"...through a complex web of intermediates, I pay farmers so they let me live. I also pay "my" police and military to let me live by not letting other people to kill me."
Hmm, I'm not sure where you live in the world Urkki, but in my country, people are NOT put to death for being out of employment!;-) I liked hearing of how you "pay off" government officials too! I think you'd be doing us all a favour for telling us know where you're talking about! It seems like the world is "black and white", of Nanny State vs Police State, I'll thank my lucky stars that I were born in a "socialist" nation, where my right to LIVE is recognised!
I dont see it as a matter of "giving up a right", if we stop killing others. Was it such a big hassle to "give up the right to have slaves" in America? It probably was GREAT, for the Whites, to be in control of another, to class them as "below us", a "thing" or "possession".
The site also features many more Pro Slavery quotes, or mentions of how African slaves are being sold at an auction, "in good condition" etc, its shocking to our modern ethics, but was regarded as "the done thing" during its time.
I dont see myself as having "lost" any right by not killing others, be they human or nonhuman.
RE Ethical Killing, hmm, I think we could debate semantics here. I agree with self defence, if someone, be they human or nonhuman, were attacking me, I'd defend myself. Rabid Dogs are not common in my area, do they come with the territory of nations where "you have to pay to live"?;-)
In such a highly hypothetical case, I'd protect myself, but would still not see a Dog, rabid or otherwise, as an "it". We are always someONE, never a someTHING.
I understand that to be an integral part in how we deal with others, if we see them as "subhuman", an "it", or as our equal, think of war propaganda, about "dehumanising the enemy". In such cases, we "justify killing them"
Why would we believe it right to treat others as our "resources"? Thats a terrible way to describe one another, "you're my resource" ! Sounds like No Agenda:-)
I dont think there can be shades of "what is property and who is another being", do you? Someone is either someONE or someTHING.
Could we use an example from my second last blog post please? I commented here, as I've mentioned already, about the ad I saw calling Chickens "IT".
How do you feel about the ad, in regards to the videos of my Chicken Friends also on the page? How would we define a time when its "right" for us to override any Right they have to NOT be property?
http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/12/chicken-so-tasty-it-sells-itself.html
Best wishes Urkki
PETA class themselves as "Animal Rights", possibly because its "cooler";-)
They have whats called a "New Welfarist" approach, they are mostly Vegan (the staff), but promote NonVeganism, "Happy Meat" etc, because "Veganism is hard!". I strongly disagree with this, there is nothing difficult about being Vegan!
I live at the bottom of the world, not bloody Los Angeles or Portland, some city filled with "hipsters";-)
Its easy to be Vegan here, its easy to be Vegan pretty much anywhere, granted, I guess it could be hard buying Soymilk if you lived in Antartica, not many local stores that carry it, I hear;-) Then again, in such locations, not many convenience stores anywhere! They make/bring/are sent their own supplies!
I'm glad you've heard of PETA, please dont assume they speak for ANYONE, such as Abolitionist Vegans ( http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ ) like myself! I dont think you have, you mentioned as such, just making it clear to others who may be reading this comment.
No Animal Welfare, OR Animal Rights group I know of are talking about "throwing animals out onto the streets", all that I know of have always spoke about adopting unwanted nonhumans.
I cannot speak on nutrition, I am not a health professional, although many of them also have crazy positions! Think of all the "fad diets" out there!;-)
I find it highly unlikely that anyone could NOT be Vegan. I've had tests done for Iron levels, and were fine. I am 23 years old, 1.95 Metres tall, up until a few months ago, I cycled 66 kilometres a day, and have a job moving furniture. I'm health:-) I would go so far to say that all Vegans I know would be healthier than "the median" New Zealander or American, they would tend to be thinner, more muscular, more active etc.
hey Johnny5000, I dont feel like I can comment on Animal Shelters, I've always hated visiting them, my family have volunteered there, I think they would be better qualified to talk about them than I would. I've looked after many "unwanted" animals before, including my Chicken Friends now,
And I think its best if more people can look after these other animals.
I hope you've seen the difference between an Abolitionist Vegan position, and PETA's, they do not speak "for the Animal advocates"!
RE your signature, we are animals too ! Unless you are a Creationist?;-)
RE living vs suffering, you really picked up the heart of the issue. Welfare vs Rights.
Animal Welfare is "we can do whatever the heck we like, we are God given masters of this world, they are ours, they are things to us, oh, but lets get it over with quickly, "humanely"".
Animal Rights is that Animals have a base right not to be "ours", to be our things, our property. I have no more right to kill the next Dog I see than I would to break into your house and steal your television. There is of course, quite a difference between "property theft" and killing someone! However, under Animal Welfare, "as long as you do it humanely..."
I remember months back a NZ news story, a Pacific Islander who came here and killed his family Dog, and cooked them. They were "hit on the head with a bat", and then their throat was cut. This caused a bloody outrage here, with people talking about killing the man responsible...seriously!
The problem is violence, it has nothing to do with the solution. The SPCA and others "couldnt charge him, because he killed IT humanely...", getting hit on the head, to "knock you out", and then having your throat cut is "humane"? And legal? If you're a Dog, it sure is!
Is it right? I would most certainly argue that it is not!
