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Tofu Activists Spoof Meat-Based Indie Game

Faulkner39 writes "In response to the recently released independently developed platformer Super Meat Boy, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has released a Flash-based spoof game titled Super Tofu Boy. The spoof attempts to mirror the original by featuring a protagonist made of tofu and an antagonist made of meat in a statement promoting animal rights. Ironically, however, the original game is about a human boy who is vulnerable because he lacks skin (Meat Boy), raising the question: 'is the spoof in reality really about cannibalism?'" The Super Meat Boy team posted a response on their Twitter feed.

420 comments

  1. Streisand effect by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Informative

    I had never heard of Super Meat Boy.

    1. Re:Streisand effect by mcvos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's wht the PETA spoof is so important for them. On their site they explain how they've been trolling the PETA forums, hoping for this to happen. Apparently with success. It's a weird kind of PR, but it works, because now you've heard of Super Meat Boy. Thanks to trolling, PETA and Slashdot.

    2. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I had never heard of Super Meat Boy.

      No loss really. It's just another platformer. Never understood why the "indie" crowd starts drooling over platformers so much. They are so unimaginative and boring. There are literally thousands of them out there; all but reskinned versions of the same game.

    3. Re:Streisand effect by prowler1 · · Score: 1

      Neither had I but after seeing this story I got intrigued enough to visit their web site and have to admit, the game plot definitely appeals to the more twisted side of my sense of humor. Without PETA getting upset and doing something about this, I would not be thinking of looking further into the game or even had heard of it.

    4. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just another platformer with a metacritic score of 90?
      http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/super-meat-boy/details

      have you played it or just looked at a screenshot and made up your mind?

    5. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh? And what game do you play that is so startlingly original and innovative? Halo?

    6. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meat Boy is not a Mario clone, unlike the majority of platformers. It's all about wall jumping.

    7. Re:Streisand effect by .tekrox · · Score: 1

      It still reeks of an N+ clone; with controls that are slightly worse.

      I still liked it overall; but it has nothing on its apparent inspirator.

    8. Re:Streisand effect by Narishma · · Score: 1

      So it's an N clone instead?

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    9. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even N+ isn't all that innovative. There are dozens - if not hundreds - of these kinds of platformers (hard, skill-based, etc.) around (indiegames.com, Tigsource, dozens of Flash-games sites, etc.). Most of them are just small hobby project and occasionally somebody drops a load of money in one of them and markets them.

      Add to that the personality-cult around certain names and you get the kind of popularity Super Meat Boy gets. Too bad really, because I'd rather see more interesting indie games succeed, so those developers create more games; instead of the bazillionth platformer.

    10. Re:Streisand effect by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No, but this game isn't either.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    11. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are literally thousands of them out there; all but reskinned versions of the same game.

      Hey, Meat Boy doesn't have skin, you insensitive clod!

    12. Re:Streisand effect by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      beat me to the punch. the first thing i thought when i read 'its all about wall jumping' was "oh, so its N, only with a skinless boy instead of an awesome ninja."

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    13. Re:Streisand effect by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a weird kind of PR, but it works, because now you've heard of Super Meat Boy. Thanks to trolling, PETA and Slashdot.

      I am feeling I am becoming too old for this century...
      And I am not even 30...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    14. Re:Streisand effect by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      That is the way I feel about shooters. It really seems every shooter is just a clone of every other shooter on the planet. I find greater variety in the platformer genre. But to each their own.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    15. Re:Streisand effect by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Most platformers and most FPS game suck. But there's enough of a volume that you end up with plenty of good ones to play. Sort of like how most puzzle games suck, and well most games in general suck, but there's a large enough volume that you can always find at least a few games in the genre worth playing.

    16. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compared to...? A game you imagine that you could imagine?

    17. Re:Streisand effect by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I just don't find a jumping piece of meat that unique. It's basically just a rehashed platformer with a few new graphics.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    18. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm 22 and I'm getting this feeling.

    19. Re:Streisand effect by ZeRu · · Score: 1

      It's on the 3rd spot of Steam's top sellers list right now. Nice PR apparently.

      --
      If you post as an AC, don't expect me to spend a mod point on you.
    20. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're pretty popular over at tigsource (the birthplace of minecraft, aquaria, and quite a few other popular games)

      their 90's style commercial is GOLD if you haven't seen it (sorry, can't get to their site or youtube from here so can't link it)

    21. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Methinks the guy might've been joking about that part.

    22. Re:Streisand effect by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2

      I tried to be funny and I am insightful...
      Now if this present observation gets labeled funny it will be depressing...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  2. I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about me by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 5, Funny

    They offer downloads for PC and Mac. What, no Linux version? You mean I have to play the version on the website to play in Linux?

    If they won't give me Linux Tofu Boy, then I have absolutely no incentive to cease my consumption of meat. Clearly, they don't care about me, so I will continue to not care about them.

    I should go have a double down or something later....

    --
    Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
  3. PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know, maybe they could have spent some of that development money on outreach for their shelters, so that they wouldn't have to kill 86% of the animals they shelter.

    But no, I guess making video games, stockpiling red paint, and placing ads of naked hippies should really come first.

    --
    I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    1. Re:PETA by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      If a domesticated animal has been abandoned and unwanted, the most humane thing to do is end its suffering as quickly and painlessly as possible. Keeping it caged in hopes that someone will come and adopt it may feel nice, but it isn't in the animal's best interest.

    2. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next up: orphans!

    3. Re:PETA by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem is that PETA don't think *any* animals should be domesticated, so mostly they don't even bother to try to rehome animals.

      Quite often they don't bother to find out if they're abandoned or unwanted - a couple of years ago two PETA activists were arrested for basically trapping cats and dogs (and indeed, going into people's gardens to catch them) and killing them. They claimed that the animals were "abandoned" or "strays", but couldn't offer any convincing reason for thinking they were. They weren't interested in animal welfare, they just liked stealing then torturing and killing people's pets.

    4. Re:PETA by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would not mind agreeing with you if it weren't for the fact that this is directly against PETA's stated goals. They want to eliminate ownership of animals, and eliminate the euthanasia of animals. Never mind that their central office euthanizes thousands of animals a year.

      It's not so much that I am against their ideals. I just can't stand f**ing hypocrites.

    5. Re:PETA by vidnet · · Score: 1

      You know, maybe they could have spent some of that development money on outreach for their shelters, so that they wouldn't have to kill 86% of the animals they shelter.

      Instead they spent in on a campaign for livestock, 100% of which are killed. PETA don't consider livestock inferior to pets, or any less deserving of ethical treatment.

    6. Re:PETA by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If a domesticated animal has been abandoned and unwanted, the most humane thing to do is end its suffering as quickly and painlessly as possible. Keeping it caged in hopes that someone will come and adopt it may feel nice, but it isn't in the animal's best interest.

      It's still an interesting question who gets to determine when death is in your best interest.

    7. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, you know, because being dead is totally in his interest! BS and Peta knows it.

    8. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the animals could talk, do you think they'd agree with you?

    9. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      And they have pretty much zero effect there. Why? Because they alienate people with combativeness. They get attention because people love to hate them. And they seem completely oblivious to that fact.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    10. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Peta should stick to their valid core business of fighting ill treatment of animals.

      Vegetarians are a whole different and sad subspecies of humankind, they try to deny we've been eating meat from animals since many millions of years.

      As a matter of fact we've become the creatures we are because we ate animals, for example there is strong evidence of a correlation in humanoids starting to eat seafood and a jump in intelligence that led to the making and use of tools.

      That's a bit of faulty logic right there isn't it? Just because something was done in the past, do we have to keep doing it? Many countries practiced slavery or imperialism, which led to their becoming great powers, therefore shouldn't we continue with slavery or imperialism? Now, if you can show that we would _lose_ intelligence if we stopped eating meat, then it would be a bit more convincing. BTW, I am a Person who loves Eating Tasty Animals.

    11. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much the party line that you get from them.

      On the other hand, plenty of other organizations do have much, much higher adoption rates. To their credit.

      I wonder if it's not just that PETA is quick with the needle, but that they'd still suffer from low adoption rates in their shelters, primarily because most people don't want to deal with PETA if they don't have to.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    12. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But a correlation is just a correlation...

      Maybe it's just really hard to get and eat seafood without the use of tools?

    13. Re:PETA by jamesh · · Score: 2

      If a domesticated animal has been abandoned and unwanted, the most humane thing to do is end its suffering as quickly and painlessly as possible.

      And having done that, it seems like of a waste not to eat its meat, make clothes out of it's skin, and glue out of its tendons.

    14. Re:PETA by jamesh · · Score: 2

      It's not so much that I am against their ideals. I just can't stand f**ing hypocrites.

      Bah. Hypocrisy is everywhere. What bugs me is that they somehow think that they know what is ethical in the first place. Who are they to decide that it is wrong for an animal to suffer? Seeing a suffering animal invokes feelings of sadness, horror, and disgust in most people (or in me at least) and they want to see it stop, but that's just how our brains are programed and it doesn't make it wrong. There have been studies that show that people who enjoy inflicting cruelty on an animal are more likely to grow up to be , but that doesn't mean that letting animals suffer or causing animals to suffer is wrong either.

      Unless there is some sort of god above, I don't think there is any innate law of the universe that determines what is wrong and what is right, it's up to us to decide. And just because PETA are noisy and violent doesn't make their point of view valid.

      </rant>

    15. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      Moral relativism is a black hole. Besides which, you can't win an argument with it, you can only refuse to accept an argument on the grounds that it's as invalid as any other argument.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    16. Re:Peta by Per+Wigren · · Score: 0

      I'm a vegetarian (for 10+ years) simply because I find the whole concept of chewing on dead animals quite bizarre and distasteful and I think the whole large scale meat industry is sick. Vegetarianism, and even veganism, works just fine for modern humans. Yes, eating meat was critical for our survival and evolvement in the past but it's not in the 21st century.

      I do agree with you that PETA should stick to their core business of figting ill treatment of animals, though. I also don't agree with their extremist "animals should not be pets" view. I love my pure breed Bengal cats and they [seem to] love me back. I don't like PETA in general.

      What I like the least are remarks like "vegetarians are a whole different and sad subspecies of humankind" though. Why the hell do you care that some people don't want to eat meat?

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    17. Re:PETA by Gaygirlie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that PETA don't think *any* animals should be domesticated, so mostly they don't even bother to try to rehome animals.

      That's one thing I've never understood. What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food? I myself have two cats and I would say they are MUCH better off here with me than out there in the Finnish winter. Hell, you don't need to be an expert or anything to see that they actually like their life here. Even if I open the door and let them out they come back after 3 minutes, they just simply don't want to go there.

      So, I just simply do not understand PETA and their ideals.

    18. Re:PETA by couchslug · · Score: 0

      Trying to find homes for all the animals would literally be stupid because it would only aggravate the surplus critter problem. Even some PETAfiles get that.

      If the goal is actually REDUCTION OF ANIMAL SUFFERING, it isn't "cruel" (anyone unsure of the meaning, get a fucking dictionary) to the animals to painlessly kill them.

      Pet People can't abide the thought of the DEATH of animals and want to cling morbidly to as many as possible. Rather like the way we keep old folks alive and suffering to the very last, this bitter denial of death isn't about the "victim" at all. It's about making the person who is preserving the "victim" feel better.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    19. Re:PETA by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't you see man! It's like slavery! thinking you can "own" an animal.
      We can't "own" our animal equals!
      keeping a pet is so like exactly the same as slavery!

      or something absurd like that.

      either way everyone knows: dogs have owners, cats have staff.

    20. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the hell do you care that some people don't want to eat meat?

      I didn't until I was told that I shouldn't eat meat.

    21. Re:PETA by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      yes but at the same time there's part of a point there.
      namely:

      *who the hell are you to decide if my life isn't worth living*
      Or in the case of animals you can't communicate with- killing them can be more about what you want and what you feel than about what the animals wants or feel.
      It makes you feel better to no longer see it suffering, the animal on the other hand may be quite determined to keep living.

    22. Re:PETA by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason PETA are disconnected from reality is that they are projecting their own self-loathing onto the arena of animal rights issues, rather than addressing animal rights with logic and rationality. The driving thought in a militant PETA member's head is that humans are disgusting worthless bullies and animals are perfect and angelic. Because humans are in a position of power over animals, they are evil, and revenge must be sought at every opportunity. They're projecting their own self loathing, and their own feelings of powerlessness onto an unrelated issue. When the time comes for them face a logic rebuttal to their behaviour, cognitive dissonance kicks to protect them from facing the fact that they have become the very bullies they despise.

      --
      (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
    23. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      So true. Can we start doing this with politicians we don't reelect, please?

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    24. Re:Peta by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      I think the statement stands if you amend it to "militant vegetarians" or even "evangelizing vegetarians" but then again evangelizing anything tends to be rather annoying.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    25. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 4, Funny

      I just can't stand f**ing hypocrites.

      Dunno why not, they're just as good in the sack as everyone else.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    26. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      Bah. Hypocrisy is everywhere. ... Who are they to decide that it is wrong for an animal to suffer? ... Unless there is some sort of god above, I don't think there is any innate law of the universe that determines what is wrong and what is right, it's up to us to decide.

      Outstanding example.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    27. Re:PETA by LingNoi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the goal is actually REDUCTION OF ANIMAL SUFFERING, it isn't "cruel" (anyone unsure of the meaning, get a fucking dictionary) to the animals to painlessly kill them.

      Logic failure.. So what if we rounded up all the homeless people; it wouldn't be cruel to painlessly kill them too? I'm sure lots of homeless people wouldn't mind you killing them because you believe they are suffering just as I'm sure the cats and dogs that are homeless wouldn't mind too.

      Before you start a debate about animal != human that's exactly what PETA is campaigning for. Rights for animals, so they're pretty much hypocrites.

      I can see from your post however that you believe people or animals should be killed regardless of if they want to. I wonder how you will feel later on when you yourself are getting old and your own death squad is coming for you.

    28. Re:PETA by Gaygirlie · · Score: 2

      Don't you see man! It's like slavery! thinking you can "own" an animal.
      We can't "own" our animal equals!
      keeping a pet is so like exactly the same as slavery!

      That's what they seem to claim, indeed. However, in slavery the slaver puts the slaves to work for him or her to produce something of value, but pets do not need to work, they do not produce anything, they just exist. Even when some people take their dogs out to hunting or something the pet actually most often enjoys it, it's not forced to it, it's good for it, and again is not slavery in the least bit.

      Of course there are some really horrible owners, but I atleast am not aware of any single one. A regular person usually takes good care of their pet or pets and provide for them in all the ways they might need. That is VERY different from what real slavery is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

    29. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Vegetarianism, and even veganism, works just fine for some modern humans. ...

      FTFY. Many people who try to go vegan and even some who try to go veggy actually get sick. Some people just can't follow a restricted diet and no, it's not because they're doing it wrong, it just doesn't agree with their bodies.

      Personally I have no problem with people choosing their diets. I can't stand it when someone tries to tell me I'm immoral for choosing mine. Veggies and vegans lose all moral ground when they tell someone they're bad for choosing meat.

    30. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Just because there isn't an absolute moral code, doesn't mean we can't act to defend ours.

      By your POV, abolitionist should not have fought against slavery at a time when it was socially accepted, nor should I help you if you're getting robbed. After all, who's to say if the thieves are wrong?

      I am a moral relativist, in the way that I don't believe there is an absolute moral code. But that doesn't mean I believe we shouldn't fight for what we think is right.

      And no, I don't agree with PETA on what is right and wrong.

    31. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Moral relativism is fine so long as you remember two things:

      • Everyone is under no obligation to respect any beliefs not their own.
      • You are part of the group Everyone, not an outside observer.

      Example: Westboro Baptist Church has every right in the world to believe their wacky shit. I have every right in the world to believe the world would be a better place if they were to all be raped, tortured, and then fed into a wood chipper. Neither of us has to give a happy damn about seeing things from the other's point of view.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    32. Re:PETA by Saint+Gerbil · · Score: 1

      I got sent this on twitter today:
      How many Peta members does it take to change a lightbulb?.... None, Peta can't change anything.

      http://twitter.com/#!/SuperMeatBoy

      Apparently people are saying that Super Tofu boy cost more to make than super meat boy.

    33. Re:PETA by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      "placing ads of naked hippies should really come first."

      And for that reason alone I completely support PETA. (NSFW probably NSFW)

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    34. Re:Peta by icebraining · · Score: 1

      While I'm not a vegetarian, I find your argument invalid. There are plenty of examples of things we've done since many millions of years which are not socially acceptable anymore, at least in our society.

      Appeal to tradition, also known as proof from tradition, appeal to common practice, argumentum ad antiquitatem, false induction, or the "is/ought" fallacy, is a common logical fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it correlates with some past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way."

      An appeal to tradition essentially makes two assumptions:

              * The old way of thinking was proven correct when introduced. In actuality this may be false -- the tradition might be entirely based on incorrect grounds.
              * The past justifications for the tradition are still valid at present. In cases where circumstances have changed, this assumption may be false.

    35. Re:PETA by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2

      I hate to think what horses have. If they're so badly treated then think about this - who gets up at 6am to go out in the snow and bring who their breakfast?

      And yes, you don't "own" a cat, they just come and live with you.

    36. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If humans were in complete isolation from anything, killing them quickly if it were the only way to relieve suffering wouldn't be unethical. They'd not care afterwards, what with being dead. It's the other humans that care and start to get upset, partly from the loss of somebody they knew, partly from fear that it might happen to them.
       
      Animals don't communicate the same way we do, don't have the same ability to determine whether a missing individual has been killed, and so the ethical situation is different.
       
      It has nothing to do with the worth of an individual, nor how much you judge their ability to feel suffering, it's their social awareness that counts.

    37. Re:Peta by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      it's not because they're doing it wrong

      Yes, it is. If you don't want to do it the classic way and follow a strict diet to make sure you get eat a correct balance of protein/carb/fat and vitamins, minerals, and so on, there are always artificial substitutions for those.

      Not that I'd recommend it, but in the 21st century everybody CAN be a vegan if they have the motivation. With a soy protein drink and some multi vitamin pills every day you can live reasonably healthy from nothing but french fries and ketchup.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    38. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It makes you feel better to no longer see it suffering, the animal on the other hand may be quite determined to keep living.

      They have to restrain a healthy animal to put it down for a reason. I think few of us have seen an animal that realizes it's time to die and doesn't resist any more because of our "civilized" (read: city-dwelling) experience. The animals get whisked away to the hospital to be put down.

      A man should shoot his own dog. And while we're talking about eating meat, I think that anyone who wants to eat meat should have to participate in the slaughtering, dressing, cooking, and eating of an animal in sequence, or take a full tour of a feedlot and slaughterhouse, in order to get a license to be permitted to eat meat. Of course, this is in my perfect world where you could implement such a thing without cost. Seriously though, I think we'd have a lot less meat eaters with such a system implemented, and that WOULD reduce environmental damage under other current systems.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    39. Re:PETA by attributed+insanity · · Score: 1

      I think we'd have a lot less meat eaters with such a system implemented

      I think you're over-estimating people's squeamishness. Speaking as someone who was taught how to skin, gut and otherwise prepare a rabbit for eating recently it's astonishing how quickly it goes from "clearly a rabbit" to "clearly meat".

    40. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think you're over-estimating people's squeamishness.

      I'm quite sure that I'm not. I've killed and eaten stuff, the last thing was a deer my lady ran into the fence and it killed its neck, I went out and slit its throat and it ended up in our oven and freezer. The first thing was a goose at Roaring Camp and Big Trees railroad, we lured it with popcorn and stuffed it in a burlap sack, took it off into the hills (away from the others) and chopped its head off with a hatchet. That doesn't mean that I think everyone wants to do the same. But there's really no way to know other than to put the plan in to practice.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    41. Re:PETA by Urkki · · Score: 1

      If a domesticated animal has been abandoned and unwanted, the most humane thing to do is end its suffering as quickly and painlessly as possible. Keeping it caged in hopes that someone will come and adopt it may feel nice, but it isn't in the animal's best interest.

      It's still an interesting question who gets to determine when death is in your best interest.

      Yeah, philosophically interesting question sure, but practically easy to answer: the one with the biggest gun gets to decide. Wether it's biggest antlers on a moose, or most comprehensive ICBM 2nd strike capability, it's the same story all over "animal kingdom".

    42. Re:PETA by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I think they have it backwards then. They could start by showing proper stewardship of their own animals. PETA putting down 90% of the animals they take in is rank hypocrisy especially when that's triple the rate of a non-PETA shelter. "Do as I say and not as I do" is just not the way to run an advocacy program. If they trail the industry in pet treatment, why should anyone listen to them on the treatment of any other kind of animal?

    43. Re:PETA by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      yes but at the same time there's part of a point there. namely: *who the hell are you to decide if my life isn't worth living*

      With moral relativism, who are you to say I'm not to decide if your life isn't worth living? What difference does it make?

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    44. Re:PETA by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      I am a moral relativist, in the way that I don't believe there is an absolute moral code. But that doesn't mean I believe we shouldn't fight for what we think is right.

      That's where you run into problems. Some people do think murder is right, some people do think rape is alright, some people do think slavery is right; according to your previous statement, you believe that they should fight for that, even if you personally find it repugnant.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    45. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food?

      I'm all for animal rights, but PETA is just insane. I don't see anything wrong with letting an animal live in your house and taking care of it.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    46. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Unless there is some sort of god above, I don't think there is any innate law of the universe that determines what is wrong and what is right

      Actually, even if there was a god, his views on what is 'right' or 'wrong' would only be his opinion, not fact.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    47. Re:PETA by AcidLacedPenguiN · · Score: 1

      Then why don't they offer the subjects of their animal jails to the livestock industry thusly (pardon the irony here) killing two birds with one stone? They would reduce the number of animals they kill while simultaneously reducing the number of livestock *the opponent* kills? Also, since when is it more humane to incarcerate a living being for years before inevitably killing them than it is to simply kill them without the long drawn out torture?

      --
      disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
    48. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      And while we're talking about eating meat, I think that anyone who wants to eat meat should have to participate in the slaughtering, dressing, cooking, and eating of an animal in sequence, or take a full tour of a feedlot and slaughterhouse, in order to get a license to be permitted to eat meat.

      I think that we should just use our supposedly intelligent minds (at this point, I'm doubting that though) to perfect in vitro meat so that no animals will have to suffer that way any longer to get meat.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    49. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I was actually thinking the same thing about humans. Instead of wasting land space and burying them, why not put their bodies to better use?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    50. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      and so the ethical situation is different.

      Just because they don't know it's happening doesn't mean it isn't wrong (or right). I'm in favor of thinning out much of the human population as well.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    51. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think that we should just use our supposedly intelligent minds (at this point, I'm doubting that though) to perfect in vitro meat so that no animals will have to suffer that way any longer to get meat.

      Who says they have to suffer? Feedlots are unnecessary, they're simply cost-effective.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    52. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was so going to post the same damn thing. Because making a game is more important that using the money for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.. Fucking morons.. I hope they all get eaten by man-bear-sharks..

    53. Re:PETA by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Unless there is some sort of god above, I don't think there is any innate law of the universe that determines what is wrong and what is right

      Actually, even if there was a god, his views on what is 'right' or 'wrong' would only be his opinion, not fact.

      I don't believe there is a god, but I think most religions operate on the basis of "His universe, His rules", and so if god existed according to that definition then his views on what is 'right' or 'wrong' are indeed fact. It would also mean that I'm going to hell, basically for the simple failing of not believing in him.

    54. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. Which doesn't mean we should let them murder/rape/enslave. That's why we as a society have defined laws and enforce them. Which are not absolute, and do change with time. If they can convince most people that murder/rape/slavery is alright, then society's moral code will change to accept that, and anti-murder/rape/slavery people (in which I include myself) will become the "freedom fighters".

      I don't find any logic inconsistencies in my position.

    55. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I think that we should just use our supposedly intelligent minds (at this point, I'm doubting that though) to perfect in vitro meat [wikipedia.org] so that no animals will have to suffer that way any longer to get meat.

      Please give me a reason for this. Why should I care? (BTW, I have reasons from my own belief system as to why I should care about animal suffering, however, most slashdotters who express your type of opinion reject my belief system and fail to replace it with one that gives any logically consistent reason as to why I should care about the suffering of others).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    56. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      So you think most people wouldn't do it, based on the last 50 years or so of eating processed meat, when we (as a species) have done it for millions of years? Do you believe we changed that much is such short time?
      I don't, especially since there's still a large portion of the world which does still grow animals for food in their houses.

      I'm not a particularly brave person and I'm a "fool for the city" in the words of Foghat, but helping my grandmother kill and prepate one of her chickens wasn't particularly traumatic.

    57. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Well, they (or at least fewer of them) would have to die if we perfected in vitro meat. Suffering or not, pointless deaths should be prevented.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    58. Re:PETA by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      I think you're over-estimating people's squeamishness.

      I'm quite sure that I'm not. I've killed and eaten stuff, . . . That doesn't mean that I think everyone wants to do the same. But there's really no way to know other than to put the plan in to practice.

