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Vonage Puts VoIP 911 Caller on Hold
kamikaze-Tech writes "It is being reported on the Vonage Forums that last month when Loren Veltkamp's
Chanhassen, Minnesota home caught on fire, he immediately called 9-1-1 using
Vonage. Unfortunately,
Vonage put him on hold, causing a delay in the response from emergency
workers. By the time fire crews arrived, the fire had become a five-alarm blaze.
The house was a total loss."
This "article" is a duplicate thread on the Vonage Forum. The original thread has much more information.
This is no different than the 911 service on PSTN (regular phone service).
I've been put on hold at least 50-60% of the time I've called.
They're understaffed.
Was this his only phone?
Any reason he didn't have access to another phone?
Traditionally you exit your burning house ASAP and call from a house next door...
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Is he entitled to a lawsuit or do you guys think their 911 disclaimer is enough to stop any charges?
They claim to be associating establishing a physical location with each E911, at so many counties per week. Yet someone on the blog points out in Ohio they're moving at a snail's pace and only in 4 rural counties. Sounds like my office, let's process ~1,500 applications, which average about 30 minutes each, by one person, who is being phased out due to lack of work. It done be amazing.
"please click on 1 if you have just seen bigfoot, click on 2 if a wolf has lept through your living room window, click 3 if you believe CowboyNeal is lurking under your bed, click 4 if you laughed so hard at the last South Park that you are choking on a cheezy poof, click 5 if you are so offended by the last South Park you are choking on a cheezy poof, click 6 if you think The Lakers is a stupid name for a team that moved from Minnesota to Los Angeles where there are no lakes, click 7 if your house is on fire and your children have flown, click 8 if you are suffering a medical emergency, click 9 if you are "dying zerelda, dying zerelda, die, die, die, die, die, die!!!" or stay on the line and listen to some light jazz until your connection is mysteriously dropped."
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
try calling 911 on a POTS line or cell phone in any major city and see for yourself.
Oh my god I cant write anymore. I must call someone ;-)
200GB/2TB $7.95 Coupon: SAVE90DOLLAR
I'm a Vonage customer and couldn't be more happy.
.. and I think I'd use my cell for that...
I've never experienced a loss or major call quality, even when my ISP hits 250-350ms ping (as they sometimes do!).
Though, I've never call 911 from it
= Grow a brain...
Tried to follow the link in the story, but the server put me on hold....
It is being reported on the Vonage Forums that last month when Loren Veltkamp's Chanhassen, Minnesota home caught on fire, he immediately called 9-1-1 using Vonage. Unfortunately, Vonage put him on hold,
Next at 6: Slashdot links to Vonage-forum, forum webserver puts thousands on hold and THEN catches fire.
PS:Houses usually don't "catch" fire, like they're standing around and fire lands on them out of the blue. How'd the guy's house actually catch fire? Why didn't he have an extinguisher? Why didn't he hang up the phone and DIAL AGAIN?
PPS:The above is half serious and half spoofing the typical "apologist" line.
Please help metamoderate.
What I want to know is, Why was he still in the house if it's on fire?
I have had Vonage for well over a year, but have never dialed 911.
It is my understanding you are routed to your local PSAP.
--fatboy
I live about 6 minutes away from chanhassen, and the last time I called 911 I was put on hold. I called from a cell phone not voip so I'm geussing its just the local emergency services fault.
I think their new commercial should show a guy getting Vonage and then his house burns down, and then they say, "People do stupid things. Going with Vonage is one of them."
I had to call 911 a few times in the past few years, and every single time I've had nothing but trouble from them. One time when I witnessed a car accident and stayed to help, I called 911 because a woman at the scene had trouble getting out of her car (the door wouldn't open and her legs were pinned). The 911 operator *wouldn't believe* that she needed help and refused to send more than one police car. Luckily he came quickly and called for the proper help. Another time I had to call, I was transfered to the wrong emergency service. I needed the police, but was sent to the fire dept. While the fire operator was talking, the 911 operator interrupted the call and transfered me to the EMS! Again, interrupted and finally I got the police. Other times I've had operators who were rude and unhelpful.
So Vonage's 911 seems to be at par with the poor level of service given by the other 911 services.
As someone who never thought he would need to dial 911, let me tell you that one day, when you find yourself or a loved one in a life or death situation, you will regret saving $12.00 a month on long distance for the past few years...
Now that all the phones in our house are VOIP, we no longer have access to 911 services. Unfortunately this was not my choice. As for anyone who is considering moving to completely VOIP, wouldn't you pay $12.00 a month extra to be able to access emergency services??
Five Alarm?
Just how big was his house? The Santana Row fire in San Jose was a five alarm fire and that was huge.
Methinks there's a wee bit of exaggeration going on here.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
From the Minneapolis Star Tribune (1D, October 12, 2004):
911 calls over Internet often get lower priority; Vonage, AT&T calls don't show data to dispatcher
Steve Alexander; Staff Writer
People who make emergency calls using new Internet telephone service are often second-class citizens, says Fred Fischer, a St. Paul police officer who runs Ramsey County's largest 911 emergency call center.
When the 911 center gets calls from consumers using Internet calling services provided by Vonage or AT&T, the calls don't ring the 911 phone lines that are answered immediately, Fischer said. Instead, they come in on nonemergency lines that get second priority and are crowded with more than twice as many callers.
