I'm very sceptical about Linux Desktop (for non-corporate use), mainly because of the way linux people look at this - "I develop what I want and need, if you want something else, start coding" and "linux is on the desktop, it's easy, there are no problems, you're stupid and you're lying".
But I'm extremely happy Linux is so eagerly adopted in the developing world.
Looking at it from their position it's easy to see why.
Having to cope with a bit of a learning curve is a small price to pay for being able to work with an environment that 1) costs you next to nothing; 2) treats you like an equal; 3) actively invites you to participate.
Way to go, long live OSS!
btw in light of this I'd say the most important things to do in desktop linux might not be standardization, installers, gui and all that but solid localization schemes and no nonsense support for every language there is out there.
Perspective: all computers have problems, but usually when we say "the mac is stable" or "linux servers are rock-solid" we compare them to the mainstream experiences - unstable, not so rock-solid.
So whatever your experience, I think reactions to your mail will be mostly in the trend of "well, I don't share your point of view".
Here's mine:
While my heart bleeds for you (ok, trickles), I can't say I've shared your experience. The only time I went through the roof was when I was beta-testing Safari and it ate up my Home directory. That was a major bitch, but it was a Beta, and I hadn't done a backup, so there you are. Compared with what I see around me I can safely say imvho macs are more stable.
When you see those startrek buffs running around with their cute tablets, you just know it's a good idea. But a tablet do run current programs and their three-mouse-button/keyboard GUI's is just dumb.
Hospitals, institutions, huge engineering projects, universities, and of course NASA (who are secretly training the next first generation StarTrek crew)... They could do with them, provided the applications and above all kick ass Stupid Simple interfaces are there.
As for me, I've already got a computer, a PSII and a remote control. All I miss is an iPod and a turtleneck.
IMO those "rules" aren't debunked. Anyway, they're guidelines, remember?
In a lot of areas and situations, they apply. But clearly it's idiotic to make a news website with only 7 links. OTOH it's counterproductive to put every conceiveable category on the first page. So in the end, the rule - ahem, guideline - still applies, sort of.
And the 3 clicks rule is a very very good one, but it stems from interfaces that were limited in scope. Still, the rule (ok, guideline) applies most of the time.
If I click on a news article link, I don't want to first go to a page to choose a preferred layout, for example. That's one of the stupid mistakes we nowadays won't see anymore. If I want to print the page, I'll see a print button on most news pages, and that's the way to do it. Still, if I go for something specific and lots of deciding parameters have to be resolved first, I'll most likely be taken through a process of refining options before I reach my destination. Even there, if by the third click I don't have firm feedback that in the end I'll get there, I'm gone. So the rule - yeah yeah guideline - still applies, sort of.
The reason these guidelines can't be 'debunked' is because they stem from the limits of our cognitive capabilities. So in most situations, they work perfectly, and even on a page with hundreds of links, it really really helps if those links are categorised and ordered in groups of say 7 links...
Only shortsighted people however, will try to apply a limited set of rules, guidelines or holy dictates to every instant of reality.
1) inform the company first 2) if no reply in 24 hours, release information publicly 3) if reply, and clear - and reasonable - timetable for fix given, wait and see 4) if first milestone not reached for whatever reason, release information publicly.
Except for point 3, I don't see why this information should be witheld or why the person who discovers a security hole should do a corporate dance, he has already done everybody a great service by finding a security hole and not exploiting it.
As in this case, MS is now obliged to fix these issues - and a couple of them were already known for a while, so we better hope they fix it in time.
As in the case of Apple's latest exploit, there's no doubt the release of information has done more good than bad. I was able to protect myself against something I previously was not aware of. Now I can be as zealous as any mac owner, but screw everybody who thinks this information was a "bad" thing, for whatever misguided reason. OK, so it's a feature, and certainly not a bug in the traditional sense, but it's easily exploitable and that's what counts.
I don't mind those taxes on blank CD's and wouldn't mind taxes on bandwidth. As long as they are for the end user minimal in impact. No tax should stiffle growth.
But the stupid thing is: why should the music industry have sole benefit?
Come on, guys/grrls! Programmers Unite!
A shitheap of illegal and legal downloads and copies are made of your work.
