French Town Tests Cashless Society

SamiousHaze writes to mention a Silicon.com article about an attempt in a French tourist town, Caen, to do away with cash in some locales. From the article: "Among [the locations in the trial] is an underground car park; the town hall; a bus stop which can transmit timetable information; a cinema poster which downloads video trailers to users' mobiles; a local supermarket, where people can pay for their groceries with a mobile phone, and a tourist information sign outside the historic Abbaye des Hommes. By touching the mobile against the 'Flytag' logo at each of these locations, users can pay for services or receive information straight to their phone."

Comments

Re:Cue the French jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Look mom , no hands.

You mean Caen, don't you?

[Dynamoo]

Normandy isn't a town - it's a whole region. I suspect many Normans regard it as a country in it's own right (bloody Vikings). Specifically, the article mentions Caen (which is a city).

Now, Caen is an interesting place. It's hardly a sleepy backwater - it's the busiest urban centre in the area. (And the traffic is awful). It's actually a very modern, thriving city that was rebuilt after being almost completely destroyed in the aftermath of the D-Day invasion in 1944 (even most of the pretty bits are actually restoration of the original buldings). I'd suggest that of all the places I've been to in France, Caen is certainly one of the top runners when it comes to modernity.

Also, the French are pretty keen on their plastic and were early adopters of payment cards and related technologies. So.. it'll be interesting to see how this experiment pans out because it's being carried out in more-or-less ideal conditions.

Re:You mean Caen, don't you?

[Nesetril]

the drug dealers accept plastic too? can they put you on a payment plan, like? or is it "I regret to inform you, sir, your credit has been reached and breached quite some time ago... ahh, hard currency, that will do nicely." (Trainspotting)

Re:You mean Caen, don't you?

[Creedo]

Damn, man, have you ever tried to move a tank through Caen? You have to keep rebuilding bridges, and blowing up gates. It's a real PITA. Helps if you have a covert ops, though.

Re:You mean Caen, don't you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus said to his disciples: "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" - Luke 22:36

Do you understand that in context or is that a random verse out of context like in Pulp Fiction? Read on through verse 53.

Re:You mean Caen, don't you?

[xx_toran_xx]

What's /truly/ funny is that parent got modded insightful, which means that the moderators did not pick up on the references to Enemy Territory. Which, I might add, is a great game.

Re:You mean Caen, don't you?

[ArsenneLupin]

which means that the moderators did not pick up on the references to Enemy Territory. Which, I might add, is a great game.

Or, alternatively, which means that the moderator (note the singular... the other mod was indeed funny) thought that the comment was so funny that it actually deserved positive karma for it (funny mods don't give karma... so if you want to reward the author of an especially witty comment, you use something else)

Damn

[taskforce]

I read the headline thinking it might be some kind of experiment into anti-materialist anarchism... then up on reading the summary I realised that by "cashless" they meant "physically cashless, so you don't have anything that can be traded for goods and services if they decide to pull your card".

Somewhat different I must say.

Re:Damn

[mwilli]

Even in the Star Trek universe they have latinum.

Re:Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely not that same. One of the experiments has an actual chance of working.

Re:Damn

[JediTrainer]

physically cashless, so you don't have anything that can be traded for goods and services if they decide to pull your card

Sounds more and more like a real-life version of PayPal, right? The scary part is when they arbitrarily (and unilaterally) decide to freeze your funds and make it next to impossible to get them back, even if you did nothing wrong.

Re:Damn

[alphamerik]

Hmmm, so that would make it physically communist, but virtualy capitalist.

Sounds like anarchy in the making to me.

Re:Damn

[cayenne8]

"...physically cashless, so you don't have anything that can be traded for goods and services if they decide to pull your card"."

Isn't this something we presently today call at credit card??? Maybe more accurately, American Express? You use the card, in at EOM you pay it off in full.

Why the hell would I want to put this on my cell phone? I will much more easily lose that rather than my wallet with drivers license, credit cards and chicks phone numbers in it....and even occasionally cash.

This thing is actually going the opposite direction of the way I'm trying to operate these days...on a CASH basis...getting away from credit cards...and the associated tracking that goes with it...I prefer the false information grocery store bonus card and cash for my purchases.

Re:Damn

[neersign]

similarly, when I read the title, I was thinking a "sex for drugs" type of trade...not an E-Z Pass.

Re:Damn

[identity0]

I've always wondered what it would be like if a country like North Korea caught up to modern levels of surveilance and IT infrastructure. Not just a country communist in name like China or really corrupt like Zimbabwe, really Orwellian in E. German or N. Korean-style surveilance state mode.

With modern tech, there's really nothing you could hide from a state like that. The main problem old totalitarians had was that their data was kept on paper, so it was hard to search, cross-reference and review. If those countires had tech like Google, on the other hand...

With this cashless system, you oculd keep track of all transactions that happen. Only barters and personal favors could slip past, and it'd be hard to have a black market based on that. Even better for a communist country, you could stop individuals exchanging cash for foreign currency by making all exchanges go through the central bank.

Re:Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

Only barters and personal favors could slip past, and it'd be hard to have a black market based on that.

You'd be surprised. In the 20s (high inflation), mid/latewar and Occupation Period Germany, there was a ton of black market activity based precisely on bartering/personal favors.

It just depended on someone having something valuable - namely cigarettes, soap, food (butter and fat was in high demand), gold (jewelery), etcetera. Basic necessities and luxuries, both.

During the war, the money was still worth something, but what good was having money if you couldn't buy anything with it (rationing), so it was already building up then (and big wigs like Goering was actually trading in the black market to make their own riches, corrupt politicians today in such a system would be doing the same).

The money became next to worthless after the war outside Germany (inside, you could still buy rations with it), the black market continued to thrive until the new currency was introduced in 1948 (and every family got starting money), where suddenly the store shelves were filled with more products than people could handle (it was the opposite situation before). But the black market still continued well into the 50's - now operating with money.

It's true, a black market based on bartering isn't as fluid as with money, but I'm sure it still could exist. Governments so intent on clamping down every single transaction will probably be prohibitive in other ways, and that will allow the black market to exist.

Also, paper money is a relatively new invention:
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/northamerica.ht ml

There will always be some form of cash

[Rude Turnip]

Even if it isn't the government-sancationed variety. I don't know of too many people that would willingly create a transaction record of payments for various of their habits.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[DerekLyons]

Even if it isn't the government-sancationed variety. I don't know of too many people that would willingly create a transaction record of payments for various of their habits.

At least here in the US virtually everyone does, via their ATM cards - whether they realize it or not.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[cayenne8]

"At least here in the US virtually everyone does, via their ATM cards - whether they realize it or not."

How do you figure? They don't know what you do with the $$'s after you leave the ATM.

Just curious, how would they trace what you did with it legal or no?

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[Daravon]

In the US, many (most, all, 90+%?) of bank issued ATM cards are "Check Cards" (or Debit cards). They work like a credit card, only it's on money you have, no money you wish you had. Not sure if the OP meant the record created by using your Debit card at the grocery store, pharmacy, gas station, movie theatre, etc. That's just how I interpreted his comment. But yes, you are right. Unless the banks keep track of the serial numbers of the cash they issue to your card, and then do some further tracking of when the money reappears, then they have no way of knowing if you bought Mountain Dew with that $50 or if you visited your neighbor hood crack dealer.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[DerekLyons]

"At least here in the US virtually everyone does, via their ATM cards - whether they realize it or not."

How do you figure? They don't know what you do with the $$'s after you leave the ATM.

How do I figure? I can read and think. You on the other hand, cannot - because you failed to note that I didn't say 'cash from an ATM', I said 'ATM cards'.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[Calyth]

Apparently a lot of Hong Kongers are willing to do that.
The Octopus card (basically an overgrown RFID charge card), as I understand it, was originally intended for paying the various forms of public transportation available. As far as I know, there are 3+ bus systems, 2 subway systems, 1 tram on HK Island, 1 LRT system, 2 shuttle bus system, and taxis. The Octopus card made it possible to pay for public transporation - then they allowed merchants to use the technology to pay for stuff like food. See more at Wikipedia
The system isn't a complete cash replacement, but it's pretty hard for you to catch an average Honger without one.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[cayenne8]

"How do I figure? I can read and think. You on the other hand, cannot - because you failed to note that I didn't say 'cash from an ATM', I said 'ATM cards'."

Well, not sure how you read that...my ATM card is only good for getting cash out of a machine, so that was my first thought....how would they trace that?

How else do you use an ATM card?

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[AnyoneEB]

Maybe they have GPS chips on them broadcasting your location. ;)

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[juancnuno]

I'm a big advocate of the cashless society. And I've had arguments over that exact point. I firmly believe it's possible to set up a cashless system and allow for anonymous transactions.

Go to the cash card store, use your credit card to buy a $500 cash card, and use that to buy things you'd rather not have anyone else know about. All the cash card needs to do is keep track of how much it's worth. Yes, your credit card statement will have the $500 record, but it won't be itemized.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[Anonymous Coward]

Most ATM cards are also debit cards.

Re:There will always be some form of cash

[oakgrove]

Yeah, that'd work great right up until "someone who cares" cross references the transactions made with the cash card you bought with your credit card. There has to be a central way to differentiate between different cash cards and the cash card also has to have a central database to keep track of how much money is on it otherwise people would be cloning the cards and the whole system would go to hell in like a day.

Loss of privacy

[misleb]

Talk about opportunities for loss of privacy. In a truely cashless society, there would be no way to have private transactions. Everything would be accounted for. Maybe it is one of those things where if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about, but still. I'd like to keep the option of paying my dealer^H^H^H^H^Hbookie^H^H^H^H^Hfriend without some kind of electronic trail.

-matthew

Re:Loss of privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually this might even turn out to be a good thing (tm).
At the least no more tax escaping.
Or am i just a bit naive?

Re:Loss of privacy

[mapkinase]

That was exactly my first impression from this post.

Re:Loss of privacy

[wfberg]

In a truely cashless society, there would be no way to have private transactions.

Except for digicash. (Sadly, the company folded.. No government or corporation really stands to benefit from secure anonymous electronic cash, just private citizens/consumers.

Re:Loss of privacy

[pikine]

This would only become a problem when they start banning cash transactions. Maybe somebody cried wolf when credit cards are introduced, but most people are okay with it.

Furthermore, if you will, your dollar bills have unique serial numbers attached to it, so whoever spends the dollar bill can be traced. If you want to be paranoid, you could use gold transactions. However, gold can be traced by its mineral content to the mine. Depending on your purpose, this may still be a problem.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Xiroth]

This would definitely create a niche for banks which specialise in short-lifespan Swiss-style anonymous accounts that are easy to create and allow easy transfer of control (by giving a card or something). Unfortunately that anonymity could be legislated out of existance by government regulation for security purposes, so you'd need the banks to be in nations with a good track record of allowing privacy.

Re:Loss of privacy

[no reason to be here]

I would say very naive. most tax-evasion is done by the extremely wealthy and by mega-corporations, who fully disclose all their holdings, then avoid paying taxes on as much of it as possible through completely legal tax loopholes that their lobbyist bought for them.

Re:Loss of privacy

[TheRaven64]

Do you actually use cash in this day and age? About the only time I use cash is when I am buying a sandwich or a coffee at lunch time, or when I am getting a drink in a pub and cards charge too much per transaction for it to be available (why credit cards have a minimum commission I will never understand. It surely can't cost them much to move a small number from one location to another, and those 50p transactions add up to large numbers very quickly).

For private payments I always use direct bank transfers; that way I have a record that I've already paid, and it's less effort since I can do it anywhere I have an Internet connection, while cash requires me to find a cash machine.

Re:Loss of privacy

[kfg]

your dollar bills have unique serial numbers attached to it, so whoever spends the dollar bill can be traced.

I am a street performer. I live by the dollar bill. The dollar bills can be traced from bank to bank, but there is no way to trace the route from bank to bank through my pocket (and those dollar bills have been legally defined by the Supremes as gifts and donations).

And I like it that way.

KFG

Re:Loss of privacy

[a_nonamiss]

Dude, you're a little paranoid.

Besides, they can already read my thoughts from space, so it really doesn't matter what can and cannot be traced. Now where's my tinfoil hat...

Re:Loss of privacy

[voice_of_all_reason]

You sir, are under the mistaken impression that if tax fraud were eliminated today any of the extra money would make its way to the People

Re:Loss of privacy

[Kuvter]

You could always trade your dealer in other things that aren't cash, and then you're still not being traced.

Re:Loss of privacy

[spxero]

AFAIK, the minimums aren't imposed by the credit card companies, but by the establishments. The bar has to pay the credit card company a price per transaction for each transaction. So if they're paying $.50 to run your card, they want to make sure that you're gonna do a fair amount of business with them and at the same time cut their costs to the credit card company. But that's just from memory- no link, no proof.

Re:Loss of privacy

[voice_of_all_reason]

You are the type of person I have the resist the urge to stab in the back of the head with a spoon every time I'm trying to get my lunch and everyone ahead of me is taking 2-3 minutes apiece for credit card verification to buy a bag of cheetos.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of performing do you do?

Re:Loss of privacy

[LordOfTheNoobs]

why credit cards have a minimum commission I will never understand

... those 50p transactions add up to large numbers very quickly

I believe you've answered your own question. There's no market for stopping the practice either as if anyone were to try to capture market share by attacking minimum fees, everyone would drop them, and the new company would be crushed anyway. So there's no point in starting a company to get rid of the process, and none of the providers want to stop lining their profits. Hence, status quo.

Re:Loss of privacy

[LordNimon]

Do you actually use cash in this day and age?

All the time. My minimum for credit card purchases is $20, and I never write checks unless I have to.

Re:Loss of privacy

[peterpi]

I've taken to using cash for everything again (or cheques for things you post). It's a nice feeling; everything is simple again. There's no signing, no PIN-ing, no getting your card confused with your fellow diners' at the restaurant.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Valdrax]

I use cash everywhere I can to avoid identity theft and profiling. Every place you leave a receipt with your credit card number on it is an opportunity for someone to steal money from you.

I also am adverse to data mining. I hate push advertising and don't want to be bothered by people who think that I might purchase some crap I don't want based on something else I purchased.

All in all, using cash is about freedom and security to me, and I think it's worth the inconvenience.

Re:Loss of privacy

[geoffspear]

Sure they can. The video cameras taping everything you do pick up the serial numbers as the bills are being handed to you. However, the technology isn't perfect; I find that the glare coming off a well-constructed tin-foil hat creates lens flares on the cameras that can obfuscate the serial numbers.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Ahnteis]

Where do you shop that a credit/debit card takes 2+ minutes?

