I have no idea of your work environment, and what your company is doing. I would think however, that it would be safer for you to only install tested software in the form of RPM and DEB.
I again hold to my veiw that there is nothing wrong with having many distributions. A distribution is nothing more than a collection of software with an installer and some customization (usually wallpaper and menu layout and such) This is over-simplification, but not by much. What sets the distros apart is focus. There are many ways to serve a customer "hamburger and fries", and the best resturant is not necessarily the one with the most customers. Service, quality, ingredients, presentation, atmosphere, and price all play a part in the over all eating experience.. but it's still a burger and fries. A distro that is to my taste and needs could probably be made to work for you as well, but isn't it nice that there is another one down the street that has onions with no pickles and is a lot closer to your taste ?
I dont think it's as complicated as you make it out to be... you have RPM based distributions, DEB based distributions, and a few others package systems that are special to their distro. Slackware uses tar.gz I beleive, and that brings me to your comment on a common source package format.. well that is it ! source "tarred & gzipped" is a "common" format to all distributions (if you want to compile and build from source that is)
Usualy the distro maintainers or even users will create a package for a given distro to provide to the software developer. If it's good software then both an RPM and a Deb will be made for it.. I don't see a problem.
As a Debian user, I am partial to distros based on debain packages. There are several, and I choose to go with the stock debian sarge. I do also like a derivitive called XFLD which uses the XFCE4 gui., I also currently have Xandros installed on a seperate partition, and I like it for different reasons (it seems more buisness like and polished) but without the core start of debian these three great distros (and ubuntu) would not exist. I think they all should exist, and as Forest says.. that's all I got to say about that.
I agree with you on errors, but worse than this is it is supposed to be for beginners... If I am a beginner, what can I come out of this article with, that will guide me to a successful linux install ?
Live CD's are good, and he should encorge beginners to test drive. An actual distro for install, requires setting up the hard drive to accept it., and possibly partitioning and dual booting, if you want to have windows as well. Using his information, what distro is best for a beginner to use for this ?
Mandriva has disk drake, and that's pretty easy for a beginner to grasp, and Xandros (which he blows off) also is pretty darn easy and lets you split up an XP installed drive... others require you to understand things like mount points, and/dev/hda1 etc..
I use Debian Sarge, but for beginners I recommend a Knoppix CD and a Mandriva set of CD's if they want to do it themselves... later, I would suggest they try debian, which will be easier now that the hard drive has been setup.
The situations you describe are similar, however it is possible to create different variations of installers to install debian packages, and you would still be distributing a debian system, even if one version of your installer was installing KDE and another Gnome
From what I gather, the whole issue that the debain people have with the firefox trademark, is that if you change firefox with a bug-fix the license implies you have to rename it.. Debian was granted permission to do this and still use the firefox trademark in debian systems.. however some at debian feel that the debian versions, first of all need to be able to be used in any linux system, and secondly that if debian can have the ability then any linux distrubutor (no matter how small) should also have the same abilities,, and that it is unlikely that all linux distributors would have such privliges
Personaly, although I admire the moral stance that debian is debating, I don't see the problem. Fix the bugs, submit the fix to mozilla. From here you have 3 choices.. give your users the fixed firefox called firefox with mozilla's blessing, wait for mozilla to distribute your fixed version so you are supplying what everyone else can have, or fork your own debian firefox based browser (I think this is unacceptable to debian though)
I really don't see what is wrong with doing BOTH of the first two choices. support all of linux, but still service your users as quickly as possible.
Had same problem with lines you did earlier.. so bad had to leave and come back to get a more readable set of letters. I think it could use an option to refresh for another set
Sorry bout that.. read your post again, and now my advice changes slightly. XFLD is still a good choice, but is a matter of taste. I prefer the XFCE4 desktop but this can also be acheived in other ways.
