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60% Of Windows Vista Code To Be Rewritten
Alien54 writes "Up to 60% of the code in the new consumer version of Microsoft new Vista operating system is set to be rewritten as the Company "scrambles" to fix internal problems, according to this report. In an effort to meet a deadline of the 2007 CES show in Las Vegas Microsoft has pulled programmers from the highly succesful Xbox team to help resolve many problems associated with entertainment and media centre functionality inside the OS. Much more at the link."
But please don't use this 60% figure as proof that Vista will suck. Because it doesn't necessarily mean that.
Once again, we have the Slashdot spin to deal with: Scrambling to fix problems? If they're saying their release date is sometime in 2007, I don't think they need to scramble. They actually seem pretty lax about when this is going to be released. Hell, I heard about Longhorn years ago and they sure haven't been "scrambling" to do anything with that. Stop making it sound like Microsoft is running around with their heads cut off. Because I highly doubt it.
I interpret this to mean that Microsoft is stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. They have identified so many problems that it needs major revision and good for them.
Do you remember Windows 98, first edition? Do remember how much better second edition was? I do. Why the hell they didn't just wait on the release is simple. Money.
They could release Vista prematurely but now we wait until 2007. And if you hate Windows, like I do, why do you care? We're still going to be using Linux anyways.
So please, look at this move as a gesture to try and release a quality product and not slop out some POS OS that they are only releasing for the sake of income.
My work here is dung.
That said, I think there's trouble brewing for any company that chants “innovation” like some apotropaïc mantra: you have it or you don't (and it tends to go hand in hand with testosterone).
One can only hope.
That's a lot of GoTo statements!!!
I was under the impression that Vista had already been totally re-written, back last year some time because the XP code base was too "messy". Is 60% perhaps the amount of code that has already been re-coded?
Always add gaming programmers late in the project and to improve security and reliability.
In an effort to meet a deadline of the 2007 CES show in Las Vegas Microsoft has pulled programmers from the highly succesful Xbox team to help resolve many problems associated with entertainment and media centre functionality inside the OS.
"Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later." - Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man-Month
I got nothin'
When has Smarthouse.com.au steered you wrong in the past????
Seriously, some of the shit that gets posted on Slashdot is the geek equivelant of a tabloid.
in Soviet Redmont.. ohh wait
The hits just keep coming... I'm no Microsoft supporter, but that's a lot of bad PR for any company in one day - makes you feel sorry for them.
I wonder if all this negative press will affect their stock price in trading today. (Makes you feel sorry for their shareholders!)
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
When you run into a large issue, you don't pull people off another project to help.
It's like getting 3 women pregnant so you can have a baby in 3 months.
You need to define your new schedule and stick to that. otherwise you end up with a slower schedule and a different set of bugs.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
..if it's not a google story, it must be a microsoft story.
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Am I the only one who thinks that things like media and entertainment should not be core parts of an OS, but rather should be handled by applications that run on the OS? We're not buying a television, after all.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
On a related note, Steve Ballmer also announced the end of paid vacation for Microsoft employees through to Christmas 2007.
Will be called Mac Vista 1.0
Yeah, my karma sucks....but so do the mods.
No, it's a normal day at Slashdot.
Nothing to see here, move along.
A good book and it discusses how adding MORE programmers to a task means the project will take LONGER to complete.
So, adding more programmers to a late project, and not slipping the date even more to account for them, [b]probably[/b] means that the final result [b]will[/b] suck.
It seems like Microsoft's internal memo saying that they would try to make sure some significant news on Vista came out each day is alive and well on Slashdot. Every god damn day, we have a Windows Vista story on here and every day is the same old comments. Can we please vote for a Vista free day please?
Now it's two stories in a row. Stop the madness. I'd rather read Kernel release stories than this nonsense.
Then why not fix the god awful music library?
It takes forever to search through a relatively large music database (>30Gb), completely grinding to a halt.
The music search is pathetic. You cannot search for tags across categories!!
It will only search individual tag categories for the typed phrase. Unless Beatles Help is the name of an artist, album, or song the pathetic search will not find it.
How anyone could release Media Center 2005 with the tagline stating 2005 with these capabilities is pathetic.
While I'm ranting, why on the search results (when they finally turn up) does it not state the full details of the results? Why do you have to click on the name of the song title before you find out who the song is by? The user interface is possibly the worst case of style over functionality I have ever seen.
Just not computer ready....sigh
I remember reading a good portion of their Rapid Application Development book. I sometimes wonder when I read these articles if they have read it themselves. The main rule in that book is to not set unrealistic goals. I remember hearing the first time about Vista that it might not be out until 2007. I think they should have stuck with that as their original goal. Dropping off features just to make a 2006 rush made them reset their programming team's focus too many times. The cost? Time. I realize that an operating system is not the easiest program in the world, but this is Microsoft. They have existing code to choose from, they have programming geniuses at their finger steps, and they were SUPPOSED to have an idea how to program efficiently according to that book with the Microsoft name on it. Lesson for Microsoft: take your own advice and use it!
Up to 60% of the code in the new consumer version of Microsoft new Vista operating system is set to be scrambled to make reverse engineering more difficult. I mean, you can obiously not be secure if someone knows about you source code.
If really lucky, a Vista runner will also have even more than the six seconds other scamblejets have before crash.
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
Microsoft is pulling some staff from an finished project and assigning them to an unfinished project...targeting a similar market, no less...
Brilliant!
This number seems low considering that another major Vista delay will cause qualified employees to seek employment elsewhere, cause major customers to have more time to consider and switch to alternative technologies, sap the XBox team and reduce everyone's confidence in Microsoft. I'd take Microsoft's total revenue and dock at least 5%...
Go ahead. Do a find on the page. The only place where the number 60 is even in there is in the article's title and in a link back to the SAME article at the bottom of the page.
In fact, this 60% number is made up. Not only would this be impossible in less than a year, 60% of the code in Vista isn't even new to Vista.
Hey Slashdot editors... I know you guys are really into MS bashing and you want to satisfy the thirst that most Slashdotters have for MS blood, but at least check to make sure that articles your posting have a shred of truth in them.
Why was the title of this article "Too" when it was posted before the Windows delay articles???
Because of this.
This message will self-destruct in 5, 4, 3...
Shut up, fools, 99+% of you are going to end up using Vista anyway.
Darn it, I read this post without my tinfoil accessories.
--JoeProgram Intellivision!
You don't work on large software projects? To write To rewrite MORE than HALF of an OS with tens of millions of lines of code in a year!!!!??????? can't be done, whatever comes out of this will be a cobbled together train wreck.
Xbox code in Vista! Think of the possibilites!!
When we get the Blue Screen of Death we can simply wait a few seconds and respawn somewhere nearby our original desktop.
We can use a Gameshark to hack ourselves more time or chances to get our work done.
We can whip out a plasma rifle from "Halo" to frag Clippy with.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
This is a company and thus a risk game. I bet 99% of their customers don't read IT-news. Seldom has Microsoft become a negative topic in the mainstream media.
I pushed back the expected release date from April of 2007 to July Where are all the fanboys claiming it will be out soon because microsoft said so....
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
Apple moved this year's WWDC from July to August thus the need for Microsoft to delay & rewrite 60% of Vista so it can copy all the new geewhiz features of OS X 10.5 Leopard.
;)
Anyone who disagrees with me is a Microsoft fanboy.
You can think as little as you like of Microsoft's management (and you'd have to go pretty low to match me) but I can't see even them being so flagrantly (stupid|dishonest) as to promise a 2007Q1 delivery of a 60% rewrite of something that took five years to get this far.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
But to be worrying about 60% of the code in a one year timeframe, in light of the 10's of millions of lines of code...
If they're actually doing this (I've my doubts...), then Vista won't be out when they say it will be- it'll be delayed by another 2 or so years like Windows 95 ended up being (95 was started approximately 4 years earlier and was only supposed to take a year, year and a half to do- the delays were so bad that the press was making all blow and no go jokes with respect to the codename for the product, "Chicago".).
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Vista will also kill the power supply in my PC?
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
They must be upgrading Vista from .NET 2.0 to .NET 2.1 ;-)
-- Imperial units must die --
Let's see... if true, this would mean that consumers would get a double benefit - they would pay MORE for an Apple PC than a non-Apple PC AND (drumroll, please!) they would get to use "quality" Microsoft software on this PC!
If true, let me tell you what over 90% of the consumers out there would say. These are the people who are not Apple fanboys. "You seriously expect me to pay MORE for an Apple PC than a non-Apple PC just to run Windows?!? When both PCs will run it? Are you out of your freakin' mind?!?" And Apple soon joins DEC in the computer afterlife.
I wonder if all this negative press will affect their stock price [yahoo.com] in trading today. (Makes you feel sorry for their shareholders!)
1) Shareholders don't give a shit about daily price fluctuations. Stock traders do.
2) All this negative press? Yeah, Slashdot really is a cornerstone of the financial world. Especially regarding Microsoft, the insightful, objective, detailed, timely, and accurately predictive nature of Slashdot articles is known worldwide. On the other hand, this could just be a fark in a hurricane...I'm not sure.
OMG Steve is a bald, fat, intense, scary, and incredibly aggresive man. 600 Comments!
No one involved in OSS has such blind frothing hatred for Microsoft.
It's to the point that most of you don't even understand what's going on in both closed and open development today.
Oh. Thanks! :) That was really bugging me. (Short attention span, you know... articles from three days ago are ancient history!)
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
It really doesn't matter if they are rewriting 60% of a certain part of the OS or 60% of the OS in general. The fact is that because they are brining in more programmers to TRY and get the job done shows some panic on MS' part. Now that new programmers have been introduced to an already screwed up dev team I believe things will only get worse. There is an old saying that applies well to this scenario, "Too many cooks spoil the soup".
This is Microsoft's Copland.
Vista still off in the Vistance.
Got this link yesterday over at digg when they were discussing this. . . Interesting read. . http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2006/03/vista-2007-fi re-leadership-now.html
Yeah, all those slashdot readers that own microsoft shares will surely be selling thier shares now, since they just found out the company isn't that great today.
People will spend more on what they perceive as a high quality brand, especially if the machines have what's considered superior design, be that functional, aesthetic, or a combination of both. Truth be told, Apple could probably be more successful than most at selling premium Wintel boxes. I'd guess they'd throw Sony out of the market.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I have been installing and testing Vista since the early betas. To the last one, build 5308. I have seen things getting better all along the way, from better graphics, speed and more reliability. It looked like a mess earlier, but then they cut features and made schedules more realistic.
