The Evolution of the Computer Keyboard

qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:02 · Score: 0

And the funniest thing is that the current QWERTY key arrangement is here due to jamming issues with typewriters. It was designed to slow down the typing speed of old stenographers to resolve the jamming issue of old typewriters when they were typed on too fast.

Re:qwerty by telchine · 2012-11-02 05:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

And the funniest thing is that the current QWERTY key arrangement is here due to jamming issues with typewriters. It was designed to slow down the typing speed of old stenographers to resolve the jamming issue of old typewriters when they were typed on too fast.
Actually, that's just an urban legend... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
Re:qwerty by Vicarius · 2012-11-02 05:14 · Score: 1

Have you read the article you linked? It pretty much says the same thing:

The QWERTY keyboard, so called for the top row of letters on its left-hand side, was devised to make things easy for the typewriter, not the typist.
and

To solve the jamming problem, Sholes and company, who had originally arranged their keyboard in alphabetical order, decided to put the most commonly used letters (or what they thought were the most commonly used letters) as far apart as possible in the machine's innards.
and

Of course, a superior system exists. It's called the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, or DSK, after inventor August Dvorak, who developed it while a professor at the University of Washington in Seattle.
Re:qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Note: The legend part applies to the slowing down of typing speed.
this is correct >> And the funniest thing is that the current QWERTY key arrangement is here due to jamming issues with typewriters.
this is not >> It was designed to slow down the typing speed of old stenographers to resolve the jamming issue of old typewriters when they were typed on too fast.
The previous-to-qwerty arrangement did jam when typing fast. The qwerty-arrangement alleviated this problem and enabled typing faster speed than was previously possible.
Re:qwerty by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2012-11-02 05:15 · Score: 1, Redundant

You realize that the article you linked to agrees with the general story if not the specifics around stenographers:

To solve the jamming problem, Sholes and company, who had originally arranged their keyboard in alphabetical order, decided to put the most commonly used letters (or what they thought were the most commonly used letters) as far apart as possible in the machine's innards.

The design was then never changed, even though subsequent typewriter designs made it unnecessary.
Re:qwerty by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 05:17 · Score: 5, Informative

Have you read it?
It was designed to keep the arms the made the most commonly used letters apart, not to slow anyone down.
Re:qwerty by Relayman · 2012-11-02 05:18 · Score: 2

Actually, your reference says exactly what the OP said: The design put the most common keys away from the middle to reduce jamming. It also goes to say that Dvorak's layout really isn't much more efficient.

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Re:qwerty by wbr1 · 2012-11-02 05:20 · Score: 1

And the funniest thing is that the current QWERTY key arrangement is here due to jamming issues with typewriters. It was designed to slow down the typing speed of old stenographers to resolve the jamming issue of old typewriters when they were typed on too fast.
Actually, that's just an urban legend... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
Your article actually supports the "legend". Perhaps you are just looking for clicks or back links. Or you do not read.

--
Silence is a state of mime.
Re:qwerty by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-11-02 05:23 · Score: 5, Informative

You obviously did not read the whole article, because after he says all that he adds the following after someone sent him an article challenging what you quoted:

Baloney, say the authors of the article you enclose, S.J. Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis. They point out that (1) the research demonstrating the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard is sparse and methodologically suspect; (2) a sizable body of work suggests that in fact the Dvorak offers little practical advantage over the QWERTY; (3) at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands; and (4) the QWERTY keyboard did not become a standard overnight but beat out several competing keyboards over a period of years. Thus it may be fairly said to represent the considered choice of the marketplace. It saddens me to know I helped to perpetuate the myth of Dvorak superiority, but I will sleep better at night knowing I have rectified matters at last.

--
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Re:qwerty by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-11-02 05:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

Only if you stop reading before the author tells you that he was corrected by someone who had better information. The article ends like this:

Baloney, say the authors of the article you enclose, S.J. Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis. They point out that (1) the research demonstrating the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard is sparse and methodologically suspect; (2) a sizable body of work suggests that in fact the Dvorak offers little practical advantage over the QWERTY; (3) at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands; and (4) the QWERTY keyboard did not become a standard overnight but beat out several competing keyboards over a period of years. Thus it may be fairly said to represent the considered choice of the marketplace. It saddens me to know I helped to perpetuate the myth of Dvorak superiority, but I will sleep better at night knowing I have rectified matters at last.

--
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Re:qwerty by Baloroth · 2012-11-02 05:32 · Score: 1

It says the first sentence of what the OP says, but not the second, which is false: the jamming issue was solved by re-arranging the keys, not by slowing down typists, in fact the arrangement allowed faster typing. So it doesn't say exactly what the OP said.

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Re:qwerty by del_diablo · 2012-11-02 05:39 · Score: 1

I still want to see sources for the second one.
Re:qwerty by DragonWriter · 2012-11-02 05:45 · Score: 1

Actually, your reference says exactly what the OP said: The design put the most common keys away from the middle to reduce jamming.

Except that that's not what the OP said, what OP said was that the design put the common keys away from the middle to reduce jamming by slowing down typists. What the reference says is that QWERTY was designed to move keys commonly used keys farther away from each other to reduce jamming by reducing the probability that a typist at any given speed would hit nearby keys in close enough suggestion for their arms to jam.
ObCarAnalogy: The OP's claim is wrong in the same way that it would be wrong to claim that some race cars include negative lift wings to slow down drivers because driving too fast causes cars to lose traction; it correctly identifies the problem that modification addresses, but incorrectly casts the modification as interfering with the operator's goal to solve the problem rather than addressing the effect which causes pursuit of the operator's goal to trigger the problem.
Re:qwerty by Cinder6 · 2012-11-02 05:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

That isn't to say that Dvorak doesn't force you to alternate hands--it just does in the opposite direction. QWERTY is ~53% left-oriented, while Dvorak is ~54% right-oriented.
For myself, I type faster and more accurately on Dvorak (111 wpm vs 90 wpm), but that's probably due to spending most of my time in that layout. The main benefit I notice is less tangible, and that is that I suffer less fatigue if I decide to write for hours on end without a break.

--
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:qwerty by TheCarp · 2012-11-02 05:53 · Score: 1

I always assumed something like this was the case, but, never really looked into it.
The whole "dvorak superiority" thing always seemed to be based on little to nothing. I mean... I learned the same ABC song as most everyone else.... but the order of letters hardly matters really, its just a memorization tool, and, of course, it helps make sure the list is correct when every student writes the letters in the same order.
Sure letters are used with different frequencies, so in a given language different letters have different frequencies of use... so it makes sense that some orderings for typing may be better than others for that reason.... but... letter frequencies and position within the alphabet are totally unrelated (or else we would start with E)
I mean yes, it may help in slightly decreasing the amount of time it takes to learn to touch type, but, thats a pretty minor benefit. How much of a difference would learning to tie your shoes with a few minutes less effort be, over the course of your life? You do a lot more typing than learning to type and in the end...any layout is just something you will memorize.
I would be shocked if any benefit from the letter order thats not based on (or happens to satisfy) placing frequently used letters in places advantageous to their quick use (as was mentioned... putting frequently used keys farther apapart may increase speed due to encouraging hand alternation)

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:qwerty by del_diablo · 2012-11-02 05:54 · Score: 2

Here is linked source. Search for citation 16 and read onwards. The autor didn't read it properly. The article states: several things:
-QWERTY is a fast keyboard layout, and it has killed quite a few layouts because it is fast
-Dvorak is most likely a tad faster,
-The article that is the "counterpoint" of the article uses "If a typist has learned QWERTY, the cost of changing is likely too high compared to a "10% gain"*1
-The studies counterpoint is at citation 31, and seems a bit flawed, just as the NAVYs test
*1: Not actual numbers, a quote or anything, its a general expression
Re:qwerty by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-11-02 05:56 · Score: 1

Perhaps if you went to the original post and followed the link and then followed the link that the author of that article provided maybe you could discover these things.

--
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Re:qwerty by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-11-02 06:01 · Score: 1

That was why I accepted what was said about qwerty vs Dvorak keyboards. Well, that and the fact that QWERTY is universal for every language that uses the Roman alphabet, while the Dvorak keyboard must be altered for each language (as frequency of use of each letter varies from language to language).

--
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Re:qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:16 · Score: 1

lol... QWERTY is not universal for the roman alphabet. Most countries have their own variations. The French, for example, use AZERTY.
Re:qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:28 · Score: 0

I don't see how your link disproves it. The BS being called is that Dvorak is superior; I'm not advocating it as I never used it.
The reason for Qwerty sticking around is that it is generally OK for typing speed, not the fastest, but by the time a "better" arrangement of keys was introduced, the typing centers were so heavily invested in equipment and training of Qwerty typewriters there was little incentive to re-tool.
Re:qwerty by TheCarp · 2012-11-02 06:30 · Score: 1

Having used a PC at a cybercaffee in France, I can attest to the truth of this statement.
They do not use the qwerty keyboard that I know and love.

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:qwerty by PRMan · 2012-11-02 07:39 · Score: 1

Then it was designed poorly, because I use wer and rty all the time...
And those were always the hammers that got jammed when I used a typewriter.

--
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:qwerty by PRMan · 2012-11-02 07:46 · Score: 1

Actually, as with most things, FRANCE has their own version. Almost every other country uses QWERTY, except German speaking nations because Z is much more popular in German than Y.

--
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 09:13 · Score: 0

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#section_4
I'll never understand the jokes about France like that. The Lithuanians use a different keyboard too -- got any stereotypes about them?
Re:qwerty by pseudofrog · 2012-11-02 12:01 · Score: 1

Here's a pretty good rebuttal to that farce of an article.

