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I said that guy insists on using an obscure word that's basically never used instead or the more standard one everyone groks in order to try and sound clever.

Frak that, I thought we were in a cyberspace forum where people use words from science fiction to communicate as the audience is expected to like the same things as us. If that isn't true, time might just go all wibbly wobbly.

That last one was a stretch, but the point is you write for your audience, we aren't writing for English class here, we are doing informal writing, where style is less important than substance, and writing towards a more technically inclined audience where many of the members grew up reading hard sci fi like Heinlein. Personally, I never read Stranger in a Strange Land, and never really took to Heinlein, but I knew what grok meant, and never really saw a big deal with it in common informal speech.

I ran across grok as the Linux command well before ever looking the word up, so I just used that meaning of the word:

http://doc.gnu-darwin.org/xmba...

Not everyone on an online forum is going to write like an English teacher, and expecting everyone to use formal speech on the internet will end up constantly frustrating you. It is much like railing against TXT SPCH.

Look at the date on the patent. There is a massive amount of prior art. This is a silly patent and lawsuit.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

It is a funny story. This school board needs a healthy dose of creationism fallacies. How about the problem of evil, or the rock that is too heavy for God to lift? How absurd for creationists to consider the fallacies of evolution. Any discussion of creationism demands a discussion of its fallacies. Perhaps absurd thinking is an adaptation that confers some advantage. That would explain its persistence. Time will tell, no?

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

It is based on BSD. It's called Darwin.

I hacked away at Darwin to see if it would run on Intel a bit before Apple bit Intel for chips. Almost worked, but i needed those modules that bypassed the TPC stuff...

cheers- raga

Yes, e.g. the folks at Gnu-Darwin: http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Um. With GNU-Darwin installed it's pretty much as good as any Linux distribution. I don't know what you're whining about.

Unfortunately, most Mac programs won't run without the nice fancy GUI around. :-/

kernel included for nothin

Regards,
proclus

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Sally has no choice but to pay for another copy of Windows,

• freebsd
• openbsd
• netbsd
• gnu-darwin
• ReactOS
• SuSe
• Fedora
• Debian
• Gentoo

-- Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 8.2).

Apple released Darwin for Intel long ago...it's rather strange that no one has started a Desktop distribution with it.

I see alot of comments about how OS X will never run on commodity x86 hardware, how the x86 BIOS and OpenFirmware are too different, blah, blah. Newsflash! Darwin, the core of OS X has been running on x86 almost since it was first introduced to the public [1], [2], [3].

The core of OS X is booting and running on commodity hardware NOW. There is no speculation needed. It's here.

I also hear complaints about how now Apple is starting from scratch again with their software base, libraries, etc. Newsflash #2. They're almost starting from scratch, but with a much larger audience, AND a more enthusiastic developer base (see [1],[2],[3] yet again, and [4]).

Steve Jobs knows this. Why do you think he's releasing this preview for developer consumption now? Because by the time the x86 Apple machines actually ship, developers and users will have already been running full Darwin/OS X x86 system for quite awhile. He's leveraging early adopters and the OSS movement. This will be a far better transition than the m68k/PPC was.

[1] http://www.opendarwin.org/
[2] http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
[3] http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
[4] http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/

I see alot of comments about how OS X will never run on commodity x86 hardware, how the x86 BIOS and OpenFirmware are too different, blah, blah. Newsflash! Darwin, the core of OS X has been running on x86 almost since it was first introduced to the public [1], [2], [3].

The core of OS X is booting and running on commodity hardware NOW. There is no speculation needed. It's here.

I also hear complaints about how now Apple is starting from scratch again with their software base, libraries, etc. Newsflash #2. They're almost starting from scratch, but with a much larger audience, AND a more enthusiastic developer base (see [1],[2],[3] yet again, and [4]).

