Shuttle's Tiny PC Reviewed

PhantomHarlock writes "VIAHardware posted a review of a great miniature PC desktop system from Shuttle, the motherboard manufacturer. It's a tiny aluminum case with a floppy bay and one 5 1/4 bay. It uses Shuttle's FV24 mobo, one of the smallest on the market. The motherboard has built in video (with S-Video out), audio, 10/100 Ethernet, USB and dual firewire ports. " Might be a nifty device to use as a stereo component with that S-Video out.

Comments

Interesting Specs

[XBL]

These are from the MWave site (notice the FireWire!):

VIA VT8604 North Bridge
Host interface
Integrated Savage4 2D/3D Graphics Engine
PC 133 SDRAM/VCM interface
PCI interface
ACPI Compliant

VIA VT82C686B South Bridge
UDMA 33/66/100 IDE interface
USB interface
AC97 Controller
Integrated Super I/O controller
Integrated hardware monitoring controller
Power management meet ACPI requirement
RTC

CPU: Socket 370 type CPU
Intel Celeron with 66MHz FSB (100MHz FSB for future CPU)
Intel Pentium III with 100 / 133MHz FSB

FSB
66 / 100 / 133MHz

Form Factor
Flex ATX: 7" X 7.5"

Memory
DIMM x 2, Up to 512MB of 168-pin PC100 /PC133 SDRAM

Graphics
Built in Savage 4 graphics engine

Audio
VIA audio with AC'97 CODEC

On board 1394 chipset
Lucent FW323
1394a OHCI link and PHY in single package
Complies with 1394 OHCI specification revision 1.0
Provides three fully compliant cable ports
Support 400Mb/s, 200Mb/s, 100Mb/s data transfer rate

Ethernet
On board Realtek 8139C
IEEE 802.3u 100Base-T specifications compliant
10 Mb/s and 100 Mb/s operation
Supports Wake-On-LAN function

Modem (optional)
Proprietary Modem riser Module
V.90 compliant

Expansion Bus
1 x PCI
PCI 2.2 specification compliant

I/O
Built in VIA 686B
Support 1 UART for Complete Serial Ports
Support 1 Multi-mode parallel port
Support 1 Floppy Disk Controller
Support PS2 keyboard and mouse

H/W Monitor
Built in VIA686B
Voltage, Temperature, Fan Speed Monitor

IDE
Ultra DMA 33/66/100 mode
PIO mode 4
2 IDE ports

Power Management
APM 1.2
ACPI 1.0

BIOS
Award PnP BIOS
DMI 2.3
2Mb flash memory

Back Panel Ports and Connectors
1 x PS/2 Keyboard
1 x PS/2 Mouse
1 x VGA port
1 x Serial Port
1 x Parallel port, supports SPP, ECP, and EPP mode
2 x 1394 ports
1 x S connector
1 x Composite connector
2 x USB ports
1 x RJ45 port
1 x line-in connector
1 x line-out connector

Other connectors and jumpers
2 x fan connectors
2 x Front Panel USB Connector Header
Front side line-out and mic-In Header
CD Audio in connector
Clear CMOS
1 x ATX power connector

Others Feature
CPU Voltage Auto Detecting (CPU PnP)
Support Suspend to Ram
Power on by Ring
Wake-On-LAN

Re:Interesting Specs

[part!cle]

That sure is a lot of stuff!

Re:Interesting Specs

[Squeamish Ossifrage]

I'm amazed that no-one has addressed this yet, but what do we know about driver support? Specifically the usual suspect components: Video card, sound card, USB controller and FireWire (!) controller?

I do know that the RealTek 8139 ethernet card is supported under Windows, Linux and FreeBSD.

Re:Interesting Specs

[hattig]

The video card is a standard Savage based device - XFree86 supports this just fine.

Sound card is integrated VIA southbridge audio. I cannot comment regarding this except I find it more likely than not to be supported in Linux, if not FreeBSD.

USB is standard VIA USB controller which I have used fine in FreeBSD before, and I assume that Linux will support it just fine.

Firewire is Lucent chipset. I don't know if it is supported, look in the kernel source for a Lucent firewire driver.

Re:Interesting Specs

[luge]

Yeah, but does anyone know if the XFree driver supports the s-video out? I've been looking for any documentation on it and google is atypically unhelpful.

Re:Interesting Specs

[jandrese]

On board Realtek 8139C

Man, why is it when companies build in NICs on motherboards they always choose the crappiest one they can find? Bill Paul has some choice words to say about this card (taken from if_rl.c in the FreeBSD source tree).

/*
* The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
* probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made, with the possible
* exception of the FEAST chip made by SMC. The 8139 supports bus-master
* DMA, but it has a terrible interface that nullifies any performance
* gains that bus-master DMA usually offers.
*
* For transmission, the chip offers a series of four TX descriptor
* registers. Each transmit frame must be in a contiguous buffer, aligned
* on a longword (32-bit) boundary. This means we almost always have to
* do mbuf copies in order to transmit a frame, except in the unlikely
* case where a) the packet fits into a single mbuf, and b) the packet
* is 32-bit aligned within the mbuf's data area. The presence of only
* four descriptor registers means that we can never have more than four
* packets queued for transmission at any one time.
*
* Reception is not much better. The driver has to allocate a single large
* buffer area (up to 64K in size) into which the chip will DMA received
* frames. Because we don't know where within this region received packets
* will begin or end, we have no choice but to copy data from the buffer
* area into mbufs in order to pass the packets up to the higher protocol
* levels.
*
* It's impossible given this rotten design to really achieve decent
* performance at 100Mbps, unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or
* some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it.
*
* On the bright side, the 8139 does have a built-in PHY, although
* rather than using an MDIO serial interface like most other NICs, the
* PHY registers are directly accessible through the 8139's register
* space. The 8139 supports autonegotiation, as well as a 64-bit multicast
* filter.
*
* The 8129 chip is an older version of the 8139 that uses an external PHY
* chip. The 8129 has a serial MDIO interface for accessing the MII where
* the 8139 lets you directly access the on-board PHY registers. We need
* to select which interface to use depending on the chip type.
*/

The worst part is, it's not that expensive to build decent 10/100 chips these days. NetGear and LinkSys sell decent cards for as little as $5 a pop. There's really no reason to go with the RealTeks anymore.

Re:Interesting Specs

[TheAlmightyQ]

unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it.

Lets not get reckless and spend too much on a high end CPU now, 75MHz is plenty for anyone.

In my experience, and ethernet controller is an ethernet controller is an ethernet controller is an , etc.. As long as you can plug it in an have it work.

Re:Interesting Specs

[demon-cw]

The VIA via82c686 chipset IS supported by alsa

Re:Interesting Specs

[mikesd81]

Wouldn't this be intersting to put in the trunk of your car and run a touch screen monitor to it that would up front? Maybe to have it run your audio and some other stuff??

Re:Interesting Specs

[WasterDave]

The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.'

This can only be because he hasn't had much experience with the Davicom chipsets. I had a problem with the Davicom chips dropping off at layer 2 under load. Posts to freebsd-hackers seem to suggest that the answer is "yeah, they do don't they" - so bizarrely this is an area where realtek's have an advantage.

I'm no fan of 3com either. I have a 3c905b in a FreeBSD box that (for one reason or another) I just don't want to have to dig out and change. Recently we have been having difficulties running the chip at 100MBit/sec, both on hubs and switches. Changed the cable, even shielded it to no avail.

Where does this leave us? Intel 82559 or death! Although these also have a disclaimer about not wanting to be connected via loopback cables. Gnnnn!

Dave

Re:Interesting Specs

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone ever though of doing random ping scans around the internet using something like:

ping -p ping -p 66797766 xx.xx.xx.xx -S xx.xx.xx.yy ?

I wonder what that would do to carnivore?

btw 66 79 77 66 is B o m b -- I wouldn't bother to look it up either...

Re:Interesting Specs

[jfunk]

re: 3Com 905b

Recently we have been having difficulties running the chip at 100MBit/sec

I had the same trouble in Linux. Rather than mess with it, I replaced it with an 8139. It's not fast by any stretch of the imagination, but it's better than being stuck on 10Mb.

For cheap-o cards, I've had good success with the Tulip and Rhine cards... Well, better than RealTek, anyway.

My favourite PCI cards by far are Intel's EtherExpress Pros. I've consistently been able to get much higher bandwidth out of them. Their switches are fast, too. Speed testing is part of my job, can you tell? :-)

That said, I still like 3Com's PCMCIA cards, but they are totally different beasts.

Re:Interesting Specs

[bergeron76]

It would be quite interesting. I should know. I've done it.

Tell me what you think.

Re:Interesting Specs

[Chomp]

I think Donald Becker summarised it much better:

The RTL8129 series is a low-cost design, and thus should be considered a "connectivity solution" rather a performance-oriented product.

Re:Interesting Specs

[Xtian]

Big problems with 3c905B and 3c905C here as well, in both Win 2000 and Linux (2.4 kernels). Have not been able to link this to my mobos (Abit KT7 and KG7) chipset (Via 686A and 686B) nor networking equipment (Netgear switches and hubs) nor cables (tried various CAT5).

Searching for any info this on the Net is like trying to get IBM to admit they screwed the pooch with their DTLA drives: you can find no info, yet everyone's have problems.

Re:Interesting Specs

[funky womble]

Man, why is it when companies build in NICs on motherboards they always choose the crappiest one they can find? Look in the bit you quoted from the driver source and you see this:

On the bright side, the 8139 does have a built-in PHY

That's got to help keep the size of the board down.

Mwah, maybe

[Jedi Alec]

Might be a nifty device to use as a stereo component with that S-Video out.

Well, it's a nice piece of machinery hardware-wise, but I wouldn't want it in my living room looking like that. Otherwise putting a DVD in that one 5 1/4 slot would be very interesting...

Re:Mwah, maybe

[silicon_synapse]

It's ok, but how much of a conversation could you possibly have about it? I personally wouldn't use such a sig.

Re:Mwah, maybe

[silicon_synapse]

Will the crack-whoring never cease? How do moderators become so brain dead? It's scary really.

Re:Mwah, maybe

[unitron]

"...I wouldn't want it in my living room looking like that."

No kidding. Unless of course you live in one of those converted factories or warehouses and all your furniture comes out of the Sears Craftsman Tool catalog. Otherwise, it has just the right look to be rack mounted in a back room and forgotten 'til it breaks down.

Re:Cool, my hardware on slashdot!

[King_TJ]

The board itself is pretty cool, but that case looks like it was inspired by external DLT tape backup drives! I mean, geesh - I'd almost accidently try to shove a DLT IV cartridge in one of the drive bays, if I wasn't paying attention.

Why in the hell would I use this?

[Jon Coktoastone]

I buy midtower and above, cause I like to be able to connect and disconnect stuff inside my puter without mangling my knuckles.

A tiny computer just means that I need to get out the tweesers and spend an extra 4 hours inside my computer.

If I was worried about space, I'd buy a laptop.

Re:Why in the hell would I use this?

[Anonymous Coward]

A tiny computer just means that I need to get out the tweesers and spend an extra 4 hours inside my computer.

These guys are going to sue you!

Well...

[connorbd]

It does the job of being a small and workable system, and that's about it. It'd be a good cluster box, IMHO, but man... mofo is *ugly*.

Would I buy one? I don't know -- probably if they put it in a nicer case, but not like that. But I speak as someone who still lives at home and doesn't necessarily have space concerns that this box would address. (And I mean, really -- if space was truly an issue, why not just buy a Cappucino box and be done with it?)

What I want to see -- and I'm serious about this -- are a consumer-electronics-type case for a PC with an IR reciever and a graphical LED front panel (for media control) and a wooden case meant to match those "executive" mini-stereos from The Sharper Image...