In short, the two authors are uber-libertarian economists who wanted to prove that lock-in is not real. And they used all of the dubious arguments one would need to support such a notion. Seriously.
Re:qwerty by Alorelith · 2012-11-02 16:08 · Score: 1

I always assumed something like this was the case, but, never really looked into it.
The whole "dvorak superiority" thing always seemed to be based on little to nothing. I mean... I learned the same ABC song as most everyone else.... but the order of letters hardly matters really, its just a memorization tool, and, of course, it helps make sure the list is correct when every student writes the letters in the same order.
Sure letters are used with different frequencies, so in a given language different letters have different frequencies of use... so it makes sense that some orderings for typing may be better than others for that reason.... but... letter frequencies and position within the alphabet are totally unrelated (or else we would start with E)
I mean yes, it may help in slightly decreasing the amount of time it takes to learn to touch type, but, thats a pretty minor benefit. How much of a difference would learning to tie your shoes with a few minutes less effort be, over the course of your life? You do a lot more typing than learning to type and in the end...any layout is just something you will memorize.
I would be shocked if any benefit from the letter order thats not based on (or happens to satisfy) placing frequently used letters in places advantageous to their quick use (as was mentioned... putting frequently used keys farther apapart may increase speed due to encouraging hand alternation)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the pages of Michael Capewell, Peter Klausler, etc.. These guys (and others) have for years been trying to find ultimate keyboard layouts, and all of them say that Dvorak really isn't all it's claimed to be.
The page is here: http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/layout_capewell.htm
Re:qwerty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 21:42 · Score: 0

The main benefit I notice is less tangible, and that is that I suffer less fatigue if I decide to write for hours on end without a break.
You can measure the distance that your fingers travel and compare the differences between a QWERTY and a Dvorak layout. The fact is, your fingers will travel less when typing English in Dvorak as compared to QWERTY.

Down with QWERTY! by mister_playboy · 2012-11-02 05:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Free your hands from the illogical tyranny of Remington's terrible legacy!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard

--
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will

Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:07 · Score: 0

I don't know, it looks pretty effing weird. TypeMatrix 2030 USB - DV (US Dvorak English) keyboard
Re:Down with QWERTY! by 0100010001010011 · 2012-11-02 05:12 · Score: 1, Interesting

Switched 11 years ago and haven't regretted it once.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:15 · Score: 2, Funny

I understand where QWERTY came from. So how can you call that a DVORAK keyboard? It looks like a "PYFG keyboard to me.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:16 · Score: 0

See also "Programmer Dvorak Keyboard Layout": http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/
Re:Down with QWERTY! by zill · 2012-11-02 05:42 · Score: 1

It came from the keyboard designer's name: August Dvorak.

It's really too bad that Qwerty is lot more catchier than Dvorak. Mr. Qwerty probably suffered a lot of bullying as a child but thanks to his catchy name his design won out in the end and thus his legacy will remain with us for millennia (until we get cybernetic man-machine interfaces).
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:59 · Score: 0

well to me ',.pyf is a little hard to pronounce.
I switched a year a go and never looked back. Most of the common words you will ever type can be typed on the home row, or with 1 - 2 reaches from the home row. I went from 90 wpm on qwerty to 120 wpm on Dvorak in a month. Dvorak also has a small handful of words that are only typed entirely with on hand. So for me at least there was a huge speed increase in a short time. individual results may vary.
Where as qwerty, well just think about that the next time you type how many words you type that are just left hand and right hand, and how many reaches you have to make to type the word 'the'.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by dshk · 2012-11-02 08:20 · Score: 1

I like the idea that the numbers are accessible via the SHIFT key, and in place of them there are frequently used symbols.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by SolitaryMan · 2012-11-02 08:49 · Score: 1

What I find most uncomfortable with qwerty is how all the punctuation and brackets, which being a programmer I have to use very often, are supposed to be hit by right pinky. Haven't tried it, but don't see how dvorak is any better. Especially, having {} [] way over at the top. That would piss me off.

--
May Peace Prevail On Earth
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 14:34 · Score: 0

Agreed. Dvorak is a tremendous improvement for anyone using their keyboard to type English. I've been using it for 9 years now.
I also used to have a http://typematrix.com/ board which offers another excellent ergonomic improvement by lining up the keys.
I find it amazing that the design problems of the traditional typewriter have survived to the extend that modern tablets and smartphones often present their users with an advanced touch-sensitive plane equipped with a beautiful rendering of the wonky qwerty abomination for text entry. It it not so unlike seeing most people entering numbers by drawing circular arcs, mimicking the design of old telephones.
It is the most potent reminder of how resistant humans are to change.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 21:28 · Score: 0

I'd suggest using the Colemak or Workman layouts instead. Both are more modern alternatives to Dvorak, perform about as well and sometimes better according to finger travel distance and other metrics, and most importantly, were build with preserving shortcuts like Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V in mind. Personally, I'm currently switching to Workman at work using PKL and Workman-PKL in Windows.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-03 04:38 · Score: 0

Back when I was doing desktop support and going to a lot of different computers I ran across the DVORAK and tried it. I was up to 30 WPM in less than an hour (I'm normally 50). Problem was every keyboard I went to was QWERTY. Later on I found the MS Natural keyboard. That was the one for me. I've been using them for years now and find the QWERTY vs DVORAK less of an issue than split vs straight keyboard.
I still think DVORAK keyboards are a testimony to well done technology and proper analysis of a problem but also a testimony to the power of an installed base. Even Remington tried to change his layout 16 years later to an alphabetical one because the mechanical reasons for slowing down the typist had been overcome. Nope, still having QWERTY a century later.
Re:Down with QWERTY! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-04 01:51 · Score: 0

Another interesting layout that, unlike Dvorak, is more tailored towards programmers is the Neo layout:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Neo
http://www.neo-layout.org/
This layout seems to be unique among the alternative layouts in that it actually makes use of Modifier Key 3 (programmer keys) and upward.

Space cadet keyboard by walshy007 · 2012-11-02 05:03 · Score: 1

To this day I still want a space cadet keyboard.. so hard to find, and so many meta keys.

Re:Space cadet keyboard by menno_h · 2012-11-02 05:21 · Score: 1

To this day I still want a space cadet keyboard.. so hard to find, and so many meta keys.
A real nerd hacks his own. This one is very mac-oriented, but it shouldn't be too hard to build a new keymap for your Linux box. Windows might be a bit harder.

--
AccountKiller
Re:Space cadet keyboard by Hatta · 2012-11-02 05:30 · Score: 1

Sure, but where are you going to find beige and blue keycaps?

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Re:Space cadet keyboard by menno_h · 2012-11-02 05:53 · Score: 1

Sure, but where are you going to find beige and blue keycaps?
You'll probably have to relabel your keys anyway; might as well paint them.

--
AccountKiller
Re:Space cadet keyboard by morgauxo · 2012-11-02 06:00 · Score: 1

It shouldn't be hard at all considering that there is an Arduino library for emulating a keyboard.

Microsoft Natural Keyboard by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:05 · Score: 1

This was has been my favorite keyboard of all time. It's simply brilliant. Its only that recently it has been acting up. It's so sad because its the best keyboard in the universe.

Re:Microsoft Natural Keyboard by Slugster · 2012-11-02 07:06 · Score: 1

This was has been my favorite keyboard of all time. ...
I would agree; it is currently my favorite also. The last time I found some new ones on closeout (a few years back) I bought five of them. I am on the last one, and since then I have come to have another slightly-used one also. Beyond that, lies only suffering and despair....

I love the ergo-aspects, and would be disappointed to have to go without them. There hasn't been any other comparable-price keyboard built the same. The subsequent Microsoft Natural models have less-ergo-shape and more useless/special keys. I may try the $$$ Kinesys full-bizarro model next.

By the by, somewhere online there is an article from Reason magazine that explores the early history of the Dvorak keyboard layout. In short,,,,, it's bullshit.
The main studies that show it is "superior" were the ones conducted by Dvorak himself, when he was trying to sell the patent to the US Navy.
They were not impressed, and no separate studies ever done have made the claims that Dvorak did with his obviously-rigged testing methods.
Re:Microsoft Natural Keyboard by dshk · 2012-11-02 08:45 · Score: 1

I also used a keyboard with a layout similar to Microsoft Natural keyboard for several years. I do not know which Kinesis you referred to, but now I am using the Kinesis Advantage, and it was a pleasant surprise. The Kinesis was in a drawer for two years, because I was afraid that it took months to learn it. Quite the opposite, I was never able to learn touch typing with my old keyboards, but after I brought the Kinesis out I touch typed English letters within 10 minutes. It took me about 2 months to get proficient in touch typing, but I think I reached my original performance within a few days.

Keyboards are rubbish... by telchine · 2012-11-02 05:05 · Score: 5, Funny

...eye prefer two ewes speech recognition in sted

Re:Keyboards are rubbish... by Abstrackt · 2012-11-02 05:28 · Score: 2

Dear Aunt, Let’s Set So Double The Killer Delete Select All .

--
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
Re:Keyboards are rubbish... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:47 · Score: 0

Well, at least the Subject is correct.
Re:Keyboards are rubbish... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:25 · Score: 0

Agree. But it is hard to wreck a nice beach.
Re:Keyboards are rubbish... by Tablizer · 2012-11-02 08:25 · Score: 1

Keep your romantic fantasies to yourself, please.

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:Keyboards are rubbish... by darenw · 2012-11-02 13:23 · Score: 1

don't you mean "wreck ignition"?

