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Deadline Looming for Microsoft in Antitrust Case
gaijincory writes "The International Herald Tribune reminds us that the end of the month is Microsoft's deadline to comply with the European Commission's antitrust ruling. The fine for non-compliance? A cool $5 million per day."
... they would have a few months to figure out what they wanted to do about it.
If Microsoft is making more profit from its business practices than $5M a day, they've shown before that they'll happily pay the fine rather than change practices. Is domination of the European market worth $1.8 billion a year in fines?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Or do you think they will ever pay up?
...
Don't be redicilous - they will find their way around it. The same as they find their way around not paying taxes,
they probably pay their team of lawyers more than that per day.
The one that can't even get member states to vote for the body's Constitution?
The EU is not a country, it is a conglomeration of countries. What is their actual power to enforce these laws? Especially seeing as how banning Microsoft on a continent-wide level would be an infringement of each country's right to self-determination.
I think that someone is going to get a huge wakeup call and I doubt it is going to be Microsoft this time.
I would definitively comply. Not only because I personally do not think I would be able to scrape together the daily penalty in my whole lifetime, but also because that is a significant amount even for a corporation like Microsoft.
9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
from increasing the fine if MS doesn't comply and just pays it out?
Bill: What happen?
Executive: Somebody set up us the lawsuit.
Executive: We get subpoena.
Bill: What !
Bill: Main screen turn on.
Bill: It's you!
Judge: How are you gentlemen!
Judge: All your $5 million are belong to us.
Bill: What you say!
Judge: You have no chance to win the case make your time.
Judge: HA HA HA HA
main(0)
they're likely to go a little into the red of this fine, but it'd be stupid to think that they'd just go on for ever. yeah, sure, they make a lot of money, but it's not like they're going to just write it off. And even if they DID; don't you think the EU would try and do something to further encourage them?
"If Microsoft's final offer fails to satisfy the regulator, or if the company does not make its submission in time, the commission will write a formal letter to the company, outlining its concerns."
A formal letter? When did the world officially lose all its balls.
Unfortunately $5 million a day to Microsoft doesn't really mean much. A real way to get their attention would be to tell them comply or peddle your crap OS elsewhere.
Ubuntu: If at first you don't succeed, blindly slap a sudo in front of it
I know several people from Cornell who have applied to and work at Microsoft.
I don't think that there is any shortage of talent in the U.S., but if they aren't taking people from MIT, they certainly are taking them here.
Let see... Five million per day divided into a fifty billion piggy bank is how much? That's what Bill Gates for picking up a nickel on the sidewalk. :P
7 more reminders on slashdot's frontpage
Do you take plastic?
And the brethren went away edified.
This is almost like a personal vendetta on Microsoft directly from the EU. Noone really cares about the Microsoft anti-trust case in Europe, and the Windows XP 'Reduced Media Edition' is a flop.
It doesn't matter if the average European citizen doesn't care about this, or haven't even heard about it. The European Commission aren't involved in a popularity contest, they are supposed to enforce EU law.
Why would you buy a copy of a 'crippled' XP over a full-featured one.
"Vote Cuthulu. This time, why settle for the lesser evil?"
Its not like you cant just disable the features you don't want in XP (well, for the most part).
It is the "most part" that is a problem. Also, they are using their OS monopoly to also gain a online media monopoly. This is illegal.
Even the biggest Linux Zealot would need to admit they have come a long way since Windows 95 and are making improvements in terms of security, etc...
This is NOT about the quality of the products, this is about predatory business practices designed to enforce an unfair monopoly and kill innovation and competition.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Just because you apply for a job doesn't mean you're qualified to do it. The number of people I've interviewed who don't even understand the simple concept of a pointer just boggles the mind...
This is almost like a personal vendetta on Microsoft directly from the EU.
Excuse me? Forcing Microsoft to comply with a court order that resulted from them losing a lawsuit because they broke the law is some kind of personal vendetta?
Just because the EU doesn't roll over and let them off like the USA, it doesn't mean they have a personal vendetta. They just make sure people pay for their crimes, even if they are rich.
I wish the EU would, uh, 'bugger off' and leave MS alone to correct their ways.
Why on earth would Microsoft do that? Does a thief stop stealing if he knows he's not going to get punished?
Even the biggest Linux Zealot would need to admit they have come a long way since Windows 95 and are making improvements in terms of security, etc...
This isn't about software quality. This is about illegal anti-competitive actions.
