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Company Testing Standardized Salaries Is Struggling

jmcbain writes: In April 2015, Dan Price, the CEO of online payments company Gravity Payments based in Seattle, announced that all employees would have their salary bumped up to a minimum $70,000. Slashdot covered this news. Since that time, however, things have not gone well. Some employees quit because they felt it was unfair to double the pay of some new hires while the longest-serving staff members got small or no raises. Furthermore, after reducing his own salary from $1M to $70K, Mr. Price is now renting a house 'to make ends meet'. On an unrelated note, Mr. Price's brother, who is a co-founder of the company, is suing him.

480 comments

  1. Ha! by enigma32 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Imagine that.

    Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

    1. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just don't let anybody from the occupy movement hear that, or else they'll give you an earful about how they deserve both:

      1) A high paying job because dammit, they're human beings, and they deserve it!
      2) Low price rent in a high cost, high demand, area. Because again, being human and having feelings means they deserve it.

    2. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, those progressives up in Seattle sure are *special*.

    3. Re:Ha! by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really. In the military, for example, no matter what your speciality is, you are paid the same. Based upon rank, time in service and time in grade.

      I think that he went about it in the wrong way. Not that the core concept is flawed.

    4. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your rights end where my feelings begin! We are the 1% representing what we believe to be the 99%!

    5. Re:Ha! by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Almost, there are some extra pay/bonuses for certain things.

    6. Re:Ha! by cirby · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...except that's not actually true.

      For example, there's been the long-running practice of reenlistment bonuses. Different jobs get much higher bonuses for reenlisting.

      The base pay may be the same, but the difference between, say, a low-ranking cook and a low-ranking nuclear weapons technician is pretty startling when that bonus is calculated. As in "tens of thousands of dollars."

    7. Re:Ha! by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really. In the military, for example, no matter what your speciality is, you are paid the same. Based upon rank, time in service and time in grade.

      And this company is doing the equivalent of paying a private on his first day the same as a Colonel who's been in the army for ten years.

      Who could have guessed that would cause problems?

    8. Re:Ha! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Not really. In the military, for example, no matter what your speciality is, you are paid the same.

      Except for the generous re-enlistment and retention bonuses that are paid based on specialty. As a grunt, I never qualified for any bonuses, despite being an expert at using my entrenching tool.

    9. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And limitless greed and envy is the only thing that makes capitalism work.

    10. Re: Ha! by Locando · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to have lost track of the topic of the article, which was that a CEO himself raised the wages of his lowest-paid employees. Are you saying there's something entitled about his running a business according to his values? Or do you actually have a problem with his values but are too... something (insecure? incapable?) to actually mount a coherent moral argument against them?

      The housing price stuff is a related but separate issue. Lots of NIMBYs causing that issue are otherwise quite conservative. And there are at least a few on the left with supply solutions to the problem caused by demand. (Or we could of course go the route of public housing with standardized, non-market-based prices, but something tells me you wouldn't be a fan of that bit of hard-nosed realism.)

    11. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      I'm confused. Other than the very vague claim that they're struggling what is the actual problem? OK, some employees were butthurt. Yes, he had to adjust his lifestyle to match his reduced salary but other than being sued by his brother for paying himself too much prior to the 70k move how is the company struggling?

    12. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it is. People in the military are there because they wish on some level to serve their country and given the pay and potential hazards they are definitely doing it out of self sacrifice to varying degrees. Okay, some might be doing it because they come from very poor socioeconomic backgrounds and they realize the military will likely give them opportunities that are otherwise outside their reach. Either way there not there for just a simple paycheck because the military was the place that pays the most.

    13. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 0

      No.

    14. Re: Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 0, Troll

      the point is this man did what all those noisy people have been demanding...and its backfired

      so all of us who dont think people should get 15 bucks for flipping burgers can point to this as an example of why its not a good idea

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    15. Re: Ha! by iconeternal · · Score: 3, Informative

      He just wanted to take a cheap shot. Occupy was about the system being corrupt, nobody was demanding the communist utopia he's implying.

    16. Re:Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative

      people are leaving because they dont feel valued when someone who just got hired is making as much as them, having been there for 10 years.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    17. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The World owes me a living.

      I graduated with a degree.

      I did my part.

    18. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...except that's not actually true.

      For example, there's been the long-running practice of reenlistment bonuses. Different jobs get much higher bonuses for reenlisting.

      The base pay may be the same, but the difference between, say, a low-ranking cook and a low-ranking nuclear weapons technician is pretty startling when that bonus is calculated. As in "tens of thousands of dollars."

      It's not just re-enlistment bonuses. Some people get additional pay every month or year depending on their job. To cherrypick an extreme example, the military doctor who happens to hold O4 or O5 rank makes tens of thousands (if not $100K) more than the average line officer of similar rank.

    19. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 0, Troll

      people are leaving because they dont feel valued when someone who just got hired is making as much as them, having been there for 10 years.

      So what? There's lots of people looking for work and with high minimum salaries the chances of attracting someone talented just out of college is much higher. If anything it's a great way to keep fresh talent moving in while sloughing off the older chaff.

    20. Re:Ha! by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

      Ignoring people's basic sense of fairness (he's got half my skills, but earns just as much) is something that tends to make capitalism difficult.

    21. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I don't think there was a single unified message of the occupy movement. Either way, "nobody" is too broad. I saw more than a few signs and videos of communist utopia

    22. Re:Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      ifi were a college dropout id be happy to get that job

      If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    23. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      And nothing about this company's practices contradict that - he increased the minimum salary to $70K, he didn't cap it. And in the end, for all the hoopla, only 2 employees, out of 120, rage quit. The other 118 employees thought the new minimum salary levels were just fine.

      For all we know, those two were going to job hop anyway. That happens a lot in the industry in case you haven't noticed.

    24. Re:Ha! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I turned down a tech support job because a co-worker was still there and making the same amount of money I did when we worked together ten years ago. Because I did contract work for numerous Fortune 500 companies over the last decade, the company offered to rehire me for 80% more money than the coworker. Those 2% raises for staying in one position don't amount to much.

    25. Re:Ha! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      And limitless greed and envy is the only thing that makes capitalism work.

      Greed is the reason capitalism works.
      Greed is the reason socialism fails.

    26. Re:Ha! by waynemcdougall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      No. This is a common mistake. It is wrong.

      Differences in pay exist because of supply and demand. If there are many people willing to do your job, then pay for that job will be low, even if your job is valuable (see nursing, teaching, etc). Yes, many jobs we "value" are highly-paid (but not all). But that is because there is greater demand (or less supply) for people to fill those jobs.

      In short, do not confuse correlation (high value jobs have high pay) with causation (we do NOT give high pay to people with high value jobs because we value the jobs).

      We pay people what we need to pay in order to find someone to do the job. That is the "value" of the job - as an economic valuation. Do not confuse that with the moral worth of the job. Or its intrinsic value to the employer.

      --
      Recycle PCs and build a wireless community network www.hillsborough.org.nz
    27. Re:Ha! by cirby · · Score: 1

      Like most of the military, you mean?

      The United States military has a much higher average level of education than the country at large - 93% of enlisted have at least a high school diploma.

    28. Re: Ha! by fey000 · · Score: 1

      The World owes me a living.

      I graduated with a degree.

      I did my part.

      Would that be a degree in women's studies by any chance?

    29. Re: Ha! by goosesensor · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm with you on #2. I'm tired of seeing whiny middle-age women complaining about not being able to live in one of the best cities in the world because "Google".

    30. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Are you saying there's something entitled about his running a business according to his values?

      If it's a stereotypical corporation, falling under articles of incorporation with a board, et cetera...

      Quite possibly, fuck yes, there's something hugely entitled about it. You do not get to just do whatever the fuck you please in such a situation.

      Thus the reason a co-founder is suing him.

    31. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What precisely do you think drives demand for labor if not the value of the labor to the employer?

    32. Re:Ha! by geoskd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      Why? Nobody except the CEO took a pay cut. In fact everyone got at least a small raise. These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change? Thats just retarded, mean and more than a little childish. I could see if they had been given a paycut, but they were in no way affected except that someone they work with got a windfall. If you weren't getting a fair wage, then why were you still working there? If you were getting a fair wage then GROW UP.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    33. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just don't let anybody from the occupy movement hear that, or else they'll give you an earful about how they deserve both:

      Everything that happens in the world happens because of some combination of random chance and the laws of physics. Free will is fundamentally an illusion. There is no "deserve". But we do nonetheless experience both pleasure and pain.

      We can hope that the laws of physics and random chance will eventually cause us to create a global society with minimal suffering where most people are able to live simple comfortable lives. We can hope that our current world, where 20,000 children die of poverty every day, will eventually be a distant ugly memory.

      But the laws of physics are a harsh mistress so our hopes may very well be in vain.

    34. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      ifi were a college dropout id be happy to get that job

        If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      College degrees aren't worth much these days. The college profit factories simply turn out too many. Take teachers college + BA, there are 2/3rds more degrees issued per year than positions that open up in my province. This has driven salaries down. Very few degrees equate to a salary bump unless you've got something very specialized/PHD/etc. Although PHDs work against you in some fields. A college degree will help you get in the door, it might give you some specialized knowledge, and maybe some confidence but not much else.

      At the end of the day though, you're making what you were making before, it's likely the same you'll make at another company. You were, presumably, happy making it before the change and if you were working for another company so it's entirely about what others are making. Why do you feel the need to be "superior" to those in "lesser" positions? Why are they less deserving of a living wage than you? I mean, prior to it all of the money was going to a single person - why aren't people butthurt about that?

    35. Re: Ha! by onkelonkel · · Score: 2

      Art History. I couldn't get into Women's Studies - 2 year waitlist!

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    36. Re:Ha! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Evidently the replacements aren't worth their salt is what.

      I heard an interview with the guy a few days ago and he said that the skilled people are leaving and new highers- even ones who appear over talented, stop performing shortly after being hired and he's had to apply additional staff to get things done. He said he doesn't ever remember working as hard as he is now trying to pick up the slack before this move.

    37. Re: Ha! by peragrin · · Score: 2

      He is struggling personally. Apparently he couldn't down size his life. Like his pay. Many rich people can't live as normal folk. See Hillary Clinton being dead broke.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    38. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      how cute. someone who still thinks that capitalism WORKS.

      It's rather obvious that capitalism works.

      hint: we're melting down in the US, the middle class is being attacked and destroyed, the upper classes accumulate more and more of the world's wealth and most of us will NEVER be able to retire.

      I find it bizarre how people can intentionally break a capitalist system and then complain that capitalism isn't working for them. Don't break it, if you don't like the consequences.

      Here, the problem is that the US has been aggressive interfering with business creation and employment while expending huge amounts of public resources on the largest businesses. Meanwhile, you and a lot of other people continue to ignore the elephant in the room - foreign labor competition that is a fraction of the US's labor cost. There needs to be something differentiating US labor as being more valuable than say, Chinese labor, or else businesses and economic power will shift elsewhere while US labor continues to decline in wages.

      Further, the same can't be said of the rest of the world which has been doing just fine with massive middle class creation and collecting more and more of the world's wealth in the hands of the majority of its citizens.

      so, telll me again how greed makes things all sunshine and rainbows?

      So tell me again, what works better? Or even works at all?

    39. Re:Ha! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      And some people feel they deserve more pay than others, regardless of whether that's actually true. Don't underestimate the power of "ego".

      Why, actually, does it matter to one person what another gets paid? If *you* are getting paid a fair wage for your efforts and can live the life you want/need to live, why does anything else matter? It's not a contest of whoever has the most wins.

      Personally, I make more than I need. I have deferred raises in favor of my teammates who need the extra money more. I have volunteered to take time off w/o pay, when the work load permits, to prevent teammates from being laid off. They have families and bills, my wife died in 2006 and I'm debt free. In the past 9.5 years, I've given about $100k to friends who were in trouble, through (almost) no fault of their own or who needed something extra to pursue bettering themselves. They didn't ask for help and were willing/trying to make it on their own -- I could help so I did.

      I have also had a few comments about my behavior. A few years ago, when I volunteered to reduce my hours to reduce the impact of a budget shortfall on my teammates, because I could live on less money, one of my manager's managers remarked that I could keep working and give him the extra money I didn't need. I replied that would be happy to give him *all* my money, if he'd give me my wife back. (Haven't heard from him since.)

      According to a NYT article, Dan Price bumped the salaries of his employees when he learned that many people were having trouble making ends meet on their salaries and decided to pay them a more livable salary. Some of his other employees got ticked off because of what they think people *deserve* to be paid.

      Some CEOs make 100-300 times what their lowest-paid employee makes. Based on the CEOs you know or know about is that right? Perhaps we'd all be better off if people concerned themselves less on what they *can* earn and more on what they need to earn and about the benefit of their teammates and, if you're in management, the benefit of the company as a whole. Employees that feel valued -- really valued, not that "employees are our most valuable asset" bullshit -- and secure are often better employees as they have less to fear and worry about.

      I will be writing Dan an actual snail-mail letter commending him on his actions and wishing him the best.

      Remember Sue...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    40. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      That's a management/HR failure to me. If someone is significantly under performing like that they get the boot and quickly.

    41. Re: Ha! by JDAustin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yea, they were. I had deal w/ the Occupy smell on almost a daily basis in Oakland. The hammer and sickle was a very common sign then.

    42. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change?

      Here's a protip: when only some people get the "fair shake", then it's not a fair shake.

    43. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't make them qualified to get into a four-year school.

    44. Re:Ha! by nanoflower · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what he hoped to accomplish. I could see normalizing pay for each job so that all the secretaries got one amount, the entry level developers got another and the senior developers got another amount. Then you might change the distribution so that the difference between the secretary's pay and the CEO's is say 10-20 times instead of the 100 or more than we see in many big corporations. Any or all of those changes might have worked out but to put everyone regardless of their job on the same pay grade just doesn't make sense.

    45. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason for market regulations that have been enacted to date is that capitalism doesn't work.

      Unregulated airlines or other businesses would be cheap but not necessarily safe.

    46. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason 20,000 children die every day is because the world is a comfortable and easy place to live compared to what it was in the past. The number will get higher and higher because there is no downward pressure on increasing population. The only major predator is other people. Deaths from common diseases will be limited by better health care. That leaves food and water as the only major limit to population growth.

    47. Re: Ha! by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or do you actually have a problem with his values but are too... something (insecure? incapable?) to actually mount a coherent moral argument against them?

      What "moral values" would that be? Destroying a company that a lot of people worked hard to build, just in order to feed his own ego? Of course, if he owns the company, it's his right to destroy it. That doesn't make it a moral thing to do.

      Or we could of course go the route of public housing with standardized, non-market-based prices, but something tells me you wouldn't be a fan of that bit of hard-nosed realism

      You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... With decades-long waiting lists for even getting one of those drafty, cramped, noisy apartments? Thanks, I'll take US-style capitalism over your "hard-nosed realism" any day.

    48. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's rather obvious that capitalism works.

      Where in the fucking world is there an example of that? If you say the US, I'm going to punch you right in your government monopoly covered mouth.

    49. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He seriously underestimated the selfishness of his employees. He's a giving person, so he didn't expect this.

    50. Re:Ha! by mrprogrammerman · · Score: 1

      I am not sure where $70K isn't livable. However, I think the best way to be fair about pay is to have it be objective based on experience and qualifications.

    51. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't understand what he hoped to accomplish. I could see normalizing pay for each job so that all the secretaries got one amount, the entry level developers got another and the senior developers got another amount. Then you might change the distribution so that the difference between the secretary's pay and the CEO's is say 10-20 times instead of the 100 or more than we see in many big corporations. Any or all of those changes might have worked out but to put everyone regardless of their job on the same pay grade just doesn't make sense.

      Its a mutation of the equal pay for equal work dream. Problem is, you simply do not get equal work out of people. You just don't.

      I was one of two of the highest paid workers in my department. The reason was that we produced. We'd work extra as needed, and when the suits brought work to us, they knew it would be finished on time, and would be well done.

      Not quite teh same with the others. Some would do meh work to meet the deadline, some just did enough to keep from getting fired. a rae few even less (which got them fired)

      The problem with the concept of every person in Job A getting the same amount of money is simple. If my industrious coworker and I were to recieve the same pay as the person who barely produces, we would adjust our output accordingly - or more likely, since we were both self-driven, we'd go to another place, and they would eventually be left with the worst employees.

      Its the old saying - if you want high quality hay, you have to be prepared to pay a good price. If you are content with hay that has already been through the horse - that comes cheaper.

      This in no way addresses the weird world of CEO pay.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    52. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      people are leaving because they dont feel valued when someone who just got hired is making as much as them, having been there for 10 years.

      So what? There's lots of people looking for work and with high minimum salaries the chances of attracting someone talented just out of college is much higher. If anything it's a great way to keep fresh talent moving in while sloughing off the older chaff.

      Ah, the churn theory. Good luck with that.

      So you are saying that you can outcompete a company full of experienced experts. with fresh college graduates, ? Oh man, that is hilarious.

      And by the way, after putting in over thirty years, I can tell you that talent means not a whole lot. I had to shitcan the most talented guy that ever worked for me. Did beautiful work, but never met a deadline, and couldn't get him to put in 40 hours.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    53. Re:Ha! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Lol.. Sure it is. And sure they should be booted. Eventually, you will run out of potential workers when it seems to be every new hire though.

    54. Re: Ha! by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Socialism doesn't work because people are NOT equal in ability or utility to an organization. Equalizing the payoff for everyone just disenfranchises those who end up doing the majority of the work. The real question is how much more of society are we going to ruin in vain attempts to disprove that. Sure he can run his own company any way he likes (assuming no shareholders), but it sounds like his attempt at social 'justice' isn't going any better than others have. It just builds resentment and infighting.

      Too much price fixing ends up damaging other companies providing prereq goods and services. Then the state has to step in to 'save' them as well. Eventually the whole 'market' is centralized and dictated by politics and feelings of a ruling class rather than the realities of cost and consumer demand. Then it rots away eg: the Soviet Union.

    55. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      Why? Nobody except the CEO took a pay cut. In fact everyone got at least a small raise. These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change? Thats just retarded, mean and more than a little childish.

      What it is, is telling the more experienced and productive people that there s no need for them to be any more productive than the newest or lest productive people.

      You don't at all understand the drivers of productive people. Usually self driven, they are also perceptive. A situation where the biggest fuckoff who takes a dozen ciggy breaks a day, and takes off every sick day he earns and comes in late every day and leaves early, and for all that, is making the same as the guy who get's his work donnie, done well, and a high percentage of the time, picks up the slack for the slacker - well, we don't like that very much. We're driven, so we'll take up that slack. But if we're not compensated for our production, we'll likely go some other place.

      Myself and one coworker made a lot more than every other person in the department. There was a reason for that. The suits thought we were worth it. They wanted to keep us.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    56. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      That's a management/HR failure to me. If someone is significantly under performing like that they get the boot and quickly.

      Completely non real world response. Mabe you shouold tell management how to do their stuff.

      Everyone making the same pay just does not work. That you don't understand that means simply that you don't understand that.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    57. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What precisely do you think drives demand for labor if not the value of the labor to the employer?

      The point you're missing is that the price of labor (wages) is determined by both supply and demand. A company may have an absolute need to deliver it's product (high "demand"). But if lots of people have the skills and desire to be delivery drivers then the wages for delivery drivers are going to be low.

      More broadly, though, a company's demand for labor is going to be determined by demand for its product. If most of the world's wealth and resources are controlled by a small number of rich people who really like designer handbags, then the "value" of handbag design labor will be very high. Even if ordinary people would derive more benefit from scientific discovery to reduce infectious disease, in such a world, handbag designers will earn more money than research scientists.

    58. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      No. This is a common mistake. It is wrong.

      But the people performaing those specific functions do it at different levels of competency and productivity.

      I was paid more than the others in my department because I could perform at a higher level.

      Same with my wife in her field.

      If we weren't compensated for that, we'd go some place where we were compensated for it.

      Which does sound like supply and demand. Only the supply of highly proficient professionals is smaller, it's also more lucrative.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    59. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Why, actually, does it matter to one person what another gets paid? If *you* are getting paid a fair wage for your efforts and can live the life you want/need to live, why does anything else matter? It's not a contest of whoever has the most wins.

      The problem with people who perform at a high level is that part of that performance is reflected in their pay. Part of the company's valuation of the employee is reflected in that pay.

      Or to look at it another way, in a situation where the worst employee is making the same money as the best ones, it tells the eomployees that the worst one is just as valuable to teh company as the best one.

      This just doesn't work. People have some competitive drive. Some compete to to the best job, and expect to get better pay. Others might compete to see who can do the least they can do and still get paid.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    60. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've clearly never managed people, or if you have you weren't very good at it. While that makes logical sense, it fails to account for people's egos and sense of self worth and the metrics by which people define self worth.

      Everyone works. If one person's work is more valuable to the company, they should get more pay; you incentivize that person for their efforts and value add. If you raise the pay of another person who is not a hard worker and don't raise the pay of someone who is a hard worker, the hard worker will be demoralized because their greater value add is not rewarded with corresponding rewards whereas the less hard worker's life gets better.

      People do not value salary numbers alone. They value salary numbers but also a sense of progression; that there is a clear pathway that their hard work will result in greater rewards to themselves. What this guy did was say that all employees are equal regardless of level of effort or value add. Game theory and economics suggests that the result is you would lose your best workers because there is nothing to incentivize hard work, so they will go somewhere else where good work is rewarded, whereas your least valuable employees will stay with the company because they are rewarded regardless of level of effort; the culture of the company rewards lack of effort and as such they are incentivized to stay and be valueless.

    61. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You don't at all understand the drivers of productive people.

      Different people are different- even "productive" people.

      Personally, I'm paid over six figures and have just had my contract renewed for another three years. But I'm also starting to look for other work because my current job doesn't give me the intellectual freedom to do meaningful work.

      And the reason I'm not allowed to do meaningful work is, ironically, because my boss is paid too much. My boss is nearing retirement and is paid enough to be putting away about half a million a year (after taxes) for retirement. Sure, my boss knows that top management is forcing us to work on a totally bogus project. But, if my boss can just hang on for a few more years by faking some "progress" to top management, then my boss can retire to a comfortable life of enjoying extended family in Eastern Europe with millions in the bank.

      When it comes to my own motivation, believing in my work is orders of magnitude more important than petty disagreements about wages.

    62. Re:Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      the other issue everyone here seems to be overlooking is that by raising the pay of the bottom, and not raising the pay of those closer to the new bottom, it hurts them the most because the costs of general goods will go up.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    63. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      In a rather simplistic company like credit card payments, absolutely. You don't need huge amounts of skill, you don't even need that much talent outside of your security/fraud detection, you just need basic competence and work ethic. The management needs to fire some people to get the word out that these jobs are coveted due to their high starting pay and that the harder working people will get to keep their jobs.

    64. Re: Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      someone wanna explain why/how this is a troll post and not just a reply to OP???

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    65. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Everyone doesn't make the same pay, just that the minimum pay is $70k. There are still 100k+ developers.

    66. Re:Ha! by mysidia · · Score: 1

      hint: we're melting down in the US, the middle class is being attacked and destroyed, the upper classes accumulate more and more of the world's wealth and most of us will NEVER be able to retire.

      This is not because of capitalism. This is partly because of the federal reserve And partly due to our government going on a spending binge and over-interfering with industry, and in particular: free enterprise.

      Big business leverages lobbyists and government regulations to help shut out free enterprise and competition by making everyone have to comply with expensive regulations and hire expensive lawyers, And that's not capitalism.

