What I had actually said was that there is a legal basis for a retail store to refuse a refund for a CD just because it has this particular DRM scheme included blocking users from making unlimited copies.
And you are wrong. You have every right to a refund, even with this version of the DRM. Now I'm just being a dick.
I take it you have never played tennis. Its Game, Set, Match, dumbass. If you feel the need to include Point, it would have to be before Game.
Yep, I haven't. I hate tennis in fact. Me playing tennis is more like serve -> homerun derby. *yawn* I'm bored. But congrats, I started this account to troll and haven't really tried it out until now. But thanks for the laughs.
"some of these DRM'ed CD" you mean "early attempts at Digital Rights Management that met with failure and thus have been replaced...
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, but it sounds like it is still the case that some SRM'ed CD's do not work.
So a sticker on the front of the CD does not count as sufficient notice? What do you want them to do, glue a big neon sign to the case?
Cost of one neon sign: $289 Keeping your customers happy: priceless
The argument stemmed from your ignorance of contract law i.e., "there is no legal basis for them giving you a refund." There is a legal basis if they don't play in devices they are expected to. Game. Point. Match. Give it up. You've lost. HAND.
Ugh. Does a CD fit in an iPod? No, so your retort is non-sensical. But a CD's purpose is to be used in a CD player. And if it doesn't, because that CD player is a CD-ROM, or a Mac, or an older CD player, then it does not work as it is supposed to and thus is subject to the warranty.
Basically, you're wrong. Just deal. A CD is supposed to be played in a CD player, whether that is a CD player, a CD-ROM, a Mac, a car stereo, a whatever. I don't mean it is supposed to be rippable. I mean playing as a normal CD does, in a CD player, which is what some of these DRM'ed CD do not. If it does not play in the above devices, then it is subject to a warranty of merchantability. If the customer did not have sufficient notice as the non-compliance, then they absolutely have the right to damages (i.e., their money back). See Henningsen v. Bloomfield Motors for an explanation. Even if the store policy says they don't give refunds, I bet the courts would enforce it if something was advertised as a CD and did not work as such.
Ummm, except that it is sold in a case generally twice the size of a CD and usually under a sign either above or in front of the display stating DVDs.
AND, it's purpose is not to be played in CD player. The customer-confusion aspect would only be looked at AFTER the warranty of merchantability aspect. You wouldn't get the warranty in your scenario because that is not the purpose of a DVD, regardless of any customer confusion.
A) do they state, clearly and obviously, that they do not work in some devices?
B) are they sold among and next to regular CDs so that a customer would think they should behave the same way as regular CDs?
My guess is: A) probably in small print on the back, and B) yes. I bet if this was really challenged, the right to a refund would be enforced. Unfortunately, the cost of a lawsuit would far outweigh eating the $15 for the disc.
Contracts 101. If the CD doesn't play in a device it should, you have the right to rescind the contract i.e., a right to a refund. Where did YOU get YOUR law degree?
You're saying a few good drug manufacturers, some of the best in the world, could make the drugs. And then people that know nothing about medication, or don't want to be involved in the drug creation process, could then use the drugs free of charge or mix the drugs as they see fit?
No offense man, but that is fucking insane.
My wife manages clinical trials and the amount of oversight is crazy. The hospital had to call her at 1:05 AM so she could approve a change in dosing a patient because the nurse was literally 5 minutes late in adminstering the drug because the protocol said "administer at 1 AM."
The point is, biotech costs a ridiculous amount of money. And even "the best in the world" aren't going to give up their research for free.
I live in Boston and I know a lot of people that have macs, and not just designers. I have mac users in my classes and I have engineer friends that use macs at home. I know lawyers that use them and IT guys that support them in the design department. I would say my mac exposure is abnormally high, but it really comes down to who you know.
As for the Apple coverage on/., well I think that is attributable to Apple getting it right (tm). Specifically, you have Unix with a GUI you don't have to dick around with to get working. They have achieved the holy grail of Unix+Usability and that is very attractive to, at least IMO, the people that care about computers, e.g., slashdotters. *shrug*
Was that Gateway sold it to me as part of a trade-in program. Supposedly, I could trade the PC in 2 years later for credit towards a new one. I waited until about three years into it and paid the GW store a visit. When I asked about the trade-in value, the clerk told me that it was only on the processor, and since I had a P3-550, it's trade-in value was..... $50. Want about the CDRW? Nope. DVD? Nope. Speakers?? Nope. Just the processor which I can give you $50 for. And I was still around the $1200s-left-to-pay-off mark. Nice, huh?