Bill: Here's a $1,000,000 check for you and the jury
Judge: Ok, this antitrust case is over. Next.
Are you Indian or Chinese? You act like one.
Hahahahah.
As an MIT student who sees Microsoft, Google, and a number of other companies hire dozens of students each on this campus, I can only assume you pulled that number out of your ass. Microsoft goes out of its way to get people to apply, even cold-writing people at schools across the country based on articles about them in the campus papers and on the internet.
It is true, however, that Microsoft does try to hire selectively for a company with its cash. It doesn't want to get to the size of, say, IBM quite so fast. I know plenty of qualified people at MIT who have not received offers...but rest assured the really strong programmers are being recruited heavily by microsoft.
Bill will surely fill the fine. By now the guy is very used to paying fines and being sued . In fact he thrives in such an environ and gets free publicity to boot.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
Just wondering, what happens to all that money if they do pay up?
Sig: BEEeeeP,,Please press pound, so I can get on with my fucking life!
...wiping his ass with fifties instead of hundreds until this thing blows over. Big deal.
EU is just playing the buttmonkey for the Washington State USA firm, Real Networks, who does have a personal vendatta.
MS removed MediaPlayer just like the EU ordered. Then the EU scolded MS for not being able to play videos. Sounds like some kind of vendetta or personal predjudice to me.
-]Phreak Out[-
Here is the facts: "The Skills Shortage that Isn't". This article, by the reputable C|Net, does indicate that Microsoft hired only 1 of the 50 applicants from MIT.
would be in the form of free copies of WinXP and Office XP to schools in Europe. And a dinner with Blair while making the announcement, perhaps? -
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Just don't expect too much from Ms. Neelie Kroes. She has a questionable track record with respect to fair competition. If you speak dutch.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Obviously this is up for amendment at any time, but "Although the amount of fine should act as a sufficient deterrent to firms, it may not under any circumstances exceed 10% of their worldwide turnover."
The appropriate Guidelines
The money isn't going to hurt these people - it's the bad publicity.
Of course, MS dittoheads, lackies and lusers might kick up such a fuss, that if MS holds out, they might spin it into "Those Mean Old Europeans are Picking in a Good American Corporation" and after a few years, the Europeans might just give up.
Also. once the judgement is passed, it's not like they're going to get busted again - they're already in the doghouse of international opinion.
My guess is they will find some kind of settlement, and brush it under the carpet. With the kind of Social Amnesia that your average idiot American suffers under, it'll all be forgotten in six months, like Iraqi WMD, and Japanese Internment Camps...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
You got any sources to back that assertion up? Not saying it's not true, just that that's the first I've heard of it (and I'm European).
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Speaking of people Microsoft doesn't hire...
Microsoft is still running a significant number of people around their "temporary worker" carousel. Of course, with Microsoft's policies to avoid "permatemp" issues, these workers are only availible to Microsoft about 6 months of the year. I wonder if that somehow effects the potential supply...
(See the Patriot Act.)
The joke is on the EU anyway... Bill put a EULA on the check.
They'll comply for two reasons.
First, and foremost, as a previous post said, they simply cant afford a 5 mil $ a day hit to the bottom line. I doubt they make 5 million+ a day in europe, and even if they did, not enough of it would be from their practices that they're being asked to stop.
Second, and almost equally important is a show of good faith that the EU wants to see from them. If they were to not comply, and/or perhaps refuse to pay the fine (extremely unlikely) that would end up with a lot of powerful people angry at them pretty quickly. My guess is that the US state department would lean on MSFT to cooperate w/ the EU. The U.S. simply cant afford to have one of it's premier companies acting in bad faith, as it would reflect poorly on Americans (whether that should be the case is another argument, but the fact is that many foriegners view America in part through it's major corporations, i.e. MSFT, McDonalds, CocaCola, etc)
From a buisness perspective, I expect them to have whatever needs to be done done by the deadline, or very close to it.
On the curiosity side, would someone care to outline exactly what it is the EU is demanding that MSFT do to 'comply'?
...why Microsoft gets punished for bundling software (IE, WMP, etc) when the more popular Linux distributions pretty much work by bundling? For example, Xandros installs Firefox. Aren't we really talking about the same difference, here?
To compete with Linux, it seems to me that there is no other recourse but to offer a competing package.
Really, this is not a flamebait, someone explain how to me why a company is not entitled to compete with alternative platforms with similar offerings?
Is competing anti-competitive? Is the EU protecting their customers, businesses, or special interests?