    67. Re:Ha! by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...except that's not actually true.

      For example, there's been the long-running practice of reenlistment bonuses. Different jobs get much higher bonuses for reenlisting.

      The base pay may be the same, but the difference between, say, a low-ranking cook and a low-ranking nuclear weapons technician is pretty startling when that bonus is calculated. As in "tens of thousands of dollars."

      There is also extra pay for various specific skills. Some of them cut across job categories, for example you get more pay if you speak another language. Others are specific to the job; electronics techs get extra pay, medical personnel get extra pay, etc. People in high-skill jobs tend to get promoted faster and therefore be higher in rank than those in low skill jobs, which also boosts their pay.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    68. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      The cost of general goods will not change by raising the wage of 100 people in a city of millions.

    69. Re:Ha! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      Or to look at it another way, in a situation where the worst employee is making the same money as the best ones, it tells the eomployees that the worst one is just as valuable to teh company as the best one.

      Perhaps, but in this case, Dan cut his salary and took that money to bump the salary floor to something actually livable. He wasn't comparing the worth of employees, just increasing the minimum - again, with his own money. He did this so those employees at the bottom could afford to live and work.

      When I worked at the NY Times, our manager did a salary survey on the 4 senior admin staff (this included me with more experience than the other three - combined) -- 2 Unix admins (one was me) and 2 Oracle database admins -- and then bumped all our salaries to be the same. One DB admin got a $12k raise and I got a $2k raise. I was happy for the other admins, especially as one was otherwise considering leaving for more pay. In this case, the salaries were based on market factors, in the Gravity Payments case, it seems to be based on living-wage factors for that area. Sure not exactly apples to apples, but I didn't feel my worth was slighted by the other's pay.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    70. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Recognizing people's basic sense of unfairness (he's got half my skills, but because he's handsome, he's not fired), is something that tends to make reality difficult.

    71. Re:Ha! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That's the theory with perfect capitalism. Then it hits crony capitalism and the people in the cash collection side and their relatives in sinecures scoop up the money before the people on the product design/supply/construction/delivery/etc side of the org get to see it.

    72. Re: Ha! by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      That hammer & sickle pretty common in every protest/march/parade in SoCal. Funny enough Occupy was working fine until it was co-opted, and the progressive stack happened. The things you learn when you research, and I'm still against the idea of it much like I was when it started up.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    73. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just don't let anybody from the occupy movement hear that, or else they'll give you an earful about how they deserve both:

      1) A high paying job because dammit, they're human beings, and they deserve it!
      2) Low price rent in a high cost, high demand, area. Because again, being human and having feelings means they deserve it.

      And then they'll tweet about it on their iPhone while waiting in line at Starbucks.

    74. Re: Ha! by jobdrb · · Score: 1

      Paying discussions are very complex, although its not fair who are more productive or creative have better gains, which almost a common sense. The word Merit, may have many means. Be more "friendly", with managers, be a relative to the boss. Or be an asshole. Let all has a minimum paycheck is good thing to support a life where the company are. But, let all ha the same, its really nonsense. There many ways to have a better mix of pay and result, but, standardization line, does not work. While high competitive are also bad, since mostly works need cooperation. And cooperation gets better results. Its like in Sports, non cooperative teams its very difficult to wins.

    75. Re:Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      this one company? no of course not you are correct. but extrapolate that to what many who have no grasp on how economics work want and it would be a disaster

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    76. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say on your nice computer, over broadband, while satellites and aircraft carriers protect your ability to be completely fucking wrong.

      You stupid motherfucker.

    77. Re: Ha! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The World owes me a living.

      I graduated with a degree.

      I did my part.

      Would that be a degree in women's studies by any chance?

      The use of a non-technical degree to employers is that it demonstrates that the graduate can RTFM, think about it's contents and write something to prove that they have done so. It's as good a choice in an office environment as most others and probably better than most in a HR or managerial role.

      Remember that while you are laughing at the women's studies graduates that there are engineers, lawyers and doctors that are laughing at you and maybe took some CS subjects as the "soft" option when they needed to get credit outside the focus of their degree.

    78. Re: Ha! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      A lot of stuff in the military effectively IS a four year school. Training is most of what they do.

    79. Re:Ha! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what he hoped to accomplish

      IMHO - either it was set up to fail to make some silly political point, it was not planned well or cocaine use was involved.

    80. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So let me get this straight. Because other people were getting more money, they threw a tamper tantrum. Even though they themselves got more money as well. And moreover, the reason for this temper tantrum was that the people who got more extra money were less senior, which isn't their fault in any way. Wow.

      Though I must admit it takes guts to use the word ‘fair’ to defend such a selfish attitude.

    81. Re:Ha! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      this one company? no of course not you are correct. but extrapolate that to what many who have no grasp on how economics work want and it would be a disaster

      Increasing the minimum wage is one of the most effective tools for increasing prosperity but like anything in the economy it has a tipping point. Increase it too much and you get hyper-inflation, economic stagnation, & kill growth. Increase it too little and you get economic stagnation, kill growth, and send your people into poverty.

    82. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well with regard to point 2, I don't see why these guys just move to a lower cost area. Every time I mention it to them, they babble something like they have the "right" to live there. For reference, $1094 a month's rent gets me:

      1) 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, living room, big kitchen, total 781 square feet, single floor unit and located on the first floor.
      2) Two very large swimming pools (one of them has a beach style entry and sand pits) spa, gas powered grills that are free to use, cabanas, outdoor TVs.
      3) Gated community, with a unique gate code per unit, and a remote for the gate so no reason to stop and reach for the number pad when you drive in
      4) Trash butler who comes to my front porch and picks up my trash
      5) Keyless entry to the pools (uses an NFC fob)
      6) Same day service when I something breaks (for example, I called to complain that my AC was too loud, and somebody fixed it a few hours later. Dishwasher wasn't working, fixed the next morning.)
      7) Fiber internet (max tier is gig)
      8) Total cost for electricity and gas ends up being another $110 a month during the summer. Since this is in Arizona, heating costs are minimal during the winter.
      9) Fitness center, with free gym classes.
      10) Nice mountain view, and lots of nice places to eat and shop are within walking distance.

      And yes, the figure I quoted above includes all of the amenities and taxes. At the start of the month, that's the exact amount I pay.

      Tell me how much something like that costs in San Francisco or New York.

    83. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to put down any of the engineering or comm specialists In the military, but this is why most of the top experts and engineers are contractors, or become defense contractors later on.

    84. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The second part your post goes into idiotic and irrelevant conjecture, so I'll address the first part.

      Please provide an example of an economic system that has actually worked 100%.

      Human nature means we will never have a permanent utopia. The corrupt always float to the top of any society and screw it up. Why? Because convincing liars make the ideal candidates for positions of power. The ability to manipulate people into feeling what you want them to feel (and therefor think what they want you to think) is a huge advantage.

      And people that have that skill set WILL use it.

      So next time we have a candidate that "just doesn't seem very political/presidential," try to consider that ought to count as a positive, not a negative.

    85. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if an underperforming workmate that was always making more work for you and slacking off got bumped to the same salary as you, it wouldn't bother you at all? Bullshit.

      Your work seems a lot less fulfilling when the company places someone that slacks odd and does half the work at the same level and effectively says "you are no more valuable to this company than the other guy."

      People in actual careers want to differentiate themselves, and they want their efforts to be recognized. You can deny it all you want, but it is human nature.

    86. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      Why? Nobody except the CEO took a pay cut. In fact everyone got at least a small raise. These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change? Thats just retarded, mean and more than a little childish. I could see if they had been given a paycut, but they were in no way affected except that someone they work with got a windfall. If you weren't getting a fair wage, then why were you still working there? If you were getting a fair wage then GROW UP.

      Excellent, so if I'm one of the original people in the company, there from when it was started, earning $70K/yr after putting in a couple years of 60-80hr work weeks to help get things rolling, I'm gonna watch the person that got hired 3mo's ago, "works" 8hrs a day mostly around the "water cooler" and texting their friends on the phone 1/2 the day, etc, suddenly get a raise to my same pay level... ... and maybe I'm still working 60hrs every week, getting paid salary of course, and now... well, F**K that, I'm coming in and working exactly 8hr days from now on, and toning my work effort down so I can hang around the water cooler and text friends 1/2 the day too, and if stuff doesn't get done, well, then they can hire someone else to help out at - oh yeah - *another* $70K/yr, who might come in gung-ho and then also realize they're not getting anything more for working twice as hard as the person next to them... in fact, with more people we can all slack off more right? No point in working hard when I get paid the same as everyone else no matter how hard I work...

    87. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a management/HR failure to me. If someone is significantly under performing like that they get the boot and quickly.

      Completely non real world response. Mabe you shouold tell management how to do their stuff.

      Everyone making the same pay just does not work. That you don't understand that means simply that you don't understand that.

      Oh man, that means all kinds of paperwork and actually doing your job... screw that, I can just 'significantly underperform' and get paid the same as everyone else anyways, HR is "just my job" right? I can just "significantly underperform" along with everyone else, still get paid the same, and not worry about all that stuff about complying with state labor laws, writing them up so we have "justification" for getting rid of them, etc. That stuff is so much work I don't have to do anymore to make just as much as everyone else.

    88. Re:Ha! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The company is not doing poorly, either. The headline is wrong (big surprise). Some of their customers left, but they got many new customers as a result of the policy. In net, they have a much larger customer base.

      Since the nature of their business is that new customers don't bring in revenue immediately, they are having temporary cash flow issues. That will be resolved by the end of the year, though, and their financials will be very nice.

      I don't know about the lawsuit from the brother, though. Broken family.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    89. Re:Ha! by Martin+Spamer · · Score: 1

      Spot on, the number self proclaimed libertarians who are ignorant of basic economics is staggering example of the Dunning Kruger effect at work.

    90. Re:Ha! by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      The $70k/year figure coincides with a scientific study about happiness.

    91. Re:Ha! by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      A situation where the biggest fuckoff who takes a dozen ciggy breaks a day, and takes off every sick day he earns and comes in late every day and leaves early

      Not having to listen to that guy complain about being underpaid or a dozen other things -- priceless.

    92. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had mod points.
      For once an actually meaningful and intelligent observation.

    93. Re:Ha! by nanoflower · · Score: 1

      Ah, that article states that the MINIMUM salary has been brought up to $70k. That doesn't mean he can't pay valued employees more than that. Just that the base salary is $70k and he cut his own salary to match that.

      That's very different from saying everyone in the company regardless of their job is going to be paid $70k.

    94. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'The suits' don't reward anything but ass kissing. You are at work to fund your life not to please middle management of some company.

    95. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not greed to expect that someone who is great gets paid more than someone who is good.

    96. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only have you misunderstood socialism, you are also claiming that the currently functional socialisms doesn't work.

      Perhaps you are thinking about communism, but then again, an example of when it didn't work is not proof that it can't work.

      Possibility to prove something isn't symmetrical. For example you can never prove that there isn't a God or that there isn't life on Mars, there will always be somewhere you haven't looked.
      Proving that there is a God or that there is life on Mars on the other hand is simple. You just have to find and show.

    97. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having been in the military, let me expand on this.

      Pay is adjusted for time in service. The longer you are in, the higher your pay, even if you are equal in rank.

      The higher your rank, the higher your pay

      Your time in service is not reset upon promotion, a recently promoted person with ten years gets paid what a long ago promoted person with ten years gets paid.

      Some skills warrant a "bonus pay" due to the nature of the skill. Often this bonus pay is rather small, but significant. For example, a Navy Seal had one of the highest bonus pays when I was in, and it was just under $300 per month (admittedly, that was some time ago).

      Soldiers typically receive a hazardous duty pay (small, about $100 per month) if they enter combat zones.

      Generally speaking, rank and time in service is where the bulk of the pay is collected by the bulk of the soldiers. This guy sounds like he didn't do his homework, as a person just hired in makes what his long term employees make. In any case, his pay scale is not based on a military one, rather it seems to be a radical attempt to prove communist ideas work. Who knows, maybe they would in a different setting; but, this CEO obviously didn't do the work to make such a setting occur before he tried the idea.

    98. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People are competitive. They often don't focus on their assets (money or otherwise) but focus on how well the compare to others. Remove that and a lot of people's egos take a bruising. Those bruises to the ego cause a large amount of strife.

      I'm a pretty smart guy, though we might never meet. Someone can come along and be smart too, and it really doesn't hurt me. However, if someone asks me my opinion and then says "I'll go ask Bob, he's a pretty smart guy", I'm prone to become unhappy as I value what I've worked hard to achieve and don't feel good when someone else slights it.

      It's the same for the people who've been at the company for ten years. The see their salary as what they have worked hard to achieve. Once someone with no experience gets the same thing without the ten years of dedication to the company, they feel slighted. In their eyes it devalues their ten years.

      The military does not use pay as a differential. Yes, it is different for people, but it is entirely transparent. I can estimate within $100 the pay of any serviceman in the USA. But the military does differentiate between it's members. The "merit" differentiation is "rank", the "dedication" differentiation is "time in service". Pay mostly follows these differentiations, and they are advertised quite heavily. Uniforms differ from the higher ranks, and even small differences are advertised by the insignia on the uniforms.

      I know someone is going to think the pay is the differential (because it follows the rank and time in service), but anyone in the military knows it isn't. You don't worry about how much money the guy with significantly higher rank has when he's walking your way. You worry about his rank, the power that goes with it, and whether any of that power is going to be directed to you.

    99. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure, you can always cherry-pick the example where it didn't work. there's a lot of public housing here in europe, thet's not a plattenbau and where you don't have to "wait for decades" (although, you might have to wait for 1-2 years, that's why you apply for it before moving out from your parents).

    100. Re: Ha! by unami · · Score: 2

      you're probably confusing socialism with communist dictatorship (as it existed in eastern europe and russia until 25 years ago). anyways, yes, what you describe is not working, but so is capitalism, whis seems to be in a major meltdown right now. time to find some new system (or at least some middle ground and some political leaders who can sell this without resorting to extreme positions)

    101. Re:Ha! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      Differences in pay exist because capitalism grew out of feudalism and inherited the hierarchical structure of nobility and serfs. Quoth the summary: "Some employees quit because they felt it was unfair to double the pay of some new hires while the longest-serving staff members got small or no raises." In other words, the king favored the peasants so the aristocrats, fearing they would no longer be supported by them, threw a hissy fit.

      It's an interesting look at one of the contradictions between capitalism's nominal values (maximizing your personal profit) and actual ideological structure (quitting because someone else got a rise, rather than because you got a better offer somewhere else). The important question is whether such irrationality is something that can be removed once it starts causing too much trouble, or if the entire system will collapse - in other words, what shape the next wave of communism will take, and whether it'll be the final one or if capitalism can recover again.

      Interesting times we live in.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    102. Re:Ha! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      And this company is doing the equivalent of paying a private on his first day the same as a Colonel who's been in the army for ten years.

      Who could have guessed that would cause problems?

      ...Why should it? The Colonel's authority does not derive from his pay, it derives from his rank. If anything, the pay for the private should be higher, since he has a shittier job.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    103. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that and bargaining ability. You could argue that the current system favours the self-promoters, the arrogant, and the dishonest willing to overstate their achievements and denigrate others over the quiet achievers and hard workers who get stuff done rather strut and preen in front of managers.

    104. Re:Ha! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Here's a protip: when only some people get the "fair shake", then it's not a fair shake.

      Welcome to the Party, comrade. We're happy to receive you.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    105. Re:Ha! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That's a common mistake. Jobs like nursing and teaching are poorly paid because we accept low standards. If you want really good educators, for example, you still have to pay top dollar.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    106. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The blurb is not exact.

      The only sign of "struggling" is that they lost some valued employees. That was bound to happen, even with the most optimistic expectations. This is a big change in company culture. Those who don't fit, won't be comfortable staying. It's not that bad. On the other hand, there's a big pool new guys signing up for their spots, with luck and work they can cherrypick talented guys wwho do fit the culture.

      Customer acquisition is up, more than 70%.

      The financial trouble that the CEO cites (renting his house and all) is mostly due to legal costs from the lawsuit. Not directly related to the change. Of course, were he making 1M, he wouldn't care so much for the legal costs, but that's also expected.

    107. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the interview with the upset employees. You're simply wrong.

      Work 80 hour weeks bleeding for a company, watch them give a $20k bonus to the asshole who shows up late and leave early, then just fucking shut up.

      The only reason you don't have a problem with this is because you're the under-working, overpaid shitbag leeching off of others.

    108. Re:Ha! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      70k is the minimum, not the maximum. You can earn more if you, well, earn it. What upset people is that they had worked up to 70k so got nothing, while new staff got a massive pay rise.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    109. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true, my best friend is a multi millionaire and he's having a hard (by hard I mean 900k per year) time right now. He's always wanting to impress everyone when there is no need. I like to game so he bought two gaming systems at $20,000 each last year, and the year before that. I'm like dude, you need to stop doing this I have a gaming pc I can bring with me.. Sure it's not a $20,000 system, but it gets the job done. I've told him a million times, I'm your friend I don't give a fuck about your money. My favorite part of hanging out is the look his neighbors use give me when I pull in the drive with my $12,000 car and step out in my $7 shirt & shorts. They always gave me a snooty little head turn so I printed a shirt with a snooty head that says U Mad Bro? On the back it says I'm talking to you...people with the creepy angel boy pissing fountain trololo. They still don't know what trololo is rofl. How can I tell? They always do a little dafuq head tilt when reading it.

      Captcha: stoned
      Maybe a little.

    110. Re: Ha! by khallow · · Score: 1

      The reason for market regulations that have been enacted to date is that capitalism doesn't work.

      Unregulated airlines or other businesses would be cheap but not necessarily safe.

      Modest regulation doesn't indicate the absence of capitalism.

    111. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 1

      If you say the US, I'm going to punch you right in your government monopoly covered mouth.

      You said it. The US, of course, is an example, They didn't magically create the biggest and most powerful economy on Earth through the power of public ownership of capital.

    112. Re:Ha! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Another way to look at it is if you pay poorly and only reward people who aggressively compete with others at the expense of the team, you end up with a mix of loners and people who feel little loyalty or investment in the company.

      If you only want to pay me 50k for a skilled job with lots of pressure then expect me to feel zero loyalty and be looking for something better. I'm not gonna work free overtime for you, what kind of a mug do you think I am?

      The only mistake here was not giving the people who were already on 50-60k a raise as well.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    113. Re:Ha! by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      ...except that's not actually true.

      For example, there's been the long-running practice of reenlistment bonuses. Different jobs get much higher bonuses for reenlisting.

      The base pay may be the same, but the difference between, say, a low-ranking cook and a low-ranking nuclear weapons technician is pretty startling when that bonus is calculated. As in "tens of thousands of dollars."

      Exactly right.

      A nuke can get 1. an enlistment bonus, 2. starts as E3 instead of E1, 3. auto promotion to E4 after boot camp, 4. specialty pay, 5. re-enlistment bonuses.

      Oh yeah, the teachers at navy nuke power school? "Direct input" officers, officers so they can be paid more.

    114. Re:Ha! by Headw1nd · · Score: 2

      So you only have one coworker you can count on? Maybe if your company decides to keep a bunch of slackers and fuckoffs in the organization you should consider going somewhere with better management, rather than patting yourself on the back about how much better you are than said slackers.

    115. Re:Ha! by mark-t · · Score: 2

      You describe a worst case scenario, where the quality of the work in a company doesn't affect your employment status. While companies like this exist, they are not companies that any person with a decent work ethic would want to be employed by, regardless of how much they might pay. In any reasonably-run company, a person who spends most of their work day around a water-cooler not actually getting their job done would be fired in short order, regardless of salary. While I realize that firing people for petty reasons can be bad for morale, it's not unreasonable for any company to expect that its employees not just get paid to show up, but actually to get some shit done. Reasonably, the company should probably talk to the employee as soon as the pattern of lackluster behavior is noticed, and hopefully not have to let the person go if they improve. In practice, however, the company should have a pretty good impression of an employee's work ethic within just a few months of hiring them, and firing a more recently hired employee is generally not that demoralizing to people who have been there longer and work much harder when the company has good reason to let the person go anyways.

      I would argue that people who would focus on how much time and effort it took for them to get to where they are and compare that to how little it took for a new hire to get to the same point are also probably falling for the sunk costs fallacy. They cannot get that time back, and lamenting that somebody else might get to the same position with much less effort than they put in is really just petty jealousy. In actuality, in such a situation, the past efforts of the hard working employee have probably helped put the company in a position that it can afford to be that generous in the first place. If one is less than happy with their pay and want to get paid more, then they should approach their employer to increase their responsibilities at work in exchange for a raise, if such opportunities are available. If, after a ramp-up period, they can perform the work competently, then the employer should reasonably increase the person's salary to correspond with your increased responsibility. If they cannot handle the new responsibilities, or if no new responsibilities are available, then why should the employer be reasonably expected to pay the employee more money? It's a pretty safe safe bet that if a new hire's suddenly getting paid 50% more than they were making just last month, then there's going to be an implicit contract for employee to do their damned best to prove that they were worthy of that kind of increase. As a new hire, if they aren't measuring up after a period of time, it's not unreasonable or even particularly problematic to let the person go if they aren't putting their best effort forward.

      And really, if they used to be satisfied with how much they were making, as long as their salary is adjusted at somewhat regular intervals for cost-of-living growth or inflation, then why should that satisfaction change just because of how much someone else makes? As I said, the hard-working employee who was there at the beginning may have helped get the company into a position where it can afford to pay people a decent starting wage, and that is something that a person should be *proud* of.... not showing petty jealousy over the new hires that might get reap some of the benefit of your hard work. Also, having regular, ideally annual, salary increases that reasonably track the growing costs of living and inflation is not an unreasonable thing to expect from any company that is worth working for... if an employee is undeserving of such a modest increase, then they probably aren't working hard enough in the first place, and should probably be let go. If the company's margins are too tight to afford such increases, then the company is living beyond its means already, and there is no opportunity for a raise in the first place, so if you are dissatisfied with how much you make there, then you should find work elsewhere a

    116. Re: Ha! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Work 80 hour weeks bleeding for a company, watch them give a $20k bonus to the asshole who shows up late and leave early, then just fucking shut up.

      So does unpaid overtime get any better if your boss and/or the shareholders get to reap the benefits instead? That kinda backs my point, you know.

      The only reason you don't have a problem with this is because you're the under-working, overpaid shitbag leeching off of others.

      No, just smart enough to realize that if I succumb to divide and conquer tactics, I'll be working those 80-hour weeks too soon enough. Unionize, accept that this means that even the asshole who shows up late and leaves early benefits, and enjoy your new 40-hour workweeks.

      As a side note, I can't help but notice that even propaganda no longer tries to argue I'm better off with capitalism, but focuses on negging and attempts to play people against each other. It has a taste of desperation in it, almost like even those spouting it no longer really believe their own message but simply go along due to force of habit.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    117. Re: Ha! by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      Message from the 99%: when your company does well, don't horde the profits amongst the executive class.

    118. Re:Ha! by jshackney · · Score: 1

      The Private is more dispensable than the Colonel.

    119. Re:Ha! by Outtascope · · Score: 1

      But those bonuses (re-enlistment, specialty pay, hazardous duty pay, etc) still fit a very rigid structure. It isn't capricious, and everyone knows exactly what the requirements are to achieve that rate. SSGT Jackson doesn't make 20% more than SSGT Hanson simply because SSGT Jackson has a dick or because SSGT Hanson didn't have MSGT Thomas over for dinner often enough.