I've seen Chickens, and other animals, in cages before, many have simply given up. They are broken animals. I know of people who rescue animals from these situations, and they talk of how the animals are, taking their first true steps...of seeing the sun... of touching grass, of being able to dig...I could never honestly imagine what it must be like for them.
An Activist group has placed a wireless video camera at a "Chicken Farm", its streaming live to the internet. It breaks my heart to watch, as someone who looks after Chickens. I would feel awful if I left my little Friends in their coop for a single day, let alone their lives, to value them as "things". I've only ever watched the stream for a minute or so. Heres a blog post, with the link:
If I were honestly in such conditions for all of my life, with absolutely no realistic chance of getting out, I think I'd rather be dead.
My hope is that more people will be Vegan, to directly help others, and that they can look after former "farm animals" like my Chicken Friends:
http://www.youtube.com/jaywontdart
I'll answer your question seriously, although I found it shocking!
"earn their living"? Do you "earn your keep" by paying me for allowing you to live? Why would other animals? What gives us any more right to harm another, human or nonhuman, any more than I'd have the right to invade another country, kill all the humans (and nonhumans) there?
I use this quote as my email signature
""We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth."
~Henry Beston"
I found it on Earthlings, which is a very graphic documentary about how we treat other animals. It contains slaughterhouse footage, farming, "fishing", killing whales, dolphins, vets, medical experiments etc. I never mention it, I use positive images FOR Veganism, rather than attacking nonVeganism, I'm not a fan of political attack ads. "That guys a sonnofabitch! Dont vote for him!..."
I dont think anyone seriously thinks "there'll be a magic puff of purple smoke enveloping the globe, that all armies will lower their guns, that all (animal) farmers will allow animals to live..."
There are some ~7 Billion people alive, we kill over 56 Billion land animals each year, from the UN FOA 2007 statistics (PDF here http://bit.ly/56billion ). It simply wouldnt be possible to expect (much) more than 56 Billion animals to suddenly get homes with "only" ~7 Billion people alive! I also do not see large scale "releases" of animals to live free.
Supply and Demand, as more Vegans promote Veganism, not "Happy Meat", Demand will decrease over time. How long will it take? Dont ask me! Realistically, certainly not in my lifetime? I like Tim Giers article, A Vegan World in 8 years
However long it will take, a decline in dead flesh, bodily secretions, skin etc bought, less will be "made", less animals forcibly impregnated, less animals born etc etc etc. If we are killing some 56 Billion now, that number would decrease to near zero. I'm sure there will always be people who kill other animals, just as there are people who kill other humans.
Urkki, I would say there is absolutely no such thing as an "ethical" way to kill others. We kill animals, in the case of "meat", keep them alive to take their eggs, control their menstrual cycle, artificially impregnate them, kill the now unwanted child (through "inductions", I covered the topic here, http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/episode-37-hey-hey-hey-nah-nah-nah.html , links to news videos are at the bottom in Sources), for milk.
And for what? Pleasure, and profit, both ours.
I noticed the use of "it" to describe animals, my last blog post was about a McDonalds Facebook ad I saw, calling Chickens "It"
As a Vegan, I'm always interested when these issues come up on my usual websites. I, like many of the other Animal Rights people here visit Slashdot, Ars, Engadget, Gizmodo etc daily, we dont cause any fuss, but when these "stories" arise, "ohhhhh, they're hypocrites", or "I'm gonna have me a big steak, yummy mc yum yums!!!111!!!" are the usual posts.
"PETA can't rightfully preach about animal rights while euthanizing tens of thousands of unwanted pets every year. Hypocrisy at its finest.".
They can "preach" Animal Rights while also practising euthanasia you realise? Just as I love being alive, but were I to have Cancer such as others in my family, I could well imagine rather being dead, than to die slowly over the months. Now, I much prefer the idea of No Kill shelters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-kill_shelter , I dont know how practical they are in real life. I've had family members who've volunteered with the SPCA etc, I myself have no hands on experience of this kind.
I agree with practically NOTHING coming from PETA, I think it must obviously be wrong that they "put to sleep" so many animals each year.
However, please dont write off Animal Rights because of PETA's actions.
Both sides of my family come from NZ mining roots. I can understand mining towns, its mining towns that are literally 10 hours from anywhere else that I find odd!:)
I do have a question for you, why do it? Why have towns in the middle of nowhere, over such a massive CONTINENT? I genuinely mean this, it sounds a bit like the "super size" offer, "well....because its on offer...because its there....."
It sounds a bloody nuisance for all concerned! And what does anyone gain, mineral resources? I can understand a few such towns, but it really seemed, from my SINGLE trip to Australia a few years ago, that there are developed cities on the coastline of the country, and in the middle is one impossibly large burning desert. Perhaps the answer is for all over populated, freezing cold countries to "move to Australia", the continent, and fill that bad boy up?
Is there any practical way of covering such massive distances with highways, fibre etc?
Just being a (literally) dense New Zealander, who walked two city blocks to get to primary school, walked/cycled 4KM to get to High School, and to this day lives without a car.
Think about it, I'm 23, I have a CRT television set that I may NEVER turn on out of necessity again, I use my 27 inch iMac, my iPod, my iPhone and my iPad for iEverything. I own well over 100 DVD's, all are ripped to my computers hard drive, the thought of touching a disc is laughable to me now:) Since I were about....13 or so, I'd been able to download music online through P2P etc...over dialup, a REALLY SHITTY quality MP3 could have taken 10+ minutes to arrive...but I did it. I actually enjoy buying music online now, especially when its fast, and Just Works for a fair price.