      I agree with you that a lot of modern people are pretty squeamish about killing and cleaning animals for food. But I don't think your plan of having people do it would make more vegetarians. I think people would just get used to it. Back in the old days when everyone killed their own animals for food you didn't have more vegetarians. Moders farmers don't seem like a large vegetarian group.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    59. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      His views would still only be an opinion, and not only that, but he sounds like a tyrant. Most religions seem to describe their god as some sort of evil tyrant who will make you suffer for all of eternity if you don't believe what he wants you to. Not a god worth worshiping, in my opinion.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    60. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Basically, you believe that, even though there is nothing inherently superior in your moral code, you should fight and kill people to prevent them from fighting and killing people in ways that violate your moral code. I find such a moral code repugnant. You don't want to fight and kill people because your moral code is superior, but just because they don't follow your code.
      If there is no absolute moral code, there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong", there is just what I prefer. Arguing about whether it is ok to enslave someone is like arguing whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    61. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Why should I care?

      Did I say that you should?

      most slashdotters who express your type of opinion reject my belief system and fail to replace it with one that gives any logically consistent reason as to why I should care about the suffering of others

      My type of opinion? I could care less what you believe. Care or don't, but I'm going to continue believing what I believe. There are no absolute morals.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    62. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Actually, even if there was a god, his views on what is 'right' or 'wrong' would only be his opinion, not fact.

      So, when your car manufacturer tells you that for best performance you should change the oil in your car on a regular basis, that is just their opinion, not fact? If you think your car will run just as well with no oil, there is no reason why you should put oil in it?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    63. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      couldn't care less*

      That's annoying enough when I see other people saying that, let alone myself.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    64. Re:PETA by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, I think we'd have a lot less meat eaters with such a system implemented, and that WOULD reduce environmental damage under other current systems.

      Homo Sapiens existed for a couple hundred thousand years before animal domestication, in which time our ancestors at a LOT of meat that they had to kill and butcher themselves. While some present-day humans might have some initial squeamishness about killing what they eat, I think they'd get over it quickly. Our ancestors had to do it, why couldn't we?

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    65. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Suffering or not, pointless deaths should be prevented.

      Why?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    66. Re:PETA by shentino · · Score: 1

      I think a reason that they *don't* offer tours is because they know damn well people wouldn't be inclined to eat meat if they knew about how it was made.

      They're too greedy to let it happen, and too vicious to let folks like you get away with even suggesting it.

    67. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But no, I guess ... placing ads of naked hippies should really come first.

      Yep.

    68. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      What? What does this have to do with moral absolutes?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    69. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Why? It's because I think they should. How about you? Why not? Is my opinion really so hard to grasp?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    70. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Basically, you believe that, even though there is nothing inherently superior in your moral code, you should fight and kill people to prevent them from fighting and killing people in ways that violate your moral code.

      Where did I say I want to kill people? I'm absolutely against killing people or any kind of death penalty. I'm also completely against preventive punishment.

      I find such a moral code repugnant. You don't want to fight and kill people because your moral code is superior, but just because they don't follow your code.

      I don't want to kill people, period.

      When I say "fight", I'm not talking about violent means necessarily. It may simply mean expressing my personal opinion, or voting against a law, or whatever.

      The dictionary definition of "fight" includes:
      * fight against or resist strongly; "The senator said he would oppose the bill"; "Don't fight it!"
      * competitiveness: an aggressive willingness to compete; "the team was full of fight"
      * an intense verbal dispute; "a violent fight over the bill is expected in the Senate"
      * make a strenuous or labored effort; "She struggled for years to survive without welfare"; "He fought for breath"
      * crusade: exert oneself continuously, vigorously, or obtrusively to gain an end or engage in a crusade for a certain cause or person; be an advocate for; "The liberal party pushed for reforms"; "She is crusading for women's rights"; "The Dean is pushing for his favorite candidate"

      None of these are necessarily violent.

      I find such a moral code repugnant.

      I don't care.

      If there is no absolute moral code, there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong", there is just what I prefer. Arguing about whether it is ok to enslave someone is like arguing whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

      Well, not necessarily: if you can find an inconsistency in the opponents' moral code, you can argue using that.

      But I don't believe there is an universal standard we can draw moral conclusions from, no.

    71. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why? It's because I think they should. How about you? Why not? Is my opinion really so hard to grasp?

      It's inconsistent. We've now gone from logistics to religion. I asked a question and you got defensive. HTH, HAND.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    72. Re:PETA by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      We can't "own" our animal equals!

      I can, but that's because I'm not a penniless hippie.

    73. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It's inconsistent.

      It would be nice if you could explain what you're talking about so that I wouldn't have to continually ask what it is you're talking about (but apparently that's being defensive). So, I'll just ask: how is my opinion inconsistent?

      I asked a question and you got defensive

      You're confusing getting defensive with asking a few questions.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    74. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      When the car manufacturer says "you should change the oil in your car on a regular basis", it is an opinion.
      When they say "your car's performance/condition will suffer if you don't change its oil on a regular basis", it's a fact.
      Of course, when they say the former, they actually mean they latter, because it's assumed that if you bought a car, you want it to last and perform.

      If the hypothetical god said "you should do X", it would be his/her/whatever opinion. If he/she/whatever said "if you don't do X, you'll be sent to hell when you die", that would be a fact. Well, assuming it was true, of course, I suppose a god could lie too.

    75. Re:PETA by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Considering the energy requirements for hunting, as opposed to the energy requirements for gathering, there's a reason many modern scientists think that our core energy/dietary needs were met by gathered food, rather than hunted food. It's no coincidence that one of the most important food types for proper nutrition is raw grains like chick peas.

      That's not to say that we aren't evolved to eat meat, or that meat isn't an important part of the diet. There's certain nutrients/amino acids that *most* of us can't get from anything other than meat. But you can live quite well eating meat once or twice a week, and getting your protein requirements from grains or eggs.

    76. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would walk into a job in their marketing department.

    77. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      Then it's a meaningless construction of semantics. "I have every right to believe what I believe, you have every right to believe what you believe, I believe you have no right to believe what you believe...."

      Ergo, black hole. There's such a thing as having a respect for multiple viewpoints, but it doesn't boil down to nihilism.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    78. Re:PETA by tycoex · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The only reason we are so squimish about it is because we don't see it anymore. If everyone was forced to go see animals get slaughtered we would simply lose the squimishness.

      I've caught and gutted my own fish before. Does that count?

    79. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      No, if there is a god, his views on what is “right” and “wrong” are fact, by very definition. If there is more than one god, things not so clear...

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    80. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vegetarianism, and even veganism, works just fine for modern humans. Yes, eating meat was critical for our survival and evolvement in the past but it's not in the 21st century.


      Why the hell do you care that some people don't want to eat meat?

      I don't care at all. But it's the "what's right for me should be right for everyone" attitude you display in the tops statements which draws the negative reaction. Just eat what you want, and leave other people alone about what they eat, already. Sheesh!

    81. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      I think that the definition of an Abrahamic god includes the part where he has final say over what's right and wrong. If God says it's right to blow up a plane, then by golly, it is.

      (Good argument for atheism, IMHO.)

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    82. Re:PETA by Demonantis · · Score: 1

      I am getting a growing concerned about PETA people having children for some reason right now.

    83. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love how arrogant narcissists like you think you should have the right to control people and take away their liberty and freedom to satisfy your emotional needs. Life is life. Animals and plants both have the same level of right to life. It's disturbing how easily some can pretend that some life forms are "better" than others and "deserve" a different level of treatment.

    84. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No, if there is a god, his views on what is “right” and “wrong” are fact

      How so? This confuses me. There is no 'right' or 'wrong', just opinions on the subject.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    85. Re:PETA by Sylak · · Score: 1

      Back in the old days when everyone killed their own animals for food you didn't have more vegetarians.

      I think you actually had Less vegetarians then. Clearly what this leads me to believe is that not slaughtering their own animals has made people weak.

    86. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't until I was told REPEATEDLY that I shouldn't eat meat.

      FTFY.

    87. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If god exists and is a supreme and ultimate being (the dictionary says “the supreme or ultimate reality, the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe”), his opinion on right, wrong, or anything else is the ultimate reality by definition.

      Or, to put it differently, if there is a god, his opinion is the only one that counts. Just like there are plenty of people with opinions about the interpretation of our civil laws, but the supreme court’s opinion is ultimately the only opinion that counts. The entity with the power to enforce the rules gets to decide how they are interpreted.

    88. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's one thing I've never understood. What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food?

      Animal-rights people don't understand computer stuff, computer geeks don't understand animal rights, and both are high-and-mighty about their ignorance. What a shock.

      Go volunteer at an animal shelter sometime. The good, no-kill shelters try hard to only adopt out animals to good homes like yours and yet they still have their share of horror stories. Last-chance shelters like Animal Care and Control (ACC) in the U.S. are much, much worse. Ever hear a "heartwarming" story about some abused animal who was rescued (e.g. Michael Vick's fighting dogs)? Remember that the animal spent much of its life in an abuse situation in the first place.

      Not every pet owner is so nice. Some are truly nasty. There are folks who kidnap pets (or take "free" pets advertised on Craigslist) and then sell them to animal testing labs. Then there are puppy mills. Go read up on them. Others just think of their pets as a commodity. If little Billy wants a dog they'll give him one, and then dump that dog at the local shelter when Billy gets tired of him (see also rabbits and chicks at Easter, black cats at Halloween). That attitude is painfully common. The point is that in the real world, not everyone is so nice to their pets.

      Knowing this, the PETA attitude of "gee, people are really fucking this thing up, maybe we should stop messing with it" doesn't seem so crazy to me. While living in the "wild" may not be as comfortable as living in someone's house, animals which were never pets can definitely handle it. That's actually what they've evolved to do, remember. Go read up on TNR. Letting outdoor animals live out their lives outdoors rather than trying to round them up is currently considered to be the best and most moral way to deal with animal overpopulation in urban areas. Animals are quite capable of living outdoors. Yes, even cats and dogs.

      The point is, "let wild animals be wild" is not an insane philosophy, folks. Whether or not you agree with it, you should be able to understand it.

      Disclaimer: I do not work with PETA and am not affiliated with them in any way. I just volunteer at a local no-kill shelter, and have volunteered at other no-kill shelters in the past.

    89. Re:Peta by Per+Wigren · · Score: 0

      You draw weird conclusions. How can you interpret "meat is no longer critical for our survival" as "what's right for me should be right for everyone"? That attitude came from the other direction with "vegetarians are a sad subspecies of the human kind".

      I eat vegetarian for my own and the animals' sake but I never evangelise unless someone ask me WHY I don't eat meat (then I explain but try to not sound too judgemental), or say degrading things about vegetarians.

      So yes, please let me eat my rabbit food and leave me alone about it already.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    90. Re:PETA by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Something has just occurred to me. You know all those anti-gayer politicians, the ones who spend every waking moment thinking about nothing except men putting their man-bits into other man-bits? Putting them in hard and urgently, thrusting again and again and again and agaaiiiuuuuuuuurh.

      Maybe PETA is like those guys. They just can't stop thinking about murdering furry animals. Their trusting eyes begging them, no, please, not the lethal injection, don't stick it in meeeeeeeee....

      You protest too much, and people are going to start to question whether you're more interested in the cure, or the problem.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    91. Re:Peta by PitaBred · · Score: 2

      Not really. Genetics don't change that quickly. We've been eating meat for millions of years, and those dietary needs won't change. Most of the western world does eat a lot more meat than they need, but a healthy vegan needs supplements to make up for missing nutrients easily available in meat. Even more so for children.

    92. Re:PETA by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Your problem is that you're trying to apply logic to and idealogical group. That's never going to work.

    93. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      There's no reason it should boil down to nihilism unless you particularly want to believe in nihilism. It's quite possible to believe someone has the right to their beliefs and still wish them ill for those beliefs and any actions taken based thereon.

      It's like time and relativity. Near the speed of light, my personal time would be vastly different from a stationary person's. It's both possible and acceptable to acknowledge that their time is valid to them but not remotely care about it when deciding when dinner time is for myself.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    94. Re:PETA by TheLink · · Score: 1

      and placing ads of naked hippies should really come first.

      Of course! That's one of the other reasons why I eat tasty animals.

      So that PETA will produce more "pictorials" with sexy scantily clad or naked girls.

      --
    95. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      his opinion on right, wrong, or anything else is the ultimate reality by definition.

      But, something that is entirely based on opinion can't be 'right' or 'wrong'. It's just illogical.

      The entity with the power to enforce the rules gets to decide how they are interpreted.

      Yes, but that's ultimately only their opinion, not fact.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    96. Re:PETA by benhattman · · Score: 1

      Logic failure.. So what if we rounded up all the homeless people; it wouldn't be cruel to painlessly kill them too? I'm sure lots of homeless people wouldn't mind you killing them because you believe they are suffering just as I'm sure the cats and dogs that are homeless wouldn't mind too.

      Oomph, Logic fail yourself. If you feel strongly about this, I would suggest you look into what Peter Singer has to say on the topic. I think his argument could be summarized as ethics is behaving such that you produce no suffering. He specifically discuss the issue of whether or not you can ethically eat any animals, and his answer is: yes, but only the ones with no sense of feeling.

      The GPs argument is fairly compelling actually. If you raise a cow in an ethical manner (giving the cow a good life by cow standards), and if you could press a button that instantaneously turned the cow into hamburger, at least from the cow's perspective I think you could say you acted with no cruelty.

      As another poster pointed out, the homeless person example might differ if they knew you were going to off them. Also, presumably with the cow, nobody is going to mourn them. With a homeless person, they may still have family or friends who would mourn their passing. That's another level of harm you need to consider.

      Personally, I think the real answer to the question of how equal to humans are other animals is far more complicated than most people want to consider. Their suffering often isn't equal to ours, because they lack certain mental capabilities which can actually exaggerate suffering. At the same time, animal suffer is something we are able to contemplate, and perhaps we should think on it more than we do currently.

    97. Re:PETA by SteveFoerster · · Score: 2

      That's one thing I've never understood. What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food?

      Nothing at all. And I'm vegan.

      In fact, this is probably a good time to point out that not all vegans think the PETA people have their heads on straight. Just because I don't want to contribute to the cruelty that happens in factory farms doesn't mean I think animals should have the right to vote or whatever.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    98. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      History disagrees with you. People ate meat long before it became posibble to buy it pre-slaughtered in a grocery store, and in fact vegetarianism wasn't widely adopted (outside of India) until well after the need to slaughter your own meat was eliminated.

      It seems like the moral imperative to avoid slaugtering animals is fairly independant of whether or not you have ever actually slaughtered an animal. And without that imperative you'd look at a slaughterhouse roughly the same way a vegetarian looks at a combine (I'll give you a hint, it's more "hey look at that machien harvest the corn, that's kinda' neat" than "oh the poor plants are being decapitated, the horror").

    99. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      If there is a god who created the universe, then he/she/it is the manufacturer, if he/she/it says that certain behaviors (moral code) are the way that human interaction works best then that moral code is fact, not opinion.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    100. Re:PETA by brainboyz · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Not too long ago, most families slaughtered their own or raised them for when the butcher came. I'd say there were far less veggies then than now. And how do you explain the millions of hunters that go out, some multiple times, every year to kill, dress, butcher, and freeze their own meat (bird, deer, or otherwise)?

    101. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      If there is no universal standard for a moral code, arguing over disagreements between your moral code and someone else's is like arguing over whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    102. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, something that is entirely based on opinion can't be 'right' or 'wrong'. It's just illogical.

      An opinion is what a person has based on limited knowledge and intellect. Using words like “opinion” to describe the conclusions drawn by a consciousness having limitless knowledge and intelligence is fundamentally silly.

      Yes, but that's ultimately only their opinion, not fact.

      If you go to court and tell the judge that running stop signs is perfectly okay, and if he thinks it’s not okay, well, that’s just, like, his opinion, man... he’ll pretty quickly inform you whose opinion matters. And that’s a fact.

    103. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Actually, the statement, "You should do X," carries with it the assumption that you will prefer the consequences of doing X to the consequences of not doing X. If the hypothetical god is like that portrayed by Judaism and Christianity such an opinion would also be a fact.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    104. Re:PETA by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      That's not a point the general Slashdot population is going to recognize all that easily...

    105. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No, it's still only opinion about what is 'right' and 'wrong'. It might be fact that it works 'best' for them, but the act of liking or disliking a certain behavior isn't.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    106. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moral relativism is itself an absolute position, so as to paradoxically privilege one perspective (relativism) over others. Well known issue.

    107. Re:PETA by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, in a decade plus of horrible car analogies, you just took the award for worst in Slashdot history.

    108. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      An opinion is what a person has based on limited knowledge and intellect.

      Yes, but not of something that consists only and entirely of opinions. There is no absolute rights or wrongs.

      If you go to court and tell the judge that running stop signs is perfectly okay, and if he thinks it’s not okay, well, that’s just, like, his opinion, man... he’ll pretty quickly inform you whose opinion matters. And that’s a fact.

      I don't know why you even added this to your post. I wasn't arguing that you can argue "that's your opinion" and get away with whatever you want. I was arguing that even if society believes something, that doesn't make it right. By all means, be prepared to face the consequences of your actions, but what you do isn't necessarily 'right' or 'wrong'.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    109. Re:PETA by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      We can't "own" our animal equals!

      I can, but that's because I'm not a penniless hippie.

      Why limit yourself? With a cleaver marketing campaign, you can own some penniless hippies!

    110. Re:PETA by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      I just can't stand f**ing hypocrites.

      Dunno why not, they're just as good in the sack as everyone else.

      Yes, but the talking afterwards...

    111. Re:PETA by shentino · · Score: 1

      Manually butchering your own food is a mile apart from a mass production facility that does many of them and has incentive to cut corners.

    112. Re:PETA by Kitsune+Inari · · Score: 1

      And yes, you don't "own" a cat, they just come and live with you.

      Actually, in most cases, it's more like you are the cat's pet.

    113. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing over disagreements between my moral code and yours - I'm arguing over differences between my moral code and your perception of it.

    114. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but not of something that consists only and entirely of opinions. There is no absolute rights or wrongs.

      Yes, because you’ve defined them in such a way that they don’t exist... no, in such a way that they can’t exist. That’s about as useful as defining a square circle. Besides, if an ultimate god exists his definition is the only one that ultimately counts anyway.

      The only useful definition of “right” and “wrong” is inherently defined by what a consciousness with all of the attributes of god (infinitely wise, knowing, powerful, loving, etc.) would determine them to be.

      If the decision made by a being with limitless knowledge and intelligence isn’t going to be called “right”, what do you want to call it?

    115. Re:PETA by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      "placing ads of naked hippies should really come first."

      And for that reason alone I completely support PETA. (NSFW probably NSFW)

      I wouldn't say "completely support" peta... Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But the nude hippies are nicer looking than a broken clock!

    116. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what about drinking another animals milk? Going around in the dead skin of an animal is a bit weird too right?

      Have you seen how bad the standards are in large scale dairy industry?

      Isn't this about the animals' welfare, not your squeamishness?

      Personally I can't see how we can not farm and kill animals now, their products and by-products are too integral to our society. The only ethical course left is to ensure welfare standards and that they have a quick humane death at the end of it all.

    117. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They still have the crazy idea that animals have rights, and those rights are equal to humans. I don't like seeing things like dog fights, because dogs are cute and I don't want them to get hurt. But I recognize that I only want them protected because they're cute. Chickens are ugly and good eating, I don't care what happens to them as long as they're safe and tasty when they end up on my plate.

    118. Re:PETA by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      Even when some people take their dogs out to hunting or something the pet actually most often enjoys it, it's not forced to it, it's good for it, and again is not slavery in the least bit.

      Considering that I've heard situations where a hunter is done for the day and his dog desperately wants to get free to go get another hunter's kills.... It's just fetch, except instead of throwing a stick there's a loud noise and then the "stick" falls out of the sky.

    119. Re:PETA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Actually, the statement, "You should do X," carries with it the assumption that you will prefer the consequences of doing X to the consequences of not doing X.

      Not necessarily, depends on X. "You should kill yourself" returns 716000 results on Google.

      If the hypothetical god is like that portrayed by Judaism and Christianity such an opinion would also be a fact.

      I'd argue the Judaism and Christianity god is logically inconsistent anyway; for example, he cannot lie, while at the same time being omnipotent.

    120. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though you have the legal right to believe wacky shit willingly, I believe you have a moral obligation to avoid believing wacky shit if your mind is otherwise sound (i.e. you are perfectly able to choose not to believe wacky shit).

        A world view not based on truth and reason (which are objective standards) is harmful and immoral.

    121. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Yes, because you’ve defined them in such a way that they don’t exist

      They don't. How could they?

      The only useful definition of “right” and “wrong” is inherently defined by what a consciousness with all of the attributes of god (infinitely wise, knowing, powerful, loving, etc.) would determine them to be.

      Again, not really.

      infinitely wise

      It seems like if they were infinitely wise, they'd be able to utilize basic logic.

      loving

      That's funny. Most gods that people speak of seem to be tyrannical idiots.

      If the decision made by a being with limitless knowledge and intelligence isn’t going to be called “right”, what do you want to call it?

      I don't believe in a god whose opinions are somehow fact while everyone else's isn't. That seems highly illogical to me in the first place.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    122. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are the only one who seems to have a problem with basic logic, here.

      You have defined "right" and "wrong" as useless, non-existent concepts and you willfully ignore the things which, if they really exist, you refuse to call "right" and "wrong" but which form the only logical basis for determining them.

    123. Re:PETA by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      Considering the energy requirements for hunting, as opposed to the energy requirements for gathering, there's a reason many modern scientists think that our core energy/dietary needs were met by gathered food, rather than hunted food.

      As far as modern hunter-gatherer societies go, "Most (73%) of the worldwide hunter-gatherers derived > 50% (56-65%) of their subsistence from animal foods (hunted and fished), whereas only 13.5% of worldwide hunter-gatherers derived > 50% (56-65%) of their subsistence from gathered plant foods"

      It's likely that ancient H-G societies functioned in a similar way.

      According to:
      Cordain L, Brand Miller J, Eaton SB, Mann N, Holt SHA and Speth JD. 2000. Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2000;71:682-92

      It's no coincidence that one of the most important food types for proper nutrition is raw grains like chick peas.
      I'm curious of why you specified that they are "raw", since raw foods have much less nutritionally available content vs cooked foods. Take those same raw chick peas and cook them, and the human body (and every animal, for that matter) can absorb the nutrients much more effectively.

      But you can live quite well eating meat once or twice a week, and getting your protein requirements from grains or eggs.
      Of course. I mean, you don't even need the meat once or twice a week- people can do just fine on purely vegetarian diets. Another interesting note on grains though- it seems that eating meat allows humans to more effectively eat other types of plant foods as well.

      from http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html:

      Buffered against nutritional deficiency by meat, human ancestors also could intensify their use of plant foods with toxic compounds such as cyanogenic glycosides, foods other primates would have avoided, said Milton. These compounds can produce deadly cyanide in the body, but are neutralized by methionine and cystine, sulfur-containing amino acids present in meat. Sufficient methionine is difficult to find in plants. Most domesticated grains - wheat, rice, maize, barley, rye and millet - contain this cyanogenic compound as do many beans and widely-eaten root crops such as taro and manioc.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    124. Re:PETA by Philomage · · Score: 1

      Why limit yourself? With a cleaver marketing campaign, you can own some penniless hippies!

      Cleaver marketing campaign? Is that like threatening them with a cleaver until they agree to become your slaves?

    125. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      You are the only one who seems to have a problem with basic logic, here.

      No, you're saying that if such a god does exist, then his version of right and wrong is correct. I'm saying that I don't believe that such a god can exist.

      useless, non-existent concepts

      They kind of are.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    126. Re:PETA by Philomage · · Score: 1

      Several ways to respond to GP...

      You:

      Dunno why not, they're just as good in the sack as everyone else.

      Pratchet: "'You shouldn't ---- hypocrites then,' effortlessly pronouncing a string of dashes"

      Me:

      I just can't stand f**ing hypocrites.

      You should try it lying down then...

    127. Re:PETA by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, we also have lived without computers for millions of years. I'd like to see you try. It's certainly possible, but oh what a trouble you'd go through...

      Note that some people do. First example that comes to mind: Amish. But since they haven't "evolved" into a technological society, in par to our processed meat eating society, I don't think they really apply.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    128. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It would be nice if you could explain what you're talking about

      Try clicking the "Parent" button.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    129. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      All you said is "why." I don't see how that answers my question. Considering I never talked to you about religion, I don't know what your reply is referencing.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    130. Re:PETA by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Freudian slip? :)

    131. Re:PETA by donscarletti · · Score: 1

      That's one thing I've never understood. What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food?

      I don't want to sound like I support PETA, but that was a key argument for slavery. The idea being that most (though not all) slave owners treated their slaves fairly well and that an uneducated slave would have trouble finding a living in the open market as well as finding a home, food and safety. It was true in some respects, especially during the early years of US emancipation, but utterly did not justify slavery in any way shape or form, since a human should be free, nomatter what the cost. Anyway, PETA's problem is that they apply the wrong moral axioms to animals, not because they have simply failed to consider the implications.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    132. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You were saying you would fight over your moral code, according to your understanding of what a moral code is that is like fighting over whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    133. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      So... some people are dicks, so no one should have a pet?

      Thats the logic I grabbed from your post.

