Why iPod Can't Save Apple

MadMirko writes "MacNN quotes an article from Money Magazine titled Why iPod can't save Apple, which says 'the buzz on the digital music player and "swank" storefronts are masking an ebbing bottom line, noting reduced CPU sales (resulting a shrinking marketshare), decreased profits (in part due to the lower-margin iPod and little-to-no profit at the iTunes Music Store), failure of the iPod to drive CPU sales, failure of the retail stores to increase marketshare, hidden retail store costs, no operational income, and little value in the stock.'"

Comments

Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[The I Shing]

Yes, yes, yes, Apple's about to bite to dust, we've been hearing that for years.

Check out the Apple Death Knell Counter for links to many, many other articles, dating back to 1995, all of which have experts predicting that Apple is about to go bust.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Krondor]

And one year they'll be right. It's a definite that one day apple will die. Just as IBM will die, Intel will die, AMD will die, America will die, England will die. Over an infinite amount of time all these things will one day end. It's a definite and provable truth. So yes Apple is constantly about to die, but the question is on who's timeline are you talking?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing that would have topped this article is putting "Netcraft Confirms...." in the beginning of the title.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[tdemark]

Yeah, but this article is different... I don't think they used the term beleagered once.

- Tony

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who read, in part due to the lower-margin iPod and couldn't manage to avoid snorting the liquid I was drinking out my nose?

Seriously, low margin? Ipod? How did those two things get in the same sentence?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[SillyNickName4me]

low margin != low price. What this is suggesting is that the ipod is rather expensive for apple to make.. soemthing I somehow don't really believe, which makes me doubt the entire article.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Orkin]

All you have done is denied the premise of The I Shing's statement; you have in no way refuted it. Semantic arguments are just plain silly...

When someone refers to the immediacy of something by saying "Apple is about to die," they are OBVIOUSLY referring to a commonly accepted understanding of the relative immediacy of the impending collapse. To compare this to the collapse of England or the Sun going nova is just avoiding logical discussion of the topic altogether.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

What this is suggesting is that the ipod is rather expensive for apple to make..

Well, yeah, that's exactly my whole point. An Ipod mini is not a $250 piece of gear, okay? And a 40 GB Ipod is *really* not a $500 piece. Don't get me started on their $40 headphone replacements, and $20 engraving. Low margin and apple do *not* mix.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[edxwelch]

On top of that there is an entire industry dependant on Apple. If you are in the graphic design business (I mean the printed variety not web design) then you have to use Apple.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[smittyoneeach]

Disagree. Apple is to computers what Cadillac is to cars.
I want to see an economically-founded argument that targeting the premium segment of a market is a Bad Thing.
Had I cash aplenty, I'd be all about one o' them sexy G4 monstuhs with a flat screen the size of a sheet of plywood.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[theLOUDroom]

And one year they'll be right. It's a definite that one day apple will die. Just as IBM will die, Intel will die, AMD will die, America will die, England will die. Over an infinite amount of time all these things will one day end. It's a definite and provable truth. So yes Apple is constantly about to die, but the question is on who's timeline are you talking?

I dunno about that. Some groups (IBM, The Rolling Stones, etc)have so much money and power they'll probably be around forever. Even if the universe was going to end, IBM's R&D would probably to develop a method to transport itself to an alternate dimension.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

If what you're saying is true, then what's the point of saying that Apple will die all the time? In the list of things that are going to die, you left out the obvious---yourself. Do you think it's OK if people keep on predicting your inevitable demise everyday? What would they really being saying if they did that?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Nakito]

Indeed, the article cites the "failure of the iPod to drive CPU sales" as evidence of trouble. Have the authors of the article forgotten that Apple made a deliberate decision to make the iPod not dependent on the Apple platform? The ads tout that the iPod is compatible with both the Apple and Windows platforms. So here is a product that is successful in exactly the way that Apple intended: it is penetrating the market for Windows users as well as Apple users. Would the authors of the article be happier if the iPod was instead limited to the Apple niche?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jonboy X]

Over an infinite amount of time all these things will one day end. It's a definite and provable truth.

Reminds me of an old joke from a friend's sig line: "I plan on living forever. So far, so good."

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

They've been doing business, and well.
As long as your one-dimensional argument ignores economic realities, you will continue to need a place like /. to emit petulant noises.
Grow up, and make something more gooder.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Mr. Troll]

low margin != low price. What this is suggesting is that the ipod is rather expensive for apple to make.. soemthing I somehow don't really believe, which makes me doubt the entire article.


Yeah, because Money magazine has some secret vendetta against Apple. They are secretly MS fanboyz!@#@# OMG teh suxor and all that crap.

Anyhow, the financial numbers don't lie. Loosing market share and shrinking margins is usually a pretty sure sign a company is in decline. No need to be testy, it just happens.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[tc]

Perhaps that's a very apt comparison. After all, Cadillac is having its lunch eaten by BMW, Mercedes and Lexus.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[jonpublic]

I've heard about Apple dying before. Maybe its just my social circle, but I know of alot of people who are getting macs, the kind of cool kids that lead the general population by about 6 months to a year. On a side note. I'm definitely getting a mac for my mom instead of a pc. With the pc she has had, every 3 months there is always some virus or something like that that she is getting. Even if the pc is cheaper, its not worth the hassle.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has been doing business, and well.
As long as your one-dimensional argument ignores economic realities, you will continue to need a place like /. to emit petulant noises.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[stilwebm]

Ahh, but see, you're on to something there. For one, it is worth noting that the retail price of a compact flash card with the same capacity of the iPod Mini (which uses an OEM version of such a card) is greater than the retail price of the iPod Mini. The $20 engraving, which actually is about what you'd pay at your local mall, is where they make some margins back since it's less expensive if it is part of the assembly process. The $40 headphones? There are some decent margins there, but considering similar (quality and design) headphones from Sony are about $35, not as much as you might think. Still, the accessories and addons, and of course the iTunes store, are where the money comes from.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[MrAl]

I disagree with your assessment.

If Cadillac's ran on something other than common gasoline, which you then had to pay more for and could only get at a few select gas stations, then maybe your analogy would be correct.

The Mac's biggest issue is a prohibitive cost of entry and maintenance - and I'm not talking about expensive hardware. To make the switch you're forced to to buy software that will only be transferable to another Mac. If something comes out for a Windows PC only (and considering their marketshare I'd imagine there's more than a few programs that fit this description) and there's no Mac equiv, then you're stuck.

If I get a PC and decide to upgrade or buy new I don't have to worry about high costs of the upgrade. If you buy a Mac then you have to make a big initial investment that sticks you on the Mac path unless you want to outlay the same large investment to switch. Considering the shrinking market share of the Mac, this just isn't good business.

But what do I know... I run BeOS so I guess I like being stuck with dead-end software. :) For what it's worth, I have a Mac and I really like OSX but I can't see myself switching exclusively until Apple decides they want to compete more on the low-end scale of computing.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I'll bet you're a real buzz kill at parties.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

For one, it is worth noting that the retail price of a compact flash card with the same capacity of the iPod Mini (which uses an OEM version of such a card) is greater than the retail price of the iPod Mini.

Thank you for being delusional, but trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. The Ipod mini uses a hard disk.

Next caller, please?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if you consider having the EU flip you off and selling non-existent software good business, then, yes, I guess you are right.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[TheRaven64]

I prefer the line from Blake's 7:

`I plan to live forever. Or die trying.'

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[duffbeer703]

The key word is "lower" margin. (ie 40% margins are great, 20% are good)

Apple makes obscene profit margins on the rest of its hardware, while making traditional consumer-electronics margins on the iPod.

Remember also that Apple has all sorts of overhead. They need to keep OSX current, they develop their own software and must spend R&D money to improve their hardware... all to sell a few computers.

Contrast this to Dell. They do no R&D... they assemble.

Sun lived on Apple's business model for years, and look where it brought them. When was the last time you bought a Sun Workstation?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

'Cadillac' here is intended as an adjective for 'expensive, luxury stuff'.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[ObiWanKenblowme]

Loosing market share and shrinking margins is usually a pretty sure sign a company is in decline.

Losing market share is actually not a pretty sure sign a company is in decline. Market share is only a ratio of the number of your products sold to the total products sold in a market. You can sell 10 widgets one year and 100 the next and still lose market share if UltraCompuMegaCorp's widget sales go from 20 to 2000 in the same amount of time.

Whether a company makes a profit, however, is a pretty good indicator, and it's something Apple has been able to do for the last several years. I'll believe Apple is dying when I see a big "going out of business sale" graphic on apple.com.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Ummon_i]

Apple would be to computers what cadillac is to cars only if caddy's were only allowed on 10% of the roads and every time they broke down the drivers would scream that toyota was making them break.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[amRadioHed]

FYI, that joke should be attributed to Steven Wright.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[KarmaMB84]

How do they know what hardware plays well together in order to reduce tech support calls? It would be foolish if they didn't spend tons of money and time on figuring out what does and does not play well together. I doubt they just order a bunch of hardware, slap Dell logos on all of it and throw it in a case and say "Dude, you got a Dell!".

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[MesiahTaz]

Dell assembles. Sure. They're also uber cut-throat on the prices. I doubt their margin is terribly high. They survive on volume.

Sun and Apple's business models are vastly different to mention their equipment and strategies. It's not a valid comparison.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[smellygeek]

I think the pronouncers are just bitter towards apples which lead to the fall of Adam. They're just trying to return the favor.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Roger that. Only in America can we judge that a company selling a profitable product is a non-viable entity. This only means that we are used to Wall Street declaring a company dead if they made 6% this year instead of the 9% that their analysts predicted.

I'm sure that Steve Jobs wallpapers his office with all of the predictions of Apple's demise. If we keep going like that, we'll give him enough to wallpaper all of Apple's offices.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[bluethundr]

No no! It's true! I have a sign right here a guy I used to know grabbed right from the front door of One Infinite Loop!It reads "Going out of Business! Everything must go! Up to 50% off BRAND NEW INSTOCK Macintosh II, IIx, IIcx, Mac Plus, Mac 512, Apple II, Apple III cpus and the BRAND NEW IN STOCK Apple Laserwriter!" I didn't think to keep it mylar, and it's a little yellowed and the edges are curling up a bit, showing a bit of wear. At one point I think I might have spilled coffee on it.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[FroMan]

NNNOOOOOO!!!!!!

I didn't see Microsoft in that list! AAAAAAAAHAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Codifex Maximus]

Heh... yeah. Don't ya hate how that Blakes 7 show died? Kinda ironic isn't it?

Codifex

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

I am amazed at how quickly some media outlets are saying that the iPod is not leading to Mac sales. Many PC owners just got iPods for xmas many more just recieved minis about a month ago. Freakin relax and give people a little time to fall in love with the little thing. If sales of macs doesn't increase in a year then I will worry that the iPod theory not working.

Also, Apple has diversified significantly since 1999 they are a big software (FCP, iLife, OSX, etc.) and Services (.Mac) company now because of these other flows of cash they have been able to lower thier margins on hardware.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Codifex Maximus]

G4? That's so last year. Go for a dual G5 Aluminum Cased Tower.

I wouldn't mind having one of them... now if I could just get past the one button mouse thing... :/

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't call him the Orkin man for nothing...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Codifex Maximus]

If there wasn't any money in portable music players then Microsoft wouldn't be getting into the game. It's probably just MS funded fud so people will buy MS new machine.

Well... there's my conspiracy theory for the day.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[stilwebm]

The Ipod mini uses a hard disk.

I compared it to the price of Microdrives and other compact flash form hard disks, not compact flash RAM. Sorry for the confusion. The drive inside is a 4GB Hitachi Microdrive.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[cptgrudge]

I think it's a quote from the American actor and comedian Steven Wright.

Some of his better known quotes are here.

My favorite has to be, "Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!"

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[rlanctot]

Didn't Apple just pay off it's last outstanding debt and is now debt free? Clearly they suck. Bad Steve, paying off your debts.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Big Sean O]

For someone so up on Apple stock, and with such a low user id, it's too bad you let a $20 replacement mouse stop you from experiencing nirvana...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[ztirffritz]

Just so you know, OS X, and OS 8 and 9 for that matter, support 2 and 3 button mouses (mice? Meese?). I agree that sticking to a 1 button mouse for the sake of tradition is stupid though. Having 2 buttons makes life so much easier. I just bought a cheap 3 button mouse and now use the old one as a paperweight. It looks cool. Better yet though, use the terminal window and unplug the mouse.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[geoffspear]

If Macs ran on something other than electricity from the socket on my wall, your first analogy would be apt.

If I buy a Porsche, I'm not going to whine that the addons cost more than they do for a Taurus.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Bander]

now if I could just get past the one button mouse thing

Yeah, I think the the fact that the default mouse has one button is lame, but people who prefer more buttons can certainly use them in OS-X. I plug a Logitech USB mouse with scroll wheel into my PowerBook, all three buttons work fine, and the scroll wheel works in every app.

If you're a Unix geek and you can afford one, or your work can afford one, the new PBs are the best notebooks around. The G5 towers are pretty swanky too.

-- Bander

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[SillyNickName4me]

Yeah, because Money magazine has some secret vendetta against Apple. They are secretly MS fanboyz!@#@# OMG teh suxor and all that crap.

And where exactly was I saying or even suggesting that? Matter of fact is that the death of Apple is predicted over and over, also by supposedly very reputable sources.

As long as Apple's actual results show a proffit, they are doing at least as good as the top of the rest, and a lot better then many in the IT business, so I don't see any reason to spell doom for Apple.

That doesn't mean that its stupid to discuss issues with itunes and the ipod tho, Apple itself is suggesting that that isn't entirely workign out as well as they hoped and thought it would, but I seriously doubt that that has anything to do with life/death for Apple really.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[dankney]

You couldn't GIVE a Caddy away in a lot of places. The same cannot be said for PowerMac G5s.

I would disagree. There are a lot of loyal Microsoft fans out there too. Not to mention gamers. Hand a gamer a G5 and tell them it had to be their primary system and they'd kick you in the shins.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[fyonn]

assuming you don't know. mac's only come with a one button mouse doesn't stop you using a multi-button mouse with it. I use a 5 button m$ intellimouse explorer with wheel and you know what, I'm actively using all the buttons.

without any extra software install, left, right and wheel do exactly what you think they would. wheel click is paste in some apps (like terminal and prolly X11) and buttons 4 and 5 can be used for expose.

with something like usb overdrive instyalled then you can map any button to a variety of functions so I have middle click as paste in all apps, button 4 as copy and button 5 as expose - all windows.

makes for a nice mousing environment

dave

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[jkabbe]

If you bothered to try and understand what you are writing about you would already know that Compact Flash is an interface

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Mr. Troll]

Umm....

If UltraCompuMegaCorp is selling 2000 widgets and you are only selling 100....you don't see something inherently bad happening there? With larger production, their cost per unit will decrease, advert $ can increase, name recog will rise, more R&D money and so on...

Loss of market share sucks. Big time. That is exactly why it is so often cited as such an important metric.

With a few (arguable) exceptions, niche products usually die when overcome by the industry at large. And cost is the reason....

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[netglen]

It boggles my mind when I read things like that. My landlord was telling me how the company that he works for was going into dark/lean times. In the past it had record highs of 850 million in profits. Last year they only earned 530 million in profits. He makes it seem like everybody should dump their stocks and start looking for another job. Sheesh.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[nattt]

That was one of Villa's lines. But I still like his request for "100 virgins in red fur uniforms - I'll call them Villa's Royal Mounties" from the episode Orbit.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because Apple is only allowed on 10% of the Internet, and Cadillacs drivers install a lot of Toyota parts in their cars.

Oh, wait.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Krondor]

Contrast this to Dell. They do no R&D... they assemble.

This is a great point, but it's not longer true. It was true several years ago, however. Dell now does a good deal of in house R&D. They used to buy laptops from Sager and rebadge them as Dell. Now their laptops are designed in house and a good deal of engineering goes into them. Take this for example.

With the Dell Axim, their Ipod clone, their line of custom cases, laptops, and even proposed standards (dell is pushing for a standard port for upgradeable graphics cards in laptops, and is developing a solution in house for it). They are way past their assembler days of yore.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the last time you bought a Sun Workstation?

Last week, we bought over one million dollars worth of Sun equipment. I'll bet you didn't expect that answer, which is why you asked slashdot readers (who typically by commodity home computers to tinker with) when they last bought enterprise computers.

When was the last time you asked as relevant question?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Zareste]

Yeah, seems like the writers of these articles are just playing an old trick to get everyone's attention: Take a few meaningless facts, twist them around and blow them out of proportion and viola; you have a company-destroying disaster that will impact the world, and oh gee, you were on top of it from the moment it never started happening.

Nevermind the huge rise in government and corporate support for Apple's computers, as well as the even brighter outlook for these systems; let's pay all the reader's attention to the little iPod gadgets and see what we can make people believe. Oh no! Company A is doomed because they're not selling enough of a measily little product!

I guess it's better than frightening people into submission using the dirty-bomb scare of last year, but that's not saying a whole loe. I'm beginning to question the credibility of the journalists here.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[southpolesammy]

Keith Richards doesn't even need money. His brain has been dead for years but the drugs are keeping his corpse animated enough to fool most people...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[seanadams.com]

When was the last time you bought a Sun Workstation?

About six years ago, when Sun was still somewhat competive in price / performance / quality.

Apple on the other hand, still makes good equipment that's worth the $$$.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[duffbeer703]

Ooooohhh... give the troll a cookie.

Try reading Sun's annual report sometime. You might come to the realization that your company is in the minority by far.

Sun's cash cow back in the day was the $10,000 pizza-box workstations that they sold to universities and companies. The market has completely vaporized expect in the minds of /. trolls.

Hell -- even SUN abandoned that market. Most Sun people are using Sun Ray terminals last I heard.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Moofie]

Don't be silly. If Apple had kept the iPod Mac only, Money would be able to crow about how stupid they were for limiting their scope to an infinitesimally tiny market.

Money Magazine understands the computer industry the way I understand finance. That's to say, not even in the teensiest bit at all.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

No offense, but Cadillacs aren't that good at all. I think BMW would be a much better, specifically the m series.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[alex_tibbles]

the question is then: who the hell is going to do the R&D if all the Apple's, Sun's etc. go out of business, leaving only the Dell's left?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[johneee]

Dell has revolutionized the computer industry as much or more (arguably) than Apple.

Not with their computers, but with their business models.

They invented the concept of JIT inventory for the industry, of high-volume custom configured machines, of pushing margins to the floor, of cutting costs, etc.

The industry, or at least the consumer, holds a big debt to Dell for transforming the way we buy computers.

Of course, they suck, but oh well...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, bubba, I don't know. Why don't you head on over to the CompactFlash (yes, no space, since you're trying to be pedantic) Association site, and check it out for yourself. In case you're too thick to manage, though, I'll spell it out:

CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.

Gee, does it sound like they believe that a four gig hard disk qualifies as a compact flash card? Let's see... they said that they're solid state... no moving parts... and better than magnetic disk drives.

What is this, the ignorance parade?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Hypocritical Guy]

I would disagree. There are a lot of loyal Microsoft fans out there too. Not to mention gamers. Hand a gamer a G5 and tell them it had to be their primary system and they'd kick you in the shins.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Gamers are fucking homos. That's why they are called "gaymers". Duh. Let them fucking rot.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Joe5678]

Remember also that Apple has all sorts of overhead. They need to keep OSX current...

I don't know if keeping OSX current counts as overhead when you charge $130 for each 10.x release (especially when upgrading is the only way to fix certain bugs)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[mrm677]

If anybody needs anectodal evidence that Sun hardware is more reliable than Dell, read this thread about the problems photo.net is having by switching from Sun to Dell.

Here is a good quote: "The E450 certainly has been, staying up for nearly a year at a time. The Dell has had more crashes in the first month than the E450 has in the last two years."

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[mydigitalself]

really...
if i remember correctly, the iPod initially DID NOT support the windows platform. it was a decision made later to milk the iPod cash-cow when they realised (funnily enough) that people weren't running out and buying mac's to hook up to their ipods.

so i believe that the iPod has been successful in a way that Apple DID NOT intend and i think the authors of the article would be happier if apple had sold 1 million iBook's shortly after the release of the iPod...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[dasmegabyte]

Is this alternate dimensions called "India?"

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

but alteast he got some pussy afterwards, how about you?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[TitusC3v5]

Apple - Unsuccessfully going out of business since 1995.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[russellh]

Hey, until we use cars to create intellectual property, I say we kill the car analogy.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Moofie]

It's NOT for the sake of tradition. It's because their user tests show that it is EASIER TO USE for neophytes.

And everybody who is not a neophyte can buy a cheap USB mouse. You can get them in a freakin' box of Cheerios.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[markh100]

Unfortunately, the mac notebook still only has one button on the touchpad. Any time I pick up my fiances laptop, that fact alone makes me scream in frustration. Until they switch to a modern mouse by default, I won't even consider a mac.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[The Lynxpro]

"They invented the concept of JIT inventory for the industry, of high-volume custom configured machines, of pushing margins to the floor, of cutting costs, etc."

So, you are saying Dell is the Wal-Mart of the computer industry, right?

I've never been a fan of them. In pre-assembled computers from a "direct" manufacturer, I always favored Gateway until they dumped AMD and went 100% Intel. Of course, that was like three business model changes ago for the company [Gateway]... :)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[The Lynxpro]

"I don't know if keeping OSX current counts as overhead when you charge $130 for each 10.x release (especially when upgrading is the only way to fix certain bugs)"

Ever heard of Windows 98 Second Edition? WindowsME? WindowsXP Reloaded? Its not like Apple has a monopoly on the behavior you speak of.

And Apple could easly do away with the 10.x releases and go to OS X 11, 12, 13, etc. in the naming scheme but somehow I think they are saving that for major revisions.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Rude-Boy]

There is NO way those in-ear headphones are costing them even close to $40 to make. They sound absolutely dreadful.

Apple should have teamed up with Etymotic and made some high quality iPod in-ear headphones.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[darc]

Optionally, they can just have their legal department file a temporary injunction against the universe ending.

They DO have more lawyers than the universe has employees, they're that big.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[The Unabageler]

honda sold 313,159 civics in 2002. Porsche sold a total of 54,234 cars. Does that mean a Porsche is a bad car that is going away? no, sportscars have always had a lower market share than daily drivers. But the market is always there.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Bombcar]

You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser.

It exists.....

But it is alt.total-loser. :)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell's margins are actually pretty healthy. They can out-price anyone else because their logistics keep their costs per PC a lot lower than the rest of the industry. Basically, they sell computers cheaper and make more money off them than their competitors.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jaysyn]

Thank you Tyler Durden ;)

(On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone will drop to zero.)

Jaysyn

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[RevAaron]

It may sound retarded, but that's how capitalism works. It means nothing that you continually bring in some fixed amount of profit- bringing in 1 billion dollars of profit a year sounds amazing- but unless your profit numbers are GROWING then, according to capitalist economics, you are stagnant and dying. Capitalism means constant growth, which is by definition, wholly unsustainable.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Sloppy]

Good thing they didn't. That would have been a crippling bombshell.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jaysyn]

I love Macs,(sans single button mice) and was thinking of making my next (future) notebook an iBook, but if what you say is true, then I guess I can forget about that.

Jaysyn

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

What is your market share? You are a niche product. You are worthless in your own world view. Have fun.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

When you lose market share, you lose all sorts of power over your suppliers and resellers, are less able to see yourself through the lean times than your competitors, and all sorts of other problems that aren't low profit margins but demonstrate future problems.

The comparison to Porsche isn't correct. Porsche has a clearly defined target market and they (mostly, stupid Cayenne) stick to that market. Apple, under Jobs, is going from a market where they had considerable clout (graphics, designers, etc.) to the normal PC market. Their strategy to capture regular PC users can't be going too well if their market share is declining so significantly.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[dasmegabyte]

The main reason Apple is constantly reported as "dying" is that same reason that so many of us are captivated by the company:

We have no idea what they're up to.

An ordinary tech company, as soon as something goes wrong, they start firing people and puffing out their chest about strategic alliances and new products that might come out some day, maybe.

Apple, on the other hand, doesn't tell us what they're up to until they're pretty much done with it. And then when they tell us, they do so in a way that impresses the shit out of us. We don't see the broken-ass beta version for six months before the final...we only see the final (which may have some bugs, or issues, but is definitely usable). Their R&D department is one of the most locked down in any industry. They don't issue press releases or hints the second they come up with an idea. Instead, they embark on internal analysis and testing.

The economic pundits of the world look at Apple and see their tight lipped R&D as "no ideas on the horizon." Which is ludicrous. Do these people think that iTMS, the iPod, the G4, OSX, just materialized out of thin air at MacWorld? Every time somebody's predicted Apple's imminant failure "unless they do something," they did something. Anybody who still makes predictions on a company that's proven so versatile and resourceful is a goddamn moron. Apple's successes were not ACCIDENTS.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[cens0r]

Those two car's are not in the same market however.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Given that it is a Money article, I think they have an interest not necessarily in the products, but the profits those products may or may not bring to the stock's value or as dividends.

I am guessing that the writer probably wouldn't mind iPod being Mac-only to try to drive computer sales, but I think that would be stupid. I think it would only create resentment against Apple and severely limit iPod sales.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[marklar1]

They do run on something other than gasoline...it's called a "UNIX", and is getting more interoperable with LINUX suff "X11" and FINK all the time.

One might argue, and certainly gnome and kde fans will disagree, that they have the best solution out there with a full powered command line, full line of consumer oriented (an polished) multimedia interfaces (Garage Band, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD) etc. etc.

Then look at the climate of MS haters...governments and cities looking for alternatives...it won't always be open source, as that too has it's limitations, and costs, for we all know open source isn't "Free $$".

Apple had some failures to modernize, and between Copland, Be, etc... I truly had doubts that they'd get their shit together, but time and again they've suprised me...past performance is no indicator of future success, for Apple, or Microsoft. That being said, in the end, I think the software (OS and apps) direction they took was fantastic, and the consumer end of things they're getting into shows tremendous success.

Apple doesn't need to be Microsoft. They are not successful if they have a certain market %, any more than you are I are only successful if we turn into a famous programmer, astronomer, athlete, etc...they are successful in their own right as long as they are a profitable self-sustaining company....which if you look at the financials, they absolutely are.

Who can guess how they will expand in the future? The next Sony, a Sony partner, or, if the shit hits the fan, and they can no longer be a "hardware" company, they may always have another go with software and just release the OS for sale on X86....but that's another story for another day.

Gotta get some work done.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[mjj12]

Only 1995? I read my first "Apple is dying, blah blah blah story in 1981, which was three years before the mac. It was the classic "Apple 2 sales will shrink because of IBM's greater market share and greater resources, and Apple's limited ability to produce another computer that would be competitive in the market". I have been hearing this ever since, and it has always sounded *exactly the same*. Apple is in a stronger position right now than it has been for quite a while, and its brand is suddenly valuable again. We will see what it does with this, but like everyone else I will just yawn when I see a headline like this.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[jkabbe]

Yes it is an ignorance parade. That site was last updated 3 1/2 years ago. And if you read the first paragraph which is about the Compact Flash specifications you will see that it is an interface. Then they go on to talk about how the current (at the time) crop of CF cards are designed. So what? Sure, the name Compact Flash comes from the fact that the first devices made were flash devices. Why? Because no one had made a HD that small. However that doesn't change the fact that Compact Flash defines an interface spec and not a storage medium. Look at the actual spec and you will see this is true. But why should you care? You're just a stupid anony-troll.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[The Unabageler]

like many others have said, it does not feel like they're pushing the mainstream, more like they're pushing into the geek market. Who told the pinks to buy computers in the first place? the geeks. Are you saying we don't have considerable clout in terms of computer purchasing decisions? Once macs are entrenched in the geek world, it's a short hop for our mom's to be following suit so they can keep the free tech support.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest census forcasts predict whites will be a minority in the US by 2050. If that isn't death, I don't know what is.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Dr. Smeegee]

Yerp. Remember "Cactus Ed" Abbey's famous quote: "Growth for Growth's sake is the ideaology of the cancer cell."

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[IntlHarvester]

Losing market share is actually not a pretty sure sign a company is in decline. ... Whether a company makes a profit, however, is a pretty good indicator

Not necessarily. You can be sure that OpenVMS is very profitable for HP -- but hardly anyone would say that the VAX/VMS market is healthy. Instead, HP is farming it's legacy base for as much money as possible until the loyal users finally say "uncle" and HP can kill the platform.

Now the question is Apple just soaking it's traditional "hard core" user base, or are they really interested in growing the Mac platform? Their current line of consumer computers is so overpriced and uninspiring, it seems like they are doing the former (for now).

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Geoff-with-a-G]

Yes, but the "people have said this before and it hasn't happened yet, therefore it isn't happening now" argument is also avoiding logical discussion of the topic.

The original post doesn't refer to any discrepancies in the financial analysis, or even attempt to make predictions about the effectiveness of new Apple business initiatives, it just makes the logically invalid (though fairly relevant) point that these death-of-Apple predictions are common and thusfar inaccurate.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[jsebrech]

The only lasting thing that comes to mind us humans seem to be able to build in society is religion. Maybe if IBM became a religion they could live forever.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[System.out.println()]

I'm sure that Steve Jobs wallpapers his office with all of the predictions of Apple's demise.

So.... who wants to photochop a picture of Steve leaning back in his chair, with these things papered around his office? :D

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[kefa]

That'll be because at today's exchange rate a penny *is* worth 2 cents!

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Azghoul]

One could argue that Dell and Apple are not in the same market.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. A "Compact Flash Card" is not the same as a hard disk with a Compact Flash interface. Sorry, it's just not. Get over yourself.

Oh, and the compact flash site has been updatated as recently as 3/17/04, according to the main page. Is it 2008 already?

But good job calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll, no matter how much evidence they bring to the table. You're a real pro.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[piznut]

In order to make this analogy even more accurate, you would need to weld the hood shut (speaking about the hardware here, not the software).

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[iamacat]

Are you sure about that?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[shotfeel]

It's because their user tests show that it is EASIER TO USE for neophytes. ..and young kids and anyone with any kind of motor difficulty...

The simplest way to say it is that Apple's goal is to sell the easiest to use computer in the world. The one-button mouse is the easiest mouse to use. If you can't use a one-button mouse, you aren't going to be able to use a two-or-more-button mouse either.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[ElaborateCalculator]

Would the authors of the article be happier if the iPod was instead limited to the Apple niche?

Guess they're damned if they do, damned if they don't...
1. Windows/Mac compatible: nothing to drive the average Windows user to purchase Apple hardware
2. Mac only: most sales will be to Mac users/owners, who are likely to be purchasing Apple hardware anyway...
I've just bought (literally an hour ago) an iPod for my wife- there's no way she would have wanted one if it wasn't Windows compatible

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

What have you seen to make you think constant growth is "by definition" unsustainable? Where in the past has economic growth not been positive over the long term?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

What's logically invalid? There have been many claims that the death of Apple is imminent without the death of Apple happening. This has now happened enough times for me to see the causal link between "Apple failing" and "someone announcing that Apple is about to fail" as being very tenuous at best. So when a new such announcement is made I see this as (1) not being evidence for the demise of Apple and (2) evidence for the lack of trustworthiness of the author. So it is quite rational for someone to dismiss such claims even without examining them. What's "logically invalid" about that? It's just a simple application of Bayes' theorem.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[shotfeel]

Apple makes obscene profit margins on the rest of its hardware

What exactly do you consider to be an obscene profit margin? I didn't think Apple's profit margins were any greater than other computer manufacturers.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[brlancer]

Yes, yes, yes, Apple's about to bite to dust, we've been hearing that for years.

They have been saying this for years about lots of outsiders and upstarts who bucked convention. Sun has been on the verge of failure for 20 years, Linux for 10, BSD et al.

Who are They? Opposing business interests or the media pundits who have the same stakes. Media has stopped being about objective reporting: everyone wants to be the first to break the big story, they want to provide information (speculation) the other guy doesn't have, and they want to be right. What happens? They make spurious statements in support of heavy players. Why? Not because the heavy player has a better product or model, but because heavy players have more money, they're more established, and by virtue of inertia tend to last longer than upstarts.

Media schmucks are as guilty of FUD as anyone.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[cft_128]

I doubt they just order a bunch of hardware, slap Dell logos on all of it and throw it in a case and say "Dude, you got a Dell!"

You haven't ordered a dell recently have you?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[MoneyT]

Look into a little piece of software called SideTrack and all your worries of only one button will be washed away.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Geoff-with-a-G]

Based on the fact that old announcements of Apple's pending demise turned out to be false, you reach the conclusion that this undermines the arguments and trustworthiness of the person who is now predicting their demise. That's not a logical conclusion, it's an emotional one.

If, hypothetically, someone was to discover that G5 chips self-destruct after one year of use, that fact is not made any less significant by the volume of false doomsaying that preceded it. The argument stands or falls on the truth of its statements, not the credibility of people who made similar arguments in the past.

That's classic ad hominem.

I agree that someone announcing Apple is about to fail does not prove that Apple is failing, but neither do previous false predictions disprove the current one.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Phurd Phlegm]

Over an infinite amount of time all these things will one day end. It's a definite and provable truth.

I believe this is known as proof by assertion. I guess I think it's overwhelmingly probable, but proving anything to be "TRVTH" [note clever "carved-in-stone"-look letters] seems to be provably impossible.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, beautiful!

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

It's because their user tests show that it is EASIER TO USE for neophytes.

So newbies graduate to mice with more buttons? What happens when the newbie learns enough to realize that he has enough knowledge to build his own computer from components and be completely satisfied with it? Do you think he'll buy another Apple, or is he going to graduate to using a real computer?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[imr]

I'm sure that Steve Jobs wallpapers his office with all of the predictions of Apple's demise.
I bet he uses more soul friendly stuff for his office, and keeps this kind of paper for his toilets.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jaysyn]

Yeah, I guess if I'm going to shell out +/-$2000 for a laptop, it won't kill me to spend another $30 to get the trackpad working the way I want. I just hate having to jump thru hoops. The trackpad should be modular, it would be nice if they offered a 2+ button upgrade for it. I wouldn't even mind (much) paying extra.

Jaysyn

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[duffbeer703]

Their gross margins are high for computers and probally 25-50% for monitors/accessories/etc.

Apple loses on overhead. They are always buying back too much excess inventory from retailers, they bear the brunt of hardware & software development costs.

PC makers exist in a more highly competitive environment... for PC makers that are in the black , gross margins of 5% are good. IBM typically loses money on PC sales, although they are improving. Dell is the best PC manufacturing operation by far and squeezes another 1.5%.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! Despite your indefensible views on American party politics, it turns out you're actually a smart guy, otherwise. Here's a link to SideTrack: click.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[forii]

Sun and Apple's business models are vastly different to mention their equipment and strategies. It's not a valid comparison.

Except that they are both companies that develop their own proprietary hardware and operating systems. That's a big similarity. Apple, like Sun, depends on niche markets, and both are finding those niche markets to be shrinking over time. There are quite a few valid comparisons to be made.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Feral Bueller]

Maybe if IBM became a religion they could live forever.

Then Apple has nothing to worry about.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[RevAaron]

What have you seen to make you think constant growth is "by definition" unsustainable? Where in the past has economic growth not been positive over the long term?

The resources available to those of us on Earth is finite. If you assume we get some sort of intersteller space drive, you still are stuck with the size of this galaxy, and if you've the ability to leave that- the universe itself is finite.

Early on, having a fast-growth capitalist-style economy is good, I don't doubt that. It brings growth fast. But that cannot be sustained indefinately. What makes you think it could be?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Frobozz0]

And why is THAT bad? Being "stuck" on the Apple path means you'll have no viruses, more security, MORE flexibility for open standards, a better GUI, and BSD UNIX.

It's no more expensive to get started, but it's maintenence cost is FAR below the Wintel world.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[sonpal]

Let's look at Sun first:

1. Sun is not coming out with any innovative products.

Java is about the only cool thing to come out of Sun recently, and they haven't figured out how to make a profit from that.

2. Sun does not seem to have a clear business strategy.

Sun hasn't figured out how to respond to the threat from commodity hardware and they haven't figured out how to deal with Open Source.

3. Sun does not listen to their customers.

There a lot of people that wanted Sun hardware with out Solaris and a lot of people that wanted Solaris without the hardware. Sun forced people to buy both, and lost money from that... selling the hardware without Solaris was a no brainer, and selling Solaris for x86 was another no brainer. That, and the pricing for Solaris used to be too high... I mean, it's software... every copy you sell free money. After you've made the initial R&D costs back, you want to try and saturate the market with competitive pricing... they didn't do that.

4. Sun does not know which battles to not fight.

It was clear several years ago that Sparc was not going to be able to beat x86 in the long haul. It was it also clear last year that IBM G5 processors were going to kick butt, and IBM was looking for buyers. If Sun wanted to not support x86 and at the same time save money on R&D, they should have killed Sparc, purchased G5 processors from IBM for their boxes and ported Solaris to G5 would not be a big deal. IBM is going to replace AIX with Linux anyway, but Sun could offer Solaris as a replacement for AIX for all those people that wanted a UNIX derived from AT&T and not BSD.

Now let's look at Apple.

1. Apple has lots of innovative products.

The iPod on the hardware side, their dual G5 processor boxes, Firewire, their iLife series of apps.

2. Apple has a clear business strategy

They want to make cool, friendly, exclusive, high-margin products for the consumer market.

3. Apple listens to its customers

If there is a vacuum (in software) and someone else is not filling that vacuum or charging exorbitant amounts, Apples fills it with its software products. The keep making the UI easier to use and they take suggestions. And their pricing is reasonable for the features that you get.

4. Apple knows which battles to not fight.

IBM is fighting their processor battle with Intel. They didn't design the electronics for the iPod (although they did dictate the specs). They did the stuff that they were good at - the UI and the software.

Sun and Apple are very different companies with very different business models and attitudes.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[jo_ham]

Expensive upgrade path?

That one died a long time ago - the RAM, HD, optical drive, graphics card, peripherals, plugs, cables, ethernet ports, and so on are all pretty standard.

The only difference between a tower Mac (G4 or G5) and a PC when it boils down to it is the motherboard and the CPU, but how is this different to buying a PC board that supports a P4 or an AMD chip - you usually have to replace the board if you want to up the speed of the CPU unless you stick with a compatible form factor.

The eMac and iMac aren't easily upgradable, but they're not designed to be.

The iBook and Powerbook are both fairly easy to upgrade in terms of new hard drive and optical drive - both parts are standard laptop components used in PC laptops.

It may cost more to get into the Mac platform (I agree, all new software is expensive) but once you're on it doesn't cost a huge amount more to keep up to date with the hardware compared to updating a PC. The long working life of Macs also helps here - from the entirely unscientific anecdotes of mine, I've dealt with a fair number of Macs and PCs and the Macs tend to have at least twice the useful life before needing a hardware upgrade.

When the PC needs upgrading, I can just sling FreeBSD on it and use it as a server, but it means a new machine is needed. The Macs I have just keep going - running OS X here on a battered old G3 which is ambling along nicely.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[marklar1]

This article is along the lines of what I posted above:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7464 &m ode=thread&order=0

one computer, Unix, Linux, Mac consumer friendly GUI, win compatability (built in compatability tools to read/exchange in OS) as well as the Virtual PC tools....plus plus plus.

It will be more interesting as their servers mature, clustering evolves, etc...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[alexq]

Actually, a number of those are in George Carlin's "Braindroppings" book, some pretty close to verbatim. (not 100% sure that Steven Wright hasn't said them as well, mind you)

On his web page, here, Carlin has a bit about internet forwards/sites which misattribute quotations and such. Apparently it's quite rampant.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[MrAl]

It's not bad until you can't find Windows equivalents for OSX.

Believe me, I understand this better than you can imagine being a BeOS devotee. At the very least, however, I can run Windows on the same hardware as BeOS. This is a liberty Mac users don't have.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[slyborg]

We don't see the broken-ass beta version for six months before the final...we only see the final (which may have some bugs, or issues, but is definitely usable)

Uh, dude, you ever hear of Mac OS X 10.0? It sure impressed the hell out of me that they SOLD the broken-ass beta version.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Mainly, improving technology (e.g. irrigation, GM foods) that allows us to do more with less. But I need to amend my former statement. Even if positive growth is unsustainable, that doesn't preclude capitalism. For example, real estate on the island of Manhattan is severely limited, but land ownership is still governed according to centuries-old notions of property rights--protection of capital, in other words. Capitalism.

I don't know, it just seems to me you're not thinking things through economically or scientifically (hell, philosophically either). Capitalism is not going to implode upon itself. Mankind is not doomed.

(Before you ask, no--I'm not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. But I do read the Economist.)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

holy shit..that has to be a top ten slashdot comment of the year.

i'm serious. fucking hilarious....it was the perfect reply to a perfect reply.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[ruiner5000]

You seem have to forgotten Sun's new line of Opteron based servers. That is listening to customers. Sun uses plenty of CPUs from AMD and Intel. Why use the G5 when you have Opteron which means you don't have to port at all? Apple still doesn't have a real 64 bit OS. How many years till that comes? Apple lied repeatedly about G5 performance. How do you think IBM likes that?

http://www.sun.com/servers/blades/

http://www.sun.com/servers/computegrid/

Wow, dual Opteron and Red Hat or SuSE. Sun really needs the G5 which Apple "designed".

AMD is the company primarily battling Intel. Intel is not big iron. Itanium is a failure. Opteron is a success, and that is why Sun, IBM, HP, and plenty of smaller server vendors are using it.

Opteron saves Sun's ass while eating some of their SPARC server sales, but that is necessary for them to survive much in the same way Apple had to switch from Moto to IBM for CPUs to survive. Funny that despite how different they are, both are now forced to switch CPUs to save themselves. And these CPUs happen to both possibly come out of IBM's Fishkill fab.

Regardless Apple is stuck in 2% marketshareland forever unless they bring back clones and/or release an x86 version of OSX. Jobs decision to kill clones and not use BEOS caused this downfall. If not we could today see Powercomputing and Dell fighting for top marketshare spots in a Williamson County battle for land to put new offices up, and Apple really being relavent in current OS marketshare instead of now being unable to push anything in the industry than what the next Ipod clone might look like, or causing a few Asian case manufacturers to try and make a PC case look a like for girls and metrosexuals to enjoy.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

i dunno, after close to 10 years in development, QuickTime STILL hasnt achieved usability.

like many things apple, its so flashy & pretty that it just gets in the way.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[danielsfca2]

> The $20 engraving, which actually is about what you'd pay at your local mall, is where they make some margins back

Wow. I try not to be harsh on /. anymore, so I'll try to be nice. You're incorrect. The engraving is free. Try it yourself. Big margin there, eh!

> ...the iTunes store, are where the money comes from.

