the last callings ").
This is the part that I don't understand. Why was the manual in the car at all? You'd think the terrorists would be committed enough to have studied enough prior to leaving their house that they wouldn't need to take the manual with them. What could they have been looking up or reviewing on the drive to the airport??
I guess they were at least smart enough not to be reading it in the terminal!
Second to biological warfare, the threat of a hijacked plane seems to be one of the best methods for causing mass destruction in any city. There must be a way to negate this threat. One possible way would be to have all flight attendents equipped with a radio transmitter capable of sending an alarm to either the cockpit - where the alarm could be relayed to the ground - or directly to the ground. This way, any hijacked planes would immediately be known of and the appropriate action could be taken. If it came to shooting the plane out of the sky after not receiving a response then so be it. This action might quite possibly save a lot more lives than might be lost from that action alone - as has been proven.
gothamgazette.com, one of the better sites with NYC info, is starting a message board today for people to discuss the bombing. Check it out:
s io n
http://www.gothamgazette.com/twin_towers_discus
I know this is a bit off topic, and I can't substantiate it at all, but at one point during the news coverage yesterday, a reporter mentioned that the government will be using a "Black Hole" to capture thousands and thousands of phone conversations and will begin processing them, looking for information. Did anyone else hear/see this report? Is it an admission of Echelon?
Methinks Gordon Sinclair missed a little one there.
I also think that he conveniently ignored all the offers of help that weren't really needed due to the vast resources of the US.
What would have happend if 4 planes crashed into four nuclear power plants in four large cities. I know it wouldn't cause any sort of atomic explosion, but I would imagain the radiation would be pretty bad. Hard to clean up too!
Yeah, especially those guys that trained bin Laden, eh? You may have heard of them. They're the CIA.
And it's interesting that we find Afghanistan such a problem now. We didn't seem to feel that way when they were fighting the Soviet Union. Kipling and the Russians can tell you about barbarism in Afghanistan, it's not a new problem.
There are plenty of examples. Remember Noriega and Pinochet?
There is no excuse for what happened yesterday, none at all. No matter how oppressed you are, no matter how badly you've been hurt, killing civilians will not make you safer or hurt less. This is the very lesson we need to send to terrorists, but they pay attention to what we do, not what we say.
I fully support an informed and measured response. That probably will inevitably involve some civilians whose only crime is being too poor to move out of their country. But damn, people, we would have a lot less trouble with monsters if we didn't shortsightedly create and fund them to protect our interest of the moment.
I must also admit that I was sickend by the response of many slashdotters and the lack of clear thinking that many of the posts have shown.
We (as a country) have been a little soft on these terrorist acts for too long. I think that we have given the "retaliate through civil means" (embargos, political pressure, removing aid and support for aid) approach a fair shot.
When you get sucker punched, you don't take it lying down. Or maybe most of you do and maybe that's the problem. Have you ever been picked on by someone who was bigger than you, or smaller than you but had greater numbers, when you were a kid? Did letting it go help at all? Did telling your parents or a teacher help at all? Maybe for the short term, a day or a week, but I'll bet the next chance that person or persons got, you just got it worse. You have to stand up for yourself, because in the real world no one is going to do it for you.
There is no reasoning with the lawless, souless and heartless. All they know is hate and they have shown they are willing to do the unthinkable. We've got to do what we can do, and that's hit them back so hard that they can't get up and hit us again.
But what about the innocents? This isn't person to person. I'm not saying I, as an individual, want to go kill the children of the people who did this. But this attack wasn't aimed at me, as an individual. It was aimed at America.
We have lots of suspects who are suspect becuase of actions they have taken in the past. We didn't do anything (effective) about it then and this is where it has gotten us. There are nations who are harboring these people. In some cases the leaders of these nations are responsible for aggressive actions themselves. This was one nation to another, not person to person and this needs to be delt with as such. Even if these terrorists try and blur the lines. If the nations that house these people don't handel the sitation themselves they are condoning the actions and by protecting ther perpetrators they are guilty of these actions themselves.
IMO these terrorists are seen by these contries as a successful, covert military. Explain to me how, if we took the uniforms of half of our troops and denounced their actions, but let them operate out of our country while they carried out terrorist activies in other countries, this would not be seen as an act of war, deserving of retaliation?
I thought the moment I heard that phrase that it was stupid. That kind of thinking would lead you to conclude that Dr. Mudd shot Abraham Lincoln.
--
E_NOSIG
Very good.. Go ahead and moderate down comment which disagree with the fascist, shirt-sigthed view of many of the ./ readers.
./
There are a LOT of interesting posts which where moderated down, and a LOT of idiotic posts moderated up.
This shows me the kind of people read
yadda yadda
CNN.com also cut out all advertising links. Good for them. It was much easier watching video without the obligatory commercials.
Shame on MSNBC though, they were running normal if nor greater amounts of ads then they usually do.
Civilians are civilians, and it does not matter where they live.
Once again I must ask "Who gives a Fuck?" Ten thosand people may have died yesterday and what do them bastards do? They dance in the streets. Fuck'em. Any chance they had for a homeland is fucking gone. And you know what I don't give a fuck.
I say this, a thousand of them for every one American. These fuckers want terror I say we give them terror. Kill as many of the bastards as we can as quickly as we can. When all of Afghanistan is nothing more than a smoking hole in the ground scattered with the burned and dead lets see who is dancing in the streets.
Maybe blasing one of those fucking sand pits to hell would show the rest of them bastards what terror really is.
Them bastards are calling for peace, lets give it to them. The peace of the grave.
Since then, I've never really taken airport security successfully. When they ask me to turn on my palm pilot I use the tricorder app and pretend to scan them with it. I guess it wouldn't be smart to do that any more!
Giuliani is an amazing mayor. Whether or not you agree with everything he does is not the issue. The point is that he is decisive, no-nonsense and gets things done. He is not a PR person, he is a decision maker. It is a shame that his term is ending soon (term limits), but but I know he will move up the political ladder and hopefully will become active in federal government where someone with passion and talent like his is sorely needed.
What are you talking about? I still cannot believe this has happened, it was surreal when I first heard of it and it still is this semi morphic concept in my head trying to imagine what the impact must have been. Everytime I was able to see a photo or watch a video it became more and more real. This helps me from forgetting. Until I am able to visit the site myself, these images will have to do.
MSNBC reporting, Ari Fleischer says the Pentagon attack was originally aimed at the White House.
- sigs are for wimps.
Does anyone think this was related in anyway? Last week everyone was grumbling about the raid. Maybe it WAS warranted.
Please point out the news sources that are focusing (negatively) on Canada's involvement. Again the CBC has, so write to your PM.
Anti-American rants notwithdstanding (such as the I am Canadian beer commercial), most Americans have a very favorable view of Canadians. While some may have lots of misconceptions and sterotypes most consider Canada as the friend next door.
Look, journalist ask stupid questions, thats their job. If you take that as personal insult then that too bad your way to too sensitive and need to grow some skin.
Seriously, someone really needs to look into this. Your analysis is excellent.
The purpose of this site is to distill useful links to reviewed information about disaster relief, how you can help, information about survivors and memorials to victims.
If you can't give blood, then give money. If you can't give money, then at least give a shit.
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
... the White House according to Ari Fleischer.
MSNBC news.
- sigs are for wimps.
WARNING: Above site has obnoxious pop unders that take over when you leave the site. Worse than some porn sites!!!
Perhaps someone should point this out to the FBI.
-- null
I've been keeping an archive of images and video from the recent attacks. It's available at http://www.sexdwarf.org/wtc and hopefully the mirror at http://www.decepticons.org/wtc is now synced.
[And no, sexdwarf.org is *not* a pr0n site.]
This just aired on FOX news here - Of special importance to the /. crowd. Check out the grayed out logo on top of the cab.
BTW its been over 30 hours since the attack and from my dorm at Rutgers I can still see the enormous grey haze when looking eastward.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21621.html
they mention a video of the plane crashing into the pentagon. I haven't seen this video. I can't find it anywhere on the net. Are they wrong or is it just being suppressed for some reason...
this page
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:UMjaQkVab38:
goes to this page
"http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:jROXIfaHOGQ
and contain these menus.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:4sEeLq-RWiU:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:FmV2KzkX_1E:
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I wonder if the backlash from these incidents will fall onto the backs of all terrorist groups in the world. Will Britain and Ireland use this an excuse to end diplomacy with the Real IRA? Will the UN back an assault on Iraq to remove Saddam? Bin Laden's days are surely numbered. I wonder if the soldier who actually kills/captures him will get to collect the $2,000,000 dollar bounty. On that same note, will the bounty be increased? This could be the tip of the iceberg for a potentially bloody decade.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
Jerry Pournelle posted this tonight on one of the SFF Net newsgroups; I
have no reason to think it isn't authentic.
Dear Jerry,
Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along with
permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It fills in the
details that I missed in my original conversation with him and attempted to
relate to you.
Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel free to
post it if you deem it appropriate.
Sincerely,
Art Russell
Major, US Army (Retired)
Message Follows:
Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal
one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93
this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called
my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police
what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened,
Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a
large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second
by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several
minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers
decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United
Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy
and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground
that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their
heinous mission.
Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in
this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old
child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father. May
we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and
Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save
many others.
Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our
family during this time of great sadness
All of my best,
Tom
Stupid Slashdotters.
Let me break it down for your infant digestion.
1) Fact. The Hi-jackers were *suicidal*. You need a MORAL obligation to do this. No mercenary
will die for you.
2) Fact. The Hi-jackers targeted sensitive economical and military positions.
3) Fact. The Hi-jackers KNEW they could not damage American military infrastructure by attacking
the Pentagon. That attack was merely symbolic.
4) Fact. The Hi-jackers DID NOT care about the consequences (they don't think their families
will be targeted.)
5) Fact. The Hi-jackers MUST benefit from this, in one way or the other.
6) Fact. The Hi-jackers NEED support in the target areas. They need backup in the airline
inductry.
***
Having said that. Let's see the consequences of this attack.
1) "temporarily" dropping stock prices.
2) Rising oil prices.
3) NEED for MORE national defense systems (weapons.)
4) Rising hatred for the arabs.
Do you see what I see? The Bush Admin, with Israel orchestrated this whole drama. It is a money
issue. Muslim fanatics must have caried out the attacks, but they were being LED by Israel.
As you might know, the whole Islamic militancy is created and fueled by israel.
Israel needs a cause for constant American support, so they toggle the buttons of the stupid
arabs. The Arabs lost the war long time ago. Jews are just puppeteering the mummies, and using
them as scare crows to keep america on its toes.
WAKE UP WHITE GUYS, you are eaten by Sons of Sam.
Why haven't any of the big news agencies reported that Bin Laden was recently appointed the Taliban military commandre in chief?
6 03 7
http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=21
Normal people like me certainly don't hijack airliners and use them for suicide missions. I can't speak for you, but I'm starting to think you aren't as normal as you believe.
Unfortunately this will never happen. When you are the only superpower left in the world, the little guys are going to blame you for everything.
The center of that problem is nations that house, train and promote terroism. Afghanistan is going to shortly learn that, as well as any nation that sides with them.
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
Recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by theAmericans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon - not once, but several times -
and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at .
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
This is interesting..
Would you be willing to give up some of the liberties we have in this country in order for the government to crack down on terrorism, or not?
