Domain: deskthority.net
Stories and comments across the archive that link to deskthority.net.
Comments · 33
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A contoured one
Kinesis Advantage or a custom one.
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Don't replace the keyboard, improve it!
QWERTY are two things: A physical layout of keys in rows and a logical mapping of symbols to those keys. Dvorak is only the latter.
There is a movement for changing the physical layout, from rows to a column for each finger, which can improve typing speed and accuracy, as well as being touted as more ergonomic. These are also often separated into a part for each hand.
This idea is not new, but almost as old as typewriters themselves. Schools for QWERTY divided the keyboard into columns for use with different fingers. The Blickensderfer typewriter with its "Scientific layout" from the late 1800's and Lilian Malt's Maltron from the 1970's (onwards) changed both physical layout to a columnar and logical mapping to a more logical, and I suspect that it was the unusual logical mappings that prevented adoption of those more than anything.
The Kinesis company has made its "contoured" ergonomic keyboards for decades -- with QWERTY or Dvorak, but they are not common.
Columnar ergonomic computer keyboards used to be common in Japan in the 1980s, mainly for the NEC PC-8800 computers, but IBM squashed that platform, partly through political pressure.In the recent decade there has also been a resurgence in keyboards with mechanical switches, partly as a reaction to what I think has been a regression in keyboard design towards having flatter, cheaper keyboards.
As animals, we touch and feel. We think spatially. Things are more intuitive when they are things and not abstract concepts.
Mechanical keyboards feel more substantial, and often provide better ergonomic shapes and better tactile feedback than the common muck that is usually bundled with a new computer. Mechanical keyboards also have keys and switches as discrete components, which has made development of mech keyboards more accessible to hobbyists.There are now dozens of different homebrew, custom and kits out there for mechanical keyboards -- with columnar layouts. Split, contoured, "orthonormal" grids, shifted columns, etc. Many of them are Open Hardware.
The most famous is the ErgoDox, which is manufactured by multiple companies. It has also got several successors, with different tweaks to the physical layout.
While mainstream hardware manufacturers are now making keyboards with mechanical switches (for "gamers" ... ) you don't see many "ergonomic" keyboards in the mainstream any more, which is a shame. -
Re:How is this better than a Model M?
Some connoisseurs find that the Model F's mechanism has a somewhat nicer feel than the Model M's.
Because the sensing is capacitive and not using a measly membrane, the mechanism is more durable and allows for N-key rollover.Also, Unicomp does not make the Model M in a compact form factor (relatively speaking). IBM used to have a Space-Saving Keyboard back in the day, but vintage "SSK"s on the second-hand market are quite sought-after and therefore pricey.
The build-quality of the buckling spring keyboards has also gradually gone down throughout the years. The Model F keyboards of old had case parts of parts of metal. Even the first Model M keyboards weight about half a kg (about a lb) more than those Model M keyboards made by Unicomp (and the last IBM-branded ones before that).
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Re:How is this better than a Model M?
Some connoisseurs find that the Model F's mechanism has a somewhat nicer feel than the Model M's.
Because the sensing is capacitive and not using a measly membrane, the mechanism is more durable and allows for N-key rollover.Also, Unicomp does not make the Model M in a compact form factor (relatively speaking). IBM used to have a Space-Saving Keyboard back in the day, but vintage "SSK"s on the second-hand market are quite sought-after and therefore pricey.
The build-quality of the buckling spring keyboards has also gradually gone down throughout the years. The Model F keyboards of old had case parts of parts of metal. Even the first Model M keyboards weight about half a kg (about a lb) more than those Model M keyboards made by Unicomp (and the last IBM-branded ones before that).
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Re:How is this better than a Model M?
Some connoisseurs find that the Model F's mechanism has a somewhat nicer feel than the Model M's.
Because the sensing is capacitive and not using a measly membrane, the mechanism is more durable and allows for N-key rollover.Also, Unicomp does not make the Model M in a compact form factor (relatively speaking). IBM used to have a Space-Saving Keyboard back in the day, but vintage "SSK"s on the second-hand market are quite sought-after and therefore pricey.
The build-quality of the buckling spring keyboards has also gradually gone down throughout the years. The Model F keyboards of old had case parts of parts of metal. Even the first Model M keyboards weight about half a kg (about a lb) more than those Model M keyboards made by Unicomp (and the last IBM-branded ones before that).