Man, if only Bill Gates had a nickel for everytime Windows crashed, he could pay his way out...
Oh wait, he does.
- shadowmatter
Well first of all, linux will bundle a bunch of browsers in their distributions so you can pick wich one you like. In my mandrake distribution I got konqueror by default but there where a bunch of other browsers there too. Even lynx!;-). The problem is that in windows by making ie default, your getting a head start in the market wich isn't that small a thing when you consider average joe isn't gonna search for a better browser. The real problem then comes when microsoft closes up standards. Then the default browser becomes the 'optimal browser to view this page'. This is also the problem with wmv and the media player.... The problem is average joe control!
The last time I looked at the figures of Microsoft's *cash* holdings, a few months ago, they were $47 Billion (that's 'Billion' with a 'B', kids). Assuming Microsoft never made another penny profit and simply broke even from here on out, they would have slightly over 25 *years* to pay that fine every day before they ran out of cash.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Funny how a story about EU politics is on a US flag background. :)
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I wonder what the EU would do if Microsoft decided to fight back? What's preventing them from taking a page from IBM's playbook and firing people, mostly in Europe, to make up for the $5 million a day? I'm not sure how many employees Microsoft has in Europe, but it would likely put a serious dent in that $5 million.
Please stop hurting America -- Jon Stewart
MS could have avoided this completely (for Media anyway) one of two ways:
1) Open up the WMA/MWV formats under the BSD license
2) Not use WMA/MWV in Media Player. Use the standards.
Are Linux distros allowed to include media players (XMMS) and browsers (Konqueror, Firefox, Mozilla), but Microsoft is not? If Microsoft should not be allowed to include Windows Media Player on WindowsXP, neither should any other operating system be allowed to include their media player by default - and neither should OTHER media players be included by default. In short, the better solution would be to have the most popular media players all available in a default install - IE, install Windows, and it gives you a menu of which player you want installed. Same with Linux. I'm all for justice, but it's not justice if it's a double standard.
"We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
Does Bill Gates have a paypal account we can donate funds to and help save Microsoft?
WTF? you link to an entirely irrelevant article.
The spell Microsoft with a $ character
Then put together an entirely illogical argument: perhaps the applicants weren't *good* enough to work at Microsoft? Perhaps the students at MIT didn't *want* to work at Microsoft.
Then you get modded as "Interesting". Mods: what'cha smoking?
Microsoft are just being dicks and thumbing their noses at entire governments. Again. Anyone who can't see that they need to be dealt serious punishment for this behaviour needs their head read - no company should be this powerful.
Not really. Microsoft has no serious business at all in Europe. Mostly sales, marketing and some training. By firing these people, they'll hurt their own sales figures more than they'll hurt a bunch of politicians: is Kamikaze.
The "IBM trick" works best for jobs that you were planning to move anyway, like R&D outsourcing. And I'm not sure IBM is doing this just to piss of the EU.
The Commission also instructed Microsoft to license confidential Windows code to competitors, allowing them to produce server software that works with Windows Full of shit! The Commission never instructed Microsoft to produce a single line of "code". Juste communication protocols. The IHT is basically refurbishing Microsoft propaganda and spinning an anti-business view of the Commission. sad.
Somebody needs to hire a web-designer who wasn't trained on Frontpage.
Also - a minor point, the $47 billion that MS apparently has, is not cash under the pillow. What it does have is a share value (not sure of terminology) of $47 billion.
Once shareholders see that shrinking - and believe me, they're watching, they're going to sell, sell, sell. The downward spiral. Now this does not give them 21.7 years (as some other bright spark commented) to comply with the regulation.
R.
Isn't the whole concept of fining a company with a monopoly ill-founded? They will just pass on their increased costs to the customer, a few extra cents per license.
That would be a great move from them to fire their zombies in EU, it's about time they start to pack their luggage and go home, in Redmond WA.
IMHO, Microsoft will comply and stop bundling MS Media Player with Windows in EU because they have nothing to lose from it. I mean, c'mon guys the only way to hit M$ on the desktop is to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed. And M$ blackmails people not to do that (at least here in Greece).
www.lemonodor.com A mostly Lisp weblog
Why would you buy a copy of a 'crippled' XP over a full-featured one
Why, some would question why anyone would pay for a fully-featured WXP. Hands up all those who have!
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
What if microsoft refuses to pay up? What's the EU going to do then? They can't really stop microsoft products being sold in the EU, there would be a europe-wide riot. If ms refuses to pay, the EU wont be able to do a thing.