Build 5308 is feature complete, and has not crashed even once. It supports all the devices on my machine. Now why the hell would they rewrite 60% of a perfectly well running system??? Microsoft has said that most of the work remaining is related to security and performance. I trust them, because I have seen it.
I read the article, I could not find the source of this information. The memo that was included does not speak about this 60% figure. They have not mentioned any other sources. Now why is this making news!!!??
Life is just a conviction.
FLAME ON
MISSING - Sig file. 2 years old black and white and very funny. If found please email me.
1. Internet Explorer 7 still has major security issues that plague Internet Explorer 6
.NET tools in developing bundled applications that will ship with Vista, instead opting for lower level languages that are more suspectible to security issues.
.. oh wait, we don't have updates because we are delaying ALL of our major products..)
2. Microsoft Office is delayed
3. Vista is delayed.
4. Microsoft restructures the Windows division before a major OS release
5. Daniel Lyons from Forbes is underwhelmed with the Vista presentation and finds it complex and of little added value.
6. Microsoft elected not to utilize its
7. Throughout all of this, the security team at Microsoft decided to school Apple on security (I wonder if no one at Microsoft was paying attention?)
8. Businesses sold on the "Software Assurance" and other licensing gimmicks are getting very aggervated at was could be considered bait-and-switch (get SA, get updates
9. There is the possibility of major rewrites to Vista (though until it is confirmed by another source, I'll take it with a grain of salt..).
Interesting.
& then Jobs reaches under the desk and pulls out a minigun. He jumps on the desk and sprays the boardroom with thousands of bullets, laughing manically. An SWAT team storm the building and wrestle Jobs to the ground. Then you woke up.
Folks,
Look at it this way: It takes major cojones to admit to a huge re-write (especially if the re-writes involve core bits and pieces). This is particularly true when you're talking about a system of software that literally affects many tens of millions of computers worldwide.
Looking at it another way. If I'm going to have to use it (at work, that is), I'd rather it be very stable and transparent to my work. If it takes them five more years, that's fine with me. XP spanks the 9x Windows clan, and seems more stable than the Win2000 desktop versions I had to use at work.
The good news is that Vista's delay won't effect my music, my personal computer musings, or personal software development - I'm perfectly happy with various Linux distros, Solaris, and OSX... Windows is fine, my family does use it from time to time, and I'd like to see if Vista can maybe fuel some future competition for better OS software.
A Passionate Independent Musician
perception is reality
...that we'll finally get "2 person solitaire"? Multiplayer pain is always the best. *snickers*
... there are big ol' grammar errors and typos, three in the same paragraph. I haven't even looked through the rest of the article to find more.
"Microsoft has also admitted that it has major problems in it's Windows division and has has immediatly initiated a total restructure of the division, a move that comes after a costly delay in rolling out its Vista program."
Someone, somewhere is laughing at you :D
Great troll though.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
They've been on drugs, were they? If anything, Microsoft is scrambling to keep up with MacOS X; and not the other way round. Besides; who would trade in his shiny ferrari for a trabant?
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Damn, there goes my 401k!!
A totally unrelated study has found that 60% of all MS programming projects will go 60% overbudget, 60 percent of the time and 60% of code will be bug-ridden. An anonymous insider was quoted saying "we are aiming for 59% next year, but in reality it will be 61% in two years".
This just in: The next version of Microsoft Windows will suck. More at 11, 11:05, 11:10, 11:15...
"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
Every day is a bash Microsoft day at Slashdot! But then sadly it is as easy clubing baby seals.
At this point, I think its time to be frank with your team about their progress on Vista and perhaps consider a different approach. I'd recommend renaming Vista to Vistex and spinning up a linux distro. Shouldn't take too long and then you can put all this ugliness behind you and we can all move on.
Respectfully, Long time Windows & Linux User
Microsoft has pulled programmers from the highly succesful Xbox team
So that's why Halo 2 will require Windows Vista!
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Has Microsot ever rewritten 60% of the Windows code? I mean, since Windows NT, most everything has been incremental upgrades. The underlying ntoskrnl.exe runs code about the same across the board, right?
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
is so that it will run on Mac hardware.
As a beta tester for Vista, I'm glad they are rewritting the code. So far, many features are inaccessible. Links are broken. The main computer Administrator cannot access the boot.ini (or whatever it is called in Vista, can not remember at the moment) and the boot.ini for Vista must be edited by going to Windows XP and accessing the Vista partition. And to the post entitled "you Fail it", I'd appreciate it if you would create a more intelligent post. We Slashdotters are not impressed by the abstract nonsense and profanity.
42. 'Nuff said.
Nicely written story. But there's one major flaw that makes it entirely unbelievable.
No airborne chairs.
As I sit at my $7 / hour job, I find it hard to have a lot of pity for major MS shareholders.
oh and that was a *joke,* angry libertarians...
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Or Vista 1.0 will still suck as bad and hard as Win98 1.0 and we'll have to wait until 2008 for something stable.
Seriously.
Think about it.
Microsoft has to wait for hardware to advance enough to run Vista - their roll out schedule relies on AMD/Intel being able to keep up with Moore's Law. Not to mention 1gb graphics cards for the full desktop effects.
Dvorak is post as A/C now?
Angleyne: You can't bend that girder - it's unbendable! Bender: Well I don't know anything about lifting, so that ju
Are any of you getting the feeling that Vista is being done by the same team that did the Big Dig?
This would me MS's second try at a sucessor to the NT/2K/XP legacy. Best of luck - I'd rather see it late with the usual problems than 'ontime' and hopelessly broken.
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Mini-MSFT wrote an extensive rant about why the Microsoft execs should be fired, and more interesting are the readers' responses.
Many Mac watchers, including a large proportion of the fanbois, were very upset by the news of Windows being ported to the Mac. They believe that once software developers know they don't have to port software to the Mac for it to be available to Mac users, software developers will port less and less software. And as, for example, the majority of gamers spend more time in Windows than in OS X, they'll favour Windows software over OS X software. The effective "market share" of OS X, from a software development point of view, will decrease over time.
Plus OS X is obsolete. .NET and Java are where it's at. OS X has dropped further development of the Java OS X APIs and doesn't have an integrated .NET platform (Mono isn't integrated, apps running under it appear as X11 apps using a GNOME theme. Urgh.)
Mac OS X is only the last in a long line of "superior" platforms. At least with this strategy, Apple gets to keep some semblance of thinking different.
How many times do we need to hear from Microsoft PR people( anybody employed by MS ) about the next great OS being rewritten? Didn't the WMF exploit( GDI SetAbortProc code from Windows 3.x ) open ANY eyes to the bull these people shovel out to the public? Remember when Bill Gates said all new development was stopped for a month so they could review all the code for security issues. And they missed the WMF exploit code?
Maybe that's why they keep delaying OS releases... They've got to keep repeating the lies a few more times before it's believed by enough to make a successful launch of the OS. ie, Enough people must be willing to accept the "new" OS on a new computer and not ask for the legacy OS. IHMO
Any news from MS is old news and pretty worthless IMO. It's just PR one way or another.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
what if Microsoft had a dominant but reasonable share of the market, let's say 55% instead of 90%, with the rest being split between two or three viable competitors (i know some would say that the current competitors aren't "viable").
with all the problems and delays they've had, i think they'd be... well, not out of business, but probably reduced to the kind of niche that Apple curently occupies.
i'm not saying that Apple has the perfect solution either, but let's use them as an example: their next-gen OS is actually, literally, *years* ahead of Microsoft's. yes, years, which in software years, is like... umm, years and years! and i know MS has a harder job, in writing an OS that can work across so many platforms... but Apple has, in a much shorter time, written their next-gen OS to work on 3 different processors!
ok, i'm not trying to be an Apple fanboy-- rather i think that what they have done should be the norm, and more companies should and would be out there doing it if this was a more competitive marketplace. it's *software* for god's sake-- isn't this supposed to be the most fast-moving market of all?
there is only the door, the door, the door.
I have roughly 1,500 machines (25% of the total) that would be perfect candidates for a Linux desktop roll-out but I'm still defending our non-MS infrastructure from the "Everyone else uses MS, why don't we?" every day. Actually trying to move away from MS at any level would be suicide at the first hiccup.
Until some major companies publicly dump MS from the desktop the rest of the world is going to stick to the "standard". Even Novell (home of the Novell Linux Desktop) employees still show up with laptops running WinXP (they do use OpenOffice at least) when they make a site visit.
http://digg.com/software/60_Of_Windows_Vista_Code_ To_Be_Rewritten
And yet we don't FSCKING care! If digg is do damned great, why are you here? Go back and play with the other digg idiots. Us Slashdot idiots don't want you here if the most constructive thing you can come up with is "We're already discussing it on digg". I'm sure it is being/has been discussed a lot of places online. Now we're discussing it on Slashdot. Get over it.
Karma be damned!
Nothing to see here
"makes you feel sorry for them"
If MS was to completely fail as a company and lose all their billions overnight, and a meteor was to turn Redmond into a smoking crater on the very same day, then and only then would I have the slightest bit of 'feel sorry' for them. And even then only on a level of sympathy for the people who had to flee the meteor. Anything less is simply reaping what the company has sown in my book.
I thought Slashdot editors were supposed to be technically savvy. How does this story pass their bullshit detector?
60% rewritten is an impossibly bogus number.
Given infinite money it would still take about a decade to rewrite 60% of a modern day OS. Any halfway decent programmer knows this, and Microsoft absolutely would know this.
Propogating this report is just irresponsible.
Apple could thrust one hell of a spear into the beast by releasing osx on standard intel now or very quickly. Yes it would be a frigging bold move but sometimes it takes a bold move when you want to make all the bucks. Yes of course drivers would be a big issue but I think that is a problem that could be solved also.
Got Code?
It's going to be like windows 95 all over again. Too much hype and not much to back it up.
Isn't it more likely that Bill is on the phone to Steve, asking "hey, since your OS runs on Intel and actually works and, you know, actually exists... umm, mind if we put our name on it?" no seriously (or as seriously as i can take this dumb article): why would Apple dump their great OS for one that may or may not be good... if it ever gets finished?
there is only the door, the door, the door.
I'm not sure it's a matter of waiting until it's "right" - perhaps the problems that Microsoft is experiencing are more systemic (no pun intended). In other words, I think it's a distinct possibility that the methodology is at fault, and nothing, short of a complete change in culture, will cure that. If they re-write portions of the code, it would not surprise me if the rewrites had problems of their own.