The results may surprise you. Remember the (FDR?)quote -- "Those who give up a liberty for convenience deserve neither"? (not accurate, but too tired to look it up)
did anybody of you notice that adding the numbers in the date of yesterdays attack summs up to 23? and that the number of letters in "new york world trade center" is 23? and that the psalm bush cited yesterday was psalm 23? its all part of the conspiracy;)
Religious Intolerance ? To what end ? See my comments from yesterday.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
ABC News just reported that the Pentagon was not the origional target for the airliner. The White House was the target, as was Air Force One. I really don't understand how they thought a 767 jumbo jet could take out a 747 with a military escourt...
Check out my sysadmin blog!
Fact: The arabs are at war with the jews.
Fact: The US sends huge amounts of aid to the jews.
Fact: The jews are winning because of this aid.
Fact: This makes the arabs VERY angry with the US.
I understand why the arabs feel the US is an enemy who should be attacked.
I understand that taking sides in a war will eventually incurr the wrath of the side you are hurting.
You should be able to understand it too, because they feel EXACTLY the same about that as you do about the terrorist attack that happened yesterday.
The fact that I can wrap by brain around the situation has no bearing on my bravery. I'm all for sending in M1's to drive over the skulls of anyone who dare attack the US. I just realize that it's US policy that provoked this situation.
Do not let yourself be manipulated. Not by the media, not by the government, and not be these terrorists.
The only thing worth surrendering is your ignorance.
actually, I have to disagree. Their coverage wasn't that much better, although you were atleast able to sometimes get a page. the BBC had by far the best coverage... my office was even streaming live coverage from them through Real Media Player from 9:00 until 10:30.
I agree with the Akamai comment tho.
- 1609, Henry Hudson discovers Manhattan island.
- 1922, Britain is granted mandate of Palestine.
- 1990, In a statement to the Congress, President Bush promises retaliation of Iraq's invation in Kuwait.
Other close matches:- Sep. 9, 1993. Yassir Arafat agrees on the "Declaration of Principle", i.e., the Oslo-agreement. A signing ceremony is hosted by President Bill Clinton on Sep. 13.
- Sep. 12, 2001. Two bin Laden supportered terrorists (the Tanzania US embassy bombing) were supposed to be convicted by a judge in a federal court just beside World Trade Center.
Also have a look on these sites for more September 11 info.I don't remember any Americans dancing in the street when we bombed the Chinese embasy, or shot down the Iranian airliner. The only time I've ever seen Americans dancing in the streets is when our troops come home. I know some people are pretty screwed up but there is no fucking way we would be celebrating 10k+ dead people.
And before anyone brings it up. 114,000 people died (immediately) in Hiroshima and no Americans danced in the streets. The debate as to if this saved more lives than it took is not my point although the death toll for Operation Olympic would have been millions. We only celebrated when the soldiers came home.
another thing ....
Anybody working near a plane, who has the ability to come in and out of plane should be subject to the highest levels of security and background checks and be considered candidates for the highest levels of security clearance, people fit to work at the pentagon. Planes should from now-on be considered as some of the most DEADLY weapons and anything surrounding them should be subject to massive paranoia.
It's simple. You can work on a plane or near a plane, you can work at the pentagon. Law enforcement agencies have your whole life on-file.
ok I agree it's a little extreme but maybe something along those lines could be set-up.
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
In the aftermath of these attacks, a lot of scary things are happening. People are suggesting that we nuke the entire middle-east, or at least go violently destroy anyone even suspected of any involvement. The FBI wants all ISPs to install Carnivore. The govenment wants more illegal wiretapping.
9 5 which calls for "justice, not revenge".
If any of these are as scary to you as they are to me, I encourage you to sign the petition at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/2246224
Ben Franklin said: "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
The text of the petition is copied below:
====
In the aftermath of the ruthless attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, we implore the leaders of the United States to ensure that justice be served by protecting the innocent citizens of all nations.
We demand that the President maintain the civil liberties of all U.S. residents, protect the human rights of all people at home and abroad, and guarantee that this attempted attack on the principles and freedoms of the United States will not succeed.
We plead for a thorough investigation of the terrorist events before any retaliation.
We call for PEACE and JUSTICE, not revenge.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
While there have been plenty of people suggesting that the plane may have been headed toward camp david, I would guess that none of them have ever been there. Camp David consists of a half dozen or so log cabins in a wooded compound inside the Catoctin Mountain National Park. At this time of year Camp David is practically invisible from it's own driveway, much less the air.
Not to discount the symbolic value of Camp David as a target, the attacker's goals seem to have been mass destruction and loss of life. Crashing a plane into a remote mountaintop in central Maryland would accomplish neither of these.
what assmonger marked this at -1 redundant??
Hi there. I'm sure many peple won't read this because it was posted so late in this discussion, but I thought you might like a quick word from some of the ER's I've been in today down here. (Columbia, NYU, and Vincent's). Tragically, everyone is really just standing around waiting for live people to come in, and there seems to be a general lack of this. Every now and then a fire fighter comes in, but is generally stable at this stage - likely incidental damage.
Yesterday, one of the firemen was brought in - in his mid fourties, I would suppose. He had a brother and 3 sons who were all firefighters; one of the latter was not accounted for all day yesterday. He himself had gotten caught in the first collapse, had gotten out and went in the second building and was then caught in that collapse and received some blows of debris into his back, for which he was being treated. It's that kind of bravery from the very salt of the earth which makes me so proud to be an American. God bless to all.
K
cause it sure scares me. If we use nukes- even 'tactical' nuclear weapons- then it's over. WWIII.
Who invented the term 'tactical' nuclear weapon anyway? Someone in need of a big dose of reality.
quote and source follow:
"THE SCALE of the attacks and the loss of life - mostly in New York City's
World Trade Center, but also near Pittsburgh and Washington - ensured that
"no option has been taken off the table," a senior U.S. official told
MSNBC.com. Asked if that included nuclear weapons, one senior official said:
"I said no option is out of the question. That's precisely what I mean.""
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627086_asp.htm
jim
How many innocent Afghanis are there?
Kill them all, if that's what it takes. Their stated intent is to kill all americans, and as long as there is one true believer left alive, that is what they will try to do.
This is not about guilt or innocence, nor is it about abating terror. It's about behavior modification.
This is about demonstrating to those who have stated that "every American is a legitimate target" in the "Holy War" for Allah that, since they have made it their lifes work (their ticket to Paradise, in fact) to kill Americans, then their lives, their countries, and their loved ones aren't worth spit.
Nuke Afghanistan and Iraq into piles of radioactive sludge. Let it be an example to the world of the price of American lives. It's really very simple. Call it "behavior modification" or "self defense" or whatever. It boils down to: "You kill us, we kill you back ... only we are better at it."
They are the stupid fucks who wanted war with us. Let them have it. I'm tired of making (and listening to) excuses for them.
"The Internet is made of cats."
Wasn't it possible to rescue people from the rooves of the burning WTO buildings using helicopters?
Was UA flight 93 shot down over Somerset County PA? (Even if the F16s were not air bourn at the time, what about a SAM?) Would the USAF admit doing it if they did? (This Economist article suggests doing so would have been illegal.)
...aircraft to fly. They're one of few aircraft you can be cross-certified on. Basically, if you're certified on the 757, you can fly a 767 without any issues. Perhaps this is why they chose these particular airlines/aircraft?
:(
Either way, it's a horrible thing to have happen.
your comment, in parantheses was this:
The comment implies that the designer who did "sign off on it" had no idea what he was doing, because a plane did happen to crash into the tower and it did collapse. If I were to read your comment without reading the link, I would've thought that the designer, contractor, whoever, was either ignorant, or negligent. Neither of which was the case.
It was a side-note which implied incorrect information, which is why I felt the need to correct you, or the implication of your statement, as the case may be.
Maybe you should try to be less anxious to jump to the conclusion that everyone is a pedantic twity asshole without which slashdot would cease to exist.
garc
$765K thus far. I kicked in my $50. I bet /.ers and others could get it up to a million bux by the end of today, at this rate!
sulli
RTFJ.
But for most of us, for most of what we do, this changes nothing. I wasted an inordinate amount of time following the lack of closure of the US presidential election, and for what? I should have sold all my stocks instead. Or fixed some bugs.
Go back to work. Keep society functioning. Except for very few of you, tracking down terrorists is someone else's job.
http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/
The page also has links to other similar sites.
NBC news has just reported that the Administration has credible evidence that both the White House and Air Force One were targeted. The plane that hit the Pentagon first flew over the Pentagon and along the mall towards the White House, then mysteriously circled back and crashed into the Pentagon. Air Force One flew a zig-zag route from Florida towards Barksdale AFB.
Error:
Available at www.sexdwarf.org/wtc/. And no, this is not a porn site.
I just got this e-mail from a friend and I thought it was good to share (note: I am not a Canadian):
:)
A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times
and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those."
Stand proud, America!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
read regarding the United States. It is nice that
one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the
world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything and never even get a thank you for the
things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to
as many people as you can and emphasize that they
should send it to as many of their friends until this
letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a
single American that has read this.
I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
Another e-mail with a message (cartoon) to the attacker(s).
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
This was E-mailed to me by a friend. I thought I'd share. It definately made me look at things a bit differently.
This loss of American life on American soil is unprecedented. This is easily the single largest act of terrorism in modern history. It is certainly the worst that this generation has seen. It is wanton, unnecessary slaughter on a grand scale, perpetrated by faceless cowards too craven to attack us head on. Instead they murder innocents and celebrate their deaths in the streets. These men- and believe me I use the term loosely- believe it is their divine right and responsibility to kill us.
The true scale of the killing has yet to be fully uncovered. It falls on us, the survivors, to pray and wonder. It is certain that too many people died. Hundreds on the planes alone. Men, women and children on the way to vacations, business trips and their homes. Innocent citizens whose only crime was flying on the flights targetted by the terrorists for hijacking.
This is a sad moment for this country, which despite it's problems and faults has long stood as a bastion of freedom and light in an increasingly darkening world. It can, however, also be a proud moment. A moment when we all put aside our differences, our hatreds, our partisanship and our innocence. A moment when we can rise as a single voice and proclaim loudly and with unity that we will not be defeated. That this act of cowards and fools will not go unavenged. We will not justify their attacks by descending into anarchy. We will not go quietly like sheep to our own deaths. We will fight, with all the significant power at our disposal, we will fight the perpetrators of this butchering to our final breaths. We are- for the moment- all united by the singular fact that we are all Americans. Those responsible for murdering our brothers, wives and sons will never again know peace. We will hound them to the ends of this earth and see to it that they are destroyed.
Those in the World Trade Center. Those below it. Those in the pentagon and those on the planes forfeited much yesterday. They forfeited their lives. Those behind this obvious act of war have forfeited their's as well. Their right to live is now voided. They are no better than animals, to be hunted down and culled from the human race with not a single person left behind to mourn their passing. In Palestine and other places, they are celebrating in the streets. Celebrating the death of our family and friends. These people must be sent a message, a message that everyone in the world will understand. Those who attack us, those who murder innocents, and those who harbor these men within their countries will not be permitted to stand. Too long has this country languished, allowing this behavior to go on unhindered and unchecked.
Most of the blame here lies solely on the shoulders of the terrorists, but it would be remiss to not amend some of it to the government of this country. This is a crime of their own complacency. They burn our flag in the streets, they kill our tourists and bomb our embassies, and yet thus far we have done nothing. We sit and preach peace and diplomacy, trying to make treaties and accords where we should make war.
