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In terms of evangelical conservative views, of course they make terrible wives and mothers...

Until you realize that an Evangelical Conservative view a husband and wife are co-equals, differing responsibilities but equal and submissive to each other (Ephesians 5:21-6:4 and Genesis 2:20-25, among other places.)

In terms of evangelical conservative views, of course they make terrible wives and mothers...

Until you realize that an Evangelical Conservative view a husband and wife are co-equals, differing responsibilities but equal and submissive to each other (Ephesians 5:21-6:4 and Genesis 2:20-25, among other places.)

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

if I remember my sunday school the "deal" with christians is that they believe all men are fundamentally messed up

Yes, this is a foundational teaching of both the Hebrew Old Testament, and the Christian Bible as a whole.

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'"
- Paul, an Apostle of Christ, refering to the ancient Jewish king and prophet David

Now, that may sound absurd at first, because we're used to lowering the moral standard down to the level of our performance - butchersong said it well:

The alternative of course is simply to adjust your moral and ethical compass to reflect the limitations of man.

God is not impressed when we "proclaim each his own goodness"; He refuses to settle for anything less than true goodness. Jesus Christ commanded his followers, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

But, what is meant by "perfect"? What is "goodness"? "What is truth?"

As mankind's Creator and Judge, God reserves the right to answer these questions for us. He made us with a purpose: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Mankind was designed to reflect God's nature, character, and glory:

God "cannot lie", and so mankind is forbidden to lie.
God is holy (that is, pure and separate from evil), and so mankind must be holy.
God is faithful, and so we must be also - toward God, and to each other.
"God is love", and the whole law of God is ultimately based on just two commands:

"Jesus said to him, ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'

Put another way - do you think Israel developed nukes because they were afraid that they'd get nuked by the USA or the Russians? Of course not, they developed nukes as a contingency against the possibility of total conventional defeat.

Yes, that is precisely why they should never have been permitted to become a nuclear power. They are publicly proud to be working on specious logic, and they are engaging in genocide just as they were proud to do in days of old. (For some reason they left the Moabites alone while they were killing the Midianites... the moabites supposedly being the descendants of Lot and his daughters. What a crazy bunch of nuts.) Having them be that powerful and maybe even drop a nuke is actually on our agenda.

The Bible does say that God is slow to anger. All wrong-doings will be punished, eventually, either in this life or the next, with God sometimes patiently waiting an entire generation and then punishing the next one. Like when King Josiah turned away from all the sins of his ancestors, he still got the previous generation's punishment. The point being, all wrongdoing will be punished by God's great wrath, eventually, in a way indistinguishable from the statistical likelihood of bad events occurring naturally.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I've never really understood the hate for Christianity.

Simple. Christianity has lost its reputation for love, and instead gained one for being hateful meddlers.

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." -- 1 John 4:7-8
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. -- Matthew 7:12

But Christians now look more like this.

I've never really understood the hate for Christianity.

Simple. Christianity has lost its reputation for love, and instead gained one for being hateful meddlers.

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." -- 1 John 4:7-8
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. -- Matthew 7:12

But Christians now look more like this.

I've never really understood the hate for Christianity.

Simple. Christianity has lost its reputation for love, and instead gained one for being hateful meddlers.

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." -- 1 John 4:7-8
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. -- Matthew 7:12

But Christians now look more like this.

I've never really understood the hate for Christianity.
I'm a practicing christian who also runs a company that develops hi-tech products employing over 50 people. To say that my faith is a 'murderer of intelligence' is non sequitur. About the only area where faith and science clash is evolution, and evolution science makes up a minuscule part of the sciences but seems to cause a reaction way out of proportion to its practical significance.

The modern christian church does a lot of good in society. I haven't seen many 'society of atheists' running soup kitchens, or micro finance banks, or free surgery ships, or child sponsorship programs, or crisis counseling centers, or refugee support programs.

If you want a great summary of Christianity, read this.
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...

> But instead he hides and

Blaming others because you are looking in the wrong place, is well, let's just leave it at that.