      This is EXACTLY the kind of meritocracy that people whining about the occupy movement should be embracing. But they don't, they want to preserve their entitlements while criticizing others for seeking what they see as entitlements. What this company did isn't pay equity, it's just an idiotic overly literal interpretation of the expression (kudos for trying, but come on). I think you would be very hard pressed to find a significant portion of the occupy group that believes that a CxO shouldn't make more money than the average worker. They just don't think they should make an amount that is irrationally disconnected from their contribution to the success of the company.

      The reality is, that if you were to pay according to merit, I think you would find that most high performing businesses would have dozens of employees who make more than any CxO because their contributions are that much more important. That doesn't happen though, because the entitlement issue happens at the top, not the bottom.

      No honest person believes that a hamburger flipper should make the same as a police officer, or business executive, etc. Most decent human beings, however, would find it disgusting that such a large portion of our population makes insufficient money to survive, while WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF. They work multiple jobs because the assholes at the top limit their hours under 29 to avoid paying extravagant benefits like, you know, health insurance. They end up having to use corporate welfare (which in reality is ALL welfare outside of that for the disabled) in order to get by the day to day. Not ironically, the people complaining about the "entitled" workers for wanting to be able to live inside a home, to take a couple days off when they get hit by a car without losing their job, or be able to get antibiotics when they get pneumonia, are the same ones who treat those workers like shit at the drive through or the checkout or the customer service desk.

    120. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet Japan exists to make your crappy assumptions look like cherry picked ignorant blather.
      Move the fuck on. Socioeconomic equality is feasible and demonstrated in many ways.

    121. Re: Ha! by joocemann · · Score: 1

      And yet Japan and most of Europe are doing great.... Stfu. All I need to beat your bullshit arguments is to look outside. Quit taking classes from your inbred family and get around a little.

    122. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you even followed the story? It's only a problem because his whiny senior employees got jealous and left. If people weren't so worried about what the other guy is making the company would be fine.

    123. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck off corporatist scum

    124. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, Jesus, what a Communist. (Matthew 20:1-16)

    125. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure I heard that argument from Occupy... Don't let that stop you from making your point though.

    126. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Capitalism" isn't a system. It is freedom. A free market is a side-effect of a free people. Under a free society there may always be "better" ways of doing things, but that doesn't make them moral or even necessary.

    127. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

      See pay shouldn't be equal, everyone should work as hard as possible and everyone will get paid only what they need. If the janitor needs a new sports car then the lead engineer doing all the innovation can pay for it....unless he says "fuck off" and leaves I guess.

      Seems like a reasonable premise for a book ;-)

    128. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And where is this? All of this info is useless "for reference" without at least the name of the city.

    129. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. This is a common mistake. It is wrong.

      Differences in pay exist because of supply and demand. If there are many people willing to do your job, then pay for that job will be low, even if your job is valuable (see nursing, teaching, etc).

      You are absolutely correct WRT supply and demand, but I feel compelled to comment and correct one piece of this.

      Actual nurses aren't poorly paid. There are people with "nurse" in their titles like CNAs who have short program night school certificates, but actual nurses with bachelor degrees are well paid, with excellent benefits, and lower hours than most other full time jobs, because demand is very high, and they have strong unions.

      And they have good PR too, and a sterling public image, much of which is overblown IMO, but that is another topic.

    130. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, first: "Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company."

      Differences in pay exist for many reasons. One of them may be that they perform different functions of different value etc. But there are other reasons as well - some people have the exact same function and value, but are better negotiators. Some may be taller or better-looking. Some may have negotiated on a day when the person on the other side of the negotiation was having a hangover. And some may be people who felt they had no negotiating leverage for one reason or another, correctly or incorrectly. Maybe they are supporting a sick, saintly mother and were frightened that if they negotiated too hard they wouldn't get the job. Another may have nobody depending on them and nothing to lose, and be an asshole frat boy who is confident in his own importance.

      Many reasons, fair and unfair.

      As for the communist utopia, I'm no expert, but wouldn't there be no salary at all in a communist utopia? Or money?

    131. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >since this is in arizona

    132. Re: Ha! by tehlinux · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure occupy was about doing illegal drugs and squatting illegally in the parks.

      --
      Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
    133. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, they were. I had deal w/ the Occupy smell on almost a daily basis in Oakland. The hammer and sickle was a very common sign then.

      Exactly right. The naive reinvent facts to make their case.

      In my dealings with the Occupy crowd I found them to naive, unworldly and absolutely ignorant of the realities of life. I lost the idea that money grew on trees at around puberty, but Occupy resolutely believed in the idea that money just happened. And anyone who did not give them money was simply greedy. The Occupy people seem to never to have discovered the simple fact: there ain't no free lunch.

    134. Re: Ha! by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      I imagine that while their salaries are equal, their housing opportunities are not.

    135. Re:Ha! by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Jealousy hath no limits

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    136. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      A situation where the biggest fuckoff who takes a dozen ciggy breaks a day, and takes off every sick day he earns and comes in late every day and leaves early

      Not having to listen to that guy complain about being underpaid or a dozen other things -- priceless.

      Oh yeah - he does that while at work too.

      There were a couple guys in a different department who would visit and grouse about how busy they were for an hour or two every day. (only a little exaggerated)

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    137. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The drivers of productive people infrequently have anything to do with compensation.

      Are you actually a manager or just an employee who doesn't want to see a coworker get paid more than you?

    138. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      'The suits' don't reward anything but ass kissing. You are at work to fund your life not to please middle management of some company.

      With an attitude like that, you'll get far.

      Ass kissing? Not even. Being responsive and polite and sociable ! = ass kissing. My main claim to fame was not pissing my pants like most of the nerds who had a bad authority problem based on insecurity. They talked real tough - like you - but when the chips were down, they crumbled. Most of my company's suits are my friends. Those suits are actually real people. Problems just like everyone else.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    139. Re: Ha! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      The west is in trouble because of the way the funny money is being manipulated by extra-market forces, mainly governments, but, yes bankers, too. Bankers can buy governments off. Governments shouldn't allow that.

    140. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US, of course, is an example

      It actually isn't.

      They didn't magically create the biggest and most powerful economy on Earth through the power of public ownership of capital.

      They didn't create it through private ownership of capital either. The Gilded Age is called that because the capitalist bling only exists on the surface. Underneath, it was also the period when the labor movement and progressive movement rose up, to eventually become dominant by the beginning other 20th century.

      It's kinda why capitalist proponents such as yourself is complaining so much how we don't have enough capitalism these days. The move away from capitalism started way back, back before America became the biggest and strongest economy.

    141. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      So you only have one coworker you can count on?

      No, thte other folks are average. And so was their pay. We were paid according to our value. There were a few who were not all that at all, who went away whenever there was a downturn.

      It really isn't practical to have everyone be excellent, outside of Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above average.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    142. Re: Ha! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      ..and yet not a single counterexample from you. Just namecalling. For someone claiming to come from a place that's supposedly above things like generalizations and discrimination, you sure do like to discriminate. Maybe you should ban a few more urinals and let a few more muslims over the border. That'll fix it.

      I notice a lot of this hypocrisy coming from Europeans posting here. It's funny how they're quick to say Americans are indoctrinated fools, yet the similarities of the spin in their posts makes it seem like they're suffering from propaganda at least as much.

    143. Re: Ha! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Even then, if the boss decides the 'merit' should be based on irrelevant attributes (like familial relation, race, sex, etc) instead of relative value of output, then morale suffers, taking productivity with it. A great example of this is affirmative action policy. The fact this particular action was taken privately instead of imposed by a government is irrelevant. He's being sued for a reason.

      Too much competition in a business means there's too much redundant labor competing for the same work. Too much enforced 'cooperation' policy creates too much management overhead for individuals to get work done efficiently.

    144. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      The drivers of productive people infrequently have anything to do with compensation.

      Are you actually a manager or just an employee who doesn't want to see a coworker get paid more than you?

      I'm completely self motivated. I'll do the best job I can do - even if it is doing something I don't care to do, under any circumstances.

      That includes pay.

      But a person shouold always know themselves. I know how much my labor is worth.

      And the company's pay is a way of communicating with me that they appreciate my worth. This isn't like some sort of hyper-agressive thing, it's just sensible feedback.

      Regarding your other question, I wasn't specifically a manager, but other employees had to listen to me.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    145. Re: Ha! by baristabrian · · Score: 1

      This ... just in ... socialism has *never* worked. Now, cue the angry, self-righteous and impotent ranting of people who perpetually feel victimized by lack of "equality" and "fairness." Just saying. -- The [poor] Homeless Guy

      --
      -- "I'm not in a hurry; I'm in Hawaii." The Homeless Guy
    146. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Ahwatukee, which is the southern tip of Phoenix, Arizona.

    147. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, this is dead in the middle of the tech capital of Arizona, as a lot of big name tech firms are headquartered here and/or run major operations here. Intel for example has the world's most advanced semiconductor plant only five miles from me (or so intel says, I *think* this is their 14nm plant.)

    148. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 1

      They didn't create it through private ownership of capital either. The Gilded Age is called that because the capitalist bling only exists on the surface. Underneath, it was also the period when the labor movement and progressive movement rose up, to eventually become dominant by the beginning other 20th century.

      I think that's confusing cause and effect. You don't have powerful labor unions without a strong demand for labor. That's why labor unions were strong around 1900, but not a century later when attrition had greatly reduced labor unions outside of the public sector (which is immune to foreign labor competition).

      Meanwhile, we have a well-studied history of the creation of new inventions, new businesses, and profound societal changes driven by people who owned the things and ideas which made those changes.

      It's kinda why capitalist proponents such as yourself is complaining so much how we don't have enough capitalism these days. The move away from capitalism started way back, back before America became the biggest and strongest economy.

      One doesn't destroy a mountain in a day. I find it interesting how one can complain about the many decades long decline in the US, both its industries and the quality of life and work of its workers without connecting the dots. There's this long abandonment of the things that made the US. And every step of the way, capitalism gets blamed while the failure from this new approach grows.

    149. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 1

      In short, do not confuse correlation (high value jobs have high pay) with causation (we do NOT give high pay to people with high value jobs because we value the jobs).

      Don't buy this in the least.

      We pay people what we need to pay in order to find someone to do the job.

      Or we don't since we don't need that job. I'm not going to pay you $15 per hour to do a job that is worth $1 per hour to me. Conversely, if I'm paying you $1 per hour to do a job that is worth $15 per hour to me, then I likely can find more people to do the work and increase my profit. Substantial differences between the value of labor and the price commanded to labor are going to correct one way or another.

    150. Re: Ha! by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Nature doesn't give one fuck about your "values." Salaries (economies) are a direct representation of the laws of nature. Don't like it? You are free to leave. Poking at it never goes well.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    151. Re: Ha! by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      The controlling Factors should control the allocation of profits. However they have a responsibility to re-invest the money. Controlling Factors often re-invest the money and make more opportunity and wealth for many. Simple fact.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    152. Re: Ha! by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      What "moral values" would that be? Destroying a company that a lot of people worked hard to build, just in order to feed his own ego? Of course, if he owns the company, it's his right to destroy it. That doesn't make it a moral thing to do.

      He is not worthy. I see founders and controlling Factors as chieftains, responsible for the people they have brought into their fold. Someone who starts a company and destroys it is a piece of shit.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    153. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in NYC a 1 bedroom w/ 500 square feet will run from 1700 (with an hour commute) to 3500 a month in manhattan (or more.)

      The rest of your amenities wont be available.

    154. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or do you actually have a problem with his values but are too... something (insecure? incapable?) to actually mount a coherent moral argument against them?

      What "moral values" would that be? Destroying a company that a lot of people worked hard to build, just in order to feed his own ego? Of course, if he owns the company, it's his right to destroy it. That doesn't make it a moral thing to do.

      Or we could of course go the route of public housing with standardized, non-market-based prices, but something tells me you wouldn't be a fan of that bit of hard-nosed realism

      You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... With decades-long waiting lists for even getting one of those drafty, cramped, noisy apartments? Thanks, I'll take US-style capitalism over your "hard-nosed realism" any day.

      Excellent response to the doofuses (or is it doofi).

    155. Re:Ha! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Colonel (O-6) in 10 years? More like a Major (O-4). If you're lucky. Most officers come in at O-1 (Second Lieutenant, for the branches with Colonels), two years later they get O-2 (Fist Lieutenant), in year four there's a promotion board that makes 90% of the O-2s into O-3 (Captain). Roughly 6 years after that (so pretty much exactly on the day of the 10 years) there's another promotion board, and 80% of the O-3s from that particular year get to O-4. Dates can change depending on what you're doing precisely (for example, an MD or JD brought into the Medical or JAG corps would start at O-3, and they might be to O-5 by year 10; during the wars the Army needed a lot more O-2s and O-3s with combat experience pronto so the O-1 to O-2 date was reduced to 1.5 years for combat branches, etc.).

      An actual Colonel with 10 years experience would actually have a monthly pay rate of $7,623.30, plus a tax-free housing allowance, bonuses for specialties, probably some re-upping money, a real retirement with a defined benefit pension, etc.; and would probably be making the equivalent of the low six figures.

      Which is roughly 50% more then the $70k minimum this CEO proposed. And remember that's a minimum. Everybody who made more then $70k did not have their compensation changed at all. So the analogy is probably more that at Gravity a buck private makes as much as an O-3 Captain with six years experience.

    156. Re:Ha! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that he is paying. If he thought you were worth more then $70k you got more then $70k. If he thought you were worth less then $70k he simply wouldn't hire you. I suspect that if you come to his business in 10 years times he'll have a lot of really really good direct employees, quite a few contractors doing unskilled work,and a whole lot of extra business because this is really good press.

      BTW, your experience in Tech, with an office full of people who all make wildly differing amounts based largely on how good they were at negotiating their initial salary, is not typical in America. I work in retail. 10 years ago they paid people decent wages, and had an actual raises budget. Now they start at $9 ($9.25 if you negotiate), and give you $0.25. As a result pretty much the only people who make actual money are those who hired in a long time ago, or hired in under a special program (our store, for example, has two guys making $19-25 because they were Master Electricians hired into retail).

    157. Re:Ha! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Long-term it's going to work out quite well for him. One of the major problems the article cites is that his customer-base is growing leaps and bounds, but he can't start making money from a new customer for a year-and-a-half or so. Other problems are that some of his higher-paid employees quit, and his brother/minority shareholder is suing him for wasting the company's money. The extra customers problem isn't really a problem, the employees can be replaced (probably by better people, because with this kind of press a lot of very good people looking for work in the Pacific Northwest will be sending him a resume), and the brother's lawsuit can be settled so the money from the new customers can start rolling in.

      Which means any bank would be very smart to lend him whatever he needs, at a very competitive interest rate.

      There is a very large untapped market of people who would prefer to give their money solely to companies that don't treat their employees like a cost center, and this company is tapping that.

    158. Re:Ha! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      It's not.

      Business is up. Profits aren't, because apparently it takes awhile for new payment processing accounts to pan out.

      But all this is apparently great publicity, and he gets a bonus nice warm feeling from paying all his people enough to be happy.

    159. Re:Ha! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Translation:
      I got paid more because I negotiated with the boss better, and you have to believe I deserved it because on the internet nobody would be lying about being productive.

    160. Re:Ha! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Translation: I got paid more because I negotiated with the boss better, and you have to believe I deserved it because on the internet nobody would be lying about being productive.

      Yeah - that must be it.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    161. Re: Ha! by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      Funny enough Occupy was working fine until it was co-opted, and the progressive stack happened.

      Occupy Wall Street was set up by Adbusters, a Canadian Socialist group. Whatever else it was, it wasn't "co-opted"

    162. Re: Ha! by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      For reference, $1094 a month's rent gets me:

      1) 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, living room, big kitchen, total 781 square feet, single floor unit and located on the first floor.

      Rent in my area is almost as expensive so I figured rent was a huge ripoff and consequently bought a house for $800/mo through my local bank via the Federal Housing Administration at 3% interest; 3 bedroom, 2 bath, total 2300 square feet, 1 acre. Mortgage payments include home owner's insurance, mortgage insurance and property taxes in an escrow account.

    163. Re: Ha! by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      Sure. I respect a good business plan and respect a good implementation of said plan even more. Don't appreciate executive salaries rising meteorically while the rest of the company stagnates. That's the problem. There is no sense of proportion.

    164. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha, exactly! How well would any given corporation function without breathable air? And yet curiously few firms spend any money buying air.

    165. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just goes to show you that the Soclialistic plan of redistributing the wealth does not work. This country was born and grew to be the most powerful country in the world because of Capitalism. There always has and always be upper, middle, and lower classes. There will always be the rich because they will never participate in redistributing to the poor.

    166. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      That's probably similar to where I live. Getting a mortgage will generally cost you less per month than renting will. Rent just usually costs more because it's in higher demand.

      I could have gotten a mortgage (my credit score is 822 and I secured a pre-qualification letter) but I wanted to make sure my job stays secure for at least a year (my own personal requirement, not the bank's.)

    167. Re:Ha! by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      First of, sorry for your loss.
      Secondly, you're a damn good person, thank you for making me feel less stupid for wanting to help people.

    168. Re:Ha! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Secondly, you're a damn good person...

      I don't know about that, but I don't think I'm a bad person. My guiding thought is that whenever I see Sue again, I hope she will be proud of me or, at least, not be disappointed.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    169. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you try to equalize pay then the value of people's contributions and skill sets lose all value since the pay will be the same regardless of experience. New hires are paid the same as longer term employees and that will cause all kinds of friction. Equalized pay equals valueless employees.

    170. Re: Ha! by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Occupy Wall Street was set up by Adbusters, a Canadian Socialist group. Whatever else it was, it wasn't "co-opted"

      Really? I guess that's why all those original leaders were driven out by the far left, when the progressive stack happened. Ever wonder why a leaderless movement like Gamergate is still around? No leaders, nothing to co-opt.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    171. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since this is in Arizona

      Knew there was a catch!

    172. Re:Ha! by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the extra pay for being married! There is that also!

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    173. Re: Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is not just that it is easy, it is also that it does not teach you any skill actually useful in this world (useful = you can make money using it, and no "modeling/acting/singing/art" does not count eaiher if you dont earn atleast $33K/year - minimal salary in USA if i understand correclty, im from EU)

    174. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are forgeting that a lot of research papers show people would rather get 100K/year when everybody else around them makes 50K/year than when they and everybody else makes (equal) 200K/year

      http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/120/3/963.short

      simply for happines it is not important howmuch money/stuff you have ( if your not hungry offcourse) it is important that you have more than people around you (coworkers, familly, neighbors ... )

      PS i know it is true because i feel same, its more important to me i get higher salary compared to others, than howmuch i actually get

    175. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      neither nursing, nor teaching (elementary/highschool level) requres significant skill compared to real professions like doctor, professor, engineer, mathematician, organic chemist ...
      amount of people (supply) that are able and want to work in nursing and teaching roles is proof itself that it is not as valuable/hard to fill role.
      plus you do have to calculate indirect compensation in salary - in other words reduce "base" salary because there are "indirect compensations".

      for example nurse gets $X per year in "base" salary + $Y per year in better medical insurance + $Z per year in "feeling good because he is helping other people and making them better when they are weak/hurt" + (only for female nurses) $Z2 per year in motherly instinct bonus (extra drugs like oxitocin released by your brain) that make you feel much better when taking care of someone weak, especially if that is small child.

    176. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how something so demonstrably wrong is at a 5. Virtually every person on Earth would be willing to be a CEO, since you make obscene amounts of money, even if you destroy the company.

    177. Re: Ha! by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Socialism doesn't work

      The US uses socialistic policies to govern many programs successfully. Social Security is one.

      Then it rots away eg: the Soviet Union.

      Socialism is not communism. Socialism has nothing to say about who owns production, who owns property, etc.. Capitalism and Socialism can both exist in a society together without conflict.

    178. Re: Ha! by fuzzy2k · · Score: 1

      you can also get a centrally located NYC flat for $1100/month, with all of 100 square feet of space. Central Park is my living room is the marketing tag line.

      --
      --- Say something clever. Pretend it was me. Thanks.
  2. GTFO! by tehlinux · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wait, so great employees don't like making the same as their mediocre colleagues?! Get the #*@! out of here!

    --
    Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
    1. Re:GTFO! by physicsphairy · · Score: 1, Interesting

      They evidently don't like it, but it's pretty dumb to quit because someone else got a raise, esp. when it means the CEO is now making less than you. I suppose the story was supposed to be "CEO sacrifices pay so engineers can upgrade Escalades to Ferraris," which of course would have been very heart touching.

    2. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hell where I'm at I'm almost certain some of my mediocre colleagues make more than what I do. But if I "really" knew that, I'd be looking around more often.

    3. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah let me drive an Escalade on 70k a year... It better be the delux model, since I won't afford rent and have to live in it.

    4. Re:GTFO! by CauseBy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is an entire parable about this in the Bible, in Matthew 20.

      The gist is: fuck you, you earn plenty, stop griping about others getting a slice of pie.

    5. Re:GTFO! by geoskd · · Score: 2

      There is an entire parable about this in the Bible, in Matthew 20.

      Funny thing about the Bible. Once you get past the crazy religious parts, its got a lot of good advice about living a happy fulfilled life...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    6. Re:GTFO! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Funny thing about the Bible. Once you get past the crazy religious parts, its got a lot of good advice about living a happy fulfilled life...

      Funny thing about the Bible... most of it is either a Jewish holy book rephrased, and most of the rest of it is some kind of apologia for how it makes no sense. One whole book is an apologia for another book.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:GTFO! by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mediocre employees who mistakenly think they are great are upset that great employees who they think are mediocre are being paid the same.

      $70K was also the minimum. What they complained about was that the person making a subsistence living at $20K to sweep the floors may have gotten a huge raise whereas someone make $100K got no raise at all. People can be petty that way.

    8. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intelligent folks follow good advice whatever it's source.
      Mediocre intellects may learn from their own mistakes.
      Stupid people *don't make mistakes* --they blame other_people...or fate

    9. Re:GTFO! by willworkforbeer · · Score: 0

      There is an entire parable about this in the Bible, in Matthew 20.

      The gist is: fuck you, you earn plenty, stop griping about others getting a slice of pie.

      FALSE. The parable involves hiring people to do the exact same chore but more importantly is intended to address the attitude of 'long time faithful folk' feeling upset about the new converts getting rewarded with the same afterlife as those who walked the walk on Earth much longer.

      In the Price story -- he hired people to do different chores and then blindly rewarded them all equally without regard to difficulty, experience, effort, and so forth . A mistaken theory... and the publicity that he sought has not offset the consequences.

      If this was not a publicity stunt, they why didn't he just do it without alerting the media?

      --
      Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
    10. Re:GTFO! by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      No, not for doing the same work, for doing different work. That's the entire point of the parable. One guy agrees to work for X, then complains about another person getting paid X for less work. That's the same as this situation.

      And the guy in this story didn't pay everyone the same, he just set a minimum wage.

      The gist: fuck you, stop complaining about others getting a little nip. You get your nip so be happy.

    11. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny thing about the Bible.

      The bible can be split into three distinct contexts: A historical record of 'celebrities' and laws, a prophet describing his cult of charity and prayer to a single god, disciples of that cult creating rules of worship. Fanatics like to confuse the historical, such as the ban on homosexuality and eating pork, with the rules of worship, such as virgin nubiles and no blood transfusions.

      ... the crazy religious parts ...

      But those parts prove what I want is righteous and what you want is evil. All Hellenic religions have the same founding principle: Follow these rules to receive some ill-defined, intangible reward. Alas, humans demand their individuality and their labour be rewarded.