One of my favourite new artists is Drake. I have all his "mixtapes" (MP3's with Metatags identifying them as being "from the same album", what were you thinking?) and really appreciate the fairly recent trend of major artists giving away free singles online to build hype. Kanye West and "GOOD Fridays", Swizz Beats and "Monster Mondays" etc etc etc.
I saw Drake on some American television late night show...at the end, the idiot host held up a box made of plastic, it was ridiculous looking! Flimsy, it could break, the door could snap, the tines that hold the CD inside easily come off, making it useless for holding the disc....just terrible. Overall, it looked CHEAP, a mass produced bit of clear plastic, made in lots of a million, with couple bits of paper stapled together chucked into "the cover slot", yeah, you take the booklet out, you lose "the cover" for the case....
What a joke! What a low quality, USELESS thing! Who the hell would ever want that?
Oh yeah. Many older people still buy "home media". I'd been so self absorbed to not consider that *not everyone* buys music through iTunes. I find it hard to imagine people in their 20's not a) downloading Torrents for free b) buying the album for 20 bucks on iTunes, but obviously SOMEONE is buying modern albums on CD.
I think of my work friends, who are 50+. I got my iPad, and my iPhone before they were sold in my country, I imported them, in the case of my Original iPhone, I jailbroke it, using someone elses software, myself. My work friends were impressed...kinda....that I'd spend so much on a bit of metal and glass (which they probably find ugly, as they are Baby Boomers and can only appreciate shitty, slow old V8's with giant fins etc...), it is meaningless for them. I sit with them every day, for months, playing games on my iPad, using my iPhone, nothing, they dont care.
THEN, these devices are on television, for no bloody reason, for example, the Russian Prime Minister showed our countries leader the iPad, and BOTH of them eagerly told me "your tablet was on the news last night! The leader of....", it was a BIG deal for them, they saw it on tv, they didnt give a shit that they sat opposite it, that I offered to explain why THEY should have one themselves....they saw it on TV, and they were INTERESTED.
How many Baby Boomers are going through a END of life crisis? Who want to "feel young" again? Many may not have "been down" with this "iPod thing", they have no idea what Podcasts are, but now they will see "The Beatles, now on iTunes! Apple, WOW!", and they will WANT TO BUY the albums once more. They'll no doubt feel GREAT doing it too, especially if they go out and buy a new iPod Touch, they'll really feel like they are "in the loop", and with their favourite songs again too.
Yes, The Beatles on iTunes is not really a big deal for me personally, but I can *understand* that its a major marker in the history of music, of digital downloads being mainstream, of millions of older people, who all have credit cards and cash, willing to pay money for....what may as well be nothing, nothing tangible, but they HAVE their favourite songs again!
As it seems my generation are so often NOT buying music, and finding "alternative" stuff given away for free, away from "main labels" etc, as the recording industry feels forced to focus on over produced pop, "safe bets", then its a GREAT thing to introduce your product to MILLIONS of people who WILL pay!
I'm glad you realise I wasnt so much replying to what you had said, but to the general "oh, if they wanted to market it, THEN it would have been a whopping success..." excuses.
In terms of how excited consumers are about a product, based on the companies previous offerings, hello, are not "95%" of us running Windows?;) I highly doubt 95% of us are using iPods, yet the iPod gets all the credit!
pins of reality?
If it really is a matter of marketing, if Apples products are lacking in every possible way, except for their image, then why have other companies not burst that image-bubble, with their pins of reality?
It really must be something wrong with Microsoft, rather than anything Apple in particular is doing so well.
pins of reality?
I wouldnt think Apple created the hype around the Original iPhone, it deserved all, and more, of what it got. I remember both the iPod and iPhone blowing my mind...when I first held my cousins iPod...it was everything stopped, it was the first REAL "mp3 player", it felt like a flying car. The iPhone was all this, and more, I was driven almost insane by the constant talk online of multi touch this, of smartphone that. I finally managed to order an Original iPhone from America, and jailbreak it myself, using a software tool.
pins of reality?
I have no doubts that honest, smart, funny and gifted people work for Microsoft, surely then, it must be some kind of management issue? That the company cannot move in one direction? From what we've seen, Win Phone 7 has none of the "sexy" of the iPhone, none of its "ease of use", its "beauty", it does not offer anything hardware (or software) equivalent to Android, nor as many models. It has *nothing* I could possibly want, and a million things I feel I would *need*.
For me personally, the Win Phone 7 devices seem flawed on every level...."oh, but they have Xbox Live..."
This post is not so much to you in general, but cmon, lets all stop giving other, non-Apple companies a break for "oh, but they just didnt bother marketing their product...", its 2010, marketing employees of a VERY LARGE company should damn well know how to MARKET their own damn products by now!
"ohhhh....Apple only make people buy their products because they market everywhere....ads....posters...events.....", FINE, so why dont the other manufacturers do the same, and "blow Apple out of the water" once and for all? Statistics generally show that other companies, Microsoft included, spend MORE on advertising annually....and where the hell does it go? Because there is more to these smartphones than just marketing, although it is VERY necessary! Its not a matter of them not having enough money to market either, they generally seem to blow it on useless crap, or perhaps by having "plan B" devices waiting to come out in six months time, think of the Kin and Windows Phone 7... if anything, the Kin should have been a model of Win Phone 7, the cheapest model with fairly basic features, designed for parents to give their teenagers.