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Re:True, but only to a point
I paid $2,000 for one of these https://deskthority.net/wiki/Basis_108 in 1982. I had a lot of fun with it, whether or not it was cool
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Re: Nothing of significance
No headphone jack. Fewer keys than a VT-100 terminal. Lame.
Hey, even my current MacBook Pro, which does have a headphone jack, has fewer keys than a VT100, so it's not as if the rumored touch-bar-instead-of-a-function-key-row and might-not-have-a-headphone-jack new MacBook Pro is what put them below the VT100.
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Re: The problem is keyboards
Here is a link that might be of interest.
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Re:This has long been settled
I am a keyboard geek, and I collect all info I can get on split ergonomic keyboards.
I found that among different keyboard brands there is about a 2:1 ratio of having the '6' key on the left vs. right.
I suspect however that most brands have it on the left, because of Microsoft. (Above, I counted Microsoft as one, and discarded all direct clones.)
On keyboards with columns instead of rows, the '6' key is always on the right side, in the same columns as 'Y', 'H' and 'N'.I know of one keyboard with the '6' key on both sides:
Kinesis Evolution. -
a lot of small things
cases (avr-dragon, beaglebone)
replacement parts (e.g. knobs for scope, handle for a valve, dust cover for a bicycle pedal
...)coil spools
holder type things (e.g. PSU holder, HDD holder, CPU water cooler holder,
...)toys for kids (e.g. a planetary gear assembly to teach them how it works)
improvement parts for the 3d printer itself
prototyping stuff (e.g. usable ergonomic contoured keyboard case)
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"Best"?
Guess that has to be my main server, even though it's a few generations older than my desktop, it has more cores, more IO, more memory and more storage. It runs FreeBSD.
Case: SuperChassis 745TQ-R800B (pic)
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DTN+
CPUs: 2 x 6-core Xeon L5639 @ 2.13GHz
RAM: 144GB - 9 x 16GB DDR3-1333 ECC Reg
Primary Storage: 2 x SanDisk Extreme Pro 960GB, ZFS mirror.
Mass Storage: 6 x 5TB Toshiba MD04ACA5, ZFS 3 x mirror.
Disk controller: IBM M1015, seems one of the most favoured HBA's these days.
Keyboard: NTC KB-6153EA with clicky White Alps.
I play with search engines and stuff, the memory comes in handy and I got it for a great price.
Desktop is a 32GB ECC quad core Haswell Xeon mumble mumble running Windows 8.1, with a pair of 30" 1600p monitors and a 20" 1600x1200. Nice having space to put stuff. Also nice having memory that doesn't silently corrupt itself every few months, you crazy kids and your non-parity.
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Re:Some PS/2 Model Ms don't work with USB...
Model Ms that don't work with a passive PS/2-USB connector generally do work with an active one like the Blue Cube.
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Re:Won't work for long...
However, keyboards and keyboard converters are easily available which can do macros in the hardware.
Soarer's. Blue Cube. Tipro. Cherry G86 (and even some G80 and G81). Xkeys. All hardware-programmable (and that's just off the top of my head). Even if you can detect the use of "illegal macro software", what about the hardware options?
Which makes me ask, what the hell is an "illegal macro" anyhow? If something is so predictable that it can be scripted and bound to a single key, then it shouldn't really take multiple presses of a key to do it in the first place. This is not just limited to games, it extends to all software where I want to do a single, moderately tortuous task efficiently and often.
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Re:Won't work for long...
However, keyboards and keyboard converters are easily available which can do macros in the hardware.
Soarer's. Blue Cube. Tipro. Cherry G86 (and even some G80 and G81). Xkeys. All hardware-programmable (and that's just off the top of my head). Even if you can detect the use of "illegal macro software", what about the hardware options?
Which makes me ask, what the hell is an "illegal macro" anyhow? If something is so predictable that it can be scripted and bound to a single key, then it shouldn't really take multiple presses of a key to do it in the first place. This is not just limited to games, it extends to all software where I want to do a single, moderately tortuous task efficiently and often.
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Re:Split
Try finding a Cherry G80-5000. Adjustable split keyboard. Haven't used mine in a long time, because it feels like I can't afford breaking or even just any kind of wear.
Seconded. Mine is labeled "MODELL MX 5000", and others are called the ErgoPlus, but they're all basically the same keyboard. I didn't realize what a high quality device it was when I bought my first one. I've now been coding and gaming on it for well over a decade, and it still works beautifully. Even the flexible plastic parts show no sign of damage.
The split angle is completely adjustable, from very wide to no split at all, so it will fit just about any shoulder width and can be temporarily collapsed for guests.