    12. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you get past the crazy religious parts, its got a lot of good advice about living a happy fulfilled life...

      So once you get past the parts you don't like, it has parts you like. Imagine that.

    13. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, once you throw out all of the chaff, there always seems to be a bit of wheat in the barrel. The problem is that not everyone agrees on what is the valued information in the Bible. Fortunately, since I study the Bible, I'm ready to go out and kill some witches, punish people with bowl haircuts, cut off the hands of wives that touched non-husband genitals, condemn football players for touching pig skins, banish people for wearing tattoos, and hassle people for wearing fine clothes.

    14. Re:GTFO! by JCHerbsleb · · Score: 2

      There is an entire parable about this in the Bible, in Matthew 20.

      Respectfully, the Bible uses parables to teach an abstract lesson in story form by relating it to our lives in terms we can more easily understand -- an allegory if you will. On the surface, it certainly appears the parable is advocating for equal wages, but considering parables are allegories; logically it is unlikely the lesson we are intended to learn is in fact to pay all workers equally. Many interpret this particular parable to equate the work to faith and the payment to salvation thus both those who have had faith for a long while, and those new to the faith, both equally receive salvation.

    15. Re:GTFO! by qwijibo · · Score: 1

      I suspect the better people quit because mediocrity was being rewarded, which means the workload on people who don't do a crap job becomes impossible.

      Of course, the longer term issue is also that the company is going to collapse and those who see it coming will jump ship before the whole company collapses and there are that many other people looking for jobs. "Company went out of business and I didn't see it coming" isn't a great response to "why did you leave your last job?"

    16. Re:GTFO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think that parable is about economics, you're confused...

      It's about salvation. Basically if a murderer repents and believes at the last moment, he'll get the same salvation as the goody-two-shoes who never even jay walks. The story of the prodigal son has a similar theme.

    17. Re:GTFO! by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Reread the article.

      His main problem is that he's got too many customers and not enough people. In particular a couple of key people could not emotionally handle making near the same wage as their colleagues. But if he's overpaying at $70k he should be able to get the best people, assuming market theory is correct. It may take him a year or three, and he's probably gonna have to be a real Nazi about firing people who don't perform to metrics, but according to market theory he who pays the most has the first choice in potential employees.

      This is exactly the problem every business ever has wanted to have.

      His secondary problem is his brother (a 30% shareholder) is suing him. Which will cost money to deal with.

      Both can be easily solved by a business loan. Which should be trivial to get, because he's got more customers, which means he can show that he'll be able to pay it back.

    18. Re:GTFO! by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      That's an interesting take on the story, I like it, very informative thank you. I never thought of it as a parable about equal wages -- quite the opposite, the men are paid unequally. I always thought of it in the simplest way, as a story about taking a fair payment for work you agreed to do, and not carping about others getting a different deal. But I can see the allegory for salvation too, even though that interpretation wouldn't have much meaning in my personal life.

  3. Details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    LOL.

    What about the company's revenue? Employees can easily be replaced, but revenue is key.

    This guy sounds like a SJW which is a terrible CEO choice. You can't run a company on your feelings, and hope to remain successful.

    1. Re:Details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay. Glad to know Apple is a horrible failure of a company because it was run on Steve Jobs' feelings and opinions.

    2. Re:Details by kuzb · · Score: 1

      ...and as soon as job was out of the picture, it failed horribly right?

      Oh, wait...

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    3. Re:Details by jklovanc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Steve Jobs had two main feelings/opinions;
      1. Steve Jobs always has the right answer.
      2. Apple employees and customers exist for the sole purpose of making Steve Jobs lots of cash.

    4. Re:Details by ezdiy · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Next was just expensive toys company where a lot of the employees there were not exactly motivated by the money (perhaps that was even the whole point). It was certainly not consumer electronics moneygrab as Apple after that. AFAIK in that case, socialist payroll was no longer on the table.

    5. Re:Details by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Next was just expensive toys company where a lot of the employees there were not exactly motivated by the money (perhaps that was even the whole point). It was certainly not consumer electronics moneygrab as Apple after that.

      It was certainly not successful, and part of that was that NeXT machines were as much more expensive than Macs as Macs were than PCs at the time. The differences seem relatively minor now, but at the time, they were massive, especially as you got up into machines with video cards and big monitors. Only IBM's pricing approached Apple's in the PC world. But NeXT systems were in a whole other pricing class, up with the Sun workstations which had a whole lot more CPU than they did. They were, in fact, perhaps the first Hipster computer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Can't make everybody happy with grand gestures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was nothing more than an empty headed attempt towards egalitarian principles.

    You want people to be equal? Good idea on its own, but you can't just rush into it. You have to get them along with it. Which is hard.

    But heck, it isn't like most companies want their employees knowing how much everybody gets paid anyway.

    Fuck it, let's just get everybody truly equal in the only way that was ever true.

  5. Janitor makes as much as the ceo? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

    Those must be some shiny floors.

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    1. Re:Janitor makes as much as the ceo? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nah, rather CEOs paid by their real worth.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re: Janitor makes as much as the ceo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But those floors still better be FUCKING SHINY!

    3. Re: Janitor makes as much as the ceo? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why? Companies are not soaring in revenue either and still CEO salaries are skyrocketing.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Life imitating art? by K.+S.+Van+Horn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sounds like something out of an Ayn Rand novel. It's very similar to something that happens in Atlas Shrugged.

    1. Re:Life imitating art? by HairyNevus · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You'll have to elaborate if you want anyone to see your point. There's very few people who are both literary and masochistic enough to have read Atlas Shrugged (or anything by Ayn Rand).

      --
      You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
    2. Re:Life imitating art? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      You'll have to elaborate if you want anyone to see your point. There's very few people who are both literary and masochistic enough to have read Atlas Shrugged (or anything by Ayn Rand).

      Admit it. You just didn't get the jokes.

    3. Re:Life imitating art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is Jon Katz?

      Didn't read the books, only saw the movies. Part after part, they got worse and worse. They even exchanged the starring actors, due to budget problems I presume. The third part had as bad actors as a brazilian soap.

    4. Re:Life imitating art? by K.+S.+Van+Horn · · Score: 5, Informative

      John Galt, the pivotal figure in Atlas Shrugged, once worked as an engineer with the fictional Twentieth Century Motor Company. After the original owner died, his heirs decided that employees would work according to their ability, but be paid according to their needs.

      Needless to say, it did not work out well.

    5. Re:Life imitating art? by quantaman · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I'd agree but it's certainly life imitating Ayn Rand.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    6. Re:Life imitating art? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      I read the book when I was in high school. Its literary value is somewhat meh; it's an interesting enough story, but the book struck me as highly unusual and interesting, as it was the first time I actually saw some of the values I held dear championed in print. Up till then, like most kids in Dutch high schools, I had read and been spoon fed mostly socialist fare. It's the book that got me interested in philosophy, politics and economics, even though I quickly dismissed Rand's philosophy. As the XKCD guy said, I find myself agreeing with most of her ideas, up to the point where it says: "and therefor, be a complete asshole to everyone".

      I was interested again when I read that Atlas Shrugged was being turned into a couple of movies. I watched them, and I can only urge everyone else not to make that same mistake.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Life imitating art? by CauseBy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I tried. I got the book and started reading. When I got page 100 I stopped and thought about what I had read, which was nothing. Whatever story she tried to tell in that book, she took her sweet time in getting the plot going. I threw the book away. Any author who can't start a story within 100 pages is a shit author who needs a better editor.

      Maybe I'll try again someday. I'll start halfway through the book and see if maybe the story starts by then.

    8. Re:Life imitating art? by Stormwatch · · Score: 5, Informative

      WARNING, SPOILERS AHEAD

      Halfway through the novel, the protagonist meets a hobo who used to be a worker at the Twentieth Century Motor Company, whose bankruptcy years before was a key event in the novel for several reasons. He tells what had actually happened there:

      After the founder's death, the heirs decided to manage the company under the motto: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The consequence was obvious: all workers pretty much turned into beggars, inventing more needs, while anyone who demonstrated competence was required to work harder. While the press praised the "enlightened" management, productivity collapsed, quality went to shit, and clients ran away.

    9. Re:Life imitating art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The infamous Jon Galt who is supposedly the good guy starts a terroist organization and sabotages the wold economy though industrial espionage, collusion, fraud, and piracy (the kind with boas and gold bars) because as a young man he worked at a company when they implemented a policy vaguely like this.

      he also establishes what is basicly Burning Man for objectivists in his mountain stronghold hidden from the world by a cloaking device that uses "no one would swear an oath they didn't mean" as the basis for it's security system.

    10. Re:Life imitating art? by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're probably better off reading the Cliffs notes as it's rather dry. It could have made its point in far fewer pages and even for someone with political leanings towards those of the author, the portrayal of the antagonists (socialism) is so absurd that the book almost becomes a black comedy to me, although some would claim that is the style of the book and such is intentional.

      Either way, eventually you will make your way to the John Galt radio speech, which is where the book casts all pretenses of being a novel and spills its philosophical guts on the table, just in case you were functionally brain dead and couldn't deduce the message from the previous several hundred pages.

      Just save yourself the trouble and read a summary. The book doesn't work as either a work of fiction or as an ideological treatise. Even if you're the type of person to agree with every word of the book, it's still not worth your time.

    11. Re:Life imitating art? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Did you read The Fountainhead first? Because that is much better written, and really describes the struggle which is the basis of Atlas. After reading The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged makes a lot more sense.

      It's preachy, and I don't agree with it necessarily, but I understand the point. And I was able to follow the story until the 50 page manifesto at the end. Which I read, but Jesus Christmas just write a manifesto if a single character's speech goes beyond 5 pages.

      If you hate The Fountainhead, then just wikipedia the philosophy and consider yourself enlightened.

      I actually missed some of the characters, and felt cheated that Atlas wasn't better constructed, considering all of the praise (probably by people who had only heard of it).

      Don't try again, start somewhere else first.

    12. Re:Life imitating art? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      As the XKCD guy said, I find myself agreeing with most of her ideas, up to the point where it says: "and therefor, be a complete asshole to everyone".

      The problem with that idea is that most of her ideas are what an asshole would do. It's no surprise; she got them from a serial killer. Only an asshole would say "I did more of the work, therefore fuck you." Of course, the word is populated primarily with assholes. If that weren't true, few of us would want for anything. I, too, am an asshole in this regard. I consider myself to be less of an asshole than most others, but that's not much of an epitaph.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Life imitating art? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      as it was the first time I actually saw some of the values I held dear championed in print

      As in bring back the Tsar and the nobility? Rand demonstrates with the book that she has no idea about how a democratic Republic with an economy run via capitalism works. According to her we should just bow down and listen to born to rule jailbait instead of voting for leaders.
      The entire idea of all the "great men" going on strike and society crumbling is just a fantasy about Russia going back to the "good old days" when serfs knew their place. She was in paradise compared with that and was far too self-obsessed to notice - if she wasn't already screwed up the Hollywood environment of the time did it to her.

    14. Re:Life imitating art? by dbIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Needless to say, it did not work out well.

      Of course it didn't, because it was a pre-determined strawman in a novel as a snarky complaint about Rand not being paid what she thought she deserved by Twentieth Century Fox in her entry level job.
      Rand was so fucked up that she was comparing Hollywood employment to Soviet Russia! Read a bit about Rand's life and you'll understand where she is coming from and that she knew almost nothing about the the west and did not wish to know much about the west. She hated Stalin, but if Stalin had wanted to plant the seeds of political discord in the USA with a political movement he couldn't have done better than Rand no matter who he paid to do it.

      Her fantasies are Twilight for people in a democracy that wish they could be Royalty instead, and they fuck up anyone that takes them at more than face value. The message that you could be special if it wasn't for all of those Serfs having a say in how the country is run is utterly fucked. You should have to earn the right to rule instead of being born to it like Digby.

    15. Re:Life imitating art? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Hence a transparent fantasy about bringing back the Tsar and the Russian nobility instead of recognising that where Rand was standing was paradise compared with that as well. Rand just did not get the west. I've got no idea how she wrote her anti-republic screeds without seeing what was going on around her.

    16. Re:Life imitating art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could see the movie.

    17. Re:Life imitating art? by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      No I never tried the Fountainhead. I'm not inclined to her politics so I imagine I wouldn't enjoy the effort. Thanks for the tip though, there's a small chance I'll take your advice.

    18. Re:Life imitating art? by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      Rand was born in Russia and saw the country collapse around her as the reds took over. Atlas Shrugged is essentially what she had seen there, extended to the whole world.

    19. Re:Life imitating art? by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      WTF I got a +5 for that? Slashdot is crazy.

      But, it's true, I did think the first 100 pages of that book sucked.

    20. Re:Life imitating art? by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      "Just save yourself the trouble and read a summary."

      I'm fairly sure I knew the summary before I even picked up the tome: "some lady thinks that success is entirely a measure of purely individual effort, qualifying her as a loon".

      (The loony parts are the 'entirely' and 'purely' and 'individual'.)

    21. Re:Life imitating art? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      > Needless to say, it did not work out well.

      Thanks - but that's a story.

      Here's how real life 'worked out' for the author -- she who collected social security cheques as one who “regards it as restitution and opposes all forms of welfare statism”.

      References:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://ari.aynrand.org/issues...

      Rand underwent surgery for lung cancer in 1974 after decades of heavy smoking.[95] In 1976, she retired from writing her newsletter and, despite her initial objections, allowed Evva Pryor, a social worker from her attorney's office, to enroll her in Social Security and Medicare.[96][97] During the late 1970s her activities within the Objectivist movement declined, especially after the death of her husband on November 9, 1979.[98] One of her final projects was work on a never-completed television adaptation of Atlas Shrugged.[99]

      But to your main point - 'to each according to his needs' (Rand's story) is very different from 'set minimum wage' (Gravity Payments).

      In fact, the story it should remind you of is this one (at least that's what Gravity's CEO states was his inspiration behind his move):
      https://www.biblegateway.com/p...

    22. Re:Life imitating art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > After the founder's death, the heirs decided to manage the company under the motto: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The consequence was obvious: all workers pretty much turned into beggars, inventing more needs, while anyone who demonstrated competence was required to work harder. While the press praised the "enlightened" management, productivity collapsed, quality went to shit, and clients ran away.

      Sounds like every company I've ever worked for under a "Randian" philosophy.

      You know, the idiots and incompetent are promoted (to get them out of the way), and the competent are kept in 100% workload jobs rather than promoted to management positions lest they get rid of all the "seniority" idiots. Also, CEO's don't like competition.

    23. Re:Life imitating art? by BigFire · · Score: 1

      20th Century Motor Company's founder died. His 3 heirs implemented the pay scheme where each will work according to his ability but will be paid according to his need. One worker out of 6 thousand voted against the plan and quit. He also developed a revolutionary engine that would literally paved the street with gold, but he left that behind, with detail instruction on how to build it. He developed it on company time, and it was thus company property. Who is John Galt?

    24. Re:Life imitating art? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Read the article.

      He lost two good people. He's having to replace them, which is a pain because now everybody wants the gig. I suspect he was hiring through his church network or something like that before, so he didn't have to figure out whether the random applicant from three states away was lying on his resume or not.

      He's also got loads of new business. Which is great in the next-year-term, but not great now because he has to spend money to get the accounts set up before they producing. And also makes the hiring problem much more acute.

      His third problem is that his brother is suing him for a share of the profits. He probably needs to be both paid off, and bought out.

      You'll note that all these problems are easily solvable by a simple combination of a) cash, and b) sensible hiring practices (ie: new hires go to probation, and if they don't produce quickly they get replaced quickly). The cash should be trivial to get in the form of a small business loan, because he can show the bank he has the revenue to pay it all back.

    25. Re:Life imitating art? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      You've got good karma, so +5 only means three people liked your post.

      And it's not hard to get people to like a post calling Atlas Shrugged a poorly-written, contrived, overly-long mess.

    26. Re:Life imitating art? by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

      Rand was an occasionally brilliant thinker, but also a very inconsistent one. Her contributions to libertarian thought were significant, but by no means foundational; its real foundations go back at least to the beginnings of Western classical liberalism, and I would argue much further. Furthermore, many libertarians and voluntaryists, myself included, strongly reject many tenets of Objectivism such as its disdain for altruism, compassion and faith.

    27. Re:Life imitating art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pride myself on being the Minimum Viable Asshole I need to be

  7. Haha. by r.freeman · · Score: 1, Troll

    Silly quasi-communists.
    At least that guy is allrigh as he only wasted own money, as opposed to the actuall communists and socialists, so good riddance.
    Nice experiment of price difference as extra motivator...

    1. Re:Haha. by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Yup. Someone didn't learn his history lessons very well. (Or, more likely, was taught that, God Dammit, communism *works* if you only do it right!!!)

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    2. Re: Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much everything only works if you do it right. Sometimes the tolerances are wider, but it isn't like capitalism works magically in some perfect way. If it did, would a lot of problems in this country exist?

      Personally I want to see the results of the wild-eyed capitalist ideas, but I'm not sure any of them are legal.

    3. Re:Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well he also wasted his investors' money, including his brother. His cost went way up and his revenue went down as he lost major clients for this move. That's why his brother is suing him.

    4. Re:Haha. by Jhon · · Score: 1, Informative

      "At least that guy is allrigh as he only wasted own money"

      Not true. His brother (who is suing him) who co-founded and owns part of the company had his interest destroyed by this lame experiment.

    5. Re:Haha. by Jhon · · Score: 1

      So... I just clicked through the link on the brother and found a story quite different than the one I read several days ago.

      Maybe you weren't that far off on "his own money".

    6. Re:Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he only wasted own money,

      Nope. He isn't the sole owner, and his brother is suing him.

    7. Re:Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False.

      Revenue is UP.

      Number of clients is also UP.

    8. Re: Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With Capitalism there is no way to "do it right". You just leave it alone. The problem we have is people like you who want to control everything.

    9. Re:Haha. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Not true. His brother (who is suing him) who co-founded and owns part of the company

      That's a very major warning sign right there. Family companies use methods other than competence to choose area of responsibility.

    10. Re: Haha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With Capitalism there is no way to "do it right". You just leave it alone.

      I see. And you can assure us that there will be no consequences or problems with that? That no harm will come to anyone?

      The problem we have is people like you who want to control everything.

      Are you sure we don't have a problem with people like you who like to make up hyperbolic statements about others?

  8. Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1, Interesting

    One thing that often is missing from discussions about raising minimum wage / minimum salary is what to do with those already making more than the new value. I (like most engineers) make more than minimum wage. I've seen minimum wage go up by 40% since I entered the work force, but my own salary has only gone up by 25% in that same period. Minimum wage goes up, but my buying power goes down.

    1. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've seen minimum wage go up by 40% since I entered the work force, but my own salary has only gone up by 25% in that same period.

      You know that the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in over two decades, right? So if your wages are doing even more poorly than the minimum wage, you're getting fucked and hard. But you're complaining about the people who are getting fucked way harder than you, because them getting fucked slightly less hard means you get fucked slightly harder. What about the people doing the fucking? Maybe you should stop attacking your natural allies.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by bricko · · Score: 0

      Yep, only 4% of workforce even make the minimum to start with. And it was never designed to raise a family of 4 as some spout off. Its a temp wage essentially while you learn to pull up your pants and grow the fuck up, then shut up.

    3. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But you don't understand! it's absolutely unfair that Timmy had 3 marbles and got 3 more, and he had 10 marbles and only got 2 more! ITS NOT FAIR!!1! He demands at least 4 marbles or he's going to flip his shit and go full on ballistic temper tantrum followed by pouting for the rest of the afternoon!

    4. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      One thing that often is missing from discussions about raising minimum wage / minimum salary is what to do with those already making more than the new value. I (like most engineers) make more than minimum wage. I've seen minimum wage go up by 40% since I entered the work force, but my own salary has only gone up by 25% in that same period. Minimum wage goes up, but my buying power goes down.

      Exactly. To take an extreme example, if a person makes $15 an hour, and they raise the minimum wage from $8 to $15, then the high school dropout just got almost a 100% raise, and the guy getting $15 an hour gets a 0% raise. That hardly seems fair. On top of that the companies who are now forced to pay a higher minimum wage must either raise prices, fire workers, or if neither of those options is viable, go out of business. Most likely what will happen, since everybody has to pay the new minimum wage, is that prices will rise to match. So, instead of paying an exorbitant $12 for a burger fries and coke at Chili's, it will be more like $20. However, since nobody making $15 or more an hour will get a raise, few people will be able to afford to buy a $20 burger, and most of these places will go out of business.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    5. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minimum wage backers also support printing unlimited money to pay for entitlements; dogs chasing their tails are poor allies.

    6. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I know, right? We should have high schoolers working those 24 hour drive throughs while they're supposed to be in school or late at night, earning a below-living wage. Real adults just wouldn't stand for that, and don't deserve any better if they do.

    7. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Its a temp wage essentially while you learn to pull up your pants and grow the fuck up

      Yet the people spouting this off don't seem to have a whole lot of jobs for the minimum wage people to grow the fuck up and do.

    8. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Ever looked at how many costs are based on unskilled labor costs? It's not many. Raising the minimum wage doesn't mean massive inflation.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Minimum wage backers also support printing unlimited money to pay for entitlements

      [citation needed]

      Personally, I favor an MGI, and I think the money should come from corporate taxes. But there are more loopholes than there are dollars.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      raise the minimum wage from $8 to $15, then the high school dropout just got almost a 100% raise

      No. The high school dropout just got fired, and replaced with someone that is actually worth $15/hour.

      This is why unions have a hard time organizing workers at Wal-Mart and McDonalds. Those workers are actually smart enough to know that if the wages are raised, the employees will be earning more money, but they will be different employees.

    11. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With the only problem that things ain't the way they were. What was supposedly a temporary job to make ends meet while you study for your "real" job more and more becomes the real job for many people.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by RyoShin · · Score: 4, Informative

      In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

      - Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act (16 June 1933)

      Emphasis mine. The NIR Act established the first minimum wage in America (this was struck down in 1935, ruled unconstitutional by the SC, but a subsequent Act establishing a minimum wage was upheld by the SC in 1941, under that magical Commerce Clause.)

      Granted, he doesn't say the family size that decent living would support, but lacking statements to the contrary I assume at least a three-person household. But a temp wage? No, that does not appear to be the intention of it. Big business and our government has twisted and contorted it over the decades to be just a minimum wage paid to people... but if it can't cover life's basics, then what is the point of it at all?

    13. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 0

      But you don't understand! it's absolutely unfair that Timmy had 3 marbles and got 3 more, and he had 10 marbles and only got 2 more! ITS NOT FAIR!!1! He demands at least 4 marbles or he's going to flip his shit and go full on ballistic temper tantrum followed by pouting for the rest of the afternoon!

      Is it wrong to become financially secure? Is it wrong that someone gets ahead due to study and hard work? Is it wrong to want to be able to afford to put money away for retirement instead of becoming a burden on society? I don't aspire to be a millionaire; I just want enough to pay off my mortgage survive two or three months should I become unemployed.

    14. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      Yep, only 4% of workforce even make the minimum to start with. And it was never designed to raise a family of 4 as some spout off. Its a temp wage essentially while you learn to pull up your pants and grow the fuck up, then shut up.

      Yes, minimum wage versus living wage. Flipping burgers doesn't require specialized skills and should be seen as a job and not a career.

    15. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does result in inflation, but not from the GP's model. What happens is with more money in one segment of the economy, then demand for more goods goes up. Prices rise as a result. If the other ranks of salaries are not raised in accordance, then their purchasing power goes down as fewer of their dollars buys the same goods.

