And the programmers should know the minor details between those. The engineers don't. There are thousands of small things that a plumber and electrician need to know that the engineer doesn't. (And vice versa).
How about I decide what I need? I need code monkeys. I don't need a CS degree because they're 'useless' for what I need them to do. I would prefer to hire locally but if you don't want to fund this education I'll be happy getting a H1B to do it.
The point is that you don't need a team full of software engineers. Just like building a building doesn't need a team full of mechanical engineers.
You need a few engineers to make core decisions and plumbers, electricians and programmers to actually get their hands dirty and build the design.
The reason you haven't found the right people is you're looking in completely the wrong places. A CS education is a full background in the *theory* just as an engineering one is. You need people that went to 'trade schools' to do a bulk of the work.
And some people learn by doing while others learn by academic.
Some people pick up a hammer and chisel and have a knack for it. They don't need to know the full theory behind how the chisel applies its force.
Sure, some boot camp graduates can too but not nearly as many as you think.
I'm a mechanical engineer overwhelmed with programming work. Not CS work, programming. I need a VocTech level programmer to implement what I tell them. I don't need it the most efficient or the best data structure. I need a script or program to do X.
And if they use that to eventually learn the best and most efficient ways, good for them. Some people just want to hit the hammer and chisel.
I trust an electrician to wire my house more than I trust an electrical engineer just as I trust a plumber more than I trust a engineer with a PhD in fluid dynamics to plumb it.
I need the programming equivalent of electricians and plumbers, not engineers. Thousands of industries need it as well. There are people out there still manually sorting Excel documents set on retirement. Those jobs need taken and they need to be filled by people that know how to do a for loop. Not one that has 2 semesters of Linear Algebra and a compilers class.
I've, for the most part, forgotten a lot of my C because it's not needed. Turns out you don't have to know strict C to be able to think through logic problems.
Snapcraft: Package any app for every Linux desktop, server, cloud or device, and deliver updates directly.
How do snaps work?
A snap is a fancy zip file containing an application together with its dependencies, and a description of how it should safely be run on your system, especially the different ways it should talk to other software.
Most importantly snaps are designed to be secure, sandboxed, containerised applications isolated from the underlying system and from other applications. Snaps allow the safe installation of apps from any vendor on mission critical devices and desktops.
Looks like it's Linux's answer to Apple's.app folder structure.
The community college tends to emphasize "this is how you do this precise task" without every going into "this is how to understand how this works."
Which is why "Soldering" should be a trade by now along the same lines as pipe fitting, plumbing, electrician, etc. If you need circuits built you hire the solderer. If you need circuits designed you hire the engineer. (And that's not to say one can't learn to do the other).
If they unionized they could prevent offshoring, get decent wages, etc.
Any part of a job that is "This is how you do it" is a skilled trade. That's more or less exactly how skilled trades have always been. Leatherworkers, carvers, blacksmiths, etc. Germany still has a very good skilled trade program. When I worked there we had 17-18 year olds on rotations that were learning exactly how to do precise tasks while the engineers did other stuff.
the community college students are not as well prepared as the four-year-degree students,
Because they were prepared to do different things. You even commented on the difference in educations. If you hire someone that understands the theory when you need to do the precise task or hire someone that can do the precise task when they need to know the theory that's the hiring manager's fault.
At my job I have no shortage of work just shortage of skilled workers. I need a bunch of people to do precise tasks so that I can spend my time on the theory. I could outsource 80% of my job to skilled trades like that: Simulink modelers, Python coders, etc so. The US education system hasn't been turning these out (but they're starting).
Every time HR sends us another 'useless' engineering Intern I think to myself that I could hire a bunch of HS dropouts that loved Python/Minecraft and teach them to do what I needed done faster than I could teach an engineering student. And at a fraction of the cost.
Have you ever considered that those jobs are the current crop of 'bugger flippers'? The next step is minimum wage and then automation.
It's been that way for nearly every profession since the beginning of time. How many people to cotton farmers hire to pick cotton? It was literally slave work before it was automated. Companies stopped hiring C developers for automotive style work when Simulink started writing better C.
I just hit the magic Logan's Run of 40 in IT, and I hate getting lumped in with the Bobs
Then your resume should reflect it. Companies are hiring 40+ year olds all the time. My contract company has 4 open jobs that are all in the realm of 40+ year olds. When there was a recent down turn all of the 'entry level' positions were the ones that got cut.
