And when will Gillette-Intel come out with its five-core Fusion system with the patented "Serving Surface" for a close and comfortable network solution?
Kefka was the first magitek knight (you know, like Celes & General Leo, only their procedures worked). The procedure for infusing him with magic went wrong, and his mind became unstable. Sephiroth fused with JENOVA and, umm, became mentally unstable. Your point?
I've already addressed this point elsewhere in the thread.
For completeness, in IV, Zemus/Zeromus wanted to wipe out everyone so that Lunarians could colonize the planet rather than hibernating on the damn moon forever, and in V, X-Death just wanted to get out of the damn seal he'd been stuck in by the original four warriors and resume taking over the world.
Yes, I'll freely admit that Kefka is a better villain than either of those two. Of course, a chihuahua in a tutu would be a better villain than either of those two. Zemus (as opposed to Zeromus, which was just "absolute evil" and came out of friggin' nowhere) did at least have a reasonable motive, but besides that he's a cipher, an absentee villain, letting Golbez do everything interesting up to the end. And Ex-Death just blew.
If the opening part of a game teaches players -- in excruciating detail -- how to use a deadly boring technique, then players will tend to use that technique and get bored. Games are meant to be fun, and if the fun stuff is so well hidden that many players never find it, then the game has failed.
Did you perhaps try reading the manual? Also, there were more tutorials in the game than just that one. One of them quite clearly states that the GFs have various abilities that make your life easier. This stuff isn't hidden at all, you just didn't bother paying attention to it.
In other words, in-depth knowledge about the game should be the difference between victory and defeat. Not the difference between fun and boredom.
Well, that's your opinion, I suppose. Personally, I think that requiring someone to use advanced techniques to succeed is more frustrating than making them optional, and also misses the point of the whole concept of "advanced techniques."
As for whether or not the draw system itself should been more fun? Perhaps. But I'm not sure how it's any less fun than the button-mashing hard-leveling you'd have to do in any other FF to make your characters powerful. At least in FF8 you're given a fun alternative.
But he is not a good leader for a large group of people
He did quite well with the Garden, in fact. Squall doesn't believe that he's a good leader, but that doesn't mean that he isn't. It is possible for someone to have a lone-wolf personality yet at the same time have leadership skills, you know.
Indeed, why Squall to lead the Garden when he doesn't even want to? Why does he have to babysit some impossibly stupid comrades from killing themselves?
Both good questions, but they aren't really criticisms of the game or of Squall's character. In fact, they are both addressed by the game; Squall has to do these things because he's fated to by what happens at the game's end. And to a lesser extent, he has to do these things because everyone else wants him to. And Squall is nothing if not ridiculously concerned with what other people want.
I'd much rather see FF3 (because it's the one early FF that's really worth playing now-a-days) and FF7 (because it's currently an eyesore) modernized. And that's exactly what Square is doing with FF3, while FF7 has a pretty good chance of being upgraded eventually.
Because it's power, dipshit. What more reason do you want?!
Maybe a reason that actually means something? Everybody wants power. But people want power for different reasons. The reason why Kefka wants power (and the reason he blows things up) isn't specified anywhere.
Which is, it's worth noting, almost EXACTLY the same as Sephiroth's "motivation" for anything in FF7. (Why is Sephy destroying stuff? 'Cause his REAL mommy did, and he's a big mommy's boy.)
Might be a good idea to actually be right before you make claims like this. His motivation has nothing to do with the fact that Jenova (who isn't even Sephiroth's "mommy") destroyed things. In fact, he doesn't even know that Jenova was responsible for what happened before. The reason why Sephiroth does what he does is because he's been fooled into thinking that he and Jenova were the last of the Cetra, and that the human race was responsible for wiping out the Cetra instead of Jenova herself.
the combat system encourages (nay, demands!) that you spend massive amounts of time drawing cards instead of having fun.
Ah, here's another one. You don't "draw cards," BTW.
Also, the characters are interchangeable.
If you mean gameplay-wise, they're much like those in most of the other FFs. The characters in FF2, FF3, and FF5 are completely interchangeable (and FF1 as well if you bring the character creation screen into consideration), while those in all of the FFs from FF6 on are nearly completely interchangeable. Except maybe FF9, I don't remember much about that one.