I spent $3,500 on a "gaming" PC from gateway back in 1998. It wasn't marketed as one, but I got the high end graphics card and speakers, and tricked it out with the fastest processor and maxed out the RAM. It took 4 years to pay it off and when I had, I had a beat up PC that crawled along and couldn't run crap. That's when I learned my lesson. I could have taken the 3.5k and spent ~$1200 each year and a half and be better off. I will NEVER pay for a "high end" PC again. Unless I win the lottery. And even then, it'd be a G5.
Currently Java on OpenBSD sucks. 1.3.x kinda works and forget about 1.4.x. Open Sourcing Java will allow people to port it to new operating systems (such as OpenBSD) where currently there is limited, if any, support. More platforms means more adoption in general. Control issues aside, this is a very Good Thing (tm).
The PTO does not answer to the FTC. The FTC could say that the PTO should be burned to the ground and the PTO would just laugh. Nothing to see here, move along.
You can generate hundreds of dollars in just your first day. My system will show you how to cross- post to HUNDREDS of forums. It is SO easy and you can do it from your living room. You don't even have to quit your job. You can do it in your spare time and put in as much or as little effort as you want....
So your "prior art" means jack squat until someone else tries to invalidate the patent. It's not like the PTO says "oops, our bad, the patent is invalid." Someone else has to sue/get sued and bring it up.
Granted, I have no idea the amount of numbering crunching a computer will be able to do 30 years from now, but doctors and lawyers do a little more than "translate." Both of them "invent" in their respective fields. For example: say a law is enacted in 1990 saying "no vehicles in the park." Is a bicycle a vehicle? Well no, not really, so it should be a allowed. What about a car? Definitely a vehicle, so it should not. Flash forward to 2004. The law is intact, as it was passed. Now, what about a Segway? If this were ever brought to trial, both sides would present reasons why their side should win. Barring specific legislation enacted to address this, the judge then "invents" the law in accordance with the changing times. Either side may win depending on why the law was originally enacted, what the population's feelings on the Segway are, or even how well the judge's lunch is agreeing with his stomach that day.
The same goes for doctors. "It hurts when I do this" is hardly translatable into "you have some new disease that no one has seen before." An example is asbestosis, a disease that results from the expsosure to asbestos. Before asbestos existed, obviously no one contracted asbestosis. A doctor somewhere, after running some tests, deduced that the odd fibers in the patient's lungs were asbestos and the patients resulting malady was a result of his exposure. Years later when the patient comes down with mesothelioma, the doctor again has to make the causal connection between the two. This is a little more than translation.
Though aspects of both are reducable to programs e.g., I'm in one state, the defendant is in another, does a Federal Court have subject matter jurisdiction? *bleep* *bloop* *bloop* *bleep* "Yes under USC 1332", but I truly wonder if machines will replace either given some of the more inventive aspects of the occupations.
This patent could easily be bypassed by someone else using DVD's instead of CD's
The Specification (the text you quoted) has nothing to do with the strength of the patent. The patent is encompassed in the claims. e.g.,
1. An event recording system, comprising:
(i) an event-capture module to capture an event signal and transform it into a primary event file that is accessible as it is being formed;
(ii) an editing module communicatively connected to the event capture module, wherein the editing module accesses and parses the primary event file into one or more digital track files that can be recorded onto a recording media; and
(iii) a media recording module communicatively linked to the editing module for receiving the one or more digital track files, the media recording module having a plurality of media recorders for simultaneously recording the one or more digital track files onto a plurality of recording media.
If the "media" is a DVD, they aren't "getting around it" by using one.
A patent is supposed to be [1] Not immediately obvious to an expert in the field, and [2] provide some new and original technology.
I'll give you the "new" part since it's close enough (35 USC 101), but "expert" is flat wrong; way too high a standard.
35 USC 103(a): A patent may not be obtained though the invention is not identically disclosed or described as set forth in section 102 of this title, if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains. Patentability shall not be negatived by the manner in which the invention was made.
"A person having reasonable skill in the art," e.g., a reasonable (not average, a "reasonable") person in the recording/CD distribution field.
This post was edited to be less of dick about it, but if/.ers are going to discuss the law, we should at least attempt to do it intelligently like we do other subjects (for the most part).
