Gnome.org Desktop Integration Bounty Hunt

tempest303 writes "In order to help improve integration between apps on the Gnome desktop, Gnome.org is offering bounties for the completion of a variety of integration tasks. Bounties range from $15, for submitting new .ical files for Evolution 2.0's multiple calendar view, to $2500 for allowing synchronization between Evolution's addressbook with Gaim's buddy list!"

Comments

Nice but

[grennis]

Doesnt the open source model succeed by encouraging people to collaborate and work together? It seems to me that this bounty concept will only motivate people to hide information from each other and work against each other in the name of money.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesnt the open source model succeed by encouraging people to collaborate and work together? It seems to me that this bounty concept will only motivate people to hide information from each other and work against each other in the name of money.

Read the friendly links. They promote teamwork, and they consider it as one of the best results of these bounties.

Re:Nice but

[JaxWeb]

Wouldn't we prefer to think that the people who can solve these problems will be the same people who wouldn't want money for it? The rules about the User Interface are good though, and it something that future developments really need (A logical, clear UI)

Where was the money from, anyway?

Re:Nice but

[Spider[DAC]]

Actually, its on a tight timeframe, the rules state that it has to be officially accepted into CVS, follow clean code and be nice.

People may cooperate, but unite behind one front-man.

This means that a lot of hacking will go on in the shadows, then pour out "when its done", Just like usual. Since the code has to pass the module maintainers eyes, form and correctness will be ensured.

Overall I think this is a great incentive. (Compare this to Abiword and the patchbounty, for example )

Re:Nice but

[Daverd]

Well, once they actually release their code and claim the money prize, their code is now open-source and anyone can look at it. It only motivates them to hide their work until the point where anyone uses it. But I think it's the same way in the current (unpaid) model of contribution... individuals' work is generally not available to anyone until they release it.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for 10 or 15 bucks it doesn't. A few thousand, maybe.

Shouldn't the real bounty be for the heads of those that gave us a 75% finished product in the first place?

Re:Nice but

[ScrewMaster]

I'd give them 80% myself, but then again ... anything free is worth precisely what you paid for it.

Re:Nice but

[XiChimos]

Money is a motivator just like fame.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard they got a $50 million private investment from someone called BayStar Capital.

Re:Nice but

[SlashdotLemming]

Wouldn't we prefer to think that the people who can solve these problems will be the same people who wouldn't want money for it?

Skill != Morality

Just because some righteous programmer jumps on the open source bandwagon doesn't mean he's any good.
Being the greedy bastard that I am, I prefer to use my skills for evil rather than good. That $2500 bounty ain't worth my time.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm. I read this as Nice Butt and was thinking, "Thanks."

Re:Nice but

[anteater424]

Strange prioties, IMO. Calendar publishing worth less than GAIM integration?

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

I agree.

Even more distrubing is that this is basically making slaves out of developers: who gets the bounty? the first worker to submit? What happens to the 340 other people who started working on this?

I thought there were laws against this kind of labour.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

People like you would probably be more interested in the KDE Projects more than anything

Re:Nice but

[Spider[DAC]]

the price seems to be on a difficulty scale, and gaim integration is harder. And gaim isn't an official Gnome project, and as I've understood it doesn't want to introduce Gnome dependencies.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Money isn't the root of all evil. The code will end up open source and that's what really matters. It's a nice little bonus for younger programmers who need some cash. Though it isn't going to feed anyone's family, it's a great bonus to get certain things done that need to get done.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention, who uses gaim anyways? You would have to pay me a lot more money to even touch it too.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

work is generally not available to anyone until they release it.

You don't say?

Re:Nice but

[Haeleth]

Slaves? Is there someone rounding up innocent developers, nailing them to seats in front of computers, and giving them sound beatings if they don't work on these projects? I don't see any mention of that.

If you want an analogy, think of it as like a lottery. You can't enter expecting the money. If you don't like the idea of your work being wasted, then don't enter.

Re:Nice but

[Malcolm Scott]

RTFA...

At the top of each bounty item, in the little header, there's a link to a bug in bugzilla.gnome.org. If you intend to work on a bounty, please add a comment to this bug registering your intent to work on it. That way, if multiple people want to work on the same task, they can more easily find each other and collaborate. Please do not close this bug; it will be marked FIXED by the contest organizers when the prize is claimed.

In the case of multiple submissions for the same bounty, the judging panel will do its best to choose the highest-quality submission and award a bounty to the submitter responsible for it.

Re:Nice but

[Aeiri]

I think what he was referring to was the fact that most people who are able program for Linux are willing to do so for free, since they are used to the open source environment.

Re:Nice but

[damiam]

Novell, I believe.

Re:Nice but

[anickname]

This is a pure economical exploitation of the internet. Deliver the code and you get the money.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

the judging panel will do its best to choose the highest-quality submission and award a bounty to the submitter responsible for it.

So like I said, 40 people will be contracted for a job, and 39 will be dropped based on 'poor quality work'.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

No, there isn't someone rounding up innocent developers. But then again, under the table workers who wash cars for $2/day aren't legal either. Why? It's much more than just one person's situation, it's the entire market.

Why do you think there's such a thing as minimum wage? These bounty's are basically by-passing minimum wage laws... You could say it's piece work... but not even. I don't see how the tax and everything would fit in it...

Think of it this way: do you think it would be even remotely legal for lottery services to give tickets in exchange of hard labour? What about insurances, and workspace security? What about indemnity?

So why are you so eager to promote something that would strip us (programmers) of our status of labour workers? Just because our labour doesn't induce sweat, doesn't mean it's not labour.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

It does seem like a lot of projects get about 75-80% done and then when all that is left is cleaning it up, polishing and documentation it's time to fork or build another thing that does the same thing.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not work for hire, it's a contest

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

So why are you so eager to promote something that would strip us (programmers) of our status of labour workers? Just because our labour doesn't induce sweat, doesn't mean it's not labour.

Because he's a programmer. Most programmers labor to replace themselves out of a steady job. That's what progress is about. You replace yourself, you update your skills, and then you hope you can find a new opportunity somewhere else. It's not an easy life, but it sure beats fighting for your "right" to keep an outdated job.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

Uhm, I never fought to keep my right as an outdated/outskilled employee. For crying out loud, I'm a freelance programmer, the toughest market out there...

What I am fighting against is turning programming into a sweatshop workers' market - and believe me, there is a trend to push it there. Off-shore development ring a bell?

I shall reiterate: why are people against children working for pennies an hour in Nike shoe factories in India? Why are people against even just normal adults working for pennies an hour? Think about that a bit, and then come back and let's talk.

Nobody anywhere is advocating lazy people making lots of money, that's just a side-effect of labour laws that can be dealt with simple vigilence (e.g. proper quality control and responsability - for example not letting companies like Enron survive for so long).

Re:Nice but

[Sneftel]

...and yet these things obviously have not yet been done. So since the "able program for Gnome for free" people haven't stepped up to the plate yet, why don't they try it this way?

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I believe they're talking about individual calendars. A calendar with US holidays, for example, or one with Chinese holidays.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice. Although a bit too old guys for me.
Can I use this KDE thing on my Apple Macintosh?

- Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day

Re:Nice but

[Craig Maloney]

If you don't like it, don't participate in it. There's lots of people who wouldn't mind a little incentive to put in a feature in to a program. And in the end, we all benefit, right?

Sheesh, just because you might not want to take part in it doesn't mean nobody should.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

Wow, I can't believe my post got modded down so much, and I got an answer like yours.

It truly illustrates the american mentality of "I don't fucking care if my neighbour dies"...

Go ahead dick head... do it. I'm not going to participate in any case, but now I won't watch out for my colleagues either. Fucking idiots...

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

In the end, it's money that pays the bills, not volunteer work.

Sorry, but $$ motivates everyone.

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

I shall reiterate: why are people against children working for pennies an hour in Nike shoe factories in India?

This question bears a number of answers. And before I give the answer you're looking for, I'd just like to say you're trying to turn this into an emotional argument since we were not talking about "Indian children" programmers and we were certainly not talking about dangerous sweaty "sweatshop" conditions. We were talking about programming.

Why are people against even just normal adults working for pennies an hour?

Because people are trying to protect their own jobs from dirt cheap competition. Is this the point you were trying to make? So in other words, because most people feel the same way you do, you're arguing that makes your opinion valid.

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

Uhm, I never fought to keep my right as an outdated/outskilled employee.

You never fough this trend? I'm sorry, I thought you were raising this issue because you wanted coercive government intervention.

PS: I never said that you were "outskilled", I just meant that your skills were outdated if someone else can do the same job for less pay.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately for you, "looking out for my neighbors" extends beyond just looking out for them. It's more like a religious nut saying he is looking out for women by banning abortion.

Re:Nice but

[Harry8]

... anything free is worth precisely what you paid for it.
Like say, for example, breatheable air? Cost does not always equal value.

Re:Nice but

[shaitand]

Note how there IS a massively popular gnome desktop in existance due to the programming efforts of those people you claim haven't stepped up to the plate.

Not that this is a bad idea, this isn't downplaying those who code for free as some people like to imply. This is simply freeing their hands to work on other things and having a bit of fun.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

Because people are trying to protect their own jobs from dirt cheap competition.

Well, in fact, no, that's not the point I'm trying to make. My point is a highly 'socialist' one and that is that labour should be compensated for properly. Contrary to populary belief, in the capitalist world of today, without regulations, society would pretty much crumble... rich capital owners paying the lowest possible fare for any labour would rake in money without allowing any chance of survival for the 'weaker' workers...

There needs to be standards and regulations set in society in order to avoid the collapse... just like there is tax, there needs to be regulatory standards of how labour is compensated. And in fact, there is.

That's my whole point. There is and they shouldn't be bypassed. And along the same line of thought: programming *is* labour, and shouldn't be treated as a hobby. Imagine what would happen if all of a sudden a country started exporting wheat for 1/10th the price... oh wait, you don't have to imagine... just think about all the cafufle that went around with NAFTA etc...

I could go on and on with the examples, but it's really up to you to try to understand, not up to me to try and convince you... Oh, and btw, before you go on your ad-hominem rampage about how I'm making an emotional argument, think a bit... the only reason I chose those extreme examples is because people actually don't see the point I'm trying to make when I speak plainly (hence my original post being modded -3 overrated)

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

oh nice.

Very nice. I wonder if I'm dealing with a 13 year old, or a 45 year old with the mental age of a 13 year old.

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

My point is a highly 'socialist' one and that is that labour should be compensated for properly.

What about kids who are just starting to learn programming? How should they be compensated? What about Indian programmers who make $20 an hour? That's still a lot of money down there.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

I think you've quite unwittingly stepped on the most crucial point: two kids who are learning to program are doing just that! Learning how to program. I don't see any doctors learning how to operate go do surgery for bounty money. So why are you treating software *any* different? If you treat software as a per-bounty-contribuable-pass-time-that-anyone-can- pick-up, you lose the argument defacto when the day comes regarding discussions about how software writers should be held accountable (Microsoft? Ring a bell?) when they don't take the job of software engineering seriously. How many bridges do we see built around for bounty money?

Indian programmers who make $20 an hour are fine to make $20/hr. Are you somehow wanting to make $20/hr also? is that your point? what is your point?

My point can not be clearer: programming and software development are a skill/job/art/qualification... Open source is a nice thing and all, but let's not take it to the point of saying "let's stop hiring programmers to do work, instead, let's post flyers offering cash rewards"... Just as I wouldn't want my meat to come from bounty farmers, my airplaines to be flown by bounty pilots, or even my grass to be cut by bounty workers...

It has two nasty side effects that we want to avoid at all costs: no ownership of the work (bad for the consumer), and bad working environments (bad for the programmer).

You be your own judge. I will definitely not take one of these bounty contracts out... I've given my 2 cents enough already.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean exploitation of man by man.

Re:Nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't it be considered as "prizes" or "awards" instead of "bounty"?

A poor choice of words by somebody.

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

"I think you've quite unwittingly stepped on the most crucial point: two kids who are learning to program are doing just that! Learning how to program. I don't see any doctors learning how to operate go do surgery for bounty money. So why are you treating software *any* different?"

Because when a mistake is made by a surgeon it kills someone and when a mistake is made by some kids programming it certainly doesn't kill anyone and it certainly will be checked if and before it gets back to the code base. Sheesh. This is certainly a poor analogy on your part.

"If you treat software as a per-bounty-contribuable-pass-time-that-anyone-can- pick-up, you lose the argument defacto when the day comes regarding discussions about how software writers should be held accountable (Microsoft? Ring a bell?) when they don't take the job of software engineering seriously."