      We have 3 cats, and we have never abused them (outside of feeding them late from time to time). My mom, when I was a kid, volunteered for a no-kill shelter, and took in may abandoned pets that couldn't fit in the shelter system, we obviously never abused a single one. The organization she was part of placed abandoned animals, and did semiannual checkups on them for the first 2-3 years. My dad ones a rescued fighting dog, and has never abused it (despite almost shooting it once, since it is a bit damaged from its life).

      My Mom and Dad used to go pick up strays, spay or neuter them, and drop them back off where they found them.

      But no, we shouldn't have pets, because Micheal Vick is an asshole? Or a small minority of people are assholes?

      PETA is shameful. They hurt the animal rights movement more than they help it. I pretty much decided that the world would be better off without PETA when they did their whole "feedlots = Auschwitz" campaign. That might have been one of the most distasteful ad campaigns in the history of the world, and pretty much opened up anyone who says "animal rights" up for ridicule. Also anyone who claims animals have equal rights with humans is just a nut job, it is almost impossible to take that statement seriously, must less rationally justify it. Animals are not little people.

      And "let wild animals be wild" is nonsensical. Cats and dogs are as much wild animals as cows and domesticated turkeys and modern corn. There has been many many thousands of years of man-made evolutionary pressure on them. Pets are manufactured products, pretty much. Yes, they can go feral, and live semi-successfully in the wild, but often not viably since they basically have no natural environmental anymore. Also having a large load of feral domestic animals can lead to some nasty consequences on the local fauna.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    134. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are even better in the sack. All that stuff they say they won't do, they actually will do !!!

    135. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Peta should stick to their valid core business of fighting ill treatment of animals...

      If that was actually their core business they might be more reasonable. The best that can be said about them is that they may have raised public awareness about animal cruelty. PETA exists primarily so their leader Ingrid Newkirk has an opportunity to hobnob with celebrities. The worst thing about them is they divert funds from legitimate conservation and environmental organizations, groups that actually work towards legitimate goals.

    136. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      It's because I think they should. Is my opinion really so hard to grasp?

      Well, OBVIOUSLY. And nobody is having trouble grasping your opinion; it was quite clear. He asked why, and no, “cause I said so” isn’t a valid reason.

      You claim that you don’t believe in right and wrong, but you expressed a moral absolute: “Suffering or not, pointless deaths should be prevented”. Now justify it.

      What makes your opinion any more valid than that of a person who thinks that causing lots of pointless death and needless suffering is the perfect way to spend a sunny Saturday afternoon?

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    137. Re:PETA by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      I'm all for that. At least give our bodies to the wolves so they can have a nice meal.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    138. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      There are no absolute morals.

      Yet, you just told us what we should do to prevent something that you think is bad:

      “we should just use our supposedly intelligent minds to perfect in vitro meat so that no animals will have to suffer”.

      If there are no absolute morals, you don’t get to have an opinion about how other people ought to behave. Your morals don’t apply to them.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    139. Re:PETA by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Let's look at it from a different perspective. Let's say you're an animal rights believer. How would you defend your beliefs against a society that couldn't care less?

      If your strategy sounds better than PETA's, maybe they could profit from your wisdom.

      If, in the other hand, you're incapable of defending their ideals, then I'm afraid they, as much as you, don't have a lot of options in hand other than not doing it, period.

      Since they're in a moral dilemma, they'll probably choose the way less than optimal tactic of combativeness: from lack of better option.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    140. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      Take those same raw chick peas and cook them, and the human body (and every animal, for that matter) can absorb the nutrients much more effectively.

      Or sprout them, in which case they’re still raw.

      But I’m actually pretty sure that by “raw grains” he really just meant “grains that haven’t been processed, refined, bleached, and enriched”.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    141. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I myself have two cats and I would say they are MUCH better off here with me than out there in the Finnish winter. Hell, you don't need to be an expert or anything to see that they actually like their life here. Even if I open the door and let them out they come back after 3 minutes, they just simply don't want to go there.

      So, I just simply do not understand PETA and their ideals.

      Perhaps it would help you if you understood that your cats did not belong in Finland, that Finland was not their native range, and that you're the one who brought them there. Well, not you personally, probably, but mankind itself.

      That's part of the problem with your reasoning, you're just as biased in your perspective as you claim PETA to be. Maybe you should look at some of the animals that have been exploited and abused though, to see some of the other side, and then tell me why you want to let anybody have them.

      Tough question either way.

    142. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, many of them are probably a lot better, being sick-twisted perverts who desperately need an outlet that they can't find in their public life. :)

    143. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      He asked why, and no, “cause I said so” isn’t a valid reason.

      It is when we're talking purely about opinions. I merely don't like to see things needlessly die, that's all.

      You claim that you don’t believe in right and wrong, but you expressed a moral absolute: “Suffering or not, pointless deaths should be prevented”. Now justify it.

      Let me rephrase: I believe that they should be prevented. I thought that was obvious, but I suppose it is my fault.

      What makes your opinion any more valid than that of a person who thinks that causing lots of pointless death and needless suffering is the perfect way to spend a sunny Saturday afternoon?

      It doesn't, as I've been stating all along (or at the very least, trying to).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    144. Re:PETA by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      The problem (as I see it) isn't with animals having owners (as long as the owners aren't abusing them), but the whole business of breeding animals and with people abandoning them in the city. If you bought your cats from a breeder, you aren't blame-free.

    145. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't, as I've been stating all along (or at the very least, trying to).

      Then this argument is nothing more than an exercise in mental masturbation.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    146. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Yet, you just told us what we should do to prevent something that you think is bad:

      Again, I was stating my opinion. I used to add "I think," "I believe," or "in my opinion" in front of just about everything I said. I thought that I wouldn't have to do that any longer, but apparently I will have to start again. I just thought that since I previously stated that I don't believe in absolute morals, it would be obvious that I was just stating my opinion. I guess not.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    147. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I suppose so considering all anyone has been posting is mere opinions.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    148. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Animals are not little people.

      Perhaps not, but they're also not factually less important than humans. That said, I don't like PETA, and I think most of their ad campaigns are just idiotic.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    149. Re:PETA by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      She. And yes. That's exactly what she meant.

    150. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that PETA don't think *any* animals should be domesticated, so mostly they don't even bother to try to rehome animals.

      That's one thing I've never understood. What exactly is wrong with an animal having a caring owner, someone to trust to, a warm home, no need to be afraid of predators, and not having to get cold and sometimes go days without food? I myself have two cats and I would say they are MUCH better off here with me than out there in the Finnish winter. Hell, you don't need to be an expert or anything to see that they actually like their life here. Even if I open the door and let them out they come back after 3 minutes, they just simply don't want to go there.

      So, I just simply do not understand PETA and their ideals.

      Let's get rid of the "own" bit and just say you can the cats have a symbiotic relationship :)

    151. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not, but they're also not factually less important than humans

      I'm not sure what you mean by "factually" in that statement.

      I am an animal lover, I have always had pets, and I find people who commit meaningless violence against animals to be abhorrent beyond words; but I can't really see animals being our equals on any level. From the most basic level, they are not us, and we naturally hold ourselves above everything else, this springs from the basic flaw in their being; not being us (I'm not saying this is strictly logical, but it is a real mental state). This is somewhat necessary, since we pretty much owe a good deal of our existence to slaughtering, and eating, animals. I would go so far as to say that this is the natural state of affairs for humans (and other omni and carnivores), you can't stay alive by eating the flesh of other while worrying to much about their ethical and humanistic (bad word, but others escape me) standing.

      A bit of egotism (or species-centrism) is a healthy thing, and probably a necessary thing.

      Animals, also, are no where near as complex as us. We have giant, obscenely complex, brains, and a hugely complex social organization. Most animals completely pale in comparison to our rational abilities, much less to our works. Its very hard to argue than any species can even come close to us in cognitive ability.

      I'm not sure how you would define importance, in this case, so... But we probably can use a subjective measure. "My cat would think he is more important, and I think I am, so we are equals". This fails completely because my cat is completely incapable of actually having that thought.

      I'm not advocating violence against animals, etc... But I can accept the thought that they are pretty much our inferiors. I don't need to artificially elevate them to be able to grant them some modicum of rights.

      You should read Douglas Hofstadter's (of "Godel, Escher, Bach" fame) "I am a Strange Loop"... He goes into things like this, and pretty much links level of cognitive complexity to "ensoulment" (not meant in the religious sense), which correlates to the level of reguard we should give non-human things

       

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    152. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you mean by "factually" in that statement.

      As in, in terms of universal importance, they are likely not less important than us. You can hold the opinion that you're more important, but it's not an established fact, no matter what toys humans build or how intelligent they are. Everything dies in the end, and our accomplishments here are almost meaningless from what I can see, even if we ourselves hold value in them.

      From the most basic level, they are not us, and we naturally hold ourselves above everything else

      I don't. It seems kind of pointless, but it is your opinion.

      But I can accept the thought that they are pretty much our inferiors.

      Again, that isn't a fact. What I mean by that is our universal importance. If we vanished, it wouldn't matter. We aren't naturally 'better' (as in, our lives are somehow worth more than everything else for no reason) than anything else, it is just a majorities opinion that we are. That's all I meant.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    153. Re:PETA by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

      What I mean by that is our universal importance.

      Who or what defines "universal importance"?

      If we vanished, it wouldn't matter.

      If the earth vanished, it also wouldn't "matter" to the universe. The only ones it would matter to would be us.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    154. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Producing no suffering is ethics? Sounds like a line that a super villain would use to justify cleansing the earth of pain by killing all life, or reminiscent of something Dr. Who cybermen use to justify their conversions.

      Not saying that this Peter Singer is a secret plant by an alien race determined to dominate this planet and its people, just saying that he hasn't denied being the forerunner of an interstellar invasion fleet, or an army of cyborgs.

    155. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      By your logic we and other animals aren't universally more important than any plant, or bacteria, or even a rock.

      In fact, no matter or energy in the universe is "important" in the first place, because for importance to be assigned there needs to be a self-aware observer assigning it.

    156. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      If the earth vanished, it also wouldn't "matter" to the universe. The only ones it would matter to would be us.

      You're right. It wouldn't matter at all. Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion, and worth ultimate worth can't be defined as fact.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    157. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Everything you said appears to be in line with my way of thinking.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    158. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Usually they're considered opinions with justifications and reasons, not merely beliefs based upon your own emotional reactions with no explanation or clarification for even the barest minimum of though process that brought you to your conclusions.

    159. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Ok, was just checking to see if you were just playing logic games like I thought.

    160. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Usually they're considered opinions with justifications and reasons

      Not if the subject is entirely opinion based, such as likes or dislikes. Well, I suppose there are reasons, but those reasons aren't necessarily valid to someone else. I don't believe that absolute morals exist because there's no reason to think they do exist. How does someone else's moral code somehow have more weight than mine? Society may think its moral code does, but in reality it's just a massively held moral code and nothing more. A simple reason, but there it is.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    161. Re:Peta by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      And what about drinking another animals milk? Going around in the dead skin of an animal is a bit weird too right?

      Well, yes, actually it is.

      Have you seen how bad the standards are in large scale dairy industry?

      Yes, unfortunately I have.

      Isn't this about the animals' welfare, not your squeamishness?

      I have to draw the line somewhere. I drew that line somewhere between killed animals and usage of what animals produce.

      Actually, this kind of criticism bothers me the most. It's as if doing nothing is better than doing a little and not caring at all is better than only caring about a subset. When I turned vegetarian about 12 years ago there were some vegans who previously didn't care that I ate meat who now suddenly started to criticize me for being "only" vegetarian. Well, fuck them.

      If you want to continue to eat meat I won't bother you about it.

      What I can't stand is when people take PRIDE in not caring and even worse, hate people for giving a damn about the animals.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    162. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Many people already do. Donate your body to medicine or science and/or sign the organ donor release on the back of your license:

      http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2654/how-do-you-donate-your-body-to-science

    163. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but there's still plenty of wasted space being used by people who absolutely insist on burying bodies. What's the point?

      If you need a gravestone to remember them, chances are you don't actually care about them. Other people won't remember a name on some random tombstone. You also don't need a tombstone to 'honor' the dead. You can 'honor' them in memory. It's just such a waste.

      If only more people would do the above...

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    164. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      There are no absolute morals.

      Yet, you just told us what we should do to prevent something that you think is bad:

      “we should just use our supposedly intelligent minds to perfect in vitro meat so that no animals will have to suffer”.

      If there are no absolute morals, you don’t get to have an opinion about how other people ought to behave. Your morals don’t apply to them.

      Bollocks. There doesn't need to be an absolute morality for people to impose their morals on others. It comes down to three things: what you believe, what others believe, and what you can impose on them. If 99% of people agree murder is wrong and they all also agree that it's merely an arbitrary convention they all happen to hold, it doesn't mean their hands are tied in dealing with the 1% who disagree.

      Every logical argument for a given moral choice boils down to an assumed common ground. In this case, he's presumably assuming that everyone feels that killing animals is a bad thing. If you don't feel that way, there's not really a lot he can do to change your mind, so why bother? Personally, I like the idea of something that cuts down on the suffering of animals.... but I like affordable meat even better. So I sympathize with his opinion, but ultimately reject his policy recommendation. And so it goes.

    165. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Regardless of how valid someone's reasons are, if you don't tell us what your reasons are and refuse to detail any aspect of them, we can only assume that you have none. Thus your opinion in the eyes of your peers on slashdot becomes a belief.

    166. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      I lived on a small subsistence farm in Honduras for a while, and let me tell you, after a week of living with chickens and cows and turkeys and pigs, believe me, I would have no problem slicing their necks.

      You put anyone on a farm, and they will get over whatever urban squeamishness they had real quick.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    167. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      if you don't tell us what your reasons are and refuse to detail any aspect of them

      I never really refused. However, I did just go into detail about them.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    168. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      And while we're talking about eating meat, I think that anyone who wants to eat meat should have to participate in the slaughtering, dressing, cooking, and eating of an animal in sequence,

      Okay, as long as anyone that wants to eat vegetables has to plant them, grow them, nurture them, and then harvest them.

      or take a full tour of a feedlot and slaughterhouse, in order to get a license to be permitted to eat meat.

      The primary deterrent here seems to be the hassle. People will be squeamish, sure, and it may gross them out. But then later, they'll smell a juicy hamburger and won't resist it. I went to a sewage treatment plant with a group of classmates on a field trip back in middle school, and they showed how nausea-inducing waste water is transformed into drinking water. Sure, we were all grossed out at the time, but I'd be shocked if a single one of these people now has sworn off ever drinking tap water (at least because of that, anyway). People get over it.

    169. Re:PETA by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      I don't see why they need to "defend their beliefs." They have them. Others disagree. They put on a campaign, get some controversial press coverage, the cycle continues. The converted already flock to them (some of them anyway---I've known plenty of vegans who were turned off by their tactics), the others don't.

      So why bother with it, when you could be doing real good (by their standard of goodness) with a focus on action (say, addressing the problems in their shelters) rather than activism?

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    170. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Well if you don't want to donate your body to medical science...

      The Japanese have come up with some ideas:
      http://www.pri.org/world/asia/japan-high-tech-graveyard-in-sky1680.html

      Others are taking the family heirloom idea to another level:
      http://www.lifegem.com/

      Many others prefer sea burials:
      http://www.suite101.com/content/burial-at-sea---funeral-choices-for-an-ocean-grave-a305707

      Others are taking a sea burial more literally and discovering a way to preserve full body burial without using up more land:
      http://www.nmreef.com/memorial+reef.18.lasso

      And still others are making records out of corpses:
      http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-08/27/and-vinyly

      And the point of burying a body is based on religion, culture and tradition. There are countless points and reasons for burying a body, some we would consider good reasons, others we would consider superstition and/or ridiculous. You obviously lump most of funeral tradition in this second catagory. Personally, I don't have many memories of my grandfather, but I still go to Sleepy Hollow Cemetery to visit him. I like the solitude and cold contemplative beauty of cemeteries, I also like reading gravestones and imagining the lives behind those names and quotes.

      But just because I like them, doesn't mean that I believe cemeteries are a sustainable method of burial or corpse disposal. But as my links point out, this is being addressed in many, many different ways. Cremation is becoming more popular, but something about creating a product out of my body after I die appeals to me. Personally I want to use my ashes in making whiskey for all my friends and relatives.

      What about you?

    171. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I was merely trying to address what I thought was confusion between yourself and other posters.

    172. Re:PETA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Ding! We have a winner. Everything about the typical slaughterhouse operation is filthy and indeed otherwise disgusting, it's not just death. A trip through a representative example would deter a lot of people from eating meat ever again, and still more from eating anything mass-processed.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    173. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      some we would consider good reasons

      I can't think of any right now. As for me, donating it to science/organ donation would be good.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    174. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would rather eat the meat of a free range animal, than consume the dairy products of an animal that is made pregnant as soon as possible, who's calf is taken off her immediately and if male likely killed; and spends her entire life in squalid conditions with oversized uncomfortable udders eating all the time because she does the energetic equivalent of running a marathon every day.

      I'm not saying do nothing. I'm saying do you care enough? Or is it easy giving up things you don't like anyway?

    175. Re:PETA by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Well that's good to hear, I have a friend that manages the medical cadavers for Columbia and they always need more. Sign the back of your license today. ^_^

    176. Re:PETA by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      Er... Truth and Reason are possibly the two least agreed upon topics in the history of the world. Try again.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    177. Re:PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There doesn't need to be an absolute morality for people to impose their morals on others.

      There needs to be an absolute morality for them to have the right to do it, or to do it without being hypocritical. Because if it’s just their morality, they have no more right to tell me what I should do than I have with my own morality to tell them what they should do – which they don’t want.

    178. Re:Peta by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      Do I care? Yes, very much. Do I care enough? Maybe. It's only a question about how much I'm willing to give up at this given moment. I've already given up meat, which is something. One day I might feel ready to take another step and give up something more. Do you think I'm making it too easy for myself? Why should it be hard? I'm not trying to be a hero.

      Imagine the wonders that could happen if everybody just gave up something easy to make the world a little bit better. Like choosing free range chicken instead of broiler chicken. Or choosing Fairtrade coffee. It doesn't need to be hard.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    179. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Obviously, there are differences, but there are also many similarities. I'm reading the Civil War section of Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States" at the moment. Zinn describes the shock of certain Southern slave owners when their slaves deserted the plantations in droves after the Emancipation Proclamation. They assumed the slaves would stay out of gratitude for all they perceived they'd done for them. Here's a quote from page 194: "Also in 1865, a South Carolina planter wrote to the New York Tribune that: the conduct of the Negro in the late crisis of our affairs has convinced me that we were all laboring under a delusion...I believed that these people were content, happy, and attached to their masters. But events and reflection have caused me to change these positions...If they were content, happy and attached to their masters, why did they desert him in the moment of his need and flock to an enemy, whom they did not know; and thus left their perhaps really good masters whom they did know from infancy?"

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    180. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Humans *are* animals and, in most places, animals *do* have rights, though not commensurate with the rights of animals of the human species.

      Of course, this raises the question of just who is "human"? Plenty of persons in positions of power have, in the past, tried to rationalize brutality to humans of African, Native American, Jewish and other ethnicities based on the premise that they are not human.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    181. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Also anyone who claims animals have equal rights with humans is just a nut job, it is almost impossible to take that statement seriously, must less rationally justify it. Animals are not little people.

      From where do humans derive their rights--scientifically-speaking? You can claim that humans have inalienable rights derived from God, but that's not a scientific proposition. Rationally-speaking, humans have the rights they have granted themselves. Humans can also grant whatever rights they choose to the other animals under their control. It's a choice, so there's nothing crazy about saying all animals ought to have the same rights.

      If you want to argue that animals can't speak, write, etc., and use that as a basis to deny them rights, then the same reasoning would apply to human babies. They can't sign contracts, so they ought not to have any rights?

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    182. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Good point. I made a similar point after you did and before I'd read your comment. I'm curious about which specific "wrong moral axioms" you're referring to?

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    183. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by "universal importance?" Ignoring the presence of some metaphysical super-being who gives everything meaning, pretty much nothing could be said to be important depending on the scale your looking at. Pretty much nothing really matters "universally", since the universe would tick along just fine without basically anything. Instead of important, I would claim that everything is universally insignificant.

      I might find some degree of solidarity with Lassie in this, but then again both me and Lassie are about equal to a bacteria or a single atom of cesium. I'm not going to go arguing that that single atom of cesium over there (I can see you lurking in the corner, scheming) is my equal, nor am I going to argue that the 10,000,000 bacteria I probably killed today are. I doubt you would either, since I'm sure your the wanton bug and bacteria killing machine that I am. Where is the line? At what point do I have to give something the respect I give myself?

      If there isn't a level, then things are just pretty meaningless. Our transience and insignificance doesn't garner respect, it more logically leads to apathy. If Lassie is as meaningless as me, then who really cares what happens to her? She will die anyways, and in tens of years no one will remember her.

      I don't find this as a good ground work for generating a system of much of anything. It is an unnatural scale, we, subjectively, don't really live there. Yes, the real universe is big, uncaring, etc... But that isn't where we live subjectively, or where our brains learned to cope or recognize. It is an abstraction. Ethics come from, and apply to, a much smaller realm, this one, and in smaller single generation time scales.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    184. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      I think there might be a bit of equivocation going on here. Moral relativism is an observation more than it is an opinion. A moral relativist *observes* that there is no known way to evaluate the fundamental correctness or incorrectness of opinions about right and wrong. I think GP maybe spoke a bit imprecisely with the notion of someone having "every right" to believe something. They simply *do* believe something, and there is no objective metric by which to prove that belief *incorrect*. But even if you could, it wouldn't necessarily stop them from believing it. Functionally, the only difference between absolute morality and moral relativism is that moral relativism includes an admission that no absolute standard of judgement exists.

      The lack of an absolute standard does not prevent you from telling people what you think they ought to think, and it doesn't stop you from taking action to impose your beliefs on them. Similarly, if there *were* an absolute standard, it would not prevent an "incorrect" person from disagreeing with the standard and telling you what they think you ought to think, and it wouldn't stop them from taking action to impose their beliefs on you. For all practical purposes, it really doesn't matter if there's an absolute morality or not, because people have the freedom of will to believe whatever they want.... so a parsimonious theory of morality should reject the notion as irrelevant.

      The problem I see people run into most commonly is the idea that there needs to be an absolute morality in order for someone to be justified in foisting it upon others. If it's just your opinion, what validity does it have to other people? But on the other hand, what empowerment do you have to force an absolute morality on people who reject it? Does the absolute morality contain a clause that it is moral to enforce the morality? I suppose it must. But if that's the case, then the same can be done with a relative morality. Your relative morality could *also* contain the clause that it is moral to enforce it on others. So ultimately, it doesn't matter whether the morality is absolute or not. I guess if it matters *to you* whether you think a morality is absolute or not, then it will make a difference *to you*.... but, in principle, there's no reason why it should matter.

    185. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Please give me a reason for this. Why should I care? (BTW, I have reasons from my own belief system as to why I should care about animal suffering, however, most slashdotters who express your type of opinion reject my belief system and fail to replace it with one that gives any logically consistent reason as to why I should care about the suffering of others).

      Because reason is just a tool, it's not a religion (well, it seems to be for some people).

      Still, to give a rational answer: extended self-interest. It's in your best interest to care about the suffering of others since (almost) all of us are dependent upon the goodwill of others for our survival.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    186. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      I've heard that sprouted (raw) grains and beans contain enzymes which aid in digestion of the grains and beans. I'm too lazy at the moment to find a reference other than my own personal experience.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    187. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      That's where you run into problems. Some people do think murder is right, some people do think rape is alright, some people do think slavery is right; according to your previous statement, you believe that they should fight for that, even if you personally find it repugnant.

      Actually, the moral relativist doesn't have to believe that. The moral relativist just admits that there is no fundamental way to judge his morals as more or less correct than the murderer/rapist/slaver's morals. He doesn't have to think they *should* fight for it. Maybe he doesn't think that fighting for what you believe in is intrinsically moral and instead is moral only if you are fighting for what's right (in his mind). Perfectly internally consistent. Moral relativism is no handicap at all. Moral absolutists seem to have trouble with that idea.

    188. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      Except that the stakes are significantly higher. If your morality is different but not in conflict with mine, then yes, it's not appreciably different from arguing over ice cream flavors. But the comparison pointlessly trivializes the discussion. Relativistic morality is *not* like ice cream flavor preference because exercising your opinion of morality has a dramatic impact on others.

      Here, I'll trivialize it the other way. If there can be absolute morality, why can't there be absolute superiority of ice cream flavors? If a person can be wrong, in the absolute sense, for thinking that it is ok to steal, then why can't they be wrong, in the absolute sense, for thinking that chocolate is better than vanilla?

      Moral relativism is about observing things the *way they are*. You may think it's important for their to be some absolute authority on right and wrong, and you may really want there to be one, but there isn't one any more than there's some absolute right answer to the best ice cream flavor (even if, for some strange reason, you really wanted to believe there was). The difference is that the question of right and wrong *matters* to people, and it matters to them what we do about it. But whether or not it matters doesn't change the fundamental principle.

    189. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      Basically, you believe that, even though there is nothing inherently superior in your moral code, you should fight and kill people to prevent them from fighting and killing people in ways that violate your moral code. I find such a moral code repugnant. You don't want to fight and kill people because your moral code is superior, but just because they don't follow your code.,

      Inherently superior? I mean, you're neglecting that he *does* firmly believe his moral code is superior. He *does* find more merit with it. He just recognizes that there is no absolute authority to look to that will affirm his belief. You don't have to believe a competing morality is "just as good" as yours in order to be a moral relativist. You just have to accept that there's no objective standard that proves yours to be better.

