There are some serious ilusions you are living, oh dear...:)
XPS: why would I want that? Because it's not PDF, but does the same task. And unlike the bastardized MDI format from XP-2003, XPS is actually going to have a free reader out there. Wrong, true answer - no one will care. PDF is industry standard and it will stay that way for some five years. As long as Microsoft has Adobe Suite CS2 killer under hood, big changes not gonna happen. Want to point out that PDF has got his share of industry only recently and soon will be FULLY supported "good enough" for various features (like forms, locking, etc.) on MANY platforms.
Logical question - why would you care about something like XPS? If won't be aviable on default Linux distros/OS X, it propably won't have readers on lot of embeded devices? And if you want to post it to Microsoft guy, why just not drop a DOC in email?:)
By the way, Microsoft rolled back PDF feature as default install as well. Hell with rest of the world, we will get our own way.
Blogging from Word - you are about being funny, right? Yes, there are some "dumb" users who are using Word as HTML editor - thankfully, they are minority - and they propably will love "new mindblowing" feature, hyped by Microsoft marketing and astrosufers. No one else will use it, thought.
Not quite true. You can install from copy of media, so Windows XP PRO OEM install will be legal, if you have sticker (which is actually only one thing what matters legaly, I know EULA, but...EULA my ass:)), then you should have installed product, using serial number on sticker. Yes, and activisation sometimes is a must (not for PRO XP SP2, by the way - install, install WGA, updates and you are done).
For business, sticker and recieving reciept is all you need for legit Windows install. Yes, in theory, you could be asked for more, but Microsoft is not so harsh at this side, I must say.
By the way, you are modded funny now, but if we are serious, then biggest human trait is...survival instinct. Dishonesty appears only in situations when human is treatened with dismission, when he wants to ensure his (and his closest ones) survival. It can't be overrided, it can't be passed by, it must be taken in account.
In this situation, if people are sure has plenty of money and is easy in mind about his survival, there is no need of looking eyes or signatures that we are "watching you". Simply state that if you trink a coffee, please pay about it. But if human is thirsty or hungry or nervous and has no money nor ensurance that he will get what he want later, then forget about any signs, videos, eyes, etc. He will trink three cups and will run away, without any problems.
We can look even futher - about terrorism, as it is tied very close with survilance - if SOMEONE feels treatened (and heck, those sad, dump sheeps have this feeling simply spiced up by clever manipulators from top command of Al Queda or other terrorist team), then they will get to that what they want to do at all cost.
So, in fact, human has only one strong emotion - his own survival. Nothing else matters. And everything is related to it.
Post scriptum - by the way, it is so strange that there is almost no human ethics school who would try to get people UNDERSTAND, that there is nothing wrong sometimes with feelings to want something you can't get, wanting to steal something - because it is instinct and it should be understood not denied. It is NOT sin to feel that way. It IS "sin" or we could say, "bad", to not take it into account and act accordingly, so no one get hurt and you get calm and easy again.
I just wanted to add to your thought, that it is VERY hard to be wealthy and powerful, and in same time haven't: * exploited others; * lied and cheated; * broke the law; * ignored common sense and responsibilities to society;
Let's be at least honest here - in this example, none of these rich people (Bill Gates, Waren) got their monies honestly. Instead of getting super rich, they could spur economical diversity and growth, not frozen it with their business dealings. But hell, who cares, money is there and it impress everyone. So let's give Bill a crown now?
Sorry for this little flamory, but Bill's playing "big good dady" is getting to my nerves - he has done lot of things wrong. Very wrong.
They werent alowed to. Simply Microsoft got his hand in keeping monopoly (after present from DOJ) and everyone on Microsoft PR payroll were raving about how perfect/good is Windows 2000/XP.
And this fact usually bears me down like a ton of bricks. Capitalism my arse, yeah, right:( It is just same old "I use you, own you and you can't do NOTHING about it" all over the place.
Ok, it is not that bad in all places, but such examples just...just seems so wrong.
...emmmm, it is actually nuclear weapon's launching pad:)
Yes, I know, it looks good at press, but are journalists that stupid? Honestly... 30$ milions my ass. I set a tag and give you a gift, how nice of you Bill.