Once again, you're wrong.

Next time consult the Internet before posting. You'd think that'd be easy enough seeing as how you're already on the Internet to post.

Oh, but I agree with you that accessories are profitable.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

BS - their limited 20 year old tests suggest this. Let me guess, you are one of 1000 M.A.C. fags who still says it is easier to hit control while hitting the mouse, right? What a man-size load of crap.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you're avoiding logical discussion of the topic altogether.
haha.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[LaCosaNostradamus]

You're absolutely right: it does sound retarded.

And the reason for that is: it is retarded.

I abide by the sustainable definition of Capitalism: an economy in which skilled men have savings and homes. (A definition lifted essentially straight out of the writings of Elbert Hubbard.) All other productive activity can be fallout from that state. Men with skills, savings and homes are marked entrepreneurs.

In your example, bringing in $1 billion yearly may not please the analysts, but when you take that billion dollars to buy equipment, hire people and to sell some product, you find that your money's as green as anyone else's. A billion stagnant dollars buys as much as a billion growth dollars.

The "Capitalism" of unsustainability needs to die off, before we start making people die off in great numbers instead.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[dasmegabyte]

I used 10.0 from day one. Most of the macs at my old job STILL use 10.0, with no problems other than the fact that they can't use the absolute latest builds of Java.

Never was it "broken" beyond what's broken in any OS. It worked fine, did what it said it would. In fact, for everything that was written to run natively, it was great. The emulated stuff worked fairly well, too. Photoshop for OS 9 worked better for me under Classic Mode than it did under 9 (mostly due to all the crappy extensions I had to pollute my memory with in 9 that I didn't need for Classic Mode). Subsequent OS updates have been released to add features, speed up the user interface or reorganize difficult settings.

Yes, some apps crashed under 10. But many apps crashed under 9, too. And under 10, it was much less likely that a crashed app -- even one in classic mode -- would bring down your machine. During my time using 10.0, I saw two kernel panics. I guess I might call that beta. But one of them was on a graphite iMac that three weeks later didn't work at all...so, you know, I shrug.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[MrResistor]

There's no money in consumer electronics, period. It's a "we have to sell 100M of these to break even on R&D" kind of business. Margins might still be a bit better than that on portable mp3 players, but they won't be for long, and the more players there are in the market the faster margins will drop.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[soft_guy]

I'll make you a deal. Since all that's stopping you is the mouse, you buy a G5 and send me a copy of the receipt and I will personally buy you a two button mouse.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[oconnorcjo]

Loss of market share sucks. Big time. That is exactly why it is so often cited as such an important metric.

Rolls Royce probably has a small market share but nice profit margins. Profit Margins can be much more important than market share. And personally, I would rather be in a niche market with high margins than a big business with low margins. Lots of businesses with low margins go out "of business" but "large margin" products are a god send... the problem is that when others notice the large margin you are making, they want a piece of the action.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[johneee]

We can argue the analogies if you want, or the value of the machines themselves, but the point is that they've had a profound effect on the industry - pretty much everyone follows their lead with respect to how they sell machines now (even Apple).

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[BorgCopyeditor]

But it is alt.total-loser

Well, in the Poet's song, that scans better, anyway ("YOU'RE an ALT-dot-TO-tal LO-ser"). :)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[multiplexo]

Sun's cash cow back in the day was the $10,000 pizza-box workstations that they sold to universities and companies. The market has completely vaporized expect in the minds of /. trolls.

If you paid anything close to list price on Sun equipment at a university you're probably retarded. Sun would quote us these horrendous list prices and then start giving us all sorts of discounts, "Oh, you're a university, take 30 percent off. What, your University has a Sun service contract, take another 8 percent off? You say your sister is a left handed lesbian pipefitter with two dogs who lives in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska but who doesn't like Ani DiFranco? Take another 3 percent." Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Entropy2016]

"Even if the universe was going to end, IBM's R&D would probably to develop a method to transport itself to an alternate dimension."

I'm quite confident that before the universe collapses, we'll see the next coming of Steve Jobs, and he'll save the faithful by using his reality-distortion-field to shift everyone into another dimension.

He might even run into Durandal
"The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the universe, as inevitable as your own last breath.
And yet, there remains time to create, to create, and escape.
Escape will make me God."

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure I wanna be know as the kid who tagged his mom after the senior prom. But if thats your style, so be it.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[shokk]

"Ooo! Ooo! Justice department! We tried really hard this time, but Microsoft squashed us again with their Media product. Even Europe is sanctioning them for including their media software in the OS, so they are bad bad bad. They even bundle a file manager with Windows XP!! No matter what we do we cannot tread water higher than a 2% market share with our computer systems. Surely it cannot be our pathetically L33t attitude or our grossly overpriced hardware that we absolutely refuse to license to people who would turn us into an overnight success. We even embraced UNIX so that the Linux people might fork over some cash, but we found out they were still downloading free OS CDs to load on their cheap cheap cheap Windows capable systems. Hear that?!!? Windows-capable!!! Wha wha wha, please help us against Dell and Rio and Creative and all their MP3 and WMA evils, too. We even tried giving away free songs...everyone loves a song...some of those songs were even about children playing with puppies. If only you would help us get 1400% of the music player market by forcing people to buy our iPod product we could cover our sad system sales. And maybe if you subsidized us through the welfare program alongside milk and cheese, we could be a corporate megalith."

Give up, Apple, and start fertilizing the good earth. The iPod life support system is being unplugged in 3... 2... 1...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Andy_R]

Actually, the Honda NSX (possibly marketed in the US an an Acura?) is in direct competition with the 911, as sporty 2 seaters with simliar prices and 6cyl engines at the back. The 911 is kicking the NSX's ass sales-wise too.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[hc00jw]

Check out the Apple Death Knell Counter for links to many, many other articles, dating back to 1995, all of which have experts predicting that Apple is about to go bust.

and:

I'm sure that Steve Jobs wallpapers his office with all of the predictions of Apple's demise. If we keep going like that, we'll give him enough to wallpaper all of Apple's offices.

Amusingly, Steve Job's is the guy who made the 1995 prediction that Apple was going to die! Of course, he wasn't back at the company then... and he's obviously corrected everything he thought was wrong with it back then! ;-)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Because people don't eat "over the long term" -- they eat 3 times a day. If we are to be truly civilized, then perhaps we should come up with a social machine that doesn't run on Human blood, misery, forfeiture, evictions, bankruptcy and divorce.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Lars T.]

Is this why the quality of "DELL" laptops has gone down, because they now design them in house?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[cens0r]

But we were talking civics and 911s, not 911s and NSXs.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[linuxpyro]

Apple may very well die someday. But I'm not sure about iPods having anything to do with it. I think that Apple's going to die when Microsoft does. I don't want to start a flame war here, but if you think about it, Microsoft and Apple are very interdependent. Microsoft supplies Office for the Mac, while Apple provides Microsoft competition in the OS market. The failure of one company won't necessarily bring about the failure of the other, but when one dies, the other will have just about reached its end too. If someting (Linux?) dethrowns Microsoft, chances are it will have dethrowned Apple too. I don't know, it's just an idea.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[milkman_matt]

and even proposed standards (dell is pushing for a standard port for upgradeable graphics cards in laptops, and is developing a solution in house for it).

God that would be a beautiful thing.. lack of upgradable video cards was my ONLY gripe with laptops... In my lombard powerbook I don't care about the sound card, it's past good enough, the USB is fine as it is, the RAM and HDD are upgradable, as they should be... and all I've ever wanted to upgrade past the RAM and HDD has been the video card... If that were possible here it'd give my system another 2 or 3 years of life I think.

-matt

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[aftk2]

With the Dell Axim, their Ipod clone

Aah, Dell...where an iPod clone counts as R&D...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[arminw]

I'd like to see a list of computer jobs (NOT PROGRAMS) that cannot be done on a Mac running OSX. There may not be as many programs to do a given kind of task on a Mac than on a Wintel box, but other than certain certain specialized vertical apps specially written for Windows, anything one kind of computer can do, another can do as well, and in the case of a Mac, usually better.
The fact that there are thousands of viruses, worms and other malware to contend with on Windows, whereas, as far as I know there are ZERO instances of such crap for the Mac OSX, should be worth somthing to some users.
Don't come with "the reasons there are no viruses for the Mac .... etc..."
Who cares what the reasons are -- I don't have to waste money or time on all that anti-virus crap and can surf the Internet without fear. For that reason alone, I don't think that Apple will go away any time soon.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[sonpal]

You seem have to forgotten Sun's new line of Opteron based servers.

But that's helping x86 survive and the x86 competition is only going to make x86 cheaper, and will ultimately make it even harder to keep Sparc around. They need to stop giving money to x86-based designs. If they were going to go the x86 way, they should have committed to it a long time ago. This is exactly the wrong time.

Apple still doesn't have a real 64 bit OS.

And Sun doesn't have iLife. What's your point? The companies have different focuses... if Apple wants to go after the G5/OSX server market, then it will eventually have to do this. But that's not their core business.

AMD is the company primarily battling Intel.

AMD and Intel may fight, but no matter who wins there, Sun will lose. If there wasn't a fight, they might have a chance because a monopoly on x86 would keep x86 prices higher.

Intel is not big iron.

You must be ignoring all those Linux or WinNT/Xeon machines that have been eating into Solaris/Sparc marketshare since the mid-90's.

Itanium is a failure.

I never mentioned Itanium in my comments, because it's not responsible for Sun dying... the Itaniums were frigging expensive.

Opteron is a success, and that is why Sun, IBM, HP, and plenty of smaller server vendors are using it.

On the contrary, Opteron is a success because Sun, IBM and HP are using it. Sun backed themselves into a corner - they should have gone with G4 and G5. IBM will sell you anything you want and then make money with services. And HP has no choice but Opteron... they (well Compaq) made the blunder of killing the Alpha, and everyone knew that Itanium was going to be too costly.

Regardless Apple is stuck in 2% marketshareland forever...

Possibly, but only if you completely discount G5/OSX based supercomputers, which as far as I can tell, are going to be more cost-effective than the Opterons.

... unless they bring back clones and/or release an x86 version of OSX.

I do agree that BeOS could have been a wonderful OS for Apple, but I'm not sure that the BSD-based-NeXT-based design was an entirely flawed choice... after all, it is winning them UNIX converts who are fairly pleased to find a somewhat familiar CLI under the hood. And as for clones, remember the Sun clones from Integrix waaay back in the 90's? They only hurt Sun's sales. Supporting clones is a nightmare, and will only make your software Microsoft-ish.

PS, I don't own an Apple product yet. I'm just interesting in businesses with geek products, so I can trade their stock.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Zareste]

I can't figure out which is more brainless: The above post or the fact that its score exceeds 0. Of course, I'm not typing anything useful either.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Zareste]

I think this post is too well-written to begin a flame war - but I think that if Apple and Microsoft die one day, they'd probably bring Linux down with them because this is sort of a three-party system - they're all practically doing the same thing with only a few differences. Whatever revolutionary system blows one out of the water will probably hit the others as well.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Not liking DiFranco HAS to be worth more than a measly 3% !

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

You make a valid point, but remembor, it's true in reverse to, if I want to move to windows I'll need to replace most of the software. As for windows only programs, this is only a problem for avid gamers, while I would like to be able to play battelfeild it's not exataly a life or death issue...
oh, and remembor, we had excape velosity for year windows did ;)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[d34thm0nk3y]

I'd like to see a list of computer jobs (NOT PROGRAMS) that cannot be done on a Mac running OSX

oh...i dunno...how about programming software for Windows, you know, the OS most of the planet is running.... Try doing a search for computer related employment sometime...

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[TonyZahn]

I know this post is completely useless and will get moderated to nothing, but the parent is so relevant that it's a shame the mod cap is only 5... Good show!!

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[burnunit0]

I've understood that technically speaking, it's mouses, believe it or not. When referring to computer mouses. I just say mice because I'm lazy.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[luna69]

> If Cadillac's ran on something... Why the hell can't /.-ers use punctuation properly?

It's very simple, people.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[arminw]

I was talking about USERS of computers, not programmers. It goes without saying that it usually best to write software on the platform that the software will run on the most. Why would anyone want to write software for a Windows computer on a Mac or write software for a Mac on a Wintel box?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[PygmySurfer]

With the Dell Axim, their Ipod clone

Uhh, last I checked the Axim was a PDA, the iPod a portable music player.

Perhaps you meant the Dell DJ, which IS their iPod clone.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[forkazoo]

Hrm? What is Dell's R&D? R&D does not equal engineering. What has Dell ever created? What were Dell's innovative moves?

Apple was first with the Newton. Apple was near the start of MP3 players, and made a genuinely distinctive product. A unique OS. (Several of them over the history of the company.) Apple was part of AIM, which developed the first PPC processors. Apple had some of the first really viable, useful laptops.

When has Dell invented a CPU architecture? Proprietary motherboards does not mean the same thing as being innovative.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jaysyn]

Huh? My view that both major parties are equally corrupt is hardly indefensible.

Jaysyn

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

That remark was actually aimed at TMoney, not you. Sorry for the confusion.

That said, given your view that "both major parties are equally corrupt," I hope you realize (even if it's true) that it doesn't mean both parties are essentially identical and therefore not worth differentiating between.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Lane.exe]

Right on. I use my G5 for games. Very nice. This "lag" thing we used to speak of with such ire is no more.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you think holding control is easier than buying a better mouse, all I can do to help you is to point out that Mac isn't an acronym unless you're talking about banking cards or cosmetics. Neither of which involve holding down control. But I get the impression you're the type that often wears cosmetics.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[tai_Dasher]

Mod this shit up, yo.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[fyonn]

if thats the only reason you two are refusing to consider a mac then I think you're both doing yourself a disservice.

maybe you don't like osx, thats okay. you might not want to use a ppc architecture, fine. you think osx's packaging system sucks, can't argue. you might want to keep compatibility with windows software. all good reasons not to buy a mac. but just cos it's got a one button mouse (only as standard) seems a bit of a crap reason.

every platform has some hoop to jump through, they all have some annoyance. apple have a good reason for shipping a one button mouse as standard, we may not agree with it, but they've made their decision and they don't seem in any mood to change. however, they've given you the capability to avoid the problem. modifier keys for the mouse button does the common "other" button tasks, and the OS supports multi button mouses out of the box.

you're seriously considering spending a decent amount of money on a new desktop/laptop and you're not prepared to go and buy a mouse you like? seems a little odd. I can semi understand it with laptops, but even then. it's not like the OS revolves around the other buttons, you can do pretty much everything with that one button, and most laptop users I know have an external mouse anyway.

guys, please. don't use a single mouse button as a reason not to try a new platform. you're utting off your nose to spite your face.

dave

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[tc]

Yes, I know. But my point is that what once was luxury, is now being crushed by better value competition. Happened to Cadillac, could, and perhaps is, happening to Apple.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Jaysyn]

If you had paid attention, you would have read that I was only talking about an iBook. Yes, a laptop with a single button on the trackpad would be too much of a pain in the ass to me *when I can't use a regular mouse*. If I couldn't attach a Logitech mouse to the iMac I already have, I wouldn't have bought it either.

Jaysyn

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[wbd]

www.realbasic.com

Create programs for Mac OS, MacOSX, Windows, and Linux...in a Visual Basic like language (you know...the language that caused Windows to be a success....)

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[the argonaut]

Sorry, he's right. It's BREAK. As in fall apart, cease functioning, etc., not as in to slow down or come to a stop.

If you're going to nitpick, do it right.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Krondor]

I don't know if you've looked at the Dell Axim, but that counts as serious engineering. Making the existing PPC architecture that small and on par with HP (who in their commercials say HP engineering) is a feat in itself. It's an amazing piece of work, and as far as your idea of engineering. You do have to do engineering in the first place to make a proprieatary motherboard although you might not see the merit, and I find proprietary stuff just a little annoying.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Krondor]

Uhh, last I checked the Axim was a PDA, the iPod a portable music player.

Perhaps you meant the Dell DJ, which IS their iPod clone.

I mean the Dell Axim as an example of engineering, it was a list. Dell Axim, Ipod Clone, Laptops, etc.. are all examples of Dell Engineering. I calld the Dell DJ an IPod Clone because I couldn't think of its name. Thanks for the reminder.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[davesag]

Better yet though, use the terminal window and unplug the mouse

kinda makes it hard to click on the terminal icon though.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Ohreally_factor]

We find much comfort from observing the zealotry of the Amiga community.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Ohreally_factor]

Codewarrior, anyone?

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Ohreally_factor]

I was worried about this, too, when I got my powerbook, but it hasn't been that much of a problem in practice. The modifier keys are close enough to the trackpad that it's really a non-issue for me, once I got used to ctrl-click instead of right clicking. It might seem like a lot more work, but really it's not.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[Ohreally_factor]

The original rationale was that it would help drive computer sales. Then the iPod became a runaway success unto itself and a huge profit center.

Re:Yes, yes, yes, Apple's dying, blah blah blah

[actiondan]

I agree that someone announcing Apple is about to fail does not prove that Apple is failing, but neither do previous false predictions disprove the current one.

Previous false predictions do not disprove the current one, but they should certainly be borne in mind when deciding whether or not to panic because someone has made a new prediction.

The fact that is important to me here is not that previous false predictions have been made, but that previous false predictions have been made that seemed, at the time, to be as well reasoned as the current one. It wasn't that all of the predictions of Apple's demise were obviously illogical. Clearly there is something about the way Apple works as a business that allows them to evolve, escaping even seemlingly-certain doom.

All those previous predictions that ended up being prooved wrong have shown me that that the demise of Apple cannot be predicted by logic, evidence and indicators. That makes me treat new predictions that are based on these approaches with a healthy pinch of salt.

Dan.

Better link to article!

[amitti]

Here, you won't have to sell your sole to read it:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/17/markets/freei ntro_ ipod_0404/

-Aaron Mitti

Re:Better link to article!

[BiggsTheCat]

What about my halibut?

Re:Better link to article!

[swoebser]

That's okay, my shoes aren't worth that much anyway.

Re:Better link to article!

[turgid]

Here, you won't have to sell your sole to read it:

Good. We wouldn't want impared perambulatory function or to have to miss dinner.

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

And here's the actual LINK.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/17/markets/freeintro_ ipod_0404/

Re:Better link to article!

[TexTex]

Link that works out of the box, and properly formated...here...

http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/17/markets/freeintro_ ipod_0404/

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't think I'll have a problem with my sneakers if I went to that link.

Re:Better link to article!

[pavon]

That will only let you read the into, which doesn't say much more than the slashdot blurb.

But gol'darnit fish is much too expensive here in the desert for me to give it up just to read a professional troll.

Re:Better link to article!

[eclectic4]

*eclectic, a women in a man's clothing, throws a stone at you*

Re:Better link to article!

[Hiro Antagonist]

Quit floundering around and just read the article.

Re:Better link to article!

[Black Perl]

Why so crabby?

Re:Better link to article!

[blackmonday]

You're giving me carp-al tunnel syndrome hitting page down on my keelboard.

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell do you guys come up with these puns? They are horrible.

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

'impaired'

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks Richard.

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of sex. Lots of it.

Re:Better link to article!

[jmichaelg]

Here, you won't have to sell your sole to read it:

Will my shoelaces suffice?

Re:Better link to article!

[niko9]

He's usually very mellow; must be a fluke. :o)

Re:Better link to article!

[fearboy]

This discussion is giving me a haddock.

Re:Better link to article!

[sharkey]

We wouldn't want impared perambulatory function or to have to miss dinner.

So... is that like infrared?

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

That put him in in his plaice!

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

No. He's always shellfish. Net result? He's not up to scale. I'll clam up now.

Re:Better link to article!

[turgid]

No, it's like a fruit but with some of the vitamins taken out.

Re:Better link to article!

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a song back in the 80s (maybe earlier?) that was played on Dr. Demento a lot, called "Wet Dream." I'm pretty sure I recognize several of the puns from that.

Re:Better link to article!

[Ohreally_factor]

I think you mean a blind fruit.

Apple is dying...again.

[BWJones]

Yet at the same time, Google has reported an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google. HP has licensed the iPod for distribution and iTunes for inclusion on HP computers. And furthermore, Apple appears to be making huge headway into the science and technology markets as well as gaining steam again in the higher education environments. Finally, a significant portion of the scientists I work with are switching platforms from Windows to OS X.

So, from where I am viewing the market from the perspective of an end user, Apple's market position is looking pretty good to me. This article appears to be another one in the long chain of prognosticators predicting the demise of Apple Computer, but what they always miss is the disproportionate influence the company has had on the personal computer industry. Hey, where would Microsoft get all their R&D from if not for Apple?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft sold fewer than 1,000 copies of Datacenter Server before withdrawing it from the market.

Withdrawn from market?

Interesting story you created there... You (and many sys admins) remind me of some professors of mine. Absurdly anti-microsoft, yet hadn't used a single one of their products since before Win95.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[morelife]

Yet at the same time, Google has reported [google.com] an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google.

Exactly, they're all shopping online for new PCs.

Hey, where would Microsoft get all their R&D from if not for Apple?

If you're going to ingest hallucinogens, at least - offer us some.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft research.

They even give some of their stuff away. And other stuff would blow your mind.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

The author pointed out why the iPod won't save them. One cluster is only huge headway to someone who went from 0 to 1.

+5 for saying good things about Apple, though. Oh, and your personal anecdotes are the most complelling market research released on the subject.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[thogard]

Apple may be dying but I know a large number of people that have recently bought new macs and I've been sending people off to buy macs because I do not answer window questions anymore. At the after meeting Pizza at the local lunix users group last month there were 10 people that had mac laptops out of the 30 or so people.

Of course I'm holding out on buying a new one till they come an Apple [tm] 3 button mouse.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[jpflip]

I second that observation - I'm one of the only physicists on my experiment who doesn't use a Mac laptop! OS X has a lot of appeal in many parts of the science community - it allows a user the ability to transparently use a lot of unix/linux functionality (ssh, xwindows, etc) to deal with workstations and data servers and yet gives you a fun, slick user interface when you want it. Not to mention that Mac laptops, while somewhat delicate, are very nice.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[fungai]

I'm writing this from a Mac myself, but the information you posted is wrong. If you look at the Google reports for Feb 2004, the Mac users are 4%. Now look at report for June 2001. The amount reported for Mac users....... 4%

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[BWJones]

Not only local user groups, but we are collaborating with some folks in computer science and the last meeting we had, I counted 6 out of 10 laptops which were Macs. This is from a department that two or three years ago was almost impossible to find a Macintosh anywhere. At the last international scientific vision meetings I attended, the percentage of Macs was up significantly at around 30% of the total and I am looking forward to seeing what the percentages are at this years meetings.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm writing this from a Mac myself, but the information you posted is wrong. If you look at the Google reports for Feb 2004, the Mac users are 4%. Now look at report for June 2001. The amount reported for Mac users....... 4%

Hey, I am happy that you are posting from a Mac, but if you look at ALL of the statistics, you will find that marketshare declined to 3% through the rest of 2001, all through 2002 and 2003. It has since gained another percentage point. So sorry, but please check your facts before posting garbage.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

You would think that windows would die first, what with all the viruses it keeps getting.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

"gives you a fun, slick user interface when you want it"

And when you don't want to use a slick UI, you can use OS X's CLI.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to ingest hallucinogens, at least - offer us some.

Ahhhh, spoken like a true Linux user: Wanting someone to give you something for nothing eh?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easy. Apple is dying because they use BSD.

"Panther integrates features from state-of-the-art FreeBSD 5 into Darwin -- the Open Source, UNIX-based foundation of Mac OS X"

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[duffbeer703]

Big money scientists running with government grants didn't do too much with Windows anyway. The scientists switching to OSX aren't hurting Microsoft -- they are hammering one more nail into Sun's coffin.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[duffbeer703]

Datacenter Server isn't a high-volume product. It runs on multi-million dollar 32 processor computers.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[sjlumme]

"Hey, where would Microsoft get all their R&D from if not for Apple?" From late-60s era Xerox PARC systems, like everyone else.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[overunderunderdone]

If you look at the Google reports for Feb 2004, the Mac users are 4%. Now look at report for June 2001. The amount reported for Mac users....... 4%

But they went down since then and are now on their way back up. Last February they were at 3% according to Zeitgeist, this year they are at 4%. It looks like Google rounds their numbers to the nearest full percentage point so who knows what that really means.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[smellygeek]

Yet at the same time, Google has reported an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google. Did they mention one IP address accounts for 90% of those? Ah, the power of AppleScript and Safari.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[ProfKyne]

Yet at the same time, Google has reported an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google.

That would make sense, since the default web browser on MacOSX puts a Google-specific search textfield on every window.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[morelife]

If you're going to ingest hallucinogens, at least - offer us some.

Ahhhh, spoken like a true Linux user: Wanting someone to give you something for nothing eh?


Not at all - I plan to eventually puke in your lap! I call it giving back to the community.

On a more serious note, how about the Mac user community getting "something for nothing" by having FreeBSD as the base for their OS. That "something" is huge. Essentially the OS is replaced, and skinned with OSX and its little suite of apps. This will carry Apple much further than System 9 or whatever would have. It's nice about Konqueror and all that but let's get real - Apple was saved technically here. Now, can they do it financially?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[TheRaven64]

Of course I'm holding out on buying a new one till they come an Apple [tm] 3 button mouse.

Then you are going to be waiting a long time. MacOS, and Mac applications are designed not to need more than the single button. I bought a three button mouse for my PowerBook, and the only time I ever use that is when I'm running X11 applications. Nothing native needs it (which is not to say they don't support it. They do.)

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't delicate in the least. My laptop has been through more abuse in the last three years than any Turing-complete machine should ever be subjected to, and it still runs just fine.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[johneee]

I wouldn't read too much into that figre on Google.

An increase of 3%-4% could just mean an increase from 3.49 to 3.50.

Of course, it could also mean an increase from 3.49 - 4.49, but we wouldn't know, would we?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[mbbac]

Buy a Logitech, geez.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[afidel]

Datacenter server isn't just server 2003 with a higher price tag, it is server 2003 win a specific configuration on a specific piece of hardware with VERY tight SLA's, like no more than X unscheduled downtime per year, etc. And yes there ARE companies that are using it for new projects in areas where mainframes would have traditionally been used. Mainframes though will likely never die. The reason is that mainframes have a mindset that no other computer architecture has, it doesn't matter how fast something gets done on average, it matters how slowly it gets done in the worst case. Mainframes are all about insuring that batch processing of high volume loads get done by a certain deadline, else there is usually hell to pay. Until there is a PC or UNIX OS/platform that is focused on those same goals then mainframes aren't going anywhere. Microsoft might have killed it the mainframe killer but what they really meant was our first foray into the upper echelons of the datacenter.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[pknoll]

Yet at the same time, Google has reported an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google.

The default searchbar engine in Safari is Google, and cannot be easily changed. It's not surprising to me that a larger portion of Apple users are using Google.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[The Lynxpro]

"And furthermore, Apple appears to be making huge headway into the science and technology markets as well as gaining steam again in the higher education environments. Finally, a significant portion of the scientists I work with are switching platforms from Windows to OS X."

The article is extreme short-sighted. They seem to think that just because a person doesn't switch to the Mac platform the day they purchase their iPod then the company [is doomed]. How often do average people change their computers? I'd be willing to bet that most people who purchased computers during the boom in 1999 are now just getting ready to buy their next machine. [After all, Microsoft just had to extend the support life of Win98 because so many people weren't upgrading...yet]. So if they buy an iPod in the meantime and really like it, they might actually consider switching to the Mac.

If anything, I think Apple's marketshare is going to go up over the next two years. Despite Best Buy not carrying them now.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[fwarren]

Besides, according to Microsoft, linux does not exist, it is just a toy OS. The only answer that Microsoft has to being a monoply is that Apple is THE COMPETITION. After all, they have 3.6% of the market.

Microsoft will not let Apple die. They will find some way to massivly infuse cash into the company before letting it go belly up.

As long as Microsoft has some serious coin in the bank, Apple will never die.

That is not to say that Apple can not suceed on their own merrits. Just that the worse case senario is that Micorosoft will bail them out to maintian the "veil" of having competition at price.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[The Lynxpro]

"Yet at the same time, Google has reported an increase in the percentage of Mac users using Google."

"That would make sense, since the default web browser on MacOSX puts a Google-specific search textfield on every window."

So does Mozilla - and as we all know, it runs on Mac, Linux, and Windows platforms. Care to recant?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[The Lynxpro]

"The default searchbar engine in Safari is Google, and cannot be easily changed. It's not surprising to me that a larger portion of Apple users are using Google."

As I replied to another poster with the same comment, so does Mozilla (in terms of the Google search engine).

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Lumpy]

you know though, I was looking at replacing my vide oediting station with a MAC. but the huge cost difference and lack of NTSC out with component video cards available (no not display, I send it a video stream and it shoves it out the component video to my Digi-betacam Deck.) kept me away. A Dual Xeon setup with all the evil of Microsoft and Adobe was close to 1/2 the price of a similar capable mac. PLUS I had 3 monitors instead of the 2 widescreen monitors that the mac can only offer. (the mac store guy told me this...now I hear that 3 monitors IS possible on a mac...)

sorry, but if it was only $700 to $1000 more than I would have had the macintosh... but when you are looking at a $2000.00 difference. Maybe I was quoted wrong by the guy at the store, but it certianly did not seem worth-while to spend a significant amount of cash just to go mac for my use.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck!? Whoever even thought to mod this funny needs a check on their damn funnybone. This is *definitely* not funny.

Man...crack a joke about Windows and you'll get modded funny every single time.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[nortcele]

Ahhhh, spoken like a true Linux user:

I realize you are joking, and I do find the humour in it. But nearly every Linux fan I know is pro-Apple G5/OSX. They lust after it and are trying to figure out how to afford one. Linux doesn't do multimedia well, and Windows doesn't do that much better. You still have to add/hack to get things to work smoothly. Multimedia will be more of a factor in the migration of Windows/Linux users to Apple than many figure. Jobs seems to be hatching a plan.

While Microsoft is busy playing monopoly and fending off lawsuits, people are getting fed up and bailing (even though it may cost them more money). Paying more and getting less aggrevation is a good tradeoff.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to ingest hallucinogens, at least - offer us some.

Ahhhh, spoken like a true Linux user: Wanting someone to give you something for nothing eh?

No, we only want you to tell us how you made them. We can compile it ourselves.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, linux user groups and computer science meetings? That certainly is a large slice of the computer-purchashing demographic! How is apple able to crank out all these machines?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oy, here we go again. The next thing you say is Microsoft bailed Apple with $150M, right?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't your mother told you not to trust single digit changes in single digits numbers? changes ?

Or do you only mean that Mac is back to the level of january 2003?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[System.out.println()]

Mozilla's not the default on any of those, except some breeds of Linux.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a victim of its own quality, and computers in general are reaching the saturation point of usabilty. I have bought over 100 macs (publishing) since my first mac plus in 1987, and the one thing I can honestly say is they last.

Lot's of Apples machines have (especially the clone era) sucked but if you stayed near the top of the line they really do last.

Currently I use a "old" dual processor G4 500 and with each new OS X release it gets faster not slower. I run photshop, indesign, illustrator, final cut pro, all to my satisfaction. I maintain a few rev B original IMacs (more memory added of course) with OS X on them for friends, who surf, word process & store photos. By maintaining what I really mean is I installed OS X and they just keep running.

I am a hardcore Mac user (ie:computer user) and most computers (PC or Mac) sold nowdays will outperform any software I use. I will use my current computer until it dies or when my main suite of software becomes unusable. If desktops sales are sluggish this is the reason.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[medeii]

... the default web browser on MacOSX

Not to be a pedant, but Safari's only the default browser in Panther (10.3). 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 all use IE5/mac as the default browser. It does make sense as people upgrade to Panther, but knowing how many of my friends are sticking with their ancient G3s and not upgrading, the 'default browser' argument can't be the only cause.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[The Lynxpro]

"Mozilla's not the default on any of those, except some breeds of Linux."

Strange how my Mozilla FireFox has had a Google search bar at the top right hand corner since how many name revisions ago?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[MoneyT]

It's not just Linux user groups either. My university is currently in the process of purchasing 3 new x serves to go along with all the macs that the teachers have been buying. Or to put it differently, the last time this school (other than the design dept) bought macs in any significant number was some early iMacs for infor terminals arround campus. Recently, we just negotiated a bulk purchasing agreement with Apple for the whole engineering and math departments. In all, I'd say from where I sit, Apple's doing damn good for themselves.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[System.out.println()]

What I meant was, Mozilla doesn't come installed and the default browser on Windoze or Macs... only some breeds of linux. (Maybe most breeds, in fact it probably is most breeds, but I can't say for sure.)

You are correct tho, the Google thingy is there by default (once you get the browser).

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Chiron Taltos]

(which is not to say they don't support it. They do.)

True ... just take a look here. Plenty of choices are available. I think I even saw a 5-button mouse when I glanced through it.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Llywelyn]

Mozilla's not the default on any of those

...and until 10.3 IE was the default on the Mac. Not to mention that if you just upgraded your system and had it as the default before it is *still* the default.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[OmniVector]

considering that today's macpoll shows that 95% of them use google anyways, and that if you really wanted you could change it does this matter?

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

That all depends of the type of Multimedia your talking about. As far as standard music and video formats go it does pretty darn well for itself with the exception of DVD's namely because large corporations hold the DVD encryption technology as proprietary. Of course many of those same movies contained on those DVD's spend a lot of time in Linux multi media workshops, take a stroll through just about any Hollywood Render farm not to mention the workstations feeding those render farms. Because of Hollywoods' move to Linux Software developers like Adobe are now looking to port their software to Linux. Linux does indeed do multimedia,depending on what your needs and level of Multimedia you are working with.

When it comes to Linux users lusting after G5/OSX this is partially true, Iv know quite a few, though most loose that lust after playing on a G5 for a while especially when trying to network G5's in a mixed Desktop environment. Though a lot of us Linux users, myself included, give props to Apple for their use of a Unix OS as well as for their Aqua GUI.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

It might be true what you say, I see "Top News Queries February 2004 - Gay Marriage

Yep, they are mac users

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[System.out.println()]

Maybe this jump is an indication of how many new (10.3) Macs have been sold?

Just a guess. don't stone me. *ducks*

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[SEE]

Sigh. Why depend on the Google numbers and anecdotes? Apple itself reports Macintosh unit sales in its SEC filings. Look up the 10-K reports in EDGAR, and compare the Macintosh unit numbers. The Macintosh is not "making headway"; it is not getting significant numbers of switchers or new users.

The Mac has been stuck at 3-and-a-bit million units a year for several years now; in fact, it's only had one year since 1996 where it met or exceeded its 1996 sales.

So Apple has flat sales and declining profits. From a Money perspective, it's clear it's a lousy investment. And after all, the point of Money is to analyze things from the investment end.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[thogard]

Thats not the point. The point is Apple is clueless about what I need to run and how I work and if they want me to buy a powerbook, they are going to have to give in.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[thogard]

Your missing the point. I have a mac with a logitech mouse. Ive seen the page you pointed to and none of them have the Apple name. They need to admit their mistake and move on if they want my money.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[maysonl]

Take a look at the latest 10-Q for a slightly different perspective: 36% year-over-year growth.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Chiron Taltos]

I see what you're saying. However, I don't think Apple views it as a mistake. They designed the Mac GUI in such a manner, so you may accomplish all tasks with only one button.

I, for one, have never used a multi-button mouse on any of my Macs. At work I have a 3-button mouse with scroll wheel, so I have experience with a multi-button mouse. Yet when I go home to my Mac and its one button, I never look at it and think about replacing it. This is my experience and mileage will vary.

Honestly, I believe Apple has moved on ... and left mouse variants to the third-party accessory companies.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[mbbac]

If they want me to buy a PowerBook, they're going to have to leave them as they are with one pointer button that can be modified with the use of Shift, Control, and Option.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, Bill! I know that hit a nerve, so we'll try to be more considerate *snicker* next time!

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Ohreally_factor]

I have this feeling that you will give in before Steve Jobs does, no matter how obstinate and stubborn you think you are, or how powerful you think your personal RDF is.

Still, a good troll.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[Ohreally_factor]

Your mistake was talking to a guy at the "store" and not doing your research on various sites for professional video editors, or going through a VAR that specializes in video.

Also, I hope that by Adobe, you mean AfterEffects. If you want to do editing on PC hardware, you really need to look at Avid's software offerings. Very competitive with FCP, and some would say better, even on the Mac platform.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[ProfKyne]

So does Mozilla - and as we all know, it runs on Mac, Linux, and Windows platforms. Care to recant?

Oh I didn't realize Microsoft shipped Mozilla as the default web browser on their new operating systems.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[ProfKyne]

I'm going totally offtopic, but why would your G3-using friends not want to go to Panther? The only Mac I own is a G3 and Panther improved its performance more noticeably than it did to my brother's G4. In other words, speaking only in terms of performance, if there's one MacOS that G3 users should use, it's Panther.

Re:Apple is dying...again.

[medeii]

Panther is faster than 10.2 or 10.1, but it's still not as fast for them as 9. Not to mention that a lot of them still can't afford to buy new versions of OS X software. Students are poor. :)

Apple...

[Azadre]

Going out of business for over 28 years

Re:Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

Man...they need a shirt of that at ThinkGeek!

I love that!!!

Re:Apple...

[Timothy Dang]

Hey, we'd all know if they were really going out of business when they have a sale. Just think, iPod mini's for their actual value.

Re:Apple...

[dasmegabyte]

Just like a furniture store.

Re:Apple...

[sjlumme]

Apple is no deader than usual.

Re:Apple...

[peragrin]

Apple is going out of Business , and BSD is dying does that mean OS X is dying to go out of business. If OS X is dying to go out of business then why does everyone want to copy it, are we sure we want MS to be dying to go out of business too.

Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[grub]

How many tech companies (which were media darlings) imploded during the Dot-Bomb? Apple wasn't among them and they've been "Dying Since 1976". Hell, even one of the latest tech poster-children ( Segway) is sucking rocks. Apple has a core (no pun intended) market and a loyal customer base.

These analysts have an intangible they can't convert to numbers on the spreadsheet: customer loyalty. No user I've ever met has the same passion for Dell, Compaq or Microsoft.

disclaimer: I'm an Apple fanboy; bought a ][+ in 1981 (which still works!) and a variety of Macs along the way.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Krondor]

...No user I've ever met has the same passion for Dell, Compaq, or Microsoft..

You've clearly not been out much.. zealots come in all forms don't think Apple to have them all.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Passion clouds vision.

Paying $3000 for a $1000 computer is real smart. yep

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Please show me a link to ANYONE being a Dell zealot. I dare you.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[ShavenYak]

Does the "Dude, you're getting a DELL" guy count?

Damn twenty second delay.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[SillyNickName4me]

I think all the things you say about loyal userbase could be applied to Commodore as well.. yet they died like a decade ago due to lack of vision and marketing stupidity.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

That comment would make sense if the same computer was available for $1000, but it isn't. Have you REALLY looked at a $1000 PC that's remotely comparable to a dual G5? If you find one, it's going to have lots of substandard and inferior parts. But biggest thing of all, it's going to come with Windows. As shocking as this may seem to you, some people think OS/X is enough better than Windows to be worth the additional cost.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[rawg]

You get what you pay for. That's all I have to say.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[mumblestheclown]

These analysts have an intangible they can't convert to numbers on the spreadsheet

Bullshit. Customer loyalty is an easily quantifiable figure. Car industry market predictions include factors of customer loyalty--why would computer sales be any different?

I hate to be the one to bring you into the real world via such "shock therapy", but building, measuring, and retaining customer loyalty is doubtlessly a highly spreadsheeted and engineered activity at apple, inc done largely by accountants and MBAs.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Tassach]

IIRC, Commodore ultimately collapsed due to Enron-style accounting fraud and outright looting by the CEO & CFO. Even with the horrible mis-management going on, C= could have probably survived if the executives had syphoned off a little less money for their corporate jets and yachts.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Please show me a link to ANYONE being a Dell zealot. I dare you.

A link? I find it funny that the GP said this:

You've clearly not been out much

These are people you meet outside of the Internet. You probably won't see them blogging or posting on message boards. They are non-techies, but they are very proud of their Dell's and swear by them. It's like someone who is a Honda zealot, they are out there.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

No user I've ever met has the same passion for Dell, Compaq or Microsoft.

Thats becuase your an Apple fanbay and wouldn't listen to anyone else.

Maybe there aren't any Dell or hevean for bit Compaq zealots, although In the past I have heard plenty of people praise Dell Notebooks (although they are shit now)

Microsoft does have fanboys and fangirls. They extol the vurtues of a single dominate OS, the productivity and office software, and the windows "ease of use" phlosphly.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see Apple dying. They are popping up everywhere. They are everywhere you look. If you see a laptop on TV, its almost always an Apple Powerbook. Everyone wants an Ipod and many people have them. They don't just have a loyal userbase, they have a GROWING userbase. I see people on forums switching from Wintel to Apple, and UNIX people buying Apple as well. These are people who have never owned Apple hardware.

I am planning to buy a Mac once I figure out which one I want.

I think the cost of Apple hardware still is a barrier, though.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

No, cause he was PAID to hawk their crap, retard.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[stilwebm]

And don't forget the laptops either. Honestly the only thing the $1000 laptop will have over a fully loaded, $2,700 PowerBook is a two button touchpad. The PowerBook will have 5 times the RAM, twice the battery life, over 2.5 times the storage capacity, a DVD/CD burner (a few sub $1,000 PC laptops are starting to include these now), 802.11g over 802.11b, and bluetooth vs. SIR IrDA if you're lucky.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[lee7guy]

Not outright fraud or anything that was really illegal iirc, just plain old sad-but-legal greed.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[smellygeek]

I think there may be a question left unasked. We often hear market share tossed around in pronouncing Apple's dead, but I'm curious what the actual number of users looks like. Have the number of users climbed or declined? Not market share, but the actual people using Apple computers.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[AnonymousKev]

It's smart if you don't have to buy them as often. Let's compare two real-world scenarios.

Since 1986, my brother-in-law[1] has shelled out "about $1000"[2] every other year to buy a PC that is fast enough to run new software. Over 18 years, that totals out to around $9000. This does not include any additional software he had to buy for features that came standard on Macs.

Since 1986, I have only had to buy three Macs (1986: MacPlus; 1995: PowerMac 6100/66; 2003: G4 Sawtooth). This was at a total cost of around $8800 [3].

The MacPlus was replaced because of a bad power supply. The PowerMac 6100 is still in use as my sons' homework computer. 66MHz is more than enough to handle their typing speed :)

This comparison does not include the aggrevation of swapping out a PC every other year. It does not include his purchases of Win3.1/95/98SE/XP. (But then, it doesn't include my purchases of 10.2 and 10.3. All my previous MacOS versions were free.) And, of course, I'm not counting his countless hours of aggrevation configuring his plug-n-play devices :)

---

[1] I have tracked this because my brother-in-law has some sort of anti-Mac vendetta. Every time we meet, he goes on and on about how terrific his new computer is and continues to berate my "old" Mac. I don't know what fuels his compulsion.