      That's a very high level, basic economics model and the truth is it doesn't quite hit all product types. It won't increase the price of cars noticably, but it will increase the demand and therefore price of consumer electronics.

    16. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to post an alternative to minimum wage.
      We simply take a percentage of the total tax income of the country and divided it up by the number of people living in the country. Send everyone a virtual check every 2 weeks. Thus the minimum wage would be whatever was enough to entice people to work simple jobs to get a little more. Also, we'd end most of the welfare ladders that the poor face on there road to becoming economically independent.

    17. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      Except we've already had a minimum wage over $10 an hour in today's money, and the rest of the world pays its mcdonalds workers quite a damn bit more than we do, and that hasn't happened here OR there. You're just talking out of your ass.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    18. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Naa, the unions can't organize because the buildings they used to work in "mysteriously" need 6-12 months of repair work and they close, putting everyone out of a job. But don't worry, corporations are people... very, very bad people that should be locked up to protect society.

    19. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      It seems pretty obvious to me that he should have raised everyone together on the same scale, then adusted for performance.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    20. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're getting fucked and hard.

      You know. That's really fine with me. I own 4 fully paid off houses all over the country and 3 cars. 4 if you count my wifes. I haven't had to work (mostly do it out of boredom and I like my job and I'm good at it) since I turned 40. $50k/year may buy a lot of beer, but $100k/year will buy a lot more than that if you aren't a complete moron.

    21. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the minimum wage was DESIGNED to do was keep blacks from competing with whites. If you look up the arguments made at the time these idiotic laws were being drafted, they were quite blatant about it.

    22. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 1

      As they should. The bourgeois that can't afford a cook along-side the maid and butler need to learn to cook their own damn burger. In Australia with $15+ minimum wage, it costs $10 per person to eat fast food, and $20 per person to eat pub food. And as it should be, a lot less service class food is eaten, as eating out has become precisely the redistribution of wealth it was intended to be. The last time I was in the US, I felt *terrible* paying $10 for a burger plate in a pub because I knew the staff were getting positively fucked in the process.

    23. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Since you didn't provide the information to back up your statement, I will provide it for you. Minimum wage has been above $10 in today's dollars for about 3 years in the late 1960s. And a resulting decade of runaway inflation was the result, with home mortgage interest rates of 15% and Credit card interest rates in the 30s. At least credit card interest was tax deductible back then.
      As for the wages in other countries, in Switzerland, they pay $18.82 per hour, a Big mac costs $6.82. Wage is over 125% higher, and a Big Mac is 42% higher.
      In Norway, the wage is $15.40 and the cost of a Big Mac is 20% higher.
      In Sweden, the wage is $12.32 and the cost of a Big Mac is 7% higher.
      In Denmark, the wage is $14.00 and the cost of a Big Mac is 6% higher.
      Some places, the wage is less than in the U.S.
      In Israel, the wage is $6.05 and the cost of a Big Mac is 4% less.
      The data is pretty consistent. The higher the minimum wage, the higher the cost of goods and services.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    24. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      How does that relate to anything? If you were happy with your financial security before the other person got a raise why is it suddenly a concern now?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    25. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

      It's fine to want a good wage for yourself, of course. It's less fine to grumble about how people on minimum wage have managed a higher percentage gain than you have.

      Their income != your buying power. How much has inflation gone up over that same period?

      US income inequality is a hot topic these days. It's good to see the people struggling at the bottom doing a little better - but if all the higher income jobs also saw the same gains, that wouldn't be addressing the inequality at all.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    26. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      "Is it wrong that someone gets ahead due to study and hard work?"

      This is a canard. It happens sometimes but it's the rare exception.

    27. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That's because there are not a whole lot of jobs that are worth paying someone with no job skills minimum wage to do...and people want there to be even fewer of them.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    28. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by slew · · Score: 1

      Personally, I favor an MGI, and I think the money should come from corporate taxes. But there are more loopholes than there are dollars.

      Curious, what is your problem with the currently enacted Earned Income Credit vs a hypothetical Minimum Guaranteed Income scheme?

      Do you object to the level of reimbursement the EIC? (phaseout after $31K)
      Do you object to the incentives in the EIC for a person to earn more to receive more benefits? (vs a typical MGI implementation where it doesn't matter how much you earn if you are below the absolute level)
      Do you object to the fact that it factors in the number of dependents?
      Do you object that it draws employees into the workforce which results in an increase in payroll taxes which offsets the cost of the program?
      Do you object to the fact that you actually have to file a tax return to claim it?
      Do you object to the current level of fraud in the program?

      Or

      Do you simply object to the fact that is a USA created construct (originally enacted during the Ford Administration in 1975), not a new fangled European construct?

    29. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apart from the profanity, this comment so far is the only one that made sense to me. The whole, "people are unhappy at other people's gain" is not a way to run a society. A prison maybe. But not a society.

    30. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      more bullshit.

      they don't unionize because they've been brainwashed by the 'extreme right' that soshalizm is baaaad! jesus would cry if we went socialist, even a little bit.

      they are afraid of losing their jobs and big corp USA keeps putting fear into union folks by the same old tactics they used about 100 years ago. same shit, different day.

      the workers are not smarter or dumber; they are manipulated and scared into working against their own best interests.

      ie, the republicans continue to fuck us all. unions, baaaad! soshalizm, baaaad! more money for ceo's, goooood!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    31. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The typical union ploy is to base union scale for a particular industry on minimum wage. Then they lobby politicians to raise the minimum wage to raise their own pay. Seems like they have figured out how to work the system well enough, at least where unions aren't being run out of town.

    32. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Is it wrong to become financially secure? Is it wrong that someone gets ahead due to study and hard work? Is it wrong to want to be able to afford to put money away for retirement instead of becoming a burden on society? I don't aspire to be a millionaire; I just want enough to pay off my mortgage survive two or three months should I become unemployed.

      If you're having that much trouble paying your mortgage, then why did you buy such an expensive house? I'm just curious because 50% of Americans are behind on one or more bills. In my own experience with many levels of society, people tend to outspend their means. Over my career I have seen many people get a promotion to full time that included a near doubling of salary, and damned if almost all of them didn't show up with a brand new car less than a week later... Getting that windfall may very well not be too good for the long term financial health of the individuals who got it, especially if this company folds or lays them off...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    33. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they're afraid of their store going belly-up:

      http://rense.com/general65/union.htm

      Wal-mart, at the very least, isn't afraid to wipe out an entire store to stop a union. McDonald's may not have it so easy, what with their franchise model . . . don't think they'd hesitate to do that at a corporate store though.

    34. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      If you're an engineer, you should return your "degree", because you're clearly not numerate (don't worry if you don't understand that word).

      If someone makes $1 and they get a 40% raise, they now make $1.40. If you make $5 and you get a 25% raise, you now make $6.25. Guess who's got a higher amount? Yup, you got an extra $1.25 against the other guy's 40c. Think of all the lollipops you could have with all that extra buying power!

    35. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 0

      You know that the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in over two decades, right? So if your wages are doing even more poorly than the minimum wage, you're getting fucked and hard

      Yes. And he's getting fucked hard by the same people who raise the minimum wage: progressives.

    36. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I don't want those people to be "equal" to me. I want to always be better than them.

    37. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Curious, what is your problem with the currently enacted Earned Income Credit vs a hypothetical Minimum Guaranteed Income scheme?

      They solve completely different problems. EITC is vs. minimum wage, not MGI.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    38. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, of COURSE you haven't had to work, you have enough wives to count as an entire car!

    39. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Nutria · · Score: 1

      This is a canard. It happens sometimes but it's the rare exception.

      A comment that incredibly *wrong* belongs on YouTube.

      (Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are the exception to the rule. Them convincing kids to drop out and write JavaScript are a big reason why so many sites suck so badly.)

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    40. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by RyoShin · · Score: 2

      Hmm. I'm not sold, as that's an opinion piece that links to an opinion piece as the source, and it smells like someone trying to fight the $15/hr idea by linking it to racism.

      Buuuut a lot of things around that time had links to racism (and not just black people), so it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. Even if it were, it's irrelevant to the push for a higher min wage being good or bad.

    41. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The minimum wage was rooted in racism. The argument was something like that blacks were so inferior that they were willing to live in squalor, and that whites needed to be protected from that.

      What an even-more-racist-than-reality interpretation you've found yourself there. The argument was that Blacks had been fucked over so badly that squalor was an upgrade for many of them, and that whites needed to be protected from the influx of cheap labor that would result in permitting them to work for any amount of money. And you can see the same situation today with our open border (despite "efforts") with Mexico; we shit on Mexico, and then Mexicans come up here to get a piece of the better life that we've built partially on exploiting their country. Of course, there's less of them doing that now than there have been at other times, because there's less prosperity here than there has been at other times, but it's still a thing. Virtually all of the restaurant jobs that used to go to young white men are now going to Mexicans who are older than they are and have more life (and cooking) experience, for example. That used to be a great source of pitiful amounts of money for people who didn't know anything but flipping burgers.

      The minimum wage was originally intended to be a living wage, because creating conditions where people are willing to work for less than that is just a form of slavery. Perhaps we could call it "Monetary Fractional Slavery".

      To avoid it being slavery, you have to avoid it being mandatory. This is why I favor a MGI which would cover the basic costs of living. Of course, one commie plot just leads to the next; if the government is managing these costs then it's going to look for ways to reduce these costs, which usually means nationalizing the utilities. And we can't have the requirements for life provided at-cost, that'd be Un-'merican! Except, of course, there are actually many municipal utilities throughout the USA, even in the most conservative of bastions, and most of them are quite efficient and functional. People don't even know what they're railing against.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    42. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      It's hard to see who's fucking you, when it's in the ass like that.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    43. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wages I need for a decent living are $100 an hour. Can't we just raise the minimum wage to that?

    44. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Apart from the profanity, this comment so far is the only one that made sense to me.

      It seems like you understood it okay in spite of that. I know some people are turned off by profanity, but some people can't get turned on without it. Wait, that came out wrong...

      Seriously though, a clever comic once said "Fuck is my chisel" and it is in that sense that I used it here.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's hard to see who's fucking you, when it's in the ass like that.

      It's even harder if you're too busy shouting about who's doing it to even turn around and look and find out who it is.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    46. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yes. And he's getting fucked hard by the same people who raise the minimum wage: progressives.

      It's the conservatives that consistently oppose raising the minimum wage to even meet inflation, let alone to actually provide a living wage, which was the original intent of the thing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    47. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      The standard seems to be quitting your job for a better offer, leaving on good terms, then coming back. You have the experience, can answer the interview questions correctly, get past the HR filter easier, and can negotiate a higher salary.

      People who don't know this get screwed hard. But how do some people know this and others do not?

      This is actually a question directly for you, drinkypoo (153816)

      I would say that laie_techie (883464) is not "playing the game". And I admit that's a ridiculous thing to do, but if you decide to be otherwise-employed rather than self-employed, then you decide to play the game by those rules. And if you play the game by coming to work and accepting the meager raise you are offered, then you are playing a terrible game.

      I left my job for a raise in the area of $15k to $20k to be general. My management chain would have kept me for more. But I left, making it clear that a raise, plus back pay, was the only way to keep me.

      One person out of probably 60 or more got an immediate raise because of that. Not me, the guy who still worked there.

      And finally, 25% of a lot more is better than 40% of minimum wage.

    48. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      People who don't know this get screwed hard. But how do some people know this and others do not?

      Most people are trained not to know it. I was just thinking today while I was driving around running errands about how everything they told me in school about the fundamental nature of life was a lie. My mother, too. My father didn't tell me much. I was taught a whole bunch of things about how the system works which are just not true, and anyone willing to look around them and pay attention can see that they aren't true. As a child, that's difficult; it's difficult to do, and thus difficult to be. Today, of course, the internet has made it much easier. When I was a child, the internet was still a toy, research project, and used between universities. I grew up at the same time it did, it's been fascinating and it's made me a little money, but sadly I was right on the curve instead of being ahead of it in one of those sorts of null-zones. (Hey, I can still be glad I wasn't born into a great depression...)

      So, the bullshit is strong. Of course people don't know the things they really need to know. They're taught bullshit. Work hard, stay in school, always play by the stated rules even when they are bullshit, that's the best path to success! As long as you measure success by a life of drudgery.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    49. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      they don't unionize because they've been brainwashed by the 'extreme right' that soshalizm is baaaad!

      Unions were a critical part of the whole idea of "worker's rights" gaining traction. But the problem with hierarchies like that is that they can be subverted. What we really need is to get union-like protections for all workers, and Unions put relatively little effort into that. Sometimes they put a little effort into raising the minimum wage, but only if it will help them justify raising their own wages — to much higher than the minimum.

      Unionizing will help some workers some of the time, but gaining the same kinds of benefits for all workers will help all workers all of the time. Shouldn't that be our goal? More unionization is a piecemeal way to go about that.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    50. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      The data also shows per capita consumption of cheese is directly correlated with the number of people who die by suffocation from getting tangled in their bedsheets. What you've just done is proven why correlation is not causation.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    51. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      While I disagreed with you earlier, I think you should have pointed out " a well-intentioned though economically irrational policy change that few Democrats realize has a troubling racial history."

      Who cares if it has a racial history, and who the fuck of all fucks of a person who could give a fuck if that had something to do with "the Canadian province of British Columbia, with the intent and effect of pricing Japanese immigrants out of jobs in the lumbering industry." Actual Question Mark.

      Carrie Sheffield is functionally retarded. And I mean that in the most positive of terms, meaning that he/she can earn a salary by not having to defend one word that he/she has ever written. Or maybe that makes the rest of us retarded.

      I'm starting to feel like I missed a calling, and there is no need for the countless plebeians who agree to sound off because fuck all of you in the eyeballs.

      "Paid Not Being A Slave Wage" is a really good term for minimum wage, but it has its triggers.

      For the record, I believe in the difference between a minimum wage and a living wage. They are distinct.

    52. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      For the record, I believe in the difference between a minimum wage and a living wage. They are distinct.

      They are distinct concepts, but the idea of a minimum wage which is also a living wage is a completely valid one.

      The only way in which you can not have that situation and not be subjecting your people to de facto slavery is to institute a MGI, so that people don't actually have to work. Then they can work for any amount upon which they can agree with an employer. It also works better if you have proper national health care, so that there is no dispute over who pays for your health care. It's the state.

      Of course, your state has to actually work for either of these things to work. Ours works, but not for us, so we couldn't do these things. We'd have to get our government in hand first.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    53. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So if your wages are doing even more poorly than the minimum wage, you're getting fucked and hard

      There's a lot of it going on driving the "middle class" to the bottom.

    54. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If you're having that much trouble paying your mortgage, then why did you buy such an expensive house?

      Bubble, bubble toil and trouble :)
      Many housing markets are insane. When there is more profit in enormous places sometimes that's all that gets built as new housing.

    55. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Obviously there are two forces at work. One is to drive the price of skilled jobs down and another is to make unskilled jobs an alternative to crime.

    56. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... it's the rare exception.

      No, it's common: It's called the middle-class and it's not automatic that everyone will join it, even with half the population getting a degree. Study isn't the only road to success: A good tradesman can earn as much as a good educated professional.

      Being wealthy is the rare exception because it is not based solely on sweat and skill.

    57. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and Switzerland is, according to the stats, the happiest country on earth.

    58. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

              - Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act (16 June 1933)

      Looks like you're wrong.

      --
      C|N>K
    59. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Those aren't "forces", they are intentions. Everybody across the political spectrum shares those intentions.

      The delusion of progressives is that (1) they are the only ones having those intentions, and (2) that the policies they propose actually help achieve those goals, when both economic theory and decades of experience show them to be ineffective or harmful.

    60. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      It's the conservatives that consistently oppose raising the minimum wage to even meet inflation,

      Correct.

      let alone to actually provide a living wage, which was the original intent of the thing.

      You're correct, but you're leaving out half the story. The original intent of minimum wage was to provide higher wages to white workers by pricing black workers out of the market. It was a racist policy intended to hurt blacks and benefit whites. It didn't even cost jobs, it just condemned lots of people to permanent unemployment.

    61. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the English lesson, but I was trying to dumb things down a bit for a wider audience. Now substitute your word - what does it actually change and in what way does it suggest my statement is incorrect in any way at all? How does that make your second paragraph relevant at all?

    62. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      The argument was that Blacks had been fucked over so badly that squalor was an upgrade for many of them, and that whites needed to be protected from the influx of cheap labor that would result in permitting them to work for any amount of money.

      So, in different words, you agree.

      The minimum wage was originally intended to be a living wage, because creating conditions where people are willing to work for less than that is just a form of slavery.

      The rationalizations and justifications you people come up with for your racism and bigotry are fascinating.

      To avoid it being slavery, you have to avoid it being mandatory. This is why I favor a MGI which would cover the basic costs of living. Of course, one commie plot just leads to the next;

      You're ranting incoherently. MGI has nothing to do with "communism". It's not even worth picking apart the rest of your drivel.

    63. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The original intent of minimum wage was to provide higher wages to white workers by pricing black workers out of the market.

      It doesn't do that, though. The jobs need to get done, and if nobody knows how to do the job, someone will train them or the world will change so that the jobs don't need to get done.

      It doesn't matter how high you raise the minimum wage, people would still hire minorities, because as soon as you raise the minimum wage, the white people start demanding more.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    64. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I'm not sold, as that's an opinion piece that links to an opinion piece as the source, and it smells like someone trying to fight the $15/hr idea by linking it to racism.

      Well, I'm not going to give you a complete reader on the history of the minimum wage. If you want a single academic source from someone who really knows what he is talking about, read Thomas Sowell, a black economist.

      Buuuut a lot of things around that time had links to racism (and not just black people), so it wouldn't surprise me if it's true.

      A lot of things today have links to racism, in particular among progressives, because now as then, their view is that blacks are inferior to whites and require the help of government to succeed. The details of the pseudo-scientific justifications then and now differ, but the consequences of progressive policies are as bad now as they were then.

      Even if it were, it's irrelevant to the push for a higher min wage being good or bad.

      It is quite relevant, because the purpose and effect of minimum wage laws still is the same now as it was then: to price low-skilled and non-union workers out of the market. Of course, since politics has changed slightly, these days the political propaganda surrounding the minimum wage is slightly different.

    65. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      It doesn't do that, though. The jobs need to get done, and if nobody knows how to do the job, someone will train them or the world will change so that the jobs don't need to get done.

      You're postulating a highly inelastic demand for low-skilled labor, which is ludicrous. In reality, many businesses will simply close, or they will automate, or they will raise prices.

      It doesn't matter how high you raise the minimum wage, people would still hire minorities, because as soon as you raise the minimum wage, the white people start demanding more.

      (Wow, you really are a racist through and through, aren't you?)

      So you're saying that the real effect of minimum wage is that everybody's wages go up. Well, then prices go up accordingly. How does anybody win from that?

    66. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how high you raise the minimum wage, people would still hire minorities, because as soon as you raise the minimum wage, the white people start demanding more.

      (Wow, you really are a racist through and through, aren't you?)

      You're the one telling me about how the policy was created by white people so that they could protect their higher salaries, now you're telling me that explaining the mechanism is racist? Make up your fucking mind.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    67. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      The stated intention of minimum wage laws is to "make unskilled jobs an alternative to crime". The actual force it creates is one that drives unskilled workers out of the labor market entirely and thereby increases crime. So, the force is opposite to the intent.

      "Forces" and "intentions" are different things.

    68. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Generally speaking, person's buying power is not substantially diminished by the increase of pay for lowest paid workers, even if they make only marginally more than whatever the new minimum wage is supposed to be. This is because although the the number of such workers may seem high, the actual money involved in paying them is minor compared to the amount of money spent paying higher income people, kind of like the Pareto Principle, or 80-20 rule, but with different percentages. Because of the relatively small amount of the GDP that the lowest wage earners actually represent, and the *HUGE* income disparity between low income and high income earners, increasing the pay of those at the very bottom does not end up having anything anywhere near a linear relationship to an increase in overall cost of living. It is affected, of course... but nowhere near what the skeptics of increasing minimum wage might lead you to believe.

      If your buying power has actually gone down while minimum wage has gone up, it is because your salary has not kept up with cost of living increases than because of minimum wage hikes.

    69. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      You're the one telling me about how the policy was created by white people so that they could protect their higher salaries

      No, I was telling your that the policy was created by progressives:

      Yes. And he's getting fucked hard by the same people who raise the minimum wage: progressives.

      Now, while progressives are largely both white and advocate racist policies, the converse isn't true: most whites are neither progressives nor do they advocate racist policies.

      Your thinking again betrays your deep-seated racism, namely generalizing from some members of a "race" (here, white progressives) to all of them.

    70. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      So you entered the workforce in the mid 2000s, when it was $5.15, and are unhappy it got up to $7.25. Your 25% raise is probably the result of 2%ish raises over a period of roughly a decade.

      Meanwhile the "40% rise" number is pretty much entirely a result of Congress ignoring poor people?

      What happens is that inflation goes up. Since the minimum wage does not go up, it's buying power is reduced. Then every decade or two Congress has to go back and update the minimum wage to take into account the full decade's worth of inflation. They generally don;t make up for all of it, sop the actual buying power of the $7.25 minimum wage is less then the 1968 version ($8.24 in 2014 dollars). Heck, it would take an 8% jump to make up for inflation since 2009.

      But don't worry. In 5 to 10 years they'll do another 25% raise of it, not index the new number to inflation to inflation, piss off a bunch of people who didn't get 25% raises that year (and don't realize that minimum wage earners hadn't gotten a Federal raise since 2009), and generally turn what should be a low-drama automatic process into a high-drama, high-BS debate about the Future of the Republic.

      One of the things I loved about Ohio's one-term Governor Ted Strickland is that he linked his minimum wage hike to inflation, so that instead of being an opportunity for politicians to pretentiously pontificate, it just kinda happens.

    71. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      How does that relate to anything? If you were happy with your financial security before the other person got a raise why is it suddenly a concern now?

      My financial situation becomes less secure each time minimum wage increases faster than my own salary. Every time minimum wage increases, the cost of goods go up (do you really expect companies to swallow the cost of paying employees?). As the cost of goods goes up faster than my salary, I am able to buy less and less.

      Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I don't' earn a 6-figure salary despite 15 years as a software engineer. I am not rich enough to eat these increases to minimum wage without my own salary matching on a percentage basis. My latest increase works out to $1 / hour (assuming a 40-hour work week). Minimum wage is jumping $7 / hour.

    72. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      It's fine to want a good wage for yourself, of course. It's less fine to grumble about how people on minimum wage have managed a higher percentage gain than you have.

      Their income != your buying power. How much has inflation gone up over that same period?

      Let's see, gasoline costs 3 times as much, eggs cost double, bread is almost double.

      US income inequality is a hot topic these days. It's good to see the people struggling at the bottom doing a little better - but if all the higher income jobs also saw the same gains, that wouldn't be addressing the inequality at all.

      That's fine and good, but shouldn't that be going after the upper class instead of the middle class? The upper class earns enough that they can handle it. I am in the middle class.

      Most of our engineering jobs pay more because of the skills required. I paid dearly for a college education so that I could be financially stable. If an unskilled job (such as flipping burgers) pays as well as a skilled job (writing software), where's the incentive to get an education?

    73. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      But I don't want those people to be "equal" to me. I want to always be better than them.

      I want hard work and dedication to be rewarded, not punished. I want people earning minimum wage to learn a skill so they can progress. I want them to be equal by raising them up, not by lowering me down.