MS pulled xbox developers to work on vista... so now Vista will be the hottest OS that comes out ;) unless you lift your PC 12 inches off the ground
I love how Microsoft sells all kinds of expensive products to developers, and also publishes books, that recommend programming in such a way as to reuse as much code as possible, and then itself goes and duplicates the same functionality dozens of times over in its own software. For example, Microsoft Office and Microsoft Works are two very much parallel products that duplicate nearly all the code, the proof being that they both work so differently and both have different file formats, etc. And then, why, instead of fixing bugs, refactoring, and improving existing code, do they leave existing crappy code and write new libraries on top of it? Why do they make ten different libraries that provide nearly the same functionality, just with Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows XP, IE4, IE5, IE6, Office 97, Office 2000, Office XP style buttons and visual controls? Look at how many different libraries to do the same exact thing, just that it looks slightly different. Why? This is part of what leads to so much bloat, so many bugs, and so many problems.
I love how Microsoft thought it could go all these years just adding and adding and adding and adding and adding and adding and adding and adding and adding all kinds of bloat and build layer on layer on layer on layer on layer on layer on layer on layer on layer of junk into their software, so they could get it to market faster, only to have their code reach critical mass and blow up in their faces.
I love how Microsoft put so many companies with fine software products out of business, either by buying them out and then turning what used to be perfectly good code into bloated buggy crap by adding tons of unnecessary features and eye candy to what used to be functional apps, or, if the other company wouldn't sell out for peanuts, by making a knock-off product that was inferior in every way, including by not limited to by being bloated and buggy in comparison to what was an elegant solution by the other company that wasn't even their competitor, and then put that other company out of business by using tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of marketing money to make the whole world believe they need to use Microsoft's "solution" instead of the other company's fine product... and I love how they did this only to reach the point where they're wrangling with so many different product lines that their programmers are spread thin and cannot make Windows work properly.
I love how Microsoft ignored security threats long after it became obvious to other companies that these issues need to be addressed, and I love how it has come back to haunt Microsoft now.
I love how I believe Microsoft will fall within a few years and become "just another software company" when superior software from Apple, the free software community, and companies that develop for these systems, reaches the level that businesses will be able to simply chuck Windows and maybe run the one Windows app that isn't yet on the Mac or Linux through VMware or something, and Microsoft will simply fall apart.
I love how Microsoft advertises all kinds of false "Get the facts" bullpoop that isn't true, and people are finding that out.
Just as a side note, why would they delay an OS (as it was stated further up) losing HW manufacturers billions, just to rewrite it for a single HW manufacturer who accounts for les than 10% of the market????
Really, Apple hardware is nothing. Very pretty nothing, but nothing none the less.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
I fall neatly into the Pro-Linux demographic. I run 0 Windows at home and I dislike (an understatement) the way that Windows has managed to damage other aspects of life that I find terribly annoying like file formats and stuff like that.
But if Windows Vista is being rewritten, for example, to remove threat of overflows and all other areas where bad coding habits result in insecure object code, then I heartily applaud Microsoft's balls at putting quality before release schedules. If Microsoft was damaging only their own, image, I could care less about what they do any more. But they have been adversely affecting virtually everything that uses their OS and vitually everything that their OS uses. The annoying bots and self-propogating worms are the primary issues that come to mind.
It would be a huge relief to see the tools stolen by crackers and other criminals removed from their reach. I speak of PCs all over the planet running Windows made into bots and zombies through unpatched and compromised software.
Will this more peaceful internet happen soon after my dream of a safer, more stable, hassle-free windows is released? Nah... last I heard the hardware requirements are too high for people to just run out and buy new machines... but maybe if some of this extensive coding improvement were to be backported to XP in the form of SP3?
"Given infinite money it would still take about a decade to rewrite 60% of a modern day OS. Any halfway decent programmer knows this, and Microsoft absolutely would know this." I don't believe so. To write 100% of the code for an OS from scratch, it takes a few years, not a decade. Only REwriting 60%, with a basis of what failed to work on, it should not take as much time.
42. 'Nuff said.
Now 60% more like Linux! (Hey its not our fault all your code is freely available)
First it was 100% longhorn code that was rewritten ... now its 60% vista code that is going to be rewritten... What the hell is going on ??
I call bullshit. The day Apple abandons OS X is the day hell freezes over. They have spent gobs of money on developing it, XCode, and the entire development platform for it. Not to mention the money spent pushing the development platform, hold conferences, etc. Why in God's name would they just up and drop it because Microsoft (their archenemy AND antithises) is comming out with (WAY behind schedule mind you)a new operating system.
From the parent post:
No more incompabilities. Things are going to "just work".
I actually wonder if this person ever actually used OS X, because if they did they would realize that things that just work is already the experience offered by Apple and sought after by Mac users. I recently converted my sister from a dell to an iBook. Under her Dell, she (not computer literate mind you) never figured out how to get pictures off of her digital camera. She ended up in driver hell and nothing worked. When she got the iBook, she plugged in the camera, opened iPhoto, and immediately and easily downloaded all of her pictures. No extra drivers, no mess, nothing. Same deal with the printer.
An operating system/hardware architecture combo experience is more than just the sum of its parts.
There is NO way 60% of Vista will be "rewritten". Not by November. Not by January. Not by 2009. It won't be rewritten. Possibly modified - but not rewritten. Having 60% of the world's largest OS codebase "rewritten" in under a year is, well, beyond the laws of physics. If they haven't been able to ship 100% of it in 5 years - and they are "feature complete" as they say they are for the latest CTP (BS, IMHO) then it cannot happen. Article headline was grabbing for readers. That is all.
Are you sure this isn't from the Onion? :)
Everything I need to know about copyrights I learned from Slashdot.
Because half the staff working on the backwards compatibility updates for the 360 are now likely working on sodding vista. For crying out loud, Microsoft, just release Windows Media Centre as a stand alone product to plug the gap, and get them back on making Star Wars Battlefront 2 work on the console I spent two hundred and eighty quid to own.
</sarcasm>
Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
One of my favorite books. It's disturbing to me to see the behaviors Brooks points out being repeated again and again. His book should be required reading for upper management in any development organization.
Only software written for Mac OS/Mac OS X "just works" under Mac OS X (and since the Intel switch, not even that's true.) The comment was pretty specific: no more incompatabilities - everything "just works". Try running your Windows software under OS X and see what "just works" today.
The day that MS releases a Service Pack full of bug/compatability fixes and not security patches, is the day that they've shown they were finally serious about security.
Good luck to 'em rewriting 60% of their codebase, but at least it means we'll get XP SP3 out before Vista.
I'd rather see XP SP3 than a completely unvetted OS being propagated across millions of desktops.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Okay! In one second, without reading it more than once, what exactly did this mean?
When I quoted it, did you read it or simply skim over it in a vain effort to find something, anything, that was concrete and had some connection with the real world?
From the user's perspective, what are these products like? I can see the advantages of operating this way to Microsoft, but what in it is exciting to the end user who actually has to pay for this stuff?
If a company can only communicate in gutless, meaningless, abstract language, customers won't understand it and the press is going to stop caring. We're seeing this process begin in the Forbes editorial also cited by Slashdot.
D
Mac OS X represents Microsoft's last genuine competitor. I can see Microsoft delaying Vista for a few months if they could make minor changes that would make Apple happy about switching to it.
This is not to imply Apple is switching to it. I'm just saying, the logic you're using doesn't really work.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Microsoft has made some bad descisions in thier lifetime, but if anyone here honestly belives microsoft would re-write 60% of its code then there is no hope for you all.
Simply put, Vista WILL be released October 2006, 2 months before CES 2007.. seems like a dumb idea to showcase a 2-month old OS at CES.
This reporter does not know what he is talking about, he is uninformed making wild guesses and claims about something he knows nothing about.
*.sig
Someone should send them a copy of the Mythical Man Month. I'm no MS hater... I wish them luck... but this does not bode well for Vista.
Cheers.
It doesn't matter if OS X is technically better than Windows if nobody writes software for it
A lot of small and big companies are developing and delivering a LOT of software for Mac OS X. On Mac OS X you have software, often of good quality, for every type of task. If you have been a member of the developer community you would have noticed that since Mac OS X came out the traffic on Cocoa, Core Audio, OpenGL, Java, (even Carbon) developer lists has steadily increased (radically in some cases in the last couple of years). There are more folks then ever before developing software directly for Mac OS X using Cocoa.
Yet another journalist reporting on things he/she doesn't understand. The fact that this made it on Slashdot is even more ridiculous that the article's headline itself.
This is business as usual for MS. We've got a spate of bad news so the stock drops a bit. In a few days they'll announce something shiny and it will jump back up. Then, lots of people who aren't me will make lots of money.
Wait a few months then the cycle begins again.
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
On the upside, Windows has needed a major rewrite since about 1995, so things are looking up.
________ Interesting Timing
The timing of this is interesting. It's coming after the European Commission lambasted their documentation. perhaps that horrid documentation is what they actually use and, when they went whole hog trying to document what they had in a sane manner, they realized in their guts just how horridly crusty their crown jewels really are.
In any case, With this major of a rewrite, I'm expecting Vista to be the kind of fiasco that ME was. I'd strongly suggest that people wait at least until the first service pack before they put this thing in production.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Yes, but since HAL would agree, using FPS programmers in this context leaves me a with a edge of nervousness.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
See their many, many comments on the MiniMSFT blog
Some particularly choice ones include this and this
Again, I'm not saying they are switching, I'm just saying that this is another of the arguments against that do not stand up to scrutiny.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Why, that's how exactly Alienware went out of business.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Actually, the ability to run Windows on a Mac is a blessing. This is why Apple allows it. They could have just locked it out.
If you can run Windows on a Mac, then the effective "market share" of OS X increases. More people can buy a Mac, gain all the benefits of OS X, and then still use Windows if they have certain Windows specific applications that need to be run. From a software development point of view, it's easier than ever to port an application over to OS X, because they it now uses the familiar x86 architecture.
As soon as it's possible for Windows to run virtually from within OS X, it will be even better. At this point, you'll never even have to leave OS X if you want to run some Windows specific applications.
I'm no Mac fanboy. Far from it. I've never owned a Mac or any Mac products, but now for the first time I'm considering it.
As long as you can run Adobe products in OS X, it will always be the preferred platform for creative professionals.