If you stood on a table at a job fair and shouted those 4 terms recruiters would be coming to you.
There is a huge need for programmers that understand both Simulink AND C (so you can debug the toolchain). In addition there is a completely unknown MATHWORKS language called TLC that only a handful of people know and can master (or so it seems): https://stackoverflow.com/ques... You need to know TLC to make device drivers for Simulink. I started making my own for Arduino/NilRTOS/FreeRTOS but got hung up with something else. Learn TLC.
- RTOS - I hope no explanation needed. All automotive controllers are running one of some sort. All of them are closed source. See also: WindRiver. Get familiar with an opensource RTOS and RTOS concepts.
- dSpace. dSpace is unit testing for the physical world. When companies need to test how software is going to work they can't always do it on the hardware itself. When a modern car is put into 'drive' a the CAN message that tells the transmission computer to go into drive is sent. (Get familiar with CAN as well).
Unfortunately they're stuck on Python 2.7 which is the only reason I have to still deal with it. I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there looking for people that can automate the automation tools.
- OSEK. [Offene Systeme und deren Schnittstellen für die Elektronik in Kraftfahrzeugen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSEK). Literally "Open Systems and their Interfaces for the Electronics in Motor Vehicles".
I hear VW might be looking for some. Every other automotive manufacturer is.
The trick is to do both cutting edge and legacy and avoid doing anything in the middle. I'd imagine the guy that knows COBOL and Python3 very well isn't going to have a problem with unemployment.
Put those on your Resume. Put it on linked in and wait. I deleted my linked in because I got tired of dealing with poaching head hunters. I talked about it at work and multiple of my co-workers get the same things.
They even have sponsored job listings like this one. [dice.com]. (I doubt they'd pay to sponsor it if they're just using it as an excuse to hire a H1B). Full time. Very good Embedded C knowledge required. Also need to have relevant modern skills like knowledge of CAN, LIN, and FlexRay.
Those results can be replicated in multiple parts of the country. Look for locations near any Aerospace, Heavy Machinery or Automotive companies.
If those 'degreed programmers' can't find a job perhaps they don't have skills relevant to the job market anymore. I don't know about you but I could personally apply to a majority of those positions and get a call back within a day. (And I do every so often to ball park my worth on the open job market).
they won't find anyone that fits those exact requirements...not in America, not anywhere.
Um, I'm right here. Born in the Midwest. College at a Big 10 school in the Midwest. I fit the requirements for 90% of those jobs. I'm just happy with my current position. My old group had budgeting issues so I jumped to a new section within a week. I was 'unemployed' for all of 2 weeks. I could just as easily applied to any one of those positions.
There are dozens if not hundreds of peers of mine that also fit those requirements. Any one of us could easily apply for and get those jobs.
are extremely targeted
And you say that based on?
as if you had to have already worked there in the recent past.
No. You have to have relevant job skills. If you don't have any of those skills listed perhaps you should be asking yourself 'why' instead of blaming the H1B's for taking a job that you aren't qualified to do because you don't have relevant job skills.
Bob was 5 years away from retirement when I started in 2005.
Bob refused to learn AutoCAD. He "didn't trust it". Any task that required drawing would take Bob 5-10x as long as anyone else.
We put an intern in charge of shadowing Bob.
When Bob retired his job was taken over by a few python scripts (He didn't trust Excel's Sort either) and the other stuff was absorbed by fresh graduates that worked much cheaper than Bob.
Bob insisted he was 'highly skilled' because he had a Masters Degree. He thought he was in high demand and could take off to any company when in reality it was just too much work to fire him and he did his job 'ok' enough to make it to retirement. If Bob was in his 30s or 40s we would have dropped him for a fresh college graduate that had modern skills. Bob would have probably sat on Slashdot complaining about being "highly skilled" but not being able to find a job.
For all those "highly skilled programmers" looking for jobs, here are a few within 25 miles of Farmington Hills, MI.
- Simulink (99 of them are $100k+). (Simulink is a 'dirty' graphical programming language that Slashdot likes to mock.) - RTOS - dSpace - OSEK
They even have sponsored job listings like this one.. (I doubt they'd pay to sponsor it if they're just using it as an excuse to hire a H1B). Full time. Very good Embedded C knowledge required. Also need to have relevant modern skills like knowledge of CAN, LIN, and FlexRay.