I live in a fairly small town and it takes about 10 seconds. Much faster then waiting for you to find those last 3 pennies.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

So let me get this straight?

You're a street performing, bike riding, astronaut, cowboy, super secret agent, slashdotter, FAG!!!

How do you do that? hahah

(Don't take FAG!!! personally, its a signature post)

Re:Loss of privacy

[apathy maybe]

I use cash for as many things as possible. If I buy something big, I get cash out of the ATM, then buy it. I keep recepts. That way I can see what I buy. I don't do things that are 'wrong', but why make it easy for Big Brother?

Re:Loss of privacy

[mspohr]

Actually, the IRS says that the greatest loss to tax evasion is from small businesses (restaurants, beauty salons, etc.) that are paid in cash. These people have lots of opportunity to pocket cash and not report it. A cashless environment would track every transaction and greatly improve tax reporting and collection.

Re:Loss of privacy

[kfg]

"Folk" music. Right now I'm concentrating on Irish fiddle, whistle and flute, with a little Old Timey and uke songs thrown in for spice, because it's easy to tour by bicycle that way. I like to bicycle.

If you ever see a guy standing by a bicycle and playing Irish fiddle while dressed in traditional Irish clothing (leine and braht), that's likely me. I don't think there are too many of us like that out there.

When I go by tour bus I'll throw in guitar and banjo, and maybe even a bit of piano now and then. Welcome to the digital instrument age. I also dress more "normal" then (if you call a black trench coat or duster "normal").

KFG

Re:Loss of privacy

[kfg]

You're a street performing, bike riding, astronaut, cowboy, super secret agent, slashdotter, FAG!!!

I'm not an astronaut, I'm a rocket scientist. There's a difference. And you left out luthier. I make some of my own instruments. And clothes. Oh, and bicycles . . .and

Among the things I am. . .

Wait, let me come in again.

How do you do that?

By not wasting my life sitting in some fucking cubicle. I do things.

KFG

Re:Loss of privacy

[linvir]

But by dimming the metal used to create the hats, you reduce this effect. It only takes a small reduction in shine to make the numbers visible again. Suspiciously, just before Iraq, the Bush administration spent a couple of billion dollars on nickel, which was then shared around the payload of the US' missile array.

The obvious reason is that the nickel impurity will contaminate Iraq's less well-known secondary export - tin. Each explosion spreads a little more nickel underground, reducing the shine of the eventual tin foil hats to be made from the metal there. Coincidence? I think not!

Re:Loss of privacy

[HaloZero]

2-3 minutes per transaction? Do you live in a place where you have to walk fifteen miles to use a phone? If you look out the window, are there farms on three sides of whereever you're sitting?

Cash barely touches my hands anymore. I work four days out of the week. My paycheck is automagically deposited in my bank account every friday morning at about four AM. They even split it among my checking and savings nicely. I buy lunch with my plastic. We visit a variety of establishments in various forms of (dis)modernization, and never have I had to wait more than twenty seconds for a process to complete. Every other friday, when I go to get gas, I pay with my card. In and out verified-transacted-deducted-paid in under half a minute. The few times I go to McDonalds (they have this neat 24 hour drive thru thing, great for all-nighters), my card is verified and my tab is paid before I've got it out of the reader.

Re:Loss of privacy

[webwidejosh]

In the US companies are not allowed to charge minimum fees. It is a rule imposed by the credit card merchant agreement, although most people don't know it. Is it the same elsewhere?

Re:Loss of privacy

[quarterbrain]

It can actually save you a lot of grief to pay with/carry cash. I've experienced on at least a handful of occasions where if the only form of payment you had was a card you were SOL. For example, once at a rural gas station after I had pumped my gas I discovered that the connection was down for whatever reason. They didn't have a backup carbon paper swiper either, the poor souls who only had a card were left to work out payment while I put down my cash and went on my merry way.

Another less inconvenient example, I was at the grocery store and for some reason my bank wasn't taking transactions. We tried my cards and my wifes cards before we gave up and left.

My point is that while the majority of times everything will be up, and everything will be running, there are those times where we must fall back on what works without power and wires. Those times are much less painful if you are prepared.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Lord_Dweomer]

You seem to be missing the point. The point is not how often you use cash...the point is that for the most part it is an anonymous payment system. A direct transfer is not.

Re:Loss of privacy

[voice_of_all_reason]

It's downtown new york city. The pharmacy and restauraunts in the lobby take that long, the company cafeteria is a little better (credit cards, no employee debit deal). I usually just find the nearest indian or chinese hole-in-the-wall where they still accept beads and trinkets. A lot quicker, even with the extra walking.

Re:Loss of privacy

[kfg]

The video cameras taping everything you do pick up the serial numbers as the bills are being handed to you.

I fool them, I spray paint the bills flat black.

But yes, they are in the process of installing several hundred surviellence video cameras in areas of Manhatten which I am known to frequent.

KFG

Re:Loss of privacy

[HaloZero]

There will come a day, I'm sure, where we all will be trading in beads and trinkets again.

Probably won't get the kind of deals we did way back when Manhattan was green and leafy, though.

Re:Loss of privacy

[ChristTrekker]

Absolutely. My wife and I went back to the good ol' envelope system to keep us on our budget. Every week we withdraw an allotment of cash. We write checks to pay bills. Debit scares me. Credit may not be evil, but I'd rather avoid it just the same.

Re:Loss of privacy

[mrbooze]

The amount of time it takes me to process an atm/credit transaction is easily still much faster than the time it takes the average cashier to count out change.

Re:Loss of privacy

[digitallife]

But thats 'illegal' tax evasion... of course the IRS isn't going to acknowledge legal loopholes as evasion.

Re:Loss of privacy

[OldManAndTheC]

Tax evasion is hiding income, lying on your tax forms, and otherwise cheating by illegal means. Tax avoidance is using legal means to avoid taxes, like tax shelters, transfer prices, profit laundering and other tactics used by the mega-rich and large corporations. The impact of tax avoidance is greater than that of tax evasion, because tax avoiders have more money and better accountants and lawyers.

This report has an excellent discussion of legal tax avoidance schemes by the rich and their impact on society.

Re:Loss of privacy

[zCyl]

Talk about opportunities for loss of privacy. In a truely cashless society, there would be no way to have private transactions. Everything would be accounted for.

All you would need is a mechanism for buying a disposable and untraceable temporary debit card. If your bank has a pile of $100 debit cards with no name associated, and they can hand you one without them swiping the number of which one was pulled out of the box, then you would have privacy in a cashless society. All that would be necessary would be for this to be legal and supported by the major transaction companies or organizations.

Unfortunately, it's hard without a simplified movie to get citizens/consumers to stop and think about the impact privacy or the lack of privacy has on their lives, and without a strong demand, privacy does not benefit corporations, and thus, there is none.

Re:Loss of privacy

[vertinox]

Talk about opportunities for loss of privacy. In a truely cashless society, there would be no way to have private transactions.

Huh? What? If you are that concerned about invasion of privacy, you could always barter.

People do it all the time. Swaping dvds, hard ward bits and peices, pokemon cards, and lord knows what else...

Re:Loss of privacy

[Valdrax]

Credit may not be evil, but I'd rather avoid it just the same.

Fear of debt is the beginning of financial wisdom.

Or, as the bard said:
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
-- Polonius to Laertes, Hamlet

Re:Loss of privacy

[vasqzr]

A lot of bars put those ATM kiosks in, instead of taking credit cards. They make $2.00 for the transaction, and you can only take out $40 at a time. I'm sure the bar owners make a decent chunk of change off those things.

Re:Loss of privacy

[cayenne8]

"Actually this might even turn out to be a good thing (tm). At the least no more tax escaping."

Well, it certainly might help dry up the illegal immigrant problem we have in the US. Most of them get paid so little, and in cash under the table so that it is never taxed. Hell, I could take a lot less in pay if "I" didn't have to pay so much into FICA, Medicare, Federal and State taxes....

But, I'm not ready for such an intrusion into personal privacy...another database entry to track EVERYTHING I own...no sir...I'll pass.

Re:Loss of privacy

[cayenne8]

"But yes, they are in the process of installing several hundred surviellence video cameras in areas of Manhatten which I am known to frequent..."

Hmm...what we need to do, is have someone invent a wearable laser device that can sense, and shoot and 'blind' each of these cameras so you aren't recorded...you'd just be a blank 'hole' in in the scene of the video...

Re:Loss of privacy

[nappingcracker]

well, you could always find out what your friend wanted to buy with the cash, buy it, and exchange the purchased good. or buy items that have trade value (jewels, food stamps, phone cards, etc. whatever commodity had street value). This is how the black markets will get around cashless societies, they will create a form of cash, a new currency, be it cigarrettes, victory gin rations, etc.

the only way to regulate this is to have all items tied to the individual, and disallow possession of other persons items without a properly logged gift transaction.

dark times ahead. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,comma

Re:Loss of privacy

[spxero]

I imagine the conversation went something like this:
Gov't: Mr. BarOwner, you aren't allowed to set minimum charges for your customers.
Mr. BarOwner: Ok, but can the credit card company?
Gov't: Sure, no problem.
Mr. BarOwner: Mr. Credit, you're not going to make me charge a minimum to my customers, are you? (Please oh please)
Mr. Credit: Yes. I demand that your customers spend at least $40 for each transaction.
Mr. BarOwner: Thank you! (And I didn't have to break the law!)

Re:Loss of privacy

[slashname3]

A true cashless society can not exist as long as politicians are around. How else are politicians going to get paid? They can not allow a paper trail back to them from the various lobby groups that routinely buy/sell/trade politicians.

Re:Loss of privacy

[kfg]

...you'd just be a blank 'hole' in in the scene of the video...

Oh, yeah, now that would be inconspicuous!

Professionally I find the best course is to stand way out and let the cops get used to you as just another harmless eccentric, which, as it happens, is also what you want to do to make money as a street performer.

And, as it happens, I'm just another harmless eccentric, so that works out ok.

KFG

Re:Loss of privacy

[webwidejosh]

Actually, its the credit card company that gets the fees, so they want to make sure they can make money on $2 transactions just as they do for $40 transaction. Therefore the conversation is more like:

Mr. BarOwner: Sorry, we have a $2 minimum.
Mr. Customer: Uh... No you can't do that.
Mr. BarOwner: Yeah we can.
Mr. Customer: [Calls the credit card company]
Mr. Credit: If you want to make any money from credit card transactions you won't charge ANY fees. We charge fees. You either accept credit cards or you don't.
Mr. BarOwner: Oh, sorry... No minimum for you.
Mr. Customer Continues to frequent the establishment, spending hundreds over the year. Mr. BarOwner continues to make thousands on credit card transactions despite fees. Mr. Credit continues to make millions because they know there are plenty of customers who will always pay by credit card.

It's not a law. Its a contractual agreement between credit card companies, processors, and merchants. Now, I do believe that it is a law that you can't charge a fee to process credit cards. Exempt is gas stations and such who have two different prices, a loophole I guess, and the IRS who *is* allowed to charge a convenience fee.

Re:Loss of privacy

[SenorCitizen]

Do you actually use cash in this day and age?

All the time. My minimum for credit card purchases is $20, and I never write checks unless I have to.

A better question would be - you write cheques? You *have* cheques? What the hell for?

I remember my dad used to use cheques in the 80's, and he was considered old-fashioned.

Re:Loss of privacy

[CastrTroy]

I don't know whether you're trying to be funny, but most businesses I know of think the opposite. Tim Hortons for example, only accepts cash. Because it takes too long to process debit/credit transactions. Other coffee houses have their own cash cards where you swipe it and the money is taken instantly, no waiting around the for the bank to respond, or having to type in PIN numbers or signing a piece of paper. There's still a lot of fast food places that don't accept debit because it simply takes too long to process.

Re:Loss of privacy

[mattkinabrewmindspri]

Using credit cards doesn't have to mean going into debt. If you are responsible, if you pay off your credit card at the end of every month, and if you have the right card, you can come out ahead.

For example, Citibank has a card which gives 5% back on groceries, gas, and prescriptions, and 1% back on everything else, which comes out to a fair amount of money you get back. You don't get money back if you stick to cash or checks.

The key is to find a good credit card and use it responsibly.

Re:Loss of privacy

[ArsenneLupin]

Pointless, as "tin" foil is actually alumin(i)um foil nowadays...

Re:Loss of privacy

[soliptic]

Not necessarily!

In London, there is talk about using the Oyster card for low-calue cashless transactions, in station newsagents, tobacconist, coffee shops, etc. (See this newspaper story.)

You can get a prepay oyster card by paying cash, and top it up with money paying cash. Completely anonymously.

If you got really paranoid you could swap your prepay card with another person... several times... between a huge group of people...

Obviously there's still potential for "join the dots" privacy invasion such as matching the bank note numbers used to top up the card to your bank account you withdrew them from, or matching cctv footage of you topping the card up, but that's nothing that couldn't really happen anyway.

I'd say that's basically just as anonymous as cash.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Thunderstruck]

I get the impression you don't like the "mega rich" and "large corporations." What'd they ever do to you?

You don't have to be "mega-rich" or a "large corporation" to reduce your tax bill. Most of the tax-reducing rules in the Code were put there by Congress to ENCOURAGE certain types of behavior, like long term investing. If you don't want to hire a lawyer, you just have to be patient enough to RTFM (or in this case, the tax code). The same rules apply to everyone.

Re:Loss of privacy

[blahplusplus]

"Do you actually use cash in this day and age?"

Yes, one word: Transaction fees. Many banks are starting to nickle and dime you on you debit, credit card, and other "plastic" or "cashless" methods under the guise you are "paying for the convenience". For some people making withdrawal in cash saves them a hell of a lot of money over the long term, believe me. Not only that, when you're poor many banks right now are robbing people blind by setting up intermediaries and double charging for money transfers (i.e. RBC for example. It's digusting, right now many banks are getting away with screwing people.

Re:Loss of privacy

[misleb]

The government really does watch transactions for "suspicious" activity. For example, I read about a couple in Texas who got a visit from the Dept. of Homeland Security because they paid off their credit card too quickly. They sent in a check for like $6,000. Credit card companies are obligated to report such unusual activity to the government. Now what if every transaction was monitored? In a state of even higher elevated government paranoia, you can imagine a lot more innocent people getting visits from the "Men in Black," so to speak.

-matthew

Re:Loss of privacy

[misleb]

I use cash all the time. Besides the simplicity, it serves as a nice "control" for my spending. If I notice myself goign to the ATM too often, I am probably spending more money than I should. The credit card serves as a backup for the cash.

