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Section 5.3 of the Debian Java FAQ sums up the present licensing issues that prevent Debian from including Sun Java.

In this mail (near the end) http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003 /08/msg00010.html we can read that the planned release date for sarge was december 2003 (it was released in june 2005). So, maybe 2008 for etch..

At least we will see how was the Debian update infrastructure improved since last time, when it brought the server down on its knees.

At least we will see how was the Debian update infrastructure improved since last time, when it brought the server down on its knees.

I currently avoid Java like the plauge, my reasons are the same reasons that java isnt included in debian... http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-java-faq/ ch5.html#s-license-concerns if they address those license concers i would be much happier...

Debian is simply a platform for running software. It is just a part of your system. There is no reason why Java should not be another part. Is your BIOS from debian? How about the code embedded in your graphics card? Is your processor open source?

SML with MLton (optimizing compiler) fares better than Ocaml, according to this:

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/ml.php
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/ocaml.php

Two SML implementations are SML/NJ, MoscowML.

SML with MLton (optimizing compiler) fares better than Ocaml, according to this:

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/ml.php
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/ocaml.php

Two SML implementations are SML/NJ, MoscowML.

I currently avoid Java like the plauge, my reasons are the same reasons that java isnt included in debian... http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-java-faq/ ch5.html#s-license-concerns if they address those license concers i would be much happier...

First of all, I am not a user of *BSD, although I do appreciate their goals. I am a Debian user and have been one for quite some time now.

One fact to appreciate about Debian is that it is loosing its ties to the Linux kernel and becoming more and more general, now including even BSD efforts (like the kfreebsd5 port).

So, even though I am a Debian user, I have this secret appreciation for all the work that the BSD people have done and continue to do and I am downloading the OpenBSD release from the torrent site listed in the parent post (that is http://openbsd.somedomain.net/).

We all know that these smaller projects don't have big companies supporting them financially and one thing that other people could do to help visibility (and, in the long term, more users, and, perhaps, even commercial support) is to promote OpenBSD.

This starts with being kind on their servers and helping with the serving of the release for others, keeping your torrent clients open and serving others. Please, do help others "free" their machines with Free Software.

I'm doing my small share helping others to "get their foot wet" with the support for the torrent.

Regards, Rogério Brito.

First of all, I am not a user of *BSD, although I do appreciate their goals. I am a Debian user and have been one for quite some time now.

One fact to appreciate about Debian is that it is loosing its ties to the Linux kernel and becoming more and more general, now including even BSD efforts (like the kfreebsd5 port).

So, even though I am a Debian user, I have this secret appreciation for all the work that the BSD people have done and continue to do and I am downloading the OpenBSD release from the torrent site listed in the parent post (that is http://openbsd.somedomain.net/).

We all know that these smaller projects don't have big companies supporting them financially and one thing that other people could do to help visibility (and, in the long term, more users, and, perhaps, even commercial support) is to promote OpenBSD.

This starts with being kind on their servers and helping with the serving of the release for others, keeping your torrent clients open and serving others. Please, do help others "free" their machines with Free Software.

I'm doing my small share helping others to "get their foot wet" with the support for the torrent.

Regards, Rogério Brito.

Not to knock ubuntu, fedora, freespire, and opensuse, but the Debian community has been around since 1993. It is a highly evolved community with established processes for handling the politics, policy, and code developed for it. It is interesting that Debian isn't even mentioned by the OP. The Debian community, IMHO, is the model for everything else.

Something like Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is very similar to this!

(The concept is that you can use KDE with other window managers instead of kwin)

Wow, a metapackage dependacy PROVES that KDE is bloated! Perhaps you should learn about "dpkg-query".

http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kde-core

"This metapackage includes the core official modules released with KDE. This includes just the basic desktop (browser, file manager, text editor, control center, panel, etc.) and important libraries and data, in addition to the aRts soundserver."

If that's still too large for you:

http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kdebase

"This package depends on the minimum number of packages to provide a simple yet fully functional KDE desktop."