It has Cherry brown switches. I can feel when they engage, but they don't click, so typing noise comes mainly from the key caps bottoming out.
The numeric keypad is detached (and can be unplugged) from the main unit. This is great for right-handed gamers, because it can be moved to the left side of the keyboard and the mouse can be brought in closer.
I originally bought the Cherry 5000 because it was the most comfortable model in the ergo shop at a reasonable price. After a year of using it and a touchpad, my RSI issues were greatly reduced and I was able to go back to using a mouse. After a couple more years, my RSI issues were gone.
It's a real shame they discontinued this model, and not at all surprising that they sell for $500-1000 on ebay. I'd probably pay that much if mine disappeared. It's the only keyboard I've ever liked, and I expect it to last a very long time.
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Re:Off the shelf answers are out there.
Oh, incidentally, the thread I posted to may be of considerable interest here.
http://deskthority.net/keyboar...
Ironically, it's the tale of a guy who goes to the completely opposite extreme and then wonders why some people would dare to disagree with him.
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Re:6 key on the left side
Just because Americans are taught to press the 6 key with their right hand it's not the best way to go. We Hungarians are taught to press it with our left hand. Using your left hand is more ergonomical because you don't have to reach out so far. More info at http://deskthority.net/keyboar...
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All the Cherry info you'd ever want...
I forget the brand name of my keyboard, but I sprang for a cheap one with Cherry MX Black switches.
The mechanical keyboard I bought almost ten years ago has Cherry MX Black switches apparently. It's certainly lasted, but although I'm still using it to type this message on, I've always felt that the spring resistance was just a *little* too stiff to be truly pleasurable to touch-type on. (Something I've since read elsewhere).
The Cherry MX Red has the same "linear" key action I bought the Black-based keyboard for, but with less resistance, and having used a Red-based keyboard, it's closer to what I had in mind when I bought the Black one (mail order). Mind you, the Red switches apparently weren't around back then anyway.
Cherry MX Reds are supposedly too sensitive for touch-typing, and intended for gaming keyboards, but I (as a non-gamer) am still considering buying one.
Of course, all the above is a matter of personal preference; if possible, you should always try out a mechanical keyboard- or at least one based on the same technology- if the feel of it is important. (And you probably wouldn't be bothering to buy a mechanical one if it wasn't!)
FWIW, while I was researching new keyboards a couple of months back, I came across these, both of which are useful in explaining the different types of Cherry switch:-
An introduction to Cherry MX mechanical switches
Cherry MX overview
Note that these colour codings only apply to official Cherry switches, not unofficial clones derived from their patent-expired design. For example, Razer commissioned a custom "green" switch from another manufacturer, which is apparently similar to the official Cherry MX Blue (rather than the Cherry MX Green). -
Biased summary
These are better than the rubber domes found in membrane keyboards in a number of ways, including feel, responsiveness, and durability
No, that is not technically correct, and is somewhat of an elitist attitude.
Feel is something very subjective. Responsiveness and durability depends on the particular brand and type of switch that you use. There are some very good rubber-dome and scissor switches as well as there are mechanical switches that are crap.Back in the '80s and early '90s when mechanical key switches was the norm there were more types available. These days, the market is dominated by the Cherry MX. It was one of the better mechanical switches then and now and it comes in several varieties. These varieties can feel quite different from each other, and you might like the feel of one, all or none of them - and that is OK.
The Cherry MX has also been cloned several times by other manufacturers, often in lesser materials and with larger tolerances.
The big durability argument with Cherry MX is not that they wouldn't break: because they sometimes do. The durability advantage is that you could replace individual key switches (or parts) that have broken. -
Biased summary
These are better than the rubber domes found in membrane keyboards in a number of ways, including feel, responsiveness, and durability
No, that is not technically correct, and is somewhat of an elitist attitude.
Feel is something very subjective. Responsiveness and durability depends on the particular brand and type of switch that you use. There are some very good rubber-dome and scissor switches as well as there are mechanical switches that are crap.Back in the '80s and early '90s when mechanical key switches was the norm there were more types available. These days, the market is dominated by the Cherry MX. It was one of the better mechanical switches then and now and it comes in several varieties. These varieties can feel quite different from each other, and you might like the feel of one, all or none of them - and that is OK.
The Cherry MX has also been cloned several times by other manufacturers, often in lesser materials and with larger tolerances.