-matthew

Re:Loss of privacy

[TheRaven64]

I don't really understand, but then whenever I interact with the US banking system I am amazed at how primitive it is.

In the UK, there are no fees for using a debit card, or for electronic money transfers. If my bank introduced such fees, I would switch banks. Interesting fact:

If you close an account at most UK banks, the branch manager has to explain to the regional manager exactly why they lost a customer.

Interesting fact two:

People in the UK are more likely to get a divorce than change banks. This means that, if a bank loses a customer, then they are going to find it very, very difficult to replace that customer.

Re:Loss of privacy

[pikine]

I guess the government is doing all it can do to create jobs for some people. When those "man in black" visits become more often, I won't be surprised to see books and training courses that teach you how to deal with them.

Re:Loss of privacy

[misleb]

The key is to not have a net debt. Sure, use the credit card to make some money off the banks if you can get such a deal, but also keep a nice buffer of liquid assets.

I only use credit cards to build up my credit score. I put just a few small things here and there on the card and pay it off just to ahve something to show, but all the real spending comes out of a checking account. And my car is paid off months ahead. So if something bad happens, such as unemployment, I don't have to worry about credit card debt OR a car payment. I actually have enough cash to pay off my car if I really wanted to, but I keep the "debt" around, again, for the credit score.

-matthew

Re:Loss of privacy

[misleb]

YOu think they are doing it to "create jobs?" Are you joking?

Re:Loss of privacy

[Not-a-Neg]

My automobile insurance company only accepts checks(Sterling Casualty Ins. Co.). I recently got a credit card at Staples, and they only accept checks as well. Staples does have some kind of express payment phone number, but they charge $14.95 for the convenience.

Re:Loss of privacy

[OldManAndTheC]

I get the impression you don't like the "mega rich" and "large corporations." What'd they ever do to you?

It's not so much what they've done to me as what they've done to the country as a whole, i.e. cheated, connived and slimed their way out of paying their fair share into government coffers. And they run no risk of going to jail, since their methods are completely legal, according to the laws that their cronies in Congress slipped through at 11:00 PM on a Friday to avoid the news cycle.

Is that enough dislike for you?

Most of the tax-reducing rules in the Code were put there by Congress to ENCOURAGE certain types of behavior

So? The tax avoidance schemes of the wealthy rely on loopholes in the tax code. No doubt they snicker at the measly crumbs of tax relief that are parsimoniously dropped at the feet of the middle and working class taxpayers.

If you don't want to hire a lawyer, you just have to be patient enough to RTFM (or in this case, the tax code). The same rules apply to everyone.

Here's a fun quote about the tax code:

According to the US Government Printing Office, it's 13,458 pages in total. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress--available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845.

Are you seriously suggesting that a typical working person can devote time to reading the tax code?? Rich people certainly don't - they hire people to read it for them.

The tax avoidance options for any person who relies on wages for income are strictly limited. Sure there are IRA's, Medical Savings Accounts, etc., but they are nothing compared to the tricks of people with real money.

The same rules apply to everyone.

True enough. I'm reminded of the following quote:

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Re:Loss of privacy

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I pretty much never use cash. If I go to a place for lunch that doesn't take EFTPOS or CC, I simply go somewhere else. However, I keep a bit on me for emergencies.

Re:Loss of privacy

[vogelgesang]

You know, I think he might be.

Re:Loss of privacy

[koreaman]

Aluminum foil hats are not a proper substitute for tin ones. You need real tin foil for it to block mind-rays, as a previous slashdot article pointed out.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Rixel]

I think I just heard RMS' head explode.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Thunderstruck]

Are you seriously suggesting that a typical working person can devote time to reading the tax code?? Rich people certainly don't - they hire people to read it for them.

I seriously AM suggesting that a typical working person read the tax code, if he wishes to take full advantage of it. Alternatively, there are a number of good books on tax and tax planning out there that can greatly aid the novice in examining federal tax law. Indeed, having mastery of the tax code will almost guarantee that a person will not remain poor. As you say, rich people hire people to do that. As in all things, the surest way to better yourself is through education.

Sure there are IRA's, Medical Savings Accounts, etc., but they are nothing compared to the tricks of people with real money.

I'd love for you to share some of these tricks. Outside of estate plans, I've never really seen any. Or perhaps are you only upset with the "rich" people who inherited that wealth? The rest of them had to earn it somehow.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Anatole France does a wonderful job of pointing out an unfortunate fact of life. He does not, however, propose a solution, does he? I am reminded of an observation from a tax law scholar: The tax law can be simple, or it can be fair, but it cannot be both.

Re:Loss of privacy

[OldManAndTheC]

As in all things, the surest way to better yourself is through education.

I don't disagree with that. And I will agree that there are ways for the average person to improve his tax situation. My point was that the reduction in tax liability is very small compared to what can be accomplished by someone with a professional accountant, lawyers and lobbyists.

I'd love for you to share some of these tricks. Outside of estate plans, I've never really seen any. Or perhaps are you only upset with the "rich" people who inherited that wealth? The rest of them had to earn it somehow.

I have no problem with rich people who earned their money. Inheritances do trouble me, but I can accept them (certainly if they were my kids I would want to pass on my wealth). What bugs me is when people take the attitude that they shouldn't have to pay taxes.

A friend of mine likes to travel frequently, and because he accumulates frequent flyer miles he often upgrades and flies business class. Recently he sat next to a guy who was flying down to South America to see his wife, a trip he takes twice a month. He was a retired business owner who had sold two businesses after making them profitable. The two started chatting, and my friend, who makes about $90K annually in pre-tax wages, bemoaned how much of his salary was eaten up by taxes.

"Oh.." said the businessman, "...you pay taxes?" He proceeded to tell my friend that he cleared $25K each month from his various business interests and investments, and paid no tax. He was not ashamed of this - in fact he was rather proud.

Now I'm not against the man having wealth and enjoying it. He clearly had worked hard to build up his businesses, and deserved the fruits of his labor. But to think that he had no responsibility to the society that made his wealth possible is outrageous.

As to how it is done, I am no expert. Surely it is obvious though, that the tax system is tilted so that income from investments is favored over wages. The mere fact that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages is troubling enough. Corporations and wealthy individuals pay lots of money to accountants and lawyers to work the tax code. Take a look the link I posted earlier in this thread for some examples of how corporations shuffle money around in ways that have absolutely no legitimate purpose except to avoid taxes. The main theme seems to be: move your assets into corporations, move your corporations assets offshore.

Anatole France does a wonderful job of pointing out an unfortunate fact of life. He does not, however, propose a solution, does he? I am reminded of an observation from a tax law scholar: The tax law can be simple, or it can be fair, but it cannot be both.

I respectfully suggest that you missed the point of the quotation, which was to comment on your statement that "the same rules apply to everyone". The rules might very well be uniform and applied equally, but the situations of the people affected by the rules are very different. In the context of taxation, if there is a law giving favorable treatment to someone who owns a 100-unit apartment building, who can write off the value of the structure to "depreciation" despite the ever-increasing value of the property (true), said law means nothing to a waitress making minimum wage (and who does not own an apartment building), and whose meager opportunity to avoid taxes on her income from tips is precluded by the IRS assessing her for them without even knowing how much she made! (also true). Of course if the apartment owner has income from tips he will be assessed as well - it's only fair! This is no "fact of life", it is the result of a government policy steered by one class of people to favor themselves.

Anatole France did in fact propose a solution - he was a rabid communist. I certainly don't agree with that approach. And as to the tax law being complex, it's various twists and turns mainly come

Re:Loss of privacy

[dick pubes]

Do you actually use cash in this day and age? About the only time I use cash is when I am

You might want to read up on the fallacy of composition.

Re:Loss of privacy

[mgblst]

Must be in the UK, they love cheques over here. I hadn't seen a cheque for about 10 years before coming over here.

As to those people who don't use cash, I hate waiting behind you in the supermarket - especially the 3 items of less line. Can't even carry around £5. If they made it instantaneous, fine - but wasting any more time than is necessary really gets to me.

Re:Loss of privacy

[Any Web Loco]

You're American (I'm guessing given currency). you guys use cash a LOT. In the UK (where parent & I live) there's no real need...

Re:Loss of privacy

[Thunderstruck]

But to think that he had no responsibility to the society that made his wealth possible is outrageous.

Contrary to /. tradition, I'll have to agree with you on this point.

The mere fact that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages is troubling enough.

But here I cannot agree. The reason for lower rates on capital gains arises not from a desire to help the wealth, but to make the system fair. Consider this, if you make $20,000 per year in wages, you will be taxed each year at 15% At the end of five years, you will have paid $15,000 in taxes on the $100,000 you made.

If you own a parcel of land, and that land increases in value by $100,000 over five years, you still made $20,000 per year. When you sell it at the end of five years, without a capital gains rate you would be in a much higher tax bracket, probably around 30%, and pay $30,000 in taxes for the same money over the same period of time as the wager earner.

Now, can we distinguish between how much physical labor and time is required for income produced by flipping land versus income from wages? Of course we can, but then again we can also distinguish between different kinds of wages, investments, and everything else. How complicated do we want our tax code to be?

if there is a law giving favorable treatment to someone who owns a 100-unit apartment building, who can write off the value of the structure to "depreciation" despite the ever-increasing value of the property (true)

There is such a law, but while the value of land usually increases, the appartment building requires continuing maintenance to keep it operable. This is offset somewhat by depreciation, and perhaps more importantly, any depreciation taken also reduces the basis from which tax is taken when the property is sold. Normally, if you buy an appartment building for $100,000 and sell it for $100,000, you pay no income tax on the transaction. You made no money. If you buy an appartment building for $100,000, and depreciate it down to $0 over many years, and then you sell the property for $500,000, you will be taxed on that whole $500,000. The tax man will always get you in the end.

I respectfully suggest that you missed the point of the quotation

I didn't miss the point, I just couldn't think of anything really witty to say in response. Its a good quote.

Re:Loss of privacy

[jwdb]

Actually, it's quite possible to have digital anonymous transactions if you use a bit of crypto.

You start with an algorithm that can sign encrypted data and retains a valid signature after decryption (Can't name one, but they exist). You then make 100 messages with the text "This is $10" and a random serial number, encrypt them, and send them to the bank. The bank chooses 99, asks you for their keys, decrypts them and verifies it says $10 and not $1000. It signs the last one, sends it back to you, and you now have $10 that is not duplicatable (due to the serial), not tied to you (because the bank doesn't know the serial), and is signed by the bank (as the signature passed through the encryption).

Jw

Re:Loss of privacy

[OldManAndTheC]

Your discussion of capital gains is illuminating, I must admit I had not thought about it in that way. Point to you.

I disagree with your argument regarding depreciation. If I am reading the IRS publication correctly (and I could be wrong), depreciation only affects the original structure and any capital improvements, not repairs. And of course repairs are a deductible expense. Naturally any building owner will try to characterize any spending as an expense rather than an improvement. This issue was brought to my attention by a friend of mine who owns an apartment building. He and I used to have the same employer, but he married into money and now makes income from investments. He often talks about how the tax code works in his favor where his investments are concerned.

But these are minor points. What about tax shelters? offshore accounts? transfer pricing? Here's a tidbit from the link I mentioned:

More than half of world trade is within corporations, not between them. And half the world's trade goes through offshore centers, as corporations shift profits to where they can avoid taxes. Companies set up offshore "subsidiaries" that, on their books, perform functions that allow the firms to cut their taxes. The simplest ploy is the "sale" and "rental" back of a company's logo or other intangible assets. Or money stashed in tax havens is "loaned" back to the U.S. company, which then deducts interest payments on its tax returns.

That's where the real chicanery is taking place. And it's perfectly legal.

There was a great story about Enron and its tax avoidance strategy a few years back, unfortunately I can't remember where I saw it. Basically Enron's tax lawyers set up a multitude of partnerships, shell corporations and similar paper entities to hold assets. They prepared "letters of opinion" for the IRS declaring how these entities worked. The structure was so dense and complicated that the IRS simply gave up trying to figure out whether it was legal - they could not prove there was anything wrong because they could not devote the time to understanding it.

One last quote from the same document:

In a little reported but revealing (and honest) slip of the tongue, George W. Bush said in a campaign speech at the Northern Virginia Community College in Annandale last August, "On the subject of taxes, just remember when you talk about 'we're just going to run up the taxes on a certain number of people,' first of all, real rich people figure out how to dodge taxes, and the small business owners end up paying a lot of the burden of this taxation."

Truer words were never spoken!

The French Surrender Again!!

[Anonymous Coward]

what a shock. this time to plastic.

Re:The French Surrender Again!!

[OutlandishMacabre]

Redition! Redition! Redition!

Convenient and dangerous

[Toby The Economist]

...for now there will exist databases which will show exactly where you were, when and what you were doing.

The State will be able to access these databases when it feels compelled to do so.

We were afraid of the State, 1984-like, maintaining huge databases, monitoring us all.

Instead, we have private companies maintaining these databases and the State accesses them when it needs to.

Either way, we have sacrificed true freedom for convenience - and we have done so without ANY meaningful public discourse upon the matter.

There was in fact no choice made; this situation has simply come upon us, through market forces.

We - all of us, States, citizens, one and all - are not in control of the direction (I can't say decisions, because deliberate choice is not occuring) our society is taking.

This is deeply worrying and ultimate stems from television, which is responsible for the lack of meaningful public discourse in our society.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[joshier]

yes we fucking know already you nonce, everybody knows this. This is what happens, oh boo hoo hoo, you're not fucking helping the situation, you're just stating it for other geeks like yourself to come jackoff of the worries in some sick manner. If you're worried, then DO something about it, i don't fucking care if you're worried. I have my own worries, but what the fuck are you doing to improve the situation?.. you're basically shitting your pants and going online 24/7 to say a load of shit words to scare other people. Well i don't know about you, but i'm most productive when i fear nothing, therefore your words are of no use to anyone who want to improve the fucking situation. Just get real, don't post shit like this in every bit of news, because you sound like a pathetic twat. How about you go visit iraq, the american troops just love shooting random innocent people in the streets for fun, you think it is worrying now or will be?.. go fucking live there for a day and you tell me if this place is worrying or whats to come.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[Braino420]

Aw there it is! First mention of 1984 for this topic. Yay paranoia!

There is no Cabal

Maybe I'll create Braino's Law: As a Slashdot discussion grows longer, the probability of the mention of 1984 approaches one.

Do everyone a favor and: SHUT THE FUCK UP

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[SABME]

"We were afraid of the State, 1984-like, maintaining huge databases, monitoring us all.

"We - all of us, States, citizens, one and all - are not in control of the direction (I can't say decisions, because deliberate choice is not occuring) our society is taking."