/Brian

Re:Well...

[SgtXaos]

It might look pretty cool if you sprayed it with black crinkle paint.

Re:Well...

[R.Caley]

Shocking pink fun fur with big wobbly eyes. Then install it in a machine room where the suits will see it and make sure it is running something vital.

Re:Well...

[tswinzig]

But I speak as someone who still lives at home...

I think it's safe to say that everyone lives at home.

Re:Well...

[Skuld-Chan]

Ugly? I thought it was cute! Seriously!

Re:Well...

[cymen]

You could pop the system into this nice cheap baby black cube... Just be sure to investigate a heftier power supply for long term usage. Of course this "baby" case is probably a bit bigger than the one this system comes in but at least it looks cool!

Re:Well...

[WimBo]

Check out the FIC SABRE 1815 as another nice and small machine.. Picked it up at Frys recently...
Wim.

Use ideas

[MentlFlos]

With my usage patterns this thing wouldn't be too good as a my main box, but with that kind of footprint it would make a great little rackable box or as the main post said, some sort of AV component. Heh, I have drive enclosures that are bigger than this thing, I love it.

We also could use something like that here at work in the labs. Our existing dell boxes take up a huge amount of space. We could cram these things under the o-scopes or something.

If I had the money I would get one just so I could play around with it :)

Re:Use ideas

[MentlFlos]

Yeah, replying to my own post.... blablabla

I originally didn't see the little PCI riser card in there. Throw a video in card in there (or tv tuner) and have an IR reciever plopped off the serial port and this thing could be a tivo wanna-be. Oh now I'm really thinking of how cool this box could be. As others mentioned it can also have a DVD drive in there to play disks.

Unlike the tivo too, you could upgrade the HD just by chaining one (or more) off the firewire port. Hmm, are there any good USB or firewire video capture devices? Of course they would need to be linux compatable so that makes it even harder.

Of course you can substitute "tivo" with your favorite digital recording preference

Re:Use ideas

[Riplakish]

No need for an additional video card. It has an integrated video chip(Savage) that has TV-Out(S-Video) built into the mobo. Add HDD, processor, memory and it could be a nice MP3 server hooked to your TV, especially if you "have an IR reciever plopped off the serial port" as you said. Tivo-like system should be just as doable. I would like to see an LCD slapped on the front of it though. For the $250 MWave is charging, and say $250 more for the aforementioned components, this would make a nifty addition to an entertainment system. With the built-in NIC, it could also double as a MP3 playing, web-surfing, e-mail, instant messaging kiosk that you could access right from the couch.

Re:Use ideas

[Foochar]

To be "Tivo-like" you don't need just TV-Out you need TV-In. And half of what makes the tivo so cool is the service. I can tell it to record a show and I don't have to worry about them changing the night it is on, or running a long episode. Yeah, things like Bush deciding to give a press conference will still cause a problem but no more then it would a VCR.

Re:Use ideas

[MentlFlos]

yes, but for tivo like functionality you would also need video in... thus the use of the PCI slot :)

Re:Use ideas

[MentlFlos]

Yeah, thats why I said tivo like... it does lack the services.

Perhaps calling it a digial video recorder would be a more accurate term.

Re:Use ideas

[Riplakish]

Ooops! :)

I was so busy thinking how I wanted to put a Soundblaster card that supported Dolby into the one and only PCI slot in the damn thing, that I forgot you also needed TV-In for PVR, LOL.

Damn. Well the tradeoff seems to be PVR, or good sound for everything else.

Re:Use ideas

[SuperLiquidSex]

you could use either usb-digital sound, or usb tv capture cards, or firewire

Re:Use ideas

[mchang]

I'm feeling the wireless keyboard/touchpad combo calling to me with this setup. Throw in a Hollywood+ for _decent_ video playback, find a firewire video-input device and voila, quite the all-in-one.

Re:Use ideas

[unitron]

How good is the Tivo service? If a last minute change (news bulletin, late-running football game, etc) causes a network to time shift its evening schedule from 8:00-11:00 to 8:17:30-11:17:30, does it catch the change? If it was supposed to tape the 8:00-9:00 show and then change channels to catch a movie starting at 9:00, are you screwed, and in which direction?

Re:Use ideas

[t]

Spoken like someone who has never actually figured out how much bandwidth usb actually provides. If you had, you would realize how laugable the concept of a usb tv capture card is.

Re:Use ideas

[t]

I have some friends that were getting pissed off because the tivo would cut the last 3 minutes or so of a program because somewhere the clocks were off.

Re:Use ideas

[unitron]

That's what I was afraid of, he said, dangling a participle or preposition or something.

Re:Use ideas

[jfunk]

He also mentioned FireWire, which is great for video.

Re:Use ideas

[Anonymous Coward]

tivo only gets data nightly...
if a show is postponed because of an unexpected delay, it won't correct for it.
example... friends episode last week was delayed because of the president's tv conference, so when i went to play it back, i got him instead.

although u can force it to make an update call anytime you want, i don't think it would matter in a case like this.

as for start/end times, it has a few options for padding to help keep from getting this cut off... they use an overtime ballgame as an example.

tivo turns television content asynchronous, and quasi-marketing-free :)

Re:Use ideas

[kaimiike1970]

I hate this so much. However, a true geek would adapt by either:

setting the record options properly to run 3 mins longer or

extrapolating the final few moments based on the rest of the show.

Re:Use ideas

[kaimiike1970]

Now USB 2.0 on the other hand...

is 480 Mbits/sec or slightly faster than firewire.

Re:Use ideas

[t]

Correction, slightly faster than several year old firewire (the one currently available as a single chip solution). Whereas the new firewire is a good clip faster.

Re:Use ideas

[funky womble]

Bit lacking in the PDC department then... better just use a VCR if you want to be sure of catching things :)

Windows XP dumb terminal

[Mwongozi]

At the risk of being modded down for supporting Microsoft...

Windows XP has a thing called "remote desktop connection", which is a lot like remote X connections on Linux, except that things like sound and hardware ports are also brought across to the remote machine.

My home LAN has a fairly beefy PC on it running Windows XP Pro, and it would be really useful to have a few cheap and small PCs thrown about the house, which could connect back to the main PC in my bedroom and bring the desktop to wherever you are.

Right now I use a laptop with an 802.11b card in it to do that, but that's a seriously expensive solution.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[posmon]

except the version of rdc on xp pro limits you to one connection at a time and blanks out the screen of the host pc whilst you're doing it.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[MentlFlos]

So you mean like VNC, except slower and more expensive? :)

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Mwongozi]

except the version of rdc on xp pro limits you to one connection at a time and blanks out the screen of the host pc whilst you're doing it.

That's okay, there's only one of me. :)

I believe it allows one connection per user, I can't imagine ever wanting to have two desktops on the go at the same time.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Mwongozi]

So you mean like VNC, except slower and more expensive? :)

RDC is much faster than VNC on Windows, because:

• VNC isn't very good at working out which bits of the desktop have been redrawn (Or Windows isn't very good at telling it...)
• RDC gets the remote machine to draw widgets, with the host machine saying things like "Draw this widget here", rather than sending bitmaps for everything.

It also resizes your desktop to whatever resolution the remote machine is using, which is quite nice. VNC doesn't do sound or ports either.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[MentlFlos]

I stand corrected on the faster part then. I've had very limited experence with RDC due to my lack of a copy of terminal server :)

Sound wise this sounds backwards. Personally I would remote control the little box and have it play sounds and whatnot to my stereo. If it xfered its sound output to the box I was controling from then what good would it be sitting in my AV cabnet?

Or perhaps its just my lack of food speaking... I'm hungry.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[alen]

I've used both, and Win2000 Terminal Server beats VNC hands down. It's faster and has more features. You can set security, amount of connections, time limits on active and idle connections and a bunch of other features. I like it better than PC Anywhere too especially over dial up lines. PC Anywhere slows to a crawl and terminal server slows down only a little over dial up.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[MentlFlos]

Of course, I wouldn't expect users of X-Windows to know anything about "speed" anyway.

Fine, I'll bite.... I run 2k at home and linux at work. I see no differences in how fast windows are drawn, refreshed, or whatnot.

I will counter your trollosity by pointing out the wonderful feature of X windows where I can throw remote windows around with a simple command line argument. Its neat having 30 some-odd machines put their load monitors up on one desktop. Now go away or I shall turn you into a newt!

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[really?]

with the XP "client" you get to tell it what to do with the sound. I have a headless K6 "pizza box" that is my audio/video player - with a Hollywood+ for the DVD decoding.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Anonymous Coward]

Fine, I'll bite.... I run 2k at home and linux at work. I see no differences in how fast windows are drawn, refreshed, or whatnot.

Of course, it helps that your workstation at work is a 1 GHz Pentium III, while your home machine is a Celeron 500. But hey, hardware's cheap, isn't it?

I will counter your trollosity by pointing out the wonderful feature of X windows where I can throw remote windows around with a simple command line argument. Its neat having 30 some-odd machines put their load monitors up on one desktop.

True. But can't you do that with an X Server on Windows instead? That way, you can run thousands more applications than you can with Linux alone.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[havardi]

it would be really useful to have a few cheap and small PCs thrown about the house

Small and cheap? These are hardly the latter, especially for what you described. I setup a 486 50mhz laptop for my mom to access the internet, I put barebones Xwindows with Blackbox and have all the programs launch from my 1.2ghz athlon. Run's very quick indeed. I'd like to see you install WinXP on that and try to do the same thing :-p

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Locutus]

I will counter your trollosity by pointing out the wonderful feature of X windows where I can throw remote windows around with a simple command line argument. Its neat having 30 some-odd machines put their load monitors up on one desktop.

True. But can't you do that with an X Server on Windows instead? That way, you can run thousands more applications than you can with Linux alone.

Ahh, now we see what flutters in this guys head. Doh. Grasshopper, an X-Server is meerly a display server and only shows that which is generated elsewhere. Surely one could have an X-Server running on a MCWindows machine and have all those powerful Linux machines ( or Solaris, etc ) sending displays to it. But every MCWindows crash would require you to resend all those displays again.
You see, Grasshopper, how the power of the many can be maintained and controlled by the few in the *nix world. The power of the many in the MCWindows world requires many to maintain and control. ;/

LoB

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[skuenzli]

If you can, you might try to get some time at a workstation that supports multiple desktops, remote applications, etc. Once I got a taste, I couldn't figure out how I'd ever gotten along without it. I use Win2k Pro at work (software/systems engineer) which is bearable, but my main complaint is that I typically have 20 or more applicaions/windows open at a time and switching between them all (and screen real estate) becomes a pain because I can't break them up across virtual desktops (and switch between those). I've tried getting software to do the virtual desktop thing on Win2k, but it didn't work with my laptop docked in the station (blue screen -- oops).

My workstation at home is Mandrake 8 (with Mandrake 7 on the server) and it fits my style of working much better, which is to say it supports n parallel threads of execution whereas MS Windows really only supports one.

Stephen

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[vsync64]

Same with EsounD. When I'm in the mood, I run a really elegant setup where I run software across my 3 different (currently running; I've got a few more dormant ones :P) machines (running different OSen... do that with XP) all simultaneously piping their audio through my server box to connect to my speakers. Right now I'm just plugged straight from my laptop into the speakers, mainly because the only apps I've been running on my other machines of late have been CLI stuff with no audio. But where was I? Oh yeah. EsounD is cool.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[JakeS]

Nope, only one connection at all. I use it to access my Windows home machine from work, but if my girlfriend is logged in (under a different account), I must either wait or kick her off.