As for FF8's plot, it was pretty weak. The game didn't really gear up until about Disc 3, and at least one scene that's important to understanding Squall's character development is optional. But the story (which, as you should know, is not the same as the plot) is pretty good, certainly better than FF6's or FF4's. (FF6's plot was worse than FF8's too; it fell totally apart halfway through.)
The combat system can be horribly abused in the late game to make everyone into hideous nuke characters (if you power-level), but for the majority of the game, there is rich diversity in the characters abilities that most later FF games has not had.
That diversity ain't that rich. There's very little difference between how Cyan's sword techniques distinguish him and how Squall's Renzokuken distinguishes him, for instance. The only real difference between the two is that you can use Cyan's techniques at any time. (And you can use Squall's limit break at almost any time if you know what you're doing.) The only diversity in FF6 is the sheer number of characters, and that damages other parts of the game far more than it benefits the battle system.
As for the differences between the Junction system and the Esper system, there aren't that many as far as interchangeability is concerned. Just as it takes a while to hard-level everyone into using the best magic in FF6, it takes a while to build everyone's GFs and magic stocks up in FF8. The difference is that FF8's advancement methods are far more enjoyable--if you know what you're doing, of course.
Not every story has to be twisted and convoluted with hard to understand characters.
You're right, but that fact doesn't make Kefka a good villain, or even a mediocre one. I'm not saying that Kefka should be hard to understand, simply that there should be something to understand.
Kefka was insane because of the Magitek experiment but it also left him with a taste of power. This taste of power gave him cravings for more power.
A reasonable theory, but there's no explanation for what makes power so enticing to him, or why he uses it to the ends that he does.
Aeris alone is probably the main reason they loved FF VII.
Not me. I was actually kind of glad when she died. The main reason why I like FF7 more than most of the other FFs is because of its story. You can talk about plotholes all you want (and I'd say that most of them probably come from your own weak understanding of the plot), and the translation was pretty bad, but at least it tried to have a storyline that went beyond the utter simplicity of the games that came before it. Even today FF7 deals with the issue of identity better than most other video games.
As for Chrono Trigger, it deserves a lot more credit than both it and the early FFs get.
Squall is actually the best-written character of any FF game. The problem is that he's also very unsympathetic to most players, especially on the surface, so not many people really pay attention to his development or the motives behind his outward behavior.
BTW, Squall's friends were totally useless and whined quite a bit, but Squall himself was a very effective leader and kept to himself most of the time. If you want whiny and useless, take a look at Tidus.
FSVO "develops." In reality, FF6 doesn't develop any of them in any way beyond the cliche. Of course, you could say the same thing about FF7, with the very arguable exception of Cloud.
And FF7 certainly was revolutionary (or perhaps "influential" is a better word). Before it came out, the console RPG was very much a niche genre in the West, even considering the lower sales of games back then. Now-a-days it's the most popular genre behind the old standbys of sports and action. And then there's the fact that it was the first 3D console RPG of note, just like SM64 was the first 3D platformer of note.
Kefka starts as a general in the Imperial army. The Empire is greedy for land and power (obviously, or it wouldn't be The Empire). So Kefka is already a powerful goon in the goon army. He's also a prick. So he hatches a plan to not only usurp the emperorship, but also to take over the world and rule it to his greedy ends. In the process, he "blows a lot of shit up and kills people". It also seems that he's mentally unstable, and by that, I mean that he's batshit-fucking-loco.
OK. Why is Kefka a prick? Why is he mentally unstable? Why does he want to take over the world other than the fact that taking over the world makes him powerful? What distinguishes him from all of the other cookie-cutter villains in all of the Silver Age comic-books of the world?
I'm going to head the only possible counter-argument off at the pass: In the game, it's actually shown that Kefka was made insane due to an experimental technique in Magitek infusion. But it's left to be explained how this motivates Kefka to take over the world and kill a lot of people (even crazy people have a motivation to do things beyond "I'm crazy"), nor how the circumstances of his insanity affect our understanding of his character in any meaningful way.
You've accidentally pointed out why argument about whether or not FF6's gameplay is better than FF7's is silly. The gameplay of the games is so similar that it's really easy to refer to the widgets in FF6 as "materia" without even realizing that you made a mistake.