      If there is no absolute moral code, there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong", there is just what I prefer.

      Bollocks. There is such a thing as right and wrong, it's just a matter of opinion rather than fact. That's like saying that if there's no absolute direction for gravity there is no such thing as "up" or "down". Right and wrong are defined relative to your moral beliefs, which are subjective. But then again, your moral beliefs are subjective too. You just don't believe they are.

      The gravitas of a moral belief doesn't come from whether it is relative or absolute. It comes from how much it matters to you. Does it bother you that you don't believe in an absolutely correct answer for which ice cream flavor is the best? It certainly doesn't appear to. Why not? Presumably because it's a question that ultimately doesn't matter to you, because it doesn't impact you tremendously. Well make no mistake, a moral relativist such as myself cares a lot about how people answer moral questions. I also can feel that people are right or wrong in their answers. In principle, I can do everything the absolutist can do and more because I am not hung up on trying to determine the indeterminable or reason the unreasonable (i.e. whether something is *intrinsically* moral or not). If I find something that shakes my moral foundation, I can adapt much more quickly to the new perspective, because I don't have to first wrestle with some ridiculous notion of whether something is still moral despite no longer *seeming* moral (or still immoral despite no longer seeming immoral). It's impossible to determine if something is absolutely moral, so belief in moral absolutism only makes one resistant to new ideas.

    190. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      From where do humans derive their rights--scientifically-speaking? You can claim that humans have inalienable rights derived from God, but that's not a scientific proposition. Rationally-speaking, humans have the rights they have granted themselves. Humans can also grant whatever rights they choose to the other animals under their control. It's a choice, so there's nothing crazy about saying all animals ought to have the same rights.

      This is the age old question now, isn't it? I don't have an answer really. I think human rights come from evolution, and we pretty much, mostly, live as if they were true (depending on what we define as human at the time, which is cultural). There is no exterior force binding them, and no real, non-social, consequences for not following them.

      Animals don't get this consideration, since there was no pressure for us to evolve the same innate moral structures. Their rights are wholly socially derived. What I was stated was my take on it, it is as correct as any other barring some other, extra-human source that rights and morals flow from.

      Babies get the rights because of evolution too, it is advantageous to treat our babies well.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    191. Re:PETA by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      I don't see why they need to "defend their beliefs." They have them. Others disagree.

      For the same reason some people defended slaves against slavers, oppressed women, and so on. It matters not that my examples are all about humans and theirs are about animals. In their belief, animals should have certain rights they have not today, much like slaves were once considered just animals or soulless people, and women just property. By the way, in some places, this still seems to be true.

      Once ethical people see this kind of problem, they can't just sit down in their opinions and let others carry on. To them, it's not a matter of personal option because there's a "helpless victim" involved.

      Trying to convince you may be annoying to you, but while you're just annoyed, an uncountable number of animals are suffering and dying for questionable reasons. To me, any group defending this type of ideology (fight violence against the helpless) has a valid right to bother people to try to change things.

      If it works or not, that's another subject. Which, by the way, was the subject we were talking before you skipped it by questioning its merit.

      Maybe now the merit is clarified so it won't keep you from proposing an alternative strategy for them to reach their goal while bothering you less?

      So why bother with it, when you could be doing real good (by their standard of goodness) with a focus on action (say, addressing the problems in their shelters) rather than activism?

      I can only guess that they don't have the same standard of goodness you think they have, so that such "problems" would not be as ethically wrong as letting people carry on with their comfortable habits.

      Finally, maybe they are all nut cases. Maybe they're extremists. Maybe they're just desperate to see some change. In any case, as others pointed out, it would be nice of people, although obviously nobody is obliged by law, to analyze the message behind the messenger's tactics. Maybe they'll find it worth some research that will convince them of some unjustified cruelty, or maybe animals will always be just too strange to them to care.

      Some people are trying, and I'm glad they exist, because when I compare the alternatives between annoyance (right belief: at least they tried to change; or wrong belief: so what? We do can live without at least some of the cruelty) with doing nothing (right or wrong belief, nothing changed, nobody tried) I find the annoyance the least of evils.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    192. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the presence of some metaphysical super-being who gives everything meaning, pretty much nothing could be said to be important depending on the scale your looking at.

      That's my point. Nothing has some artificial level of importance assigned to it.

      Instead of important, I would claim that everything is universally insignificant.

      This is exactly what I'm claiming.

      I'm not going to go arguing that that single atom of cesium over there (I can see you lurking in the corner, scheming) is my equal

      You don't have to, but just known that your opinion isn't fact. There is no factual level of important to your life or anything else's life. At this point, it's all opinion.

      If Lassie is as meaningless as me, then who really cares what happens to her?

      As far as I know, I never once mentioned anything about personal opinion.

      I don't find this as a good ground work for generating a system of much of anything.

      I find it as a good ground work for thinking logically and not having some arbitrary importance assigned to you where none exists. Our lives matter to us, not the universe. They ultimately hold no meaning, even if we believe otherwise.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    193. Re:PETA by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, if I thought that it was evil to eat chocolate you wouldn't think I was crazy? If you don't believe that there is an absolute moral code than I think you are crazy to still think that morals are important.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    194. Re:PETA by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      So, if I thought that it was evil to eat chocolate you wouldn't think I was crazy?

      Presumably I agree with you, in general, about the answers to most moral questions. So sure, I'd think it was awfully bizarre of you to ascribe such importance to the eating of chocolate, particularly since I've come to expect certain common ground from other human beings. But imagine instead, if you had said you thought it was evil to eat humans. If we put certain restrictions on that, like that they have to be humans who consented and later died of natural causes, I still wouldn't blink an eye if you expressed such an opinion. In principle, it's not any different, it just causes immediate revulsion in most human beings.

      And that's where I think all morality ultimately comes from. We have a feeling of what is right and wrong that has come from a long evolutionary history that has conditioned our behavior to be social, cooperative animals. But the universe doesn't care about one human being killing another any more than it cares about a human being eating a cocoa bean.

      If you don't believe that there is an absolute moral code than I think you are crazy to still think that morals are important.

      Do you believe that there are absolute right and wrong feelings? If, for example, you were to experience a familial loss, you and I would experience different feelings. I would feel sympathy for you, but you would feel pain. Even if we experienced completely analogous events, our feelings would likely be different. Is one feeling right and another one wrong? And if there is no right or wrong feeling, does that mean feelings aren't important?

      Morals are like feelings to me. I *feel* that it is wrong to hurt other people, to cheat them, or to steal from them. I don't feel that it is wrong to eat chocolate ice cream, and it is difficult for me to relate to the idea that anyone would feel that way, but I can't think of a single thing that makes it *fundamentally* different. The things that matter to us are always subjective. The reason this can appear absolute is that we feel very strongly and we mostly tend to agree... hardly surprising since we're so similar.... and many of the things we consider morally right have been important to the survival of our species.

    195. Re:PETA by donscarletti · · Score: 1

      PETA holds these truths to be self-evident, that all creatures are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    196. Re:PETA by shnull · · Score: 0

      i agree that most of them are hippiecrites with incredible vegan powers but i dont see why humans should get more rights than animals and the excess population can't be eaten, who really IS the destructive force on this planet?

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
    197. Re:PETA by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      You still don't seem to understand.

      Just because Cats and Dogs live on the streets doesn't mean they are all suffering. Capturing them and killing them is unethical and cruel when they could have been out happily living their lives as animals.

      The GGP thinks that all strays are suicidal and would rather a human kill them. He thinks this isn't cruel because the animal wanted it. Is totally stupid reasoning for the reasons i've already given.

    198. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      I've heard that sprouted (raw) grains and beans contain enzymes which aid in digestion of the grains and beans.

      It stands to reason. The kernel contains concentrated energy to keep the plant alive until it’s put out enough roots and leaves to collect its own water and nutrients. It must by definition also contain all of the necessary enzymes to break that complex carbohydrate back down to ATP so it can use it.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    199. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Your use of evolution here sounds kinda sounds like a "God of the gaps". You mean "evolution" in the sense of genetic mutation and natural selection? In that case, how would you explain the vastly differing moralities of various cultures? In some cultures, canibalism is intrinsic, in others it's taboo.

      Still, for the sake of argument, if morals are evolutionary in origin, I can claim that, just as we have (largely) evolved past slavery, the next step in our moral evolution is to transcend cruelty to and callous domination of other animal species.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    200. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Think of the poor, oppressed jellyfish!! Oh, the humanity!

      Still, if the Hindu conception of the soul is correct, then all souls *are* equal (at least qualitatively), though the bodies they inhabit may have vastly differing capabilities.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    201. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the explanation!

      And the heat of cooking would tend to destroy those enzymes, no?

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    202. Re:PETA by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the heat of cooking is a substitute for the natural enzymes and it also tends to destroy them in the process. It’s quicker to use heat, though, than letting the enzymes do their work.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    203. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Good to know. I definitely prefer my lentils cooked in soup in the winter-time, though I love my sprouted lentils when it's warmer.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    204. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Your use of evolution here sounds kinda sounds like a "God of the gaps". You mean "evolution" in the sense of genetic mutation and natural selection? In that case, how would you explain the vastly differing moralities of various cultures? In some cultures, canibalism is intrinsic, in others it's taboo.

      Moving a bit off topic here, but I'll bite. Please don't think I take anything I state here as gospel truth, this is just a hypothesis I play with to help explain why there seems to be actual ethics in the real world (beyond prescriptive academic philosophy) while there is no apparent source of these ethics (yes, I'm an atheist). Every culture has some form of ethical or moral system, and generally these systems have more in common than not.

      Being that humans are, and evolved as, group animals it makes sense for there to be pressure on group cohesion and cooperation, since the survival of individuals depends, on part, the health of group. This pressure would lead to certain innate traits, or more precisely instincts that further group cohesion. Some of these traits are uniquely human, and some continued on from previous primate iterations (notice the commonalities within social structures of divergent primate groups).

      This ethical instinct would be based on something (or at least ascribed to) like empathy, or theory of mind; the ability to see ourselves in others. This would lead to something like the golden rule.

      Basically: If human, then treat as oneself. The interesting bit is the "if human" part of the syllogism, since that helps explain how we have some flavor of ethics universally, but still can commit great atrocities. What we define as human, or human like varies with culture. Black people weren't human for a time, and neither were Jews or women (who still aren't in many cultures considered fully human), for example, and thus were not part of the formula.

      The "treat as oneself" proposition is a bit vague and wobbly, I admit, and I'm sure there are further caveats and sub-rules that I'm missing. But it seems like a rough approximation. The caveats and sub-rules could possibly be called "rights". Rights could never be universal, in this context, sadly, but I fear they really aren't, since I have never seen a convincing argument towards universal, a priori, rights.

      There are many variations by culture since the evolutionary framework only provides us with a hard and fast default, which can be somewhat overwritten by cultural conditioning and personal circumstances, it becomes more and more apt at larger aggregate levels though.

      From this flows prescriptive ethics (thou shall not...), it doesn't force them, it merely guides them.

      Cannibalism isn't really a problem, most cultures who practice it do so and remain within the confines of the syllogism. They don't go out and eat their friends and family willy-nilly, it generally is ritualized and an aspect of tribal warfare or mourning. Why do we find it repellent, and other cultures don't? There are many different explanations; our cultural roots (in the Judea-Christian ethos) may differ from those who do, or there may be further pressure not to engage in certain taboos (such as incest, which leads to genetic nastiness). Cannabalism can spread nasty prion diseases (kuru, historically), meaning there may be larger cultural and traditional forces against it, or even another slight evolutionary imperative.

      Still, for the sake of argument, if morals are evolutionary in origin, I can claim that, just as we have (largely) evolved past slavery, the next step in our moral evolution is to transcend cruelty to and callous domination of other animal species.

      If they are evolutionary, then you can't claim that, either of those statements. We didn't genetically evolve past slavery, we just culturally reclassified black people (or poor people, or whoeever) as being equally human with us, and thus entitled to the same rights and ethical choices as us. We can, tomorrow, decide that black peopl

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    205. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, I never once mentioned anything about personal opinion.

      So basically this is a completely useless line of thought. I hardly think that thinking "Oh dear everything is meaningless" is useful. If personal opinions doesn't matter (which it doesn't in the abstract grand picture) it isn't very useful for the matter we are discussing.

      It isn't even good for thinking rationally, since using "everything is meaningless on some scales" is pretty much useless. You can't live by that. It has its place, I suppose, in philosophy and science, but not in what we are talking about, namely, assigning importance. We are talking about what level of rights to prescribe to other things, so saying "everything is meaningless" doesn't really add to the discussion. And ultimately we HAVE TO assign level of importance to things, since we really do live down here, at the human scale.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    206. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I hardly think that thinking "Oh dear everything is meaningless" is useful.

      It doesn't matter if you think that it's useful or not. My point was that ultimately everything has the same value, nothing more. If you like life or think you're more important than something, that's nice, but your level of perceived importance isn't a fact.

      It isn't even good for thinking rationally

      Except that it makes sense.

      You can't live by that.

      Yes, you can. It's fairly easy to just accept that your opinion isn't absolute fact.

      We are talking about what level of rights to prescribe to other things, so saying "everything is meaningless" doesn't really add to the discussion.

      I originally responded to a single thing that you said:

      Animals are not little people.

      I wasn't sure what you meant by that, so I just wanted to see if you felt that humans had some sort of ultimate importance. I never mentioned anything about animal rights or anything like it.

      And ultimately we HAVE TO assign level of importance to things

      That's nice, but all I'm saying is that this perceived importance isn't fact. That's all.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    207. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      That's nice, but all I'm saying is that this perceived importance isn't fact. That's all.

      Which is nice, but a bit useless. Thats my point, it might be ultimately true, but it is completely useless.

      Yes, you can. It's fairly easy to just accept that your opinion isn't absolute fact.

      This is pretty much obvious, but there are probably much more... interesting... reminders that you are pretty much completely fallible.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    208. Re:PETA by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Thats my point, it might be ultimately true, but it is completely useless.

      The only reason I stated it in the first place was in response to one of your comments. It's not useless in the context of animal rights because it basically states that all things are equal in the first place (so people can't claim that humans have some sort of natural importance over everything else). But, whatever.

      This is pretty much obvious, but there are probably much more... interesting... reminders that you are pretty much completely fallible.

      Huh?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    209. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1
      Wow!! An insightful, cogent response. I would have been happy with a snappy one-liner. Of course, I can't just respond with a one-liner now.

      Please don't think I take anything I state here as gospel truth, this is just a hypothesis I play with to help explain why there seems to be actual ethics in the real world (beyond prescriptive academic philosophy) while there is no apparent source of these ethics (yes, I'm an atheist).

      No danger of that here. There are few things I take as gospel truths and this is just an informal discussion. As for theism, I wish I could say I believe in God, but it's more like I *want* to believe in God and often operate under the assumption that there is a God. But that's besides the point (which is off-topic to begin with :).

      Some of these traits are uniquely human, and some continued on from previous primate iterations (notice the commonalities within social structures of divergent primate groups).

      Your hypothesis seems perfectly tenable. Since you bring up other primates, the question arises (again?) how we define "human". Chimpanzees are 96-99% genetically identical to humans. According to this article, Chimpanzees are more genetically similar to humans than various species of yeast are to one another. Recent research indicates that there are non-human animals which are self-aware to some degree.

      What we define as human, or human like varies with culture. Black people weren't human for a time, and neither were Jews or women (who still aren't in many cultures considered fully human), for example, and thus were not part of the formula.

      Exactly. The demarcation line is not at all immovable. So, why not err on the side of caution? Of course, that's a personal choice (albeit influenced by our cultural progress).

      There are many variations by culture since the evolutionary framework only provides us with a hard and fast default, which can be somewhat overwritten by cultural conditioning and personal circumstances, it becomes more and more apt at larger aggregate levels though.

      Is culture evolutionary as well?

      Cannabalism can spread nasty prion diseases (kuru, historically), meaning there may be larger cultural and traditional forces against it, or even another slight evolutionary imperative.

      So can eating non-human animals. Some folks suspect that vCJD (Mad Cow Disease) is much more prevalent than meat industry stakeholders want (or will allow) us to believe. Since it takes so long for symptoms of the disease to manifest, it's hard to know. Some have suggested that, perhaps, Alzheimer's is also prion-related.

      We didn't genetically evolve past slavery, we just culturally reclassified black people (or poor people, or whoeever) as being equally human with us, and thus entitled to the same rights and ethical choices as us.

      Well, yes. Time has shown that there's more to evolution than simple genetic mutation/natural selection. *Choices* do play a role. Much of human "evolution" in the past 10,000 years have been a product more of adaptation to circumstances and our lifestyle choices than pure survival. More and more evidence is revealing that many of our former assumptions about other animal species (e.g. that they are essentially automatons driven by instinct) are not valid.

      The problem is that animals are not human, and thus face an uphill battle.

      Not human by our current definition. We could (once again) redefine what it means to be human.

      The only alternative I can see is that ethics and rights are completely socially derived, and thus completely transient and arbitrary.

      It's a scary thought, but it might be so. Anyways, I thank you for your though-provoking response. I wish my own response was more detailed and reasoned, but this is the best I can do at the moment. I have way more questions than answers. Cheers!! --MM

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    210. Re:PETA by Omestes · · Score: 1

      ...how we define "human". Chimpanzees are 96-99% genetically identical to humans ...Recent research indicates that there are non-human animals which are self-aware to some degree.

      This is a question I won't even presume to try to answer. I have no clue. Its like the old obscenity cliche; "I know it when I see it". Not a useful answer, but one that has a bit of subjective weight.

      The problem of non-human intelligence is a bit intractable. We measure and define intelligence by its manifestation through us. This makes it very hard to move it beyond our own species. That was the topic of my psychology capstone, and after all the huge amount of effort, wrangling, and research I'm was as ignorant as when I started. Not only is it almost impossible to generalize intelligence outside of our own (and closely related) species, but it is almost impossible to define "intelligence" itself. Its just another "I know it when I see it" subjective judgement, for the most part.

      Is culture evolutionary as well?

      Culture itself is, as in the urge to make it and participate in it. Culture in-itself might be, along non-genetic (memetic, as trite as that sounds these days) lines. I'm not sure if it is, it runs along the normal evolutionary rules, there seems to be a lot of arbitrary, or even destructive, elements within various cultures.

      So can eating non-human animals.

      It isn't as prevalent as in cannibalism though, and might be mostly the product of our own stupid modern agricultural choices (feeding animals dead animals).

      Not human by our current definition. We could (once again) redefine what it means to be human.

      No argument there. Many people already have. It seems the historical trend of rights is to become more inclusive, so who knows. That is probably a big fallacy, but it feels right. For what its worth.

      I have way more questions than answers.

      Not a bad state of affairs, that!

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    211. Re:Peta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, parent was correct, sometimes supplements just don't do the trick ( and seriously, why should someone fork out the extra money for something they can get with a balanced diet?).

      You even manage to disregard the fact that many people have complex dietary requirements, don't have access to stores that sell special supplements or have lifestyles that require much more nutrition than a vegan diet can provide.

      Your attitude is exactly why many people shy away from vegetarianism, never mind veganism so please, do us all a favour and STFU.

    212. Re:PETA by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      luckily pets aren't people(cats excepted of course).
      My dog is free to go any time he wants, we don't lock him up.
      He could be up and away at a moments notice if he wanted yet every chance he gets he's in the door and curling up around our feet or crawling up on our laps.

    213. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Surely you've heard of the phenomenon where kidnap victims frequently come to identify with and sympathize with their captors? When an animal has been raised to be almost completely dependent upon a "master", there's not much chance of them running off into the wild, is there?

      It's not a black-and-white issue for me. I can certainly see the beauty of responsible, loving animal stewardship, but I can also see the inherant inequities and injustice. By was of disclosure, we have three cats at home (though they were brought there by a former house-mate who's since moved to a place that doesn't allow pets) and I recently bought my daughter a hamster after much fretting and soul-searching.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    214. Re:PETA by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      "By way of disclosure"

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
  4. We all know PETA is crazy by Dracos · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They'll attempt to demonize any mention of carnivorous behavior, often without a complete grasp of what they are attacking-- as seen here. A boy with no skin must be countered with a lump of tofu? Obviously no one there actually played Super Meat Boy.

    PETA can't rightfully preach about animal rights while euthanizing tens of thousands of unwanted pets every year. Hypocrisy at its finest.

    1. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a Vegan, I'm always interested when these issues come up on my usual websites. I, like many of the other Animal Rights people here visit Slashdot, Ars, Engadget, Gizmodo etc daily, we dont cause any fuss, but when these "stories" arise, "ohhhhh, they're hypocrites", or "I'm gonna have me a big steak, yummy mc yum yums!!!111!!!" are the usual posts.

      I'm also quite against PETA, they have a New Welfarist approach, I despise how they have Women pose and RE promoting Veganism, "screw the principle" http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ingrid-newkirk-on-principled-veganism-screw-the-principle/

      "PETA can't rightfully preach about animal rights while euthanizing tens of thousands of unwanted pets every year. Hypocrisy at its finest.".

      They can "preach" Animal Rights while also practising euthanasia you realise? Just as I love being alive, but were I to have Cancer such as others in my family, I could well imagine rather being dead, than to die slowly over the months. Now, I much prefer the idea of No Kill shelters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-kill_shelter , I dont know how practical they are in real life. I've had family members who've volunteered with the SPCA etc, I myself have no hands on experience of this kind.

      I agree with practically NOTHING coming from PETA, I think it must obviously be wrong that they "put to sleep" so many animals each year.

      However, please dont write off Animal Rights because of PETA's actions.

      http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ and these shows http://bit.ly/veganpodcastinfo were useful for me.

      I also promote Veganism through videos of my Chicken Friends (such as "A Day in the Life..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj8gL8lj-Yg ), and through my show http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    2. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      As a Vegan, I'm always interested when these issues come up on my usual websites.

      Hey, maybe you can give your personal opinion, if you've thought about it. What do you think should happen to animals that currently earn their living by being eaten by humans, like pigs? Should humans stop breeding them and let them go extinct? Should they be preserved in some kind of "domesticated animal zoos" in small numbers, so they could earn their upkeep by playing with kids or whatever? What should happen to them?

      I personally find eating ethically raised animals just fine morally. The animal gets to live very comfortable (compared to how a wild animal has to live) life fed by humans, and then it gets killed by human to pay for all the food and shelter it received. Actually I find that much more ethical, than hunting, even though hunting is more "natural". Of course then it becomes a question of what kind of conditions the animal should have, so we can consider it's life and death summed together is better than it having never existed... And in practical terms it also becomes question of price of the meat, but then why not just eat less meat and more veggies, if meat is more expensive.

    3. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by c · · Score: 1

      > PETA can't rightfully preach about animal rights while
      > euthanizing tens of thousands of unwanted pets every
      > year. Hypocrisy at its finest.

      Not at all. Animal rights groups are strongly against the ownership of animals. Euthanizing instead of running an effective adoption program is actually seen as the lesser evil. They obviously don't connect those dots in their public fund raising materials...

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      Log in or piss off.
    4. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by tbannist · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that if you skip the "right to life", no other rights really matter*.

      * Excepting, of course, the right of your descendants to profit from your copyrights for at least 50 years after your death, which will only rarely come into effect in the animal kingdom.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    5. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by c · · Score: 1

      > I think the point is that if you skip the
      > "right to life", no other rights really matter*.

      Nature doesn't recognize any "right to life". For the vast majority of creatures, it's more like "a right to live a short, nasty life constantly running and hiding in fear, only to die starving and/or screaming".

      Animal rights see the "right to not be property" as implying a kind of "right to life". That is, if you stop treating them as property, then you can't just go around killing them on a whim. I guess that's a convenient way to around the whole debate about "but then doesn't the bunny have a right not to get eaten by the lion?" dilemma.

      Personally, I like my critters way too much to condemn then to either a natural "life" or euthanasia. I'm evil that way...

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      Log in or piss off.
    6. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure how euthanizing animals is any more consistent with PETA's proclaimed ideals than owning an animal. What gives PETA the right to decide that an animal should die? If they were consistent, they would just release the animals. By euthanizing the animals, they are acting as if they own them.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      Now, I much prefer the idea of No Kill shelters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-kill_shelter , I dont know how practical they are in real life.

      No-kill shelters are good and all, but they generally only accept animals with a high probability of being adopted. A no-kill shelter isn't going to take the three-legged, one-eye pit bull with a history of attacking people. That dog is probably gonna end up in a high-kill shelter.

      I don't know much about PETA's shelters other than they have a reputation for killing more animals than most shelters. It could be because they take in animals that are essentially un-adoptable and only have the resources to keep them alive for so long before they have to be euthanized. Or maybe they just do a shitty job of running the shelters, I don't know.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    8. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by realityimpaired · · Score: 2

      I need to preface this by saying that I have absolutely nothing against vegans, especially when their viewpoint is presented logically and clearly and calmly, as you have.