Those results can be replicated in multiple parts of the country. Look for locations near any Aerospace, Heavy Machinery or Automotive companies.
We don't. At least not programmers like we need them.
Somewhere in between the sliding scale of "no education what so ever" and a "BS in CS" there is a spot for software programmers as a skilled trade. However somewhere along the way 'trade/vocational schools' became a dirty word in education because they were for the 'alternative kids' (trouble makers).
Most parts of IT should follow an apprenticeship style educational setup rather than the university setup. Thankfully trade schools are starting to make a comeback now that people are realizing college isn't for everyone.
To be more effective at my job I don't need a bunch of college CS graduates. I need one CS graduate in charge of a bunch of associates degree / trade school programmers. Just like to be more effective at other parts I don't need a welding engineer I need a skilled trade welder.
These are the positions that the H1-Bs are backfilling and will continue to do so until the US decides that college isn't for everyone and that hands on training is far more effective for certain careers.
Slashdot Mirror
And the programmers should know the minor details between those. The engineers don't. There are thousands of small things that a plumber and electrician need to know that the engineer doesn't. (And vice versa).
How about I decide what I need? I need code monkeys. I don't need a CS degree because they're 'useless' for what I need them to do. I would prefer to hire locally but if you don't want to fund this education I'll be happy getting a H1B to do it.
Python has taken over as the new VB. The point is I still need people to write it.
Said it better than I ever could.
If it was so obvious why hasn't anyone done it with the IT and CS industries before?
Now they just resort to importing H1Bs.
The point is that you don't need a team full of software engineers. Just like building a building doesn't need a team full of mechanical engineers.
You need a few engineers to make core decisions and plumbers, electricians and programmers to actually get their hands dirty and build the design.
The reason you haven't found the right people is you're looking in completely the wrong places. A CS education is a full background in the *theory* just as an engineering one is. You need people that went to 'trade schools' to do a bulk of the work.
And some people learn by doing while others learn by academic.
Some people pick up a hammer and chisel and have a knack for it. They don't need to know the full theory behind how the chisel applies its force.
Sure, some boot camp graduates can too but not nearly as many as you think.
I'm a mechanical engineer overwhelmed with programming work. Not CS work, programming. I need a VocTech level programmer to implement what I tell them. I don't need it the most efficient or the best data structure. I need a script or program to do X.
And if they use that to eventually learn the best and most efficient ways, good for them. Some people just want to hit the hammer and chisel.
I trust an electrician to wire my house more than I trust an electrical engineer just as I trust a plumber more than I trust a engineer with a PhD in fluid dynamics to plumb it.
I need the programming equivalent of electricians and plumbers, not engineers. Thousands of industries need it as well. There are people out there still manually sorting Excel documents set on retirement. Those jobs need taken and they need to be filled by people that know how to do a for loop. Not one that has 2 semesters of Linear Algebra and a compilers class.
Has it ever been extended to programming and software engineering? If so that's the new idea.
Thousands of slashdotters claim you can't write code with out a full BS in CS when we know that not to be the case.
Simulink does that already and the sky hasn't fallen. There are plenty of jobs to be found.
I've, for the most part, forgotten a lot of my C because it's not needed. Turns out you don't have to know strict C to be able to think through logic problems.
Finally, someone stateside is filling the gap between nothing and a full CS degree.
Odd jobs can't outrun proximity mines.
And on the 8th day God said "Here's the BSD License".
> I still miss Vista's Aero
My Windows machines look as close to Windows 2000 as I can make them.
Seriously. Let me pick if I want a Tablet or Windows 2000 Classic or Aero or what ever window manager to run. (I want to run AwesomeWM).
Upgrade the kernel and all the other core utilities (I like them) and don't force yet another window manager change on me (or my unsuspecting family).
Congratulations, you can now leave off the WM from the server component.
Sounds like a ripe opportunity to write some 'cloud based' scheduler that can handle all of this, open source it, and charge a consulting fee.
It's not even the first hit on Google: http://www.snapcraft.net/
Or the second: http://minecraftservers.org/se...
But the third: http://snapcraft.io/
Snapcraft: Package any app for every Linux desktop, server, cloud or device, and deliver updates directly.
How do snaps work?
A snap is a fancy zip file containing an application together with its dependencies, and a description of how it should safely be run on your system, especially the different ways it should talk to other software.