"oh, but they didnt market it enough" is *not* an excuse, they SHOULD have! I've grown up despising Microsoft, from an early age, since the mid 2000's however, they've been TRAGICALLY clumsy, think WinMobile, Zune, Kin..... they have NOTHING capable of execution, perhaps Xbox, ok, who is to blame? Balllmer?!?!?
Again though, there is something to be said when pretty much the entire world has GOOD broadband and cellphone reception...except in the USA...
This shouldn't be brushed away, "oh well, you cant win them all HA!", something should be done, vote with your wallet! The USA must close the 3G access gap!
Technologically advanced, maybe, depending on how you look at it, as there is tremendous disparity between the cities and the countryside in that regard.
A remote mountain in Nepal has better 3G service than San Francisco, a large progressive city in "the world's only superpower"...
I agree with "liberal" and "conservative" being terrible labels, however, the rest of the world gets on just fine with "left" and "right" wing, why can't America?
I also despise the term "freedom" in this example, as if somehow receiving healthcare, public education, libraries.... is some TERRIBLE affliction, imposed by an insane tyrant!
Its not a matter of being "free of", its a matter of "not getting shit".
Note, I'm "Right Wing" by international standards, the USA's main two parties are Right, and Ultra Right, why can you not simply have Centre Left and Centre Right like the rest of the world? And also colour them correctly, Red is for "left wing", Blue for "right wing"! You know, like, "The Reds are invading..."?
Things America needs to change reason #42 the Metric System....
I've seen a photo of an Australian Apple store where it seems a CAR hit the glass? Perhaps a large object hurled at the glass? In a very thick pane, a very large crack, it looked like it happened on a street corner.
Very beautiful design, how come other companies refuse to be interesting and desirable? Well, theres that Nokia store...or the Microsoft outfits....I hear they're *REALLY* popular, with lines out the door;)
We are traditionally against GM, although tests remain, just as we are proud of being the first country to grant women voting rights, suffrage, and being "Nuclear Free", although we do have Radiation Therepy and smoke detectors with Americium
In regards to omnivorism, try playing another round of "Defensive Omnivore Bingo";)
http://bit.ly/veganbingo
We can live just fine with animal byproducts or without, without "special care", although compare people of each lifestyle and come to your own conclusions, the worlds becoming obese because of Veganism, right? I live in New Zealand, now the worlds third most obese nation, its a disgrace.
I use positive examples when talking about what we do to animals with people, I'm not here to argue for the 56 Billion land animals killed annually (UN FOA 2007 PDF http://bit.ly/56billion ), I mention the Chickens I look after, they get into mischief:) http://bit.ly/chickensax
I've many more videos, taken on my iPhone 4 on my YouTube account.
Theres something very sad that so many treat animals as just "property", as things, an "it", rather than a "he" or "she".
As a Vegan, I wish we *WEREN'T* so invested in Animal Agriculture, which remains very profitable without subsidy.
This story is of a spoilt USA crying after being beaten at its own crooked game. My parents have this image of China as rural agriculture, of living off five grains of rice a day. I'm 22, and my generation probably see things differently :
I have great hope in Telsa, again, despite the fact that perhaps many will grow up believing "Tesla" makes cars that run on laptop batteries instead of essentially inventing radio, electricity..., but if you read more on their history, it seems to be quite difficult for Tesla to be profitable.
A cool company, I *LOVE* showing photos of electric vehicles to "petrol heads" who despise anything less than rusty old crap powered by a V8, I use the Telsa Roadster as an example, also my countryman's X1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w , what an amazing PROTOTYPE car that thing is!
From the first Wired article, and others, it seems like Tesla (the car company) has always had money problems, much like their namesake.
Slashdot Mirror
"...through a complex web of intermediates, I pay farmers so they let me live. I also pay "my" police and military to let me live by not letting other people to kill me."
Hmm, I'm not sure where you live in the world Urkki, but in my country, people are NOT put to death for being out of employment! ;-) I liked hearing of how you "pay off" government officials too! I think you'd be doing us all a favour for telling us know where you're talking about! It seems like the world is "black and white", of Nanny State vs Police State, I'll thank my lucky stars that I were born in a "socialist" nation, where my right to LIVE is recognised!
;-)
I dont see it as a matter of "giving up a right", if we stop killing others. Was it such a big hassle to "give up the right to have slaves" in America? It probably was GREAT, for the Whites, to be in control of another, to class them as "below us", a "thing" or "possession".
Quotes on Slavery comes in handy for these discussions, such as this quote http://quotesonslavery.org/they-know-nothing-of-the-bond-that-unites-the-master-and-servant/
The site also features many more Pro Slavery quotes, or mentions of how African slaves are being sold at an auction, "in good condition" etc, its shocking to our modern ethics, but was regarded as "the done thing" during its time.
I dont see myself as having "lost" any right by not killing others, be they human or nonhuman.
RE Ethical Killing, hmm, I think we could debate semantics here. I agree with self defence, if someone, be they human or nonhuman, were attacking me, I'd defend myself. Rabid Dogs are not common in my area, do they come with the territory of nations where "you have to pay to live"?