      I have issues, however, when some vegans decide to claim the moral high ground over me, because I continue to eat meat. Let alone when they try to evangelise me. And I realize, baby with the bathwater. It's not fair to lump all vegans together in the same boat in the same way that it's not fair to lump all the Christians in the same boat: many, if not most of them just want to live their life in peace, and in keeping with what they consider ethical. It's just that a few wackjobs manage to mess it up for the rest of the world. In this case, we're talking about PETA, and they're a perfect example.

      That said, some people simply don't have a metabolism that allows them to get proper nutrition from a vegetarian lifestyle. I'm one of them. My body needs amino acids that I simply can't get from anything other than red meat (and I have food allergies to keep in mind). Now I don't eat red meat that often... in fact, I really only eat meat once or twice a week at all (including fish), but I would risk serious health problems if I were to stop eating meat entirely. I do hope that when you started being a vegan, you had tests done to make sure that you were/are getting the nutrition you need to be healthy, as it could be years before you really notice or are at risk from something like a calcium deficiency. (bad example, because brocoli and other dark green vegetables are loaded with the stuff).

      As for PETA itself, they're nuts. I have met exactly one person who supports PETA that isn't nuts. I keep pets: I have 2 cats and a dog. One of the cats just showed up at my door one day as a stray... we fed him when he'd take it from us, but he was quite happily living as feral and hunting his own food. He'd just decided that our house was a good place to declare as his territory, and we were OK with that. For about 6 months, there wasn't any change in our routine... he'd come knocking from time to time for food, but otherwise he'd be happy to hunt mice, voles, chipmunks, squirrels, and the occasional bird on our property; then one day in December, it was about -35 degrees outside, we convinced him to come inside. He bolted for the basement, and we didn't see him for 3 days, but now, years later, he's part of the family. PETA probably would have put him to sleep, but he's such a gentle and affectionate animal, I can't believe he was once feral. The other two animals we share our home with came from the humane society, and they were both rescues. If you listen to the hardline PETA folks, we're cruel to our pets, because we keep them inside when they're meant to be free, but I think the PETA folks are nuts. I also think that it would be downright cruel to turn the cats out, or the dog for that matter, when I know that a house cat probably couldn't survive a Canadian winter outside, not when it gets down to -40'C some nights (and that's before you count in the wind chill, I've experienced -60'C including the wind chill).

    9. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No-kill shelters are the epitome of cruelty and are not really very helpful to the community. My wife runs an animal shelter and I volunteer a lot there. It's not a no-kill but they have pretty strict rules on when animals can be put down. The majority of the animals that come in are not adoptable. They're either very sick, injured, or aggressive. You cannot place a dog in a home if it bites, and feral cats take so much work to tame that there simply isn't the people nor resources to do it with all of them.

      No kill shelters can only operate that way if they're extremely selective about what animals they take in. They cannot take in any animal that cannot be re-homed, which means they have to turn away the majority of animals that people try and bring in. They also end up with animals that live in cages for years upon years which is unbelievably cruel. When my wife took over there were animals there that had been in cages for over 5 years. Some of these animals are no longer adoptable. When outside the cage they freak out because they've been confined for so long. People take them home then in a day or two bring them right back.

    10. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by c · · Score: 1

      > By euthanizing the animals, they are acting as if they own them.

      . This thread is called "We all know PETA is crazy". By accepting animals into the shelter, they're explicitly taking ownership of them, as property. That's the simplest legal way they can adopt or kill. For PETA to follow their principles for animal rights, they'd have to not operate an animal shelter/slaughterhouse.

      I don't really know why they bother. I can only assume it's some sort of PR thing, which they can point at and say "see, we save animals".

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      Log in or piss off.
    11. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by c · · Score: 1

      > Some of these animals are no longer adoptable. When outside
      > the cage they freak out because they've been confined for so
      > long. People take them home then in a day or two bring them right back.

      They are adoptable, just not to the kind of person that's going to give up on a dog after one or two days. That's more of a education (the new owners, not the dog) and a screening problem, and unfortunately shelters don't really have the time, people, or expertise to match dogs to the right people. It takes an average dog weeks to settle in after even a short shelter experience. For long term inmates, or abuse cases... months, and they'll probably never be completely normal.

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      Log in or piss off.
    12. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The reason I replied to you was because you post read to me as saying that PETA was not hypocritical for preaching about animal rights "while euthanizing tens of thousands of pets every year". Here you are saying that PETA is hypocritical for preaching about animal rights and then running animal shelters (where they are explicitly taking owneership of animals).
      I was merely pointing out that PETA was being hypocritical by euthanizing animals, I hadn't realized that you were saying that the hypocrisy actually happened when they accepted the animals into the shelter in the first place.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      Sorry to barge in; I agree with your post for the most part, but...

      That said, some people simply don't have a metabolism that allows them to get proper nutrition from a vegetarian lifestyle.

      How do they know that? I'm sure there are some people like that (having your condition), but probably very few.

      I do hope that when you started being a vegan, you had tests done to make sure that you were/are getting the nutrition you need to be healthy, as it could be years before you really notice or are at risk from something

      This sounds a little paranoid to me. I'm sure there are a lot of irresponsible or ignorant or hasty people who could get unwell if they radically changed their diet without proper knowledge, but other than that, I don't quite get what the risk might be. Do people get their babies tested before giving them meat? Also, keep in mind that meat hasn't been abundant for long enough time for us to have adapted to its indispensable place in our diet.

      I'll reflect your view actually. I don't have any problems with meat eaters (or Christians for that matter), but although I am polite most of the time, I get a tingling sensation in my stomach when someone tells me that I managed to quit eating meat because I didn't like its taste in the first place. Or my body didn't need it anyway. Yeah, I must be one of the lucky ones... This kind of attitude is the meat eaters' unknowing acceptance of a moral high ground on the vegetarians' side and one of the factors that give rise to an asymmetry. Now, if you don't care about the animals' lives, say so! Hold your head up! Tell that morality is relative! Everyone has the right to their values. Understandably there are few people on both sides that think this way...

    14. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by ekgringo · · Score: 1

      The no-kill shelter where I got my dog had a pit bull that had been shot, paralyzing it's rear legs. It had a little wheeled sling that it could be placed into so that it can pull itself around via it's two front legs. While I don't know if it had a history of attacking people, it seemed to generate a lot of sympathy from the patrons.

    15. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      Species extinction, value of potential life, value of actual life and suffering are four different subjects. For instance, the fact that one values life doesn't mean that she wouldn't want a species to go extinct. Most animals we raise are our designs anyway.

      I guess your case is about decreasing suffering. I myself have never gotten the reason why I should care about suffering more than life. If I was presented with two options, living in a cell or dying, I would choose living. Why don't I think the same way when it comes to another living being? It's more about how human brain works than moral thought. I automatically feel bad when I see/imagine somebody else suffering but caring about their higher mental facilities requires intention. But what if I don't care about human lives either? Then would have the right to kill suffering people? Anyway, this is my line of reasoning, presented as an example.

      I'll move along now...

    16. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      ...and only have the resources to keep them alive for so long before they have to be euthanized.

      One of the stories that first brought this to light was about a family that gave their animal to PETA to have it adopted, and after being assured that it would be adopted not killed, they decided to go ahead with it.

      PETA arrived with a van, and took the animal to the van, but the family changed their mind before the van had even left the property, only to find out that the PETA representatives had already killed the animal before even pulling out of their driveway.

      At least some PETA reps are not attempting to hold animals at all.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    17. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      I really didn't get what you were trying to say above, or if you were arguing for or against something, but one comment:

      But what if I don't care about human lives either? Then would have the right to kill suffering people?

      "Rights" are a human invention, mostly dictated by the society. And answer to this specific question in almost all societies is: "the question is a non-sequitur, caring or not caring doesn't affect what rights somebody has".

    18. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Kitsune+Inari · · Score: 1

      please dont write off Animal Rights because of PETA's actions.

      This troper thinks that you might be confusing animal welfare groups with animal rights groups. Animal Welfare groups are sane associations that care about animals and their well being. Animal Rights and Animal Liberation groups are wingnuts.

    19. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      "the question is a non-sequitur, caring or not caring doesn't affect what rights somebody has".

      Well of course it affects (though it sucks as an explanation). Why is your view of animal rights focused on suffering and not right to live? Because you care about one and not the other. If you are the majority, then it gives rise to "rights" in the sense you use.

      If I am to state my opinion, I would say that if we are to bestow rights to non-human animals, why base them on our irrational feelings and not extend human values towards animals? I can guarantee you that the animal wants to live more than it is displeased by suffering. Pleasure/suffering have no meaning if your will does not matter. etc. etc.

    20. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But OP wasn't attack Animal Rights Activists. No one in this thread is. They're attacking PETA.

    21. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      I'll answer your question seriously, although I found it shocking!

      "earn their living"? Do you "earn your keep" by paying me for allowing you to live? Why would other animals? What gives us any more right to harm another, human or nonhuman, any more than I'd have the right to invade another country, kill all the humans (and nonhumans) there?

      I use this quote as my email signature

      ""We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." ~Henry Beston"

      I found it on Earthlings, which is a very graphic documentary about how we treat other animals. It contains slaughterhouse footage, farming, "fishing", killing whales, dolphins, vets, medical experiments etc. I never mention it, I use positive images FOR Veganism, rather than attacking nonVeganism, I'm not a fan of political attack ads. "That guys a sonnofabitch! Dont vote for him!..."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthlings_(documentary)

      Trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW3gunMSCu4

      Full video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142#

      Positive examples are much better. Once again, here is my YouTube account, with videos of the Chickens I care for :

      http://www.youtube.com/jaywontdart

      I dont think anyone seriously thinks "there'll be a magic puff of purple smoke enveloping the globe, that all armies will lower their guns, that all (animal) farmers will allow animals to live..."

      There are some ~7 Billion people alive, we kill over 56 Billion land animals each year, from the UN FOA 2007 statistics (PDF here http://bit.ly/56billion ). It simply wouldnt be possible to expect (much) more than 56 Billion animals to suddenly get homes with "only" ~7 Billion people alive! I also do not see large scale "releases" of animals to live free.

      Supply and Demand, as more Vegans promote Veganism, not "Happy Meat", Demand will decrease over time. How long will it take? Dont ask me! Realistically, certainly not in my lifetime? I like Tim Giers article, A Vegan World in 8 years

      http://timgier.com/2010/07/28/a-vegan-world-in-8-years/

      However long it will take, a decline in dead flesh, bodily secretions, skin etc bought, less will be "made", less animals forcibly impregnated, less animals born etc etc etc. If we are killing some 56 Billion now, that number would decrease to near zero. I'm sure there will always be people who kill other animals, just as there are people who kill other humans.

      Urkki, I would say there is absolutely no such thing as an "ethical" way to kill others. We kill animals, in the case of "meat", keep them alive to take their eggs, control their menstrual cycle, artificially impregnate them, kill the now unwanted child (through "inductions", I covered the topic here, http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/episode-37-hey-hey-hey-nah-nah-nah.html , links to news videos are at the bottom in Sources), for milk.

      And for what? Pleasure, and profit, both ours.

      I noticed the use of "it" to describe animals, my last blog post was about a McDonalds Facebook ad I saw, calling Chickens "It"

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    22. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      RE living vs suffering, you really picked up the heart of the issue. Welfare vs Rights.

      Animal Welfare is "we can do whatever the heck we like, we are God given masters of this world, they are ours, they are things to us, oh, but lets get it over with quickly, "humanely"".

      Animal Rights is that Animals have a base right not to be "ours", to be our things, our property. I have no more right to kill the next Dog I see than I would to break into your house and steal your television. There is of course, quite a difference between "property theft" and killing someone! However, under Animal Welfare, "as long as you do it humanely..."

      I remember months back a NZ news story, a Pacific Islander who came here and killed his family Dog, and cooked them. They were "hit on the head with a bat", and then their throat was cut. This caused a bloody outrage here, with people talking about killing the man responsible...seriously!

      The problem is violence, it has nothing to do with the solution. The SPCA and others "couldnt charge him, because he killed IT humanely...", getting hit on the head, to "knock you out", and then having your throat cut is "humane"? And legal? If you're a Dog, it sure is!

      Is it right? I would most certainly argue that it is not!

      I've seen Chickens, and other animals, in cages before, many have simply given up. They are broken animals. I know of people who rescue animals from these situations, and they talk of how the animals are, taking their first true steps...of seeing the sun... of touching grass, of being able to dig...I could never honestly imagine what it must be like for them.

      An Activist group has placed a wireless video camera at a "Chicken Farm", its streaming live to the internet. It breaks my heart to watch, as someone who looks after Chickens. I would feel awful if I left my little Friends in their coop for a single day, let alone their lives, to value them as "things". I've only ever watched the stream for a minute or so. Heres a blog post, with the link:

      http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/live-video-stream-of-chickens-on-farm.html

      If I were honestly in such conditions for all of my life, with absolutely no realistic chance of getting out, I think I'd rather be dead.

      My hope is that more people will be Vegan, to directly help others, and that they can look after former "farm animals" like my Chicken Friends: http://www.youtube.com/jaywontdart

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    23. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      hey Johnny5000, I dont feel like I can comment on Animal Shelters, I've always hated visiting them, my family have volunteered there, I think they would be better qualified to talk about them than I would. I've looked after many "unwanted" animals before, including my Chicken Friends now,

      http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/day-in-life-of-chicken-friend-video.html

      And I think its best if more people can look after these other animals.

      I hope you've seen the difference between an Abolitionist Vegan position, and PETA's, they do not speak "for the Animal advocates"! RE your signature, we are animals too ! Unless you are a Creationist? ;-)

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    24. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      hi!

      I'm glad you've heard of PETA, please dont assume they speak for ANYONE, such as Abolitionist Vegans ( http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ ) like myself! I dont think you have, you mentioned as such, just making it clear to others who may be reading this comment.

      No Animal Welfare, OR Animal Rights group I know of are talking about "throwing animals out onto the streets", all that I know of have always spoke about adopting unwanted nonhumans.

      I cannot speak on nutrition, I am not a health professional, although many of them also have crazy positions! Think of all the "fad diets" out there! ;-)

      I find it highly unlikely that anyone could NOT be Vegan. I've had tests done for Iron levels, and were fine. I am 23 years old, 1.95 Metres tall, up until a few months ago, I cycled 66 kilometres a day, and have a job moving furniture. I'm health :-) I would go so far to say that all Vegans I know would be healthier than "the median" New Zealander or American, they would tend to be thinner, more muscular, more active etc.

      That is certainly not a rule! Being Vegan does not instantly give you super powers, ha! http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/11/vegan-super-powers-video.html

      I know of many "rescued" cats and dogs, as you mentioned. I'm glad you've been able to care for other animals :-)

      If you're interested in hearing more from consistent, and sane *ACTUAL* Animal Rights people, please try these websites,

      http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ http://veganacious.com/

      And these podcasts http://nzveganpodcast.blogspot.com/ http://human-nonhuman.blogspot.com/

      Best wishes to you

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    25. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      Hey Kitsune Inari,

      PETA class themselves as "Animal Rights", possibly because its "cooler" ;-)

      They have whats called a "New Welfarist" approach, they are mostly Vegan (the staff), but promote NonVeganism, "Happy Meat" etc, because "Veganism is hard!". I strongly disagree with this, there is nothing difficult about being Vegan!

      I live at the bottom of the world, not bloody Los Angeles or Portland, some city filled with "hipsters" ;-)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invercargill

      Its easy to be Vegan here, its easy to be Vegan pretty much anywhere, granted, I guess it could be hard buying Soymilk if you lived in Antartica, not many local stores that carry it, I hear ;-) Then again, in such locations, not many convenience stores anywhere! They make/bring/are sent their own supplies!

      There is nothing "wingnuts" about Animal Rights.

      I invite you to visit http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/ , or my own Show, http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/

      Best wishes to you

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    26. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      I also don't get why people get outraged when a dog is killed while they are themselves eating animals that are raised and killed in more cruel ways.

      Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for pointing out the welfare vs. rights distinction.

    27. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PETA is to animal rights and vegetarianism
      as Microsoft is to technology

      We all wish they would go away, stop pissing people off, and stop making the rest of us look bad

    28. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I personally find eating ethically raised animals just fine morally.

      Just a simple question: would you find this okay if it were done to humans who were bred solely for this purpose, as long as they were treated nicely before they were slaughtered (just assume that eating humans is healthy in this example).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    29. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      I'll answer your question seriously, although I found it shocking!

      "earn their living"? Do you "earn your keep" by paying me for allowing you to live?

      You? Maybe, depends what you do, but most likely yes, a tiny bit and very indirectly, but yes! I earn my keep by doing work Effectively, through a complex web of intermediates, I pay farmers so they let me live. I also pay "my" police and military to let me live by not letting other people to kill me. I also pay those that for whatever reason can't support themselves, to avoid being killed by crime and and riots caused by hunger (I pay indirectly, but in some less fortunate parts of the world, people have to pay directly, or suffer the consequences).

      So yes, I do have to work, so I can pay in order to be allowed to live!

      Why would other animals? What gives us any more right to harm another, human or nonhuman, any more than I'd have the right to invade another country, kill all the humans (and nonhumans) there?

      Right to kill is basic right in nature, as evidenced in all levels, throughout the entire about 4 billion years of life. So you're asking the wrong question. The right question is to ask, why should this right be taken away in certain cases.

      In human societies, the answer is (in very general terms), that otherwise human society could not exist. Accepting human society implies giving up that right. Still some don't give it up, but then society reacts against that in different ways, and as a result there's some evolutionary pressure to instinctively give up that right in most cases.

      There are also good reasons to give up right to indiscriminately kill other living beings. There are legitimate, rational reasons to not eat a lot of meat. There are also good human reasons to treat animals well. However, you're saying we should completely give up the right of killing other creatures, a right that has 4 billion years of history. Why?

      Urkki, I would say there is absolutely no such thing as an "ethical" way to kill others.

      Sure there are. I don't think you believe it's unethical to kill a flatworm in human gut, and you probably agree that it's actually unethical (for a doctor for example) to refuse to kill it. Also, I don't think you find it unethical to kill a rabid dog, instead of letting it die of the rabies after spreading it some more. Etc. Lots of cases where killing is ethical. The line between ethical and unethical is arbitrary, and even you have to draw that line, no matter how much you'd like to believe there's no such line and all killing is unethical.

    30. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      The last resource I'd direct you to would again be the Abolitionist Approach website,

      http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

      A comment on this link, first FAQ questions kind of answers my original quesition:

      Question 1: Domestic animals, such as cows and pigs, and laboratory rats would not exist were it not for our bringing them into existence in the first place for our purposes. So is it not the case that we are free to treat them as our resources?

      However, I'd change the last sentence, the question, to be: "So is it not the case that we can treat them as our resources to some degree?"

      To that question, I can easily say that in my opinion yes, to some degree. World is not black and white.

    31. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      "the question is a non-sequitur, caring or not caring doesn't affect what rights somebody has".

      Well of course it affects (though it sucks as an explanation).

      I didn't quite understand how it can affects rights? In my view "rights" are given from outside (be it society or a god or whatever), and what individual thinks doesn't really affect their rights in any way. It may affect what they actually do, but it does not affect if they have a right to do that.

      Why is your view of animal rights focused on suffering and not right to live? Because you care about one and not the other.

      Eh? I care about both but my view is more focused on right to live, as in right to exist. If there's a choice between not existing at all, or living and then being killed, then in most cases (depending on circumstances), I'd choose living, even though it implies also suffering and death. But again, this is not absolute, depends on circumstances.

      If I am to state my opinion, I would say that if we are to bestow rights to non-human animals, why base them on our irrational feelings and not extend human values towards animals? I can guarantee you that the animal wants to live more than it is displeased by suffering. Pleasure/suffering have no meaning if your will does not matter. etc. etc.

      Domesticated animals depend on humans controlling their lives. If humans and human buildings vanished, most livestock and pets would die in short order (some individuals of some species would certainly survive and eventually evolve into new species adapted to life without humans).

      On the other hand, if those animals vanished instead, it would not affect humans that much overall. So it's clear where the control and responsibility is.

      Whatever we do about domesticated animals, it's a human decision. Even if we choose to let certain species of pets or livestock to go extinct so their exploitation may stop, that's a human decision to make/let that happen (especially as it would require some enforcing, as not all people would agree). It's also human decision to make life on earth less rich, if the extinct species is not replaced by another (also able to live that close to humans).

    32. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      I personally find eating ethically raised animals just fine morally.

      Just a simple question: would you find this okay if it were done to humans who were bred solely for this purpose, as long as they were treated nicely before they were slaughtered (just assume that eating humans is healthy in this example).

      If they agreed to it (without being deceived), then I guess I'd have to agree with it. Who am I to say they have no right to agree to that. However, anybody would have hard time to convince me that they (and their mothers) really did agree to it, because it's so much against human nature.

      Livestock are not able to really understand, nor able to make that level of decisions, and are mostly unable to live independent of humans, so different rules apply to them. Note, different, not "no rules".

      I'd probably put other great apes in same category as humans here, possibly also whales, but that's not something I need to deal with in my daily life. I've chosen to not eat whale when traveling though. It was sort of "I'm not sure about this, so I'll just have beef", partly emotional decision. But it's a blurry and arbitrary line, and I'm mostly fine with different eople drawing it at different places (though obviously there's other blurry and arbitrary line to what is absolutely not ok for anybody to do, in my opinion).

    33. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      If they agreed to it (without being deceived), then I guess I'd have to agree with it.

      How do you know the animals would agree to it if we could communicate with them? Just because they can't understand doesn't mean they want to be killed.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    34. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      If they agreed to it (without being deceived), then I guess I'd have to agree with it.

      How do you know the animals would agree to it if we could communicate with them? Just because they can't understand doesn't mean they want to be killed.

      Yeah, but that wanting to live happens on the instinctual level in (almost all) animals. It's not really the same thing than conscious will to live through understanding at least something about life and death. I mean, instincts and conscious thinking about life and death can be in conflict in humans, so clearly they're separate things.

      Instincts tell a lot of things, they're automated responses to maximize survival in the most common case of whatever situation. They're not a useful guideline for deciding what's ethical and what's not.

      Like, avoiding being stung is in the instincts of humans. It doesn't make it unethical to give injections to small children who can't understand the issue and just don't want a needle to be stuck into their flesh.

    35. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It's not really the same thing than conscious will to live through understanding at least something about life and death.

      Yet they still don't want to die. Neither do humans.

      They're not a useful guideline for deciding what's ethical and what's not.

      They sort of are if the thing doesn't want to die.

      It doesn't make it unethical to give injections to small children who can't understand the issue and just don't want a needle to be stuck into their flesh.

      There's an actual purpose in that, just like there's an actual purpose in eating other living beings (survival, human or not). Saying that instincts don't count (or that they only have instincts) isn't a very good argument, though.

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    36. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      Hi Urkki,

      Why would we believe it right to treat others as our "resources"? Thats a terrible way to describe one another, "you're my resource" ! Sounds like No Agenda :-)

      I dont think there can be shades of "what is property and who is another being", do you? Someone is either someONE or someTHING.

      Could we use an example from my second last blog post please? I commented here, as I've mentioned already, about the ad I saw calling Chickens "IT". How do you feel about the ad, in regards to the videos of my Chicken Friends also on the page? How would we define a time when its "right" for us to override any Right they have to NOT be property? http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/12/chicken-so-tasty-it-sells-itself.html Best wishes Urkki

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    37. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      "...through a complex web of intermediates, I pay farmers so they let me live. I also pay "my" police and military to let me live by not letting other people to kill me."

      Hmm, I'm not sure where you live in the world Urkki, but in my country, people are NOT put to death for being out of employment! ;-) I liked hearing of how you "pay off" government officials too! I think you'd be doing us all a favour for telling us know where you're talking about! It seems like the world is "black and white", of Nanny State vs Police State, I'll thank my lucky stars that I were born in a "socialist" nation, where my right to LIVE is recognised!

      I dont see it as a matter of "giving up a right", if we stop killing others. Was it such a big hassle to "give up the right to have slaves" in America? It probably was GREAT, for the Whites, to be in control of another, to class them as "below us", a "thing" or "possession".

      Quotes on Slavery comes in handy for these discussions, such as this quote http://quotesonslavery.org/they-know-nothing-of-the-bond-that-unites-the-master-and-servant/

      The site also features many more Pro Slavery quotes, or mentions of how African slaves are being sold at an auction, "in good condition" etc, its shocking to our modern ethics, but was regarded as "the done thing" during its time.

      I dont see myself as having "lost" any right by not killing others, be they human or nonhuman.

      RE Ethical Killing, hmm, I think we could debate semantics here. I agree with self defence, if someone, be they human or nonhuman, were attacking me, I'd defend myself. Rabid Dogs are not common in my area, do they come with the territory of nations where "you have to pay to live"? ;-)

      In such a highly hypothetical case, I'd protect myself, but would still not see a Dog, rabid or otherwise, as an "it". We are always someONE, never a someTHING.

      I understand that to be an integral part in how we deal with others, if we see them as "subhuman", an "it", or as our equal, think of war propaganda, about "dehumanising the enemy". In such cases, we "justify killing them"

      It was nice hearing from you again Urkki

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    38. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      Hi gox, you were the one to mention Welfare and Rights first :-)

      I'd find it hard to describe differences in LEVELS of "cruelty", but yes, I think Professor Gary Francione made a good argument for American sportsman Michael Vick, his Dogs who were forced to fight may well have had "better lives" than the animals we kill for "Hotdogs" etc while watching him play. His article really was *fantastic*:

      http://www.philly.com/dailynews/opinion/20070822_Were_all_Michael_Vick.html

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    39. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      In my view "rights" are given from outside (be it society or a god or whatever), and what individual thinks doesn't really affect their rights in any way.