What do you mean by accountable? Do you mean financially liable? Aren't you just setting up a straw argument here anyway? If you want software which is written by accountable people, you sign and you pay for a minimum of Level of Service. If you don't want to pay for that level of service, then you don't. It's your choice.

"How many bridges do we see built around for bounty money?"

Ditto about this being a poor analogy.

"My point can not be clearer:"

That's unfortunate, because I still can't understand it.

"I will definitely not take one of these bounty contracts out... I've given my 2 cents enough already. "

I won't take it either, but that shouldn't stop some kid who needs the extra income and the reputation to go ahead and take it. Bye bye.

Re:Nice but

[pVoid]

Because when a mistake is made by a surgeon it kills someone and when a mistake is made by some kids programming it certainly doesn't kill anyone and it certainly will be checked if and before it gets back to the code base. Sheesh. This is certainly a poor analogy on your part.

Either you're naive, or you're hypocritical.

Are we not on slashdot here? Are we not on the site where Bill Gates himself is heralded as the sole responsible for all the security issues out there? For example the power failures?

Beyond being either naive or a hypocrite, you're also a simpleton... You probably don't see the problems associated with working under the table and such, and quite frankly I don't care if you don't. Have a happy life. I won't see you in it.

That's unfortunate, because I still can't understand it.

That's your problem. I hope one day you do.

Re:Nice but

[stephanruby]

Either you're naive, or you're hypocritical. [That's it call me names, we all know that's the best way to win an argument]

Are we not on slashdot here? Are we not on the site where Bill Gates himself is heralded as the sole responsible for all the security issues out there? For example the power failures? [Yes, here at Slashdot, we are tens of thousands of posters and we all have the same opinion.]

Beyond being either naive or a hypocrite, you're also a simpleton... [Again, thanks for reminding me of my flaws. I needed that. And obviously, it's making your argument that much stronger.] You probably don't see the problems associated with working under the table and such, [Actually, I don't like people working under the table. If it were up to me, if the work was productive and if it was not hurting anyone, I would want the government to support it.] and quite frankly I don't care if you don't. Have a happy life. I won't see you in it. [Bye Bye once again.]

Great initiative

[MikeCapone]

It's all good and well to program for love and pride, but these rewards will help the project move over some of the less glamourous problems.

Consolidation is important in the Linux world; if coders spent more time on it instead of creating new competing apps (not that there's not a place for that), the world would be a better place.

Re:Great initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

double negative.

Re:Great initiative

[tronicum]

It is important to have competition inside the linux community as well. If there would be only one Desktop, it would result into an monoculture the M$-world.

It is a nice idea to setup bounty on OSS as the developers get an instant reward on their work.

The downside of course is the only big Fondations (Apache, Gnome, etc) have money to spend because they get it from the industry (like Intel, IBM,...)

Re:Great initiative

[MikeCapone]

The downside of course is the only big Fondations (Apache, Gnome, etc) have money to spend because they get it from the industry (like Intel, IBM,...)

Small donations are the way of the future!

A fund should be set up where people can donate money that would be allocated to bounties, and they could either select on which task they want their money to be allocated to drop it in a pool of ressources that would be allocated through some kind of more or less democratic process (secure online polls/surveys?)

As far as I know this thing doesn't exist in the open source world. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Re:Great initiative

[ParadoxDruid]

I think this would be a great initiative. I'm not a programmer, but I use Linux both at home and at work.

Often, I find little annoying quirks with no immediate fixes, usually this sort of inter-operability issue.

I'd LOVE to be able to post up my concern with $10 or so, and see if more people would be willing to pitch money towards it, to motivate some programmer.

Re:Great initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that it isn't correct.

Re:Great initiative

[mnemonic_]

Of course it would be sad if tasks only got done because of bounties...

Re:Great initiative

[tsmoke]

There are at least two projects that are similar to what you are requesting:

LinuxFund.org: From teh FAQ: Issuing development grants for projects which may not be suitable for commercial or volunteer efforts but which will enhance the long-term vitality of the Open Source. All projects we fund will become Open Source. To be more clear, the projects that we aim to fund are the development and the
documentation of Open Source.

Pubsoft.org: They seem to do something similar.

Of course, I'm sure the FSF would be delighted to broker a donation to a specific project or developer.

Re:Great initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

What about SourceSupport? It seems to be exactly what you are talking about.

Re:Great initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, right.

Re:Great initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

Learning to code...
When you post patches to an Open Source project, you test your skills in programming and see if your skills are good enough for 'real' programming tasks.
So everybody who want's to learn to be a part of the OSS programming world can do so for free and with all the tools (except a computer) avaible.

Also - people who do it for _fun_ won't stop, because others get money.

Also - people who already have a job programming OSS for some company (a Sysadmin, Redhat, appliance people and so on) also programme what they always have done.

Re:Great initiative

[MikeCapone]

Interesting indeed.

Maybe it's just me, but this site doesn't seem as publicized as most other OSS sites. I've never stumbled on it before, anyway. It should be linked from the big site more prominently.

Re:Great initiative

[Sleepy]

> Of course it would be sad if tasks only got done because of bounties...

Would it, truly?

Sure, it would be "great" if there were coders out there who *wanted* these tedious/unglamourous/etc. tasks. This is the advantage of commercial development ("I am your boss - you do your job").

Humans are individualistic, and appreciate recognition. These tasks are important but - once implimented - users will never think twice about the feature and whoever made it possible.

If these tasks only get done because of the bounties, so what? Think of it as getting paid to work on free software. For many folks, this is a dream job.

Re:peace

[Anonymous Coward]

That's Everquest, asshole.

Interesting concept

[daserver]

This is very interesting concept, image someone setting up a bounty server for free software (in general) where people could donate money to bounties on any free software project and hackers could claim the money ones they've solved it.

Re:Interesting concept

[fmileto]

As soon as this servers up, I'll put the first $300 to someone who can patch the APM code so that nividia's drivers don't cause X to lock up. or if Nvidia can fix their code hell I'll give them the money. Not $2500 but,hey I just want my laptop to sleep and run in 1600X1200 smoothly.

Re:Interesting concept

[debrain]

This is what I thought collab.net was created for, but that seems to have died. This idea is also represented, in a representative form, in Transgaming's voting system. It is a fantastic idea, as you have presented it, and I hope it comes to fruition.

Re:Interesting concept

[Sleuth]

Have you seen the RentACoder web site? Seems like they've done it already. Check out the
open bid requests lists in the upper right...

Re:Interesting concept

[GreyWolf3000]

That could be open to litigation.

I mean, what if the rules aren't always clear?

This wouldn't be a problem if the bounty were small, but what if bounties got to be in the five digits?

My point is, who's writing the rules? Who's determining if an entry has met all the criteria?

Re:Interesting concept

[GrassMunk]

Too bad rent-a-coder is also filled with loosers who want 'PHP website with all the bells and whistles from scratch to my specifications: $150'

Re:Interesting concept

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't think your laptop monitor will support 1200x1600.

Re:Interesting concept

[fmileto]

Dude,don't hate on me. My dell Inspiron8100 can and does support 1200x1600 but, can it not sleep thanks to the Nvidia Module.

Re:Interesting concept

[Saeger]

I would imagine the money would be put in escrow so that those who funded the project could verify that the end result wasn't a hackjob.

If 5,000 people put $10 toward fixing X, but the result is that X is only partially fixed according to the subjective judgement of those 5,000 people, then each contributor should be able to take back a certain percentage of their money from the pot before payday. Such a chargeback should stay on your record though, so if you're just a bait'n'switch cheapass your money won't be worth shit.

--

Re:Interesting concept

[AJWM]

It's been done. Twice.

I don't recall the names of either of the sites now, but several years ago there were at least two 'free software bounty' web sites, with slightly different models. One provided for people to propose projects and have others bid (promises of) money on the solution (increasing the pool for high-demand projects), the other (as I seem to recall) was a little more structured and the project requests were submitted with a predefined bonus by the submitter.

I guess it never caught on very well, I haven't heard of either of these in a couple of years.

Re:Interesting concept

[ralphclark]

Isn't that what collabnet's sourcexchange was about? It failed due to lack of interest.

There seems to be another similar service up and running now however.

Re:Interesting concept

[millette]

I'd mod you +1 Informative, but have no points.

Re:Interesting concept

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't a new concept, though. Its called Gift Economy.

GNU/Darwin done it,
Blender done it,
Xbox-Linux done it,
and perhaps less known examples exist too.

There are various differences and similarities between the indivudual projects, a freelance model and a model where companies fund a hacker. Analyze at will, commander!

Re:Interesting concept

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the first project should be adding a spell checker to Mozilla or Slashcode.

Re:Interesting concept

[Panaflex]

I often thought of working collab.net when it first appeared... the problem was the amount of buerocracy involved in the system, the amount of work put up by the developer which at any time could fail, and the whole process starts over.. Here's my thoughts:

1. More along the lines of slashdot would work better, with moderators scoring out the good and the bad.

2. Then a pot of sponsers can be setup once the issue closes.

3. After sponsership closes, then a functioal specification is written by potential developers.

4. Once a spec is accepted by a quorum of sponsers, then the developer goes and implements.

5. If he fails then others are allows to pickup where he left off, or the pot can be shelved.

The buerocracy of collab.net put me off the first time I read it... this is open source, and should be more relaxed, IMHO.

People want to have a hand in creating something great.. they just need an opportunity!

Just a few thoughts..
Pan

Re:Interesting concept

[larry bagina]

I'm a freelance Open Source consultant/programmer. Currently, I have a contract with a Fortune 1000 company, I'm overseeing a project to switch them to GNU/Linux/Open Source software.

As part of that project, we identify deficiencies in Open Source software, and pay for new features, etc. Depending on what software is, I may do it myself and submit it back to the author, but I also have a budget to pay others to do the work for me - usually one of the maintainers - sometimes cash, sometimes new hardware, sometimes pizza

It works out well, but the bounty opportunities aren't public. I don't know how the community would react if some big corporation put the bounty out there - some zealots would complain about it I'm sure (conflict of interest, buying out open source, etc), though that isn't an issue when gnome.org declares the bounty.

It might work out if gnome.org (for example) accepted RFF (requests for features) from companies and individuals along with a bounty, maybe did some limited screening, and then made the bounty available, so the programmers wouldn't know who requested the feature.

Re:Interesting concept

[AstroDrabb]

Hmm, this got me thinking. I think a /. moderation approach would work great.

Any number of projects could register with the site and supply a Pay Pal account. All the regiestered projects would be put into category such as Net->MUA or Audio->MP3->Player, etc.

Now, users can register with the site and donate money. For every dollar, they are given one voting point that they can vote any registered project. On the first of the month, the totals for all projects are shown, and then those projects are paid through Pay Pal.

So for example, let us say that there are 100 projects registered and users have donated $1,000 for the month. project Foo had 238 votes, so project Foo would have $238 dollars placed into thier account. Project Bar had 27, votes, so project Bar gets $27 dollars placed into thier account. So on and so on until all the money has been dispensed according to how the users voted.

This method is good because it does not require paying a developer or team do implement feature X and hoping it gets done. There could be a feed back forum where the voting users send request to the developers. This system would be self regulating. For example, if a new project Foo2 comes out and it is cool but still alpha/beta quality, users could send votes(read money) to this Foo2. However, if the devlepers don't deliver the goods, less users will vote for them next month, and the months after that. So if the developers want to continue to get votes, they will need to deliver and keep thier user community happy.

Also, the system would also prevent bogus projects from making annoucements about great new app X-Tream and never delivering anything. For a project to be registered, they would have to have at least a functional alpha quality proto-type. So apps will work their way to the top of the donation scale by earning a reputation.

This is obviously rough around the edges, though I think a system similar to this could work out well. I wouldn't have a problem donating $10 a month to this, think if we had 10,000 users donating $5-$10 a month.

Re:Interesting concept

[eadon-com]

This idea is fascinating, it applies to open source what the brilliant, prolific mathematician Paul Erdos (of Erdos Number fame) used to do: offer rewards for proofs of problems he himself couldn't solve.

I think that the point that people are missing is that bounties will create contests, and there will be kudos to programmers that win. This is very exciting because, as someone pointed out before, this will motivate people to do the jobs that are important for, say, usability, but which people consider too difficult, too boring, too time consuming, too unrewarding, etc

- Eadon

Re:Interesting concept

[Sleuth]

Yeah, it's got a lot more homework/no dollars projects than I'd like to see.