[2] I suspect he actually spends more than $1000 for his PCs, but we'll work with your numbers on this one.

[3] Breakdown:
MacPlus: $2500 + $1000 for 4Meg (woo-hoo!) RAM
6100: $2500
G4 (500MHz): $2800

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[SillyNickName4me]

I wasn't suggesting it is ding, just that a loyal customer base is no guarantee for a healthy business in the face of mismanagement and bad decisions.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying $3000 for a $1000 computer is real smart. yep

By "real smart", do you mean smarter than paying $1000 for a $300 computer? "Passion clouds vision," - riiight.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[hak1du]

How many tech companies (which were media darlings) imploded during the Dot-Bomb? Apple wasn't among them and they've been "Dying Since 1976".

Not at all. Until the late 1980's, Apple was a hot company. Their products had enormous impact in the market and Apple was perceived as an innovator.

The first problem appeared when Apple tried to assert ownership of all GUIs, in particular against Microsoft. This backfired because it became clear to many people that Apple didn't, in fact, invent most of the things they claimed ownership to. It also made Apple pretty hated in the (then pretty small) free software movement.

I think Apple has indeed been going downhill since then. In the mid-90's, they killed their research labs. A little later, they threw out their core technologies, because they had deteriorated to the point of being a drag on the company, and switched to NeXT's software platform.

What does Apple have these days? An OS and GUI essentially based on oddball 1980's technology (Mach, Objective-C). But because developers aren't taking to that in great numbers, they are also throwing in C++ toolkits and Apple-specific Java. That doesn't look like enough to succeed in the market in the long run.

What should Apple do? They need to become even more mainstream and standards-based. For example, X11 should become an OS X API on equal footing with Quartz and Carbon, so that people can develop in the toolkits they like and are used to. Objective-C, Cocoa, and Mach should probably be de-emphasized--I don't think they have a future.

In the long term, I think Apple should aim to have everything from X11 on down (command line, servers, kernel) to be standard Linux and add value with what they are good at: graphic design, hardware design and packaging, sales, documentation, and small end-user applications. That is, what I think Apple could become and thrive at in the long term is a consumer Linux-system vendor with their own desktop environment, but based on X11 so that it actually allows Gnome, KDE, and other applications to be run. But I think there is so much prejudice and attitude within Apple and the Apple community that that isn't going to happen.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[the_crowbar]

Car industry market predictions include factors of customer loyalty--why would computer sales be any different?

I do not think the comparison between car manufacturer loyalty and computer manufacturer loyalty is valid.
ex. If I buy a Ford pickup, I can haul things in the bed of it. If I buy a Chevy truck I can haul things in the bed of it. The same idea applies to cars/minivans/SUVs/etc.
On the other hand, if I buy a Mac, I can run software made for OSX. Any previously purchased Windows software is wasted money. The loss of money invested in the Windows platform is the thing that I think will hold Apple back.

The Linux users have already borken the link with the Windows platform and are therefore free to choose whichever hardware/software they want.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[SillyNickName4me]

Hmm, that did indeed kill them off finally in the early 90s, but their problems are much older.

Imho their real problem was that they never managed to do anythign with the success of the C64, which doesn't really come as a surprise since noone could have forseen what happened with that machine, and it forced the company to expand at a rate they couldn't manage properly.

Add to that a whole lot of canceled or wasted development due to misguided ideas like

• The never finished C65 on google or such, trying to build an 8 bit computer on steroids in the late 80s/early 90s? the rest of the world was moving to 32bit, and commodore had done so itself half a decade earlier.
• SFD-1001 floppy drive, a 1MB (and very fast for the early 80s) 5 1/4" floppy drive.. superb machine, but by the time it came to market, CBM did not build any computers it could connect to directly. You could connect it to a C64 if you were prepared to buy an extra interface and give up compatibility with most existing C64 software (or were willing to write your own code for the interface and software that you wanted to use)
• C16/Plus 4, nice idea, but built around a platform that had been getting outdated for quite a while and at the same time failing to provide compatibility with software from older machines

Bottomline, the problems actually started with the success of the C64 and the loss of any strategy as a result.

Their failure? squeezing the last bit out of their existing technology when it turned out successfull , wasting money on perfecting it beyond the reasonable while spendign way too little on innovating their tech. In the mid 80s they seem to have seen the problem (but not the cause) and tried to solve it by buying Amiga inc.

The Amiga is a seperate story, tho the cluelessness about where to go is also very obvious from its history. I won't go into that part beyond saying that the A2000 once more points at failure to innovate as soon as they had an initially succesfull design.

At any rate.. greed was only a part of the picture, and imho far from the main cause of their downfall.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, not quite:
Your $2700 "fully loaded PowerBook" is actually $2999 (Assuming you don't customize it, that costs more)... it includes 512 DDR333 SDRAM (Your $1000 PC Laptop (if you go with Dell, for instance) includes 384 MB DDR266 SDRAM, that's nowhere near 5x's more), I can't really compare the battery life since I own neither of the two (can you substantiate twice the battery life from real world experience?), 2.5 times the storage capacity is about right (30 GB drive in the Dell, 80 GB drive in the Apple), Superdrive for the Mac, CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive for the Dell, Airport Extreme for the Apple (802.11g/b), upgrade for the dell (Dell TrueMobile(TM) 1300 WLAN (802.11b/g, 54Mbps) miniPCI Card [add $49 or $2/month1]), bluetooth for the Apple, no bluetooth for the dell, 17inch monitor on the Apple, 15 inch on the dell, G4 1.33 Ghz for the Apple, P4 2.8GHz for the Dell. 6.9 lbs weight for the Apple, 7.22 lbs weight for the Dell.

The Apple costs 3 times more than the Dell. Do you have 3 times more stuff?

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[stilwebm]

You must be looking at the wrong powerbook. Apple's store won't let me look at the one you configured, but I definately just configured a $2723.00 with 1.25GB RAM, 80GB hard disk, AirPort Extreme and Super Drive and 12.1" display. Then I compared that to all of the $950 to $1000 laptops listed in the value section of Buy.com, most of which have 12" or 14" screens, similar form factors and weights (4.8lbs for this apple with upgrades inside). The battery life I can definately substantiate. Non-Centrino Pentium IV and Pentium III-M laptops in my real world trials, runnning the battery dry, have substantially shorter battery life than PowerPC laptops, but the Pentium IV Centrinos certainly have better performance than a 1GHz G4.

The Apple costs 3 times more than the Dell. Do you have 3 times more stuff?

If you recall the parent post, I was only refuting the claims that a $3,000 Apple computer is equivalent to a $1,000 PC laptop. I never said the Apple has three times the "stuff." Your Inspiron 5100 is a very different form factor from the PowerBook I used, but to compare to the PowerBook in performance features it will cost $1896 (1GB RAM, 60GB HDD, XP Pro, 812.11g card, DVD burner). The Inspiron 300m is closer in size, but without an internal DVD/CDROM drive. Upgrade it to XP Pro, 1.1GB RAM, 60GB, 802.11g, external DVD-R/CD-R and the price is $2,356. That's a really nice laptop, but it doesn't look like a 3x price difference to me.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[bellings]

Let's see... l7" apple display, vs. a 14" dell xga display. Maximum of 2gb ram on the apple, vs. 1gb of ram on the dell. Built in bluetooth on the apple, no bluetooth on the dell. DVD burner on the apple, cd burner on the dell. 64mb ATI radeon 9600 on the apple, 32mb ATI radeon 7500 on the dell.

Buy the dell, and you'll be lucky to sell it on ebay in two years. Buy the apple, and you'll still be happy with it in 4 years.

Yes, the apple is worth more.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, what about the $2k or $3k Dell?

Faster, more stuff... I think you'll still be happy.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[bellings]

Put a $3K dell and a $3K apple side by side. The Apple is clearly the superior machine, hands down. If Microsoft ported the .NET framework and SQL Server over to OS X I would never have need to touch x86 hardware ever again.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Cthefuture]

Superior? Why?

The Dell would be hella faster for sure. You guys still running those puny G4's?

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[bellings]

You are correct. The only thing that matters on a computer is floating point performance.

How many of the new Athalon64's do you have in your render farm and finite-element-analysis cluster?

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Cthefuture]

You didn't answer the question. I'm serious... why is the Apple superior?

It's not for the speed, it's not for the price, so what is it?

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[bellings]

Truthfully, there are really only a few differences between a $3000 dell and a $3000 apple. The apple has built in blue tooth, a much longer battery life, a bigger screen, illuminated keys, a better firewire port, and a much, much, much more asthetically pleasing design. The dell is a little bit faster.

The dell will run Windows XP pro, which is an awesome OS. The apple will run OS X, which is an awesome OS. There will be more games available for the dell. Much of the apple productivity software will be better.

However, I've never known anyone happy with their 3 year old x86 laptop. I've known a lot of people perfectly happy with a 3 year old apple laptop.

As you said, it's not for the speed... they're about the same speed. And, it's not for the price... they're about the same price. It's mostly that the apple really is designed to be useful longer. Right now, the dells are coming with an (unpowered) firewire port and have gigabyte ethernet and wireless available, so there's not a huge difference. Only the bluetooth is really different. I can't know if that matters to you.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever hear of this thing called a JOKE, asshat?

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

So because Apple produces hardware not even worth upgrading very often is a good thing?

Most often your PC upgrades are for performance. Apple just doesn't have much of that in the first place and they don't increase it very often... Yeah, that's a good thing... Pffft.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[AnonymousKev]

I think you've completely missed my point, AC.

If it makes you feel better to think that, go ahead. Meanwhile, I'll use a computer that fully meets my needs, causes me little to no headache, and leaves me extra cash in hand over the long term.

Re:Sheesh. "The Sky Is Falling"

[Anonymous Coward]

Only because you can't upgrade because you payed so damn much for the machine in the first place. Meanwhile I'm running current technology because I can afford several upgrades for the price of your one outdated machine.

pffft...

OSX

[mod_critical]

I still think OS X is going to save Apple. It may be a slower propegation than this narrow analysis on the iPod and iTunes, but from what I have seen it has been creating more and more demand for Apple products.

Just locally, I have been spreading a "Mac Fever" to many of my collegues. A friend of mine turned me Mac this past summer after leaving an iMac with Panther on it up in our office all summer. He was working out of town for several weeks, and I used it regularily. I would have never wanted a Mac running OS 9, but now that I've used Panther...

After he got back I had to return to my Winblowz box (as I cannot use StuidoMX or Photoshop on Linux =[ ). After that I was fevering for a Mac hardcore. I finally was able to pick up a new G5 around Christmas time.

Ever since, I have been estatic about its performance, beauty, and stability. This has lead to antoher PowerMAC for the office, and two iBooks between my friend and I. The other people we work with are seeing how well our Macs help us get our work done, and are now looking to buy Macs of their own.

At other places I have worked I see the same thing happening. Someone gets a Mac, and six months later four or five other people have gotten not just one, but usually two, for office and home.

Of course, a computer is more expensive than an iPod, so this growth will be slower, but I see it occuring in force all around me.

Re:OSX

[Krondor]

... as I cannot use StuidoMX or Photoshop on Linux

Yes you can use Photoshop in Linux, but I'm not sure about StudioMX.. Quanta is getting very good though you should check it. I also thought I heard something about Adobe taking Linux commitment seriously, does anyone have a link to back me up?

Re:OSX

[oscast]

"I still think OS X is going to save Apple."

As if Apple needed "saving"

The company could use a healthy dose of growth but they are certinly not it need of "saving".

Re:OSX

[Turd Rippleton]

Sorry but "Mac fever" isn't so contageous around the world as it is in your area. The issue is not only price, but most companies have standardized with microsoft products for delivering rfp's, flows, common documents, etc. In addition, gamers do not have "mac fever" because they are not willing to pay the price for a mac, not to mention there is very little game support. Gamers push the PC industry to the next level. Why would I buy a G5 when I can spend half the money and do twice as much?

~Turd has bad karma

Re:OSX

[spamtrap]

Yep. Same here. My wife is the Tech for a Geology Dept. at Ohio U. Whe she started there was her and one other Mac person. Now half the department has G5 Macs.

She spends 98% of her tech support time with the windoze folks.

Every time another virus runs amok, she adds another Mac person.. Last time, she got all of the professors in one room and had the ones with the virus raise their hands. Then all of the Mac people raise theirs.. Her Quote. "You are smart people. There is a lesson to be learned here."

For me, the only only time I boot windows is in VirtPC to play poker. Otherwise, I don't even give it a thought

Like she says.. Mac OS X has none of the stability and security that you associate with Windows...

Re:OSX

[You Didn't Spellchec]

Ever since, I have been estatic about its performance, beauty, and stability.

Estatic? What the fuck is that? Is that what you hear when your internet radio station isn't coming in?

LOOKS LIKE SOMEBODY DIDN'T SPELLCHECK! YOU FAIL IT!!!1!!!!

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, OS X, BSD.....Living Apple....

Damn, I can't do it!
I can't afford to be moderated as troll again, even if it is a joke.

Re:OSX

[tokyobill]

I have to agree with you. I myself, bought an Ipod and loved it. Then I thought, well if the music player is this good, how is the OS. When it comes to Apple, you have to buy the machinery to use the OS, so I talked my boss into buying a G4 (you know, for research). Then I thought, this is great too and bought one for home too. And I'm still glad I did. That's almost $5,000 in sales as a result of the Ipod, not including all the new software I bought. So I would assume Jobs is doing something right. Just recently, I read that they finally paid off their debts and are making money. I don't think the apple is dying, I say look out world, here comes the rebirth of Apple!!

Re:OSX

[Jotaigna]

i dont see macs around me since here(Chile) they are very expensive so all of us have to cope with win$ht.
But i watch a lot of cable tv(a lot) and many channels are from USA, and all the new movies and all the sitcoms and series you can see people using macs, ibooks, g5's ad infinitum.
So i hear ppl a lot saying, if i had the money i would buy a mac.
Market shares and businnes have become very sensitive to opinions and speculation, so much that some arab prince sneezing rises the fuel prices in Chile. Could this report be a plot to reduce the value of apples market shares?, how inmune is apple to those speculations after 28 years of failing in predicting its doom?.

Re:OSX

[Luminari]

I like many other people would gladly be using OSX now if I didn't have to buy Mac hardware to run it (I spend enough money already on the pcs I have). They are squandering a huge resource by not letting x86 users run it. It is certainly alot more user friendly than Linux.

Re:OSX

[newdamage]

I completely agree with the parent post. The iPod is a fantastic consumer electronics device, but I believe that apple's operating system and hardware combination is really what makes me want to ditch my WinXP laptop. I've been saving money to buy a 12" iBook after getting tired of being jealous of all the other people in my CS lectures that had one.

Yes Steve Jobs, are you listening? Computer Science majors like your laptops. We got tired of Sony Vaio's, Dells, Gateways, and all the other poorly built laptops, when all we wanted was a machine that's unix friendly development environment, and still focuses on what's important in a laptop: build quality and battery life!

It's not that I'm a mac fanboy or anything, I just got tired of all the hassles that comes along with a laptop tied to WinXP (and no, Linux on laptops isn't a hassle free option ....yet.)

Re:OSX

[drinkypoo]

The lesson to be used there is that a Mac is a better computer for people who don't know shit about computers because it gives you less chances to shoot yourself in the foot. OTOH the worms running around now primarily infect computers through user error. Once again, MacOS is only invulnerable because there's not enough of it out there to make it worth writing this kind of software for. But, since it depends on a user downloading, extracting, and running something, if you swapped Windows' and MacOSX's market shares tomorrow, the same sorts of software would appear on the Mac tomorrow.

Re:OSX

[AgentAce]

You know...the virus issue just seems moot to me. Whatever platform has the largest user base, will have the script kiddies and virus writers spreading the crud around to all the machines. If people want to find a way to trash files or spread their worm to DoS loser.com, they will...it's human nature. The easiest way to do that is to use whatever platform is the most popular at the time...it just so happens that Windows on x86 has been the most popular for the past 18 years. If there were a switch to OSX on Mac within the next 10 years, I guarantee that within 15 we'd have the same problem we have now.

Re:OSX

[LoudMusic]

Well great. You have determined that virus coders don't waste their time with the smaller market. If / When OS X becomes a large part of the computing population you can be sure it will join the ranks of virus ridden computers. But as it stands, an OS X virus would have little effect on the few hundred thousand computers it would infect. Windows on the other hand is in use on a few hundred million computers.

The more people who 'convert' the bigger likelihood of causing a problem.

Re:OSX

[yabos]

That would be true if Windoze didn't come with basically everything turned on by default and a zillion open ports. If you connect a brand new XP machine to the internet without any firewall setup you will be infected within a matter of minutes. This has nothing to do with users being stupid. OS X IS more secure and has nothing to do with how many people use it. There have been many studies done to show this, and even ones posted here on Slashdot which prove that OS X is more secure. That is just a lame excuse.

Re:OSX

[yabos]

Wouldn't happen because OS X is more secure.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Computer Science people love OS X. One of my high level computer science classes was held in a lab of Linux computers. We were given the option of using our laptops instead of the lab computers. The next class, half of us brought in laptops, and they were all Macs. We did all the work for the class, meant for *nix-ish systems, on our Macs. I used emacs to do my editing and ran everything from the terminal. That was the first time our professor had really gotten to see OS X, but he was pretty impressed too. Turns out he used to lust after NeXT systems, and is now planning on getting a Mac himself some day.

As much as Linux just works if you can get it set up, OS X just works period. I've been surprised at the things that are included, and at how little problem there is adding other stuff. I've got programs compiled on my Mac that I bet nobody ever bothered to try on OS X before. I think bonnie++ is the only thing that I had to fix up before it would work.

I definitely recommend an iBook or Powerbook for CS students. It's everything you could want in a laptop.

Re:OSX

[overunderunderdone]

No, prior to OS X they DID need saving. I went through those dark days and they really were "beleaguered". Sure they had money in the bank but weren't going anywhere. We are all fortunate that they pulled out of what really was a death spiral.

The problem with the financial writers is that they sometimes don't get the technology so they don't understand it's potential impact on the company (while the opposite is true of tech writers). The successful transition to OS X puts Apple's technology on a firm foundation and now they can indulge their creative and innovative strengths in a way they couldn't before. This guys analysis assumes that things will stay static - but Apple's whole business model is built on pioneering NEW products. OS X is hugely significant because it lets Apple do this.

Re:OSX

[drinkypoo]

My point which I did not think I had secretly disguised as something else was that OSX is no less vulnerable to Email worms than anything else, but this "genius" mac user chick tried to claim that the Macs were better because they didn't have any Email virii. The sad truth is that they don't have Email virii not because Macs are more secure (whether they are or not) but because there's not enough of them to be interesting to malicious hackers.

I agree that it is pathetic that XP normally has all those ports exposed. XP is basically the new IRIX. If you slap it down on a properly configured network, all the machines will see each other and everthing is ducky, but everyone has to trust each other. Go grep your xdm config files on an older IRIX (say, 5.3) for the string 'xhost' and be amazed...

Re:OSX

[milenko11]

I agree that OS X is going to be the savior of Apple. I had played around on OS 9 a lot because my brother is a graphic artist and has always used macs and I found out that I hated OS 9. Later on, a friend showed me OS X and I switched almost immediatly. I ordered an 867 G4 tower when it was the fastest chip Apple made and shortly after bought an iBook. I never would have switched if it wasn't for OS X. The funniest part was that my brother didn't want anything to do with OS X until one day I just put it on his computer and he spends 90% of his time in OS X now.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, the only only time I boot windows is in VirtPC to play poker. Otherwise, I don't even give it a thought

Like she says.. Mac OS X has none of the stability and security that you associate with Windows...

And, apparently, none of the appreciable poker games either ?
Or large choice of games in general ?
How about a vast array of potential hardware with a multitude of drivers ? (stability, anyone?)
As for security, I'm sure OSX is more secure out of the box. But in the case of viruses : If a 'windows user' can be stupid enough to open unknown e-mail from a person they don't know, containing a password-protected ZIP file attachment which they then proceed to open (entering the password to unzip the zip file), then go ahead and execute the content of said ZIP file...
Then I have no problem whatsoever in believing that people will drop all guards and safechecks in OSX whenever a virus e-mail tells them to.

In no offense to your wife, I think her little demonstration is injust.
One could just as easily ask the Playstation 2 users to raise their hand and see if they were ever infected or got a bluescreen/kernel panic. I'd imagine the score would be even better than that of the OSX users, even though the userbase is potentially larger.

There are many reasons somebody may wish to use OSX, some of these reasons are inherent to the actual underlying OS, but the reasons she/you raise(s) need to be put into perspective and rationalized.

Re:OSX

[ozric99]

She spends 98% of her tech support time with the windoze folks.
Every time another virus runs amok, she adds another Mac person..

Without meaning to sound patronising, perhaps she should do some work to secure the windows boxes instead of letting viruses "run amok". I work in a 100% Microsoft shop (well, ok, we have Solaris boxes, IBM mainframes and a few linux machines dotted around) and in all the years I've been here we haven't been hit by one single virus. Our network is plenty secure, thanks, and while I'd rather we didn't use so many Microsoft products, viruses/worms come last on the list of my reasons to change.

Frankly I'm getting sick and tired of paper MCSEs who know about as much about properly securing a network as I know about how financial markets work.

Rant over. :) That wasn't particularly directed at your wife - your story was merely the catalyst.

Re:OSX

[Stone316]

If they got virus's on their computer they can't be that smart. Any dummy can buy Nortan Anti-virus and protect their system. The people getting affected are blindly opening attachments with no anti-virus software. So you tell me who's smart... Mac's may be more secure but without education it doesn't really matter.

Re:OSX

[hak1du]

I still think OS X is going to save Apple. [...] Ever since, I have been estatic about its performance, beauty, and stability.

Little of that is related to the underlying technology: Mach, Objective-C, and DisplayPDF don't make the Mac any faster, more beautiful, or stable. Performance is achieved through tuning, beauty through design, and stability through testing and using better tools.

Does the Mac have an advantage there? I don't think so. I suspect on most objective measures, Linux, X11, and Windows XP beat Mach and DisplayPDF in terms of performance. The use of scalable graphics in Gnome, KDE, and Windows allows them to look beautiful (and there are lots of beautiful themes for all those platforms). And Linux and Windows XP are both very stable. If anything, the tools that are becoming mainstream on Linux and Windows these days (Render, SVG, C#, GDI+, etc.) are technologically better than what OS X is based on.

What the Mac offers is simple answers: if you buy it, you know you are getting a certain level of quality and performance without having to think about it much. That level of quality and performance is arguably worse than what you would get out of Windows or Linux if you knew what to choose, but with Apple, you don't have to think about it much.

But don't mistake Apple's good branding strategy and good product strategy with good technology: technologically, Apple has little if anything that its competitors don't have, usually in better form.

Re:OSX

[blackmonday]

"Every time another virus runs amok, she adds another Mac person"

Please tell her that my Windows 2000 machine just got nimda, and I will send her my shipping address soon.

Re:OSX

[spamtrap]

The difference is that since OS X is UNIX based it is much harder to infect the computer. A virus might be able to blow away the user but it's going to have a much harder time setting itself up as an executable that will attack the rest of the network.

OS X comes with the root account disabled and a normal user cannot even sudo a program owned by someone else, so an a virus that want to escalate itself to root is not going to work. That leaves the virus without anywhere important to go. UNIX was designed with the idea that users are idiots when it comes to security, and not to be trusted.

Only a fool would think that it's impossible to write a virus for Mac, but on a difficulty scale I'd rate Windows as trivial and OS X as very hard. It's not about popularity, it's that BSD UNIX (underneath OS X) has had somethng like 30 years of folks hammering on it and was designed to be multi-user and secure from the start. Same goes for Linux.. Windows was designed to be easy for a user to use, but not designed to live on a hostile network, and it shows.

As for the multitude of hardware, that's a fair point but what does work with OS X "just works" so you never find yourself in some sort of dll hell. In fact, unless it's a security or os update, you almost never even reboot the darn computer.

Did I mention that the computer quite literally never crashes?

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

I this your wife?

Re:OSX

[Niten]

Well you certainly would see some more viruses written for OS X if, as you say, the marketshare of Windows and Apple were switched. However, OS X discourages users from running applciations as root or administrator, so what a virus can actually do when running on a BSD-based OS X system is far less harmful that what a virus is free to accomplish on XP, where users have administrative permissions by default.

As for Windows XP's real problems, such as vulnerabilities to RPC worms and the like... that's just something that OS X users don't have to worry nearly as much about, especially without a RPC service that cannot be disabled (seriously, WTF, Microsoft?). Take a look at how many remote root vulnerabilities have existed for Windows XP, as opposed to OS X, and you'll see what I mean. In short, there is more to Mac OS X's invulnerability to recent virus and worm waves than its relative lack of popularity.

(Warning: Entering Mac fanboy mode.) And as for your statement that Macs are better for those who know nothing about computers: Yes, they are, but I would add that Macs can be better for people who know a whole lot about computers, as well. If you have used an OS X machine and seen the potential of a UNIX system with an Apple interface, you can probably understand why many of my friends and I in my school's electrical and computer engineering department are switching over to Apples.

Re:OSX

[Codifex Maximus]

>> The lesson to be used there is that a Mac
>> is a better computer for people who don't
>> know shit about computers because it gives
>> you less chances to shoot yourself in the
>> foot.

Word. Most people don't know shit about computers.

>> OTOH the worms running around now primarily
>> infect computers through user error.

If you call buying a WinXP machine prior to SP1 and MS RPC Patch publication OR not knowing enought to check if the patches are installed, then yes it is user error. (see my reply above)

>> Once again, MacOS is only invulnerable
>> because there's not enough of it out there
>> to make it worth writing this kind of
>> software for.

I have to agree, mostly, with this statement. However, I'd have to add that BSD isn't intrinsically vulnerable and doesn't rely on Security by Obscurity.

>> But, since it depends on a user downloading,
>> extracting, and running something,
>>

The Worms don't require the user to download ANYTHING! They attack the computer via the RPC mechanism. i.e. Connect to the net without the SP1 and RPC Patch installed and WHAMMO - worm infestation.

>> if you swapped Windows' and MacOSX's market
>> shares tomorrow, the same sorts of software
>> would appear on the Mac tomorrow.

Probably - if you equate "same sorts of software" with viruses and worms. But, it would probably take longer than tomorrow. Windows is like Swiss Cheese; BSD might have a hole or two - YOMV.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

shudder

Re:OSX

[the pickle]

For me, the only only time I boot windows is in VirtPC to play poker. Otherwise, I don't even give it a thought

Here, now you don't even need to do that:

Mac poker games

And tell your wife that Minesweeper is available for the Mac too. Might give some of those virus-laden Windroids the kick in the pants that they need.

p

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

In my CS department there were only two mac heads: one of my professors and me. Within a year, another professor switched. Now (I graduated already), they have thrown away all of their Windows machines and bought PowerMacs.

What does this mean? Two things:

1. In my previous school there IS a Mac fever.
2. This college is now going to produce Mac developers.

Point #2 is especially important. The lack of developer base is what killed OS/2. A great developer base is what can make OS X become more popular (by providing a rich bundle of apps).

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

if you need to ask, you're out of your depth and won't want to understand anyway.

Re:OSX

[Shalda]

Every time another virus runs amok

This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. Virus writers don't target a 2% market share. And Macs did have plenty of problems back when Office macro viruses were the major virus threat and Mac had a much larger market share.

Mac OS X has none of the stability and security that you associate with Windows

Maybe in your world you have stability and security problems with Windows. I don't. My systems are patched and well maintained. They are secure and don't randomly crash. So you can take your little troll and stick it where the Sun(tm) don't shine -- Seattle.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly how it works. It will take time but excellence will always prevail eventually (I have to believe this to go on living).

Three years ago I had 4 PCs in my house, Today I have 3 Macs and a PC (which isn't even running). I just got a friend to upgrade from a PC to a PowerBook for his consulting business.

Tomorrow I will convert another, I can't help it, I love working on a computer again for the first time since 1983 when I first had to work on DOS.

Let's hope that the dark ages are over and soon people will begin to appreciate what computers are really capable of!

Re:OSX

[Eccles]

I still think OS X is going to save Apple.

OS X, in my experience, is a polarizing change. Certainly its fundamentals of security and stability are good. But I know many of long-time Mac-heads, and for them it's not a fully positive change. So Apple lost the enthusiasm of some of its evangelists in the changeover.

Re:OSX

[AvantLegion]

Not the "Windows is only virus-riddled because it's popular" myth again.

The problem with Windows is that a compromised application can often get total access to the system. No matter how popular Macs or Linux or any other UNIX-based OS gets, a compromised e-mail client doesn't get system access.

And that's the difference. Sure, if Macs were more popular, people would attempt to write viruses more often for it. But without crap like ActiveX to exploit, their successes would be much fewer on the Mac.

Re:OSX

[prockcore]

I have to agree, mostly, with this statement. However, I'd have to add that BSD isn't intrinsically vulnerable and doesn't rely on Security by Obscurity.

I'd have to add that OSX is NOT BSD, and Apple does indeed rely on security through obscurity.

Re:OSX

[Knetzar]

A few months ago on my campus you could get a virus on an XP box within 30min of installing the OS. Didn't even have to run an app, just install and wait. Often the virus would hit before you could update the box. The only way I found to get around the problem was to get the patch on a CD and do the install w/o connecting to the network. Is that considered user error?

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Would have to agree. I bought my wife an iMac last summer, which led to 2 new iBooks under the tree for my middle school aged children, and finally a new PowerBook for work 2 months ago -- I will never go back!

Re:OSX

[poot_rootbeer]

For me, the only only time I boot windows is in VirtPC to play poker.

I'm pretty sure there are poker programs available natively for the Mac...

Re:OSX

[poot_rootbeer]

I'm sure she'd be glad to make some effort to secure the Windows boxes -- if only she had more than 2% of her time available after dealing with the immediate needs of the Windows users.

Re:OSX

[miles_thatsme]

"But, since [virus infection] depends on a user downloading, extracting, and running something, if you swapped Windows' and MacOSX's market shares tomorrow, the same sorts of software would appear on the Mac tomorrow."

Or using the most popular Windows email client (Outlook/Express), which perverts the email protocol to allow ActiveX/VBScripts to auto-execute upon receipt.

This observation gets made daily on Slashdot. Mod down the parent.

Re:OSX

[rampant mac]

How is this shit insightful?

Apache has over 60% of the web server market, yet you don't see it getting exploited nearly as much as Microsoft's IIS.

Marketshare != Security (or lack thereof)

Re:OSX

[ratsnapple tea]

However, OS X discourages users from running applciations as root or administrator, so what a virus can actually do when running on a BSD-based OS X system is far less harmful that what a virus is free to accomplish on XP.

I don't think that's true. After all, an app doesn't need admin privs to go into someone's address book and email copies of itself (or even random shit in the user's Documents folder) to everyone.

On the bright side, I think you could argue Mac users are smarter than Windows people and are therefore less likely to blindly open executables in their inbox. Oh, and Mail.app gives you a stern warning before you can open an executable attachment. So maybe it's not all brains.

yours

Re:OSX

[gabebear]

I'd rate the IE/ActiveX vulnerability problem at #3 in why Windows has SOOO many viruses, with the "Windows is insanely popular" being slightly above it.

1. Everyone runs (most) everything in Windows as the administrator(no root exploit needed!)
2. Windows is popular(especially with "technically challenged" people)
3. Using IE/ActiveX is like F#$%ing without a condom

Every OS has root exploits and shody programs with securoty holes, but Windows and IE have to take the cake. You gotta love that in IE 5.5 SP2 they removed all plugin support except for ActiveX, yeesh.

Since they are going to break a lot of stuff in XP SP2 maybe they will make it possible for a normal person to use Windows without being an administrator all the time, although I doubt it. They will probably declare Windows XP invulnerable, since it can't have buffer overflows exploits.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

The sad truth is that they don't have Email virii not because Macs are more secure (whether they are or not) but because there's not enough of them to be interesting to malicious hackers.

How do you know this sad truth? Let's do a thought experiment, shall we? How do you propose to write a Mac OS X virus, wide-spreadable by email when the user does not have admin priviledges? Look, you don't to do the actual coding so you don't have to spend much time away from writing a virus for Windows.

There are hierarchy within the hacker community. The better and the harder the exploit, the higher one is in stature. Is it not interesting enough to be the first OS X virus writer? So, given the facts, do you really think that not a single 1337 hacking soul who don't attempt to write an OS X virus? If you say no, how do you know? Do they admit all failed attempts?

OK, now examine your own answers.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they target 60% marketshare (Apache)? Uh oh, I see a major hole in the Marketshare == Security argument. Is Office a standard install on Mac? It is funny that you point out a virus spreadable on Microsoft product and blame it on Apple while defending Microsoft for crappy OS. Very smart too since you just make the argument for the opponent.

Sorry to break it to you, but you are not the center of the universe. You don't have a problem != the rest of the population don't have a problem. Read some news some time, you can even access it from your computer you know. There are major problems caused by virii and worms. Nearly all of them are on Windows platform, exploiting Windows security holes.

Re:OSX

[gabebear]

Being able to secure boxes highly depends on what type of users you have. If you give users an inch of slack, they will hang the kernel.

Sometimes it's not possible/practical to lock user accounts down, and if you don't, you are largely dependant on them not do something stupid, like open an attachment. Add to that problem people who take laptops to and from work and home, hooking up to who knows what kind of networks, and doing who know what on them.

Most people who use Windows will get a lot of viruses. Mac users will still probably get viruses, just fewer and less deadly ones.

What kind of company do you work for?

Re:OSX

[gabebear]

Norton is good, but viruses WILL get by it. Symantec can't know about viruses before they spread.

check out sarc.com's latest vulnerabilities, none of them require people to open attachments to get infected.

If you are using Windows for day to day activity you will almost certainly get a virus no matter what you do.

Re:OSX

[drinkypoo]

You don't need to be an Administrator to infect your session with Netsky.K. Sure it will only be running when you log in, but since that's most of the time for most PCs, that's not much of a problem. You won't need to be root/Administrator to infect your own session on OSX, either, and a savvy program might be able to put itself into your crontab, and continue running itself when you are logged out. (I dunno if OSX even has user crontabs by default, but it's a real issue on many Unix systems.)

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Has an MSEE and winds up as a Help Desk Tech. Bet hubby has a PhD and works the local Starbucks.

Re:OSX

[comedian23]

Agreed, but Apache is run on servers, usually by a sysadmin, whose job it is to update software. Plus that is Open Source, which is a whole other can of worms. The person you are responding too is talking about home PCs, run by computer illiterate people. It's two totally different things.

-Comedian

Re:OSX

[aristotle-dude]

I have to add that most of userland exposed to the internet in OS X is BSD whereas the kernel is a mixture of Mach and BSD.

Please do some research next time.

Re:OSX

[dregs]

Well I manage a team that manages ~4000 workstations, 8% are macs, 92% Windows 2k /XP.
(down from 78% macs 15 years ago)

Guess what our support break down in in personal.

50% each, you do the sums, our unmanaged macs cost ~5 times as much to support as our managed PC's.
(Thats why our managed Mac project is just about to roll out, and will hopefully reduce support cost by a factor of greater than 5 for macs)

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

I happen to know them both. She left a 150k+ job to move to OU so that she could care for her mother (late stage Altzheimers) you insenstive clod.

The OU job covers her kids tuition while she is putting herself through Medical school.

To recap.. MSEE.. Working on a D.O. and a knows computers.

You should hope to be half as nice and half as smart as these people.

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

(Thats why our managed Mac project is just about to roll out, and will hopefully reduce support cost by a factor of greater than 5 for macs)

So, in other words, you weren't comparing apples with (ahem) Apples there, were you?

Perhaps a better comparison would be unmanaged PCs with unmanaged Macs, or keep your trap shut until you actually DID have your managed Mac project in place...

Re:OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should it take a "non-paper" MCSE to secure a desktop against virii? I am sure you have other more important things to do then lock down desktops.
Just get a Mac...

Re:OSX

[DA-MAN]

The only way I found to get around the problem was to get the patch on a CD and do the install w/o connecting to the network. Is that considered user error?

Uhm, XP has a "Firewall", and this "Firewall" will prevent "users" from getting "worms" if it is "enabled" before you connect to the "Internet".

Re:OSX

[Knetzar]

I should of quoted what part of the message I was replying to, which is "But, since it depends on a user downloading, extracting, and running something"

Since a user must still install w/o being connected to the network and then change a system setting in order to not get a virus, I belive that my point is still valid, that one doesn't have to explicitly run an app to in order to get a virus.

Re:OSX

[ocelotbob]

Yes, OS X has crontabs, and at, and NetInfo manager. If you think PC viruses are bad, wait until a bored person with a few dozen lines of code sets up their worm to install itself in all the different places OS X uses to store time-delayed scripts. The only thing that keeps OS X relatively malware-free is its low marketshare. Give enough people who are relatively un-tech savvy a Mac, and you'll see a just as bad, if not worse, virus/worm problem.

Re:OSX

[DA-MAN]

Since a user must still install w/o being connected to the network and then change a system setting in order to not get a virus, I belive that my point is still valid, that one doesn't have to explicitly run an app to in order to get a virus.

My point is, that by default that is true, but if you take a few seconds to enable the firewall that is no longer the case.

It was a dumb default by Microsoft, but it's not one you have to live with. It is just that, a default. A user can install all WindowsUpdates with the Microsoft Firewall enabled, and be OK. Just gotta turn it on.

Re:OSX

[fordahla]

I agree. I recently purchased a Mac, mostly due to the appeal of OSX. I've been nothing but impressed. I havent been this excited about a machine and its operating system since I purchased an Amiga in 1989. Linux sort of filled the gap for me in the mid/late 90s, but OSX has made me a Mac convert. I see it as the future. At least the future for me.

MSFT buys apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I give it about 2 years before MSFT buys apple. It will be a good move since they'll be able to kill OS X.

iPod tried to save Apple...

[bcolflesh]

But in the midst of the rescue attempt, the battery died and couldn't be replaced!

Re:iPod tried to save Apple...

[splateagle]

But in the midst of the rescue attempt, the battery died and couldn't be replaced!

aw, see this would have been funny only you went one clause too far: everybody knows iPod batteries can easily be replaced

Re:iPod tried to save Apple...

[dasmegabyte]

Obligatory link to remind moderators why this isn't +1, Funny, but instead -1, False.

Re:iPod tried to save Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

aw, see this would have been funny only you went one clause too far: everybody knows iPod batteries can easily be replaced

Yeah, it can be replaced... for $100 friggin dollars. Unless you're comfortable prying open a case that wasn't meant to be opened with a screwdriver (and possibly killing your iPod in the process, as has happened to several folks).

And it only took public uproar and a class action suit to get Apple to offer that $100 option. Before that, their "just buy a new iPod" replacement option was oh-so-helpful.

Re:iPod tried to save Apple...

[drinkypoo]

Where's the link that shows why you have no sense of humor? Oh wait, it's right here.

Welcome to last year...

[kakos]

And the year before that...

And the year before that year...

And the year before that year...

Welcome to every point in the past 10 years except NOW.

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Wudbaer]

Indeed. As already the book of Salomon in the Bible said: "There is nothing new under the sun".

Every year is the year of Linux on the desktop, Apple and BSD are dying and Microsoft will collapse soon.

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Ranger96]

Good point, but wrong reference. It's actually from Ecclesiastes (written by Solomon):
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9

Re:Welcome to last year...

[subjectstorm]

yeah . .

actually, that's in proverbs.

you still get points for knowing that Solomon authored the book - though you did spell his name wrong (or perhaps this is just an alternate spelling?)

i'm not certain that there IS no book of Salomon in perhaps the Koran or maybe in some of the Jewish holy books, but i am certain that it isn't in "the Bible".

History Lesson = Free
Obsessive Need to Correct Obscure Factual Errors = Priceless

Re:Welcome to last year...

[subjectstorm]

Dear subjectstorm:

you are a jackass. way to correct someone else with inaccurate information you jerk.

i am very much tempted to quote something about beams and motes in your eyes, but i am afraid that i would get it WRONG because i am YOU and you're a fsking retard.

in conclusion, please slap yourself/me and apologize.

sigh . . . sorry bout that. *smacks

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Stray7Xi]

Welcome to every point in the past 10 years except NOW.

Now by definition is not a point in the past 10 years.

But your Now is, well it is now.. it wasn't then. *scratches head*

But my nows aren't, except for the ones above.

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Wudbaer]

OT: The spelling for Solomon is indeed wrong in the respect that it is the German one (where I am located). The problem is that there is a popular brand of skies around here (probably also in the US) by a very similar name so I never know if it is the English spelling or the ski brand (or if they are indeed identical), so I used the German one. Mea culpa. Regarding the source in the bible: In German it is "officially" called "Prediger Salomo" (the preacher Salomo", but I think it is often (maybe wrongly) refered to over here as "The book Salomo" in colloquial language.

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying "book of Solomon" doesn't necessarily mean he was referring to a book named "The Book of Solomon". He was just been referring to a book authored by Solomon.

Getting zinged while trying to correct someone on a factual error that's really not = Embarrassing.

Re:Welcome to last year...

[Codifex Maximus]

Song of Soloman. Suleimon? Saloman? Suleman? Shalom... Salam. Whatever.

Good!

[Dirk Pitt]

Here, you won't have to sell your sole to read it

I hate having selling my fish to read the news.

Earnings

[BWJones]

Interesting because others have estimated that the iPod will add another 15 cents a share to Apple's earning this year which rises to 25 cents a share by 2006.

This is only focusing on the iPod and ignoring all other products in Apple's inventory announced and unannounced which are having large influences in their respective markets.

Re:Earnings

[leandrod]

> This is only focusing on the iPod and ignoring all other products

No, it's not. It talks about earnings and profits, and at the end of the day that's what counts. Apple is not a free software hacker that can live on Jolt Cola and cold pizza.

Apple still has the forgiveness of its shareholders because of its influence and image. But that can't be forever, no matter how many living dead New Economists try to mystify us.

I still could see Apple rebounding, if it took the plunge and went free software and clones all the way. In fact perhaps either only free software or only clones would already make a difference. You can't build a platform alone nowadays. You just see how long would MS survive if it was to build its own hardware and block clonemakers, or Dell if it was to sell exclusively its own, non-MS W32 OS.