Worse, Internet emergency calls usually are more difficult to handle because the 911 operator must ask for critical information: Who and where are you? In a normal 911 call, that information automatically appears on the operator's computer screen at the same time the call is answered. But with most Internet calls, the information isn't transmitted at all.
"The benefit of the 911 system is that we know your location in the event that you can't speak to us," Fischer said. "We don't get that with the Internet calls."
Fischer's 911 call center problems are the result of conventional wired phones being displaced by a new technology called Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP).
VOIP uses a high-speed Internet connection to provide phone service instead of a conventional telephone line. VOIP service, which appeals to consumers because it provides extensive or unlimited local and long-distance calling at discounted prices, converts the voice into digital bits that are transmitted over the public Internet or a private data network. The bits are converted back into a traditional phone signal just before the call reaches its destination.
Not all Internet telephone service suffers from the problems Fischer describes. But 911 officials say Vonage and AT&T's CallVantage service have those difficulties, while Time Warner Cable's new Internet phone service doesn't. Vonage didn't return a phone call seeking comment, while AT&T says it's working on the problem.
"We recognize there are concerns out there, and we will resolve them," said Kerry Hibbs, an AT&T spokesman in Dallas. "We make very clear to our customers that our CallVantage Internet phone service does not work the same as traditional land-line 911." Greater compatibility with 911 will be introduced in some undisclosed parts of the nation this year, he said.
----
So, did Vonage put him on hold because they were giving E911 information over the phone, or did the local PSAP put him on hold? The forum itself is burning, so I can't RTFF.
They're giving him $20 credit and 7% off all his future 911 calls.
...of the burnt down house: 0wnage by Vonage :D
A few weeks ago I was rear ended. The damage to my car was pretty extensive, so one of my passengers called 911 while I talked to the other driver. He was on hold for well over five minutes. When someone finally answered, he handed the phone to me. I talked for about 4 seconds before being cut off by the operator. The nice version is that if no one was bleeding or dead, she was hanging up to deal with more important calls.
The call centers are vastly understaffed, which isn't Vonage's fault, so people get put on hold. End of story.
Doesn't vonage make sure to state that their service is not meant for emergency or 911 calls?
I mean come on, if they tell you "you might not be able to get this to work" then why would you expect it to?
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
This should surprise no one. 911 is not anywhere near as reliable as you think it could or should be. A friend of mine nearly cut off this thumb with a chop saw. He ran into the house, called 911, and .... it was busy. Rather than dick around bleeding (drip, drip), he called the one person he knew he could rely on: his office secretary (three cheers for secretaries!) She called the local ambulance service, they picked up, took him to the hospital, and after a little tendon reattachment surgery and months of rehab, he was good as new. No thanks to 911.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Why would you call 911 that your house is burning down over VoIP? While its nice and good, it just doesn't replace a wired or even cell phone. Besides, what if when one was calling 911 and the cable modem was in the process of being melted?
"Everything worth innovating today will go to court tomorrow."
Looks more like a candidate for the "huge fucking lawsuit dept".
If he had been using the subj. modem device,
his emergency call might have been put through
to 911 directly, with Vonage out of the picture.
The feature is known as "Lifeline"...
wouldn't you pay $12.00 a month extra to be able to access emergency services??
Not hardly worth $12/month. Maybe $1/month, tops.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Most cities and towns have emergency lines that connect you directly to your local dispatch center. If you call 911 from a cell phone or VoIP phone, you usually get connected to a central dispatch center that has to relay all the info to your local dispatcher. Even though E911 doesn't work when calling local emergency numbers, it will almost always save several minutes on emergency response times.
I've had the exact same experiance. Try calling 911 to report an accident while it's raining in Los Angeles (the stories about people not being able to drive in the rain and an understatement) Last time I tried I got a busy signal, call again and hung up after being on hold for 5 minutes. Seems like a little FUD to me.
He was in the house because he was on hold. It said so, right in the summary.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
As a VoIP installer, and remaining a coward, I can assure you that E911 is an issue but it's also the lobbyist's friend.
Most companies don't care for E911 BUT when MegaLarge POTS hires lobbyists to REQUIRE E911 service they create a delay or diminish the sales of VoIP UNTIL the MegaLarge POTS people can get into the VoIP business.
As with everything it's about money and control. Needless to say the MegaLarge POTS company have more money and power to squish the little startups (by their standards).
We have had to have waivers signed that allowed companies to say "I don't care about E911".
Two side notes about E911 service.
1. I've been put on hold many times and often longer than five minutes. Dispatch is nothing but a call center. Sometimes there is a queue.
2. There is no SLA with "when" the Government is going to get there. In my neighborhood, low-income, I expect a long delay.
Don't people know the phone number of the local fire, ambulance and police departments anymore? If you can't remember it, then maybe have it written down or entered in the cell phone.
911 is a joke in your town.
Flanders drives into his driveway and Bart panics, pleading with Lisa to leave. Instead she climbs the stairs, but Bart warns her she'll be trapped. He sees Ned looking angry, walking with an ax.
Bart: [watching Flanders] An ax. He's got an ax! I'll save you, Lisa! [tries to walk on his broken leg, falls back] Uh, I'll save you by calling the police. [dials 911]
Voice: Hello, and welcome to the Springfield Police Department Resc-u- Fone[tm]. If you know the name of the felony being committed, press one. To choose from a list of felonies, press two. If you are being murdered or calling from a rotary phone, please stay on the line.