In the end, if the money is well spent I say: "More power to you", but for every ten CD's I burn, maybe one is music - LEGALLY aquired, thankyouverymuch - and the rest is backups, pictures, my own work and programs. I actually don't think I'm very different in this than most people.
Everybody knows grannies love to talk to themselves...
I'm downloading Yellowdog - thanks to a helpful comment and hopefully will happily comment on how easy the install was...
All of you who're pissed off or think I am not "fit for Linux": sorry, I wasn't talking to you. Just to the people who think a UserLinux distro is a good thing.
This whole bounty thing is a good way to get people to care about things they usually - and understandably - wouldn't bother with.
And I do dig it's kind of insulting to read negative comments on free stuff this stupid granny hasn't even contributed to. But that can't be helped.
Well that's nice... some context here: I'm definitely not trying to appeal to the mass of Linux users.
I'm only writing for those who think Desktop Linux for dummies is a good idea. As it turns out, that's rather a lot of people - maybe not the majority of/. but more than I suspected.
And one of the reasons I'm prepared to flaunt my own ignorance is that pro UserLinux people should see that the tactic of telling people computers are complicated and they should rely on their tech guy/spotty nephew for everything more complicated than opening Word has already failed ten times over.
Your comment is a reflection of that flawed thought. Not trying to piss you off, just telling you that if you'd be my linux techy/spotty grand-child, I'd fire you on the spot. And take away your root access. That'd teach you to be mean to granny.
I've had more than enough competence in the past to install a number of operating systems. Just not Linux. Now, if you're in favor of UserLinux and you don't see anything wrong with that picture you don't understand your userbase.
Anyway, I'm downloading a yellowdog linux distribution thanks to a helpful comment by someone who clearly loves his granny more than you do...
The free software idea imo works perfectly... to a certain extent.
What's different now is that specific things are expected in order to fit in a clearly outlined project plan.
Meaning: you have to walk in line. That's something you generally don't do for free. Hence the bounty.
Still I think this doesn't show a deficit, neither does it say anything about socialism - or in what sense the OSS is or should be socialist in nature. If it wasn't for all those "egotistic" flags already planted, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
It just shows a clear limit to what you can expect people to do for free and when you have to offer incentives.
And that is something every government that is to an extent socialist in nature (not talking about failed communist/totalitarian experiments, talking about most western countries) takes into account as well. You're on the wrong track. It's not a weakness, it's a strength.
We should be glad there's a limit to what people do freely. Even if that makes running projects and governments more of a hassle.
See, I'm on OS X and have installed Darwin. That's where I'm at.
I've already asked some questions to the darwin-gnome usergroup, but to my great surprise no answers yet. (I was really polite:-)
So I guess so far I've been really stupid about this, expecting an integrated desktop came with what's needed to make it work. The Gnome website and manuals don't really say anything about that. Guess it must be genetically aquired knowledge;-) It's now become a longer term project and I'm going to try and learn how to install a fully functioning linux desktop on a mac.
Do I really need to buy a CD from somebody or other for that?
What I've learned already is that all those guys screaming "Linux is a kernel, not an OS" aren't kidding.
If I ever succeed, I guess I'll say "that was dumb". But right now I'm back at my previous assumption that Linux is for those who care about Linux. I'm gonna try and care a bit, see where it gets me. I must be crazy, I'm actually totally happy with OS X...
It would help to have no nonsense all-in installers for sissies like me. If you know where I can get one...
After having flamed a bit about Linux only being for those who are into Linux as opposed to Apple/Windows being for the vast masses who don't give a fuck, I was told that indeed Gnome was THE distro for the stupid (me).
Three days and 78 downloads later I'm still not closer to a functioning Gnome.
What's so hard - conceptually - about an installer that you know, just installs this shit and be done with it?
Ye gods, I really begin to doubt any linux person actually has an idea what user friendlyness actually means.
Rant over. When-if-I get this stupid dwarf installed, I may rant some more, but so far I think it has been admirable in its attempt to keep the stupid at bay...
I think I'm going to keep a journal to report a bit on this.
Still looking for the Gnome 2.4 installer, still trying to make sense of it all. But intrigued as I am, will go on looking.