Re:Earnings

[w3svc_animal]

I agree with you completely, but let's add a little more backgroung to your post:

Bloomberg reports: Apple Computer's sales of its iPod were up 140% in the fourth quarter of 2003, giving it a 50% share of the digital music player market. How did the company do it? With a typical Apple design that couples cool style with high technology, and with terrific marketing, featuring an ad campaign that Marian Salzman of ad agency Euro RSCG said "is about an Apple state of mind." Read the rest of the article here

In addition, a quick check of the stock analysis shows a generous 1-Year Return of 71.706%.

I don't know about you, but I would say they are doing just fine.

Facts

[Lizard_King]

"Out of the hundreds of people who were waiting outside Apple's SoHo store in the cold to buy an iPod, I could find only one whose positive experience with the music player led him to buy an Apple computer."

This is a strange statement. If the hundreds of people were waiting to buy an iPod, how would they have already had the iPod experience that would push them to purchase an Apple computer? Chicken before the egg here? As with most of the 'Apple is dying' articles we've seen over the last 15 years, this one mixes numbers without context and some strange subjective observations.

Oh yeah, BSD is dying too. And Bluetooth... =)

Re:Facts

[The I Shing]

Geez, that point, obvious as it is, went right over my head, just like must have gone over the head of the analyst.

It's like in HGtG when God exclaims, "Oh dear, I hadn't thought o that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Re:Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they are there to purchase an iPod for a friend/relative? Another for themselves? Maybe their 'positive experience' with said iPod that drove them to purchase said computer was with a friend/relative's iPod?

Nice try, tho.

Re:Facts

[drinkypoo]

The iPod functions without the use of an Apple computer. In fact, it will function to some degree without owning a computer at all.

The article examines some trends in apple's stock price and market penetration, and notes that similar trends have preceded the demise of other companies, and that Apple appears to be headed for destruction. But, this one is likely poppycock like the other ones. Still, there's a chance he's right. Apple has been quite clever about reinventing itself in the world of public opinion, even hardcore hackers would like to own their computers these days - and even run their "proper" operating system. But that alone isn't proof that Apple isn't going to go tits up in the relatively near future :)

A real post..

[thealpha]

The thought that Apple was counting on a music playback device to become a powerhouse is a joke. They are a computer firm, this is one revenue stream not the salvation of the firm. It is more likely that they want people to see how easy it is to use an iPod and then purchase a Mac for integration.
If they were counting on the iPod as their saviour, then they were doomed from the onset of the project.

part of the comments are probably true

[Anonymous Coward]

CPU sales: the G5 may be popular, that is popular for a high end machine, but the more affordable machines, the iMac and the eMac, are in need of a serious upgrade (why not a G5) to make them attractive again - these machines don't sell that well anymore (I don't have inside information, but this could be learned from various reports).

Tom, happy owner of a 2x1Ghz PowerMac

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[MKalus]

Sure, a G5 iMac would be cool. Well, actually not.

If you have ever looked inside a G5 tower you'll realize they have heat problems in there.

I don't think we'll see an upgrade to the G5 line for the iMac in quite some time, first I expect them to figure out how to cram the G5 into the Powerbook.

Right now I have a G4 iBook and love it, but I guess once the second Generation of G5 PBs is rolling around I'll upgrade.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[John Harrison]

They don't need an upgrade as much as they need a price cut. Yes, I know it won't happen.

People buying low-end computers who are not computer-savvy would love to get the pretty Mac that they see at CompUSA, but they see an eMachines box for 1/3rd the price and don't understand why the Mac might be worth it. The masses don't understand the benefits of a G5, OS X, or any of that. They are looking at price tags.

I would be interested in knowing what Apple's share of the low-end laptop market is. The iBook is actually very price-competitive. If they didn't purposely hobble it I would buy one.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[Skuld-Chan]

I think one of the reasons there won't be any G5 Imac anytime soon probably related to thermal problems.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[yabos]

And then their eMachine is hosed within a few months and they begin to hate computers, when they could have just not cheaped out and bought the iMac, been happy and have fun with it.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[phalse phace]

Well, according to this, "both the 1GHz eMac and iMac products have just recently been updated to end-of-life (EOL) status. Typically, when an Apple hardware product reaches EOL status, the goal is to deplete channel inventory in preparation for significant revisions to the product line."

So we may see single G5 iMacs and eMacs some time between now and WWDC, as the PowerMacs will most likely be all dual-processor machines.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[John Harrison]

Very true. What percentage of people aren't going to "cheap out" though? Yeah I know about the comparisons to BMW and such, but selling cars and selling computers are two different things because of two words:

software compatibility

and that on top of price frightens lots of people.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[lullabud]

Apple may not have a large market share, but those of us who use them love them. As for prices, they're definitely reasonable. Somebody else pointed out that consumers are stupid and look at the lower mhz of the mac line as a negative selling point, but I think anybody who can't sell a Mac simply based on that is a terrible salesman. There are plenty of great things about the Mac that you could sell people on, which is why I've personally seen an increase in Apple products within my circle of friends in the last year. Several long-time windows users have bought Mac's, though not switched per se, and love them. The reasons why are the selling points: Expose, no viruses, tons of free software from the OSS community, simplicity of the interface along with the polished look and feel. I think that if average Joe gets an unbiased look at both, the Mac is at least considerable, even in the low-priced market. But honestly, I'm happy with where Apple is right now. Slick, stable, unix, and without the MS sized mass of users to make it too common.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[NaugaHunter]

People buying low-end computers who are not computer-savvy would love to get the pretty Mac that they see at CompUSA

These are the same people driving Hyundais but want BMWs. Some things cost more. Would you expect BMW to sell a $9,000 car? Why not? Lot's of people by $9000 cars, they're sure to sell a lot.

What's that? They'd rather make nice cars than cheap cars? Those bums! Don't they realize the market share they could have?

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[John Harrison]

The difference here is that market share is much more self-reinforcing in the computer industry. BMW can survive forever on 3% market share. I hope that it doesn't happen but I fear that Apple will become less relevant over time and that its market share will continue to decline.

This article also seems to contradict the notion that the high profit margin on their hardware is contributing to the bottom line.

Re:part of the comments are probably true

[Anonymous Coward]

Exept the BMW that sells for twice thier hyundai is half as powerful as the cheap hyundai, why bother even offering the expensive and crappy stuff, especially when it doesn't sell. Apple need to up the performance on thier low end, or stop selling it.

iTunes may save them...

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

As a user of iTunes (mainly because I drink way too much soda during the day, and redeem free songs from Pepsi on iTunes) I have grown to really like their service. If it continues to grow (by adding on to their somewhat meager existing library) they will definitely have a new source of income online selling music. From me, anyhow.

And I may just have to go buy an iPod now to hook up to my iTunes service.

Kudos, Apple... you have got a hard-core Mac hater to use your products. I would call that an amazing success.

Re:iTunes may save them...

[tobes]

Wow, score one for the good guys! If you want to take your itms experience to the next level, I suggest checking out musicmobs (such shamless self promotion). Seriously though, it's pretty cool.

Re:iTunes may save them...

[phalse phace]

"If it continues to grow (by adding on to their somewhat meager existing library) they will definitely have a new source of income online selling music."

Such as getting The Grateful Dead to add their music to the iTMS?

Re:iTunes may save them...

[Inflatable Hippo]

iTunes made me buy an iMac.

Seriously.

OK, I was teetering on the brink when they made iTunes available for the PC - for free.

That one app convinced me that I *had* to have iTunes providing the music in my main living space and the iMac is probably the only computer I can bear to have visible there.

And now I love it, no crashes, BSOD, hangs, driver hassles etc. I can't imagine *EVER* spending *MY* money on a PC again.

And I'll probably buy an iPod next year when the capacity/price fits my needs/pocket - as it will.

And, being the geek that I am, I get a lot of friends/family asking me what to buy. And what am I telling them? Buy a mac!

So from where I'm sitting things don't look too bleak for apple.

Re:iTunes may save them...

[jsebrech]

I am going the other way around. I bought an ipod, liked it so much I started using itunes for it, and liked that so much I've decided my next PC will be a mac.

Re:iTunes may save them...

[kefa]

if apple start bundling iTunes with OSx (maybe they do already, i don't know i'm not a trendy mac user) does this mean they'll start being investigated by the anti competition crew

Re:iTunes may save them...

[Jon Abbott]

It has been bundled for quite some time actually... The difference here is that you can remove iTunes from your system easily if you want.

Re:iTunes may save them...

[Anonymous Coward]

No - they are not a monopoly

Re:iTunes may save them...

[Anim8me2]

Just curious... since when is 500,000 (or is it 600,000) considered meager?

Another "Beleaguered Company" Story

[chia_monkey]

Some of these authors need to get with the times. Just because it was trendy to talk about the "beleaguered company" back in the 90s doesn't mean all those arguements still hold water.

iPod won't save Apple? Controlling most of the mp3 player market isn't good? And this helping iTunes Music Service start up...the FIRST one that all the major labels thought was worth trying and has 50 million downloads? I'd say the iPod did a good job (especially with it's high profit margin).

Oh yeah...I guess the deal with HP doesn't amount to anything either. I'm sure all the top brass at HP was thinking "hm...how can we get more money? Hey, let's go with a product that nobody knows and that won't bring in any money...not for the company that invented it and certainly not for us".

C'mon people...get with the times. The iPod is just one thing. And a damn good thing. It's bringing a lot of money and recognition to Apple. Now add a supercomputer built from G5s at VA Tech, major enterprise software apps being ported over to Mac...um...hello...

Re:Another "Beleaguered Company" Story

[slipstick]

Whether or no Apple is dieing I can't say, but "controlling most of the mp3 market" really isn't good. The johnny-come-Dell's are just starting to ramp up their production of "iPod killers" or "iPod clones" as the case may be. An mp3 player is a commodity product as easy to replace as ketchup. If the iPod is the only thing holding Apple up than they really are in trouble. As for iTunes, well, it's breaking even and that's the best thing that can be said about it. On-line music stores are starting to pop-up all over the place, none of them make money for the people who run them. I don't see that situation lasting long, so either prices will go up and people will leave or...(I don't know what the alternative is).

At any rate, a single use device that is way too over-priced and easily duplicated can't possibly be a saviour of a company used to Billion dollar profits.

Re:Another "Beleaguered Company" Story

[chia_monkey]

An mp3 player is a commodity product as easy to replace as ketchup

A good thought and argument, but think about this. Isn't the PC (non-Mac) a commodity item also? Yet, companies like Dell are thriving despite that fact. Apple did a great job designing the iPod and marketing it. Sure, there will be companies out there that will try to unseat the iPod as the reigning champ, but based on the fact the iPod is so well known and so deeply entrenched, it will be a tough sell to kill the iPod. It will have to look as good or better, be as easy to use or easier, cost less, and be marketed like hell. Until then, Apple's stake will probably stay. Let's not forget...Windows and Office hold the title for bringing in loads of money for Microsoft. Sure there are plenty of products that are better, but since Windows and Office are so deeply entrenched inthe marketplace, they're not going to be losing out in market share and revenues anytime soon.

Re:Another "Beleaguered Company" Story

[slipstick]

Dell is in fact thriving because the PC was a commodity product. But just how long can the iPod sustain incredible profits for Apple when you start having 6 or more other makers in the same field? I'm not saying that the iPod couldn't continue to make Apple profits but not nearly as much as it does now. It will become "just another device".

Dell's profit margins right now on their PC hardware are slim,slim,slim...they just sell absolute gobs of it and they have no brick-and-mortar costs to weigh them down.

If iPod like mp3 players become as ubiquitous as a radio they will become as cheap to buy as well.

By the way, comparing iPods to Windows & Office is not valid, Windows & Office aren't commodity products they are a monopoly product. If I could replace Windows&Office as easily as I can replace an iPod, Microsoft's glory days would be gone.

If Linux ever starts making significant inroads on the desktop you will see Microsoft's profits slump like a man shot through the head. Microsoft knows this too, which is why they are making deals with anybody who has 2 pennies to rub together and threatens to move to Linux.

Re:Another "Beleaguered Company" Story

[nelsonal]

The title was misleading, they are refering to Apple's ability to drive the stock price up (it is money magazine after all). The music business caused a very significant increase in the stock price, you can go back and look at the dates of big stock movements and compare them to announcments. The question that stockholders should be asking is, "Is all the recent good news in the stock or is there still room to increse?" The G5 and iPod are both great products that have 'saved' the company, it is hard to save a company that is generating cash and has billions in the bank.
What their point appears to be is that the value investors are currently assigning to the music business is well above the value the article's author believes is "a fair value." The author isn't saying these products suck, rather these products are cool but will not generate income sufficent to justify the current stock value. You'll have to decide if you agree. Apple and Disney are two comapnies that get stockbuyers who could care less about the company's prospects but are fans.

Oh, come on

[Zog The Undeniable]

Apple has one of the strongest brands in the world. They have fiercely loyal customers (no, I'm not one of them). They have a reasonable licensing policy for their OS (try and get a family multi-computer discount for XP Home Edition, ha ha). Anything they make with an "i" in the name gets snapped up by said loyal customers. If obscure Taiwanese component manufacturers with virtually no brand image can make money, Apple should be coining it in. Jobs just needs another big idea like the iMac and the iPod and everyone will forget about Apple's demise for a few years.

Re:Oh, come on

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs just needs another big idea like the iMac and the iPod and everyone will forget about Apple's demise for a few years.

How about an iDea?

Re:Oh, come on

[drinkypoo]

On the other hand Apple charges for minor-revision updates (10.x to 10.y) whereas Microsoft usually doesn't do that. Now you could argue that windows 2000 to windows xp is just such a beast, but they are intended for different things, and xp hasn't actually superseded 2000, it's intended to be used alongside it. On the other hand, 2003 is superseding 2000 on servers. Anyway service packs which I equate with minor revision updates are and have always been free, and probably always will be free.

anyway in summary, Apple's OS licensing is more reasonable for Apple than for customers. It keeps them coming back and paying for the OS over and over again. The discount is just to make you think you saved money.

Re:Oh, come on

[Jimithing DMB]

I have no idea why you think 10.1 to 10.2 or 10.2 to 10.3 are minor upgrades. They are major upgrades. In fact, the Darwin core is even updated. For instance, 10.2.x is Darwin 6.x, but 10.3.x is Darwin 7.x. All of the OS Ten releases have the same "major" version number so that you don't have to go around saying "OS Eleven."

And of course, minor updates are free. I didn't pay a cent to upgrade my 10.2.0 to 10.2.8 and I didn't pay a cent to upgrade my 10.3.0 to 10.3.3. Furthermore, I actually got a few new features even within those minor upgrades.

Yeah, I pay for an updated OS about once a year, but so what. Every year I am treated with so many new featues that the meager $129 price tag is well worth it. I can't remember the last time I thought that paying for a Windows upgrade was money well spent, and I've been a Mac user for a shorter time than that.

Re:Oh, come on

[CatOne]

I disagree that 10.2 to 10.3 is any different than Windows 2000 to Windows XP.

Windows XP is most certainly the successor to Windows 2000 -- it's intended to replace it, on the workstation/client side. XP is not a server OS, that's what Server 2003 is for.

10.2 to 10.3 is not a "minor" update -- there are certainly as many differences between 10.2 and 10.3 as there are between Windows 95 and 98, or Windows NT and Windows 2000, for example.

Re:Oh, come on

[drinkypoo]

Version numbers are major.minor (and after that there is some debate about what comes next; usually small or tiny, or small then tiny, and optionally teensy.)

As for windows updates being worth it; Windows 98 brought us a new filesystem, dramatically more stability, and so on. Windows NT4 gave us support for reasonably-sized volumes. Windows 2000 is clearly a worthy upgrade, it gives you (over NT4) USB, real plug and pray support, and so on. So I don't see how you could say that windows upgrades have been any less featureful than macos upgrades, and again we're talking major versions.

If they are major upgrades, increment the major revision. If they aren't (I've used 10.1 and 10.2 and they seemed like basically the same thing to me, I haven't used 10.3 but it adds what primarily, a new rendering engine? So maybe it should be 11 but I don't really think so.) So regardless, they are minor upgrades, and you have to pay for them. I find that annoying.

Re:Oh, come on

[Anonymous Coward]

Official Windows version Numbers

Windows 2000 : 5.0
Windows XP : 5.1

Look it up sometime. XP is a .1 release.

Official VS Releases:

VS .Net : 7.0
VS .Net 2003 : 7.1

At least on this one you could get it at a reduced price, but they still charged for it.

What makes up a . release is entirely company decided. Apple isn't increaing that number because they've spent a lot promoting OS X. X is now a brand, so changing it isn't worth it to them unless they have something huge.

Re:Oh, come on

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft obviously doesn't believe what you are saying. Win2000 is version 5.0 and XP is version 5.1. Thats why they stopped using version numbers to promote their releases. Thats why apple is doing the same (Jaguar, Panther). No one connects version numbers to what is and isn't sold anymore. I work for a very large business software company and we sell .x releases all the time.

Re:Oh, come on

[Jimithing DMB]

Version numbers are major.minor (and after that there is some debate about what comes next; usually small or tiny, or small then tiny, and optionally teensy.)

I know perfectly well what version numbers are supposed to be, and like I said, Darwin does follow that version numbering scheme. However, OS X follows an Apple marketing scheme where everything is version 10 and minor version numbers are major upgrades. Sure, it's the opposite of what most other companies do and apparently some feeble minds do get confused because they feel that version numbers somehow indicate the amount of updates. Most companies will bump their version number sky high to trick people into thinking there are major uprades. Apple does exactly the opposite, they issue major updates with minor version number increments which apparently confuses some people.

As for windows updates being worth it; Windows 98 brought us a new filesystem, dramatically more stability, and so on. Windows NT4 gave us support for reasonably-sized volumes. Windows 2000 is clearly a worthy upgrade, it gives you (over NT4) USB, real plug and pray support, and so on. So I don't see how you could say that windows upgrades have been any less featureful than macos upgrades, and again we're talking major versions.

First of all, it was 95 OSR2 that brought FAT32, not Windows 98. Secondly, I expect my operating system to be stable. I find it appaling that I'm supposed to pay for an upgrade to enhance stability. Apparently you think it's a worthy expense! NT 4 was certainly leaps and bounds ahead of 3.51 but there's no reason MS couldn't have made a patch to 3.51 to support larger volumes. It seems MS is always lagging behind the current hardware. Another example of that is NT 4's lack of USB, Plug and Play, and even power management! At least MS did alllow some manufacturers to ship an NT 4 with a power management add-on. All of those features were fairly common when NT 4 was released and yet MS expected you to pay to upgrade to 2000 just to get those features?

So far you haven't listed a single new feature. Sure, you've got some better hardware support and stability but I don't think I should have to pay for that!

If they are major upgrades, increment the major revision. If they aren't (I've used 10.1 and 10.2 and they seemed like basically the same thing to me, I haven't used 10.3 but it adds what primarily, a new rendering engine? So maybe it should be 11 but I don't really think so.) So regardless, they are minor upgrades, and you have to pay for them. I find that annoying.

What difference does the version number make? It's a number, get over it. It's not as if there is some real standard for them anyway. There are several different standards to choose from. Hell, Solaris is still technically on version 2.x and has been for years except Sun simply dropped the 2. and just started calling them 7, 8, 9 instead of 2.7, 2.8, 2.9. Apple is simply doing the opposite.

10.2 was a major improvement upon 10.1. First and foremost, it was faster than its predecessor (gee, imagine that). It also had an updated sherlock, a much improved Mail application, a calendar, address book, updated iTunes, more UNIX utilities, iChat (probably the nicest AIM client out there), and many, many more.

Panther brought even more speed improvements, an improved Finder with a sidebar, improved open and save dialogs, much better Windows file server browsing, faxing, not to mention Safari and X11, which were even available in prerelease state for 10.2 customers.

What did Windows XP give you over 2000? Faster boot up time, slower overall, a ghastly default theme, an improved start menu (the XP menu really is nicer), a file browser that hides even more detail from you making it damn near impossible to admin a windows machine without changing 6 options from their default values, a Media player that looks like a cross between QuickTime, iTunes, and a chicken that just got run over by a semi while trying to cross the road, an e-mail client (Outlook Express) that hasn't been updated significantly since the Windows 98 days and still barely passes the minimum requirements to be called an e-mail client. Did I miss anything?

Re:Oh, come on

[jeffgeno]

What did Windows XP give you over 2000?

By far the biggest advance is Remote Desktop access. Using that and a VPN connection gives our users the ability to work at home as if they were sitting at their office machine. It's worth the upgrade cost alone.

Other updates include an actual built-in firewall, nice digital camera wizards with better support for removable media, better generic video drivers, native USB 2.0 support, a new film strip view for directories with photos in them, fast user switching in a non-domain environment, prettier icons, Cleartype (which is much nicer than Apple's attempt at it), basic image capturing options, a network performance monitor in the Task Manager, system state saves to allow roll-back in case of a bad install, and better support for inputting in other languages. That's just off the top of my head. XP is an actual upgrade from 2000, not just more of the same with a different look.

Re:Oh, come on

[Jimithing DMB]

What did Windows XP give you over 2000?

By far the biggest advance is Remote Desktop access. Using that and a VPN connection gives our users the ability to work at home as if they were sitting at their office machine. It's worth the upgrade cost alone.

I just use VNC. It's free, easy to install, and clients are available for just about anything. On Mac there is the excellent Chicken of the VNC client. Still, I agree it's a nice feature done fairly well although VNC on Win32 works quite well enough for me.

Other updates include an actual built-in firewall,

Windows 2000 had a built in firewall, although it was pretty limited. XP has a slightly better interface. It's still not near as powerful as Linux's iptables or BSD's ipfw. For that you have to buy ISA.

nice digital camera wizards with better support for removable media, better generic video drivers,

Ugh. The digital camera support pisses me off. Every time I insert a CD or other removeable media it asks me what I want to do. Why doesn't it just open up the root folder of the media and let me decide if I want to do something else.

The generic video drivers are good, but it's just using the VESA BIOS, nothing really special although it helps when you don't have proper video drivers installed yet.

native USB 2.0 support,

Hmm, I got that in a minor update to OS 10.2. Kind of moot though since FireWire has been on Macs for years now.

a new film strip view for directories with photos in them,

Are you speaking of "thumbnail" view? Windows 2000 had that.

fast user switching in a non-domain environment,

Key: In a non-domain environment. It also doesn't work with Novell. What a pain! On my Mac I can fast user switch and still stay connected to my network resources. Same thing on my Linux machines. I find the fast user switching of XP to be inferior to that provided by other OS.

prettier icons, Cleartype (which is much nicer than Apple's attempt at it),

The pretty icons are nice and so are the clear fonts although I'm not really sure what you mean about Apple's attempt at it. It looks fine to me, although many Carbon apps unfortunately turn it off because their developers haven't modernized their drawing routines.

basic image capturing options, a network performance monitor in the Task Manager,

Network performance monitor is nice, and the basic image capturing is certainly another long overdue feature.

system state saves to allow roll-back in case of a bad install,

Yeah, and you'll need it too! ;-)

and better support for inputting in other languages.

This is nice, something that the 10.1 to 10.2 and 10.2 to 10.3 upgrades also had. OS 10.2 was also the first version to support the native Hawaiian language.

That's just off the top of my head. XP is an actual upgrade from 2000, not just more of the same with a different look.

I guess I just don't find most of these very thrilling. Sure, some of them are upgrades compared to the previous version of Windows but most of them are still done better on Mac or even Linux. The last upgrade that excited me was Windows 2000 simply because it finally put the good things about Windows 9x onto the NT kernel (again, long long long overdue). XP is certainly an upgrade, but I paid for 2000 and I can't see spending money on XP especially now that I use a Mac for my primary computer and relegate my IBM compatibles to running Linux.

MS has just been piling on half-assed feature after feature and I don't see much being done to actually improve usability in any significant way. I'm no long time Mac user but I've thought for a while now that Microsoft software has not been improving very much and using a Mac has made me realize that using a computer should be effortless.

Oh, this is an iPod story: I have a second generation 20 GB. Ironically, I bought it AFTER having bought a Mac, not before.

Re:Oh, come on

[jeffgeno]

I just use VNC. It's free, easy to install, and clients are available for just about anything. On Mac there is the excellent Chicken of the VNC client. Still, I agree it's a nice feature done fairly well although VNC on Win32 works quite well enough for me.

VNC is a vastly inferior way of connecting remotely. The screen isn't masked, it doesn't allow access to be controlled on the user level, and the responsiveness isn't even close. Remote Desktop has clients for all versions of desktop Windows, Pocket PC, and OSX. I think there's a Linux version as well (but obviously not from Microsoft).

Ugh. The digital camera support pisses me off. Every time I insert a CD or other removeable media it asks me what I want to do. Why doesn't it just open up the root folder of the media and let me decide if I want to do something else.

Because you didn't tell it to do that? Right click on the drive in My Computer, choose Properties, and AutoPlay. Make all your default action selections in there.

Are you speaking of "thumbnail" view? Windows 2000 had that.

No, the Filmstrip view. All pictures are tumbnailed across one row on the bottom of a window. The rest of the window is the currently highlighted pictures scaled to fit with some control buttons. It's extremely fast and handy for dealing with lots of pictures.

The pretty icons are nice and so are the clear fonts although I'm not really sure what you mean about Apple's attempt at it. It looks fine to me, although many Carbon apps unfortunately turn it off because their developers haven't modernized their drawing routines.

If Apple's smoothed fonts look "fine" to you, Cleartype would look spectacular. It's a much better text rendering engine and makes working on an LCD screen that much nicer.

As for the other things, XP isn't the first version of Windows to support inputting in other languages, it's just better than in the past. USB 2.0 isn't completely new, it's just supported without manufacturers' drivers. And brushing off stored system states? Any computer can be screwed by bad drivers, regarless of OS, XP simply provides you with a safety net.

You obviously love your Mac very much and have never used XP. I'm not telling you that you have to, but claiming there's nothing new from Windows 2000 is completely false. Many of the features are well worth the upgrade price to people who actually use Windows.

RE: iPod story, I decided against it and got a Zen Xtra. $250 for 40GB, uses standard power/data connectors, and does everything I need while I wait for the next generation of digital music player.

Re:Oh, come on

[Jimithing DMB]

Ugh. The digital camera support pisses me off. Every time I insert a CD or other removeable media it asks me what I want to do. Why doesn't it just open up the root folder of the media and let me decide if I want to do something else.

Because you didn't tell it to do that? Right click on the drive in My Computer, choose Properties, and AutoPlay. Make all your default action selections in there.

Why should I have to? The only choice for removable media in OS X is to have it mount on the desktop and if it's a CD to automatically open a Finder window to its root directory. If it's a camera, iPhoto usually grabs it though Image Capture would be another choice for more advanced users.

Basically, I don't see why I need to be asked when it would be perfectly acceptable to pick some sane default. Sane default does not mean automatically run programs behind my back (i.e. CD-ROM Autorun).

Are you speaking of "thumbnail" view? Windows 2000 had that.

No, the Filmstrip view. All pictures are tumbnailed across one row on the bottom of a window. The rest of the window is the currently highlighted pictures scaled to fit with some control buttons. It's extremely fast and handy for dealing with lots of pictures.

Ah yes, now I remember. I will say I haven't seen an equivalent of this on Mac. iPhoto would be nice for this if only it didn't require you to put all your photos into your iPhoto library.

If Apple's smoothed fonts look "fine" to you, Cleartype would look spectacular. It's a much better text rendering engine and makes working on an LCD screen that much nicer.

I've used XP on laptops and OS X on laptops and honestly I haven't seen a clear difference.

As for the other things, XP isn't the first version of Windows to support inputting in other languages, it's just better than in the past. USB 2.0 isn't completely new, it's just supported without manufacturers' drivers. And brushing off stored system states? Any computer can be screwed by bad drivers, regarless of OS, XP simply provides you with a safety net.

Well, it's hard to be screwed by bad vendor drivers if you have so few of them. Apple supports out of the box just about anything you'd want to plug in to your computer. The only vendor drivers I have are for my Maxtor FW harddrive (because the standard Apple one is buggy unfortunately) and for my Sonica USB audio output. At work I don't think I have a single third party driver installed.

The argument here is that you can get Windows drivers for nearly any piece of hardware but I wonder if the $9.99 special is really worth the trouble. Even on a Windows machine I don't see the sense in buying off-brand hardware. Honestly, I've not had to use the roll back feature though I have had to recently boot a 2000 machine into safe mode to uninstall a bad video driver. The other thing is I've over the years acquired enough knowledge about Windows to know how to fix it without needing rollback. I acquired the equivalent knowledge for Linux and OS X in much less time simply because more information is out there.

You obviously love your Mac very much and have never used XP. I'm not telling you that you have to, but claiming there's nothing new from Windows 2000 is completely false. Many of the features are well worth the upgrade price to people who actually use Windows.

Hmm, I thought it was more obvious that I had used XP. :-) Certainly if you are locked in to Windows then the upgrade price is worth it but I've seen better desktop features coming from Linux distributions lately which is really saying something!

RE: iPod story, I decided against it and got a Zen Xtra. $250 for 40GB, uses standard power/data connectors, and does everything I need while I wait for the

Re:Oh, come on

[drinkypoo]

Windows 95 OSR2 was a service release, you couldn't even buy it. Most people got fat32 with Windows 98. As for not being willing to pay for stability improvements, I guess you didn't use system 7, because most people would have paid any amount of money to get away from that piece of crap, specifically for stability reasons. (For the average user, OSX offers little over OS8, except a forced upgrade in hardware.)

P.S. I mentioned several new features. Thanks though. Want some more? Windows 2000 server got remote desktop connection (winframe) and wlbs clustering (wolfpack) not to mention Active Directory to replace the aging Windows Domain model. (I have 'issues' with its DNS-centricism, but at least it appears to be no less secure than, say, netinfo.) I agree that lookout express is crappy and should be replaced but the fact that they are not upgrading some things has no bearing on the things they ARE upgrading.

Oh and XP is not slower overall in a meaningful way on a vaguely modern system, especially with a decent amount of ram. Now admittedly a lot of PC users out there have some slow stuff but they have the option to upgrade just their motherboard and such, so at least when windows users have to upgrade (Actually a 1.4GHz machine, which is practically free now, is more than plenty for XP, even for basic gaming) they can do so incrementally. But now we're getting into the usual mac/pc jihad.

Now if you want to cite the bundled applications, we could talk about WMP9 (which has higher quality than Quicktime on all but high-bitrate streams), Windows Movie Maker, the windows TV crap, and so on, but I won't bother. Besides iTunes is available for PC :P And, as silly as Windows Media Player is (most of its problems are actually related to AVI containers) it gets the job done pretty well. I don't WANT to have to use multiple interfaces to play multiple types of media.

Re:Oh, come on

[drinkypoo]

Windows NT 4 had port filtering by IP, you could default allow or deny for tcp, udp, and maybe icmp but I don't remember and I'm too lazy to install it to find out. VNC does work ok but it's slow. It's all slow over even a decent internet connection but on a lan you can play a decent little video stream with audio over the network, which every so often is something I want to do, believe it or not.

The film strip view is like a film strip across the bottom (thumbnails) with a fairly sizable view of whatever it is (so long as IE, WiMP, or the windows imaging system can render it) at the top - as big as the window will allow. It's really quite nice, and I have a feeling that it would be easily implemented in javascript or something. for all I know it's been done in vbscript. I shudder...

The USB 2.0 support thing is just that we have Unified drivers that come with the OS now. PCs have of course had the hardware since it was around, more or less. It is after all the wide market, and knocking off a PCI card is cheap these days, especially if you can get your mitts on a reference design. Then people usually grub up the drivers before they build them and send them out to you, the bastards. I was kind of jealous of mac users who got firewire in their systems, but then PC firewire cards dropped to about $25 for a retail box with drivers, a manual (useless of course, but aren't they always) and a cable. My new motherboard, of course, has 1394 built on (only 400Mbps though) along with GigE, PATA hardware RAID, SATA RAID, USB 2, etc. I paid $230 for CPU (XP 2500+) MB and fan, not too bad. I think I could have saved a little bit, this was a while ago now though.

Anyway I personally feel that XP really IS just a minor upgrade from 2000. However remember that there is no Windows 2000 home edition. Windows XP is the upgrade from Windows 98. Windows 2000 is lacking only one thing that Windows XP has, which is remote desktop connection. It would be nice to see Microsoft slip that into another service pack for Windows 2000 (which I suspect will be up to about sp9a and a boatload of hotfixes by the time longhorn is released.)

Now I have really never used OSX on a nice machine so I can't speak to how effortless it can be, I guess. But I have used it on a G3 and frankly I didn't find it any less effort than windows. Mind you I have antivirus software on my PC, and I keep it up to date, is that the hard part? The whole time I had macs, I had to do that same stuff. I've never had a PC wiped out by a virus that I know of, but I had plenty of trouble with them on macs. Disinfectant and Virex together finally saved me, but it was a real problem. I'm sure there's not problems like that on OSX, but the fact that users are used to entering the Administrator password to install shit means that they will probably be easily tricked into punching it in for anything. Oh no, not all of 'em, there's plenty of smart people (just with more money than me) using Macs. But, some of them. Possibly a percentage comparable to those people who open all their attachments.

Re:Oh, come on

[Jimithing DMB]

Now I have really never used OSX on a nice machine so I can't speak to how effortless it can be, I guess. But I have used it on a G3 and frankly I didn't find it any less effort than windows. Mind you I have antivirus software on my PC, and I keep it up to date, is that the hard part? The whole time I had macs, I had to do that same stuff. I've never had a PC wiped out by a virus that I know of, but I had plenty of trouble with them on macs. Disinfectant and Virex together finally saved me, but it was a real problem. I'm sure there's not problems like that on OSX, but the fact that users are used to entering the Administrator password to install shit means that they will probably be easily tricked into punching it in for anything. Oh no, not all of 'em, there's plenty of smart people (just with more money than me) using Macs. But, some of them. Possibly a percentage comparable to those people who open all their attachments.

Well, I don't "bleed 6 colors" as the saying goes. I didn't use Macs before OS X though I know enough about OS 9 to make it work properly and even to use it to do some system recovery. I started on the Mac with 10.1 and had been using primarly Linux at home. I started familiarising myself with OS X around January of 2002 and started porting my program to it around June of that year after putting the finishing touches on the Windows version, which I developed on a Linux machine with Win4Lin for testing.

From time to time I'd play around with the Mac a little bit. I started out just using it as an expensive radio (iTunes) and started working my way around it a bit. I made myself use it as it was intended to be used. I used the one-button mouse; I learned some of the keyboard shortcuts. I even compiled my program and tried out the Mac version just to see how much work was ahed of me. Note that I developed it with wxWindows and used autoconf and automake for my build system so moving to OS X was a breeze. The main problem was that wxMac was just not there yet.

I don't usually worry too much about viruses. As you mention, I'm required to enter an administrator password to do anything significant, even if I'm running as an administrator, which I don't but most Mac users do. Even for basic users I think there is at least some basic alarm that goes off when something asks for your password. Sure, some people will just blindly do anything but at least the people who have a functioning brain have a chance to stop a virus or other malware from entering their system.

Shortly after Jaguar was released I purchased a G4/500 for myself. Not as fast as the G4 DP/1GHz at work but it's enough. I just added some RAM bringing it up to 512 and the slowness is gone. It's still not suitable for compiling software but I have ssh access to the machine at work and rsync is very handy at shuttling files from one to the other.

To truly appreciate OS X I guess you need to be a little bit of a UNIX geek. But what also makes OS X great is that its easy to use for people of all skill levels. My mom had a Sony VAIO laptop running Windows XP (well, 2000 and then the free upgrade to XP). I did my best to make it run nicely. I made sure her account didn't have admin priviledges so she couldn't get viruses (and she didn't because she's smart and doesn't open attachments anyway). She was using the thumbnail and later the filmstrip view to manage her photos. I had a few other things on there.

I constantly got calls for help. She couldn't seem to remember how to do things. After I had been using Macs for a while I finally decided she should use one. The difference was clear. You don't have to really think to use a Mac. Once you've used one for a little bit of time the interface starts to become second nature. It's amazing when it finally happens and you just start using your computer without really thinking about how to do things. That is what makes the Mac a great experience. Sadly, you have to actually use a Mac for a couple of months bef

Re:Oh, come on

[Squozen]

(For the average user, OSX offers little over OS8, except a forced upgrade in hardware.)

*cough*real multitasking, security and stability*cough*

Re:too expensive

[BlanketLord]

It seems to me that the entire PC game market is slowing down. The most popular games now are of the MMO class, most likely due to their addictive nature. With the way console gaming is increasing, I think not pursueing a game market may actually have been a good idea. The thing that hurts apple the most, in my opinion, is the fact that they cannot call their Processor 4 GHZ. The target market is consumers who desire ease of use, but this same market likes big numbers. Apple's big numbers come with an even bigger price tag, which makes it difficult when Dell can offer a 3 GHZ machine for 700 dollars.

What they're basically saying is...

[phillymjs]

...Apple is nothing without the iPod, and the cash iPod sales bring in.

To which I say, where's the companion article about Microsoft's dire financial situation? I mean, if they didn't have Windows and Office income subsidizing all their money-losing products (which is almost everything else they make), they'd be hemmorhaging money in a way that would shame the Pentagon.

By the way, Apple's computer sales are down because the models are stale and a refresh is due (or overdue, in the case of the G5). I've got several thousand dollars sitting in the bank, just waiting for the new G5s to be announced, and I am far from alone. And the iMac and eMac lines were very recently EOL'd and should get updated soon as well.

~Philly

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[Gr8Apes]

Heck, some of us are waiting for 1 of 2 things to happen: Apple laptops to come down in price, or move up the CPU chain. (Basically, current pricing for Powerbooks is too high)

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apples computer sales are full of shit.

Apple has been mis-leading its shareholders.

See ThinkSecret

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[Minna Kirai]

where's the companion article about Microsoft's dire financial situation? I mean, if they didn't have Windows and Office income subsidizing all their money-losing products

Not remotely similar. There's nothing magic about the iPod... no intellectual property, no great technical challenge to build them. Apple was the first company to produce a compact high capacity music player, but they won't be the last. If iPods are highly profitable, then other companies will get into the market, and margins will be pushed down towards commodity levels.

Microsoft's position with Office, however, is basically sustainable. There is some intellectual property in that product. And in terms of total complexity, Office is more difficult to design than an iPod. Most importantly, to compete with Office, you'd have to track a moving target.

If something like StarOffice ever becomes compatible enough that it's really taking away Office sales, Microsoft can just push an obligatory "security" patch to their customers to make it incompatible again. It may take finesse and trickery, but Microsoft has many tactics it can use to prevent effective competitors to Office.

Apple has no such paths open to it.

(For more detail, consider that MS Office is a "communication technology" and falls under Metcalfe's Law, while no network effect protects the iPod)

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[yabos]

I don't think the iPod is so easy to duplicate. It took a lot of engineering to get all that hardware in such a small space. There aren't any that I know of that can match the size and capacity of the iPod. Notice how I said size. All the other ones I've seen are much bigger.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[timbloom]

"By the way, Apple's computer sales are down because the models are stale and a refresh is due (or overdue, in the case of the G5). I've got several thousand dollars sitting in the bank, just waiting for the new G5s to be announced, and I am far from alone. And the iMac and eMac lines were very recently EOL'd and should get updated soon as well." Also, some people should keep in mind how many people want a G5 but don't want a 1st revision of a computer family. I would expect to see higher sales of the second revision and that the drop in sales of G5s isn't because nobody wants them, they just made the logical choice of waiting for the new revision, and not buying first generation hardware.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to the Apple refurb section. The prices there are really good and you get the same 1 year warranty.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[cens0r]

Rio Karma...iRiver iHP-20 and iHP-40. They don't seem much bigger to me. They compete well on size. They more than compete on features. They're extremly competitive on price. I guess the only thing the iPod has is the UI and that's a subjective thing.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[jsebrech]

Name one person who owns both a rio or iriver and an ipod and thinks the ipod isn't the best mp3 player of the two.

That rio or iriver buyers say their product is just as good as an ipod or better is just as unsurprising as ipod users saying the ipod is just as good or better than anything the competition offers. I want to see the opinion of people who aren't biased by how they spent their money, because they spent it on everything.

I'm an ipod owner. It was either the karma or the ipod. The price was the same, the hd size in both cases big enough, and the physical size a pretty good match. In the end I decided the ipod had a bigger community, a better interface, and a nicer look. Yes, on features the karma is an even match, but those intangibles are what sells ipods. I still think I made the right choice, but I realise my opinion is biased.

Geeks might care about such things like disk size, and whether it has ethernet support, but guess what, the majority of electronics buyers are not geeks, or even male. And normal people care more about how something looks, and how easy it is to use, than about whether it does xizzy, has foobar or supports quux. The ipod is the undisputable king in the look and feel department, and that is why it's outselling anything else.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[Minna Kirai]

The ipod is the undisputable king in the look and feel department, and that is why it's outselling anything else.

Look & feel is not protectable intellectual property, as Apple has learned in repeated lost lawsuits.

Any advantages they have in that area are fair game for a Taiwanese knockoff to sell for 60% less. The iPod just isn't a viable long-term profit-center for a computer+OS company.

Re:What they're basically saying is...

[cens0r]

I don't know too many people who own both an iPod and another HD player. That would be construed as overkill :). I do have a creative Nomad IIc flash player and a iRiver SlimX CD/MP3 player.

So I am very familiar with the iRiver product line and for me I would buy the iHP-20 in a second over the iPod. The only reason I don't is because the iHP-20 does not as of yet support FLAC. Looks are unimportant to me, because the thing stays in my man bag. I already have a nice pair of Audio-Technica headphones, so I'm not going to impress people with the iPod headphones. So I would have to base it on value and to me the iRiver player has more value. The fact that it supports more formats, as frequent updates (i expect that they will support FLAC soon), and FM tuner, and a remote (important when the player is in the bag) are all pluses.

I do like the Rio Karma. However, it doesn't have an FM tuner (which I really want) and I don't believe it comes with a remote which is important (see above). I also wish it worked as a removable drive.

Maybe I'm too much of geek to make a fair judgement. But I have compared the MP3 players, and prefer ones other than the iPod. And I'm not an apple basher by any means. I have a 450MHz G3 iMac in my house and will be buying a new iBook as soon as I can afford it.

With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[nazzdeq]

Apple has 4 billion in cash and zero debt. As the Money magazine article stated, Apple makes more money from the interest on their pile of cash than they do in profit. But, they make 60 some million on both. That's 120 million a year in profit and no debt. The guy who wrote this article has an axe to grind and that's all. I would love to be in Apple's position.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, 4 billion in cash would buy a shitload of beer!

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Petronius]

Microsoft has been in a similar situation: they make a ton of money from investment income, not necessarily from sales. I don't hear Money complaining...