I think a better analogy is Brave New World instead of 1984. We are creating a society where those in power are ensnaring us because of the innate human tendency to seek comfort and convenience.

We choose this state of affairs because it makes sense to our internal logic of getting the most return from the least effort.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[sfontain]

Instead, we have private companies maintaining these databases and the State accesses them when it needs to.

Either way, we have sacrificed true freedom for convenience - and we have done so without ANY meaningful public discourse upon the matter.

I'm not sure who "we" is here. Nobody is forcing you to carry credit cards. Don't want your credit transactions logged? Then use cash. Simple.

I'm slightly more worried about what could happen if somebody didn't log these transactions. There goes my entire statement history and the company's and government's ability to make things right if a financial mistake has been made.

And by the way. I, personally, enjoy my 5% cash back on gasoline, groceries, and drugstore purchases.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[linvir]

You have a real point there, in amongst all the swearing and irrational flaming. This guy is like a broken record (1, 2, 3). Even so, despite the fact that I read at -1 with score display turned off, I checked to see that you'd been modded down, and I wasn't disappointed with what I saw. Rants like don't go down well here.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[zCyl]

I'm slightly more worried about what could happen if somebody didn't log these transactions. There goes my entire statement history and the company's and government's ability to make things right if a financial mistake has been made.

But where is your ability to walk into a convenience store, plop down $100 in cash, and buy a temporary debit card with $100 which is not associated with your name? You can buy a phone card in this manner, but where can you buy an anonymous debit card?

And by the way. I, personally, enjoy my 5% cash back on gasoline, groceries, and drugstore purchases.

You think that cash back comes from nowhere? The prices of all those products have been forced upward to pay for that cash back, so you are not winning one cent here. Your enjoyment of this is enjoyment of a well-structured illusion.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[BraksDad]

and we have done so without ANY meaningful public discourse upon the matter.

There was in fact no choice made; this situation has simply come upon us, through market forces.

You make the choice and cast a vote with every transaction you register electronically.

Cash is an illusion also. It is much like stocks. It is only worth what someone will exchange for it. The difference from other commodities is that we all agreed (those that use it) to let the local government set the value relative to some mythical point in space. Meanwhile the market tries to figure out how to get more of them for less effort. The government could (and probably if technically feasible would) put GPS tracking devices in every coin.
Where would your transaction privacy be then?

I say, go plastic and save your hidden transactions for other bartering or more creative ways to transfer wealth.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

This is deeply worrying and ultimate stems from television, which is responsible for the lack of meaningful public discourse in our society.

It's not so much television as it is what's on television. i.e. soul sucking, brain rotting, lowest common denominator programming. It's only a matter of time before three syllable words become extinct on broadcasted media. But hey, that's evolution in action!

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[Toby The Economist]

I'm not like a broken record...broken record...broken record...

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[sfontain]

But where is your ability to walk into a convenience store, plop down $100 in cash, and buy a temporary debit card with $100 which is not associated with your name? You can buy a phone card in this manner, but where can you buy an anonymous debit card?

By definition, an anonymous debit card cannot exist; that's self-contradictory. Not that I care, since I'm not the one griping about how horrible credit transaction logging is, but you can walk into a store and purchase non-personalized American Express gift cards for yourself in denominations from $25 to $500. I suspect other institutions offer these as well.

You think that cash back comes from nowhere? The prices of all those products have been forced upward to pay for that cash back, so you are not winning one cent here. Your enjoyment of this is enjoyment of a well-structured illusion.

Except that there are hundreds of other cards that don't offer rewards and people are paying for them, and there are millions of people paying millions of dollars in interest on their balances. I'm quite happy to get in on a piece of that. The single most obvious problem with your reasoning is that the best-known credit institution don't charge 5% of the transaction price, and it's at least arguable that credit cards induce spending such that sellers' sale volume increases, which would help preclude sellers' prices from being "forced upward" (your words).

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[Fallingcow]

By definition, an anonymous debit card cannot exist; that's self-contradictory.

A semi-anonymous one could. Identified only by number, no name tied to it. Phone cards already work this way, no name, just a number.

The reason it'd only be semi-anonymous is that authorities could still track the use of a card by its number, but they'd have to know who's using it for that data to be useful. One non-trivial extra step for them.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[Anonymous Coward]

what the fuck? admins, ban this twat.

Re:Convenient and dangerous

[mrogers]

It's not so much television as it is what's on television.

I'm with McLuhan - the medium is the message. Television stifles debate because to watch television you must become silent, attentive and still. The content of the programs is almost irrelevant.

Why Cellphone?

[ZeroExistenZ]

I don't want to get a 700+ phonebill each month for my expenses, I would never consider my cellphone Provider as my banking service. (because they en effect become your "banking service" if you only use your cellphone)

Proton has been around for a decade in Belgium already with the same philosophy. It's very convenient, and you can almost use it everywhere and where I can't I use my Credit Card.

Re:Why Cellphone?

[SteveAstro]

Mobile costs in Europe are considerably lower than the US rates, from what I have been able to gather. Sure, the networks screw you for international roaming - but less than the US, but, for example, I get 360 minutes a month free to any network, fixed or mobile, for about 50 USD.

Steve

Re:Why Cellphone?

[the_Bionic_lemming]

U.S. Cellular gives 900 anytime minutes, no roaming regardless of network in the service area (three or four states) , unlimited nights and weekends from 7 pm on, unlimited incoming calls (not charged to your minutes), free mobile to mobile minutes (to other USC customers) for 66.00 US including all taxes.

Re:Why Cellphone?

[ZeroExistenZ]

I used to pay 0.25EUR/minute and 0.12EUR/SMS here in Belgium,
until I went to an "unlimited" plan where you pay a fixed 25EUR for "unlimited" communication within the same provider. You get about 30hours a week calltime and unlimited SMSes.

Since I've got my gf a subscription as well we're paying 700%-800% less each month.

But I still don't like the idea my cellphone provider just billing me for every transaction I do. I have the bank for that.

Re:Why Cellphone?

[SteveAstro]

Thats a damned good deal.

Steve

Re:Why Cellphone?

[the_Bionic_lemming]

got a free phone with it too.

Re:Why Cellphone?

[SteveAstro]

Yes, I got a Treo 650 for free.

Steve

Re:Why Cellphone?

[the_Bionic_lemming]

I got a kyocera soho

Don't need more than that - already have a pda and digital camera.

Re:Why Cellphone?

[recursiv]

I don't think you understand how to calculate precent reductions. Let me show you:

OA=Old Amount
NA=New Amount

Your savings, expressed as a percentage according to the commonly accepted definition is:

100 * (OA - NA) / OA

Assuming both amounts are positive, this percentage will be less than 100.

Cashless society is bad...

[__aaclcg7560]

What are the thieves are going to do if the unsuspecting tourists are cashlesss? Inspector Clouseau will have to find a new job! Maybe run for president to save the Republic from itself?!

Re:Cashless society is bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding right?

The theives will steal your phone, and buy things with your account.

Kind of like car alarms stopping car theft. Just kick the bumper a few times. Guy comes out to turn off the alarm for the third time at 3am, you club him and take the keys.

Technology stops one behavior, yet enables another. I suspect this isn't any different.

Re:Cashless society is bad...

[__aaclcg7560]

Kind of like car alarms stopping car theft. Just kick the bumper a few times. Guy comes out to turn off the alarm for the third time at 3am, you club him and take the keys.

One of my friends played a joke on this neighbor by triggering the car alarm with a couple of good kicks, the guy came running out naked, my friend slipped into the house and locked the front door, called the cops to report a naked man in the neighborhood, and then ran out the back door to hop over the fence. He wasn't busted but he was questioned most thoroughly by the police since he already had a reputation for outlandish pranks in the neighborhood. As for the neighbor, he was wearing shorts the next time his car alarm went off and he ran outside.

What about

[Anonymous Coward]

strip clubs? Where do you swipe your debit card?

Re:What about

[GweeDo]

ouch...

Re:What about

[Snarfangel]

strip clubs? Where do you swipe your debit card?

Mod parent +1 insightful. Most of the other posters completely ignored the problem of strippers stealing your credit cards.

Re:What about

[spxero]

you just have to buy "coupons", which the "dancer" will redeem later. yes, I got the joke, but Ron White's 'coupons' bit popped into my head.

Re:What about

[MyIS]

Between the buttcheeks?

Re:What about

[shroompicker]

Swipe your card, get paper tokens.

I was born and raised in Las Vegas. There's a reason why you change cash to chips: They look more playfull and people let 'em go faster.

I had a friend that went nuts at the ATM the first time he went to a strip club. Going to a machine to get money doesn't hold a guy back, heck it might even encourage some kind of primal hunt-stuff-for-the-woman behavior.

Re:What about

[tradiuz]

Most upscale strip joints just have you put your CC on file when you enter, and then total it up, and charge you at the end.

Re:What about

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a punch in the face before I found the right card swipe.

Re:What about

[anaesthetica]

Not only that, but how will we light our cigars? Plastic just doesn't burn the same way a Benjamin does.

Poker

[Metabolife]

This is great! Now that we can't use money in poker, we have to start betting other things >=D

Re:Poker

[Cheapy]

If you want to replace poker with Strip Poker, and continue playing with your old buds, go ahead.

I on the other hand...

Already cashless societies

[s0l3d4d]

200 people in a village in France test this "cashless society" - no cash itself, just pay with a mobile phone.

At least 250 million people in US, Europe, Asia, use widely credit cards, and don't need to use cash.

Probably giving a tip with a mobile phone is not essentially different from giving a tip with a credit card either...

Re:Already cashless societies

[Wudbaer]

While you are basically right I wouldn't call a city with a population of more than 100000 and being a district capital a village.

Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Spy der Mann]

Interesting irony. Debit and credit cards were used to stop burglars from taking your cash, but right now the electronic frauds are becoming popular so it's MUCH EASIER for someone to steal your identity (and then buy goods using your money) than to steal your cash.

Now suppose a natural disaster (earthquake, hurricane, who knows) took out the power lines. How will you buy the goods you need?

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[DirePickle]

Now suppose a natural disaster (earthquake, hurricane, who knows) took out the power lines. How will you buy the goods you need?

You are obviously new to this whole disaster thing. The solution is simple: With a brick and a mob!

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[powerlord]

Oddly enough, if the power is out, having cash may, or may not, help you.

I was in New York City during the blackout a few years ago. I had cash, on the other hand there wasn't much you could do with it.
Some restaurants were open, but most were closed (no workers, no lights, no ability to ring up registers).
The major stores (supermarkets and the like) were closed. No registers, no lights, no refridgeration.

Good luck finding a taxi ... the streets were crowded and the traffic lights were out as well, but I suppose you could go somewhere by taxi.

All in all, the only store I know of that was open and doing business was the local hardware store, and the only thing they were selling was batteries.

Face it, our society has already become so dependant on electricity that in a lot of cases, if the power is out, having money may not help, there might be bigger issues to worry about.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever seen a credit card imprint machine? That's right -- you can do offline transactions and post them later. In fact, this was the norm before fraud became rampant.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[bogado]

Now suppose a natural disaster (earthquake, hurricane, who knows) took out the power lines. How will you buy the goods you need?

You are obviously new to this whole disaster thing. The solution is simple: With a brick and a mob!

Meanwhile in the front cashier, "-- those will be one brick and a mod of 10 people. Thank you, and have a nice day".

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Annoyed broccoli]

My guess is if you live in an area that is so ravaged, trading goods won't be a priority for you. You will probably live in a shelter, and eat meals from the Red Cross... Unless you relocate to an area that hasn't been hurt that much, in which case you might be able to use your cashless device. If the devastation is caused by WWIII, even cash might be useless. At the end of the day, it's all about convenience. Debit and credit cards make it easier to steal my identity than stealing my cash, but frankly, I'd rather take that risk (Which is manageable with some common sense) than carrying with me hundreds of $$ in cash (Which can also be lost, as well as being stolen) The same argument against cash can be made. It's very easy for the government to start printing $100 bills, thereby diluting the value of each individual dollar. Yet we weigh that risk against the inconvenience of trading with gold (Imagine having to check for the purity of the change you get from the pop machine). That's the privilege we have living in developed countries. In some backwards economy, I'd rather be paid in anything (bread, coffee beans, sea shells) but their paper currencies.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now suppose a natural disaster (earthquake, hurricane, who knows) took out the power lines. How will you buy the goods you need?

You won't, because the stores will be closed. No power means no lights, no alarms, no cash registers (they've run on electricity for at least 50 years). Our societies run on electricity and come to a halt when it's gone.

We had two F-2 tornados tear through my town one night last month, and the entire town went dark (and Springfield just got some kind of award for being the most reliable electricity!).

Wandering through the incredible, totally unbelievable destruction (my neighborhood was worst hit) I had to wonder, why in the HELL are we afraid of Bin Laden? Compared to a couple of F-2s, Al Quaida is a toothless wimp. Bring it on, sissy. (But I digress off-topic...)

There were few shops open the next day, not only because of lack of power, but because of lack of transportation infrastructure -- hundred year old trees blocking major streets.

A few bars were open, but they weren't serving food or coffee as you need power for those. Candles lined up on the bar...

Some businesses have yet to open; they were blown away completely.

As to "How will you buy the goods you need?", my friend needed cat food and she's picky about what she feeds them. I went along for the ride. "Will I have to pay cash?" she asked, as the CC machines all need electricity these days.

The guy smiled and pulled out the old fashioned reader, the one that used carbon paper!

(MRC="thrives")

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[hswerdfe]

then might i suggest one of these.
http://www.cwslagleantiques.com/images/longarms_ca rbines/7189.jpg

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Tango42]

How many years ago? Supermarkets in the UK quite often have backup generators and will stay open during power cuts. Tills quite often have batteries to keep them going for a bit while the power is out - a reasonably long cut would drain them, though, I expect.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Maxmin]

Your post reads like a bit of an exaggeration. When it came to doing business in my neighborhood, the Lower East Side, business was good.

The bodegas sold and kept selling all goods they had until sold out (particularly beer :-), and were happy to keep the till by hand. Restaurants were open where they could serve without electricity - some lit with candles and ran their gas stoves (just about all restaurants in NYC run the kitchen off gas.)

In Tribeca, where I worked, all the bodegas I passed, walking home, were open and selling.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[powerlord]

2003. Most of the NorthEastern United States and the Eastern part of Canada went through a blackout that lasted ~1-3 days depending on where you were living.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Environme nt_and_Nature/Disasters/2003_Northeast_Blackout/

Do the supermarkets in London have backup generators?

I'd be surprised at either the level of planning or the lack of faith in the local power grid that implied (not saying they would be wrong, just surprised at the additude).