All ftp sites have a readme saying I should go to dir/latest/stable/ or just/stable/ and none of them have that directory. Weird. None of the links actually go to an installer or a directory with something that says "Here Is Gnome 2.4, Start Here!!!!!".
As for install instructions, ye gods I hope they are kidding. 20+ installs in a fixed order, dependencies and stuff I have to go and find on other sites?
I can't even find the base installer of the system or whatever on their own website!
Slashdot Mirror
Now what you want to do is use a reliable mirror. The yelowdoglinux connection is notoriously baddddd.
g ill.ca/ydl/iso/g /isoi nux.co m/pub/yellowdog/isoh /mirror/yellowdog/iso / ftp.sunet.se/pub/os/Linux/distributions/yell owdog/iso
http://ydl.oregonstate.edu/iso/
http://open.mc
ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/yellowdo
ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.yellowdogl
ftp://sunsite.cnlab-switch.c
ftp://ftp.uit.no/pub/linux/yellowdog/iso
ftp:/
And Apple? They may be dead, but they're far from poor.
I'm very sceptical about Linux Desktop (for non-corporate use), mainly because of the way linux people look at this - "I develop what I want and need, if you want something else, start coding" and "linux is on the desktop, it's easy, there are no problems, you're stupid and you're lying".
But I'm extremely happy Linux is so eagerly adopted in the developing world.
Looking at it from their position it's easy to see why.
Having to cope with a bit of a learning curve is a small price to pay for being able to work with an environment that
1) costs you next to nothing;
2) treats you like an equal;
3) actively invites you to participate.
Way to go, long live OSS!
btw in light of this I'd say the most important things to do in desktop linux might not be standardization, installers, gui and all that but solid localization schemes and no nonsense support for every language there is out there.
And now I must be off, leaving the country, assuming another identity in the hope no /. will ever recognise me.
Cheers,
Perspective: all computers have problems, but usually when we say "the mac is stable" or "linux servers are rock-solid" we compare them to the mainstream experiences - unstable, not so rock-solid.
So whatever your experience, I think reactions to your mail will be mostly in the trend of "well, I don't share your point of view".
Here's mine:
While my heart bleeds for you (ok, trickles), I can't say I've shared your experience. The only time I went through the roof was when I was beta-testing Safari and it ate up my Home directory. That was a major bitch, but it was a Beta, and I hadn't done a backup, so there you are. Compared with what I see around me I can safely say imvho macs are more stable.
When you see those startrek buffs running around with their cute tablets, you just know it's a good idea. But a tablet do run current programs and their three-mouse-button/keyboard GUI's is just dumb.
Hospitals, institutions, huge engineering projects, universities, and of course NASA (who are secretly training the next first generation StarTrek crew)... They could do with them, provided the applications and above all kick ass Stupid Simple interfaces are there.
As for me, I've already got a computer, a PSII and a remote control. All I miss is an iPod and a turtleneck.
Too much free beer. That's what's wrong, that is.
Just one look at the penguin after a few lagers and you know exactly what I mean.
Do you? See? That's the problem.
(If you don't get it, why not grab a cool one and join the discussion?)
Disclaimer: 100% sober posting - and that's what's wrong with it.
Nah, they're dead. Steve Jobs, he's beleagured.
Well, anybody wearing turtlenecks and shorts, without actually being a priest on holiday should be beleagured.
Come to think of it, how come the master of cool can get away with this and us mere mortals get run over for wearing white socks?
Damn, I definitely need an iPod.
Apple has been dead what? At least 50 times now.
BSD, well, let's just not go there.
Linux clearly is on its death bed, what with all those lawsuits by good wholesome Utahmericans fighting communism and
MS is clearly making way too much money to be alive much longer.
Does Unix have any reason to live while others die at least once a week. I say, if Unix doesn't make up its mind soon, let's kill it ourselves!
Cheers.
IMO those "rules" aren't debunked. Anyway, they're guidelines, remember?
...
In a lot of areas and situations, they apply. But clearly it's idiotic to make a news website with only 7 links. OTOH it's counterproductive to put every conceiveable category on the first page. So in the end, the rule - ahem, guideline - still applies, sort of.
