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You can get a player that uses a laser on vinyl, but it's even more of a pain in the ass than you would expect, because while a needle may easily move the smallest bits of dust out of the way, a laser will happily pick it up as noise. The discs have to be kept extremely clean. They mostly get used for archival purposes, and I guess also for the few people who are willing to pay the price just for the geekiness of having one.

There is a laser tracking turntable. It was developed in the late 80s. It is now this: http://elpj.com/

No, they don't. By their very nature, they don't.

That stylus going over the record each time you play it? Yeah, that's degrading the signal. Every. Single. Time

You're most likely correct, but you don't know what kind of equipment he's using. If it's one of these Then no, there is no wear or degradation. I've seen a few of the EPL turntables, but could never personally justify the cost. I think the cheapest model was around $9K at one point. I have no idea what they go for these days.

http://www.elpj.com/

Where are you getting your information from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserDisc#DVD

LaserDisc is analog. Something doesn't become digital simply because it's read with a laser. Look at laser turntables.

http://www.elpj.com/

You could get a ELP Laser Turntable but it would probably be cheaper to get the original artists to reform and perform live in your home.

One plausible reason someone might find vinyl sound better is that the analog electronic circuitry is vastly simpler than that of a CD player, so there is less chance to mess it up.

For the high frequency, the digital circuits could produce prominent interference because the wave shape of a digital signal has a lot of harmonics (square wave as opposed to sinusoidal). It's the same reason that on some computers you can hear whenever you move your mouse or when your CPU is doing work.

For the low frequency, the digital-analog converter might not have enough "omph" to drive the output, so you hear distortion on bases.

Vinyl players have mostly analog circuits, and analog distortions are harder to notice by ear. Digital distortion tends to be more noticeable again due to the harmonics of the digital signal. Of course I'm not talking about one of those digital laser vinyl players which I've not listened to, but I could imagine the device's designer must be careful to avoid the pitfall of both worlds, namely lower dynamic range of the vinyl and the possibility of introducing digital distortion.

Granted, what I described are generally "digital audio" problems not specific to CDs. Not all digital audio circuits are created equal. Consumer grade hardware is more hit or miss. Prosumer stuff tends to be more scrutinized so you can read reviews on zZounds or Musician's Friend or BH photo video to see if anyone is having noise or distortion problems. True for both CD player or if you're just looking for an external audio interface for your computer.

Give the digital files away for free...that's all they are worth...and sell us a new analog format on an optical disc.

The 'touchless' laser turntables sold at

http://www.elpj.com/

are EXPENSIVE but will play black vinyl analog ('broken') records with maximum fidelity with no wear and tear to the record. Now, all the labels have to do make them MUCH cheaper, make the vinyl records CD-sized, and encase them permanently in protective plastic to protect the groove. This might be possible...if not, we are STILL stuck with CDs...

CAPTCHA: bawled (food for thought...)

virgin (never saw the needle) vinyl on an analogical laser turntable is ++good

The magic words you are looking for is:
  * laser turntable
It uses a laser for its pickup so the vinyl is never touched.
i.e.
      http://www.elpj.com/

Of course it is not without its critics:
      http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-ELP.html

Now if only the dam price was so obnoxious ...

You make some good other points.

I thought I read an article a while back about a company or some researcher or someone who did non-intrusive laser scans on vinyl record albums and processed the resulting scans to re-create the sound? The intent was to record the sound without harming the physical vinyl.

A quick Google search returns an article about this as well as a "touchless" laser turntable.

Anyone else remember this?

Agreed. A perfect video complement for any real audiophile's vinyl record componentry

...which start at about 15 grand. At that point, buy the DVD-A.

No, they start at $12K: http://www.elpj.com/purchase/index.html

Or you can pick one up on ebay for $10K: http://cgi.ebay.com/ELP-Laser-Turntable-Play-records-w-laser-Last-one-left-/170538526748?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b4e3681c

Not if you buy one of these $20,000 laser turntables :-)

Has anyone ever had experience with the laser (non contact) turntable? Seems like an excellent way to stop wear on archaic recordings....

http://www.elpj.com/

Not digital, but I bet you anything you like you'll get a much better file by digitising the analogue output.

ELP's Laser Turntable gets part way there.

It's funny the same website sells a vacuum cleaner for getting records dust free http://www.elpj.com/purchase/accessories.html

Vinyl degrades with each use; there is no getting around it.