Simple - because fear of death and desire of lust is strongest emotions people have
Ohhh, if it was so simple... In short, people want power, because out of fear to be put away and because of will to save theirselves. So they want to get power and gain power. To gain power, they have two ways - embrase power of fear and lies (very big example seen in US and Russia), or embrase power of lust or "free will" (in ranks of set rules by you, of course). So these emotions are very powerful power yelders - if human being haven't learned to embrase fear in place of bend over for them - they are very easy to manipulate with (Others could call it "crowd stupidness" or "crowd power", whatever).
It is very simple structure and has worked for centuries.
But is it true? That human is doomed to such embarasing power schemas and structures and nothing can save him? Hell, no, just other ways are very hard to achieve. For example, forgivness, kindness, embrasing of happiness not just fake feelings - why we see such feelings in humans so rarerly? Why we see such feelings so rarerly in humans which are in power?
Many have been downplayed Christianity as lies and hyprocity. But for me, when I strip away religious stuff, it is pure belief to HUMANITY.
So what is actually Human? Being which is just very inteligent enough to build bridges, houses, change lifes of milions of his companions? Or it is entity of BELIEF, which is capable of ANYTHING in which he believes?
So back to answer - reason why these two fields are pratically pushes almost eighty percent of innovation is answer - human is weak when it doesn't believe, and he fears his demise. But when he believes, he can bring us miracles - he creates small computers for childrens to work and learn with (yeah, shameless plug for OLPC:)), art works filled with hope and naviety, songs, art, music, literature. It creates miracles with bringing something good not only for him, but for rest of us. And he is honest, at least with himself.
So question is - which human will rule world in future?
No. Ubuntu Linux IS real product now (and also well thought-out ideas for profit), because it has stuff which works [tm], so in my opinion, it can't be compared with any dot com example. About money - you propably don't get it how BIG is Debian in Enterprise. Just because it had no serious commercial entity so far, doesn't mean that it doesn't have market share. It could even larger than RedHat.
So, no. Ubuntu is DIRECT competitor to RedHat, because it is RedHat fault that it screwed up it's desktop - sorry for all guys working there, but RedHat never took desktop seriously (hey, and nothing wrong with that, they take their way where fastest gain could be). It is not possible to work with RPM depency hell - and no, Yam is not solution, I have already checked it out. CUPS - broken. Lot of packages incompatable and not working.
I will be modded down as troll, and maybe this time I don't even care. I just wonder how many people still sticks with Fedora which is half-baked and don't try something else, because everytime after four years with Debian and Gentoo, anything related with rpm and Redhat/Fedora/Mandriva gives me headaches:) It is so hard to use these products!
Ubuntu is only about two years in market and it already captured very serious attention and user base. Guess what - there are several reasons why. Because don't looking about problems and still tweakable things, their product just WORKS. I pop in CD, read data, press eject - and disc ejects! I plug in various USB flash based devices - they again just works. Even for Movies I have two ways - EasyUbuntu and Metaverse/Universe three packages "gstreamer-plugins-bad", "gstreamer-plugins-ugly" and "gstreamer-ffmpeg" which I better prefer (I prefer Gstreamer and see great future for it). I download deb, double click - good looking information window opens, then I can check out if depencies are allright. It even checks if depencies can't be covered by repositories! Just click Install, Grant, enter your password and vola!
In resume - IMO, RedHat just screwed up it's own posiblity to own Linux desktop. Now it will be left to Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xanos, Linspire to have it. On surprise, they almost all based on Debian or Debian derative. Linux Desktop have VERY big capacity, if it's done right.
I already have iTunes replacements, Rhythmbox (still works and gets more and more stable, using everyday) and Bashnee (nice visual features and plugin system, but still *sometimes* slow as hell, partly thanks to Mono). I checked out Songbird, no problem, looks nice, but I just don't need 1:1 clone of iTunes. But anyway, it is all about choice.:)
But with rest of post I agree completely. It is really new wave of Linux desktop activity and this time we can reach much much higher. It is exciting, interesting AND this time Ubuntu (and as I heard Fedora and rest distros gets there too) as Linux desktop provides me colosal and very good and perfect working place.
Finally, I hope Graphisoft and Autodesk will bring their apps to Linux. AutoCAD newest version already uses.NET and could be easily ported. And Adobe/Macromedia will overlook their positions on that matter.
I believe that Linux desktop marketing after two years will be something about 5-7%. So...We are growing. I hope so:)
Just don't overgeneralise everything:) Some people somehow are kind of different reality or just have stuck in some cycle. Yes, I prefer Free Software and usually use it, but it is good to see commercial software to come to Linux. It provides more choice and thought it is not free software, it is still good to have that choice.