      Initially, I was arguing about the coherence of those rights (given by whomever). But besides that, aren't rights "given" by society, statistics over the population?

      If there's a choice between not existing at all, or living and then being killed, then in most cases (depending on circumstances), I'd choose living, even though it implies also suffering and death.

      Interesting. Not a popular view I guess, but I don't have any argument against it. Then, for instance, you would have a duty of having four kids instead of one, at the expense of their life quality?

      Whatever we do about domesticated animals, it's a human decision.

      Well of course. Isn't it why we are discussing? :-)

    40. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      No Kill shelters are plenty practical, sort of. It's just that funding and getting adopters is just as big a problem for them as a normal animal shelter. The problem is, they reach capacity pretty easily, so you can't only have no kill shelters. There's one terrific upside to them, though: You don't feel bad if you go to one and don't adopt a pet, because it's not gonna get put down.

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      There is no -1 Disagree.
    41. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Note: below I'm not arguing for humans having "right" to mistreat animals, I'm arguing for humans having "right" to use other animals for purposes that involve having them killed or otherwise taken advantage of (just like animals in general use other animals like that).

      "...through a complex web of intermediates, I pay farmers so they let me live. I also pay "my" police and military to let me live by not letting other people to kill me."

      Hmm, I'm not sure where you live in the world Urkki, but in my country, people are NOT put to death for being out of employment! ;-) I liked hearing of how you "pay off" government officials too! I think you'd be doing us all a favour for telling us know where you're talking about! It seems like the world is "black and white", of Nanny State vs Police State, I'll thank my lucky stars that I were born in a "socialist" nation, where my right to LIVE is recognised!

      Unemployed, and those actually unable to work aren't put to death in my country either, but that doesn't remove the fact that they, too, have to pay money to the "farmer racket" to receive food. We just have this system where those unemployed etc, receive money from the society, so they can pay and not starve (or resort to theft and begging of course, but fortunately they do get enough money so this is rare).

      Some countries might give out food coupons or something instead, but here it's just money, part of which then has to be used for food, under the threat of death by starvation. Barbaric, eh?

      I dont see it as a matter of "giving up a right", if we stop killing others. Was it such a big hassle to "give up the right to have slaves" in America? It probably was GREAT, for the Whites, to be in control of another, to class them as "below us", a "thing" or "possession".

      Quotes on Slavery comes in handy for these discussions,

      Yeah, but you just have to draw a line somewhere. You could draw the line at anything that has DNA, or you could draw the line at your closest relatives.

      What makes slavery quotes totally irrelevant is, that you can take a slave, release him and hire him to work for you, equal to people you had employed already when you had him as a slave. Now good luck doing anything like this with livestock... Maybe with great apes and dolphins you could work something out, but that's about it.

      So please, can the slavery comparison, at least I find it rather bad taste to compare slaves (past and unfortunately present too) to livestock.

      I dont see myself as having "lost" any right by not killing others, be they human or nonhuman.

      Trying to switch from anybody not being allowed to do something to you personally not having done that? That's not very nice.

      Maybe you're stoic enough to not notice, but I bet most people would really feel they've lost an important right if they lost the right to kill different human parasites, even pre-emptively. So clearly there's inherent right to kill something, and you have to go "up" from there and at some point decide, the right to kill stops here. Or you could go down from your family or something, and decide that right to kill starts here, same thing really.

      RE Ethical Killing, hmm, I think we could debate semantics here. I agree with self defence, if someone, be they human or nonhuman, were attacking me, I'd defend myself. Rabid Dogs are not common in my area, do they come with the territory of nations where "you have to pay to live"? ;-)

      And just why do you think rabid dogs are rare, even in climate where winter doesn't kill them? Think about it for a moment...

      I understand that to be an integral part in how we deal with others, if we see them as "subhuman", an "it", or as our equal, think of war propaganda, about "dehumanising the enemy". In such cases, we "justify killing them"

    42. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      If there's a choice between not existing at all, or living and then being killed, then in most cases (depending on circumstances), I'd choose living, even though it implies also suffering and death.

      Interesting. Not a popular view I guess, but I don't have any argument against it. Then, for instance, you would have a duty of having four kids instead of one, at the expense of their life quality?

      I'll also allow a bit of selfishness, which in my case means, four kids are too much ;-). However, considering a number of factors, including both personally selfish, and the whole of Earth biosphere including it's future, I'd say 4-5 grandchildren for my parents would be nice, and also 4-5 grandchildren for me, eventually. Earth and Sun can support only limited amount of diversity (both biodiversity and cultural diversity), depending on state of evolution, and today and especially in the future also state of human technology.

      My impression is, that you think that number of future offspring for certain species of livestock should be very close to zero, because for those species existence implies being taken advantage of by humans in various ways. This is what I don't really agree to. Our (western, but probably others too) agricultural system and food production is messed up in many ways, but getting rid of all livestock that ends up as human food would only make it worse.

    43. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Why would we believe it right to treat others as our "resources"? Thats a terrible way to describe one another, "you're my resource" !

      I don't find it at all terrible. I mean, I'm a (valuable, I believe) resource to my employer. And if I felt I weren't, I'd be actively looking for a new job, before they also figured out I weren't a resource for them.

      I think you're confusing being a resource, and being just a resource. Humans aren't (or shouldn't be) just resources, but both humans and resources, even to public companies. Animals shouldn't be just resources either, but if an animal wishes to exist by getting it's food from humans, it had better be a resource that is worth the food it eats at least in some way, to someone...

      And there's nothing terrible about it, it's basic natural law, and a very fundamental at that (physical laws of thermodynamics and flow of energy, basic principles of all kinds of evolution driving things generally towards maximal utilization of energy flowing through a system). It's not only that the energy used by an animal must come from somewhere (thermodynamics), but that animal has to be the best at using that energy, or soon something better at it will take it's place (evolution).

      I dont think there can be shades of "what is property and who is another being", do you? Someone is either someONE or someTHING.

      I think there can be shades of that. Being "just a property" would imply the owner can do whatever he pleases with it (as long as it does not harm other parties with a legally valid interest in that property). Animal owner can't do whatever he pleases with the animal they own, there are all kinds of restrictions on animal treatment (and a good thing too). So while animals are property too, they're something else too. Degrees and shades, no absolute.

      Could we use an example from my second last blog post please? I commented here, as I've mentioned already, about the ad I saw calling Chickens "IT".

      How do you feel about the ad, in regards to the videos of my Chicken Friends also on the page? How would we define a time when its "right" for us to override any Right they have to NOT be property?

      Property is a human concept, and I don't see how chickens have a right to not be property, whatever that means (I mean, they'd die very quickly and uncomfortably as soon as they stopped being "property").

      Chickens are warm and fuzzy and cute, and I can see how someone would get emotional about them getting killed the way they do. But if humans do to them nothing worse, than what would happen to them (or their closet wild ancestors) regularly in nature, then I don't really see an ethical problem for myself. That amount of individuals meeting a gruesome end is larger than it would be in nature, doesn't change the fundamental issue.

      It may be "perverted" from some point of view, but it's still "circle of life" (or whatever you might want to call it). Instead of trying to stop the circle, you should try to fix it so it's perhaps less "perverted".

    44. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by dafing · · Score: 1

      Hi Urkki,

      I'll have to leave this as a quick reply.

      Once more, please let us all know where you live, where you are literally OWNED by your "employer"! We are of course animals too, can you agree with me there? We set up an artificial distinction, "humans" and "animals", that we are "above" them, or above "IT" perhaps more accurately. Its rather interesting that we chose that position for ourselves, eh? Perhaps Cats think they are above us? ;-)

      Physics, "fundamental laws" are not being challenged here, we are talking about unnecessary suffering and death. Are we for unnecessary suffering and death? Why do we kill the animals which we do? Do we *need* to, as a "fundamental principle of physics", or do we CHOOSE to do so?

      In New Zealand, theres another huge OUTRAGE (!!!) over Seals being hurt, why have we built certain animals up onto a pedestal? Where they reach a level of demi-gods? Where some people will say things like "animals are better than us, Human beings are a virus on this planet...animals are innocent", once more with that artificial distinction between "humans" and "animals", but in the nonhumans favour this time!

      Whales, Dolphins, Seals...hmm, lots of "large marine animals", Cats and Dogs, we somehow have made these animals PERFECT, AMAZING, WONDERFUL, SPECIAL. What distinguishes them in any way from the Chickens I look after? Why do we love some animals, genuinely respect their right to be free, I'd assume *MOST* people in my society would be against having Whales performing etc, you can thank Free Willy for that!

      Animals live in the wild just fine Urkki, they most certainly do not need us to cage them, to own them, to control them, to treat them as "ours".

      I used Chickens as my example because 1) they make up the VAST majority of the 56 Billion land animals killed each year (2007 UN FAO figures PDF http://bit.ly/56billion ), and 2) because I look after a family of Chickens. I think they are a splendid example for those reasons, they are the most killed, and the nonhumans I myself am most familiar with.

      I just founded the Invercargill Vegan Society, promoting Veganism in my small, rural city. I've had my Chicken Friends pose around my business cards etc ;-)

      http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2010/12/invercargill-vegan-society-business.html

      We have created an artificial justification, a "circle of life". Yes, animals (and we are animals too of course) are born, live, die. We should not harm or kill others, where possible. There will always be deaths, of "natural causes", "act of god", and "accidental" etc. These are unavoidable.

      Other animals do many things that you and I would find abhorrent, and morally wrong. We do not justify those activities with "but...Animals do it to each other!...", because they run afoul of our Societal Norms, what we've grown up with, what we've grown up doing to others.

      I wouldnt campaign for "humane child molestation", there is no such thing. I wouldnt spend millions of dollars, volunteers time, and perhaps worst, effort to influence consumers opinion against a subset of killing and using others. IE, "factory farming".

      Such activity is common from Animal Welfare groups, such as New Zealands SAFE, who are over the moon about a "sow crate ban", for Mother Pigs. They've spent millions on this, and have really made actual progress difficult for those promoting respect for Animals right not to be "things", for us to kill how we wish, for the most trivial of reasons, "coz we like it".

      This featured as episode 39 of my show, where I was joined by guests to talk about this declared "VICTORY!!!" : http://coexistingwithnonhumanani

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    45. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      My impression is, that you think that number of future offspring for certain species of livestock should be very close to zero, because for those species existence implies being taken advantage of by humans in various ways. This is what I don't really agree to. Our (western, but probably others too) agricultural system and food production is messed up in many ways, but getting rid of all livestock that ends up as human food would only make it worse.

      Two things. First, I'm not totally against a symbiotic relationship between animals an humans, in which animals can be seen as workers. So maybe there can be a state where humans consume animal products (that don't involve killing) in smaller amounts, as delicacies. Transition to such a state is also seamless. But it's not very likely since "humanity" only works in a deontological manner (it's either right or wrong).

      Second, I don't think getting rid of livestock would make it worse. Consuming plants is more economical for starters. So there doesn't need to be an enormous change in our bean production in order to continue feeding people. Plus, everyone would be healthier, a huge economical benefit.

      Besides, the change wouldn't be overnight, so this is probably a non-issue.

    46. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Two things. First, I'm not totally against a symbiotic relationship between animals an humans, in which animals can be seen as workers. So maybe there can be a state where humans consume animal products (that don't involve killing) in smaller amounts, as delicacies. Transition to such a state is also seamless. But it's not very likely since "humanity" only works in a deontological manner (it's either right or wrong).

      Second, I don't think getting rid of livestock would make it worse. Consuming plants is more economical for starters. So there doesn't need to be an enormous change in our bean production in order to continue feeding people. Plus, everyone would be healthier, a huge economical benefit.

      Besides, the change wouldn't be overnight, so this is probably a non-issue.

      So in your ideal world, what role would animals have? Would vast human fields be fenced off from wilderness, devoid of any larger animal life, and any animals wandering there caught and returned to wilderness area? Or would you have herds of wild herbivores wandering human fields, controlled by packs of wild predators? Or what?

      The first option I find extremely sad. I'd rather turn human fields to richer ecosystem than they're now, not poorer! Also it would be somewhat impractical, and no doubt you'd find catching animals that got to the fields too traumatic experience for them, and wouldn't accept it anyway.

      The second option I find unworkable in economical terms, at least if humans would not be allowed to heavily control the wild animals by either directly killing when necessary, or catching and releasing elsewhere (often to die on their own there, in a new environment, but meh). It'd also be something of a waste if humans weren't allowed to at least take part in hunt of herbivores along with other predators, as the amount of predators needed to keep herbivores so much in check that it wouldn't ruin farming would be... a lot.

      Maybe there's a third option you're imagining?

    47. Re:We all know PETA is crazy by gox · · Score: 1

      Well, I haven't thought about it very much. I guess at least some vegetarians (like me) are motivated by moral coherence rather than animal love. To me, killing animals for mere pleasure is just overkill (-;. Otherwise I'm not very fond of animals myself, including humans.

      I know some vegans who dream about integrating non-human animals into humanity but I don't see how it can happen. That would probably involve some kind of evolution or direct modification (maybe not genetic, but at least behavioral) on both sides. We can't integrate animals as they are, and as we are. I don't see the point of actively trying to create such a system, but I won't elaborate on that for now.

      As it is almost inevitable that humans will dominate the ecosystem even more, the sanest approach would be creating nature reserves. This isn't about ethics, but knowledge. We can't just let all that information disappear. Of course, a lot of species will go extinct (as they always do) and trying to preserve Earth as it would be without humans is pointless, so we need to do some optimization for everyone's benefit and try to preserve as much of nature-as-it-was as possible. The difference between humans and non-human animals will only increase and that's why an integration approach just can't work.

      Having said all this, if there were a chance to stop the killing right now, I would of course take it. Then the integration option, at least to an extent, would be more feasible. But as things are now, the best path seems to be through self-regulation (ever increasing number of vegetarians). When consuming goes down, production would gradually decrease. There would come a point where, even if everyone went vegan, there wouldn't be a livestock problem.

      This is isn't an ideal picture, but I believe it's more realistic.

  5. Meet the Characters by crafton · · Score: 1

    From the 'meet the characters' page:
    http://features.peta.org/super-meat-boy-parody/meet.aspx

    "Meat Boy is a vengeful, bloody cube of rotting animal flesh. And he smells. After a short-lived fling with Bandage Girl (sympathy dates, really), he became enraged when he was dumped for the tasty and satisfying Tofu Boy. Once Bandage Girl slept with Tofu Boy and saw all that he had to offer, it was bye-bye beef, hello bean curd. Enraged by his loss and lack of ability to compete with the badass that is Tofu Boy, Meat Boy snapped and kidnapped Bandage Girl—because if he can't have her, no one will."

    Does anyone else think it's a bit wrong if it's aimed at children?

    1. Re:Meet the Characters by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

      They think that's gross? The villain of SMB is Dr. Fetus, a fetus in a jar. Bosses include a happy ball of blood, a meat boy clone made of feces and a living pile of corpses. Oh and animals constantly get murdered by the saw blades everywhere as they try to flee from the carnage as Dr. Fetus destroys more and more of the world.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Meet the Characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sex, rape, kidnapping, and murder is ok. Only hurting animals is bad. This is PETA logic.

    3. Re:Meet the Characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like to think of Dr. Fetus as PETA, then it all makes sense.

    4. Re:Meet the Characters by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2

      That's one of the reasons why nobody takes PETA seriously: They operate on the same level as 4chan trolling Habbo Hotel. I mean, I've seen some fairly grown-up actions from Anonymous but PETA consistently acts like an antisocial teenager.

      Plus, whenever they want to "parody" something it's always mean-spirited and extremely badly researched, ending up carrying a lot of unfortunate implications - such as Super Tofu Boy, which manages to casually describe eating animals as being identical to cannibalism. Way to go, PETA.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:Meet the Characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no no, only non-peta members hurting animals is bad.

    6. Re:Meet the Characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a sense of humour dude. It's supposed to be a light-hearted spoof.

    7. Re:Meet the Characters by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Why is sex in that list? Or more to the point, what's wrong with sex?

    8. Re:Meet the Characters by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      That's why I likened them to 4chan: What they do overlaps with /b/'s sense of humor but is firmly in an area which most people would describe as tasteless.

      I mean, look at the Super Tofu Boy backstory. It's pretty much just 0.49 kilobytes of how much Meat Boy sucks and has only negative qualities. Parodying a work under Fair Use is one thing but doing so and having your "parody" bluntly bad-mouth the original is pretty low.

      Then again, this is PETA, the organization where both the dump and primary stats are Charisma.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  6. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I should go have a double down or something later....

    What could be later than a double down?

  7. Meat tosser! by nitzmahone · · Score: 1

    Stop the violator!

  8. ARGH! Controls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wish they changed their key-bindings from space-bar to up-arrow. I fail at the second level already

  9. Peta by Teun · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Peta should stick to their valid core business of fighting ill treatment of animals.

    Vegetarians are a whole different and sad subspecies of humankind, they try to deny we've been eating meat from animals since many millions of years.

    As a matter of fact we've become the creatures we are because we ate animals, for example there is strong evidence of a correlation in humanoids starting to eat seafood and a jump in intelligence that led to the making and use of tools.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  10. Re: by synackpshfin · · Score: 1

    ...People for the Eatig Tasty Animals (PETA)....
    There, I fixed that for you....

  11. Not a bad attempt... by Sits · · Score: 1

    ...but Super Tofu Boy seems to lack the polish of the original. The controls feel sticky, the ideas in the levels feel lifted from Super Meat Boy, the difficulties in the levels spike quite aggressively compared to those of Super Meat Boy (I'm not quite sure how to get past Golden Arches 2) and the animation doesn't feel quite so smooth. Is tofu inferior to meat in this case?

    1. Re:Not a bad attempt... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 3, Funny

      So your'e saying that Tofu is presented as a complete replacement for Meat but is neither as tasteful (cf. the STB backstory) nor as satisfying? How deliciously ironic.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  12. Re: by synackpshfin · · Score: 1

    ...People for the Eating Tasty Animals (PETA).... There, I fixed that for me....

  13. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who are those people that made it into 'People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals' anyway?

  14. Cool PETA Signage - Yummy Cows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After 11 yrs of Slashdot reading, have finally found something worth posting about!
    I clicked on the link to the PETA site....
    Found this stupid link about McDonalds Cruelty that lets you "make a sign" suitable for an "activist".

    The sign I created was not PETA friendly.
    AND they let me download n save it as a GIF

    Where should I post it......? :-)

  15. how about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  16. Listen Up PETA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am an omnivore. It means I fuckin' eat everything. And if you got a problem with that, I'll fuckin' eat you too.

  17. Bunch of dicks by GF678 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, not PETA, the developers of Super Meat Boy.

    After hearing about this game I was curious as to whether a Linux version was available or in the works. I ended up at http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2010/10/indiegamescom_podcast_5_super.html, and a commenter put a link to a podcast with the developers here: http://www.levelfortytwo.com/2009/12/talk-is-cheap-12-21-09/

    The relevant bit starts at 43:55. Basically, they think that a Linux version would mean it would have to be open source, which obviously it doesn't. To quote one of the developers: "Linux can fuck off as far as I'm concerned." Gee, thanks. I don't mind if you're not going to bother making a port to Linux, but to not even bother to understand what people are asking and instead resorting to profanity shows these guys are a bunch of closed-minded dicks.

    1. Re:Bunch of dicks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't mind if you're not going to bother making a port to Linux, but to not even bother to understand what people are asking and instead resorting to profanity shows these guys are a bunch of closed-minded dicks.

      I couldn't agree more.
      Those damn dicks didn't even bother to look into my suggestion of rewriting the game in lisp and bf and/or port it to MSX,C64,TI89 and TDS220.

      The thing is that random people on internet making requests is so common that there is no way to research everything that is suggested.
      It is very easy to become irritaded and respond to suggestions like like this.

    2. Re:Bunch of dicks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The relevant bit starts at 43:55. Basically, they think that a Linux version would mean it would have to be open source, which obviously it doesn't. To quote one of the developers: "Linux can fuck off as far as I'm concerned." Gee, thanks. I don't mind if you're not going to bother making a port to Linux, but to not even bother to understand what people are asking and instead resorting to profanity shows these guys are a bunch of closed-minded dicks.

      As a Linux user, I can understand the sentiment. The game doesn't "need" to be open source but making a binary work on all distros is a pain in the ass (the Flash team spent quite a bit of effort just figuring out how) and even if you do get it to work, the libraries are updated to ABI incompatible versions every couple of years necessitating make-it-work-again patches.

      Then, finally, you have the fundies who say you should never have proprietary software ever if it isn't baked into the hardware who drum up a racket any time the topic is raised and will even hit you with a mail campaign and other waste-of-your-time activities. It's less painful just to ignore the market, even if it is large enough to be worth considering, it's just a pain in the ass.

    3. Re:Bunch of dicks by GF678 · · Score: 1

      Those damn dicks didn't even bother to look into my suggestion of rewriting the game in lisp and bf and/or port it to MSX,C64,TI89 and TDS220.

      I know you're being facetious to prove a point, but Linux isn't exactly obscure or old anymore. It might not be mainstream but it's common enough for it to have had ports of commercial games for it, and also ports of games from indy developers. It's no longer unreasonable for someone to ask, that's all. I've seen plenty of indy games with Linux ports to make me believe there's potential in it.

      The thing is that random people on internet making requests is so common that there is no way to research everything that is suggested.

      True, but they appear to be misinformed about Linux and are instead going off a stereotype. They're programmers, shouldn't they be at least aware of what's out there? Or am I just being naive?

    4. Re:Bunch of dicks by GF678 · · Score: 1

      Seems to have worked for World of Goo. The developers just supplied static libraries where necessary instead of relying on the user to have the right libs already installed. This is EXACTLY how commercial software should be distributed in Linux. It takes the environment down to a more manageable level.

      Then, finally, you have the fundies who say you should never have proprietary software ever if it isn't baked into the hardware who drum up a racket any time the topic is raised and will even hit you with a mail campaign and other waste-of-your-time activities. It's less painful just to ignore the market, even if it is large enough to be worth considering, it's just a pain in the ass.

      So then you ignore the fundies. They weren't going to buy your software anyway.

    5. Re:Bunch of dicks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, thanks for that info. I was actually considering buying the game at some point, but from listening to that interview, it is clear that these guys are total douchebags--they will not be getting any money from me.

    6. Re:Bunch of dicks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funy because hearing them say that is having the opposite effect for me. It's making me recommend it to everyone I know. FUCK LINUX!

    7. Re:Bunch of dicks by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 1

      I know you're being facetious to prove a point, but Linux isn't exactly obscure or old anymore.

      Their main customer base is XBLA & Steam at the moment....is the pool of Linux gamers really on par with that combination enough to make it worth the effort?

      True, but they appear to be misinformed about Linux and are instead going off a stereotype. They're programmers, shouldn't they be at least aware of what's out there? Or am I just being naive?

      At the risk of being a bit pedantic, of the 2 developers, only one of them is a programmer.

    8. Re:Bunch of dicks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although the guy does sound like a dick you're not being fair to what he said exactly. He said that they weren't planning on doing one, and that he had an email prepared for the inevitable " I'll port it for free " email he'd get from a Linux user. Thats what spurs the mention of not wanting to share the source with anyone, which then goes on to him just hating on open source (it sounded like he was just saying fuck the idea of open source in general). He also made mention that there are only 4 Linux users and (jokingly) did not wanting to step on their toes.

      Whats clear from this is that he doesn't think people who run Linux as a primary platform are gamers, that the market segment for Linux gamers isn't worth their time, and that the Linux community is meade up of open source zealots (who in his opinion can just fuck off) who clamor for things to be open sourced.

      Let me be clear, this guy still sounds like a real asshole and he deserves to catch some flack, if I had heard this yesterday before I bought the game on steam as a gift for someone I would of skipped the purchase. I'm not huge on wanting games on Linux since I use Linux only on headless servers, but I don't want my dollar votes cast towards an asshat if I can help it.

    9. Re:Bunch of dicks by tibman · · Score: 1

      Shipping the required libs is the best option here. They can even optimize or strip the libs down to suit the game better.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    10. Re:Bunch of dicks by TheCyberShadow · · Score: 1

      It looks like someone enlightened him, and they've since changed their minds:

      http://twitter.com/#!/SuperMeatBoy/status/10377369512583168

    11. Re:Bunch of dicks by Archwyrm · · Score: 1

      If only I had mod points.. You just made this whole thread redundant.

      --
      Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Mussolini
    12. Re:Bunch of dicks by Meat+Boy · · Score: 1

      The relevant bit starts at 43:55. Basically, they think that a Linux version would mean it would have to be open source, which obviously it doesn't. To quote one of the developers: "Linux can fuck off as far as I'm concerned." Gee, thanks. I don't mind if you're not going to bother making a port to Linux, but to not even bother to understand what people are asking and instead resorting to profanity shows these guys are a bunch of closed-minded dicks.

      My first post! Please be gentle.