Missing links by Hatta · 2012-11-02 05:06 · Score: 1

No mention of any home computer keyboard. No mention of the PCjr and its infamous chicklet keyboard. No mention of the classic Apple Extended Keyboard. It's as if keyboard history went directly from the Model M to Dell Quietkeys with nothing in between.

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Re:Missing links by gman003 · 2012-11-02 05:11 · Score: 4, Funny

It's ComputerWorld, did you really expect a *good* article?
Re:Missing links by Capt.DrumkenBum · 2012-11-02 05:22 · Score: 2

But there have been no keyboards since the Model M.

Typed with joy on my Model M keyboard.

--
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
Re:Missing links by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 05:37 · Score: 1

How is the Model M not a home computer keyboard?
They are still the best, since they don't die their period has not passed.
This one I am typing on is likely older than many slashdot posters.
Re:Missing links by CohibaVancouver · 2012-11-02 05:47 · Score: 1

No mention of the PCjr and its infamous chicklet keyboard
...and no mention of the poor bastards who had to 'type' on a Commodore PET keyboard:

http://www.geekyard.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Commodore-PET-2001-1977-.jpg
Re:Missing links by Cinder6 · 2012-11-02 05:51 · Score: 1

I had a Model M back in the day. It was nice, but it's gone. Right now I'm tying on a das Keyboard. I like it a lot, though I'll be honest--I type faster on Apple's laptop keyboards. Their short travel distance is more advantageous for me than a mechanical switch, it seems, even if the das is more satisfying to type on.

--
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:Missing links by i.r.id10t · 2012-11-02 05:51 · Score: 2

Some of us are still stuck on a Model M.
Connected via a DIN-9 to PS2 to USB series of adapters.... and I have 2 spares in my garage should my original ever die.

--
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Re:Missing links by dubbreak · 2012-11-02 06:29 · Score: 1

..though I'll be honest--I type faster on Apple's laptop keyboards...
Really? I have both a mech keyboard (same keyswitches as Das) and a macbook and I'm much faster on the mech keyboard. Travel length isn't that much if you are just hitting the keys until they register (i.e. click) rather than bottoming them out (which is kind of the point of a mechanical).

--
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Re:Missing links by Cinder6 · 2012-11-02 07:20 · Score: 1

Yeah. I have a tendency to bottom-out when typing. It's a pretty dramatic difference--almost 25%.

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:Missing links by mspohr · 2012-11-02 07:52 · Score: 1

The chiclet keyboard is still alive and well on MacBooks!

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I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Re:Missing links by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 08:02 · Score: 0

Some of us are still stuck on a Model M.
Connected via a DIN-9 to PS2 to USB series of adapters.... and I have 2 spares in my garage should my original ever die.
The only things that're going to kill the Model M is a Meteorite, Volcano, or Nuclear war, all of which will get the ones in your garage. But I too, also have several more spares than the ones I'm using. Just in case.
Re:Missing links by marcello_dl · 2012-11-02 08:08 · Score: 1

I think that the sinclair zx line was even worse than the PET.

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Re:Missing links by Miamicanes · 2012-11-02 12:06 · Score: 1

I can't wait until somebody makes an amd64-architecture tablet with i7 performance. Why? Because THEN, it'll finally be possible to hack it into a thick-but-lightly-luggable laptop with a Model M keyboard (retrofitted with LiPo battery & bluetooth) hacked into an awesome case, and I won't be crippled into typing 50wpm the way I am with normal laptop keyboards (ok, maybe 65wpm on a Thinkpad w/classic keyboard), vs ~120 wpm with a Model M.
There might not be many of us, but mfrs. will have to pry our Model M keyboards from our cold, dead hands.They're like 1970s phone handsets -- they represent decades of industrial engineering & design to make a product that's *ideal*, as opposed to new keyboards whose only meaningful design feature is "lower manufacturing costs than last year's model"
Re:Missing links by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 13:33 · Score: 0

It's Slashdot reporting a ComputerWorld article, did you really expect *good* comments?

Re:Down with DVORAK! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:07 · Score: 1

Free your hands from the logical tyranny of Dvorak's horrible legacy!

What we really need is randomly newmerically labeled virtual keyboards that are used in the future!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCARS [wikipedia.org]

You insensitive clod! by PPH · 2012-11-02 05:08 · Score: 3, Funny

In the universe??? Some of us have tentacles instead of fingers! Your puny keyboard is useless for us!

Besides, the damned thing doesn't even have a Linux key.

--
Have gnu, will travel.

There have been some experiments by sandytaru · 2012-11-02 05:18 · Score: 1

The weird split ergo keyboard that many folks either loved or hated comes to mind. I'm happy with my hybrid, a cheap Microsoft "comfort curve" that gives some of the alignment effect of the ergo-board without actually separating the keys.

I also had a really nifty folding accordion keyboard for my Palm Pilot a decade ago. After folding, it was locked up tight in its permanent hard case, and it was safer than the actual Palm (and about the same size.)

And now Microsoft's new integrated smart cover keyboards are a thing.

Whatever happened to the laser keyboard? I'm surprised it didn't take off.

--
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.

Re:There have been some experiments by arth1 · 2012-11-02 05:28 · Score: 1

I like one Microsoft keyboard - the one where the keypad can be moved from the right side to the left.
That makes it possible to have the keyboard directly in front of you while still not stretching to reach the mouse.
The whole WASD for games was done because of this design flaw with the numeric pad on the right. If it had been on the left, we surely would have used 8456 instead.
I believe there are more gamers and mouse users than those unable to operate a keypad with their left hand, so I think it's time for a switch to left-hand-keypad becoming the default.
Re:There have been some experiments by Nexzus · 2012-11-02 05:31 · Score: 2

You can pry my Microsoft Natural 4K Keyboard from my cold dead, non-carpal hands. I've dragged my current one through 3 jobs now, and I have a spare BNIB.

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Karma: Can only be portioned out by the Cosmos.
Re:There have been some experiments by paj1234 · 2012-11-02 11:16 · Score: 1

I prefer the classic Microsoft Natural Keyboard in grey. How can you stand your oversized N key?? Wow, look at this: USD 208.99 on eBay!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-in-Box-Microsoft-Natural-Keyboard-Elite-PS2-USB-Adapter-Ergonomic-Ergo-White-/330814626090?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4d0616992a
Re:There have been some experiments by sandytaru · 2012-11-03 06:52 · Score: 1

Actually, one of the games I play gives users the option of 8426 for directional controls, with 7 controlling walking speed, 9 and 3 controlling zoom, and the arrow keys controlling pan and tilt on the camera. This worked great since the mouse was totally unnecessary for any movement. Switching to a "compact" keyboard permitted normal WASD movement, but that was primary for laptops without keyboards. I was really disappointed when a newer game from the studio had dropped the optional numerical number movement and switched to pure WASD, because it wasn't as intuitive to me. And it also assumed I was going to use the mouse. I believe you can still get a keyboard with the number pad on the left; the company that makes the ergo Vertical Mouse sells it.

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Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.

As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by ciscoguy01 · 2012-11-02 05:19 · Score: 2

As I sit here typing this on a circa 1984 IBM Model M Clicky Keyboard!
The finest keyboard ever made.
I have had this one for >10 years.
None of the keyboard markings have worn off. Heh. Yes, you can still find them around.

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Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by bigredradio · 2012-11-02 05:29 · Score: 1

I miss my old clicky keyboard. I have been meaning to pick up a modified USB model, but have not gotten around to it. PS2 to USB adapters don't work that well at boot time. We still use them for some of our lab equipment. I agree they are the best keyboards ever made.

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Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by Jawnn · 2012-11-02 05:30 · Score: 1

None of the keyboard markings have worn off. Heh. Yes, you can still find them around.
You're welcome. :) I used to work in an injection molding facility that made key tops, the a's, b's, 1's, 2's, space bars and whatnot. Back in the day, this was a two-part process, the guts of the key (the part that attached to the underlying switch as well as the character itself) were molded in one "shot", then the key itself was molded around that, in a contrasting color, of course. Since the characters were molded into the key, there was nothing to "wear off". The keyboard I'm using at the moment appears to be made that way, but most I own are just screen printed, including a pricier Microsoft piece. That one has blank home keys now.
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by Cinder6 · 2012-11-02 05:56 · Score: 1

Cool info. My das Keyboard has "laser-etched" keycaps, and I've always wondered how long that will last. I would have bought the blank version, but other people in the family would have freaked out at that. If only they weren't so expensive, I would buy another.

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by jdschulteis · 2012-11-02 06:36 · Score: 1

As I sit here typing this on a circa 1984 IBM Model M Clicky Keyboard!
The finest keyboard ever made. .
What is with you Model M fans? If that's what you like, fine. Personally, I can't decide whether the biggest reason I can't stand them is the tiringly excessive force required to operate the keys or the deafening racket they produce.
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by ciscoguy01 · 2012-11-02 06:43 · Score: 2

You probably made the ones for the IBM typewriters, I remember, "Double shot molded".
You see, our forefathers knew what was necessary, they made things to last.
Now, you buy a keyboard and in 6 months the home row keys are worn off.
30 or 40 years ago you'd buy a washer, dryer or refrigerator and in 25 years it was still working.
Now, you're lucky if it lasts 5 years. They know it too, they have MBAs at the factory working on cheapening the parts to make them fail, so you will buy another.
Whereas years ago, they'd *never* have sold you something that would not last. Our whole society is like that. It's sad.