Yes, fans and very concervative free software users usually stick with "f you won't provide source, you got nothing from me" and sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Just take everything they say with handful of salt.
I checked out app now, installer in local envorement was nice, app itself is with libwine, but it is something at least.
MS employ thousands of people IN US and INDIA. Where is there thousands for Microsoft working in France? Do Microsoft have jobs in France? I don't think so.
And please stop play - ohhh, Microsoft is so great to bring benifits for local economy crap - it is pure PR and Microsoft and even everone in goverment knows it. Microsoft abuse laws of monopoly and copyright when it suits them and believe me, all world economy would be much better without them. And it is not my thoughts, but serious economical specialists which says that.
PM has to represent his people, NOT to take interest of ANY person who can *theoretically* bring monetary advantages to a country. And ohh, buy the way, Microsoft in Eirope uses Irland as a proxy, therefore not paying ANY taxes as company. Saying that Microsoft presence in market benefits country is hyprotical at it's best, if not outright lying.
Seriously, this is real "top secret" info and goverment got it loose to some God damn hacker?
I would bet that again "cool" solutions like Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Office is involved. Or better even, unconfigured and unsecured Linux or BSD server.
Propably will be modded troll, but anyway, it is crazy and scary in same time.
I don't want to stand in either side in this discussion - I don't use Java and I would be happy that world would go with Python, which is more portable and that stuff - but let's be real, Java is used heavily in enterprise and that is where Debian is aimed at and it would be very good, because hey, we are not here to make enemies, but friends:)
So what I want is clearly compromise solution, not flamewar. Problem is here that SPI and Debian-legal are in clear opposition in ANY deal with current Sun attitude. They want clear hands and not even vague hint about legal problems but there is no such possibilty, because we are living in real world, with real, different people with different goals. And legal world is fucked up that there can be any treat from anyone, so if you want to avoid that, better go to the wild and live in the tent.
And my pick is that you are not reading your own hint quite right. Lawyer should be "consulted". There are words "should" and "consulted", not "must" and "decide".
Let's be honest in what we believe. It is good that we have FSF, Debian-legal, and lot of clever minds who wants to avoid legal trouble. But in same time - let's be in touch with real world and real issues. Lot of Debian users - even faitful ones - wants to have easy instable and supported Java. No editing sources.list, no obscure packages, reading mailing lists, howtos... It is a fact. And nothing will change it.
Yes, you are right on target, but it is more than that. I see it is a fight against "evil Sun binaries". Not to troll or blame either side, I can say I understand them both, It is very clearly to see that Debian-legal has big no-no opinion to bind Debian, even remotely or vague, with Sun legal webs. Good or bad, it is hard to say, but those people just hate Sun - maybe it is justified, maybe not, I don't know. I don't use Java very much and I won't be sad it to go. BUT lot of enterprise devs/admins are would be very happy to have "apt-getable" JRE in Debian/Ubuntu. So...I just don't know. Long years everyone bashed Sun that it didn't give us distribution freedom. And now when they give some rest and are willing to help in distribution of JRE - finally, I say - then these people comes up and say "GPL or nothing".
People are afraid of binary and commercial software. Afraid of lock-in. I understand them, it is very hard to say what future will bring. But this very childish flameware without even mentioning TRUE reasons of opposition has to stop.
And people, remember - yes, maybe those "freebies" are zealots, but they are so by cause. Sun can't be wholy trusted, as they have done very bad things in past - supported SCO recently and tried to cash in on IBM vs. SCO lawsuit, and binary only/commercial software tends to break or be simply untrustable (I speak from my 13 years admin expierence). And let's not talk about legal issues, which is totally black picture most of common crowd (they don't care about paying back credit sometimes, too). So they have some rights to be what they are and have opinions what they have. What I oppose in their action, that they simply don't want compromises. It is only thing I can say I don't like with them.
Let's be honest - most developers don't give a white sh@$#%t about what clauses and doubtful legal situations can arise of use of software, so Debian-legal thoughts are usually have been taken with lot of anger and confusion. Devs just want to work with software and apps, but D-L is full of idealists and clever individuals in legal field, who see things quite differently (and it is NOTHING bad about that), and so conflict is in full force.