      It looks like that podcast took place almost a year ago... as of "about 12 hours ago" on twitter it was twoth that a linux version is in the cards for us: http://twitter.com/SuperMeatBoy/status/10377369512583168 I'd imagine the world of linux was either made more clear to them, or they were simply being inflammatory previously as a joke. Their reaction to the PETA thing would indicate the latter, I'd say. Hopefully you're not completely soured on the game, it really is something else (the only reason I restart into Windows). It'll probably be a while before the port happens, as there's only one programmer between the two of them, but probably early next year we'll have some fresh native meat to play with... what?

  18. fucking PETA by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    To do this, they HAD to look beyond the title.

    Super Meat Boy has nothing to fucking do with meat on a dietary level. What the hell went through the minds of those at PETA?

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    1. Re:fucking PETA by kramerd · · Score: 1

      Clearly, PETA wanted to use the game to entice people stupid enough to join PETA to actually join PETA.

      The fact that there in fact are people stupid enough to join PETA is not resolvable by complaining that PETA is stupid in practice (killing 5 out of every 6 animals your organization takes possession of is absurd when you claim that animal ownership is by definition somehow worse has got to be dumbest thing since people who...nope, can't think of anything dumber at the moment. Yes, I have met christian evangelists, vegetarians, members of scientology, people with autism, the mentally retarded, and that crazy bitch you used to "date" when you were young and stupid.).

  19. What rights!? They are animals! by Zapotek · · Score: 1, Informative

    How can someone relate to an animal in order to sympathise with it and support its "rights"?
    Don't get me wrong I'm not some sadistic freak that tortures animals but c'mon here...

    I can relate to human torture because I can mentally put myself in the shoes of the tortured person a bit.
    But no, I wouldn't/don't care about animal rights and I'll keep devouring them for a long, long time.

    Until they take over and make us their pets no...no sympathy from me.

    1. Re:What rights!? They are animals! by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      Until they take over and make us their pets no...no sympathy from me.

      In essence, you're saying that if aliens come here and make us their pets then we don't need rights either and they can do with us as they please.

      That's a really limited way of seeing things.

    2. Re:What rights!? They are animals! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we don't need rights either
      In essence, you're saying that a species with the cognizance to comprehend and fight for justice would recognize and accept enslavement from, by merely a show of force, they who came from a world outside our own.

      That's a really limited way of seeing things.

  20. It's probably about cannibalism... by Grapplebeam · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Because their president wants to be cooked at a barbecue when she dies, to disgust people from eating meat. Or something. Honestly, the idea was so nuts, I forgot to take notes on why, and merely listened to the what. Because when you're spoon-out-your-eyeballs crazy like that, it's hard not to be inadvertantly entertaining and terrifying at the same time.

    --
    There is no -1 Disagree.
    1. Re:It's probably about cannibalism... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      It used to be SOP to eat the dead in many cultures. There's still tribes where the custom is for the new chief to eat the heart of the old one when he dies. What's crazy about that? People are made out of meat. Crazy would be killing them to eat them when the alternative is not starvation but merely menu boredom.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:It's probably about cannibalism... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It used to be SOP to eat the dead in many cultures. There's still tribes where the custom is for the new chief to eat the heart of the old one when he dies. What's crazy about that?

      There are several rather serious diseases that are only transmitted by eating the flesh of humans. You rarely hear of these diseases because they only appear among cannabalistic cultures of which there are few. However, I remember reading somewhere in the last 10 years about a culture that was confirmed to have certain cannabalistic traditions because of the occurence among them of one of those diseases. Up until that disease was diagnosed among them, it was believed that the references to that culture eating people in certain circumstances were just folklore, not actual behavior.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:It's probably about cannibalism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's crazy because of who she is and the fact that she's NOT part of a culture that behaves that way.

  21. What does eating meat add to you? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

    Well, it is a more concentrated form of protein, which leaves you more time from gathering roots and berries, to like, build stuff, like pyramids, dams, hospitals , a civilization and the like.

    This guy had a good take at it all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Bronowski

    My girlfriend had a veggie book, that claimed that eating meat was against human instinct; "who would ever think of eating a nice, cuddly squirrel?"

    I countered with a quote from Benjamin Franklin, "hunger never saw bad bread'.

    Veggieism is an ethical, rather than a physiological evolution. If you decide to be a veggie, make sure that you take many vitamin supplements. Otherwise, you will devolve what your hairy assed ancestors discovered . . . eating meat is good for you, and efficient.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    1. Re:What does eating meat add to you? by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      Well, it is a more concentrated form of protein, which leaves you more time from gathering roots and berries, to like, build stuff, like pyramids, dams, hospitals , a civilization and the like.

      Well, not quite. The basis of all civilizations has been the ability to grain of some kind, which allows a few people to create a lot of food, to feed enough people to allow a division of labor and the creation of a class structure. It actually takes each member of a civilization much more labor to be able to feed themselves than it does in a hunter-gatherer society. Additionally, whenever humans shifted from a hunter-gatherer society to a sedentary agricultural civilization, stuff like life expectancy and general human welfare dropped rapidly. Civilization actually came at a pretty high price.

      I agree with you that eating meat allowed humans to develop large brains, which helped fuel the rest of our evolution. But the gap between evolving into homo sapiens (possibly with the help of eating meat) and developing civilization was a few hundred thousand years.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    2. Re:What does eating meat add to you? by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      My girlfriend had a veggie book, that claimed that eating meat was against human instinct; "who would ever think of eating a nice, cuddly squirrel?"

      Unless it’s made of plush, squirrels are not “nice” and “cuddly”. They’re wild animals, they run away from us, and they bite when cornered. (Unless it’s domesticated... but isn’t PETA against that too?)

      And I’ve eaten a few.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    3. Re:What does eating meat add to you? by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 1

      If you decide to be a veggie, make sure that you take many vitamin supplements.

      Not really. The misconception that you need meat to get all of your vitamins and nutrients is quite off. Everything you need can be found from non-animal sources. It just requires one to eat more than lettuce and tofu. I have a vegan friend that takes no supplements and is healthier than most anyone else I know. She also doesn't harp on meat-eaters and even cooks non-flesh products for others occasionally.

    4. Re:What does eating meat add to you? by abbyful · · Score: 1

      The only reliable sources of B-12 are animal sources. Vegans must get their B-12 from supplements/fortified foods. Some even have to get B-12 shots.

  22. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by hat_eater · · Score: 1

    Eat! Them! Eat! Them! Eat! Them!

  23. It's dicks, all the way down... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Indeed, I hate PETA as much as any right-minded individual, but these guys pulled a dick-move. They basically trolled the PETA forums with a bunch of sock-puppet accounts in order to goad them into action and to get publicity for their game, which seems, judging by the /. comments, to have not made it onto many peoples' radar. Yet again, PETA have made the world a worse place in which to live. This time by giving these tumbling tumbling dick-weeds the publicity they are so obviously desperate for.

    1. Re:It's dicks, all the way down... by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 1

      I think they're troll marketing campaign was ingenious.

    2. Re:It's dicks, all the way down... by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      You are... not familiar with them, yes? There's a difference between being an obnoxious prick and being a dick. It's likely that the quote about Linux was from McMillian, which him saying fuck off is like Tycho Brahe (from Penny Arcade) talking about how sexy giraffes are. And yes, we're all aware of how they trolled PETA, but unlike you, we think they deserve it. It not only made it onto our metaphorical radars, we shut down the missile defenses and sent them a welcoming committee, complete with cake. There's no chance of PETA ever seeing the truth of things- that's what any extremist can never do, otherwise the cognitive dissonance would literally make their head explode. As you put it, his "dick-move" (why is there a hyphen-there?) is what he does. He does it all the time. Just because he's a flesh and blood person doesn't mean you should take him as seriously as PETA wants you to. And really, he probably doesn't want to do a Linux version because it'd be time consuming and not very profitable, if profitable at all. Just run Windows. It's not like it's "The Great Satan" or whatever, and to think that Linux = gaming is a bit silly, don't you think?

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
    3. Re:It's dicks, all the way down... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just run Windows. It's not like it's "The Great Satan" or whatever, and to think that Linux = gaming is a bit silly, don't you think?

      The problem with that is Windows costs money and doesn't work the way I fucking want it to. Why buy it just to run a stupid game? I'll use Windows if I have to, but not games. Of course, if you ad said just use WINE, then thats something I might consider in absence of a reasonable native alternative, but I don't know if that is an option for this game or not.

      I did find the trolling PETA thing funny though.

  24. This is a /good/ day for animal rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For PETA to have enough free time to waste on this nonsense, they must have successfully stopped all real animal mistreatment.

    Otherwise, they'd look like idiots.

  25. Hey PETA by arielCo · · Score: 1

    Animals die, you know, so it's mostly a matter of how and at what age. Me, I'd rather have my head clubbed or my neck slit in a farm than be eaten half-alive by a predator that just mauled me enough to keep me still. And while that's not a true dichotomy, the odds of dying peacefully, surrounded and guarded by my peers are small.

    --
    This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
    1. Re:Hey PETA by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      Fuck that, I'm gonna die in combat with the natural world. Just me, a big knife, and every grizzly bear I see. I really won't mind if they eat me afterwards, because once I'm dead, I'm just meat.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
  26. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't the pattern of PETA behaviour just scream parody? Or perhaps agent provocateur?

  27. The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 0

    Vegetarians are a whole different and sad subspecies of humankind, they try to deny we've been eating meat from animals since many millions of years.

    Remember that raw meat is instinctualy repugnant; it's only with the technologies of fire and weaponry that we began eating meat at all - environmental conditions positioning it as a good source of protein. All these years later, we have better, and more future proof means of satisifying our caloric and protein needs.

    There are many reasons not to eat meat these days. Here are some

    Meat production requires 10 to 20 times more energy per edible tonne than grain production and is estimated to have a 54:1 protein inefficiency ratio (54 units of protein are required to produce a single unit of meat protein). Each cow raised requires (directly and indirectly) 90 to 180 litres of water a day and passes 40kg of manure per kg of edible meat. It's been estimated by scientists that that 1kg (2.2 pounds) of beef is responsible for the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide emitted by the average European car every 250 kilometers, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt bulb for nearly 20 days.

    Soya has 4 times more calories than red meat so the amount of soy that could be grown using the same amount of land would feed far more people than if used to raise cows. Moreso, a meat-based diet requires 7 times more land on average than a plant-based diet. Ironically much of the meat eaten world-wide is raised on soya grain anyway. According to The United Nations Food & Agriculture Organization, livestock production is at the heart of almost every environmental stress confronting the planet: rain forest destruction, growing deserts, loss of fresh water, air and water pollution, acid rain, floods and soil erosion.

    Finally, meat eaters generally consume more than twice as much protein as they need, increasing likelihood of kidney failure, cholesterol, heart failure, hypertension, diabetes, stress. Legumes, especially soybeans, contain the largest percentage of protein among the vegetable foods and are in the same range as many meats. If legumes are a central part of a vegetarian's diet, there will be plenty of enough protein in the diet.

    1. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Remember that raw meat is instinctualy repugnant; it's only with the technologies of fire and weaponry that we began eating meat at all - environmental conditions positioning it as a good source of protein. All these years later, we have better, and more future proof means of satisifying our caloric and protein needs.

      Tell that to the Japanese(sushi), or the Italians(carpacio) or the other multitude of groups that eat raw meat even to this day. We only find eating raw meat repugnant nowadays because we know there is a slightly elevated risk of contracting certain illnesses when consuming raw meat.

    2. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by clone52431 · · Score: 2

      raw meat is instinctualy repugnant

      No, it’s culturally repugnant. And even so, plenty of people still consume raw meat on a regular basis.

      In addition to the obvious sushi, many forms of smoked or dried meat are not cooked (e.g. jerky and many varieties of ham), any good steak should be raw in the middle (and anyone who prefers their steak turned into shoe leather is an idiot), steak tartare is considered a delicacy, Caesar salad dressing is made with raw egg, etc. etc. etc.

      What’s more, cooking meat creates carcinogenic compounds, so if it weren’t for the risk of disease and parasites, meat would be healthiest if it was consumed raw anyway.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    3. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      No, it’s culturally repugnant. And even so, plenty of people still consume raw meat on a regular basis.

      No, it is indeed instinctually repugnant. Eating raw meat is something that is learned, as is eating meat in the first instance. As evidence, young children readily reach for raw fruit but never raw meat: we know that without the killing technology of flame it should be rejected.

      The eating of raw mammal meat is a modern fashion enabled through refrigeration, antibiotics and sanitation (80% of all antibiotics sold in the US are fed to cows and pigs): unlike carnivores we do not have teeth or claws for tearing apart the flesh. Weapons and instruments have enabled meat as a dietary option among homonids.

      Meat may be 'healthier' if eaten raw, indeed. In any case, it is certainly not an essential part of a human's diet. I haven't eaten parts of animals for most of my life and have friends that have never ever eaten meat or fish. All are fit of body and host very bright minds indeed. Just as it is for them, meat is simply not something I consider edible anymore.

    4. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Remember that raw meat is instinctualy repugnant

      If you're repulsed by raw meat, stick to gnawing on grass and fungus. Personally, I love raw fish and steak. If you don't want yours, pass it over here.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    5. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The eating of raw mammal meat is a modern fashion enabled through refrigeration, antibiotics and sanitation (80% of all antibiotics sold in the US are fed to cows and pigs): unlike carnivores we do not have teeth or claws for tearing apart the flesh. Weapons and instruments have enabled meat as a dietary option among homonids.

      Yeah, tell that to the chimp who ate that woman's face off.

    6. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Your "evidence" is a bare assertion. Can you do any better that attempting to tell us your opinion is a fact?

    7. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      As evidence, young children readily reach for raw fruit but never raw meat

      I take it you’ve actually verified that experimentally?

      Yeah, young children like sweet things (and not without good reason: bitter tastes are often correlated with decay or poison, so young children are very sensitive to bitterness). And letting young children eat honey can give them severe, possibly fatal, food poisoning. And young children will also put dirt in their mouths. And a diet consisting entirely of fruit would not be adequately nourishing anyway; young children have to be taught to eat vegetables. So all in all, you really don’t get to use the preferences of young children as an argument that their instincts are best when it comes to what they should eat and not eat.

      without the killing technology of flame it should be rejected

      Without the killing technology of flame, most vegetables would be rejected too. Unless you’re advocating an all-raw diet (which some people do), you don’t get to use that argument either.

      The eating of raw mammal meat is a modern fashion enabled through refrigeration, antibiotics and sanitation

      That’s complete bullshit. People ate raw meat fresh and even preserved it for long periods of time before any of those things ever existed (e.g. pemmican and jerky).

      I haven't eaten parts of animals for most of my life and have friends that have never ever eaten meat or fish. All are fit of body and host very bright minds indeed.

      If you want to talk about modern invention... that is a modern invention. Cultivating soy and legumes for protein, using the “killing technology of flame” to tender them up before consuming them (they almost invariably are cooked first, I might add), and taking a handful of multivitamins and dietary supplements is the quintessence of modern invention. In fact this is very nearly the first generation of humans that could successfully stay healthy and well-nourished while living in such a manner.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    8. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      If you want to talk about modern invention... that is a modern invention. Cultivating soy and legumes for protein, using the “killing technology of flame” to tender them up before consuming them (they almost invariably are cooked first, I might add), and taking a handful of multivitamins and dietary supplements is the quintessence of modern invention. In fact this is very nearly the first generation of humans that could successfully stay healthy and well-nourished while living in such a manner.

      Hehe, I think you ought to read up on the history of vegetarianism. The Brahamins were vego for a couple of thousand years before Pythagoras discovered them and became vego himself! There are many different cultures which raise their young without meat or fish. I know several very healthy people (one an athlete for a while) that've never eaten meat or fish in their lives. Any vegetarian that needs supplements either has an innate deficiency of their own simply doesn't know how to cook for themselves..

      Regarding kids and raw meat, I've seen kids reject raw beef and fish yes - I grew up on a farm. It's often mentioned as indication of our predisposition toward vegetables and fruit, not meat. It is not strong 'evidence', no. Nonetheless, you have to learn to prepare animal parts for eating to avoid sickness. It's a skill dependent on several technologies as meat starts rotting very soon after slaughter (4 hours @ ~40 degrees).

      Cheers.

    9. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      Hehe, I think you ought to read up on the history of vegetarianism [wikipedia.org]. The Brahamins were vego for a couple of thousand years before Pythagoras discovered them

      Yeah, yeah, yeah... that’s only possible when you have good sources of nutritious vegetable foodstuffs, and typical mass-produced vegetable foodstuffs are woefully lacking in that respect. “Such a manner” includes living in cities with populations reaching into the millions and most food being grown on factory farms.

      I have no argument if you want to say that you can be healthy and well-nourished while adhering to a vegetarian or vegan diet. And I have no diet if you want to say that people could do it in the past, but their lives would have to be much different than ours for such a diet to work. There is absolutely no way that everyone in this modern culture could eat only vegan foods organically grown to actually have some decent nutritional value. Population density wouldn’t permit it. Individuals can do it, but if everyone tried there wouldn’t be enough food for them all.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    10. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I have no diet if you want to say

      Obviously that should have said argument, not diet.

      Thinking about all this food is making me hungry. :/

    11. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Remember that raw meat is instinctualy repugnant

      To you, maybe. I never tried eating raw meat for obvious reasons of hygiene, but I definitely like the smell of it.

    12. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Terminus32 · · Score: 0

      Humans weren't designed to eat meat - simple as. We have the same biological make up as Gorillas, who are HERBIVORES. They have canine teeth too, before you try & pull that one - and we have long intestines, no claws, chew rather than swallow (we don't use our canines) and walk upright - all traits found in herbivores. We may have scavenged meat in times past, but we certainly didn't start hunting it until we developed tools to do so.

      --
      http://nathanlindsell.blogspot.com/
    13. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      Why is it always brought up "how much grain cows eat"? Buy from local farmers that keep their cows on pasture. Cows are not meant to eat grain!

      I just took a few pictures last weekend when I was back visiting my parents: http://abby-eats.blogspot.com/2010/11/northwestern-kansas-pictures-part-i.html
      Note that the pasture land would be impossible to farm. And the cattle you find on flat land are just moved onto it to eat crop stubble. And the "wasted land used to feed cattle"? Check out the haybale in the ditch, farmers can sign up for stretches of ditch to bale for animal feed.

      As far as soybeans go, they really are not fit for human consumption. The only soy humans should eat is fermented soy (tempeh, miso, etc.). Unfermented soy acts as anti-nutrient. Not to mention the estrogen-like properties it has, and the fact it also contains substances that block the parts of the brain responsible for memory and decision making. A study in Hawaii showed correlation between eating tofu 2+ times a week and increased Alzheimer's risk.
      Soy is on my "avoid" list.

    14. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      livestock production is at the heart of almost every environmental stress confronting the planet: rain forest destruction, growing deserts, loss of fresh water, air and water pollution, acid rain, floods and soil erosion.

      Lierre Keith, formerly a vegan for 20 years, and author of the book, "The Vegetarian Myth", would disagree. She would say that about monocrops, such as corn, soybeans, wheat, etc.

    15. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hehe, a study in Hawaii. The Chinese seem to have a fairly low incidence of Alzheimers and soy's been on their menu for a couple of thousand years. The Japanese also, alongwith Thai and Korean.

      As far as phytoestrogens in soy products it has been found that one would have to eat a tremendous amount of soy to have any impact on hormonal imbalance.

      From the current evidence, it is believed that a moderate consumption of soy foods (eg 1-2 serves of soy foods/day) along with an overall healthy eating plan is unlikely to have adverse effects. This is consistent with Cancer Council's recommendations and dietary guidelines to eat a diet rich in plant foods.

      From here.

      Meanwhile.. cow milk and meat are both considered to be a major risk to hormone imbalance, especially in children. In fact, American beef is not allowed for import in the EU for precisely this reason.

    16. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      oops, accidentally posted as AC. See below comment.

    17. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      More than 70 % of all corn and 85 % of all oats grown in America are fed to cattle. Researchers Gold and Porrit found that all the grains used in agriculture worldwide are enough to satisfy the caloric needs of 8.7 Billion people, more than all the people on earth.

      I think Lierre Keith hasn't done her homework ;)

      As a meat eater you indirectly consume vast amounts of soy, far more than a vegan. See for yourself, straight from an agricultural statistics source (end of page especially).

    18. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      You know why that is? Corn subsidies. The corn grown and fed to livestock and used for fuel isn't corn you would want to eat off the cob. Corn is cheap, hence why it's in EVERYTHING; not just livestock feed but in most produces in the grocery store.

      Humans can't survive on grain alone. Try it, you'll end up weak, blind, probably crazy, and eventually dead.

      Farming ideally would be done like the Polyface farm does it. Rotating livestock, they actually build topsoil. And provide not only calories, but NUTRITION; you could live solely off what they grow/raise on their farm and no outside food. You could not live solely off a corn.

      Why don't you read Lierre Keith's book before you write her off? She had done her homework, and her book cites all the sources she used. Or are you just threatened she might actually confront you with logic?

      An animal eating soy doesn't directly mean I am eating soy (getting the estrogen-like affects from it, the blocking of memory and decision making in the brain, etc).. And I don't eat feedlot beef anyway, I buy grass-fed beef, and other livestock usually fed grass/hay (goat, lamb, etc.). Or I eat wild game meat, which yes, sometimes they get into the soybean fields; but that's only a couple months out of the year and not their sole diet.

    19. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      Asian counties traditionally eat (a) fermented soy, and (b) use soy more as a condiment, not a protein replacement. A study of Chinese diets concluded the average person there eats only 9 grams of soy a day. (Diet, Lifestyle and Mortality in China. A study of the characteristics of 65 counties. Monograph, joint publication of Oxford University Press, Cornell University Press, China People's Medical Publishing House)

      Soybeans were grown for ground-cover and to fix the nitrogen in the soil. The only time Asians would eat large amounts of soy was when they were starving.

      You are confusing what factory farming has done to meat with what meat actually is. There's a difference. If I were to put a carcinogenic into a glass of water, that doesn't mean the water itself is carcinogenic, it means what I've done to alter it is bad.

    20. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      I don't know man. We can debate on this forever but all I have to work with is my own experience. I haven't eaten meat or fish parts in almost 22 years yet my doctor tells me year on year I'm in weirdly great shape. I'm very fit and get the flu around once a year, for a couple of days, never more. I'm rarely tired/lazy and am very productive in my chosen career.

      I grew up on a farm and have eaten many animals that I myself have killed. So close was my relationship with this process that it seems abstract/unnatural/wrong to pay another to kill on my behalf. I'll only eat what I kill and if hungry enough I'd eat anything (or anyone for that matter!). We're animals like any other. To say otherwise is to reach for mythology.

      The reality is sustainable grass-fed meat, satisfying a world population of meat-eaters, is a fantasy given today's consumption habits. 200 years ago, sure. Today -grass fed or not- meat takes around 7 times more land than grain to grow while we, as a species, are breeding like rabbits. Much of the world is starving, hungry for grain stupidly maldistributed into agriculture. 70% of the Amazon has been cleared for grain 90% of which is fed to cattle elsewhere. It is madness. The trick is to eat the bean before it ends up on the cow.

      Agriculture is devastating the planet and I choose not to fund this. Read the UN Food and Agricultural Association's report. Conservative estimates place 50% of all tenable land on earth being dedicated to chicken, pig and cow parts by 2050. Once read, sit down for a steak, bought at your local bio-shop.

      If there's one thing we need to do now, it's eat less meat. Ideally none other than that feeling creature you kill yourself.

      We don't need to eat meat. It's a fetish, and a very environmentally costly one at that, given our number.

    21. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      By necessity, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuban agriculture went almost completely organic. Also, an amazing percentage of the fresh produce eaten in Havana is grown within the city--urban agriculture. During WWII, Americans were encouraged to plant "Victory Gardens" to help free up resources for the war effort. Some neighbors of mine have a sign up in front of their house that says "Food, Not Lawns".

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    22. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      I'm not a man, I'm a woman.

      I'm glad you are healthy. But not all vegetarians/vegans are healthy on their chosen diet; going veg*n is not "one-size-fits-all". Lierre Keith is one such individual; her health was destroyed by being vegan for 20 years.
      Here's the experiences of a couple other women:
      http://crunchychewymama.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-im-not-vegetarian-anymore.html
      http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

      I'm not against vegetarian diets, I eat a good number of vegetarian meals myself, I just cook meals that (a) taste good, and (b) are healthy. I believe people can be healthy on a vegetarian or omnivorous diet. However, I don't find the vegan diet to be "healthy".

      By reading your posts, it seems you think perhaps you are the only one on slashdot that grew up on a farm. And I grew up on a farm too. My background is very rooted in agrculture. My family grew crops (primarily wheat and milo), raised livestock (primarily cattle and sheep), and ran a grain elavator. My family also hunts. I know very well where my food comes from.

      I like meat. It's natural to eat meat. It's not natural to eat grains; and the eating of grains has allowed the human population to explode.

      Most pasture land is unfit for crops. Too sandy, rocky, hilly, etc. It would be impossible to get a tractor or combine around this land. A diet that includes some meat is actually a more efficient use of land. http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/534100

      As far as feeding the world's hungry, Western societies sending grain to them actually worsens the problem. It ends up hurting the local economy of an already ailing country even more, and makes the farmers there unneeded so there's even more people in need.