Wow, a metapackage dependacy PROVES that KDE is bloated! Perhaps you should learn about "dpkg-query".

http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kde-core

"This metapackage includes the core official modules released with KDE. This includes just the basic desktop (browser, file manager, text editor, control center, panel, etc.) and important libraries and data, in addition to the aRts soundserver."

If that's still too large for you:

http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kdebase

"This package depends on the minimum number of packages to provide a simple yet fully functional KDE desktop."

This is the *SINGLE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE* of Linux and open-source software.

Since the compiler (gcc) works (as proven by the fact that Linux compiled), ALL THESE SOFTWARE PACKAGES are available - including firewall software used by Cisco, supercomputing software used by most of the top 500 supercomputers, office software used by Munich and Massachusetts, rendering software used by ILM, etc.

Of course if you want 16-or-32-bit windows software you're best off running it on a 16-or-32-bit windows machine. But if you're trying to solve an actual problem rather than run one particular brand of software, you'll easily find what you need for this system.

You should compare it to a mac mini and tell me if anything is not made in China these days.

Red Flag, Microsoft, same thing. Good thing you don't need either. Expect to see a lot of activity with Debian MIPS.

Debian doesn't have a purely merit based admission process: Check out http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-step5:

Step 5: Recommendation

When the Applicant has completed the tasks and skills tests, expressed an understanding of the Social Contract, the Debian Free Software Guidelines and Debian Policies and Procedures and been properly identified, it is time for the Application Manager to make a final report to the Front Desk and the Debian Account Manager.

This report includes statements from the Advocate and other people who have worked with the Applicant, the completed identification information, all discussions between the Application Manager and the Applicant and details about the Skill checks, as well a comment from the Application Manager.

The Application Manager will include a recommentation to either accept or reject the Applicant.

At least they call themselves downstream:

Very enlightening. Particularly the third (this one).

I noticed that the stock xpdf that is installed by Ubuntu's repositories (Universe) is the regular one from foolabs.com, which "respects" the nocopy/noprint flags; however the discussion on the Debian mailinglists seems to indicate what appears to be a consensus for including a version with a flag option ("--ignoreperms" or similar); does anyone know if any of these patches have been integrated into the mainline Debian version? I couldn't find any information just by looking at the package's site; since Ubuntu is branched from debian-unstable I'm guessing that it's not been integrated.

IMO it should; integrating a "Are you sure you want to ignore settings?" patch seems totally in line with at least my understanding of the Debian philosophy.

A computer is like a pocket knife. It's a tool, which has many uses. It's not the responsibility of the maker of the tool to look over the user's shoulders. Powerful tools can by their nature be used for good and bad, in the same way that I can use a pocket knife to carve wood or stab someone. (Albeit perhaps ineffectually; maybe that analogy would have been better with an axe or nailgun.)

Going offtopic here for a moment: Some days I wish the people at the PLF would put out a distro. Call it "Useful Linux." Combine together all the tools that are prohibited or that you have to jump through obnoxious hoops in order to use in various parts of the world -- proprietary driver licenses, encryption, DVD playback, audio codecs, DRM removal/ignorance. The hell with the licenses, the hell with local laws, put it all in there, release it as a Live CD, hosted only from Free countries / on PirateBay-type BT trackers. I think it would just blow people away to use an OS that didn't have any artificial limitations on it out of the box, just for once; an OS created as it ought to be created in the absence of political meddling. Not so much as an actual distro -- I'm not suggesting that it be maintained -- more as just a statement, a one-off curiosity.

On a side note, does anyone know of a PDF viewer program that ignores the "No Print / No Copy" restrictions?

Yes indeed, there're several!

abandoning the gnome project would mean discarding several years of hard work, for no good readon

For Debian based systems there is gdebi.

If you have it you can just double click a .deb package and it installs. I've only tried it twice and those were packages for which I already had the dependencies installed, but supposedly it works as smoothly as if you had used apt. Actually I think it does use apt, it's just that it can be used for a .deb package that you already have sitting on your hard-drive.

Development-wise, how much is Debian's FreeBSD port from Debian versus FreeBSD? Or are its advancements in tandem with both projects. And does either half suffer from the combination of the other?

It looks like the "new spiffy graphical installation" only works under the LiveCD. Perhaps the Ubuntu folks should work with the Debian folks to finish the gtk frontend for d-i. That way they could have a "real" graphical installer.