This incident, however, is the prodigal straw that broke the camel's back. No longer will we laxly allow these crimes to go on. The people demand it, their voices raised in anger and protest, and the politicians cannot ignore us when we speak with one voice. Black, White. Republican, Democrat. Such designations are unimportant when faced with an enemy such as the one we face now. We must deliver a message to anyone who knowingly aids this behavior:
America will not fall. Our strength and pride are too great. You seek to weaken us with terror, but you have failed, you will always fail. We have our differences, the nature of our country makes it almost obligatory, but those differences are nothing now. You have given us a common enemy, you have opened the eyes of the people. You have woken the greatest giant in the world and we will not rest until your blood mingles with that which you have spilled.
And that, readers, is why times like this make me proud to be an American. I gripe as much as anyone at the red tape, the politicians and their stupid posturings, at the government and at the president. But at times like this, I, like everyone must, can forget all that. There will be time tomorrow to complain about George Bush, or Bill Clinton, or your local senator. Plenty of time tomorrow, but not today.
This is undeniably a horrible tragedy, an unjustified massacre perpetrated by cowards too afraid to claim responsibility for their acts. It is a dark day in this country, and even now as the fires burn down in Manhattan, we can survey the reasons why. But it is also a new dawn, a chance to show everyone else in the world what this country is made of and why it's the best damn country there is.
Salute. As always, my thoughts go out to everyone touched by this horror, and to the heroes who even now are risking their lives to save the lives of others. Best of luck to you all.
The FBI and CIA are all over them like a cheap suit. This is probably going to be one of their easier investigations as the clues come pouring in. Plus, they probably have a lot of overseas cooperation going on, too.
All I know is that within 24 hours, the FBI has done an amazing amount of research and have already made initial arrests. I've never been happier to pay my taxes.
I, like many others have also set up a mirror of news articals. I also have tar.gz files of a bunch of pictures.
http://24.36.34.43/wtcattack/index.html
I would also like to put a video of the first plane crash up. The only one I could find was on cnn and it is streaming and I couldn't save it. So if you know where I can find the video, please reply.
I've heard/read some reports that the plane that blew into the Pentagon was originally after the White House.
If that's true, any idea of the sudden change in plans ? The only thing I can figure (having lived in NYC and now DC), is that the Whitehouse isn't all that easy to spot from the sky when travelling at a high rate of speed. Not being a pilot, I don't know. Or perhaps the terrorist, not being from here, confused the Pentagon with the White House (unlikely, but just a random thought ?-)
Speculations ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Please note that the Amazon donation is capped at $50 (although I presume you could donate more than once). Also, I didn't see any mention of the donation being tax-deductible. Crass, I know, but for some people it's important.
The Paypal donation link is unlimited, and Yahoo had a link to a Red Cross donation as well. Sorry, I don't have the link.
You may also donation directly at http://www.redcross.org although their site seems to be getting pretty slammed.
The reconstruction of the building in philly was delayed by politics, not by the difficulty of the task. The building was nowhere near the size or did it have the complexity of the wtd structures
I'm kinda afraid that Bush will use this to push through the ABM system instead of following the path of disarmament. On CBS last night they were talking about how Russia is going to let up slack on this issue. I dunno, just kinda scary that this situtation will be used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. I hope everyone stays theirs hands and keeps a clear mind.
Sure to be controversial, but Micheal Moore has a very interesting message about the attacks. He mentions that the person whose name has been mentioned the most in connection to these attacks, Osama bin Laden was trained by the CIA.
Laid off by a dot-com? There's a place for you in the military. All the services are recruiting actively right now. And they need smart people.
As far as I know bin laden is the number one suspect here. I was wondering then if it is proven that he master minded this attack, then could this be considered to be a hate crime? As far as I understand he detests the US because it's not the Islamic based goverenment he envisions. What are people's thoughts on calling this a hate crime? I'm just wondering.
Not to take away from the suffering, but I am still having a field day with this one. A month ago or less Ron Dickhead was telling us all about a national crisis with a frikkin computer worm, and now a real disaster happens and all the little boys in DC playing with their tin soldiers are caught with their pants down.
And given the proclivity of the US to estrange almost everyone on this planet with its unique Mickey Mouse blend of culture and politics, the attack is hardly unexpected. What is unexpected is that this massive Manhattan landmark, so crucial to both the prestige and the financial well-being of the United States, be totally unguarded from attack - no radar, no warning system, no nothing, and that worse, the Pentagon, haven and home base of every bigot worth his Ivy League blazer on the planet, is equally defenseless. Some people really have their cone-shaped heads up their arses, and no, no one is reveling in the casualties, but yes, many people are still finding it hard not to chuckle at the US proving once again that they do not belong in the same parlour room as the other grownups, who are all silently wishing someone would put the nasty brat to bed.
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Exception occurred.
/default.asp, line 133
More of that innovative MS technology at work.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
I think you have some good ideas (especially recording sounds from the cabin as well as the cockpit if the plane is put in emergency mode - in fact, technology exists today where video could be used too, especially in the cockpit).
Unfortunately, isolating the cockpit in this way is something that is a) probably impossible or cost prohibitive to retrofit into existing planes and b) probably prohibitive from a design standpoint to add to new planes (and even if not, today's planes will be flying for years).
I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that at least some airlines can land on autopilot at airports with the correct types of radio beacons on the runway. If a pilot puts a plane into 'emergency' mode, the plane would head immediately to the nearest designated emergency airport along its route and land. Manual control inputs would be locked out. In this scenario, a plane could be taken over by terrorists who could initiate a hostage situation, but they could no longer control the plane's destination.
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
First of all, the terrorists apparently claimed that they had a bomb. It seems incredibly foolish to rush terrorists in this situation, unless you know that they intend to ram the plane. And nobody knew this.
Secondly, these planes were half-full. It was early in the morning. From hijacking to crash, less than 30 minutes elapsed. Even a large group of non-sleepy travelers would probably assume that hijackers have demands, then take time to steel themselves for a suicidal rush. These people never had time.
Apparently, the passengers on the PA plane did overcome the attackers (although this isn't certain), after realizing that these people intended to kill everybody. They did it, and the plane crashed. These people are heroic-- don't dishonor anybody's memory by making it their fault.
Finally, I guarantee that this will sort of thing will never happen again as long as there is a reasonable number of passengers on the plane. If there are further knife hijackings (even gun hijackings), Americans will assume that the alternative to resistance is death. Armed with the knowledge we have now, I can't imagine any reasonably large group of passengers succumbing. This act that has taken airplane hijacking to a whole new level may well spell an end to the days of hostage-taking style hijacking. From this day forward, no terrorists can count on terror as a weapon to assure passenger cooperation. I hope.
Many times country's come to us and ask us to help. We generally just don't in shooting we are asked or rather "EXPECTED" to come in and help.
Then many times the blame us afterwards because we are there.
Email your legislators as well. That's what I plan to do. You've got a better chance of audience with them, and they're the ones who actually draft the laws.
Here are three other good "letters" I've found. I like yours as well.
If you're worried about encroachments on your freedom, you should be voting Constitution or Libertarian.
Constitutionally Correct
It is doubtful that a Stinger (or any shoulder-fired ordance) would be effective against such a large plane. Identification of the target could only have occurred within a few miles of the towers. If the plane were already aimed, the loss of one engine would have done little to modify its course. And a Stinger will not "blow a plane out of the sky," especially not a plane the size of a 757. And, as you mentioned...had it been shot down while it was already over Manhattan, it would have hit *something* important.
Harry Brown is preaching isolationism and appeasement, the very same policy which resulted in WWII and, had it continued, would have allowed the Nazis to win the nuclear race, and thus, the entire war.
The US involves itself in international affairs to protect the "interest of the free world". We don't live in a closet. Just because attrocities occur in different parts of the world, does not mean that it won't eventually endanger us and those who share our philosophies.
If anything, yesterday's events may never have happened if we had finished off Sadam when we had the chance. For now, it's too early to tell if he's responsible.
This has to be a troll... there's no way there are truly people this fucking stupid in the world.
When the US backs the nations that the terrorists favor, then nothing happens to the US. Isn't that right? When we propped up the governments in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq... no problem. Our crime, in their eyes, is that we aren't giving them the financial and political support they think they deserve, and because we are no longer backing them, well, then... we must be their enemy.
And don't throw me the argument of "Americans are supporting the Israelis". Remember Desert Storm, a few years back? Where the US came in and kicked the crud out of Saddam? Partly it was for oil, yeah; but a big part of it was because the other nations in the Middle East were scared shitless of Iraq. We were honored allies as long as he was a threat, and as soon as we took care of that threat, we went right back to being the Great Satan.
So ask youself: which nations in the Middle East has shown the willingness to maintain friendly relations with the US, regardless of the political situation? The only one that springs to mind, really is Israel - the only nation that we have consistently supported over the years. Is it any surprise that we, as a nation, have decided that we've had enough of being pushed around by idiots who think that backstabbing a former ally is just business as usual?
I honestly, truly hope that the people of the Middle East understand that this has pretty much killed off any possibility of our treating any Middle Eastern nation as an equal. We tried; we gave them chance after chance to demonstrate some shred of human decency and ability to co-exist peacefully with other nations. They blew it big time, and we're done extending our hand in peace. I think, from now on, we'll see a single facet to our relations with the Middle East: telling them what to do in order for us to leave them alone.
And what kind of deep emotional trauma did Osama Bin Laden go through, with his millions of dollars from daddy's fortune? Before the state of Israel, the arabs ['palestinians'] would riot every few weeks to months and kill Jewish civilians.
This was way before your made-for-tv story about humiliating checkpoints, etc. Learn some history. You watch a little CNN and think you understand things there- the Palestinians have always been hostile- only now you feel sorry from their media campaign. Who the hell was oppressing them in the 1929 riots? and before?
My family lived as Jews in the middle east for centuries- and saw how oppressive Islam has been. Do you know what a 'dhimm' is? Do you know anything about the moslem treatment of Copts? or Druse? or Islam's beliefs towards women, other religions, other thought? Their views on art and freedom of the press?
Understand what the enemy to western values is: radical islam. Don't whine about the US or Israel.
One reason other cultures hate us is that we are a bully. We are willing to bomb other countries on the flimsiest of pretexts. When it turns out we've made a mistake, we rarely admit error but instead search around for excuses to justify our policy or ignore it and hope the problem goes away.
Key case in point: Clinton's bombing of a Sudanese pharmeceutical factory in 1998. We initially claimed it was connected to Osama bin Laden and used to fabricate nerve gas, but there doesn't seem to have been any evidence to support that theory. So the upshot is that we bombed another country with which we were not at war, destroying an important part of their infrastructure. We did not apologize or try to mitigate the damage done in any way.
If any other country did that, we'd call that a terrorist act.
We have blood on our hands. We have often trained terrorists, supported repressive regimes, killed civilians, and bombed civilian targets. The Arab world notices such things and doesn't give us credit for having good intentions. That's why we are hated. If we want to stop being hated, we need to stop stationing troops in countries around the world and doling out "foreign aid" to countries around the world. "Free trade with all nations, entangling alliances with none," a wise man once said. A defense policy that focused merely on defending Americans in America would make us a whole lot safer.
To put it another way: there's a reason that nobody ever rhetorically calls Switzerland "the Great White Satan."
I play Nerd-Folk!
Frankly, by that time in the morning, on that day, shooting down the plane is the obvious thing to do if you know its hijacked.
I wouldn't even call the person who made the call a Hero. You have every reason to believe the worst will happen if you don't shoot it down.
I think the military would admit to it, if they had done so. Certainly, the FBI and FAA would find out eventually.
Ahem! Finally someone who knows how to deal with people like this.