No way man! Putting teh Xbox t33m on Vista totally r0x0rz c0z they can make it int0 a Vboxx!!! So I can h4ve teh spreadsh33ts for my MMO ch4rz on teh s4me b0xx as my g4mezz!!! 4nd I can g3t my b05s to buy me a Vboxx for w0rk c0z it5 b3tt3r th4n my c0mp, and I c4n pl4y g4mezz and just alt-tab wh3n h3 comez in!!!
*cough*, *cough*, *wheeze*...
Argh, sorry; I hope reading all that leetspeak wasn't as painful as typing it was!
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
I heard that the programmers aren't modifying / rewriting the existing code, rather, they're just working on SP1. See, no scramble!
-STankyG
People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances...
...publishes or airs negative news about Microsoft.
Why on earth would you have entertainment and media center functionality embedded in the base operating system?
Hell, I heard about Longhorn years ago and they sure haven't been "scrambling" to do anything with that.
I first heard about Longhorn under another name, in the early 90s when it was called Cairo. Take a look at the "feature list" of that vaporware sometime. Then recall that the feature list was in response to OS/2's actual features, that existed in 93...
How far we haven't come in 14 years.
BTW, take a look at the original feature list for Longhorn, and the current list. It's interesting too. And we're now 2 years later than the original "Longhorn" date, and only 14 years past Cairo.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I remember the big flop-n-twitch fest Apple had over the successor to 7.5.5. What a fiasco they went through. Blue box, yellow box, Copeland, BeOS, what do we do!? Then they restructured, bought NeXT, got Steve Jobs, and reoriented themselves (which took them a long while to get back on an even keel). I know it's not the same situation, but it feels like a familiar flop-n-twitch fest that results from lack of focus and direction. Dream up new and exciting features, but rather than prioritizing what's most important early, just start slashing features until you end up with the same OS? That doesn't make sense. It looks to me that they are trying to get their heads wrapped around a project that's gone on a little too long in development and without strict oversight. I'm probably wrong, but it would be good to see them pull Vista out of a tailspin of bad news.
Please tell me you confused windows 98 with 95... windows 95 ushered in the modern computer age...
I'm no MS fanboy, but if you think the millions of people using the internet would be there without 95, you've been smoking some good stuff.
Apple drop OS X in favour of Windows? Windows Vista that doesn't even exist yet?
:-)
Uh, screw that. I switched to OS X because I didn't want Windows. I wanted something with a UNIX flavour and development environment, but I still wanted to run office applications. Cygwin is a nice stopgap, but it doesn't solve everything. Linux is getting close enough to the ideal that should Apple switch, I'm gone. As nice as the hardware is, I switched because of the OS.
"Jobs smiles. "That's perfect for us. Means we keep control over the so-called Macintosh experience. That's really the only reason we've stuck with our own operating systems for so long.""
The whole thing sounds like somebody's wild imagination. I'm rather doubtful Jobs would refer to it as the "so-called Macintosh experience".
Hey, I have an even crazier idea: why doesn't Microsoft drop Vista, since it isn't done yet, and just port OS X more widely, with a legacy Windows compatibility box. Sounds like a "win-Win" situation to me
Is that before or after it ships? Badda-bing!
You sometimes can get a late project back on track by adding manpower, but you need to add more than a first approximation would suggest, and the earlier you do it the better. It's remarkable if a PHB even makes the first approximation to add manpower, much less considers (or understands) the learning curve, and thus Brook's law may be relied on in modern practice.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
...it was touted as the most heavily beta-tested software ever produced. Or at least that's what the marketing folks led you to believe. Something tells me they won't be pitching Vista the same way if they are doing major re-writes while scrambling to get it out the door. Not that folks in marketing care.
If you *read* the article (a radical concept) and not just the headline you will notice that they are talking about re-writing 60% of the "media part" of the operating system to wit "has pulled programmers from the highly succesful Xbox team to help resolve many problems associated with entertainment and media centre functionality inside the OS.". while still a massive undertaking (anyone willing to bet that the media part of the vista OS is larger than the linux kernel?) this is not the same as re-writing 60 percent of the whole OS. Win2k supposedly had 30,000,000 or so lines of code, assuming Vista is the same size as Win2k in terms of lines of code (probably isnt but lets assume) thats 18,000,000 lines of code in less than a year with time for development and testing (ok so Microsoft and testing go together like bull's and china shop's but they have to at least make sure the damn thing builds...). What scares me is that MS has always taken a monolithic approach to its operating systems..so how is rewriting 60% of one of the core area's of functionality going to break other stuff in other new, interesting and expensive ways down the line..contrast this with the Linux/FreeBSD approach where things are modular and you avoid circular dependencies, the kernel is seperate to the UI which is seperate to the libraries required for other software...ah well I cant wait for Vista Im already getting t-shirts with "I told you so printed up".
With 60% being needed to be rewritten isnt the beta testing period going to have to be that much longer? I personally dont care when it comes out. XP is good enough for me, especially since I use 3rd party apps to help plug a lot of the holes, such as anti-virus, anti-spyware, a better firewall (one that blocks outgoing not just incoming). Even with all those third party apps running, it sounds like my machine will still run faster and better than what Vista is going to require.
Nice fanfic, and not so farfetched, but I don't see much truth to it. Mac is supposedly releasing Leopard towards the end of the year; if Vista were being ported to the Mac why would they spend millions on a successor to Tiger?
Who's going to buy a $50 Firaxis or MacGames port if they can get the PC version for $10 from the store and just need Windows to run it? How many of the more obscure applications are going to be ported to Windows if their already meagre sales figures would only be bumped up by 5% for such a port, despite the months of work needed to get the program written, if you can just tell Mac users to use Windows?
This is why many Mac fans were absolutely furious to hear Windows had been ported.
This sounds like bull for so many reasons it is hard to start, but I'd list some reasons it seems absurd.
- The assumption that Apple matters to Microsoft is way off. Apple is a prominent but hardly viable competitor to Microsoft. It occupies a niche that MS tolerates (token competition) and even makes a little money from. But not even the iPod has boosted the Mac beyond its minority status.
- I'm sure the iPod is a thorn in the side for MS, but you can bet for sure that Gates wouldn't spend billions in delays to support Mac without massive, MASSIVE concessions in return. Including killing or otherwise diluting the iPod brand.
- Second you could not beat Vista into any kind of shape acceptable to an OS X user in 6 months let alone a year, short of virtualizing one or other system and allowing it to coexist with the other as a guest. Both operating systems are too distinct. A dumb cocoa / carbon port is not enough. You're talking frameworks, a Unix environment, the look and feel of every single application, the position of buttons within dialogs, the filing system. Everything
- Apple have already gone through one traumatic transition that must have annoyed some of its users. A move to Windows would infuriate the remainder and basically anihilate its developer base. After all, if its running Windows, why program for the Mac at all. They'd just be yet another PC maker. It would be as nonsensical as programming exclusively for Packard Bell machines.
- Where's the value add for Apple if it runs Windows? If a consumer is faced between buying an Apple running Windows and a Dell / Acer / Compaq / Sony etc. running Windows, what reason is there left for choosing an Apple?
- Apple has nothing to fear in the music space from either MS or Sony until both of them pull their fingers out when it comes to their confusing as hell and anal DRM. Plays for sure my arse.
- Finally, that Apple would trust Microsoft that much that it would be akin to allowing a mental patient to cup your furry balls in his hand while he holds a pair scissors in the other.
Now, strange things have happened before, e.g. AOL bending over for MS when they had their own browser, Apple moving to Intel. The move for Apple probably made sense, the AOL one certainly didn't. But this way out there.If there is any convergence between the two I'd suggest it is what I touched on slightly above - virtualization. It might serve Apple quite well to be able to run Windows apps at near native speeds, but even that path has dangers. Remember OS/2? That could run Windows 3.1 programs at near native speeds. The net result is few companies even bothered writing native OS/2 apps since what was the point?
Someone at Microsoft might ought to ask Frederick P. Brooks for advice right about now.
I'd rather they wait and get it right before releasing Vista rather than going through the excruciating process of installing security updates/service packs/second editions on a hastily released product.
"hastily released"?
Isn't this puppy already about 2 years late?
If that's "hastily released", Debian should start avoiding coyotes.
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Scrambling has to do with sound and fury, with temperature, not with progress. Once you understand that, it does in fact make sense. They've evidently pulled programmers off of other projects to complete this. They've pulled features over the last 5 years to try to meet deadlines they've repeatedly missed. They're missing a KEY selling season for their "partner". And there's talk of rewriting MAJOR portions of the code in the last 20% (year) of the development cycle?
That sounds like "scrambling" to me.
All i read is how the succession of Jim Allchin will be handled after Vista is done and released. Jim Allchin is set to leave when Vista is done. So nothing about really changing that much code in the memo.
Most likely the want MCE to work with the new xbox360 and asked some programmers on the xbox-team to help to finish the code.
MS has serious pressure from businesses to get Vista out in 2006. In 2002, they started the Software Assurance Program that allowed all updates to their software for three years. Many companies signed up in 2003 since they assumed the next generation OS and another Office update would be released by then. Here's an article explaining more about it: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1619960,00.as p
It's coming close to the end of 2006 and if Vista is not shipped before, these businesses are going to be quite angry. MS has major pressure to get Vista out this year and as such, quality is quite possibly going to be lacking at time runs out.....
+4 Interesting!?! Some of you people are on crack. Stop playing WoW and develop a sense of humor already. This post was intended to be a spoof. ::/
The Splintered Mind - Overcoming
This is sounding remarkably similar to Duke Nukem Forever!
Sorry to respond to my own post, but MS Office is under the same pressure to be released to businesses as Vista is. http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Office+2007+to+be+la te%2C+too/2100-1012_3-6053504.html
I have no doubt that Vista and Office will be released to businesses in 2006 in some form or another.
Does anyone have pointers to how the cashflows at Microsoft?
I've been taged to give a talk about moving from Microsoft to Open Source, and I was wanting to call into question their cashflow and how their cashflow will hurt their ability to patch their software.
Not only does this ignore the fact OS X Leopard is due out at the end of the year/early next year, it ignores that Apple already considered and rejected Windows NT in the 90s. Apple also doesn't need to port the Carbon APIs to Windows, because the Mac Toolbox is already packed into Quicktime for Windows, which is where Carbon was first originated. And iTunes is not implemented in Windows using packed in Carbon APIs; it's a port to Win32. Finally, Apple doesn't want to wait on Microsoft for OS updates. Six years is too long for Apple.
