I suppose you're right. Case in point, my father is a stamp collector. He was stationed overseas (USAF) and some of his buddies wanted to get him a gift for his birthday. New stamp was coming out so they got a first-issue cover, or whatever they call it and had it postmarked by the postmaster on base with the date set ahead to his birthday. Funny thing was, his birthday was on a Sunday that year. go figure.
Address and stamp it on the seal side of the envelope with the stamp crossing the seal, and then get it hand cancelled at the PO so that the cancel crosses the sealas well as the stamp.
I totally agree. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in '91 (I was wearing an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time...) and my right wrist/hand was run over at about 35 mph. Split the end of the radius for a length of about two inches and broke the hook off the end of the ulna (that piece is still "floating"). The doc said I'd likely have crippling arthritis in my wrist/hand after about 5 years due to the break impacting directly on the joint's surface. I was determined to avoid that and maintained a pretty decent regimen of exercise including a LOT of cycling (40+ miles a day, bike messenger), regular long guitar sessions, and the ol' spring type hand exercisers. The result is that 15 years later, while I have some pain and a damn good weather predictor, I maintain very nearly 100% function in my wrist. And the rate of decline seems slow enough that I'll easily make it into my 70's with a still decently funtional wrist.
The reality is that nothing beats decent exercise to maintain any part of the body.
I tried to post this hours ago but the maintenance got in my way.
I think it's a pretty well established fact that the collective IQ of a group of people is inversely proportional to the number of people in the group.
It's a direct result of the Great Pirate Migration that coincides with the beginning of our last ice age. The pirates of Venus were able to build a flying "ship" that they used to raid the next planet out from the sun. The Venutian government at the time was glad to see them go. Parlaimentary Spokesbabe Eep-ork-O'p said "Take your pirate asses off of Venus and don't come back. We don't need you guys after all." She later was quoted as saying "That was a damn silly thing to say" just before she evaporated in a puff of super-heated Venutian protoplasm.
We earthlings, the lucky recipients of this influx of pirates, have, until recently, enjoyed a relatively mild climate as a result and have chortled under our breath as we've watched our Venutian neighbors fry to a crisp.
so, to follow up what you've said: This OP is basically talking about the linux model. Download only those parts you want and build the system to your specs. This is what we do on linux everyday and its great. The difference is that OP is expecting to pay for each part of the puzzle. And that's fine, if he wants to do that.
I think your last point is right on. The hardware partners won't let something like that happen. Their is no motivation to purchase new hardware if you can tailor the system to work on lighter/older hardware. This again is what we do in linux everyday. Want a email/browser/word-processing setup on some old hardware? put in a light weight WM, grab some smaller apps to do what you want and while it won't be the prettiest thing in the world, it will work and work well.
I can see MS supporting this model in a couple years if Vista flops, or the economy continues to be crap and people don't want to spend money on more hardware. or pay through the nose for bells and whistles they don't want.
Is this guy proposing to kill linux? And how exactly would he do that? go find all those volunteers and break their knuckles? Come on. People don't want DRM. Some people want linux. You can't stop that.
From your post it's not obvious what the purpose of Debian Testing is in your opinion, you only seem to suggest that "testing should be avoided." Let me clarify how I see the purpose of both Testing and Unstable.
Let me clarify as well, I did mean not that people should avoid testing, but that testing is its own special thing, (as is sid) with its own special requirements to manage properly. And that it can be difficult to maintain a system in good working order over time if you are tracking testing. It lacks both the stability of stable (pun) and the fluidity of sid and by being in the middle, it doesn't quite have the benefits of either. This is tricky to maintain and, IMHO, even more difficult to run than Sid. Why? because you can get stuck while waiting for the slower process to rectify the problem.
And I disagree about sid being intended to break. I don't think that's really right. More that sid is ALLOWED to break. And the reality is that sid has been really easy to use over the last year. Not from a lack of developement either. I typically upgrade over 100 packages a week, sometime many more. True there has been some breakage, but nothing that hasn't been fixed or worked around in short order. I haven't been down at all (thanks to that extra kernel:) and even that kernel problem was worked around and then resolved in just a day or two. And I truly am not a developer.
I agree though that sid is a little scary to run. From a usability standpoint, its great -- packages are pretty up to date and theres really nothing missing. Its the upgrades that are scary. In fact, I run one of my machines with an un-updated sid simply because its working well, is behind a good firewall, and it already does everything it supposed to. Eventually, I'll have to move it, but for now... Well, now I'm just a rambling deb-fanboi so I'll stop. cheers.