Steve Jobs knows this. Why do you think he's releasing this preview for developer consumption now? Because by the time the x86 Apple machines actually ship, developers and users will have already been running full Darwin/OS X x86 system for quite awhile. He's leveraging early adopters and the OSS movement. This will be a far better transition than the m68k/PPC was.

[1] http://www.opendarwin.org/
[2] http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
[3] http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
[4] http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/

Seems like you totally confused GNU-Darwin (which hosed your system) with OpenDarwin and it's DarwinPorts project.

No, perhaps you could try googling when curious.

Is of course the GNU/Darwin. Somehow it is what GNU always wanted to have - a GNU running on a microkernel (at least sort of). (I admit, I don't know what licence applies to Darwin).

Why would Stallman care? SkyOS is a non-Free system, so anyone choosing it over a Free system like GNU/Linux or GNU/Darwin would be a loss.

what software are you talking about? Please check DarwinPorts, Fink and GNU-Darwin to see that actually most GNU-style software runs on OS-X just fine.
Only thing I see at first glance, that OS-X is not conforming to the FHS is, that it mounts external media in /Volumes instead of /media ...

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FrequentlyAs kedQuestionEn#donate

Whoa! This is a huge thread, and thank goodness! Hopefully the following info is not redundant.

Links

http://www.indymedia.it/ http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/08/10970895 54894.html

This is such an outrage, and a betrayal of civil liberties, that there are sure to be more stories. nyc.indymedia.org was instrumental to our recent anti-war action. It appears that the Bushies cannot tolerate freedom of the press, and blow back goes two ways. Please do whatever you can to help Indymedia, especially at this crucial time. Thank you!

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

There is always GNU Darwin [gnu-darwin.org]. It's no Mac OS X, but it uses the same kernel.

Or you could emulate your x86 processor to act like a PowerPC one with PearPC [sourceforge.net], and then install Mac OS X. Might be best to go with the real thing, though.

don't be stupid

don't be stupid

I'm sure they would appreciate your money! But they aren't asking for it.

Darwin, the core component of OS X already exists for x86. Further, as many have pointed out, Darwin is open-source. Quartz, Aqua etc. are not open-source; but they are not the operating system (more like a glitzzy eye-candy). Heck, if you looked for it, you can also find non-GPLed binary files in commercial Linux distros (which, admittedly do not have any thing to do with the OS).

Your assumed definition of monoploy is also incorrect. Monopoly does not apply to brands (like GM, Ford etc.) - it applies to the entire market for that comodity (like cars, trucks etc.) Just because you cannot buy a Ford Escort from Diemler-Chrysler or GM, does not make Ford a monoply.

cheers- raga

The first link you mention says the following

Whoops, my bad: that link was supposed to go to the projects page, not the compiler page.

Secondly, you talk about Apple contributing "XNU" to the open source community. You didn't mention that the open source community had to fight Apple as Apple's original license was horribly one-sided. It is only very recently (Sept-12-2003) that Apple changed their license and had it approved by the OSI.

Incorrect again. The OSI has considered the APSL an "Open Source License" since version 1.1 IIRC. What changed on 9/12/03 was that the FSF decided that the latest version of the APSL qualified as a "Free Software License." Yay for them, I guess.

You really need to get over this delusion that the FSF is the be-all and end-all of the open source "community." And you really, really need to understand that BSD code is not GPL code.

A compiler backend, especially one written to a pre-existing framework, is not similar in scope to SAMBA or JBOSS.

Correct, although not in the sense you mean. A compiler is substantially more difficult, which you'd know if you'd had any idea what you were talking about.

While the current APSL 2.0 license is going in a good direction, none of that direction is due to Apple's innate desire or inherent corporate philosophy.

This is so ass-backwards I don't even know where to begin. If Apple had no "innate desire" to work with the FSF and OSI, they wouldn't have released the code in the first place, nevermind burned hundreds of man-hours of lawyer time (which probably cost them millions of dollars total) continuing to work on the license.