In such a highly hypothetical case, I'd protect myself, but would still not see a Dog, rabid or otherwise, as an "it". We are always someONE, never a someTHING.
I understand that to be an integral part in how we deal with others, if we see them as "subhuman", an "it", or as our equal, think of war propaganda, about "dehumanising the enemy". In such cases, we "justify killing them"
It was nice hearing from you again Urkki
Hi Urkki,
:-)
Why would we believe it right to treat others as our "resources"? Thats a terrible way to describe one another, "you're my resource" ! Sounds like No Agenda
I dont think there can be shades of "what is property and who is another being", do you? Someone is either someONE or someTHING.
Could we use an example from my second last blog post please? I commented here, as I've mentioned already, about the ad I saw calling Chickens "IT". How do you feel about the ad, in regards to the videos of my Chicken Friends also on the page? How would we define a time when its "right" for us to override any Right they have to NOT be property? http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/12/chicken-so-tasty-it-sells-itself.html Best wishes Urkki
Hey Kitsune Inari,
;-)
;-)
;-) Then again, in such locations, not many convenience stores anywhere! They make/bring/are sent their own supplies!
PETA class themselves as "Animal Rights", possibly because its "cooler"
They have whats called a "New Welfarist" approach, they are mostly Vegan (the staff), but promote NonVeganism, "Happy Meat" etc, because "Veganism is hard!". I strongly disagree with this, there is nothing difficult about being Vegan!
I live at the bottom of the world, not bloody Los Angeles or Portland, some city filled with "hipsters"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invercargill
Its easy to be Vegan here, its easy to be Vegan pretty much anywhere, granted, I guess it could be hard buying Soymilk if you lived in Antartica, not many local stores that carry it, I hear
There is nothing "wingnuts" about Animal Rights.
I invite you to visit http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ , or my own Show, http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/
Best wishes to you
hi!
;-)
:-) I would go so far to say that all Vegans I know would be healthier than "the median" New Zealander or American, they would tend to be thinner, more muscular, more active etc.
:-)
I'm glad you've heard of PETA, please dont assume they speak for ANYONE, such as Abolitionist Vegans ( http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ ) like myself! I dont think you have, you mentioned as such, just making it clear to others who may be reading this comment.
No Animal Welfare, OR Animal Rights group I know of are talking about "throwing animals out onto the streets", all that I know of have always spoke about adopting unwanted nonhumans.
I cannot speak on nutrition, I am not a health professional, although many of them also have crazy positions! Think of all the "fad diets" out there!
I find it highly unlikely that anyone could NOT be Vegan. I've had tests done for Iron levels, and were fine. I am 23 years old, 1.95 Metres tall, up until a few months ago, I cycled 66 kilometres a day, and have a job moving furniture. I'm health
That is certainly not a rule! Being Vegan does not instantly give you super powers, ha! http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/vegan-super-powers-video.html
I know of many "rescued" cats and dogs, as you mentioned. I'm glad you've been able to care for other animals
If you're interested in hearing more from consistent, and sane *ACTUAL* Animal Rights people, please try these websites,
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ http://veganacious.com/
And these podcasts http://nzveganpodcast.blogspot.com/ http://human-nonhuman.blogspot.com/
Best wishes to you
hey Johnny5000, I dont feel like I can comment on Animal Shelters, I've always hated visiting them, my family have volunteered there, I think they would be better qualified to talk about them than I would. I've looked after many "unwanted" animals before, including my Chicken Friends now,
;-)
http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/day-in-life-of-chicken-friend-video.html
And I think its best if more people can look after these other animals.
I hope you've seen the difference between an Abolitionist Vegan position, and PETA's, they do not speak "for the Animal advocates"! RE your signature, we are animals too ! Unless you are a Creationist?
RE living vs suffering, you really picked up the heart of the issue. Welfare vs Rights.
Animal Welfare is "we can do whatever the heck we like, we are God given masters of this world, they are ours, they are things to us, oh, but lets get it over with quickly, "humanely"".
Animal Rights is that Animals have a base right not to be "ours", to be our things, our property. I have no more right to kill the next Dog I see than I would to break into your house and steal your television. There is of course, quite a difference between "property theft" and killing someone! However, under Animal Welfare, "as long as you do it humanely..."
I remember months back a NZ news story, a Pacific Islander who came here and killed his family Dog, and cooked them. They were "hit on the head with a bat", and then their throat was cut. This caused a bloody outrage here, with people talking about killing the man responsible...seriously!
The problem is violence, it has nothing to do with the solution. The SPCA and others "couldnt charge him, because he killed IT humanely...", getting hit on the head, to "knock you out", and then having your throat cut is "humane"? And legal? If you're a Dog, it sure is!
Is it right? I would most certainly argue that it is not!
I've seen Chickens, and other animals, in cages before, many have simply given up. They are broken animals. I know of people who rescue animals from these situations, and they talk of how the animals are, taking their first true steps...of seeing the sun... of touching grass, of being able to dig...I could never honestly imagine what it must be like for them.
An Activist group has placed a wireless video camera at a "Chicken Farm", its streaming live to the internet. It breaks my heart to watch, as someone who looks after Chickens. I would feel awful if I left my little Friends in their coop for a single day, let alone their lives, to value them as "things". I've only ever watched the stream for a minute or so. Heres a blog post, with the link:
http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/live-video-stream-of-chickens-on-farm.html
If I were honestly in such conditions for all of my life, with absolutely no realistic chance of getting out, I think I'd rather be dead.