I've seen a lot of mentions of testing being compared to *buntu and I find it interesting. Prevailing wisdom on debian-user list is that testing should be avoided if at all possible, unless you actually want to do some "testing". Due to policy issues when testing breaks, it tends to stay broken for a while. Unstable (4ever sid) being much more fluid can definitely break, but also tends to fix itself up again in short order. For everyday use the suggestion is to either track stable (for servers and mission critical stuff) or track unstable (desktop/workstation) and avoid testing.
Comparing testing to any other "regular" release by another distro is really unfair as thats not its purpose. It's really in sort of a semi-frozen state by virtue of being in testing.
Personally, I've been tracking sid closely for over a year with no issues to speak of. Well, there was one yaird issue that b0rked a kernel, but I know none of you run with less than 2 or 3 backup kernels, right? And yes, it's desktop ready, and yes I use it everyday, and no I don't boot into windows to do anything, and yes, it's totally comparable to *buntu EXCEPT that *buntu works better right out of the box and has some nice gui front ends on config stuff. not my cup of tea but works great for my mom. (and no, I'm not her resident tech support in the basement:-P)
So where do you draw the line between the OS and the apps? Some things are obvious: the kernel goes in the OS. and ok, everything that you need to build the kernel, which is really a lot of stuff. And I guess that means you need libc et al. hmmm, but do you need an editor bundled with the OS so you can configure stuff? well you can't pick just one or you lose your [EMACS|ViM] fans. And then what about something like hotplug/udev? You don't really need them, but they are central to the operation of the OS in any kind of real way, so better throw that and all its dependencies in. Before long you've got so much you might as well do it all.
my point is that it's really hard to draw that line, and while I agree that line is out there somewhere, I sure as hell don't want to tell someone that their baby is on the wrong side of that line. Of course, I'm a happy deb user and am biased.
I hang out on debian-user a lot and I can say, that having everyone on the same page helps a LOT. In fact, you can count on one hand the number of recurring problems and they usually only involve a couple packages.
What does this mean? That out of something like 16,000 packages, spanning 3+ releases (still some Woodies out there), only a handful are problematic. True, a lot of those packages are not used by many, but still, it is telling. Debian Just Works, by and large.
the Republicans are doing the right thing by their constituents
wrong. The Republicans are currently the majority. That means their constituents are pretty much all of us. Yet they continue to do what is best for a small portion of us. That is NOT representing the constituency, but special-interests instead.
I'm not saying anyone else is any better, just that Repub's are currently the ones not doing their jobs of reperesenting THE PEOPLE.
...but I simply was in agony in high school when Pentium 100s costed an arm and a leg.
I'm not going to beat you for choosing AMD over Intel. I'm not going to beat you for claiming that your loyalties will switch on a moments notice. I'm not even going to beat you for getting a well modded first post.
No, no, no. I'm going to beat you for being a brat.
Why? Because when I was in high school, I simply was in agony because 6502's cost an arm and a leg.
It works because GOD chooses, not because man chooses.
so then what's the point of prayer? If its all up to god, then prayers (i.e those that pray) are wasting their time and probably annoying god by constantly ringing him up and asking for favors he may or may not want to grant in the first place. If god's plan is to save some sick person, and noone bothers to pray for that sick person, does he/she/it then change the plan out of spite? not a very nice guy/gal/thing in my book.
I'm not in the least bit surprised that God declined this opportunity to be used as a drug
His promises to never leave nor forsake, to answer when we call, and to take us home to heaven are made explicitly for those who believe and follow Him.
so what you're saying here is that god turned down these people because he didn't like what they were doing even though these folks who prayed are believers and followers? How in any crazy world does that make sense?
The government has just cause to investigate what people consider harmful.
NO. the government has just cause to investigate a crime. Do you think its harmful to not wash your hands after you take a crap? Better get the government on that. We better legislate that.
In this case, the government is attempting to get broad sweeping, but detailed information about what EVERYONE is doing on the internet in an attempt to uphold its own unconstitutional law. What will they do with this information? throw it away when they're done with it? nope.
Would you want them to pass legislation without investigating the issue?
But that's exactly what they did! They passed legislation and then waited for the courts to settle it out. So now they're trying to cover their asses by getting as much info as possible in hopes of finding something to support their actions. its all rubbish. they're reaching and YOU will pay for it one day when they come arrest you because you accidently surfed to a porn site. or worse, you didn't delete your spam and they found porn sites advertised in it. Or how about when they click track everything you do and they discover that you clicked on one of those pron-emails and went to the site cause you weren't thinking? Gee too bad. go to jail. [/rant]
I have to agree with you. What amazes me is that more people can't see it. How gullible is the general population? I am constantly baffled by the simple shit that gets pulled by the current adminstration/congress and there is NO response from the public. scary.