In the U.S. at least, the only places I know of that maintain backup generators are Utilities (telephone company), and Emergency Services (police, fire, Hospitals).

Though there was a lot of preasure on the grid, the telephone company was able to keep power up on the telephone lines. This only worked if you had a standard phone (no wireless, plug-it into an electrical outlet for service phones).

Otherwise, things preaty much just shut down. Proudly enough, even though there was concern over rioting (similar to the blackout in the 60's), there were no wide spread riots, and most reports were people trying to help each other. My favorite memory was ordinary citizens using road flares and acting as traffic officers so people could keep crossing streets and cars could move without danger, until real police arrived to handle the major intersections.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[powerlord]

Hehehe not a bad suggestion, but oddly enough, people were rather well mannered.

Shop keepers were handing out water bottles to commuters who had to walk home.

People volunteered to act as traffic officers at major intersections so cars and people could both flow toward "home" safely.

No rioting, but I remember an impromptu drum circle starting up about a block from Central Park along a busy thoroughfare. People stopped to listen, enjoyed some water, and then kept walking toward home.

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[powerlord]

There aren't many Bodegas by where I live, only two super markets. Unfortunately the nearest place to get food is a Dagastinos and I was between jobs when the blackout happened.

Oddly enough my wife and I had been having problems with our Fuse box the week before (we had lost power for two days due to a loose wire and had to have the landlord get an electrician in). The first thing that went through my mind when the lights died was "Not again". I was almost happy when I opened the door to the hall and realized it wasn't just me ... then I realized it was a bit more widespread. :)

Its good to hear most places ran "business as usual", its just not the part of the story I saw :)

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[mapkinase]

Then the (now forgotten) phrase of DotBomb times would be handy:

"Will code HTML for food".

Re:Yeah but what happens in case of a blackout?

[Tango42]

I don't know about big cities, but I've been in supermarkets in medium sized towns during powercuts.

I also remember being in a big powercut in Malaysia and the apartment building we were in had a generator to power the lights in the communal areas and the lifts - I think power cuts were quite common in KL, though. The airport also had generators - they were running almost completely uneffected.

It would seem it's not difficult to prepare, you just have to decide it's worth it.

It'll fail

[igb]

Just like Mondex failed. ian

Re:It'll fail

[doofusclam]

Just like Mondex failed.

Probably. I lived in Swindon (UK) when they were trialing it ~10 years ago and it was crap, though to be fair this was mainly down to the implementation. It took 20 seconds for it to take your money on the bus, as you can imagine with loads of passengers waiting it was a bit irritating.

I only ever used it in anger when Mackenzies Bar were offering 1/2 price drinks if you paid with Mondex...

Re:It'll fail

[matt_wilts]

I live in Swindon too and decided not to get a card when it transpired that they were planning to charge for the use. Not a great amount, sure, but...

Hmm. Let me think? Charge me to spend my own money? I should coco.

Re:It'll fail

[fidelius]

I used to live in Guelph, Ontario, the other Mondex test city. We had mondex in the parking meters, mondex on the buses, in the coffee shops, the pay phones, pretty much everwhere. Lots of people even got the free Mondex phones that let you transfer money out of your bank account on to your card at home.That was probably the best feature of them. As I recall you could do the same at payphones. If you used the ATM to do it it cost you a $0.25 fee, which I thought was just ridiculous. Why would I pay extra to put my money on this little card thing?

The biggest problem was speed. It was MUCH faster to pay with cash. But at that time Interac payments were only just starting to take hold and I suspect that Mondex was faster than Interac because there was no waiting around for the customer to key in a PIN. Getting on the bus was excruciating, waiting for the mondex card of the guy at the front of the line to do its magic while you shivered out in the snow.

Beyond that it was hard to explain to people why this was better than cash or interac. Unlike Interac (or cell phone payment) if you lost your Mondex card you lost your money. You could also lock the mondex cards with a code, but if you forgot that then I believe your money was gone. Cell phone payments might work better if they're fast and there's no stored value on the phone (so if you lose it you can just call in and block any purchases).

Mondex did have these cool little reader devices that looked sort of like calculators. You put your card in it and it told you how much was stored on the card. At least one model let you transfer money from one card to another. Of course, if you want to give five bucks to your friend it's faster and easier to just give him a five dollar bill... I still have mine. It says that my card still has $2 on it and it that every one of my last ten transactions was at Tim Hortons (the ubiquitous Canadian coffee shop).

NO NOT CASHLESS!

[Gno]

I stay up at night thinking of theese things. I fear that one day my Grandma and her penny jar must go! If the public has no tangible money to steal then how will my uncle Vern make a living? If you cannot put bills on the table then how will I cheat at poker and win? THINK OF THEESE THINGS O CRUEL SOCIATY

Euros Merci

[digitaldc]

Great, now how is this guygoing to afford his lifestyle?

But will deodorant be available?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash...Cashless...it's all irrelevant. The real question is if this will help raise the demand for deodorant?

silly me

[nEoN nOoDlE]

When I read the article, I immediately thought that the town was going back to a bartering system.

Re:silly me

[pla]

When I read the article, I immediately thought that the town was going back to a bartering system.

They will - The first time the power goes out for any decent span and suddenly an entire town realizes with horror that they have no tokens of their economy with which to trade.


I'll stop using cash the day people lose that glint in their eyes on seeing a Krugerrand. Until then, even if "they" force me to make all my on-the-books purchases electronically, they'll see nothing more detailed about my buying patterns than that I like to stock up on precious metals once a month.

Panhandling

[maddash1946]

I wonder what this will do to the beggar population in that town. I've notice that I almost never carry cash anymore and as such I have no money to give to beggars.

Re:Panhandling

[danpsmith]

That's another bonus besides completely eliminating privacy, killing those pesky non-working homeless people off by eliminating the change they subsist on.

All fringe benefits for the hampster wheel posse.

Re:Panhandling

[JVert]

They will have to go hightech and bump up against you and swipe your cellhpone against their scanner for cash.

Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue the obligatory "Mark of the Beast" fire and brimstone.

Overheard in the French town of Caen...

[slcdb]

"Aw crap! My wallet's battery just died."

Re:Overheard in the French town of Caen...

[caluml]

I like your sig... :)

Wonder how this would be received in Germany

[Anonymous Coward]

It's interesting to see how different attitudes regarding the use of cash can vary between countries. Here in Germany the only thing I use a credit card for is buying stuff from die bahn and the rare order on amazon.de. Germans are the country that insisted on a 500 euro bill(though I have yet to see one). Meanwhile in Britain, while they aren't as wild about credit cards as Americans, a lot more places seem to accept plastic compared to Germany. What exactly causes the difference in attitudes towards cash?

Re:Wonder how this would be received in Germany

[Wudbaer]

I think it strongly depends. While not a lot of Germans use credit cards (and also the acceptance still sucks as businesses shy back of credit card fees) debit cards are wildly popular. You are right that if you tried to pay for a disposable razor in a Mom and Pop store using a credit card - as I was able to do already 10 years ago in the US without any trouble - they would set the dogs on you, but still plastic money is also widely popular around here at least for everything from 50 EUR onwards (and the acceptable limits are constantly becoming lower and lower).

The most common reason to enter a Mercedes dealership with a suitcase full of money has lost a lot of attractivity due to the recent laws against money laundering. ;-)

Re:Wonder how this would be received in Germany

[igb]

When I got myself in difficulty (not enough cash) in Germany in the late 80s, someone explained to me that it was a holdover from the Weimar hyper-inflation.

ian

Re:Wonder how this would be received in Germany

[Anonymous Coward]

FAGS???

Sounds like a 'good idea' but it's not

[erroneus]

The legal tender system was created in order to unify a medium of exchange for goods and services. The money moving businesses were an unfortunate growth from that invention. (Money moving such as savings, checking, loaning and related services) But if monetary value exists without portable and anonymous tokens, then you really have to TRUST the value managers and the systems it operates from. If a government (assuming the controlling entity is official government... if it's not, it soon will be) or a ranking official of a government decided someone was to be harmed for some reason, it would then be [more] trivial to strip a person of their assets and means of survival. Forget about cancelling credit/debit cards and freezing bank accounts, once they strip you of cash, there is no longer any way out.

That makes people EXTREMELY vulnerable to abuse by the system. (And if I hear "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you shouldn't be afraid" crap again, I'm going to throw a chair! "wrong" is always defined by whoever is in power and always a subjective notion. It's "wrong" to kill innocent people... unless your president orders it... hrm...)

The cashless system will work as nicely as expected, but the tests will not include the abuse that can and will happen.

Re:Sounds like a 'good idea' but it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

The legal tender system was created in order to unify a medium of exchange for goods and services. The money moving businesses were an unfortunate growth from that invention.

You got that exactly backwards. Money was invented as proof of lien, is still issued as such, and only in its standardization and volume did it become a unified medium of exchange.

If a government (assuming the controlling entity is official government... if it's not, it soon will be) or a ranking official of a government decided someone was to be harmed for some reason, it would then be [more] trivial to strip a person of their assets and means of survival. Forget about cancelling credit/debit cards and freezing bank accounts, once they strip you of cash, there is no longer any way out.

Sorry to hear about your paranoia issues. Well, once they come and take all your stuff, you can always grow vegetables in your garden and eat/sell them.

Re:Sounds like a 'good idea' but it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

But you have similar problems with cash as well. What makes the (dollar/yen/euro/pound/loonie) in your pocket worth anything really? The faith that the government(s) backing that currency up will
a) still be here tomorrow
b) still be relevant tomorrow
c) still accept that money as being worth something tomorrow

If any of these doesn't hold, then you just lost a whole bunch of money ie stored value. If a government started abusing the system like you described on a large enough level then people will pull out of that government and said government will find itself a lot less powerful and a lot less relevant. The dangers of the cashless society when it comes to government aren't any different than now, however when it comes to others you have a lot more to worry about. When you use cash the only people who can take said cash from you are close to you in meatspace but if everything is electronic than anyone in the world can try to get at your money.
In the end, any system is going to have a large element of trust, and that trust can and will be abused, but unless you have a machine to make everyone honest, it is the best system we have.

Re:Sounds like a 'good idea' but it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

When you can't pay your taxes, they'll take your house and your freedom.

In Hong Kong...

[simonjp]

...they already have this sort of idea and have done for a long time. Their travelcards (Octopus cards - very similar to london oyster technology - RFIDS) can be used as "cashless" cash - just wave it to buy stuff and the money you put on it would go down. Its effectively a prepay cashless system - you dont need to watch out for huge bills at the end.

Indeed, closer to home, my old school used to have "smartcards" for paying for lunch without the need to produce cash. Just prepay on it and then empty it...

I guess its an old idea, but being trialled in conjunction with other technologies on a larger scale.

Re:In Hong Kong...

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived in Hong Kong during their first few years of the Octopus system rollout, and I'd like to chime in that it was pretty sweet. I mean, you still needed small cash for street vendors, but the buses, the MTR (subway), ferries, and even some 7-11 stores---you could do all of that with the Octopus card.

The reason I like the system, even if it is RFID, is that it's debit. I would consider a credit-linked system using RFID to be stupid, since the possible damage of a hack is increased by several orders of magnitude.

Re:In Hong Kong...

[danpsmith]

Great idea, after all we should definitely be more like China.

Re:In Hong Kong...

[danpsmith]

edit: I'm a moron.

Re:In Hong Kong...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I can only agree that's so convenient to use for anything in HK.
Some kids actually collect several Octupus Cards as some kind of money storage if they want to put money aside. Takes up less space than tons of notes.

But now, stuck in Scottish Countryside since a year.... I just dream about going back to live in such convenience... No need to save all the small coins to get buses or others.

And... for tough weeks... I could at least go to -50$HK on the card ^^... try to do that with a wallet filled with 5p coins

Re:WTF? Many US soldiers died at Normandy

[uberjoe]

I bet a lot more french soldiers died in france then US ones. Just a guess though.

The last time a lot of cashless people in France

[Anonymous Coward]

...got together, a bunch of cars were torched. Hopefully, this experiment will go better.

So what...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is nothing new. Where I live, mobile phones have been used as payment for various services for years:

Not to be beaten up by a gang of thugs.
Not to be stabbed by a gang of thugs.
Not to be shot by a gang of thugs.
Not to be dragged behind a car driven by a gang of thugs.
Not to have one's head nailed to things by a gang of thugs.

But we've gone one better than the French, because in our payment model, you can use iPods, watches, and jewels as well as mobile phones to pay for the very same services. Now that's progress!

Re:So what...

[idonthack]

Not to have one's head nailed to things by a gang of thugs.

Well, when you transgress one of those unwritten laws, it's kind of hard to avoid that. They don't really want to nail your head to the floor but they have to. Maybe if you ask nicely they'll agree to just screwing your pelvis to a cake stand.

Re:So what...

[voice_of_all_reason]

Where the hell do you live? Biff Tannen's 1985?

Mod parent up

[GuloGulo]

He's a troll, but he's right.

Re:WTF? Many US soldiers died at Normandy

[Anonymous Coward]

Shot in the back running away no doubt

They tried that in Swindon, UK, years ago.

[Boss, Pointy Haired]

Didn't go down well at all.

http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/e-telegraph.04jul95. html

Re:WTF? Many US soldiers died at Normandy

[theolein]

Hey, if that's the way you feel, fucker, just dig 'em up and take 'em home. You can also shove 'em up your arse, if you feel like it. Sideways.

Do you use a credit card/checking/Debit card?

[technoextreme]

Instead, we have private companies maintaining these databases and the State accesses them when it needs to.

Either way, we have sacrificed true freedom for convenience - and we have done so without ANY meaningful public discourse upon the matter.

If so then this is a hypocritcal statement. All three of those record the transactions that you preform with them.

Re:Do you use a credit card/checking/Debit card?

[Anonymous Coward]

The right tool for the job...

I use the debit cards when I don't care, but not when I needed to buy my little sister a used car because she was graduating and moving out of state to a place where my mother couldn't drive her to class anymore, and my parents were too broke to buy one themselves.

But, oh, I'm not her father, so I can't just buy a car for her, I'd have to buy it for me, and then give it to her, with all the tax bullshit and general registration bureaucracy that entails.

So I withdrew $500 from the bank using my ATM card, and gave it to my sister and she bought an old used car for herself, without taxing my money over and over again like the government loves to do. I'm sure someone at the government probably put me into a list of drug suspects for withdrawing several hundred dollars at once, but what can you do about government bullshit?

Please pardon my stupidity...

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, if you will, your dollar bills have unique serial numbers attached to it, so whoever spends the dollar bill can be traced.

