Yes, some Open Source software is definitely too complex and doesn't have readable code to outsiders. But there is also software who does.
Could you give an example that I could verify?
I'm no great coder, but I do contribute here and there, when I have the knowledge.
Take this as a compliment if you prefer, but I would guess you're a great coder if you can do that.
Thinking about all the "Aunt Jane"s is not entirely correct either. Just because *you* are never going to be able to modify some software, doesn't mean that it isn't valuable to you that someone else (than the original author) can. This last point is often overlooked by those who have not yet seen the point in open source.
That's missing the point though. Having the source code isn't just supposed to help experts, but *everyone* who can program. If there really is a commitment to allowing "millions of eyes" to help out, you can't allow these artificial barriers.
But some code is poorly structured and not well documented. That's bound to be true both with open source and proprietary code. It's no more of a problem with open source than with proprietary code, it's just that you happen to be able to see it. At the worst, the open source will degenerate to something equivalent with free-as-in-beer closed source, because noone except the author can change it. It's still redistributable, though. And if everything else fails, you can always rewrite the code, and look at the code to hopefully understand *some* nits and bits here and there.
Even ignoring your "hey, just rewrite the program!" suggestion, you're again missing the point. The question is not:
"Does the end user benefit more from open or closed source?"
It's
"Does open source software live up to the promises of helping people to learn from the code and allowing numerous people to contribute to it?"
And I think, to the second (relevant) question, there answer is no, it is not living up to that promise.
I think we're talking past each other. I'm referring to the source code, not the executable program's usability. So the comments about taking courses in using one or the other are irrelevant.
Photoshop's source isn't open, so I can't make the comparison (though I'd assume it's meticulously well-documented). And no, I don't want to write a file importer plugin. I want to go to the part of the source that adds the image manipulation options, add one, and then write the algorithm for the image manipulation. Is that too much too ask???
Well, we can't mod stories yet, but if we could, you should.
All too often, the people "open sourcing" their software are the same ones who have this elitist attitude of "if you don't have enough time to gather reams of knowledge, don't bother hoping to understand the source". Honestly -- how many of you would be capable of knowing where to add code to GIMP if you wanted to add your own image manipulation/comparison algorithm?
For me, even though I know C++, most C++ FOSS source code might as well be in binary. Once I wanted to adapt an open source word processor to suit my needs, and there's no way I would ever hope to do with an existing FOSS program.
So why do they need to keep raising taxes or reducing benefits to keep it afloat? Hell, I can keep *any* scheme working as long as I can compel people to join and unilaterally dictate how much they get!
No, I don't think Germans are physically incapable but as a German I can tell you it takes years and years of training to sound even remotely close to the American 'w.' It's just a difficult sound to make for us, and I can say almost noone in Germany will be able to pronounce "Wii" correctly.
What confused me when I visited Germany and spoke to Germans in English (I mostly spoke in German, but sometimes they wanted to use English) was that once they know how to say "w" they say it in the wrong places. They start saying "w" where there's a "v" sound and vice versa. For example, I would hear "That vas wery interesting." Which totally confuses me -- if "w" is a challenge to begin with, why would you err on the side of saying it? I guess it's a case of hypercorrection, similar to how native English speakers trying to learn German will add umlauts to vowels where they don't belong (when speaking), simply because they assume the harder way of saying it is correct.
I tried to explain this to them, but no one understood what I was complaining about (lost in translation perhaps).
I've noticed East Indians do the same thing -- pronounce v's as w's.
It's more like saying Americans can't pronounce "Ljuba."
Okay, that was a bad example. But if you can pronounce a consonant and a vowel, it follows that you can pronounce the consonant followed by the vowel (as is the case for "we"). That doesn't necessarily hold for combining consonants you can independently pronounce, so Americans pronouncing "Ljuba" isn't analagous. (And no cheating and saying that "w" is really a vowel because you can make it in the slur between two vowels.)
Furthermore, "w" in isolation is just "u." Can you pronounce "wtii?" No cheating--you can't throw any vowel sound in after the "w."
Then everyone cheats. There is necessarily a mouth opening between two consonants; native speakers are just better at making it shorter.
Obviously the Japanese can pronounce "we," but you can pronounce "gh" as a velar fricative--you just never do, and it would feel awkward to do so (assuming you don't speak a language with that sound).
The first time I was introduced to the sound I couldn't, that's correct. That's what's at issue: within their own language and without exposure to sounds outside of it, can the Japanese (or relevant native speaker) pronounce "we" (or relevant difficult sound)? Obviously, given enough practice, and without a physical impediment, anyone can make any phonetic sound, yet "The Japanese can't pronounce 'we'" still has meaning. It's just wrong in this case. The can say "wakazashi". I'm sure they can cut out the middle.
Nevertheless, the GP was right that the submitter was in error. When you say "the Japanese can't pronounce the sound 'we' ", I (and most people) take that to mean "Japanese doesn't have the 'w' and/or 'e' sounds". Which is ridiculous. It does. So they can say it. The submitter is doing the equivalent of saying "Americans can't pronounce 'Vladi' [because 'vl' never appears at the beginning of English words]".