But in this case, I *think* it is totally overblown and feels like that Debian-legal just want to say big f12#$%k off to Java usage in Debian - non-legal arguments like "I don't use non-free", "there are ALMOST working free software implementation in main", etc says almost everything about discusssion - it is not about LEGAL situation, but about fears that if Java will be aviable in non-free and will be supported by DD, CLASSPATH and other Java projects will slowly loose momentum they achieved so far now (Again, it is just my thougts after reading almost half of thread).
I can understand both sides, but thinking "We will get free implementation, we don't need stinkin Sun official implementation" sounds like too much dreaming. Let's be honest - it is simply not possible. Oracle won't use CLASSPATH, they will insist to use JRE. Other software will too. Yes, there will be desktop apps which will run on Free Software versions just fine - like Eclipse, lot of different small aps, but for enterprise it will be big NO-NO.
I certainly support your comment. Ubuntu Dapper's brown/yellow is so calm on eyes that I don't even notice how long I work. And I work long and with lot of open windows.
Seems that you are running LiveCD install disk. In this case, use alternative version with old-skul text installer and then propapbly all will be fine.
Hmmmm, no. My pick is that Ubuntu Dapper got to one level where you get user (not A geek) to use Linux as primary operational system. In result, lot of different bugs have been filled, for example, about using three sound cards (!) or three monitors, because people have started Dapper for almost everything. And as bugsquad is very warm and responsive to bug fillers, in result, people look at things, test them, fill bugs. Lot of those bugs could be fixed by geek, which have been running RedHat, Slackware, Debian, whatever. Ubuntu rises this bar to common users and in result, lot of bugs for next level to fix:)
By default, Dapper is the best Ubuntu distro, without any doubt. Bug count just shows how much users are earing to improve and polish this already good distro.
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There are some serious ilusions you are living, oh dear...:)
:)
XPS: why would I want that?
Because it's not PDF, but does the same task. And unlike the bastardized MDI format from XP-2003, XPS is actually going to have a free reader out there.
Wrong, true answer - no one will care. PDF is industry standard and it will stay that way for some five years. As long as Microsoft has Adobe Suite CS2 killer under hood, big changes not gonna happen.
Want to point out that PDF has got his share of industry only recently and soon will be FULLY supported "good enough" for various features (like forms, locking, etc.) on MANY platforms.
Logical question - why would you care about something like XPS? If won't be aviable on default Linux distros/OS X, it propably won't have readers on lot of embeded devices? And if you want to post it to Microsoft guy, why just not drop a DOC in email?
By the way, Microsoft rolled back PDF feature as default install as well. Hell with rest of the world, we will get our own way.
Blogging from Word - you are about being funny, right? Yes, there are some "dumb" users who are using Word as HTML editor - thankfully, they are minority - and they propably will love "new mindblowing" feature, hyped by Microsoft marketing and astrosufers. No one else will use it, thought.
Not quite true. You can install from copy of media, so Windows XP PRO OEM install will be legal, if you have sticker (which is actually only one thing what matters legaly, I know EULA, but...EULA my ass :)), then you should have installed product, using serial number on sticker. Yes, and activisation sometimes is a must (not for PRO XP SP2, by the way - install, install WGA, updates and you are done).
For business, sticker and recieving reciept is all you need for legit Windows install. Yes, in theory, you could be asked for more, but Microsoft is not so harsh at this side, I must say.
By the way, you are modded funny now, but if we are serious, then biggest human trait is...survival instinct. Dishonesty appears only in situations when human is treatened with dismission, when he wants to ensure his (and his closest ones) survival. It can't be overrided, it can't be passed by, it must be taken in account.
In this situation, if people are sure has plenty of money and is easy in mind about his survival, there is no need of looking eyes or signatures that we are "watching you". Simply state that if you trink a coffee, please pay about it. But if human is thirsty or hungry or nervous and has no money nor ensurance that he will get what he want later, then forget about any signs, videos, eyes, etc. He will trink three cups and will run away, without any problems.
We can look even futher - about terrorism, as it is tied very close with survilance - if SOMEONE feels treatened (and heck, those sad, dump sheeps have this feeling simply spiced up by clever manipulators from top command of Al Queda or other terrorist team), then they will get to that what they want to do at all cost.
So, in fact, human has only one strong emotion - his own survival. Nothing else matters. And everything is related to it.