Bart: [growls, punches some numbers]
Voice: You have selected regicide. If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered, press one.
Totally agree.
[deep operator recorded voice]We're sorry... the publicly-recognized essential service is no longer in service or has been disc...[/deep operator recorded voice]
In any event, all humor aside - wouldn't it feel pretty bad to have a *real* emergency and be put on hold? Perhaps there are holes in the story, and maybe it is even a bit blown out of proportion. However, if someone I love was in real danger, or if my home was on fire, I'd call 911. I haven't waded through the 50+ "green" pages in the phone book to find all the important direct-dial emergency numbers.
Call centers (including 911 dispatch) are woefully understaffed because of economics (public or private).
A Passionate Independent Musician
Repeat after me:
IP packet delivery, internet infrastructure, etc, is most often not classed as "critical infrastructure"
The FCC sets standards to which telephone switches have to meet - the so called 5 9s rule. Outside of planned maintenance (see note 1), you have to be able to pick up any phone attached to the switch, get dialtone, and reach emergency services 99.999% of the time.
Residential IP delivery has no such SLA, nor any requirement for such a SLA from the FCC. Even if you got a very reliable connection at home, the rest of the IP backbone can fail, and you have no recourse if some ISP decides that routing packets from Los Angeles to Sacramento via London is a good idea or not.
If you want to be able to dial 911, have a regular handset phone (no fancy cordless or other features) connected to regular POTS line. Cell phones don't count. Not all cell towers have backup generators, and I suspect that even the ones that do have gensets do not go through regular maintenance checks.
Got a cablemodem? How do you know that your cable company has (a) put batteries in its nodes and (b) replaced the batteries when their servicable life has passed? The fiber doesn't leave the head end and magically become coax at your house, there are active devices in the network that consume power. Guess what happens if your neighborhood loses power? If the node has no battery, you lose cablemodem too. Thats assuming your cablemodem is on a UPS, and so are all the other gadgets you have between it and your vonage box.
If your house burns down and the only telephones you have are not lifeline rated, I have absolutely no sympathy for you.
Note 1: AFAIK, the FCC requires that its 99.999% including scheduled maint, but most telcos shirk that law and don't include scheduled maint in their calculations.
If you are ever woken up by the smell of smoke/fire in your house, you have just about three minutes to get out before you die. Basicly, the amount of smoke and gasses in the air that are enough to wake you up are jsut slightly les then it takes to kill you.
Also, a tiny fire can turn life threatening in jsut a couple of minutes. Fire is not somehitn to be fucked with.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I had a gas leak when I lived in Maple Grove, 10-15 miles north of Chanhassen, and I was not put on hold and the police and fire department were there in minutes. This was on a regular land line though. I'm not ready to give that up yet.
was convicted for assaulting a former tenant of his while performing a "citizen's arrest" for failure to pay rent. He appealed the case pro se, and unsurprisingly lost on his irrelevent legal arguments. The man seems to be a bit nutty, if not dangerous.
Then, there's the matter of delays between the emergency number and the emergency services. Again, there are times when this isn't a big deal. On the other hand, 2 minutes without oxygen leads to irreversible brain damage - that can matter when the ambulance service is talking to someone calling on behalf of a heart attack victim.
Now, it's not entirely the emergency service's fault - a surprisingly large number of 911/999 calls are people calling to find out where to get pizza (seriously!) or other so wildly, blatantly, non-emergency reasons. Stupidity of this kind results in a low-grade, continual DDoS attack. Hoax calls (and there are plenty of those) also limit the ability to respond.
IMHO, all levels of emergency service need better staffing and better equiptment, but education (and penalties for misuse) over emergency services needs improving too.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Haha, I just saw one of their commercials a few minutes ago. Now I know what they meant by the small "Vonage 911 works differently than 911" text at the bottom of the screen, near the end of the ad.
Don't people know the phone number of the local fire, ambulance and police departments anymore?
Generally not, because we were always taught 911 was reliable. It's shorter, it's one number, and it's supposed to get results.
Depends on the locale and how 911 is implemented. Currently, we have to call 911 for things as minimal as noise complaints. They barely send officers for break-ins, yet alone for all 911 calls. The last place we lived, they'd send an officer for all 911 calls.
I must have gotten lucky or something, but the few times I've had to call 9-1-1 (via landline) I was amazed with the incredible speed that I got through. ... just my two cents.
Woo hoo woo hoo hoo doesn't allow woooooooooo woo woo woo.
Not only that, in my neighbourhood, they're HARD to find, and have changed since 911 came out, due to municipal amalgamations and so forth.
I spent about 25 minutes one night trying to find a phone number for the fire department, so they could help me with a fuel leak which wasn't actually an *emergency*, but certainly a ticking time bomb to public safety and the environment.
Anyhow, I finally found the number, called them, explained what was going on to the shocked phone-answered, and got a visit from the fire department about a half hour later. They were pretty cool about it, I also didn't get a bill in the mail for using an emergency service improperly.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
People like you are part of the problem, just maybe?
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
How'd the guy know it was Vonage putting him on hold and not the call center? When my cell fails it doesn't put me on hold or tell me if it is service or that number (kinda like an error 404). I just get something generic like "number could not be reached" or "please try again".