So, I just reread Margaret Atwood's "A Handmaid's Tale" and, its really scary and very pertinent to these sorts of discussions. I'm not trying to be sensationalist, but if you look around at what's happening in the US, its not hard to see how easy it would be to end up in Atwood's world. And this is how it starts -- gather information about people's unsavory practices... next, whittle away at people's rights while spawning just enough fear to keep down objections. Create a mysterious external enemy to focus attention. Slowly turn over the courts to more conservative judges. Position modern, mainstream thought as "Extreme and Dangerous". Do it all in the name of "protecting the children" or "protecting America" and well... there you go.
poo-grade: n. 1 a collection of one or more system software packages mostly comprised of poo. 2. shit on a disk. Usage I've downloaded our poo-grade and it is ready to install.
poo-grade: v. 1. the act of replacing existing system poo with new and improved system poo. Usage: It is time to poo-grade the main file server, please back up your shit. Thanks, sincerely BOFH.
I think there is a distinction between development work and "business" work. the GP was, I'm sure, refering to secretaries, admin people and the like. your situation is obviously different and requires a different approach. But for law offices, business offices etc, central data storage makes more sense.
[out-of-context quote] prevailing technology is excessive.[/out-of-context quote]
I think its been said for years that the vast majority of users need technology at around the 1995 level or so and that's it. Unless of course you're into eye-candy or need to keep all your spyware up and running in tip-top condition. Seriously though, you know its true that the bulk of business use it typing letters, contracts, whatever; a little email; a little browsing and a handful of spreadsheets. That was mature tech. 10 years ago.
I run debian on an athlon1700 with 256 megs and its super snappy. of couse I use wmii and live by K.I.S.S. Do I need dual-core multi-thread hyper-quad perplexinators? nope.
Slashdot Mirror
I suppose you're right. Case in point, my father is a stamp collector. He was stationed overseas (USAF) and some of his buddies wanted to get him a gift for his birthday. New stamp was coming out so they got a first-issue cover, or whatever they call it and had it postmarked by the postmaster on base with the date set ahead to his birthday. Funny thing was, his birthday was on a Sunday that year. go figure.
Address and stamp it on the seal side of the envelope with the stamp crossing the seal, and then get it hand cancelled at the PO so that the cancel crosses the sealas well as the stamp.
I totally agree. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in '91 (I was wearing an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time...) and my right wrist/hand was run over at about 35 mph. Split the end of the radius for a length of about two inches and broke the hook off the end of the ulna (that piece is still "floating"). The doc said I'd likely have crippling arthritis in my wrist/hand after about 5 years due to the break impacting directly on the joint's surface. I was determined to avoid that and maintained a pretty decent regimen of exercise including a LOT of cycling (40+ miles a day, bike messenger), regular long guitar sessions, and the ol' spring type hand exercisers. The result is that 15 years later, while I have some pain and a damn good weather predictor, I maintain very nearly 100% function in my wrist. And the rate of decline seems slow enough that I'll easily make it into my 70's with a still decently funtional wrist.
The reality is that nothing beats decent exercise to maintain any part of the body.
I have to admit it. I've done it just like this
/etc[space]/cups(or whatever it was)
/etc is GONE.
rm -rf
as root. yup. so about 10 seconds later I see it but its too late. all of
oh well. its only time.
I tried to post this hours ago but the maintenance got in my way.
I think it's a pretty well established fact that the collective IQ of a group of people is inversely proportional to the number of people in the group.
I mean, look at slashdot!?
It's a direct result of the Great Pirate Migration that coincides with the beginning of our last ice age. The pirates of Venus were able to build a flying "ship" that they used to raid the next planet out from the sun. The Venutian government at the time was glad to see them go. Parlaimentary Spokesbabe Eep-ork-O'p said "Take your pirate asses off of Venus and don't come back. We don't need you guys after all." She later was quoted as saying "That was a damn silly thing to say" just before she evaporated in a puff of super-heated Venutian protoplasm.
We earthlings, the lucky recipients of this influx of pirates, have, until recently, enjoyed a relatively mild climate as a result and have chortled under our breath as we've watched our Venutian neighbors fry to a crisp.
disclaimer: i use linux :)
.02
me too.
so, to follow up what you've said: This OP is basically talking about the linux model. Download only those parts you want and build the system to your specs. This is what we do on linux everyday and its great. The difference is that OP is expecting to pay for each part of the puzzle. And that's fine, if he wants to do that.