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

i have yet to see an app that requires gnome integration.

so what if gnumeric is much more capable of utilizing the features of gnome in the future.

so you get a lack of extra features in xfce.

its really not that big a deal. god forbid people try to make a complete environment that works well together as well as individually.

Re:Really a good idea?

[Brandybuck]

It's even worse with many GTK+ programs sticking to gtk1 instead of moving on to gtk2. Thus you end up with duplicate libraries. For instance, I use Gimp and Dia all the time. But Gimp (stable) is a gtk1 program while Dia is a gtk2 program. So I decided to go to the development version of Gimp to eliminate the redundancy, only to find that Xmms still used gtk1. Aaargh!

conference

[Anonymous Coward]

damnit, im at the conference right now and i started on the gaim/evo bounty earlier, and of course its one of the 2 posted on the front page

thanks slashdot ;)

Re:Gnome translate-o-matic.

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it you won't take the bounty?

What an excellent idea...

[D-Cypell]

If there is one clear area where microsoft leads the field its application integration. Obviously the centralized control make this much more achievable.

In the long-term it may be more effective to build a high-level API to allow this integration. Perhaps some kind of built in RDBMS with a well defined schema for commonly shared application data. Several static tables to provide an area for common data (Contacts, Favourite websites/ftp servers etc) plus an extensible area for application specific data.

If the open source community had a well-defined process (shock horror!!) to request changes to the schema we could begin to provide the kind of application integration currently on offer by MS.

Integrating Gaim with Evolution is great but surely a strategy for integration email clients with IM clients in the general sense would be much more valuable.

Definatly a move in the right direction though!

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and we all know too well how IE and MSN MEssenger integrate with outlook to give us that warm fuzzy feeling of security.

Integration is nice and all but on a live network, its dangerous.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

You should try KDE. Load it with all of its apps and I think you'll be quite surprised by how well it works together. Everything drags and drops together and if you stick to K* apps(ala sticking with IE, Office, etc) its a seemless experience. Actually its better and more full featured than a stock MS Windows install by far. In truth as far as "application integration" goes, KDE is king of all opensource in that regard. It will be nice once all of the "Gnome apps" are gtk2 and work as well together as their KDE counterparts do.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[fiiz]

Well you are quite right: kde does it extremely well but not with gnome or other WMs, and this is not achieved within gnome either.
But wouldn't something like that imply some sort of middleware that does the dirty work? Something of an API between X and the window manager (uck! too many layers!)
I guess that's part of the reason behind freedesktop.org though, and I'm not sure it would be that simple to implement in the short run.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[bobthemuse]

Hmmm.... maybe we could call it a "registry"?

Re:What an excellent idea...

[D-Cypell]

Well spotted ;o)

Actually this occured to me just after clicking submit. However, I do think there are better ways of implementing it than the way the windows registry works, but really the concept of even the windows registry is not such a bad one.

My biggest complaint on the windows registry is that if things get corrupted in there you can get some really odd behaviour from your applications.

If the central datastore was used as a tool rather than a central (required) part of the operating system the implemenation should be superior. Windows developers tend to assume the registry is totally fault tolerant and apps tend to rely on it too much IMHO.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Makarakalax]

Also it's worth noting that Kopete and the KAddressBook are integrated in KDE 3.2. Done without an incentive of $2500 too :)

Re:What an excellent idea...

[oo_waratah]

What you say is true and when you claim the bounty you carefully document the standard interface that you defined for evolution (probably has one) and the plugin for gaim to that standard plugin (guessing but this is probably local now).

Re:What an excellent idea...

[bobthemuse]

Not only that, but enhanced security as well. If a central repository exists which stores user information in a well documented format (as opposed to the registry, which every program uses differently), then a trojan/virus/malware might be able to access all your contact information. I believe such a thing should be treated similar to some proposed electronic ID cards, where the system prompts the user as to what information a program needs (at least the first time), and the user has to give permission somehow....

Re:What an excellent idea...

[D-Cypell]

Also true, although this repository doesnt enable the writers of this malicious programs to do this it just makes it easier.

By the same token you could write the worm to scan files currently used by evolution or gaim. If you add to that list all popular email clients and im clients you can do exactly this already.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

"In the long-term it may be more effective to build a high-level API to allow this integration."

We already have it. It is called kdelibs. Thanks for playing.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[The Analog Kid]

I'd use KDE, however it to me just feels too bloated. I don't know why, it just does to me. Gnome to me feels like the perfect balence between minimalist, and bloatware. I'm sure I could streamline it if I want to but I don't have the time, however 3.2 does look very interesting.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to use KDE, the I tried Gnome 2.2...

I've considered going back to try out the new 3.2 betas, but the thought of using a desktop funded by SCO is just too painful to bear.

Re:What an excellent idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually this occured to me just after clicking submit. However, I do think there are better ways of implementing it than the way the windows registry works, but really the concept of even the windows registry is not such a bad one.

That's why gnome has gconf, which uses xml and has a nice API.
http://www.gnome.org/learn/admin-guide/2.4/g conf-0 .html

Sssshhh...

[mattjb0010]

Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. We're hunting integwation features!

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I decided to go to the development version of Gimp to eliminate the redundancy, only to find that Xmms still used gtk1. Aaargh!

You could always set a bounty for a gtk2 xmms port }:)

Re:That is really cool.

[Spider[DAC]]

According to IRC (ergo, its a rumour) Novell donated 25k to Gnome Foundation to setup this. Gnome Foundation then organized it and push it along with doing the screening and judging.

Slashdot GNOME Logo

[sebol]

Slashdot's gnome Logo is outdated

The current gnome logo is more than 1 year old.

This is the new one:-
http://gnomedesktop.org/images/topics/gnomenew.png

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot's gnome Logo is outdated

trying... to... care... but... can't...

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[fiiz]

Well that's kind of the point of slashdot logos dude.
Have you seen how old the sgi one is?

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[fsterman]

They have 10 for Apple, and old Gnome one, and NONE for Gentoo, Buggers!

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't be used because it's a PNG.

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[dossen]

Well, that logo happens to be way cool, IMHO, and I can't see why sgi stopped using it. But that's just me talking.

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[Anonymous Coward]

dude that logo is still outdated. pick up the new one at http://www.goatse.cx/loopback.jpg

Re:Slashdot GNOME Logo

[amorsen]

The old SGI logo stands for the hope that SGI will one day returns to both its old coolness and its real logo.

Bounty server...

[Hanzie]

Mod parent up.

I think this is a great idea. You think of something you really want, go to the bounty server and give it a price. If other people think it's worth kicking into, it'll add to the donation pot.

I think you've come up with another way to make money with free software.

The donators could also choose which licenses they'd accept the software to be released under.

This would also be interesting to try out with closed-source software. See how many donations are available.

I guess with the closed source option, you'd have to specify with whom you'd be willing to share the source. If I were donating 10,000 to get a closed source program that scours the stock market reports and lists the fast moving stocks, I don't think I'd like to share that particular program with the other two guys who bid +$3.28 each.

Re:Bounty server...

[pVoid]

While I applaud your enthousiasm, I think this has very little chance of actually working.

Why? because of a very dangerous thing called "scope-creep". I freelance, and get small contracts (< $20k). I've worked in big contract shops before, multi million dollar software being designed and implemented a la carte for our custommers, and yet, despite all that experience in large shops, it's extremely difficult with even the smallest project to first nail a solid technical spec document, and then to stick to it.

Now this is when I'm dealing one on one with the client, over phone etc... Imagine what this scenario would be like on an online forum...

Unmanageable to the nth degree, methinks.

Re:Bounty server...

[Hanzie]

First off, I agree with you. Putting this system onto a bounty server would be very hard to work, if not impossible.

Perhaps it might be possible to change the system, and let it adapt?

The first purpose of the bounty server is open source projects needed. It would be pretty simple to implement it. Then, as the closed-folks move in and take advantage, they'd have to conform to the rules of the new playground.

For large and complicated stuff, it definetly wouldn't work that way at first. And a good thing too, since I imagine quite a bit of the high quality software libre comes from folks like you, who program for a living, as well as altruism.

However, this could also work to your advantage, since it would allow you to negotiate the high level stuff, then bid out software contracts in small, easy to digest chunks, on the bounty server.

Frankly, I'd imagine that the solid technical spec document is at least half of the work, and probably the most creative part, to boot.

Good luck.

Re:Bounty server...

[Saeger]

I think you've come up with another way to make money with free software.

This is just a variation of the Street Performer Protocol: People pool their money to fund the scarce CREATION of a unique work they want put into the public domain (rather than paying for artificially scarce COPIES of data).

--

Re:Bounty server...

[sdcharle]

Amen to that. Also, the question of acceptance criteria comes into play. Difficult sometimes to get exactly what one client wants, now imagine trying to satisfy every joker who kicked in his lunch money to your project. How/when would a project funded like this be considered done?

With these Gnome bounties, it seems doable because you have a relatively small and focused group making these calls.

Re:Bounty server...

[FryGuy1013]

PHPEdit (phpedit.net) uses a similar method to develop their software. Basically their software is free, and if you want features you donate and they will implement them after reaching a certain commitment level based on the number of hours it will take to add the feature. The work is done by their team presumably, so it's not really for open source projects, just an innovative way to "sell" the product.

Re:Bounty server...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... I must say I'm pleasantly surprised by such a creative suggestion.

It actually sounds like a decent plan... forgive my attitude, I'm always baffled when this sort of situation occurs on /.

-pVoid.

Re:Bounty server...

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when Steven King tried this experiment a few years back and it didn't work. Too many people freeloaded off the few people who would pay to have new chapters written. In the end people would rather pay to own a copy of something that is a known quantity.

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have a look at a GTK2 xmms : BMP

Slashdot GNOME icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the GNOME Foundation should offer a bounty for changing the old Slashdot GNOME icon.
Plueeeease, it can't be so difficult, can it?

rubinstein

Best of both worlds

[Space cowboy]

So, the "communist lefty hippy" types are happily beavering away on whatever takes their fancy (some odd pointer relocation optimisation, or whatnot :-)

And the mercenary potential-captains-of-industry types suddenly see pecuniary advantage in the OS stuff. Perhaps they'll even stay around afterwards.

Good idea :-)

Note - for the humour-impaired, neither characterisation is intended to be taken too seriously...

Simon.

Re:Best of both worlds

[ScrewMaster]

I don't take anything I read on Slashdot too seriously, but there's more than a little truth to what you said.

Re:That is really cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how Novell got Gnome to pay for developing their new email client?

Of course. I'm sure the gnome foundation got all those bucks from donations, and decided to use them to improve Novell Desktop. Not the other way around.

(rolls eyes)

Re:peace

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's Asheron's Call, dipshit.

Motivation

[Shazow]

I think it's an excellent idea. If someone could only centralize a 'code bounty' site or something where people could list what they want and offer money, and other people could join in and add money to the pot, then once it's done, the person/group that comes up with it gets the money and the whole thing gets put up as open source. That way, everyone's benefitting.

I think the only thing that the open source community is suffering from is lack of motivation. This would give a perfect opportunity to support the community and push it further.

- shazow

Re:The Linux Desktop?

[Anonymous Coward]

And since when did hackers need money to hack?

I don't know what you do, but I need money to eat and stuff. And if I don't eat, I die and can't hack (well, actually I never tried hacking while dead, perhaps it could work).

Why can't those making the money, i.e. Ximian / Novell / SUN do the work for their profits?

I too find it pretty offensive that people from outside Ximian/Novell can get money for contributing to an open source project. Oh, wait...

Re:The Linux Desktop?

[Anonymous Coward]

"And since when did hackers need money to hack?"

since they raised the price of heroin
durrr

xmms is out...try beep

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you don't seem to mind trying development level applications, such as the Gtk2 version of Gimp; there's a fork of xmms called `beep' that uses Gtk2: http://linux-media.net/beep/

Finally better LDAP support

[Rheingold]

I've been wishing for better LDAP support in Evolution (and MUAs in general), and wrote up a page on my Wiki about Writable LDAP Addressbooks. Looks like they've got at least on covered.

Re:Finally better LDAP support

[Rheingold]

Other things I'd like to see...

• Evo plug-in for OpenGroupware.org (I know, one's in the works). Would be nice if it could sync OGo with Palm (OGo has server already).
• Ability to change keybindings in Evo like you can in regular GNOME apps (Evo uses Bonobo, which makes it different; apparently you can hack the XML files to change them, but it's not easy and I was only partially successful).
• Ability to store Drafts and other meta-folders on an IMAP server.
• Fewer crashes :)
• There are probably more...