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
I had a similar experience. Except instead of relying on others I applied pressure to my finger and drove to the hospital. In fact I've never taken an ambulance to the hospital for anything even when I broke my shin. I hopped to my truck, jumped in and drove to the hospital and hopped into the emergency room.
most of the publically available numbers are not staffed 24/7 and are usually not the appropriate numbers for dispatch. call your local police department and you'll generally get a nice voice menu where you have to navigate 15 levels deep to reach someone.
only 911 is guaranteed to be staffed 24/7.
Try this guys for the change. Sunrocket *No Gotchas* company and best price, with all 10 features working like a charm. Much cheaper so that you don't complain about things like this... but to be honest I only called 911 once. Got to the operator right away but they had no idea where I called from 'cause I wasn't registered.. but I got to the operator right away, which is good. I am still no registered so when my house catch on fire... I just home my neighboor doesn't have Vonage phone... :o) LOL!
If by 'major accident' you mean something seen by a lot of people, this is most likely because half of them called at the same time as you.
That's a fundamental vulnerability of the 911 system, but I don't know that there's mmuch you can do about that.
I see no conclusive evidence to blame Vonage.
/. story any consideration; there simply aren't enough details, and I think the station that first reported the story isn't trustworthy for detailed, accurate stories.
TFA doesn't explain what "put on hold" is. This vague problem could be with any number of systems, which could belong to Qwest (very big here in Minnesota), or some other company. Or , to echo other comments, the 911 center in Chanhassen ould have been understaffed and may have put the caller on hold.
Moreover, KSTP Channel 5 has shitty sensationalist news. I live in Saint Paul MN. In my opinion, Channel five news is a joke. The news team offers interesting headlines without necesary details in the actual stories.
In conclucsion, readers, please don't give this ancedotal
I've yet to read the forum post since the link is currently Slashdoted.This may have been a problem with Vonage forwarding the call, or the Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP).
All e911 calls get forwarded to a local PSAP. With a wireline this is fairly easy since your address is a given. Moreover, the same can be said about a mobile phone. Your location can be determined via GPS or or your proximity to two cells. With VoIP this is different... your IP address doesn't store your physical location.
I don't quite know how this problem is or has been resolved, but that said, PSAPs royally suck. PSAPs frequently give people busy signals and or put people on hold for upwards of 10 minutes.
This is especially bad during peek times, such as commute hours. Every moron in the world is on the road armed with a device that can both distract, cause accidents, AND make a 911 call. Needless to say, we need more PSAPs.
Moreover, a non-emergency number would be a god send. A massive portion of e911 calls aren't even emergencies.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
At the risk of being modded down, I will now violate three /. conventions in this reply:
1) I will address the larger issue raised her;
2) I will not speak in a narrowly US-centric viewpoint;
3) I will not attack other viewpoints by sematic arguments and hair-splitting.
The larger - issue: Emergency calls by VOIP raise predictable problems that are being addressed by competent telephone service providers. Most nations have an emergency number (911 in the US, 000 in Australia, 999 in Britain, 112 in France etc). Locating an emergency call from a wired connection is trivial - look it up in the database. Locating a call from a mobile is a little trickier, but you can narrow the call down to the base station and perhaps even triangulate from there. But a VOIP call could be from anywhere.
Most telcos are trying to find solutions and the ITUhttp:///http://www.itu.int/> have been sponsoring discussion on this. The obvious solution involves matching the IP address to a location, but dynamic addresses, NATs etc make this problematic.
Telcos report that 90% of emergency calls are hoaxes or misdirected. In some places the call centres are under-resourced, staff are ill-trained or lack language skills and may be located at a great geographical distance from the caller. Some genuine callers are foreigners with no local language, others are panicky or just stupid.
Voip also often suffers from dropped packets, latency or poor audio quality. There may be compatability issues with the PSTN.
The underlying problem is that VOIP is an evolving technology and the market is driving development. Emergency call centres are typical telco institutions designed for a structured, centrally-directed system where development proceeds at a leisurely pace - thats how the phone system has always worked. I predict that governments will start to mandate location-specific data for VOIP protocols to fix this.
Actually, speaking as a former firefighter, it isn't common for folks to misunderstand how dangerous a fire can be. Most folks freak completely out. They panic, and make mistakes they should know better than to do.
Small grease fires take out a whole kitched because the panicked homeowner throws water on it, instead of something like flour.
It's simple Fight or Flight syndrome. Most folks run for it (flight), but without applying a thought process to what they are doing. Those that try to deal (fight) with it aren't usually trained to deal with it properly. Sometimes even those that ARE trained get caught by something they didn't expect.
Fires are nothing to mess around with. Those that have a healthy respect for them can deal with it once they are properly trained. Those that don't, tend to die, even with training. Just check out the number of firefighters that die each year due to really dumb things like buildings falling on them.
Most firefighter deaths (that aren't due to traffic accidents or heart attacks) were completely preventable. There's usually a cover-up, for the officers in charge, all the way down to even the victim's themselves. Nobody wants to tarnish a hero's legacy, even if said "hero" had their head up their ass and was in a place they should have known better than to be, or was doing something they shouldn't have done. The public doesn't end up knowing, but most of it ends up getting caught on tape by some bystander, and then the government ends up buying the tape rights so that it doesn't get on the 11 o'clock news. Then, they show it as training video, and tell us "See, these guys are dumbfucks, and so is their commanding officer". And yet, more than half the class would still make the same mistake.