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/GUI

Just when I was about to post a Devil's Advocate example of Linux distros similarly hiding the nitty gritty details of security patches I hunted around and found most all patches give the details. Here's just one random example.So tooo-shaaaay.

How difficult is it to do any of the following?

1) dpkg -l "*" | grep -i mailman

2) blindly do apt-get install mailman and see what happens

3) search for mailman on the Debian website http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages If you put mailman in the searchbox it tells you where you can download it for 11 different computer architectures.

4) search for mailman on the web using google. The first link is http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html where you can download the source and look at the above average documentation on the site.

5) be a power user, and do a google search for debian mailman and the first link is http://packages.debian.org/stable/mail/mailman

Maybe I'm a Linux snob because I can install software on a Linux machine and know how to type keywords into google. But I believe that with 5 easy and well known methods of installing a very common and popular application should be enough for any competent computer user can handle. I believe that it is people like you that give Linux a bad name. Kinda like this bozo:

    http://www.centos.org/modules/news/article.php?sto ryid=127

How difficult is it to do any of the following?

1) dpkg -l "*" | grep -i mailman

2) blindly do apt-get install mailman and see what happens

3) search for mailman on the Debian website http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages If you put mailman in the searchbox it tells you where you can download it for 11 different computer architectures.

4) search for mailman on the web using google. The first link is http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html where you can download the source and look at the above average documentation on the site.

5) be a power user, and do a google search for debian mailman and the first link is http://packages.debian.org/stable/mail/mailman

Maybe I'm a Linux snob because I can install software on a Linux machine and know how to type keywords into google. But I believe that with 5 easy and well known methods of installing a very common and popular application should be enough for any competent computer user can handle. I believe that it is people like you that give Linux a bad name. Kinda like this bozo:

    http://www.centos.org/modules/news/article.php?sto ryid=127

Nice is another JVM-based language that could do with a mention. It puts more emphasis on programming correctness than Groovy, including features such as pre-conditions and post-conditions and safety from NullPointerExceptions. According to the Computer Language shootout, it compares favourably to Java in terms of speed and efficiency, whilst Groovy somehow manages to be several hundred times slower in places.

Nice is another JVM-based language that could do with a mention. It puts more emphasis on programming correctness than Groovy, including features such as pre-conditions and post-conditions and safety from NullPointerExceptions. According to the Computer Language shootout, it compares favourably to Java in terms of speed and efficiency, whilst Groovy somehow manages to be several hundred times slower in places.

I can't think of any reason people would choose C or Java over Ruby.

Even other scripting languages like Perl, Lua, or Python would clearly be foolish choices as well.

Seriously, Ruby's a great, well thought-out language, but if you listened to the hype you'd think that there couldn't possibly be anything better for any task at all. The fanboyism that's grown up around the language is starting to become really irritating.

I can't think of any reason people would choose C or Java over Ruby.

Even other scripting languages like Perl, Lua, or Python would clearly be foolish choices as well.

Seriously, Ruby's a great, well thought-out language, but if you listened to the hype you'd think that there couldn't possibly be anything better for any task at all. The fanboyism that's grown up around the language is starting to become really irritating.

I can't think of any reason people would choose C or Java over Ruby.

Even other scripting languages like Perl, Lua, or Python would clearly be foolish choices as well.

Seriously, Ruby's a great, well thought-out language, but if you listened to the hype you'd think that there couldn't possibly be anything better for any task at all. The fanboyism that's grown up around the language is starting to become really irritating.

I can't think of any reason people would choose C or Java over Ruby.

Even other scripting languages like Perl, Lua, or Python would clearly be foolish choices as well.

Seriously, Ruby's a great, well thought-out language, but if you listened to the hype you'd think that there couldn't possibly be anything better for any task at all. The fanboyism that's grown up around the language is starting to become really irritating.

I can't think of any reason people would choose C or Java over Ruby.

Even other scripting languages like Perl, Lua, or Python would clearly be foolish choices as well.