1: I follow your tutorial. I buy a soldering iron and solder stuff. I have wires everywhere (and my wife is growing increasingly annoyed with my "project"). It takes me at least a couple days working after work on it. Crap, I messed something up. I solder some more. OK, I'm finished. Tada, working controller, albeit not very pretty because I'm not good at making things look nice. A couple months go by, it breaks after heavy use. Go back to the beginning.
2: I order the X-Arcade off the net. It arrives. I plug it in and play. A couple months go by and it breaks. I ship it back, they fix it for free. Repeat.
Sorry, but scenario 2 seems better to me. Maybe it's because I bought a mac, but I personally just want something that works and works now. I don't want to build my own. It's great that it can be done and that you did it. I'm sure you do (and should) take great pride in your accomplishment. But that's not what I'm looking for. I'll pony up the money if I don't have to dick around with making it myself. But that's just me.
All the things you harp about are the product of the legislature, who, though mainly lawyers, are also a product of public opinion (even if that opinion is lobbyists).
"Not all lawyers are bad" -... Maybe not, but I think the majority are.
What a fucking crock. The majority? What 80% of the people that decide to into law are bad people? Or do you really mean the 51% the term "majority" allows you. I hate meter-maids because of their profession, but I can't believe the majority, or even a significant portion of the minority, are bad people. They are people earning a living at something they, hopefully, enjoy that has an unpopular place in society's eyes. You have to be a Darl McBride in my book to be a bad person, and those are fairly rare.
Except that the true capalists are the people that want a monopoly (that's what patents give you) and want to enforce whatever monopoly they have.
You can view it as greed if you like, but the language of business is money.
That aside, not all lawyers come from rich families or go to Yale because their Dad's a senator. Some are working class schmoes that had to take out $100,00 loans to go to school and end up working in the county DA's office pulling in only $30k (guess how long those loans will take to pay off) because they want to keep the drug dealers off the streets.
Not all lawyers are bad, not even all IP lawyers are. What are your opinions on Lessig and the EFF's law team?
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And you are wrong. You have every right to a refund, even with this version of the DRM. Now I'm just being a dick.
I take it you have never played tennis. Its Game, Set, Match, dumbass. If you feel the need to include Point, it would have to be before Game.
Yep, I haven't. I hate tennis in fact. Me playing tennis is more like serve -> homerun derby. *yawn* I'm bored. But congrats, I started this account to troll and haven't really tried it out until now. But thanks for the laughs.
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"some of these DRM'ed CD" you mean "early attempts at Digital Rights Management that met with failure and thus have been replaced...
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, but it sounds like it is still the case that some SRM'ed CD's do not work.
So a sticker on the front of the CD does not count as sufficient notice? What do you want them to do, glue a big neon sign to the case?
Cost of one neon sign: $289
Keeping your customers happy: priceless
The argument stemmed from your ignorance of contract law i.e., "there is no legal basis for them giving you a refund." There is a legal basis if they don't play in devices they are expected to. Game. Point. Match. Give it up. You've lost. HAND.
-truth
Basically, you're wrong. Just deal. A CD is supposed to be played in a CD player, whether that is a CD player, a CD-ROM, a Mac, a car stereo, a whatever. I don't mean it is supposed to be rippable. I mean playing as a normal CD does, in a CD player, which is what some of these DRM'ed CD do not. If it does not play in the above devices, then it is subject to a warranty of merchantability. If the customer did not have sufficient notice as the non-compliance, then they absolutely have the right to damages (i.e., their money back). See Henningsen v. Bloomfield Motors for an explanation. Even if the store policy says they don't give refunds, I bet the courts would enforce it if something was advertised as a CD and did not work as such.
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AND, it's purpose is not to be played in CD player. The customer-confusion aspect would only be looked at AFTER the warranty of merchantability aspect. You wouldn't get the warranty in your scenario because that is not the purpose of a DVD, regardless of any customer confusion.
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B) are they sold among and next to regular CDs so that a customer would think they should behave the same way as regular CDs?
My guess is: A) probably in small print on the back, and B) yes. I bet if this was really challenged, the right to a refund would be enforced. Unfortunately, the cost of a lawsuit would far outweigh eating the $15 for the disc.
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Google around for some of the more bio/tech savvy Universities and you'll see what I mean.
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Contracts 101. If the CD doesn't play in a device it should, you have the right to rescind the contract i.e., a right to a refund. Where did YOU get YOUR law degree?
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No offense man, but that is fucking insane.
My wife manages clinical trials and the amount of oversight is crazy. The hospital had to call her at 1:05 AM so she could approve a change in dosing a patient because the nurse was literally 5 minutes late in adminstering the drug because the protocol said "administer at 1 AM."