I called 911 the other day to report a ladder in the middle of the freeway. My call wasn't answered for over 2 minutes. So Vonage putting someone on hold doesn't seem so bad. I've asked and the 911 operator says it is the correct number to dial to report these things (in Calif).
There was a recent string of articles in the Oregonian about the perception of callers feeling that they were treated rudely by the dispatchers. I don't think I've ever had to call 911, now that I think about it. Seeing these articles sounds like they are at least aware of it and it's an issue for them in training.
A
We all learned this in our younger schooling... if your house is on fire, get out, and call from a another house's phone. Now, if it's vonage at the other house, then there's a problem....
The above comments are not guaranteed to make sense to anyone other than the author...
When I signed up for Packet8 (had Vonage awhile back.. had horid echos on all calls.. they blamed my phone...but on regular lines, no echo on the same phone), they actually recommended that once I had the E911 service set, to schedule a test call w/ 911, to make sure it works, BEFORE we need it (I'm also friends w/ the 911 Dispatch manager, who also wanted to see how Packet8 handled it). Thats common sense. I've even done that with my Cell just to make sure it works properly.
The FCC did mandate that all VOIP providers had until like September 31st or something around there to have 100% E911 coverage, and, when I was reviewing VoIP providers, and their 911 coverage (based on subscriber base), Packet8 scored the highest at 93%.
So yes, he probably could sue Vonage, since they are in violation of FCC regulations on VoIP, but he also should have made sure BEFORE hand that it infact would route to a 911 center, on the actual 911 lines, instead of going to the non-emergency number at the dispatch center. Vonage, and other VoIP providers who do not have E911 coverage generally will route to the non-emergency number, and that number may be busy, may not get answered after hours, or will put you on hold ("thank you for calling Bob County 911, please hold*click*"). The only way to be sure you're going to get proper 911 response is if you talk to a real 911 dispatcher, not a receptionist who will then have to transfer your call to a 911 dispatcher, whom you will then have to tell your address to.
OMG... I have a sig?
disclaimer: I work in the telecom field.
Vonage put the call on hold?? Or was it the 911 operator?
I wasn't aware Vonage operated 911 call centers. Do they have SLAs with emergency responders?
If Vonage [equipment] didn't answer the call, they were just providing the transport.
Next time the wife hangs up on me am I supposed to call Cingular and open a trouble ticket
for dropped calls on my cell phone?
Please.
a real firefighter would never suggest throwing flour onto a fire, flour explodes when thrown into flame
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
And in the UK... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/08/govt_numbe r/
"Around seven in ten calls to the 999 service are not deemed to be emergencies, thus clogging up the system and making it harder for staff to handle urgent calls. Which is why the government wants a new Single Non-Emergency Number (SNEN).
The new SNEN service - 101 - will be used for people to report matters such as vandalism, graffiti, and noisy neighbours."
(I think 999, 911 and 112 are equivalent in the UK, but 999 is most familiar to most people, I've only ever dialed 999 though.)
Yeah, I had a similar situation. I fell on my bicycle and tore open one knee and got serious road rash on the other. I got a ride to the hospital from the department secretary (again, hooray for secretaries). You should have seen how white her face got when I walked into her office. I was bleeding so badly that the blood had run down to my socks from the front of the building to her office. She quickly agreed that yes, I needed to go to the hospital. Got there, walked into the emergency room, and they didn't have anybody to see me right away. I said "Okay, this is bullshit! What if this was an actual emergency and I was like, you know, BLEEDING FREELY??", and walked a block to my best friend's house. His father is a doctor. He stitched me up, right as rain.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
They should upgrade their phone system...sounds like some Windows variant is powering the whole system and its becoming a little too obvious. Must suffer from "hangs" more than "crashes" though.
The last thing we need is for 911 system to get /. by a bunch of geeks so they can smugly post how crappy 911 is.,,
Once called the local non-emergency response number to report a drunk guy fallen down in the street with an apparent broken nose. After they asked my if he was violent to which I answered "No, he's just sitting there" they transferred me to 911.
Don't you have a phone book? They should be in the "blue pages"
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
12 Top Safety Tips
Chip pan fires cause more injuries from fire in your home than anything else.
That is a seroius BURN! sorry, I couldn't helpmyself.
It depends on where you at. I tried to good thing before and call the local numbers in Austin. As far back as 10 years ago, the local numbers were routed to 911 dispatchers. For at least 5 years, Austin has been pushing 311 for non-emergency calls. The only issue I have with 311 is they no longer handle animal calls and will not transfer to you animal control. The animal control unit is Austin has grown large enough to have its call center and dispatchers. I now have animal control programmed into my cell phone. For car wrecks, they prefer for you to call 311 if there is a lot of damage, i.e. unmovable vehicle, call 911 if someone is injured, or better yet, handle amongst yourselves and make damn sure you're not blocking traffic or expect to get a ticket.
I've called 911 in the US exactly once, and i was put on hold for about 2 minutes and then transferred to a non-local 911 department who didn't really know where i was or what i was reporting.
This was in what appeared to be a really serious accident. A full size van literally flew across a 6 lane intersection because the driver didn't notice his lane had ended. This was in the afternoon rush hour and it seems like a miracle that no-one was hit.