Never meant to imply that Sephiroth had a great personality, just that it was far better than Kefka's "HOLY SHIT I'M CRAZY" spiel.
His "motive" was, essentially, "I want to blow shit up"
Incorrect. Sephiroth had a strong and clear reason for doing what he did, relating to issues with his birth and heritage. Kefka, on the other hand, was just insane. Not insane for any particular reason that would relate to the plot, just insane.
In all previous FF games (although end-game FF6 came dangerously close to "mash attack") you had to decide which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies.
Until FF12, FF3 and FF4 were the only ones that really ever tried to go beyond button-mashing in battle. The other early FFs, especially FF2 and FF5, were just as much about button mashing and just as little about "deciding which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies" as any of the later FFs.
Still, though, you don't seem to understand that gameplay goes beyond the battle screen. Take FF8, for example. It's true that FF8's battle system is all about button-mashing, but the Junction system combined with item refining, the card game, and so forth give the gameplay overall a much greater depth than in any FF before or since.
This fanboyism and weird love for FF7 is just another example of the rift between gamers who remember what games were like before Sony destroyed the industry by making it "cool" and gamers who remember their "first Playstation".
Oh, God, not this crap again. How many times is this chestnut going to get trotted out before someone finally decides to shoot it and turn it into glue?
I've played FF since it came out in 1990, and I still think that FF7, FF8, and FFX are superior to any of the ones previous. And if you really want me to measure my geek dick for you, I'll add that FF3 (that's the real FF3, not FF6) has the second-best gameplay of the entire FF series. I bet most of you so-called "true FF fans" haven't even played that game at all.
So stop it with that "only noobs like FF7" crap, it's not true.
See, I love trying to figure out the mindset that would lead someone to think that FF4 and FF6 have deep characters. Posts like yours help. For instance, now I see that oldschool FF fans have a definition for "villain" that states "someone who blows a lot of shit up and kills people." Motive, personality, or anything else apparently doesn't enter into it. And as a bonus, you also give me a definition for "gameplay:" Bashing a button over and over again until the enemy dies. Thanks for giving me a glimpse into your mind, good buddy.
If I were you, I'd wait until I actually got my hands on EA's Wii games before I said that they were changing their mechanics in any fundamental way. Remember, this is EA we're talking about. They innovate, but almost always incrementally.
Rob
Re:Doom, Quake, & Wolfenstein 3D?
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Romero's New Gig
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· Score: 1
It's dishonest to talk about how Romero hasn't made a worthwhile game in ten years while neglecting to mention that Carmack hasn't either. (Worthwhile engines and tech demos, yes...)
Well, besides Quake 3 Arena, but how hard is it to design an MP-only FPS once you've got the engine developed? Especially one as streamlined as Q3A was.
I loved the hell out of this mag. Besides a few issues after the opening December 1988 edition, I used to have every issue that VG&CE produced from beginning to end. Even after they changed their name to "VideoGames" and did a complete overhaul of the book, I managed to start liking it again after about a year's shakedown period. Unfortunately I don't know where most of my copies went; I was thinking about scanning my entire collection at one point. Along with the pre-N64 era of Nintendo Power, this is the magazine I miss the most.
And then they'll say "the total comes to how much?", look over, see how much the PS2 price has dropped since when they first bought it, and say "screw it, I'll wait a year until it's half the price."
Ah, but what they won't say is "screw it, I'll get an Xbox 360 and/or a Wii instead."
Yeah, that's the problem I have with the most common criticisms of Superman games. It's like the critics expect Superman to be Superman regardless of the fact that that would make the game very boring.
I did come up with a possible solution to the problem, though; make a Superman game using the Dynasty Warriors engine, or something similar. That way you can have Superman beating up a bunch of hoodlums with no trouble to placate the "Superman is invincible" crowd, then make the bosses powerful in some way to present an actual challenge.
Rob
Am I the only one who liked the NES Superman?
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Gamer's Kryptonite
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· Score: 1
I played that game quite a bit when I was younger. Once I figured out how things worked, it was a fun (though heavily flawed) adventure game.
Slashdot Mirror
And when will Gillette-Intel come out with its five-core Fusion system with the patented "Serving Surface" for a close and comfortable network solution?