Seriously, Ruby's a great, well thought-out language, but if you listened to the hype you'd think that there couldn't possibly be anything better for any task at all. The fanboyism that's grown up around the language is starting to become really irritating.

The package you're thinking of is vrms, the virtual Richard M. Stallman. It only scans your dpkg database though, so doesn't catch manually installed non-free software, only the non-free stuff installed via apt or similar mechanisms.

This release started as a copy of sarge, and is currently in a state called testing. That means that things should not break as badly as in unstable or experimental distributions, because packages are allowed to enter this distribution only after a certain period of time has passed, and when they don't have any release-critical bugs filed against them.

Neither testing nor unstable is suitable for a non-development machine.

I like how nobody in this thread, including the parent actually tried to investigate the problem. mod_security is gpl'd and available in Debian as libapache2-mod-security, so wtf are you talking about? Next time try to actually look for the packages before claiming that they don't exist.

In general, though, Debian already does what you ask for. It has a main distribution, for software that meets the Debian Free Software Guidelines, and a non-free distribution for other software. If Debian doesn't distribute something (officially), there is probably a serious legal hindrance, and other distributions like Red Hat probably don't distribute it either. However, also like Red Hat, there are unofficial repositories you can use to get these packages if you don't care about the ethical/legal issues. I don't really see why this should or how this could be easier. Anything more automagical, like /etc/allow-packages, would be a legal problem for Debian to support officially.

Go download mod_security and look at the license, it is GPL.

That's actually the reason it was removed from Debian; from what I gather, it uses Apache headers that are licensed under the Apache License, which is apparently incompatible with the GPL. Here's the relevant bug: #313615

Disclaimer: I haven't done enough research to have an opinion on whether this removal was justified or not.

Firstly, congrats and good luck to Anthony from an avid Debian user.

Having read the article and AT's campaign platform I got the sense that the project really needs not only direction, but also a leader who can steer the project while keeping people onboard and happy. This means leading the people as well as managing the project.

It seems that bickering and infighting are open source projects' achilles' heel due to strong personalities and oversensitive or overinflated egos. I hope Anthony does a good job at making the Debian team as strong as their product is already.

But I dont give a fuck. Microsoft Windows fucking sucks. The box I am on right now is Windows. If you want to stand for this shit then fine do whatever you please. But until you decide to use FreeBSD or one of the many other alternatives like one of my favorites Gentoo Linux or Debian Lunix or one of the many others... Stop bitching about rights erosion. Excuses about market share and running easily managed homogenous networks are tired. If you cannot use a computer... Don't use one. Nothing is private. Especially now. If it wasn't a computer giant watching us it would be a media company or something else. Everyone has an axe to grind, this is just another example of that. People are paranoid now because of the massive FUD that has been disseminated by hollywood in movies like Swordfish, the many claims of "spying" unbiased liberal and conservative media has been bashing the public with lately and over the years. Not to mention that we all already have a bar code implanted in us... It's called a social security number. If you believe you aren't being watched well. You are mistaken. Nothing is private. The first reason to switch from Windows should be because it fucking sucks. Then you should worry about your (already) non private data.

Rather than throw old PCs into the trash and fueling the waste problem find new uses for them.

For example, old PCs 386 or later, can be reused as a router/firewall. They provide excellent security for your home LAN while keeping it out of the waste pile. Being floppy based, Freesco does NOT require a hard disk! Install the software and reuse the PC or give it to someone who will. See:

http://www.freesco.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREESCO/

Later PCs, such Pentium 400 MHz or later, can be reused as MythTV PVRs by adding an inexpensive TV tuner ($20-$30) I have gotten PCs as old as P2 266MHz 128 MB to have some limited PVR functionality. (contact me if interested in old PC PVRs)

http://amicus.sourceforge.net/

Practically any PC, 386 or better, can run lightweight Linux distributions such as DSL or Debian for general purpose computing.

http://damnsmalllinux.org/
http://debian.org/

These are just three low cost methods I have personally used to recycle old computers. Use your imagination and Google, and you can see there are many other options too. Don't throw it away, make the old PC into something useful reuse it or give it to someone who will!