    74. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      No, it's common: It's called the middle-class and it's not automatic that everyone will join it, even with half the population getting a degree. Study isn't the only road to success: A good tradesman can earn as much as a good educated professional.

      Being wealthy is the rare exception because it is not based solely on sweat and skill.

      If I had mod points and hadn't already commented in the thread, I would mod you up.

    75. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      If you're having that much trouble paying your mortgage, then why did you buy such an expensive house? I'm just curious because 50% of Americans are behind on one or more bills. In my own experience with many levels of society, people tend to outspend their means. Over my career I have seen many people get a promotion to full time that included a near doubling of salary, and damned if almost all of them didn't show up with a brand new car less than a week later... Getting that windfall may very well not be too good for the long term financial health of the individuals who got it, especially if this company folds or lays them off...

      That's just it, my house isn't that expensive. I bought it when it was worth $150k and I had what appeared to be a stable job for nearly a year. The market readjusted, there was a hostile take-over at the company which cost me my job, financial burden of legally bringing in wife in country, then a son arrived. Gas prices doubled but I was upside down in the house so I couldn't move closer to the new office (nearly 30 minutes additional commute). Perfect storm that I'm still tring to recover from.

    76. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

      Let's see, gasoline costs 3 times as much, eggs cost double, bread is almost double.

      At a rough 3% CPI index, it'd take 24 years for consumer prices to double. If that's the sort of time frame you're referring to, and your wages have risen only 25%, then yeah - you're getting screwed - but we already knew that.

      shouldn't that be going after the upper class instead of the middle class?

      There's certainly a good argument for that, yeah. Many feel upper-class incomes should be reducing, while lower & middle incomes should increase - but you'd still expect lower-class incomes to increase more than your own. It's notable that concerns about minimum-wage increases often come from slightly higher incomes who are afraid of ending up on minimum wage themselves as a result, even if their own wage doesn't decrease.

      That said, there's a lot of evidence behind your views, so you're not alone, but perhaps minimum-wage earners aren't the ones deserving of complaints.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    77. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      So you entered the workforce in the mid 2000s, when it was $5.15, and are unhappy it got up to $7.25. Your 25% raise is probably the result of 2%ish raises over a period of roughly a decade.

      Close, I entered the workforce in July 2000, minimum wage of $5.00 / hour. Most of my raises have been based on inflation, with me jumping jobs a couple of times to earn more.

      Meanwhile the "40% rise" number is pretty much entirely a result of Congress ignoring poor people?

      The problem is I earn too much to be helped out by Democrats and too little to benefit from the Republican loopholes. I'm in the diminishing middle class that no one is afraid of attacking. You can't tax the poor more because they don't have the money. You can't tax the rich more, because of trickle-down economics (not to mention the rich make bigger contributions to the political parties).

      What happens is that inflation goes up. Since the minimum wage does not go up, it's buying power is reduced. Then every decade or two Congress has to go back and update the minimum wage to take into account the full decade's worth of inflation. They generally don;t make up for all of it, sop the actual buying power of the $7.25 minimum wage is less then the 1968 version ($8.24 in 2014 dollars). Heck, it would take an 8% jump to make up for inflation since 2009.

      But don't worry. In 5 to 10 years they'll do another 25% raise of it, not index the new number to inflation to inflation, piss off a bunch of people who didn't get 25% raises that year (and don't realize that minimum wage earners hadn't gotten a Federal raise since 2009), and generally turn what should be a low-drama automatic process into a high-drama, high-BS debate about the Future of the Republic.

      One of the things I loved about Ohio's one-term Governor Ted Strickland is that he linked his minimum wage hike to inflation, so that instead of being an opportunity for politicians to pretentiously pontificate, it just kinda happens.

      I actually agree that minimum wage should be tied to inflation. I just also happen to wish that my salary was defined as a multiple of minimum wages instead of a set amount. People in this thread seem to think I'm upset about minimum wage increases, when in reality I am upset that my own salary doesn't keep up. I'm upset that in our field it seems you have to switch companies in order to earn more. I'm upset that bonuses are almost unheard of. I'm upset that companies generally don't offer a pension. I'm actually lucky that my company does a partial match in our 401(k).

    78. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      The way the world's going the middle is screwed.

      The thing about a "smaller world" the internet/heap flights/free trade/etc. have created, is that it means that anybody who wants the best can bid on the top guy in the field (or at least the guy in the field with the best marketing), which runs his salary up. Everyone else is not the best, so instead of being considered very good (and worth it because they're the top guy in the City, and you can;t hire the top guy from London or NYC in Poughkeepsie) they're considered mediocre (because they're compared to that top guy). They are also competing with the entire globe.

      As far as I can tell the only real solutions involve massive tax-and-spend-style programs, because that way you tax the fuck out of that top guy, and spend the money of free shit that everyone can use. The Germans, Danes, and other Northern Europeans do this and it works fine. Democrats tend to shy away from those programs because they'd cost a whole hell of a lot of money (and the Democratic Party is obsessed with balanced budgets, and incapable of raising taxes significantly), Republicans tend to oppose all new social spending on principle (while claiming all old social spending, particularly that on seniors, is inviolable).

      So you get programs like ObamaCare, which make life better for the very poor (because paying for enough nice things to cover the very poor is easy to budget for), plus a few selected middle-income groups that sound really sympathetic on TV (ie: little old ladies who can't insurance due to skin cancer, kids just out of college getting on their mom's insurance, etc.).

    79. Re: Those making more than new minimum salary by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      Let's see, gasoline costs 3 times as much, eggs cost double, bread is almost double.

      At a rough 3% CPI index, it'd take 24 years for consumer prices to double. If that's the sort of time frame you're referring to, and your wages have risen only 25%, then yeah - you're getting screwed - but we already knew that.

      According to US Inflation Calculator, the CPI has risen by 39.7% from 2000 to 2014. Note that this is an index; individual items may have a higher or lower inflation rate. That is why I mentioned a few specific products. When I entered the workforce after college, gasoline was about 90 cents a gallon; it's now $2.80.

  9. What an Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hope he runs his company into the ground.

    1. Re:What an Idiot by kuzb · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, how dare he try to put his employees first - even ahead of himself. What an asshole!

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    2. Re:What an Idiot by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 0

      This is why you put on your kid's oxygen mask before your own. And if you don't, you're not it to be a parent.

    3. Re:What an Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dickhead.

      Anoxia can hit very quickly. So you won't be any use to your stupid kids as you'll be passed out, and both of you will die. Put on your own mask. As a functioning adult you'll be able to do it much faster than the kids. Then help the kids. Fussing with the kids first will get you (and them) killed.

    4. Re:What an Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you assist others before securing your own mask, ergo ignoring the instructions of the flight crew, you're not fit to travel via plane.

  10. Just Like Walmart by onkelonkel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Same thing happened at walmart when they bumped their lowest paid workers up to the minimum wage.
     
    http://business.financialpost.com/news/retail-marketing/wal-marts-pay-raise-creates-thousands-of-unhappy-workers-its-pitting-people-against-each-other
     
    Senior workers got no raise and feel disrespected.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    1. Re:Just Like Walmart by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. What the fuck does the "minimum" in "minimum wage" mean?

      Has the US redefined the English language?

    2. Re:Just Like Walmart by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      Translation: Selfish assholes throw a temper tantrum that someone they feel is "beneath" them might actually have a chance at supporting themselves with hard work.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    3. Re:Just Like Walmart by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Is walmart really hard work (I don't know I don't go there), but seems easy compared with something like being a landscaper or farmer.

    4. Re:Just Like Walmart by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Some people think that if they do a good job for a while they should be rewarded with a raise. When they see someone else who hasn't done anything special getting the raise, they feel cheated. Selfish? I don't think so.

    5. Re:Just Like Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do. What does it matter if your good-for-nothing coworker gets a raise? It was not taken out of your pay. For you nothing materially changed.

      No self-respecting person needs to ensure others are worse-off than they are to feel good about themselves.

    6. Re:Just Like Walmart by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Is walmart really hard work (I don't know I don't go there), but seems easy compared with something like being a landscaper or farmer.

      Depends on the department. I know someone who worked in the produce department and it was apparently a better workout than going to the gym. One has to keep the food properly stocked - not too much, not too little. He would often have to hand carry many boxes of bananas a day - which are apparently heavy. He lost over 50 pounds in less than 6 months. All for ~ $10/hour.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    7. Re:Just Like Walmart by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Same thing happened at walmart when they bumped their lowest paid workers up to the minimum wage.
        [...]
      Senior workers got no raise and feel disrespected.

      But that's not minimum wage's fault, or minimum wage increases' fault. That's Wal-Mart's fault. And in a societal context, it's our fault for letting Wal-Mart exist, because these workers can't just quit and go to work for someone who will pay them better; Wal-Mart already put them out of business. Hey, that's fine, that's progress; but failing to give your other workers a pay differential so that you can profit more when you could pay them more and still profit very much is business as usual — which is to say morally bankrupt.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Just Like Walmart by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. What the fuck does the "minimum" in "minimum wage" mean?

      Minimum as in "legally mandated minimum"

      Has the US redefined the English language?

      You must be new. Not just here. That's part of how law works. They define and redefine language.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Just Like Walmart by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      No. Translation: People who have been doing the exact same job for months, if not years, are not happy when inexperienced idiots get paid more.

      Some workers also said they suspect their hours are being cut and annual raises reduced to cover the cost of the wage increase for newer workers. s. Along with bumping up the minimum wage, it increased the amount workers receive when promoted, boosted pay for some managers and raised the maximum pay for all hourly positions.

      If my hours were cut, I'd feel that. If the corporate response were "Wal-Mart denies that and says itâ(TM)s taking steps to ensure all employees have an opportunity to move into higher-paying jobs" I'd object. Not just because of grammar.

      And, because reading comprehension is beyond your grade level, go fuck yourself with a fiery cactus. I assume these words mean things to you, and that you can execute them as directed.

    10. Re:Just Like Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the language is just fine.

      The government decided that the minimum wage had not been adjusted in so long that it wasn't actually a livable wage, by anyone's standards. So they raised the minimum wage.

      The problems for Walmart was that their senior employees were making a small, but livable wage, while their junior employees were "working on welfare". While they had a job, they couldn't meet their daily needs of food and rent. Either they were living in a home where others partially sustained them, or they were pulling checks from both Walmart and the government's welfare system.

      Many people were upset to find out that Walmart's employees were being sustained by government tax dollars. Walmart took the "high" ground (note the sarcasm) and stated they were doing nothing illegal, and without Walmart's support there would be higher unemployment. The public sentiment was bad enough that the wage was eventually raised.

    11. Re:Just Like Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is walmart really hard work (I don't know I don't go there), but seems easy compared with something like being a landscaper or farmer.

      Depends. My son worked at Walmart one summer while in HS - in a west-facing auto service bay moving tire and battery inventory, in Texas heat. Hard but valuable experience for him: he decided he didn't want that sort of shit and got himself a national merit scholarship followed by a summa cum laude STEM degree from a top school and a good job.

  11. Need to integrate this into our economic models by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Utility is evidently not just a function of the job, the market conditions (outside options) and pay. Employee A is content with his or her salary given the conditions in the market so continues to work for the firm. Then a different employee gets a raise. Market conditions have not changed, but employee A is no longer content with his or her salary. This is one reason why firms like to keep salary information confidential.

    1. Re:Need to integrate this into our economic models by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      I think you must have made a typo there somewhere, I tried to understand what you were saying, but I'm unable to reconcile it with all of our economic models based on rational actors. Since clearly the economic models are correct, whatever you're proposing is just wrong.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  12. Heart's in the right place... by The-Ixian · · Score: 2

    It's kind of weird the way this was implemented but I like the notion.

    I think that if you are willing to work, you should be able to support yourself comfortably. I am not sure that absolutely equal pay for everyone is exactly right although I do think that people who quit over having someone else make as much as them is pretty petty and entitled.

    I would personally not care one bit if a fast food worker got paid as much as me or more.... good for them, I wouldn't want to do that job so why would I complain?

    --
    My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    1. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Spy+Handler · · Score: 2

      I would personally not care one bit if a fast food worker got paid as much as me or more.... good for them, I wouldn't want to do that job so why would I complain?

      There were no fast food workers at that firm.

      A better comparison would be someone at YOUR company, who's a newer hire than you, has less experience and can't code as well as you, and basically just clocks in and out without contributing much, and because of a SJW CEO's action now makes the same salary as you.

    2. Re:Heart's in the right place... by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      I am not sure that absolutely equal pay for everyone is exactly right although I do think that people who quit over having someone else make as much as them is pretty petty and entitled.

      Say you are a college graduate who has worked for the company for 5 years, including the startup where you barely made a living wage, work ten hour days (often weekends) and have little time off. What if a high school dropout who just got hired in the mail room working 8 hour days 5 days a week makes the same as you? I know I would be pissed.

    3. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most people do not share your opinion. Most say; I've worked long and hard to get where I am. My job requires knowledge and skill developed over time. I work very hard. Why should I make no more than the new guy with lesser knowledge or skill, who hasn't worked as hard and may not work as hard now.

      Most people will either be rightly annoyed by this, or will stop working nearly as hard. Paying more while lowering productivity and raising employee dissatisfaction is never good for a company.

      You're probably use to people saying that you're views are a bit odd.

    4. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I think that if you are willing to work, you should be able to support yourself comfortably."

      That's the whole point behind the minimum wage.
      If minimum wage is too little for that, well, that's another story.

      In communist countries, at least where I lived before '89. As soon as you graduated from school, regardless highschool, 8th grade etc. you would be guaranteed a job. And even if you were the lowest rung factory worker, the pay was still decent. The only problem ... once assigned, you would be stuck there for the rest of your life. At best going a few steps up the ladder, but that's it.

    5. Re:Heart's in the right place... by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are right, bad analogy.

      But anyway, as long as I don't take a pay cut... why would I care?

      It is none of my business what other people make... as long as I have what I need to get by, I couldn't care less who makes what.

      I am not better than anyone else. I learn new things from all kinds of different people every day no matter their age....

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    6. Re:Heart's in the right place... by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      if everyone around you gets a raise, and you dont. you ARE taking a pay cut (in buying power) as costs will go up on general goods

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    7. Re:Heart's in the right place... by eulernet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a saying in France that says:

      "the heart is on the left, but the wallet is on the right."

      While I partly agree with you, I would like to share my own experience.

      20 years ago, I worked for a game company where the boss wanted full equality, so he paid everybody around the same salary.
      While the approach is humanist, in the end it did more bad than good.

      There was a huge trust between members, but beginners were terrible and were slowing down the experienced people.
      I wholeheartedly loved working for this company, but it collapsed after finishing the first game.

      The lessons are:

      1) pay people as low as you can, but as much as they need to live a comfortable life (and won't want to quit your company). Everybody has different needs, and I don't count "home cinema" as a need !
      2) pay well your better workers, don't count on their faithfulness especially if you fire people randomly
      3) be frank. People (especially the awful workers) are obsessed why they don't earn as much as their colleagues. Tell them why they don't deserve a higher salary.

    8. Re:Heart's in the right place... by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      If everyone got the same grades in school how hard would everyone work? Personally, I work as hard as I'm able to on everything, but a huge percentage of people would take it as an opportunity to party more (no need to study for a test if you get the same A as everyone else).

    9. Re:Heart's in the right place... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      You should stop worrying about other people: happiness comes from within. Are you earning enough with the correct balance to live a life you enjoy? If yes, then go and live that life and enjoy it! If no, then go get another job. If you're enjoying your life it does not detract from it if someone else too es enjoying theirs.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    10. Re:Heart's in the right place... by cas2000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      send this guy back for more brainwashing.

      you're supposed to resent people beneath you getting anything at all, despise them for being worthless losers. poverty is not a circumstance that people find themselves in, it's a moral failing caused by their own failure as human beings. they deserve to be fucked over.

      you're also supposed to envy people above you, their success proves that they are sublime beings of great moral worth who also deserve what they get. and if you worked harder and longer and stuck your nose ever further up your boss's arse you too might one day deserve it.

      didn't you watch TV at all? or are you just immune to the non-stop re-education programming?

    11. Re:Heart's in the right place... by cas2000 · · Score: 1

      > I wholeheartedly loved working for this company, but it collapsed
      > after finishing the first game.

      this is SO different to what happens in most game studios now, where all the workers are fired as soon as the game is finished...collectively, they've cost the company 10 or 20 million to make a game that raked in hundreds of millions in sales, now they can fuck off and starve and default on their mortgage while management tries to get a new deal for a new game. some of the lucky ones might get re-hired for the next project.

    12. Re:Heart's in the right place... by clorkster · · Score: 1

      I would personally not care one bit if a fast food worker got paid as much as me or more.... good for them, I wouldn't want to do that job so why would I complain?

      The point of the thing is not your want of a particular job. If all you were able to do was flip burgers, then you'd find yourself in one of two situations to earn your living. Either flipping burgers, or demanding that those who are able to do more give what they earned to you. Essentially the philosophy here is that ability deserves punishment and not reward.

    13. Re:Heart's in the right place... by eulernet · · Score: 2

      I did a lot of game companies at the time, and people quit not because they were fired, but because they were burned out.

      When you have death marches during 6 or 12 months, delivering the game becomes meaningless because you sacrificed so much. It's a matter of pride, but the company doesn't care about you in the end.

      The best people quit to find a better company (such a company is quite rare, I must say), and only the incompetent ones remain.
      In the end, all valuable experience is gone, and the company's only assets is the game and the worst of the original team.

    14. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you should be able to support yourself comfortably

      However much you earn, "comfortable" is always about 10% more.

    15. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) pay people as low as you can, but as much as they need to live a comfortable life

      Henry Ford would disagree:

      There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.

      He understood the economy. Giving workers money invigorates the local economy, which gives the local population wealth, which lets them buy cars.

      He got more customers thanks to paying more in wages.

    16. Re:Heart's in the right place... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An even better example would be that if you started off at 30k. Busted your ass, expanding your value to a company effectively, doing everything you are supposed to be doing to further your position in life, and after 4... 6...10... years you were making 70k a year. Then one day, a new person, just starting off in the same exact place you were at 10 years ago is making the same pay that you are now.

      You can frame it as petty and say that it shouldn't bother the other workers, however if you do, then you are probably too naive to understand why it isn't petty. You also probably are either just starting your career, or you are someone who is an underachiever that thinks they deserve the world.

      This is the problem: You just took 10 years "blood sweat and tears" and said they have no value.

      The company did take something away from the other associates by doing this, they took away the EARNED value of their position.

      There is a real problem in the US of under paid workers, and I think it's going to be a devastating problem if something doesn't change. However, if you want to change the scales, you have to do it at all levels.

  13. No good deed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... goes unpunished.

  14. Credit where it's due by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When's the last time you saw a CEO of a company take a voluntary pay cut like that? Say whatever else you like, at least the guy was willing to eat his own dogfood, so to speak.

    1. Re:Credit where it's due by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When's the last time you saw a CEO of a company take a voluntary pay cut like that?

      Happens all the time, although not lie that. Normally a CEO has a rational reason for taking a pay cut, rather than an irrational one.

       

      Say whatever else you like, at least the guy was willing to eat his own dogfood, so to speak.

      Ah yes, and praise to the cult leader that chooses to die with his flock.

  15. wtf by rogoshen1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    whenever CEO pay comes up on this site, people bitch about how much more the CEO makes vs rank and file. Okay, valid complaint.

    Here a CEO bucks that trend, nukes his own salary and gives everyone a *minimum* 70k salary -- which is different from everyone getting 70k. He not only does a commendable thing: paying employees more than necessary; but walks the walk and takes a massive paycut himself.

    The real story here is the crab-pot mentality. If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbor goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*. Why complain?

    *small scale, intra-company comparison here, yes I know if the minimum wage was suddenly 70k, that's a different beast.

    1. Re:wtf by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The real story here is the crab-pot mentality. If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbor goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*.

      Of course it does. Money for wages isn't spontaneously generated, it has to come from somewhere. Spending too much on employees who aren't worth the money (because you could get them, or someone just like them, for much less — obviously this was the case) means that the company's bottom line suffers. It's a waste of money which could be used for something useful. It also impacts the maximum wage that other employees can make, since it's got to come out of the budget. It absolutely does affect you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:wtf by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbor goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*. Why complain?

      Of course it does.

      If I'm working a stressful 60 hours a week to take home $100k, and the company suddenly starts paying the janitor $70k, I'm quitting and becoming a janitor.

    3. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was never about money.... That's why you don't understand. It's about self worth.

      I am happy because in my job I make 240K when all my co-workers and even boss, earn roughly 140-170K. It's because I'm a lot better than them. They all negotiated horribly and weren't thinking about their long-term plans where as I was and feel I should be "ahead of them" because of that effort.

      They were fooled into begging for work rather than having the employer *beg them* for work instead. I declined multiple offers and told them I wanted more. My skills backed it up. I'm now seeing income from all the extra time I sat indoors acquiring these skills while my peers were out drinking and getting laid. The whole time I was "investing" in something and thus I expect a higher payout.

      I also laugh at employees who are "thankful for what they get"... which is another way to end up just being screwed while taught to enjoy it. When my peers at the last crappy job refused to stand up about poor pay and walk out, I did. Is it really my problem if they stayed back there making nothing? Perhaps my ego is actually quite beneficial and maybe that's why they teach so much about not having one to public school children....

      Grow an ego, acquire skills, demand demand demand.... you'll then be earning 240K while sitting next to a boss who earns 160K and suddenly, he's not so powerful looking now is he? No intimidation means I push back more, then was rewarded for making the right choice via pushing back. My peers were scared of him and "respectful" and blindly walked off the ledge he walked them to. Again is it my problem?

      I'd rather keep things how they are where I can use mastery and skill to out-do my peers.... Oh and I work next to MBA's and I don't even have a high school diploma despite out-earning them. Damn I love programming gigs :)

    4. Re:wtf by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      The real story here is the crab-pot mentality. If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbour goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*. Why complain?

      Say you make $70K/yr in a job that required a university degree and ten years experience and have worked for the company for five years. Your work week is usually 60 hours and you often work weekends to get projects complete. Say a new guy is hired in the mail room. He is a high school dropout works 9-5 seven days a week and never works weekend. What would you think if he also made $70K/yr?

      It does impact you financially as well. Every company has a budget for wages. When some wages go up others are held down. The extra money being paid to the mail room guy is not being paid to you. You could be making $80K/yr but the company does not have the budget to do it.

    5. Re:wtf by sectokia · · Score: 2

      Sorry but, a company run that like has no future. While the media like to claim they leave because of 'unfairness', in reality anyone with half a brain would leave because by valuing all labor as the same, the company is setting a cap on value of knowledge, experience and skill. Think about if you were on $70k already. Well no matter what, your pay rise will almost certainly now be tied to the 'average'. So now you are trapped in job that doesn't allow you to benefit from gaining knowledge, experience and skill. Why would an employee work in such a job? The best they can hope for is to tread water for the rest of their life, while hoping the company doesn't go under. Also, they would know that the company, even if it needs to, will never high a person with a market value of over $70k. The company should of course hire resources it needs for the projects and jobs it is doing. This limit will knee-cap the company and make it less flexible, and ultimately less competitive. Add in the over paying of low skilled labor, and the company will be even more less competitive eventually, and in the end it will go under. If I had options, I would consider leaving, even for lower pay, but more future opportunity.

    6. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was never about money.... That's why you don't understand. It's about self worth.

      Poe's Law: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. So I'll return the favor... :)

      Is the "purpose of life" to do as much as you can for yourself or as much as you can for others? Is the purpose of life to be as selfish as possible or to be as generous as possible? Is the purpose of life to have a big impact on the world or a small impact on the world? Is the purpose of life to be remembered long after you have died or to leave no trace of your existence?