95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
yes they demonstrated 'using' video tech without the WM interface, But really it was bullshit because they still were using WM, just without the GUI. MS removed it in its entirety as requested and the EU now complains because they realise "oops people really don't want this do they"
Why do you not see the difference between a set of libraries that provide functionality that applications can use, and applications that use them?
Users use applications. The competition is between applications. Microsoft bundles applications. Microsoft can kill competitors by bundling applications. Microsoft should not bundle applications. Microsoft was forbidden from bundling applications.
Users don't see libraries. The competition is not between libraries. Microsoft bundles libraries. Microsoft cannot kill competitors by bundling libraries. Microsoft should bundle libraries. Microsoft was not forbidden from bundling libraries.
You really can't see the difference?
BTW, the above applies to Internet Explorer vs the Trident rendering engine as well. Microsoft argued that Internet Explorer was part of the operating system and could not be removed, when in actual fact it was Trident that was part of the operating system and could not be removed. Netscape couldn't have cared less if Trident was bundled with Windows, but Internet Explorer being bundled with Windows damn near killed them.
Try five hundred BILLION dollars.
</drevil>
Media player is just one of the many things they needed to do.
Licencing the patents/technologies to allow other vendors (including opensource) to interoperate with Windows - that is the significant part that they don't want to do, ever.
Only a cool $5 million in kickbacks per day? That ought to just about cover the payoffs to the EU commission, so that they can afford to pay for the Micro$loth OS/Software licenses they need to administrate the team working on enforcing compliance. For Microsoft money well spent!
Shipping with out the Windows media player allows for other media players to gain a foot hold, but a the browser would still be IE. I think they should ship both IE AND Firefox and let the consumers pick which one they want.
However, the treaty of Rome and subsequent enabling treaties which empower the EU compeitition ministry to do this also gives them one other important power which they have so far not used; the right to set aside and void contracts. This was originally intended to set asside member state and commercial contracts which were created under unfair bids, but I don't recall seeing anything in the treaty language nessisarly limiting it's action in this regard other than past uses. What if the EU competition ministry really grew a set, and choose instead to try and void the Microsoft EULA within the European Union as an instrument of unfair bargaining by an illegal monopoly? It may just actually have the authority to do this. Certainly it does have the clear authority, which it has used before, to explicitly cancel existing government and private contracts, though would normally do so individually rather than wholesale. Certainly if they even tried to do this, whether attacking large individual contracts, or, wholesale liberation of their consumers, it would be a much more effective action against Microsoft's monoply business practices than any piddly fine...
France had an illegal (under EU law) ban on importing British beef for years and they never paid their fines. The French and German governments have also flagrantly broken the rules of the euro's growth and stability pact without paying the statutory fines.
Man, if only Bill Gates had a nickel for everytime Windows crashed, he could pay his way out...
Well in 2003 there were 593,085,000 PC's. There were 42.8 million PC's sold in Q2 2004, for simplicity lets assume that these sales remain stable for the period Q1 2004 to the end of Q2 2005 - this would equal 256,800,000 PC's baught in this period. I don't have any figures showing how many of these purchases will be replacements rather than new users, therefore I shall be conservative and say 50% are replacements giving a total number of PC's in the world at a very rough estimate by the end of Q2 2005 to be 721,485,000. About 95% of PC's run Windows, therefore the number of Window's PC's in the world at the end of Q2 2005 would equal approximately 685,410,750.
Let us assume that each Window's PC crashes twice per week, worldwide that's 1,370,821,500 windows crashes per week which equals 71,529,465,870 worldwide windows crashes per year.
A Nickel is worth 5 cents, so the amount of money you would receive per crash per year (pcpy) if you had a Nickel for every time Windows crashed would be $3,576,473,293.5, or $3.58 Billion. Windows was released in 1985 so if we assumed that there were a constant number of PC's from 1985 to 2005 that would be $71.53 billion. Of course there weren't as many PC's in 1985 so that figure would actually be a lot lot less.
As Billy No Gates has a personal wealth of over $61 billion it is safe to say that your argument has been proved!
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
does mommy China know you got her credit card ?
It supports all the software I use (music production s/w), which Linux does not, and contrary to slashbots' comical belief, it is extremely stable and has never given me a BSOD.
In the context of the price you pay for a music production PC, the cost of XP is trivial. My soundcard alone cost several times as much.