Hah!

[oberondarksoul]

And they said 'open source' didn't pay... *runs*

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

theres a gtk 2 version of xmms now also... its called beep

http://linux-media.net/beep/

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't Evolution integrated with Gnome to some extent (at least highly dependant upon it)?

Sounds like...

[Stile 65]

...an adaptation of the Open Code Market idea. I'm glad the open source community is exploring more and more ways to make a living while creating free software.

Someone had to say it...

[JessLeah]

"Bounty hunters. We don't need that scum."

Re:Someone had to say it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful, coders! We all know what happened to the last bounty hunter that crossed Lando.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE is much closer to this, as they PLANNED ahead, and didn't just wing-it since it was 'pretty'.

I think what you say is pretty unfair to gnome. Look at the bounties. Most of them are related to integration with apps that aren't *officially* part of the gnome desktop, such as evolution, gaim and openoffice.

It even looks like they are trying hard to integrate them with gnome before making them part of the desktop, so the effort on mechanisms for shared information and intercommunications seems to be there.

Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[torian]

While there is no doubt that Gnome is visually attractive, has there been any empirical evaluation of Gnome from a human-computer interaction perspective, i.e. a usability study? I've certainly never come across any such testing in relation to Gnome, which is worrying.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[Anonymous Coward]

While there is no doubt that Gnome is visually attractive, has there been any empirical evaluation of Gnome from a human-computer interaction perspective, i.e. a usability study? I've certainly never come across any such testing in relation to Gnome, which is worrying.

Don't worry so much.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, I heard Sun did a few usability tests with GNOME a while ago.. but unfortunatly, it was done by Sun, a company who has had a pretty bad track record with usability (the monstrosities known as CDE and StarOffice come to mind).

Perhaps this bounty thing would be a good incentive to pay a group to do some real HCI testing. It would take a whole lot more money than $3000 though.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[LNX Flocki]

There has been a usability study two years ago. It was funded by Sun and based on Gnome 1.4 - this study is the base for the Gnome HIG and Gnome 2.x
It would be interesting to do a follow up on that test though and see what has actually been implemented since.

By the way, the study can be found here

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[dominator]

Sun spent a bunch of time and money toward usability studies and such, which ultimately contributed toward the GNOME "HIG" (Human Interface Guidelines). More info available at:

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/

There's a wealth of information under there. The Sun studies, conducted in March 2001, can be found here. I wouldn't be too "worried" if I were you.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[anagama]

I'm not trolling, just criticising. Every time I've used Gnome for a while, something happens (I imagine it is something I do but for the life of me, I can't say what) and then it becomes horribly tweaked, e.g., I'll try to sign in and all I get are bunches of error message boxes. I don't have that kind of issue w/ KDE. Maybe I use it wrong ... but in terms of usuablity, I think it would be way more useful if it was less fragile.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're worried about it, fund it or do it yourself. Aint open source grand?

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a bad GNOME installation. If you're on
Red Hat 7.3, 8.0 and 9 or SuSE 8.2, you might want to try http://ximian.com/.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[anagama]

I am using rh9, and I did try Ximian. After that, things got really out of hand.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[EngMedic]

I reccomend you head on over to Ars . They've posted a review of gnome 2.4 and it's compliance to the HIG. Looks very nice, actually, especially with respect to useability for people with disabilities, and also with support for multiple languages. So it looks like the newer gnome builds are aiming for (and apparently hitting) useability compliance standards.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, there has. And GNOME still doesn't have alphabetical keybindings for the main menu (a la IceWM, KDE and Windows bloody 95!).

Windows can't be moved off the top of the screen. There's no wireframe mode in the stock sources (essential for networked-X operation in factories, schools etc).

For all the supposed "UI work" done on GNOME, they've made some terribly elementary mistakes.

Re:Gnome human-computer interaction evaluation

[cduffy]

Just curious, are you using any variety of nontraditional filesystem (particularly, AFS)? I've seen such problems related to old sessions of GConfd, bonobo-activation-server and the like losing their tickets (because they don't exit as soon as the user logs out, but rather stick around a few minutes more -- by which time they've lost the ability to write to the user's home directory because the user, in logging out, unlogged their token).

Fixing that such that these daemons exit as soon as the last client disconnects is a TODO, as I understand it -- but it'd certainly be nice if it became higher-priority.

What about icalshare.com?

[mccalli]

No need for the $15. Head off over to icalshare.com instead. It's an excellent resource for shared calendars, and I'm making use of a few from there (using Apple's iCal).

Cheers,
Ian

Re: What about icalshare.com?

[the_2nd_coming]

umm, are any of them ones that Gnome would like? as in GPLed files? no? well then I suggest you throw together some ical calanders and get some money.

Re: What about icalshare.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

So your solution is that the free software community should just give up, throw in the towel, and buy Macs? Nice try, salesbot. I've noticed that every time someone mentions a new open-source project, there's always at least one mac zealot telling them to "give up, you'll never be as good as Apple". Thanks a lot. I'm sure everyone here appreciates your patronizing attitude and total disrespect for other people's OS choices. You complain that Microsoft has a monopoly, yet you discourage others from creating their own software, instead trying to strengthen Apple's own mini-monopoly position (as Bill Gates Sr. said, "Apple is Microsoft's 'mini-me'"). It's obvious from the arrogant attitudes of mac users on these boards that if Apple ever gets more marketshare, they'll be just like MS, monopolistic, predatory, dishonest, and aggressive.

You don't seem to even realize that your suggestion transforms the Free Software community from a strong, vibrant, creative, community into a bunch of mass-market consumers, do you... I use a Mac, and I'd NEVER try to convince open-source coders to give up and jump on the bandwagon. They're the good guys. We're not. They have ethics and are working to make the world a better, freer place. I bought a Mac because I wanted to make porn DVDs from pirated downloads and because PowerBooks look cool. If the GNU people want to create something free for the world to benefit from, only the most hardened astroturfer would try to stop that progress and replace it with sales for Apple. Shame on you.

Re:I'll collect the bounty for a dead desktop...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see it now...

News flash: Astronomers have discovered an asteroid on collision course with the Earth. It will wipe out civilisation with its diameter of about 38 milliTexas.

As one example of the huge psychological impact this is having on people, an anonymous man wearing a Linux t-shirt came and payed $20 to the astronomers, mumbling something about the existence of gnomes and a written promise made on some website. May God have mercy upon his soul.

Re:That is really cool.

[ChrisUK]

I wonder how Novell got Gnome to pay for developing their new email client?

Novell are paying for the bounty. (They're giving the money ($25k) to the Gnome Foundation, who give it to us.)

So, that's how.

- Chris. (At the Gnome Summit.)

Re:The Linux Desktop?

[Skeezix]

Since when did GNOME become the Linux desktop?

The bounty page says that they are trying to achieve integration between key components of the linux desktop. Evolution, OpenOffice.org, and gaim, are a few key components of the linux desktop. You may choose not to use them, but that doesn't make the statement false.

And since when did hackers need money to hack?

Hackers don't necessarily need money in order to hack. You miss the point of this contest. The point is, it's a win-win situation. If you are a hacker and could use some extra money, now you have some extra motivation to grab a task and work on it. And it's a win for Novell, who I hear donated the funding for this. So my question is, why are you so negative?

And where does this leaves the previous claims of GNOME being "integrated"?

There is always room for improvement, wouldn't you say?

Why can't those making the money, i.e. Ximian / Novell / SUN do the work for their profits?

They do. But now those outside Novell, etc. have a chance to make some money and contribute to our favourite desktop.

Re:bugs?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a matter of time, my friend. If everyone waited until all the bug were fixed before doing anything, ti would be a mighty boring place.

LOOK OUT

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like all of the moderators are Gnome users. So far, any post that didn't clearly state how great Gnome is has been moderated as a Troll.

I know you weren't trolling but, simply stating your opinion about Gnome, which is clearly supported by the facts. But, tonight the mods are all Gnomes.

Re:LOOK OUT

[Anonymous Coward]

You would have got some mod points if you'd worked some gnome/troll joke in there.

Re:LOOK OUT

[Anonymous Coward]

>> It looks like all of the moderators are Gnome users.

I don't know about this, but I have the impression that North America (US, Canada & Mexico, to a degree) very much prefer Gnome, while the rest of the world (including Europe) finds KDE better.

Maybe I'm biased (I'm from Brasil and here KDE rules, AFAIK), but in all honesty, Gnome has cuter looks, even taking into account that KDE apps are much more adherent to a chosen theme.

Re:LOOK OUT

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno if that division really exists... and if it does, it's pretty sad, because on the face of it they're both pretty shitty desktops.

GNOME only gets cuter looks once you theme it up beyond all recognition. Fact is it looks like complete and total shit out of the box, and to me, GNOME apps 'feel' a lot worse than KDE ones do. There's also a lot of old/simplistic/un-worked-on stuff in and around GNOME that makes it look bad. And the whole less-options-means-better-experience thing really pisses me off.

I'd take KDE anyday. Hmmm, I'm not Nth American either. But I don't think that's a factor :)

GNOME = shit, KDE = slightly less smelly

Are they using Apple as the defacto design target?

[93 Escort Wagon]

I know this is likely to be modded as a troll, but...

It sure looks like Gnome 2 has been basically trying to turn into OS X. I remember asking on gnome-devel and gnome-list, back in the pre-Gnome2 days, why things like button order were changing between 1.4 and 2. After a lot of hemming and hawing the final answer seemed to be "because Apple does it this way, and they're known for user friendly design". The hoped-for Evolution + Gaim interoperation looks to be a clone of the way iChat and Mail.app work together. Looking through the bounty list, a lot of the UI stuff strikes me the same way.

Don't get me wrong; I think OS X is the best user interface available. But if they are not trying to do anything original, why don't they just close up shop and tell folks to "just buy a Mac"?

This is what I wanted!

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

See my previous post for more details. This could be the future of OSS.

Is there Microsoft behind this story?

[Pan T. Hose]

OK, here goes my precious Karma, but anyway---am I the only one who under the impression of this story has read the headline as Microsoft Offers A Bounty On Gnome.org Desktop Integrators?

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the same could be said about KDE and accessibility. But since both projects are trying to fix the problems, I find these type of comments pretty useless.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Anonymous Coward]

debian doesn't really do either by default.. well maybe it does, but its so easy to tell it not to install one or the other, that it doesn't count.

Hopefully

[SargeZT]

They don't get Boba Fett in on this. It'd be the end of Geek income as we know it.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Wesley Felter]

Maybe GNOME is targeting people who want Mac OS but can't afford Mac hardware.

This proof F/OSS has failed, and spectacularly.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is quite obvious that this "Overt Sauce" model is clearly breaked! GNOME is resorting to Capitalism to finish what Communism could not accomplish. The national nightmare of OSS is over!!!!

First Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

First MS issues a bounty for the virus writers. Now GNOME issues bounties for GUI integration. To those, I have two unrelated comments:

1) How many wulongs is that and has anyone seen Radical Edward recently?

2) Anyone know how to climb out of the pit of sarlac so I can get back to work doing what I do best?

Bah!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell wants a smelly foot on their desktop anyway?

Re:Bah!!!

[tigert]

Rob Malda apparently ;-)

We've been sending him a new one for ages but I guess it wont fit the legacy slashdot page style according to him :^)

Tig

Re:Bah!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lazy ass probably forgot where the icon directory is.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[BohKnower]

Dawn, no bount for the file selector.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Carewolf]

Debian has no default. You have to choose between GNOME and KDE.

Debian's KDE support today is superb, only rivaled by SuSE.

(I think the misunderstandment that Debian is a GNOME-dist comes from the the 2.2-time when they didnt distribute KDE at all, because of license issues)

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Anonymous Coward]

cause life without stevie is wonderful

Don't start that accessibility shit! DUMBASS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm deaf and have tried using Gnome everytime they have released a major version. And yet, in spite of their claims of great accessibility features, Gnome offers no such features for those with my very common disability.

Interestingly, for all of the so called lacking of accessibility features in KDE, I find KDE to be the eaiest to use and it is the preferred desktop for those with my disability.

Yup.. competition=great

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, KDE is far behind GNOME in terms of accessibility, and GNOME is far behind KDE in application integration.

This is the typical pattern with KDE and GNOME. GNOME 1.4 lacked KDE's use of use, and thus focused on usability in GNOME 2.0. KDE 2.2 lacked GNOME 1.4's prettyness, so they focused on prettyness in KDE 3.0.