I currently run Debian Sarge, which gave me generic Gnome and KDE desktops I can run. Then I added the http://www.os-works.com/debian/ testing main repositories to Synaptic, which allowed me to install XFLD desktop, which is a slightly modified version of XFCE4. (XFCE4 can also be installed in it's stock form without adding these repositories)
Monday the 30th, is the target date for the official release of Debian Sarge.. so stay tuned in for that. The installer I used installed from the net. Not quite a complicated as installing Suse from the net. When Sarge releases I am sure links will change, but if you want to go for it now you could go to.. http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
Of course this is me.. you may prefer something else. (I personaly have not tried Fedora) I have tried (some multiple times).. Slackware, Redhat(yrs ago), Mandrake, Vector, Knoppix, Mepis, Ubuntu, Xandros, Libranet, Sam, Cobind, XFLD, Suse, and of course stock Debian Sarge.
With a 486, you might try something like XFLD which is a Debian based distro using XFCE4 as the desktop.. Is a bootable distro like Knoppix, so you can test drive it before installing.
The stories of BSA fines I have read are horrible, and the fines (like the music sharing fines) are waay out of wack.
1.) an unintentional offence should be a "fix-it" ticket.
2.) a minor offence (ie: unpaid copy of something that was paid for multiple times) should be like double the cost of the software, with the first half actualy purchasing a legitimate copy.
3.) a major offence (warez-pirated) should be say.. the cost of a DUI fine plus the cost of the software, which will actualy purchase legitimate copies. and multiple incidents should increase just like multiple DUI's
But irregardless of this, the BSA should have to make an appointment for an audit of any facility, stating beforehand what licenses they are looking for. If I was setting up a company today, I would probably go opensource OS and office just to avoid this crap.
Really, what is a startup ? It's the creation of a new company... this has been done googles of times before... (was going to originaly use "many" but "googles" perhaps makes one think that perhaps the startup need not be an unique, but merely improved idea)
XFLD, SAM, Cobind are XFCE distros, XFLD and SAM are live CD distros
I run Debian Sarge, but added http://www.os-works.com/debian/ testing main to my deb and deb-src repositories to install the XFLD desktop and XFCE. My hardware is kinda old, but I have no problems with KDE or Gnome.. I just prefer XFCE
The XFLD desktop gives you a start menu (althogh not really needed as right click does the same thing) as well as some other "goodies" for XFCE. I particulary like the mini-command line. I can't pin it dowm really, it's just me I guess, but I like XFCE alot better than Gnome or KDE
Duke3d was a great game, not because of special machine crushing technology, but becasue it also had good puzzels and a thematic story aproach. I can only hope that the real reason that 4-Ever is taking 4-Ever is that they are creating a story, and not just a technology showcase.
I don't see how an "official" release is going to help you in convincing your manager of anything. Debian is not like buying Redhat with "support".
Unles you are the one providing the support, perhaps you would be better off looking at something like Xandros for your commercial environment. That way you get your Debian, and someone to phone.
Even after Sarge is officialy declared "released" there are sure to be updates and bug fixes, just as there are today with woody. The fact that they call it "testing" is misleading, it's really very stable.
Don't you fell better now ?.. Seriously, what's the deal with this Sarge release hysteria ? It's out there, I use it, it works, it seems pretty stable to me (in my case more than Ubuntu warty was)
It's always 45 minutes to fill a prescription even when your in their computer, and paying cash
It must be this decipering thing that's the real problem... I mean what's involved ??
Get the med from the shelf, count the amount, put it in a bottle, and print a lable.
Typical scenario... You wait in about a 4 or 5 person line to drop off you prescription. usualy there is 1 person both getting the new perscriptions and cashiering the filled prescriptions... and there are like 3 or 4 people in the back who are actually doing the counting and lable thing... After your 45 minute wait you get to again wait in this 4-5 person line.
Virtualy every sentence in your post is filled with paranoia. The sad thing is, this is COMMON of thinking patterns these days.
We are all going to go someday.. Live your life in fear, but that's not much of a life.. sheesh, start singing that song.. "don't worry.. be happy"... It's acapella after all !.. and maybe turn off the propa.. (I mean news) once in a while.
To each their own... apt & synaptic have me sold on Debian based distros. The variants like Ubuntu are great as well... and I have used them.. and pretty much all the others.. Slackware, Mandrake(iva), Suse, the old Redhat... pretty much you name it, Ive tried it (as long as you don't name Fedora which I haven't tried)
and I am where I'm at.. (Debian Sarge) because it's the best experience I've had.