But if she happens to use my Linux box, I can run remote X apps or VNC without worries.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[radish]

I've used vern for virtual desktops on every PC I've used for a few years now, that covers 95/98/NT4/2K and now XP, on a variety of hardware. Give it a spin - not perfect but pretty good.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[kzanol]

Small and cheap?
Have a look at the Allwell Set-top boxes; from my experience these make VERY nice diskless terminals, although I haven't yet tried what XP does to them - only tried linux so far and quite happy with the result. Price ranges from $289 to $400 depending on configuration;
my box (300Mhz, 32MB Disk On a Chip Flash ROM, 2.5" IDE installation kit etc cost about $400).

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[mattACK]

I manage a lot of 2k servers and I almost never term into them. I do ALL of my maintenance and most troubleshooting through shell scripting, wmi, and perl. I dig *nix as well. Attack not that which you do not fully understand. Not all of us are stupid. Seriously.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[posmon]

i know this is going to sound far more pro ms than i want it to, but:

you don't need winxp as the client. rdc in winxp is just an enhanced AND neutered(!) terminal services server. the client software will run on any ms os back to 3.1. which would suit your 486 nicely.

with the terminal services advanced client you can even embed the client in a webpage, downloading the client for you when you first view it. i find it very useful at work, where i can get access to my own desktop from anywhere in the building using internet explorer.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[niall111]

well, XP requires 64 megs RAM minimum, and the install is about 1.3 gigs...

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows XP has built in terminal services support for future m$ products (in beta now). You can have multiple users on the same pc, this is why the login and process mangement also changed. XP shortly will be able to support multiple users at the same time.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[RedX]

well, XP requires 64 megs RAM minimum, and the install is about 1.3 gigs...

And, of course, since he'd be using these as a dumb terminal, the above requirements are irrelevant.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[bartle]

VNC isn't very good at working out which bits of the desktop have been redrawn (Or Windows isn't very good at telling it...)

Definately the latter. I spent some time trying to figure out how to get Windows to pass my program graphical updates to various windows rather than just updating the screen, it really isn't possible. The best you can do is constantly take snapshots of the windows, possibly keyed off of keyboard and mouse messages. But that only works in an interactive app, and it's no way to deal with something like a movie player. The only efficient solution I could come up with was to replace the gdi dlls with wrappers so I could intercept the information as it went through, but that's just stupid.

Of course, there must be a way to do all this efficiently because Microsoft is doing it. It's crap like this that is causing me to move towards free software, Microsoft has made it clear that their operating system will never be an equal playing field.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[mchang]

An alternative that I've been using that is small and fast is VirtuaWin [w1.457.telia.com/~u45706979/]

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[vrt3]

Just a wild guess, but wouldn't it be possible to install a hook to intercept WM_PAINT messages or something?

On a related note, is it true that PcAnywhere gets better performance than VNC?

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[mchang]

Something that I've been using instead of VNC lately when in the Windows world is Timbuktu Pro. It handles updates better than VNC and seems a bit more responsive. YMMV.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[bartle]

Just a wild guess, but wouldn't it be possible to install a hook to intercept WM_PAINT messages or something?

WM_PAINT is what programs like VNC currently use, at least as far as I can tell. I could intercept WM_PAINT messages, but that wouldn't get me anywhere; I'd just find out everytime another program requested a refresh. Whenever a program updates it's window, it calls the GDI layer and passes in information on the part of the window that's being updated. GDI is then responsible for doing all the necessary mapping so it gets painted correctly on the screen. No messages are passed during this process.

What I ideally needed was a way to tell GDI that my program would be handling all the updates for a given window, just pass them to me and don't worry about the screen. I suspect it's possible to do this, I bet all these Microsoft products do something similiar, but I was never able to find documentation on it. As I mentioned before, I could've written a wrapper around the dlls and intercepted these calls myself, but that's a foolish thing to do in Windows. So I gave up. Sending a WM_PAINT message seems to be the only way to get the contents of a window, but that was too inefficient for what I was trying to do.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows uses the same type of windowing pix cache as OSX. You would still need a lot of ram (128 for acceptable performance, minimum).

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Locutus]

ah, one mans experience makes up for a decade of expectations. As Bob would say, "I don't think so." Reboot.

LoB

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Locutus]

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't make fun of Microsoft since it's been only something like 20 years that they've been making operating systems. Who am I to poke fun of their history of heavy support costs? After all, they shipped a new OS called Windows 2000 and another soon to be called Windows XP. Surely these will are the solution of solutions and erase decades of memories.

NOT. Glad to hear you can keep your systems running and I surely don't think all Windows admins are stupid. I guess public forums must be written such that it applies to all who read. Dang, that's going to be hard to do. Seriously.

And boy, you folk are a sensitive bunch. It's usually been the other way around. What gives?

LoB

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[bored]

What I ideally needed was a way to tell GDI that my program would be handling all the updates for a given window, just pass them to me and don't worry about the screen. I suspect it's possible to do this, I bet all these Microsoft products do something similiar, but I was never able to find documentation on it.

That should be as simple as hooking the device context and redirecting it. I saw an example a while back (I think it might have been in the SDK) for hooking notepad and forcing it to draw in a window owned by a diffrent application. I think the problem with VNC is that they want a 'root' window hook that captures a global context for everything and the Windows GDI shortcuts the window parent/child relationship stuff that X does (part of the reason the M$ GDI is so fast) and clips each DC right to the frame buffer. Its just a case of someone thinking like a UNIX geek and trying to write a windows port.

PCanywhere is a good example of the fact that it can be done quickly without to much help from M$. Terminal server was originally written by Citrix. Citrix had M$ help though, I suspect most of the help was in the form of getting multiple User contexts working. In this regard terminal server is much more advanced than VNC on windows. In Unix though VNC is the X server for X clients which makes it behave like Terminal server.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[Nobody]

I've never tried this so ymmv but look on msdn under "ddml". Apparently this allows you to hook all the GDI calls at the DDI level.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[bartle]

Thanks for the info. It looks like DDML is a display layer that was implemented for Windows 2000, it looks pretty cool. If it's also implemented in XP, I may be able to restart my experiments.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[MentlFlos]

Of course, it helps that your workstation at work is a 1 GHz Pentium III, while your home machine is a Celeron 500. But hey, hardware's cheap, isn't it?

Hardware is cheap, this is true. That is why the two machines in question are both quite nice (win box is a 1.33 tbird, linux box is a dual pIII 933). The windows box is even at a slight disadvantage in that it only has 512meg ram vs the 1g in the linux box. If anything that part speaks well of MS.

True. But can't you do that with an X Server on Windows instead? That way, you can run thousands more applications than you can with Linux alone.

Wait, so you are telling me that I can take my windows box and display its apps on my linux box? BZZZZT, Wrong answer. An X Server just displays what is thrown at it. Its actually kinda backwards in that the server sits and displays while the client does the work.

Try again troll-man... or you could grow a set and actually log in. :)

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[serial frame]

Wait, so you are telling me that I can take my windows box and display its apps on my linux box?

Not your parent post, but I sure as hell am. A cool project on Freshmeat I found a few days ago: http://freshmeat.net/projectx/xwinx/

Have fun. It works well enough for me. It does not use VNC or anything at all--It connects to any X Window server, and displays your Windows desktop. Very nifty.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[jfunk]

Windows XP has a thing called "remote desktop connection", which is a lot like remote X connections on Linux, except that things like sound and hardware ports are also brought across to the remote machine.

Ever hear of a 'sound daemon'?

It's not a new concept. There are dedicated X-terminals out there that support sound. KDE 2.x uses Artsd and GNOME uses Esd. They work quite well, AFAIK.

As for the 'hardware ports', what exactly do you mean? How else *could* it work? If I'm running an X session and I print in an application under it, it will use whatever system is on the box I'm running the program on.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[ThatComputerGuy]

Wait a minute, I thought any system with XP was already dumb enough!

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[posmon]

you've tried it then? why not have a look here [microsoft.com] for the recommended configuration. i think you'll find that 16-32 megs should offer perfectly reasonable performance.

i think it's quite clear why you chose to be anonymous, rather than put your name to that comment.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[posmon]

i think he means the printer redirection feature, where if you print from a remote application it is redirected to the local printer on the client machine.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal

[mattACK]

I don't have a website to air my complaints. I do have many complaints about NT/2K whatever. I will not, however, use your invitation to troll as such.

Anyhow, I bet you that I have more *nix servers than you too...*wink*

nifty!!!

[TheMMaster]

It's a nice peice of equipment, but not competition for my iPaq... I hate to have this in my pocket all day...

(sorry this is meant as a serious remark) would be nice as a cluster node don't you think??

Nice legs shame about the face

[sh0rtie]

If this was put in an attractive case and the crap hidden it could give the apple cube a run for its money

unfortunatly it looks like ass
did someone say "design" ?

Re:Nice legs shame about the face

[SlamMan]

I'd say it has a fairly good chance of beating out the Apple cube, since Apple EOL'd that about 5 months ago.

LCD display for added fun

[Boiotos]

That hd bay could also be used for a Matrix Orbital PC Bay Insert LCD display if you think this would make a great component for a linux stereo or video system. MO inludes a page of customer hacks whose content should further inspire your digital muse.

Can you say...

[OblongPlatypus]

LAN Party?

Re:Can you say...

[Milican]

Well it would be cool, but the video chipset is a Savage4. As you know not the most competitive 3D chipset. Now if this was with the integrated nVidia chipset I would defnitely say "LAN Party".

JOhn

Re:Can you say...

[the_2nd_coming]

no because you would get crappy FPS and 3d from the Hardware so wI will still be lugging my full tower and perifs to my buddies house.

Re:Can you say...

[Anonymous Coward]

No

Re:Can you say...

[OblongPlatypus]

So stick a GeForce in the PCI slot, and you're good to go. Of course, you won't be able to both the LAN Party thing and this thing at the same time, but you could always keep switching PCI cards according to your needs. I agree it's too bad they didn't make all the integrated components top-notch, but I suspect that would've made the price a bit prohibitive...

Re:Can you say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pourquoi pas? Est-ce que vous ne parlez pas angalis?

Va t'faire enculer chez le Linux, peut-être.

Re:Can you say...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they made it with the new nVidia nForce motherboard chipset then it would be a nearly perfect mini system. But still at $250 its not bad..

GLove Box PC?

[Mac Nazgul]

Taking a quick look at the pictures from the review, it looks like that would make a great "Glove Box PC" for true mobile MP3 playing, etc.

Intergrate a 15" LCD into your center console and remove the factory glove box and mount that thing in the space left over! Now your passeneger can run pedestrians over in Carmageddon while you drive!

Just a thought...

Re:GLove Box PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a recommendation on a CHEAP (probably small, 4-6 inch) LCD that works well for a "glove box" PC?

I see prices around the $150 range. Not to be flamebait (in addition to offtopic), but how can I do 960x234 reso (which seems to be common with these displays) in Windows by using the onboard video on this mobo? Is it even possible, or would I have to buy a video card that supported it?

Thanks

Re:Cool, my hardware on slashdot!

[Jedi Alec]

So you are actually willing to admit having developed a chipset that contains a Savage 4? Wow, no wonder you're anonymous....

DIY dvd player anyone?

[Diabolical]

Damn.. if it only had a 5.1 audio output i could build myself a nice DIY dvd player. Easy to upgrade (software). Of course it would have to run Linux because i don't want bsod's on my screen...

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[OblongPlatypus]

Easy.. just stick a soundblaster in there.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[GoofyBoy]

I was thinking the same thing.

Use the 5 inch bay for a DVD Rom, PCI with a good sound card, pray that the Savage w/32meg can provide decent playback, and you already have the TV out...