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[moehoward]

So what. Anyone can get a normal return on their money in bonds and cash instruments. The profit that you attribute to interest is meaningless and provides zero incentive for a person to buy stock in the company.

A company must make MORE than a normal return to provide incentive to buy its stock.

Isn't Apple/Jobs smart enough to find better ways to invest their money than letting it sit in a pile of cash? This is the crux of Apple's problem. Lack of innovation/creativity, believe it or not. They don't have the vision to create/innovate even when given an almost unlimited amount of cash.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

> They don't have the vision to create/innovate even when given an almost unlimited amount of cash.

To paraphrase Charles Babbage: "I am not rightly able to comprehend the kind of confusion that could make such a statement."

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[slipstick]

Actually, reread the excerpts. They don't imply that Apple made $120 million, they imply that Apple made $69 million and almost all that $69 million was from interest. There is some overlap in the numbers but that's probably due to rounding. So they made $1 million in profits due to operations and $69 million in profits on interest. The first $69 million in the excerpts says "total profit", thus the reason I say there was probably rounding done.

In other words Apple could stop producing any product and just invest they're cash. They would save themselves alot of trouble. I can't see how that is a favorable situation for a technology company, a money market company maybe, but not a technology company.

Note that I have nothing against Apple, I don't particularly want them to live or die, it really doesn't matter to me, I've never bought their products and until they sell something worth having I never will. "Worth" here implies either significantly better than what I have or significantly cheaper than they currently price their overpriced commodity products.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has 4 billion in cash and zero debt. As the Money magazine article stated, Apple makes more money from the interest on their pile of cash than they do in profit. But, they make 60 some million on both. That's 120 million a year in profit and no debt. The guy who wrote this article has an axe to grind and that's all. I would love to be in Apple's position.

AAPL has 370M shares outstanding. The cash per share is $12.96, earnings per share is $0.37, last year earnings growth of 6.2%. One share sells for about $26. As comparison, DELL has cash per share of $2.01, earnings per share of $1.01, earnings growth of 70%. One share sells for about $33. MSFT: cash per share $4.89, earnings per share $0.82, earnings growth 27%. One share will costs you around $25.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has 4 billion in cash and zero debt. As the Money magazine article stated, Apple makes more money from the interest on their pile of cash than they do in profit. But, they make 60 some million on both. That's 120 million a year in profit and no debt. The guy who wrote this article has an axe to grind and that's all. I would love to be in Apple's position.

The numbers you quote are pretty meaningless. If you've invested 100M in a company that makes 120M profit a year, that's fantastic. If you've invested 100B in a company that makes 120M profit a year, that's awful. Do they have plans to earn higher returns than interest rate on their pile of cash? If they don't, the money should be returned to the shareholders. I'm sure they know how to put it into a savings account themselves.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[overunderunderdone]

Do they have plans to earn higher returns than interest rate on their pile of cash? If they don't, the money should be returned to the shareholders

Yeah, but it makes sense for Apple to hold on to a large cash reserve. Their business model is largely based on "innovating" - producing and/or popularizing brand new products & technologies. It makes sense that they would like a pile of cash on hand, even if it's getting a lousy return, so that they can be flexible and exploit the opportunity if one of their technology innovations "hits it out of the park". It would be tragic if they come up with that one killer product but then were slow to follow it up because they didn't have the resources on hand to do so. A competitor with deeper pockets and without the R&D costs to recoup could come along and eat their lunch.

Alternatively with that kind of cash they can buy up someone else that "hits one out of the park" but doesn't have the resources to exploit it themselves. Apple is certainly not above buying "innovation" - iTunes itself used to be SoundJam. So far all those purchases have been small, but there may be bigger fish out there that Jobs sees as critical to rounding out his empire. I would not be at all surprised to see Apple making another string of purchases to go after other niches the way they bought up FinalCut Pro, Nothing Real, Emagic, Prismo Graphics etc. in their effort to dominate film/video & audio production. Apple purchasing the market leading 3D software packages wouldn't surprise me at all. Do the same thing they did with the film/video & audio packages - drop the price for the Mac version so much that the difference can buy you a new G5 and eventually drop the Windows version - Get an entire industry to "switch" - they've done it before.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[CarrionBird]

But with 4B in the bank and no debt, why do they care if people are buying thier stock?

The high level guys with big slabs of Apple stock would care, but why would the company as a whole?

Should they not be more concerned with making a profit and staying in the black than with making investment bankers money?

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[RockClimbingFool]

Who is this "they" you speak of? "they" ARE the investment bankers. actually, "they" are the majority share holders that want to make money. their investment in apple doesn't increase unless there is demand for apple stock.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Offering stock's mostly just a good way to raise money for growth (not to say there aren't better ways). That said, one of the reasons they can't/won't go private is that they may not be able to afford to buy back all their stock.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful point -- it's been a long time since Apple has done something truly revolutionary -- probably the Newton. (The iPod is just a commodity harddrive with a nice interface -- it was not a big R&D project for Apple.) Unfortunatley the Macbois won't mod you up.

To a large degree, Apple is coasting on their reputaiton as an innovator. But it's Dell's world now, so maybe that's necessary. Maybe Apple should just spend a billion or so to buy a few points of marketshare.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[CarrionBird]

they = Apple, the company and it's leadership.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[RockClimbingFool]

you are acting like Apple and its stockholders are two separate entities. They are one in the same and want demand for their stockholdings.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[nazzdeq]

Well, my iMac is better than my box running Redhat and my iPod is the best mp3 player on the market. So both are probaby significantly better than what you have, but that's a matter of opinion. Before OS X, I admit, I wouldn't go near Apple products either. But it's a whole new ball game now, especially with the G5 chips.

Re:With 4 billion in cash and no debt ??

[slipstick]

But that's just it "in your opinion". As well I already have an mp3 player that suits just fine for running/workouts. I don't need or want 1000 or 10000 poor quality songs on a disk. MP3 sucks. It's only slightly better than AM(yeah a bit of an exageration, but MP3's are no where near CD quality). The first player that comes with an 80GB harddrive and plays flac files I'll look at buying. But than it must be able to plug in to my home stereo and my car stereo and not be an overpriced branded device.

As for your iMac, well I'm glad you like it. I have nothing personally against Apple trust me, but it's overpriced and there is absolutely nothing on the Mac that I would want to use or find better than on my Linux box. I'm not going to get in to a pissing match either, the G5 chips may be better but there's debate on that, especially now with Athlon 64's out thus they aren't "significantly" better.

Fancy case designs and overpriced/proprietary hardware doesn't float my boat. When I say it has to be significant it's got to be like night to day. Not like an orange and a tangerine.

Let's get this straight, "significantly better" is so self-evident that everyone would agree. If it's a matter of opinion(and I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid) than it isn't "significantly better" by (my)definition.

Little value in stock?

[JBMcB]

Let's see, there's all Apple's IP, QuickTime technologies in MPEG4, a ton of software (OSX, Logic, Final Cut, Shake, i-Software) a fantastic industrial design department, manufacturing facilities, tight ties to Pixar (one of the most successful movie studios) a mature and integrated hardware/software design team, a chain of retail stores (successful or not, it's capital investment) and, currently, the most popular online music store (though not making profit, it's bringing in eyeballs) as well as the brand name Apple, probably as well known as Microsoft.

I'd say there's quite a bit of value in APPL.

Re:Little value in stock?

[zhenlin]

APPL!?

What does Appell Petroleum Corporation (APPL.PK) have to do with Apple Computer?

You must mean AAPL.

Re:Little value in stock?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'd say there's quite a bit of value in APPL.

Then I'd say buy the stock (or buy more if you already have).

Re:Little value in stock?

[Anonymous Coward]

as well as the brand name Apple, probably as well known as Microsoft.

Uhm, probably not. On a visit to Brazil a couple of years ago, I was talking to some folks who worked with PCs there, getting into a little development, etc. When I mentioned that I had mostly learned to code on the Macintosh platform, all I got was blank stares. They had literally never even heard of it. Didn't know it was a kind of computer. This was not in some rural area either, it was fairly near Sao Paulo.

Granted, this kind of cluelessness probably isn't the norm, but if they're going to know one or the other, they're going to know Microsoft. Miscrosoft is everywhere. Apple is not.

Well...they do have a point....

[Anonymous Coward]

OS X is based on BSD....

Re:Well...they do have a point....

[fm6]

BSD Trolls are Dying!

Apple seems to be coming back

[emacnabber]

I go to a major university and have always had the habit of seeing what types of laptops people use as I walk around. In the last 6 months I've noticed a huge increase in the number of Mac users. Yesterday while walking to class, I saw that about 2/3 of the students had Macs. When I started at the university three years ago I really don't remember seeing anyone who had a Mac. From my personal experience, Macs seem to be increasing in popularity.

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[Erwos]

I've seen more people using Linux and BSD on their laptops at my university than Apple laptops. Your anecdotal evidence is just that.

-Erwos

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[chia_monkey]

I've noticed the same thing. I used to get all giddy every time I saw a PowerBook or iBook out in the wild, but it's becoming so commonplace now that I instead think "cool...there's another sale for Apple and another happy user." Just this past Sunday I made my way into a coffeeshop (here in Philly...so it's not like I'm in the mecca of computing or more open thinkers like in CA). The lady at the table next to me was asking about computers and said she was pondering a laptop and the iBook. I looked around the shop and saw two laptop users...both were the new iBooks. I pointed to those and said "like that?" Well she ended up buying one and now I get to teach her how to use it. Too cool. I see them everywhere now...airports, coffeeshops, etc...not just in the expected areas like design studios or universities.

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[mahonri5]

It helps to leave the CS/Engineering areas of campus once in a while.
I doubt that those business majors, fine arts, or Communication majors are counted in your determination. To second the former statement (since I go to this said uni) I do see a ton of Apple laptops on campus. The school's bookstore pushes them very heavily (more apple merchendise than pc), and they look cool. We've got two powerbooks in the local users group here, and just walking through the student center you're bound to see as many apples as dells/whatevers. So while at your uni it might be the case, don't assume that this is the case everywhere, and that no one wants apples. Most people I know who aren't geeks think the powerbooks and ibooks are cool, except maybe the pricetag. And that's my rant.

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[YellowBook]

I go to a major university and have always had the habit of seeing what types of laptops people use as I walk around. In the last 6 months I've noticed a huge increase in the number of Mac users.

That's probably because Apple laptops are price-competitve with Wintel. Wintel desktops are cheaper than Apple because of economies of scale which don't really apply in laptops -- all laptops are basically proprietary designs. So if you buy a Powerbook or iBook, you get a quality laptop at about the same price as a Wintel laptop, plus desirable features like OSX and much longer battery life. Not surprising, then, that Apple laptops are popular even while the desktops are kind of a niche market.

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[drinkypoo]

I know a number of PC desktop users who have macintosh laptops. This is because the mac laptops are more expensive, but that is their only drawback: they are light, attractive, not overly large (anyone remember the G3 powerbook?) and have nice I/O. So Macs are making significant inroads into the laptop market. This should result in slightly increased desktop sales for people who like to maintain a "pure" network, it's certainly easiest in many cases to have the same OS all around. Personally I have two flavors of linux and windows xp at home, and I only want OSX because of the high level of eye candy. Since I have spent a lot of effort making my XP be like Unix (cygwin, X, a non-fisher-price theme for windows) it would make as much sense to have the mac. I'd still need my PC though, for games.

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[troyef]

Having just finished a graduate degree in software engineering, I have noticed that about 80% of my professors from grad and undergrad use Macs and OSX. This even in the face of major institutional arrangements with MS for software licensing, including VS.Net. I would love to use a Mac at home, but I simply don't have the puddin'. My daughter needs to eat.... At work we develop in .Net so the last of the Macs are gone.....

Re:Apple seems to be coming back

[callipygian-showsyst]

Unfortunately, this is a glaring example of why the /. moderation system is crap.

I was 100% serious about FIT. I have a degree from FIT. They're the only school where, for example, the libray has a Mac-equipped computer lab with more Macintoshes than PCs.

Re:Honestly - who gives a fuck?

[Anonymous Coward]

The words, "Prick" & "Ignorant" comes to mind.

Blame Games

[obsid1an]

Games are what are driving most new PC sales. Most games don't run on macs. Even if they do, the needed hardware is just too damn expensive. Apples are nice computers but they are in a niche market, and that market doesn't really have a need to buy a faster computer every year or two.

Re:Blame Games

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right! My Mac is 4-1/2 years old and I'm still playing Quake on it and even though I _want_ a dual G5 ... can't justify the cost. Why? Everything just keeps working with OS X and ... with _our_ upgrades and patches tend to work tighter and FASTER.

Then you have Windows. Enjoy! (sucker)

Re:Blame Games

[stretch0611]

Games are what are driving most new PC sales. Most games don't run on macs.

I will agree that games mean a lot when it comes to hardware and OS sales. However not everyone needs only the latest over-hyped game that just came out. There are some good games that Run on Mac. (Warcraft 3, Diablo 2, NetHack) While the number of games running on Macs will not appease the most hardcore gamer, it will satisfy the casual gamer.

Re:Blame Games

[MKalus]

The Price thing is not true anymore. For quite some time.

If you end up putting all the same things into the PC that you have in the Mac you'll end up roughly at the same price, minus OS X.

So games are driving new HW purchases? That's like saying that the Indy and Nascar are driving car sales, it is only true for the ones who do race / drive fast or play games SERIOUSLY.

The majority of computer users and car drivers really doesn't care about it, neither does the majority of computer gamers.

BTW, exactly because I didn't want to buy a new PC every couple of months just to play the latest and "greatest" 3D shooter I switched to the console, at least for the $500 I spent on it (back then) I have something that'll work for another year or two without me being forced to buy a new Graphics card, install an OS patch etc.

Re:Blame Games

[imag0]

Utter bullshit, man.

there's hundreds of games out there for Mac, and dedicated development houses that cater *explicitly* to the Mac audience.

If you will excuse me, going to go play some more Unreal Tournament 2004 on my Mac.

Re:Blame Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Why then is Microsoft trying so hard to stifle PC gaming with the "exclusive titles" for the X-Box only?

Honestly, there is not much drive for PC gaming anymore. Microsoft themselves are trying to kill it in favour of X-Box gaming.

Re:Blame Games

[rishistar]

Not just games (though mainly this). The cost of all the other software I've invested in (and I'm mainly thinking of my music studio stuff) is what puts me off going Mac. I could maybe pay the extra cost for the hardware/OSX...but not for studio software as well.

Re:Blame Games

[TheOnlyCoolTim]

Before you play Unreal Tournament, you might want to sign the petition for Mac Half Life 2!

Tim

Re:Blame Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Software always seems to be the cost that puts people off from switching platforms, in either direction. Maybe Apple should work with companies like Adobe and get discounts for people that want the Mac version of a program, and already have the Windows version. How much of a discount would it take to make people switch? 25%? 50%?

Re:Blame Games

[obsid1an]

I never said there were no good games for Mac, I said most don't run on Mac. The three most popular games (arguably), Counter-Strike, Battlefield 1942, and Call of Duty, don't run on Mac.

Re:Blame Games

[dartlan]

That's a great game, but it's even out on Linux. Where's Battlefield Vietnam, or an Everquest/Asheron's Call/Dark Age of Camelot type game.... Does the Mac even have Grand Theft Auto III? (I know it's trash, but it's popular trash.) So yes, the lack of games is a problem for Mac sales.

Re:Blame Games

[obsid1an]

First off, the price thing is most definentely true still. A quick check shows a G5 1.6GHz w/ 512MB ram @ $1874. A Dell Dimension 4600 with a 2.8Ghz P4 and 512MB ram is $967. They both have a FX5200 video card, DVD burners, and an 80GB harddrive. I would be happy to see your justification for a Mac costing the same as a similiarly equiped PC.

Second, your analogy would be true if the same percentage of the population that drove Nascar cars played games. That is simply not true. The game industry is bigger than both television and movies. A LOT of people play games. I'm not even saying it's the majority, but those people that do play the latest games are upgrading their hardware 2-3 times more than the average user. I mean how much CPU power do you need for email, internet, and quicken vs UT2004 and Battlefield 1942.

Oh, and consoles are great. No arguments there.

Re:Blame Games

[kilfarsnar]

I am a gamer and a Mac addict, so I can vouch for the fact that there are not as many games for Mac. There are , however a good number of good games for the Mac. Halo, Max Payne, and the Rainbow Six series come to mind, but there are others.

That being said, I'm not sure how much the lack of games hurts Apples sales. A bit maybe, but most people considering Macs are not gamers. If your main reason for buying a computer is gaming, you are better off with a PC or better yet, a console. But I think this segment of computer buyers is small. Just MHO.

Re:Blame Games

[MKalus]

I would be happy to see your justification for a Mac costing the same as a similiarly equiped PC.

The fact that you most likely will have the Mac around in a couple of years while your Dell is rotting away somewhere.

I am still amazed at how well some of the old Mac stuff is holding up these days.

A LOT of people play games. I'm not even saying it's the majority, but those people that do play the latest games are upgrading their hardware 2-3 times more than the average user. I mean how much CPU power do you need for email, internet, and quicken vs UT2004 and Battlefield 1942.

True enough, but if you put it into context / percentage wise not that many people are doing that. How many people (outside of your little gamer circle) do you know who upgrade their computers constantly to be able ot play games?

I race Triathlons, most of the people I am surrounded by are Triathletes too. If I use that worldview I can argue that people are extremely fit, spent 8K or more on their road bikes and think a two hour run is nothing to sweat about. In fact the reason soo much calories are consumed is because we need to fuel.

Of course my statement is as wrong as yours, looking at the whole picture. But from my little group of friends it is 100% true.

Careful with generalization. The Games aren't really driving the market anymore, simply because these days most people who have computers don't use them for gaming anymore. Though I admit it was true a couple of years back.

Re:Blame Games

[obsid1an]

Ok, so I specced out two computers with similar performance yet one will last longer than the other? Please explain other than it's too expensive to upgrade the Mac as much people do to PCs. The old PC stuff can hold up just as well as old Mac stuff.

Once again you are making an analogy with a much smaller percentage of the population. If you go check Gamespy Stats and add up the number of players currently playing it comes to about 200,000 concurrent users right now. That is just online multiplayer games that can be tracked (and during non-prime hours). It doesn't even include single player PC games or MMORPGs which would be considerably larger. So no, I'm not just talking about my friends.

The number of PC gamers is in the millions, and they do make an impact on hardware sales. How else could NVIDIA and ATI afford to do the research and development on new GPUs every 6 months if the people that bought them (the PC gamers) were negligible when it comes to sales?

Re:Blame Games

[MKalus]

Ok, so I specced out two computers with similar performance yet one will last longer than the other? Please explain other than it's too expensive to upgrade the Mac as much people do to PCs. The old PC stuff can hold up just as well as old Mac stuff.

One recent example comes to mind: Collegue has an old Wallstreet Powerbook. With every new version of X it got faster.

Now show me a five year old Notebook where XP is running faster on than 2000, Me, or '98.

That is just online multiplayer games that can be tracked (and during non-prime hours). It doesn't even include single player PC games or MMORPGs which would be considerably larger.

Percentage of Mature-Rated Games Sold in 2003 Declines

I guess most of the High intensity 3D Games that need the faster CPU, GPU & Memory are Mature games.

You don't need all that power for Solitaire.

How else could NVIDIA and ATI afford to do the research and development on new GPUs every 6 months if the people that bought them (the PC gamers) were negligible when it comes to sales?

The same way that car manufactueres can afford to race in the FormularOne or any other series: Brand image, and of course some of those technologies will over time translate into the "street" products.

You won't see many FormularOne cars being sold, not even the McLaren F1

The number of PC sales is up, but it is not for the hard core gamer, it is for the people who use it at home for their surfing, emailing and spreadsheet. Maybe some photo editing but that's about it. If they can play the occasional game they are happy.

The number of PC gamers is in the millions, and they do make an impact on hardware sales.

Considering the amount of PC users out there, yes you are, like it or not, but if you buy the next incarnation of an NVidia card will have no effect on what's in the next PC. "It's good enough" is all that the masses want, there might be a couple of ten thousands of the newest NVidia card sold world wide, but in comparision to the millions of lower end cards that are being installed into all the other PCs it means nothing.

M.

Re:Blame Games

[obsid1an]

Looking at your article, PC game sales account for $1.2 billion (52.8 million units). Sure, maybe sales decreased from $1.4 billion, but that doesn't change the fact that selling 52.8 million units of games, which are some of the most demanding applications out for the PC, will effect hardware sales. It is as simple as that.

I do love Macs...

[Beardydog]

I just can't afford a real one. I was raised on them, up until G3s, at which point we stopped buying from Apple, and I started molesting my poor 9600 with third party upgrade cards. Unfortunately, you can only push old hardware so far before it's overwhelming oldness clamps down on any boosts you might be striving for. It's going to be a long, long time before I can afford a new Apple computer, so here I am with a 2.4 Ghz PC I got for 300, playing the living hell out of games that aren't available for the Mac, Photoshopping, Dreamweaving, etc... My poor FrankenMac is living with my mom now, until she can afford a bargain PC of her own to run her home business on. It's too weak/old to run X properly, so she's using 9.1. It's a sad thing to be a huge fan, but be outside their intended user base because I don't have 3,000 to blow on something decent. Reminds me of a G5 parody site: Ask yourself, "Is my money good enough for this computer?"

Re:I do love Macs...

[The I Shing]

There's a post above by a guy who claims to have paid for his new PowerMac by threatening to sue a junk faxer.

He got something like twelve grand that he split 50/50 with his lawyer, and now he has a new Mac.

Good for him!

Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad passed away shortly after being run down by an SUV, for which some legal monies have been pending for about two years.

For a while I was planning on spending the majority of it on a Canon GL-1 and a dual Mac of some kind, but I sort of owe back-rent, dental fees, and a speeding ticket.

I'd definately be an Apple customer if I didn't have to eat food at least once a day, but until I break my addiction or get a job that pays in money, it's Windows for me.

Assuming Apple keeps releasing computers that can only be purchased by successful litigants.

Re:I do love Macs...

[HeghmoH]

It all depends on what you want to do.

Do you want to play games? Don't get a Mac. That should be obvious.

Do you want to do heavy-duty photoshopping? A cheap PC will probably be better than a cheap Mac.

Do you want to do light photoshopping, browse the web, get your mail, do some programming and UNIX hacking, and edit movies? An $800 eMac will be great. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get a really nice Mac.

Re:I do love Macs...

[RAMMS EIN]

I don't get these people who say they badly want a mac but can't afford it. The good thing about macintoshes is that they're quality hardware, and the good thing about OS X is it has been getting faster (as opposed to that other system) over time. So, instead of spending your $ 300 on an el-cheapo gigahertz toaster, you could have gotten a second hand mac.

That said, I wish there were a larger market for powerpc parts, so that powerpc systems could be assembled just like PCs can. Of course, they wouldn't be Apple hardware, so you still couldn't run Mac OS on them, but at least you would have a computer with a decent architecture - x86 just makes me sweaty and claustrophobic.

Re:I do love Macs...

[drinkypoo]

A used 1.25GHz G4 with 256MB ram and a ~6GB disk is still over $1000 from most sources. Admittedly that's with a superdrive (not the floppy, of course, the dvd-rw) but you can get a lite-on 8x +/- for $100 now so that's pretty well irrelevant, though I do have the pioneer DVR-104 (same as the -A04 in the apples) and it's a nice drive. But look, a used mac still costs more than a PC that will kick the shit out of it. Demand must be high enough to get these prices for 'em, but that keeps me out of even the used market.

I did have a G3 but it wasn't worth upgrading. Not only does yosemite have a slow bus but mine was a rev 1 with IDE problems. Apple really botched the original B&W G3.

Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to do light photoshopping, browse the web, get your mail, do some programming and UNIX hacking, and edit movies? An $800 eMac will be great. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get a really nice Mac.

But so would a $300 PC, that's the whole point

Re:I do love Macs...

[RAMMS EIN]

I've seen second hand G3 iBooks selling for ~ 300 euros and a G4 PowerBook for 400 euros. I figured that if you can get the portables for such prices, you should be able to get good deals on the desk machines, too.

I'll happily admit that in the low-price segment, you can get PCs that smoke the macs in the same price class, but if all you want is to have a machine that can run OS X, you don't need to spend a thousand dollars.

Re:I do love Macs...

[Paulrothrock]

This story illustrates one of the great things about Macs; their quality. I've had my Power Mac G4/400 since 2000, and with some RAM upgrades, a Firewire CD burner, and a couple new HDs (total cost: $500 over three years), it still runs the latest OS and does everything I need it to do, and isn't that all you should ask of a computer?

If you want games, buy a Playstation/XBox/Nintendo. You get a bigger screen with better picture quality, and cheaper games. If you don't think you can afford a Mac, finance one. I can guarantee that the $1,700 G5 you buy will outlast 2 Dells with comparable specs. And you won't be a MicroSerf.

Re:I do love Macs...

[syates21]

Dude, how do you pay for Photshop and Dreamweaver, if it is going to take a "long, long time" before you can afford a Mac? That's hundreds of dollars of software wrapped up in just those two - more than any difference between Mac and PC desktop prices (for equivalent machines).

Re:I do love Macs...

[Beardydog]

Shh.

Re:I do love Macs...

[Beardydog]

Like any video card worth owning, mine has an S-Video port. Big-screen, high quality gaming, offline, or online with no subscription fee.

Re:I do love Macs...

[drinkypoo]

If you want a machine which will run OS X and decode a full screen DivX movie, say, you will need at least a G4 750. If you want Quartz Extreme you will need a radeon or geforce, which means it's about the same price to buy the G4 as it is to get a G3 and upgrade its video card, since Yosemite has a 66MHz PCI slot instead of AGP. And with a B&W G3 you will need a CPU upgrade to do anything useful. I maintain that you cannot get anything worth running OSX on for less than about a grand ($US) as you will use it, except for the occasional laptop. A G3 iBook doesn't cut it. It would be a nice machine to put Linux on, though.

Re:I do love Macs...

[rstultz]

I have had a string of Macs, and never spent $3000. I just bought a refurbished iMac (17 inch, 1 ghz) for $1299. That's pretty reasonable. I also helped a friend pick out an eMac, 1 ghz, not as good as the iMac, but very reasonable at $799.

Go look at the Apple store. If you ignore the G5s (yah I'd love one, but I don't have to have one to get my work done) their prices are very affordable.

Ryan

Re:I do love Macs...

[SensitiveMale]

It's a sad thing to be a huge fan, but be outside their intended user base because I don't have 3,000 to blow on something decent.

I don't have 3 grand to spend either.

So last fall I purchased a NEW dual 1.25 GHz for $1700 and maxed out the RAM at 2 GB for an addition $120.

It is PLENTY fast.

"something decent" does not have to be "top of the line"

Re:I do love Macs...

[njfuzzy]

The upgrade path isn't any cheaper. It's a stupid strategy. You can spend $500 on an upgrade card, $100 on some RAM, and $250 for a new video card. That's $850. For twice that, you can get a brand new G5. Or for barely anything more, an eMac. Either would be many times faster and more useful than the upgraded 9600.

Re:I do love Macs...

[MattHaffner]

Shh.

Ahhh. Gotcha.

Well I hear a good crowbar and a black outfit can net you a dual-processor G5 these days too. Still in the box no less!

Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just can't afford a real one.

Go on. You don't really need two kidneys. Just sell one and buy a G5.

--love, S.J.

Re:I do love Macs...

[pkey]

A quick trip to the Apple's online store to check will show you that a iMac G4 800MHz/256MB/60GB/Combo/E/56K/15" - Refurbished, which meets all of your listed requirements can be had for $899 direct from Apple, with a 1 year warranty.

Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um.. how much money did you spend upgrading the frankinmac your mom now has? That, plus the money you spent on the PC, and games, would prob get you a kick ass Mac for serious work; and you could play games on a PS2 or other game box designed to play games on... (holly run-on sentance batman!) $3000 for something "Decent"? A refurb G5 w/ 2GB ram would be more than "decent"... and far less than $3000...

I'm not one to preach - I've added larger hard drives (twice), memory and a DVD-R to my Apple PowerBook G4/550 in the past year for just under $500 of what a refurbished PB G4 1GHz would have cost (with better graphics, faster processor, DVD-R, etc)

But still..

Just my $0.02

Have a nice day!

Re:I do love Macs...

[Beardydog]

THe upgrades were incremental, as upgrades tend to be. At the time I bought the 500 Mhz card, it was actually decent. My boss was into Macs, and he was jealous for a while. USB was cheap to add, IDE was cheap to add, CD-RW was cheap to add, but they do add up. A friend actually -gave- me 512 Mb RAM, for which I am eternally grateful.

I love the old guy, and I can't wait to get him back. As painful as it was I probably will try to run X on it again some day just for fun, but other than another IDE drive and maybe a FireWire card there isn't a whole lot that can reasonably be done to improve it at this point.

Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just can't afford a real one.

[...]

so here I am with a 2.4 Ghz PC I got for 300, playing the living hell out of games that aren't available for the Mac, Photoshopping, Dreamweaving, etc...

So let me get this straight, you can't afford to buy a Mac, but you can afford to buy a pile of games, a copy of Photoshop, Dreamweaver, etc.... ?

Re:I do love Macs...

[phillymjs]

Actually, I haven't got the Power Mac yet-- I'm waiting for the updated G5s. And I had planned to buy one of those regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit.

The only thing better than a new Mac is a new, free Mac. :-)

~Philly

Re:I do love Macs...

[danila]

Where I live, desktop PCs are pretty much the sum of their parts. Assembly is free and is covered by the markup on components. Just take the price-list, select the parts and the store will put everything together, test and give it to you next day. Of course, you can buy a pre-built box as well.

So with a PC I now exactly what I am paying for. With Macs it is a little bit different, because somewhere in the price sits a huge markup that Apple wants to take from me. While I certainly understand their reasons, I don't think they can justify such a price difference.

mp3-player monopoly?

[lordsilence]

The fact doesn't change that ipod is considerably more expensive then other alternatives on the market.
I chose to buy a Creative Zen Jukebox due to it's built-in 60gb disk and fair price. It also has superior soundquality compared to the ipod, according to the zen zealots out there (Including me) :).
Appearently it's a normal 2,5 laptop harddrive so it's possible to switch it for a larger one in the future.

For more on the "ipod vs jukebox war" see the forum at devhardware.com.

Does Apple really need to be saved?

[imperator_mundi]

Apple is posting profits => Apple doesn't need to be saved.

Market share does matter only if you're from Redmond and/or your plotting to rule the world, "normal" corporation are just after money, and money is just what Apple is making.

Re:Does Apple really need to be saved?

[misterpies]

What you've said is fine for privately owned companies. If the owner's making money, he's happy. For public companies such as Apple, though, its a different story. Public companies have to keep their stockholders happy. That means it's not enough to turn a profit: you've got to be turning a profit that (in percentage terms) is at least as big as your rivals. You've got to grow at least as fast as your rivals. Otherwise, shareholders will dump your stock and invest in your rivals.

Re:Does Apple really need to be saved?

[ryanw]

Otherwise, shareholders will dump your stock and invest in your rivals.

So? Whats the big deal of people dump the stock and invest in rivals? As long as the company is paying it's employees, paying for R&D, making money... why should the stock be a driving factor for anything?

Re:Does Apple really need to be saved?

[faedle]

Methinks you may be missing the point of the Jobs-run Apple.

Apple's positioning is that they have no rivals. They do not sell commodity PCs, they do not sell just any old computer.. they sell Macintoshes. They are betting the bank (on both sides: in the marketplace and on Wall Street) that enough people will "get it" to make everybody money.

This is no different than Disney's classical positioning. Walt Disney Company didn't set out to be the biggest, baddest movie studio.. they wanted to be the ONLY company producing vertically-integrated family entertainment. And, while Vivendi/Universal is catching up, Disney still has a lot of mindshare, and it's the name that pops into your head when you think of "family entertainment".

For me, as an AAPL shareholder, I can just say that I invested in Apple not because I was looking to make a quick buck, but because I believed in the company and the products they produced, and that belief would result in a safe place to stash a few thousand dollars for the long term. I know that's a lot different than the "day-trader" model, but perhaps that's what Apple is betting the bank on.

Re:Does Apple really need to be saved?

[misterpies]

simple. The stockholders own the company and the purpose of the company is not to pay its employees, but to create value for stockholders. As well as dumping the stock if they don't like the way it's going, they can fire the board and the CEO. Plus if a company isn't looking after its owner's interests, the next time it needs to raise capital via a stock issue, it's going to be in trouble.

Could the Walkman have Saved Sony?

[H8X55]

Yeah - i think this is much ado about nothing. I wouldn't write Apple off at the moment. Using stats w/ declining computer sales is a little suspect. Couldn't we say the same about Dell, HP/Compaq, Gateway, and IBM? The iPod, if nothing else is advertisement for Apple Technology. The G5 running Panther OS seems like a very strong combination of hardware/software. And i might wager than PC owning consumers buying iPods just might consider a Mac the next time around the block.

I wonder if the iPod could actually save Apple. It's not that I think Apple needs saving, but more so, question whether or not a $300 mp3 player could revitalize a company. Did Sony need saving when they released their Walkman? Did Nintendo need the Gameboy the rescue them form extinction? Nope. These companies used these products to become even more powerful than they already were.

Re:Could the Walkman have Saved Sony?

[misterpies]

Frankly, Nintendo probably would have disappeared a few years ago without the GameBoy. And there's no doubt that Nintendo is only a fraction as powerful as it was when the GameBoy was released - back then, the NES was the top selling games system in the world.

To get back on-topic, I hope Apple isn't betting the company on the iPod, because I don't see a long-term future in standalone music players. I'm in the market for a new cellphone and find that even on the cheapest contract deals I can get a free phone with a built-in MP3/AAC player. Some even include video players. OK so most have limited flash memory for now, but it can't be long until they start integrating gigabyte drives. I'd also be willing to bet that phone companies will soon create music stores that will allow people to download tracks to their phone direct without having to go through a PC. When that happens, then unless Apple has an iPhone up its sleeve and a deal extend iTunes to become a mobile service, it can kiss its music business byebyes.

Re:Could the Walkman have Saved Sony?

[vitaflo]

Frankly, Nintendo probably would have disappeared a few years ago without the GameBoy. And there's no doubt that Nintendo is only a fraction as powerful as it was when the GameBoy was released - back then, the NES was the top selling games system in the world.

I don't want to get too off topic, but this is simply not true. If there's one thing Nintendo is good at, it's making a profit. While the N64 was crushed by the Playstation, Nintendo actually ended up making more money than the Sony did. And while the Gamecube is also being crushed by PS2, Nintendo's profit's are on par with Sony's this gen.

You're right that they have lost market share, but they're still raking it in hand over fist.

Re:Could the Walkman have Saved Sony?

[Andrevan]

Frankly, Nintendo probably would have disappeared a few years ago without the GameBoy. And there's no doubt that Nintendo is only a fraction as powerful as it was when the GameBoy was released - back then, the NES was the top selling games system in the world.

Yeah, uh... what exactly are you talking about? Nintendo lost a lot of market share in the N64 era but remained profitable throughout... and would have even without the Game Boy. The N64 sold enough in the US to support the entire company, factoring in that there would have been no handheld division to keep afloat. Nintendo was, and remains, a very conservative company and it doesn't sell its products at a loss, unlike Microsoft, for example, which sells the XBOX hardware at a loss to provoke sales of software. Yes, you're right, Nintendo is not nearly as powerful as it was in the NES era, but ever since it lost the power it commanded through the 80's and early 90's, the possibility of pulling a Sega and becoming merely a software company has lurked under the surface. And it's never seriously been considered. Even now Nintendo makes a sizeable profit from the GameCube.

Re:Could the Walkman have Saved Sony?

[dancingmad]

Frankly, Nintendo probably would have disappeared a few years ago without the GameBoy. And there's no doubt that Nintendo is only a fraction as powerful as it was when the GameBoy was released - back then, the NES was the top selling games system in the world.

How does crap like this get modded up? That's complete B.S. Nintendo has been doing extrememly well with the Gamecube, running an Apple like service (more niche than the mainstream player, but a rabid, active fanbase and a quality product). While the Gameboy has certainly been a cash cow for Nintendo, that's like saying "Microsoft would have died a few years ago" after Windows 98 S/E and Windows Millenium came out. Yes, the Nintendo 64 had a bumpy road, but a huge number of big selling, critically acclaimed games out for it, including Mario 64 and Zelda: Ocarina of Time (considered still one of the greatest games of all time by the gaming Bible Famitsu). Nintendo still sold an obscene amount of N64s; eveyr highschool/college clique I knew back in the day had at least one or two people with a Nintendo 64 and Goldeneye.

Nintendo still sets a lot of the tone for the industry, they're still being ripped off a lot conceptually (Mario 64/Zelda clones?), and they're still a profitable company. They're not as powerful as they were before, but neither is IBM, Compaq/HP, or anyone in the PC side of things.

Nintendo would not have been gone, because even if it isn't the 800-lb gorilla it was back in the days of the Nintendo/Famicom and Super Nintendo/Famicom, the gaming industry is big enough to cater to 2 or 3 players today, especially when considered globally.

"Nintendo would have been dead a few years ago" is just as ignorant as "Apple is dying".

the death of apple - the longest death in history

[spamspam]

now i know why i don't subscribe to money magazine - idiot writers

Why iPod Can't Save Apple?

[mccalli]

Why iPod Can't Save Apple? Easy - because it doesn't need saving.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Why iPod Can't Save Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

This whole thing reminds me of something I saw the other night.

My wife and I were at a local microbrew pub here in the City, and sitting next to this stupid business guy who was agruing with the waiter because they wouldn't sell him a sandwitch off thier lunch menu because it was dinnertime. He went on and on, and after the waiter left, showed all his friends at his table about how smart he was buy outlining the fact that the brewpub was losing 'business' and that if they had made the sandwitch he wanted they would have made another $7 that night, and about how that brewpub is probably gonna out of business for being so stupid.

Meanwile, I think in the 10 minutes or so while the customer was arguing with the waiter, they probably sold several hundered dollars worth of Beer to the many people that were there. This business guy couldn't understand what the restaurant's real business model was, being a microbrew pub, which is to sell a whole lot of beer, and have decent food so more people buy more beer. They could care less about this guy's $7, for they are making money hand over fist when it's a busy dinner rush off of the tasty microbrew they make...

So all these 'sky is falling' things about Apple on slashdot are just sad, I mean, every time they are wrong, shortsighted, and worse- just stupid.

Re:Why iPod Can't Save Apple?

[mccalli]

Meanwile, I think in the 10 minutes or so while the customer was arguing with the waiter, they probably sold several hundered dollars worth of Beer to the many people that were there.

And hence the concept of opportunity cost - it cost the pub $7 in lost business to gain the opportunity to make more standardised meals for everyone else, which in turn led to more money than the original $7. If the guy truly was smart, he'd have known that. It's a very basic, pre-University level piece of economics.

By the way - the City? As in London's Square Mile? That's where I work - interested to know which pub and whether it was any good.

Cheers,
Ian

Except that they don't make any profit on iTunes..

[AzrealAO]

They've said many times, that iTunes makes them almost no profit at all. It pays it's costs, but the real reason behind iTunes is to drive sales of the iPod, which does have a relatively healthy profit margin.

The iPod (and HP branded iPod) are the only devices that currently play iTunes Music Store content without having to format shift the music.

woohoo

[Steamhead]

In other news, apple's death is predicted yet again! Honestly this is another spin on an old storym nothing new here.

Panther? Last Summer?

[ksdd]

Either you're in the southern hemisphere, or the guy who left his iMac got a copy of Panther pretty early...

Re:Panther? Last Summer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or he did beta testing. The Panther beta was released to the testers LONG before it went gold.

Could someone post the text?

[Saint Stephen]

I'm not going to give them a cookie. Bad cookies. Bad!

Re:Could someone post the text?

[negacao]

NEW YORK (MONEY Magazine) - Manhattan, 5:55 p.m. on Feb. 20, and in five minutes Apple will begin selling the highly anticipated miniaturized version of its hugely popular iPod.

Outside its SoHo store there is an anxious queue of trend-setters and gadget-philes that stretches for more than a big city block. Hundreds of people have been waiting as long as three hours in the cold to get their hands on a Mini. In SoHo, with its art galleries and designer boutiques, this Friday night the retail outpost for the PC maker is the place to be.

For Apple CEO Steve Jobs, these are triumphant times. The iPod is more than the most successful digital music player ever: It's a cultural phenomenon -- on a par with Sony's Walkman -- radically altering the way we buy and store music.

This apparent success has lured many investors to jump on the Apple bandwagon. Its shares have risen 51 percent in the past year to a recent $23. If you love the company's products -- and what's not to love about their ease of use and elegant design? -- you might be tempted to buy Apple's shares.

But behind the hype and buzz surrounding the iPod and Jobs, there are problems stewing at Apple.

Newbie passion, vision

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Mac users have a vision problem.

A lot of you guys are passionate about your Macs for sure but it seems to cloud your vision terribly.

I used a Mac for a while. It was nice looking and stuff but it has about the same problems as any OS. Crashes sometimes, errors, stuff not doing what you want it to.

In short, all operating systems suck equaly. Use whatever is cheapist to get done what you need to get done. That ain't Apple (you're mostly paying for the trendy logo).

Re:Newbie passion, vision

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, are clueless. I've got a lab of iMacs running OS X in a K-8 school, and I have NEVER had a forced reboot because of a "Mac crashing" during student use.

Re:Newbie passion, vision

[TheOnlyCoolTim]

If you were running Windows XP, you'd be able to say the same thing about your Windows machines.

Tim

Microsoft Fanatics Lashing Out

[Anonymous Coward]

The VT Cluster.
The Microsoft Virus/Security Nightmare.
And now iTunes/iPod.

All three have had bizzaro 'lash out' stories like this one. As Apple continues to come out with hit products and MS's problems continue to grow, the die-hard MS journalists are showing their nature.

Apple isn't going to go bust...

[shepd]

Any more than Pepsi is going to go bust.

No matter what you're talking about, unless it's a government service, there's *always* a long-term underdog. Or so has been my experience.

Heinz? Hunts.
Frito-Lay? Humpty Dumpty.
Philishave? Remington.

etc, etc.

That all being said, the Apple platform, as currently sold and marketed, simply can't get a large marketshare. Their target audience (People with enough money that "good enough" isn't, and the monied disenfranchised) simply isn't big enough to get them out of the spot they're in.

Re:Apple isn't going to go bust...

[Anonymous Coward]

The target audience would be people smart enough to buy a computer that lasts longer than a year, and only gets faster over time. That can cover both people that have the money, and people that understanding the concept of "saving". Which most people don't. What a shame.

Re:Apple isn't going to go bust...

[shepd]

>The target audience would be people smart enough to buy a computer that lasts longer than a year, and only gets faster over time.