The point is, biotech costs a ridiculous amount of money. And even "the best in the world" aren't going to give up their research for free.
-truth
As for the Apple coverage on /., well I think that is attributable to Apple getting it right (tm). Specifically, you have Unix with a GUI you don't have to dick around with to get working. They have achieved the holy grail of Unix+Usability and that is very attractive to, at least IMO, the people that care about computers, e.g., slashdotters. *shrug*
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psxndc
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hence my comment of "nothing to see here." Thanks for linking to the editorial. I was too lazy to look for it.
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The same goes for doctors. "It hurts when I do this" is hardly translatable into "you have some new disease that no one has seen before." An example is asbestosis, a disease that results from the expsosure to asbestos. Before asbestos existed, obviously no one contracted asbestosis. A doctor somewhere, after running some tests, deduced that the odd fibers in the patient's lungs were asbestos and the patients resulting malady was a result of his exposure. Years later when the patient comes down with mesothelioma, the doctor again has to make the causal connection between the two. This is a little more than translation.
Though aspects of both are reducable to programs e.g., I'm in one state, the defendant is in another, does a Federal Court have subject matter jurisdiction? *bleep* *bloop* *bloop* *bleep* "Yes under USC 1332", but I truly wonder if machines will replace either given some of the more inventive aspects of the occupations.
-truth
The Specification (the text you quoted) has nothing to do with the strength of the patent. The patent is encompassed in the claims. e.g.,
1. An event recording system, comprising:
(i) an event-capture module to capture an event signal and transform it into a primary event file that is accessible as it is being formed;
(ii) an editing module communicatively connected to the event capture module, wherein the editing module accesses and parses the primary event file into one or more digital track files that can be recorded onto a recording media; and
(iii) a media recording module communicatively linked to the editing module for receiving the one or more digital track files, the media recording module having a plurality of media recorders for simultaneously recording the one or more digital track files onto a plurality of recording media.
If the "media" is a DVD, they aren't "getting around it" by using one.
-truth
I'll give you the "new" part since it's close enough (35 USC 101), but "expert" is flat wrong; way too high a standard.
35 USC 103(a):
A patent may not be obtained though the invention is not identically disclosed or described as set forth in section 102 of this title, if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains. Patentability shall not be negatived by the manner in which the invention was made.
"A person having reasonable skill in the art," e.g., a reasonable (not average, a "reasonable") person in the recording/CD distribution field.
This post was edited to be less of dick about it, but if /.ers are going to discuss the law, we should at least attempt to do it intelligently like we do other subjects (for the most part).
-truth
1: I follow your tutorial. I buy a soldering iron and solder stuff. I have wires everywhere (and my wife is growing increasingly annoyed with my "project"). It takes me at least a couple days working after work on it. Crap, I messed something up. I solder some more. OK, I'm finished. Tada, working controller, albeit not very pretty because I'm not good at making things look nice. A couple months go by, it breaks after heavy use. Go back to the beginning.
2: I order the X-Arcade off the net. It arrives. I plug it in and play. A couple months go by and it breaks. I ship it back, they fix it for free. Repeat.
Sorry, but scenario 2 seems better to me. Maybe it's because I bought a mac, but I personally just want something that works and works now. I don't want to build my own. It's great that it can be done and that you did it. I'm sure you do (and should) take great pride in your accomplishment. But that's not what I'm looking for. I'll pony up the money if I don't have to dick around with making it myself. But that's just me.
-truth
"Not all lawyers are bad" - ... Maybe not, but I think the majority are.
What a fucking crock. The majority? What 80% of the people that decide to into law are bad people? Or do you really mean the 51% the term "majority" allows you. I hate meter-maids because of their profession, but I can't believe the majority, or even a significant portion of the minority, are bad people. They are people earning a living at something they, hopefully, enjoy that has an unpopular place in society's eyes. You have to be a Darl McBride in my book to be a bad person, and those are fairly rare.
-truth
You can view it as greed if you like, but the language of business is money.
That aside, not all lawyers come from rich families or go to Yale because their Dad's a senator. Some are working class schmoes that had to take out $100,00 loans to go to school and end up working in the county DA's office pulling in only $30k (guess how long those loans will take to pay off) because they want to keep the drug dealers off the streets.
Not all lawyers are bad, not even all IP lawyers are. What are your opinions on Lessig and the EFF's law team?
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