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[jdgreen7]

If it had 2 5 1/4 ports, you could buy the SoundBlaster 5.1 Platinum that comes with the IR controller. It has a 5 1/4 panel that connects on the front for more audio inputs/outputs, and the IR receiver. Then, you could add the DVD player in the 2nd port. I suppose you could get an external DVD player, but then it loses it's portability some.

One good possibility I see: Get the SoundBlaster 5.1 w/ the remote. Run CAT5 into your living room (or wireless LAN), and network it to your other computer. Hook up this system to your TV and Stereo. Now, you can play MP3's over then network through your stereo, and play downloaded movies. Doesn't help DVD ability unless you could find a way to play a DVD over your LAN from another system... interesting possibility...? It would get annoying running to another room to switch DVD's, but how often do you watch more than 1 at a time?

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Xoro]

Yeah, I'd love to see a tiny sized board based on the nForce chipset. GeForce graphics, 5.1 audio, AMD cpu...mmmmm.

There's been an emerging form factor in the SBC (Single Board Computer) world recently, known as EBX. It's a 5.75" x 8.00" board built to be racked, stacked and expanded. They even have tiny pci cards (pc/104-plus). I'd love to see more consumer PCs based on these specs (especially an nForce one!). Great for those PCs you've always wanted to scatter around the house.

Plus, you could case-mod your old Star Wars lunch box.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[brunes69]

Question... Why would you spend 5x the cost of a store bought DVD player to build on yourself that s largr, uses more power, looks worse, and (without the 5.1 audio) sounds worse ?

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

why? because you're a fuckwit that would use a george foreman grill as a dildo if it ran linux.

--

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

This could also be nice as an anything on a Disc playback device. DVD, VCD, SVCD, XVCD, DivX, Audio CDs, and MP3 CDs. The UI could be a problem, but for this much capability, I would run linux with a wireless keyboard/mouse combo.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[wholesomegrits]

Get a $98 cheapo Apex DVD player from Walmart. They play *everything* except DiVX, and that includes CD-Rs or CD-RWs with mp3s on them.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, I would have considered posting this myself, but it's anonymous because I know it'll get modded down:

Why is anyone on here recommending the Soundblaster line of cards? In my opinion, there are so many better (and true, there are so many more worse) options out there!!!

Just try to play a DVD stream (audio) 48khz out of an older SB64 (and no, I know it's older, but I'm not about to lay down 200$ of my hard earned spank for a card from a company that couldn't get 48khz right on a fairly decent card in it's day)...

Now, Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.. pair that with a good receiver or a set of the Klipsch ProMedias... you'll be amazed.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Crouton]

I believe the answer you are looking for is, "Because you can."

The same question could be asked of people who port Linux to C64s, or make a game boy in to a spectrum analyzer. The question is not why, certainly there are prepackaged way of doing this sort of thing that might be(are) cheaper, but its the fun of doing it that is the point.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Crouton]

But where is the fun in that? Besides if you do hack it in to a DVD player of some sort, it'd at least be good for a story.
The case seems kind of plain, you could always "customize" the paint job a little too..

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

For a crouton, you are clever at digging deep into the Linux zealout psyche.

No, there is no fun in pure, easy, functionality. No spools of CAT 5 to fuck with, no surge protectors, just three cords and a CD.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[mchang]

Hollywood+. Works with remote as well. Have it set up in my living room with a regular-sized PC and it works well. I use it in addition to my regular standalone DVD player because it will play CDRs with VCD/SVCD/MP3/MPG stuff on 'em as well.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Anonymous Crouton]

Thank you... I think? I like Zealots, though they tend to be the more annoying type of psycho to hang out with IMNSHO. But they tend to be amusing at the very least, especially when they find someone like me who sits on the fence and watches the OS war at arms length. I've met windows Zealots too.. They're an odd bunch.. But I digress.. Thanks for the compliment.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[homer_ca]

Not only that check out Divxplus. It's a divx player that outputs through the TV-out on your Hollywood+ card. It still does software decoding, but it saves you from needing an extra TV-out for Divx.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[Shrubbman]

or just leave the case open and stack the Live! Drive on top :'>

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[default luser]

Maybe because Apex DVD players don't PLAY DVDs. I'd describe it as more of a drunken attempt at pissing itself. I took the Apex back and got a real DVD player.

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[toren]

I use a PC to play DVDs on my home entertainment system, even though I have (uhh...) three other consumer DVD players hooked up to the system.

The advantage? A properly configured PC connected to a decent (i.e. VGA compatible) output device (like a projector) will have features that a cheap consumer deck doesn't. My PC outputs a sharper signal than NTSC, gets the full resolution out of anamorphic widescreen discs, and displays noninterlaced progressive-scan frames at 72fps, 3x the 24fps source. The result, when combined with a nice projector, is amazingly film-like. Oh -- and I do get 5.1 audio out of my sound card, which would fit in the PCI slot of the machine in question.

To get these features, you can either spend serious $$$ on a consumer player that supports progressive-scan and component output plus a line-doubler. Or, you can run WinDVD on a $600 PC.

-tbone

Re:DIY dvd player anyone?

[wholesomegrits]

Sounds like a user error. Did you place the DVD in the tray with the painted side facing up?

Lan Party anyone?

[fohat]

On the down side the board has no AGP slot. The review suggests that this is livable, but I disagree. I wonder if you could retrofit the machine with a better graphics card using the PCI slot and disable the onboard graphics? I've done this with older HP vectra's when their onboard video chips go out... I do like the idea of being able to have a fairly high speed system which can be easily concealed and the design seems fairly well thought out...

Re:Lan Party anyone?

[geekoid]

Its not really designed for upgradeability.
Its also not really designed as a game machine, but that hve to toss that in there to appease there core readership.
There are many great applications for this box.
I might get one, just to have cheap connectivity from my garage.

Stereo Component?

[wiredog]

S-video has nothing to do with stereo. It's a video connector. Thing might make a nice pvr, if the case was painted. Or hidden in a closet. Ye Gods it's ugly.

Re:Cool, my hardware on slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

The embedded Savage4 costs less than 10 bucks and performs more or less like a 1st generation GeForce. Please, check your facts.
Sincerely, Mike Bouma

ROBERT FROST

[Anonymous Coward]

was here?

Re:ROBERT FROST

[Anonymous Coward]

No...but close. You have the two confused. It was Antoine Saint-Exupery who was here. Frost was over at Kuro5hin.

not as cool..

[lupetto]

not as cool as the cobalt cube. Nothing beats it. wewp!

Cool.....sort of.

[the_2nd_coming]

at first I thought..."WOW this would be the coolest Mobo to design a case for and use at home, but then I saw the performance and is sucked....they have the fire wire which is cool since Mobo makers need to integrae Firewire, but how are you going to use it productivly with such a low mem bandwidth? if they went DDR (as the article suggests) it would be much better.
Do you think Linux would have any issues with this eq?..I mean it is very exotic.

work usage

[motherfuckin_spork]

I was thinking the same thing... the process rooms I work in don't have a lot of extra space, but we need various data loggers to monitor what's going on... something like this little box would enable me to not only watch what's going on, but also to do some number crunching and spew the data off to a server pretty easily. (I currently use a Fluke data logger - not exacly high-tech).

Re:work usage

[kzanol]

we need various data loggers to monitor what's going on
Have you looked at the GCT Allwell boxes yet? Really neat box, NO fans => completely silent. Different sizes of flash memory (or ide disks if you need more space) for OS/applications are available. Only downside is that the fastetest CPU you can get is 300Mhz - slow by todays standards but easily sufficient for lots of aplications.
Also important: not at all expensive; most very small / embedded systems turn out to be unreasonably expensive, this one costs about $289 - $400 depending on options.
I'm running one of these as firewall/VPN Box for my home network:

• Linux 2.4 kernel
• Squid proxy
• iptables firewall
• ipsec and ms pptp VPN server
• NTP server (stratum 1, got serial DCF77 receiver)
• Boa web server (for access to squid cachemgr and serving code red/nimda antidote scripts)
• ssh server + client stuff

All of this runs from an 8M DOC (Disk On a Chip) Flash memory (plenty space still free)- no moving parts at all.

Re:work usage

[motherfuckin_spork]

I'll have to check that out further... those actually cost less than the new data loggers (yokogawa's, with built-in ethernet connection)... this would definitely allow me to put a workstation in the process room, and the lack-of-heat bit is very good.

Then I'd just have to get some sort of server to store all the process data...

Irony

[ehud42]

At the risk of being redundant, does anyone else find it amusing that this great little PC complete with relatively new technology is fitted with a 5.25" drive?

I understand the need for proven technology in critical environments like the shuttle, but surely the improved storage capacity and reduced physical size of at least a 3.5" drive would be worth it. Given that 3.5" drives are virtually museum fodder, they should be almost ready for NASA's use.

Re:Irony

[Mastagunna]

Lets see you fit your DVD drive in a 3.5" bay, I would give you a million bucks if you could.

Re:Irony

[hexx]

Lets see you fit your DVD drive in a 3.5" bay, I would give you a million bucks if you could.

Really? Umm... does my DVD drive have to *function* after I squeeze it into the 3.5" bay?
I have a hammer and a lotta glue...

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

A million bucks eh?

Hmmm...that's enough to buy a new DVD drive to replace the one I smashed to fit it into a 3.5" bay with a fair bit left over to buy beer with.

I think I'll take you up on your offer, where do you want the photo of the DVD drive in a 3.5" bay sent to for verification?

Noise level?

[larien]

Anyone know how noisy (or quiet) these are? With only one fan, I'd expect it to be pretty good.

Reason I ask is that I'm looking to get ADSL soon (on order, actually) and I'd like to run a linux box as gateway/router/firewall on the ADSL and this looks ideal provided it's quiet enough.

Re:Noise level?

[XBL]

I built myself a FlexATX system a while back. I did this for a little server/firewall.

Usually small power supplies like this are quiet, get a low RPM fan for maybe a Celeron CPU, and a quiet hard drive like an IBM, it should be good enough.

Re:Noise level?

[Mannerism]

If you want a really quiet Linux firewall, try using ThinLinux on a 486. No fans and no hard drive required. Look here for more info.

Re:Noise level?

[Anonymous Coward]

If used with a VIA C3 processor, it could be ran without a fan. Thus making it fairly quiet.

Re:Noise level?

[fobbman]

Uh, there may be a reason why that IBM drive is so quiet.

Re:Noise level?

[_ph1ux_]

I DONT KNOW WHY YOU ARE THAT WORRIED ABOUT SOUND ON YOUR FIREWALL... IM RUNNING 6 MACHINES, 2 ROUTERS AND 2 SWITCHES IN MY ROOM - AND IT DOESNT SEEM THAT NOISEY. I CANT IMAGINE THAT THAT PUNY LITTLE THING COULD BE TOO MUCH OF A WORRY WHEN IT COMES TO SOUND.

Re:Noise level?

[larien]

I'm worried about sound because this would be on 24/7, unlike the noisy stuff in my room that I can switch off. :)

Re:Noise level?

[_ph1ux_]

ummm - I was joking. ;) notice the yelling?

Re:Cool, my hardware on slashdot!

[connorbd]

Actually, I thought of something similar but more generalized -- APS Tech used to (probably still does) sell a double SCSI case which I most vividly remember combining a Jaz drive with a CD burner. It was probably roughly the same style case as you're referring to.

See, I saw the headline and I was thinking some kind of half-pizza deal -- something small, slick, and preferably black. I like the concept, but the design doesn't work.

/Brian

Just one question...

[dsfox]

Where can I get one??

Read, fool, read!

[SlamMan]

Thats a 5.25" bay. You know, the size that cd and dvd drive get put into? Yeesh.

Neat, but...