Andrew Lynch

Yes, partnering with Redhat to make a distro is going to make things difficult. But if you give it a brief amount of love, it can easily work. Until two years ago, I ran Debian on a machine with very similar specs, although it did have more disk space. The base install of Debian takes up over 500 megabytes. Localization for a langauge other than english may require up to another 200. The "desktop task" on Debian takes up almost 2 gigs. Although this installs both KDE and GNOME, clearly this system isn't designed for a 100 dollar laptop market that doesn't exist. If rather than install you cook up a single image for all these devices, then KDE+GNOME is down to 1.3 Gigabytes. This is still too damn big. I don't know offhand what eats up a lot of debian's base, but its clear the big guys aren't after this non-existant market at the moment.

However, its not impossible, moreover, its been done before. Fuck, theres even a HOWTO on the subject. There's also several distros and projects on the subject, but many of them have died out as the need for them has waned. In short, you cant just put fedora core on your 512M CF card, and if you expected this, you're much further from done than you think.

Check out localpurge: http://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/localepurg e

He's also famous for this notorious thread.

Slashdot trolls got good use out of that material for months. Years, maybe.

If you have never had a pain in the ass installing software on Linux let alone finding a specific app then I want what your smokin.

Sure, you can get some here.

Other sources (like the pre-bootcamp MacMiniIntel page on the Debian wiki) require a kernel patch.

What are the differences between Eiffel and other free object oriented programming languages? What does Eiffel have that Ruby, Python, and Java do not?

Compared to Ruby, Python and Java the biggest thing Eiffel has going for it is raw speed. Consider the benchmarks and you'll see Eiffel is much much faster than Java, with considerably less memory use. You get that sort of performance from a langauge with an exceptionally clean, well designed and engineered OO system, and great support for Design by Contract, and a very clear readable syntax: learning Eiffel is very easy.

If you're doing very dynamic work that really calls for the flexibility of Python or Ruby, then Eiffel probably isn't for you. If you want something to build robust complex large scale systems then Eiffel is actually better than Java for producing robust, well documented, reusable, maintainable code - and its faster to boot. Java, of course, has its own advantages in terms of "run anywhere" and its huge standard library, but Eiffel is well worth acquainting yourself with.

Jedidiah.

The freedom Stallman believes in is an aristocratic one. Freedom, sure, but for those with the resources. But instead of rich political families doing whatever they want while the masses are entirely unfree, we have software developers with all the opportunity to be free and end users we none of the opportunity

Yet when it comes to something we all can do in a fully literate society, read and write, freedom doesn't apply. This post specifically:

I value freedom in documentation just as much as I do for programs. I value it so much that I designed the GFDL specifically to induce commercial publishers to publish free documentation.

...

This reminded me of another relevant difference between manuals and software. It is harder to find good technical writers as volunteers than good programmers as volunteers. So I decided it was worth while going quite close to the line, in the GFDL, to try to induce commercial publishers to use it. I would not think of going so close to the line in a software license, since I know there's no need.

I don't believe that political essays ought to be free in the same sense as documentation or software, for instance. I have stated these views in numerous speeches.

The freedom Stallman believes in is an aristocratic one. Freedom, sure, but for those with the resources. But instead of rich political families doing whatever they want while the masses are entirely unfree, we have software developers with all the opportunity to be free and end users we none of the opportunity

Yet when it comes to something we all can do in a fully literate society, read and write, freedom doesn't apply. This post specifically:

I value freedom in documentation just as much as I do for programs. I value it so much that I designed the GFDL specifically to induce commercial publishers to publish free documentation.

...

This reminded me of another relevant difference between manuals and software. It is harder to find good technical writers as volunteers than good programmers as volunteers. So I decided it was worth while going quite close to the line, in the GFDL, to try to induce commercial publishers to use it. I would not think of going so close to the line in a software license, since I know there's no need.

I don't believe that political essays ought to be free in the same sense as documentation or software, for instance. I have stated these views in numerous speeches.

Sun may not be dodgy. The installer is. Call it snobbery if you will, but as a Debian user I expect a level of quality from software packages that a third party binary installer can not provide.

I don't know about other distributions, but Debian has principles that are not going to be changed just to include Java.

PS - tell me how one can run the installer without using the command line! :)