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Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by Dadoo · 2012-11-02 07:35 · Score: 2

Personally, I can't decide whether the biggest reason I can't stand them is the tiringly excessive force required to operate the keys or the deafening racket they produce.
Agreed. Keyboards should be quiet. Can you imagine an entire office full of Model M keyboards? Ow, my ears!
It would certainly be nice if they built them as solid as Model Ms today, but now they're so inexpensive, I'm not sure it matters that I have to buy a new one every few years, or so.

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Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by demonlapin · 2012-11-02 08:13 · Score: 2

The website is currently down due to Sandy, but go buy the one on this page and use it with your M. I no longer have an M - it died due to coffee spill - but that adapter worked perfectly. I keep it around just in case I ever pass by another M and can't resist myself.
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by Relayman · 2012-11-02 09:35 · Score: 1

None of the keyboard markings have worn off.
Many good keyboards have double-shot molded keys. The keyboard marking is not just on the top of the key, it goes all the way through. You can wear the key down a full millimeter and still have a good marking.

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If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-03 01:42 · Score: 0

They should not be quiet, the sound is necessary feature when you are typing from a piece og paper, the click is so you know that the key has been pressed far enough to be registred by the machine. Yes, who types from a paper source now...
Re:As I sit here typing on a 28 year old keyboard. by davewoods · 2012-11-05 07:11 · Score: 1

Yeah, that makes sense... But only if you have no sense of touch, or any sense of where your fingers are in relation to your hand. After using a keyboard for about 10 seconds, I know exactly how much pressure is required to press the keys. I do not need sound to confirm when a key is pressed, if I did, my typing speed would probably be about 10 WPM, because I would have to press a single key at a time, and wait for my brain to register that I correctly heard the sound.

If you have to have any clue other than touch that a key has been pressed, then surely you are not suited to be a typist of any sort? Barring, of course, if you have no sense of touch.

Teletype Model 33 by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-11-02 05:19 · Score: 2

I still have fond memories of this here gadget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33

It made a hell of a racket, but the keyboard had this light, crisp touch . . .

And hell, it gave you a hard copy history of what you had done, and paper tape, on the side. Good for making confetti for High School Pep Rallies.

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Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!

Re:Teletype Model 33 by rrohbeck · 2012-11-02 08:10 · Score: 1

Oh no. I sat in front of them for hours. But then the college got some of those newfangled "glass TTYs", yay!

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thegodmovie.com - watch it
Re:Teletype Model 33 by ciscoguy01 · 2012-11-02 15:43 · Score: 1

Hah. We had some connected to a PDP-10.
And I had a room full of 029 keypunch machines for the old CDC6400.
Brings back memories.

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Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by scorp1us · 2012-11-02 05:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

The biggest reason I have not returned to the iPhone is the lack of a swipe style keyboard. After adapting to it, I refuse to go back to pecking words out with my thumbs, so no iPhones until I can get swype. It has several advantages:
- Word entry without looking
- one-handed text entry (single thumb swipes out a word in the same time two could tap it, while being held in the same hand.)

Swype's implementation isn't flawless though. They haven't figured out it is about word shape. The biggest problem is the limited character set. On a phone in landscape, or anything bigger than a phone you should have a keyboard on one side and an alternate (numberic pad) on the other. Since we don't need to hit specific keys anymore, we can reduce the overall area dedicated to displaying the keyboard and just show one for reference (aiming) and determine the word by the shape traced out. Have a button for enlarging it for the odd word that isn't in the dictionary and you're done.

Once swype (or any other keyboard (swift key?) realizes that, we'll have the best touch keyboard we can have without a fill-size button board.

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Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.

Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:34 · Score: 0

I have Shapewriter, it doesn't seem to be on the app store anymore, but Path Input looks similar.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:44 · Score: 1

You clearly haven't tried the MacBook Wheel.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by demonlapin · 2012-11-02 08:19 · Score: 1

Totally agree. Typing with one thumb at a speed close to two-hand typing is brilliant. However, they really need to figure out a way to add some kind of gesture to prevent the really common misreads - out/put/pot/pit, if/it/of, so forth - the "bounce from letter to letter to specify" feature doesn't work that well. At least we no longer get "Errol" when trying to type "will" or "well".

If they could license the prediction code from Swiftkey, the combination would be almost unbeatable.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by thesandtiger · 2012-11-02 08:22 · Score: 1

I had swype for a year on my evo but either I never got accustomed to it or the software never picked up how I write or I do some weird kind of word shape thing because it would give me - at best - 50% error rates for each word.

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Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by scorp1us · 2012-11-02 08:25 · Score: 1

That's why you enable the suggestion bar. 9/10 times it'll be on there, if not, at least one my phone, I can slide it to the right for more choices.

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Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by stephanruby · 2012-11-02 09:41 · Score: 1

"As anyone who's typed on a virtual keyboard — or yelled at a voice-control app like Siri"
It's funny he should say that, because I do type much faster on my phone than on a full-sized PC keyboard.
I just happen to be a foreigner living in the US. And for me at least, typing both in my native language and typing in English, and being able to mix and match languages at will within the same message (without switching keyboard, especially when I'm writing to family members) is absolutely critical to me. And when I need to write such an email, even if I'm already sitting at my computer in front of a message I just received, I'll still pull out my phone to type the reply on.
And I did try Swype (which was fine), but I ended up settling on SwiftKey (formerly Swift X keyboard). SwiftKey allows you to mix and match up to 3 different languages at the same time: spelling, accents, word combinations, grammars, etc. SwiftKey also learned from my existing emails, my existing facebook posts, my existing Twitter posts, my existing sms messages, etc. (assuming you give it explicit permission to use that data on your behalf, so if you train it that way, it's usable from the very first day you use it).
So it doesn't just know the spellings I like to use, but it usually knows the phrases I'm going to use before I'm even going to use them. And it does so happen that I use many of the same sentence patterns over and over again. In other words, you could describe SwiftKey as a super smart AutoCompleter/TextExpander, but even that wouldn't do the application justice. For me SwiftKeys' usability just works, that's what distinguishes it from a standard AutoComplete/Expander. Not only SwiftKey knows everything I type, most of which, it knows before I even type it myself, but its user interface doesn't interrupt my flow of type, it's an integral part of my flow, and it's the reason I can type so much faster with it.
There is one caveat thought, on my old Nexus S, Ice Cream Sandwich, SwiftKey was noticeably slower than on Gingerbread. Now that it's on Jellybeans thought, that's no longer an issue and everything is back to normal. And coming back to the comment about "Siri", for a foreigner with a strong Accent, Google Voice Search doesn't work for me at all (even if I try yelling at it), so I have that feature turned off/disabled, but I would love it if they were able to solve that problem (and I do trust Google to succeed in its voice recognition efforts before I succeed in my own effort of losing my accent).
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 09:51 · Score: 0

My normal phone has a slider keyboard but I got my friend's old Galaxy S to use as media player since it has a bigger screen than my phone and a faster processor. Took me about a day to get used to swype but I love it. There are some words it always misses especially two letter words (it usually suggests a three letter word) but most of the time it's in the suggestion box somewhere. When I flashed a new ROM and lost the original swype it came with I got the beta version and it is even better. The old version would make you delete a word to replace it but now you can just put the cursor in the word and it brings up the suggestion box again if you missed making a mistake. Slide out keyboard is still far superior but on a touch only device swype is the only way to type with any actual speed.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by demonlapin · 2012-11-02 11:49 · Score: 1

I'm using it, it's just very susceptible to a small mistake in initial finger placement.

Of course, I have large hands (the last joint of my thumb will completely cover V-G-Y and everything to the right of them on a GS3, not exactly a small phone) so that's part of the problem.
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 19:50 · Score: 0

The only thing I don't like about Swype is the distribution of the letters. It's standard "Qwerty", but is that optimal? How is having the letters in that order meaningful since you have to look at them anyone to input them. I think input errors could be reduced significantly. Also, the letters are all the same size. Maybe frequent letters should be bigger so they register more often?
Re:Swype has ... "Swyped" me away! by davewoods · 2012-11-05 07:16 · Score: 1

Disagree. If they moved the letters around, I would have to re-learn where they were located. As it is right now, someone can switch from a standard thumb-type keyboard to Swype in a day, and have absolutely no adjustment time (Other than using a swiping gesture, instead of a thumb-type gesture).

Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by sirwired · 2012-11-02 05:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

The true evolution of the computer keyboard stopped with the mighty, never-equaled, IBM Model M. Every "innovation" since then has been a poor compromise in comparison.

Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:04 · Score: 0

Amen. I don't want to come off as a shill, so I won't name any brands, but I've got two keyboards (home and work) with mechanical switches similar to the Model M, and I can't stand when I have to use an inferior keyboard. There are a few companies out there producing great quality keyboards; typically they're going to cost $100-$200, but that's money very well spent.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by dubbreak · 2012-11-02 06:27 · Score: 1

Yep. MX Black switches all the way and plenty of different manufacturers making keyboards with them. I went with a gaming company one as it was cheaper than my friend's Das. The biggest benefit to me is less fatigue. I don't have to bottom the keys out for them to register. Of course I find I'm also a bit faster on a mech.

Only downside is my office is beside the bedroom. I have to keep a dome keyboard on hand in case the wife is trying to sleep.

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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by mcgrew · 2012-11-02 06:28 · Score: 1

I disagree. My old Model M had a short, coiled cord. My Logitech keyboard has no cord. I'd say that's quite an improvement, especially since I use the TV for a monitor and sit across the room from the computer.

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Free Martian Whores!
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by dubbreak · 2012-11-02 06:36 · Score: 1

Oops, meant blue not black.