The Source is found inside, not outside as Jesus summarized in Luke 17:21:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He clarified:

And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"

The principles which can be found earlier in the Torah at Deuteronomy 30:6:

The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

One of the few things Paul the Corruptor got right was in 1 Cor 6:19-20

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

Even Rabbi's know this.

"Likely only relevant to Jews." - whys id itn the old testament then?

Because it is there for those who are interested to learn from. The word Torah, often translated "The Law" is actually better translated as "Instruction". The Torah is not your personal rule book from Jesus; neither is it to be used to beat your neighbor over the head. Also, Levitical Law is not binding on Gentiles. It never has been. Gentiles are not part of that Covenant. For that matter, Jews are not engaging in genocide of entire peoples; that may suggest that your interpretation of those passages doesn't mean what you think it means. Just sayin'.

Rabbi Hillel was once approached by a Gentile with a strange request: 'Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.' The Rabbi responded 'What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour: that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it.'

" Xians generally disavow most if not all of the Old Testament." - If thats the case why is the Lords prayer and ten commandments still being used by christians and its used to justify hate of gays etc if they disavow the old testament - all you are saying is they cherry pick the good(?) bits when its convenient. Why don't they re-write the old testament and rid themselves of Gods word?

I would say that Christians usually don't understand the point Rabbi Hillel made above, rather than completely disavowing the Old Testament. Also, neither the Ten Commandments nor the Lord's prayer say anything about gays. You should really read them sometime.

"If you want to commit mass character assassination, try starting with the New Testament." - Jesus didn;t refute any of the old testament or his dads horrific ways/demands and he lied about performing miracles so he is just as bad as his dad - how did i do?

How did you do? My personal assessment: needs improvement. Jesus did indeed say that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it. (Matt 5:17). But he also said “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matt 22:34-40). If you are not doing those, then I don't think you are doing it right. I hope this helps.

"Likely only relevant to Jews." - whys id itn the old testament then?

Because it is there for those who are interested to learn from. The word Torah, often translated "The Law" is actually better translated as "Instruction". The Torah is not your personal rule book from Jesus; neither is it to be used to beat your neighbor over the head. Also, Levitical Law is not binding on Gentiles. It never has been. Gentiles are not part of that Covenant. For that matter, Jews are not engaging in genocide of entire peoples; that may suggest that your interpretation of those passages doesn't mean what you think it means. Just sayin'.

Rabbi Hillel was once approached by a Gentile with a strange request: 'Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.' The Rabbi responded 'What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour: that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it.'

" Xians generally disavow most if not all of the Old Testament." - If thats the case why is the Lords prayer and ten commandments still being used by christians and its used to justify hate of gays etc if they disavow the old testament - all you are saying is they cherry pick the good(?) bits when its convenient. Why don't they re-write the old testament and rid themselves of Gods word?

I would say that Christians usually don't understand the point Rabbi Hillel made above, rather than completely disavowing the Old Testament. Also, neither the Ten Commandments nor the Lord's prayer say anything about gays. You should really read them sometime.

"If you want to commit mass character assassination, try starting with the New Testament." - Jesus didn;t refute any of the old testament or his dads horrific ways/demands and he lied about performing miracles so he is just as bad as his dad - how did i do?

How did you do? My personal assessment: needs improvement. Jesus did indeed say that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it. (Matt 5:17). But he also said “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matt 22:34-40). If you are not doing those, then I don't think you are doing it right. I hope this helps.

There are stark differences for a modern Christian.

As an Atheist who has read the entire Bible, including the Old Testament, and scanned significant bits of the Koran, I would actually prefer to live under the rule of a Koranic literalist. The Koran is just as bad as the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is part of the Bible. Period. But at least the Koran is clear, so I can figure out which lies to tell to whom to avoid punishment.

The New Testament's supposed compassion really doesn't help, because Jesus never literally says flat-out "OK we'll be tolerant, sex-positive, set up an independent Judiciary which respects the right to disagree with me, etc." He says a bunch of vague-ass shit about changing everything, fails to mention what any of that shit means, adds in an Authoritarian "Render unto Caesar" comment, and spends the whole time denouncing various sins that modern Christians don't think are particularly sinful (such as anything involving sex, and not believing in Him), without specifying any sort of legal or ethical framework that a sinner such as myself could use.