[A_Non_Moose]

I wonder if it is just me, but I *want* expansion, I *want* a big, bad, beige case.

I suppose if this unit could be attached to another of its ilk, it would be what(?) 6U's?
Rack mountable, maybe? Would be interesting.

The most expandable case I'd ever seen could hold 13 (or maybe 15) drives in a mid tower.
This box looks like you could fit 5 in there max...not bad for such a tiny case. Admittadly it would take some very creative engineering and the heat generated in such a small area would require removing the front plate and 3 fans from a drive cooler.

It has potential, I'll give it that, but the lack of PCI slots...ugh, my aptiva has only 2 pci slots ...arugh! 3, IMO, is the bare min, but the niche for this box is the limited space catagory.

I like it, personally. It's cute, it functions and it'll do whatever I need/want it to do, I'm sure. But, save one thing: Expandability (ok, internally).

Could I put a GF3 in it? Nope.
Could I put an IDE Raid card in it...Yeah, but where the hell would the drives go?

I dunno...its the "cube" arguments all over again.

It has form, it has function, but face it (this is /. after all) the "chubby/kickass" factor ain't there, IMO.

Moose

Re:Neat, but...

[SlamMan]

But not everybody need expansion. WE've got a cube by our CIO's desk. He doesn't need expansion, he needs more desk space, and having something cool looking's nice also. Not every one needs raid cards and all the slots we love.

Re:Neat, but...

[egomaniac]

What I want to do with a device like this is use it as a game console. Load MAME and a bunch of other emulators on it, download 34 gigs of roms, and sit it next to my GameCube and Dreamcast.

The S-Video output makes it absolutely perfect for this sort of usage (although I agree it is pretty ugly...).

Re:Neat, but...

[geekoid]

Not for you, and thats fine.
But there are a great many people who could get a PC, take up little space, inexpensive, and doesn't need a bunch of cards.
This would be a great machine for 'grand-ma'.
easy for you to maintain, small foot prin for her, and most importantly, not as intemidating. Yes a great many people find large metal boxes, doing stuff they don't understand itemidating.almost as intemidating a my spelling.

Shuttle HOT-591p and 256 Meg RAM - possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got a Shuttle HOT-591p motherboard with one 128Meg stick of pc100 RAM and I've been trying to get it to work with another 128Meg stick of pc100 ram to bring the total up to 256Megs, but with no success. Each stick of RAM is good when tested alone, but when I put the two together it does not recognize the new RAM - the machine only recognizes 128 Megs of RAM as if the second 168pin slot is always ignored. I've tried all jumper setting conbinations for JA25 and JP9 with no luck. I don't see anything in the BIOS settings that can help me - the RAM setting appears to be read only. I am using a 350 MHz AMD K6 3d. Any ideas?

Re:Shuttle HOT-591p and 256 Meg RAM - possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

This has nothing to do with that board in particular. It's true of all boards (well, at least to my knowledge). Sometimes you can't have sticks of RAM by different manufacturers in there at once. Have two sticks by the same manufacturer and it should work fine. I dunno why, but I've seen this said pretty often.

svideo out

[techno-at-nni.com]

When I used svideo out before you needed a monitor to see what was on the screen before windows loaded.. after that you could select svideo out and let the display appear on the screen.. the only thing is, would i have to setup/install the machine on a normal monitor first then connect to a tv or vcr? in other words, can I just use the svideo out? or do I still need a monitor for reboots and such? would be nice if I only needed the tv for output, no need for a monitor at all..

Re:svideo out

[CoffeeJedi]

i think it depends on the v-card, my rage fury pro worked just fine when i plugged in my tv and booted into win2k, i didn't have a monitor installed and i didn't tell the card that it would be using s-video, it just detected it somehow (who knew the tv would send back an "i am here" through s-video...) so i'm assuming the savage-4 can do this as well

Re:svideo out

[Kymermosst]

who knew the tv would send back an "i am here" through s-video...

It doesn't. The board detects current draw from the S-video output once the electrical connection is made.

Computer in a duffle bag...

[BluePenguin]

I have to say this is a feature I can actually dig. With the S-Video out I might actually be able to take my computer with me on the road. Yeah laptops are available, but when going to Anime Cons... nothing beats being able to snag Bandai's latest release on DVD and throw it up at your room party that night. "Cowboy Bebop: Knockin on Heaven's Door anyone? Come to my room party!".

Honestly I think this is a good middle ground for portability. When you want a computer you can haul about anywhere but don't require the ability to actually use it when you're in transit it beats the heck out of a laptop.

It might also be a good platform for some presentations. I know when I'm doing premier demos, I'm working with a computer + projector on either RGB or S-Video... this would be an easy box to throw on a desktop at home and bring to any site for a demo. (At least for the Poor College Student doing demos to college clubs and user groups!)

:q!

Re:Computer in a duffle bag...

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent movie that Cowboy Bebop movie is. Glad I got it a week ago.

Cluster?

[Viceice]

Well it'd be perfect to cluster, it's take up less space so you can put the cluster of them on a shelf instead of a room...

Home management / automation

[aegilops]

Consider its use as a home device management "brain". A gadget doesn't have to look smart or pretty, or have particular high throughput - it just needs to have the right I/O and never go wrong.

Consider this: you arrive at work, and ask yourself "Did I lock the front door?" Well, by using simple devices like this, wired in to your home security system (which, of course, we all have) you could find out. How about - the 'fridge door hasn't shut properly, and now your Jolt Colas (or whatever) are getting too warm. Better send an alarm (SNMP...) to you - while you're at work. Someone rings the front door bell at your house, and your webcam above the door switches on, streams video to your PC at work (naturally, as blessed by your local Firewall obergruppenfuhrer) for you to either remotely unlock the front door, or for you to choose to ignore it, and finally, schedule a random light activation pattern for when you go on holiday.

OK, this device isn't really all about these developments, but simple, I/O enabled boxes, which are ready to go through a web interface, can SNMP on to your domestic home appliances, and are secure enough would represent a good market. They don't have to look all that sexy, but just be cheap and functional, and WORK.

Two parenthetical comments in closing, however:

1) I don't expect for a second that all those white goods manufacturers will agree to an open standard, and we'll end up with a plethora of separate boxes controlling different sub-systems at home (a bit like any control panel near the computer room), and
2) Am I really that forgetful when I leave the house? Hey - now did I lock the car door...

Aegilops

Re:Home management / automation

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to check out the Mr. House project of Sourceforge. It's based on perl, and can do just about everything you mentioned, and a load more. It's very modulized, somewhat efficient on the CPU, has web interface, etc. I haven't used it yet, but it looks really interestering. Works with X10 modules, etc.

Re:Home management / automation

[Shoten]

OK, this device isn't really all about these developments, but simple, I/O enabled boxes, which are ready to go through a web interface, can SNMP on to your domestic home appliances, and are secure enough would represent a good market. /

SNMP to appliances? You're kidding, right? While I have to agree that the notion of centralizing management of home-based gadgets with computers is appealing, I think it's important to realize that this box means very little towards reaching that goal. It's only benefit is being small. It doesn't give you the ability to talk to your toaster, and no computer, no matter HOW radically cool, can. The problem is that the home isn't ready to talk to the computer yet. And in all truth, the thought of an SNMP-enabled home truly scares the hell out of me...do you know how unsafe SNMP really is from a security standpoint? :)

All other things aside, I'd use one of these as others have said...an MP3 server by the stereo, a simple centralized file server of some sort, or an email terminal in the kitchen. But it's just a small computer, really...nothing more special than that.

Re:Cool, my hardware on slashdot!

[Jedi Alec]

I used to have a Savage 4. Did anybody mention there aren't any good drivers for Win2000, or to please the zealots, for Linux?

That's NOTHING, check out EZGo

[oli_freyr]

This is basically just a shrunken desktop computer.
The EZGo is the size of four CD cases stacked on top of each other. I didn't compare the specs, but the EZGo has enough.

Check out the Taiwanese manufacturer, a product page at directron or a review at Ars Technica.

Best of all. It supposedly runs Linux!

(I probably should mention that I have nothing to do with this product. I just saw it a while ago and thought I should mention it.)

Re:That's NOTHING, check out EZGo

[Anonymous Coward]

(I probably should mention that I have nothing to do with this product. I just saw it a while ago and thought I should mention it.)

Thank god...with such a sycophant mofo raving incoherently about it, I'd not touch the fucker with a ten foot pole if you had anything to do with it.

Re:That's NOTHING, check out EZGo

[spudnic]

This is basically just a shrunken desktop computer.

That's what makes it so cool. It's pretty small, yet you still have an open PCI slot and it uses a standard 3 1/2" hard drive. The drive is the biggest selling point for me. The box you mentioned is cool, but it will only accept a 2 1/2" hard drive. Those drives are too expensive and don't have nearly the storage capacity as a standard ATA100 drive.

I'm looking for a box to carry along with me to client sites. While there, I can plug into their LAN and have my samba box with everything I need on it, or even for making backups of machines on their network. Get this baby, stick in a 100Gig drive and you're set.

Try this case from Yeong Yang

[Uggy]

I like THIS case. It'll fit a normal micro ATX MB and you're not confined to special low profile cards, or limited expansion slots. And it looks a helluva lot better than that shit above.

The Smallest

Re:Try this case from Yeong Yang

[hattig]

Agreed. I will install a microATX nForce board in that case instead, and get ultimate power with expandability. That case doesn't look like a dog either. Front-facing headphone sockets would be nice, however, but it has the front-facing USB ports.

Nearly there

[hattig]

When will a manufacturer release a fully integrated, but tiny, motherboard that supports Athlons and Durons eh? I.e., a performance micro-motherboard.

Using the nForce, but like the motherboard in this box only having 1 PCI and no AGP, I am sure you could make an even more compact design, or have room for 2 PCI slots (one for a low profile card perhaps). All you need to replicate the functionality of this box is an on-board Firewire connector. The audio will be 5.1 channel dolby, the video will be GeForce 2 MX, and the network will be high performance as well (compared with Realtek).

Yes, I know that this solution will be requiring a slightly beefier power supply - until the 0.13u Athlons come out, of course...

I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[krafter]

I bought the FV24 motherboard a few months ago. It is truly an amazing little board with tons of features packed into it.

I planned on using the motherboard to create a mp3 player I could put in my stereo rack. I put a 60gig ATA100 drive in the machine, a 466 Celeron and 256mb of memory. I didn't add any cards to the machine because everything I needed was on the motherboard.

I also had a USB audio device from Onkyo, the SE-U55, which I was going to use so that I could connect the output to the optical input on my receiver.

I installed Win2k on the machine, I know because of that I won't get much sympathy here on slashdot.

The first problem I had was that the sound coming out of the onboard audio device was garbage. Mp3s played fine but sounded distorted. I tried many other sources of audio and everything was coming out distorted.

I figured it was just bad on board audio so I switched to the USB audio device and it also sounded distorted.

I then tested everything using my Compaq E500 laptop and it sounded great so I knew it was the hardware.

I did some research and found that the southbridge on the motherboard was in the family of VIA chipsets that seemed to be causing problems for other people. I tried new drivers and every hint I could find online but nothing seemed to work.

I bought a different motherboard with a non-via chipset and everything has been great since. I miss the small size of the FV24 but I don't miss the unusable audio.

Chris (krafter@zilla.net)

Re:I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[dsfox]

I have one on order for a similar purpose. I figure no motherboard has really high fidelity audio on-board anyway, so if it gives me any trouble I'll stick something in the PCI slot.

Re:I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[krafter]

I regret not trying that myself but the only audio card I have is an old SoundBlaster Live and I know they can have trouble with that same VIA southbridge.