I piss upon Mohammed and I spit upon the Koran.
Don't forget, Aimster still works. I see a lot of WTC stuff on there and recommend it instead of these mirrors....
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Amen dude. Couldn't agree more. In fact I think they should build them twice as large!
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
"In order to have the desired effect the hostile nation must feel the pain deeply"
Great, for anybody who wishes to understand the terrorist mindset, look no further.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binl aden/interviews/al-fagih.html#alqaeda
Very interesting interview about someone familiar with Bin Laden and his followers.
At the very bottom of the page, it asks "Secondly, does the average American worker in an office in New York or Washington have reason to fear?"
Scary stuff! 2 years ago someone feared for the exact 2 cities that were hit!
aren't there any REAL (large jet) pilots on /. that could tell us how hard/easy this would be?
I'm tired of listening to these posers ramble on about something they know nothing about.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
There is a DivX video of the first plane crash on KaZaA. The AVI is titled "CNN exclusive WTC crash 1 and 2".
When so many news sites were going down yesterday we set up an aggregated news feed on the US attacks at our site. It's the top item on the main page.
PLEASE DONATE BLOOD! There is a continent-wide blood drive on. New York hospitals are critically low on blood supplies and many of the wounded are being transported to Canadian hospitals Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa to make space for the expected flood of critical patients in New York.
You can contact the US Red Cross or Canadian Blood Services to set up an appointment.
"We need to do more with respect to tracking people within a society that is an open society. "
= 48 68
Available:
www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2001/index.cfm?docid
If the U.S. wants justice the answer is to support international organizations like the international court. Give them the mandate and the resources to pursue international criminals.
Why are you considering this a criminal action instead of the military attack that it effectively was?
We're not talking about a small group of criminals. We're talking about a large terrorist organization that killed 10,000 civilians and tried to destroy the Pentagon. That's a military action, and it requires a military response.
We didn't send police to Japan after Pearl Harbor, and we shouldn't send police to Afghanistan now. We should send in the army, bomb bin Laden's camps to the ground, and invade Afghanistan if they try to protect him.
This isn't about criminal justice. It's not about proving we have balls. It's not about retaliation. It's about responding appropriately to a military threat.
Slash has nothing to do with Slashdot.
I guess this is kind of a flame. I'm pissed off. If you want to roast me alive for it, go ahead.
I think that after some consideration, I've decided that Europeans have absolutely no place to comment on this matter at all.
My reasoning goes like this: The environment in Europe has become so safe, warm and cuddly that their perspectives have been skewed. European governments will do anything to save you from your own folly, making European life quite emulate grammar school. In some ways this is a credit; the absence of violence and violent media has made Europe a very cozy place, regardless of how Europeans revolt against this trend. However, it also means that Europeans have no understanding of what it means to live in a world where your entire existence is up to you and no one else; where there is no safety net to catch you, should you suddenly and foolishly let go of the trapeze; where if problems occur, you have to solve them yourself. Europeans are resigned to live in a world where the government is this ancient, impenetrable structure that is best left to the politicians, whilst the people go about living their carefree bohemian lifestyles, crying helplessly at the disasters inflicted upon them.
The society inherent in European life tends to make neoliberal coffeehouse invertibrates out of what would normally be a perfectly able and confident adult. When you see the movie/read the book "Fight Club," and you hear the narrator refer to wanting to kill and eat those pandas that refuse to fuck for the preservation of their species, that is honestly sometimes what we think of you. Basically, we're the parents, and you are the kids at college. You've got the time and luxury to sit around having philosophical discussions, but we're working, paying the bills, and doing the chores, and we expect you to be at least slightly grateful.
Americans are hardcore, so are Afghanis. We both know what it's like to have to scrape for a living and avoid getting killed. We may hate each other, but at least we understand one another. What we don't understand is you.
And even when you flame me for saying this, that's exactly how it's going to sound...like some ungrateful 20-something who's a little too wound up in his own world to appreciate the sacrifices his parents make to keep him cozy, lazy, and full of the world's exotic coffees.
In honor of all you shallow motherfuckers, I'm going to call my parents and tell them how much I appreciate their hard work.
"Upgrade your grey matter, 'cause one day it may matter." --Deltron Zero
Has anyone thought of the possible connection to the mysterious crash of Egyptian Air 990 in Nov of 1999? That plane was also a 767. No evidence of mechanical failure was found. The US investigators believed that the copilot may have drove the plane into the Atlantic in an act of suicide, but the Egyptians disagreed. Could there be any connection?
Please. Civillians have been targets in every significant conflict in history. This, like most other pitched conflicts, has very little to do with right or wrong but more to do with what side you are on.
If you are a supporter of Islamic fundamentalist regimes and militias, I don't care if you spend your days feeding the poor and teaching children to read - you have thrown your lot in with those who are opposed to my values and the safety of my family and you are a suitable target for whatever insideous weapon we should chose to toss at you.
Islamic fundamentalists say:
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life to slay his enemies.
Christ said this:
"Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
Uh.. ok. Jihad comes from the Arabic word jahada, "to struggle". In the Islamic context, it can mean anything from the quest to improve oneself and become a better person, to taking up arms in the fight against evil. Incidentally.. one of the forms of Jihad is the rejection and despising of evil; in that sense, every Muslim conducts their own personal jihad through their life, and the hating of an atrocity of this kind would thus be compulsory, given this logic. The fact that some people choose to concentrate on the more martial aspects of jihad, as interpreted by some radicals and NOBODY ELSE in the Muslim world.. only tells us that people are far too used to thinking in terms of what we're told on TV.
The truth is out there, folks, but it's not going to be on a TV screen. Not if we count on the TV to digest events for us.
From now on, if a pilot thinks that someone is going to take over his plane, he/she should dump fuel right away. At least you can deadstick land at a nearby airport and not be a flying bomb.
... This "editorial" comes from a 1973 broadcast by Gordon Sinclair. Sinclair died in 1984.
u ni que/american.html
http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rta/ccf/news/
and they will figure out a way to defeat every single one of these.
all your base are belong to us
W3 W1LL 0WN j00!
he makes some good points.
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth -- that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When we will learn that wec an't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada.
And on and on it goes. Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment -- that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American Presidents who order bombings of innocent people -- while the
Presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place. When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?
What to Do What _should_ be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with _enforceable_ constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is
unpatriotic and un-American -- that this isn ot a time to question our country or ourl eaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
The passengers were told there was a bomb on the plane or something.
-------------------------------------
Technically, we are beyond survival.
DPA and 2 news sites here in the Netherlands are reporting that the Black Box has been found of the Pittsburg crash. Can't find anything on CNN though.
Link (in Dutch) here
You are naive to think anything less than wiping terrorists out completely will solve this problem.
Unfortunately, the assumption that killing anyone, including terrorists, is the true naivety. Terrorism is the symptom. The disease is the desperation that much of the world endures while being steamrolled under our economic imperialism (what you call 'economic expansion'). The cure, is to reach out and re-build our reputation as protectors of liberty rather than protectors of our own god-given right to gorge ourselves on junk food while the rest of the world starves.
Montreal fsckng RULES in my book. Beer, cigarets and SCADS OF GORGEOUS WOMEN! ; ) I also just saw the Cirque de Soleil, and it has completely re-defined my outlook on Entertainment.
When my body dies, my soul will go to Montreal.
**>>BELCH
http://killer.gaschamber.net/~tsk/wtc/ has some stuff.
How nice that all the trolls have come out to play...
Civillians have been targets in every significant conflict in history. This, like most other pitched conflicts, has very little to do with right or wrong but more to do with what side you are on.
And this justifies attacks on civilian targets how?
If you are a supporter of Islamic fundamentalist regimes and militias, I don't care if you spend your days feeding the poor and teaching children to read - you have thrown your lot in with those who are opposed to my values and the safety of my family and you are a suitable target for whatever insideous weapon we should chose to toss at you.
Exactly what values would those be then?
If you stop and consider the situation for a moment, there is very little difference between the actions you are suggesting, and the actions of the terrorists who attacked the WTC, which I believe was my point in the first place...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
But many third-world countries are now struggling under american-imposed economic "measures" that only insures that the country's assets are bought at bargain-basement firesale prices by american croporations who then move on to milk those countries' wealth.
Because the french know very well that if they let the yankees run them, it will drive them into abject submission. They haven't forgotten Roosevelt's AMGOT plans of 10 years earlier, where France was to be stripped of her industrial capability, in order to render her dependant on american industry for it's staples.
Who cares about trailer parks?
The marshall plan was repaid many times when whole industries were greatly harmed by american protectionism.
The US aircraft industry was able to offer cheaper planes because it was heavily subsidized by general Curtiss Lemay's warmongering warplane buildup. And american salesmen are very good at bribing officials, too.
And how were the americans able to go to the moon? By using slave labour plucked from Germany's war industry. The americans by themselves would never be able to do that technological prowess, they are unable to school enough good engineers, but instead, they import their scientists from abroad. Young americans are only interested with money, so instead of becoming engineers and scientists, they become lawyers.
I wonder what weed that guy has been smoking, because it seems to be mightily good!
The Pennsylvania Railroad and the New-York Central railroad have been dead for 34 years; they have been merged into the Penn Centrail railroad, whose subsequent bankrupcy (the biggest bankrupcy ever in the whole universe) rocked the industrial establishment to it's foundation. All thanks to the automobile industry who, at great public expense, had hammered at a fully paid for transportation infrastructure, and replacing it with one that killed more people than all the wars ever did since the birth of mankind.
Here is a canadian with a pretty browned-up tongue!!!
I have a mirror of all media that I can get my hands on. It's at http://www.llamaporn.org. I'm on a T3 so bandwidth shouldn't be much of a problem.
nt
________________________________________________
SPOT satellite image of Manhattan, acquired on September 11 at 11:55 AM EST, 3 hours after two planes crashed into the World Trade Center. The colors result from the use of infrared bands to identify the actual fire hot spots (see red spots near the base of the smoke plume). The .tif and .jpg files were created with SPOT 20 meter resolution imagery. The SPOT satellites orbit at an altitude of 822 km.
http://www.spot.com/home/news/NYC-091101.jpg
http://www.spot.com/home/news/NYC-091101.tif
This copyrighted image may be used free of charge, with the appropriate copyright attribution, as follows:
(C)CNES/SPOT Image 2001
To my fellow Americans, I implore you to not give the terrorists responsible for this heinous attack the ultimate satisfaction of making you live your life in fear. Instead, pick up the pieces and carry on. Go out an shop at the local mall. See the movie you had been planning to see. Go to school or work and do the best you can at your tasks. We cannot change the terrible things that have happened, but we can change how we react to the tragedy of Tuesday. Let us all stand together and show the terrorists of the world that the American spirit, much like the flag in our national anthem, will persevere through these atrocities. That we will be strong in the face of tragedy and continue to live our lives. That we will not be bullied into living in fear. That we are truly the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
Thank you,
M. Danforth
shwaine@malevolence.com
He attempted it before, and I belive civilians were killed that time, I'm perfectly OK with the idea that Iraq was behind it, (Hey, why should they like George Bush's son?) but this guy Osama Bin Ladan is training terrorists who's goal in life is to kill as many of us as possible.
More than likely though, Iraq, Afghanastan, Palistine and possibly others were involved.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Those who are tolerant of the intolerant are themselves intolerant. Only by being intolerant of the intolerant can we, ourselves, be tolerant.
The indian invented it. The idea travelled from east to western though the middle-east.
This is the historic thruth.
You know US have'nt ever existed, neither all the
other countries.