Don't get me wrong. If you add in an ethical framework from some other source (such as Catholic Church Traditions, or modern progressive Christianity) it is inherently better for me then Koranic literalism because modern ethical frameworks tend to rein in the most brutal tendencies of Ancient Near Eastern religious documents, but if you're gonna let the Christians cheat and reinterpret their Bible to include numerous post-Enlightenment, then you also have to let the Muslims cheat and use a Koranic government that lets Rima Fakih run around without a headscarf protecting the "glories of her hair" from us nasty male eyeballs.

Incidentally, if you want to know how seriously Christians take their Bible the "Glories of a woman's hair" comment I just made is actually a paraphrase of 1 Corinthians in the New Testament. Which means to an actual Biblical literalist, any time you see a woman's hair she is sinning. Hair covering's also part of the Jewish Tradition.

Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
        on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
        “tear it down to its foundations!”

Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
        happy is the one who repays you
        according to what you have done to us.

Happy is the one who seizes your infants
        and dashes them against the rocks.

I prefer the Boney M version.

Not only do the people who have stuck by you during the hard times deserve the reward,

You know, my gut reaction was to agree with your comment. But, thinking about it more I don't think "deserve the reward" is quite right. To be honest, I don't think any person can be said to "deserve" $100 Million. Not only does it create the sort of imbalance that Notch is talking about with others, as you have the equivalent buying power of hundreds of people over their whole life, but it's pretty clear that there are others who work harder, smarter, etc who still never see any "reward" of that scale and the very nature of such a reward only works precisely because it's so rare. To that end, at some level it's a curse. You get all the greedy and anger and fear of others, which you have to spend a lot of your effort placating, just to have anything like a normal relationship with them.

but they're the ones who have proven who you can trust.

Now this is the part I agree with. The real question is what it means "proven who you can trust". It doesn't mean a lack of greed or selfish imposition. It means more, "I know enough about them that I can trust myself to know their worst impulses". Giving them $100 Million might be enough to placate them for a while, but consider the The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. One can burn through $100 Million without trying, and it doesn't take much spending for jealousy to take hold, no matter the scale. It's one reason why, in a way, the discussion is most about buying off your friend's greedy to try to keep their monkey off their back.

The "wild west" stuff with the settlers running the locals off their reservation even bounces it back into comparisons to the USA some time back.

This Land Is Mine.

Look, seriously, Nobody does ethnic cleansing like the Jews. You think the politicians who created the nation of Israel were aware of history? I'm sure they were. They put the Jews there just to shit on the natives. So far, so good, right? And We The People of the USA pour gasoline on that bonfire every year. Your tax dollars at work.

This is not to say that all Jews are bad people. It's to say that Zionism is another typical evil. You know, like the USA, founded on theft, rape, and oppression. What a surprise that today we are still stealing, raping, and oppressing... and funding genocide that we're too cowardly to handle ourselves. Genocide by proxy, that's the most convenient way!

When you find the second such player in the Israeli-Arab conflict, please let Israel know.

Don't you mean when you find the first such player? Israel is engaging in slow, systematic genocide. They're just continuing where they left off in Numbers.

If you're looking for an innocent party the size of a nation, you're going to look for a long time.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery

Matthew 5:32
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matthew 19:16-22
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Titus 1:5-9 NASB
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

There you go. The original command regarding adultery, Jesus upholding it and directing one who inquired to keep it and the specific requirement that church leaders be faithful husbands of only one wife. As well as the statements that divorce (except due to an unfaithful spouse) and remarriage is adultery.

www.biblegateway.com if you wish to look for some of the many other references I didn't include.

> Needless to say, it did not work out well.

Thanks - but that's a story.

Here's how real life 'worked out' for the author -- she who collected social security cheques as one who “regards it as restitution and opposes all forms of welfare statism”.

References:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://ari.aynrand.org/issues...