However i suspect about 50 vehicals saw the accident and i'm sure some decent percentage of them dialled 911 immediately. I'm not sure how many 911 operators are standing by, but i doubt it's enough to cope with the influx of calls in that situation. As a result, people with perhaps more legitimate emergencies would struggle to get through.
Maybe once the 911 locator stuff gets off the ground, the system could automatically deprioritize calls coming from the same location as those already being answered.
Homer: Operator? Give me the number for 911!
In many places, if you call that number, assuming you can find it, they'll tell you to call 911, since all dispatching is handled through 911.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
In a post 911 world... ...oh wait.
"A good compromise leaves everyone mad." -Calvin
You dumb fuck. You could get somebody killed.
If you have a kitchen fire, some good things to try are:
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
That's sort of the point - if your house is on fire, the first thing you do is get out. You don't grab anything or make a phone call. You call from next door or on your cell.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
As regards some of the people commenting in the thread quoted above that there was likely substantial delay in the dialing of 911, consider also that, under stress, it can take people a fair amount of time just to get those three digits right. In an emergency, most people get fairly clumsy with fine motor movements, one of those reasons that those personal safety devices can be pretty useless in a mugging situation unless you've trained yourself over and over again to pull it out without having to think about it.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
(No links provided because I'm at work and "Weapons" sites are filtered.)
Google for "Dial 911 and Die" and you'll find some interesting case studies by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Their point is that that you should be able to own guns because dialing 911 will frequently not produce a fast enough response to prevent a tragedy. The broader point is that 911 is surprisingly (to most people) unreliable. Generally, when you have a true emergency of the "We need help in two minutes or less or someone's going to die" sort, you're on your own.
Back before 911 when I was a kid, I was listening to music in my bedroom when I heard my mother scream. As I walked down the hall, I saw her trying to dial the phone while the entire top of the cooktop was engulfed in four feet of flames from a grease fire. I walked in, pulled her out of my path, opened the pantry, stuck my thumb into the side of a new box of baking soda, ripped the top clean off, stuck my arm into the fire, and vigorously shook all the powder out of the box over the fire. Then I turned off the burners and told my mom "I put it out; you clean it up."
I was back in my room and listening to music again in 90 seconds, 2 minutes, tops.
If I'd been stupid enough to rely on 911, the house would have burned down. It's amazing to me how many people don't realize that they need to be at least a little self-sufficient.
The reason they do this is because the infrastructure is designed to appropriately classify and route fire, EMS, and police calls to the appropriate resources. When you call a non-emergency number, you get someone who does not have access to the dispatch system and someone who is not able to determine what resources (police cars, ambulances, fire trucks, etc) are available to dispatch to handle that particular situation. They advise you to hang up and call 911 because the 911 operator will be able to hand your situation off to a dispatcher that will allocate the appropriate resources to the call and will then mark those resources as unavailable for other calls.
There really is a method behidn the madness - just a single point of contact for coordination of resources.
I wonder how much SBC/ATT and Verizon have spent making sure this BS story keeps getting dredged up. Cowboy Neal is either a sucker or a stooge for posting this.
From the article:
The story continues. Not just Vonage, it appears.
Personally, I'm not going to rush out and purchase one. I'm happy with my A/B/Cs for the following reason: I am not a firefighter, I do not extinguish fires on a daily, monthly, or even yearly basis, therefore, I do not want to create a situation where there is a fire in my home, and I have to try to select the proper extinguisher in a panic.
If something's on fire, the last thing I want to have to do is say, "Oh, the garbage can is on fire. Better go find my class A extinguisher... wherever I put that one." Or "Oh, gee whiz, my cooking oil caught on fire. Better go find my class B (or K) extinguisher... wherever I put that one." Or, "Yowsers! This is an electrical fire. I better go find my class C extinguisher... wherever I put that one."
See where I'm going with this one? I like A/B/C for its point, yank, and shoot operation. If there is a fire, I don't trust myself to correctly ascertain the type of fire, determine which is the correct extinguisher, locate it, and then use it before my house gets torched. I want to just "shoot the base of the red stuff with the fire extingusiher thingy", run like a scared rabbit, and let the professionals handle the situation from there.
Thanks again for letting me know about the class K. Always good to learn about new(ish) things.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Carl: "Oh, and don't bother calling 911 any more...here's the _real_number." [hands Homer a card with "912"]
Oddly enough CNN has this article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/tennessee.911.ap/ index.html
"Thousands of calls to Chattanooga's 911 call center have been going unanswered, according to records examined after a caller was unable to report a kitchen fire because three of four dispatchers were taking breaks at the same time."
I live a few houses away from the house that burned. One problem was that he only listed his address with Vonage as "Chan". Not "Chanhassen", not "Chanhassen, MN", not such and "1313 Mockingbird Lane, Chanhassen, MN". Just "Chan". Vonage had no idea how to process the call.
I agree that, if this guy was bouncing around the house, grabbing computers, it was no 5-alarm fire at that time (or any other time), and he was probably wasting precious time that could have helped save part of the house.
And if his music was important enough to risk his life on, he would have been better off making backups and sticking it in a safety deposit box. An external drive and a safety deposit box are far cheaper than 2 days in hospital for smoke inhalation or the fines he probably received for risking the lives of the officials who chased him thru the house. That should have been the lesson for him to take away from this fiasco. Precisely what happened with Vonage putting him on hold is a bit of a side show compared to that.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
This happened frquently and I had to teach her to just be persistant and keep phoning until they listened. Her mom was very ill. Crap like this does happen and often they don't get it right.