Just a thougt.
Nation and religion are evil, old ideas. Why do we keep them?
We were blindsided while concentrating on an unwinnable drug war. Drugsare now more prevalent and cheape rthan before the drug war. 30% of the people now realize and the rest soon will too. The government would be reluctant to dismantle the DEA because of the huge budget and number of employees.
Now is the time to transform the DEA into a domestic anti-terrorism organization. People doing drugs neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket and is a waste of resources. The resources of the DEA should be used to find and destroy future 9-11 attacks.
Cat Jesus
Has anyone noticed that the date of the original attack, 2/26/1993 and the date of the second attack 9/11/2001 both add to 2021?
-GiH
Got some video and pics. Here
Also feel free to send anything in...
I think you have some good ideas (especially recording sounds from the cabin as well as the cockpit if the plane is put in emergency mode - in fact, technology exists today where video could be used too, especially in the cockpit).
Agreed. I'm talking about building new planes. Completely re-thinking their design from the ground-up. And it's obviously not realistic, just like you, I vaguely understand the prohibitive costs. I just want something to be done, as you pointed out, a small subset of those ideas could more realistically be put in place on existing planes, but the key here is to put some *serious* thought about counter-terrorism systems and measures into the next generation of planes, and do whatever is possible to build them and roll them out to mainstream carriers as soon as possible.
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
Linburgh was a supporter of the nazis Though I'm sure that's just clouding the issue, right?
mafia does it all the time. wack someone who's been a pain in the ass. send a message to the guilty partys not to fuck with them.
I have used a GPS in an Airliner before just holding it up to my small window. If you are in the cockpit with all that glass around you I bet a reasonable handheld GPS would get you a fix and bearing to your pre-programed waypoint.
If you spend 2 hours to learn how to read the onboard nav system, know which way up to hold a map and how to measure an angle you would not be too far off either, Once you are within 20 nm of the twin towers pointing something like at them I think the mk1 seat of pants would do.
Maybe you live in interesting times
thats right, knock that mofo down and put up an OCTAGON.
________________________________________________
The Khali-stan is between your nose and the back of your head isnt it ?
... have some pride man
Pakistan played you guys like a puppet and disowned you later on
Cos he's about to go on a "cruise" before the weekend.
No, the really skilled terrorists are the ones trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden is one of them. Maybe arming Moslem fanatics with the best weaponry and teaching them advanced espionage techniques to avoid detection by superpowers wasn't a good idea.
We made him, now it's time to recall him.
My wife and I talked about this, and here's what we think:
The cockpit should be separated from the cabin by bulletproof barrier, only un-lockable from within the cabin. If hijackers start killing passengers and crew, too bad. Regardless of how many are killed, the plane will not be turned into a weapon. Look at it this way. You can let the hijackers kill, say, 200 people, land, and have them shot by ground troops, or, have them blow up the plane, or, you can relinquish control to them, and allow what happened on tuesday, as-of-yet uncounted hundreds/thousands dead. In the first instance, yes, a lot of people die, except the pilots. In the second instance, a lot of people die, including the pilots. In the third instance, a LOT of people on the ground also die.
Why wouldn't we choose the first option?
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Not to mention that they have to be careful not to crush survivors. Usually, destruction takes less time than construction... but in this case, they are not destroying - it is a controlled removal of debris. It will take longer than the ESB
The company I am contracting for just lifted it's travel ban, and had this comment in the memo:
The air travel reservation system, called Sabre is not functioning anywhere in North America because of damage to the transponder that was located in the New York World Trade Center.
Odd that such a complicated system would have a single point of failure. Anyone have any further info on this?
Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
What's the difference? It seems to me it's entirely a matter of semantics. In the past (and largely in the present) whoever won the war got to call the other side "criminal". The point is to get away from that and create some sense of fairness in international justice.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
The following article was written by Rick Giombetti, from Seattle, WA. Posted with the author's permission.
Why The Surprise?:
"I Want To Be A Pilot So That One Day I Can Bomb Americans!"
Who saw it coming?
There is nothing more ridiculous than listening to people express "shock" and "surprise" at the multiple airplane hijackings and terror attacks on September 11. I'm surprised an attack against the U.S. of this magnitude hasn't happened sooner. One nation can only treat the world as a slave plantation and its peoples as slaves for so long, before the slaves finally rise up. There isn't a region of the world the U.S. hasn't pillaged and raped to some degree over the past 150 years. In a world with 6 billion people, there are always going to be a few who resort to individual and group terrorism to protest the policies of a global empire like the U.S.
Could there have been a better selection of targets to protest U.S. financial hegemony and military violence? First, it was Scam Central: The two 110-story World Trade Center towers, the most prominent symbols of U.S. multinational corporate capitalism. Then it was Violence Central: The Pentagon, home of the badly misnamed Department of "Defense." These attacks are being called "cowardly" by U.S. politicians and media pundits. Cowardly? Compared to the U.S. pilots who dropped bombs from over 15,000 ft. above Serbia for 78 days in 1999, safely out of the range of Serb gunners on the ground and against a nation with no air force to counter the U.S.? I don't think so.
"What balls," is all I have to say. These terror attackers risked being caught and possibly beaten and tortured while in custody. They sacrificed themselves in what may have been the boldest terror attacks in history. And who has ever turned airplanes into bombs for taking out office towers and government buildings? Yeah, it was a group of mean fuckers who did what they did on September 11, but they sure as hell weren't cowards.
Don't get me wrong. I despise individual and group terrorism not only because it causes loss of life. It also represents the ultimate rejection of mass struggle. Now the job of well-meaning U.S. activists just got a whole hell of a lot harder. We can expect some more Bill of Rights shredding legislation and more violent crackdowns on protest because of the terror attacks. We can also expect people to not want to hear peace activist's demands for an end to the destructive and violent policies of the U.S. all over the world. "Show some respect for the victims and victim's families," some people will tell us. If now isn't the time to demand an end to U.S.-backed violence around the world, then when will it be a good time to do so? With the U.S. government preparing(and most likely already carrying out) a fresh round of bombings around the world in retaliation for the terror attacks, now isn't the time to be quiet about U.S. violence against defenseless people. The eleven year U.S.-led war of bombs from the air and draconian sanctions via the U.N. against the people or Iraq is just one example of the kinds of policies we shouldn't back down from denouncing.
When I was still living Fort Collins, Colorado two years ago I attended a talk by the wonderful peace activist Kathy Kelly of Voices In The Wilderness(VITW). VITW has been campaigning against the bombing and U.S. imposed sanctions regime against the people of Iraq for about a decade now. VITW has courageously and openly defied U.S. government enforcement of the unjust U.N. sanctions by smuggling badly needed humanitarian aid into Iraq over the past decade. Kelly offered the small audience who came to see her speak that October evening a chilling anecdote about an Iraqi boy she met while making one of her many humanitarian tours of Iraq. The single digit aged boy described to a crowd at a gathering what he wanted to be when he grew up. He said, "I want to be a pilot so that one day I can bomb Americans!"
That anecdote has haunted me ever since and I knew it was only a matter of time before that angry Iraqi boy's apocalyptic wish would come true. It's a chilling sentiment but it's completely understandable. The only world that poor Iraqi boy and countless other children his age have ever known, if said boy is even alive today, is one of U.S. bombings and sanction's imposed misery. Yet this pre-adolescent boy is(was?) sophisticated enough to figure out that it's the U.S. government that is ordering the bombings and imposing the devastating sanctions against his country, not Saddam Husein. Perhaps it's time for the majority of the U.S. adult population to match this Iraqi boy's sophistication and start demanding that their government end the bombings and the sanctions regime.
The combination of bombings and sanctions has led to a death toll in Iraq over the past decade that easily tops 1 million. I haven't seen much, if any, concern in the mass media about this horrible U.S. caused suffering in Iraq. This is the same mass media that treated the intense six week bombing campaign against Iraq at the beginning of 1991 like it was a video game where no Iraqis were being injured or killed(talk about disrespecting the victims of massive military violence!). The bombings have never stopped. Yet about the only time the media covers new bombings is when the president is looking for a boost in his poll numbers and holds a press conference after the fresh round of bombing begins.
The sanctions aren't even a topic of debate in the mass media. Try to find some commentary anywhere about Thomas Nagy's September Progressive article, which demonstrates how the U.S. government intentionally used the U.N. sanctions against Iraqi to degrade the country's water supply. Meanwhile, peace activists like Kathy Kelly are hardly mainstays in the media pundit circus. However, every time a U.S. president orders bombings of countries like Iraq or Serbia the mass media gives plenty of airtime to retired military officers for the purpose of fanning the flames of war.
Now peace activists are going to be asked to shut their mouths about U.S. violence around the world out of respect for the thousands of victims of the September 11 terror attacks. What a bunch of bullshit. I say, honor the memory of the victims of September 11: Denounce and oppose U.S. violence everywhere.
Build in some means of fire suppression that can control a fire involving at least one or two entire floors of the building, and make that system able to survive a major aircraft impact.
.. I'll let the engineers take it from here ..
The basic structure probably would have survived more or less intact, thanks to the core's penetrable structure, if it hadn't been for the fire that involved at least one entire floor below each impact point, presumably from pooled fuel. The heat from the fire was what caused the collapse of the upper sections of the building, and when the framework failed and the upper sections fell 20-30 feet, that overloaded the remaining parts of each tower and caused the rest of the tower to collapse.
Go back and look at the footage -- you can see this yourself. The collapse was essentially straight down, with scattered outfall of debris -- vertical enough to shear off the fascia panels, which you can see standing about 40 stories high for several seconds after the north tower collapses. If the crash had caused the structural failure, the collapse would have been asymmetrical and the building would have toppled sideways. Thus, this was essentially fire damage and thermal weakening of the steel.
How to make this system survive an impact? Best suggestion I can make is an armored standpipe system, possibly near the corners so at least some of the standpipes survive, with heat activated discharge nozzles that flood the floor if it gets hot enough to threaten the structure itself. May not put out the fire, but could at least cool the framework to where it remains intact
73 de N5VB (ex-KD5BIV) AR SK
Buy a handheld aviation GPS. $1000 for a nice one that will happily tell you exactly where to point the plane and let you know if you're off course to teh left or right.
I shouldn't laugh at how easy this is, but you're right. Reading your comment made me picture a terrorist pilot with a talking GPS calmly giving computerized directions totally unaware of the horror it's facilitating.
Kinda makes you look forward to AI so that the GPS can refuse to give directions. "You want to land this plane where?!"
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
The Boston Herald story gave me pause for thought. Given the level of damage that a plane laden with fuel can do it seems imperative that the pilots not give hijackers control of the plane. Trading this off against the lives of stewardesses and passengers would be incredibly difficult.
It seems like there should be some guidelines for pilots otherwise how can we stop this happening again?
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries
is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the
United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled
on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars
into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are
writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the
store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here
on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is dar n
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present
troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
Really twisted. I hope the Better Business Bureau can get on this.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
~ Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
apparently a man on his cellphone called his family and told him about the WTC attacks, he took a poll of the male passengers on board and they stormed the cock pit.
if they did that rather than allow them to hit the white house or soemthing - they deserve some sort of medal.
Aminal - DRUMMS!!