I appreciate some frustration, however I find that it is often misplaced and unfair. I am sure that you would not expect Linux programs and extensions to run in Windows without much research and installs of interpreters.. codecs.. etc. and then you hope that someone somewhere has written an app that will run it in Windows.. same for running Mac stuff in Windows.
The gui stuff available for Linux is pretty extensive. I have 3 diffrent window managers providing different gui "experiences" (see KDE, Gnome, and XFCE) and there are more than this.. and the apps in one work in the other for the most part. The fact that.mov or.wma require some workarounds, are not the fault of the gui developers of the players you used.. there are other issues involved such as who owns the codec and library required to play it.. if it's a matter of a few commands.. the creator of the player would have created the functionality into it.. but this is not always the case.
That you found a command line "workaround" is great.. write the commands into a file and create a script ! then you can just run that by launching your script.. and you have made your own gui (sorta)
I don't think the average user is getting more knowledgable. I think that Windows is becoming more Unix like to stop them from screwing things up, which is where your "Windows is getting better" comes into play.
If there were something like a "stable" apt repository for windows users, imagine the down time that would be saved. That's a bit of knowledge that IT managers should take a look at.
Join us... Debian is the real future... be one with us...
just kidding, run what you want, and be happy or whatever
It also sounds a bit of extra work having two sets of commands to manage packages on one system
how about this.. apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, all accomplish the same end, using the same resources.. but different interface
I see nothing worng with an installer such as this, as long as it is intergrated to use and maintain these same resources... synaptic is awesome, but maybe too much for some people to find what they are looking for.
I can see where a stand alone installer that worked within the apt system could be useful if it was monitored somehow.(perhaps a debian revokable certificate ?)
It's a pickle as they say. You want it to be easy to install things... but then you don't want it to be easy to install malware, spyware etc., or to break your system
you can push a 20 ton steel vessel with an 80 hp motor, and cross the atlantic.
I am not an expert, but there are many variables to condider.. (any naval archetects out there ?) I do know that longer vessels have a higher maximum "hull speed" through the water (planing a different topic that would probably not apply to your challenge) but serious calculations of hull speed and resistance to obtain a required bhp can be done, and then its a matter of figuring out how to supply the proper amount, and design it in
The rule of such a contest, should also be mindful of the hazards to other vessels by an unmanned vessel. It's a big ocean, but it can get crowded, and a collision is pretty serious.
Slashdot Mirror
http://componentizedlinux.org/
I again hold to my veiw that there is nothing wrong with having many distributions. A distribution is nothing more than a collection of software with an installer and some customization (usually wallpaper and menu layout and such) This is over-simplification, but not by much. What sets the distros apart is focus. There are many ways to serve a customer "hamburger and fries", and the best resturant is not necessarily the one with the most customers. Service, quality, ingredients, presentation, atmosphere, and price all play a part in the over all eating experience.. but it's still a burger and fries. A distro that is to my taste and needs could probably be made to work for you as well, but isn't it nice that there is another one down the street that has onions with no pickles and is a lot closer to your taste ?
Usualy the distro maintainers or even users will create a package for a given distro to provide to the software developer. If it's good software then both an RPM and a Deb will be made for it.. I don't see a problem.
As a Debian user, I am partial to distros based on debain packages. There are several, and I choose to go with the stock debian sarge. I do also like a derivitive called XFLD which uses the XFCE4 gui., I also currently have Xandros installed on a seperate partition, and I like it for different reasons (it seems more buisness like and polished) but without the core start of debian these three great distros (and ubuntu) would not exist. I think they all should exist, and as Forest says.. that's all I got to say about that.
Live CD's are good, and he should encorge beginners to test drive. An actual distro for install, requires setting up the hard drive to accept it., and possibly partitioning and dual booting, if you want to have windows as well. Using his information, what distro is best for a beginner to use for this ?
Mandriva has disk drake, and that's pretty easy for a beginner to grasp, and Xandros (which he blows off) also is pretty darn easy and lets you split up an XP installed drive ... others require you to understand things like mount points, and /dev/hda1 etc..