Actually, you CAN get around it if you're willing to shell out $10k+ :

http://www.elpj.com/

How about vinyl read by laser?

You for sure refer to the ELP Laser Turntable.

Then replace vinyl by a durable medium, presumably involving some nanocomposite coating (and of course you could physically reformat the thing).

CC.

Perhaps surprisingly, these problems have been solved. The manufacturers of the laser turntable have some interesting information on the subject. It seems to be an analogue pickup with computer-controlled tracking of the groove - apparently this is good enough to work on warped records. Clever stuff.

The quality is simply irrelevant what matters is the experience.

On a CD you pop in a disk into a drive, wait a bit and then have a bit-to-bit exact copy of it on your harddrive or flash. You cannot do much wrong with this process and your data well also always sound precisely the same, nomatter what you do. (unless of course you are using sub-standard D/A converters)

With vinyl on the other hand you actually have an experience. You take that disk, carefully put it into the tray or turntable of your record player and carefully play it. It actually matters if you clean your record before putting it into the player as the laser will read every particle of dust as a click.

You cannot easily copy records (although devices to cut your own records are moderately cheap) and you definitely cannot replace the experience with CDs or MP3s or whatever.

Sure, from the technical standpoint microgroove records are a thing of the past, but you have to see the whole user experience. People like them because something turns.

BTW, the problem of wear has been solved a decade ago:
http://www.elpj.com/purchase/index.html

http://www.elpj.com/ Boo ya!

a groove made of matter isn't even continuously analog. I think there would be a minimum practical grain size of platter material which could cause a needle to deflect.

Even if you had one of these: http://www.elpj.com/main.html the maximum frequency would still be determined by the largest molecule or grain size and speed of rotation of the disk.

So, as the information in the platter is finite, you can always match or exceed it by digitally sampling at high enough rate.

i.e. you can't record a 10MHz signal on a vinyl platter and expect to play it back, but you can certainly record a 10MHz signal by digital sampling and reproduce it faithfully (e.g. using my 100MHz storage CRO).

http://www.elpj.com/ No Needle, No Wear

You believe wrong. They call them laser turntables.

http://www.elpj.com/main.html

I disagree with your 99.99% of produced music is post processed w/ digital effects. That number is way too high, there are many studios advertising analog production. Also, a lot of studios will use tube preamps for vocals and EQs to warm up the sound. Either way, not too many people will use the 100% effected sound, it's a blend of both. It will more often then not get mastered to a digital recorder of some kind though.

Sending your dance music records to the UK to be mastered is a popular thing because they'll cut you an analog record with the tools set nearly as high as it will go; ruining the acetate cutting needle in the process if you're willing to pay for the superior sound.

Also, I only know of 1 laser turntable and that is the ELP. http://www.elpj.com/

Please post links to others if they exist.

Too bad you'd need a US$10000 player to prevent your vinyl from wearing out. I for one would prefer properly mastered losslessly compressed audio files (or CDs if need be).

yes, with a laser turntable http://www.elpj.com/

Here is a link to a Japanese optical turntable called ELP. I too heard about an optical turntable a few years back...don't know if this is the same one. Sounds like a pretty neat idea though.

http://www.elpj.com/about/index.html

I play my vinyl records all day with no damage using my ELP Laser Turntable. Now that optical players are available, only a Philistine would actually drop a goddamn needle into an analog track these days. Needle turntables are going to go the way of shoe store X-rays, lead paint, filament lightbulbs, and mercury thermometers.

Got $9,900.00 -- $14,000.00 and a bunch of black vinyl records?

Get a turntable here:

http://www.elpj.com/

Even plays warped and broken records! (within reason)

"ELP Laser Turntable: plays vinyl records with CD quality sound. No Needle, No Wear!"

(Not a shill, just a guy who stills remember analog records and thinks this gadget is cool but PRICEY!)

http://www.elpj.com/main.html

At least similar.

CC.

> "Archival vinyl" is an oxymoron unless you never play the album.
> they'll come up with a nondestructive way to read the disc, like a laser beam. Oops, they did that. It's called a CD.

Hey buddy, here's a clue stick...

Two words: Laser Turntable

If vinyl turntables (with USB, natch) used a laser pickup instead of a mechanical stylus, vinyl would be a lot more popular. Then records wouldn't wear out nearly as much. They could be sold used for more money with less damage. And a laser turntable could scan a record at high speed (maybe 333 1/3 RPM, 100x) for portable (lower-fi) playing on iPod, mobile phone, etc.