Rand underwent surgery for lung cancer in 1974 after decades of heavy smoking.[95] In 1976, she retired from writing her newsletter and, despite her initial objections, allowed Evva Pryor, a social worker from her attorney's office, to enroll her in Social Security and Medicare.[96][97] During the late 1970s her activities within the Objectivist movement declined, especially after the death of her husband on November 9, 1979.[98] One of her final projects was work on a never-completed television adaptation of Atlas Shrugged.[99]

But to your main point - 'to each according to his needs' (Rand's story) is very different from 'set minimum wage' (Gravity Payments).

In fact, the story it should remind you of is this one (at least that's what Gravity's CEO states was his inspiration behind his move):
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...

Indeed, looking at the current situation in China, I'd say the West is doing a pretty fine job of letting them wallow in their own corruption right now.

Matthew 7:3-5 https://www.biblegateway.com/p...

What would you want to do that for? You'll put your eye out, kid!

What would you want to do that for? You'll put your eye out, kid!

I think the Christians' rule is that any part of the Mosaic law reiterated by Paul in the New Testament is still in effect. This includes "murderers" and "men who lie with men". --Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

I think the Christians' rule is that any part of the Mosaic law reiterated by Paul in the New Testament is still in effect. This includes "murderers" and "men who lie with men". --Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

I don't understand the "atonement through Christ's death". How does the death of someone, especially if they know they are divine and will rise again, atone for the sins of someone else? Is it like if I pay for someone else's parking ticket?

Kind of, but not really. From Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." So God gave a way for people to atone for their sins through blood sacrifice, otherwise all would perish. However, it's not something he desired; the tribes of Israel were using it as a loophole instead of an actual act of contrition (See Isaiah 1:11-17).

That makes sense in terms of financial punishment, but it doens't make sense for person A to spend time in jail for a murder commited by person B.

Sins are sometimes referred to as debts. For instance, in some Bible translations, you'll see the Lord's Prayer as "forgive us our debts as we forgive others' debts" instead of "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." So when you commit a sin, you essentially have a debt that needs to be paid.

Why would God accept payment for that? Surely God knew that Jesus's death was not permanent?

Yes, of course he knew Jesus would be resurrected. That was always a part of the prophecy regarding the Christ. As to why he selected this method to allow all people to atone for their sin, I'm afraid I can't give a complete answer to that, but I'm not sure anyone can. God says in Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways...". From the best of my ability to understand, it has to do with his desire to show mercy to the world, but still uphold justice.

I don't understand the "atonement through Christ's death". How does the death of someone, especially if they know they are divine and will rise again, atone for the sins of someone else? Is it like if I pay for someone else's parking ticket?

Kind of, but not really. From Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." So God gave a way for people to atone for their sins through blood sacrifice, otherwise all would perish. However, it's not something he desired; the tribes of Israel were using it as a loophole instead of an actual act of contrition (See Isaiah 1:11-17).

That makes sense in terms of financial punishment, but it doens't make sense for person A to spend time in jail for a murder commited by person B.

Sins are sometimes referred to as debts. For instance, in some Bible translations, you'll see the Lord's Prayer as "forgive us our debts as we forgive others' debts" instead of "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." So when you commit a sin, you essentially have a debt that needs to be paid.

Why would God accept payment for that? Surely God knew that Jesus's death was not permanent?

Yes, of course he knew Jesus would be resurrected. That was always a part of the prophecy regarding the Christ. As to why he selected this method to allow all people to atone for their sin, I'm afraid I can't give a complete answer to that, but I'm not sure anyone can. God says in Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways...". From the best of my ability to understand, it has to do with his desire to show mercy to the world, but still uphold justice.

I don't understand the "atonement through Christ's death". How does the death of someone, especially if they know they are divine and will rise again, atone for the sins of someone else? Is it like if I pay for someone else's parking ticket?

Kind of, but not really. From Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." So God gave a way for people to atone for their sins through blood sacrifice, otherwise all would perish. However, it's not something he desired; the tribes of Israel were using it as a loophole instead of an actual act of contrition (See Isaiah 1:11-17).