One of the most enduring images of this attack should be our White House, still standing. It looks now that it was spared only because of the brave actions of individuals on two of the planes. Terrorists sacrificed their lives in the name of hatred, but more Americans were willing to sacrifice their lives yesterday in the name of freedom, both passengers/crew on airlines and rescue workers on the ground. Every time I look at the White House, I'll remember just how much worse it could have been, if not for these brave people. Thank you, whoever you were.
rm -rf /bin/laden
nb. This is a bash command
(thanks to Damien H. for sending me this)
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
On the radio the FBI asked us not to belive any reports but the ones that were coming from them and had this new:
-The White House and Air Force one were definite targets and they still had not determined why the plane on target for the WH turned towards the Pentagon
-The terrorists who were pilots, several of the group, were trained at Huffman Aviation in Daytona Beach, FL. Because they signed up for training some time ago and learned to fly probably for this reason, they believe they had planning this for quite some time (http://www.huffman-veniceflying.com/ - I think)
-They positively identified the weapons as box cutters, knives and knife like implements
- They have identified most if not all of the terrorists that were on the planes
- They refuse to associate them with some particular country or ruler
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
I was very touched this morning looking at Iliad's comic. It was really heartfelt. Thanks.
Scott
Two floors of the WTC were home to over 300 Sun employees as part of Sun's NYC operation.
There is a thing called a Glaser Safety Slug. It's basically a pistol bullet loaded with shot suspended in oil. Devastating against flesh, but it won't penetrate even wood: It's market is for people who want a gun for home defense, but don't want to risk having the bullet go through the wall and hit a neighbor
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
Saw this post on a Gamefaqs.com board a bit ago...A bit of cheer for those that need it, maybe, and something for anyone that's been bashing the US lately to consider :)
Needs help.
Comment: "Personally, I don't want to hurt Bin Laden or whoever is behind these attacks. I simply want them to STOP. If force is required to achieve this, then I will accept that. But I refuse to act out of anger or the desire for my enemies to suffer."
Response: "If they are dead, they will stop."
(For more interesting responses, go here!)
I've been thinking about this and I know it sounds morbid but these hijackers were in fact hackers - all they did really was find a previously unknown security hole.
what? he's right...
celebrate unity and the greatness of the us until you arms fall off and donate 5 pints of blood.
still close to 10000 dead, and nothing that can be done. there's not enough wounded to use half the blood being donated. they're all dead. there's not even 1% of that number that can be held really responsible. they won. wear black, that's the only appropriate color. this is the worst tragedy of your lifetime, not the 4rth of july.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Well, the reason I'd think they wouldnt just yet want to admit shooting down a commercial plane, is due to the civilians.. americans no less, on board... It's almost like one of those things you know you have to do, but are ashamed of doing, for whatever reasons there may be.. and I dunno, maybe right now isnt the time to come out with it yet..
Which reminds me... I heard about a 5th plane going down once on the news, and that's all I heard about it.. Not even a single word was said (that i've heard) about the plane afterwards.... anyone else remember hearing that? It sounds to me like something's being kept secret/covered up for some reason... and no, im not a 'conspiracy' person.. it just seems odd to me.
-- fuzz
http://www.digifuzz.net
Many have compared this tragedy to Pearl Harbor. It reminds me more of Hiroshima, except that the magnitude of death in Hiroshima was much greater.
I doubt the comparison to Hiroshima will be made much though in the media -- we prefer to feel like we are innocent of committing anything similar to what has happened yesterday in New York.
Of course, one could argue that Hiroshima was not a terrorist act because the bombing was undertaken to end a war, but was not the target also a civilian one?
I offer these thoughts not as any kind of justification for what has happened, only out of hope that we never use a nuclear attack on civilians again. We now may have gained real, yet slight sympathy, of what the victims of Hiroshima may have felt.
The British and the Soviets both failed in the attempt to conquer Afghanistan. Even the Taliban don't control the whole country.
More detailed article: Engineers Seek Answers (Unfortunately, lacks dead-tree version's diagrams.)
And also, mainstream-press coverage of yesterday's internet meltdown: Internet Not Up to Need for News
Before yesterday I hated Carnivore, but the truth is there was evidence that something big was going to happen this week on the net.
I thought is was a joke or just your average a$$hole blabbing off.
If someones looking over my back to save lives I'm all for it. I don't care if my privacy is in danger, privacy is privacy.
Human life is much more valuable to me.
Both Japanese and American militaries had been preparing for some time for a single decisive naval battle. I believe the Japanese overestimated the capacity of submarines for direct naval action and underestimated the capacity of submarines to devastate a defenseless merchant fleet. Their naval plans including the attack on Pearl Harbor generally included some ineffectual use of submarines. Furthermore the traditions of the Japanese military, and perhaps their society, betrayed them when Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, who had never commanded a fleet with aircraft carriers, was assigned to command the attacking force because of long dedicated service. I have read claims that Nagumo did not believe in Yamamoto's plan, claims that would be consistent with the men's different background.
The attack actually succeeded beyond all expectations except the US aircraft carriers were not in port. Perhaps one could argue this eliminated any chance Japan could stalemate the US and force a truce. But at Pearl Harbor itself, Nagumo simply chickened out in fear of the missing aircraft carriers. He did not share Yamamoto's belief (Yamamoto is often described as a poker-loving gambler) that all had to be put into the pot to win that one hand. This was the one chance for Japan to eliminate Pearl Harbor's repair facilities, oil tanks. With those facilities intact the US was within months able to repel the Japanese at Coral Sea which saved Australia and then smash the Japanese carrier force at Midway, which turned out to be the decisive battle that both sides had been planning for, although perhaps neither side had anticipated that war in the Pacific would basically be fought out of sight from the carrier decks. And after the US fixed its problems with its torpedoes, the submarine fleet went on to sink the entire Japanese merchant fleet.
It would have been best for Japan to have not attacked the US directly, instead seizing Indonesia and hoping for the best. But that decision was not Yamamoto's to make. Given that the Japanese leadership was going to order war with the US, Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor was ingenious and the only hope. Any hope of the plan's success was foiled by lack of daring and initiative.
Go to yahoo.com, the VVVV stock/finance message board (that's 4 V's), message #2254, or read below.
Re: VVVV to THE MOON!!!!
by: strategists2000 09/10/01 06:59 pm
Msg: 2254 of 2719
to the deapest part called the center of the earth by this wekend north east region will be destroyed new providance soon to fall apart
Okay, basically what it boils down to is this, those who are responsible should be dealt with. If Bin Laden was acting on his own in a midwest city, fine, go arrest his ass and put him in prison.
If it was Bin Laden acting out of a foriegn nation without their support (basically they let him be there but weren't actually funding him, helping him plan this, etc), then we should simply ask that government to hand him over. If they refuse, to do that (or at the very least hand him over to an international court), skip to the next paragraph.
If it was Bin Laden being sponsored by a foreign government, then that government has committed an act of undeclared war and we should deal with them as such. Historically speaking that means bomb them til they surrender, then go in and reconstruct their government as we see fit (see Japan and Germany for reference material). Note: focus of attack should be squarely on government and military. After we have torn them down, and this is the most important part, we should fund reconstruction of the country (buying good will and perhaps a future stable ally ).
I make a point of mentioning a reconstruction effort because WW2 was in large part created by not doing that with Germany during WW1 (IMHO). They were in bad financial shape which is what allowed a dictator like Hitler to come to power. By building them up financially (perhaps leaving it even better than we started), we burn out one more holes for terrorists to hide in.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Undoubtedly why they turned south near Albany, NY. The Hudson river flows south. Just follow it until you reach the ocean. Then look for the two big towers.
The girlfriend of someone I work with was actually supposed to be on flight 11 but decided to take a later flight because she didn't feel like getting up so early - he didn't know she wasn't on the flight though, and because everyone was trying to do the same thing couldn't reach her on her cellphone. Eerie.
Yea, emergency autopilot override...can you imagine creating the ability for someone to overtake an aircraft remotely? Can you say 'bak-doar'? how bout 'rewt-kit'? ...as ye so, so shall ye reap.
-Legion
Does anyone else notice how the tactics of this attack mirror the attack on the Capitol building in Tom Clancy's book "Executive Orders". If I remember correctly, I read it a few years ago, he talks about how hard it would be to stop a large plane near the target, due to the sheer momentum and size of a modern airliner.
Just another random thought.
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." -Mark Twain
Only excerpts (I have no interest in reading more) - the unbelievers are not people and are to be converted, by the 'sword' if necessary.
It's pretty easy to find those kinds of genocidal passages in the bible as well. Especially if you quote with a purpose.
But then again, the Christians haven't crashed into any towers or exploded car bombs in busy streets lately of which I am aware
What about the christian Timothy McVeigh? Or the catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland?
And of course, it is far from clear that this was done by moslems acting on religious grounds in the first place.
I'm pretty old and I've come to the conclusion that evil is amazingly evenly distributed among different religions, political views and ethnic groups. I used to think not, but I've learned.
Haven't been paying very close attention to reality lately, have we?
I bought a GPS a couple of months ago, even the $300C model I have would be adaquate to navigate a plane if you had someone capable of using the planes controls. Even if all the electronic navigation aids on the aircraft were non-functional a small handheld GPS unit would be adaquate. (Even with selective availability it would get you within 100meters in pitchblack, never mind this was done after sunrise.
4 DivX videos of both plane crashes, very high quality. Check out http://www.watership.org/media under Movies, look for wtc-*tower*-A.avi (good quality) wtc-*tower*-B.avi (same vids, high quality)
I am trying to distribute this URL as widely as possible. It lists 10 simple ways ordinary citizens can fight back against these terrorists. Please take a minute to look at the site, it's just one page.
http://www.geocities.com/fightterror/index.html
So many people feel like they need to help, either by giving blood or donating to the Red Cross. These are some other ways that will have a tremendous collective impact.
Thank you,
John DeFalco
> Those who are tolerant of the intolerant are
> themselves intolerant. Only by being intolerant
> of the intolerant can we, ourselves, be
> tolerant.
uh, "we had to destroy the village in order to save it"
Thankyou for bringing a voice of sanity into this forum, and reminding us what slashdot is really all about.
$10 in quarters is enough to learn how to steer and control altitude. They can kill the pilots when they see Manhattan, they don't have to d it right away.
$50 for MS FLight Sim lets your learn enough to land (if not gently on your first try) with a few dozen hours playing.
Should read: "One pissed off moron."
First off, the knives were plastic (polycarbonate) or ceramic (speculation), and as such were larger than 4 inches.
Big knives are already illegal - you _can't_ make it more illegal to bring on a plane. Banning box cutters and pen knives won't stop that. It's a knee-jerk reaction that serves no real purpose, much like censorship "for the kids".
If you want, you could break the mirror in the bathroom, oick up a shard of the glass in a gloved hand (OJ's maybe) and take a stewardess hostage. The pilot, despite knowing better, will likely let the terrorist into the cockpit, they both get killed and bammo, 1 more plane down.
Peopel will say "The FBI/NSA/CIA needs more money." Bull. They need to deal with real crimes like this, and not be corporate thugs for hire, as evidenced by the prosecutuion of Dmitri or the DeCSS kid.
To the idiots on the planes the next time. If you know your going to die, or can reasonably expect it, die fighting. I know I would have - and I state that having been attacked by a knife wielder before. But no, the preaching of "Don't be a hero" and "tell a teacher" when confronted by bullies is what we are taught. Screw that. Take a stand, be a man, and roll those dice.
My hat off to the 3 guys that did just that in the PA flight. They died bravely, and foiled their terrorists. Had they better luck, they might have lived, had they not tried, they would still be dead, possibly with firends of their on the ground dead as well.