How, exactly, could this be accomplished? The teller doesn't keep a record of who got what bills, nor do the grocers, nor my barber, nor my bartenders.

Now, when they imbed RFID chips in all your money that would be easy to understand, but please enlighten me as to how serial numbers can be used to track you?

Taxation

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you go cashless there is a record of every transaction, and the ability to tax every transation automatically. You bum a dollar from your buddy - the government keeps a nickle.

Banks used to keep peoples gold and issue IOUs for it. They'd charge a transaction fee (interest) to get your gold out. People started trading in the IOUs to avoid the penalty of actually getting their gold to buy something. That's where cash came from - the IOUs. So why are we going back to a system where we have to pay the man at every transaction?

Re:Taxation

[gravesb]

I think debit cards with no id would be a good way to go. You could put it in an ATM, enter your PIN number, and transfer a certain amount to the card. Then you could swipe the card wherever you are, but since it has no ID, there isn't a record of your transaction. This gives you the convience of debit cars without the loss of privacy. Of course, you would lose all of the money on the card if you lost it, but in general, what you gain in privacy, you lose in security, so I don't think it would be too bad. That would be a true cashless experiment.

Re:Taxation

[Urusai]

Because "the man" makes the rules. Duh.

Re:Taxation

[Anonymous Coward]

I was once watching a religious show on TV. It was a local religious channel (IIRC 63 in Atlanta) and on there was a Black Precheacher who was going on about how the "man" and the "establishment" was holding "them" down. There's a lot of that still going on in America. Folks say the Mullahs are getting the Muslims to riot, but I also see some really similar things here the US of A.

And for anyone who says that the preacher is right, well, I have in my 20 years of working experience never seen or been a part of any program or anything to keep the Black man down or cheat him in anyway.

Re:Taxation

[Anonymous Coward]

So why are we going back to a system where we have to pay the man at every transaction?

Isn't that essentially the goal of free market capitalism?

So much for being egalitarian...

[Guppy06]

"By touching the mobile against the 'Flytag' logo at each of these locations, users can pay for services or receive information straight to their phone."

Cashless society for those that can afford cell phones!

Re:So much for being egalitarian...

[Fareq]

Question: How do you buy a phone?

Re:So much for being egalitarian...

[!equal]

Lose an ear.

Just think of how ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the card will smell afterwards!

Need a state-backed card

[mccalli]

I mostly welcome all of this, though with the odd privacy concern here and there. However, the one thing I have a problem with is that the card payment and mobile payments systems are privately owned.

In most countries, in fact in all that I can think of, the currency is controlled by the state. If I pay for something using a five pound note, I'm guaranteed that note is acceptable anywhere in the UK. Due to differing debit card systems, rates charged to retailers and just general availability, the same cannot be said of my debit or credit cards. Some places don't take some forms of debit card, others charge extra for using credit cards...it's a mess. A mostly-working one, but if cash is going to disappear then the remaining problems need sorting.

Personally, I would welcome a state-backed debit card. No rates chargeable to the retailer for accepting them, and if you want to operate as a retail operation or bank within that state then it is mandatory that you accept the card. Then control of this is out of private hands and into a publically accountable body. Yes, there are problems with giving the state this information but I believe there are more problems letting the only means of payment be controlled by competeting private institutes.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Need a state-backed card

[mobby_6kl]

>Personally, I would welcome a state-backed debit card.

That's just way too scary.

If government-approved cash goes away, nothing prevents you from using another currency, different debit cards, or even precious metals. Now if the government starts issuing its own card, it will very quickly gain a dominant position (no fees) and then you won't have much choice at all.

>[...] out of private hands and into a publically accountable body.

Ha ha, now I see you're joking and my post is pointless :)

Been and done

[jd]

I think it was Swindon, in the UK, that tried the Mondo cashless card over a decade ago. The card actually held the electronic cash, so that absolutely nothing went to or from any kind of central database. This had the massive advantage that it was extremely private. It had better privacy than cash, as there were no serial numbers or denominations involved. The cards used public key encryption and although I believe they never used long keys due to problems in generation, they were quite capable of handling keys equal to the strongest PGP/GnuPG can support today.

To me, this is the kind of electronic cash that should be the future. Total privacy, total anonymity, total freedom to use your own money as and how you like, absolute security against identity theft through reckless banks or merchants, hard limits to card misuse if stolen (and none of it attributable to you), relatively proof against electronic attacks such as keystroke monitors and viruses.

So why aren't these cards in widespread use? Merchants don't like extra card readers if no customers have the cards. Customers don't want cards they can't use. Neither like systems where most faults can be pinned on them and not the vendor. Banks hate systems that keep cash in the hands of consumers, as they make a lot of money speculating on the side (even in countries they're not strictly allowed to, they just do it overseas). Governments hate it because they can't track individuals and freezing accounts has less impact when you can carry a small fortune in your wallet.

The problem, then, is social and not technical. The French experiment uses inferior technology, for the purpose of satisfying some of the social requirements at the cost of placing all parties at greater risk.

(For some reason, humanity has all the attributes commonly associated with lemmings, when it comes to technology and risk. Given the choice of inferior products with greater risk, or superior products with little or no risk, societies always choose the inferior path.)

Re:Been and done

[Jtheletter]

Given the choice of inferior products with greater risk, or superior products with little or no risk, societies always choose the inferior path.

While your observation seems to be generally true it completely ignores the reason for this behavior, which usually somes down to cost & convenience. Society is not choosing the riskiest and most inferior path because that is somehow a Good Thing, it "chooses" these paths because the riskier/inferior option is often cheaper and/or more convenient. That is the problem. People in general do not understand how to do a risk analysis or long term cost analysis on their everyday choices. We want it now and for $10 less than that guy paid for it, regardless of whether that is the best choice in the long run.

This is the same reason many consumer products have woefully short functional lives, they are made with thin and cheap plastics and designed to take the minimum amount of abuse. You want a good quality product? Well, it will cost you more, pehaps twice as much as the Walmart version, but if you look at expected lifetimes and quality etc you'll see the higher quality product will last longer and eventually end up saving you money when it doesn't have to be replaced. The same goes for these new methods of payment, people want to be able to just carry their phone and not six credit cards, they want to be able to swipe the phone over a pad, not have to wait to sign or remember a pin, and they really don't care about what kind of privacy concerns this may raise because they got their instant gratification.

Looking ten years down the road and thinking about what it really means to give the government or a corporation a minutely detailed list of your every transaction is mroe effort than most people care to exert. Society is following the path of least resistance, sloth I suppose, and as the saying goes: Fast, Cheap, Good - pick any two!

Re:Been and done

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to admit that I don't know about Mondo, but I have personally seen how the german equivalent ("geldkarte", could be translated as "money card") works. Of course, that usually happens when it fails, and with only DM 5 (about US$ 2.50) ever charged on the card and three or four transactions in total, I encountered a parking ticket machine that made the chip completely unusable. I first complained to the bank that happened to operate the parking garage, and they just sent me to my bank, claiming that they themselves couldn't do anything, but that my bank could fix this. I was quite surperised to see that my bank operated a 'shadow account' for my "geldkarte" that was only indeirectly associated with my normal accounts. In this account all transactions that I had ever made with this card over the course of about 6 months were stored, including tests that had been cancelled immediately. Seeing that my card was actually broken, they just calculated the remaining 'value' that should have been left, closed the 'shadow account' and transferred the balance to my normal account.

In short, at least the german version doesn't give you too much privacy; the merchant gets the 'shadow account' number (and therefore, if merchants colluded, they could still construct a profile of what you buy where), and the bank gets to know everything about your purchases with the card.

Re:Been and done

[Anonymous Coward]

To me, this is the kind of electronic cash that should be the future. Total privacy, total anonymity, total freedom to use your own money as and how you like, absolute security against identity theft through reckless banks or merchants, hard limits to card misuse if stolen (and none of it attributable to you), relatively proof against electronic attacks such as keystroke monitors and viruses.

The French already do this. Everyone can use it and it's called a Moneo card.

Why is this experiment different then? Because the underlying technology is different (and I can't say inferior): "By placing an NFC (near field communication) chip near a reader, up to a distance of a centimetre or two away, data can be transmitted to and from the chip." bidirectional and contactless.

Re:Been and done

[Archibald Buttle]

The card used in the Swindon experiment, and many others around the world including New York IIRC, was called Mondex. It was primarily developed by the NatWest Bank in the UK, with HSBC joining the party later.

Mondex was a contact-based smart card system using ISO 7816 compliant cards. It was the only true stored value electronic purse card for quite some time and may still be so, the only one to allow direct card to card transfers of money. With essentially all other "electronic cash" cards you can only withdraw money from a bank, and pay money to a merchant - it's impossible to give a friend some money, whereas with Mondex this *is* possible. Most other electronic cash cards are essentially a souped up version of direct debit (pre-authorised) keeping a local on-card track of value stored in a shadow account at a bank.

Mondex ended up as part of Mastercard. The experimental roll-outs all finished several years ago.

Mondex' failure is essentially down to two factors. Firstly it required hardware and software to deal with the smart cards - this equipment inevitably costs money, and merchants were unwilling to shoulder the costs. The banks too were reluctant to pay for the costs. The other reason for failure is the transaction time - the fastest you could make a payment was about 10 seconds once a customer card was inserted into a card reader. This transaction speed, whilst it sounds OK, is unacceptable for paying for a bus ticket whilst boarding, for example.

This new scheme in France sounds very similar to Dexit, which people in Toronto may be familiar with. These type of schemes rely on terminals connected to central computers that track values in (shadow) accounts - the card itself stores no value, and has no record of its transactions. All the customer has is essentially an RFID tag, and transactions get confirmed by the customer placing their ID near a very short-range tag reader.

Like Poker Chips?

[Silver Sloth]

You never know, it might just catch on!

Budget System

[shroompicker]

One huge disadvantage of using debit or credit cards is loss of control of your finances. Dave Ramsey, is a radio guy trying to convert the whole world from the mortgage / three-car-payment / six-credit-card-payments way of life to living completely debt-free, what he calls financial peace. He likes to say money is 80% behavioral and 20% math, and I've strongly agreed with this even before I'd ever listened to his programs. One of the very first things he advocates in all of his books and courses is, get a budget, spend everying on paper on purpose at the beginning of the month, and pay cash for everything. When you set a realistic budget, then you're both comfortable with the money you're spending in that you don't feel like you're starving, and when the money runs out in your pocket, it's out, so you're in control. No more plasma screen TV's. My whole life, I've always cashed my paycheck or logged my direct-deposit paystub, then gone straight to the ATM to withdraw a healthy sum for the whole week. If I had cash in my pocket for something, I'd get it, if not, I wouldn't. This habit alone has kept me saving money every month, even though I've been a student most of the time from age 18 to 32.

I wouldn't want to just walk through the city and end up with a negative sum in my checking account at the end of the day. If I were to buy into this thing, I would need the ability to declare "wallets". I'd like to open my cell phone, see $132, oh, I have enough for a full tank of gas on Saturday and groceries for the last half of this week, so I can buy this $15 panini sammich. Then I go home and check my home wallet, pay the light, heat, water, garbage bills, and mortgage with that. Then comes my direct deposit, so I refill all my wallets, including the wife's redecorating wallet and my car parts and ammunition wallet.

Oops here goes a buck and another

[sundru]

Imagine walking into the town with a RFID payment card and not knowing where your money is being spent.

Walk First block - 2 bucks on toll without being aware of it.

Second block - 5 bucks Automatic withdrawl from a street band playing crappy music. Just bcos ur in range of their payment device.

Third block - 2 bucks Automated payment withdrawl to the bag lady on the sreet.

Oops missed a street - U screwed !! APply for overwithdrawal protection.

Re:Oops here goes a buck and another

[grimJester]

5 bucks Automatic withdrawl from a street band playing crappy music. Just bcos ur in range of their payment device.

We already have that...

Re:Oops here goes a buck and another

[Anonymous Coward]

Not our fault you burn crappy music to those CD's ;)

You've never tried living with cash only

[Silver Sloth]

Sure, you can do the small things but if you try to live without credit cards, let alone a bank account you'll find it tough. Does your ISP accept cash?

Re:You've never tried living with cash only

[apathy maybe]

I swear that some where it is written that the notes in my pocket shall be acceptable for any debt public or private. It definitely says that it is legal tender. (From Australia ...)

Re:You've never tried living with cash only

[gl00pp]

My ISP takes cash. but it gives me an IP and its in my name, so its far from anonymous! gl

Re:You've never tried living with cash only

[Anonymous Coward]

a credit card is one thing, a bank account is another thing

Re:You've never tried living with cash only

[apathy maybe]

Umm... USA notes apparently say "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE", I don't know what the status of Australian money is. But the whole system is bankrupt anyway. It is only because people keep accepting money that it is worth anything. If what happened in Germany before the Nazi's took power happens in the USA, say goodbye global economy.

Against, but has advantages

[Sean0michael]

I could see some benefits to a cashless society. First, you no longer have people hoarding currency here or abroad. The loose coins and change that you have in your car, in your sofa, in your pocket, etc. would all be in an account. Here they could all earn interest. Your money would make more money more efficiently. Given it's probably a trivial amount, but still, better than nothing.

It would also be good for international economics since sending money out of the country would be as easy as emailing. The electronic exchange would just run it through an exchange-rate program and you wouldn't have to worry about having to change physical dollars into physical pesos, euros, yen, or yuan.

On the other hand, people who do use credit cards etc. instead of cash tend not to be so responsible with their spending. America is saving at an all-time low, and part of that is because it is so easy to whip out the plastic and pay, not thinking about how much you have left. I could see this system in France leading to great personal debt.

Also, I'm worried about having all of my cash in electronic form--doesn't it kind of depend on electricity? right now money only depends on the durability of the paper or the metal of the coins. Physical currency will last hundreds of years and in all circumstances. But if the power goes out, or your battery dies, you're out of luck. That could be solved with some kind of universal charger for all cellphones or electronic wallets, but still, the problem is there.

Lastly, I'd be worried about security. Identity theft is huge already. I don't want someone just grabbing my cell phone while I'm making a call and running away with it. How would I report it stolen? I certainly can't call the cell phone company and cancel my plan. And then, how do I get to start spending money again? Do I have to go out and buy a new cell phone? It just seems like it has too much to worry about.

Then answer a quesiton for me

[GuloGulo]

What have YOU done to imrpove meaningful public discourse? When was the last time YOU organized a discussion group, scheduled a protest, created a PAC, or did ANYTHING other than whine about it?