Post scriptum - by the way, it is so strange that there is almost no human ethics school who would try to get people UNDERSTAND, that there is nothing wrong sometimes with feelings to want something you can't get, wanting to steal something - because it is instinct and it should be understood not denied. It is NOT sin to feel that way. It IS "sin" or we could say, "bad", to not take it into account and act accordingly, so no one get hurt and you get calm and easy again.
I just wanted to add to your thought, that it is VERY hard to be wealthy and powerful, and in same time haven't:
* exploited others;
* lied and cheated;
* broke the law;
* ignored common sense and responsibilities to society;
Let's be at least honest here - in this example, none of these rich people (Bill Gates, Waren) got their monies honestly. Instead of getting super rich, they could spur economical diversity and growth, not frozen it with their business dealings. But hell, who cares, money is there and it impress everyone. So let's give Bill a crown now?
Sorry for this little flamory, but Bill's playing "big good dady" is getting to my nerves - he has done lot of things wrong. Very wrong.
They werent alowed to. Simply Microsoft got his hand in keeping monopoly (after present from DOJ) and everyone on Microsoft PR payroll were raving about how perfect/good is Windows 2000/XP.
And this fact usually bears me down like a ton of bricks. Capitalism my arse, yeah, right :( It is just same old "I use you, own you and you can't do NOTHING about it" all over the place.
Ok, it is not that bad in all places, but such examples just...just seems so wrong.
Let's call you a troll, right? It is still in ALFA level, it is nor finished, nor polished, nor supported.
Damn, people sometimes have hard time to understand it.
Seriously, Samsung device looks like total rip-off of Nokia 770, Web tablet. However, it costs much less and doesn't overheat.
It is just not a bad thing as first hit for kiddie from drug dealer.
I just wonder how it is allowed BY law, because it is clearly dumping from monopoly in one vitally important market segment.
Post scriptum: free software doesn't have monopoly, so don't even brother with arguing about that...
...emmmm, it is actually nuclear weapon's launching pad :)
Yes, I know, it looks good at press, but are journalists that stupid? Honestly... 30$ milions my ass. I set a tag and give you a gift, how nice of you Bill.
Sorry, then I understood you wrong :) And I flamed a little bit too much...
Simple - because fear of death and desire of lust is strongest emotions people have
:)), art works filled with hope and naviety, songs, art, music, literature. It creates miracles with bringing something good not only for him, but for rest of us. And he is honest, at least with himself.
Ohhh, if it was so simple...
In short, people want power, because out of fear to be put away and because of will to save theirselves. So they want to get power and gain power. To gain power, they have two ways - embrase power of fear and lies (very big example seen in US and Russia), or embrase power of lust or "free will" (in ranks of set rules by you, of course). So these emotions are very powerful power yelders - if human being haven't learned to embrase fear in place of bend over for them - they are very easy to manipulate with (Others could call it "crowd stupidness" or "crowd power", whatever).
It is very simple structure and has worked for centuries.
But is it true? That human is doomed to such embarasing power schemas and structures and nothing can save him? Hell, no, just other ways are very hard to achieve. For example, forgivness, kindness, embrasing of happiness not just fake feelings - why we see such feelings in humans so rarerly? Why we see such feelings so rarerly in humans which are in power?
Many have been downplayed Christianity as lies and hyprocity. But for me, when I strip away religious stuff, it is pure belief to HUMANITY.
So what is actually Human? Being which is just very inteligent enough to build bridges, houses, change lifes of milions of his companions? Or it is entity of BELIEF, which is capable of ANYTHING in which he believes?
So back to answer - reason why these two fields are pratically pushes almost eighty percent of innovation is answer - human is weak when it doesn't believe, and he fears his demise. But when he believes, he can bring us miracles - he creates small computers for childrens to work and learn with (yeah, shameless plug for OLPC
So question is - which human will rule world in future?
Can we say it...
:) It is so hard to use these products!
Total. RedHat. Apologism.
No. Ubuntu Linux IS real product now (and also well thought-out ideas for profit), because it has stuff which works [tm], so in my opinion, it can't be compared with any dot com example. About money - you propably don't get it how BIG is Debian in Enterprise. Just because it had no serious commercial entity so far, doesn't mean that it doesn't have market share. It could even larger than RedHat.