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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by ciscoguy01 · 2012-11-02 06:49 · Score: 3

What's interesting about that is IBM made nearly all the typewriters, and they made those keycaps to last because that was the right thing to do.
They didn't do it because of competition- they had almost none. They owned 90% of the market.
They didn't do it because anyone demanded it.
They did it because it was the product they wanted to make. Designed to last, to perform better than the market even demanded.
Contrast that to how things are designed and made today.
Cheaper, obsolescent, designed to fail sooner rather than later. To make you buy a new one. It's sad really.

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Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by ciscoguy01 · 2012-11-02 06:52 · Score: 1

Ya know, the Model M keyboard cords came any way you wanted them.
I have some with short cords like you describe, and I have some with cords 10' long. They made whatever you needed. It's not a replacement for a wireless keyboard, but they do serve different purposes.
You want clicky, definite keypresses and you don't mind the sound, or you want to be able to sit back on the couch.

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Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by AmiMoJo · 2012-11-02 06:58 · Score: 1

Laptops would still be classed as "luggable" if they had Model M style keyboards. I used to love mechanical clickyness as well, but then I discovered Thinkpad keyboards.
These days a few manufacturers do good ones, including Microsoft's desktop range. I developed arthritis in my hands so perhaps I'm not a typical case, but they really are very comfortable to type on and nice and quiet for use in a shared space.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by jcfandino · 2012-11-02 07:18 · Score: 1

The model before M was the model F that came with the original PC, the XT and the AT. The quality was even better but expensive.
So, in fact the Model M was a compromise to produce a cheaper buckling spring model for the PS/2.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by tlhIngan · 2012-11-02 07:41 · Score: 2

What's interesting about that is IBM made nearly all the typewriters, and they made those keycaps to last because that was the right thing to do.
They didn't do it because of competition- they had almost none. They owned 90% of the market.
They didn't do it because anyone demanded it.
They did it because it was the product they wanted to make. Designed to last, to perform better than the market even demanded.
Contrast that to how things are designed and made today.
Cheaper, obsolescent, designed to fail sooner rather than later. To make you buy a new one. It's sad really.
Yeah, because you paid (today's equivalent) of hundreds of dollars for a typewriter. Which was a significant chunk of change.and often had to be saved up for and budgeted for.
Considering the IBM computer the keyboard came with was over $5000 new in a basic configuratoin (probably close to $10000 these days), they had better be of good quality because buying a computer was a significant expense and probably a good year's worth of saving up for, if not more.
These days, a cheap PC can be had for under $300, maybe a few months of saving if you're of little means, well under a month's pay if you're middle class.
Stuff had to last back then because they cost a LOT of money. A TV could be a year's worth of savings to buy. A computer ditto (imagine you had to save up for a year to two years to buy a PC. Compare it to today when a new bigger faster PC comes out every 6 months or so...). Washer and dryer - if they didn't come with the house, you'd have to save up for a significant period of time.
These days, things are a LOT cheaper. And we don't repair because paying $50/hr to fix a $400 TV doesn't make economic sense. Back then, the repairman may be paid $20-40/hr, but your TV was over $1000 - maybe easily $5000+. ($1000 buys a pretty damn nice HDTV these days. $5000 buys a top of the line model that's 60" or bigger).
Same with computers - few people are paying $5000+ for a basic entry level PC (typical configuration cost $8000-10000 back then, probably close to $15000+ now). A "Good enough" PC these days costs $250, less on sale. A high-end PC may cost $2000.
Oh, and for some stuff like appliances, if you really want the ones that'll last, be prepared to pay. When you can get a washer-dryer bundle for $1000, the top end ones can be had for $5000+ each. They'll last alright, if you're willing ot pony up the extra cash.
End result really is the stuff didn't go down in price, it's that the cost of cutting corners enabled more people to buy them. You can still buy $2000 PCs, but the ones people are going for are $500 or less ones.
Stuff lasted back then because when you invested a significant portion of your earnings (months/years) ot buying that product, breaking down is not an option. When you can buy that same stuff today for days/weeks or a couple month's pay, of course they're going to be cheaper.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by Misagon · 2012-11-02 08:00 · Score: 1

No, the PS/2 came with the IBM Model M2 , which was made even cheaper.
All plastic construction. Smaller, cheaper key caps. The stabilizer bars were not even made of metal. No curve to the keyboard. More noisy than the bigger Model M even though it had the same springs and hammers.
A weird side-note, is that the most expensive vintage keyboard on the collector's market: the "ergonomic" IBM Adjustable Keyboard (Model M15) is closer in construction to the M2 than to the old Model M.

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"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by Tablizer · 2012-11-02 08:28 · Score: 2

That's why "Class M" planets are the most habitable and civilized. Harsh planets use Dell keyboards.

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Table-ized A.I.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by SolitaryMan · 2012-11-02 08:52 · Score: 1

In a thread about keyboards a mistake like that totally invalidates your point :)

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May Peace Prevail On Earth
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 09:43 · Score: 0

What's interesting about that is IBM made nearly all the typewriters, and they made those keycaps to last because that was the right thing to do.
They didn't do it because of competition- they had almost none. They owned 90% of the market.
They didn't do it because anyone demanded it.
They did it because it was the product they wanted to make. Designed to last, to perform better than the market even demanded.
Contrast that to how things are designed and made today.
Cheaper, obsolescent, designed to fail sooner rather than later. To make you buy a new one. It's sad really.
You can read people saying the same things about the 'good old days' and modern decrepitude at any time in history.
Maybe IBM did it because, with a captive market, they could charge whatever they wanted. How many people really want to pay extra for better keycaps on a keyboard? I can buy a new keyboard for under $10.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by udoschuermann · 2012-11-04 04:21 · Score: 1

I remember rather fondly typing on a Model M way back, but I could not use one at home these days because of the racket. If there were one with (most of) the tactile feedback, but nice and quiet, I'd be sold. Any suggestions?

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--Udo.
Re:Keyboard evolution stopped with the Model M! by jcfandino · 2012-11-09 08:53 · Score: 1

Search for Cherry MX Brown Switches, that should be what you are looking for.
That or a Realforce keyboard.

crap article is crap by Thud457 · 2012-11-02 05:25 · Score: 1

Indeed. We need to also remember how bad things can be when you try to cut corners - Atari 400, Tandy CoCo, the original Commodore Pet, Timex / Sinclair.

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the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Re:crap article is crap by arth1 · 2012-11-02 05:58 · Score: 1

The submitter of that article obviously had never tried an Oric 1 or Sharp MZ-80K keyboard.
The Oric had really hard "line" keys.
The Sharp had so sharp keys they would cut you.

What we need is a "thought" interface... by mark-t · 2012-11-02 05:27 · Score: 1

where you can simply think what you want to "type" and the computer does it.

Heck, at least it'd spell the end of RSI. Some keyboard designs are better than others in this regard, but none actually prevent it entirely

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File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'

Re:What we need is a "thought" interface... by dkleinsc · 2012-11-02 05:30 · Score: 2

You really really don't want that. I mean, can you think of how many lawsuits might result from ... Hey, look, that blond chick has really hot legs ... interjected thoughts ... I really need to go take a leak right now ... that happen in normal human thought patterns.

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I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
Re:What we need is a "thought" interface... by zill · 2012-11-02 05:46 · Score: 1

Advantage: Porn pop-up click-through rate increased by 800%

Disadvantage: Porn pop-up click-through rate increased by 800%
Re:What we need is a "thought" interface... by ShanghaiBill · 2012-11-02 07:57 · Score: 1

You really really don't want that.
Yes you do. Primitive brain-to-computer interfaces have already been built and they do NOT have the problem you predict. We can train our brains to control which thoughts get translated into keystrokes just like anyone without Tourette syndrome can control which thoughts get translated into speech.
Direct brain-to-computer interfaces will probably be common in less than a decade.

Touchscreen will never replace the keyboard by Spy+Handler · 2012-11-02 05:27 · Score: 2

only thing that will completely replace the keyboard and make it obsolete is direct brain-wave scanning.

They are still made by sirwired · 2012-11-02 05:29 · Score: 4, Informative

A company called Unicomp still makes the Model M. They purchased the original tooling from IBM/Lexmark and make the keyboards in Lexington, Kentucky.

Re:They are still made by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 05:39 · Score: 1

I thought they used the later toolings which were not as good. Do you know what model number M they are producing?
Re:They are still made by sokoban · 2012-11-02 05:44 · Score: 2

I'm not sure, but if you can tell me how to tell the difference, I can find out for you. I use one of their Model M keyboards and they are just up the street from me.

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09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
Re:They are still made by bmo · 2012-11-02 06:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

You do realize that this would make an awesome article for us keyboard nerds.
Especially if you videotaped it.
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BMO
Re:They are still made by rrohbeck · 2012-11-02 08:09 · Score: 2

Yes.
http://pckeyboard.com/

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thegodmovie.com - watch it
Re:They are still made by tempest69 · 2012-11-02 08:28 · Score: 1

I snagged one of the keyboards a couple years back. Nothing else compares for typing. I have an old das keyboard, which is very good, and feels so much better for fps gaming. The F key lost some clickyness. but it's still an awesome choice to type on. The big kicker is that it has the windows key (nifty for moving windows on multiscreens) and a usb interface. It has a freaky long cord which can be handy. The loud clicks can be a bit rough on coworkers.
Re:They are still made by deepsky · 2012-11-02 22:27 · Score: 1

I own both an Unicomp and an IBM model M. They have a slightly different feel, but they are both excellent. I tend to use the Unicomp more, though, because it has a more modern layout (windows keys). Unicomp also sells localized versions, e.g. I have the italian layout.
I am a big fan of Unicomp. I am also unlikely to buy again from them soon, since their 'boards are built for eternity. So I give them good reviews when I can, just to support them.
Re:They are still made by SpooForBrains · 2012-11-05 02:21 · Score: 1

I'm typing this on a Unicomp "On-the-ball" USB model with Windows key, UK layout and trackball in the top right.
I don't use the trackball at all, it's not sensitive enough.
The build quality is not the same as an actual Model M, but still miles better than most other keyboards.
Mine has an irritating bug which means I have to replug it on reboot. I don't know why this is. When I was using it with my laptop this was a real pain in the neck, but I've now got it attached to my desktop at work, and I hardly ever reboot that, so I'd forgotten about this bug until fairly recently.
I'm happy with it. I would recommend it.