Rob
Kefka was the first magitek knight (you know, like Celes & General Leo, only their procedures worked). The procedure for infusing him with magic went wrong, and his mind became unstable. Sephiroth fused with JENOVA and, umm, became mentally unstable. Your point?
I've already addressed this point elsewhere in the thread.
For completeness, in IV, Zemus/Zeromus wanted to wipe out everyone so that Lunarians could colonize the planet rather than hibernating on the damn moon forever, and in V, X-Death just wanted to get out of the damn seal he'd been stuck in by the original four warriors and resume taking over the world.
Yes, I'll freely admit that Kefka is a better villain than either of those two. Of course, a chihuahua in a tutu would be a better villain than either of those two. Zemus (as opposed to Zeromus, which was just "absolute evil" and came out of friggin' nowhere) did at least have a reasonable motive, but besides that he's a cipher, an absentee villain, letting Golbez do everything interesting up to the end. And Ex-Death just blew.
Rob
If the opening part of a game teaches players -- in excruciating detail -- how to use a deadly boring technique, then players will tend to use that technique and get bored. Games are meant to be fun, and if the fun stuff is so well hidden that many players never find it, then the game has failed.
Did you perhaps try reading the manual? Also, there were more tutorials in the game than just that one. One of them quite clearly states that the GFs have various abilities that make your life easier. This stuff isn't hidden at all, you just didn't bother paying attention to it.
In other words, in-depth knowledge about the game should be the difference between victory and defeat. Not the difference between fun and boredom.
Well, that's your opinion, I suppose. Personally, I think that requiring someone to use advanced techniques to succeed is more frustrating than making them optional, and also misses the point of the whole concept of "advanced techniques."
As for whether or not the draw system itself should been more fun? Perhaps. But I'm not sure how it's any less fun than the button-mashing hard-leveling you'd have to do in any other FF to make your characters powerful. At least in FF8 you're given a fun alternative.
Rob
But he is not a good leader for a large group of people
He did quite well with the Garden, in fact. Squall doesn't believe that he's a good leader, but that doesn't mean that he isn't. It is possible for someone to have a lone-wolf personality yet at the same time have leadership skills, you know.
Indeed, why Squall to lead the Garden when he doesn't even want to? Why does he have to babysit some impossibly stupid comrades from killing themselves?
Both good questions, but they aren't really criticisms of the game or of Squall's character. In fact, they are both addressed by the game; Squall has to do these things because he's fated to by what happens at the game's end. And to a lesser extent, he has to do these things because everyone else wants him to. And Squall is nothing if not ridiculously concerned with what other people want.
Rob
I'd much rather see FF3 (because it's the one early FF that's really worth playing now-a-days) and FF7 (because it's currently an eyesore) modernized. And that's exactly what Square is doing with FF3, while FF7 has a pretty good chance of being upgraded eventually.
Rob
Because it's power, dipshit. What more reason do you want?!
Maybe a reason that actually means something? Everybody wants power. But people want power for different reasons. The reason why Kefka wants power (and the reason he blows things up) isn't specified anywhere.
Which is, it's worth noting, almost EXACTLY the same as Sephiroth's "motivation" for anything in FF7. (Why is Sephy destroying stuff? 'Cause his REAL mommy did, and he's a big mommy's boy.)
Might be a good idea to actually be right before you make claims like this. His motivation has nothing to do with the fact that Jenova (who isn't even Sephiroth's "mommy") destroyed things. In fact, he doesn't even know that Jenova was responsible for what happened before. The reason why Sephiroth does what he does is because he's been fooled into thinking that he and Jenova were the last of the Cetra, and that the human race was responsible for wiping out the Cetra instead of Jenova herself.
Rob
the combat system encourages (nay, demands!) that you spend massive amounts of time drawing cards instead of having fun.
Ah, here's another one. You don't "draw cards," BTW.
Also, the characters are interchangeable.
If you mean gameplay-wise, they're much like those in most of the other FFs. The characters in FF2, FF3, and FF5 are completely interchangeable (and FF1 as well if you bring the character creation screen into consideration), while those in all of the FFs from FF6 on are nearly completely interchangeable. Except maybe FF9, I don't remember much about that one.