You're the worst kind of politico. You've got the spiel down, and in dishing it out, you get people so riled up, they fail to notice all you've done is actually bitch and moan while accomplishing exactly ZERO.

I'll never understand why all you slashtards fall for this shit. For a group of people who are constantly suspicious of everything, guys like the parent manipulate you very easily.

Mod me down, I deserve it. but that's just because I'm tired of the same chicken little sky is falling garbage getting modded straight up, with no regard to the fact that's it's been said a THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE.

THERE'S NOTHING INSIGHTFUL OR INTERESTING ABOUT REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER.

Doh, wrong "cashless"

[gentimjs]

I had thought from the headline that this place was going to try a sharing/cooperation based economy of some form rather than a greed/competition based economy like we currently have.
Sigh, I guess we'll have to wait a few thousand more years....

Re:Doh, wrong "cashless"

[zpok]

"I have ziss smelly cheese and will trade you for your beyoutiful wife, d'accord?"

Disclaimer: living in France and loving it...

Please introduce it in England

[Anonymous Coward]

God, that'd mess up the Big Issue salesmen, and the bloody 'spare some change, guvnor' types, and even the 'my wallet was stolen, can you give me money for the train' lot.

No. I. Don't. Have. Any. Money.

Cashless society in the US too.

[Nick Driver]

With all the massive credit card debt here, and everybody I know never has any money, I guess you could say we've got a cashless society here too!

Won't help

[GuloGulo]

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/wireless/rfidenabled-ca sino-chips-162845.php

Poker chips have RFID chips in them now (or soon will).

Cash...What's that?

[IDontLinkMondays]

I'm an American that lives in Norway. Since moving here 7 years ago, I don't recall using cash very much at all, much to my son's dismay. He likes to jingle my pockets for change to put in his piggy bank, but I have to make special stops to get change for him to avoid disappointing him.

I am a person that never has an empty savings account but regularly keeps my spending account low to avoid spending too much. See it's nice to have a reminder that you're blowing all your dough. I don't go to the ATM machine, so I never know what my balance is. Simply put, if there's no money in the account when I try to pay for something, I pick up my phone, push a few buttons, pay for what I need and I'm cautious for the rest of the month.

Since leaving the states, I no longer have a checkbook. All my bills (except my AMEX) is on autopay. I would put the AMEX that way too, but I'd like to see how much I'm spending on it.

The office I used to work in has a coke machine that was payable by telephone and I've even paid for train tickets using my phone as well.

As for cash, the only time I use it is when I'm paying the maid or paying the car wash that is run by people that would prefer to fly below the radar.

What I'm really trying to say is that Norway has been more or less a cashless society for several years now. Of course people still use cash, I know a lot of older people that still don't feel comfortable with the idea of everything being done with plastic, but it's an option which is nice to leave open to them. Cash has some benefits.

As for the experience in France, well, I see it as publicizing something that is not that interesting. It sounds as if they're just testing to see if telephone payment is an option. Personally I hate that idea since there are many times my telephone battery dies and I'd be stranded. Can you imagine not being able to pay for a taxi because you forgot to charge your battery?

As for America, well it's a long time before this modern world ever gets there. There's a tremendous amount of money made by the banks on bounced check fees and even worse, "Overdraw attempt fees" on using your check cards. I mean, come on, if the money isn't in the bank and the bank and the store knows it there on the spot, it's the store that should penalize you, not the bank. And having worked at a banking clearing house, I wrote a report generator for producing an account of three things on one report.
    1) How much money was lost due to bounced checks
    2) How much money was made from overdraw fees that were later corrected by the account holder
    3) How much of a difference was there between the two.
The number was always positive and not by small margins. I ran this script many many many times because I simply couldn't believe the numbers coming out. In one case, I printing a 60 page report of this activity over a single week and tallied it manually to ensure that what I was calculating was in fact correct. It's unbelievable. The American banking system is dependant on these overdraw fees and will never separate with them. So as long as that's the case, removing classic style paper based money and checks is out of the question.

Re:Cash...What's that?

[ndg123]

As for the experience in France, well, I see it as publicizing something that is not that interesting. It sounds as if they're just testing to see if telephone payment is an option. Personally I hate that idea since there are many times my telephone battery dies and I'd be stranded. Can you imagine not being able to pay for a taxi because you forgot to charge your battery?

The answer's simple then - passive RFID tags inserted under your skin. If its for the consumer's benefit, why would he argue ?

Re:Cash...What's that?

[Dhalka226]

The American banking system is dependant on these overdraw fees and will never separate with them. So as long as that's the case, removing classic style paper based money and checks is out of the question.

Why is it up to them? They already provide the services necessary to make paper checks and cash essentially obsolete; in the time I've had my check (debit) card, I have only written a handful of checks, and it was because the recipient didn't have a method of paying with a card or EFT.

They can bitch and moan as much as they want, but how quickly America becomes a relatively cashless society is dependent upon the merchants and the attitudes of the people, not what the banks want. When I *can* pay for everything without cash, I probably will. I am already pretty close. The banks certainly aren't the limiting factor for me.

Re:Cash...What's that?

[IDontLinkMondays]

It's the fear of the consumer swiping the card and being fined. I was a bit tired when writing and had felt the point was implicitly clear from the rest of the statement. Being able to use cash ensures the average person that they are able pay. With the current system which is directly controlled by banks, when the consumer swipes their card and the payment is rejected because of "attempted overdraw", the consumer is fined $20-$30 by their bank on the spot. I once had this happen to me with a $2 payment because a money transfer from savings to checking had not cleared yet. In countries where the customer is right, if you swipe your card and there isn't enough cash there, then put back an item and swipe again. No penalty. The other issue which I know is a problem, when I was living in Florida, also fondly known by many of the local residents as "The Minimum Wage State", without the ability to float a check for 2 days over the weekend or even face the charge of $30 for a bounced check, there are many average people that can't even buy diapers for their babies. --- On another note, when I first moved to Norway and was initially employed here, I was horrified to hear that the company I worked for would only pay me monthly. I mean that's ridiculos right? Well the fact was, i struggled like hell for the first 3-4 months to get used to it, after all, right after the move, I lived paycheck to paycheck. But after the initial period ended, it was great because then I received a large lump sum of money once per month, I could pay all my bills for the month and have a handle on my finances for the rest of the period. This is quite common here. I think this type of forced budgeting really helps people get thier finances in order and allows the not-so-good at budgetting such as myself to learn the responsibility out of necessity. On a similar note, as an employee, try to avoid working for a firm that pays weekly, it's a sign that the management has learned that their employee base (or sometimes themselves) are not responsible enough to make it more than a week without cash coming in. As an employer, it's a good idea to refuse salary advances except under extrodinary circumstances, if your employees are so poor at managing their own finances that they can't make it from paycheck to paycheck, then it's time to find other employees.

The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[CountBrass]

Swindon, a town in Wiltshire, tried this about 10 years ago. Mondex was the name of the scheme: people could pay for buses and goods in shops using cards they pre-charged with cash. It failed for one reason: people saw no reason to pay for cash (you had to pay for a Mondex card).

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[jacksonj04]

There's a big drive from Maestro (Those responsible for most debit cards. Also known as Cirrus. Associated to MasterCard) to get more people to pay for small things by plastic. Leeds train station is full of ads.

The problem? Transaction fees mean it's pointless vendors accepting them for anything less than about £3.50. To make matters worse, not everywhere accepts Solo, which is an extremely popular variety of Maestro.

I would love to pay for things totally with plastic. Money goes into my bank account, why should I have to muck about turning it into cash before I buy things?

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[Neeex]

Mondex was (or is) also used in universities for paying for laundry machines, amongst others. My university used it but switched to their own similar scheme just before I joined. The problem was that you could only credit your cashcard's account by putting in cash at one of a few machines dotted around campus. Washing machines were 30 seconds away from my room, but the nearest credit machine was 10 minutes' walk. The machines started breaking down, refusing to accept notes, so it started to become hard to actually find a working machine to let you credit your account. It was just a massive hassle to use the system. Needless to say, after one term they switched all the washing machines to just take coins.

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[MSZ]

Money goes into my bank account, why should I have to muck about turning it into cash before I buy things?

Most of the time, plastic is nice and convenient. Unless you want to buy something without leaving traces... All these cashless schemes tend to have tracking as either feature (advertised... rarely to users) or side effect (tracking service not offered but possible).

<tinfoil hat>
You can have problems if the transaction logs fall into wrong hands - governement, marketers, etc. I'm not saying about buying anything illegal, some perfectly legal purchases can be construed to be evidence against you, like "ever bought beer? pay double health insurance you alcoholic!" or "bought quran? send this terrorist scum off to gitmo!" or maybe "ordered "dvd-backup" software? let's raid his house, he's probably infringing copyright!".
</tinfoil>

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[chiskop]

You were lucky.

We had a similar scheme at my university about ten years ago. It had all the problems you describe.

It took a closer to five years for them to phase it out

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[Fred_A]

There is a cashless system that is more or less in use in France called Moneo (fr) which can be enabled on any (French) payment card. You hand the card over to pay and can recharge it at a bank or at various places including street phones from your payment card. The only real use it has is in some towns that mandate its use to pay for parking (prior to that you typically had to buy dedicated smart cards for X hours of parking, one per town, cash was phased out because of very dedicated groups of thiefs).
Apart from that I've never seen or heard of anyone using it for shopping.

Moneo enabled cards can hold 100 € although you can't pay for more than 30 € that way.

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[AndyTheSayer]

... and where I was for undergrad (York) they're still using that sort of system! Though they've taken away the Mondex brand name from it. It wouldn't have been such a bad thing if it were easier to top up (both in terms of number of machines and their reliability).

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[robthebob]

Except the washing machines in my college, that remained on the cashless system all year.

Re:The UK did this about 10 years ago.

[MyLongNickName]

reference please.

Just great...

[Locke2005]

Now we have to deal with bums on the corner acosting us and asking "Hey buddy, can you give me 10 Francs for a cup of coffee?" Listen... if you can afford cell phone service, you can afford to buy your own damn coffee!

But seriously, the major flaw in the scheme is that it assumes EVERYBODY is ready, willing, and able to buy into it. I for one don't wish to buy my 6 year old a mobile just so she can buy lunch at school. Sure, nobody can steal your lunch money without being traced... but they CAN steal your mobile phone, which is worth a lot more!

I don't think they have a choice...

[JustASlashDotGuy]

I would think with unemployment sky rocketing in France, that many French towns world be accustomed to a
cashless society.

Re:I don't think they have a choice...

[Linzer]

Unemployment is *not* sky rocketing in France. It's just high. And it has been so for quite some time now.

Here's a two-fer for ya

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my God! The French surrendered to the Beast!

NFC technology?

[MobyDisk]

Is the NFC system that they are talking about a true digital cash implementation? There are solutions to the digital cash problem that allow security and protect privacy, but all I have ever seen are credit or debit systems. Can anyone here explain what they are doing?

Anonymity?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just purchased a book on combat handgun techniques. I payed with cash, because nobody needs to know that I bought that book. Cash is one of the last great barriers against Big Brother.

I am already cashless!

[peter303]

After taxes, credit cards, $4 gasoline, whose has cash left? :-)

Re:I am already cashless!

[flamingnight]

Where are you paying $4 for gas? Or are you not in the US?

It just hit over $3 here in southwestern CT.

Exeter too

[ultrafunkula]

I lived in Exeter where a small-scale trial was done at around the same time (1996). It was partially successful on the University campus, but I think the combination of the time that it took to load/pay with the cards and the fact that hardly any outlets in the city accepted the card sealed it's fate.

I remember thinking that it was quite convenient, especially when going out on the campus at night - not having to carry cash, and having a spending limit (it's limited to the amount that you load onto the card). Of course, the lure of cheaper drinks if you paid by Mondex was a good point too!

The University also integrated the Mondex card with the student guild (SU) ID card and it could be used to load credits for printers/photocopy machines.

I haven't used cash for about a year

[Firewalker_Midnights]

I've had my pay cheques direct deposited into my bank account since I started my new job. Since most places around here take interac (Bank issued and owned debit cards) or visa, I've not had the need to pay for anything by paper or coin based money, aka cash. If I owe someone money (bought a battery charger off a friend), I paypal or emt (electronic money transfer) them.

It's been about a year since I held paper money in my hand (a five dollar bill), and that was to buy a burger at the local burger stand (seasonal, it's open again, I may have to take out a ten at the ATM) which is not equipped to use Interac or Credit Cards.

It's not inconceivable, nor is it impractical. I find it to be one of the most convenient way of going through my day, and if I could make it faster by going through my phone, or a similar device, then I'd be all too happy to oblige.

Absolutely correct

[GuloGulo]

Whenever someone speak the truth, the troll mods come out.

In this case it was deserved, but you'll notice the only response is the troll mod, with not a single one of you owning up to your ridiculous slurping of karma whores.

So mod me troll til your finger hurts. It doesn't change the fact that you're not bright enough to see when some jackass is pushing your buttons.

And you can mod this one down too. All that does is prove that your incapapble of formulating a coherent response to a legitimate question.

"What? He called attention to the fact that most of the people here are easily manipulated pseudo-intellectuals who aren't aware enough to realize they're being duped? TROLL!!!"

At least I'm not a fucking sheep.

There are no strip clubs in france

[UbuntuDupe]

France's labor laws require them to give employment preferences to those with "seniority". That means that if you run a strip club, you have to hire and give most hours to wrinkly old women. So whatever ones existed have been shut down.

um... or you could go back in time 50 years.

[Anonymous Coward]

have you heard of communism? that is exactly what you are describing.

Mod parent up +1 irony

[networkBoy]

It's free with the bankin^H^H^H^H^H^Hservice contract.
-nB

More about electronic services

[MrNougat]

This seems to have more to do with delivery of information and advertising to personal electronic devices than being cashless. I'm already cashless, using debit/credit cards for all purchases except those I wish to hide from my wife. She would ask what my $100 purchase at the computer store was about, but be less likely to question my need for a new video card (a need that she wouldn't understand if it were explained anyway).

I've also seen how "encouraging" people to go cashless acts as a regressive tax on the poor, with the proceeds going to profit business, not the public interest. Examples:

Illinois changed their tollway system such that you pay double if you're using cash instead of the I-Pass automatic collection device. The device costs $10, and the minimum amount you can add to it is $40; adding money to your account requires either a credit card or bank account. For many people, having enough money to have a bank account and let $40 sit on a tollway account at the same time is impossible, so they end up getting "nickel-and-dimed" over time.

We're all aware of the fees associated with ATM withdrawals, often times from both the customer's bank and the ATM's bank. So taking out $20 can easily cost $4 in fees. For people who have plenty of money to spare, these fees are negligible, but for most, they rack up to a substantial sum in short order. The same goes for any kind of flat fee - the less money you have/earn, the more valuable the amount of that fee is.