The big durability argument with Cherry MX is not that they wouldn't break: because they sometimes do. The durability advantage is that you could replace individual key switches (or parts) that have broken. -
Old keyboards are great
I still use the first keyboard I ever bought. It is a Cherry G80-1000 (Made in Western Germany) that I got in the early 90s. See http://deskthority.net/wiki/Ch... I have to take it apart and clean it again, but other than that it works the same great way as it did when I took it out of the box. It was rather expensive back then, but it is probably the best tech investment I ever made. And the best: No Windows Keys! They constantly get in the way and there is something inherently wrong with linking general use hardware to some specific piece of software. The only downside of the G80-1000 is the current draw. It is right at the limit of what DIN->PS/2->USB converters can handle. When the cold, long winter days come I might look into hooking up a 5V power supply to the keyboard to give the USB converter a better chance. At times I also use these ultra cheap 2$ Dell keyboards....just horrible! If it has to be a cheap USB keyboard I'd go with the Logitech K120, have a few of those even as wireless version and they work quite nicely.
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Re:M15 was the best
http://deskthority.net/wiki/IB...
The M15 was the subject of a patent dispute from Mark Goldstein, founder of the Goldtouch company, over the design of the adjustable ball joint, and was settled by a subsequent licensing agreement. In late 1995, Lexmark sold off certain designs and tooling relating to buckling spring keyboards, including the tooling necessary to make the M15, to Maxiswitch. Maxiswitch never produced any M15 keyboards themselves, and attempts to reacquire the tooling by interested parties have proved unsuccessful.
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Re:Ergonomic 'Split' Keyboards! :D
Have you considered getting a Windows 8 tablet with a separate keyboard? I have seen a guy use a Surface Pro with a Happy Hacking Keyboard instead of a laptop.
There are lots of small foldable bluetooth keyboards out there, for use with tablets and cell phones. I think that a manufacturer could make one that is properly split in the middle.
Last October, I submitted this design to a small competition held by Ducky (maker of good mechanical keyboards) and got on a shared fourth place. -
Not at all the same as MX Greens...
Marketing on Slashdot again, huh... *sigh*
The Cherry MX Green does not feel like a buckling spring from the Model F or Model M keyboards, really.
While it is a stiff clicky switch, it is far less tactile, and the tactile point is different.
The Buckling Spring on a IBM Model M or Model F has a slow progression in resistance followed by a sharp drop at the actuation point at around 2/3 - 3/4 way down the stroke.
The Cherry MX Blue and Green have a small bump at the actuation point, which is higher up, at about 1/2-way down the stroke.As other posters have already written, the MX Green is just like a MX Blue with a stiffer spring. It was made to be used for the Space Bar on a keyboard that is otherwise populated with MX Blue.
Compared to the Blue, with the Green's stiffer spring you tend to press harder on it and that diminishes the feel of the tactile bump somewhat.
The Green has always been used as the space bar switch on Cherry's own keyboards with Blue switches. The only new thing is that it is used on a whole keyboard.
Having a stiffer switch on the space bar is common. Ordinary rubber dome keyboards often come with coiled springs under the space bar to make it stiffer.If you want a Buckling Spring keyboard, you could buy a new Model M from Unicomp. They are built using the same machines and tooling that the old IBM keyboards were. They even cost less than many gaming keyboards with Cherry MX switches.
BTW. This post was typed on a Dolch keyboard (Cherry G80-1813HFX) with Cherry MX Blue switches, except for the Green switch on the space bar.
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Not at all the same as MX Greens...
Marketing on Slashdot again, huh... *sigh*
The Cherry MX Green does not feel like a buckling spring from the Model F or Model M keyboards, really.
While it is a stiff clicky switch, it is far less tactile, and the tactile point is different.
The Buckling Spring on a IBM Model M or Model F has a slow progression in resistance followed by a sharp drop at the actuation point at around 2/3 - 3/4 way down the stroke.
The Cherry MX Blue and Green have a small bump at the actuation point, which is higher up, at about 1/2-way down the stroke.As other posters have already written, the MX Green is just like a MX Blue with a stiffer spring. It was made to be used for the Space Bar on a keyboard that is otherwise populated with MX Blue.
Compared to the Blue, with the Green's stiffer spring you tend to press harder on it and that diminishes the feel of the tactile bump somewhat.
The Green has always been used as the space bar switch on Cherry's own keyboards with Blue switches. The only new thing is that it is used on a whole keyboard.