There's a big difference between "sorta kinda" and "really" slave labor. China does not use slave labor in its export industries. Its government puts prisoners to work in what can be called slave labor, but this is as punishment, not intended to generate monetary gain. Neither link you gave claimed slave labor, just bad working conditions, which is different from "slave labor". There can be bad working conditions without slavery (as in Chinise manufacturing) and there can be good working conditions during slavery. (doesn't justify slavery of course)
Of course, even the "bad" allegation is questionable when compared to local standards. A dollar buys much more in China than in America, for example. Plus, whenever foreign investors try to reduce their hours and with it their pay, the workers protest, often violently. (I tried to get an article about this posted on Slashdot, but surprise, it was rejected.) I also find it odd that if the same Chinese worker makes less as a farmer (and with more volatility) than in manufacturing, no one complains.
None of this is to defend the Chinese government's policies; I just wanted to correct the common misconception that imported Chinese goods come from slave labor.
Yeah, damn those bastards trying to make a profit. Profit is such a waste. It serves no purpose. Everything would be better run if it were run by non-profit organizations, or corporations whose profits were taxed 100%.
And you'll continue to be alone because you refuse to do your part in helping newcomers convert, preferring instead to lecture them that "they're getting tech support for free, so they have no right to complain".
I totally agree. Why are they trying to find new biometrics when none of the traditional hurdles associated with existing biometrics haven't been overcome? Like if it's compromised, how do you change e.g., your fingerprint or retina? And now, if someone is able to create a device to mimic your thoughts, what then? "Think different"? Thanks, Apple.
I can't wait until they have "faggy farter". They need to spend more time thinking of these names, and less on helping people switch over. After all, you don't need that big of a user base to beat Microsoft.
If every Linux user can only convice 1 other user to start using Linux, it will the the main player. Naturlay that new Linux user must also convince 1 other user.
Good point. But that also means they have to *genuinely* help them switch over. That means no "SHUT UP!!! SHUT UP!!!! I'm giving you tech support for free!!! You have no right to complain if your Linux install locked you out of your machine!!!"
Is this just a more polite way to say they don't want MS to join?
Actually, I'm half expecting that there will be an application to be invited, and the only question will be "Are you affiliated with Microsoft?", and if you answer no, you are always invited, and if you answer yes, you are never invited.
France's labor laws require them to give employment preferences to those with "seniority". That means that if you run a strip club, you have to hire and give most hours to wrinkly old women. So whatever ones existed have been shut down.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, some Open Source software is definitely too complex and doesn't have readable code to outsiders. But there is also software who does.
Could you give an example that I could verify?
I'm no great coder, but I do contribute here and there, when I have the knowledge.
Take this as a compliment if you prefer, but I would guess you're a great coder if you can do that.
Thinking about all the "Aunt Jane"s is not entirely correct either. Just because *you* are never going to be able to modify some software, doesn't mean that it isn't valuable to you that someone else (than the original author) can. This last point is often overlooked by those who have not yet seen the point in open source.
That's missing the point though. Having the source code isn't just supposed to help experts, but *everyone* who can program. If there really is a commitment to allowing "millions of eyes" to help out, you can't allow these artificial barriers.
But some code is poorly structured and not well documented. That's bound to be true both with open source and proprietary code. It's no more of a problem with open source than with proprietary code, it's just that you happen to be able to see it. At the worst, the open source will degenerate to something equivalent with free-as-in-beer closed source, because noone except the author can change it. It's still redistributable, though. And if everything else fails, you can always rewrite the code, and look at the code to hopefully understand *some* nits and bits here and there.
Even ignoring your "hey, just rewrite the program!" suggestion, you're again missing the point. The question is not:
"Does the end user benefit more from open or closed source?"
It's
"Does open source software live up to the promises of helping people to learn from the code and allowing numerous people to contribute to it?"
And I think, to the second (relevant) question, there answer is no, it is not living up to that promise.
I think we're talking past each other. I'm referring to the source code, not the executable program's usability. So the comments about taking courses in using one or the other are irrelevant.
Photoshop's source isn't open, so I can't make the comparison (though I'd assume it's meticulously well-documented). And no, I don't want to write a file importer plugin. I want to go to the part of the source that adds the image manipulation options, add one, and then write the algorithm for the image manipulation. Is that too much too ask???
Well, we can't mod stories yet, but if we could, you should.
All too often, the people "open sourcing" their software are the same ones who have this elitist attitude of "if you don't have enough time to gather reams of knowledge, don't bother hoping to understand the source". Honestly -- how many of you would be capable of knowing where to add code to GIMP if you wanted to add your own image manipulation/comparison algorithm?
For me, even though I know C++, most C++ FOSS source code might as well be in binary. Once I wanted to adapt an open source word processor to suit my needs, and there's no way I would ever hope to do with an existing FOSS program.
I looked at the link, and that's the same keyboard I use at home. Damn I need a new keyboard.
So why do they need to keep raising taxes or reducing benefits to keep it afloat? Hell, I can keep *any* scheme working as long as I can compel people to join and unilaterally dictate how much they get!