--
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"

Re:qwerty designed for... by BoRegardless · 2012-11-02 05:29 · Score: 1

Here all the time I thought Qwerty keyboard layout was designed for computer use of for quick Close, Save Select All, Cut, Copy & Paste commands.

Try Swype! by mark_reh · 2012-11-02 05:32 · Score: 2

I can enter text in Swype faster with one thumb than I can type (of course, I never learned to type and have to look at the keys while I peck away with 3 or four fingers).

Re:Try Swype! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 14:44 · Score: 0

While Swype is excellent, it can't approach the speed, comfort, and power of touch-typing with Dvorak. With the many function keys and heavy intergration with most computer software the keyboard will be with us for many decades to come. Given how popular hand-held touch-sensitive devices have become, text entry methods such as Swype will become ubiquitous and will eventually become the only way of inputting text known to many people but it cannot replace the keyboard.

Re:qwerty designed for... by Brett+Buck · 2012-11-02 05:33 · Score: 1

Well, of course the Cut/Copy/Paste were all chosen as they were BECAUSE it was on a QWERTY....

Hey, waitaminnit! Say, you almost got me there!

They totally failed to mention modern mechanicals. by MouseTheLuckyDog · 2012-11-02 05:33 · Score: 1

Everything I have seen indicates that the newer Model M knockoffs-- aside from Unicomp, the ones using Cherry, Alps , or TopRe keyswitches.are gaining popularity more then jst a cult following. They did mention them but only briefly.

Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by mc6809e · 2012-11-02 05:34 · Score: 2

Having the CTRL on the bottom row is next to useless. And how many people use the capslocks key?

Putting CTRL back to where it was would make keyboard shortcuts easier to use.

Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 05:42 · Score: 1

You can make that change yourself. I do on every computer I use. I map CAPS-Lock to crtl and crtl to capslock on linux on OSX I use caps-lock for crtl and crtl for command. I also use a Model M that weighs more than my Air.
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by LMariachi · 2012-11-02 06:06 · Score: 1

Some Matias keyboards place Ctrl on the home row where Caps Lock usually is, and the Caps & Num Locks down between the right Alt & Ctrl. There are also utilities available to remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, but I’m not sure they work on all keyboards I’m thinking of the old ones where Caps Lock is an actual mechanical toggle that remains semi-depressed when activated, like on a typewriter. Haven’t seen that feature in quite a while, come to think of it.
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:51 · Score: 1

And how many people use the capslocks key?
I USE IT ALL THE TIME
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by quacking+duck · 2012-11-02 09:51 · Score: 1

Even if CTRL is where the capslock key is, you're 1) still using the weakest finger (pinkie) instead of the strongest (thumb) to press it, and 2) you still need both hands to hit a shortcut if it's on the right-hand side.
IMHO the Mac's command key is exactly where a keyboard shortcut trigger/meta key should be: either side of the spacebar.
Try it with the traditional "Find" shortcut, cmd-F (simulate with alt-F on non-Mac, which usually pulls down a File menu) vs. Ctrl-F. With Ctrl-F, I can't get my hand into any position that's comfortable, the least worst is to knuckle down the Ctrl key. With Cmd/Alt-F you can easily reach over the thumb that's pressing the meta key, can even reach the G key (sometimes used for "Find next").
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by DNS-and-BIND · 2012-11-02 10:49 · Score: 1

Capslock is used in Asian language input. I use it daily. Maybe better to leave your Western-centrism at the door and learn some fucking multiculturalism?

--
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 13:00 · Score: 0

Ever heard of AOL?
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by flibbajobber · 2012-11-02 17:40 · Score: 1

And how many people use the capslocks key?
I USE IT ALL THE TIME
i SuBmIt ThAt YoU'vE oNlY uSeD iT oNcE. nOw Me, OtOh...
Re:Move the CONTROL key back to where it was! by badkarmadayaccount · 2012-11-04 10:17 · Score: 1

Japanese version of Apple desktop keyboard is also Sun Type 5 style, AFAIK. What does Capslock do?

--
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.

Premise is false. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:34 · Score: 0

I prefer "yelling at SIRI" to typing when using my ipad when typing prose like this. If I had similar functionality on my PC I would use it. It saves a ton of wear and tear on the hands. The biggest "drawback" is I find I need to speak with practiced diction rather than my usual drawl. Even with the mistakes I still find it faster and less tiresome.

Re:Premise is false. by ColdWetDog · 2012-11-02 06:27 · Score: 1

I prefer "yelling at SIRI" to typing when using my ipad when typing prose like this. If I had similar functionality on my PC I would use it. It saves a ton of wear and tear on the hands. The biggest "drawback" is I find I need to speak with practiced diction rather than my usual drawl. Even with the mistakes I still find it faster and less tiresome.
Hrrumph. When I make a mistake, I want it to be my mistake. Not some random dribble trumped up by the misbegotten spawn of an Apple Newton.

--
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!

Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Animats · 2012-11-02 05:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's a useful article on keyboard mechanisms, and it's a good discussion of the tradeoffs between thin keyboards and ergonomics. The history is weak.

There's no mention of key rollover, or "can you push a key before releasing the previous key"? Modern keyboards report a key down and key up event for each key, so rollover can be unlimited. Early keyboards struggled with this. The Selectric, and Teletype machines, were mechanically interlocked against multiple key-presses. Some early keyboards wouldn't handle two keys down at the same time at all.

The feedback issue was a big one. Some keyboards clicked, some had a "clicker" inside to create the illusion that they clicked, and some beeped, an annoyance which has returned with some touch screens.

It's amusing that iPad-like devices have reverted to a 3-row keyboard with multiple shifts. That's where Teletype machines were a century ago. The keyboard layout of an iPad is very similar to that of a 1930s Teletype.

Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:09 · Score: 0

There's no mention of key rollover, or "can you push a key before releasing the previous key"? Modern keyboards report a key down and key up event for each key, so rollover can be unlimited.
Actually, USB keyboards only support at most 6-key rollover. I'm not sure why that is, and I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. My keyboard supports n-key rollover if it's connected via PS/2, but honestly I can't imagine any situation where 6-key rollover wouldn't be sufficient. I also paid a lot of money for my keyboard. The same limitation applies to all other high-end keyboards I've researched; n-key rollover is only fully supported on PS/2.
Most keyboards are actually much more limited, including a lot of those marketed as "gaming keyboards." Typically it's not bad enough that you'll notice in normal usage, but I've certainly been burned in FPSes and MMOs by bad keyboards with insufficient rollover; try crouching, moving forward, strafing left, viewing the scoreboard, and switching a weapon all at the same time, for example.
Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:20 · Score: 0

Maybe they went 3 rows to save screen real-estate?
I don't know about you, but if my soft keyboard pops up and fills the entire screen so I can't see what I'm typing.. It's not that useful.
Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 07:28 · Score: 0

I'm not an expert but I believe the reason why most usb keyboards have shitty 6-key rollover is because they all use the same or similar shitty chipset for usb interface. It really might be that simple. I am fairly confident there is no inherent limitation in USB + HID that says a keyboard can only have a 6-key buffer.
If I had the time, and a bus analyzer for USB, I'd get to the bottom of it.
Making a keyboard that can handle every-key rollover with NO key jamming isn't terribly difficult (the solution was known as long as keyboard matrixes existed) but it is definitely more expensive, which is probably why so few, if any, make them.
Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Misagon · 2012-11-02 08:10 · Score: 1

No, you are wrong about rollover. Practically only the best mechanical gaming keyboards these days have unlimited rollover, because of there being a diode for each switch in the matrix.
Most inexpensive keyboards have instead a matrix that is optimized so that keys that are commonly used together don't block each other ..
There are still combinations of keys that do.
Modern cheap gaming keyboards these days have matrices that are optimized so that the keys in and around the WASD cluster can be used together.
One thing that irks me whenever I see the iPad's .. or even most Android keyboards, is that the row staggering is non-standard compared to physical keyboards.

--
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by quacking+duck · 2012-11-02 09:57 · Score: 1

One thing that irks me whenever I see the iPad's .. or even most Android keyboards, is that the row staggering is non-standard compared to physical keyboards.
How do you mean? In both the iPad keyboard pic above and my own iPhone with smaller area, the staggering seems roughly the same as my cheap desktop keyboard. Not exactly the same, but it's far better than the perfect row-column keyboards I see on Blackberry Torch touchscreens, and maybe others.
Re:Good article on how keyboards got flatter. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 14:54 · Score: 0

Yes. It is easy to run into key locking problems when using a standard keyboard to play games, particularly if you remap keys or the defaults are poorly thought out (many emulators). The fact that diagonal movement generally requires holding two keys down doesn't help.
Oh, and pretty much all row staggering irks me (physical or otherwise). Look for images of the best ergonomic keyboards and you'll often find the keys lined up vertically: Maltron and TypeMatrix for example. The staggering was necessary to the mechanics of the old typewriters and the fact that we still have this poor ergonomic artifact today is, well, staggering.