Most importantly snaps are designed to be secure, sandboxed, containerised applications isolated from the underlying system and from other applications. Snaps allow the safe installation of apps from any vendor on mission critical devices and desktops.
Looks like it's Linux's answer to Apple's .app folder structure.
You mean almost any company anywhere?
We're getting Windows 10 shoved down our throats. My productivity is going to drop.
The community college tends to emphasize "this is how you do this precise task" without every going into "this is how to understand how this works."
Which is why "Soldering" should be a trade by now along the same lines as pipe fitting, plumbing, electrician, etc. If you need circuits built you hire the solderer. If you need circuits designed you hire the engineer. (And that's not to say one can't learn to do the other).
If they unionized they could prevent offshoring, get decent wages, etc.
Any part of a job that is "This is how you do it" is a skilled trade. That's more or less exactly how skilled trades have always been. Leatherworkers, carvers, blacksmiths, etc. Germany still has a very good skilled trade program. When I worked there we had 17-18 year olds on rotations that were learning exactly how to do precise tasks while the engineers did other stuff.
the community college students are not as well prepared as the four-year-degree students,
Because they were prepared to do different things. You even commented on the difference in educations. If you hire someone that understands the theory when you need to do the precise task or hire someone that can do the precise task when they need to know the theory that's the hiring manager's fault.
At my job I have no shortage of work just shortage of skilled workers. I need a bunch of people to do precise tasks so that I can spend my time on the theory. I could outsource 80% of my job to skilled trades like that: Simulink modelers, Python coders, etc so. The US education system hasn't been turning these out (but they're starting).
Every time HR sends us another 'useless' engineering Intern I think to myself that I could hire a bunch of HS dropouts that loved Python/Minecraft and teach them to do what I needed done faster than I could teach an engineering student. And at a fraction of the cost.
Have you ever considered that those jobs are the current crop of 'bugger flippers'? The next step is minimum wage and then automation.
It's been that way for nearly every profession since the beginning of time. How many people to cotton farmers hire to pick cotton? It was literally slave work before it was automated. Companies stopped hiring C developers for automotive style work when Simulink started writing better C.
There are plenty of jobs out there for 'skilled workers' with 2016 skills.
I just hit the magic Logan's Run of 40 in IT, and I hate getting lumped in with the Bobs
Then your resume should reflect it. Companies are hiring 40+ year olds all the time. My contract company has 4 open jobs that are all in the realm of 40+ year olds. When there was a recent down turn all of the 'entry level' positions were the ones that got cut.
If you stood on a table at a job fair and shouted those 4 terms recruiters would be coming to you.
Here's what they are:
- Simulink. Simulink is a graphical programming language. https://www.date-conference.co...
There is a huge need for programmers that understand both Simulink AND C (so you can debug the toolchain). In addition there is a completely unknown MATHWORKS language called TLC that only a handful of people know and can master (or so it seems): https://stackoverflow.com/ques... You need to know TLC to make device drivers for Simulink. I started making my own for Arduino/NilRTOS/FreeRTOS but got hung up with something else. Learn TLC.
- RTOS - I hope no explanation needed. All automotive controllers are running one of some sort. All of them are closed source. See also: WindRiver. Get familiar with an opensource RTOS and RTOS concepts.
- dSpace. dSpace is unit testing for the physical world. When companies need to test how software is going to work they can't always do it on the hardware itself. When a modern car is put into 'drive' a the CAN message that tells the transmission computer to go into drive is sent. (Get familiar with CAN as well).
A lot of decent tutorials out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Unfortunately they're stuck on Python 2.7 which is the only reason I have to still deal with it. I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there looking for people that can automate the automation tools.
It's programmed through Simulink. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
- OSEK. [Offene Systeme und deren Schnittstellen für die Elektronik in Kraftfahrzeugen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSEK). Literally "Open Systems and their Interfaces for the Electronics in Motor Vehicles".
I hear VW might be looking for some. Every other automotive manufacturer is.
The trick is to do both cutting edge and legacy and avoid doing anything in the middle. I'd imagine the guy that knows COBOL and Python3 very well isn't going to have a problem with unemployment.
Put those on your Resume. Put it on linked in and wait. I deleted my linked in because I got tired of dealing with poaching head hunters. I talked about it at work and multiple of my co-workers get the same things.