Well, that's 50 MIT *applicants*, and they sure are good enough for MS, so either MS has ridiculous requirements or the offers were so bad they turned them down; in either case, it's MS's fault. And for the record, I'm not from the USA, I don't even want to go there for a visit, that's a fucked up country, and I come from the so called 3rd world.
> EU law supercedes the law of member states when the 2 come into conflict
Certainly not in Poland. A recent ruling by the Constitutional Tribunal (which judges on laws' adherence to the Polish Constitution) stated clearly, that Polish law is still the highest and nor the Europen Constitution nor any other law will supercede Polish law.
That ruling was an effect of some radical right-wing parties trying to prove the Eu Constitution will stop Poland from being sovereign or something. I don't really care - these people are so narrow-minded - but the event got pretty big news coverage in Poland.
No, Teh spell Micro$oft with a $ character, and it will always be teh funny, no matter how many times I see it.
I think this is something the computer vendors should take care of; I don't mind if separate copies of Windows contain IE, after all there needs to be a way for people to download Firefox or Opera or whichever browser they really want :) However, forcing IE on people when they are buying a computer should be forbidden.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
The EULA is no legal binding document in most European countries anyway, as far as I know.
I'd tell all the EU that they are having their Windows and other MS licenses pulled and to comply immediately. Those that do not will then be sued.
:)
Imagine the fun mayhem as governments find themselves having to remove their software and have to deal with an immediate change.
Imagine the home users now all being pirates
Ahhhh...what fun it would be. Personally, the EU should be told to fuck off.
This will not effect our plans to create our empire. You cannot stop us! We've already begun implanting mind control chips into the masses of whining sheep. Ours is the only way. Those that oppose us will be labled radical extremists and alienated from society.
Long Live Microsoft! Long Live Capitalism! (and my 401k)
Judges issue fines to encourage you to change your ways. If you don't do that, they will start doing other things, perhaps increase the fine or put people in jail. Bill may go to Europe to snatch an honory Knighthood and wham! In jail like a common thief! Ok, so he would probably get the really nice jail suite with no bars, cable and a servant.
What is my agenda?
I wish to live in a peaceful, integrated Europe, which is capable of managing the change from living off the developing world (as we do just now) to supporting it and accepting it as an equal.
I think we believe different things because we come from different cultures in Europe. As has been said many times, a French No is very different to a British No, or even a French Yes to a British Yes. I'm not from France.
most people do not even understand the first page for christ sake.
Given that the first page is the passage quoted (unless you count the title/preface), I find that hard to believe. I read the first 50 pages in half an hour or so, without too many problems. For the curious, it's available on the web en fr.
of a lot of very important parts of this "constitution", but yet, you understand all of it very clearly ?
Some of it uses deliberately vague language to allow wiggle room for the various partner states. There are many 'get out clauses' (which they refer to amusingly as passerelles in the English text (ça sent le français original parfois, il faut le dire)) for the various nation states that didn't want to sign up to all of it at once. I can see how that could lead to ambiguity. I didn't say I understood every nuance, I said it was remarkably clear for a text which deals with so many issues.
Have you read it?
If you expect something to be legally watertight it is very difficult to make it at the same time clear. I am in no way saying this document is perfect, but it is not the source of all evil as you seem to hint. Many of the national laws in France and the UK are just as obscure, if not far far worse.
Perhaps the worst part, is that this "constituion" defines the economic regime. This is the worst thing you could find in a constitution (we can see the effects with the software patents episode), but it does not seem to be a big deal to you.
Economics is integral to politics, and this document supercedes many treaties, and thus incorporates their rules. These treaties were agreed upon by all the nation states. Those rules will be in no way changed by a yes or a no to the constitution. Are you really suggesting that we repeal the common market, is that what you want? Would that solve economic problems in France?? ?
To say, as the constitution does,
based on balanced economic growth, a social market economy, highly competitive and aiming at full employment and social progress.
is a balance between the free market economics which now dominate the agenda in Europe and the feeling that we should strive to uphold our standards, not lower them to the lowest common denominator (le nivellement par le bas). Europe is not France and the UK is not America - there are many shades of social democracy, and the argument is over which particular shade we want to aspire to. Now I can't say I agree with many of the policies in the UK right now but just as an example often not cited in the current French debate the public services of each nation are explicitly defended in this document, the cultural exception is there.
Frankly, living in France, I find the debate here on the constitution dissapointing, desolant, in its insistance on the corrupt right wing government in power, the economy, and the difficult situation for most French workers. Will voting no change any of that? If you aspire to a better constitution, by all means fight for one - this one could in many ways be improved. If you wish to live in a France unbuffetted by the changes the world is undergoing, which will forever live as in the halcyon days of les trentes glorieuses, you are living in the past.