My hope is that more people will be Vegan, to directly help others, and that they can look after former "farm animals" like my Chicken Friends: http://www.youtube.com/jaywontdart
I'll answer your question seriously, although I found it shocking!
"earn their living"? Do you "earn your keep" by paying me for allowing you to live? Why would other animals? What gives us any more right to harm another, human or nonhuman, any more than I'd have the right to invade another country, kill all the humans (and nonhumans) there?
I use this quote as my email signature
""We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." ~Henry Beston"
I found it on Earthlings, which is a very graphic documentary about how we treat other animals. It contains slaughterhouse footage, farming, "fishing", killing whales, dolphins, vets, medical experiments etc. I never mention it, I use positive images FOR Veganism, rather than attacking nonVeganism, I'm not a fan of political attack ads. "That guys a sonnofabitch! Dont vote for him!..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthlings_(documentary)
Trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW3gunMSCu4
Full video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142#
Positive examples are much better. Once again, here is my YouTube account, with videos of the Chickens I care for :
http://www.youtube.com/jaywontdart
I dont think anyone seriously thinks "there'll be a magic puff of purple smoke enveloping the globe, that all armies will lower their guns, that all (animal) farmers will allow animals to live..."
There are some ~7 Billion people alive, we kill over 56 Billion land animals each year, from the UN FOA 2007 statistics (PDF here http://bit.ly/56billion ). It simply wouldnt be possible to expect (much) more than 56 Billion animals to suddenly get homes with "only" ~7 Billion people alive! I also do not see large scale "releases" of animals to live free.
Supply and Demand, as more Vegans promote Veganism, not "Happy Meat", Demand will decrease over time. How long will it take? Dont ask me! Realistically, certainly not in my lifetime? I like Tim Giers article, A Vegan World in 8 years
http://timgier.com/2010/07/28/a-vegan-world-in-8-years/
However long it will take, a decline in dead flesh, bodily secretions, skin etc bought, less will be "made", less animals forcibly impregnated, less animals born etc etc etc. If we are killing some 56 Billion now, that number would decrease to near zero. I'm sure there will always be people who kill other animals, just as there are people who kill other humans.
Urkki, I would say there is absolutely no such thing as an "ethical" way to kill others. We kill animals, in the case of "meat", keep them alive to take their eggs, control their menstrual cycle, artificially impregnate them, kill the now unwanted child (through "inductions", I covered the topic here, http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/episode-37-hey-hey-hey-nah-nah-nah.html , links to news videos are at the bottom in Sources), for milk.
And for what? Pleasure, and profit, both ours.
I noticed the use of "it" to describe animals, my last blog post was about a McDonalds Facebook ad I saw, calling Chickens "It"
As a Vegan, I'm always interested when these issues come up on my usual websites. I, like many of the other Animal Rights people here visit Slashdot, Ars, Engadget, Gizmodo etc daily, we dont cause any fuss, but when these "stories" arise, "ohhhhh, they're hypocrites", or "I'm gonna have me a big steak, yummy mc yum yums!!!111!!!" are the usual posts.
I'm also quite against PETA, they have a New Welfarist approach, I despise how they have Women pose and RE promoting Veganism, "screw the principle" http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ingrid-newkirk-on-principled-veganism-screw-the-principle/
"PETA can't rightfully preach about animal rights while euthanizing tens of thousands of unwanted pets every year. Hypocrisy at its finest.".
They can "preach" Animal Rights while also practising euthanasia you realise? Just as I love being alive, but were I to have Cancer such as others in my family, I could well imagine rather being dead, than to die slowly over the months. Now, I much prefer the idea of No Kill shelters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-kill_shelter , I dont know how practical they are in real life. I've had family members who've volunteered with the SPCA etc, I myself have no hands on experience of this kind.
I agree with practically NOTHING coming from PETA, I think it must obviously be wrong that they "put to sleep" so many animals each year.
However, please dont write off Animal Rights because of PETA's actions.
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ and these shows http://bit.ly/veganpodcastinfo were useful for me.
I also promote Veganism through videos of my Chicken Friends (such as "A Day in the Life..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj8gL8lj-Yg ), and through my show http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/
Thank you for your post, I meant no disrespect.
:)
Both sides of my family come from NZ mining roots. I can understand mining towns, its mining towns that are literally 10 hours from anywhere else that I find odd!
(note: I don't have a smart phone because I think they are stupid.)
Classic!
:-)
I hope you'll decide to get a Smartphone or say, iPod Touch, just to see what all the fuss is about
I do have a question for you, why do it? Why have towns in the middle of nowhere, over such a massive CONTINENT? I genuinely mean this, it sounds a bit like the "super size" offer, "well....because its on offer...because its there....."
It sounds a bloody nuisance for all concerned! And what does anyone gain, mineral resources? I can understand a few such towns, but it really seemed, from my SINGLE trip to Australia a few years ago, that there are developed cities on the coastline of the country, and in the middle is one impossibly large burning desert. Perhaps the answer is for all over populated, freezing cold countries to "move to Australia", the continent, and fill that bad boy up?
Is there any practical way of covering such massive distances with highways, fibre etc?