I considered buying a USB card and connecting my USB Audio device to that to avoid the buggy southbridge but then I would have a card plugged in and I wanted to have something with a low profile. Plus it just seemed wrong to plug in a card to compensate for something that was caused by a bad chipset.

Chris (krafter@zilla.net)

Re:I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[linzeal]

Buy a cheap aureal sound card for less than 20 bucks shipped. Go to Pricewatch and check them out.

Re:I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[jcoleman]

From the Onkyo SE-U55 FAQ:

Q: The sound skips in PCs that have a lot of memory.
A: The sound may skip on PCs that have a lot of memory installed, due to the limitations of the memory management function of Windows 98. There is no problem with up to 128MB of memory. With more memory, some PCs may experience this problem. Reduce the memory to 128MB or less and check whether the problem persists.

Re:I bought the motherboard, then sent it back.

[Shrubbman]

that's nice, except that he said he was running 2k, not 98.

Use S-video to show the UI

[yerricde]

S-video has nothing to do with stereo. It's a video connector.

S-video means that the thing can display its user interface on the living room TV rather than some LCD or vacuum fluorescent front panel. It also means you can use Winamp visualizations. And no, this box wouldn't look all that out of place next to a GameCube console.

Finally! Will fit under the seat of my car

[Erich]

I've been waiting for a while for a decent case/mobo that will fit reasonably well under the seat of my car. With an inverter plugged into the cigarette lighter, a tape adapter into my car's stereo unit, and a microphone mounted in the roof fabric, a little IBM ViaVoice and some scripting magic my car word-recognition-activated car mp3 player will once again live!

I did this once before with just a computer that sat in the foot well and used festival and a word recognition engine (which interpreted words incorrectly most of the time) called ears. Sitting the box in the footwell was unacceptable, but I think the concept works well. Certainly voice activation is the way to go.

Onboard sound, ethernet, and video... you don't need anything besides some media and some ram!

Linux Support

[jsin]

Anyone know how well this works with Redhat? I'd like to pick one up to play with but it would suck to get it home and find out that the built-in video won't run X or something equally lame.

Re:Linux Support

[hattig]

It is just a standard VIA integrated PIII/C3 chipset, with Savage 4 video. Linux/X/etc will run fine. Dunno about the Firewire though, I assume that Linux has Lucent Firewire drivers... To be honest, it is a sucky performer graphically, audiowise and so on. Fine for a fancy alarm clock/mp3 player I suppose. I want performance mini-systems...

Re:Linux Support

[Sinistar2k]

I have one of the FV24's powering my OGG jukebox, running RH7.1 and Apache. Everything works great except the FireWire. Couldn't get Kudzu to auto-detect it, but also have no use for it, so I haven't dug into getting it working.

I've had no problems with the other components, though (somebody mentioned they had audio distortion problems under Win2K, but I didn't run into that at all in Linux).

Re:Linux Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Were you able to get TVOUT (SVideo) to work?

Matt

TV on FireWire/USB

[Xoro]

I'd love to see the TV tuner coming in on that FireWire, rather than as a card. Then you could move it from box to box, as you like. I noticed ATI is selling the ATI TV-Wonder for USB but it only has 320 x 200 or so resolution. I wonder if they'll upgrade it to FireWire.

Re:TV on FireWire/USB

[saintlupus]

I'd love to see the TV tuner coming in on that FireWire, rather than as a card. Then you could move it from box to box, as you like. I noticed ATI is selling the ATI TV-Wonder for USB but it only has 320 x 200 or so resolution. I wonder if they'll upgrade it to FireWire.

Sony has a couple of boxes for importing video via FireWire. I don't know about Linux support, but we use them here on iMacs to bring in video from Laserdisks and VCRs with no problem.

--saint

Re:TV on FireWire/USB

[t]

I assume you're talking about the Sony DVMC-DA2 ($400)? If so, are you getting full screen, full rate DV out of it?

Re:TV on FireWire/USB

[saintlupus]

I assume you're talking about the Sony DVMC-DA2 ($400)? If so, are you getting full screen, full rate DV out of it?

That's the one. I don't have a whole lot of hands on experience with it (I work for the ITS dept at a college, and the Media Center handles most of the goodies like this), but I know it's a very nice box for importing and translation. For instance, we were using it with a VCR and a Superdrive on a G4 to copy old VHS tapes onto DVDs for faculty members.

Worked beautifully, if one ignores the fact that this really highlights the poor picture quality of tape. It's sort of like the first time I heard CDs rather than cassettes on a decent stereo system.

--saint

editor anyone?

[tdye]

Is it just me, or has VIAHardware fired all the editors and disabled grammar/spell checking on their word processors?

"...opening up the case for maintenance is much simpler and don't require the use of tools."

"Let's take a peak inside..."

And my favorite on page one (I didn't bother with page two):

"Due to the small size of the case, everything inside is cramped in, thus making it impossible to install better cooling, this isn't exactly a negative point, since it is an OEM barebones system, and the lesser the cooling components, the quieter the system runs. "

It's hard to take a review seriously when the writer sounds suspiciously like he's failing 9th grade English.

Re:editor anyone?

[Sturm]

As much as I like Tom's reviews, VIAHardware could still give Tom's Hardware a few grammar pointers. I think maybe Tom's articles are run through the 'Fish :)
I guess we shouldn't knock these guys... Hardware gurus they may be, but English majors, they ain't.

Re:editor anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

You bigot! Those fucking krauts at Tom's Hardware are good shit.

So there.

--

Re:editor anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean? They are all official graduates of the "Slashdot School of Editing". Everyone at VIAHardware was personally trained by Taco and Hemos in the latest editorial spelling and grammar techniques. Just ask Aragon.

Re:editor anyone?

[geekoid]

and yet, you still read /.
;)

Re:editor anyone?

[sheriff_p]

What's wrong with: "Let's take a peak inside..."?

The only thing I can think of is that you're getting upset by "let's", which, as it's short for "let us", seems a little odd... still...

Re:editor anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with: "Let's take a peak inside..."? The only thing I can think of is that you're getting upset by "let's", which, as it's short for "let us", seems a little odd... still...

PEEK, not peak, jeeez!

Re:editor anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's peek, not peak. peak = high point, maximum. peek = see.

Is this guy serious?!

[Mac Nazgul]

Is this guy actually think that they put a 5.25" floppy drive in this PC?!
Apple dropped the 3.5" years ago and now even Intel is pushing to have legacy PC components phased out (incuding the 3.5" floppy drive).
For this guys information, they are talking about a 5.25 BAY, for expansion.
But I guess that is what makes us human, we all jump to conclusions without actually researching our opinion. That is probably why we are so good at killing each other.

With integrated AC97 audio, no way.

[Anonymous Coward]

With a cheapo AC97-compliant audio chip in there, I can't imagine using this as a stereo component. If it's like most MB-integrated audio setups, output is going to be rather low fidelity and full of RF noise. On top of that, I'd be plugging it into a digital receiver where analog inputs have to go through an ADC - further killing sound quality.

Personally, I'm still waiting for a PC/104 size board with fully digital audio and SPDIF out before I build a stereo component.

Re:With integrated AC97 audio, no way.

[dwk123]

What's the problem? Drop a better sound card in the PCI slot, and off you go. With SB Live's running $30, it's hardly a problem, and with the integration you don't need the slot for anything else. The problem with something like a PC/104 custom component is that it probably won't have the volume to compete on price - those custom embedded boards are pricey.

Re:With integrated AC97 audio, no way.

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, actually I'm an idiot and didn't see the PCI riser card in my first look at the picture.

Watch out...Yeong Yang bitty case is a ***mATX***!

[MsGeek]

No, it doesn't take a regular ATX mobo. It's a mATX. And I actually think this bitty cube is CUTE. An all-aluminum case beats a plastic/steel one anyday for the right combo of low weight and strength.

I am a big fan of sane bitty boxen. I recently acquired a microtower from a dot-bomb in Santa Barbara for a pittance. I'll be writing about my new acquisition in Low End PC next week or so. It's good to see good quality small form-factor PCs now. There are many, many applications for a small PC...sure it's not ultra-expandable but you don't need the expandability. The Firewire port does help for expandability, however...Firewire is your friend, unlike USB.

The only gripe I have with this is the Savage video subsystem. The absolute worst video chipset this side of the integrated video in an InHell i810 box.

Just get a DSL/Router for $70

[Anonymous Coward]

They do it all and dont have fans. Plus will save you around $400

can I use network boot on that nic?

[BroadbandBradley]

My plan would be to use the Linux terminal server project on a main PC stuffed into the basement or wherever, then get one of these for each room in the house that has a TV. No Harddrive needed, just keep all media/data/software on the server box.

Re: can I use network boot on that nic?

[killefiz]

You can always put the netboot-bootloader
on a floppy disk. Realtek 8139 is supported
that way by lstp.

You'll probably need a 'real' Network card with
EEPROM for going without a floppy drive.

Intel etherexpress and 3com's have eeprom
where you can flash the netboot code.

Re: can I use network boot on that nic?

[r2000]

I got a MSI board with onboard realtek 8100 lan, and it has a boot agent on the motherboard.

Re:can I use network boot on that nic?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you on using this for LTSP. But I would really prefer someone to put out a similar device that just has a low speed processor (P133 would be fine), 16mb on board video, built in ethernet (with place for eeprom), an additional 16 or 32 MB RAM and external power supply.

Heating and power requirements would be much lower and it owuld have all the processing power necessary for acting as an X-terminal, VNC client, CItrix client etc (I don't know I've only used ltsp).

It would be quiet, cool, have low power requirements and would be small and light. These could well be useable/sellable in corporate environments if they start going back towards dumb terminals etc.

I for one would love one (or two or even 5)

Logged in as AC 'cause I'm lazy. Call me rockinaz.

You'd be better off doing this...

[Anonymous Coward]

ENLIGHT EN-72370X3C4 MEDIUM ATX TOWER CASE

Giga-byte model GA-6VTX VIA 694T Chipset ATX Motherboard (Integrated Sound)

LEADTEK GEFORCE2 MX200 32MB VGA WITH/TV OUT

FIREWIRE IEEE 1394 CONTROLLER CARD

All for $203 with better expansion

The mini one costs $250 and only includes what you see here

Just my 2 pennies!
=8*)
Rob

anodized

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been a lot of complaints posted about how ugly the thing is. Just send a batch of them out to the local metal coating shop for some black annodizing. They'd look real spiff in black.

Re:anodized

[bandwagon_coder]

I am gonna put a racing stripe on mine and maybe a spoiler !!!

Re:anodized

[Pope Slackman]

I am gonna put a racing stripe on mine and maybe a spoiler !!!

Don't forget the "Type R" and "VTEC" stickers!

C-X C-S

Like the guy said...

[hattig]

What part of "It'll fit a normal micro ATX MB" did you misread to be "It'll fir a normal ATX MB"?

The problem with the Aluminium case is that it looks ugly and a bit hacked up. A nice black plastic case would have been nicer.

When will some case manufacturer make a stereo-component sized case for PC components?

Agreed re: Savage video subsystem. Lets hope for a nForce version of this motherboard in the future.

Just one question for YOU...

[fobbman]

Did you make it past the first page of the review? The second, and last, page has them for sale here.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[SomeOtherGuy]

And on the realistic side -- what would this cost in licensing fees to Bill?? Sure it may be a tad snappier than VNC, but does not price figure in there somewhere. I try not to bash Microsoft to much....But I hate it when I see people try to compare things based on the licensing and upgrade fees not factoring in.

Re:Watch out...Yeong Yang bitty case is a ***mATX*

[vsync64]

Um. From your post:

No, it doesn't take a regular ATX mobo. It's a mATX.