There are plenty of degreed programmers that can't get jobs, and it's because companies claim they need senior level guys.
Well then perhaps they should start applying to more places. Here's a short list of 4 job searches just within 25 miles of Farmington Hills, MI.
- Simulink (99 of them are $100k+).
- RTOS
- dSpace
- OSEK
They even have sponsored job listings like this one. [dice.com]. (I doubt they'd pay to sponsor it if they're just using it as an excuse to hire a H1B). Full time. Very good Embedded C knowledge required. Also need to have relevant modern skills like knowledge of CAN, LIN, and FlexRay.
Those results can be replicated in multiple parts of the country. Look for locations near any Aerospace, Heavy Machinery or Automotive companies.
If those 'degreed programmers' can't find a job perhaps they don't have skills relevant to the job market anymore. I don't know about you but I could personally apply to a majority of those positions and get a call back within a day. (And I do every so often to ball park my worth on the open job market).
they won't find anyone that fits those exact requirements...not in America, not anywhere.
Um, I'm right here. Born in the Midwest. College at a Big 10 school in the Midwest. I fit the requirements for 90% of those jobs. I'm just happy with my current position. My old group had budgeting issues so I jumped to a new section within a week. I was 'unemployed' for all of 2 weeks. I could just as easily applied to any one of those positions.
There are dozens if not hundreds of peers of mine that also fit those requirements. Any one of us could easily apply for and get those jobs.
are extremely targeted
And you say that based on?
as if you had to have already worked there in the recent past.
No. You have to have relevant job skills. If you don't have any of those skills listed perhaps you should be asking yourself 'why' instead of blaming the H1B's for taking a job that you aren't qualified to do because you don't have relevant job skills.
When I hear "Took our Jerbs" I'm reminded of Bob.
Bob was 5 years away from retirement when I started in 2005.
Bob refused to learn AutoCAD. He "didn't trust it". Any task that required drawing would take Bob 5-10x as long as anyone else.
We put an intern in charge of shadowing Bob.
When Bob retired his job was taken over by a few python scripts (He didn't trust Excel's Sort either) and the other stuff was absorbed by fresh graduates that worked much cheaper than Bob.
Bob insisted he was 'highly skilled' because he had a Masters Degree. He thought he was in high demand and could take off to any company when in reality it was just too much work to fire him and he did his job 'ok' enough to make it to retirement. If Bob was in his 30s or 40s we would have dropped him for a fresh college graduate that had modern skills. Bob would have probably sat on Slashdot complaining about being "highly skilled" but not being able to find a job.
For all those "highly skilled programmers" looking for jobs, here are a few within 25 miles of Farmington Hills, MI.
- Simulink (99 of them are $100k+). (Simulink is a 'dirty' graphical programming language that Slashdot likes to mock.)
- RTOS
- dSpace
- OSEK
They even have sponsored job listings like this one.. (I doubt they'd pay to sponsor it if they're just using it as an excuse to hire a H1B). Full time. Very good Embedded C knowledge required. Also need to have relevant modern skills like knowledge of CAN, LIN, and FlexRay.
Those results can be replicated in multiple parts of the country. Look for locations near any Aerospace, Heavy Machinery or Automotive companies.
There are plenty of degreed programmers that can't get jobs, and it's because companies claim they need senior level guys.
Yet from where I'm not even replying to linked in cold calls and I can go onto Indeed right now and walk into any of a dozen jobs.
Perhaps those 'degreed programmers' don't have relevant skillsets in 2016.
we have no programmers here
We don't. At least not programmers like we need them.
Somewhere in between the sliding scale of "no education what so ever" and a "BS in CS" there is a spot for software programmers as a skilled trade. However somewhere along the way 'trade/vocational schools' became a dirty word in education because they were for the 'alternative kids' (trouble makers).
Most parts of IT should follow an apprenticeship style educational setup rather than the university setup. Thankfully trade schools are starting to make a comeback now that people are realizing college isn't for everyone.
To be more effective at my job I don't need a bunch of college CS graduates. I need one CS graduate in charge of a bunch of associates degree / trade school programmers. Just like to be more effective at other parts I don't need a welding engineer I need a skilled trade welder.
These are the positions that the H1-Bs are backfilling and will continue to do so until the US decides that college isn't for everyone and that hands on training is far more effective for certain careers.
Especially when the Intel Nuc has finally caught up.