So, no. Ubuntu is DIRECT competitor to RedHat, because it is RedHat fault that it screwed up it's desktop - sorry for all guys working there, but RedHat never took desktop seriously (hey, and nothing wrong with that, they take their way where fastest gain could be). It is not possible to work with RPM depency hell - and no, Yam is not solution, I have already checked it out. CUPS - broken. Lot of packages incompatable and not working.
I will be modded down as troll, and maybe this time I don't even care. I just wonder how many people still sticks with Fedora which is half-baked and don't try something else, because everytime after four years with Debian and Gentoo, anything related with rpm and Redhat/Fedora/Mandriva gives me headaches
Ubuntu is only about two years in market and it already captured very serious attention and user base. Guess what - there are several reasons why. Because don't looking about problems and still tweakable things, their product just WORKS. I pop in CD, read data, press eject - and disc ejects! I plug in various USB flash based devices - they again just works. Even for Movies I have two ways - EasyUbuntu and Metaverse/Universe three packages "gstreamer-plugins-bad", "gstreamer-plugins-ugly" and "gstreamer-ffmpeg" which I better prefer (I prefer Gstreamer and see great future for it). I download deb, double click - good looking information window opens, then I can check out if depencies are allright. It even checks if depencies can't be covered by repositories! Just click Install, Grant, enter your password and vola!
In resume - IMO, RedHat just screwed up it's own posiblity to own Linux desktop. Now it will be left to Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xanos, Linspire to have it. On surprise, they almost all based on Debian or Debian derative. Linux Desktop have VERY big capacity, if it's done right.
I already have iTunes replacements, Rhythmbox (still works and gets more and more stable, using everyday) and Bashnee (nice visual features and plugin system, but still *sometimes* slow as hell, partly thanks to Mono). I checked out Songbird, no problem, looks nice, but I just don't need 1:1 clone of iTunes. But anyway, it is all about choice. :)
.NET and could be easily ported. And Adobe/Macromedia will overlook their positions on that matter.
:)
But with rest of post I agree completely. It is really new wave of Linux desktop activity and this time we can reach much much higher. It is exciting, interesting AND this time Ubuntu (and as I heard Fedora and rest distros gets there too) as Linux desktop provides me colosal and very good and perfect working place.
Finally, I hope Graphisoft and Autodesk will bring their apps to Linux. AutoCAD newest version already uses
I believe that Linux desktop marketing after two years will be something about 5-7%. So...We are growing. I hope so
Let's be just realistic and replace "must be" with "should be". You know, with force you won't achieve nothing, even in proving your point.
And, ohhh, there ARE open source GIS out there, easily instalable and that stuff. Only without fancy GUI and big market name like Google behind it.
Just don't overgeneralise everything :) Some people somehow are kind of different reality or just have stuck in some cycle. Yes, I prefer Free Software and usually use it, but it is good to see commercial software to come to Linux. It provides more choice and thought it is not free software, it is still good to have that choice.
Yes, fans and very concervative free software users usually stick with "f you won't provide source, you got nothing from me" and sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Just take everything they say with handful of salt.
I checked out app now, installer in local envorement was nice, app itself is with libwine, but it is something at least.
MS employ thousands of people IN US and INDIA. Where is there thousands for Microsoft working in France? Do Microsoft have jobs in France? I don't think so.
And please stop play - ohhh, Microsoft is so great to bring benifits for local economy crap - it is pure PR and Microsoft and even everone in goverment knows it. Microsoft abuse laws of monopoly and copyright when it suits them and believe me, all world economy would be much better without them. And it is not my thoughts, but serious economical specialists which says that.
PM has to represent his people, NOT to take interest of ANY person who can *theoretically* bring monetary advantages to a country. And ohh, buy the way, Microsoft in Eirope uses Irland as a proxy, therefore not paying ANY taxes as company. Saying that Microsoft presence in market benefits country is hyprotical at it's best, if not outright lying.
Seriously, this is real "top secret" info and goverment got it loose to some God damn hacker?
I would bet that again "cool" solutions like Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Office is involved. Or better even, unconfigured and unsecured Linux or BSD server.
Propably will be modded troll, but anyway, it is crazy and scary in same time.
I don't want to stand in either side in this discussion - I don't use Java and I would be happy that world would go with Python, which is more portable and that stuff - but let's be real, Java is used heavily in enterprise and that is where Debian is aimed at and it would be very good, because hey, we are not here to make enemies, but friends :)
So what I want is clearly compromise solution, not flamewar. Problem is here that SPI and Debian-legal are in clear opposition in ANY deal with current Sun attitude. They want clear hands and not even vague hint about legal problems but there is no such possibilty, because we are living in real world, with real, different people with different goals. And legal world is fucked up that there can be any treat from anyone, so if you want to avoid that, better go to the wild and live in the tent.