I'm currently a happy GNOME 2.4 user, but I've switched between KDE and GNOME many times. I started out with KDE 1.2, used GNOME 1.2 and 1.4, used XP for a while, then KDE 3.0 and 3.1, and then GNOME 2.4. I have no clue what I'll use between KDE 3.2 and GNOME 2.4. The competition between the two fuels two great desktops.

Its called "Rudi"

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like the gnome developers want to catch up to the quality of KDE Rudi. Rudi will become known as KDE 3.2 once it is stable.

You can get Rudi RPM's with Mandrake Cooker. Try it today, you won't EVER want to go back to gnome EVER again.

Features and Simplicity, complete with usable file duologue!

MAPI Bounty

[smartin]

I'm willing to give $100 to anyone that can create an interface between Mozilla, Evolution, whatever to an exchange server runing in proprietary MAPI mode, so that i no longer need to use Outhouse to read my email at work.

Re:MAPI Bounty

[omega9]

Ximian Connector: $69 personal use license.

http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/

Of course, I'll sell you one for $100 and pocket the $31 if it makes you feel better.

Re:MAPI Bounty

[Anonymous Coward]

Ximian Connector has MAPI support? As far as I can tell, it only works when WebDAV support in excagnage.

That's not the same thing, because the vast majority of exchange servers don't have this enabled, and thus Connector is usless for the vast majority of users, including me. Of course, I could request our sysadmins to turn it on, but I'd think they'd tell me to just use outlook =D

Re:MAPI Bounty

[smartin]

Requires exchange 2000 and only works with webdav turned on. Bought one, it was no good for me as it turnes out our exchange server was version 5 or something.

Re:MAPI Bounty

[steve_l]

MAPI really means 'MAIL API'; its the API that apps wanting to talk to a mail program use.

Exchange is simply a MAPI implementation, using some secret RPC mechanism that is almost a reference 'how not to write a distributed application' design. I guess it is probably documented in the NDA-only, RAND-licensed settlement protocols, but that is no use whatsoever.

Maybe we could use OLE automation to talk to outlook, and bridge into the exchange database that way. That is probably what the WindowsCE synchonisation stuff does, after all.

-steve

Re:MAPI Bounty

[smartin]

This is something that M$ should be forced to reveal under the terms of their settlement.

But i think you are on the right track, while it would be great to break the rpc protocol and create a native adapter, i'd personally be willing to run a proxy on a windows box (i'm forced to run windows and use outlook anyway). or even better yet, run the proxy under wine.

Re:MAPI Bounty

[hey]

FreeDCE is a Linux implementation of MS-RPC and DCOM. Could be a nice starting point. I have used to successfully talk between a Windows server and a Linux client app.

Re:MAPI Bounty

[rtaylor]

Yup.. so now you have the admins to setup (and maintain!) a new PC specifically for outlook as viruses hinder your work otherwise.

Re:Really a good idea?

[ozzmosis]

Yeah, but bloatware runs very well on newer hardware (which lots of people have and use). You don't always have to use the latest and greastest software to get something done. Like you said XFCE works great for you on a p133, but so does gnome 1.x. gnome 1.x may be old but it runs well on a p133.

Why synchronization?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't have been more easy for Evolution, Gaim and other programs to share a single addressbook?!

Learn from KDE, where Kopete is now dumping it's own contact list in order to share the same Kaddressbook with Kontact, KMail and any other KDE program.

Why making things more complicated instead of making them simplier?

Re:Why synchronization?!

[Anonymous Coward]

GNOME team has serious not-invented-here syndrome. Same reason they reinvented _EVERYTHING_ they have done. They will continue this fashion until they finally realize that it is a completely lost cause (desktop *ix) and discover that the desktop paradigm is already DEAD. Even that particular Microsoft desktop everyone loves to loathe. And even Microsoft knows this...

Re:Why synchronization?!

[donscarletti]

Good point, centralisation of data is always the best idea. But if I saw one more K in that last post I think I would have flipped out.

Re:Why synchronization?!

[IamTheRealMike]

Wouldn't have been more easy for Evolution, Gaim and other programs to share a single addressbook?!

Er, maybe, but :

a) Gaim doesn't have an addressbook. It has a buddy list. That's a very different thing. Some buddies won't even have email addresses associated with them (which I guess is the key they're using).

b) Gaim and Evolution were developed separately. Gaim won't be using any shared addressbook until it's a neutral standard, I'd guess, with multiple implementations (KAddressbook/Evo) working together.

c) Integration of what EXISTS and WORKS NOW is infinitely easier than inventing a completely new address book standard, getting Evolution to use it, Gaim to integrate with it etc. This can be done (in fact *is* being done right now, I'm watching it happen) in a matter of hours, not months or years.

Re:Why synchronization?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn from KDE, where Kopete is now dumping it's own contact list in order to share the same Kaddressbook with Kontact, KMail and any other KDE program.
I believe the technical problem is all the GNOME apps don't start with the same letter.

Re:Why synchronization?!

[Anonymous Coward]

its not synchronisation, it is to share the data.

this was a misquote by whomever posted the story.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Skeezix]

The new file selector for GNOME 2.6 is already being worked on by Federico and others.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[dave1g]

I think it has something to do with the Free/OS Software Community not liking to pay outrageous prices for things they know they could put together themselves....

The answer of "Buy a Mac" was just stupid

Dumb Ass Mac Zealots always trying to push Jobs' wares....UGH!

We don't need this

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't need to be paid for implementing these kind of features.. we just need to know what the public wants and what the projects needs. And if the public wants it, then why don't any of the developers want it? And if they do, then why hasn't it been implemented already? Some of these features seem pretty trivial to implement to me.

Re:We don't need this

[MikeCapone]

We don't need to be paid for implementing these kind of features.. we just need to know what the public wants and what the projects needs. And if the public wants it, then why don't any of the developers want it? And if they do, then why hasn't it been implemented already? Some of these features seem pretty trivial to implement to me.

I'm not a coder, but I get the feeling that often things don't get done because they are boring and not glamourous enough; coders seem to like working on building fun new apps (even competing with other mature apps) better than consolidating, streamlining and integrating existing stuff.

YES!

[kuzb]

FINALLY, someone out there is getting the idea! You can't eat a "thank you", and while the amounts paid may or may not be worth the effort put in, it's something! Great incentive.

With even a little bit of cash out there for developers to earn, projects like gnome can go a lot farther, a lot faster IMO. My hat is off to you guys at gnome.org!

Heh! :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats *exactly* the same I thought! :-) Great news though.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Good god that looks ugly.. why didn't they use the win2k file selector like KDE did? it looks and works very well. *sigh*.. another two years of gtk file selector suckyness.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[tehanu]

The stupid thing about it is that whilst the button order Apple uses *may* be better in their usability tests, this is in the Mac environment where Apple can enforce consistency.

In a typical Linux desktop however, all of the non-GTK2 apps have the Windows button order. This includes things like all KDE programs, all GTK1 programs, Mozilla, OpenOffice, closed-source programs for Linux etc.

What is more confusing, a slightly less intuitive button order which is consistent across all apps (and incidentally the one that most new converts are probably used to already from their Windows days), or one where the button order changes all the time no matter how "intuitive" one of those button orders is? I find it difficult to believe any usability tests will find the 2nd option easier for Mr and Mrs Average to use.

I do admire Gnome's attempts to have HIG guidelines and I think it is a good thing, but sometimes I have to wonder if they really understand usability or if they are just blindly following Apple's guidelines without thought of how it works in the real world of the Linux desktop.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[donscarletti]

No, they are just using apple as a great example of system integration, and I can't say I disagree.

The interface of gnome is still quite unique in comparison to GNUstep which is a blatent NEXTstep rippoff so much so that they don't even bother denying it.

Gnome has been setting itself ambitious goals in system integration and I think that it is good that they have OSX so that they can aspire to reach its level of integration, though not its methods.

Right down to the flaws...

[mccalli]

A happy OS X user here, but this one certainly rings a bell:

Evolution's contact editor allows you to annotate a contact with the dates of their birthday and anniversary. However, these dates don't automatically copy themselves into your calendar...you won't see them when you glance through your schedule, and an alarm won't fire to warn you of a friend's upcoming birthday...Clearly, this is a travesty."

Indeed it is a travesty. And a travesty that exists between Apple's Address Book and iCal apps as well. You can get round it using software like Birthday Shifter, but this really ought to be in the main app's functionality.

Cheers,
Ian

Another KDE does this already

[pantherace]

KDE's control panel is a very good interface, and almost every app has a text file config (which the kde control panel modifies) That's for app settings

KDE 3.2 (using a cvs build of it now) uses a wallet to store information like that. Currently only konqueror (think like opera's storing passwords & such) & kopete (account information) use it, though I am willing to bet that by the next major version (or maybe first point release). I am willing to bet that kde will have it fully well before gnome.

First things first: installer

[zpok]

Hi there.

Let me introduce myself: I'm grandma, I'm dumb.

After having flamed a bit about Linux only being for those who are into Linux as opposed to Apple/Windows being for the vast masses who don't give a fuck, I was told that indeed Gnome was THE distro for the stupid (me).

Three days and 78 downloads later I'm still not closer to a functioning Gnome.

What's so hard - conceptually - about an installer that you know, just installs this shit and be done with it?

Ye gods, I really begin to doubt any linux person actually has an idea what user friendlyness actually means.

Rant over. When-if-I get this stupid dwarf installed, I may rant some more, but so far I think it has been admirable in its attempt to keep the stupid at bay...

Re:First things first: installer

[prockcore]

What's so hard - conceptually - about an installer that you know, just installs this shit and be done with it?


go here:

www.ximian.com

It has an installer you just run, it downloads and installs everything you need to run Gnome. Plus it installs RedCarpet for you, which will let you easily install additional software and keep your current software update.

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

Thanks, I will.

It seems this will install Gnome 2.2, but what the. If I can get into this dwarf, I can always update, I assume.

cheers!

Re:First things first: installer

[damiam]

What Linux distribution are you using? Red Hat, Fedora, and Debian should all give you a functioning GNOME desktop by default. The rest of them generally have it as an option during installation. If you're downloading 78 files to install GNOME, you're doing it the wrong way.

Re:First things first: installer

[Anonymous Coward]

Gnome doesn't run in windows, maybe that is your difficulty? Try something like a redhat or mandrake installation CD, and follow its easy on screen steps.

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

OK, thanks for the reactions!

See, I'm on OS X and have installed Darwin. That's where I'm at.

I've already asked some questions to the darwin-gnome usergroup, but to my great surprise no answers yet. (I was really polite :-)

So I guess so far I've been really stupid about this, expecting an integrated desktop came with what's needed to make it work. The Gnome website and manuals don't really say anything about that. Guess it must be genetically aquired knowledge ;-)
It's now become a longer term project and I'm going to try and learn how to install a fully functioning linux desktop on a mac.

Do I really need to buy a CD from somebody or other for that?

What I've learned already is that all those guys screaming "Linux is a kernel, not an OS" aren't kidding.

If I ever succeed, I guess I'll say "that was dumb". But right now I'm back at my previous assumption that Linux is for those who care about Linux. I'm gonna try and care a bit, see where it gets me. I must be crazy, I'm actually totally happy with OS X...

It would help to have no nonsense all-in installers for sissies like me. If you know where I can get one ...

Cheers

Re:First things first: installer

[damiam]

You can set up a GNOME desktop under Darwin, but it'll be a pain and probably won't work as well as under Linux. Darwin is mostly a development platform and isn't really meant to be user-friendly. Try installing a pre-configured Linux distribution, such as Mandrake or Yellow Dog. It should be much, much easier to set up.

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

Thanks for the advise. One question: which of those two are most dummy proof?

Cheers!

Re:First things first: installer

[Anonymous Coward]

Incompetence will clear out the gene pool just as quickly as malice. Nice try, grannie.

Re:First things first: installer

[damiam]

I don't know, as I've never used either (I don't own a Mac). However, they're both free to download, so you can try both if you want. (although you may have to dig a little to find Yellow Dog downloads)

Re:First things first: installer

[Anonymous Coward]

although you may have to dig a little to find Yellow Dog downloads

http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/

Pretty hard to find, I know.

Re:First things first: installer

[larry bagina]

two problems with your theory

1. If she is a granny, then she's already passed on her genes.
2. Being able to install gnome doesn't help you pass on your own genetic material.

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

Joking aside - and yes, I fear I've already spread my genes...