From the parent post (strong emphasis mine):

It'll fit a normal micro ATX MB

I fail to see how your 2 sentences added anything to the discussion.

The rest of your post was interesting, but while I'm here, what on earth is wrong with USB? I love USB. Finally I have a relatively fast (for low to medium bandwidth peripherals; if you're going to use a USB hard drive you deserve what you get) integrated bus for all kinds of neat devices. And the really great part is that if said devices follow the appropriate standards, which is actually happening more as time goes on, they work seamlessly in Linux, or whatever else has USB drivers.

brick computer

[simpl3x]

anybody remember brix or brick computers sold about nine years ago?

Re:brick computer

[Catbeller]

They were manufactured from about 12 years ago by a compnay called Ergo, as I recall.

The Ergo Brick was a solid block with everything built in. Had roughly the dimensions of its namesake.

Interesting uses...

[AtariDatacenter]

As mentioned in the Via Hardware article, there is this review of just the motherboard. $320 isn't a bad entry point for a fully functional computer.

I'm wondering about its usefulness as a video machine / server of some sort (from the hardware side... not going to touch the software side HERE).

Internal space, at least in this particular case, would limit you to a single drive. The larger disk bay you'd probably want to use with a cd-r writer/dvd reader. For my single card slot, I'd choose an ATI All-In-Wonder because it does capture/tuner functions, and svideo out. But unfortunately, I think the PCI bus speed (+/- 33mhz) may cramp things. I haven't done the math yet.

The built-in ethernet is a major plus. Too bad the built in sound doesn't have RCA output.

Anyhow, at this point, I don't think anyone cares. But I'm looking to build a box with capture, playback, dvd rip, cdromwrite, net capabilities. Don't care if it'll cost more than a TiVo. I want to get the software written.

Chassis produced by AMS Electronics

[HuangBaoLin]

I have a friend who works for the company (AMS Electronics) who makes this aluminum chassis. They sell the same barebones product (called GBOX) direct off their website.

http://www.amselectronics.com/Products/PC_Servers/ CF-7989.html

They've changed the front slightly to accept a variety of clear or colored pexiglass shields. This is a great product! Damn sexy and a perfect PC to lug around (just add handle :P )

Re:Chassis produced by AMS Electronics

[Anonymous Coward]

They sell the same barebones product (called GBOX) direct off their website.

Yeah for $349. $100 more than mwave.com

Re:Chassis produced by AMS Electronics

[spudnic]

Yeah, but their price is $100 more than the place selling them via the link in the article. (Well, $99 actually)

Maybe I missed something...

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[Pope Slackman]

And on the realistic side -- what would this cost in licensing fees to Bill??

Umm...One license.

I don't know anyone who buys a seperate copy of an app for each home machine.
The legality of this is questionable, but
this is not a corporate LAN he's talking about...
The thought of a home user buying multiple licenses for his own machines, all under his immediate control, is absurd.

Yes, I am condoning this practice. No, I don't care about your opinion.

C-X C-S

Why Linux routers?

[denzo]

Why, oh why, do people still want to build cheap/small PCs into Linux routers?

As far as cost, convenience, uptime, ease of configuration, power consumption, and upteen other advantages, why not just pick up a Linksys Etherfast 4-port Cable/DSL Router (or an 8-port version) for ~$80?

Before these babies came out, Linux routers were the bomb and fun to play with. But these new routers seem like no-brainers to me. You can configure them through a Web interface (which is only accessible by the "internal" network for security), such as setting up forwarding ports, disable certain ports from accessing the Internet (i.e., just an internal gaming port). It's a teeny box that hardly uses any power, is up all time and doesn't need to be rebooted, it's fast, it's cute, and it's cheap. It's the ultimate Internet connection sharing device with sufficient firewall capabilities. I believe D-Link and Netgear also have similar routers.

Re:Why Linux routers?

[Curt Cox]

Ditto.

I used to use a 2 port Linksys and a hub, which worked great. I replaced them both with this closeout 3com model which is $50, and has a built-in print spooler.

I covet this box, but not as a router.

Re:Why Linux routers?

[denzo]

I used to use a 2 port Linksys and a hub, which worked great. I replaced them both with this closeout 3com model [tigerdirect.com] which is $50, and has a built-in print spooler.

Hey, now that's snazzy (the print spooler part). And it's got a COM port for analog modem access to boot. I wonder if the COM port, besides being for sharing a modem connection, can automatically dial an analog modem as a backup to a Cable/DSL connection going down (which D-Link's router can do).

Re:Why Linux routers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I can use one of my discarded pentium 75 machines, with a few mods to make it quieter, and not have to fork any cash over. I personally use FreeBSD, and IPF to get the job done. I also use it as a DHCP server for my multihomed network (Wireless is seperated from wired ethernet space), a light web/database server, mail, POP3 for inside the firewall, etc etc. Those routers are great, if all you want to do is route. IIRC, some do offer DHCP, but only for one class C subnet. I imagine that a Linksys DSL router would be great for someone who dosent' need as much functionality as I do. As far as uptime is concerned, my router is typically up for 100 days at a time. The last time it went down was to add a few more ethernet cards (5 total now).

Re:Why Linux routers?

[larien]

Routers have limited features; I should have added that I'd probably also put other stuff on it (ie, run an NFS/Samba server, Apache + anything else I feel like).

Re:Why Linux routers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Big deal, I can put oatmeal into an aqualung...it doesn't mean you should. And if you're running a web server, database, and POP server on the firewall, you should be blacklisted as a network admin for promoting the type of security nightmares that make these worms so easy to propagate.

Re:Why Linux routers?

[larien]

If the box is configured properly, it shouldn't be a security risk. A poorly configured firewall can be just as bad a security risk as a poorly configured firewall/router/server.

Is is just me?

[dwk123]

Okay, these things aren't beautiful, but I don't find them as ugly as most. Not compared to the average case, anyway. Paint the front black and stick it behind a smoked glass door, and you're in business. There are three things that this has above the Cappucino - pci slot - firewire - cost This is the best candidate so far for my dedicated audio box. Might not be ideal, but better than anything I've seen so far. If it's as quiet as it looks like it should be, we may have a winner.

Not to impressive

[CompuBOb]

I have a bookPC sitting here that is about that size. the mobo is the size of the one they have in that box. wats the big deal. the one I have here is like 4 years old already. it is only a celeron 533.

Re:Not to impressive

[homer_ca]

Yup, the case looks cheesy and flimsy even for being aluminum. When I was looking, I was very impressed by the MS-6215. It's about the same form-factor as the Bookpc, but also has 2 PCI slots. It has the i815 chipset, Fireware, TV-out, and integrated LAN/audio/USB. The i815 graphics are not as good for gaming as the Via PLE133, but for a home theater system, this would be awesome. Pricing is about the same as the Shuttle barebones system, low $200s.

yeah!

[dwk123]

and a big, fat, melon-spitter exhaust, too!! (uh, to help with cooling, of course :-)

PCI & HD config should be different.

[Fencepost]

The way it's currently set up you'd best not put too much processor in there if you have a PCI card or have a drive in the back bay (if you do without a floppy, you could put a DVD & HD in the front bays). As they say, a drive back there would interfere with airflow for the processor; they don't mention cards but a card would be below the drive.

What they don't mention is that this case could probably have been configured differently to allow a PCI card to be put in vertically with the back bay also vertical. That would leave plenty of clear space above the processor; the back fan could be moved over. With an air gap above the PCI card and the HD hot air could get up to that back fan for exhaust, though I don't think you'd want to put in a card that required its own fan.

Great for small file server/router

[Rob.Mathers]

I'd love to use one of these things as a small file server and router/firewall on my network. All it would require is putting in a second NIC in the PCI slot, and installation of a decent distro, maybe FreeBSD, and you've got a perfect fileserver/router solution for a home network, where there isn't much room for a dedicated networking equipment room.

Re:Great for small file server/router

[robvasquez]

Slap a 1U rack machine under your monitor. Problem solved.

Cooling?

[dwk123]

The big problem as I see it with trying to cram an Athlon into something like this is cooling. I have a 1.2G Athlon, and even in a mid-tower it wants 3 case fans to be completely happy. In a tiny cramped box like this, it would be trouble. Couple that to the increased power supply as well, and making one that is even remotely quiet is going to be tough. Quiet would appear to be one of the selling points of this type of design. Maybe the new generation of Athlons will be better in this regard.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[WinPimp2K]

Yah, but you'd better care about Bill's opinion.
Or did you forget that little bit in XP about Product Activation?

And I agree - there's only one of me, I have lotsa boxes at home and one legit copy of Office '97. It is installed on several boxes, but I don't use them all at the same time. Obviously I am not interested in upgrading any of my MS software to the XP versions

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[Pope Slackman]

Or did you forget that little bit in XP about Product Activation?

Well, I figured anyone setting up terminal services at home has the
knowledge to find a work around for that little bug. :D

Copy "protection" is about as effective as "security" through obscurity.

C-X C-S

Re:This is good news!

[Anonymous Coward]

in the cock or balls?

video ok, but fits audio better

[dwk123]

Video should be ok, if you get a DVD/CD-RW combo drive. Jacks the price up, but still feasible. Firewire storage would be the way to go. The biggest problem for video is how to get capture _and_ 5.1 digital out. Either/or is possible, but unless you go Firewire for audio (Motu 828 - not supported in Linux, sadly) or for capture (gotta be a solution floating around the Mac world that can be adapted), you might be out of luck. For audio, though, it looks pretty good. PCI slot for a high-end soundcard, files either over the net or on firewire, big CPU and little else inside for DSP work. Very promising, and more affordable than I was expecting.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[SomeOtherGuy]

Yes it is absurd...Hence, one of the main reasons I do not use Windows or Microsoft products.....However, no matter how absurd -- it is still the law and the rules. You can't justify walking into a car dealership and stealing a couple cars just because you actually purchased a car there before - but you have a 3 car garage that was feeling kind of empty.

another small cheap computer

[jemu]

I have been using an Amptron iCue BKi810 with Linux for awhile. It is cute, small, cheap, but has a nasty loud power supply fan. It has _most_ of the features of the Shuttle, no firewire tho. Performance is ho-hum, but form-factor is great. Amptron Intl.

Modem riser

[Whatever Fits]

Where can I get one of the modems for it? The specs state that it is proprietary. I want to get one of these for my family in India. So cheap, small, etc. Make it easy to pack in one of my bags for the trip there.

Re:Modem riser

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get them some couscous and saffron rice instead. The couscous tastes better with pimento sauce than a Socket 370 system.

--

Stupid Question..

[Bahamuto]

Ok This maybe a dumb question.. (and it probably is) But what's the max CPU speed I can put in this bad boy? Can I put any PIII I want in it?

Re:OT: REShuttle HOT-591p and 256 Meg RAM - possib

[Anonymous Coward]

Why was this modded down? This is good advice. I have not tried flashing the BIOS - will do. Thanks.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[jandrese]

Er, that analogy doesn't make much sense. That would be like running back to the store and stealing a couple extra copies of WinXP, then installing them on seperate partitions on your HD, which really doesn't make sense. The license is more like allowing your wife to drive the car you bought from MS, even though when you bought the car the dealer told you (in the fine print) that if she wanted to drive she'd have to come back and buy another car for her instead. But then these car analogies are dumb because when you buy a car you actually own the thing, as opposed to software were you mearly buy the permission from the company to use it in some limited fashion. Now the analogy is more like you rent the car from the dealer and he tells you that you must not let anyone else drive it becaue that will cut into his rental business.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[Zack]

_sigh_

You can't compare software to physical objects. You take a physical object, and someone else doesn't have it. You copy 1s and 0s and the original ones are still there.