Just being a (literally) dense New Zealander, who walked two city blocks to get to primary school, walked/cycled 4KM to get to High School, and to this day lives without a car.
Think about it, I'm 23, I have a CRT television set that I may NEVER turn on out of necessity again, I use my 27 inch iMac, my iPod, my iPhone and my iPad for iEverything. I own well over 100 DVD's, all are ripped to my computers hard drive, the thought of touching a disc is laughable to me now :) Since I were about ....13 or so, I'd been able to download music online through P2P etc...over dialup, a REALLY SHITTY quality MP3 could have taken 10+ minutes to arrive...but I did it. I actually enjoy buying music online now, especially when its fast, and Just Works for a fair price.
....", it was a BIG deal for them, they saw it on tv, they didnt give a shit that they sat opposite it, that I offered to explain why THEY should have one themselves....they saw it on TV, and they were INTERESTED.
One of my favourite new artists is Drake. I have all his "mixtapes" (MP3's with Metatags identifying them as being "from the same album", what were you thinking?) and really appreciate the fairly recent trend of major artists giving away free singles online to build hype. Kanye West and "GOOD Fridays", Swizz Beats and "Monster Mondays" etc etc etc.
I saw Drake on some American television late night show...at the end, the idiot host held up a box made of plastic, it was ridiculous looking! Flimsy, it could break, the door could snap, the tines that hold the CD inside easily come off, making it useless for holding the disc....just terrible. Overall, it looked CHEAP, a mass produced bit of clear plastic, made in lots of a million, with couple bits of paper stapled together chucked into "the cover slot", yeah, you take the booklet out, you lose "the cover" for the case....
What a joke! What a low quality, USELESS thing! Who the hell would ever want that?
Oh yeah. Many older people still buy "home media". I'd been so self absorbed to not consider that *not everyone* buys music through iTunes. I find it hard to imagine people in their 20's not a) downloading Torrents for free b) buying the album for 20 bucks on iTunes, but obviously SOMEONE is buying modern albums on CD.
I think of my work friends, who are 50+. I got my iPad, and my iPhone before they were sold in my country, I imported them, in the case of my Original iPhone, I jailbroke it, using someone elses software, myself. My work friends were impressed...kinda....that I'd spend so much on a bit of metal and glass (which they probably find ugly, as they are Baby Boomers and can only appreciate shitty, slow old V8's with giant fins etc...), it is meaningless for them. I sit with them every day, for months, playing games on my iPad, using my iPhone, nothing, they dont care.
THEN, these devices are on television, for no bloody reason, for example, the Russian Prime Minister showed our countries leader the iPad, and BOTH of them eagerly told me "your tablet was on the news last night! The leader of
How many Baby Boomers are going through a END of life crisis? Who want to "feel young" again? Many may not have "been down" with this "iPod thing", they have no idea what Podcasts are, but now they will see "The Beatles, now on iTunes! Apple, WOW!", and they will WANT TO BUY the albums once more. They'll no doubt feel GREAT doing it too, especially if they go out and buy a new iPod Touch, they'll really feel like they are "in the loop", and with their favourite songs again too.
Yes, The Beatles on iTunes is not really a big deal for me personally, but I can *understand* that its a major marker in the history of music, of digital downloads being mainstream, of millions of older people, who all have credit cards and cash, willing to pay money for....what may as well be nothing, nothing tangible, but they HAVE their favourite songs again!
As it seems my generation are so often NOT buying music, and finding "alternative" stuff given away for free, away from "main labels" etc, as the recording industry feels forced to focus on over produced pop, "safe bets", then its a GREAT thing to introduce your product to MILLIONS of people who WILL pay!
Good call :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twisted_World_of_Marge_Simpson
I'm glad you realise I wasnt so much replying to what you had said, but to the general "oh, if they wanted to market it, THEN it would have been a whopping success..." excuses.
;) I highly doubt 95% of us are using iPods, yet the iPod gets all the credit!
pins of reality?
In terms of how excited consumers are about a product, based on the companies previous offerings, hello, are not "95%" of us running Windows?
If it really is a matter of marketing, if Apples products are lacking in every possible way, except for their image, then why have other companies not burst that image-bubble, with their pins of reality?
It really must be something wrong with Microsoft, rather than anything Apple in particular is doing so well. pins of reality?
I wouldnt think Apple created the hype around the Original iPhone, it deserved all, and more, of what it got. I remember both the iPod and iPhone blowing my mind...when I first held my cousins iPod...it was everything stopped, it was the first REAL "mp3 player", it felt like a flying car. The iPhone was all this, and more, I was driven almost insane by the constant talk online of multi touch this, of smartphone that. I finally managed to order an Original iPhone from America, and jailbreak it myself, using a software tool. pins of reality?
I have no doubts that honest, smart, funny and gifted people work for Microsoft, surely then, it must be some kind of management issue? That the company cannot move in one direction? From what we've seen, Win Phone 7 has none of the "sexy" of the iPhone, none of its "ease of use", its "beauty", it does not offer anything hardware (or software) equivalent to Android, nor as many models. It has *nothing* I could possibly want, and a million things I feel I would *need*. For me personally, the Win Phone 7 devices seem flawed on every level...."oh, but they have Xbox Live..."