You shouldn't need a lot of competence to install an OS.

I've installed a lot of them, including Be and - shudder - Windows.

But I finally am getting the picture. Hopefully somewhere next week I'll be able to upgrade my gene-set with some Linux nollidj...

Re:First things first: installer

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone kill this crazy bitch and all of her genetically doomed progeny. Please.

Re:First things first: installer

[wasabii]

I think the majority of people here would rather you have competence to install an OS. Or at least, please do not connect whatever peice of shit you whip up to the internet to harm the rest of us okay? Go ask a tech to do it for you, then live with it. That's what grandma's do anyways.

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

Well that's nice... some context here: I'm definitely not trying to appeal to the mass of Linux users.

I'm only writing for those who think Desktop Linux for dummies is a good idea. As it turns out, that's rather a lot of people - maybe not the majority of /. but more than I suspected.

And one of the reasons I'm prepared to flaunt my own ignorance is that pro UserLinux people should see that the tactic of telling people computers are complicated and they should rely on their tech guy/spotty nephew for everything more complicated than opening Word has already failed ten times over.

Your comment is a reflection of that flawed thought. Not trying to piss you off, just telling you that if you'd be my linux techy/spotty grand-child, I'd fire you on the spot. And take away your root access. That'd teach you to be mean to granny.

I've had more than enough competence in the past to install a number of operating systems. Just not Linux. Now, if you're in favor of UserLinux and you don't see anything wrong with that picture you don't understand your userbase.

Anyway, I'm downloading a yellowdog linux distribution thanks to a helpful comment by someone who clearly loves his granny more than you do...

Re:First things first: installer

[zpok]

Everybody knows grannies love to talk to themselves...

I'm downloading Yellowdog - thanks to a helpful comment and hopefully will happily comment on how easy the install was...

All of you who're pissed off or think I am not "fit for Linux": sorry, I wasn't talking to you. Just to the people who think a UserLinux distro is a good thing.

This whole bounty thing is a good way to get people to care about things they usually - and understandably - wouldn't bother with.

And I do dig it's kind of insulting to read negative comments on free stuff this stupid granny hasn't even contributed to. But that can't be helped.

Re:First things first: installer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're unhappy with usability - try FreeBSD!

Curiously, I tried installing FreeBSD before any of the other free OS distributions out there. It was, admittedly, a bitch to install, but upgrading, installing etc is incredibly easy once it's done.

After tearing my hair out simply trying to get Kopete to install under Mandrake (I still haven't managed) I gave up, fired up my FreeBSD box, hit alt-F2, typed "Konsole", typed "cd /usr/ports/net/kopete" then make install clean" and lo and betide, it all appeared! No bull about missing dependencies, it just put it all there.
Every time I want to upgrade I type "portupgrade kopete" and again, it installs it all.

Even the "legendary" debian apt-get isn't that good.

Re:First things first: installer

[1iar_parad0x]

Frankly, he's (sorry "she's") dead on. All of your suggestions are probably too complicated for grandma. Frankly, Windows is probably too complicated. What grandma needs is an iMac. Something you really plug in and play. I'd love to see the results of a usability test with Linux. I think we'd all know the results.

Incidently if a good open source project for installation/UI comes along, I'd be willing to help.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Qzukk]

You have to choose between GNOME and KDE.

Thats funny, I chose Window Maker.

this is good...

[mantera]

What's more important than the money, though the money is fun, is to combine this with some form of contest-winning award that people can proudly feel happy about and can use it to bragg and boost up a CV if they need to show some objective evidence of expertise or something.

Make it a contest; contests are fun, and issue some prize certificates.

Bounty server / Royalty server

[Corpus_Callosum]

I have been designing (architecturally, i.e. in my head) a system for distribution of royalties and bounties for some time now. I believe that such a system could revolutionize not only open-source development, but many hertofore altruistic creative/intellectual property creation related tasks.

The basic idea behind a royalty server is to slowly collect dependencies between intellectual properties and attempt to draw commercial distributors (through public guilt and ridicule, if neccessary) into sharing their profits with the server. Other techniques would, of course, also be used, including bounties, donations and general marketing. The collected funds would be distributed according to a dependency graph to the community that created the target properties.

I am actually interested in finding some people who would like to work on this with me. I think the system could become self-sustaining reasonably fast (a portion of all collected moneys would be directed at the company running the server). But the really exciting part about this is that contributors could, theoretically, collect a check for as long as their contributions are in use in the wild.

Re:Bounty server / Royalty server

[greenrd]

OK, here's my email address:

$MY_SLASHDOT_USERNAME AT $MY_SLASHDOT_USERNAME DOT ORG.

How is your cunning plan going to work then?

Good question...

[Balinares]

> Why making things more complicated instead of making them
> simplier?

Ever tried to code against the Gnome API, and especially the integration features (bonobo et al)? Do give it a try.

I fear it's MUCH too late to make it simple.

So instead they monetize it. Interesting idea. Whatever works, I suppose...

But I'm not really sure what to think of it, honestly. That'd they'd have to involve money to have things that SHOULD be simple get done... But then, what do I know, maybe that's where open source is headed, I don't know.

a real hacker cannot be stopped by death

[donscarletti]

I never tried hacking while dead, perhaps it could work

Post humous software contribution is not as hard as it seems, you see, you need to have a child or a puppy dog jump over your corpse or get a nip from a friendly member of the coding dead. It allows one to code quite well for as long as one likes, possibly until HURD is usable.

There are a few drawbacks, you must work on evil projects of the night (gnome is actually a good example of this ever since they scrapped sawfish). You also may never see sunlight again, which for a hacker wouldn't make as much difference as it sounds like it should. You also no longer may eat italian food, which makes all but the least authentic varieties of pizza unavailable for lan parties. Diet is also a positive though as sucking the blood from a beautiful virgin's neck is the closest 50% of hackers get to a meaningful relationship.

If you are interested, just let one of the friendly members of our organisation give you a peck. You can find us in star-wars forums under the name "nerds for R-2", it is quite a broadening experience, I assure you.

:GARNOME

[EdMack]

Get the GARNOME script. Its as simple as going to the gnome-desktop directory and tryping make install

Re::GARNOME

[kidgenius]

Get the GARNOME script. Its as simple as going to the gnome-desktop directory and tryping make install

that's not solving the problem. telling someone to "go here and type..." is too much. make it clickable. the one thing that I have yet to figure out about Linux is why nothing just "works". Usually it does. But there are times where it would just be really really nice if instead of me having to go create a symbolic link somewhere, or add a line to my path, if the program just went and did it for me. Everyone always says though, "if you don't like it, change it", but I don't know how to code in perl, python, C, or whatever things are written in. It's just frustrating at times for things to be harder than they should be. I really don't see how hard some things are. In a way, it's just a half-assed approach. If someone doesn't like it, too bad, they can leave. I OTHO think that it would be great if instead of being elitist about Linux, welcome anyone and everyone that comes and try to make their stay as wonderful as possible. Here's a real example. I bought MatLab to install in linux. After the install is done, the user has to go edit some text file that describes the location of the cdrom drive, and the default web-browser, etc. It seems as if these values are already stored somewhere in Linux. I mean, Linux should know the location of your cd-drive. Why can't the line be edited for you automatically after the installer gets the location from the OS on its own? It's the tiny things like that that make linux un-userfriendly.

Re::GARNOME

[Daengbo]

Sounds more like a problem with MATLAB than Linux, but I though you were the genius...

Re::GARNOME

[kidgenius]

Yes, that is a MatLab specific problem, but it is, from what I have seen, a trend among Linux, Gnome, GNU, whatever you want to call em, applications

Re:Really a good idea?

[GrimReality]

You made your post sound like a troll, but I would like to support some of the stuff that you said.

When I tried out KDE, one thing that I found to be very impressive was the integration among the core applications and those non-core applications that are built as 'KDE applications'.

However, here is the catch, I am a GNOMEish person, (personal preference mainly) and when I use a KDE application (not a QT application), a whole load of stuff happens, and it is as if half of KDE is starting.

Your fears about something like this happening with GNOME is justified, and would like to run XFCE now and then and it would be great if GTK only apps were available.

In Debian packages, I have always found many gtk programs distributed as two packages, one for GNOME-ized and the other gtk-only, and I have found gtk-only versions to be faster and (since I am using GNOME 1.4, I do not get much benefit of integration).

You might have been modded down as a Troll, but your point is worth thinking about.

Thanks.

GrimReality
2003-11-23 01:52:46 UTC (2003-11-22 20:52:46 EST)

P.S.: Please don't call GNOME 'bloatware', I use GNOME 1.4 daily and has found it to be not-bloated. I have not used GNOME-2 much, but it seems to be a lot more simplified (and faster) than GNOME 1.4, so I don't think GNOME deserves to be called 'bloatware'.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Dumb Ass Mac Zealots always trying to push Jobs' wares....UGH!

You thing he is a Mac Zealot? Are you sure?

Who gains more if Linux (or Gnome, as suggested) closes shop?

I'd bet my red hat that if Linux steals 40% market share from Windows, more (dumb) people will be less impressed with Microsoft and Apple could actually have a better chance to survive...

No, I smell a monopolist conveniently defending the Mac... wolf in sheep skin, got it?

Re:Really a good idea?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a philosophic thing, a Zen thing: one should not use resources too much beyond the minimum which would solve the problem. This has nothing to do with sparing, it's more like ecological thinking...

Even if you can afford a powerful machine, using minimal programs is l33t. This does *not* mean working without graphics, or editing in hex. Really not.

It means being simple and honest, and not being vain.

Like Yoda, for instance. :-)

Why would that be sad?

[Inoshiro]

My time isn't free. I've had to spend a lot of money to get my education, as well as a lot of personal time I could've been using towards something else. As any economics student could tell you, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

This provides a nice feedback mechanism that allows non-programmers to reward programmers for "filling in" and doing what the non-programmers wanted to be done. It's a natural balance, and I consider it progress in how opensource is developed. One of the few sustainable ways we could keep Linus Torvalds working on the kernel 40 hours a week is by having IBM, Red Hat, et all contributing to his work, just like Red Hat employs Alan Cox, or any number of other examples.

Re:Why would that be sad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a free lunch. I learnt virtually everything I know by growing up with PD compilers, tools, commented code, docs, and GNU software. If that hadn't been available, I'd never be in the IT industry -- I simply didn't have the money for compilers etc, or reason to try them without getting a free trial first. Moreover, I find I know a lot more about this industry and my job than many people who paid for their education.

It's a very special kind of free lunch, actually, because I can now use what I know to give lots of other people free lunches in future. Basically, most of us do this because it's beneficial to us, and value the benefit it offers to others.

Re:Why would that be sad?

[cduffy]

As any economics student could tell you, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Of course. There are, however, nonmonetary benefits. One of the niftiest things about the open source model is that a great deal of progress is made because of some individual or organization making a change for their own purposes -- and the community as a whole benefitting -- without the necessity of money changing hands (except, of course, towards the employee who actually carried out a change made by a company).

Folks paying other folks to make improvements to Free Software is certainly a very good thing, and I doubt the parent poster argues with this. What I think the parent is arguing to be an unfortunate thing would be if the flow of improvements made for non-monetary reasons were to stop.

Of course, I don't see this as a very likely course of events -- unless it becomes almost universally cheaper to pay a 3rd party to make an improvement than to DIY. Perhaps outsourcing improvoments on OSS to $COUNTRY_WITH_LOW_COST_OF_LABOR might become popular? Of course, if this comes to pass, then all the better! Developers in $COUNTRY_WITH_LOW_COST_OF_LABOR will profit, and Free Software will receive improvements which might not have been fundable (with either time or money) if one had to pay the opportunity cost of DIY'ing rather than being able to pay a lower price to outsource.

Mouse gestures?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about integrated mouse gestures in the next version of Gnome? Everybody's doing it. I think it would be great to gesture left+right or somesuch to open Galleon or gesture right+down+left+up to open a terminal from the desktop.

Then they could get to work integrating common gestures across all applications.

Money is EVIL

[t0ny]

here it comes- gnome.org needs work done really bad, but the free people who are doing their work only want to address the fun stuff, like making another web browser. Perhaps 'free beer' open source can only get you so far, then you need to start offering some form of incentive.

Makes perfect sense to me. After all, if you are doing work for nothing, why the hell would anybody do the stuff which isnt fun or interesting?

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Anonymous Coward]

You chose... poorly.