No, I don't think Germans are physically incapable but as a German I can tell you it takes years and years of training to sound even remotely close to the American 'w.' It's just a difficult sound to make for us, and I can say almost noone in Germany will be able to pronounce "Wii" correctly.
What confused me when I visited Germany and spoke to Germans in English (I mostly spoke in German, but sometimes they wanted to use English) was that once they know how to say "w" they say it in the wrong places. They start saying "w" where there's a "v" sound and vice versa. For example, I would hear "That vas wery interesting." Which totally confuses me -- if "w" is a challenge to begin with, why would you err on the side of saying it? I guess it's a case of hypercorrection, similar to how native English speakers trying to learn German will add umlauts to vowels where they don't belong (when speaking), simply because they assume the harder way of saying it is correct.
I tried to explain this to them, but no one understood what I was complaining about (lost in translation perhaps).
I've noticed East Indians do the same thing -- pronounce v's as w's.
It's more like saying Americans can't pronounce "Ljuba."
Okay, that was a bad example. But if you can pronounce a consonant and a vowel, it follows that you can pronounce the consonant followed by the vowel (as is the case for "we"). That doesn't necessarily hold for combining consonants you can independently pronounce, so Americans pronouncing "Ljuba" isn't analagous. (And no cheating and saying that "w" is really a vowel because you can make it in the slur between two vowels.)
Furthermore, "w" in isolation is just "u." Can you pronounce "wtii?" No cheating--you can't throw any vowel sound in after the "w."
Then everyone cheats. There is necessarily a mouth opening between two consonants; native speakers are just better at making it shorter.
Obviously the Japanese can pronounce "we," but you can pronounce "gh" as a velar fricative--you just never do, and it would feel awkward to do so (assuming you don't speak a language with that sound).
The first time I was introduced to the sound I couldn't, that's correct. That's what's at issue: within their own language and without exposure to sounds outside of it, can the Japanese (or relevant native speaker) pronounce "we" (or relevant difficult sound)? Obviously, given enough practice, and without a physical impediment, anyone can make any phonetic sound, yet "The Japanese can't pronounce 'we'" still has meaning. It's just wrong in this case. The can say "wakazashi". I'm sure they can cut out the middle.
Nevertheless, the GP was right that the submitter was in error. When you say "the Japanese can't pronounce the sound 'we' ", I (and most people) take that to mean "Japanese doesn't have the 'w' and/or 'e' sounds". Which is ridiculous. It does. So they can say it. The submitter is doing the equivalent of saying "Americans can't pronounce 'Vladi' [because 'vl' never appears at the beginning of English words]".
And what if I'm out to buy a bust?
You make sure you have a qualified plastic surgeon and FDA-approved silicone.
There's a big difference between "sorta kinda" and "really" slave labor. China does not use slave labor in its export industries. Its government puts prisoners to work in what can be called slave labor, but this is as punishment, not intended to generate monetary gain. Neither link you gave claimed slave labor, just bad working conditions, which is different from "slave labor". There can be bad working conditions without slavery (as in Chinise manufacturing) and there can be good working conditions during slavery. (doesn't justify slavery of course)
Of course, even the "bad" allegation is questionable when compared to local standards. A dollar buys much more in China than in America, for example. Plus, whenever foreign investors try to reduce their hours and with it their pay, the workers protest, often violently. (I tried to get an article about this posted on Slashdot, but surprise, it was rejected.) I also find it odd that if the same Chinese worker makes less as a farmer (and with more volatility) than in manufacturing, no one complains.
None of this is to defend the Chinese government's policies; I just wanted to correct the common misconception that imported Chinese goods come from slave labor.
Yeah, damn those bastards trying to make a profit. Profit is such a waste. It serves no purpose. Everything would be better run if it were run by non-profit organizations, or corporations whose profits were taxed 100%.
And you'll continue to be alone because you refuse to do your part in helping newcomers convert, preferring instead to lecture them that "they're getting tech support for free, so they have no right to complain".
Mod me down, but it's true.
I totally agree. Why are they trying to find new biometrics when none of the traditional hurdles associated with existing biometrics haven't been overcome? Like if it's compromised, how do you change e.g., your fingerprint or retina? And now, if someone is able to create a device to mimic your thoughts, what then? "Think different"? Thanks, Apple.
I can't wait until they have "faggy farter". They need to spend more time thinking of these names, and less on helping people switch over. After all, you don't need that big of a user base to beat Microsoft.
If every Linux user can only convice 1 other user to start using Linux, it will the the main player. Naturlay that new Linux user must also convince 1 other user.
Good point. But that also means they have to *genuinely* help them switch over. That means no "SHUT UP!!! SHUT UP!!!! I'm giving you tech support for free!!! You have no right to complain if your Linux install locked you out of your machine!!!"
In other words, it's not going to happen. Ever.
Is this just a more polite way to say they don't want MS to join?
Actually, I'm half expecting that there will be an application to be invited, and the only question will be "Are you affiliated with Microsoft?", and if you answer no, you are always invited, and if you answer yes, you are never invited.
France's labor laws require them to give employment preferences to those with "seniority". That means that if you run a strip club, you have to hire and give most hours to wrinkly old women. So whatever ones existed have been shut down.