That makes sense in terms of financial punishment, but it doens't make sense for person A to spend time in jail for a murder commited by person B.

Sins are sometimes referred to as debts. For instance, in some Bible translations, you'll see the Lord's Prayer as "forgive us our debts as we forgive others' debts" instead of "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." So when you commit a sin, you essentially have a debt that needs to be paid.

Why would God accept payment for that? Surely God knew that Jesus's death was not permanent?

Yes, of course he knew Jesus would be resurrected. That was always a part of the prophecy regarding the Christ. As to why he selected this method to allow all people to atone for their sin, I'm afraid I can't give a complete answer to that, but I'm not sure anyone can. God says in Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways...". From the best of my ability to understand, it has to do with his desire to show mercy to the world, but still uphold justice.

The whole idea of faith is belief without proof; if God "proved" himself then we have proof, and no faith. Or something like that, is what all the religious people tell me.

No it's not. All the religious people you've talked to have gotten it wrong. Even Jesus asked his disciples to make their decision about him based upon what they had witnessed:

37 "Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

If God is real, and requires his followers to do all the anti-humanity acts in the various texts, that entity shouldn't be worshiped anyway.

Why not? How can you, in a universe without objective moral truth, say anyone should or shouldn't do anything and be able to have any legitimacy? The very best you can do is state a preference, but you can't make a moral judgement.

God is quite a violent entity; I'd rather have us go it alone than have some homicidal, all-powerful creature just waiting to burn me forever in hell because I mowed my lawn on a Saturday.

Yes, atheistic regimes have been peaceful & made the world a better place. *smh*

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. ... Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Go re-read that passage after you read up on the concept of Original Sin. The "standard" interpretation would be not that sex/conception is a sin per se, but rather that "in sin did my mother conceive me" (King James Version) means "when I was conceived (by my mother) I had sin in me already", rather than "it was a sinful act on my mother's part to conceive me". See the Easy-to-Read Version or even the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition for less "poetic" translation.

As for the rest, I agree they're vague, but they do somewhat support operagost's point that humanity may begin before birth - there is awareness before birth and God take active interest in the unborn.

Granted, efforts to end pregnancy aren't just a modern thing, so if it's on God's naughty list, it's somewhat strange not to see an explicit statement against it in the Bible. On the other hand, leaving it implicit could have been because everyone at the time was "supposed to have known" that unborn babies counted as humans in the prohibition against murder. As a very crude analogy, a modern day judge isn't going to accept the argument that "Nowhere in the law does it explicitly say *mimes* can't be killed - if you're in a non-existent box, how can you be a real person?"

tl;dr: Interpretation of bible quotes is rarely as straightforward as people slinging them on the internet make them out to be.
 

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. ... Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Go re-read that passage after you read up on the concept of Original Sin. The "standard" interpretation would be not that sex/conception is a sin per se, but rather that "in sin did my mother conceive me" (King James Version) means "when I was conceived (by my mother) I had sin in me already", rather than "it was a sinful act on my mother's part to conceive me". See the Easy-to-Read Version or even the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition for less "poetic" translation.

As for the rest, I agree they're vague, but they do somewhat support operagost's point that humanity may begin before birth - there is awareness before birth and God take active interest in the unborn.

Granted, efforts to end pregnancy aren't just a modern thing, so if it's on God's naughty list, it's somewhat strange not to see an explicit statement against it in the Bible. On the other hand, leaving it implicit could have been because everyone at the time was "supposed to have known" that unborn babies counted as humans in the prohibition against murder. As a very crude analogy, a modern day judge isn't going to accept the argument that "Nowhere in the law does it explicitly say *mimes* can't be killed - if you're in a non-existent box, how can you be a real person?"

tl;dr: Interpretation of bible quotes is rarely as straightforward as people slinging them on the internet make them out to be.
 

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. ... Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Go re-read that passage after you read up on the concept of Original Sin. The "standard" interpretation would be not that sex/conception is a sin per se, but rather that "in sin did my mother conceive me" (King James Version) means "when I was conceived (by my mother) I had sin in me already", rather than "it was a sinful act on my mother's part to conceive me". See the Easy-to-Read Version or even the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition for less "poetic" translation.