You're taking a facetious post from MacRumors and turning it into actual speculation.
"Sufferin' succotash."
My understanding is this highly successful product line is highly subsidised and costing Microsoft hundreds millions of dollars.
Does anyone else think that this might be linked to reports that most of Vista and the correlated application suite was coded in native languages as opposed to using the .NET framework?
.NET, I'm referring to more suitable applications like Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, Outlook, etc.
Personally, I thought it was pretty hypocritical of Microsoft to continue pushing their framework on Windows developers while, at the same time, releasing new software compiled from C and the like. And before you tell me that kernels are supposed to be extremely fast and, therefore, not suited to
I mean, why else would "60%" of the Vista code have to be rewritten? Either it's a framework port or several teams within Microsoft seriously dropped the ball when Vista's architecture was being designed.
Even aside from that...who cares?
Look, I don't like Microsoft. They piss me off a great deal. I also don't like their software, which I do have to interact with more than I like. (Currently Visual C++ Embedded is the largest steaming pile of unstable and broken shit by way of development software than I have ever seen -- I cannot imagine how anyone, anywhere, successfully writes Win CE software without going batshit insane.)
But I simply cannot see someone getting enjoyment from watching some sort of nonsense in internal project management on a Microsoft project. I'm sure that occasionally Bill Gates trips and falls flat on his face. But that really does not provide me with any kind of cathartic happiness.
Microsoft is a Very Large Company. I'm sure that they have things going wrong for them every single day, and we could read about things every single day. But, really, who cares?
Let me tell you the only thing that really matters about Vista -- it's pretty unexciting, based on watching people poke at the betas. Take WinXP, add some minor features (the Wikipedia Windows Vista page is *way* out of date, and lists a ton of Vista features that have been cut), and slap an ugly interface on it. The interface will doubtlessly piss off a large number of OS X users when they see it, since it's basically OS X but done wrong. The most egregious offender, IMHO -- you know how OS X makes windows transparent so that you can use the data behind them? When Vista copied this one, it *blurred* the image behind it, apparently because someone at Microsoft figured that more visual effects equals better. Unfortunately, this also reduces the background image to a few vague dirty smears, completely eliminating the functionality of the entire thing.
The rest of it is all a bunch of internal project management nonsense at Microsoft that I can treat as a black box. The only thing I care about is whether or not it's going to turn out something that I want. It isn't, but I'm sure that I'm going to have to put up with it when it comes out anyway.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
MS might have issues.
1. Vista will be used largely on new 64bit systems, MS probably planned this for an itanium based 64 bit and is now rewritting lots of it for AMD 64 bit.
2. MS has been loosing many of thier best and brightest to startups, they don't pay particularyly well and the days of becoming a stock zillionaire are largely over
3. When I go to tech conferences I'm seeing more early adopter types using macs (say 10% instead of 3-5% 3 years ago). This is very bad for MS they actually need to come out with something superior to the mac, and their initial threat of breaking legacy sw with vista is going to have to change.
Until our children are no longer molded into castrated sheep democracy remains a fake and a danger. -A. S. Neill
Whether or not the article is entirely accurate, I think people are over-reacting to how big a deal it is to rewrite 60% of the code in the operating system.
Now I know, that's a lot of code, but I routinely rewrite large portions of code in all the projects I work on. Many times I'll write some large chunk of code and many better design decisions become apparent during the process of writing the code, so I'll rewrite it from scratch.
Not only is the rewrite far superior code, but I write it in orders of magnitude less time than the original code.
That being said, I still have fairly low expectations of Vista, but rewriting code is no big deal, it should just make their product better.
I'm dubious about this number. How many millions of lines of code is Windows supposed to be now? And they are going to rewrite sixty percent of it before sometime next year? How fast can these people crank out code? This sounds like another PR stunt to me.
Windows on the Mac is what I've wanted for years. I would pay a 20% premium for that.
- I voted for Nintendo and against Bush
Entertainment and media centre functionality are part of the OS when you consider Digital Restrictions Management.
If this article is accurate, almost certainly the problems are with DRM, not with getting a picture to show up on the monitor.
Us Slashdot idiots don't want you here if the most constructive thing you can come up with is "We're already discussing it on digg".
It's "We Slashdot idiots."
"Sufferin' succotash."
So that means that we should worry about that other 40% only uh?
Apple does matter to Microsoft. If Apple's Mac OS ever tanks, and dissappears, Microsoft will once again be tried over antitrust laws.
As someone who works on Windows Media Center for Vista, I can certainly say that we're not rewriting a bunch of code. I'm using MCE for Vista on my living room PC right now.
Look at what's being fixed: entertainment and media center crap. Y'know, they'd win over people like me if they'd strip that junk out to begin with and just release an OPERATING SYSTEM.
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
Don't you remember how hard it was to keep current with Windows?
::Upgrading::
::Upgrad--
I got my first PC with 3.11...Blam Windows 95 comes out.
I plunk down the cash and buy 95...oops...hey...here's Windows 98....
Microsoft: Hey, are you enjoying Windows 98?
Me: Yup.
Microsoft: Well, here's a SECOND edition, haha, gotcha!
Me: Fuck, upgrade time.
Me: Haha! Upgraded You Microsoft bastards.
Microsoft: Yeah, well, Microsft is about to drop ze boooooomb! Win2k! Windows ME!
Me: Motherfucker...
Microsoft: Are you done upgrading yet?
Me: No, about 3/4 of the way.
Microsoft: Well, that's cool, just make sure you upgrade to XP when you're done.
Me: XP?
Microsoft: Yeah, during the last hour or so...when you were installing 2k...we completely developed and released a new version.
Me: Really?
Microsoft: Yeah, and I also peed in your house plant, sorry.
Seriously folks. Microsoft finally manages to stick to a version of Windows for more than 20 minutes and you're bitching? I for one like the fact that my software hasn't been made useless by an OS upgrade in a few years.
I hope people realize that what he quoted is totally out of context. The person he quoted said nothing even remotely close to what that statement implies...
I think any shareholders of Microsoft deserve exactly what they get. Buying shares in an unethical company because they will make you money is (or at least should be) a long-term losing proposition. It's just sad that it loses them nothing more than money.
Fund a bank robbery, go to jail. Set up a corporate shell and get people to buy your stock, then have the 'corporation' rob the bank, and suddenly *poof* no responsibility for the investors aside from financial responsibility.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
This article has to have misstated the issue. Not even MS is arrogant enough to believe they can pull this off.
Now, I must preface this with the disclaimer that I myself prefer operating systems other than Windows. However, this is not an attempt to flame; by all means use what works best for you.
With that said, did anyone actually read the entirety of the article?
To be fair to Microsoft, this article was more than slightly misleading - and for that matter, contains little information relevant to its headline. The only mention about rewriting two thirds of Vista's codebase is in the headline and in the subheading that directly follows it. Whether informed by "an insider at Microsoft" or otherwise, there is simply not enough solid information to comment upon, let alone fill an entire slashdot thread with baseless conjecture.
We're all hoping for an improved operating system from Microsoft. God knows it would make my job many magnitudes easier without having to deal with the joys of insecure machines.
But please, withhold judgement until we receive a finished product.
It was all GPLed code that accidently got in.
"He's a real midnight golfer"
Don't get your hopes up. From what I understand they are simply rewriting the media center components of the "consumer" (not corporate) version of the OS to make it more compatible with Intel's VIIV.
Mod me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
You heard it here first: Up to 95% of Linux will be rewritten before the v2.8 release of the Linux kernel, according to Linus Torvald's secretary's boyfriend.
Hence the reason I said its token competition. It's a platform that MS can point and wave to when claiming they're not a monopoly, even if OS X + Linux + others occupy only a small fraction of desktop deployments.
It's simply ludicrous to make the assertion that they are going to rewrite 60% of the code. If they want to make their new 1Q2007 target, they don't even have time to review that much code.
That said, there is, of course, something serious going on...
Shortly after another Windows delay announcement last year, Allchin announces he's going to retire, but stay long enough to get Vista out the door. Pretty innocuous... Then there's a period of everything appears hunky-dory, then Microsoft holds an internal "Blue-hat" conference for internal folks to demo issues and exploits to MS products -- and by several accounts there were not only some doozies, but all sorts of hissy fits were thrown by management. There's a flurry of meetings, another announcement about Windows being delayed concurrent with some pretty drastic restructuring in the Windows division, and a new division head that will take over for Allchin a little sooner than expected.
Now you're seeing articles about last-minute rewrites and fixes (not just the one cited), some very lack-luster press-coverage (buzz-kill for MS' planned media blitz), and reported hundreds of millions of dollars in cost overruns, etc. Add to that Microsoft's target of converting 50% of Windows users to Vista in 24 months (ostensibly so that the OS division can remain profitable).
It paints a pretty bleak picture of the state of Microsoft and its management. Vista, when it does eventually come out, may well be the best OS MS has ever released. The real question is, will that be good enough?
I don't know, but I'm willing to bet MS doesn't have an idea either.
help resolve many problems associated with entertainment and media centre functionality inside the OS
The way I read this, 60% of the code that implements the entertainment and media centre functionality needs a rewrite --- not 60% of Vista. This is much more consistent with the fact that the Vista Business Edition (whatever MS is actually calling it) is still on schedule to release this year. With this interpretation, 60% does not seem totally out of line. Heck, I'd vote for re-writing 100% of media Player if it was up to me!
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
I was responding to comments about Mac OS X not having software, software developers and that said developers aren't using Apple specific technologies (like Cocoa) by making a point that to date Mac OS X has spawned a large increase (accelerating in recent months) in Macintosh developers and on lists often discussing Mac OS X only technologies.
1) Games are a special case since the often have little to no strong bindings to the UI of the operating system or specific features of the operating system. They are often far easier to port to any number of operating systems (or hardware). So it is still likely that developers will port games to Mac OS X just like they have been (and like they will do to various gaming consoles).
2) If someone wants to buy a possibly cheaper version of a game and run it in windows so be it but don't ignore that you would have to get Windows on your Mac (which costs money, has to be setup, maintained, etc.). In other words running Windows on you Mac isn't zero cost or even a one time cost (in time or money). Also the market will respond to pricing pressures so the delta between prices will likely narrow.