I use Debian Sarge, but for beginners I recommend a Knoppix CD and a Mandriva set of CD's if they want to do it themselves... later, I would suggest they try debian, which will be easier now that the hard drive has been setup.
From what I gather, the whole issue that the debain people have with the firefox trademark, is that if you change firefox with a bug-fix the license implies you have to rename it.. Debian was granted permission to do this and still use the firefox trademark in debian systems.. however some at debian feel that the debian versions, first of all need to be able to be used in any linux system, and secondly that if debian can have the ability then any linux distrubutor (no matter how small) should also have the same abilities,, and that it is unlikely that all linux distributors would have such privliges
Personaly, although I admire the moral stance that debian is debating, I don't see the problem. Fix the bugs, submit the fix to mozilla. From here you have 3 choices.. give your users the fixed firefox called firefox with mozilla's blessing, wait for mozilla to distribute your fixed version so you are supplying what everyone else can have, or fork your own debian firefox based browser (I think this is unacceptable to debian though)
I really don't see what is wrong with doing BOTH of the first two choices. support all of linux, but still service your users as quickly as possible.
Had same problem with lines you did earlier.. so bad had to leave and come back to get a more readable set of letters. I think it could use an option to refresh for another set
Yeah, can't have any of that diplomacy stuff... now can we ? Much better if they just do what we say.. or else.
I currently run Debian Sarge, which gave me generic Gnome and KDE desktops I can run. Then I added the http://www.os-works.com/debian/ testing main repositories to Synaptic, which allowed me to install XFLD desktop, which is a slightly modified version of XFCE4. (XFCE4 can also be installed in it's stock form without adding these repositories)
Monday the 30th, is the target date for the official release of Debian Sarge.. so stay tuned in for that. The installer I used installed from the net. Not quite a complicated as installing Suse from the net. When Sarge releases I am sure links will change, but if you want to go for it now you could go to .. http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
Of course this is me.. you may prefer something else. (I personaly have not tried Fedora) I have tried (some multiple times).. Slackware, Redhat(yrs ago), Mandrake, Vector, Knoppix, Mepis, Ubuntu, Xandros, Libranet, Sam, Cobind, XFLD, Suse, and of course stock Debian Sarge.
With a 486, you might try something like XFLD which is a Debian based distro using XFCE4 as the desktop.. Is a bootable distro like Knoppix, so you can test drive it before installing.
1.) an unintentional offence should be a "fix-it" ticket.
2.) a minor offence (ie: unpaid copy of something that was paid for multiple times) should be like double the cost of the software, with the first half actualy purchasing a legitimate copy.
3.) a major offence (warez-pirated) should be say .. the cost of a DUI fine plus the cost of the software, which will actualy purchase legitimate copies. and multiple incidents should increase just like multiple DUI's
But irregardless of this, the BSA should have to make an appointment for an audit of any facility, stating beforehand what licenses they are looking for. If I was setting up a company today, I would probably go opensource OS and office just to avoid this crap.
Really, what is a startup ? It's the creation of a new company... this has been done googles of times before... (was going to originaly use "many" but "googles" perhaps makes one think that perhaps the startup need not be an unique, but merely improved idea)
How would you patch it an update it ?
Some states like California are considering charging a milage tax on hybrids.. So you save money on gas, just to pay it later in taxes.. nice huh ? .. just one story (google for others) http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/eveningn ews/main674120.shtml
I run Debian Sarge, but added http://www.os-works.com/debian/ testing main to my deb and deb-src repositories to install the XFLD desktop and XFCE. My hardware is kinda old, but I have no problems with KDE or Gnome.. I just prefer XFCE
The XFLD desktop gives you a start menu (althogh not really needed as right click does the same thing) as well as some other "goodies" for XFCE. I particulary like the mini-command line. I can't pin it dowm really, it's just me I guess, but I like XFCE alot better than Gnome or KDE
Duke3d was a great game, not because of special machine crushing technology, but becasue it also had good puzzels and a thematic story aproach. I can only hope that the real reason that 4-Ever is taking 4-Ever is that they are creating a story, and not just a technology showcase.