One last thing: This places the Egypt Air pilot who rammed his plane into the sea delibeately in a new light. If he did so to foil his terrorists, Allah will have heard his prayer and taken him in. Assuming their is an Allah, Budha, God, etc.
I would like to add that the walls of the new towers should be covered with the names of the victims of this atrocity.
Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier).
from snopes2.com
from snopes.com
Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier).
Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier).
from snopes.com
I hear a lot of talk about "values" from a lot of right-wing idiots. Somehow their "values" always mean that doing whatever THEY want is good, and now they want to lash out and kill for revenge without even waiting to confirm guilt. They're just as fanatical as the terrorists -- fanatics and terrorists of Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or any other religion or ideology are all the same -- too bad they can't just blow each other up and leave people who AREN'T fascist morons alone. If someone thinks the Taliban is bad -- and it is -- why would bombing the hell out of the women and children suffering under it be a good thing? Is slaughtering the helpless a "good American value"? Is someone living in a country automatically a "supporter" of a tyrant?
Update: Amazon has upped the donation cap to $100. Again, I presume you could donate multiple times if you wanted to.
We don't need to control it. We don't need to set up a saint. We just need (if it is a need) to remove the Devil we know. If the Taliban wants to hand him over, fine. If not, fine. If they interfere, so be it.
Some people fail to understand that the US, if it chose to, could eliminate every MidEast country, raze the land, execute the governments and people.
The US could do this without resorting to nuclear weapons, if it was willing to lose 1-5 Million people.
It could supply the military power to India, who hates Muslim nations such as Pakistan to do it for them.
But the US doesn't do these things.
The U.S. doesn't deliberately try to kill civilians as a goal. It goes to great lengths to avoid doing so, wherever possible. (i.e. flyers being dropped prior to the atmoics).
There are idiots in the US just as there are in every other country who will jump to knee jerk reactions. As in every other country, those loud obnoxious poorly thought out voices are in the minority, despite popular news coverage which focuses on them. Such as the city in Palestine celebrating this terrorist action.
To be perfectly honest, the powers that matter, militarily, are the US, China, Russia, and India, in that rough order. Pakistan, despite being nuclear, is dwarfed by India and the others.
Russia doesn't particularly love the MidEast, they dislike parts of it historically. China has never loved religious countries. And India pretty much dislikes the MidEast as well.
Israel, whether US pawn, or Zionist empire, could be manipulated into willingly nuking the surrounding area, and taking the brunt of the return fire, if any.
The US could credibly nuke the MidEast with hundreds of TACTICAL nukes, to mimize fallout as compared with dozens of huge bombs.
If the US is pushed and goaded and eventually does deteriorate to the level of the terrorists, the US will lose much, but the MidEast would lose everything.
Your comment makes no sense. The country McVeigh was in immediately turned him over to the cops. That country was the US. But we didn't harbor him once he was a criminal.
They took out the terrorists, but no one knew how to fly the plane. Jeremy Glick was the leader of the resistance.
They saved hundreds of others, and possibly their own friends if any in the target area.
And pray tell, that area in the US is more populated than the WTC?
That crap about all the possible places a plane could crash are NOT cumulative. It can't crash at them all, and a plane exploded at 10,000 feet burns most of the fuel in the air on the way down.
Given that the people in the plane die either way, and the gas left burns either way, shooting the window and explosively decompressing any of these planes would have saved lives.
You can't make the cockpit door into a bank vault. The engineering stresses of pressurization phrohibit this sort of thing on commercial planes which need to fly every day. The Shuttle flies less than a dozen times a year, that's why it can be secure.
You can add an additive to Aviation fuel to make it inflammable. They did a study in 1980 (nap.gov i think) but didn't implement it because it was not previously viewed as cost effective.
And all thanks to the director of the project himself, the man behind the Mercury project and who gave NASA its wings: Doctor Werner Von
m l
Braun. He was director of research being the most brilliant man in the field. A true American hero!
Here is a picture of the man at his previous employer:
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/von07.ht
Legend: Visit to Peenemünde May 26, 1943. At the extreme left is Dr. Walter Thiel, A4/V2 propulsion designer, and next to him is Councilor Plendel. The officer behind him is Colonel Claus Count Schenk von Stauffenberg. Further to the right walks Infantry General Herbert Olbricht, an unidentified officer, and then Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz in the navel greatcoat. General Heinz Brandt is seen in front of the A4/V2 rocket, hands behind his back. Colonel Walter Dornberger has turned to talk to the officer behind him while von Braun in the dark suit follows to his left. The officer at the extreme right is unidentified.
Holly Shit! Donitz and Stauffenberg all in one picture!? He must have been some serious hotshit that Herr Von Braun at the time. Ever seen
that V2 in the Smithonian? A few room later there is the Messerchmidt 262 the first true jet and not a rocket plane like the Messerchmidt
Komet. Oh by the way, the last test pilot of the Komet, Mano Zeigler, was letter an USAF commander testing the Starfighter, a legendary plane.
He wrote a great book called Rocket Fighter, a must read!
1) Gerri Halliwell - It's raining men Halilujia.. sung in wall street district while jumpers were doing it.
2) Come Fly me me, by Sinatra
3) Imagine all the people - Lennon..
4) Stuff by crash boom orchrestra
5) Fly like a bird..
Sheesh - even elevator music DJ's under the microscope- as is entire rescue units that got heavied. Make them pay....
Ugh.
Such illogical drivel. Trying to find meaning in the meaningless and trashing rationality in the process.
Notice how you tried to make a consistent point but conveniently ignored the inconsistency that would have destroyed your so-called "order": all of the numbers you derived were found by adding the numbers of the flight numbers _except_ for the first one. You took that one without modification simply because it seemed to support your hypothesis and would not have if you were consistent in adding the numbers of all flights.
See http://skepdic.com/numology.html for interesting look at the fallacy of "numerology".
-coreStill. . .
Look at the recent media content. We've got a whole load (like five) new spy drama T.V. shows coming out this fall. (Which is almost exactly 5 more than any season of the past decade has come out with.) And also, that chest thumping, 'Pearl Harbor' movie this summer just happened to be there in time to help set the mental state of the American public. If that painfully kitsch, "America Under Attack" logo banner used by CNN was prepared months or years ago, (as it surely was in preparation for this day which everybody knew was coming), then what kind of planning do you think has been done by the secret service, military and various secret government agencies?
Notice how the plane crashed into a wing of the Pentagon which had been closed for renovation.
--Or how the recession being sold to the public over the last few weeks has just been kicked into VERY high gear. (Prime conditions to sell a start-up of the ultra profitable American war machine.)
Or that the only foriegn country being bandied about in the media just happens to be land-locked by Iran, India, Russia, and Pakistan, thus forcing an issue which might otherwise have be dealt with by a sea assult had any other country been given the spotlight. (Two countries for the price of one!)
If this whole thing wasn't choreographed from the get go, (a sick but, I think entirely plausible notion, far easier to accomplish than the uninitiated might suspect. Look up 'Greenbaum Lecture' and related.), --Sheesh! Even a clunky theory like, "It was Isreal. If they engineered an Arab attack, then they can gurantee the swift destruction of at least on aggressor nation," has its appeal. But at the VERY least, it seems plausible that there are agencies who have been waiting in the wings for just such a ball as this WTC thing to get past the national security goal posts. -Agencies which come armed with whole six course meals of propaganda and manipulation plans so that when the music stops, the people they want will get the choice seating on the new world stage. And you can bet that the poor & wretched will get more numerous and more wretched as a result. And the privileges of the power elite will increase.
You watch.
Anyway, the current set of working theories run as follows:
-Nato Article 5 invoked.
-U.S. will go to other, non-U.S. friendly countries who have in the past have harbored terrorists, and ask for public and direct help in eradicating cell groups of whatever terrorist organizations reside in the given countries. They will either get it, or they will march in and take it. In either case, the result will likely be instituted systems and personel forced into the current bureaucracies of non-U.S. friendly nations, which will more than likely become permanent fixtures, enforced by the U.N. and NATO.
-All NATO countries will agree that terrorism must be battled unilaterally, meaning the global curtailing of human rights and freedoms. Information networks even more drastic than Echelon will likely be implemented, (or revealed).
I wonder how long it will be before the concentration camps are re-kindled. Luckily, the Arians from Outer Space Nazi crap, (yes, according to the old propaganda, Arians actually came from outer space), does not currently have an equivalent in today's U.S. And I don't think that basic racism as it is being programmed will be enough to send things to WWII levels of brutality once again. But something tells me that this is where we are headed. And sooner than we might like to think. . . We'll have to see what the powers that be come up with. This whole airplane terrorist thing isn't a bad start, though.
In any case, while I hate and despise the concept of murder in any form, I must say that part of me completely 'got' the terrorist display, the WTC being pretty much ground zero of corporate, greed-based evil in the world. America has killed many thousands of innocents in other parts of the world with glib righteousness. Given this, part of me even thought that there was an almost noble quality about this week's terrorist act. --Let's be honest; the attack could EASILY have been far more destructive and far less discriminating. Biological. . . Nuclear. . . What happened was almost neighborly by comparison to what could have been. Like knocking over your mailbox to make a statement rather than throwing a burning bottle through your window.
I don't think anybody thought that the WTC would actually collapse. It was common knowledge that the structures were designed to withstand such collisions with aircraft, which they did admirably. It was the melting superstructure due to so much aircraft fuel which caused the collapse. Of course, this might just have been more clever scripting. (Ding. Ding. Pardon my corruption meter.)
Anyway, before anybody sets about lynching me, please recall that, 'Fight Club,' is a popular film around
Enjoy your freedoms while they last, and enjoy the clever scripting and of the upcoming CNN spectacular. It was written with all of us in mind. . .
-Fantastic Lad
it's right..Any ore exemples?
USA financed ALL except ONE dictatorial govts. in central and south america afraid the USSR could do that before them(the one is Cuba, of course). (and for those blind idiots, before the USSR colapse Cuba had undoubtely the best social conditions of all these countries, if one have no opinion on those places, at least could have health and education there)
No, i'm not comunist, i'm 100% capitalist. I just like the so blessed american FREEDOM..the same freedom USA help to take away from most of Latin America
the APARTHEID in S.A. was backed up by USA for it's whole existence after the zulu people started talking to URSS. It was not a racial problem, it as a POLITICAL problem..but who suffered? americans? not right?
Lets Protect the american way of life, the "democracy and freedom" land.
The american way to solve those problems? Blow up any "democracy and freedom" that is outside US borders..
No one would ever hate US if had any reason..
And for the "usa don't give a damn about the rest of the world" i would just see what they learn in scholl about the world in geography and history classes... if they do...
I've flown lots of MS flight sim. If you lock on to a VOR, the equipment would lock right on and fly you driectly over it. If you had planned this you would know the heading and distance from the VOR beacon. Make the turn (or program the autopilot to do it for you). After that it is simply a matter of adjusting for wind (not much that day) and keeping the right altitude, which may well be the hardest part. I believe that big jets are much more stable than small ones which get buffeted around a lot.
I heard another jet had to dodge one of the planes, which indicates they were in a lane heading for a VOR.
Does anyone know what rate of knots they were doing - looked pretty damn fast! It would be hard to fly that fast and low as speed tends to give you lift.
* * Always question "the National Interest" - 9 times out of 10 it is a cover for evil
My question was directed at you because out of curiosity to how SQL scales, I clicked your sig link.
I know I should be a bit smarter in the future, and obviously should have explained myself further in my previous post. I assumed that the person who choses a sig such as that to deliberately mislead someone to be a dickhead.