This post is not so much to you in general, but cmon, lets all stop giving other, non-Apple companies a break for "oh, but they just didnt bother marketing their product...", its 2010, marketing employees of a VERY LARGE company should damn well know how to MARKET their own damn products by now!
"ohhhh....Apple only make people buy their products because they market everywhere....ads....posters...events.....", FINE, so why dont the other manufacturers do the same, and "blow Apple out of the water" once and for all? Statistics generally show that other companies, Microsoft included, spend MORE on advertising annually....and where the hell does it go? Because there is more to these smartphones than just marketing, although it is VERY necessary! Its not a matter of them not having enough money to market either, they generally seem to blow it on useless crap, or perhaps by having "plan B" devices waiting to come out in six months time, think of the Kin and Windows Phone 7... if anything, the Kin should have been a model of Win Phone 7, the cheapest model with fairly basic features, designed for parents to give their teenagers.
"oh, but they didnt market it enough" is *not* an excuse, they SHOULD have! I've grown up despising Microsoft, from an early age, since the mid 2000's however, they've been TRAGICALLY clumsy, think WinMobile, Zune, Kin..... they have NOTHING capable of execution, perhaps Xbox, ok, who is to blame? Balllmer?!?!?
Again though, there is something to be said when pretty much the entire world has GOOD broadband and cellphone reception...except in the USA...
This shouldn't be brushed away, "oh well, you cant win them all HA!", something should be done, vote with your wallet! The USA must close the 3G access gap!
Technologically advanced, maybe, depending on how you look at it, as there is tremendous disparity between the cities and the countryside in that regard.
A remote mountain in Nepal has better 3G service than San Francisco, a large progressive city in "the world's only superpower"...
Asia in general is on the rise, better catch up!
I agree with "liberal" and "conservative" being terrible labels, however, the rest of the world gets on just fine with "left" and "right" wing, why can't America?
I also despise the term "freedom" in this example, as if somehow receiving healthcare, public education, libraries.... is some TERRIBLE affliction, imposed by an insane tyrant!
Its not a matter of being "free of", its a matter of "not getting shit".
“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill
Note, I'm "Right Wing" by international standards, the USA's main two parties are Right, and Ultra Right, why can you not simply have Centre Left and Centre Right like the rest of the world? And also colour them correctly, Red is for "left wing", Blue for "right wing"! You know, like, "The Reds are invading..."?
Things America needs to change reason #42 the Metric System....
I've seen a photo of an Australian Apple store where it seems a CAR hit the glass? Perhaps a large object hurled at the glass? In a very thick pane, a very large crack, it looked like it happened on a street corner.
;)
Very beautiful design, how come other companies refuse to be interesting and desirable? Well, theres that Nokia store...or the Microsoft outfits....I hear they're *REALLY* popular, with lines out the door
We are traditionally against GM, although tests remain, just as we are proud of being the first country to grant women voting rights, suffrage, and being "Nuclear Free", although we do have Radiation Therepy and smoke detectors with Americium
;)
http://bit.ly/veganbingo
:) http://bit.ly/chickensax
In regards to omnivorism, try playing another round of "Defensive Omnivore Bingo"
We can live just fine with animal byproducts or without, without "special care", although compare people of each lifestyle and come to your own conclusions, the worlds becoming obese because of Veganism, right? I live in New Zealand, now the worlds third most obese nation, its a disgrace.
I use positive examples when talking about what we do to animals with people, I'm not here to argue for the 56 Billion land animals killed annually (UN FOA 2007 PDF http://bit.ly/56billion ), I mention the Chickens I look after, they get into mischief
I've many more videos, taken on my iPhone 4 on my YouTube account.
Theres something very sad that so many treat animals as just "property", as things, an "it", rather than a "he" or "she".
Please visit http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/about/ for more on Veganism.
I get that response often on /. :), its a little like when you're washing your car and someone driving past yells "ya can do mine next!!!!!111!!!" :)
:)
http://bit.ly/veganbingo
We might need to add it to "Defensive Omnivore Bingo", the Nerd edition
Cmon....New Zealand goes just fine without agricultural subsidies, our farmers were proud of "doing it on their own merit",
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml
As a Vegan, I wish we *WEREN'T* so invested in Animal Agriculture, which remains very profitable without subsidy.
This story is of a spoilt USA crying after being beaten at its own crooked game. My parents have this image of China as rural agriculture, of living off five grains of rice a day. I'm 22, and my generation probably see things differently :
http://macenstein.com/default/2010/07/exclusive-pics-of-the-shanghai-china-apple-store/
Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
I have great hope in Telsa, again, despite the fact that perhaps many will grow up believing "Tesla" makes cars that run on laptop batteries instead of essentially inventing radio, electricity..., but if you read more on their history, it seems to be quite difficult for Tesla to be profitable.
I quite liked this Wired article,
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/09/ff_tesla/
In the search for that article, this one also jumped off the page, "Elon Musk: I ran out of money"
A cool company, I *LOVE* showing photos of electric vehicles to "petrol heads" who despise anything less than rusty old crap powered by a V8, I use the Telsa Roadster as an example, also my countryman's X1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w , what an amazing PROTOTYPE car that thing is!
From the first Wired article, and others, it seems like Tesla (the car company) has always had money problems, much like their namesake.
Humans were not meant to be packed like sardines into crowded cities with no where to escape to
Neither were the sardines meant to be killed and packed in cans!
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/