3) Mac users, ones that like to use Mac OS X, will demand by way of voice and purchasing power Mac native versions of the software they want to have/use. If a developer choses not to provide a Mac native version they leave the door open for a competitor to come in a fill that need. Yes some developer may use the Windows option as an escape hatch but by doing so they put themselves at a disadvantage to a developer that takes the time to port to or directly developer for Mac OS X.
4) It is likely that having the Windows option (ideally via virtualization, aka guest OS) will fuel Macintosh hardware sales by removing additional (often perceived) barriers in the market place. This will expand the exposure and usage of Mac OS X which will expand the market for Mac OS X native software... that will fuel developers to attempt to claim that market.
Yes it is early to know the effects of things such as this but I think in a year or two my view of how this will play-out will be proven.
... 'cept when Steve hung up, everyone in the room around him, having held it in for the duration of the call, started laughing uncontrollably.
"Shhh, shhh, everbody. Quiet *snicker*, he can hear you. Oh, sorry Bill, that was just the TV."
This too, will end.
I was surprised after I bought the ridiculously expensive XP-Pro. I found an O'Reilly book "Windows XP Hacks" and
another book "Windows XP Secrets" and found that I could change all sorts of things.
I hope Vista will be like this, except that I would rather not have to pay an extra $200 to just to get the extra
functionality. I hear that they are actually bring back the "DOS like" command line in a more useful form.
I can wait for Vista. I don't use XP much, running FreeBSD for anything truly important, but its nice to at least
get Windows running the way you like.
I will say this once... My connection to Apple is through the OS (in the same way many here are connected to Linux). Kill the OS, and the dominos will start to fall against Apple. I will reconsider purchasing an iPod when my current one breaks, I will no longer purchase songs from the iTunes Music Store, I will no longer upgrade or subscribe to iLife, iWork, .mac... I will stop evangelizing the OS, software and hardware.
The OS is the key to Apple's survival. I'm VERY comfortable with them expanding into the Windows world. I'm comfortable with them offering their pro applications for Vista... but KILL OS X, and millions of Mac users will simply switch to a cheap Dell box, running Windows or Linux.
The hardware IS more expensive... the software IS more expensive, etc. etc., but I'm willing to pay it because of the OS... NOT because of the iPod or iTunes!
Given the releases they're going to, the year they're going to them and the releases they're coming from, Vista and Office 2007 are total non-starters. They probably decided to wait for Longhorn, but have given up. Technology refresh cycles in large businesses are typically five years, and therefore the huge wave of work done for Y2K is coming to the end of its life. Since only the lunatic fringe takes operating systems in the first year of their life, Microsoft's delay for 2004/5 to 2006/7 for Longhorn has neatly made it irrelevent in many businesses.
ian
In a related news item, a recent survey shows that four out of five people don't care about recent surveys.
Funny.
I was expecting a little double-cross from Jobs at the end.
"Now that we have them busy we can work on NEXT_COOL_THING and let them founder trying to rewrite and delay. We can release for the holiday season and MS won't have anything to show. Hahahahaha!" He smiles and places his pinkie knowingly at the corner of his mouth.
Rewriting over half of the code does NOT mean that they're being less hasty. It only shows that they've discovered a fundamental flaw in their designs. Whether the end product is hasty or not is an different matter, but given the marketing model Microsoft forces upon itself, it will probably be even hastier now than previous products.
I don't get it. So Apple is going to split up into Macintosh and iTunes groups. Okay. They're also dumping OSX. Stupid idea, but I'm still following.
Now, they're also apparently working with Dell et al. Hmm. So they're no longer making hardware OR an OS.
I guess in MacRumors Crazyland, there are enough people willing to shell out for iLife to earn more profit than Apple's current business model, eh?
I also like how porting Windows to Macs "spells disaster" for OSX. Because once Mac users get their hands on the smooth, aesthetically appealing, secure, and bug-free experience that is Windows XP, they'll NEVER go back to OSX!!
Rewritten badly? Although I see this as a good decision to write the code on the OS as I feel that people do gain knowledge of not only the language but how to better improve things as they been working at them for a long time, but at the same time, Microsoft has to do something regarding the level of security and I think that they're taking the right approach in doing so. The holes in Microsoft's OS contribute to a lot of the issues we face today on the Internet.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
I mean, that's the classic wikipedia problem, right? If 100 encyclopedists can't write about everything, surely 1 million will be able to cover the entire Earth and it's history, right? ...Or maybe they'll all just screw around with their own biographical entries and flameing political figures.
OS X is cool and OS X is awesome ONLY because it is an exclusive club.
Windoze and Lin-sux are the for the masses. If OS X was made for the masses, it would suck.
The ONLY reason I can think that "Vista" has not been released yet is because the "probation" period of the DOJ settlement is due to expire (probably) in November 2007.
Microsoft is a maximum profits kind of company and Windows is one of their Cash Cows. If it wasn't due to the fact that until Nov 2007 they have to somewhat play by "fair" rules, there would have already been at least 1 newer version of windows, I mean it has been over 4 YEARS !
Microsoft is just playing the stall game to keep itself in the media, trying to keep the public view on Windows and not GNU/Linux or whatever. Mark my words, the next version of Windows (Vista) will be released mid-Nov 2007, just in time for Christmas 2007. And yes it will probably include their own media player, web browser, Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, Photo Editor, Desktop Search, Kitchen Sink, etc.
just look at the homepage of Slashdot
that's a lot of bad PR for any company in one day
In other news, the local pro-life newsletters had several scathing articles about abortion.
I wonder if all this negative press will affect their stock price [yahoo.com] in trading today
Not as much as if Vista was released and immediately barfed and/or succumbed to massive virus infection out of the box...
If I were waiting on Vista I'd be annoyed that it wasn't out, but then if I was such as big MS Software user then XP would still likely be doing ok for me, although lacking improved 64-bit/dual-core support. If I got a bunch of Vista machines that immediately started crashing or were infected in the new few weeks, I'd be a lot more pissed than annoyed.
I'd say taking the time to fix things is not a bad plan, and 60% sounds like BS to me. As the article seems to focus a lot on multimedia components it could be that 60% of the multimedia core needs revamping.
From the article:
"It was originally going to ship in 2003. Then 2005. Then 2006. Now in early 2007."
If this OS release slips one more time, I'll have no choice but to dub it "Windows Vista Forever", in honor of the Duke Nukem game of similar name, and similar development life cycle...
Take off every Sig. For great justice.
I give you that Photoshop is still significantly better than GIMP, and I give you that (3d) gaming on Linux is an exercise in frustration. For these reasons and the sake of convenience (not having to mess around with Wine if I come across a Windows-only app I must use), I do in fact have a Windows partition.
But you can cram that MS Office superiority bullshit up your ass. MS Word only has a few relatively obscure exclusive features that few people care about (with the exception of a few languages they support), and these are more then outweighed by the advantages OpenOffice.org brings to the table. OpenOffice is the king of formats. OpenOffice is actually _better_ than MS Office when it comes to opening old Word/Excel format documents, and the OpenDocument format is superior in every way to MS's formats.
browser that works with their bank's website
Firefox works just fine on my bank's website, and my mom's bank's website. I have encountered very few websites, banking or otherwise, that flat out refuse to work with Firefox. I'm sure it's very annoying when it happens, but I can count the number of times it's happened to me on one hand, and I've used Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox extensively and exclusively since its release. I think that Linux/Firefox's resistence to malware more than makes up for this maybe-once-a-year inconvenience of having to boot Windows and use IE.
Windows still has its areas where it is very clearly superior, but it's simply FUD to claim that it's superior in EVERY area. In areas such as word processing and web browsing, I would argue that we passed parity a long time ago and life is actually significantly easier with Linux--especially in regards to viruses, spyware, and updating issues (in Ubuntu, you get updates for every program on your computer simultaneously, requiring only 2 or 3 mouse clicks to download and install. Compare that to individually applying security patches to every program on your XP partition, then having to reboot.)
Do they actually plan to rewrite 60% of the whole lot of what "Windows XP" is now and "Windows Vista" is going to be, or just 60% of the transition from "XP" to "Vista"?
I.e.: Did they realize how much Windows is b0rked (if it is so), and decided to fix most of it in one go, or did they just realize that (about) 60% of the new stuff isn't working too well, and should be treated to a go-over?
Not trolling, i'd just like to get a clearer idea on those latest news from Microsoft.
Any hint appreciated.
sig? Oh, that sig...
http://outcampaign.org/
wtf...
I don't know why, but that was the most terrifying thing I've ever read. Steven King is nothing beside you. Wow, it made me shiver uncontrollably.
I wonder if all this will make people questionate the long term possibilities of Microsoft. If people start to questionate, they'll see that there is no evidence out there to support that MS isn't doomed (except for a few weard contability results). But I can't really fell sorry for the shareholders.
Rethinking email
I was recently contacted by a recruiter on the OS team specifically for WinFS. Suffices to say, I've heard that the MS recruitment engine is going full bore to try and stack dev teams with people in certain problem areas. 'course when I asked if it was a competing team for the present WinFS team I didn't get a response. There were several positions on the WinFS team; a project lead, sr. developers, and lots of testers. Given the trouble of OFS previously and now WinFS; I suspect WinFS won't be part of Vista.
But I think a lot of the problems can be attributed back to Microsoft's development processes. When I was there in '98, anything resembling software engineering was the pervue of the specific team leads and pms. The "process" behind several projects was throw a couple architects at a problem, add 40 developers, and mid way through the projected development cycle add 80 testers (who oddly end up doing more than testing.)
The entropy and complexity with this number of people is truly astounding. No wonder stuff don't work. And if I were to tell her "give me 5 'smart', experienced, well paid developers, as much pizza and pop as we can consume, and I'll give you a rock solid, fast, simple, and relational FS in 6 months" she'd probably tell me I'm an idiot.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
apple fanboy go away. I have seen quite a few (over 10 different modles) cameras not work on apple OS X (10.4, 10.3, never used olde 10, don't get me started on 9.X or older)
updating the camera bios to work with an OS is not a fun thing to do all thie time.
Best way to deal with ANY digital camera, treat the camera like a USB\Firewire drive. Import (copy) the files (pictures for you apple fanboy confused people) onto your disk drive first. Then import them into your photo program.
I have seen programs that do not like camera abc but never have I seen ANY program complain about taking the picture off the disk drive.
Also doing it this way means that you the user controle what application you want to use. Instead of using Kodak's, Cannon's, software and preferred photo editing program.
Apple went through a couple of years trying to develop the next version of its OS while still maintaining complete backwards compatability? They ran into a roadblock and just couldn't do it.