Old Farts and Model M's by xanthos · 2012-11-02 05:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

When ever a keyboard article come along you get a bunch of old farts pining away about their venerable old Model M keyboards.

I know. I am an old fart and I have one. I love it but unfortunately it ruined me. I am totally unable to use a laptop keyboard.

They all suck. suck suck suck. The keys are in the wrong place, they don't feel right, and I keep hitting the effing touchpad with my thumbs and suddenly I am typing a porn url in the browser bar.

Now get off my lawn!

--
Average Intelligence is a Scary Thing

Re:Old Farts and Model M's by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 05:49 · Score: 1

I agree, the keyboard I am typing on is likely older than some of the posters in this thread.
Model M or nothing!
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:04 · Score: 0

Lifting up Model M to look at label on bottom... 01APR89
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-11-02 06:06 · Score: 1

When ever a keyboard article come along you get a bunch of old farts pining away about their venerable old Model M keyboards.
Laptop keyboards today remind me of the old IBM 029 Card Punch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keypunch#IBM_029_Card_Punch . That keyboard had a very short action that just didn't feel right to me. Although, I have been able to adapt to laptop keyboards. My ThinkPad W520 is ok.

Now get off my lawn!
You young pre-punch-card-kids and your lawns . . .

--
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by h4rr4r · 2012-11-02 06:37 · Score: 1

07-17-90
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:54 · Score: 0

I'm surprised more people don't know about this:
KDE > Synaptiks > Touchpad Management > Automatically switch off touchpad on keyboard activity.
0.50 second delay is usually good for me.
I am pretty sure there is an equivalent setting in Windows if you bother to download and install the actual Synaptics driver.
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by gspear · 2012-11-02 07:20 · Score: 1

Old fart, but newer "Model M": 9/17/2008, Made in USA
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by sethstorm · 2012-11-02 10:15 · Score: 1

Even older:
6/13/1985 - 122-key Terminal F.

--
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 12:21 · Score: 0

08-09-95
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by fatman22 · 2012-11-02 15:57 · Score: 1

01-18-88, the '87 died a few years back.
Re:Old Farts and Model M's by evilviper · 2012-11-05 08:38 · Score: 1

Laptop keyboards don't have-to suck. Go look at http://typematrix.com/
Laptop style keys, but nice and BIG and lined-up properly. No crazy laptop crap like moving the PGUP/Dn keys around, and requiring the use of a Fn key.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

It ain't the keys... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 05:43 · Score: 0

... it's their arrangement. A QWERTY keyboard was not designed to be ergonomic, it was designed to solve a very specific engineering problem: the most efficient layout to keep a typewriter's hammers from hitting each other.

The days when typewriters had hammers are far behind us. The QWERTY keyboard... less so.

More than happy by A+bsd+fool · 2012-11-02 05:59 · Score: 0

Very satisfied with current keyboard technology, more or less. The toughest thing for me is hunting for the perfect combination of qualities / technologies in a particular keyboard. As a developer I'm pretty picky about my keyboard, moreso than any other aspect of the machine, and there are requirements that just seem hard to fill these days.

1. Wired. No charging or battery changing for me. Tried it once, never again.
2. Full "104 key" layout -- full numeric keypad, separate navigation key area, etc. No giant enter key, no tiny backspace key.
3. No buckling spring nonsense. Noise-induced insanity levels in the office went down >9000% the day we dumped all those model-Ms in the trash.
4. No replacing of standard keys with "proprietary" keys.
5. No MS "natural" split type nonsense.

Those are the requirements. If I can get a few extra multimedia keys (specifically vol up/down and mute), that's a bonus. I've been throught a lot of them, and most seem to fall down in one or two categories. The last one I had and used for a long time was some backlit logitech thing. Great feel, but the "Fn" button and not-quite-standard numeric keypad layout killed it. Tried and returned a variety of "the bestest keyboard evarz!@" including Das Keyboard, Steel Series, and so on.

The two long-time favorites were an old Sun keyboard from a pizzabox (the feel was just perfect), and an even older Keytronics 122key which didn't have the best feel, but the programmable nature and button-swapping features were outstanding.

Today I'm pretty settled on my Lenovo SK-8815. Feel is just right, not too loud, all the keys and all in the right place. I bought a MS "Digital Media Keyboard 3000" (seriously, who names these things) the same day that looks good, but haven't tried it or even opened the package yet as the Lenovo has me very satisfied.

stop already by wbr1 · 2012-11-02 06:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

Enough of the QWERTY Dvorak partisan bickering! We can all use a twiddler: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard

--
Silence is a state of mime.

Re:stop already by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 07:59 · Score: 0

Exactly! It's incredible that we are still entering text one letter at a time when it should be fairly straightforward to hammer out words or syllables at a time as chords (even on something that resembles a standard keyboard)
Re:stop already by wbr1 · 2012-11-02 11:37 · Score: 1

I was on my phone. On a bumpy bus. Using a terrible 'touch' typing interface.

--
Silence is a state of mime.

you can still get doubleshot keys by Chirs · 2012-11-02 06:25 · Score: 1

And there are still new keyboards that use them.

Check out geekhack.org for all things keyboard.

IBM Model M and Logitech LIK by TigerPlish · 2012-11-02 06:39 · Score: 1

The two best keyboards i've had. I've put my M into storage because the LIK gives me just as much feedback minus the noise, and isn't some membrane abomination -- it's a scissors action. Key dip is halfway between an M and a laptop keyboard. The feedback is amazing. No ambiguity at all -- you either hit it, or you didn't.

That it's sleek and backlit and looks like it belongs in this century are bonus points. I don't think, however, that it'll live nearly as long in daily use as a model M, however, my LIKs are used heavily daily and here they are, three years later, no issues. Who knows, maybe they will last 15+ years.

I like the LIK so much I bought two, one for for work one for home.

--
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.

Qwerty - Dvorak Argument / Gay Marriage Argument by srobert · 2012-11-02 06:41 · Score: 0

The argument between the dvorak and qwerty advocates sounds like an argument over gay marriage. Look no one wants to force you to use dvorak, they just want you to have the option, ok?

Re:They totally failed to mention modern mechanica by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 06:44 · Score: 0

Just two months ago I got myself a cherry G80-3000, much cheaper than the gamer/poser mechanical keyboards and contrary to those available with different spring characteristics. I got the clicky-tactile variant which is better for typing than the linear ones used by boards for gamers.

Memorex Telex 122 key ... by Mister+Liberty · 2012-11-02 06:53 · Score: 2

Eat you heart out -- I'm the 'friend' in this story, owner of this
magnificent Memorex Telex 122 keyboard:
http://loosen.home.xs4all.nl/memorex_telex/index.html

All this here typed on a Sun Type 5 keyboard (attached to a Linux
box) for which I made the interface myself. Latter keyboard has
keybeep (5kHz for 2ms with each keystroke), Yea!

You ever heard of an extension cord? by sirwired · 2012-11-02 07:05 · Score: 2

Have you ever heard of an extension cord? And it was only necessary if you couldn't procure a straight-through cord to attach to the models with detachable cords (which was most of them.)

And, of course, you can get a brand-new Model M today with USB if you like.

Re:You ever heard of an extension cord? by mcgrew · 2012-11-04 23:45 · Score: 1

I use one for sound when I'm on the couch using the laptop. It's not nearly as good having no wire.

--
Free Martian Whores!

Sun Type 5 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 07:05 · Score: 0

The true evolution of the computer keyboard stopped with the mighty, never-equaled, IBM Model M. Every "innovation" since then has been a poor compromise in comparison.

Haven't tried a Model M, but I liked the Sun Type 5. The Type 6 (USB) weren't very popular, but the Type 7 ended being basically a Type 5 with USB.

Another one I liked about the Suns was that you could get a "Unix" layout, where there was a CTRL next the A instead of the Caps Lock (which they called the "PC" layout). The other major difference was that in the Unix layout, the ESC was next to the 1, whereas in the PC layout the there's ` and ~.

http://superuser.com/questions/181109/

Turns out there's a ISO standard for keyboards as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995

The best keyboard ever... by RocketRabbit · 2012-11-02 07:27 · Score: 2

Is my old Apple IIGS keyboard. I still have the original one I got in third grade, it still works great with the USB ADB connector widget I bought years ago, and it's loud as hell.

What a fine piece of technology.

Thinkpad keyboards... by SIGBUS · 2012-11-02 07:30 · Score: 1

IMO, they were the best laptop keyboards around - unfortunately, someone thought that "chiclet keyboards with flat tops are kewl!" and now all of the recent laptops I've seen for sale have keyboards that SUCK. Don't even get me started on the incredible disappearing TrackPoint.

The flat keytop nonsense has spread to desktop keyboards as well. HELLO?! Does anyone actually TEST these things to see if they're actually useful for typing?

--
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!

Re:Thinkpad keyboards... by quacking+duck · 2012-11-02 09:40 · Score: 1

I have a Thinkpad. I have a Macbook. Before the Macbook I'd had several years of experience on laptops with traditional laptop keyboards, and never liked them.
I can type far better (speed, accuracy) on my Macbook keyboard than the Thinkpad one. I attribute that to the sloped sides of the Thinkpad make it easier for a slightly-off keystroke to hit the wrong key. I don't have this problem on normal-sized desktop keyboards because keys need to travel more before being recognized.
My external keyboard is also chiclet, by choice. So yes, they are in fact useful for typing, not merely "kewl". Anecdote, not evidence, yadda yadda.