Creating a truly cashless society, where even person-to-person exchanges are handled electronically, shifts the overall tax base to the poor, who often do work off the books (side jobs and tips). Yes, you're supposed to declare income earned from those kinds of side jobs, but most don't. This acts as a tax shelter for the non-rich, who don't have enough liquid assets to be able to afford legal tax shelters, and it's this kind of sheltered income that allows many people to survive from week to week.

There are underground economies everywhere, and cashlessness would force those economies above board to some degree. I don't see how that would be beneficial to the majority of people. Unfortunately, the majority of people don't have a voice in whether cashlessness will happen or not - because they don't have enough money to make themselves heard. Total catch 22.

Two sided sword

[chord.wav]

This is great for some things, but puts another layer of abstraction between you and your money. That makes you spend much more than yoiu would have if you had cash, because you actually see it fly away.

Same as ATMs, those are like "push to get a banana" machines for test monkeys. Press a combination of buttons and you get free cash! I know you don't think this way, but most people seem to.

Really... WTF???

[Hurricane78]

Can we agree to summarize your posting to:

"It all came upon us. We could not do anything against it!"

Are you running around in some kind of daydream?

This is simply wrong, because *everyone* can do something *every single day*.

The real problem here is that most poeple *don't* do it. They'e lazy as hell and accept everything, as long as they can continue to be lazy. But i don't even want to blame them for it. Maybe it's teh right way in things of evolution... Maybe companies tricked them into it.

But nonetheless they just said "we can't do anything" without even trying!
And if you don't try it you can't see fi someone else will come with you and if you will succeed.

How log do you think the government would do something if millions of poeple would go straight to their government buildings and scream at them to stop it?
Not one day!

One great exampe are the students in france. They got it their way because they lasted long enough and were strong enough. The only reason it did not go quicker is because they were not enough to get over the police and they did not have the money.

That's why i try to be the "starter" as early and as often as possible. Because the other poeple just say "you can't do anything if you're alone". and then i tell them "now you're not alone anymore!". but in their primitive lazyness they still don't want to do something. they just want to complain. that's when i tell them that *they* are the real reason why it's still that way. if they don't want it that way they can change it. but they don't want to. this is true for most poeple... no matter how many poeple are out there already, fighting for it.

So what can we do? Well... after th inking about it somewhat, you'll get to the point where you get two choices:
1. try to trick the government and media into a better education of poeple and wait some years/generations. (because that is the only way you can change something if youR'e alone.)
2. make a new start somewhere outside of that system and let it die alone. (pretty hard if you don't like being alone in your cave for the rest of your life)

Wow...

[Shads]

... cyberpunk cred sticks heh.

Cash...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy your weed with it man!!!!

Well, this year, anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

"Maybe it is one of those things where if you aren't doing anything wrong,"

Well, maybe not this year, but in 5 years someone decides that buying things from the baker (who it turns out was arrested for "anti-government activity"), then you become a suspect.

This is bad for privacy. But what do we care, because it means we don't have to carry that dirty money anymore.

Re:NFC technology?

[Ecyrd]

NFC is many things (see http://nfc-forum.org/), but one of the things it does is that it enables your cell phone to masquerade a contactless credit card. A contactless credit card is pretty much the same as a regular credit card, except that instead of a magnetic stripe it is using a way more complicated (and secure) protocol to authenticate itself to a reader device.

NFC also allows your cell phone to be a reader/writer device, though if you do not have the correct software, keys, and authorization in place, you won't be able to read anyone else's credit cards (rather obviously). But you would be able to read RFID tags that have been placed around in the environment. Instead of worrying that the government is going to track the RFID tags placed on you, you could actually take them into good use for your own purposes (certain limitations apply: NFC works on a particular frequency, and not all RFID systems work on the same frequency.)

NFC also allows two NFC devices to communicate bi-directionally, so you can have a very short range radio communication between two cell phones, for example. Not for talking, obviously, but for no-nonsense data transfer. Bluetooth is great, but it suffers from long range - you'll have multiple devices in your read range which makes an UI necessary for device selection. With NFC you can just bring two devices close and have files transferred.

I personally think it's got a lot of good, old-fashioned hacking potential ;-)

poulet ou oeuf

[gosand]

OK, how do you buy a mobile phone?

It's an erosion of liberty, plain and simple

[PCM2]

You seem to be missing the point. The point is not how often you use cash...the point is that for the most part it is an anonymous payment system. A direct transfer is not.

There is a more sinister aspect to it, even if you are not a completely paranoid conspiracy theorist. Money is a piece of paper. Once upon a time it was a receipt for a certain quantity of a precious substance, like gold or silver, but chances are that's no longer the case where you live. But at least it's still a piece of paper. People recognize that it's money, and when you've got some in your pocket, most people will accept it for goods and services.

A payment card, on the other hand -- be it a credit card or a bank debit card -- is itself a service. You use that piece of plastic at the whim of some financial institution. If whatever power chooses to rescind your right to that service -- in other words, if, for whatever reason, they turn off your card -- POOF! It doesn't matter how much "money" you have. You can no longer carry out transactions. You have been effectively ostracized from society.

And think of all the reasons this might happen. The government might decide that people who use their cards to buy drugs are bad citizens, and that those cards should be restricted from use. Or the finance corporation that provides the payment card service might decide that you're not in full compliance with the terms of their service -- maybe the corporation feels you owe it some fee, or you haven't signed off on some clause or another -- and it's going to withhold your use of the service until you settle up.

This is a slippery slope. And you can come at it from all different angles -- call it another tool of totalitarianism if you want, or call it the erosion of capitalism. In effect it makes free commerce the privilege of those who follow the rules, rather than the right of every free citizen. That ain't the country I signed up for.

Re:It's an erosion of liberty, plain and simple

[petermgreen]

A payment card, on the other hand -- be it a credit card or a bank debit card -- is itself a service. You use that piece of plastic at the whim of some financial institution. If whatever power chooses to rescind your right to that service -- in other words, if, for whatever reason, they turn off your card -- POOF! It doesn't matter how much "money" you have. You can no longer carry out transactions. You have been effectively ostracized from society.

carrying moderate ammounts of cash might keep you alive for a few days if your lucky (so would having a well stocked kitchen though) but unless you hoard a lot of cash then your gonig to have to get cash from the bank pretty quickly (unless ofc you are earning in cash but most people don't).

i guess you could take up cash in hand work like illegal immigrants do though (though you could do that even if your previous system had always been cards).

if the government is out to get you then your in real trouble unless you either have a huge stash of cash or can find a way to make income outside normal society like illegal immigrants do (and you can bet if cash is eliminated people looking for cheap labour will find some way to keep thier illegal immigrants alive). Problems with a particular company can be dealt with in the short term at least by having multiple accounts.

Gimme a 6

[Marko DeBeeste]

Gimme a six, gimme a 666

not really recent new isn't it ?

[manuel.flury]

C'est une nouvelle qui n'est pas très fraîche ! : (mardi 18 octobre 2005)

Oh dear

[HawkingMattress]

I live there, never heard of that, and it kinda feels strange to learn it from slashdot, US centric and all...
I guess i should go out more. But i fear the nazis might catch me... This war is getting long, when are you guys coming to give us a hand ?

"Flytag"?

[payndz]

But this is France! Shouldn't they call it something annoyingly overcomplicated like 'étiquette de mouche' to protect the language?

(Blame Google for the translation. :p)

Re:the higher quality product will last longer

[zmollusc]

The difficulty is in assessing the quality of a product. You only get what you pay for if you are lucky. Often an item costing over twice as much is just as crappy as the cheap one, especially since all manufacturing is now outsourced to one insomniac in a mud hut somewhere.

French test cashless society...

[slashname3]

I thought the French have been testing cashless socieity for some time now. Isn't that what all the riots were about earlier this year?

Who needs stripclubs?

[corvenus]

When you can just go to the beach and everyone is topless!

No Cash, No Clothes?

[FireIron]

Why not? Another town is testing a pantsless society.

In Belgium we have it already

[Anonymous Coward]

I buy my newspaper, cigarettes using proton.

http://www.proton.be/

Actualy most low cost expenses can be paied this way. You just load a chip card with a predefined amount of money. It's a equivalent of a wallet.

Bigger amounts you use the same card together with a pin. Cash withdrawals or payment they directly charge you're bank account.

I'll control my own money, thanks.

[AriaStar]

If all our money is on a card and we can't actually hold it in our hands, we have no control over it. What if you lose the card and have no back-up cash? What if the government just plain decides to attach your money to something or the bank decides to impose new fees without your consent? I'm one of those who keeps my money in CASH because I have the control over it and feel that it's safer hidden at home than it is under the control of a financial institution.

Tourist town? Mobile phone payments?

[Kopretinka]

They can't really do away with real money in a tourist town. I highly doubt my foreign pay-as-you-go cell phone would allow me to pay conveniently in Caen.

Cashless Lifestyle?

[Hoi Polloi]

When I was in college I was living in a cashless society. Ok, it was just me.

One Problem (or is it a blessing?)

[rikkards]

What are the panhandlers going to do in a cashless area?

Cashback cards are a prisoner's dilemma scenario.

[Valdrax]

For example, Citibank has a card which gives 5% back on groceries, gas, and prescriptions, and 1% back on everything else, which comes out to a fair amount of money you get back. You don't get money back if you stick to cash or checks.

This money mostly comes from a cut of the merchant fees embedded in every purchase; credit card companies have basically forced retailers to pass the surcharges on to everybody and not just credit card users.

It's a Prisoner's Dilemma scenario. Everyone who uses credit cards drives up the prices for everybody. Only people who use credit cards can get a discount for using credit cards as companies give back a cut of what they demand from retailers.

If no one used credit cards, prices would be lower since the merchant's fees wouldn't be spread out across all goods. However, if people use credit cards, then prices are pushed up for everybody except credit card users who get a discount relative to the others even though they still pay slightly more too.

Assume that a spread-out merchant's fee is a surcharge of X on goods, that a cashback card gives back 80% of that, and that the price on goods responds instantly to changes in cost:

........... | B uses card ......... | B uses cash
A uses card | A pays 0.4X surcharge | A pays 0.2X surcharge
........... | B pays 0.4X surcharge | B pays 1.0X surcharge
A uses cash | A pays 1.0X surcharge | A pays no surcharge
........... | B pays 0.2X surcharge | B pays no surcharge

Naturally, prices don't change that fast in the real world, but the aggregate of merchant fees do get applied to prices eventually.

At any rate, credit cards are also evil because they give a third party information that tracks your purchases and locations, and if you get sick or find yourself suddenly unable to pay, you may get hit with suddenly increased interest rates and unable to declare bankruptcy thanks to tougher laws passed on the behalf of credit card companies. Welcome to legalized usury -- predatory lending to the financially disadvantaged.

I guesss

[SuperKendall]

Question: How do you buy a phone?

Well, it must be the first gadget in history that literally pays for itself!

Wonder if this is what they had in mind..

[DieByWire]

Considering France's economy, maybe they're talking about this cashless economy. (Scroll down for 'Area Man Participates in Cashless Economy.')

Iceland

[backwardMechanic]

In Iceland you can buy just about everything with plastic, however small. Even the buses accept cards. Having tried it, it made me wonder why the rest of us don't do the same.

Of course, a night out in Reykjavik really needs a credit card, but that's another story...

Re:Iceland

[pommiekiwifruit]

Of course, a night out in Reykjavik really needs a credit card, but that's another story...

Well it does last for several months :-)

Yes

[Shawn is an Asshole]

The only times I use credit cards are:

gas
online
anything I buy at a store over $200.

Everything else is cash. I keep about $30 on me usually, more if I'm at a concert (where water is around $4/bottle). If I'm going to a store to buy something I stop by an ATM on the way.

Hopeless idea here

[Wolfier]

I'd be overjoyed if North America manages to get rid of the PENNIES.

Let alone cold, hard cash altogether.

Octopus

[captaineo]

Hong Kong's Octopus card system works much the same way. It can be used for all forms of public transport (subway, bus, ferry, tram, etc), and is now accepted for payment at 7-11 and MacDonalds.

cash ftw

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Japan, and we've been able to pay via cell phone for a while now, though Japan is a very cash-based economy, and no where near going cashless. I think that's a good thing though. ATMs are everywhere, and you can use the equivalent of 100 dollar bills in train ticket vending machines among other things.

HOORAY!!!!

[Ivan Matveitch]

This is what everyone in the whole world has been waiting for!!!!! Excuse me while I dance around the room.

How taxes really work!

[SonicSpike]

This is a good explanation of how our tax system really works.

Sometimes politicians, journalists and others exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and it is just accepted to be fact.

But what does that really mean?

Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, I hope the following will help. Please read it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere might be somewhat friendlier.

Identity Fraud

[SonicSpike]

Can we all grow up and quit calling it "identity theft" ???

I realize you didn't specifically do that, but if you are a victim of someone using your name without your permission, then that is called FRAUD!
THEFT =| FRAUD

And yes this stems from the "stealing music" vs "copyright infringement" argument because correct usage of these phrases is IMPORTANT for describing what actually took place. Otherwise we can just willy nilly choose words to mean anything and live in linguistic chaos which makes us susceptible to FUD and propaganda!

New? Aye?

[kaiwai]

In New Zealand we have EFTPOS; a large network created back in the 1970s by the government owned Databank, which forced all banks to network their systems together via the Reserve Bank to provide speedy transfers of money between customers, banks and the likes.

Today, we have EFTPOS, I can go anywhere in New Zealand with my EFTPOS card and I can access my money either via an EFTPOS machine at either the local service station, pizza chain, and heck, even the pie cart out the front of Wellington station has an EFTPOS machine hooked up to a mobile phone - thus, able to conduct transactions even where there are no telephone lines! I can go online, pay all my bills via the online system, transfer cash between accounts and send money to people.

So this whole 'cashless society' maybe new to Europeans and Americans, but I can assure, in New Zealand, the two largest forms of payment are EFTPOS, followed by Credit Card, then cash, and right behind, and slowly dying, are cheques. When people say 'I'm paying by cheque' the automatic assumption by those at the till is, 'this person doesn't have the money, and is riding on the hope that they'll get cash in the next 5 days' and tend to be wary of accepting it.

we have a similar system for long time

[Anonymous Coward]

In Estonia you can transfer funds, pay cab fare, buy food etc with your mobile phone for years now.
All you need to do is activate the service from your bank web page and thats it.

big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans wouldn't have any cash even if they didn't have credit cards.