The most disturbing thing about the debate right now in France is that if the constitution is rejected this time by France, the next proposa
Actually you are wrong. I do not know the exact figure but Microsoft does have $40-$50 Billion in cash.
The term you are looking for is Market Capitalization which is the value of outstanding shares of Microsoft multiplied by the current stock value. Current MSFT has a MarketCap of $278.5 Billion. Change in the Market cap is caused by change in M$ stock price. Investors cause the change, not the other way around. i.e. If investors are pleased with MSFT they bid the stock price up which raises the MarketCap; if investors are unhappy with MSFT the stock price goes down lowering the MarketCap.
Looking for a job?
Want your resume written professionally?
DON'T USE TUNAREZ!!!
Tell M$ either comply with the requirements, or they remove all rights to sell any windows OS except 3.1.
What movie?
It sounds like the EU is saying:
"We don't know exactly what we want you to do, so make proposals until we tell you one is adequate. By the way, if you don't come up with a proposal we like by the deadline, we're going to fine you."
Let's say 10% of MS's revenue is from Europe (~$10million/day). If they raise their European prices by 50%, that covers the fine, but raises their world wide revenue by $5million/day, which adds $250,000 to the fine, which can be passed on by an additional 2.5% of the original amount.
If I could remember my math I could figure out the exact amount they need to raise prices in Europe to pass all the costs on to Europeans, but I doubt it's over 53%.
So Real has more clout than Microsoft?
Use the $5 million a day to fund open source projects like OpenOffice, Linux, and Firefox. And projects aimed at getting Linux ready for Joe sixpack's desktop. Also use the money to fund Microsoft to Linux migrations in the government.
$5 million is *a lot* of money and could really accelerate the competition.
If the EU had the backbone to follow through and ignore Microsoft's complaints/suits, there would be two possible outcomes:
1) Microsoft doesn't comply and the competition gets so strong that Microsoft will fall behind in all areas.
2) Microsoft will realize that (1) will happen before it has time to prepare, so it'll comply in a hurry.
In either case, competition is restored.
> When can we get some new jokes?
s a=N&tab=wi
Here's a real joke you haven't seen on Slashdot yet:
http://images.google.com/images?q=bush&hl=en&lr=&
As well her being "naked and petrified"...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Isn't it also within their power to simply bar MS from doing business in the EU? No local sales, no one allowed to import the products from outside? Given the size of the MS market in Europe and the howls of outrage that would occur when businesses and consumers have to begin switching to other software, that's a game of chicken that I'd pay to see.
If what is collected from that fines is then, put as-is, or a big percentage to found Open Source initives, particulary OpenOffice, Linux itself (including drivers), KDE, Gnome, Wine and all those piece that 'make the desktop', then Microsoft would face a REAL PROBLEM.
5m$ may not be much in the corporate world, but in the open source world, it's enough to turn the world upside down.
Pupeno
So, I have to agree that the reason Microsoft is a monopoly has nothing to do with Media Player or IE. As a reminder as to the real reason, which I haven't really seen addressed yet... Here's a repost of an article from 2002. Sorry, it's long, but important to remember. Here's the sad story of BeOS.
He Who Controls the Bootloader
End of an Era
Scot Hacker, August 2001
The day before I submitted this column, news hit the net that the other shoe had finally dropped. After months of waiting and wondering what was to become of Be, we learned that Palm, Inc. will be purchasing Be's technology, intellectual property, and assets. While we don't yet know exactly what Palm plans to do with Be, my guess is that the company intends to beef up and extend its product line -- make palm-sized devices more media-friendly, and possibly build appliance-like units for the home. As analyst William Crawford recently said, "Where they have to go, Be already is." Be's lightweight footprint and excellent media handing capabilities make the technology a good fit. Be will receive $11 million in Palm stock, which they intend to liquidate to pay off debts. Considering that Apple allegedly once considered paying $125 million for Be, Palm got Be for a song -- a fire-sale blowout.
Palm initially stated that they don't intend to develop a desktop version of BeOS, which means the version of BeOS you're using now may be the last one you'll ever see. However, users who have corresponded with Palm's top ranks have been met with an open ear, and BeFAQs is currently preparing a full report on the state and potential of the BeOS user base for the big cheeses at Palm. Whether the report will have any effect is anybody's guess, but barring a miracle, it seems that BeOS is now officially dead in terms of its prospects for further evolution. That, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's dead to the users who already have it installed. The BeOS userbase will likely become similar to the Amiga userbase - hanging on to those souped-up boxes out of sheer love for years, maybe decades.