      Myself, I suspect that, fundamentally, life doesn't actually have any purpose at all. Life is like a big flat gray plane under a uniform gray sky with all the people of the world milling about aimlessly. Some people conclude that the purpose of life is to go as far as possible in one particular direction and they look back smugly at all the people behind them. But other people choose an entirely different direction and look back at all the people behind them, as well.

      For that matter, free will is most likely an illusion: everything that happens in the world happens because of some combination of the random chance an the laws of physics. It's like being a character in a movie - except with the real experience of pain and pleasure. The key point is that without free will the whole notion of "deserving" becomes very complicated.

      Actions do have consequences and people do influence each other. If you tell me you will punch me in the nose if I cross the street on Wednesday morning (and I believe you), the laws of physics (i.e. an evolutionary desire to avoid pain) may cause me to "choose" not to cross the street on Wednesday morning. But, if I did cross the street, would I "deserve" to be punched in the face?

      Anyway, we are who we are. Or, more precisely, we are whatever some combination of the laws of physics and random of chance have determined that we would be. Assuming that wasn't sarcasm, you appear to be profoundly selfish - mostly likely motivated by deep insecurity. On the other hand, for better or worse, I'm quite a bit different. If I had one wish, it would be to have never been born. Most of life seems very unpleasant and I really don't see the point.

      But since I'm here I try to make the best of it. One of my goals is to not suffer too much - which involves making sure I have the basic necessities. Beyond that, though, I try to give back as much as I can. We live in a messed up world with horrible problems. Every day 20,000 children die of poverty, for example. I believe that knowledge is power. So, as a scientist, I try to find solutions to the world's problems.

      TLDR - once I'm paid enough to live comfortably, what I care about in my job is the intellectual freedom to do meaningful work.

    7. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spending too much on employees who aren't worth the money (because you could get them, or someone just like them, for much less — obviously this was the case)...

      OK, so how do you figure out whether someone is "worth the money"? Specifically, how do you figure out how much a CEO is worth?

      Obviously, there are vast hordes of people who would accept employment as a CEO for even just minimum wage. In fact, lots of people would even do it for free - just for the power that it afforded.

      Presumably there is some minimum skill set that is needed in order to be able to perform effectively as CEO. And your argument would seem to be for a race to the bottom - find the person with the bare minimum skill set who is willing to be CEO for the least pay. So what is your criteria?

      In particular, does the CEO of the Gravity Payments have the minimum skill set? If so, since he is willing to work for $70K per year, your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that he is the right person for the job.

    8. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What he should have done, is lowered his salary and either:

      a). Returned it to shareholders as dividends
      b). Established a cash reserve for the company
      c). Distributed it evenly to existing workers, weighted by current pay scale wherever possible

      What he did instead was reward people with lower pay disproportionate to their ability to contribute meaningful work to the company. If he wants to raise wages across the board, great! But why give so much more to people who obviously provide less value to the firm? And why just focus on wages? A cash reserve can save the company in times of duress, and dividend payouts are a good way to attract investors.

    9. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say you make $70K/yr in a job that required a university degree and ten years experience and have worked for the company for five years. Your work week is usually 60 hours and you often work weekends to get projects complete.

      The 60 hours per week is troubling: productivity actually drops when people go much above 40 hours per week.

      But other than that, it really depends on the work. If I'm given the intellectual freedom to do meaningful work - to solve the world's big problems. Then $70K/year is plenty. And I'm happy to see the guy in the mail room also get a decent salary.

      Life isn't a competition to see who can suffer the most in order to collect the biggest pay check.

    10. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, go ahead, nobody's stopping you. But why would you be angry about it?

    11. Re:wtf by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      OK, so how do you figure out whether someone is "worth the money"? Specifically, how do you figure out how much a CEO is worth?

      That's the rub, isn't it? Clearly average CEO compensation is too high, because lots of them are collecting lots of money while running companies into the ground.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real story here is the crab-pot mentality. If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbour goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*. Why complain?

      Say you make $70K/yr in a job that required a university degree and ten years experience and have worked for the company for five years. Your work week is usually 60 hours and you often work weekends to get projects complete. Say a new guy is hired in the mail room. He is a high school dropout works 9-5 seven days a week and never works weekend. What would you think if he also made $70K/yr?

      It does impact you financially as well. Every company has a budget for wages. When some wages go up others are held down. The extra money being paid to the mail room guy is not being paid to you. You could be making $80K/yr but the company does not have the budget to do it.

      That is quite a talent being able to work 7 days a week and take the weekends off. Maybe he does deserve some extra if he can be in two places at once.

    13. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real story here is the crab-pot mentality. If I'm making 100k, and my cubicle neighbour goes from 35k to 70k, that doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever*. Why complain?

      Say you make $70K/yr in a job that required a university degree and ten years experience and have worked for the company for five years. Your work week is usually 60 hours and you often work weekends to get projects complete. Say a new guy is hired in the mail room. He is a high school dropout works 9-5 seven days a week and never works weekend. What would you think if he also made $70K/yr?

      It does impact you financially as well. Every company has a budget for wages. When some wages go up others are held down. The extra money being paid to the mail room guy is not being paid to you. You could be making $80K/yr but the company does not have the budget to do it.

      If he's working "9-5 seven days a week" then obviously "and never works a weekend" is impossible.
      Unless, of course, you're redefining what a "week" is.

    14. Re:wtf by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      Money for wages isn't spontaneously generated, it has to come from somewhere. Spending too much on employees who aren't worth the money (because you could get them, or someone just like them, for much less — obviously this was the case) means that the company's bottom line suffers.

      *That's* where you're going with this? Now that they can afford it, 25 *more* people will be in front of me in line at Starbucks *every morning* ordering gourmet drinks, and you're giving me economic theory? You might want to rethink your priorities.

    15. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      walks the walk and takes a massive paycut himself.

      Somehow, I doubt this is truly the case. His nominal salary may have decreased, but I bet that he has a load of stock options, and expect(s/ed) the publicity to help his company, and boost his options more than enough to compensate for the drop in salary.

    16. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Add in the over paying of low skilled labor, and the company will be even more less competitive eventually, and in the end it will go under.

      I understand that reading research studies is something that most people on . have never heard of doing,l and that actually looking at the hard data is an alien concept.

      Nonetheless,the research from the sixties pretty much demonstrated that overpaid/under-performing employees quit at a higher rate that underpaid/over-performing employees. Because of the "I am entitled because I am entitled" attitude of the diaper generation, those findings may no longer hold true.

      A second point from the article that most commenter's here appear to have missed, is that US$70K/yr was the minimum pay rate, not the maximum. Pay raises above that threshold are going to be far more difficult to make, than in other organizations. OTOH COLAs will be easier to obtain.

      Probably the hardest obstacle for Gravity Payments to overcome, is finding people for whom money is a fantasy. The second biggest obstacle will be dealing with idiots that haven't studied history. Once both of those are surmounted, things will be plain sailing. Until then, the waters are extremely turbulent.

    17. Re:wtf by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      *That's* where you're going with this? Now that they can afford it, 25 *more* people will be in front of me in line at Starbucks *every morning* ordering gourmet drinks, and you're giving me economic theory?

      Sounds like you need coffee theory explained to you instead. Starfucks is coffee that's been burned to death. What the fuck are you doing there? You know a $5 espresso machine will give you better results at home, right?

      You might want to rethink your priorities.

      That's funny, that's what I was going to say to you next.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:wtf by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Ahem. Neither extreme is good. I am surprised you do not see that.

      The world is not black and white.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  16. Turned down job offer today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Today I turned down a $120k offer. They needed to be more competitive than that and they knew it, but they had an open salary policy and didn't want to upset the others or to set unreasonable expectations upon me. So in the end their progressive policy prevented them from being competitive and acquiring the talent. Gotta pay to play.

    1. Re:Turned down job offer today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No you didn't. Now finish cooking that burger, people are hungry.

  17. And then atlas shrugged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I gonna stop the motor of the world.

    Now pay me please for this comment, I must not do anything for free.

  18. That NYT article in full by Bearhouse · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having run a company, I can get this...it's a refreshing and seemingly decent approach to sharing the wealth.
    Great contrast to all the money-grabbing, "screw the employee" bosses that are in the news all the time.
    Maybe where he went wrong is not allowing an "upside".
    Sure, not everybody who *thinks* they deserve extra really do.
    But in my experience some sure as hell do...the trick is to identify them and give them fair value.
    (My top staff regularly got 20% over market rates - they earned me far more, so I was happy to pay.)

    Snip: "You can ignore economics, but economics won’t ignore you.
    That’s the tough lesson Dan Price, CEO of Gravity Payments, a Seattle credit-card processing company, is learning.
    Four months ago, Price announced he’d slash his own multimillion-dollar pay and set a company-wide $70,000 minimum wage.
    He got the idea after a friend explained her difficulty paying back student loans and surviving on $40,000 a year — a salary many Gravity employees were making.
    Price’s stand against income inequality made him an immediate darling of the left.
    But key employees saw it differently.
    Financial manager Maisey McMaster liked the idea at first — until she thought about it.
    “He gave raises to people who have the least skills and are least equipped to do the job,” she told The New York Times. Meanwhile, “The ones who were taking on the most didn’t get much of a bump.”
    She thought it would be fairer to give smaller raises, with the clear chance to earn more with experience. Price brushed off her doubts; she quit.
    Also out the door: Web developer Grant Moran. He says, “Now the people who were just clocking in and out were making the same as me.” Plus, having your pay level a very public matter is a problem, with “friends now calling you for a loan.”
    Moral of the story: Some people work harder than others; some have stronger skills — and they don’t think it’s fair that they’re paid the same as others.
    Price will soon be left only with workers worth his chosen minimum wage — or less.
    The company is already in chaos thanks to the policy — but the big problem is ahead, as it tries to keep growing and innovating with only mediocre talent"

    1. Re:That NYT article in full by laird · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't leave out that the business is booming, doing much more business than before, and getting tons of applications from high quality candidates attracted by the higher wages.

      So yes, the transition might be bumpy. But nobody's salary went down, so they're all making at least what they agreed to for their job. It seems weird to me that people are angry that while they got a raise, but so did lower paid workers, so they aren't making as much more than the other guy as they used to.

      A good writeup is at http://www.forbes.com/sites/mi... .

    2. Re:That NYT article in full by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And in the meantime those two selfish assholes who quit solely because they couldn't stand to see other people not treated worse than them have made themselves radioactive. Why would I ever want to hire people who might throw a huge public tantrum and quit because I don't treat other people badly enough to soothe their ego?

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    3. Re:That NYT article in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Indeed. Gravity Payments isn't struggling. They've lost a few customers, but they've gained so many new customers that they had to hire new employees to handle them all. The CEO's salary reduction isn't enough to cover additional new hires forever - he went from a million dollars salary to $70k, and gave all that money to the employees. So the company has to pay for the new hires' minimum 70k salary, and pay it out of the millions they're making from the massive growth surge Price has created with his generosity.
      Yes two employees have quit. Yes Price is being sued by his brother. Sour grapes, all of them, pissed off because others were getting goodies and they weren't.
      The big story here is how economists somehow fail to report the hugely increased profitability of the company.

    4. Re:That NYT article in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't leave out that the business is booming,...

      How is this not modded up?

      There was a time when the discussion on Slashdot had an element of genuine curiosity - when people were actually interested in fact and reason. Now, it seem to be mostly just people trying to push their own simplistic ideology - even against basic observation and logic.

    5. Re:That NYT article in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So true.

      Fuck. Those. Whining. Bitches.

      The company is better off without them. The company has more clients, and is bringing in more money than it was before. Losing those entitled pieces of shit did not hurt the company.

    6. Re:That NYT article in full by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Don't leave out that the business is booming

      But is this mostly due to a simple increased awareness of the company from the publicity that came from the salary stunt/innovation, or because potential customers are being attracted by a policy they approve of, or due to better motivated employees, or because were they growing anyway?

    7. Re:That NYT article in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But is it mostly due to the better wage structure that pays you the rate for the job based on what the job is supposed to do for the company?

      And is asking a question enough to prove that the proposition of the question is true for you? If not, why did you do it? It it is, then now you know that it's because of their salary scheme.

    8. Re:That NYT article in full by laird · · Score: 1

      My point was that the article left out critical information - that the company was doing extremely well as a business. Which, of course, undermined the author's thesis.

      As to the question of the cause of their booming business is, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Other articles about the company report that the boom came as a result of the CEO taking a pay cut and giving everyone else raises. So whether it's due to employee's high morale, positive press, or customers wanting to support a company that treats employees fairly, it's hard to say (since they're all going on at once, it's hard to prove individual cause and effect) but it's a bit academic - in any case, the company is booming because of the CEO's decision. And that all seems relevant to a story attempting to report that the company is "troubled".

  19. The Left is reeling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This, right after the Greece bailout.

    Every time they try to artificially raise the bottom, it falls off as a result.

  20. Why hire people the company doesn't need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A company only hires the employees it needs, and without any of them it wouldn't be a success, so it makes sense that everyone is equally valuable and should be paid the same.

    1. Re:Why hire people the company doesn't need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A company only hires the employees it needs, and without any of them it wouldn't be a success, so it makes sense that everyone is equally valuable and should be paid the same.

      And thus is should've made perfect sense for Steve Jobs to make precisely the same amount of money as the janitor who emptied his trash can... because both contributed equally to the company in terms of value and thus deserve the same? There would have been no Mac, no iPod, and no iPhone were it not for that janitor, his 'vision' was thoroughly irreplaceable, right?

  21. I quit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I quit my 7-11 job when I was in first year university exactly because I had just gotten a raise to $0.50 above minimum a few months before the minimum was then raised by $0.50. When told that I wouldn't benefit from the raise of the minimum wage, and then found out I would now be making the same as the new just-hires, I basically walked.

    Having said that, I do long for the coming days of post-scarcity when a living wage is all one will need, and work will be voluntary, and won't even be considered work. Any manual labour will be automated, including production. Energy, food, and living expenses will be near zero, and humanity will enter a new golden age of freedom from the drudgery that is 'work'. People will be free to create, and be on perpetual vacation.

    Ah, one can dream.

  22. The lesson for CEOs to learn here by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You should not expect any kind of loyalty from your employees, so you have no obligation to have any for them. Use them, work them down, toss them, replace them.

    They do the same with you.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  23. Steve Jobs did this by ezdiy · · Score: 1

    To a degree In Next - look it up. Two tier system, 75k seniors, everyone else 50k. The concept can definitely fly, as long the company operates like that from the get go. In the RTFA case the problem was the abrubt switch and not factoring senior employees at all, but that does not mean the model itself is flawed.

    1. Re:Steve Jobs did this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he did the exact opposite. He had 2 tiers, not 1. That is exactly what makes it fuckin fail. You cannot ever ever ever ever pay everyone the same fuckin wage. History/Economics 101.

    2. Re:Steve Jobs did this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that is why GP post starts with "To a degree".

  24. Somewhere... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Ayn Rand is laughing.

  25. OK, but why quit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't make sense. If I make $70k and that's the max I can get in the market, how is it good for me to quit if someone with less skills and less contributions also gets paid $70k?

    What do I win by quiting?

  26. More like CEO trying to shaft his brother? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like CEO had an argument with his brother, and rather than give him what he probably deserved, he found an excuse to lower his salary in an attempt to keep his brother from getting anything.

  27. Talk about preaching to the choir! by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

    LOL! All CEOs have known this at least as long as I have been alive.

    It's many of the workers who still haven't figured it out the true nature of the interaction.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    1. Re:Talk about preaching to the choir! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reid Hoffman has a good writeup on this. Although his approach is not to be antagonistic about it but to define the reality.

      Effectively he says, employees come work for me. You learn / gain experience and earn a salary. I get to make a profit off you. Once the relationship has run its course its time for us to part ways.

  28. What this article is missing... by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

    The 'trouble' this article talks about is some drama amongst the workers, part of that fueled by the public spectacle of what happened. A critical ingredient of what's missing from this story are the answers to questions like: "Did the increase in pay cause profit margins at the company to drop?" and "... by how much?"

    All this article really says is extreme actions have consequences.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    1. Re:What this article is missing... by sectokia · · Score: 1

      Looking at profit margins is way to narrow. Lets say it came all out of the CEO's pocket and revenue and margins are not effected. None the less, the employees on $70k now know that they are at the top of the ladder. There is no hope of future growth unless they somehow drag every one up by the same amount. Their future prospects looks extremely bleak. They are now stuck under a cap where by their potential development and renumeration will be limited by the average development of their peers. I think this really highlights the difference between people on high incomes and those on low incomes. The low income people and the left supports are focused on just having a wage. Where as those on high incomes are more concern with actually developing their skills and growing themselves as individuals. The only people to stay at the business would be those who felt happy living the reset of their live on $70k. I doubt the top achievers at the company didn't have higher dreams and ambitions.

    2. Re:What this article is missing... by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      I didn't suggest that profit margins was the sole point of discussion. This whole story is a launching point for arguments for and against living wages. One of the biggies is that raises destroy businesses. All we've seen is the short-term effects of some of the employees upset about the change. That'll even itself out soon enough. In the meantime all we've gotten is a transparent shoveling of agenda.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    3. Re:What this article is missing... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      As long as there are regular and modest salary increases every so often to account for growing costs of living and inflation, making what amounts to $70k per year in 2015 is not anywhere near being shitty pay. If an individual's performance is poor enough that it doesn't justify even such a modest increase, then they are probably already affecting the company's bottom line so there is some justification to letting that kind of slacker go anyways. Also, if the company's margins are too tight to afford such an increase, then the company probably is trying to live beyond its means anyways, and then there is *NO* prospect of hoping to get a raise anyways.

  29. Another Utopian Socialist by p51d007 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Gee, who didn't see THAT coming! Socialism does not breed happiness. Paying EVERYONE the same breeds resentment. Those that worked HARD, and worked their way up the ladder, are now ticked off, because all of their hard work was for nothing, because now the new hire, off the street that knows NOTHING, gets paid the same. Those that goof off, don't work hard, get paid the same as the person that will bust their butt. Customers, some of which already left, are worried that paying everyone the same, will result in the fees going up. Great job! You backhandedly once again showed that socialism DOES NOT WORK, never will work!

    1. Re:Another Utopian Socialist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering theres several western countries that have quite small income differences due taxation and minimium wages, i find these american experiments funny when in fact europe has some hundred years of trial&error already put in...

  30. jesus, what a godless socialist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Matthew 20:1-16

    “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

    “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

    “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. ... are you envious because I am generous?’

    And then some workers pouted, and stamped their feet, and said, "my value is my pay, and you have taken away that margin that distinguishes me from the low", some said "only my pay reflects my performance, and if you pay me decently, I might not have an incentive to perform, or the pressure to perform will be too high" contradicting themselves at every turn, and they left in a huff. Or a minute-and-a-huff. And they complained that the man who owned the vineyard was a socialist, and was not out to screw as much money out of his vineyard workers as possible, and was therefore a weak man, and not fit to rule them.

    1. Re:jesus, what a godless socialist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well capitalism is all about short term gain (although technically adding up to long term gains).

      The next day, all the workers are going to show up at the last hour unless they think work is its own reward.

      But Jesus is all about the afterlife and preparing for it. So he doesn't give two shits about money and capitalism one way or the other.

      With Jesus, your mileage will vary depending on your views about the afterlife.

  31. Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Those who can contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that people should be rewarded in proportion to their contributions.

    Those who cannot contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that everyone should receive equal rewards, regardless of their contributions.

    By setting policies that pander to the second group, you wind up losing members of the first group, resulting in a company full of under-performing slackers. No surprise such a company doesn't do well.

    1. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      50% of people are below average in their contribution. Greater than 50% of people feel they deserve more and should be paid more. Pandering to the group who feels they contribute more can be just as much of a shit hole of a company, financially. It's just that the end result is a slow death spiral as other companies with more sane pay can outperform in the long-term. Read, it can take centuries. Look no further than brand names and where they cut employees.

    2. Re:Exactly by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 1

      Sorry for the stats nazi thing, but 50% are below median. For the mean, it can be any percentage in the range 0% < x < 100%

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    3. Re:Exactly by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Those who can contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that people should be rewarded in proportion to their contributions.

      This is only natural. However, this ends up leading to promotions for people whose "above-and-beyond" contribution means working late frequently and getting the work/life balance out of whack. This can end up with a de facto situation that anyone who works damn hard during their allotted hours but never stays late is clocked as "underperforming". The CEO's point was to release that tension and expectation, freeing up employees to have proper downtime without stressing over perceptions.

      The problem is that it is too late to implement in this case -- if you look at the complaints of exiting staff members, you'll see that many of them explicitly mention he fact that they worked long hours to get their promotions, which have now been invalidated. You can't free people from the stress of expectation to work long hours after they've worked them.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    4. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, you will be right as soon as the company starts not doing well.
      For now, they just lost some valuable employees.
      Sales are up, and they don't have problems acquiring new talent, so you will need to wait a bit before what your said becomes right.

    5. Re: Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Were they promised giant raises and promotions? Doubtful. They just decided for themselves that if they worked harder they would be entitled to that.

    6. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about paying people for working hard rather than blackmailing people? If you have a natural ability and enjoy what you do with it then what gives you the right to dictate a better life for yourself at the expense of others?

    7. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Those who can contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that people should be rewarded in proportion to their contributions."

      In general, that isn't true, because most people know what it must be like not to be able to contribute more and can empathise. As long as people are doing their best, at least.

      However, the tech sector is populated by borderline autistic people and sociopaths who are only in it for themselves and don't give a fuck about people who are less fortunate than they are.

    8. Re: Exactly by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      That is the acculturated expectation of most office workers the world over. It's standard practice, hence the default assumption.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  32. Fairness doesn't have to look this stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This CEO chose a daft approach. He ignored his financial manager's sensible advice. Rather than giving everyone $70k whether they're worth it or not, he could have given everyone a pay rise and room to grow if they were worth it.

    For example, even a $10k pay rise for employees on $40k is a huge boon, and you can't exactly complain that someone else got a pay rise if you just went up from $70k to $80k. And you know what? As a reward for being such a compassionate CEO, he could have only docked his own pay to, I don't know, $200k or something. Over-entitled upper-pay-tier types who are just leeching money from their "lessers" can leave the company, to be replaced with one of the thousands of competent people who consider a $150k salary good money. Win, win, win as long as the overall pay doesn't go up.

  33. I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few employees quit, big deal. They were clearly entitled and apparently do not mind not having a job.

  34. Re:I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    A few employees quit, big deal. They were clearly entitled and apparently do not mind not having a job.

    In my experience, when a company makes a move that's likely to drive it bankrupt, the first to leave are the ones smart enough to see it coming. They know they can easily get another job somewhere else.

  35. Re:I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly how much experience do you have helping run shifty companies into the ground?

  36. Someone at /. hates this idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Second story on this in as many days. Both highly negative, basically telling people the company is in trouble.

    Someone at /. hates this idea, a lot.

    If you were ever curious about how exactly the media gets used to form and disseminate reactionary ideas to more egalitarian ideas, when those rare birds appear in modern Amreica, you could do worse than to study the current media reaction to this story, and you could do worse than to start at our own beloved /.

  37. Proof by Chas · · Score: 1

    Proof that self-entitled cockbags can fuck up anything.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  38. Re:I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    In my experience, when a company makes a move that's likely to drive it bankrupt, the first to leave are the ones smart enough to see it coming.