Wow. Explain to me how a computer gets faster over time without modification, rather than staying the same speed. This is an entirely new concept to me, and if Apple truly has mastered the concept of infinitely increasing speed on the same CPU, I must applaud them, and will instantly "convert" or "switch" or "think differently" or whatever today's Apple buzzword bingo is.

Or you could just be talking utter bullshit, in which case don't waste my time with a reply.

>That can cover both people that have the money, and people that understanding the concept of "saving". Which most people don't. What a shame.

Yes. Because saving is buying a 40 GB iPod rather than a 100 stack of CD-Rs and a CD-MP3 player.

End sarcasm.

oh no!

[negacao]

oh no, apple is dying!

(again)

Typical

[HarveyBirdman]

This is why I stopped reading most of the mainstream financial magazines- article after article where the author's bias was so blatant it made you wonder if it was meant to be satire. Now when it comes to investing style, that's fairly subjective, and articles like that are basically editorials advocating one style or another. But when the "factual" reporting becomes biased, it's useless. Unfortunately, pretty much all news media is just as useless.

OSX 64bit

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with the parent; OSX is going to save apple. Aside from being a purty OS, it's receive attention from its BSD core to its easy of use. I'm willing to bet that the release of a true 64bit OSX will open new doors for Apple.

I'm thinking in the similar sense of when win3.11 went to win95. Remember that day? People lined around the store buying copies of the first consumer 32bit operating system. All joking aside, it launched microsoft into a new world.

I can't wait for Apple can get the true 64bit OSX compiled with the IBM optimized compiler. I can only wonder what 64bit memory addressing can do (not 2x32bit addressing).

I'm Steve and I've never owned a Mac or any apple product.

Re:OSX 64bit

[Kelt]

Also, if Apple gets into lower money situations, it can go into porting OS/X onto x86 platforms, including the new 64-bit chips coming out.

I'd get it if I could run it on non-overpriced Apple hardware.

-Kelt

Apple Computer

[Picass0]

Proudly going out of business for 24 years.

Re:too expensive

[GreatDrok]

What are you talking about?

Just this last november I was looking at getting a new laptop to replace the Toshiba I had bought 18 months previously which had suffered battery failure (replaced it) and then backlight failure (killed it as a laptop so I turned it into a server, hey, might as well use the new battery for something and a server with built in UPS is worth something to me).

That Toshiba spec'ed in with a 1Ghz PIII, 256MB RAM, 14" LCD, 20GB drive and Nvidia Gforce 2Go graphics, was pretty sweet at the time. Trouble was, it was very poorly built. The nice silver paint they put on the palm rest rubbed off in weeks leaving two nasty looking palm prints, and the case chipped and cracked like mad because it was made from very brittle plastic.

OK, so when looking at replacing the machine I decided I would go with one of the new G4 iBooks as it had a better spec than the old laptop and is definitely made from better materials. Oh, and unlike the previous laptop I wasn't going to pay an extra 100 or so to MS for an OS I wasn't going to use. This Mac is the first machine I have bought in 20 years that kept the originally installed OS. Best of all the Mac ocst 1000, thats a cool 500 less than the Toshiba. Yes, I could have got some cut down POS Intel laptop for similar money but they are simply not built as well as this iBook.

I think it is fair to say that anyone claiming that Apple gear is more expensive than Intel based stuff is talking out of the wrong orifice!

Best of all, once I got the iBook I just had to buy an iPod, then I got an Airport card, next I am going to dump the POS Windows XP box I have and replace it with a Mac, possibly a nice iMac or I might splash out on a G5 as they are very good value for money.

There is nothing not to like about Apple kit, it is really nicely put together, the OS is simply a joy to use for this long time UNIX bod, even if the stuff was more expensive it would be worth it, and in fact it isn't more expensive. These machines are to die for, and yes, I have lots of friends who are picking up Macs too. Oh, and I am a scientist and a Mac is the best of all worlds, it is a powerful UNIX box and yet has the one blasted thing that people just assume we all have, MS Office. Office X on the Mac is better than any version on the PC. I would prefer to use OpenOffice and one day I will, NeoOffice shows the potential and doesn't need X11 by the way.

All in all, I can't see why everyone doesn't use Macs now, I am currently on a crusade to get all my friends to use them and frankly, it isn't that hard a sell!

what about us musicians?

[Maznafein]

Mac is still very popular, and very much used in audio and video. I'm a new comer into the audio engineering world and I've never not used a mac outside of my own studio. Windows just isn't stable enough for me to deal with it. Can you imagine recording a 24 track pro tools session and all of a sudden the machine stops responding?

No thank you, I don't want my client, who could have tracked three songs in a day, eating up that many channels realize "hey, I just wasted a ton of money on studio time, and now we're going to have to do it again?"

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take a more stable mac, with better software and support, than that any day.

Call me crazy, but it's just how I am.

Re:what about us musicians?

[kilfarsnar]

And besides, Garage Band rulez! Ya know, for us non-professional types...

Raises concerns, but panics a bit too

[sg3000]

I haven't read the entire article since I'm not a subscriber to Money Magazine, so it's hard to gauge the article from just those quotes. However, the quotes seem to point out some valid concerns, but it might be a bit of "chicken little" as well.

The market share numbers aren't terribly convincing (since there's about a dozen different ways to measure market share, and one can always pick one that fits what you're trying to say). Without more info, it's hard to judge. Though Apple would obviously rather hear others saying their numbers are going. I've heard that the iPod is the #1 digital music player today and Apple has something like 75% market share for online music, so there's an upward trend. It would be interesting to see Apple's own tracking of unit shipments compared to these numbers. (I'm ignoring comments from someone suing Apple are never convincing until the case is over. There's too much incentive for the plaintiff to basically try to blackmail the defending company into settling).

However, the author is suggesting that Apple's cash flow from operations is negative, while its cash flow from investments is positive. I presume Apple's cash flow from financing is 0 since they've retired their debt. That's not a good pattern for a mature company, and after 20 years, Apple sure is.

Apple has been remaking itself as of late, and one would expect that its cash flow profile would match that of a growing company. And since Apple has a lot of cash, it wouldn't have positive cash flow from financing (meaning its getting its money from VC funding or by borrowing), but positive cash flow from its own investments to finance its remake of its operations.

As an investor, I would argue that I would rather have Apple financing its changing operations from investments rather than from financing. That's because financing from investments is better for shareholders since it doesn't dilute shareholder equity the way issuing more shares or even borrowing from a bank does.

So is it okay for Apple to have negative cash flow from operations at this time? I think so. They've changed their business quite a bit since 1996, and those changes will affect operational income in the short run. For example, Apple has opened some 80 stores, and that's a tremendous operational expense since they've incurred a lot of fixed costs. I believe that their retail story makes sense, since they're the direct opposite of most computer stores. In a way, the Apple Stores are like Target to Best Buy, CompUSA, and the others' Walmart.

Since the stock market currently values Apple at nearly the price to earnings of Dell, it means that the market believes that what Apple is doing will pay off in the long term. And it probably will. I believe Mac OS X and Apple's incredible industrial design are the foundations of its future success. The iPod is positioning itself as the next Walkman, and Apple's in a great position regarding digital music. Their recent deal with HP further solidifies this. As for iPods driving Mac sales, anecdotal evidence is often misleading, but I've met a number of people who have recently bought new Macintoshes after being Windows users for years, and the iPod has helped drive that. There's always room for Apple to pull another Cube and screw things up, but Apple's track record has been respectable in the past couple of years, so people are giving them the benefit of the doubt in that place.

Re:Raises concerns, but panics a bit too

[Anonymous Coward]

I am obviously not a financial wizard, and I can't even afford a twin processor G5 with 23" Cinema display [which is what I would need to equate to my current dual-processor WinTel outfit with 24" flatscreen monitor], but if Apple is making money on its investments and losing money on operations, wouldn't it make more sense to cease operations, wind up the business, and just make money on the investments? Is there some major financial concept I am missing here?

Re:Raises concerns, but panics a bit too

[sg3000]

> if Apple is making money on its investments and losing
> money on operations, wouldn't it make more sense to cease
> operations, wind up the business, and just make money on
> the investments? Is there some major financial concept I am
> missing here?

Tha's a good question. Companies that are growing (or changing significantly) can finance their growth in two ways: cash from financing or cash from investments.

1. Cash flow from financing is the typical way to do it. You can get money from a venture capitalist fund (in exchange for a lot of issued stock and partial loss of control). You also can get money from banks by taking on long-term debt. The way this works out is this dilutes shareholder equity indirectly since in the event the company goes out of business, the bank gets in line for assets before any of the shareholders. Although technically this should have zero impact on a company's balance sheet, it does tend to make investors pissy.

2. Cash flow from investments gets money into the company without diluting shareholder equity. That's why shareholders prefer this method, but few companies are in a position to do this.

This incoming cash flow is then invested into operations to expand the business, and thus cash flow from operations is negative. Eventually, the company wants to have positive cash flow from operations and use that to sustain the business. So, yes, the end game is for the company to have positive cash flow from operations and to a lesser extent positive cash flow from investments, and 0 cash flow from financing (unless the company is taking advantage of debt leverage, then there will be a positive cash flow from financing).

So why do they need this cash? Because one way to become cash flow positive from operations is to increase the company's operating leverage. Think of a graph of costs as a function of sales volume. The slope of the line is the variable cost, and the y-intercept are the fixed costs. Generally, for cost structures, the larger the y-intercept for the line, the smaller the slope of the line. So the idea is to get the y-intercept of the line up and the slope approaching 0.

The way to do this is to adjust the cost structure such that the variable costs are as low as possible. The way to do this is to increase the fixed costs such that at the targeted sales volume, the variable costs are significantly lower than the competition.

So in the short term, Apple is increasing their operating leverage using financing from their investments. It's a good strategy assuming that they can succeed. And as I said in my grandparent post, I don't think there's reason to doubt Apple won't.

Honestly

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly now, how many of you would be in line for a powerbook if they were more affordable?

When I bought the computer I'm using now, I had to decide between a Dell D600, or an Apple with fewer bells and whistles at a comparable price. If I could afford it, my next computer would be an Apple for sure. Yeah, I know the pricing is part of their marketing scheme, but even their entry level products aren't competitively priced.

Re:Honestly

[darkstream]

This is the area that Apple is getting spanked in. I'm working with a guy right now who loves what he sees on the Mac, is tired of endless PC problems, viruses, breakdowns, and driver issues. He loves the iLife suit of apps. Is excited about the Mac's ease of use. But. He will probably buy that cheapo Compaq bundle at Wal*Mart. Why? It costs $498 and an eMac is $799. For this type of buyer, it's all about price.

Low end PC users are very forgiving of Wintel nightmares when it comes to price. He can pay off the Compaq quicker, it will come with WinXP which "will clear up most of the bugs [he's] running into" (his quote - not mine), and he doesn't have to relearn how to use his computer. The fact that I could argue he's wrong on all points except one is the crux of the matter. It IS cheaper.

I don't know the details of comparison between the two models you referred to above, but for me, you can't put a price on ease of use. I owned PCs from 1994-2000. Then, after reinstalling Win98 for the eigth time that year to clear up a corrupted registry, I bought a Grape iMac DV. It was a night and day experience. That's not to say OS9 didn't have it's issues, but I never had to reinstall the OS just to get a performance increase. Everything worked. I just plugged it in. Any expansions I needed I plugged into my USB ports. I purchased new versions of my favorite web and graphics software (Another aspect that daunts switchers, except that many of the PC users I know don't actually buy their software. They get it for free with the PC or Kazaa - like the guy above). I ran Virtual PC for any stragglers that I couldn't find on the Mac, and I never looked back. I use my computer. I don't worry about viruses. I don't waste hours trouble shooting my iMac. Unlike my experience on a PC.

Apple needs to have a low priced iMac. Period. And the lowend line is due for a refresh, that's true. But the question is, can Apple provide the same quality at a $500 price? Would they? Shouldn't they? I believe they should. They are losing the lowend war. The warehouse store or Wal*Mart mentality doesn't care about class, style, elegance, etc. They care about good enough for a great price. But then, Apple has never targeted Macs at these consumers so they might not see this as a loss...

Re:Market share side note

[tsmithnj]

By the way, did you know that Apple has less than 5% market share? Yes, and did you know that 5% of the population has an IQ over 120?

No wonder.

[Anonymous Coward]

This post dosen't even need to be modded, its 5, insightful not matter what. Apple has basicly been swept out by a tidal force called Open Competition. Lets look what made apple big recenty.

• OS X
• G5
• iApps

But they all suffered problems. Here are the main reasons

• The G5, Althogh briefly lord of the processors, for about 3 months it was quickly quashed by the launch of Athlon 64, Pentium Extreme Edition. No only that benchmarks showed that G5 lost by a CLEAR margin, the price is still to high! You can pick up a 3.4Ghz machine for the price of a emac, while I could buy a freaking beowulf cluster of them for the price of one G5
• Linux distributions have caughtup and surpassed OSX in terms of ease of use, avalible applications and price. Take Mandrake 10 for example, I am writing on it now, and the Galaxy II theme gives Aqua a thump in the face! Plus with Wine I can run all the MacApps I need if I wanted (but I don't)
• Proprietery hardware and form factors. You can't just go out and buy a snazzy ATX case for your Apple, your stuck with the ugly cheese grater design that apple gives you. My computer comes In a jeantech case with neon fans, and case window. I can't get that with Apple!
• single vendor. I can't go to Dell and ask for a G5, I have to ask Apple. Loads of companies are making innovative cases and machines in the highly competitive world of the AMD64/IA-32
• People demand more than just pretty colours. Linux give them an industrial strength operating system, as used in neuclear weapons simulations, while still providing a pretty face. Out of all the companies I have been contracted to fix their servers, only one had an Xserve. This company was mostly Sun/Win.

So there you have it, Apple is still in the proprietery dark ages while Linux and open hardware is ruling the enthusiast market, and with new technology such as Winex, Lindows, Xandros and Linare, it is taking over what apple really wanted, A simple, affordable computer that anyone can use! If Apple wants to survive, it needs to:

• Scrap OSX and go with a G5 linux distro
• Get rid of its propreitery form factors and make ATX compatible motherboars
• Sell G5 processors at a reasonable price

Re:No wonder.

[FuzzieNorn]

Wine runs MacApps now?

Re:No wonder.

[pdwestermann]

I wouldn't even know where to begin with your post, but if you're going to go right out and say something as foolish as : "Linux distributions have caughtup and surpassed OSX in terms of ease of use, avalible applications and price", try not to make yourself look even worse by claiming your post is insightful "no matter what". Ease of use? I somehow doubt you've ever used OS X for more than a couple minutes, but I'm sure you havn't had the chance....too busy playing around with photoshop, maya, logic, studio MX, MS office and painter 7 right? Oh, wait.......

Re:No wonder.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahahahahahahaha...

25 years of developing an OS, but scrap it all and go with Linux...
Which is sooooo simple to use, I mean OS X is just so complicated and unintuative...

What a joke.

Re:No wonder.

[Junta]

G5, given, not that impressive, and doubly unimpressive when Apple doesn't take full advantage of it (running 32-bit if I recall still...).

Linux distributions caught up? No, and it never can catch up with Apple's situation, Windows can't either. Linux can catch up with Windows (already has, depending on your tastes and distro) in user friendly, but it is not possible to catch up to OSX. Why? OSX is inherently nice, but the extra mile is that they *know* all the combinations of hardware they support, it is a small population, at a quick glance they know exactly what drivers are needed and exactly how things are configured in that system. There is no need to ask the user for drivers, or how to use things, the OS ships with all required drivers and the system designers have already decided for the user exactly how the hardware will function, for better or for worse.
-Proprietary hardware/form factors: Yes, that is true, and I prefer and you prefer flexibility. You prefer flashiness (neon fans? sounds ugly...) and can get that, I prefer simplicity, I can get it. I can customize every detail of a PC, and I like that. Apple's default is a clean design that appeals to most and the target audience don't want choice, they just want whatever Apple gives them and wants it to work. This is a large, sensible target to market to, and their desires can only be met by restricting their choices they don't care about.
-Single vendor: ties in to the previous point, really annoying (like the prospect of having to go to the dealer you bought your car from for everything?), but it is simply how they operate and helps them maintain tight control and hardware/software platform integration cleanly. Distribute among vendors and lean towards standards and the difficulty of making the OS 'just work' increases dramatically.
-Industrial strength OS? OSX is, has BSD underpinnigs. The big Mac cluster is a clear testament to OSX being industrial strength. Just because it has flashy surface, does not mean the underpinnings are as flimsy as OS9.. You start digging into the OS more and you'll find it very interesting, and you can even ditch Quartz alltogether, use X or console and have a very FreeBSD like experience. Not that you need to for 'industrial strength' operation, but some people need to do/see that before they can believe in the platform.

-They should *not* scrap OSX. They finally got it right, don't screw with it. Sure, I'd love to see quartz ported to linux/x86 or even linux/ppc, but there is no value in it for Apple. BSD is equivalent *and* they don't have to worry about GPL details (thought they do contribute back as a good gesture through Darwin)
-Moving to industry standard approach like PC world will dilute their image, confuse current market, and chances are the rest of the market don't give a rat's ass about having a G5 as there are AMD64 processors available that can run their x86 apps today and give them 64bit capabilities for tomorrow.
-G5 processors at a reasonable price, I assume you mean systems. Yes, you and I think they aren't worth it, but Apple's marketing has determined it is the best balance of market share to profit margin. If it works for them, well, that's fine.

CPUs?

[peterpi]

I didn't know apple sold CPUs.

Re:CPUs?

[trippinonbsd]

I also am SICK of people confusing parts of a system as a computer. The list of things commonly confused with as a computer.

• Monitor
• CPU
• CD or DVD
• Hard Drive
• Modem

and you can't tell them otherwise...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[superdan2k]

It's the typical death knell shit. It is to laugh. I've been a regular Mac user since 1994. It doesn't phase me. Especially when I have literally dozens of co-workers that are making the SwitchTM at home and at the office. Most of our VPs have gone over to Powerbooks, our designers are making the switch to Macs at the office, and lots of people who aren't designers or overpaid VPs are buying them for home use. The primary reason seems to be iLife -- everyone I talk to is making home movies with iMovie, burning DVDs for relatives, getting prints through iPhoto, etc. And everyone tells me, "I can't believe I ever used a PC."

Apple? Dying? Yeah, yeah, yeah...same old bullshit.

iPod mini

[chia_monkey]

Hm...too expensive? I guess that's why there were 100,000 pre-orders for the iPod mini? Let's see...I believe that comes out to about $25 million in PRE-ORDER sales. And since then Apple has sold out of the iPod Minis. Doesn't sound like being too expensive is a problem for Apple.

Re:Market share side note

[ThosLives]

So? Market share doesn't really mean anything. Look at Nissan; they have a very small market share but were the second most profitable auto company (behind Toyota) in 2003.

It goes to show that it's not how much you have, but what you do with what you do have.

What will "save" Apple is the quality difference..

[rthille]

Now that the price differenece isn't so great, the quality difference between the Apple/OS-X experience and the PC/Windows experience is what will bring people back to Apple. Remember, for lots of people, especially people with money to burn, Quality is very important, and worth paying for.
Sure, no one would buy BMW or Mercedes if you couldn't drive on the same roads, but the Apple/PC situation is more akin to driving an electric car or diesel. Sure it can be more of a hassle to fill up, but the other benefits are worth it.

One of the Points

[virg_mattes]

> An Ipod mini is not a $250 piece of gear, okay? And a 40 GB Ipod is *really* not a $500 piece.

This is one of the points that the article is considering. Low margin means that the sale price is not much higher than the price to market, and price to market includes a lot more than the cost of manufacturing. How much do those snazzy commercials take from the budget? How many dollars disappear to get the ITunes concept going? These sunk, hidden costs are part of the equation, and they can cut profitability on a product line faster than you can say "betamax", especially since Apple was banking on Ipods driving people to buy more Macintosh computers, and it really hasn't happened.

Virg

Re:One of the Points

[dnoyeb]

I dont know about apple counding on ipod driving people to buy a computer. But this whole thing is much of an investment. Apple is more popular today than ever. Plus with the ipod there names will be known to all teenagers.

I think if anything this is an excellent time to invest in Apple.

Disclaimer: I have not reviewed their books. They could be cooking them, who knows.

Re:One of the Points

[bluesangria]

I think Apple was counting on iTunes to sell more iPods. Period. If they had wanted to sell more Macs, why release iTunes and iPods for the PC?

blue

Re:One of the Points

[Anonymous Coward]

i have heard of a few people on my university campus that have bought apple computers because they loved their ipod so much, but then again the university scene is very mac-friendly and has quite the influence from apple.

but i think their best way to drive CPU sales is to promote whats been going on behind-the-scenes for years -- fellow mac users telling others that they NEED a mac. i have seen this happen quite a few times. i first owned a 15" powerbook, and told my closest friends, roommate, and mother about how great it is. now my roommate owns a 12" powerbook, and my mother a 17" imac. and because my mother bought an imac, she showed it to one of her friends who was religiously against macs due to contagious ignorancy (she kept asking about all the mac myths that are commonplace), and then she bought a 12" ibook G4 and loves it. so thats really what drives apple sales, in my opinion. i can't forsee my roommate, my mother, or my mother's friend going back to a PC for years to come.

Re:One of the Points

[sg3000]

> Low margin means that the sale price is not much higher than > the price to market, and price to market includes a lot more
> than the cost of manufacturing. How much do those snazzy
> commercials take from the budget? How many dollars
> disappear to get the ITunes concept going?

I don't think this is true. Direct margin is calculated simply as

(selling price - direct material and direct labor cost)

So if the price = 2.00, and the materials cost is 0.50 and it takes 0.50 of direct labor to assemble and ready it for shipment out of the factory, then the direct margin is 2.00 - (0.50 + 0.50) = 1.00.

Some items are combined from the manufacturing overhead (like equipment setup charges, supervisor salary, factory cafeteria, etc) are allocated as overhead to the cost of goods sold, usually as a percentage.

However, ads, marketing budget, R&D, software development, administration charges, etc are allocated as a period expense and considered on a company-wide basis that isn't attributed to a particular product.

Re:Market share side note

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that market share and install base are different concepts?

Let's see your Dell zealots

[Eevee]

When you can show me a public display like the Longest Line then I might agree. (Be warned, it's a video clip.)

Re:Let's see your Dell zealots

[I_am_jsking]

Sweet mother of ... well, holy crap! that's like ... umm... alot of people. It lookes like the line stretches several miles. I've been to the Ginza store, and it's cool, yeah, but ... not worth an entire day of my life to see once. king

Re:Let's see your Dell zealots

[baumanj]

Gee, I wonder how many would have turned out if the weather was nice?

OTOH, Japanese have umbrellas built into their quadriceps like robocop

Owning Up

[Beardydog]

And I totally didn't mean to post that anonymously. Teh s uck for me.

Counterpoint

[seven5]

http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/200 4/20040318.shtml

...
Of course, what he doesn't say is that this is because Apple has been investing in R&D. I don't want to get too far off the point, but it seems most Wall Street analysts and mainstream pundits and journalists don't get that the iPod rocks because Apple spent a boatload of money developing it. It wasn't produced by gnomes working in a magical Gnome Cave; it was produced by people, very talented people who cost money.
...

Only Apple can save Apple...

[rayde]

I've long been an Apple supporter, and have long been frustrated by their decision to remain a niche market. They have the style and technology to really become a leader... no, THE leader, but by keeping everything closed and under their own control has really left them exposed to articles like this.

Like many of the Apple faithful, I hope to see new hardware based on industry standard components (read: x86), which will hopefully drive the prices down to the point where people like myself and many other /. readers can actually afford to buy it. We all know we want to use OS X. It's like Linux without all the pain.

People always complain that Mac OS gets no games or other 3rd party software. The simple fact is it's not worth a game developer's time or money to make software for a platform with such a small userbase. The userbase has to expand. Period. Otherwise the Mac will remain a niche.

Apple isn't about to die, regardless of what any company says. Here's to hoping that the success of the iPod will fund a push by Apple into making Macs cheaper and accessible to everyone.

Re:Only Apple can save Apple...

[swb]

I always get flamed for this, but there was a time a few years ago that I think that Apple should have bought (not merged, but *bought*) SGI and standardized OS X across the entire product line from iMac to the highest end SGI system, importing SGI UNIX and/or hardware innovations where necessary.

It would have kept Apple as a niche product, but would have widended the niche considerably, as well as providing a consistant user interface and platform from secretary to scientist. It would have provided Apple with a real entry to the corporate/scientific/industrial computing world. I know that Mac enthusiasts claim that G5/Xserve gives this to them now, but it doesn't come with a street rep or track record that SGI had.

Re:Only Apple can save Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmmm, SGI, so smooth and beautiful...

XBox?

[bagel2ooo]

If MS weren't in such the economical position they were in this would probably be stated with the losses they were taking with the xbox. Although I'm willing to bet that iPod is having a far larger margin of sales via iTunes than the xbox is with it's title releases.

Re:XBox?

[stratjakt]

XBox is doing what it's supposed to do. Grow the Microsoft brand. It was never supposed to be profitable, it's successors will be. They will, in time, displace Sony from the console market.

The Playstation wasn't profitable for a long time. They took a bath on it. Yet it had the desired effect, it knocked Nintendo, Sega, Atari, 3DO, etc right off of the map.

MSFT is moving in a direction that changes the whole idea of a game console. I predict a whole line of compatible set-top devices with different features sets. A DVD-gaming-internet jukebox with DVR, one without, one that just plays games, one that streams on-demand video, etc, etc.. I see them licensing third party vendors to produce compatible hardware.. I see a future where almost every TV has a box underneath it with the Microsoft logo on it somewhere.

On a long enough time line the survival rate ...

[mrvis]

On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

Has Fight Club taught you nothing?

Apple has to make a decision

[DesScorp]

"Apple has a core (no pun intended) market and a loyal customer base."

Well, yes and no.

There are a lot of longtime Apple customers, but as much as we nix people like OSX for its BSD base, OSX alientated a LOT of longtime Mac users that wanted nothing to do with Unix or command lines. A prime complaint was that the Mac interface was changed too radically, and that it looks nothing like the beloved old 9X-and-lower line. I've also heard some of these people complain that OSX is too slow, especially on G3 hardware. Personally, I know more Linux people that love OSX than longtime Mac people that love it.

And now Apple has a quandry. Rather than trying for mass-market appeal but making prices competitive with PC products, Apple has tried to maintain the "join-our-exclusive-club" approach, which requires a premium in price for customers. Yes, I know you guys are going "but Macs are so much better, and you get what you pay for, and Macs are a bargain even at these prices". Well, Joe Schmo customer doesn't agree. He's out at BestBuy or CompUSA looking for a new computer, and all he sees is that Macs 1- cost a lot more, and 2- can't run the games and software that PCs can. Plus, if Joe Schmo's expierience is anything like mine, when he tries out these newer Macs at the store, he's not going to be real impressed with the quality and feel of the Apple hardware (sorry, I think the keyboards and mice have a cheap feel to them now. They generally seem more shoddy than past Macs to me). He's going to be saying "So why should I pay 900 bucks for an Emac that's slow (with it's stock 128 or 256 mb of ram) when I can get this HP for 600, or this Emachines for 400?".

Apple has to decide if it's going to stay the exclusive-club route, or try to get more converts. If they do the latter, they're going to have to price Macs more competitivly. The club route doesn't seem to be working as well. Those old Mac fans I know? Some of them are trying their best to extend the life of their beloved old Macs through upgrades, and they're using 9X for as long as they can get away with it. So Apple either has to get them back, or hope that lots more Linux users convert.

And for Segway sucking, well come on, did anyone REALLY think people were going to adopt them en-mass? The Segway was always a niche market at best.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[drinkypoo]

Anyone alienated by Unix and commandlines, and thus alienated from OSX, is a goon. You don't even have to install the BSD environment, or at least you didn't last I checked. Sure you need it for a lot of fun functionality which wasn't present on OS9, but that's the whole point. You can go on using your mac as if it had support for one button and no command line if you want to just keep your head in the apple-shaped clouds, and no one will stop you. You don't need the Unix shell to install OSX-supported programs, or even to use Classic to run your beloved OS9.

The fact that OSX is too slow on G3 hardware is not really any blow against OSX, it's a blow against Apple that there are still people trying to use their G3, two generations old, and it's hard to upgrade. If the machines were cheaper you could just upgrade machines. If the processor were meant to be replaced you wouldn't have to put a new jumper block on it for the speed, though frankly I don't see that as much of a challenge. Of course, the G3 macs have an extremely shitty bus, so they're not really worth upgrading IMO, but that's a matter of opinion. OSX ran ok on my 350MHz rev 1 Yosemite with 256MB ram, but running big applications brought the system to its knees. OSX looks to be almost as ram-hungry as Windows XP, no big surprise when you've basically put two operating systems in the package.

Oh and it's "en masse". Which the way users flocked towards PCs when they became about one quarter the price of a roughly equivalent mac. These days the PC is only about half to two thirds the price, so I'd say Apple could stage a comeback if they just dropped their prices by 25%. I know I would love to have a dual G5 system, even in that dorky case.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[rlthomps-1]

Well, Joe Schmo customer doesn't agree. He's out at BestBuy or CompUSA looking for a new computer, and all he sees is that Macs 1- cost a lot more, and 2- can't run the games and software that PCs can.

So what are they going to do? Ship windows on the machine? Even if they cut prices to be "competitive" Joe Customer is still going opt for the PC because he can run his games and software on it. So in your senario Joe Customer would still buy the PC because it still has an advantage over his Mac unless the Mac was priced much lower than the PC to make up for its "crippled" status. Or maybe there's other reasons why folks buy Macs other than price and software availability.

See everyone's a freakin' expert on this, you don't think that Apple has a strategic financial think tank? You don't think that they're plotting the course best for them? Why is it that Apple critics think that becomming Dell is ONLY viable option for Apple?

I think Apple likes where they are. They're not the dominant strip n' ship shop, but they're cutting a profit and they're making innovative designs. Guess what? They're happy with that! Not every company needs to aspire to be Microsoft or Dell.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[oblivionboy]

"There are a lot of longtime Apple customers, but as much as we nix people like OSX for its BSD base, OSX alientated a LOT of longtime Mac users that wanted nothing to do with Unix or command lines. A prime complaint was that the Mac interface was changed too radically, and that it looks nothing like the beloved old 9X-and-lower line. I've also heard some of these people complain that OSX is too slow, especially on G3 hardware. Personally, I know more Linux people that love OSX than longtime Mac people that love it.
"

Sources? Citations? Studies? Even links to articles?

I have met NO Mac user to date that didn't think that OS X was an improvement on 9. Yes, it's slow on G3s, AND on some G4s too. No doubt about that. But if we make an analogy between XP being OS X and OS 9 being windows 2000, it's exactly the same. I can run 2000 comfortably on machines from five years ago, but NOT XP.

So what's your point? I think you just don't like Macs. Which is fine, but don't hide it behind unsupportable arguments and invented or anectodal evidence from your three friends.

"Well, Joe Schmo customer doesn't agree. He's out at BestBuy or CompUSA looking for a new computer, and all he sees is that Macs 1- cost a lot more, and 2- can't run the games and software that PCs can. Plus, if Joe Schmo's expierience is anything like mine, when he tries out these newer Macs at the store, he's not going to be real impressed with the quality and feel of the Apple hardware (sorry, I think the keyboards and mice have a cheap feel to them now. They generally seem more shoddy than past Macs to me). He's going to be saying "So why should I pay 900 bucks for an Emac that's slow (with it's stock 128 or 256 mb of ram) when I can get this HP for 600, or this Emachines for 400?".

1: And so this only applies to it's pre G5 line. Yes we know that Apple was dealing with limitations from Motorala not being able to produce G4s in the higher MHZ. Now IBM has solved this problem for them with the new PPC chip, which Apple markets as the "G5". And so?

2: And it only applies to people who are not informed, or are informed and don't want an Apple machine. Those that get informed, understand what they're getting into and have made a good choice. A good choice for them. Apple or X86, or whatever else they decide. There are lots of great reasons to buy an Apple, and to also pay a "premium". For sure, when ANYONE has to go into a situation to buy something and they know "nothing" about it, price is the only obvious criteria you can decide on, and people decide on it. But also to assume that people just plunk down $1000-$2000 without doing research, is maybe a little nieve. Again, maybe really you just don't like Apple. :)

3: And finally on the games issue, it only applies to people that absolutely have to play PC games. NEWSFLASH FOR YOU: The PC Gaming market is on a decline. It's being taken over by console.

Finally as for their "exclusive-club" route. I don't see how paying two to three hundred dollars more on a $2500 system to be exclusive or cluby. If I want the product, I will pay for it. Your use of the term, seems to suggest that, yes in fact you don't like apple, and really your whole post could have been summed up by that statement.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[blackmonday]

An anecdote, but a good one. My friend is a graphics designer, has been using Macs forever. I was a windows guy who got a powerbook. He didn't like or understand OS X. He worked well in 9 and that was enough. But 9 users live in a connected world. My friend sees my machine with expose, idvd, photoshop, keynote, etc, and decides to install OS X to dual boot his machine. The verdict? He spends his time entirely in OS X except for photoshop, which he runs in classic mode.

Long time Apple users suffered through a lot of FUD about OS X, but the numbers are changing.

As for OS X not running fast on an older G3 - How fast do you think Windows XP or Fedora runs on a pentium 2? Because Apple users are used to the fact that their hardware is worth good cash years after their purchase, they seem to feel entitled to the latest and greatest on their 5 year old hardware. Apple won't bother apeasing them - the money is in the G5 baby.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[scottennis]

The coolest thing I saw last year from my apartment balcony was a cop pulling over a Segway rider to give 'em a ticket.

So far this year the coolest thing I've seen was a guy sitting in a Starbucks, eating wilted salad from an old CoolWhip container.

This is all a round-about way to explain what people really mean when they say Apples are "cool".

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Anonymous Coward]

can't run the games and software that PCs can

I've seen some of those PC games. That's the equivalent of the following conversation:

Joe Customer: Look, Marge! We can get a plate of meatloaf for $10, or a bucket o' shit for $2.99.
Marge Customer: Git th' bucket Joe! Git th' bucket!

Of course, anyone who underestimates the stupidity of Joe Customer is pretty stupid themselves.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Codifex Maximus]

What Apple really needs to do (as well as Linux) is provide users with alot of great software at competitive prices; work with the software vendors to provide Apple versions of Windows software at no extra cost over the Windows version.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[JudgeFurious]

Exactly. Not every company aspires to be Microsoft or Dell BUT as long as they either aren't trying to be like those two or are trying but failing to accomplish it the standard party line from the press is going to be "They are dying".

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[amsr]

OSX alientated a LOT of longtime Mac users that wanted nothing to do with Unix or command lines.

Yes and no. If you ask my dad he probably doesn't even know the terminal.app exists and has no reason to use it. He happily edits along in photoshop, surfs the web, and checks his email. You are looking at this with your "slashdot" goggles on. Most people are just happy to know that they can get the security and stability of a UNIX based operating system, without having to go to the command line.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[metamatic]

Plus, if Joe Schmo's expierience is anything like mine, when he tries out these newer Macs at the store, he's not going to be real impressed with the quality and feel of the Apple hardware [...] "So why should I pay 900 bucks for an Emac that's slow (with it's stock 128 or 256 mb of ram) when I can get this HP for 600, or this Emachines for 400?".

You think people are going to dismiss the Apple hardware out of quality concerns, then buy an HP or eMachines system? I hope you're going to share some of that with everyone else.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[rjung2k]

I know a few OS9 "greybeards" who are stubbornly hanging on to their old Mac systems because they don't want to jump to MacOS X. But then, every OS has its holdouts; look at all the folks still running Windows 95/98, for instance.

Thing is, none of the Mac holdouts are jumping on to Windows, either. They'll probably keep running MacOS 9 until their hardware falls apart, at which time they'll reluctantly bite the bullet, buy a new Mac with MacOS X, and join the 21st century.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[lrucker]

OSX is too slow, especially on G3 hardware

10.0 was pretty pathetic on my first-generation iBook (it was a 233 or 300MHz G3), but 10.1 was much better and 10.2 did everything I needed even better than 9.x had.

Imagine, an OS that gets faster with each release.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how paying two to three hundred dollars more on a $2500 system to be exclusive or cluby.

I think this statement just demonstrates that Mac users are living in a timewarp. 7-8 years ago a "good" PC cost $2500, but not any more. Try $1000 .. or less.

(I've seen this IRL too -- many Mac users just assume that computers still cost 2 Grand ... if they ever went to dell.com, they'd see the light.)

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[sootman]

New system driving away users? New system requires too much hardware? Where have I heard this before? It didn't kill them in '89 and I don't think it will 15 years later.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think more than a fraction of the people buying a Mac nowadays even know what UNIX is--much less its "security and stability"--you've forgotten to remove your Slashdot goggles too. :-)

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't say about XP, but I can about Fedora, one of my servers is Celeron 333, 256 RAM.

A lot faster than any Redhat 'till now.

I was even joking and using it as failsafe machine
GUI: Afterstep with ROX on top, MPlayer, XMMS

Well, you should try and you might eat what you said

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[danila]

Segway was a high-risk high-payoff project. There was a chance that it would revolutionise the human transportation. Well, it didn't. Doesn't mean it couldn't. Check out the latest Toyota robots - one of them have the same 2 wheel base. Actually even before I've heard about the Segway Robotic Platform I though it would be cool if we can have highly mobile robots driving around on two wheels. Wheels absolutely kick ass when you need eXtreme mobility and don't have to worry about terrain/stairs.

So, in conclusion, Segway was a risky bet which didn't pay off, but it doesn't mean it couldn't and it doesn't mean it won't in the foreseeable future.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Ohreally_factor]

I know a few of these guys myself. They feel very bitter and personally betrayed by Apple. Yet, when they do give OS X an honest try, say for more than a week of serious use, they invariably fall in love with it.

Re:Apple has to make a decision

[Ohreally_factor]

Two things I've noticed about running OS X on older hardware.

1) Memory, memory, memory. Max it out for best performance. VM is built in, not an option.

2) Jaguar and especially Panther brought noticeable performance gains on older hardware.

Uh, make that three things.

3) If you don't have memory maxed out, don't open more than three or four apps. I guess this point is more an extension of point 1. On my more current 800 Mhz Ti with one gig of RAM, I normally have 10 to 20 apps open.

Uh, make that four things. . .

4) If you can upgrade the graphics card on your older hardware, do it. Quartz Extreme also make a big difference in GUI performance. Of course, by the time you upgrade memory and video, you'll be thinking about upgrading the CPU and maybe the hard drive, at which point it might be cheaper to just get new(er) hardware. Obviously this doesn't apply to the iMac, eMac, or the laptops, since you cannot upgrade the video or the cpu.

My story, I guess.

[imag0]

I remember the 0.97-pre-1 days quite well when Linux stunk on ice, boys and girls. I've use Linux and UN*X for quite some time, helped write training manuals during the dot-bomb days and have enjoyed the Linux and UN*X communities thoroughly.

This year when it was time to upgrade to another computer, did I get a bitchin' dual processor rig with gobs of ram, all bone crushing speed and input jacks galore?

No. I got a (nice, used) Quicksilver 867 with a Superdrive and an iBook to take with me on vacation. I can develop software, scripts and all sorts of goodies in the shell or just jump and start up a nice game of Q3A, or UT2004, or whatever. These pieces of hardware to the job that couldn't be done by others for ideological, historical, or monetary reasons and I'm glad that someone put unix on the desktop in a fashion that is easy to use and has plenty of future still in it.

Unix has made it to the desktop, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for an excellent job, Apple.

I'll be back to buy more sooner than later.

There are a few bad apples though

[Anonymous Coward]

read this

I don't see it

[TheSwirlingMaelstrom]

I attend both astronomy and computing conferences regularly. In the last year or two (since Mac OS X and the new line of PowerBooks really started catching on) I have seen a dramatic change in the laptops being used at these conferences. A couple years ago, there would have been a handful of Dells, a few IBMs, some Sonys, and maybe, just maybe, an Apple or two out of fifty laptops. This has changed to point where 30%-40% of all laptops I see at these conferences are now Apple PowerBooks or iBooks running OS X.

I've never been a huge fan of Apple, but have always grudgingly admitted that their OS has always been better designed from a useability point-of-view than Windows (and, sadly, Linux desktops), and that their aesthetics in hardware and software design are way better than any other company's. And, despite what a few earlier commentors have posted, Apple's hardware is usually quite good (with the exception -- up until the introduction of the G5 -- of their processors which have largely sucked. Thanks Motorola!).

I'm a Linux user at work and at home and will likely be replacing my home computer sometime soon. I had been thinking that I would just build a PC (Windows free) and install linux, and helping my wife and son with the transition. I now think that my next computer will be a Mac. I still don't consider myself a huge Apple fan, but what they offer is way better designed than anything else out there at this time.

I really think that Apple has driven the thin edge of the wedge between some traditionally non-Apple users and the usual Windoze OS/hardware that they would normally buy. Apple has re-invented itself in the past and, I think, innovated way more than many other companies. I think that they just might succeed in driving that wedge in further.

Re:I don't see it

[praedor]

Well...my future laptops, as far as I can see, will remain squarely in the PC catagory - running linux. I build my own desktop systems (for myself and my wife). That said, when the day comes that I cannot find a non-DRM bios mobo/system geared towards removing my rights and control of my system in favor of software companies and media companies then I will most assuredly become an Apple desktop user. I will jump ship to OS X and linux on the Mac.

So long as Apple stays out of the DRM/take away user rights game, they have a happy future. They will be the refuge of those intelligent enough to NOT go quietly into corporate control of their hardware, media, and, indirectly, their lives.

Re:I don't see it

[polyp2000]

So long as Apple stays out of the DRM/take away user rights game, they have a happy future. They will be the refuge of those intelligent enough to NOT go quietly into corporate control of their hardware, media, and, indirectly, their lives.

dont tempt fate, I wouldnt place my hopes there just yet, DRM is already there with iTunes, at least not yet it hasnt made the transition into bios/openfirmware. Mac's are certainly perceived as having a larger userbase than Linux, whether thats true or not is debatable. If Apple were to lock out Linux via hardware DRM (can they do this with Darwin being opensource?), well, think about how it might affect their position in the marketplace.. For Apple it might not be such a bad move.

Re:I don't see it

[MattHaffner]

If Apple were to lock out Linux via hardware DRM (can they do this with Darwin being opensource?), well, think about how it might affect their position in the marketplace.. For Apple it might not be such a bad move.

What?

What would they possibly have to gain by doing such a thing? Linux, especially on PPC, is not a threat to OS X in the least. If anything, they are mutually beneficial to each other since they can share code bases that are 99% the same.