Want a turntable with a laser stylus? Check out ELP Laser Turntable. Wish I could afford one.

If records really want to make a comeback, they'll come up with a nondestructive way to read the disc, like a laser beam.

Forget cds, try this. It is a turntable with a laser needle.

I agree that high quality analog recordings are a good thing to keep around for posterity, but analog recordings certainly aren't better for home reproduction (they'll get a little worse every time you play them)

Do the same thing I used to do, the first tyme I played an LP/EP record I'd record it on my reel-to-reel tape deck then put the record away for safe keeping and play the tape. Yea, sure the tape eventually wears out but you've still got the vinyl you can record again.

Repeated play degrades a record, while it doesn't really degrade a CD.

With the newer needles records can't be scratched, there isn't really a physical needle instead lasers are used, at least in high end turntables. Here's one.

None of those crappy products the poster cited are the reason for the surge. The surge is due to high-end LASER record players. Nothing even touches the vinyl, so you get the goodness of vinyl without wear and tear.

Here is one of them: http://www.elpj.com/

like this? http://www.elpj.com/main.html

Amusingly enough they did it for Vinyl as well: http://www.elpj.com/main.html. Sure as hell aint cheap though.

I don't mind the pops and crackles to get to listen to that warm sound you can't get from sterile sounding CDs....I would buy a laser-stylus turntable. - http://www.elpj.com/

You mean the same company that offers a recording of their product on CD?

A well-mastered CD is better than vinyl, and playing a CD doesn't involve: physical wear, horizontal tracking angle error, leveling adjustment worries, inner groove distortion, channel balance error, stereo crosstalk, anti-skating compensation, acoustic feedback, locked groove problems, problems tracking warped, cracked, or eccentric records, cartridge hum pickup[1] and -- best of all -- a CD player doesn't cost 10 grand.

There are plenty of reasons to buy vinyl -- some of which you mentioned -- but high quality sound isn't one of them. And as one of the posters above mentioned, you can just digitally add some hissing, popping, and create a feedback loop if you really enjoy that.

[1] Wikipedia - Laser Turntable

I don't mind the pops and crackles to get to listen to that warm sound you can't get from sterile sounding CDs....I would buy a laser-stylus turntable. - http://www.elpj.com/

You mean the same company that offers a recording of their product on CD?

A well-mastered CD is better than vinyl, and playing a CD doesn't involve: physical wear, horizontal tracking angle error, leveling adjustment worries, inner groove distortion, channel balance error, stereo crosstalk, anti-skating compensation, acoustic feedback, locked groove problems, problems tracking warped, cracked, or eccentric records, cartridge hum pickup[1] and -- best of all -- a CD player doesn't cost 10 grand.

There are plenty of reasons to buy vinyl -- some of which you mentioned -- but high quality sound isn't one of them. And as one of the posters above mentioned, you can just digitally add some hissing, popping, and create a feedback loop if you really enjoy that.

[1] Wikipedia - Laser Turntable

As you wish it: http://www.elpj.com/

$15,000 US dollars for a record player?

Ay Carumba!!!!!!

As you wish it: http://www.elpj.com/

Actually, the whole worn-groove issue is a thing of the past with some newer turntables I've seen that use a laser to read the groove. A tad costly at U$15k, though.

I don't mind the pops and crackles to get to listen to that warm sound you can't get from sterile sounding CDs. If you have a decent turntable/needle and know how to clean albums, you won't hear many cracks and pops anyways. I like flipping the record over, as you listen to whole albums once again rather than hitting the skip button and only listening to a few songs off the CD. I can certainly hear the difference, but if you can't - more power to you, enjoy the CDs. I could break every one of my CDs and feel nothing, but I get really bummed when something happens to my vinyl. Most of the people I know that bag on vinyl do it out of jealousy - it took me 25 years, many fun hours of searching for rare finds, and lots of money to build up my 400+ collection. Anyone can just go out and buy a CD, what fun or challenege is that? And if I had $10,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I would buy a laser-stylus turntable. - http://www.elpj.com/ - It plays vinyl without anything physically touching the album - no more loss of quality at all!

That is not necessarily true. There are some turntables that use lasers as the stylus rather than a very fine diamond (or worse depending on the quality of player such as a Fisher-Price record player). The ones that use lasers do not damage the media.

Now if they just get mom and dad to get them one of these laser turntables so their records never wear-out. http://www.elpj.com/