Unles you are the one providing the support, perhaps you would be better off looking at something like Xandros for your commercial environment. That way you get your Debian, and someone to phone.
Even after Sarge is officialy declared "released" there are sure to be updates and bug fixes, just as there are today with woody. The fact that they call it "testing" is misleading, it's really very stable.
There you go, your done, the waitings over..
Don't you fell better now ? .. Seriously, what's the deal with this Sarge release hysteria ? It's out there, I use it, it works, it seems pretty stable to me (in my case more than Ubuntu warty was)
It must be this decipering thing that's the real problem... I mean what's involved ??
Get the med from the shelf, count the amount, put it in a bottle, and print a lable.
Typical scenario... You wait in about a 4 or 5 person line to drop off you prescription. usualy there is 1 person both getting the new perscriptions and cashiering the filled prescriptions... and there are like 3 or 4 people in the back who are actually doing the counting and lable thing... After your 45 minute wait you get to again wait in this 4-5 person line.
I don't get it.. I just don't
dbcad7
Virtualy every sentence in your post is filled with paranoia. The sad thing is, this is COMMON of thinking patterns these days.
We are all going to go someday.. Live your life in fear, but that's not much of a life.. sheesh, start singing that song .. "don't worry .. be happy"... It's acapella after all !.. and maybe turn off the propa.. (I mean news) once in a while.
To each their own... apt & synaptic have me sold on Debian based distros. The variants like Ubuntu are great as well... and I have used them.. and pretty much all the others.. Slackware, Mandrake(iva), Suse, the old Redhat ... pretty much you name it, Ive tried it (as long as you don't name Fedora which I haven't tried)
and I am where I'm at .. (Debian Sarge) because it's the best experience I've had.
I appreciate some frustration, however I find that it is often misplaced and unfair. I am sure that you would not expect Linux programs and extensions to run in Windows without much research and installs of interpreters.. codecs.. etc. and then you hope that someone somewhere has written an app that will run it in Windows.. same for running Mac stuff in Windows.
The gui stuff available for Linux is pretty extensive. I have 3 diffrent window managers providing different gui "experiences" (see KDE, Gnome, and XFCE) and there are more than this.. and the apps in one work in the other for the most part. The fact that .mov or .wma require some workarounds, are not the fault of the gui developers of the players you used.. there are other issues involved such as who owns the codec and library required to play it.. if it's a matter of a few commands .. the creator of the player would have created the functionality into it.. but this is not always the case.
That you found a command line "workaround" is great.. write the commands into a file and create a script ! then you can just run that by launching your script.. and you have made your own gui (sorta)
reguards
dbcad7
If there were something like a "stable" apt repository for windows users, imagine the down time that would be saved. That's a bit of knowledge that IT managers should take a look at.
Join us... Debian is the real future... be one with us...
just kidding, run what you want, and be happy or whatever
Now it seems to be a "true geek" you have to have a laptop
I like how much laptops have advanced, but I still find that they don't give you that feeling that you get when you build it yourself
how about this .. apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, all accomplish the same end, using the same resources.. but different interface
I see nothing worng with an installer such as this, as long as it is intergrated to use and maintain these same resources... synaptic is awesome, but maybe too much for some people to find what they are looking for.
I can see where a stand alone installer that worked within the apt system could be useful if it was monitored somehow.(perhaps a debian revokable certificate ?)
It's a pickle as they say. You want it to be easy to install things... but then you don't want it to be easy to install malware, spyware etc., or to break your system
I am not so much a naysayer as the other posters
you can push a 20 ton steel vessel with an 80 hp motor, and cross the atlantic.
I am not an expert, but there are many variables to condider.. (any naval archetects out there ?) I do know that longer vessels have a higher maximum "hull speed" through the water (planing a different topic that would probably not apply to your challenge) but serious calculations of hull speed and resistance to obtain a required bhp can be done, and then its a matter of figuring out how to supply the proper amount, and design it in
The rule of such a contest, should also be mindful of the hazards to other vessels by an unmanned vessel. It's a big ocean, but it can get crowded, and a collision is pretty serious.