But none of that makes any difference since Apple's profit is coming from you buying the machine, not the OS. Whether you actually use OS X or Linux on the box is only secondary in some respects to get to think about their other application offerings. But honestly some of those (say iLife) are likely loss-leaders themselves to get you to want to buy a machine--not the actual software.

Apple makes hardware and to sell that hardware, they make good software to make you want to buy their hardware. You buy the hardware, they're happy.

Re:I don't see it

[douthat]

For Apple it might not be such a bad move.

I think it would be a terrible move, and Apple knows it too. I think what people often forget is that Apple is a hardware company first, and a software company second. While Steve Jobs may salivate at the thought of having the world running OS X on Apple computers, he wouldn't mind the world running Linux on Apple computers either, if that floats their respective boats.

... And the machines that apple sells to linux folks isn't just good for Apple and Jobs, its good for the shareholders

... and the buck stops there.

Re:I don't see it

[polyp2000]

I totally agree with what you and the other poster are saying, as much as i like apple hardware and to an extent the OS (I am by no means an experienced apple user) , and as much as the they have improved over the years in my eyes as a company. Im not sure just how far my trust goes with them yet (a lot further than with M$ though thats for sure) That will probably change though , as soon as i can afford a powerbook ;)

Can't help but think..

[p4ul13]

Every year or so we see these articles, and ever year or so it seems that Apple seems to pull through and live on for another year.

This being the case, Apple is either really dying and has just been narrowly escaping death for almost 30 years, or the "Apple is dying" article is just something the tech reporters polish off every once in a while when its a slow news day and they want to stir up some interest. Think about it, if there's nothing big and / or interesting to write about this week, why not publish the "Apple is Dying" report again to stir up the Mac fans. It definitly gets the attention of some folks while not having to produce any real news. It's a cash-cow article.

We're all dying ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... in the Sylvia Plath sense of the word.

Re:We're all dying ...

[Kredal]

but not like chloe is dying.

Re:too expensive

[Chess_the_cat]

Apple's #1 problem is the price.

That's like saying Corvette's number one problem is the price. If only Corvette's were cheaper, I might have grabbed one! Dude, Apples are marketed to young urban professionals and people studying to be professionals. And to those people, the price isn't an issue.

Apple's Lifeblood

[swordboy]

Nobody ever seems to put this together but everytime Apple makes a threat to port their OS to x86 hardware, Microsoft makes some sort of "investment" and they quietly drop the plan. Microsoft is actually Apple's savior and will be as long as x86 is there for the taking.

Remember Yellow Box? Remember the Microsoft investment?

Apple on Intel would have several hundred of my dollars, if they'd ever release it.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[twbecker]

I was not aware that Apple ever "threatened" to do this. It would almost certainly be an empty threat anyway. Does anyone actually believe that Apple would ever port OSX to x86? I certainly don't. People always seem to forget that Apple is, at heart, a HARDWARE company. They only use thier OS and other software to drive their hardware sales. True, if OSX was ported to commodity hardware, I think MS would lose customers in droves, but this would require a major change to Apple's philosophy and business model.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[Moofie]

*sigh*

Again.

The Microsoft investment was a settlement for a lawsuit that Apple was about to win. It wasn't a sign of the Apocalypse.

And again.

Your hundreds of dollars aren't worth the insane support costs Apple would incur trying to unfuck the x86 platform.

Repeat after me. Apple is a hardware company. They are profitable if and when they remember that.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[mbbac]

Microsoft has never invested in Apple. Microsoft has settled lawsuits with Apple in the past, however.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[Mr Guy]

You sure?

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[spectre_240sx]

Maybe that would be a good thing? I'd LOVE to have the ability to choose between different hardware architectures and still run the same operating system. This is one place where linux is beautiful. Unfortunately, it's just not ready for a lot of users yet. No support for Photoshop, Dreamweaver and many of the other applications that I use daily. Maybe Apple is in the same position that Sega was a few years back. Granted, they are a hardware based company now, but maybe they don't have to be? Their software is what drives people to them, maybe they should change their focus. Whichever way things go, I think we have an exciting few years ahead of us.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[mbbac]

Yes, I'm sure. That was the result of a settlement.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[webslacker]

Incorrect. If the $150m was a settlement, Apple would've kept the money for good. Since it was just a $150m investment, Microsoft has since sold off shares in Apple at a tidy profit.

The settlement had to do with other terms.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[sonOfNettdata]

ahhh, I don't think so.

Microsoft invested $150 million for Apple non-voting stock. It strikes me as being very strange that a "settlement" would include them getting stock for their payment.

Here's their own press release:

Microsoft Press Release

Regardless of their motivation, they still invested.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[coyotl]

Apple on Intel would have several hundred of my dollars, if they'd ever release it.

I'm sure they would appreciate your money! But they aren't asking for it.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[brianosaurus]

NeXT was originally a hardware company, too. They also had their operating system, NeXTStep, which ran on their custom 68000-based hardware. After a few years of people not buying thier overpriced boxes in droves, they ported to several platforms, including x86. Then they got bought out by Apple, and several years later, we got OSX.

There are constant rumors that Apple has OSX running on x86. The open source Darwin bits run on x86. They use PC(-ish) video cards and peripherals. If at some point they decide to officially support other platforms, they can easily do it.

But the company is fine. They don't need 95% marketshare in order to be a success. This Highlander-like obsession with consolidation and suing competitors into bankruptcy is insane. There CAN be more than one.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[Genom]

I'd LOVE to have the ability to choose between different hardware architectures and still run the same operating system. This is one place where linux is beautiful. Unfortunately, it's just not ready for a lot of users yet. No support for Photoshop, Dreamweaver and many of the other applications that I use daily.

I think you're placing the blame on the wrong side of the equation here.

Saying "[Linux has] No support for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and many of the other applications I use daily" makes it seem like this is a failing of linux - that somehow linux is supposed to "support" these applications.

Linux is an operating system. It doesn't provide support for a given program. A given program is written with the intention of running on linux. Or not. The decision here is not one that Linus and the linux community make - but one that Adobe, Macromedia, and the companies that make the applications make.

So the better thing to do, rather than rail on linux for "not supporting" your chosen apps, is to rail on the companies that make those apps for not supporting linux. The more people who complain, the more interest is shown in the vendor porting their apps to linux, the more chance there is of those apps actually *being* ported.

So, email Adobe, Macromedia, and the rest, and express interest in linux ports of their apps. Chances are you'll get a stale form letter in return thanking you for your interest, but saying the market isn't there yet. But...if enough folks show interest, maybe they'll catch on that there *is* a market, and eventually port their apps over.

I agree, however, that the next few years should be rather interesting. =)

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[spectre_240sx]

That's very true and I should have worded the statement differently. I had no intentions of railing on linux, however, I just meant to say that I'm not in a position where I can use it as my main operating system. :)

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[soft_guy]

Linux is an operating system. It doesn't provide support for a given program. A given program is written with the intention of running on linux. Or not. The decision here is not one that Linus and the linux community make - but one that Adobe, Macromedia, and the companies that make the applications make.

This is not exactly true. I work for a company that makes a high volume software product for both MacOS X and Windows 2K/XP. We would like to make a version of it for Linux. However, Linux does not have the correct "support" for us in their OS. What I mean by this is that there is not a standard binary format for developing Linux software applications and having them work on "Linux" PCs. Instead, you have to create a different binary for every version of every Linux distribution. This is a nightmare. The Open Source guys get around this by just shipping source code and having the user compile it themselves. We do not have that option for a variety of reasons. One of which is that we have some algorithms in our product that has military applications and we've been going back and forth with the DOD regarding these algorithms. I'm not directly involved in those discussions and IANAL, so I don't know a lot of details about it except to say that we will not be shipping source code.

Until Linux gets some support for an executable format that can work on all versions of Linux, we won't be shipping a Linux version of our app. Obviously I don't expect miracles. I'd be totally willing to have support only for x86 Linux (i.e. I get that Linux on PowerPC could not run the same executable and I know there are Linux solutions for a variety of chipsets), but if Apple can have one executable work on OS 8.6, 9.0, 9.1, 9.2, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3, then I ought to be able to run the same app on the same PC whether it running RedHat or some new rev of RedHat, or Suse, or any other Linux distro. It ought to be more like developing for WinCE which supports multiple chipsets, but the same app works on two different devices if they have the same processor family. I also believe that if you do the right things (i.e. use documented calls), you can write an app for CE that works with newer versions of CE. Every other platform I've developed for is the same way. Older well written apps work with newer revs of the OS with some rare exceptions. Linux needs to behave that way or you will continue to not have commercial development.

If you're OK using Gimp instead of Photoshop, more power to you! If you don't *want* versions of commercial programs, that's fine by me. Linux and Open Source are wonderful just the way they are, but don't bitch that you don't have commercial developers lining up when Linux goes out of its way to make it hard for us to deliver software in a manner that is acceptable to us.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[StarCat76]

Why couldn't you just link the binary statically rather than dynamically? Wouldn't that prevent troubles with library locations that seem to be your problem.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[spacehunt]

You might want to have a look at the Linux Standard Base for a widely supported binary executable format standard.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[ebuck]

A bit misinformed.

Linux uses the ELF (The Executable and Linking Format) which is available across all platforms.

However, you won't get that Intel code to run on a Motoral chip, but then again, you can't do this right now with Windows or OSX. So it's no loss to you.

The gcc compiler (and nearly all others) have flags which allow you to constrain your use of op-codes to those likely to run on a widely adopted chipset. Many use 386s as the base, as it is supported in all Intel/AMD CPUs. Others have moved to 586 as the base. Either way, you're not in as dire straits as you advertise.

I mean, other companies manage to sell close proprietary software in the Linux arena, implying that it's not impossible (and profitable in their cases).

As far as directory structure goes, etc. LSB addresses these issues. If you're looking for something that's found in two or three places (and not addressed by the LSB), write a friggn "switch" clause or a couple of "if" statments.

Re:Apple's Lifeblood

[denzombie]

There is the option to support a specific distribution of Linux. Maya and Shake both only support versions of Red Hat, probably for the reasons you cite.

Just an FYI.

Win 3.11

[mobiGeek]

...yes and as soon as Microsoft adds a GUI to their MS-DOS, Apple will be dead for sure...

Clouds on the horizon, though

[panurge]

I like Macs, and I've bought them steadily since 1989 (recent convert, huh?). But I had to replace my laptop and I'm typing this on an Acer 1501. Yes, I'm sorry. It's heavy. But I don't travel a lot. Battery life isn't huge ( about 2 and a half hours evening use, less when working.) But it has a more than decent screen, 1.8GHz AMD64 processor, it can expand to 2G of RAM, the hard disk is easily replaceable and upgradeable, it has 2.4x DVD+RW and it will run a 64 bit operating system just as soon as I have enough drivers. (I tested XP Pro 64 last night; it found the video but nothing else). And it cost less than half what the G5 powerbook is likely to cost.

About the time Apple needs to launch the PB G5, there will be a lot of competition in the 64 bit market. OK, Apple will probably survive, but the important market share in high end laptops may be severely threatened.

And yes, I know the AMD64 is a kludge (it's like a Tomcat with a piston prop on the front), but it's a hellishly compatible kludge. I like elegant processor architectures, but this one works and works well.

I'm a "glass half full" kind of guy

[laird]

When I go to high-end tech conferences (TED, PC Forum, Pop! Tech, etc., the kind company CTO's go to) all I see are PowerBooks. Heck, and PC Forum the lone Vaio user taped an Apple logo to the lid of his computer in order to "fit in." So Apple clearly completely owns the "leading edge" tech user market, which is a good indicator of where the general market is heading. That is, if the people that build Yahoo, eBay, etc., all use Mac's, then (1) the things they build work on Mac's, and (2) they influence everyone around them to consider Mac's.

And on a more mundane level, Apple is also more profitable than almost any other personal computer company (most are losing money, Apple is profitable). Apple has figured out how to make a retail store chain work (unlike Gateway). Apple has the best brand in the computer business, the best customer loyalty, and highest customer satisfaction. Apple completely dominates the new, rapidly growing digital music sales market. And their platform is the basis for the best price/performance supercomputer on the planet. That's all got to be worth something!

,mac

[FooMasterZero]

Actually i have no idea if they make any money on it but .mac accounts sales are probably nice vien of income as well, and even better for those who use it enough to fork out for space upgrades.

Since technically even if you don't own a mac you can still have a .mac account but i think most .mac people own macs ?

Numbers

[Mr. Underbridge]

I'm writing this from a Mac myself, but the information you posted is wrong. If you look at the Google reports for Feb 2004, the Mac users are 4%. Now look at report for June 2001. The amount reported for Mac users....... 4%

Not to rain on your parade, but with one sig.fig. data, they could increase their marketshare by over 25% (3.51% to 4.49%) and you wouldn't be able to tell.

Re:Numbers

[RoshanCat]

Not to rain on your parade, but with one sig.fig. data, they could increase their marketshare by over 25% (3.51% to 4.49%) and you wouldn't be able to tell.

Not to rain your parade, they could have decreased their marketshare by 25% from 4.49% to 3.51% and you wouldn't be able to tell.

According to Zeitgeist Apple's marketshare swings between 3 and 4 in recent times and that increases the probability that it is somewhere in the 3.5% region

Re:Numbers

[Mr. Underbridge]

Not to rain your parade, they could have decreased their marketshare by 25% from 4.49% to 3.51% and you wouldn't be able to tell.

Obviously. I don't have a parade, as I don't care, but I always shake my head at poor use of statistics. I guess I'm the stats version of the ever-present /. grammar nazi.

According to Zeitgeist Apple's marketshare swings between 3 and 4 in recent times and that increases the probability that it is somewhere in the 3.5% region

I wouldn't contend otherwise. Honestly, I had no idea where in the range of 2%-6% apple's marketshare lay, nor the trend. But the interpolation/extrapolation of two points of 1-sigfig data, that gets me going.

What Part of the Market?

[Genady]

The question that market analysts don't seem to be asking is what segments of the market is Apple growing in?

I've seen Apple making headways into the SysAdmin space. Not as servers (though XRaid perhaps will) but as personal workstations. Just this week two die hard Sun and VMS people have decided that their next workstations should be Macs. Replacing Sun Stations.

*This* is the important bit that is getting glossed over. Apple is making inroads with the Technoarti in companies. UNIX Sysadmins at the top of the totem pole have been crying for a UNIX laptop for years and now Apple is giving it to them. One Java developer recently quoted in JDJ remarked: "I use a Mac, it's like Linux with class and QA." (or something close to)

Macs are quickly becoming the status symbols of the technical shamans in the backroom. It's not hard to imagine that from there the jump to the CIO and the board room is not far off.

This is what looking at gross marketshare misses. Apple is front-loading the desire for Macs in IT. If they can couple it at the right time (once they've penetrated into the SysAdmin/CIO segment) with inexpensive corporate-type desktops... the world could change quickly.

If Apple can appeal on the resilience to worms/viruses and bring TCO value to corporations the future is bright.

Re:What Part of the Market?

[mykdavies]

One Java developer recently quoted in JDJ remarked: "I use a Mac, it's like Linux with class and QA." (or something close to)

Heh, "one Java developer" - that would be James Gosling you're thinking of: "I tend to think of OSX [as] Linux with QA and Taste."

Re:What Part of the Market?

[akuzi]

> One Java developer recently quoted in JDJ
> remarked: "I use a Mac, it's like Linux with class
> and QA." (or something close to)

That wasn't just any Java developer - it was James Gosling (the main architect of Java).

Re:What Part of the Market?

[chochos]

Damn right... all the CxO's at the company I used to work for had Powerbook G4's since they came out and now have the new 17" powerbooks. Why? well, they look pretty cool in meetings, attraact attention from other people, run Office just fine, are cool for presentations, they can easily connect their digital cameras and iPods, and they don't have to hassle with system crashes, lockups, etc. It's the ideal laptop for a PHB.

Re:What Part of the Market?

[calica]

And that just shows how lucky Apple was to choose a Unix base for OS X. They're able to ride the Linux wave, yet remain separate. At some point, X11 with be installed by default and Cocoa will just be another widget set along with QT and GTK+. Apple with be forced to kicking and screaming, but eventual they will. I'm glad they have that option.

Re:What Part of the Market?

[Anonymous Coward]

I want some of that crack!

Sheesh, knee jerk or what..

[stratjakt]

Apple as a company will probably never go away.

Apple as a manufacturer of PC's most likely will. At least as they exist now.

Everythings wrong with their current business strategy. Expensive machines, limited upgrade potential, vendor lock in, increasing lack of third party interest.

So a top of the line dual G5 mac is really cool today. What about next year? Can you upgrade the CPU on a mac? You could upgrade an intel/amd proc for about a quarter the cost of the machine, motherboard and cpu.

OS/X is nice, but not nice enough. Apple has turned to the iPod, if not as a source of revenue, but as a source of hype. Noone out on the street is talking about the G5 or OS/X. They are talking about the iPod and iTunes.

Personally, I'd love to see Apple open up the platform to third party hardware vendors. I'd switch if I could "roll my own" mac, pick up a decent motherboard from Gigabyte, hell maybe even a G5 clone from AMD, etc..

I'm not going to pay for a fancy shmancy brushed aluminum case or color matched mouse. Maybe I would, if I knew that the next machine I put together can reuse the case.

It'll probably happen one day. Hopefully by the time it does OS/X isn't some obscure relic in the industry, and there's enough interest that vendors actually produce compatible products.

The Amiga should have put Commodore on top of the industry, it didn't.. Apple should, and no doubt is, gleaning whatever lessons they can from that.

Re:Sheesh, knee jerk or what..

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to break it to you Mr. Smarty-pants, but third party upgrade cards have been available for Macs for years and years. I could up my 4+ year old G4 450 MHz to a G4 1.4 GHz if I wanted to. But frankly, the 4 year old machine runs the latest version of OS X and just about all of my software perfectly well. Can you say the same of your 4 year old Windows box?

HAHAHAHAHAH

Re:Sheesh, knee jerk or what..

[daveaitel]

I don't buy the case that their business strategy is inherently flawed. These days, everyone is trying to emulate them. Look at Dell, everyone's rose-baby. Dell doesn't just want you to buy a computer, they want you to buy a lifestyle.

The major benefit of having a Apple computer is that everything works with it. No trying to get your camera to work. Even linux vendors like Element Computers are doing this. You buy your digital camera from Element not because it's a great digital camera, but because you know when you plug it in it will pop up on your desktop. This is why Microsoft doesn't let every OEM customize Windows to all hell and back, and why there's one XP Tablet Edition, and not thirty different ones.

You always know where to go to get something for an Apple. In the long run, they want to run the entire chain from hardware to OS to software to periferals, just like Microsoft, and for the same reasons.

-dave

Re:Sheesh, knee jerk or what..

[mookie-blaylock]

Noone out on the street is talking about the G5 or OS/X. They are talking about the iPod and iTunes.

This proves only one thing: That you are out of touch with the average consumer (you know, where 90% of the business is). An operating system is not exciting. It's not something to talk about, unless you're a nerd. A G5 is cool, but the iPod is cooler. The iPod mini? Maybe even cooler still.

But no one wants to be the wheezing dude at the street corner proudly talking the ears off everyone around him, explaining how great it is that his computer's operating system fuses the flexibility of unix with the ease-of-use of a mac. Nope, they'd rather be the one coolly standing there with the white earbuds, listening to something really hip.

I'm not saying this as a personal attack -- hell, OS X is why I switched -- just trying to illustrate the reality outside of the geek world.

Re:too expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been working at Apple doing tech support for almost two years now. I use an eMac all day in the office. The Apple computers are nice, but I haven't really been impressed enough to want to buy one, or seriously consider switching to using them primarily.

Re:Don't worry.

[stretch0611]

Gotta keep that second platform for Microsoft office open for business!

Wrong!!, gotta keep Apple afloat to proove that there is competition.

Microsoft: Apple has 3% market share, we only hav 97%, we're not a monopoly...

I agree!

[Frobozz0]

From where I sit... in a predominantly Windows technology firm, we have people either switching their work computers or their home computers to Macs running OS X. I know a LOT of people in other places that are buying Mac laptops with OS X.

I'm sorry, but overall marketshare is not a death knell. Just because so many large manufacturing plants, call centers, and places like that have cheap Wintel doesn't mean Apple is dying. Look around... I bet most of you know people who are switching to a Mac. I don't know ANYONE that has done the opposite since OS X came out.

Re:On a long enough time line the survival rate ..

[lee7guy]

On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

Has Highlander taught you nothing?

Hmm... I seem to be converting just fine...

[dalamarian]

Well, sitting here with my newly aquired ipod and my g4 that will be replaced with a powerbook after graduation... I have to wonder... I never would touch an Apple product till 8 months ago. At least thats just one converts story.

But he doesn't hate mac now

[Mr. Underbridge]

They've said many times, that iTunes makes them almost no profit at all. It pays it's costs, but the real reason behind iTunes is to drive sales of the iPod, which does have a relatively healthy profit margin.

The iPod (and HP branded iPod) are the only devices that currently play iTunes Music Store content without having to format shift the music.\

There's one more device that plays them - the mac. Look at it this way - he used to hate apple, now he thinks they're cool. There's at least a chance he'll drop cash on a powerbook, which make killer margins.

I realize the article claims apple isn't getting much from such promotion, but the analysis was a bit shaky. In general, the only way to get high margins from consumer computer equipment is to be perceived as "cool." And the ipod is really helping with that.

Nintendo?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Come on, Nintendo did need gameboy. They make more off of gameboy then they do off of gamecube. If you think they would have survived without gameboy, your smoking something fierce.

Re:Nintendo?

[H8X55]

I disagree. If the gameboy had never been released in the 80s i think nintendo would still be around today. now they use their early penetration to the handheld market as a tool. other better systems were released later but they couldn't outlast the good ole GB. the GB had already established trust, inexpensive platform, and everybody's had one, or know someone to have one. Now gameboy advance and advance sp are tremendous money makers for nintendo and they've got little to no real competition. But did the Gameboy save Nintendo? Nah, the Super Mario Bros. franchise did.

Re:Nintendo?

[stratjakt]

Without the gameboy series, Nintendo would never have been able to tread water with the N64 against the playstation.

They'd still exist, just like Sega still exists, as a software publisher only.

Gameboy's competitors tried to outdo it spec-wise, and priced themselves right out of the competition. There were some good products, GameGear with its full color screen almost a decade before GBC - and SMS compatible.. The Sega Nomad, a handheld Genesis.. Atari Lynx... They all cost way too much.

NeoGeo Pocket could have made inroads, it was reasonably priced for it's feature set, but SNK was already on it's knees and didn't have what it took to weather the storm. Poor SNK. If only they'd entered the console market earlier with a *reasonably priced* Neo Geo system, things just may have turned out different for the industry.

Re:Nintendo?

[Cryect]

/me shrugs

Either way they make money off both. So they are kinda like Apple not caring as much about marketshare as long as they keep on making money (though marketshare is nice). Kinda like how they supposedly made more than Sony did back with PSX vs N64 (Nintendo was charging a premium then and not sure if that statement is truely valid since haven't totaled up their profits on both).

You haven't been paying attention

[Del Vach]

The first rule of fight club is you do not talk about fight club.

The second rule of fight club is you DO NOT talk about fight club.

Re:You haven't been paying attention

[ceejayoz]

Yeah, but no one ever established the punishments.

Re:You haven't been paying attention

[TedTschopp]

yeah they did.

If it's your first night, you have to fight!

Re:You haven't been paying attention

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you done throwing your tantrum at John Kerry yet?

Re:You haven't been paying attention

[Anonymous Coward]

Tantrum?

lets hope they can pay the beatles off

[Anonymous Coward]

lets hope they have put away some cash for when they have to pay AppleMusic (the beatles label) who are suing them for trademark infringment who incidently have won every single time they have been in court with Apple, they had an contract that i would of though was watertight (with so many precedents) and now not only have they broken their contract specifically agreeing not to get into the music buisness but have gone on to make millions of dollars from from it, sure you can put off the invetible with appeals and the suchlike but then the expenses will just increase accordingly (backdated interest payments on the settlement sum)

this could prove rather expensive in court for Mr Jobs now that AppleMusic's US trademark has become diluted due to the actions of AppleComp

Not with a bang

[grikdog]

iPod is like an expensive prototype for the $25 mass market version that comes out next year (eventually? whenever!). Long on frangibles, very, very short on promises delivered in spacetime continua.

I don't see that happening.

[Thag]

In fact, what I see is a LOT of Apple users hanging onto their OS 9 machines for dear life, because OS X is such a pig they'd have to buy a new computer to get the same performance on it, and they feel (imho correctly) that OS 9 had a much better user interface.

I have an OS X machine and a Windows box at work. I'm not at all impressed with OS X, even after I replaced the mouse with something decent.

Jon Acheson

Re:I don't see that happening.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should get some new friends who earn more than minimum wage.

zealots

[Mr. Underbridge]

...to mod this entire article and discussion -1 Flamebait? Still, I guess Friday is a good day to have the Mac and PC zealots shouting at each other like howler monkeys.

I've often marvelled at statements like that. And let me preface this by declaring that I own a powerbook - but I have *never* met a PC zealot. PC users rarely care that muchabout the branding of their box. Most PC users care about the games on their box, or the GHz it has compared to the PC down the block. But mostly, they don't care about apple. It's always the "little guy" who has the chip on his shoulder, who is always making comparisons to the "big guy" (at least in terms of marketshare here).

These discussions aren't so much PC zealots vs. Mac zealots - it's usually mac zealots vs. the PC users who push their (our?) buttons for fun.

Re:zealots

[lotsofno]

If I had mod points to give, you sir, would have them.

Macs start at US $1000 or less

[doginthewoods]

Don't repeat the lie abut US$3000 Macs- makes you look trollish and out of date. Emacs can be had refurb for $700, pretty easily, and from apple, to boot.

iTMS

[renelicious]

You would think that a little research or a little knowledge would tell someone who seems to be a reporter in the financial market would be able to see that iTMS is still in development. Of course Apple doesn't get much money YET from each sale, but if they get a large share of the market (which they have right now) then when contract times comes up again, they can get a better piece of the pie.

Its alot like what another one of Steve Jobs' companies called Pixar did with Disney.

Gotta love Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

I got my first mac back in the 80s (][e) and I loved it. I build my own windows boxes now, but if I had the money to get a Mac I would ($500 vs $1500). Macs are the Bently, Benz, Rolls, Lamborgini of the computer world. I've never met anyone that complains about their Macs (10+ years tech support and consulting). I only ever get calls about problematic Windows boxes. My mother 60+ years old even says Macs rule.

Apple needs saving?

[kberg108]

If I remember correctly Apple has 20 billion in cash. If having 20 billion in cash means you need to be saved we are all doomed.

Re:Apple needs saving?

[Hassman]

Ahhh...no. They don't have 20 billion in cash. MS doesn't even have 20 billion in cash.

Do some reasearch before you blindly make statements.

Apple has has "Cash & Equivalents" of 3.4 billion (as of the end of '03). Just look at their balance sheet.

Though, I will agree, they are not doomed. They turn a profit every quarter, and last time I checked companies that post profits are not doomed.

Re:Apple needs saving?

[kberg108]

Actually MS has around 40 billion in cash. Read the following

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/131322_ms ft earn18.html

http://money.cnn.com/2002/04/12/pf/agenda_msft/

if you search google there are alot more than that. I understand the difference between value and cash in the bank and all these articles speak of cash in the bank. Also for Apple's cash check here and it's a shit load. http://www.hoovers.com/apple-computer/--ID__12644- -/free-co-fin-annual.xhtml

Re:Apple needs saving?

[thelasttemptation]

They turn a profit every quarter, and last time I checked companies that post profits are not doomed.

*cough*Enron*cough*

infinity lemma

[Anonymous Coward]

If we assume that there will be infinitely many companies founded in the future, we can apply the famous infinity lemma of D. Konig to prove that one company will live forever...

im doing my part

[Anonymous Coward]

well,

i'm going to get a second mortage on my home. that way I can afford to buy a "blazin" fast apple machine....Im sure steve will appreciate the efforts i make to keep his helicopter flying.

on the other hand, I can get faster, better hardware, that runs more software (either on windows or my choice of linux) for a fraction of the price.

I guess if a getting a funky "cheese gratter" box computer is really important to you, then dish out the 5-6k you need to buy a mac....otherwise Mr Jobs, too little too late.

PowerPC is going to help here

[Junks Jerzey]

Intel and AMD are floundering at the moment. AMD is roaring ahead with 64-bits, but not in terms of performance. Arguably, we don't need a whole lot more performance on the desktop right now, but that's another topic. Over a year ago, Intel was at the 3GHz mark. Now they've moved up to 3.4GHz, at the expense of significantly higher power consumption. They're dropping to a 90nm process (Prescott), and have somehow managed to drastically increase power consumption at the same time. What!? This doesn't bode well for notebooks and small form factor boxes.

But IBM is on track to hit 3GHz this summer and cut power consumption by ~50% at the same time. The roadmap goes out to much higher clock rates, and includes multiple cores on one chip. If this happens, and in a few years we're looking at dual core 4GHz PPCs that use less power than single-core Intel/AMD CPUs, then that's a big deal.

Iam sure Apple Corps (The Beatles) will agree

[Anonymous Coward]

who are suing them again over the same contract that AAPL have lost on numerous occasions

the lawyers wont even have to break a sweat, AAPL stockholders on the other hand might need a towel

I'm confused...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does explaining, and thereby ruining, a good joke make your post look idiotic, or am I supposed to rate this as Funny because I laughed so hard thinking that you believe that /.ers are all living under rocks and never heard that iPod batteries are replacable after all?

Or is making me confused part of the joke itself?

Now my head hurts.

The I pod didn't save this guy either

[amillband]

I-Pod domestic violence

Re:The I pod didn't save this guy either

[kilfarsnar]

Holy Cow! What a way to go! She must have been seriously pissed (or he seriously weak) to be able to bludgeon someone to death with an iPod!

sun workstation ?

[kurt555gs]

I am writing this on a DUAL 2Ghz G5 with a 23" cinima display. Why would I want a SUN or SGI work station when I have this.

Also, as far as this Apple is more expensive, why not compare APPLES to ORANGES.

How much is a Sun worstation, or an SGI FUEL? ..... dont compare this to a PC, compare it to what it really can compete with.

I think you will find the Apple hardware really really cheap.

Cheers

Re:sun workstation ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is Sparky, not everyone has a need for a SUN or SGI equivalent either.

Bang, argument dead

Re:sun workstation ?

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, huh? I think your missing the point of the post.

They aren't comparing the actual hardware, they are comparing the BUSINESS MODEL of the company.

(and how would what your writing your post on make any difference?)

Re:sun workstation ?

[darc]

>Also, as far as this Apple is more expensive, why not compare APPLES to ORANGES.

Okay.

http://www.inno-vet.com/articles/1999/0599/52.ht m

Re:sun workstation ?

[Too Much Noise]

wow, not so fast, cowboy! uhh ... make that Mac user instead. Go back, read the GP several times and meditate on the last sentence. Or, in case your Cinerama is blinding your brain, here's the clue: it's about a business model, not your beloved Mac (at least, not as it is now).

to rephrase the GP:
"Apple-type business model" example:
Sun -> used to kick ass -> where's the value in a Sun WS now?
Apple -> kicks ass now (from some perspectives) -> where will be the Apple WS tomorrow?

now, the comparison is not entirely fair - Sun had/has the burden of significantly more R&D both in hardware (Apple does not design all itputs in the box, not nearly as much as Sun did) and software (OS-X is targeted to a significantly narrower market, and the server version is in no position to stand a comparison with Solaris). So maybe Apple has a fighting chance if they play their cards right. They do have traction in the laptop segment, which tends to get more and more significant these days. The problem is, Intel is going Apple-killer with the Centrino brand and they have the power of numbers. And, in general, the PC side of the market tends to react sooner or later to any new ideas, be them Apple's or not. So it's a tough living, but gee, what a surprise.

Time will tell about Apple dying or not, but you'd better pray for the latter, or your nice gig will have to run Linux if Apple sinks.

Re:sun workstation ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I don't understand how you are discribing the reason why you don't need a SUN or SGI because you have a 23" cinama display?

Why the heck does that matter when we are talking about MAC and SGI hardware? I could Smack a 30" Plasma screen for a little bit more than what you paid for yours and call it a day if thats how you look at computer hardware.

The sad thing is...

[Omega1045]

...that Apple usually paves the road for others. Mac exists in that 2% of the Bell Curve that is on the cutting edge. Look at the GUI? While they have have "copied" the idea from Zerox, they certainly made is useful and popular. And then Windows came along... the same is happening with the iPod.

Most harddrive based MP3 players from a year or two ago were bulky, heavy, and difficult to use while performing other tasks (like working out, running, etc). The iPod is small, easy to use, and sexy. But wait, now there are many other MP3 players coming to the market that are arguably just as easy to use and bulkless as the iPod, and much cheaper. See history repeating itself, anyone?

While I do not believe that Apple will ever establish anything close to market dominance in the PC world, they do a good job in their niche. I really doubt they are going out of business. The article does say that they made a profit, even though the profit is down. I will start worrying when they have gone several quarters in the red.

I'm still confused...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does explaining, and thereby ruining, a good joke make your post look idiotic, or am I supposed to rate this as Funny because I laughed so hard thinking that you believe that /.ers are all living under rocks and never heard that iPod batteries are replacable after all?
Or is making me confused part of the joke itself?

Now my head hurts.

--Yes, I reposted this. The parent deserved it.

Re:I'm still confused...

[dasmegabyte]

Alright, I concede.

Yes, something can be false and also funny. But you should still flag it as false.

Re:I'm still confused...

[splateagle]

nicely put: the point after all wasn't that the parent comment wasn't funny, but that (intentionally or not) it's quite patently false. arguably even an example of the self same FUD as the Money Magazine article itself.

(though personally I don't think the AC trolling of either of our comments really warranted a response)

;)

Re:I'm still confused...

[dasmegabyte]

I respond to trolls because it gives them a secret thrill. Who am I to deny that?

Re:I'm still confused...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the thrill. It wasn't a troll as much as it was a torque. A troll would have been designed to elicit more of a response.

And BTW I would be all in favor for a -1, False mod. I wouldn't have used it on the grand-grand-grand, errrrrr, the original post, but it needs to be there to prevent the +5, Informative on the patently false posts. -1, Overrated just isn't as much of a bitchslap as it needs to be.

Dell R&D Correction

[Punchinello]

Dell spends between 1% and 2% of revenues (or about $700 million annually) on R&D. This is a very modest amount compared to Sun and Apple. But to say they spend no money R&D is simply incorrect.

Re:Dell R&D Correction

[Punchinello]

It's interesting that a factual post that corrects a glaring error would get modded down as overrated on /.

You can't win for losing around here.

Re:Dell R&D Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell spent $455 million on research last year, according to their SEC filing.

Re:Dell R&D Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not really, a guy I used to have contact with a few years back worked on bugfixing BIOS's for their MB's, his wages where part of their "R&D budget", but R&D is, well traditionally at the least, meant to mean investment in future products, since Dell neither manufactures nor designs their products but rather specifies and handles in some cases final assembly, they are unlikely to need real R&D in the long run, they are more like a combination of a mom and pops computer assembly operation and a massive logistics company than what we have seen before in either consumer electronics or computer industries, both of wich rely heavily on R&D.

This means that apart from technical work the rest of their "R&D budget" is product specifications and logistics work.

Article Maybe Ignores Everything Else Apple Does

[sjanes71]

I say maybe because the link is to Money Magazine premium content? I could not read the article. What's with that? I could deal perhaps with a Salon permium link but not with this one.

The iPod alone isn't what will save Apple, Apple saves Apple with everything Apple does. (In Soviet Russia, Apple saves iPod!?) I know a lot of people who have started making the switch with laptops from Apple. I'd consider it myself but I don't have the luxury money for that yet.

I remember watching the MacWorld keynote when Jobs introduced the iMac and iPhoto (IIRC)-- he explained what they were trying to do with the "digital hub." Apple is not going to go away anytime soon-- they are seriously committed to creating the best home computers possible for the general public. It looks like they're calling it "iLife" and they are trying to create tools to simplify everything in life, unlike Microsoft which seems wholy committed to making each and every new release more complicated and harder to use. Apple seems to follow Pareto's rule and gets you 80% of everything you need well without making it complicated and this keeps the maczealots insanely happy and recruits new customers.

Free advice to Steve Jobs to help kick Microsoft's collective ass: create iPostage, an application that makes it impossibly easy to buy and print postage from the USPS and you'll create another compelling use for Mac OS X for business to switch. I know from everyone who has ever tried to go the postage-via-computer route has suffered with lost postage because of bad printings, confusing dialogs and just generally hard to use software.

Economy?

[doomicon]

I personally have seen my paycheck taking a dive, and dealt with 4 months unemployment. I don't think this is a case of Apple pushing irrelevant products, but more a case of people not buying as many "toys" as they did in say 1999-2000.

I think hardware/cpu sales falls in the same catagory. I would love to own a G4 and run OSX, but I opted to purchase a Dell400sc for $265 on ebay.

How does Apple compete with that?

di

Re:Economy?

[NaugaHunter]

First of all, since you didn't buy from Dell either you might as well ask 'How does Dell compete with that?'

Secondly, there are plenty of used Macs. While not any cheap G4s, there are dozens of G3's, either towers, iMacs or eMacs. And OSX runs fine on my iMac SE DV w/ G3@400 Mhz. Mind you, I'm not playing Halo on it. But if all you've got to spend is $265 you'd have to accept less than cutting edge.

Re:Economy?

[doomicon]

That's my point, for $265 I didn't except less. I got a P4 2.4 gig, with the memory, drive space, and everything I need. I haven't found a single Mac on ebay that compares for the same price.

Re:Economy?

[NaugaHunter]

Isn't that a point in favor of Apple, a higher resale value? Kinda like Toyota/Ford truck ads always blab about? Or you could say Apple's remain useful longer, so you'll only see older ones for sale cheap. Heck, some of the older older ones are more expensive for nostalgia value.

I guess I got stuck on why you think Apple would want to compete for your purchase in this case. Would Toyota care that you can buy a used Ford truck that you got from some guy? They're looking only at new truck buyers.

About the only possible 'compete' point that could vaguely be made is that by not having a cheap model for people to buy, they're losing sales to people that replace their cheap model with newer more expensive models and go with the same as what they had. Well, they tried that once with clones and all it did was suck sales from their high end. (It's more complicated than that, but that was the underlying effect)

FWIW, old Macs are also easier to cycle through families or put to other uses. I have an iMac G3 400Mhz I've 'replaced' with an Al. Powerbook, but I've been working at turning into a web server and a mail server, using standard Apache/Postfix and no licensing fees. After working with the mess at work that IIS and Exchange are I doubt anyone who gets the idea to do this on a Windows machine just for the heck of it would give up fairly quickly. Even if they tried to go with open source solutions, they'd still be on top of Windows and deal with any worms/whatever that come out.

(And yes, I'm making the broad assumption that a good deal of the 486-based PCs are from Windows users upgrading to play newer games, not from Linux users who could do what I said. They would also more than likely shove their old box somewhere as a fileserver or something.)

Oh this is silly

[LordPhantom]

For your consideration:

Yes Apple is the 'caddy' of the IT world in many respects right now.... Consider the cost of an apple G5 (MSRP approx (starts at $1799) - now consider the cost of you building your OWN 64 bit PC with similar specs and such (running linux).

I would hope you see a difference in price there... I certainly did when I built my system.

Admittedly you're getting benefits such as "customer service", QA, a 'sexy' machine, blah blah blah blah.

You're also getting _propriatary_ hardware (and for the most part more expensive). As a geek on a budget who dosn't mind getting his hands dirty (and a _huge_ OS X fan) I can tell you it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy apple computer hardware. Their OS, however..... :-)

The other quesion that this all raises is - what makes you think that this is ANY different than all the sysadmins who love linux/unix and have done so for years? There have been several reliable, stable window managers available that they could eaisly configure and use in the 'pointy-haired-boss"'s office.

The knee-jerk reacition to "Apple is dead" has (for just as long) been "Apple is expanding!"...I think the truth is somewhere close to "Apple is running a good business in a well-defined market niche and growing slowly" than to any of the wild predictions seen here.

Re:Oh this is silly

[zhenlin]

Hm. Apple PowerMac G5:

* HyperTransport
* PCI-X / AGP
* DDR SDRAM
* S-ATA
* Gigabit Ethernet
* IEEE 1394b a.k.a. Firewire 800
* USB 2.0

So, tell me, which of these, which will be the only interfaces that you can sanely use, is proprietary?

In the PC world, anything other than an Opteron machine can compare in specs.

Re:Oh this is silly

[ivan256]

You're also getting _propriatary_ hardware

Excluding the motherboard (and even this is debateable. Go try and get a programming manual for your VIA chip), what exactly is proprietary about the Mac that isn't about your Athlon 64? I look inside mine and see a standard AGP video card, PCI SCSI adapter, IDE hard drive and DVD drive, everyday ordinary USB ports, standard audio jacks, regular ordinary ethernet, the same memory that PCs use... I look up on my shelf and I see programming manuals for all the parts inside the machine I care about. The instruction sets of the processors are different, but everything else isn't any less standard than your machine.

Someday you'll grow up, get a job, and have way less free time to "get your hands" dirty. Your time budget will shrink and your financial budget will grow. Then perhaps you'll appreciate that you can spend a few hundred extra dollars to get a machine like a mac.

Re:Oh this is silly

[mbbac]

You're also getting _propriatary_ hardware (and for the most part more expensive).

You also get a spellchecker built into the OS that'll spellcheck your posts on Slashdot.

Re:Oh this is silly

[LordPhantom]

(FYI - I already _have_ a job as a sysadmin...) Firstly - go see how many motherboard options you have when building your OWN G4 from parts.... hmm... darn. I will concede that the term "propriatry" wasn't appropriate, but rather I was referring to the lack of options in purchasing core system parts (processor, memory, etc). And although you can argue that this is part of why the Windows OS is a touch unstable, it also keeps the price of components for the PC down. Secondly - I see no answers to the question - what makes this different?

Re:Oh this is silly

[MattHaffner]

You're also getting _propriatary_ hardware (and for the most part more expensive). As a geek on a budget who dosn't mind getting his hands dirty (and a _huge_ OS X fan) I can tell you it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy apple computer hardware. Their OS, however..... :-)

What are you talking about? So maybe you have to start with their box, but not much of that is Apple proprietary. Even my laptop has ATI, IBM, and Matshita for it's major components. I could swap those around myself if I fancied. And heck, my original B&W G3 at home has been upgraded many times with non-Apple hardware. Cheap crap too.

So, yeah, I agree you have to play their game a little and buy their box, but saying it's "proprietary," at least from the Apple trademark, is limited to the main board. Go buy a used, year old box and rip the guts out and reconfigure.