But hey, I'm only a developer and a sysadmin who actually reads Apple's developer documentation and knows people who work at the company. Obviously your psychic powers give you far greater insight into this situation than any mere facts.

I'm sure you recall "www.ipodsdirtysecret.com"

Yes. I also recall that it was published two weeks after Apple announced their batter refurb program, and well over a year after ipodbattery.com launched their (3rd-party) replacement offer. But again, I suppose psychic powers trump mere facts. And what the hell does this have to do with MacOS X or open source? Not a goddamn thing, and the same with your pathetic attempt to drag the ibook's hardware problems into this. Stop wasting my time by trying to turn this into yet another "everything Apple does is evil" whinefest.

I notice there is nobody using Apple's XNU for anything. And I wonder if Apple Legal has crushed them or silenced them in some way.

Yeah, that's right, Apple's black-suited ninjas arrived in the middle of the night and slit their throats. SCAAAAARRRRY.

You have to "wonder" about such a thing only because it didn't happen, and therefore you're reduced to spreading FUD rather than pointing to actual events.

I spent much more than 10 seconds with Google trying to find evidence of any third party using Darwin for their own projects/products and couldn't find anything. Do you have more information?

Apparently you're just not that good at actually using google, not that this is a shock or anything.

Looking at the list of "open source projects" on Apple's website, most of code was not written by Apple.

And you of course actually looked at the CVS checkins and counted up how many lines of code were contributed by people at Apple?

No, of course not, we've already established that you're not actually a developer, just some sort of weird FSF fanboy with an axe to grind.

Yes, the Mach kernel originally came out of CMU. That was, since you were not paying attention, over fifteen years ago. First NeXT and then Apple have spent the intervening time completely rewriting most of that code.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/06/1729 21 3

We are developing actively for the ppc platform, including OS 10.3. You should know these things, of all people, so I can only conclude that you are deliberately spreading lies about the Distro. Ahh well, it appears that the good news is drowning out your factitious message.

Regards,

proclus


http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

It's not nonsense.
Look here in their own press archive, 3rd article from the top.
They still have their old PPC stuff in "matinance mode", but they only actually develop on x86. (unless they meekly pulled back from their position without bothering to make a statement to that effect).

While I am not sure why someone would want to run Darwin instead of Linux-ppc if not because they have to run one or more proprietary apps (that's my excuse) this is just nonsense:

GNU-Darwin decided to support only x86, not PPC, some time ago in a fit of 'activisim'.

I know it's nonsense, because I have a lot of their packages installed on my TiBook at the moment. Look here. Packages for PPC and x86, no problem.

Microsoft Windows(TM) might be able to run on intel emulation, that will allow Microsoft Windows to run on it, but frankly, who cares except Microsoft, Intel, AMD and maybe a few others?

If windows doesn't port to this processor, I am sure some other OS will take over, and everything will be rewritten for that OS. Alternately, you might go with an existing OS easier to port, like Mac OS, NetBSD or GNU/Linux. (URLs in the of this post)

A silly OS and its platform dependence isn't gonna stop development that much.

Kind regards,

/Spam .

URL's for possible alternatives goes here, I am sure I miss a lot of them:

Mac OS:

Mac OSX

GNU/Darwin

NetBSD:

NetBSD

GNU/Linux:

Red Hat GNU/Linux

Debian supports several platforms.

SuSE GNU/Linux

Mandrake GNU/Linux is a distribution from France.

Slackware GNU/Linux is a classic.

Some will charge you for GNU/Linux, and give you support or written manuals, silver-CDs or something in return. I probably missed a lot of links, but to mention some of the commercial distributions I missed, here is a comparison on price.

"And before you laugh at me for using Yahoo! Mail, can you access your mail at any web browser anywhere?"

Yep: GNU-Darwin webmail

"The one thing I've never understood is the relationship between OpenDarwin and the distribution concerns."