Excellent idea, but if you don't know the 911 Dispatch Manager, how would one go about scheduling a test 911 call? (I'm actually thinking of the educational possibilities for my kids, since I don't have VoIP.)
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
The guy never said smoke would wake you up, he said IF
I realize you wanted to toot your "I'm a paramedic, so I can use that to make people think I things" but really, you need to STFU if you can't read for comprehension.
> Anybody who only has Vonage without some form of backup line
;)
> (either a bare bones land line or a cell phone) is a bit of
> a moron anyway- what would he have done if a candle lit the
> drapes on fire during a power outage?
Back in the day, when Grandpa bought the first cordless phone I ever saw, I seem to recall that he was required to have a hardline phone on the premissis. Of course, that was back in the day when AT&T was Ma Bell and kind of cared if one died - or was at least regulated to care.
Now, there might be a day when VOIP is really a complete mesh network - WIFI is common enough that if your net connections are down, you just use your neighbors, or your car uplinks to the spy sat.
Hmm, if one wants to be really safe, one would have:
1) A land line
2) VOIP
3) Cell Phone
4) A 2m HT with DTMF and a connection to the local autopatch
And if one wants to be even safer, have fire-proof curtains and live in a cement house.
" He was in the house because he was on hold. It said so, right in the summary."
... a time when there is both VoIP and Cordless phones/Wireless headsets ... then your assumtion is absurd ;-)
....
Unless this is actually 2006
(RTFA == good); (assume_without_thinking == bad);
HAND
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
There may not be fire...
We are told, when getting Vonage, that 911 service may not be available
A: If the internet goes down
B: If the power goes out
Then there is the difference between E911 and 911...
I think several people have already commented that you should keep Fire/Police/Ambulance on the SPEED DIAL as well as 911.
Just about every week you see or read a story about a 911 operator hanging up on someone or getting facts wrong, or a disconnect on the line.
We aren't helpless, and that is all 911 has done for us. We rely on it instead of thinking for ourselves...
Then Cell Phones, well, they have a worse reputation than Vonage with 911. You call, and some operator MIGHT answer, if you have signal...
And if there is the "general" operator, they will want to know what city you are in so they can TRANSFER you to that locality.
Then you have to know the address or close intersection or mile marker...
If you ask me, this will be blown up to make Vonage look bad, but in reality, the 911 service is more relaible via POTS or VoIP than it is on a cell phone.
Here was my cell phone 911 call:
Operator 1: 911 what is the emergency?
Me: A van is starting on fire, there is lots of smoke
Operator 1: what city are you in?
Me: Kirkland, Washington...
Operator 1: Would you like to be connected to Kirkland 911?
Me: um, sure...
(now the van has erupted into flame)
Operator 2: 911 what is your emergency?
Me: A van is burning in the parking lot...
Operator 2: would you like to be connected to Kirkland Fire Department?
Me: uh, sure...
(flames have now engulfed the entire engine area, the fuel line has ruptured and gass is burning in puddles under the van)
Operator 3: Kirkland Fire Department, is this an emergency call?
Me: yes, there is a van burning in the parking lot, it might explode
Operator 3: Please call 911
Me: I did, they sent me to you
Operator 3: Where are you located
Me: (address)
Operator 3: Ok, we will dispatch a unit to your location...
--E--
Wait, wait, I've seen this one!
It's because the "terrorist" has wired the fake bomb at the primary school so that it responds to police communication frequencies. But then someone puts it in the news and 911 gets totally overloaded with traffic from worried parents. Like a ddos.
I suspect 50-60% would just have to hold in such a situation.
They're gonna have to wait anyway, till that fat guy with the glasses finds out that it's just a fake one. The real one is one that tanker where the gold - supposedly - is.
But Bruce Willis knows better.
Defining Statistics and Social Research
IIRC, Vontage users don't pay a 911 taxation fee. Therefore, they do not pay to operate the 911 centers. I think this is a situation of you get what you pay for. Governments have to fund the 911 service, and they have rightfully decided to do so with a standard phone line tax.
That's why I like to tell my tenants simple things to remember. "Here's the fire extinguisher. Pull the pin, point the hose at the base of the flames, then squeeze. If the fire is still going and the extinguisher ain't, then get the hell out and call 911 from the neighbor's or a cellphone. My landlord's insurance policy doesn't cover your belongings, so get yourself renter's insurance. It's cheap."
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
I know this is a little off topic, but just wanted to rant. Vonage has horrible policies, they claim no contract, but their is a $39.99 fee plus tax! to cancel. I got rid of them for just a cell and they were rude and charged this fee to cancel. I remember when it didn't cost money to stop getting a service. Save yourself some hassle and pass on Vonage.
Instead, how about you set up a pan full of grease on a cinder block, light it on fire, and then use a pole with a coffee can tied to the end to dump flour on it.
We did it. It put the fire out. It didn't explode.
Carry on.
Virg
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a knowledgeable instructor said (sarcastically) "You'd be better off throwing flour", knowing that flour could ultimately become a fuel. Then trainee misunderstands the sarcasm as "Flour is a really good idea".