Linux UI bounties project proposal

[AmVidia HQ]

1. List things to integrate and improve Linux UI on desktop (KDE, Gnome, etc. UI frameworks)
2. Get IBM, Redhat, etc. corporate support and funding
3. Attach weights to TODO items, distribute bounty $ by weights and total fundings available
4. ??
5. Uber Linux desktop (no, not profits this time.)

My rationale is that, as pointed out by some earlier comments, Linux UI's inconsistencies and often failure to work at all without hacking things around is due to no central direction and vision for UI design. IBM provides IT services in deploying OSS in companies while commercial distros like Redhat do QA on OSS packages, but besides KDE and Gnome, there needs to be a more coherent vision and a mean to make it happen.

If you are interested, I've created a temporary forum where we can discuss this further. Excuse the rest that's going on at the site ^^

Linux UI bounties project

Does bad code get rewarded?

[t_allardyce]

If people submit quick and dirty hack solutions do they still get the money? isnt that one of the problems with commercial software?

Re:Does bad code get rewarded?

[Ilan Volow]

Depends on whether you consider mimicking object-oriented design in C a quick and dirty hack.

Re:Does bad code get rewarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Read the conditions of entry. It must work first, but it must also be good code, since it may not be you maintaining it in the future.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Anonymous Coward]

lindows? sure, if you're too cheap to afford anything other than a $200 walmart PC, and too lazy to install anything else on it.

Free/Net/OpenBSD are also options.

Re:Pathetic

[Anonymous Coward]

"we"? Do you have a gnome in your pocket?

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why GNOME is a desktop environment and not merely a collection of applications. The point is to create GNOME applications for everything a user usually needs to do.

Sort of a Mindcraft of usability studies

[Ilan Volow]

Well, there was a usability study done by Sun. If I recall correctly, through much user testing, they discovered that the subjects (all sun employees) having to choose between 20 different clocks and having to navigate through really cluttered menu's (some of which had duplicate items) presented usability problems.

Supposedly Sun had folks trained in HCI doing this study. But I'm a little skeptical, as many of the worst designs a good HCI person would be able to spot without doing any user testing (they should still do user testing, of course, but they should have been able to catch the obvious ones without it).

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Ilan Volow]

Federico is a programmer. Programmers tend to screw up UI's further, not improve them.

I have few hopes for the 2.6 file selector.

The 'free' software idea

[fireteller2]

I don't mean to bait, but I have to say that this is an elegant and succinct demonstration of the fundamental flaw in the concept of 'free' software. The socialist idea that we will all do our best with no compensation other then the ability to use other people's work, has holes.

This model of idea weather applied to software or to government always makes the mistake of not accounting for human weaknesses. Free software works, to the degree that it does, based on the profit motive of ego. However, without money the boring work that doesn't boost the programmer's reputation has no profit value whatsoever, and this is where you find all the missing pieces in open source software. That and the duplication of effort, so that each programmer can plant his flag and get the ego boost that is his only reward, which is so prevalent in open source software.

My apologies if this is inflammatory, but it seems to me that this article does kind of prove the argument. It puts into question weather open source software can ever produce a product that is better then a for profit alternative. On the other hand this does not undermine the educational value of open source.

fire

Re:The 'free' software idea

[Anonymous Coward]

For all your high-falutin' language, you don't know how to use the word 'weather'. I have a suggestion where you can plant YOUR flag.

Re:The 'free' software idea

[rubberpaw]

Umm, where did you get that Free Software is socialistic? As Richard Stallman originally pointed out, Free Software is a great way to make money! In fact, most Free Software has been written by people who are working for profit.

Read the GNU Manifesto, and you will notice that Stallman has always suggested that people charge for their software. http://www.fsf.org/gnu/manifesto.html

Re:The 'free' software idea

[fireteller2]

I'm sorry but it is you who aren't familiar with the term socialism. I have read all of the FSF materials many years ago. I do not argue that one can make money from software written under the tenants of FSF, and calling it socialistic does not imply that either. I point out that the person making the money is not necessarily (and usually isn't) the person who wrote it, thereby eliminating profit motive. Free software is a community effort, profit or lack thereof is to the community, meaning it is socialist (Q.E.D.). Hence the failings that the gnome project is now having to work around, per the article and my original post.

fire

Re:The 'free' software idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, I think you haven't read the GPL and I think you should. The idea is to have code that you are free to do with as you please, it does not rule out getting remunerated for your work.

Re:The 'free' software idea

[zpok]

The free software idea imo works perfectly... to a certain extent.

What's different now is that specific things are expected in order to fit in a clearly outlined project plan.

Meaning: you have to walk in line. That's something you generally don't do for free. Hence the bounty.

Still I think this doesn't show a deficit, neither does it say anything about socialism - or in what sense the OSS is or should be socialist in nature. If it wasn't for all those "egotistic" flags already planted, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.

It just shows a clear limit to what you can expect people to do for free and when you have to offer incentives.

And that is something every government that is to an extent socialist in nature (not talking about failed communist/totalitarian experiments, talking about most western countries) takes into account as well. You're on the wrong track. It's not a weakness, it's a strength.

We should be glad there's a limit to what people do freely. Even if that makes running projects and governments more of a hassle.

Re:The 'free' software idea

[cduffy]

The socialist idea that we will all do our best with no compensation other then the ability to use other people's work, has holes. ...and describing that as a tenent of Free Software has even more holes.

This model of idea weather applied to software or to government always makes the mistake of not accounting for human weaknesses. Free software works, to the degree that it does, based on the profit motive of ego.

Really? Probably more of half of the work I've done on Free Software has been not because of ego but because I needed to get some work done (and someone was paying me). That includes a whole bunch of porting and packaging back at MontaVista Software, some fixes to GNOME (which my current employer uses as the desktop environment on our programming stations), and lots of assorted other miscellany (like porting the losetup crypto patches to work with more modern util-linux sources, which I just did two days ago in connection with a project I'm doing for work).

It puts into question weather open source software can ever produce a product that is better then a for profit alternative.

Since when was open source software ever not for profit? It's a cost sharing mechanism -- a way to minimize ones' cost centers such that one doesn't spend so much of the money made by ones' core business on silly things like operating systems, word processors or compilers, by spreading out the cost of developing these tools with other users of the same.

You're building up and attacking a complete strawman -- an "open source" environment which is composed of nothing but noncommercial contributions, and a "free software" culture which is innately broken if it cannot survive without commercial support. Nothing could be further from the truth: Open source is made up largely of commercial contributions from companies whose best interests are served (in terms of reducing their software costs) by making these contributions, and the Free Software culture thrives in the presence of commercial users who, in helping themselves, are obliged to assist others as well.

Because we are humans

[Kashif Shaikh]

"Looking through the bounty list, a lot of the UI stuff strikes me the same way."

Humans don't like to do a task in many different ways, because we are lazy(case in point: Perl and its TIMODOHI(or whatever they call it) method). Try to make something different for the sake of 'innovation', but not really making tasks easier for us is *not* good.

Right now, desktop environments *need* to learn and mimic ideas from established UIs(Mac, Windows) so they can reach the same level and stop playing catch-up. The Japanese learned this way as well -- they learned and copied car designs from American/Eurupeon manufacturers. Now their cars are nice.

Once catch-up is stopped, innovation can begin.

Publish Your Calendar WITH JICAL

[AELinuxGuy]

I just happened to have given a presentation at our LUG about group calendaring with Evolution (and every other iCal compatible software - like Apple iCal, Outlook, KOrganizer, Mozilla Mail) using a slick program called JiCal. Here is a link to the presentation text.

We use this method of automatically publishing our calendars via SSH to a web server at my office and, thus far, it has worked flawlessly. Perhaps somebody can use JiCal as the backend for this bounty?

Re:Publish Your Calendar WITH JICAL

[cduffy]

*hack* *cough*

We evaluated JiCal at my workplace for a bit. I even wrote some patches to it (JBoss 3.x support, regenerating only free/busy files that *needed* regenerating, a bit of robustification and bug fixage), but even with these things fixed we decided against the thing -- too few features, too much brittleness. And I doubt the evolution folks would accept a patch which makes them dependent on Java.

Not a bad idea...

[BrokenHalo]

This could be a model for getting much-needed projects off the ground if there were some mechanisn for individuals to contribute to a "bounty fund".

If I had the money, I would offer a bounty to anyone who could come up with an equivalent of EndNote that works seamlessly with OpenOffice (I would happily pay for the package if they produced a version for Linux) or a bounty to anyone who can come up with an interface as easy-to-use as SPSS for any of the existing (powerful but hard-to-use) statistical programs...

That's my wishlist, anyway, but as I'm a student I can't afford to do it alone, and don't have the time to code these interfaces...

Financing an Open Code Market...

[danharan]

As others mentionned, this sounds a lot like the Open Code Market idea that has been discussed here previously.

For $25k, Novell just bought amazing publicity. Perhaps an Open Code Market could attract such financing?

Big companies could even offer matching funds to any/certain types of OS software, letting users direct where the money goes. This would not only help finance and promote projects, but publicize the company and the Open Code Market.

And since I'm giving away business advice... it seems to me trade associations would also be a good funder for many targetted projects (I imagine that would be a good way to get funding for things like accounting systems, specialized database packages, etc...)

Someone please try those ideas out. I'd much rather make a living selling code that will be open :)

Why did it take them so long to do this?

[Adolph_Hitler]

Look, now we do this? Now we use money in the open source world? If the Gnome people were smart they'd host a UI design contest and use money to get a better interface because I'm sorry, the Gnome designers just do not have a clue when it comes to useability. They are geeks and programmers! They would be better of letting us normal people decide what features we want. Currently Gnome is unusable because they keep removing features THEY (The geeks) dont like. KDE is for me because KDE listens to its users.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[tempest303]

Eh? What's wrong with that screenshot? Looks like a very nice start to me...

i know.... this is really pathetic

[Anonymous Coward]

/. is really a piece of crap.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Anonymous Coward]

open office is planning to integrate itself into gnome, meaning it will become HIG compliant. the official supported gnome browser is Epiphany, so it doesnt much matter weather or not mozilla follows their guidelines. the point of the HIG is to make the best system for real users, not geeks who are likely to futz about with non standard apps or KDE. so really, while you have a point, its moot.

You just proved his point.

[Anonymous Coward]

You have presented a mockup of the future Gnome file selector. In about a year we can look forward to the new release of Gnome that uses this file selector. This new improved file selector is total SHIT. It looks like absolute crap. It is not very functional and it is still a year away.

We are talking about a file dialog box here! It is a basic and core feature of every desktop environment. This should not be a big deal but, for Gnome this has been a very big deal for several years! The 2.2 file dialog sucked and people complained. The new improved 2.4 file dialog also sucks and people are complaining. Now we look forward to yet another new improved file dialog in 2.6 and it seems that it will SUCK TOO!!!!!

Re:peace

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's Charles Darwin, fuckstick.

$2500!

[JB72]

"$2500 for allowing synchronization between Evolution's addressbook with Gaim's buddy list!" ...which you could use to buy a *NIX computer that is ready for the desktop; www.apple.com/macosx/features/addressbook/ , plus an iPod or two.

Yes I'm bitter because I'm too daft to make Linux work.

Binding Arbitration!

[Vagary]

Unless your clients can specify the requirements formally (and if they can do that, why don't they just write the program themselves in a functional language?), there's always room for a lawsuit. Thankfully, society has developed a mechanism for extremely low-cost, high-speed lawsuits: binding arbitration.

So what happens is the Client submits their signed spec (possibly after refining it with the Developer) and payment to a knowledgable (capable of understanding the spec) and trustworth neutral party: the Arbitrator. The Arbitrator signs the spec and then passes it on to the Developer. When the Developer thinks the project is done, they demonstrate it (possibly using signed code) to the Arbitrator, who then decides whether it satisfies the spec or not. If so, the Arbitrator pays the Developer and passes the code onto the Client, otherwise the Arbitrator corresponds with the Developer to work towards completion. If the Developer gets hit by a bus before the project is complete, the Arbitrator gives the payment back to the Client.

(Obviously the Arbitrator can get a percentage of the payment, a fixed fee from either party, or do the work pro bono.)

Re: Good Question... (FLAMEBAIT?!?!)

[Anonymous Coward]

And despite this nasty mess of ad-hockery, Gnome is still at least as popular is KDE. I guess this proves that users don't care about elegant coding, or coherent code design, all they want is an interface that works, and KDE isn't providing that.

To be blunt: Stop wanking over the superiority of C++. The users don't give a shit about that. Work on an interface that doesn't suck. Fewer widgets that do more is the way; three-row-toolbars are not. When you understand this, then, you will understand the secret to Gnome's continued success...