As for FF8's plot, it was pretty weak. The game didn't really gear up until about Disc 3, and at least one scene that's important to understanding Squall's character development is optional. But the story (which, as you should know, is not the same as the plot) is pretty good, certainly better than FF6's or FF4's. (FF6's plot was worse than FF8's too; it fell totally apart halfway through.)
The combat system can be horribly abused in the late game to make everyone into hideous nuke characters (if you power-level), but for the majority of the game, there is rich diversity in the characters abilities that most later FF games has not had.
That diversity ain't that rich. There's very little difference between how Cyan's sword techniques distinguish him and how Squall's Renzokuken distinguishes him, for instance. The only real difference between the two is that you can use Cyan's techniques at any time. (And you can use Squall's limit break at almost any time if you know what you're doing.) The only diversity in FF6 is the sheer number of characters, and that damages other parts of the game far more than it benefits the battle system.
As for the differences between the Junction system and the Esper system, there aren't that many as far as interchangeability is concerned. Just as it takes a while to hard-level everyone into using the best magic in FF6, it takes a while to build everyone's GFs and magic stocks up in FF8. The difference is that FF8's advancement methods are far more enjoyable--if you know what you're doing, of course.
Rob
Not every story has to be twisted and convoluted with hard to understand characters.
You're right, but that fact doesn't make Kefka a good villain, or even a mediocre one. I'm not saying that Kefka should be hard to understand, simply that there should be something to understand.
Kefka was insane because of the Magitek experiment but it also left him with a taste of power. This taste of power gave him cravings for more power.
A reasonable theory, but there's no explanation for what makes power so enticing to him, or why he uses it to the ends that he does.
Rob
Ah, look, someone who has no clue how to play the game finally shows up.
Rob
Aeris alone is probably the main reason they loved FF VII.
Not me. I was actually kind of glad when she died. The main reason why I like FF7 more than most of the other FFs is because of its story. You can talk about plotholes all you want (and I'd say that most of them probably come from your own weak understanding of the plot), and the translation was pretty bad, but at least it tried to have a storyline that went beyond the utter simplicity of the games that came before it. Even today FF7 deals with the issue of identity better than most other video games.
As for Chrono Trigger, it deserves a lot more credit than both it and the early FFs get.
Rob
Squall is actually the best-written character of any FF game. The problem is that he's also very unsympathetic to most players, especially on the surface, so not many people really pay attention to his development or the motives behind his outward behavior.
BTW, Squall's friends were totally useless and whined quite a bit, but Squall himself was a very effective leader and kept to himself most of the time. If you want whiny and useless, take a look at Tidus.
Rob
FFVI develops 12 main characters!
FSVO "develops." In reality, FF6 doesn't develop any of them in any way beyond the cliche. Of course, you could say the same thing about FF7, with the very arguable exception of Cloud.
And FF7 certainly was revolutionary (or perhaps "influential" is a better word). Before it came out, the console RPG was very much a niche genre in the West, even considering the lower sales of games back then. Now-a-days it's the most popular genre behind the old standbys of sports and action. And then there's the fact that it was the first 3D console RPG of note, just like SM64 was the first 3D platformer of note.
Rob
Kefka starts as a general in the Imperial army. The Empire is greedy for land and power (obviously, or it wouldn't be The Empire). So Kefka is already a powerful goon in the goon army. He's also a prick. So he hatches a plan to not only usurp the emperorship, but also to take over the world and rule it to his greedy ends. In the process, he "blows a lot of shit up and kills people". It also seems that he's mentally unstable, and by that, I mean that he's batshit-fucking-loco.
OK. Why is Kefka a prick? Why is he mentally unstable? Why does he want to take over the world other than the fact that taking over the world makes him powerful? What distinguishes him from all of the other cookie-cutter villains in all of the Silver Age comic-books of the world?
I'm going to head the only possible counter-argument off at the pass: In the game, it's actually shown that Kefka was made insane due to an experimental technique in Magitek infusion. But it's left to be explained how this motivates Kefka to take over the world and kill a lot of people (even crazy people have a motivation to do things beyond "I'm crazy"), nor how the circumstances of his insanity affect our understanding of his character in any meaningful way.
Rob
FF6 is inferior due to materia.
You've accidentally pointed out why argument about whether or not FF6's gameplay is better than FF7's is silly. The gameplay of the games is so similar that it's really easy to refer to the widgets in FF6 as "materia" without even realizing that you made a mistake.