    Exactly how much experience do you have helping run shifty companies into the ground?

    There are other possibilities. He could have repeatedly been one of the first to leave. Or he could be experienced, but not as smart as the first to go, and be one of the second to leave.

    Personally, I think that laid off is better than quit, because then you get some of your unemployment insurance money back. Usually, a pittance. Still, it's nice to get some back when so much of your tax money is spent on moral atrocities.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  39. Actual Capitalism by radarskiy · · Score: 1

    Henry Ford was noted for paying more than his competitors. This allowed him to have his pick from the labor pool and reduce absenteeism. An actual capitalist is willing to pay what something is worth.

    Gravity Payments is a privately held company. The majority owner is doing what he wishes with his property. If he was being miserly with his property many would stand up for his property rights. (His brother is the only one that might theoretically dispute his use since he is the minority owner, but that is not a given depending on how they agree to the split of ownership.)

    People claim to left because the longest-serving people got little increase. But those people were making the same or less just before. If what the are being paid now is not what they are worth, why was it what they were worth before?

    These anti-capitalists are cutting off their own noses to spite someone else's face.

    “The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it.” -David X Machina

  40. Not surprising they're struggling by mysidia · · Score: 1

    What they are doing is highly unusual.

    If they want to succeed in doing something so unconventional, then they best be prepared to quickly "tweak" their plan/arrangement in different ways to deal with issues.

    For example: putting everyone at exactly $70k is not going to work in the long run. Not unless you also have a way of rewarding and motivating employees to be productive AND punishing employees who aren't productive.

    I don't see it working, unless they adjust so significant rewards can be available, and those who make the "minimum" can Lose money or be required to pay back, If they fail to achieve some set minimal objective

    1. Re:Not surprising they're struggling by mark-t · · Score: 1

      There are literally dozens of studies on the subject that you could find with no more effort than a Google search. Generally speaking, money can only act as a motivator to get people to work harder than they already are when they are actually not being paid enough in the first place... or especially if they are not being paid fairly for the work they are doing. After you paying your employee's enough money, what generally motivates them to work harder are things more internal to the employee, such as having a sense that they have some control over their own life and the direction it is going, learning or mastering something new, or else feeling like the work they are doing is making some kind of positive difference in the company or society in general.

      As long as what the person is being paid for their work is no less than fair, how much money they make beyond the point where they shouldn't need to worry about money in the first place is not going to motivate any but the most mercenary of employees, who in all honesty, you probably wouldn't want working for you anyways.

      Also, paying everyone that they employ a decent wage does not necessarily mean that a company must live beyond its means, so that is not inherently any reason for an employee of a company that has recently adopted such a policy to fear that a person's salary would not at least still be able to keep up with the cost of living. If a person wants more than that, then that employee should approach their supervisor on the matter, and actively search for further opportunities within the company to take on more responsibility within the company that would be deserving of more pay in the first place rather than simply expecting that such a promotion would somehow just be generously handed to the employee without them having to do anything to get it. And in all honesty, it really seems to me that the people that quit their jobs over this happening may have been expecting exactly that. The only thing kind of raise that might be fair to get without trying to take on any further responsibility is one where the employee wasn't being paid fairly for the work they were doing in the first place, which the CEO presumably felt was the situation at this company when they increased the minimum salary to $70k.

  41. No, they have just fucked it up by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Socialism doesn't work

    This has nothing to do with socialism. This is not a farmers co-op or whatever that "hasn't been working" for 100+ years, this is a company that has fucked up the concept of pay scales despite it being what every large company used to do and what a lot of governments do for their workers today.
    It's not rocket science. After so many years you go from a band 1 whatever to a band 2. If you are shit-hot and clearly work above your grade you either get a promotion in pay grade, a temporary promotion, or a bonus. Just because HR weenies can't be bothered to stop playing Facebook games and can't learn from the past doesn't mean that it's difficult.

    Disclaimer (since so many people here like shooting messengers), I work in a small place with a complete lack of HR weenies and have a negotiated salary but I have worked for a multinational (extremes of both reason and insanity), a government owned corporation and a university in the past - all of which had known salary scales and did not fuck that part of things up. I'm not advocating it (for all those messenger shooters out there) just pointing out that there is a very long list of places that do not fuck it up.

    1. Re:No, they have just fucked it up by gnupun · · Score: 2

      This has nothing to do with socialism.

      This has everything to do with socialism/communism.

      With legal bills quickly mounting and most of his own paycheck and last year's $2.2 million in profits plowed into the salary increases, Dan Price said, "We don't have a margin of error to pay those legal fees."

      First, he makes way less, same as the lowest paid worker.

      Two of Mr. Price's most valued employees quit, spurred in part by their view it was unfair to double the pay of some new hires while the longest-serving staff members got small or no raises.

      Second, he screws over the valuable employees with low or no pay raises.

      Isn't this the hallmark of socialism where everyone gets the same benefits regardless of contribution?

      http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/31...

    2. Re: No, they have just fucked it up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Second, he screws over the valuable employees with low or no pay raises.
      Isn't this the hallmark of socialism where everyone gets the same benefits regardless of contribution?"

      You're way off base. Everyone was not getting the same compensation. The seniors just got jealous because their egos didn't get stroked. This has nothing to do with socialism, it has to do with egos.

    3. Re:No, they have just fucked it up by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Well, he chose to implement a payscale that mimics the desired outcome of far left government policy. It is a valid comparison. The only real difference is that it was done in a private firm (I assume it's not publicly traded). Why work hard for promotion to officerdom when you'll be paid the same as the secretary? Might as well brush off the resume and find a better paying position elsewhere. Talent can't be retained without the opportunity for promotion and bigger paychecks. He's being sued for a reason.

    4. Re:No, they have just fucked it up by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Isn't this the hallmark of socialism where everyone gets the same benefits regardless of contribution?

      No. Not even close.

      The defining characteristic of socialism is that the means of production is owned by society. In this case, we have a privately held company who own the means of production, which is the hallmark of capitalism. In fact, the single fundamental difference between capitalism, socialism and communism is the model of ownership. Beyond that, they all share the same economic theory and ideas of industrial efficiency based on division of labour, specialisation of skills and the application of automation.

      There is no more "money for nothing" in socialist theory than in capitalist theory, because a capitalist derives profit not from his work, but as dividends from the businesses his capital has been invested in. Now imagine that there was one company in the world, and everybody in the world held an equal share in it. Then everyone gets dividends. That's pure socialism. Notice that this says absolutely nothing about the pay structure within the company. In a capitalist society, a tiny number of people can acrue enough wealth to live off investments, but in a socialist society, no-one is going to live off dividends alone. Note how some countries have benefits that are barely livable, to encourage people into work. Some societies chose to provide livable benefits to the weak and vulnerable, but that is a natural human choice, and not a defining feature of socialism.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  42. Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's not actually the minimum wage - it's the "illegal alien employment threshold wage"

    When government created (and now occasionally raises) the minimum wage, it does not change the value of the work the employees perform per hour, nor does it alter the value of having those tasks performed. In other words: If a shopkeeper needs his floor swept, that task has a particular value to him and if he can pay somebody below a certain rate to do he will hire somebody to do it and the task will be done. Having the government order him to may more per hour does not magically make the task more valuable nor does it provide more money to pay for the task. The shopkeeper must either pay somebody "under the table" (off-books) to do it at the realistic wage or let the task go unperformed.

    Minimum wage hikes only provide four groups with a benefit:

    1. Politicians who use it to appeal to certain groups

    2. Minimum wage workers who get a small temporary bump in their pay - their pay goes up but then their job goes away or promotion options evaporate or the resulting inflation ripples through the economy and then prices rise so their new bigger salary buys no more than it used to.

    3. Illegal workers who see an explosion of opportunities doing illegal work at below the minimum wage line (which has risen).

    4. The most important element of the Democrat party: Labor unions who are generally not paid minimum wage (so most people would not suspect a link) but whose contracts often link their levels of pay and benefits to the minimum wage (so when minimum goes up, union members automatically see their wages and benefits inflate).

     

    1. Re:Correction by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The most important element of the Democrat party: Labor unions who are generally not paid minimum wage (so most people would not suspect a link) but whose contracts often link their levels of pay and benefits to the minimum wage (so when minimum goes up, union members automatically see their wages and benefits inflate).

      Well, guess what? I'm pro-minimum wage, but I'm anti-union. I think unions were a necessary and critical step in securing rights for workers, but for reasons like this I feel they are now holding back progress. Since they make multiples of the minimum wage, they'll never campaign for the minimum wage to be high enough to actually be a living wage.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  43. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So...... if you have to read 100 pages without getting sex or explosions then you drop the book as gibberish?

    I guess all the great classics of literature and philosophy are unfathomable to you.

    [sigh]

    I weep for what used to be called "Western Civilization"

    Well, that seems to explain all the modern "blockbuster" comic book movies, and the rise of Obama.

  44. Re:I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I think that laid off is better than quit, because then you get some of your unemployment insurance money back. Usually, a pittance. Still, it's nice to get some back when so much of your tax money is spent on moral atrocities.

    Personally, I think you're wrong, because if you quit and go someplace else they're going to ask why and you can say "I stopped feeling like I was learning and growing professionally" - to which they might think "sounds like a go-gettter!" and hire you - whereas if you get laid off and spend a few weeks on unemployment they might think you were laid off as a "low performer" and not such a good deal to hire (this might not apply if, say, the entire company is obviously headed to closing it's doors and is laying off everyone).

  45. I REALLY don't understand you people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If someone else gets a pay rise early and comes up to your salary, SO WHAT? It isn't reducing your salary, so no harm to you. And if the work output is little to no different from yours, then why the hell shouldn't they be paid the rate for the job AS SOON AS THEY ARE DOING IT?

    But you leave in a huff.

    What do you put down as your reason for leaving? "Paid someone else the same as me"? Do you leave and look for a job without redundancy or welfare cheques?

    No, most likely you were leaving anyway and had a job lined up.

    But no matter what, despite a good moan about how you were gypped, which I engage in,but more as a vehicle to complain about how salaries are "calculated" to be "fair", what the hell does it matter than someone got a pay rise quicker than you did years ago? People who think like that are better off for the company leaving.

  46. About what she thought not what was by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Atlas Shrugged was about a path to her fantasy about what Tsarist Russia was like when she was too young to read. The bit about all the great men going "on strike" of self imposed exile and the nation collapsing was very much what she wanted to happen to the USSR, total collapse and the nobility moving back, and she was not only naive enough to think such a thing was going to happen by magic even 40 years later but so naive that she thought Tsarist Russia was a better place to be than 1950's USA! It's hard to get to be more anti-American than Rand with her great men who should be in charge and serfs that should never be allowed to vote.
    Confusing elements of the USA with very different elements of the USSR was the part of the work that renders it worse than worthless. I wonder if the loud "Randians" really understand that they are calling for the overthrow of what George Washington delivered to be replaced by what King George had in place?

    Enough venting on my part - If you want an entertaining and easy to read fictionalized account of what it was like in late Tsarist Russia from an unbiased contemporary source then Joseph Conrad's "Under Western Eyes" is very good. It's as fresh a spy novel as anything by Tom Clancy despite being a bit over a century old.

  47. But what do people of the right claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right, they clam this is socialism and that it was BOUND to fail.

    Odd how you got all this way and didn't deign to notice the right's perspective, but DID have "plenty of evidence" to make a claim about those other people who are left of you...

  48. Well, well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I wholeheartedly loved working for this company, but it collapsed
    > after finishing the first game.

    this is SO different to what happens in most game studios now, where all the workers are fired as soon as the game is finished...collectively, they've cost the company 10 or 20 million to make a game that raked in hundreds of millions in sales, now they can fuck off and starve and default on their mortgage while management tries to get a new deal for a new game. some of the lucky ones might get re-hired for the next project.

    Open up your own company and give your employees equal pay. If you can't, don't bull shit.

    Or you can move to North Korea where most works get equal paid.

  49. Re:I fail to see what exactly was so bad from this by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

    If you quit without having a new job lined up you're an idiot (unless you have substantial savings your ok with living on making it a vacation).

    --
    No sir I dont like it.
  50. Meanwhile ⦠by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ⦠countries having standardised salaries as a matter of course are booming.

  51. If all you have is a hammer ... by dbIII · · Score: 1

    This has everything to do with socialism/communism.

    Ah, some sort of politically fixated person has decided to insult my intelligence in an offensive way as if I was born yesterday - and the "correction" is spectacularly wrong.
    How is it possible to get things so badly wrong?
    This is how, if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
    There is no point being polite to such folk, if you disagree you are an enemy, and if you politely disagree you are a weak enemy.
    Above poster, I suggest you get a bit more perspective on life instead of spouting ridiculously naive bullshit all over the place, unless of course it's deliberate sarcasm designed to look incredibly idiotic. Another alternative is some sort of political wonk paid as a "social media worker" to twist the minds of the kiddies to a political view, your UID looks a bit low for such scum but the comment really fits the "narrative" of such manipulative pricks. So above poster - WTF are you and why are you pretending this is all cold war bullshit that you should have either grown out of decades ago or never knew in the first place?


    The topic is very obviously an implementation problem in an organisation and no "ism" of any sort applies since even countries with "socialism/communism" have different pay grades at different ranks (using an army example for simplicity).

    This is as fucking stupid as the people who called the millionaire filmmaker Charlie Chaplain a communist - just about the biggest capitalist at the time and that label was put on him.

    Can we have our tech site back instead of warring political shills or utter losers of clueless fanboys who do it for free?

    1. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Ah, some sort of politically fixated person has decided to insult my intelligence in an offensive way as if I was born yesterday - and the "correction" is spectacularly wrong.

      And??? Which of my statements are wrong? You sound like a commie sympathiser anyway.

    2. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You sound like a commie sympathiser anyway.

      Yes, me and fucking Charlie Chaplain.

      Don't you get by now that I think you are a total fucking idiot at best for posting something so insultingly stupid and show such complete and utter contempt for the readers here? Do I need to be even blunter to get the message across?

    3. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      And??? Which of my statements are wrong?

      Obviously the one I quoted, but since the rest is a house of cards piled on that insulting idiocy they are obviously just as incorrect. Get out in the sunshine and see there is more to life than some left/right cold war fantasy and a whole lot of stuff has nothing to do with politics.

    4. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Obviously the one I quoted

      I get it. It's wrong because you say it's wrong. What piercing logic!

      than some left/right cold war fantasy and a whole lot of stuff has nothing to do with politics.

      LOL, you're blind if you think communism is dead.

    5. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      There were no communists involved in the cold war. Communism puts the means of production in the hands of the commune. USSR stood for Union of Soviet Socialist Republics -- not communist. The USSR was a case of state socialism, where the state represents society and owns the means of production. True communism puts ownership and decision-making powers at a local level, which was only ever tried for a brief spell in Spain before the fascist coup overthrew the democratically elected anarchists and communists.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    6. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It's spectacularly wrong to the point of pointing out either insanely narrow obsession or a deliberate lie - to the point of being incredibly insulting that you think a reader is going to swallow such utter bullshit.
      Do you really expect people to swallow some crap about the Red Army paying their privates the same as their Generals? What a disgusting steaming pile of shit you are spreading.

    7. Re:If all you have is a hammer ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ugh, looks like english text, i even understand words, but have no idea what those strange sentinces mean, is this one of those artificial inteligence/auto generated texts?

  52. Read this asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  53. Read this asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  54. Read this asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  55. Read this, you asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  56. Read this, you asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  57. Read this, you asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  58. Read this, you asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  59. Just goes to show you.... by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

    that socialist utopias don't work. This idea that everyone should be paid the same is utter nonsense. In any given organization there are achievers and there are slackers. It has been my experience that the top 20% of workers often do at least 50% of the work. Many people will do just enough to get by. Others will find ways to get other people to do their work for them. Others will find their way into jobs that really are not needed but somehow exist anyway.

    I'm not suggesting that all CEO's should be making 5000x the average workers salary (or whatever the actual figure is). But clearly there are people in an organization that simply contribute more than others and should make more money.

    The problem becomes how do you measure productivity and worth? Traditional methods seem to leave themselves open to gaming the system, for those that are cunning enough to do so. Many people make big contributions but are not recognized sufficiently. Others take credit for the work of others. Management tends to attract self promoters and some of them get a disproportionate amount of credit (and therefore money) off the backs of others. Interesting problem.

  60. Re: Ha!v by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "occupy" crowd also doesn't take into account that founders of companies may have failed more than a few times, lived in crappy apartments, eaten chili and rice every day for months, gone without adequate medical support, distanced themselves from family, worked 16 or more hours a day for no pay, and in general worked slavishly for years to make the American Dream come true. Very few new companies actually survive, and fewer still become mega successes. Most have a very very hard road to get were they are. I'm not exactly young, and still chasing a successful startup. I work 12-16 hours a day, and have had 4 prior companies I founded die on the vine, for lack of capital for the most part, then competition passed us or outright stole our tech. And I've been an well optioned employee at a reasonably high, (report to the "C's" level) placed employee,many those two went down as well... All good ideas, all meaning a ton of work beyond the average wage slave clamor inc for equality, saying the executives are overpaid. The stress is astounding, the effect on family life can be devastating when the SO thinks you should be able to take four weeks in Cabo, and a month in Europe, and so on, while trying to get things going.

  61. Socialist stupidity by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Rich people aren't supposed to believe the socialist lies. They spread them, then embezzle the money for themselves and seize power. What was he thinking? Actually take a 70K job after having a 1M job? I know people who make 80K and have to live with one car, in a trailer. No buffer in case something happens. Product of the raising the minimum wage - which hurts poor and mostly black people. Not trolling here, it's a fact.

    As for publishing what people make - that was very very stupid. It never goes well when people know. Just human nature. Well that guy isn't as smart as I am... I work far harder then she does... and so on. Mind works on this and it can really generate resentment. I've seen people that made half what I do work very hard. I've seen a guy that made over 200K as an oracle DBA... and he is no where near as useful as the guys making 100K.

    Just worry about yourselves. Better that way.

  62. Hereâ(TM)s how Satya Nadella got the Microsof by mundlapati · · Score: 1

    How did Nadella emerge from this minefield of candidates?
    In addition to being a Microsoft loyalist, he was perceived as being willing to change things and look outside an insular culture. More importantly, perhaps, heâ(TM)s a âoegenuinely niceâ person who both Steve and Bill love, and who people seem to actually want to follow. Gatesâ(TM) decision to take a more active role also required someone he could work closely with. Most
    http://qz.com/278237/heres-how...

  63. Goldman sachs by mundlapati · · Score: 1

    In GS everybody is VP with different payouts

  64. Gullibility on display by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "Occupy Wall St" theme was cooked-up by left-wing political activists as a panicked response to the Rise of the TEA Party on the right. In the aftermath of the 2008 meltdown and the public anger at Wall St Bankers, there was a fear on the left that the rise of the TEA Party (which grew spontaneously across the country after a CNBC host (NOT some Fox News person) ranted on national TV might lead to populist anger in America benefitting the political right (funny, really, given that the GOP in Washington was just as freaked-out by the TEA Party - just google John McCain and TEA Party). In response, some on the left tried to organize a left version of the TEA Party - the "Occupy Movement", but given that it was NOT actually organic, they needed lots of cash to fund the leaders and organizers and even to pay some of the early "protesters" to get initial demonstrations that would in-turn draw in other legitimate protesters.

    It was set up by a socialist political group in Canada and partly funded by cash washed through the "Alliance for Global Justice" after being washed through the "Open Society Institute" which is operated by famous actual proud NAZI (the REAL 1940's era-brown-shirted type) collaborator billionaire George Soros. It seems that national socialists and international socialists still have a lot in common.

    In contrast, there WAS no money pipeline from billionaires to the founders of the TEA Party groups around the US when they started. It took nearly a year for the wealthy donor class to decide if they should fear the people showing up in tri-corn hats. A few wealthy donors then DID offer support to certain TEA Party groups, but others tried to take over TEA Party groups that had arisen on their own (one of which had to confront an old establishment Republican former congressman who was in their office with a gun demanding he had a right to run the place) and most of the rich donors on the right are still actively-funding the GOP fight against the TEA people. On the Left, Soros and his wealthy buddies at the Tides Foundation are the big funders of everything INCLUDING the Occupy people (same funders for both the left-wing establishment AND the left-wing agitators)

    The only people in "Occupy" for whom it was about "the system being corrupt" were the people fooled into thinking it was anything other than a political backfire lit by the leaders of the left to try to suck the air out of a wildfire burning over the hill on the right. Some of the most vocal supporters of Occupy were the very Democrats in congress (lots of their speeches are on YouTube) who put in place the policies that made Wall St Banks "too big to fail", who voted to bail those banks out, and who then wrote and passed the Dodd-Frank bill to consolidate the Wall St Banks even further making them even "too bigger to fail" [bad grammar intended] and a future bigger bailout almost certain while not only NOT reigning-in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the government loan agencies at the heart of the 2008 meltdown) but actually making things WORSE by having the government take-over all student loans (What could POSSIBLY go wrong with that, right?)

  65. so....you didn't read the book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or you have very poor reading comprehension.

    Galt does NOT start a terrorist org. He just encourages all the people in the creative classes (NOT all the rich people or all the CEOs) to stop creating and innovating and letting other people demand a "right" to the results of their productive efforts. The Galt character, and the book, celebrate the hard-working average man, and the inventor, the composer of music, the architect, the industrialist, the doctor, the hard-working responsible train engineer, etc. who make the world a better place NOT because they set out to or because they boast that they do but rather as a simple consequence of doing what they want to do and what they are good at. Terrorism is NOT aligned with the heroes of the book. All the people who destroy things as part of the strike are destroying the stuff they themselves own and created (the oil man destroys his own oil field, the mine man blows up his own mine eliminating the money of a bunch of financial speculators as a bonus, the factory men walk away and let things fall apart when the new operators lack the knowledge to keep them running, etc), in order to block others from taking it and using it (this includes the "pirate"). This is a perfectly consistent theme: her characters assert that nobody else has a natural right to use them or their stuff without proper compensation fairly negotiated (between parties who have each brought something of value to the bargaining table, rather than between somebody with something of value and somebody pointing a gun). When they are told to produce by government bureaucrats without just compensation "for the public good" these characters remove their production from the marketplace and go on strike (something the Left LOVES when it's workers, but seems to hate when it's creators outside of Hollywood).

    Rand's writing style is a bit rough, and her attempts at romantic writing are quite cringe-worthy. The movies are much quicker and easier for a modern audience, but are severely constrained by both budgets and the passage of time. Budgets seem to have led to a few marginal visuals and probably drove the swap-outs of actors and actresses in many roles between each of the three films. Time? Well, the story was written at a time when Americans still used passenger rail and ocean liners more than airlines for travel, which is integral to the story and affects many story elements; this filmmakers made an honorable effort to fix this problem by adding an economic collapse to the beginning of their version of the tale to force that railroads back to the center of the economy (it only sort-of works).

    Rand's primary rant is that people have the right to the results of their own work and their own ingenuity and that to the extent they help others it is by their own free will. Her villains are those who get in the middle between those who produce and those who need help, standing between these two groups using politics and the force of government to take from the producers then pretending to be the benevolent providers as they "give" a portion of their ill-gotten gains to those in need (taking all the moral credit for the "charity" while getting rich and powerful from what they skim-off). The simple-minded modern leftist criticism of Rand is that she hates the poor or hates charity, none of which is true. She favors REAL charity, where individuals are free to choose to help others if they wish, in the ways they wish, and for whatever reasons THEY choose to. She and her stories oppose FAKE charity; armed robbery pretending to be a moral good.