What ever by Foobar_ · 2012-11-02 07:43 · Score: 0

I gave up aunt typing years ago, now I just use voice wreck ignition

Modern mechanicals - by Burz · 2012-11-02 07:46 · Score: 1

Mechanical keyboards are going through a revival after dying out over the course of 20 years. Lots of new options popping up and targeting different niches: Razer and CoolerMaster for gaming, Matias (who just designed their own premium Alps switches) and Das Keyboard for typists, and for typists who want ergonomics there is TrulyErgonomic (with a split, unstaggered mechanical board) and good ol' Kinesis (with their iconic split fingerbowl design, also with unstaggered key layout).

It's still "not there yet", however. These brands are still developing a picture of what people want and there is still too much emphasis on old form factors. Logitech recently unveiled a new mechanical model that is highly conventional which seems intended for gamers.

The compact/tenkey-less form factor is another, separate trend in keyboards that I wish more mechanical vendors would notice. IMO, number pads should be detached/optional and not interfere with a person's reach to a pointing device (nor reduce one's options for positioning on a keyboard tray or desktop); Most keyboards are too wide.

reliability is the key by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 07:54 · Score: 0

keyboard is still the most reliable way for input...

evolution of the keyboard is going backwards.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 08:19 · Score: 0

the trend of flat topped, smooth, shiny, and/or chicklet style laptop keyboards the last few years suck.. desktop keyboards (unless you pay dearly for an aftermarket one) aren't too far behind.

i know the computing public is getting dumber overall with each passing day, increasing the number of two-finger typers, but there are a few of us that can type 100+ wpm and we would like a decent keyboard

(and no, mac laptops ain't any better. they suck _and_ cost too much).

Where did that key go?? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 08:23 · Score: 1

I don't care about the size of the keyboard. I'm visually impaired, and wish they people who move the non-standard keys around would leave them in one place so I don't have to relearn my keyboard when I change laptops or get a new PC at work!

Programmer's Keyboard by Tablizer · 2012-11-02 08:36 · Score: 1

My Lisp keyboard has only two keys: "(" and ")". And I still get them mixed up!

My Perl keyboard has no letters, and my COBOL keyboard has only upper-case.

--
Table-ized A.I.

The M2 was on the PS/1, not the PS/2. by sirwired · 2012-11-02 08:50 · Score: 1

The M2 shipped with the PS/1 (according to your own link), a VERY different beast from the PS/2. Other than the fact that both computers were made by IBM, DOS-compatible, and butt-ugly, the machines have nothing to do with each other.

The PS/1 was a home machine, the PS/2 a business line.

When people say "Model M" they aren't referring to the M1/2.

Re:qwerty designed for... by tbird81 · 2012-11-02 08:59 · Score: 4, Funny

Not to mention that QWERTY enables video games to use WASD to move around. Imagine how hard it would be to play a FPS using Dvorak! W is below and left of S, and A and S are on opposite ends of the computer!

Also, I've noticed the game Starcraft 2 has most of its hotkeys on the left side of the keyboard. Imagine trying this on a Dvorak keyboard!

So I guess my conclusion is that QWERTY was designed with gamers in mind.

If you cannot touch type then do yourself a favor by dshk · 2012-11-02 09:18 · Score: 1

... and get a Kinesis Advantage.. One of it was in my drawer for two years, when I finally brought it out, and to my biggest surprise I was able to touch type English letters within two minutes. It is ergonomic; narrow enough to reach the mouse easily; still your arms can keep a longer, natural distance; there are many thumb keys so there is no need for keys which are very far from your fingers; etc.

But its most important property, which is not even listed in its description, is that the keys are in a diagonal layout. The fingers move straight up and down, this means that finding the keys without looking at the keyboard is almost natural. After trying for ten years without any success, it took me only two days to get back my original (non touch typing) performance, and two months to get proficient in touch typing. And I can tell you that it is a huge difference.

Article is biased by Geof · 2012-11-02 09:43 · Score: 0

The Liebowitz and Margolis article only considers typing speed. On that basis, it finds a lack of evidence that Dvorak is significantly faster, and substantial evidence that it is only slightly faster (on the order of 5%). More importantly, the article claims that the costs of switching would likely wipe out any gains:

There are several versions of the claim that a switch to Dvorak would not be worthwhile. The strongest. which we do not make, is that Qwerty is proven to be the best imaginable keyboard. Neither can we claim that Dvorak is proven to be inferior to Qwerty. Our claim is that there is no scientifically acceptable evidence that Dvorak offers any real advantage over Qwerty.

However, the article makes no mention of accuracy or repetitive strain. It does claim that Dvorak typists move their fingers shorter distances, which would seem likely to reduce strain. In the absence of anything more substantial, I'll fall back on personal experience.

I switched from Qwerty to Dvorak 20 years ago on a bet, and have typed Dvorak ever since. I agree with the article's assessment that it isn't a whole lot faster, probably less than 10%. It's probably also slightly more accurate, but I'm really not sure. However, I am convinced that it is much easier on the fingers. I simply don't suffer from the strain I used to with Qwerty. When I Have had to be bilingual, as it were, at a client site (sometimes for weeks at a time), I have recovered my speed with Qwerty - and the increased strain along withi it.

Liebowitz and Margolis's article is motivated by an economic argument that market entrepreneurs will tend to converge on superior technologies and standards. I am not an economist: but I am a social scientist with some expertise in how innovation is socially shaped, and I don't buy their larger argument. As a scholar, I would point to Trevor Pinch and Weibe Bijker's classic work on the development of the bicycle, and philosopher Andrew Feenberg's assessment that technologies do not succeed because they are efficient: they are efficient because they succeed. One of the best examples of this that I know of is the IBM PC, which even as it took over the market was in many ways technically inferior to its competition.

A big problem I see with the Liebowitz and Margolis argument is that they assume typing speed is the measure of technical superiority. In reality, technical debates are often all about which criteria are relevant. It may well have been that when Qwerty and Dvorak were developed market actors also took for granted speed was the correct criterion. But this is precisely the kind of assumption that locks technology into path dependence. Is it more important to maximize speed, or to minimize stress and injury? There is no single objective answer to such questions. One can only claim market efficiency by assuming an answer. Saying "the aggregate choices of market actors decide" is circular logic that avoids the issue - in which case, the evidence Liebowitz and Morgolis present about speed is irrelevant anyway.

You mean regression. by sethstorm · 2012-11-02 10:04 · Score: 1

Given all the emphasis to lower quality keyboards (chiclet, rubber dome, and the like), evolution would be the wrong word. Regression would be more appropriate given the move towards lower quality keyboard input (or in the case of phones, to eliminate it from high end devices)

Then again, I've typed on Thinkpads, IBM Model M(buckling spring on plastic matrix), and IBM Model F(capacitive buckling spring) keyboards - as well as various QWERTY-devices (N900, N810w, E63, 9500 Communicator).

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Some observations and wishful thinking by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 11:39 · Score: 0

Sound feedback when typing (a la Model M) would be nice; I've never understood why can't we have it, since xset has a "key click" volume setting option -- I know it's supposed to require specific hardware but I don't get why no one ever did it via software for normal keyboards (yeah, I'm gonna hack the kernel one of these days and do it)... for people who don't want that, KDE could even offer a default volume setting of 0...

How do wireless keyboards work regarding privacy? I am afraid of typing my bank passwords on them -- for wi-fi, I'm pretty sure using https makes it safe to access my accounts over my WPA2 PSK connection... but if I'm using my el cheapo wireless keyboard to type the password, what happens before it reaches the notebook?

It's nice to use 10-meter range RF wireless keyboards as remotes to control flv playing on the TV... the problem is it's somewhat bulky. Any ideas? I know I can make Android work as remote (in a safer way, which would solve the problem above, too) and my tablet accepts a big usb keyboard, but my wife hates too many things in her otherwise neat living room...

One of the best keyboards I used was actually very badly constructed: the Sinclair ZX / Timex 1000, made of a plastic membrane -- terrible to type on... but it could be used in a mode-like fashion and that would save a lot of keypresses, making it very efficient after all; I wish there would be such functionality in Linux/modern apps, too (e.g. some kind of macro definition at the keyboard driver level).

Well, that's it for the moment...

Re:Some observations and wishful thinking by dshk · 2012-11-02 14:48 · Score: 1

Although that is not on a driver level, but macro programmable keyboards do exist. The advantage is that you do not have install anything on any OS. The disadvantage is that keyboards are not really mobile.
Re:Some observations and wishful thinking by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-03 07:01 · Score: 0

Now that you mention, I've seen in very old times an Apple II "clone" with programmable keys.
Also, I've been using VIM with macros and it's just great, hence my suggestion... but it's important to have some kind of visual feedback. Right now, I think the best idea would be having an Android app to make the phone/tablet work as a programmable keyboard. It must even already exist...

FUCKING cAPS by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-02 14:52 · Score: 0

GET RID OF CAPS LOCK! FUCK

Re:They totally failed to mention modern mechanica by tiedemann · 2012-11-02 20:59 · Score: 1

Agreed. I love my Topre Realforce.

1 print page & loud clicky keyboards. by antdude · 2012-11-03 08:05 · Score: 1

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9233085/Past_is_prototype_The_evolution_of_the_computer_keyboard?taxonomyName=Computer+Peripherals&taxonomyId=235 for one/single print page.

http://aqfl.net/node/5825/ for a clicky keyboard poll and my comments. It seems like women hate them. :(

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The Evolution of the Computer Keyboard

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