Rob
Since when did Sephiroth have personality?
Never meant to imply that Sephiroth had a great personality, just that it was far better than Kefka's "HOLY SHIT I'M CRAZY" spiel.
His "motive" was, essentially, "I want to blow shit up"
Incorrect. Sephiroth had a strong and clear reason for doing what he did, relating to issues with his birth and heritage. Kefka, on the other hand, was just insane. Not insane for any particular reason that would relate to the plot, just insane.
In all previous FF games (although end-game FF6 came dangerously close to "mash attack") you had to decide which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies.
Until FF12, FF3 and FF4 were the only ones that really ever tried to go beyond button-mashing in battle. The other early FFs, especially FF2 and FF5, were just as much about button mashing and just as little about "deciding which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies" as any of the later FFs.
Still, though, you don't seem to understand that gameplay goes beyond the battle screen. Take FF8, for example. It's true that FF8's battle system is all about button-mashing, but the Junction system combined with item refining, the card game, and so forth give the gameplay overall a much greater depth than in any FF before or since.
Rob
This fanboyism and weird love for FF7 is just another example of the rift between gamers who remember what games were like before Sony destroyed the industry by making it "cool" and gamers who remember their "first Playstation".
Oh, God, not this crap again. How many times is this chestnut going to get trotted out before someone finally decides to shoot it and turn it into glue?
I've played FF since it came out in 1990, and I still think that FF7, FF8, and FFX are superior to any of the ones previous. And if you really want me to measure my geek dick for you, I'll add that FF3 (that's the real FF3, not FF6) has the second-best gameplay of the entire FF series. I bet most of you so-called "true FF fans" haven't even played that game at all.
So stop it with that "only noobs like FF7" crap, it's not true.
Rob
See, I love trying to figure out the mindset that would lead someone to think that FF4 and FF6 have deep characters. Posts like yours help. For instance, now I see that oldschool FF fans have a definition for "villain" that states "someone who blows a lot of shit up and kills people." Motive, personality, or anything else apparently doesn't enter into it. And as a bonus, you also give me a definition for "gameplay:" Bashing a button over and over again until the enemy dies. Thanks for giving me a glimpse into your mind, good buddy.
Rob
But FF8 was the pinnacle of the series
Fixed again.
Rob (Would also accept "FF7")
I don't think I've heard a more perfect description of FF6's storyline in my life.
Rob
If I were you, I'd wait until I actually got my hands on EA's Wii games before I said that they were changing their mechanics in any fundamental way. Remember, this is EA we're talking about. They innovate, but almost always incrementally.
Rob
It's dishonest to talk about how Romero hasn't made a worthwhile game in ten years while neglecting to mention that Carmack hasn't either. (Worthwhile engines and tech demos, yes...)
Well, besides Quake 3 Arena, but how hard is it to design an MP-only FPS once you've got the engine developed? Especially one as streamlined as Q3A was.
Rob
As above
I loved the hell out of this mag. Besides a few issues after the opening December 1988 edition, I used to have every issue that VG&CE produced from beginning to end. Even after they changed their name to "VideoGames" and did a complete overhaul of the book, I managed to start liking it again after about a year's shakedown period. Unfortunately I don't know where most of my copies went; I was thinking about scanning my entire collection at one point. Along with the pre-N64 era of Nintendo Power, this is the magazine I miss the most.
Rob
And then they'll say "the total comes to how much?", look over, see how much the PS2 price has dropped since when they first bought it, and say "screw it, I'll wait a year until it's half the price."
Ah, but what they won't say is "screw it, I'll get an Xbox 360 and/or a Wii instead."
Rob
Yeah, that's the problem I have with the most common criticisms of Superman games. It's like the critics expect Superman to be Superman regardless of the fact that that would make the game very boring.
I did come up with a possible solution to the problem, though; make a Superman game using the Dynasty Warriors engine, or something similar. That way you can have Superman beating up a bunch of hoodlums with no trouble to placate the "Superman is invincible" crowd, then make the bosses powerful in some way to present an actual challenge.
Rob
I played that game quite a bit when I was younger. Once I figured out how things worked, it was a fun (though heavily flawed) adventure game.
Rob