      Meat is a fetish? Um... whatever floats your boat! I guess Lady Gaga did wear that meat outfit...

      I'm curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat and don't eat monocrops? Do you grow all of your own food?

    23. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      A diet that includes some meat is actually a more efficient use of land.

      I read the article you link to and see it is very location specific indeed. In any case it doesn't have any real statistics and contradicts much of the data in the UN Food and Agriculture Report, at least when generalised to a pan-American or Europe-wide geography (where I live).

      Simply put, grass fed cow parts are nutritionally ideal but take much longer to raise (more water and resources over a lifetime) and consume larger amounts of space overall due to the comparative inefficiencies of grain vs grass. At current rates of meat consumption we'd need to raze a hell of a lot more forest to support this ideal form of producing edible animal pieces, even if we did turn those monocrops to grass.

      To reiterate, already at today's rates of consumption -continuing with ~80% grain-supplemented feed for the majority of animals eaten- conservative estimates place 50% of all tenable land on earth will be dedicated to chicken, pig and cow parts by 2050. One (luxury) food stuff with a ~54:1 protein inefficiency ratio!

      Again, the world agricultural authority, comprised of highly respected scientists, The FAO, says that agriculture is at the heart of both every environmental stress on the planet, floods, acid rain, erosion, pollution of water ways, deforestation..

      In the absense of meat-trees (which I fully support) there's only one thing to do to ensure future generations of humans have a breathable, bareable, biologically diverse world to live in: eat less, ideally no, meat. It's not working and solely eating grass fed animals are the inverse of a solution to this effect. Sometimes we have to make sacrifices, disciplining our hedonism and dietary vanities to look after the big picture. Many traditions prove to be stupid when shifted into a contemporary context, meat eating in the 21st century is one of them and will be remembered as such, along-with human slavery, inequality to women and lead pipes. A very smart thing to do to reduce environmental impact of this selfish diet is to raise your kids vegetarian. Kids I've known raised vegetarian think meat is a bizarre hedonism, right into adulthood!

      I'm curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat and don't eat monocrops? Do you grow all of your own food?

      I live in a city with very cheap and high quality markets, Eating out is also easy. I don't have a garden, though I'd love one. I try to eat an entirely raw, dairy-free meal at least once a day, not out of dietary convention but simply because I am a faster thinker and feel physically stronger if I do.

      A typical day might start with brown sunflower-seed bread with olive oil, rock salt and a thin slice of Queso de Manchego or porridge and chopped banana with a little soy milk and brown sugar. I'll often have a soy-milk latte or black espresso, made at home. Lunch may include a fresh chopped celery and bulgar salad with walnuts, volcanic salt and olive-oil/honey dressing. I live in an area with excellent turkish food, so if I'm out I might have a falafel with pickles or haloumi and oven baked potato wedges thrown in. Maybe I'll grab some lebanese or whip together a fresh mozzarella ball, cherry tomato and basil salad. For dinner I might have a green curry with coconut milk, sweet courgette, green sprouts and button mushrooms, tempeh or seitan on a bed of black rice; oven baked Parmigiani Aubergine or Setas de la Plancha with white wine marinade. To K.I.S.S I may just put together a whole grain pasta, with chopped almonds, paprika sauce and a little rocket salad on the side. Glass of wine or wheat beer follows.

      Cheers,

    24. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      Humans cannot live on grain alone. And the entire planet cannot be planted to grain; crops need rotated and summer-fallowed. And land used for pasture is not ideal for crops. All the claims I've seen about land use only talk about acreage, not quality of land. And many of your smaller farmers have both crops and livestock, when they harvest the crop, they move the cattle onto the land for a while to eat the stubble. Also, hay for cattle is often grown on "waste land", such as ditches and waterways, it's not using up crop land.

      Kids raised vegetarian don't like meat because their parents have told them it's bad. I don't like peas because my mom hates them, I heard my entire childhood that peas were gross. Just like Americans don't eat bugs because that's our culture and we see them as "creepy crawlies", while many other cultures see bugs as food.

      You are comparing eating something our bodies have evolved to eat over millions of years to slavery and women's rights?!
      Our physiological makeup determines our diet; we are omnivores so we can survive on a vegetarian diet, but not a vegan diet (without supplementation). No traditional culture in history has ever been vegan, they would have died out long ago if they were. The traditional vegetarian groups highly prize eggs and dairy for their nutrition.

      Also, I've noticed that most veg*ns I've encountered on the internet have never even been to a farm! (You say you grew up on a farm, I'm going to guess your parents probably did NOT abuse their livestock. And don't you remember what the pasture looked like versus the crop land? Crop land = relatively flat ground; pature land = hills, rocks)

      Eating grains is what allowed our population to explode. The continuation of eating grains is just a "band aid", it isn't a solution, it will just be more of the same problem. The solution is sustainable farming.

      So in other words: you eat monocrops.

    25. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans weren't designed.

      FTFY. We evolved. And the fact that archeological evidence shows that humans have been eating meat for longer than recorded history proves that humans evolved, one way or another, to eat meat. Ergo.

    26. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      That last sentence was a little unclear. I was referring to grains & legumes in your diet, those are grown as large monocrops.

    27. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      Eating grains is what allowed our population to explode.

      Please provide a link.

      I think you'll find that it's not humans eating grains which has allowed our population to explode but grain production, most of which is fed to livestock. People that eat meat are the bread and butter of the monocrop sector.

      To reiterate, In the U.S., animals are fed more than 80 percent of the corn and 95 percent of the oats grown. The world's cattle alone consume a quantity of food estimated to be equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people, more than the entire human population on Earth. Agriculture, as it is now is the source of tthe monocrop problem and its impact on bbiodiversity.

      I, as a longtime vegetarian, fund the tiniest proportion of monocrop grain compared to meat eaters like yourself. In fact on analysis, the only real crop of that genre that I do dip into is soy, of which I consume around a gram a day when averaged over a week. Most of this is in the form of soymilk (just 2.5g soy protein/litre!). People that eat biscuits, breakfast cereals, chocolate and even non-meat fast-food consume much more than that a day, lest of all all the soy that the animals they eat consume. I think you have weird ideas about where monocrop grain actually ends up.. It's not in vegetarians, for the most part!

      I wish you the best in your efforts to find a way to make farming sustainable at today's level of meat consumption. Sadly I think it's an absolute pipe dream, given the research I've read and observing how the non-industrialised farming community I grew up in is collapsing under industrial competition from elsewhere, competition which meets demand.

      A sustainable farming mandate == much less meat for everyone. The research is out there..

    28. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      You are comparing eating something our bodies have evolved to eat over millions of years to slavery and women's rights?!

      Yes. In order to morally justify eating another animal one inevitably depends on a spiritual power granting those rights. As a moral atheist, I see no reason why a pig should not be able to live a life despite the interests of man. I cannot see why a bull should have any more rights than a person, or vice versa. To say otherwise depends on some higher order, which, in other words, wanders down the garden path away from science and into hokuspokus. Like any of us, were I truly starving I would find myself caring little for morals, and would likely not hesitate to eat any walking or swimming thing around

      Slavery is thousands of years old and has been abolished. Skin colour is no longer a valid basis for discrimination. The institutionalised prejudice of women, once granted by God, is also on the way out, at least in the West. The farming of animals is unnecessary with an abundance of more practical and far less environmentally damaging sources of calories and proteins. Just as with slavery, rampant racism, imperialism and sexism, I find the prejudice against our fellow animals (and their environment)- the mass, organised slaughter of other male and female mammals- to be abject and morally corrupt.

      I expect we'll be forced to advance beyond such selfish stupidity, after a planet-wide environmental collapse.

    29. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      Eating grains is what allowed our population to explode.

      Please provide a link.

      Read the book "The Vegetarian Myth", she has an entire section on this topic.

      People that eat meat are the bread and butter of the monocrop sector.

      Not if they are eating pastured livestock.

      To reiterate, In the U.S., animals are fed more than 80 percent of the corn and 95 percent of the oats grown. The world's cattle alone consume a quantity of food estimated to be equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people, more than the entire human population on Earth.

      Again, not if they are pastured livestock.
      And you cannot say that grain used for animal feed could be used to feed humans, eating solely corn would kill people of malnutrition. Calories != nutrition.

      I, as a longtime vegetarian, fund the tiniest proportion of monocrop grain compared to meat eaters like yourself. People that eat biscuits, breakfast cereals, chocolate and even non-meat fast-food consume much more than that a day, lest of all all the soy that the animals they eat consume. I think you have weird ideas about where monocrop grain actually ends up.. It's not in vegetarians, for the most part!

      You sure make a lot of assumptions. You have no idea what type of food I eat.
      For your information: I try to follow the Paleo diet for the most part. I eat very little bread and virtually zero fast-food. And the meat I do eat is pastured domestic livestock or wild game meat.

      I wish you the best in your efforts to find a way to make farming sustainable at today's level of meat consumption.

      I never said people should eat at today's levels of consumption. The Standard American Diet is pathetic; I'm just saying that everyone going veg*n isn't the answer.

    30. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by abbyful · · Score: 1

      In order to morally justify eating another animal one inevitably depends on a spiritual power granting those rights. As a moral atheist, I see no reason why a pig should not be able to live a life despite the interests of man. I cannot see why a bull should have any more rights than a person, or vice versa.

      Your individual morals do not make things right on wrong. Some people think premaritial intercourse is immoral, some do not.

      I do not find eating animals to be immoral. It's the food chain. For one to live, another must die.
      1. herbivore or omnivore eats grass
      2. omnivore or carnivore eats animal in step 1
      3. grass (plants/soil) eats the animals in step 1 and 2 when they die (essentially soil is omnivorous)

      Are you opposed to a lion eating an antelope? If humans and non-human animals are "equal", why do you expect humans to deprive themselves of their natural diet?

    31. Re:The sanity in vegetarianism. by delire · · Score: 1

      As I said earlier, I have no problems eating what I kill, I have done this extensively in the past, just as your lion eats an antelope rather than going to the local lion supermarket. I've killed and eaten animals with the technological advantage of a gun, a knife or a trap in the absense of an actual predatorial body capable of killing 'game' alone. Unlike the lion, we're rubbish at hunting without prostheses.

      All said, if you think 'farming', with or without antibiotics, corn-fed-cows, trucks and transport, growth hormones and selective breeding has anything to do with this romantic 'food chain', I'm afraid we're on vastly different pages. Farming represents the antithesis of a food chain, a gross and inhumane abstraction away from the complex biodiversity that seeded our species in the first place. Farming, it is widely understood, is the greatest threat to biodiversity worldwide, 'grass fed' or not. You still need a lot of cleared land, land with grass, and thousands of litres of water for every kg of meat yielded pumped in from elsewhere. Farming continues to be a very environmentally selfish thing to fund.

      Nice chatting. I'm signing out on this thread.

  28. Wrong character? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems to me that the writer of this article confused Meat Boy (explicitly described by the game producers as "an animated cube of meat") with Meat from Mortal Kombat (a guy with no skin). Kind of unimportant, and maybe it's just me being picky, but... yeah.

    1. Re:Wrong character? by aevan · · Score: 1

      From http://supermeatboy.com/

      "see (as mentioned in countless interviews) Meat Boy isn't made of animal meat, he's simply a boy without skin whos name is Meat Boy.. but sshh don't tell them that."

  29. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by elrous0 · · Score: 0

    We know that any *true* vegan would have a Mac. I bet you don't even drive a Prius or own a bike, do you?

    Call us back when you're *really* ready to smugly proclaim yourself better than everyone else, poseur.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  30. Tofu = people? by clone52431 · · Score: 1

    Wait... it’s immoral to consume meat because the protagonist of the meat-based indie game is made of meat, and the protagonist of this game is made of tofu, doesn’t that same concept logically extend to the tofu game implying that it’s now unethical to eat tofu?

    This is so confusing.

    --
    Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
  31. -c for effort by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok whoever made that needs to try again as fml the meat boy very is better

    note that was not a comment about tofu/meat

  32. Linux users against PETA by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    My Linux box is wrapped in bacon, take that PETA!

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Linux users against PETA by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Wrapped in leather looks better. And you don't have urges to lick your laptop.

  33. I don't oppose PETA because of hypocrisy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I oppose it because I enjoy eating meat and domesticating animals.

    Is it any surprise that a rational person would oppose turning away from thousands of years and agricultural development, and millions of years of evolutionary development? I mean, I certainly don't want to be a tree-bark eating, root chewing, hunter (wait, no hunting..so just gathering) neanderthal.

    Actually, a neanderthal is more advanced than what they are advocating, neanderthals made animal companions.

    Does anyone else consider willingly giving up our evolutionary advantages just for.. guilt...utterly insane? Humans are biologically hard-wired to eat meat. Arguments for giving up meat altogether tend to be based on philosophy, and not reality. I could never stop engaging in a biological function just because of what some random guy thinks.

  34. I like to think of myself as a "humanitarian"... by idontgno · · Score: 1

    for the same reasons a "vegetarian" eats "vegetables".

    Super Tofu Boy is safe from me*!

    *No, not really. Tofu can be a fine additional ingredient in numerous recipes based on large amounts of meat. Case in point.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  35. There are meats other than beef, you know... by sirwired · · Score: 1

    Beef is indeed a horribly inefficient way of producing edible protein. However, both pork and, even better, poultry, are far more efficient.

    Next, I can't find a single source that comes anywhere close to your 54:1 ratio. Three different books on Google (meant as practical references for ranchers raising cattle, and therefore having an interest in being accurate instead of propaganda) gave ratios from 6-15%, depending on what was being raised. That's a LONG way from sub-2%.

    Also, see those pointy things at the front of your mouth? The ones maladapted to 100% plant consumption? They're called "canines", right next to "incisors." They are designed for tearing meat. Why are they there, in addition to the plant-grinding-things at the back of the mouth? Because you are an OMNIVORE. Mankind has been eating meat long before fire; raw meat is perfectly edible and digestible, even if game meats are a bit chewy.

    Oh, and that last link to fao.org said NOTHING about renal/kidney failure (neither word occurs anywhere), and nothing about the hazards of excess protein consumption. (It did refer to excess fat consumption)

    1. Re:There are meats other than beef, you know... by delire · · Score: 1
      There's plenty of talk out there about the protein inefficiency of meat production, which should be obvious anyway given that human edible foods (corn, grain) are fed to animals to then turn into meat. Here's a paper on the topic, citing the 54:1 Protein Inefficiency of meat production.

      Interestingly enough, cows die when they eat corn for too long, which is a primary reason why they're fed all those antibiotics in the first place.

      This isn't meat you're eating, it's a pharmaceutically enabled simulation of what our ancestors occasionally ate.

      Also, see those pointy things at the front of your mouth? The ones maladapted to 100% plant consumption?

      This is a myth. Our so-called "canine teeth" are "canine" in name only. Other plant-eaters (like gorillas, horses, and hippos) have "canines", and chimps, who are almost exclusively vegan, have massive canines compared to ours. Our early ancestors from at least four million years ago were almost exclusively vegetarian, later to become scavengers eating carrion and then hunters with Homo Erectus, making meat a part of the diet. Hunting is hard work - they only did it because of a lack of other options, often at certain times of year. Compare that to the couch-squatting meat eater of today that feels akin to the great hunter of old.. Pretty silly really, especially given that agriculture (now consuming some 26% of all land area on earh) was invented just 10,000 years ago.

      All omnivorism means we're capable of eating meat (useful from a survival standpoint if that's all that's available), but our bodies aren't geared for it to be a normal, significant part of our diets. (from here

      You eat meat because you like it and you don't have to kill it yourself. There's no other reason to eat meat - there's no evidence to suggest that it's a vital part of a human's diet.

      As someone that grew up on a small farm trained in killing the animals I ate, I can say I doubt most meat eaters would have the guts to really get behind their precious meat diet anyway - blubbering with guilt in no time. We had tough kids from the city staying with us that would run away screaming, hands over their ears, when we slit the throat of a pig.

      In modern times, meat is just a dietary fetish gone horribly wrong.

      Oh, and that last link to fao.org said NOTHING about renal/kidney failure (neither word occurs anywhere), and nothing about the hazards of excess protein consumption. (It did refer to excess fat consumption)

      Indeed, I meant to add another link in there. Too hasty! Here you go.

    2. Re:There are meats other than beef, you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      chimps, who are almost exclusively vegan

      BULL SHIT.

      Chimps are omnivorous.

      http://www.ypte.org.uk/animal/chimpanzee/116:

      Food: mainly fruit, but also leaves, buds, flowers, bark, resin, honey, ants, termites; occasionally birds and a variety of mammals, especially monkeys.

      Now you go find any legitimate source that claims otherwise.

      What’s more, even gorillas will eat termites and ants.

    3. Re:There are meats other than beef, you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chimps are omnivorous.

      True. At the very least, we know they'll eat human faces.

    4. Re:There are meats other than beef, you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone that grew up on a small farm trained in killing the animals I ate

      I had a mental image of delire chewing on a live squirrel, it flailing madly in its death throes.

    5. Re:There are meats other than beef, you know... by abbyful · · Score: 1

      MY meat isn't "pharmaceutically enabled simulation". I buy local pastured livestock. And I eat hunted game meat.

      And yes, I'll would kill my own food. I actually do so on occasion.

      Humans hunted because the food was more nutritionally dense and they could all get together and bring down a large animal, feeding themselves for actually less effort than to get the same amount of nutrition and calories from solely gathering. Not a single species of the homo- genus had been herbivore, all have been omnivores. Eating meat correlates to the growth in our brain size.

      Ever think about what agriculture does to the land? Or to habitats of wild animals?

      And we've been eating meat far longer than grain. Grain is the food group that is glaringly NOT meant for human digestion. I bet you eat a lot of grain though, don't you?

  36. A Modest Proposal by elkawuf · · Score: 1

    The real shame is that they let all those delicious euthanized critters go to waste.

  37. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I should go have a double down or something later....

    That would mean something if the double down contained anything resembling meat.

  38. Re:The irrationality in vegetarianism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's see. Your first two reasons are directly related to human overpopulation and the incapability of the planet to provide enough resources for that, not the consumption of meat. The "right" of every Duggar-wannabe to keep pumping out as many humans as they can does not personally seem like much reason for me stop eating meat.

    The last reason is a personal choice on how to balance longevity vs. quality of life - do I want to be ascetic and live longer, or enjoy my meat and maybe die a little younger? Well, life is about assessing risk versus benefit, and in this case, I'll take a shorter lifetime of good steaks over a final year in the nursing home, thank you.

  39. A thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's ever scientifically proven that plants feel pain/suffering when harvested and eaten, then PETA will morally end up with two options: merge with VHEMT, or give up.

  40. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

    I have my Linux system in a leather backpack... Does that help?

  41. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

    I just had a bowl of wokked soja sprouts - yeah, really - but your post is so inspiring that I may actually stop by the hamburger place later tonight.

    --
    What a depressingly stupid machine.
  42. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could double up after a double down.

  43. You don't "get any" so why complain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You never get any is what's wrong, with you personally, that is.

    1. Re:You don't "get any" so why complain? by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      I guess some sort of mom joke would be the maturity-level appropriate reply, but I'm too tired to make one.

      Because I was up all night boning your sister.

  44. Why are you trolling and stalking others? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Why are you trolling and stalking others? by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Because I can. Why are you anonymous?

  45. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a rather short game with some blatant background images. They did put some effort into the levels so it's not horrible or anything. Here's a spoiler Tofu Boy is a homewrecker and it looked more like "Bandage Girl" was being taken to safety by Meat Boy, and near the end it was shown the worst of his behavior came from being forcibly drugged. Wow, who knew that Tofu was such a slimy opportunist?

  46. Disappointed KoL didn't get any attention by GoodNicksAreTaken · · Score: 1

    I was expecting this to be about the game Kingdom of Loathing where meat is a currency as well as an item used to build other items.

    1. Re:Disappointed KoL didn't get any attention by neminem · · Score: 1

      Hi, fellow KoLer! Though I knew about Super Meat Boy through my old OCRemix connections, so I knew that's what it would be about. Anyway, I'd argue KoL as a whole isn't really "meat-based", just its economy. But yay for KoL.

  47. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    "I should go have a double down or something later...."

    What is a "double down"?

    From context, I'm guessing something to eat that has meat on/in it?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  48. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by clone52431 · · Score: 1

    From context, I'm guessing something to eat that has meat on/in it?

    Sort of. It’s a bacon and cheese sandwich made with fried chicken instead of a bun.

    --
    Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
  49. Flamebait by hether · · Score: 1

    Was the purpose of posting this story solely to give /.ers the chance to attack PETA? That's what all comments seem to revolve around.

    FWIW, most vegans and/or animal activists I know hate PETA, myself included. They bring a bad name to a good cause.

    --

    Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
  50. The law of unintended consequences by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Old horses that nobody wanted anymore used to be sold in the US for meat, presumably after being slaughtered humanely. But the "cruelty" of eating horse bothered some people, so they shut down all the equine slaughterhouses in the US. Now you can't even give a horse away, every equine rescue operation is full and not accepting any new animals. So what happens to unwanted horses now? They are neglected and starve to death! Yeah, that's sure a lot more humane than killing them and eating them! (or feeding them to your dog)

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  51. Tofu's great... by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

    if you're a man who wants to grow a nice set of titties and talk in a higher pitched voice. It's estrogenic, I don't know how it got a reputation among hippies as being some kind of health food.

  52. You are probably for animal WELFARE, not rights by abbyful · · Score: 2

    Animal WELFARE = treat animals humanely, co-exist with animals, if animals are killed for food it should be as quick and painless as possible.

    Animal RIGHTS = extinction of domestic animals, zero human/animal interaction
    (yes, I know humans are animals, by animal I mean non-human animal)

  53. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    "From context, I'm guessing something to eat that has meat on/in it?

    Sort of. It's a bacon and cheese sandwich made with fried chicken instead of a bun."

    Interesting.

    Where do they serve this type thing? Is this inside or outside the US?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  54. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by clone52431 · · Score: 1

    Where do they serve this type thing?

    Kentucky Fried Chicken

    Is this inside or outside the US?

    Yes

    --
    Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
  55. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

    Where do they serve this type thing? Is this inside or outside the US?

    It's served at Kentucky Fried Chicken fast food restaurants in the United States, as well as in some of the KFC restaurants in other countries around the world. Although it has gone nationwide in the United States, the Wikipedia page on the sandwich suggests that it is still an experimental product in the other countries.

    It is delicious.

    --
    Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
  56. Re: by abbyful · · Score: 1

    Or "People Euthanizing Thousands of Animals"
    Or "Poorly Educated Teen Activists"

  57. Bollocks by FornaxChemica · · Score: 1

    Reading comments like these, generously dissing PETA, you'd think the organization was actually set up by people who hate animals and whose only aim is to get them tortured and killed. Seriously, you guys are way off.

    Everytime there's a news item related in some way to PETA, anywhere on the web, you can be sure there's a delegation of haters who are going to make these preposterous posts that get more and more implausible as you read: first PETA is described as inefficient idiots, then as liars inclined to cruelty until they are no more than a bunch of sadists and extremists. You would have people believe they eat pups meat or whatnot.

    I find this totally bewildering. It's misinformation at its best; they can't just be disliked or disregarded, lies have to be spread about them in a propaganda fashion. Clearly, none of you know what PETA does for animals. All you have is this deep-rooted prejudice made of hate and ignorance, fueled by things you've read here and there online from other people who knew no better and had a grudge against them. It's just a long chain of slanders without actual knowledge of the facts or the people involved. For starters, PETA is certainly NOT against adoptions. Straight from the mouth of their president, Ingrid Newkirk (source):

    "If anyone has a good home, love, and respect to offer, we beg them: Go to a shelter and take one or two animals home. The problem is that few people do that, choosing instead to go to a breeder or a pet shop and not "fixing" their dogs and cats, which contributes to the high euthanasia rate that animal shelters face."

    Yes, they have to make tough decisions like euthanizing animals, because there's overpopulation, they explain it. They also explain that no-kill shelters, that someone mentioned, simply don't work (in short, they reject animals they don't find suitable for adoption or store them in cage until further notice; the lucky ones are sent to normal shelters that do perform euthanasia).

    Dogs, cats and others pets are sexually mature within a year, have short gestation periods and easily half a dozen babies in one litter. Do you realize how many animals can be born in a few months time? What do you do with them? Release them all in the wild? That's why PETA has many campaigns to raise awareness on the importance of neutering and spaying, among other things.

    I know some people who work for PETA. They're brave and kind, have to deal with a lot of foul-mouthed idiots on a daily basis. The only thing you could blame PETA for is to like animals too much. But this is a hardly a fault in their line of work.

    As for the way they spend their funds, think of it this way: they have enough money to do both all the stupid things you complained about (ads, parody games, etc) AND all the other important things, for the animals. How did they get so much money ? Through donations and endorsement. How did they get so much support? By being talked about and known by everyone. How did they achieve that? By doing all the stupid things you complained about. Circle closed.

  58. Done by Databass · · Score: 1

    Maybe PETA could give you a queasy feeling about meat by making a game where disgusting meat, blood and gore splatters everywhere every time you fail. And you can easily fail every few seconds, splattering horror all around the world....

    OH WAIT THAT'S WHAT SUPER MEAT BOY ALREADY IS!

  59. Re:I feel about PETA like PETA seems to feel about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh no, there's no version for Kolibri! I guess I won't care about them either.