As for the rest, I agree they're vague, but they do somewhat support operagost's point that humanity may begin before birth - there is awareness before birth and God take active interest in the unborn.

Granted, efforts to end pregnancy aren't just a modern thing, so if it's on God's naughty list, it's somewhat strange not to see an explicit statement against it in the Bible. On the other hand, leaving it implicit could have been because everyone at the time was "supposed to have known" that unborn babies counted as humans in the prohibition against murder. As a very crude analogy, a modern day judge isn't going to accept the argument that "Nowhere in the law does it explicitly say *mimes* can't be killed - if you're in a non-existent box, how can you be a real person?"

tl;dr: Interpretation of bible quotes is rarely as straightforward as people slinging them on the internet make them out to be.
 

I'm not religious, but curiosity got the best of me so looked up all your citations and I just don't see it:

Luke 1:41-44:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
We all know Mary has a magic fetus, and the fact that it's nearness to another fetus, which jumps in the womb in response, seems a special case. Most fetuses aren't exposed to gods.

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. That seems pretty thin, especially when the writer near the end talks about how god doesn't care about burnt offerings, and then four lines later about all the burnt offerings he is going to give god. If sex is a sin, so are the products of it. Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Psalm 139:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
This one seems basically at odds with 51 which decried conception as a dirty nasty sin. Now we're hearing how the writer was "knit together in my mother's womb" and how awesome god is at knitting. When does a ball of yarn become a sweater? That isn't answered here. Is a partially completed garment the same as the marvelous completed garment? That isn't answered here either. What is jarring though, is that right after explaining how god is the uber-knitter, he goes into talking about how much he wished god would help him kill and destroy all his enemies. Psychotic.

Jeremiah 1:5
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
Sounds like god is talking to a specific person who will be a prophet to all nations. I'm guessing Jeremiah was that dude? Is there any evidence that all people in all times and places were getting this special attention from god, to be prophets to each other? If they all know the same stuff -- why would they have to be prophets to all nations?

Hosea 12
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
So this sounds like a denunciation of some dude name Ephraim who became rich using scales calibrated in his favor, made a treaty with Assyria, trades with Egypt, and by the way, the people who live in Gilead really suck, they sacrifice bulls! About the only part I can see related to abortion is that Gilead grabbed his brother's heel while in the womb (I assume they are twins, else this gets really crazy), but it comes in this long stream of insults, kind of like calling him a motherfucker even if not literally true. I don't really some much on topic here -- it's just a big long insult and people say all kinds of shit when insulting people.

I'm not religious, but curiosity got the best of me so looked up all your citations and I just don't see it:

Luke 1:41-44:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
We all know Mary has a magic fetus, and the fact that it's nearness to another fetus, which jumps in the womb in response, seems a special case. Most fetuses aren't exposed to gods.

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. That seems pretty thin, especially when the writer near the end talks about how god doesn't care about burnt offerings, and then four lines later about all the burnt offerings he is going to give god. If sex is a sin, so are the products of it. Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Psalm 139:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
This one seems basically at odds with 51 which decried conception as a dirty nasty sin. Now we're hearing how the writer was "knit together in my mother's womb" and how awesome god is at knitting. When does a ball of yarn become a sweater? That isn't answered here. Is a partially completed garment the same as the marvelous completed garment? That isn't answered here either. What is jarring though, is that right after explaining how god is the uber-knitter, he goes into talking about how much he wished god would help him kill and destroy all his enemies. Psychotic.

Jeremiah 1:5
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
Sounds like god is talking to a specific person who will be a prophet to all nations. I'm guessing Jeremiah was that dude? Is there any evidence that all people in all times and places were getting this special attention from god, to be prophets to each other? If they all know the same stuff -- why would they have to be prophets to all nations?