And the 3 clicks rule is a very very good one, but it stems from interfaces that were limited in scope. Still, the rule (ok, guideline) applies most of the time.
If I click on a news article link, I don't want to first go to a page to choose a preferred layout, for example. That's one of the stupid mistakes we nowadays won't see anymore. If I want to print the page, I'll see a print button on most news pages, and that's the way to do it.
Still, if I go for something specific and lots of deciding parameters have to be resolved first, I'll most likely be taken through a process of refining options before I reach my destination. Even there, if by the third click I don't have firm feedback that in the end I'll get there, I'm gone. So the rule - yeah yeah guideline - still applies, sort of.
The reason these guidelines can't be 'debunked' is because they stem from the limits of our cognitive capabilities. So in most situations, they work perfectly, and even on a page with hundreds of links, it really really helps if those links are categorised and ordered in groups of say 7 links
Only shortsighted people however, will try to apply a limited set of rules, guidelines or holy dictates to every instant of reality.
A good policy would be to:
1) inform the company first
2) if no reply in 24 hours, release information publicly
3) if reply, and clear - and reasonable - timetable for fix given, wait and see
4) if first milestone not reached for whatever reason, release information publicly.
Except for point 3, I don't see why this information should be witheld or why the person who discovers a security hole should do a corporate dance, he has already done everybody a great service by finding a security hole and not exploiting it.
As in this case, MS is now obliged to fix these issues - and a couple of them were already known for a while, so we better hope they fix it in time.
As in the case of Apple's latest exploit, there's no doubt the release of information has done more good than bad.
I was able to protect myself against something I previously was not aware of. Now I can be as zealous as any mac owner, but screw everybody who thinks this information was a "bad" thing, for whatever misguided reason. OK, so it's a feature, and certainly not a bug in the traditional sense, but it's easily exploitable and that's what counts.
Cheers
:-)
But serious, the only reason composers are getting their due is because they are strongly represented through their organization.
There is absolutely no proof that 100% of blank CD's are used for copying - and illegal copying at that.
So there's no rational reason to have all those taxes go to composers.
Here's the thing:
I don't mind those taxes on blank CD's and wouldn't mind taxes on bandwidth. As long as they are for the end user minimal in impact. No tax should stiffle growth.
But the stupid thing is: why should the music industry have sole benefit?
Come on, guys/grrls! Programmers Unite!
A shitheap of illegal and legal downloads and copies are made of your work.
In the end, if the money is well spent I say: "More power to you", but for every ten CD's I burn, maybe one is music - LEGALLY aquired, thankyouverymuch - and the rest is backups, pictures, my own work and programs. I actually don't think I'm very different in this than most people.
Cheers
I think MSOffice is way better than OO. It's more consistent, has well thought out features and looks good.
:-)
In a perfect world, Israel would ditch Windows and keep MSOffice.
Glad to have brought a bit of controversy. And congrats for this very good news to the OS community.
Everybody knows grannies love to talk to themselves...
I'm downloading Yellowdog - thanks to a helpful comment and hopefully will happily comment on how easy the install was...
All of you who're pissed off or think I am not "fit for Linux": sorry, I wasn't talking to you. Just to the people who think a UserLinux distro is a good thing.
This whole bounty thing is a good way to get people to care about things they usually - and understandably - wouldn't bother with.
And I do dig it's kind of insulting to read negative comments on free stuff this stupid granny hasn't even contributed to. But that can't be helped.
Well that's nice... some context here: I'm definitely not trying to appeal to the mass of Linux users.
/. but more than I suspected.
I'm only writing for those who think Desktop Linux for dummies is a good idea. As it turns out, that's rather a lot of people - maybe not the majority of
And one of the reasons I'm prepared to flaunt my own ignorance is that pro UserLinux people should see that the tactic of telling people computers are complicated and they should rely on their tech guy/spotty nephew for everything more complicated than opening Word has already failed ten times over.
Your comment is a reflection of that flawed thought. Not trying to piss you off, just telling you that if you'd be my linux techy/spotty grand-child, I'd fire you on the spot. And take away your root access. That'd teach you to be mean to granny.