I think your last point is right on. The hardware partners won't let something like that happen. Their is no motivation to purchase new hardware if you can tailor the system to work on lighter/older hardware. This again is what we do in linux everyday. Want a email/browser/word-processing setup on some old hardware? put in a light weight WM, grab some smaller apps to do what you want and while it won't be the prettiest thing in the world, it will work and work well.
I can see MS supporting this model in a couple years if Vista flops, or the economy continues to be crap and people don't want to spend money on more hardware. or pay through the nose for bells and whistles they don't want.
meh
Is this guy proposing to kill linux? And how exactly would he do that? go find all those volunteers and break their knuckles? Come on. People don't want DRM. Some people want linux. You can't stop that.
From your post it's not obvious what the purpose of Debian Testing is in your opinion, you only seem to suggest that "testing should be avoided." Let me clarify how I see the purpose of both Testing and Unstable.
:) and even that kernel problem was worked around and then resolved in just a day or two. And I truly am not a developer.
Let me clarify as well, I did mean not that people should avoid testing, but that testing is its own special thing, (as is sid) with its own special requirements to manage properly. And that it can be difficult to maintain a system in good working order over time if you are tracking testing. It lacks both the stability of stable (pun) and the fluidity of sid and by being in the middle, it doesn't quite have the benefits of either. This is tricky to maintain and, IMHO, even more difficult to run than Sid. Why? because you can get stuck while waiting for the slower process to rectify the problem.
And I disagree about sid being intended to break. I don't think that's really right. More that sid is ALLOWED to break. And the reality is that sid has been really easy to use over the last year. Not from a lack of developement either. I typically upgrade over 100 packages a week, sometime many more. True there has been some breakage, but nothing that hasn't been fixed or worked around in short order. I haven't been down at all (thanks to that extra kernel
I agree though that sid is a little scary to run. From a usability standpoint, its great -- packages are pretty up to date and theres really nothing missing. Its the upgrades that are scary. In fact, I run one of my machines with an un-updated sid simply because its working well, is behind a good firewall, and it already does everything it supposed to. Eventually, I'll have to move it, but for now... Well, now I'm just a rambling deb-fanboi so I'll stop. cheers.
I've seen a lot of mentions of testing being compared to *buntu and I find it interesting. Prevailing wisdom on debian-user list is that testing should be avoided if at all possible, unless you actually want to do some "testing". Due to policy issues when testing breaks, it tends to stay broken for a while. Unstable (4ever sid) being much more fluid can definitely break, but also tends to fix itself up again in short order. For everyday use the suggestion is to either track stable (for servers and mission critical stuff) or track unstable (desktop/workstation) and avoid testing.
:-P)
Comparing testing to any other "regular" release by another distro is really unfair as thats not its purpose. It's really in sort of a semi-frozen state by virtue of being in testing.
Personally, I've been tracking sid closely for over a year with no issues to speak of. Well, there was one yaird issue that b0rked a kernel, but I know none of you run with less than 2 or 3 backup kernels, right? And yes, it's desktop ready, and yes I use it everyday, and no I don't boot into windows to do anything, and yes, it's totally comparable to *buntu EXCEPT that *buntu works better right out of the box and has some nice gui front ends on config stuff. not my cup of tea but works great for my mom. (and no, I'm not her resident tech support in the basement
So where do you draw the line between the OS and the apps? Some things are obvious: the kernel goes in the OS. and ok, everything that you need to build the kernel, which is really a lot of stuff. And I guess that means you need libc et al. hmmm, but do you need an editor bundled with the OS so you can configure stuff? well you can't pick just one or you lose your [EMACS|ViM] fans. And then what about something like hotplug/udev? You don't really need them, but they are central to the operation of the OS in any kind of real way, so better throw that and all its dependencies in. Before long you've got so much you might as well do it all.
my point is that it's really hard to draw that line, and while I agree that line is out there somewhere, I sure as hell don't want to tell someone that their baby is on the wrong side of that line. Of course, I'm a happy deb user and am biased.
I totally agree.
I hang out on debian-user a lot and I can say, that having everyone on the same page helps a LOT. In fact, you can count on one hand the number of recurring problems and they usually only involve a couple packages.
What does this mean? That out of something like 16,000 packages, spanning 3+ releases (still some Woodies out there), only a handful are problematic. True, a lot of those packages are not used by many, but still, it is telling. Debian Just Works, by and large.
sometimes you have to flog the mules just to maintain the current pace...
and yes, I love deb too. Go Debian Go!
the Republicans are doing the right thing by their constituents
wrong. The Republicans are currently the majority. That means their constituents are pretty much all of us. Yet they continue to do what is best for a small portion of us. That is NOT representing the constituency, but special-interests instead.