Some in the community met the news with relief. Others simply seem exhausted by the endless process of battling ridiculous odds, and are ready to move on to something else. But many still believe deeply in what Be is and what they've created. Believe that there is a way to best Microsoft at its own game (without having to tread the open source quaqmire). Believe that there is no better desktop user experience, period.
But the reality is that Be's failure has made a point to the world, to whit: "Don't bother trying to create a better commercial desktop OS -- it doesn't matter how hard you try, how many engineers you throw at the problem, how much money you spend, or how many years you put into it. Microsoft owns that space and, worse, the public is totally complicit with that fact. People will not stop using Windows. It is a losing battle."
It is unlikely now that anyone will ever again attempt what Be, Amiga, and IBM attempted. And that's the saddest thing of all -- the insidious ways in which the monopoly has wormed itself into the fabric of our economy and culture. The message that "resistance is futile" has been hammered home. The only OS projects that stand a chance are open source, because they don't play by the rules of the economy. But open source projects seem either unable or unwilling to create a system that approaches the elegance, speed, and ease-of-use of BeOS. If you want an x86 system with a future, you're now bound either to the mess of GNU/Linux or to the Windows donkey cart, with all of the political and technological baggage that entails.
Speaking of the insidious tendrils of The Monopoly and its effect on small companies like Be who dare to set foot in the ogre's front yard, on with this month's intended column.
Peaceful Co-Existence? Right.
It is statistically unlikely that a person purchasing a new computer is ever going to change its operating system -- the OS that comes with the computer you
So the fact that one of your victims had a strong interest in seeing you get caught for your crimes means it's OK to ignore a court order leveled against you for breaking the law?
While I agree there are certainly worthwhile elements in the EU constitution, I would vote 'no' (if my country hadn't withdrawn a promised referendum on the matter), because it fails to do what it should do: make sure that the EU *IS* a democracy.
It's not about ambitious integration, it's about not integrating enough, in a democratic way. The only part in the whole EU that represents directly the 'populace' is the EU parliament. But, while they get some marginal more power as lipservice, the EC (by any other name) is still the one that makes the law. And, I should remind you, that the EC is a bunch of unelected beaurocrats, who do not represent the people, aren't voted by them into office, and don't have any political responsability towards the EU citizens. Yet, they decide on creating laws that could affect millions of those same EU citizens. Does that strike you as fair, or even reasonable? Not to me. To me, it's complete idiotic and utterly undemocratic. In comparison, the EC ALOS got more power, even more so then the EU, which, in total makes things worse instead of better, in the light of becomming a true democracy.
What one should have done is to abolish the EC and the counsel of ministers, whome both are not voted into the positions they have by the populace - unless by far proxy, but that's no proper way of being democratic. Replace them by a senate, and by a directly voted EU president. And make very clear that cultural/moral/ethical/etc subjects stay a matter of soevereign countries; we don't want a one-taste-for-all blending, after all. So keep the petty regulations about stuff the EU shouldn't mess with away, and concentrate on those things that really DO matter; like forming a united front in matters of foreign diplomacy and the military.
Instead, the current trend of the EU is just the oposite: less democracy, more bureaucrats, more meddling in internal affairs, and remaining weak at just the points we should strive to be stronger.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
The idea does get bandied about at slashdot, but there is absolutely no legal basis whatsoever for the EU commission to make such a decision. I suppose a ban would be an option in the hypothetical case that MS software was shown to be a severe health risk to its users, but that still wouldn't be in the power of the EU competition authority.