How's this for a better way to look at it: It's absurd for a company to tell you that you can only play the CD you bought in one of your cars, even though you have 3. (Don't tell the RIAA, they may try to enforce that) Using software on multiple personal computers is the EXACT SAME as that. And just because the EULA says something, doesn't mean it's so. You paid to use the software, changing which machine you use it on is not the same as stealing cars.

Hell, even if doing it is illegal, it's still not _wrong_.

Re:OT: REShuttle HOT-591p and 256 Meg RAM - possib

[Anonymous Coward]

Is 'flashing' the BIOS the same as upgrading the BIOS? Sorry - I'm a software guy, and a hardware idiot.

paint an M on it

[cheese_wallet]

and call it an M-Box (mame). Look out microsoft, your X-Box has some competition now. hehe

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you new to Linux?

Noticable After-Purchase Costs - Electricity

[mlanett]

The idea of buying a tiny computer and sticking it in the audio cabinet (or whatnot) is tempting. But one has to consider the electrical costs of doing so:

145W * 24hrs = 3.4kwhours/day
3.4kwhrs * $0.10 = $0.34/day
$0.34/day * 365days = $127/year

I have one box which handles my dsl, nat, samba service, etc. As soon as I get a long high quality audio cable, it will run my mp3 on the stereo as well, and I won't have to pay $10/month to have a second computer dedicated to the job.

Re:Noticable After-Purchase Costs - Electricity

[t]

Nice analysis, but flawed. Unlike a lightbulb, the draw is not constantly 145Watts. In fact it should not even be maxed out otherwise you'd have problems handling power spikes. Two ways to figure out the actual cost: use a UPS that has power monitoring functions like some of the APC+serial port boxes. Then you can estimate the power consumed. For comparison my 300 Watt P/S linux box appears to max out at a sustained 135Watts.

The other method I've been theorizing about is to correlate the power usage to the cpu temperature. That'd be a bit harder to calibrate though.

t.

Re:OT: REShuttle HOT-591p and 256 Meg RAM - possib

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it is.

Tick, tock. there goes the lameness filter. Reeeeaal effective, I'm sure.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal - Cost??

[Zack]

Are you new to Linux?

Yeah brand new. Only been using it since about '95. And that would be why my user number on slashdot is so high. So, uh, what does that have to do with anything? I still believe that if you purchase the right to use software, then you have the right to use the software.

(God I hate ACs, make an account already)

My God, people... can't you just imagine.....

[gregwbrooks]

(wait for it....)

(wait a little longer...)

(almost here...)

... a beowolf (yep, saw it spelled that way recently) cluster of these?!? :)

Re:My God, people... can't you just imagine.....

[BlowCat]

I think it's a waste of money to use systems so many integrated components for a cluster. Do you really need Firewire, S-Video output and all other fancy things on every node?

Perhaps Shuttle could make another version of the motherboard, more suitable for low-end servers, and put it to a similar box. That would be more suitable for the Beowulf cluster.

good, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice and small, but that case has got some fuct up dimensions.

Look at the FIC Sabre ... that's an even better solution, IMO. Got one going in the car under the pax seat next to the CD changer. Running FBSD of course 'cause Tux Sucks and Beastie Rules =) /me ducks

BriQ from yellowdog

[Raleel]

On a different platform, but still completely valid is the BriQ. PPC (low heat, low power consumption) in the space of a 5 1/4" drive bay.

flying from the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get to the airport early if you're gonna be carrying it on the plane with you.

Server?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if you could string a bunch of firewire drives together and stripe them? I haven't tried software striping in 2000 yet, but I assume it would work on any drive.

At any rate, it has all the functionality of an iMac, is cheaper, and more upgradable.

An interesting use...

[cr0sh]

Damn this thing is small!

And tons cheaper than PC-104! Think of using this for robotics!

For el-cheapo systems, the parallel and serial ports are right there. Hopefully there is a way to disable video, so it doesn't suck precious battery juice. For better systems, hook up a USB interface, or firewire, or build a PCI card interface (ok, not the easiest thing, but it can be done).

More than enough robotic fun can come out of the parallel and serial ports - drop a USB quickcam (or two!) and experiment with vision.

Now - just have to dig out specs on the ATX power connector to get the thing fired up from a homebrew robotic power supply...

Next generation Emachine

[namtog]

I really think this is all we are looking at here. With the exception of a few ports and being a little bit smaller it's a dead ringer.

Could boot off flash

[dwk123]

Use one of these Flash to IDE to set up a small Flash boot drive, then mount over the network. Shouldn't need more than 8-16 meg, so it might not be too expensive.

Couldn't resist...

[Pope Slackman]

You can't justify walking into a car dealership and stealing a couple cars just because you actually purchased a car there before - but you have a 3 car garage that was feeling kind of empty.

Oh no. Car theft. Deja Vu all over again, and still as bogus as ever.

Just for that, I'm going to counter with an equally absurd and bogus analogy:

You can't justify Rosa Parks' actions on the bus,
just because she was human and thought she had a right to sit where she chose...
After all, it was against the law and the rules...

C-X C-S
Next analogy: Nazis!

My experience with TVs and computers

[Kris Magnusson]

(1) That box is tres ugly.

(2) S-Video is not suitable for most applications viewed on a TV.

Due to the limitations of S-Video, most TVs don't display computer output clearly. However, some new TVs are designed in part for optimal display of computer output up to 1024 x 768. This summer I was in the market for a big-screen TV as a computer display for business presentations, occasional web surfing, occasional e-mail, very occasional gaming for my DP's two kids. All of those apps looked like crap on all TVs (including HDs) through the S-Video output on the high-end laptop built for presentations, etc. My solution was a TV with (S)VGA ports. I ended up purchasing a 36" RCA Digital TV with max res of 800 x 600, and the TV sports two SVGA ports for the simultaneous connection of a computer and an external HDTV decoder. The tube's not quite flat, but for the money and size I didn't care. It looks spectacular--especially for USD $1100.

TVs and their qualities aside, I would never have that pop-tin monstrosity of a computer chassis in my house. The chassis I selected looks like a prev-gen HP Pavilion, which I find aesthetically pleasing. Then I selected a Radeon, DVD, wireless kb/m, and 802.11B, making it a great platform for the apps I already mentioned. But one component of TV/computer success that I overlooked and consequently found out about later is to get super-quiet power supplies, fans, etc. The resulting noise levels are too loud for quiet TV watching, but they are thankfully acceptable for nearly everything else. The result: the computer looks great in my living room, and aside from a little noise the computer/TV combo is perfect for couch web-surfing.

........... kris

Who has $80???

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, the 486 is free, and I already have it. Plus it acts as a DHCP server, DNS server, VPN server, sshd server, mail gateway, a small web server, and I run intrustion detecting and packet sniffers on it.

And it is up as long as I have power. After all, it is running linux.

Cool.

I greatly prefer MSI's

[festers]

Take a look at the Slim PCs from motherboard maker Microstar. Uses an Intel 815e chipset, decent NIC, and the case doesn't look like ass.

Re:Finally! Will fit under the seat of my car

[Anonymous Coward]

Check this out http://www.fica.com/products/systems/Databook/Sabr e1815/Sabre1815.stm

got one about ready to go in the car (posted link earlier, but it's not showing up)

got another ready to go for my boss's house. in one of the PCI slots, i'm putting a QLA2100 (for an external array for storing movies, mp3s, etc etc). another slot will get an ATI All-In-Wonder Pro if I'm (and ultimately my boss) not happy with the built in video performance (and to also allow for hooking up VCRs and most everything else)

i considered a MSI6215 for my boss, but, the FIC Sabre is too cool. for the one going in my car, i'm putting an 802.11 nic in the *built-in* pc card slot to make rsync'ing mp3s from the house much faster . on the built-in 10/100, i'll likely put a ricochet minstrel on it and train it to one in my house so i can cruise around in the area around my house and check mail or whatever

going rate for the FIC is ~US$280. fry's sells it for like $320, but i'm in no rush to get it. i have found it on the net for $230, but can't find that place anymore =(

Re:Finally! Will fit under the seat of my car

[Anonymous Coward]

oh ... sorry, forgot about this: http://www.geocities.com/christopher_bergeron/mp3j etta/

talked to him ... he's using a regular case (in case he needs to expand), but you may get some ideas for powering up/down (his is tied in directly to the electrical, not through the cigarette lighter)

Apple's Cube

[Migelikor1]

The last really big effort to sell a teensy weensy computer was the G3 cube, and they discovered that there's just not enough of a market to support it. People aren't worried enough about desktop space to make the compromises inherent in a smaller case. Now, I think that the little machines are cute, but it's a little ridiculous to think that pure cute can sell...you need some muscle or a good hook (iMac's integration, G4's power), not just a little tissue box.

Re:Apple's Cube

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it was a G4 cube, not a G3. The pricing was what killed it, you could get a G4 tower for around 200 bucks less, and have expandability. The G4 Cube should have been priced between the iMac and the G4 Tower, but wasn't. Thats why they didn't sell very well. I did see just the case of one on ebay selling for over 250.00, and thats just the plastic case.

pk

Re:Apple's Cube

[Migelikor1]

I mistyped on the chip. For that I sincerely apologize, however..... The G4 tower at a lower price was definitely an error, but one of timing. The non-gigabit ethernet towers were being phased out, but were still on sale at discount prices, accounting for the embarrasing disparity. That pricing problem does not fully account for the dissapointing sales figures. Simialarly to the unit reviewed in this article, the product was a very small computer at a normal computer's price. The size just wasn't a high enough priority for the comsumer to forsake a more powerful product. I loved it,, and think it looks sleek and sexy on other people's desks, but I wouldn't buy it myself.

Re:Windows XP dumb terminal WTF?

[SensitiveMale]

What the hell?

$250 for basic system. $100 for a decent CPU. $60 for a HD. $30 for a CD-ROM. $90 for a shitty 15" monitor. Add another $30 for misc equipment like keyboard, mouse, and such.

Now multiply all of that by 3.

For that money you can get an awesome iBook with Airport that you can use ANYWHERE with a net connection.

Why the hell would you want to place 3 or 4 of these small PCs through out the house?

They are still tethered by ethernet, power, and a desk. Geez.

Paving the way for intel's P4SFF

[pacc]

The Small Form Factor Pentium 4 might be what the industry needs to convince people that they can put a computer in their livingroom.

If nVidia delivers a chipset on the launch it might be a really good computer too. I'm currently contemplating nForce, but the bulky ATX case and all that comes with it is the biggest drawback.

What about the power supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who knows a good miniature power supply for this thing?

I thought it was the SPACE Shuttle!

[damien champagne]

Damn!

Got it!

[shumacher]

I just got mine in the mail - mostly because of this story! It's really a delight for surfing, and the setup of the machine took maybe 20 minutes. The only issues I ran into were:

Well, it's the first time I've had to do a cpu heatsink since the socket 3 days. Everyone had me worried about flipchips... Too easy, but I did take a couple of minutes orient everything before snapping the heatsink in place.

Things are tight in there, but not annoyingly so. The biggest problem with the machine overall was that the 5.25" bay is short. I wanted to move my old HP 8200i internal cd-rw in. I couldn't. It bumped against the back panel AC jack with another 1/2" to go. I ended up having to put a crummy (sounds like a vacuum) Acer 24x cd-rom in. It barely fit. It temporary though. I have my eyes on a DVD-R CD-RW combo... :) Just have to pay for the rest of this machine first...

The audio is very quiet out the back panel jacks, and somewhat quiet out the front. I need to look into that.

Overall, A+ machine, much better than the last build I did (and if you caught the Socket 3 reference, you know it's been a while).
With the 128MB of ram (temporary measure only) Windows XP Pro screams.