Mod this however you so choose. But before you do, maybe read the original post I replied to.
Maybe see if YOU might be inclined to search for more info.
See if you don't get a bit pissed.
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither. " Ben Franklin
Tucked in the middle of Rick's statment was a comment on how regretable it was that we bombed the poor Serbs. I have family members who volunteered in Bosnia. After seeing the level of carnage, torture & rape perpetrated on huge numbers of the men & women of Bosnia, with great enthusiasm by some Serbs & with the support of virtually all Serbs, my mild & decent relatives regretted that we hadn't bombed all of Serbia back into the Stone Age. Your perverted loyalties taint your views on the issue of the current attacks, Rick.
... which is exactly the same logic that the terrorists use to justify their atrocities.
Congratulations. You just became like them.
We may succeed in instituting security measures that prevent terrorists from hijacking airliners and crashing them into skyscrapers. Maybe.
But eventually, someday, a group of terrorists will obtain a nuclear bomb, put it in the trunk of a car, drive that car to midtown Manhattan, leave it there, detonate it by remote control, and incinerate millions of lives.
We can take steps to make obtaining nuclear devices more difficult, but eventually this will happen. Maybe not this year. Maybe not five years from now. But in the next fifteen years or so it will happen.
The only way to prevent this from happenning is to stop the kind of people who become anti-American terrorists from becoming anti-American terrorists in the first place. And that is by stopping aid to Israel.
Right now we provide billons of dollars for Israel to arm themselves. They use these arms to, among other things, shoot Arab kids. Other Arabs see this on TV and get extremely angry. A small percentage of them become so angered as to become killers themselves. And they decide to take out their anger on Israel's rich benefactor, the USA.
Unless we stop aid to Israel, or at least threaten the Israeli's with the termination of our financial and military aid, Arabs will continue to be incensed with us, and some of them will violently attack us. Today with hijacked airliners. Tomorrow with nuclear bombs.
Well, maybe due to the traumatisms of WWI and II,
proximity of the Eastern Block, and so on,
but this used (I do not know if it was
true until Tuesday) to be the case in Europe,
at least in France for what I know. Not the
stingers, of course, but the 10 minutes radius.
Maybe it's because the country is smaller,
or because the feeling of safety and the
self-confidence is not as high. Are there any
military airfields around NY, or was NORAD only
fearing Russian Bison bombers coming
across the North Pole with 6 hours notice,
ready to be intercepted above Canada ?
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
And Europe?
A consistent policy is a solution. If you can just cross the border and buy a gun....
I usually don't appriciate people posting ideas to be spread "to everybody" usually because the idea is insincere or coercive, or some damn form of advertizing.. But somehow I feel like spreading this one around. At least I'm sincere about it..
I was watching a news report that covered the expected economic impact of this terrible event. One thing they mentioned was that the impact of just one day of people not shopping, going to restaraunts, stores, etc., would be on the order of $15 billion.
I realized that part of the reason of striking at the WTC, besides the great number of people there, is that it's a blow to the financial and business heart of America and the West. They struck to injure not only so very many people, but the economics of our society.
I suddenly thought, "If everybody goes out and buys the groceries, toys, tools, sees a movie, goes out to eat, etc., that they would have not done in the days of mourning after this terrible tragedy, it would more than make up for the loss THAT THEY WANTED!"
And it goes right along with denying them the rest of the victory they want -- all of us staying at home, shocked and afraid.
Well, we're not going to do that.
Don't allow yourself to feel powerless. Don't allow them to panic us into recession. Go out with some friends. Buy someone a gift. Take some friends out to dinner. Donate blood. Give some money to a charity. Get some extra stuff at the store to make a special dinner. Buy your kids those toys they've been wanting. Do something for somebody else.
Let's show the world that America, despite adversity and serious tests, goes on and lives life!
I'd like to see everyone spread this message and take it to heart. They're not going to get satisfaction from us.
Jon
A PS on this, I read on another board a post from a Swedish guy, that they had started a groundswell of investors vowing to not sell their stock yesterday. There was little to no selling, they actually boycotted selling and made it happen... and the Swedish stock market ended rallying up 6%.
Who says people are powerless??
I seem to remember hearing that the WTC towers were constructed with large amounts of asbestos. (Apparently the PA was able to circumvent environment restrictions for this project).
There has certainly been some engineering work done- "ASB abate" on the towers over the last few years.
Does anyone have the details? Is there a severe asbestos risk in the area? Is the smoke and dust highly carcinogenic?
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Oh yes, an another arrogant American asshole :)
.... (use imagination). You needn`t to accept the view
:)
Sorry, bad joke. But there is a lot of true in that.
The main problem is that you can be in view of others
an arrogant asshole and you don`t know about this.
Interactions between people - it`s not a physics, mathematics and so on. You have no real "black and white"
and no "good and bad" You have some axioms, got by
culture enviroment around you. Something, you think about
of as of good could be in view of others a malicious act
of
of others, but have to have it on the mind and respect it. For example, I`m from Europe. Of course, I don`t think too much good about "american culture" and "shiny, great american lifestyle". But - that`s not important. More important is, I don`t think, I have patent on truth (nor MINISTRY OF TRUTH behind me) and I respect your style, decisions and so on - in USA. And I assume your respect to my lifestyle in my country. That`s main and very old principle, encoded in humans just that way as in many other animals on this planet - principle of teritoriality. If you try, or more - you needn`t actively try, you can let - expand your culture or anything other "yours" to my country without my !!!!real!!!! permission, you are an attacker, enemy and I will defend my teritorium at all cost. Push a rat to a corner, and you will see.
So, if you come to my country, you have three choices.
Act as me, there is not important if you like or dislike my
style, intensively study it and act this way, because you are
at my teritorium. Or, you dislike my style too much or can`t understand enough to act as me, so return to your country.
Or, you can try to act in my coutry the way, you act at home - the best way to war and millions of dead. (Of course
your dead, you arrogant bastard - sorry, irony
The tragedy of Manhattan has two views: One - It`s the mass murder at your country and the ones who prepared the attack and are not dead yet must be caught and executed. That`s not principle of good and bad and shouldn`t be. That`s simple principle of teritoriality. The other view - it was attack on the symbols of USA, direct
attact on your country. Sure, you will hate me, but -
USA got, what asked for. Buildings destroyed by terrorist attack, people killed or enslaved by organizations supported by USA, "Humanitarian" bombing of Beograd.
Where is the difference? All of this came from disrespect
to teritoriality. Of course, you had a good reason for
"humanitarian bombs" I`m sure. The people, who destroyed
WTC would argument by good reasons too - in view of theirs. I read a lot idiotic about "nuking Arabs back into stone age". What about "nuking Americans into stone age to try it" Great idea, I think (irony, of course). Your politics
have lips full of "defense of american interests" You
have no right to "defend" your "interests" outside your
country. Of course you have the interests in other countries,
everybody has. But you have no "right" to "defend" them.
What great asshole used this term first? And - "humanitarian" actions are the same in ligt blue.
For example - your controversial law - DMCA. In my view,
this act enslaves you, it`s undemocratic, unhumanian and
very, very Orwellian. Great, I will grab carrier and send a flight to bombard your capital to save you from your
"slavery" Or better, I will nuke it. That`s better. Your "enslavers" will vaporize in one second and good and
peace rules everywhere forever. I see in the TV Palestinians
celebrating the attack. I know enough of your dead, so I
really dislike this. I heard about people demandig them
to nuke. But - they are the same people as we, there is
no enough genetical difference. Why they celebrate? They
like the people dead? No, they don`t see your dead, they
see the DEATHSTAR destroyed, they see the EMPIRE got
a serious blow. Ask, ask why they treat you as an EMPIRE.
Ask not, how to destroy them, ask why they treat USA as an EMPIRE. And whom to ask? Of course the Palestinians and other "dirty Arabs" That`s not a question of islam or any other ideology. That`s a question of teritoriality.
Here are a bunch of pics from webcams around Manhattan and some of the Pentagon on fire that I grabbed Tuesday upon getting to work.
Most show the WTC in its final moments.
http://aslan.wheatonma.edu/~ken/wtccat
With recently uncovered facts, we now know how these deeds were perpetrated. No guns, no explosions. Simple hand implements and the knowledge of how to use them. Airline staff aren't combat trained, but what if they were? How could things have happened differently if people were better equipped, mentally and physically, to handle a hand to hand attack? Could you defend yourself against someone with a knife? Having studied some martial arts and sword fighting techniques, I'm glad I can say I could hold my own against an untrained attacker or even a slightly capable one.
Anything we can study (martial arts etc...), the hijackers could too. Banning knives is only part of the solution, given the human body's capability to act as a deadly weapon. Eliminating the terrorist threat calls for:
1. Elimination of the motives for terrorist recruitment - if they can't find desperate fanatic people, it will be a lot harder for them to recruit and train people.
2. Damage to the terrorist organizations themselves - economic, physical, head-hunting (get the leaders and the experts), moral (do not give them an excuse to attack us - if we treated the Arab world as fairly as we do the European world, this might never have happened).
3. I'm hung over (too?) and can't think of a good point 3, sorry.
No sig for me - too lazy to fill one in...
I'm an over the road truck driver. Bear in mind that 98% of things that drivers say over the CB radio are bull. However what I heard around/during the time of the WTC attack seems less like a driver tale, and more like something out of Conspiracy Theory. At the time of the WTC attack, I was in VA on my way to my next stop in SC. While I was heading down to Charlotte, there was plenty of chatter on the CB about the attack of course. I have a "big" radio in my truck, which means on an average day I can communicate 100 miles or better, it also means I can tune in AM/FM/SSB (upper and lower). During the trip there was a man on a base station talking about the bomb they found in one of the parking garages under a skyscraper. I believe he said the Wachovia bank building (I was still adjusting my clarifier to tune in his exact frequency). At the time I knew that Charlotte had planned to do another dry run in their Anti-Terrorist exorcises, they made those public. The 11th was the scheduled day for their run. From what was said on the CB, and bear in mind that this is from a source with questionable credibility... What was said exactly was that during the exorcise, and before the attack, a suspicious vehicle was parking in the garage. After inspection of the vehicle, they called in the bomb squad and diffused the bomb. Later on that morning the attack occurred on the WTC. I didn't talk to the Han (person) transmitting this, I find it's better to let people talk too much to give them enough rope to hand themselves. He didn't seem to be as full of it as I thought when FBI and SWAT were swarming all over that area. The news made mention of a "possible" bomb. Then re-canted their statements about it saying "it was a false alarm" and a "hoax". I haven't heard another mention about the incident. But I'm curious. Was it really a hoax? Who would risk making a bomb, real or fake... Putting this device in a car, something that CAN be traced, and putting it under a sky scraper? That seems like an awful risk to take, and not quite something that I would buy as being just "some pranksters out for a laugh". Then again, I'm just another ignorant truck driver, what do I know right? ~Clerric
The planes turned south near Albany NY because that's where you can see the Hudson River. Any wannabe terrorist with a map can see that you follow the river straight to Manhatten.
Ever flown? A river is one of the few landmarks that an inexperienced person can recognize from
the air.
I found out later that evening that the collapses register about a 2.1 on the richter scale.
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
Oh, shut up asshole. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Jeezus, some people.
...if you want to know the difference between Canadian and American society (I've lived and have relatives in both), it boils down to learning to listen before learning to raise your fist. Try it. It's important: more important than how available guns are. When you visit elsewhere, act as a guest. And don't be afraid to learn from your hosts. If you need to defend, do so. And you have our very best wishes.