... it bought into a whole new OS by acquiring Next.
Seems like the same thing might be hapening with MS. Think about what Apple did to solve the problem
Could MS be headed down the same path? Could Apple and OS X be the target for an MS acquisition? Or maybe MS plans on building its Windows GUI on top of an open source OS?
Stranger things have happened.
Highly Successful Xbox team? LOL the Hindenburg Airship was highly successful too.
Cancer couldn't kill me... You don't stand a chance.
Jobs is an idiot for insisting that his software can only run on his hardware. About all Microsoft makes hardware-wise are mice and XBoxes, and they're 9X the size of Apple.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
What you need to remember is that Windows is the largest software product ever created, when measured in lines of code. Bigger than the previous record holder, IBM's MVS. Bigger than the Star Wars missile shield defense software that nobody could ever get to work.
Specifically, Vista is 50 million lines of code (Mloc). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code
To compare, RedHat 7 was only 30 Mloc, including sendmail, Apache, and so on. So saying Microsoft are going to rewrite 60% of Vista by January, is like saying they could start now and have the whole of RedHat 7 completely rewritten by January.
Or to pick another data point: it's like saying Microsoft are going to start from scratch now, and write another Windows NT 5.0 by January, and have plenty of time for debugging--because NT 5.0 was only 20 Mloc.
Now do you see why software engineers reading the announcement are more than a little skeptical?
If it's really true that they need to rewrite 60% of Vista, then my professional opinion is that there's absolutely no way in hell they'll have something good enough to ship in 2007.
Even if it's out by a factor of 2 or 3, they're still in big trouble. The original Windows NT was only 4 Mloc, and there was a 5 year gap between Windows 95 and the actual release of NT.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
We're on the transition from 32-bit to 64-bit processors, and unlike Apple who seems foolishly bent on supporting both 32-bit (currently shipping Intel Macs of all types) and 64-bit (Macs after Conroe becomes available Q2/Q3 timeframe) Intel processors, I suspect that in the end Vista will come out as 64-bit only. This will save Microsoft a lot of grief afterwards, and alone would be worth the delay of this additional 6 months. Perhaps all this rewriting is to make Vista true 64-bit all the way through.
My question for Microsoft is, if .NET is so d@mn wonderful to run everything as managed code, then why isn't Vista itself written in it?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
A 60% Windows rewrite requires pushes the release date back only about another 3 months?
But writing it badly makes you seem more idiotic.
Unless it makes us think he wrote it incorrectly on purpose, in which case he looks less idiotic. Of course, by this reasoning George W. Bush is a genius because nobody could really be that stupid.
Ballmer throws a chair at Gates and it wakes him. The dream ends.
Of course, Microsoft has been sliding downhill since Windows 98 Second Edition!
You go to the CIO and say, "the next great version of product X is due in about a year and a half. It'll do everything that you've ever wanted and way more. 500 new features, and it'll take out your trash when you're tired.
That'll keep them from moving to a competitor... Why go through the horrors of changing supliers and products when you can just wait a year and a half and get something almost as good as what this other competitor can give you today... By the time you finish the migration, New Product X will already be out. -- and besides you've just finished the harrowing experience of migrating to Most Recent Release W.
About 2 years later, New Prouduct X(tm) us only 1 year away -- but they're adding in most of the nice tools that The Competitor delivered last weeks and a couple of even better ones.
By year 3, the product that was promised in 18 months is only 6 months away FIRM.
At 4 years, it's only due out in a month or two, but "we've had to chop out 1/3 of the stuff we promised you 3 years back to get it out the door."
At that point, you're already getting New Product X in beta, and -- even though The Competitor's product is still better than X, it's still too late to go switching from a product who'se warts you've become so intimate when the next and newest is so easy (politically) to switch to in the next couple of months.
I mean really ... Are you going to admit that you've held the company back from switching to an excelent product 3 years ago just because you swallowed a bunch of marketing hoodoo from The Big Company? That could cost you your job -- or worse yet, your pride.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Change +0.88%
Not too bad a day for them all in all.
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
While I can't put my finger on the references at the moment, David Cutler (project lead for DEC VMS and RSX11) walked out of DEC when management canceled the x86 VMS port.
Supposedly he took the VMS (PRISM) source with him, and it was adapted to run DOS and OS/2 applications. Supposedly this was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt by comments in the NT kernel source that originated from DEC VMS kernel coders.
I understand that DEC threatened a lawsuit concerning this, but Eckhard Pfiffer (sp?) backed down when Microsoft offered to maintain an Alpha port of NT, among other table scraps.
NT's VMS heritage is otherwise well-documented.
"Rewrite of Windows Vista underway? Hogwash! I can't believe that headlines get written like this. Totally 100% false. Provably so. I totally agree with Alec Saunders. Can the journalist and editor who wrote this do some homework please?
Update: I just talked with Frank Shaw, vice president at Waggener Edstrom (Microsoft's main PR company), he says this article is absolutely not true. Frank knows more people inside Microsoft than anyone else I know (he hangs out with all the execs). There aren't any Xbox developers moving to Windows, he tells me (verified from other people I know inside Microsoft too).
More on this story is on Memeorandum."
See Robert Scoble's statement on this issue
Enjoy!
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
60% of slashdot stories are straight from digg.
... of code being rewritten, the symptoms are crystal clear to me -- pulling bodies from other projects does not bode well for Vista.
At least, in all the software projects at all the companies I've ever seen where they resorted to "throwing bodies" at the problem, the most noteworthy result was ALWAYS to make the product even later and of lower quality.
It will be no different this time.
I don't trust this source. The author barely has a handle on English grammar, spelling and general objective article-writing practices, and fails to cite his "facts."
Microsoft could short-circuit a whole bunch of people by releasing Vista with Gimp, Mplayer, Nautilus, etc. If the IE7 core was Gecko or KHTML, security would in some percentage become somebody else's problem. The apps are already freely available and would in no way hurt sales.
If only they could get over their NIH syndrome.
It actually seems, from these delays, that Microsoft may not be willing to release a steaming pile of dogshit--- and then adopt a 'need' to update policy (usually a month or so after a major exploit is publicly revealed). I dislike Windows a great deal overall, although at this point I 'own' maybe five copies of XP (all of which are totally unusuable because I've changed laptops/desktops). But I must admit, I love my Xbox. Hopefully something good, and innovative, can come out of this.
Microsoft is definitely not going to rewrite 60% of the code in Vista.
That would take many years. This may be true for some small media related component, which I think is probably the massive misunderstanding that this pathetic publication has made, but this story stinks of journalistic incompetence, ignorance, stupidity, lack of research, and sensationalism. This is the computer news equivelent of what the British tabloid media would print (they still claim to be newspapers, rather than comic books!! Read the editorial in 'The Sun' for a Neo-Nazi Xenophobic shock)
Vista is probably well in excess of 50 million lines of code now, even for just the core executive components. Most of that code is actually in pretty good shape as software goes, and has been architected by people with very good reputations for delivering quality code, particularly given the particular pressures to deliver products that meet some warped commercial Microsoft vision. I don't doubt that Vista has problems. Microsoft always tries to deliver on too grand a vision with major product releases, rather than attempting more incremental improvement. Perhaps they are correct to do so. It means fewer changes that break things for developers later on. One thing that Microsoft tends not to do is break properly written applications. This is very important if you are a closed source vendor that is supporting lots of closed source applications. It is hard to fix mistakes in the core architecture of your platform once it has been released. Of course, the solution is to have open source applications that will quickly track platform changes, but will Microsoft adapt?
You say "Every single new Dell sold in 2008+ [...] is going to have Vista installed on them." If Vista weren't released, wouldn't these computers have XP on them? Will Vista cost so much more for the OEMs that MS will get significantly more income from releasing Vista? And if XP is that much cheaper, maybe people will buy it instead for at least a few years after the Vista release (whenever it may come).
Expected time to finish is 1 hour and 60 minutes.
Anybody remember when Apple released OSX 10.0 and actually had the gal to charge money for it? It was at best a Beta release. I've been on board with Apple and Microsoft for a while now. As big of a change as MSFT is making, I don't think they can't afford to release a OSX 10.0 quality product.
If a little more time with the OS means I'm not treated as a *paying* beta tester for v1.0 of Vista, that works for me.
So, on Monday, we'll find out that Microsoft is dumping Intel, and partnering with IBM to produce a new Personal Computing Platform based on PowerPC, and Vista will be ported to, and run exclusively on this new PPC platform.
(stranger things have happened: MacOS X86, Xbox360. . . . )
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
As I compare the annual version updates OsX has against Vista its like the Microsoft team is looking at MacOsX Leopard and are like "Oh crap! We need to get some features in this next Windows Os so it can give Osx a run for its money!" So what we got is Longhorn...Vista...& probably being renamed again to only God knows what. Then after the delayed Apple keynote thats been pushed back to the 4th Quarter comes to pass I can see Microsoft advertising the next Os theve been supposedly "Scrambling" to get done (team busy trying to ground xbox360 so ps3 dosent blow it out of the water)in SinCity-style movie posters entitled Windows XP-XL: "The Long Hard Wait". I see alot of users/companies are gonna stick with the current Xp like its Windows 98 until there are enough serious strong reasons to upgrade their hard ware just to run this Os formerly known as Longhorn. In my opinion even if they hold the release till the 4th Quarter of 2k7 it will still be looked down upon in comparison to the ever-evolving-cat formerly known OsX Tiger. But if it comes out and turns out to be a very decent Os the wait will be well worth it even though it'll probably get leaked on the net and cracked long before it reaches legal purchasing channels. So if they keep the pricing the same I think alot of people will lean towards running either a flavor of Linux or a patched version of Intel OsX since it can run circles around Xp on a cheap pc for under 300. Guess time can only tell.
When opening a document in Word on Vista,
Clippy pops up with a rail gun and drills you with a head shot!
"Hi, It looks like your a N00b, and I Just totally p0wned you!!!!111!"
- ah, the XBOX/Vista team is still working out the details of the new feature sets...
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Vista _Code_Changes/1143232877
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/24/rewrite -of-windows-vista-underway-hogwash/
Well, you managed to get "digg" to come up on the main page under the "key words beta" thingy. Congratulations!
Meh.
Really, if Microsoft is finding that they need to re-do 60% of their code, why not just dump the system and move to a Unix variant... Linux anyone? Just make a compatible "Windows" interface for Xorg. Just like Apple did with OSX on BSD.