Hosea 12
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
So this sounds like a denunciation of some dude name Ephraim who became rich using scales calibrated in his favor, made a treaty with Assyria, trades with Egypt, and by the way, the people who live in Gilead really suck, they sacrifice bulls! About the only part I can see related to abortion is that Gilead grabbed his brother's heel while in the womb (I assume they are twins, else this gets really crazy), but it comes in this long stream of insults, kind of like calling him a motherfucker even if not literally true. I don't really some much on topic here -- it's just a big long insult and people say all kinds of shit when insulting people.

I'm not religious, but curiosity got the best of me so looked up all your citations and I just don't see it:

Luke 1:41-44:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
We all know Mary has a magic fetus, and the fact that it's nearness to another fetus, which jumps in the womb in response, seems a special case. Most fetuses aren't exposed to gods.

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. That seems pretty thin, especially when the writer near the end talks about how god doesn't care about burnt offerings, and then four lines later about all the burnt offerings he is going to give god. If sex is a sin, so are the products of it. Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Psalm 139:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
This one seems basically at odds with 51 which decried conception as a dirty nasty sin. Now we're hearing how the writer was "knit together in my mother's womb" and how awesome god is at knitting. When does a ball of yarn become a sweater? That isn't answered here. Is a partially completed garment the same as the marvelous completed garment? That isn't answered here either. What is jarring though, is that right after explaining how god is the uber-knitter, he goes into talking about how much he wished god would help him kill and destroy all his enemies. Psychotic.

Jeremiah 1:5
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
Sounds like god is talking to a specific person who will be a prophet to all nations. I'm guessing Jeremiah was that dude? Is there any evidence that all people in all times and places were getting this special attention from god, to be prophets to each other? If they all know the same stuff -- why would they have to be prophets to all nations?

Hosea 12
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
So this sounds like a denunciation of some dude name Ephraim who became rich using scales calibrated in his favor, made a treaty with Assyria, trades with Egypt, and by the way, the people who live in Gilead really suck, they sacrifice bulls! About the only part I can see related to abortion is that Gilead grabbed his brother's heel while in the womb (I assume they are twins, else this gets really crazy), but it comes in this long stream of insults, kind of like calling him a motherfucker even if not literally true. I don't really some much on topic here -- it's just a big long insult and people say all kinds of shit when insulting people.

I'm not religious, but curiosity got the best of me so looked up all your citations and I just don't see it:

Luke 1:41-44:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
We all know Mary has a magic fetus, and the fact that it's nearness to another fetus, which jumps in the womb in response, seems a special case. Most fetuses aren't exposed to gods.

Psalm 51:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
"Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin" -- so sex is a sin that sets in motion a chain of events that leads to people. That seems pretty thin, especially when the writer near the end talks about how god doesn't care about burnt offerings, and then four lines later about all the burnt offerings he is going to give god. If sex is a sin, so are the products of it. Doing an abortion would be a corrective action and should have god's support.

Psalm 139:
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
This one seems basically at odds with 51 which decried conception as a dirty nasty sin. Now we're hearing how the writer was "knit together in my mother's womb" and how awesome god is at knitting. When does a ball of yarn become a sweater? That isn't answered here. Is a partially completed garment the same as the marvelous completed garment? That isn't answered here either. What is jarring though, is that right after explaining how god is the uber-knitter, he goes into talking about how much he wished god would help him kill and destroy all his enemies. Psychotic.

Jeremiah 1:5
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
Sounds like god is talking to a specific person who will be a prophet to all nations. I'm guessing Jeremiah was that dude? Is there any evidence that all people in all times and places were getting this special attention from god, to be prophets to each other? If they all know the same stuff -- why would they have to be prophets to all nations?

Hosea 12
https://www.biblegateway.com/p...
So this sounds like a denunciation of some dude name Ephraim who became rich using scales calibrated in his favor, made a treaty with Assyria, trades with Egypt, and by the way, the people who live in Gilead really suck, they sacrifice bulls! About the only part I can see related to abortion is that Gilead grabbed his brother's heel while in the womb (I assume they are twins, else this gets really crazy), but it comes in this long stream of insults, kind of like calling him a motherfucker even if not literally true. I don't really some much on topic here -- it's just a big long insult and people say all kinds of shit when insulting people.