I wouldn't call myself a Microsoft fan though I don't hate Microsoft. They are trying to run a business. I don't blame them for doing that. I am sure that many would say, if given that kind of world market share, they would be more giving and gracious to their competitors but I doubt it. Where is their graciousness now? Microsoft is a convenient money tree for countries and companies that can not compete with them. If you can't create a competitive product sue Microsoft to keep yourself out of the red. I suppose people seem to think that Microsoft should just give away its market share without fighting back. I don't hear anyone being honest about these ridiculous lawsuits. Please be honest, most of the people I have read in this thread would love to see Microsoft hurt. They don't care what lengths people have to go through to hurt them. They just want to see the great Microsoft topple. That way all their favorite little companies will be able to grab a little market share. If any one of them found themselves in Microsoft's position, they would be exactly like them! They don't care what lengths they need to go through to topple Microsoft and Microsoft doesn't care what lengths they have to do to stay on top. If they really hated what Microsoft stood for they wouldn't be rolling around in the same mud. Right now Linux is doing well. It still doesn't have a huge market share but it is improving and I have confidence that it will continue to do so. I am really excited about how much easier it is becoming to use. It will be difficult to overcome Microsoft but I honestly think that time will find Linux as a competitive product. The problem that needs to be overcome isn't Microsoft. It's the people and software development. People are not really caught up on Microsoft's operating system as they are the products that are made for it. I could care less what operating system I am running on my PC as long as I can play my games and other favorite software applications without a hassle. That is all I want. I am a customer. Fulfill my needs. Do people buy a game console because the console is cool or because they like the games? Give me my software and you have my business! I am sure I will get plenty of hate responses about this and that is ok. A little flame won't bother me. I would love to see Linux as a competitor to Microsoft but I would much rather it be because it had superior ideas. Not because a mass of people who just hated the largest software company felt they needed to file suite after suite to bring down the "evil" company. Agree or disagree? Creep73
"of countries" ... working together.
Rather like states combined for common purposes, subsuming some functions and powers into a shared administration. Ours are (still) quite limited in both function and power, but don't assume that looseness is weakness.
Microsoft paid a dividend because:
1. The stock had flatlined and was starting to crash. Paying a dividend helped keep it stable while MS initiated a buyback program.
2. Bill realized MS will fold in his lifetime, probably within a decade. Of the $10 billion distributed, $1 billion went to him. That should provide a nice retirement.
About the fine: MS would rather pay it than hurt their business by doing what the EU want. It could become a standardized and legal bribe for the EU to leave MS alone. How much will an extra $1.8 billion/year affect the EU budget? How much is it worth for MS to continue business as usual?
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
That's because you're not a huge corporate entity. Enron, Tycho, all those execs are getting a slap on the wrist, and maybe some time at Club Fed, and they've been doing that shit for years. The law doesn't work the same for corporations as it does for us normal (well, as normal as anyone on slashdot is...) folk.
Yeah, just look at Exxon and Union Carbide. Fishermen and villagers in Alaska have yet to receive anything from Exxon Valdez, as have many villagers in Bhopal, India for the gas cloud that killed many. Corporations and their officers need to be held accountable. The corporate aristocracy thinks they can get away with anything.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I think of a few more recent examples of a (republican) president lying about some key evidence.
Both Democrats and Republicans have been caught lying in court or the congress as well as to the public
FalconOf course I can bash both parties, I'm a Jeffersonian Democrat, otherwise know as a Libertarian.
Should there be a Law?
How many dividends has MS paid out? How many lawsuits does MS find it self in? And how often has shareholders complaigned? Never.
If I recall right MS as only paid dividends once, a special dividend paid out last tyear.
FalconShould there be a Law?
MS reported $2,560,000,000 profit last quarter. Spread over 90 days that's $28,444,444.44 profit per day. That means that $5,000,000 per day is about 17.6% of their profit. If the EU provides less than 17.6% of MS's market then it'll be actively costing them money to remain operating in Europe.
Is it $5,000,000 or 5%? I've seen both quoted. If it's 5% taking $28M per day then the fine if $1.4M. Another thing, is the $28M per world wide or just in the EU, and if it's world wide then I don't think the EU could fine them on that, it could only fine them on EU sales.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Hmm...aren't there some european countries in Microsoft's Shared Source initiative? If the contract is voided and they have the source, couldn't they fork it into an open source project? Or a closed source project, but that's not as fun.
Sure, people wouldn't legally be allowed to use it in the US (the copyright would still be valid here), but the other five billion people would be able.
I can dream can't I?
Where is the Love? and whats up with all the queer talk? Oh! Your one of those guys.
I want this stupid newsletter to quit clogging up my e-mail!!!!Now I'm hooked on the "Damn Thing"I need the Damn Thing N
they do try to take them from MIT, but a rabid RMS chases after them as they try to leave the campus and devours them in a satanic ritual involving a gnu.
Nothing wrong with that ;)
Me (Blog)
Oo! Me!
Derive Politics
The majority of the EU Parliament is in fact Conservative parties (European People's Party Group).
For every $5m fine levied, fire 100 workers in EU territories. The problem will solve itself.