Meh.
To bad there's no +1 Awesome. I'd have slapped that on you so fast, Digg would have missed it.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Vista _Code_Changes/1143232877
From Important Stuff section under the submit button
"...Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)..."
What the hell is an "Illegal" message?
in reading an article posted here anymore? It's become the Jason Blair of tech blogs.
He wants his blog back. Slashdot has become irrelevant.
What a completely bogus figure pulled out of someone's, who has no clue about where development is at, ass.
Why the hell would Slashdot publish this junk?
I am the maverick of Slashdot
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Vista _Code_Changes/1143232877
*.sig
You know, I'm starting to hear you, brother. I was digging digg for a while because of how fast the stories come, but the forums are utter crap (funny, since you'd think it would be mostly the same folks). The Slashdot crowd at least appreciates a good zinger. A hint of sarcasm on digg gets you -9 diggs and a buried comment. I think, I'll just slow down and sick with the /. crowd who appreciate my genius.
The "uninstalling" in the first question should be "installing".
exactly. OSX is far better than XP. Anyone windows user with a brain that sits down with it, will fall in love.
XP is killing me, and i use it every day. Its old, slow, boring, and a terrible ui with a broken work flow.
I have no faith in Microsoft and i see Apple having teh ability to take the world again through association with Ipod.
Think about how lame XP is. How poorly designed it is. How old it is. The dumb html intergration menus which do nothing. The file explorer which is mind numbingly useless when it comes to real file management tasks. The insecure browser, the disrespect of admin/user rights work flows.
XP is terrible.
OSX looks like a fine peice of art and has some great functionality. It makes XP look like a hack job. (maybe thats because it is) Sounds like Vista will be as well.
The Redmond fast-food delivery industry can expect huge profits for at least the next 18 months.
Its pretty interesting how Microsoft takes 6 years to write an OS, while apple can steadily release new ideas in their OS more frequently.
No one feels sorry for Microsoft shareholders.
*possibly*
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
They are going to rewrite the 60% of the entire Vista code base and this is only going to cost them a 2 month delay in the release?? By this metric they could plan, design, rewrite, and test the entire 50 million lines of code in Vista from the ground up in only about 3 1/2 months!
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
This is actually turning me on. I can't believe it. Must...make...booty...call.....
I'm not kidding. This is both exciting and repulsive. Are there any ladies on here that have a Microsoft's doom fetish? I would like to meet you.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Thanks for the nick! lol
Every Windows release is supposedly a total rewrite, and any more, I really don't believe that they are rewriting it. Why should I? The source is closed!
Windows NT was a total rewrite of OS/2. Windows 2000 was a total rewrite of Windows NT. Windows XP was a total rewrite of Windows 2000. Come on, how many claims of Microsoft making a total rewrite do they have to make for you to realize that, given a system with an installed base of a bazillion applications that they must be compatible with at any price, that a total rewrite is probably the last thing they would do. A total rewrite is just marketing spin, and probably all lies. Yeah, they may make some decent changes, but, a total rewrite? I think not! Why would you rewrite something whose primary job is to be compatible with the code that is already out there.
It's more Microsoft spin than ever!
This is my sig.
:wq
You should spend more time at the The Daily WTF; it's an inside joke there. Look for "The Brillant Paula Bean".
That I can't expect a fix for the shit code that caused my XP box to crash dead (not BSOD, fucking dead, as in pull the plug dead) every single time I tried to start MS Word XP today? I haven't changed a damn thing on this machine for months, except I do allow it to auto update. It used to be you could count on a certain amount of stabililty around SP2 or so of your Win XX flavor. I guess we're done with that.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
There was a recent article about how there was virtually no .net in the current version of vista. I guess that another conspiracy theory was that the marketing people decreed that more than half of vista must be written in .net, so they (semi)randomly trashed gobs of code and have started rewriting it in .net.
Who knows. The Microsoft software roadmap always has seemed a little bit random.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Should I say "you must be new here" or should I mention that he's probably one of the M$ sponsored fanboys that runs around here spouting things that allow you to get all ravenous in the mouth?
truth be told, Microsoft does have a quality assurance group just as every other industry does. Granted, smaller companies don't have whole teams of users to do QA, but the thing is that MS products are possibly submitted to nearly every possible combination of events, actions, groups, and user actions (as well as possible third party products) through the fact that there are so many more people on the face of the earth than what are in MS QA.
Truth be told, if you only used MS approved hardware and software, and then used a competent "approved" antivirus with competent (knowledgeable) computing habits, including what you download and intall -which really wouldn't be necessarily MS approved, and would cut out most games (no sony maybe, etc) and media applications (they already have a cd-burner as well as dvd player, etc) then your system would not be susceptible to all the failures that people report (provided you don't visit drive-by virus sites or recieve malformed VBS style email and attachments, however, don't forget that i did say "competent" antivirus). Microsoft couldn't have this either, as most people are not going to devote the time to becoming tech-savvy enough to have all good computing habits well entrenched in their psyches because that would mean them doing more than click click click. If users were to be forced to do this, MS would not have anywhere near the revenues that they do now.
Since none of us live in a perfect world (and since so few of us use the win-machines we have in an off-the-net way (I do, but only because it's my devel machine for windows apps and school stuff) and used more hardened machines for internet stuff, and only download only source, etc.) then it's entirely in the realm of the expected for windows to have the security flaws it has.
2^3 * 31 * 647
I was under the impression that of those 8, several were the server variants
even if you just look at current windows offerings, you have
windows xp home
windows xp pro
windows xp mce (2 ver i believe)
windows small bus serv
windows serv
windows serv enterprise
windows datacenter serv
windows web (according to their site in various places, but i don't think this counts, i mean really, IIS is a server? that's like saying so is sql and exchange)
there is also:
windows embedded (various light o/s for portable machines, phones, etc)
isn't there even a special version for tablet software?
of course, not accounting for just having 64bit and itanium versions of the diff o/s offerings, we have so far listed at least 7 different versions, so if you consider that ms is now offering one more for international sales, then isn't it entirely possible that they are trimming the fat somewhat and offering less versions?
so just for pointing it out, this site says that there will only be 5 major flavors. but it looks like they don't count their server offerings as different flavors.
enjoy
2^3 * 31 * 647
I don't think that the following part of your post is quite as correct as it might be:
My personal view is that the person concerned did not have to pull (it) outThis person is obviously suffering from a complaint which is well known amongst the English. This complaint is known as verbal diarrhoea, and there is no known cure, though the French (as per usual) have a colloquial expression for it. As of the figure itself (60%), which is not specifically referred to in your post, this is obviously the result of another well-known English complaint - arithmetic dyslexia
Before anybody gets the idea that I'm trying to start a racist "flame war", let me hasten to say that the fact that a sickness is well-known in England does not exclude it from being prevalent in other parts of the world - the state of Washington, USA may well be an example. Let me further hasten to state that the French have a colloquial expression for just about everything - particularly for things which are unpleasant and English.
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
you people got it rong its 6 %
It's all quite logical. Apple splits into its music/devices division and computer division. It makes the computer division attractive for sale, and sells it. Part of the latter involves switching to Windows, just as they just switched over to the Intel architecture, so that the Macintosh will slot right into the existing lines of PC manufacturers.
60% Of Windows Vista Code To Be Rewritten ... cuz MS just got its first preview of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard :)
Thanks for the nick! lol
:)
Great, only 920,980 users have signed up since I got my account and I finally made an impression on one!
Nothing to see here
XP sucks, so there's no way Apple would replace Mac OS X with a version of Vista that has an Apple GUI and shell grafted on to it. Yeah. That's logic, alright.
You know what else was better than Windows at the time? OS/2.
Mac OS X 2006 = OS/2 2004. The technically superior solution (arguable) will be obsoleted by the good-enough solution that has the benefit of network effects.
>1) Shareholders don't give a shit about daily price fluctuations.
When all the daily "fluctuations" are in a downward direction, they sure do!
60% of the 'consumer' vista is being rewritten, nothing about how much of the consumer one...
Does that meant that the 'corporate' vista will be 60% different?
Does this mean we're back to the good old days of one windows for home (9x) and one for the office (NT)?
Windows 95 was the start of the tree..
The start of the tree was well before that...try DOS 1.0. Each subsequent major version of DOS would be a branch of that tree (2.x, 3.4, 4.x, 5.x, 6.x). Windows 9x and Me versions were just more branches that just happened to integrate a GUI and 32-bit extensions to DOS:
Windows 95 == DOS 7.0
Windows 95A/B/C == DOS 7.1
Windows 98/98SE == DOS 7.11
Windows Me == DOS 8.0
Of course Vista will suck, they are messing with the kernel.
Whether Vista will suck is a point of debate. However, from what I've seen MS is not "messing with" the NT kernel in any meaningful way. They are, however, messing with the driver model...but in a good way (moving video and print-engine driver stuff out of kernel space). This may affect compatibility or stability with older hardware and kernel-space drivers (which I heard were supposed to still work in a pinch but won't be supported by MS) but architecturally it is a Good Thing (R) (TM).
As much as most of us wish for Linux, OSX or something else to replace windows, its not happening on the desktop.
[...]
Lets face it, Linux is missing some key software areas like Tax Preperation software (finance in general), games, Itunes compatible players (even if its illegal in US), etc.
More like "it hasn't happened yet". The Linux desktop (in both the GNOME and KDE camps but GNOME in particular) has hit its stride and has really been moving forward in the last couple of years. I moved my main desktop at home to 100% linux and haven't had the need to use Windows for anything at all since then--it already meets all my personal needs. I have to do my taxes for the first time since making the move, but I may not need to relent and use a Windows PC even now--I'm going to examine some web-based alternatives that have appeared in the last couple of years (this is in Canada--not sure what options exist for taxpayers in the US or other nations).
It really depends on your needs. Not everybody desperately needs iTunes, and a lot of people are content to entertain themselves with the occasional game of AisleRiot or Frozen Bubble or whatever. There are a lot of casual computer users out there that would be well-served by Linux, and if distribution vendors play their cards right they could establish the Linux platform in that market and finally draw the appropriate level of attention of application developers. It's a challenge but it isn't impossible, and the longer MS stumbles around the bigger the opportunity for Linux (and Apple and whoever).
whats being re-written?
that be the question. if its security and shit, then its great. but if its just the apps that come with it, then f*ck this! why would we WANT a new or addition to an os that really sucks?
_gtb
{If the world was as simple as a computer, we would think in rational databases.}