"GNU-Darwin almost seems to be hindering the entire Mac OSS unix community."

"This almost surreal splintering can do nothing but harm the overall effort of ported OSS software for the Mac."

"If we can't agree that the PPC is the heart of the Mac, than what can we agree on?"

That is an excellent question. I don't have an answer, but I think that we will bless Apple for this license in years to come

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Alternatively, you can bypass the license page by getting it from GNU-Darwin. It is free software after all ;-}.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/packages.shtml

If you don't want a bunch of GTK/GNOME apps, then follow the directions to install just the essential files. After that, additional packages are easy to add fast.

pkg_add -frv fileutils

It is a binary distro, so compilation is not necessary, but if you want to compile, you can try the ports or one of the other distros.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ports/index.shtml

Unfortunately, we are experiencing some temporary intermittent problems with the mirror system right now, so you might have to try later or order discs.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/order.shtml

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/packages.shtml

If you don't want a bunch of GTK/GNOME apps, then follow the directions to install just the essential files. After that, additional packages are easy to add fast.

pkg_add -frv fileutils

It is a binary distro, so compilation is not necessary, but if you want to compile, you can try the ports or one of the other distros.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ports/index.shtml

Unfortunately, we are experiencing some temporary intermittent problems with the mirror system right now, so you might have to try later or order discs.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/order.shtml

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/packages.shtml

If you don't want a bunch of GTK/GNOME apps, then follow the directions to install just the essential files. After that, additional packages are easy to add fast.

pkg_add -frv fileutils

It is a binary distro, so compilation is not necessary, but if you want to compile, you can try the ports or one of the other distros.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ports/index.shtml

Unfortunately, we are experiencing some temporary intermittent problems with the mirror system right now, so you might have to try later or order discs.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/order.shtml

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/packages.shtml

If you don't want a bunch of GTK/GNOME apps, then follow the directions to install just the essential files. After that, additional packages are easy to add fast.

pkg_add -frv fileutils

It is a binary distro, so compilation is not necessary, but if you want to compile, you can try the ports or one of the other distros.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ports/index.shtml

Unfortunately, we are experiencing some temporary intermittent problems with the mirror system right now, so you might have to try later or order discs.

http://www.gnu-darwin.org/order.shtml

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

I am unwilling to compromise the truth of the matter, which is that the Distribution was misrepresented not be me, but by the factitious headline at MacSlash, a simple lie. If it were not for that misreport, this conversation would not be taking place.

It is no surprise that such a sensational headline was picked up by other sites. There are many possible reasons for this, but we clearly live in times when lies are often repeated and amplified by many in the press. It is also no surprise that corporate media outlets did not pick up the story, despite Apple's stock drop ;-}. Real damage control means squashing falsehood.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

The confusion here arises solely from the incorrect headline at the time the story broke. There are no conspiracies or unseen agendas. We are only trying to reach Apple users with software freedom.

On the other hand, if people insist on believing and spreading falsehoods, then they might like to tell people that we don't support PPC. It is just that simple.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Moreover, your post is terribly off-topic, but since you bring it up...

Anyone who is interested in Mutant Space Radical Mormon-Wiccan cooperatives, please feel free to visit Graff's links and drop me a line. Be sure and read the FAQ first.

http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/faq.html

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

If you have any other helpful suggestions, please feel free to pass them along. Cheers!

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

If this needs any further clarification, just ask or email me privately as you like.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Yes, and on DVD-R. If that is really jargon, care to suggest an alternative which includes both CD and DVD?

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Isn't this a dead horse, Pudge? I think this means that the PPC side of the Distro is well maintained.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

Regards,

proclus


http://www.gnu-darwin.org/

If you want GNU-Darwin background and a balanced view, ignore Pudge's "FUD" and try the following links.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2003/ 1/20/191655/929
http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-25.en.htm l
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/01/2 028254&mode=thread

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/