I'm not saying anyone else is any better, just that Repub's are currently the ones not doing their jobs of reperesenting THE PEOPLE.
I'm not going to beat you for choosing AMD over Intel. I'm not going to beat you for claiming that your loyalties will switch on a moments notice. I'm not even going to beat you for getting a well modded first post.
No, no, no. I'm going to beat you for being a brat.
Why? Because when I was in high school, I simply was in agony because 6502's cost an arm and a leg.
whippersnapper.
It works because GOD chooses, not because man chooses.
so then what's the point of prayer? If its all up to god, then prayers (i.e those that pray) are wasting their time and probably annoying god by constantly ringing him up and asking for favors he may or may not want to grant in the first place. If god's plan is to save some sick person, and noone bothers to pray for that sick person, does he/she/it then change the plan out of spite? not a very nice guy/gal/thing in my book.
I'm not in the least bit surprised that God declined this opportunity to be used as a drug
His promises to never leave nor forsake, to answer when we call, and to take us home to heaven are made explicitly for those who believe and follow Him.
so what you're saying here is that god turned down these people because he didn't like what they were doing even though these folks who prayed are believers and followers? How in any crazy world does that make sense?
The government has just cause to investigate what people consider harmful.
NO. the government has just cause to investigate a crime. Do you think its harmful to not wash your hands after you take a crap? Better get the government on that. We better legislate that.
In this case, the government is attempting to get broad sweeping, but detailed information about what EVERYONE is doing on the internet in an attempt to uphold its own unconstitutional law. What will they do with this information? throw it away when they're done with it? nope.
Would you want them to pass legislation without investigating the issue?
But that's exactly what they did! They passed legislation and then waited for the courts to settle it out. So now they're trying to cover their asses by getting as much info as possible in hopes of finding something to support their actions. its all rubbish. they're reaching and YOU will pay for it one day when they come arrest you because you accidently surfed to a porn site. or worse, you didn't delete your spam and they found porn sites advertised in it. Or how about when they click track everything you do and they discover that you clicked on one of those pron-emails and went to the site cause you weren't thinking? Gee too bad. go to jail. [/rant]
I have to agree with you. What amazes me is that more people can't see it. How gullible is the general population? I am constantly baffled by the simple shit that gets pulled by the current adminstration/congress and there is NO response from the public. scary.
So, I just reread Margaret Atwood's "A Handmaid's Tale" and, its really scary and very pertinent to these sorts of discussions. I'm not trying to be sensationalist, but if you look around at what's happening in the US, its not hard to see how easy it would be to end up in Atwood's world. And this is how it starts -- gather information about people's unsavory practices... next, whittle away at people's rights while spawning just enough fear to keep down objections. Create a mysterious external enemy to focus attention. Slowly turn over the courts to more conservative judges. Position modern, mainstream thought as "Extreme and Dangerous". Do it all in the name of "protecting the children" or "protecting America" and well... there you go.
you're all abunch of whippersnappers.
34ms, age 35, 3 fat tires, 1/2 pack of cigs, 2 bong hits, and Jimi Hendrix turned up to 11.
meh.
you misspelled pugrade. Its poo-grade.
poo-grade: n. 1 a collection of one or more system software packages mostly comprised of poo. 2. shit on a disk. Usage I've downloaded our poo-grade and it is ready to install.
poo-grade: v. 1. the act of replacing existing system poo with new and improved system poo. Usage: It is time to poo-grade the main file server, please back up your shit. Thanks, sincerely BOFH.
I think there is a distinction between development work and "business" work. the GP was, I'm sure, refering to secretaries, admin people and the like. your situation is obviously different and requires a different approach. But for law offices, business offices etc, central data storage makes more sense.
[out-of-context quote] prevailing technology is excessive.[/out-of-context quote]
I think its been said for years that the vast majority of users need technology at around the 1995 level or so and that's it. Unless of course you're into eye-candy or need to keep all your spyware up and running in tip-top condition. Seriously though, you know its true that the bulk of business use it typing letters, contracts, whatever; a little email; a little browsing and a handful of spreadsheets. That was mature tech. 10 years ago.
I run debian on an athlon1700 with 256 megs and its super snappy. of couse I use wmii and live by K.I.S.S. Do I need dual-core multi-thread hyper-quad perplexinators? nope.
I know. I'm a luddite.
warning Active X required to view that video. um. thanks but no thanks.
me too, brother, me too.