GNUstep is an OpenStep implentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Its no coincidence that they should try to hide, its the fricked point of the project, genius. GNUstep is a free implementation of the OpenStep specification.

Where is Jabber?

[axxackall]

Four IM-related bounties and all of them are for Gaim, the open-source IM client, which primary protocol is AIM, which is proprietary one, rather than XMPP/Jabber, which is "pure" open-source. What a shame on Gnome!

I understand that Gaim supports XMPP, but it does as for a secondary one. For example, when it starts it request you to login to AIM.

Why not support Gossip or even Tkabber instead? Why Gaim?

Well, if you think it's just a flame war about IM clients, then take this:

In addition to three GAIM-related bounties, the fourth one is "purely" related to AIM protocol: Handle aim: links in Epiphany. When I read this I begin thinking that Gnome management team has been sold out to AOL. Otherwise why wouldn't the include also Handle JID: links in Epiphany.

What's wrong with Gnome team?

Re:Where is Jabber?

[kidgenius]

I think that what the Gnome group is trying to do is create a set of "default" programs that things work around. In a way, it's a little M$ of them, but I think it's a good idea to make things easier for the average joe, and have things just "work". I bet that you could argue GAIM is more popular than Jabber seeing as how it was on that list of programs that people voted for to goto some computer show a month or two back. Evolution was on their as well. Mozilla, the same. Yes, there are alternatives to all of these, and on one person probably could list all of em off. If you get a "standard set" of programs to work, that makes it very easy for the non-technically inclined, or someone who just doesn't care. For the people who want to, they can always do what they've always done: use their programs of choice, and configure it to do whatever they want, and spend the time googling for some little script or program off in yonder that will make things work for those that have chosen to do things a little different than the "standard." They are not taking away anyones choice of what to do in Gnome, but just to make things easier for those people who don't want the hassle. And in doing so, there comes a time where you just have to pick what apps you want to use and where you want to spend your time as a developer.

Re:Where is Jabber?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with you? No normal user is going to use Jabber. They use AIM, Yahoo or MSN to talk with their buddies at school.

Get some common sense.

Re:Where is Jabber?

[bailout911]

There's no such thing as "primary" and "secondary" protocols in gaim anymore. You don't have to build separate protocol plugins to make them work. Historically, gaim did start as an AIM client, but now it is no more an AIM client than Trillian is. Would you say Trillian is primarily an MSN or AIM client? What about Kopete? You're just hung up on the name. Well, let me suggest you just think of it this way:
G - Gnome
A - All Purpose
I - Instant
M - Messenger

Re:Where is Jabber?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with _you_? No normal user is going to use GNOME. They use Windows and Microsoft Office to get real work done.

Get some common sense.

Re:Where is Jabber?

[axxackall]

I doubt so. Otherwise how would you explain that in IM sections (of Gnome bounties) they have three items related to GAIM and one item related to the AIM protocol specifically, and no single other item?

Besides, last time I started GAIM, first think it has asked me is to register in AIM network. Not in Jabber, not in ICQ - in AIM. It might work with all of them, but AIM protocol is certainly is a primary protocol for GAIM developers.

Re:Where is Jabber?

[Creepy13]

Are you sure? I'm using gaim without AIM, and I've never seen a AIM login or register screen. AIM support is in a module right now, as are the other protocols.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[dave1g]

LOL, well I doubt it, but I suppose it could be a possibility...

But I think the argument was more about riping off Mac than anything else and he felt the need to defend his baby.

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[AvantLegion]

Here's why I don't have a problem with that:

Right now, GNOME simply needs to get better. It is pointless to try to be original just for the sake of being original. Original is not automatically better.

Original approaches to solving problems should be encouraged. Still, in lieu of those, I would like to see GNOME model itself after the best ideas the developers can find. If Apple is the source of many of them, so be it.

GNOME doesn't have to stay the same forever. It can copy a lot of Apple stuff, and simply use that as a springboard for further development, perhaps in more original directions.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[matvei]

> Debian's KDE support today is superb, only rivaled by SuSE.

kdebase-dev has not been installable in ages in Debian unstable.

I know it's called unstable for a reason but this is getting ridiculous, as this package is needed to compile anything KDE-related. If it weren't for that single package I might agree with you about Debian's KDE support really being superb.

Button order

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, Gnome is apparently targeting the OS X interface and even the Gnome documentation stops just short of saying it in so many words. Personally I don't mind, although I have never used a Mac. Gnome 2.2 packaged with Red Hat 9 was the first version that I found usable. Previous attempts ended with me switching back to the Ion wm in a week (the diametric opposite of Gnome in tems of complexity, I know).

The new button order seriously grows on you! I have got so used to the 'complete the action' button, whaterver that happens to be ('Ok', 'Close' etc), being at them bottom right corner of the dialog, that I have bit of a problem using the odd Qt/KDE app that I need. When I'm trying to work quickly, I barely read the button labels, but rather just rely them in being the right place. Non-HIG compliant apps (Scribus!) start to feel impractical very quickly.

Re:Shouldnt even be an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I hate to say it, but Konq, and nice as it is, is running up against 'What Lies Beneath.' Look at file permissions, and how one almost has to fight to change them (certainly in comparision to Win2k).

The tabs rock, as do many of the other options. Konq is comming into a place where, if enough effort in thrown into it, and enough insight finds its way towards it, it could completely smoke windows explorer.

I don't think the Gnome people are even from Earth, where we desire and have need of these convienences. Or they might be trying to distract us with uncooprative nearly useless applications for nessecary tasks so they might secretly steal our underwear. Phase 0, as it were.

Three problems

[Anonymous Coward]

1) This is a communication issue: if problems are a priority, and the community doesn't see it as a priority, then the message needs to be spread better. Make developers understand just how much users WANT and CAN USE integration, and they'll work on it, rather than the next app's pseudo-transparency.

2) People WOULD do this for free, at some stage, most likely. Since money is a scarce resource in open source communities, it should be valued very highly, and only spent when there is no option but to spend it. Legal fees, for instance.

3) Open source is supposed to be fun, and done out of enjoyment/pride/self-development as much as anything else. The history of open source is proof of this. If you need to pay someone to work on some problem, chances are your project isn't friendly enough to new developers. Make those APIs stable; make it easy to see what's needed; make it easy to see what's already being worked on; make it easy to see what the long-term plans are, and make it easy to jump in with add new docs/ideas/code.

Money ISN'T necessary. It never has been. Organisation and community spirit is enough.

KDE already has integration

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'm not trolling here. KDE is much more integrated already.

GNOME developers owe it to themselves to ask why they need to pay people to do work that was done for free in other similar projects.

Perhaps this is an indication that GNOME needs a fundamental change of direction/technology/project management?

gnome/linux/integration

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the common problem with linux & friends - there exists lots of small and good nifty scripts and programs, but they are not well integrated, and that what makes it bad for desktop and commercial use. universal drag and drop, sensible file management, 'business services' (as PIM really is) and other such things... the community should unite and develop a common platform/framework for common task and data structures, interfaces etc. offering 2500$ for a tsuch a task (integrating gaim and evolution) won't do any good. suppose i hack it together, so that yes, it works for gaim and evolution... this will create more problems than it creates good. what if other applications will need the sme information and functionality ? etc etc etc

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Lussarn]

And why is OS X based on FreeBSD, why didn't Apple just close up shop and tell people to "just run FreeBSD".

It's a give and take world.

Re:Another great reason to jump from Red Hat to ..

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, truly debians support for kde is superb! so superb that apt-get consistently tells me the package is broken on unstable & stable.

Wrong integration

[DarkShun]

I think they work in the wrong way: Integration of the desktop must be done on the fonctionnality level, not on the software level.

Integration must be between a mail software and an IM software. Not between Evolution and Gaim.

Free software is about choice, isn't it?

Re:Wrong integration

[cduffy]

Evolution is the official GNOME mailer. GAIM is the official GNOME IM client.

What, would you expect someone to modify every single GNOME mailer and every GNOME IM client to claim this bounty? After all, just coming up with an integration mechanism is a quite small part of the battle.

While this whole idealistic "I want every single mailer to talk to every single IM client" bit may be nice, one of the nice things about the goals here is that they're things that can get done Real Soon Now, without a huge amount of 3rd-party involvement.

How about cross-desktop integration?

[AntiOrganic]

Not only is this important -- I think it would really make a whole lot more sense if KDE, Gnome, and everything else shared a lot of common file locations. My mail in Evolution and KMail should be stored in the same place by default without me resorting to strange mbox/maildir symlink hacks. My Evolution and KAddressBook should use the same files, so I don't need to manually sync them. It doesn't make any sense that they aren't.

I get the sense that 2004 is going to be an extremely important year from a usability perspective, and it will determine whether or not Linux succeeds on the desktop. 2003 brought us the great applications that caused me to switch from Windows to Linux in the first place. Now we need to bring them together for Joe User.

I switched from Gnome to KDE recently. Why? Consistency. It sounds silly, since Gnome prides itself upon the consistency of the user interface and the comprehensive Human Interface Guidelines. But KDE has a very nice predefined widget set. While I hate to dredge up the file selector, it's consistent whether it's embedded in K3B, in my file manager, or an open/save dialog; while some people have gripes with Qt, it's an extremely elegant toolkit that makes it ridiculously easy to derive new widgets. I can right-click an image in Konqueror, and save it directly to my webspace via FTP or WebDAV because all the file selectors take advantage of my kioslaves. They're both powerful in different ways, and if they could find ways to leverage both environments' strengths in one another, Linux would be absolutely unstoppable.

Bounty and Mozilla

[marnanel]

It's been suggested for Mozilla:

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2134 37
(copy and paste, since you can't link directly there from Slashdot.)

Richard Stallman used to charge $200...per HOUR

[Anonymous Coward]

My time isn't free. I've had to spend a lot of money to get my education, as well as a lot of personal time I could've been using towards something else. As any economics student could tell you, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

When Richard Stallman founded the "Free Software Foundation" to continue the GNU project after departing from MIT, he used to charge $200 per hour to commercial businesses that wanted him to create "free" code. (Source: "Rebel Code", by Glyn Moody)

Most "free" software advocates aren't aware of this fact.

Fools!

Re:Richard Stallman used to charge $200...per HOUR

[cduffy]

What's the problem with making $200/hr to write Free software?

Why is this even a relevant thing to post, except that it's an argument that can be made by Free Software advocates to the effect that creating Free Software can, in fact, be profitable?

Re:Are they using Apple as the defacto design targ

[Durin_Deathless]

Perhaps the best way to be a good Linux desktop is to clone the best(Mac OS), instead of one of the worst(Windows). It is the fundamental difference between keeping things simple, and trying to make complex things simple.

Jabber is irrelevant.

[Anonymous Coward]

AIM is here, it works, everyone uses it. Jabber is unknown outside of the free-software world. It's nice in an idealistic free-code Debian sort of way, but it's bloody useless to me unless all my friends and relatives suddenly to switch IM networks overnight. Sure, Jabber has a few token gateway servers that supposedly route messages to the proprietary networks, but they are notoriously unreliable and don't support all the features of a normal client (buddy icon, file transfer, IM images, etc) Love it or hate it, AIM is the standard, and if we want to talk to people outside the free-software world we're going to have to deal with it.

Excellent.

[WoTG]

This is a good way to get a lot of the dirty work done. Documentation for newbies, anyone?

Good Idea. Good PR too for Novell...

I've got a suggestion for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever kissed a girl? It is really nice! A good first step would be to stop compulsively masturbating while reading your own weak trolls and go talk to one! trust me....

with a reply like that

[Anonymous Coward]

you have lost.

Re:with a reply like that

[pVoid]

right. go ahead, flatter yourself some more... I'm losing even more right now.

On a side note, I don't consider myself to be on an intellectual playing field when my interlocutor is a) Anonymous, b) extremist.

ha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice, man, I'm so gonna frame this post! =)

Isn't this Cathedral programming?

[fdisk3hs]

Fresh from reading Stallman's essays (the Columbus Metropolitan Library bought a GNU/FSF publication!) and The Cathedral and the Bazaar, isn't this bass-ackwards?

Bazaar coding says to publish early and often, the Torvalds way, right? Instead of a small number of mages only releasing the properly groomed and carefully crafted 'release', publish alpha code and patches daily.

This bounty hunt promotes secrecy and Cathedral programming, not Bazaar style hack-o-rama.

Lincoln