Having a stiffer switch on the space bar is common. Ordinary rubber dome keyboards often come with coiled springs under the space bar to make it stiffer.If you want a Buckling Spring keyboard, you could buy a new Model M from Unicomp. They are built using the same machines and tooling that the old IBM keyboards were. They even cost less than many gaming keyboards with Cherry MX switches.
BTW. This post was typed on a Dolch keyboard (Cherry G80-1813HFX) with Cherry MX Blue switches, except for the Green switch on the space bar.
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Not at all the same as MX Greens...
Marketing on Slashdot again, huh... *sigh*
The Cherry MX Green does not feel like a buckling spring from the Model F or Model M keyboards, really.
While it is a stiff clicky switch, it is far less tactile, and the tactile point is different.
The Buckling Spring on a IBM Model M or Model F has a slow progression in resistance followed by a sharp drop at the actuation point at around 2/3 - 3/4 way down the stroke.
The Cherry MX Blue and Green have a small bump at the actuation point, which is higher up, at about 1/2-way down the stroke.As other posters have already written, the MX Green is just like a MX Blue with a stiffer spring. It was made to be used for the Space Bar on a keyboard that is otherwise populated with MX Blue.
Compared to the Blue, with the Green's stiffer spring you tend to press harder on it and that diminishes the feel of the tactile bump somewhat.
The Green has always been used as the space bar switch on Cherry's own keyboards with Blue switches. The only new thing is that it is used on a whole keyboard.
Having a stiffer switch on the space bar is common. Ordinary rubber dome keyboards often come with coiled springs under the space bar to make it stiffer.If you want a Buckling Spring keyboard, you could buy a new Model M from Unicomp. They are built using the same machines and tooling that the old IBM keyboards were. They even cost less than many gaming keyboards with Cherry MX switches.
BTW. This post was typed on a Dolch keyboard (Cherry G80-1813HFX) with Cherry MX Blue switches, except for the Green switch on the space bar.
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Realforce with variable force
Some Realforce keyboards have variable weight on some keys, for instance 35g for the keys under the pinkies and 45g on the rest.
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Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard.
None of the keyboard markings have worn off.
Many good keyboards have double-shot molded keys. The keyboard marking is not just on the top of the key, it goes all the way through. You can wear the key down a full millimeter and still have a good marking.
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Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M!
No, the PS/2 came with the IBM Model M2 , which was made even cheaper.
All plastic construction. Smaller, cheaper key caps. The stabilizer bars were not even made of metal. No curve to the keyboard. More noisy than the bigger Model M even though it had the same springs and hammers.A weird side-note, is that the most expensive vintage keyboard on the collector's market: the "ergonomic" IBM Adjustable Keyboard (Model M15) is closer in construction to the M2 than to the old Model M.
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Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M!
No, the PS/2 came with the IBM Model M2 , which was made even cheaper.
All plastic construction. Smaller, cheaper key caps. The stabilizer bars were not even made of metal. No curve to the keyboard. More noisy than the bigger Model M even though it had the same springs and hammers.A weird side-note, is that the most expensive vintage keyboard on the collector's market: the "ergonomic" IBM Adjustable Keyboard (Model M15) is closer in construction to the M2 than to the old Model M.
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Re:You insensitive clod!
Model M?? Try the 5150 Keyboard. And stay off my lawn, kid!
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Re:I bought one
The Cherry MX Blue switches in the Rosewill keyboards is much lighter than the buckling spring in the IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp keyboards, while still providing tactile feedback and an audible click. They are much easier on the fingers than the Model M or most cheap rubber dome keyboards.
By the way, there are ways to dampen a buckling spring keyboard's sound. You can dampen the "clack" when bottoming out by installing O-rings around the shafts. You can also remove the ringing almost completely by installing a string of dental floss inside each spring.
However, you can not remove the clicking sound without removing the tactile feel.
The clicking sound of a buckling spring is actually produced by the spring itself as it reaches "catastrophic buckling" state, not by any mechanical contact. -
Bring back the Model M
If you're following trends, you might have noticed mechanical keyboards are on a come-back. Originally pressed out of the market by far cheaper, silent but inferior rubber dome keyboards, they are now coming back as quality input devices, with as main driver gamers. So we see the kinds of Razor, Das Keyboard and Filco selling ever larger numbers. Various mechanical keyboard forums are now in existence and growing, such as deskthority.net
There is logic in this: while for leisure and consumption the ordinary keyboard might go out of fashion in favor of touchscreen, if you type for profession or want the best gear for gaming, you end up with mechanical.