Now, one thing I'd say is that throwing flour from 5 feet away would creat a nice fine mist of fuel that military types call FAE (Fuel/Air Explosive). Bad, bad news.
On the other hand, pouring a couple of kilos of flower from a foot or two away would attack the two primary methods of stopping a fire:
- cool the fuel. If you have more flour than grease, the flour will cool the grease -- probably below the burning point. At this point, you have the ability to move the pan from the burner... (further cooling the fire).
- deprive it of oxygen (or -- to put it another way, deprive the oxygen of flame-temperature fuel. The flour will congeal and cut down on the spattering of the grease which gives a nice fuel-air interface. It can also cover the surface of the grease (before it sinks) -- once again depriving the fuel of it's oxygen (or vice versa).
Water, on the other hand, will just instantly expand into steam, and toss grease into the air -- in a fine mist of flame-temperature fuel. When that hits the air, instead of cooling, it will light on fire which will further heat nearby dropletsWhen flour hits hot grease, there's a chemical reaction that takes place (first step for making cream sauces). This reaction is probably endothermic, which would further cool the fuel.
Strangely this is actually how placing a lid on the pot helps to put out a fire... It removes the exothermic ("hot") fuel-air interface point from the surface of the grease, thus slowing down the feedback loop of heating the grease from both top and bottom -- now you just need to get the bottom of the grease away from the hot burner....
So, he's not completely out to lunch -- but I'd say that if you have an ABC or K fire extinguisher on hand, or just a lid (or another, larger pan), that's probably a better solution ... Just remember... Never put water on an oil/grease/gasoline fire.
Last point: Firefighters walk into these kinds of fires with equipment that goes well beyond choosing between flour and baking soda. If it gets to the point where a (fully suited) firefighter is choosing between flour and baking soda to put out a fire, (s)he's probably also wondering about whether his/her last will and testament is up to date. I seriously doubt that they get in-depth training about the nuances of using common kitchen ingredients as firefighting tools.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
A fight broke out between a British guy and a store clerk at Ralph's a little past midnight. All the Ralph's employees were beating on him, the British guy's friends came in... it wasn't pretty. Those of us customers who weren't involved in the fight were dailing 911, and all of us got put on hold when we called. After 15 minutes, one of us got in so I don't know how long we could have waited.
If my house had been burning down, I'd have been mighty upset at being placed on hold for 15.
Cellphones work fine for 911. Vonage warns everyone when they sign up that their 911 isn't your ordinary, garden variety 911. I would never use my Vonage for 911 unless it was my only option. Luckily, alarm companies require a landline so I have an old phone hooked up just for such an emergency. The unlimited long distance is just too good to pass up when you and your living-in-sin girlfriend's families live a thousand miles away. Man, that girl can talk.
Terrible karma and aiming lower, which in this environment of one-sided reason, is higher.
If you do not know who the head of dispatch is, just call the local PD or Sheriff's office and ask who they are. Titles run from Director to Supervisor, but if you say dispatch and 911 testing, they will know. On a related note, they would be more than happy to allow it.
That's why you can [supposedly] connect a phone to a jack with no service and dial 911
"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard...Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it."
A phone jack with no service will have no dial tone or talk battery, and is incapable of dialing anything, even 911!
Bring back Sirius Punk!
Exactly. The police Non-emergency number (as listed in the phonebook), would be the best to call. Now, depending on the size of your city/town, they may have NO idea what VoIP is, so you may need to try to explain it to them.. if it flys over their head, just tell them "it's a new type of phone technology".
OMG... I have a sig?
"so I can use that to make people think I things"
Yep, you're right, it's hardly even english, is it?
I don't 'try to make people' do anything.
I'm just trying to help keep you all alive. Idiots and all.
I just offer advice, you're quite entitled to ignore it if you wish. It worrys me, not at all.
And, yes, it is acceptable to qualify any advice you give with references as to how accurate it may be. Quite unlike. "Hey d000dz, smoke waaakes u up!!!!!!"
I don't need to impress people with my qualifications. I'm happy with my life.
Oh, and bonus points points for posting AC. Still working on growing that spine huh?
Oppps, there I go with all that fancy doctor talk again.
I went on Vonage's web site, followed their directions to make sure my address was in the correct database. I then called 911 from my phone, told them it was not an emergency and asked them to verify the address I was calling from. They gave me back my address right away. No problem.
"Politicians always tell the truth, when they're calling each other liars."
I'm sorry, but when I was a kid the firefighters always used to tell us to leave the house, make sure that everyone is out, and then have a neighbor call 911. Had he done this, he probably would have had time to come back and rescue his computer.
I understand that this may not apply in situations where it is a rural location and your closest neighbor lives a couple of miles away, but looking at his house from google maps... it seems like this is not the case.
I've been using Packet8 for over a year now, and have had very few (and none recent) sound quality problems. I've never tested 911, but they are going to introduce a number (933) for people using Packet8 to call that will verify their 911 info.
One thing I do recommend for people who are using a VoIP service, is that you have a dedicated UPS for your phone (if it requires AC power; mine does), cable or DSL modem, and router. I have one, and when we had a power outage of over three hours recently when multiple transformers in this area failed, I had phone service throughout.
For that matter, even if you have a POTS line, if your phone requires AC power to work, put it on a UPS. A small one will do, and it could save your life some day.