And my pick is that you are not reading your own hint quite right. Lawyer should be "consulted". There are words "should" and "consulted", not "must" and "decide".
Let's be honest in what we believe. It is good that we have FSF, Debian-legal, and lot of clever minds who wants to avoid legal trouble. But in same time - let's be in touch with real world and real issues. Lot of Debian users - even faitful ones - wants to have easy instable and supported Java. No editing sources.list, no obscure packages, reading mailing lists, howtos... It is a fact. And nothing will change it.
Yes, you are right on target, but it is more than that. I see it is a fight against "evil Sun binaries". Not to troll or blame either side, I can say I understand them both, It is very clearly to see that Debian-legal has big no-no opinion to bind Debian, even remotely or vague, with Sun legal webs. Good or bad, it is hard to say, but those people just hate Sun - maybe it is justified, maybe not, I don't know. I don't use Java very much and I won't be sad it to go. BUT lot of enterprise devs/admins are would be very happy to have "apt-getable" JRE in Debian/Ubuntu. So...I just don't know. Long years everyone bashed Sun that it didn't give us distribution freedom. And now when they give some rest and are willing to help in distribution of JRE - finally, I say - then these people comes up and say "GPL or nothing".
People are afraid of binary and commercial software. Afraid of lock-in. I understand them, it is very hard to say what future will bring. But this very childish flameware without even mentioning TRUE reasons of opposition has to stop.
And people, remember - yes, maybe those "freebies" are zealots, but they are so by cause. Sun can't be wholy trusted, as they have done very bad things in past - supported SCO recently and tried to cash in on IBM vs. SCO lawsuit, and binary only/commercial software tends to break or be simply untrustable (I speak from my 13 years admin expierence). And let's not talk about legal issues, which is totally black picture most of common crowd (they don't care about paying back credit sometimes, too). So they have some rights to be what they are and have opinions what they have. What I oppose in their action, that they simply don't want compromises. It is only thing I can say I don't like with them.
Let's be honest - most developers don't give a white sh@$#%t about what clauses and doubtful legal situations can arise of use of software, so Debian-legal thoughts are usually have been taken with lot of anger and confusion. Devs just want to work with software and apps, but D-L is full of idealists and clever individuals in legal field, who see things quite differently (and it is NOTHING bad about that), and so conflict is in full force.
But in this case, I *think* it is totally overblown and feels like that Debian-legal just want to say big f12#$%k off to Java usage in Debian - non-legal arguments like "I don't use non-free", "there are ALMOST working free software implementation in main", etc says almost everything about discusssion - it is not about LEGAL situation, but about fears that if Java will be aviable in non-free and will be supported by DD, CLASSPATH and other Java projects will slowly loose momentum they achieved so far now (Again, it is just my thougts after reading almost half of thread).
I can understand both sides, but thinking "We will get free implementation, we don't need stinkin Sun official implementation" sounds like too much dreaming. Let's be honest - it is simply not possible. Oracle won't use CLASSPATH, they will insist to use JRE. Other software will too. Yes, there will be desktop apps which will run on Free Software versions just fine - like Eclipse, lot of different small aps, but for enterprise it will be big NO-NO.
I certainly support your comment. Ubuntu Dapper's brown/yellow is so calm on eyes that I don't even notice how long I work. And I work long and with lot of open windows.
Seems that you are running LiveCD install disk. In this case, use alternative version with old-skul text installer and then propapbly all will be fine.
Hmmmm, no. My pick is that Ubuntu Dapper got to one level where you get user (not A geek) to use Linux as primary operational system. In result, lot of different bugs have been filled, for example, about using three sound cards (!) or three monitors, because people have started Dapper for almost everything. And as bugsquad is very warm and responsive to bug fillers, in result, people look at things, test them, fill bugs. Lot of those bugs could be fixed by geek, which have been running RedHat, Slackware, Debian, whatever. Ubuntu rises this bar to common users and in result, lot of bugs for next level to fix :)
By default, Dapper is the best Ubuntu distro, without any doubt. Bug count just shows how much users are earing to improve and polish this already good distro.