I've had more than enough competence in the past to install a number of operating systems. Just not Linux. Now, if you're in favor of UserLinux and you don't see anything wrong with that picture you don't understand your userbase.
Anyway, I'm downloading a yellowdog linux distribution thanks to a helpful comment by someone who clearly loves his granny more than you do...
The free software idea imo works perfectly... to a certain extent.
What's different now is that specific things are expected in order to fit in a clearly outlined project plan.
Meaning: you have to walk in line. That's something you generally don't do for free. Hence the bounty.
Still I think this doesn't show a deficit, neither does it say anything about socialism - or in what sense the OSS is or should be socialist in nature. If it wasn't for all those "egotistic" flags already planted, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
It just shows a clear limit to what you can expect people to do for free and when you have to offer incentives.
And that is something every government that is to an extent socialist in nature (not talking about failed communist/totalitarian experiments, talking about most western countries) takes into account as well. You're on the wrong track. It's not a weakness, it's a strength.
We should be glad there's a limit to what people do freely. Even if that makes running projects and governments more of a hassle.
Joking aside - and yes, I fear I've already spread my genes...
You shouldn't need a lot of competence to install an OS.
I've installed a lot of them, including Be and - shudder - Windows.
But I finally am getting the picture. Hopefully somewhere next week I'll be able to upgrade my gene-set with some Linux nollidj...
Thanks for the advise. One question: which of those two are most dummy proof?
Cheers!
OK, thanks for the reactions!
:-)
;-)
...
See, I'm on OS X and have installed Darwin. That's where I'm at.
I've already asked some questions to the darwin-gnome usergroup, but to my great surprise no answers yet. (I was really polite
So I guess so far I've been really stupid about this, expecting an integrated desktop came with what's needed to make it work. The Gnome website and manuals don't really say anything about that. Guess it must be genetically aquired knowledge
It's now become a longer term project and I'm going to try and learn how to install a fully functioning linux desktop on a mac.
Do I really need to buy a CD from somebody or other for that?
What I've learned already is that all those guys screaming "Linux is a kernel, not an OS" aren't kidding.
If I ever succeed, I guess I'll say "that was dumb". But right now I'm back at my previous assumption that Linux is for those who care about Linux. I'm gonna try and care a bit, see where it gets me. I must be crazy, I'm actually totally happy with OS X...
It would help to have no nonsense all-in installers for sissies like me. If you know where I can get one
Cheers
The songs you buy are AAC 128kbps. Meaning, they've been reduced in quality compared to the original.
When you burn and then make MP3's of a reasonable size, you're reducing it again in quality.
Meaning you lose quality in the conversion.
And this doodah just takes away the DRM without reducing anything.
That's why.
Not saying it's a good thing, just explaining there actually is a good reason for owners of the songs to do this...
People should make choices and be responsible for those choices
And pigs should really fly.
Thanks, I will.
It seems this will install Gnome 2.2, but what the. If I can get into this dwarf, I can always update, I assume.
cheers!
Hi there.
Let me introduce myself: I'm grandma, I'm dumb.
After having flamed a bit about Linux only being for those who are into Linux as opposed to Apple/Windows being for the vast masses who don't give a fuck, I was told that indeed Gnome was THE distro for the stupid (me).
Three days and 78 downloads later I'm still not closer to a functioning Gnome.
What's so hard - conceptually - about an installer that you know, just installs this shit and be done with it?
Ye gods, I really begin to doubt any linux person actually has an idea what user friendlyness actually means.
Rant over. When-if-I get this stupid dwarf installed, I may rant some more, but so far I think it has been admirable in its attempt to keep the stupid at bay...
First experience is not really positive.
/latest/stable/ or just /stable/ and none of them have that directory. Weird. None of the links actually go to an installer or a directory with something that says "Here Is Gnome 2.4, Start Here!!!!!".
I think I'm going to keep a journal to report a bit on this.
Still looking for the Gnome 2.4 installer, still trying to make sense of it all. But intrigued as I am, will go on looking.
All ftp sites have a readme saying I should go to dir
As for install instructions, ye gods I hope they are kidding. 20+ installs in a fixed order, dependencies and stuff I have to go and find on other sites?
I can't even find the base installer of the system or whatever on their own website!
Oh well, easy...