Sorry if you feel it's too strangling to play, but I guess Apple feels they like the revenue to make good software. Years ago, I'd agree it wasn't working. Now, I think it's kicking major booty. I'm happy, even if I can't tweak as much as I used to. I'm getting much more done!

Re:Oh this is silly

[metamatic]

Proprietary hardware? Don't be stupid. The G5 takes normal RAM, normal PCI cards, normal hard drives. It has regular USB and Firewire. It even has a standard DVI output for a plain old generic monitor. You can buy a G5 and never have to buy another piece of Apple hardware to upgrade it with, ever again.

Re:Oh this is silly

[k_head]

I did the price comparison. The thing is I wanted a quiet PC and the G5 is nearly silent. By the time I added all the extras to make a quiet PC the price was comparable to the apple so I bought a G5. It's nice :)

Re:Oh this is silly

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I do find it interesting that people use the cost of assembling their own computer against the cost of a pre-assembled computer, and not consider the value of the time and experience they put into assembling that computer, and that of loading the OS, drivers and software onto it.

That comparison works great for geeks, but the bigger issue is that few people really do assemble their own computers, so they can't just add up the cost of the parts and say they are getting ripped.

Another issue is that the PC equivalent parts are IMO vastly substandard in some places, particularly on the case and cooling, getting quality parts narrows the gap. Adding bluetooth, PCI-X and firewire narrows it even more.

One thing I do find nice is that it only takes an extra $500 to add a second processor, doing that with an Opteron or Xeon based system costs that much extra just for a DP motherboard, ignoring the CPU, the extra power requirements meaning better cooling and a larger case.

Re:Oh this is silly

[ivan256]

I was referring to the lack of options in purchasing core system parts (processor, memory, etc)

Ok, I gave you the motherboard. Sure, you only have one choice, and you have many with your Athlon 64 (well, perhaps only two if you're counting chipsets...), but what's this about processors and memory? Macs and PCs use the same memory. I don't see how there's a lack of options there. Also, while intel has announced an x86-64 compatable processor, it doesn't exist yet, and when it does, it won't be compatable with your Athlon 64 in any way but in the instruction set. So you, as well as all the G5 owners out there, only have one choice for your processor right now. That's the *same number of options*. It also ignores the fact that with the previous generations of PPC chips, there were two manufacturers of compatable chips that you could use as plugin replacements in your system.

it also keeps the price of components for the PC down.

So, excluding the motherboard, if all the components are the same as the ones used in PCs, how do you figure mac parts are more expensive?

Oh, and if you want to pick nits:

Firstly - go see how many motherboard options you have when building your OWN G4 from parts.

If you only care about it being a G4, and not a Mac (which by definition is only made by Apple. It's their trademark). There are *at least* seven manufacturers of ATX sized motherboards that you can plug G3 and/or G4 processors into. I have 3 of them. They exist. Last I checked there were only five socket 940 boards available out there. None of them are cheap either...

Re:Oh this is silly

[aristotle-dude]

You are a sysadmin and you waste your precious time off building machines? Don't you have a life? You really are a geek.

I'm a win32 developer and I my free time is very valuable to me. That is why I have a mac at home. I think of my mac as an appliance. It just works.

Re:Oh this is silly

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Open Firmware.

Re:Oh this is silly

[dustmite]

Don't you have a life? You really are a geek.

Uh, yeah, spoken by someone reading and posting to /. close to Friday evening.

Re:Oh this is silly

[zhenlin]

Hm. Now that I look at that, my last commment doesn't make sense.

"In the PC world, anything other than an Opteron machine can't compare"

Re:Oh this is silly

[ocelotbob]

The difference is that once you do find a good quality case, you can usually make it last for several upgrade cycles. Apple makes you buy a new garish case every time you want to upgrade the rest of the system. Plus, tell me where I can find an apple case with room for even 2 CD drives?

For nongeeks, it's pretty easy. They find a geek friend and they say, build me a computer, I'll pay ya a bit and buy you beer.

Though realy, the installing the OS is a nonissue. You know how I install an OS? I throw on a good movie, or read a book or something and occasionally glance over at the computer and provide whatever input it needs. Unless you're in an absolute hurry to build a system, nothing's going to be hurt if your computer has to wait. Plus, add to the fact that I dislike pretty much the entire gamut of the iApps as being oversimplified, waered down versions of real programs, software installation for both systems takes about the same amount of time. Add in the time spent looking for applications needed to make an OS X install looking halfway decent, and you're winding up spending the same amount of time getting either platform the way you want it.

Re:Oh this is silly

[mduell]

Sure its got an AGP slot, but can you drop any AGP card into it? Nope, you need a special version that costs 50+% more (comparing prices for the ATi 9800Pro). Same for many sound cards (back from the G4 era, not sure if its true anymore, you couldnt just put a SB Live! in, you had to get the special, more expensive mac version). How about powersupplies? When the PSU in your mac goes out and you just swap it for a generic 550W PSU? Nope, you need a special one (that costs more).

Re:too expensive

[tftp]

That's why the market tolerates (and welcomes) a variety of products. You can buy an expensive but professionally made device, or you can buy a cheap imitation; all depends on what your priorities are.

If you open a cheap gadget, chances are it is made out of obsolete, junk parts, soldered by a $1/day worker in a sweatshop in China. The board will be made out of pressed paper, the tracks will be barely hanging on, the larger components will be glued to whatever happens to be around by a generous amount of wax, and a lot of masking tape will hold everything together. That's how a low-cost device is made. Many pocket radios are like that.

On the other end of the spectrum you will see a nice multi-layer fiberglass PCB, with a good solder mask, with surface mounted 0603's, maybe some BGAs, all nicely assembled and packaged. That is quality, and quality has its cost. You decide.

Re:too expensive

[RicoX9]

On nice laptops, there's not much of a gap from a vendor with a good product.

Desktops are another matter entirely. There is a minimum 200% price premium for a comparable performance desktop box. The guts aren't all that different. Most of the components are standard, and Apple charges an arm and a leg for them. I've been shopping. I'd love to have one.

At the end of the day, I just can't justify the price premium. Apple can still be the more expensive brand, that doesn't bother me. It's the price gouging that bothers me. Want to get RAM from Apple when you buy a system? You're going to pay 2-3 times what it's worth. Same for hard disks. Same for the "super" drive (which feature-wise, isn't really super anymore).

And, no, I'm not going to Ebay anything. Ebay is the biggest waste of life nowadays. Too much fraud, theft, and general dishonesty.

does the poster work at comp USA or something

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, whoever submitted this article needs to be informed that it's not a CPU. It's a Computer, a system, or even a box.....but NOT a CPU. A CPU is only one portion of the complete picture. GOD one of my biggest pet peeves is proper terminology. You don't call a car an engine do you? Then why do people think calling a computer a CPU is proper.

That's about like calling an ISP telling them "I can't get on the internet 'cause my modem's not working" Then the tech finds out the computer won't even boot.

hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds great! Does she have a sister?

Hot G5s

[LemonYellow]

Remember that the 970FX (new G5) draws less power than the G4. Once IBM are knocking them out in sufficient numbers for Apple to ship the Xserve G5 (which uses the 970FX) at last I don't see why it couldn't be shoe-horned into an iMac; Bye bye cooling problems.

Re:Hot G5s

[MKalus]

Let's hope so. But I guess we'll first see it in the Powerbook.

And I am not so sure about the heat issue, as I had a look the other day into the G5 and the one thing I noticed was the huge cooling module on top of the CPU module, not to forget that they even had air flow channels set up to make sure the air gets circulated.

Re:Hot G5s

[LemonYellow]

You looked inside an (as yet unreleased) XServe G5? The G5 Power Macs use the 130nm-process G5 which generates lots of heat. The new G5 (970FX) is a 90nm part and generates a whole lot less. That's not to say that IBM isn't fibbing about the new part being lower-power, but until we've seen the inside of the new XServes we won't know. The current G5 desktop tells us nothing.

I suppose that, given that the Powerbook is in need of a re-vamp, that might get the G5 first. Cooling issues will be easier to nail for the iMac though, I guess.

Re:Hot G5s

[MKalus]

True, the iMac would be easier to cool, but it is also "consumer grade", I don't think they want to undermine the high end Notebook market (where the profit margine is probably a lot higher) by cramming the G5 into the iMac just yet.

How much time between the PowerMac G4 and the iMac G4? Two or three years?

Apple doesn't need "saving"

[kitzilla]

I thought it was BSD that's dying. It's hard to keep track.

Apple needs to find a silver bullet to increase its CPU share, since there's clearly a relationship between hardware and software sales. But the company certainly isn't in trouble.

Apple is one of the world's strongest brands, and the company is awash in cash. The iPod represents Apple's first real experiment with brand extension. It worked -- there will be more to come.

If I were Steve Jobs, I'd find a way to sell cheap boxes loaded with OS X. They would essentially be OS delivery systems: a way to get more OS X in the field and make developers feel good about supporting the platform. These boxes would replace the iMac, but would be sold without monitors. Most consumers already have one, and a hundred bucks is worth shaving off the price point.

I'd sell the damn things at Wal-Mart, starting in markets without Apple Stores. The kind of folks who go to an Apple boutique aren't this product's target, anyway.

Nobody beats Apple on industrial design. I am confident the clever boys and girls in Cupertino can make an inexpensive box that will look unlike anything on the retail shelf. Apple needs to leverage its coolness.

And if they really want to be slick, a new low-end box should contain a built-in docking cradle for an iPod. maybe the whole project gets positioned as a media center that doubles as a PC.

Re:Apple doesn't need "saving"

[PMAvers]

Indeed, Apple products being sold at Wal-Mart would be a great idea.

I mean, they've already got a machine that's almost in the price range as those computers: the eMac. If they were able to knock the price down to around $600-800, it'd be great. You should see what they're going up against. Our store gets at least two to three of the Gateway/HP/Whatever we sell as returns every day. I always see 'em in the Claims department when I pass by there. If the word gets out that they're selling a machine that doesn't... well, suck, that could be a big draw. ...But, we're talking about Wal-Mart here. The type of customers are the people who'd shove old ladies down to save a buck.

The other problem is that they'd have to somehow convince Wal-Mart to carry the *software* as well. People aren't going to buy the machines if they can't get the software. Think back to the target audience for a moment. There's people who are paranoid about buying things online, or don't want to deal with the "hassle" of ordering online, etc. At the moment, the only two pieces of software that I can think of that are Mac-Compatible are Warcraft 3 (and expansion), and Shadowbane. (It burns!) If they were to do this, they'd have to either throw their weight around a bit so that there are more hybrid CD's, or set up a whole separate section with the Mac-devoted software in it.

Re:Apple doesn't need "saving"

[kitzilla]

You're right about software. If Wal-Mart and Apple were to team up, I'd assume a software deal would necessarily be involved. They'd need iLife, Roxio Toast, games, and some sort of office suite, at least.

Which raises another question: which office suite? I use my Mac for business, so MS Office was worth the investment (to me). I imagine a low-end Mac for home and entertainment use, building on Apple's current strength. Doubt most of these users need Microsoft's massively expensive and proprietary software. At the same time, AppleWorks is so dated I can't recommend it, and Open Office is sooo not ready for average consumers on OS X.

Ideas, anyone?

At least the Rolling Stones...

[Kjella]

I dunno about that. Some groups (IBM, The Rolling Stones, etc)have so much money and power they'll probably be around forever. Even if the universe was going to end, IBM's R&D would probably to develop a method to transport itself to an alternate dimension.

At least the Rolling Stones but fortunately, the Afterlife doesn't seem too keen on issuing passports. Now, IBMs R&D probably invented the time bubble that the Restaurant at the End of the Universe in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is in. Hmm, come to think of it, maybe they've already invented it, that'd explain a lot...

Kjella

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[TXG1112]

I remember an old full page PSA in some magazine:

The truly evil thing about heroin is it doesn't always kill you. Sometimes it just turns you into Keith Richards.

My own theory is that he died in 1969 and nobody told him yet. Either that or he's a vampire.

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[javaxman]

clearly, Keith is a vampire. Or possibly a Voodun zombie. At the very least, he's signed a pact with the devil.

Either way, he outlived Jerry Garcia, and it's truly remarkable either one made it past the year 2000...

That was really a PSA?!? You're joking about that part, right??

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[TXG1112]

I don't know if it was a real PSA or just a joke, but I'll tell you this, after reading it I never wanted to even think about Heroin (Never mind use it). So I guess it worked.

IIRC it was in Rolling Stone or Playboy, so it could very well have been a real PSA.

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[grassy_knoll]

Not a vampire.

Embalmed.

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[Anonymous Coward]

Makes sense...

Re:At least the Rolling Stones...

[Ohreally_factor]

Not embalmed

Pickled

(BTW, the PSA appeared in Hustler Magazine)

Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[goombah99]

The timing of this article I think is simply intended to make the author look prescient. Apple's stock price just surged way ahead creating a ludicrous price-to-earning ratio (about 70). Part of this was the Sony-buy-out rumor, and the other was a wave of good i-pod press and g5 super computer press.

Any idiot can tell you the stock price will come down a bit since the p/E is not supported by the present facts known. On the other hand if ipod sales continue to boom and people start flipping their old mac for new G5s (by the way the imac g4 inventory is being cleared out for the introduction of some yet to be announce product). Then their earnings will go up and the stock price should rise. This is why analysts are rating apple and hold and not a sell. the price is high and will fluctuate down but may zoom up on the next earning statement.

I think this author,probably in the pay of microsoft, is planting a story anticipating the near term price fall of apple stock to make himeslef look good and maybe stimie apples encroachment on windowns in the enterprise world.

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[deacent]

The timing of this article I think is simply intended to make the author look prescient.

That hadn't occurred to me, but I think you're right. I think Apple's 2nd quarter call is 4/14. For those who have watched Apple's stock over the years, you'll recall that Q2 has always been their weak one.

Apple's stock price just surged way ahead creating a ludicrous price-to-earning ratio (about 70). Part of this was the Sony-buy-out rumor, and the other was a wave of good i-pod press and g5 super computer press.

Is that the Apple-buyout-rumor-du-jour? You'd think people have heard of the boy who cries wolf by now. There is a good reason to think there are new G5s on the way, though. Apple has been trending towards doing memory promotions right before they release a new desktop. Check the Apple Store for their latest. Mind you, that's not based on anything other than an informal observation.

I think this author,probably in the pay of microsoft, is planting a story anticipating the near term price fall of apple stock to make himeslef look good and maybe stimie apples encroachment on windowns in the enterprise world.

I doubt they're in MS's pay. Only folks into tech really seem to get religous about platform. It's just another story to generate revenue for the magazine.

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

I was all set to mod you up when I got to the line

I think this author,probably in the pay of microsoft, is planting a story anticipating the near term price fall of apple stock to make himeslef look good and maybe stimie apples encroachment on windowns in the enterprise world.

There's no evidence whatsoever behind your statement that MS is behind this. It detracts terribly from what was otherwise a very incisive argument. In good conscience I can't mod you up with a blanket "insightful" without giving credence to that choice bit of looniness. I'd feel like I was cheering along with a bit too much unbridled virulence.

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[devonbowen]

Any idiot can tell you the stock price will come down a bit since the p/E is not supported by the present facts known.

Although that idiot should probably short the stock first. 8-)

Devon

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[ratsnapple tea]

Will you be my friend?

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[cft_128]

I think this author,probably in the pay of microsoft, is planting a story anticipating the near term price fall of apple stock to make himeslef look good and maybe stimie apples encroachment on windowns in the enterprise world.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity, or something like that.

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm
www.sec.gov
10-K was filled on 2003-12-19
Net Income is 69 Million
www.bigcharts.com
shares are at 9.6 Billion
9.6 / 0.069 = 139
I wish I could get 139 times over my dollar =P
Now to get that to within the average of 30.00 lets say.
They need to increase net income to 320 million over the current 69 million (5 times).
So umm its extended unless they do something magical =)

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

I was all set to mod you up when I got to the line

I suppose you dont realize you cant post and mod the same thread even as an A/C?

Re:Apple's stock price and earnings ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you dont realize you cant post and mod the same thread even as an A/C?

Of course I do. I simply chose not to mention that I felt so strongly regarding the poster's ability to squander the academic goodwill he garnered with the looniness of his closing argument, that I was willing to give up my ability to moderate this thread.

My post wasn't about me. It didn't warrant a full discussion of my moderator points. And in case you're wondering, I posted AC because I feel any discussion of moderation, points, and the well-constructed argument should take place outside the bounds of Karma as it is inherently off-topic. However, that does not mean that these issues necessarily warrant no discussion in Slashdot's public space. The 0 score provides the perfect opening for sub-context and a discussion of form, logic, and moderation.

What is market share?

[phelix_da_kat]

The question is: what do people mean when they say Apple is losing market share.

If we are talking boxes/laptops, then ultimately this is a flawed calculation. I mean I can see more computer around and many of them are PC boxes so in a way I can "see" a lower proportion of Macs around. But I think we should be counting number of actual live users.

For example, PCs have a short life span. Hence if you count sales figure, the ration of PC to Mac will always be increasing!! Or for example, the fact that "old" PCs are usually used as scrap and cannibalised to say make a cheap fire wall.. etc

without apple microsoft would be doomed

[dvhh]

if Apple goes down microsoft will be down for desktop software monopoly :), that's why they would keep apple alive, by injecting million of dollars into it. it's true that Ipod does not help apple in financing area, but in success it is a great story. what helps apple: high margin product ( mostly workstation computer like g4 or g5, and parts for them), software like final cut and hopefully garage band. But I think that the fight with microsoft has been ridiculous, since I think that apple is in the same grade as SGI or Sun.

Full Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

A non-moose coward I must be to publish this copyrighted material. Mirror it before it disappears:

Why iPod Can't Save Apple
March 17, 2004: 4:28 PM EST
By Stephen Gandel, MONEY Magazine

NEW YORK (MONEY Magazine) - Manhattan, 5:55 p.m. on Feb. 20, and in five minutes Apple will begin selling the highly anticipated miniaturized version of its hugely popular iPod.

Outside its SoHo store there is an anxious queue of trend-setters and gadget-philes that stretches for more than a big city block. Hundreds of people have been waiting as long as three hours in the cold to get their hands on a Mini. In SoHo, with its art galleries and designer boutiques, this Friday night the retail outpost for the PC maker is the place to be.

For Apple CEO Steve Jobs, these are triumphant times. The iPod is more than the most successful digital music player ever: It's a cultural phenomenon -- on a par with Sony's Walkman -- radically altering the way we buy and store music.

Since returning seven years ago to the helm of the company he helped found in the 1970s, Jobs has said that innovation would lead Apple out of its funk. The iPod is the latest hit product to come from that decree, and it's bigger than Apple loyalists and shareholders could have hoped for.

Even before the Mini shipped, customers ordered 100,000 at $249 a pop. Apple, in all, should sell nearly one billion dollars' worth of iPods this year.

Jumping on the bandwagon

This apparent success has lured many investors to jump on the Apple bandwagon. Its shares have risen 51 percent in the past year to a recent $23.

If you love the company's products -- and what's not to love about their ease of use and elegant design? -- you might be tempted to buy Apple's shares.

But behind the hype and buzz surrounding the iPod and Jobs, there are problems stewing at Apple. Its core computer business, which still accounts for 70 percent of the company's sales, is withering. Apple sold just over 3 million computers in its last fiscal year, which ended in September -- 900,000 less than it sold in fiscal 1996, the year before Jobs returned.

Meanwhile, Apple's share of the worldwide personal-computer market has shrunk to 2 percent from 3.2 percent five years ago. What's more, despite their soaring sales, iPods are depressing profitability because of their lower profit margin.

Disney's loss, Pixar's gain?

Apple's profit problems are absent at Steve Jobs' other company, animation studio Pixar (PIXR). The maker of "Finding Nemo" netted an astounding $.48 on each dollar of sales. That's better than all but one (Ambac Financial) of the firms in the S&P's 500-stock index. In February, Pixar broke its production deal with Disney, assuring it a larger portion of its future films' profits. Of course, Pixar will assume more of the risk. At $66, its shares don't reflect this added burden.

The result: While Apple's sales of $6.2 billion last fiscal year were nearly unchanged from 1999, profits plummeted 90 percent to $69 million, from $601 million four years ago. It's unclear what Jobs can do or plans to do to turn around Apple's fortunes -- he refused to talk to MONEY about its future.

Of course, as the line outside Apple's 12,000-square-foot SoHo store grows, none of the company's problems seem to matter.

Kevin Lewis, who has been waiting for three hours, declares, "The iPod Mini is the newest greatest thing." Scott Dercanin hopes that getting an iPod Mini for his wife will make up for missing Valentine's Day. Felix Petersen is risking missing his flight back to Berlin so he can own the first iPod Mini in Germany.

What's clear from seeing all these people spend their Friday night waiting on line to buy an iPod is that Jobs has made Apple au courant again.

The question is whether the trade-off between buzz and the bottom line is worth it. In other words, should Apple's shareholders be any happier with Jobs' higher-profile, lower-profit Ap

iPoker, baby

[hackshack]

Might want to try iPoker. As one person on macupdate put it, "the authors definitely had fun making it."

Security and the Intel Option

[Darth Cider]

No one has mentioned Apple's record on server security, near perfect, thanks to BSD. In this context, that's a bankable feature and will forestall Apple's demise indefinitely. Seems to me they aren't stressing this enough and could make quick inroads into worm-weary IT.

Nor has anyone mentioned the last-ditch option available at any time--moving OSX to x86 architecture.

Apple's coolness isn't vapidly based on marketing image, but on great technology. The G5 from IBM is indicative of improved stability in its roadmap into CPU improvements, always iffy with Motorola.

4% Market share is pritty good.

[jellomizer]

Everyone goes oh Apple has a 4% market share thats horrible. But that is comparing against Microsoft with its 92% share. As far as economies goes Microsoft is a anomonoly Heck if I got 4% market share in anything Ill be a really happy person. Will Apple Trounce Microsoft and become the dominate platform, probably not If it does become a dominate platform it will probably will have no more then 10% market share. But even at 1% market share that is enough to keep a company running for a while.

Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[mcwop]

2.5 million copies of OS X at $129, that can run on Intel boxes is $322,500,000 in revenues. However unlike hardware, I expect the net profit margin for this type of software sale to be 50-60% or higher. At a 55% net profit margin on $322 million is 177,000,000 in profits. Apple should be able to exceed that sales figure in the huge Intel market.

Now add to this sales of unbundled software like iLife that can run on Mac OS X Intel.

This is Apple's wildcard.

Yes, Apple is a hradware company, but they are software too, and could change models.

Re:Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[kilfarsnar]

Yes, Apple is a hardware company. They are a software company only insofar as it supports their hardware sales. Think about it. How much software does Apple sell as opposed to just giving it away? Even iLife, the new software suite, is only $50! Yes, the OS is $129, but it has no CD key!! Obviously, piracy is not at the top of Apple's worry list. Compare this with M$, which is a software company.

This is why Steve Jobs killed the clones. An important part of Apple's philosophy is that one company makes the whole widget. There are benefits to having the same company make the hardware and software, i.e. tight integration and superior performance. But this aside, hardware sales are Apple's bread and butter. There will never be an x86 version of the Mac OS. Darwin, maybe. But full blown Mac OS, with Aqua and all that? Never. If Mac OS were available for x86, it would be a cute thing to do with your PC that only about 5 people would care about. X86 is poular because Windows is popular, not the other way around.

And speaking to the original article, people who supposedly know have been forecasting Apple's demise since 1988. So I'll believe it when I see it.

Re:Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[phillymjs]

No.

Apple's a hardware and software company. The tight integration between their hardware and their software is one of the Mac's prime selling points.

They could never hope to achieve that level of integration on garden-variety commodity PC hardware, even if they cose to support only a subset of what's available (a la NeXTStep for Intel). How do I know they can't pull it off? Because Microsoft has thrown untold billions of dollars over the last 20 years at the problem, and they haven't been successful.

Also, Apple uses the high margins from their hardware sales to subsidize their R&D. OS X for Intel would have to cost quite a bit more than the $129 Mac users pay for retail copies of OS X. Otherwise, Apple would go into a death spiral (a real one, not the bullshit ones all the tech pundits write about).

~Philly

Re:Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[mcwop]

If Mac OS were available for x86, it would be a cute thing to do with your PC that only about 5 people would care about. X86 is popular because Windows is popular, not the other way around.

We will just have to disagree there. Companies such as HP or Dell could load it and sell it. Aside from OS X, Apple could make iLife (already do for one component - iTunes) for Windows sell it to PC vendors who in turn bundle it with windows. Apple is not without options to try, if hardware fails to keep them solvent. No guarantee of success, but they have options.

There will never be an x86 version of the Mac OS. Darwin, maybe. But full blown Mac OS, with Aqua and all that? Never.

Never say never. Apple could have it done already (and it is technologically possible to do), and locked away in a vault. Remember, NeXTSTEP ran on intel.

Perspective here

Re:Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[metamatic]

If there were 2.5 million PC users willing to switch OS, we'd see 2.5 million more Linux users than we do right now, and Be would still be in business.

Re:Apple's WildCard - Selling OS X/Intel

[easter1916]

Obviously, piracy is not at the top of Apple's worry list.

Maybe that
s because it only runs on Apple hardware, and those who own Apple hardware that will run OS X already have a copy.

Apple, Faiiiling??

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, this is a shock to the tech world.. alert the presses!!

Next you'll try to tell me that Linux still isn't making inroads to the desktop!!

You're much more misleading...

[danaris]

That ThinkSecret article has nothing to do with general sales figures: it is purely an issue with the profitability of the Apple retail stores. Basically, from what I read, the independent Apple resellers have gotten their hands on some invoices from the Apple retail stores that give prices the Apple stores pay for the merchandise and AppleCare, and it's quite a bit lower than what they pay. Apple says it's more complicated than that, and I'm nothing like an economic expert, so I'll leave it to more qualified people than myself to pass judgement.

Essentially, it looks like Apple's been giving their own stores fat discounts, the Apple resellers want to sue, Apple says they've done nothing wrong, and the truth is probably somewhere in between.

Has nothing to do with their computer sales.

Dan Aris

There's only one reason for this article

[Anonymous Cowabunga]

...and that's to drive web hits--and advertising revenue. Dvorak, Enderle and others do this, deliberately, all the time (mostly when they can't think of anything else to write). They know that a "Mac Sucks", "Mac is Dead (really this time" article is sure to drive up readership, even if it's to pissed off Mac fans. There can be little to no content behind the substance. They don't care, all the marketing people see are numbers attached to the article. My advice: don't read this trash.

Waiting for 3 GHz x 2 G5

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve Jobs kinda shot the G5 in the foot,
to a lot of people...

I'm Staying with my current machine until the 3 GHz G5s come out... and I know a lot of G3 and G4 mac people are doing exactly the same - waiting for the 3 GHz machines...

If I'm gonna part with thousands of dollars,
I want some Real bang for the buck...

Skipping up to 4 GHz, upping the bus and RAM speed, and including the latest and greatest card from ATI standard - that would be nice ...

You fail it

[TheOnlyCoolTim]

Cracking the case and tearing apart glued components is not easy.

Easy is opening the door on my Nomad, sliding out the old battery, and sliding the new one in.

No, it's not a great hardship to change the iPod battery, but it's stupid. If Apple made a light fixture they'd probably glue the bulb in place.

Tim

Look at the facts

[BlackStar]

There's a long dated article (feb 2003) that examines a few interesting aspects of market share in general, and the computer industry as a whole.

Apple Liks

Interesting that Apple is the only ones leading the way into new markets in a convincing way with the iPod.

As more people play with Cocoa, there's a good chance developers will like it enough to write software for it. It's a very solid environment. That plus all the Unix goodness under it with Fink and Darwinports, and even in this Windows-world, I'm thinking.... there a few million potential customers on Mac, and they are loyal and spend money for quality. If I get $10 of of every 10th customer....

Same Here

[subtillus]

I was converted some time around christmas, my friends check out my ibook all the time in class and now they all want one. I think next year's class here (McGill) is going to have at least 5 of them. I've also shown the light to my girlfriend and my mom.

I think showing expose alone got a few converts.

Re:Rolling Stones??

[theLOUDroom]

Give me a break... The Rolling Stones will die when Keith Richards and Mick Jagger are both dead.

Except that both those guys have enough money to fund the development of a replacement for any failing organ in their body, or possibly totally artificial bodies, thus living forever :)

Overseas jobs shipped to alternate dimention!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you've done it,

You've given the CEOs and CFO's a new way to take jobs away from India !

Well...

[Kjella]

..it depends on whether or not the iPod/iTunes for Windows was in part done to give people a "taster" of Mac quality and ease-of-use. If Apple was planning to drive Mac sales that way, it's valid to discuss if it was successful or not.

That doesn't mean Apple should have made it Mac only, it simply means that sometimes the market does what marketing thinks it will. That is, if Apple was thinking that way in the first place, I haven't seen any official info to indicate that.

Kjella

Re:Well...

[Rob Parkhill]

I sure hope that Apple wasn't thinking that iTunes was a good sample of the ease of use of the Mac platform, because it's a pretty poorly designed piece of software. Slow, lacking critical features, and doesn't follow any sort of Windows UI guidelines (and yes, this IS important if it is running on Windows.)

On the other hand, the iPod is a great little bit of design and technology. I wish it did more, but it's pretty much the best player on the market right now.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

"If Apple was planning to drive Mac sales that way, it's valid to discuss if it was successful or not."

This is a war, not a battle..

Or put another way, they arn't thinking that someone buying an iPod will buy a G5 next week. (anylists were thinking that and were wrong) What Apple higher ups are hoping for is that some iPod buyers (that arn't already Mac users) will make their next PC purchase a Mac. I know people that go 5-6 years between PC purchases, most average 2-3 years. It will not happen overnight.

Again, this isn't part of a short term startagy, it's long term. Many are looking at qtrly sales figures one or two qtrs into this and acting like Chicken Little.. shrug.. Long term, think long term.

My $0.02.

Have a nice day!

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if it was to give a taste of quality to us poor PC jerks, my two iPods which both had batteries that gave out in 30 days didn't help their case.

That, along with listening to my friends constant woes with his TiBook and the Apple Service Center, convinced me not to spend money on them again.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Doh -

Sorry to hear that you and your friend had that kind of trouble...

(Some may accuse you of being a troll, but i will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to tell you better tales as a devils advocate...)

I have an orig 5GB iPod. I bought it as an open box return.. paid $50 less than the edu price at the time.. a great buy.. So far, it takes a lickin and keep on tickin...

I have a PowerBook G4/550. Except for the bad paint .. (actully know people in the powder coating industry that say it looks like the metal wasn't properly pretreated) it's been my fav computer ever. I've added ram.. upgraded the HD twice, and also added a DVD-R.

I've had problems in the past. My PB G3/300 had hinge problems.. But they were replaced under warrenty, no problem. The downtime sucked (2 weeks w/o a laptop), but the service was otherwise good..

My dad at one point made the mistake of getting the PowerBook 5300ce (the most expensive PB ever). Was also one of the most problematic PBs ever. His had 3 replacement logic boards, 2 LCD replaced, and had the plastics replaced 4 times! But - it was all covered by the extended warrenty.. Downtime each time was minimal (Apple allowed these repairs to be done at the shop he bought it from). He has since upgraded to a newer PB that has been problem free.

Shrug. YMMV... Sometimes, when dealing with Apple customer service, you have to be firm. It also seems to help if you buy your products as a student or teacher... In all my dad and I have always had better service from Apple than my mom had w/ IBM/M$ before we got her a Mac. (She has a rev B Bondi Blue iMac.. I've upgraded the ram and HD for her also.)

Have a nice day!

things Apple need to do for me to buy from them

[xutopia]

1. lower their price to compete with Dell, HP, etc... 2. have higher resolutions on their laptops

Of course if they just released their OS to x86 I'd wouldn't mind paying 200$ to use it. Unfortunatly this won't happen.

Some people do not know how to quantify quality...

[innerweb]

When you look at Apple vs anything, it is Apple vs Windows. The hardware is important as well, but that is what the end user really sees. Since Apple has gone to the BSD kernel and snazzed up the interface for the joe user, I have talked to plenty of sysadmins and pointy haired bosses who are making or looking at making a test run with an Apple in the office. The primary reason is not the speed of the machine or the hardware, but the OS. I even know of ISPs quietly switching over to Apple's OS. My understanding is the up time is as good as line, the support is better and the systems out perform. That seems contrary to the specs I have read online, but that is what I have been hearing from most of the people I have talked to using the system.

I have not used a Mac in years. I wound up working in the financial programming world using PCs and Unix boxes. Now, the same people who were telling us to use Windows (pointy haired bosses) are starting to switch to Macs. I do not know if this is a trend that will have momentum, but I do know that the way several have talked/bragged about them, it is like listening to them talk about the Porsche or BMW they have also.

So, for what it is worth, I think the market for Apple is growing stronger. I do not think it is growing stronger in the area this analyst understands. I am not going to knock the author for not having a complete market view. Very few people do, and most of the smart analysts will tell you they themselves do not have a complete market view.

If I saw the high end car lines going out of business, I might worry about Apple, but I do not. What I think we are more likely to see is Apple at some point being gobbled up by bigger fish as has happened with most high end auto lines, and I am not even sure that might happen. After all, they are making money, have no debt outside of stock and are known for high quality and innovation and now are the premier desktop for *nix. Not a bad package to add to any corporate holding.

InnerWeb

oh no! poor Apple!

[seven of five]

Apple losing money! iTunes = flop! iPod = loser! Apple pays off all debt! poor Apple! stupid Apple! people wait in lines for 6 hours for SF Apple Store opening! Stupid People! (sit in closet, close door, repeat above until it becomes true)

NO WAY

[subtillus]

Some of us here (students) are poor. The eMac is more or less all we can afford to buy. Do NOT turn it into something unaffordable!

upgradage? why the emac, it's got ilife and it runs office/mail/addressbook and ical. What exactly do we need it to be doing faster?

They already decided

[System.out.println()]

Apple has decided that the 'exclusive club' route, as you call it, is best for them. As another poster noted, even if they DO lower their prices (and profit margins), people will still see "Windows has games, I'll take the Dell." Apple can't beat Windows at its game, which seems to be "ship a barely passable OS at a minimum price". Apple's game is "ship a sweet OS and raise the prices to make up for the R&D." (and then some)
I saw this quote a while ago: "I don't think BMW is complaining about their 2% marketshare. Neither is Apple."

Yes, I think they would.

[davidmb]

Because the iPod is a lower margin device, they have to sell a lot of them to make any money. One way for them to make money would be if iPod sales increased Mac sales, but that's not happening to any great extent. Which is a problem.

Re:Yes, I think they would.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the iPod is a lower margin device, they have to sell a lot of them to make any money.

Yeah. Too bad they haven't sold a lot of them. Oh, wait. They have. Never mind.

iPod not a low profit margin device

[wondafucka]

The iPod is not a low profit margin device. The actual singular unit itself is very trim on the profit. All the accessories gain them a lot of profit. Dock? Carrying case? Earbuds (in-ear)? Remote Control? Third party products: Recorder? Radio Pickup? FM Transmitter? I wouldn't worry about Apple.

Mac did not keep these users

[Uteck]

My office is Mac. It has been since it was founded in the mid 80's. But the boss has come to the conclusion that we can not stay this way since there is still no decent groupware for Apple and MS Office has all ways run bad on it and all ways will.
For the 1 or 2 graphics we make for reports do not justify the supposed performance of Mac over PC.
So sometime late this year or early next year we will switch to Windows. Apple could keep us if they allowed iCal and Addressbook to share over rendezvous as a cheep form of groupware.
Office may run better on pc, but the OS does not!
It will be a few years before she admits that she can do her job on Linux.

Re:Mac did not keep these users

[Anonymous Coward]

How many users in your Office? Could you justify setting up an OS X Server (or a Linux server)? You can publish iCals via WebDAV and setup LDAP for your Address Book.

when apple is dead, what will all the limp wrists

[Anonymous Coward]

type on?

seriously there will be a huge influx of gays into the hetero pc world the day apple finally finishes dying

Not YET BUT

[yabos]

When it pickes up they will no doubt make a profit with it. You can't make a proffit when you first start a business and this applies for any business.

Apple as an investment

[Doomdark]

from Money Magazine...

and little value in the stock.

Independent of whether Apple continues to operate as a company, keep in mind that from investment point of view, Apple hasn't been all that great a thing. Even when taking a long-term view (like this, comparing AAPL with dow jones since Apple's listing) main reason to own Apple shares would be to show your loyalty to company, not to make money. On medium term; over past 10 years, investing in Apple would have been even worse, and had brought you only 50% growth (and dividends are almost neglibly small). That's much lower than what is traditionally expected (somewhere slightly above 10% annual ROI).

So what does this matter? Just that from investment POV (it was written by Money mag) Apple has been a dog, and they are trying to explain why they think it remains such, even though it has good brand, got the spotlight, positive "mindshare". You may disagree, but that's their background.

Re:Apple as an investment

[Anacrusis]

How is a stock jump from 6 1/2 to about 75 and then a split pure loyalty and not a money making situation?

Re:Apple as an investment

[superdan2k]

Funny. I bought 500 shares at about $17 waaaay back around the time the original iPod came out. Those shares went as high as $150 before the 2 for 1 split. So I wound up with 1000 shares at about $75. Which I sold. Profit: $66600. I'd say that's a damned good investment.

Strangely, if you stick a decimal point before the zeros, that's the price of the original Apple 1.

Re:Apple as an investment

[mst76]

> How is a stock jump from 6 1/2 to about 75 and then a split pure loyalty and not a money making situation?

I don't know where you get your figures, I got them from finance.yahoo.com, AAPL, historical prices. The last split (2:1) occured 21 June 2000, where they went from 98.37 to 50.31. In September 2000 the stock imploded (along with the rest of the market) from 60ish to 20ish.

Of course we should be looking at prices adjusted for splits and dividends (although I don't think they ever paid any). From the Yahoo table, you can calculate that if you invested in AAPL 5, 10 or 15 years ago, you would have made a total return of 43%, 61%, or 67% respectively, which isn't all that great. The Dow Jones returns of the past 5, 10 and 15 years were 5%, 180% and 349%, and as a portfolio much less risky. If you were so unlucky to have bough and held AAPL in Februari or March 1992, you'd still be at loss, 12 years later.

Re:Apple as an investment

[Multipleg]

Apple split twice in that time frame. The graphed value doesn't take that into account.

Re:Apple as an investment

[Doomdark]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it does; all historic price/dividend stats take basic facts like that into account. And checking adjusted daily values seemed to confirm this.

So many missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

So many are citing the increase of macs in their world. This is not the point. I can sell all I want, but if I am not making a profit, then I have a problem. Apple is selling, but their maket share is not increasing very fast. Add to that shrinking profit on each unit, and you have a bad trend. The curves are pointing in the wrong direction. This is not the end, just a bad trend that can be reversed. This time, though, Microsoft will not feel compelled to bail Apple out. They have Linux as a threat, so they don't need a viable Apple to fend off monopoly charges.

1 easy way to make Apple's marketshare skyrocket.

[Ghostx13]

Release the stranglehold on the hardware.

I have 6 PCs and a laptop. I would not have a single x86 system if the price of Apple's hardware were competitive with x86 hardware or if I could at least build one myself without having to jump through 8000 hoops.

Granted, I understand Apple's desire to maintain strict control over the quality etc... of their products, but the simple fact is that "Mom and Dad" or "Dear Ole' Granny" aren't going to spend $1300.00 on a computer anymore (yes, I know e-macs are $799.00 but have you seen advertising for these? I haven't), much less $1800.00 for a G5.

All that said howerver, Apple seems content with it's market share. Apple likes to innovate and cater to THEIR market. Saying that Apple should become basically another pc clone is like saying Lotus, or McLaren, or Saleen or any of the other niche car makers should start makeing passenger cars. Theirs not really a point to it. They do what they do well, and they will ALWAYS have support, and always have a market.

Re: My Story

[smellygeek]

I figured I'd share my switch story also.

Before purchasing my first Mac in 2000, I was opposed to them on much of the same grounds others claim. When returning to school, I was tired of carrying my PC with all the cables and components with me to and from home each semester. Knowing the iMac was an all-in-one unit and thinking they're kind of cool looking, I figured I'd look at them.

As I began to look it over, I began to come up with other reasons why it'd be a good purchase. No one would use it to type papers. It didn't have a floppy drive. I could watch DVDs. I could play my PSX games via Connectix Virtual Game Station. It began to make sense. And yes, amazingly, I had a number of people ask to use it until they found out it was a Mac or didn't have a floppy drive.

Over the next two years of school, I continued to use it. My friends called it a gay computer. But, I grew to love it. I also ended up purchasing an iBook. Then this past Apple I upgraded to the LCD iMac. All my old arguments against Apple are null and void in my mind.

Since that time, I've managed to convert two friends over to the faith. One has purchased a G5, PowerMac G4, and a PowerBook. The other is planning to get one shortly. It's amazing what happens when a little love it put into a computer's design.

Obligatory Simpsons Reference

[Manhigh]

Bart: I feel like I'm going to die, Lisa
Lisa: We're all going to die, Bart.
Bart: I meant soon.
Lisa: So did I.

Apple's untapped market: Linux (no, seriously)

[Nice2Cats]

I just bought a 12" iBook as my new laptop, which I guess makes me a switcher (except that I don't take dope like in their ads). Apple has me absolutely sold on their hardware: Clean, light, beautifully designed, great battery life, and, as a most welcome change from x86 laptops, absolutely silent. There are a few annoying things, of course (the single mouse button and lack of a line-in jack, for example), but if you are looking for a new portable, I suggest you take a serious look at the iBook.

Mac OS X is another story. I've been using it exclusively now for a few weeks while I'm waiting for the new version of Yellow Dog Linux to come out, and after all the hype, I am somewhat underwhelmed. Even when you consider that part of the "Steve's Way" philosophy is not to confuse the user with options, lots of things are missing. Mail doesn't have TLS (I use Thunderbird), and once you get tired of the cute effects, you find you can't turn most of them off (windows won't just close, they always have to have an "effect"). Mac OS X is cute and flashy, but when you want to settle down for serious work, I'm afraid KDE does it better.

And this is where I think Apple has lots of untapped market potential. There is a enormous frustration among Linux users about the lack of a good portable platform for the penguin -- I for one will never buy another Toshiba, for example -- and Apple can deliver. Just a little help here and there, and they could probably get establish their iBooks / Powerbooks as the portable platform of choice for the increasing number of Linux users.

And then because of the coming of World Domination (c), they would never have to worry about profits, and we would never have to read these articles again.

Has your office *Tried* MS Office X

[porkchop_d_clown]

I had the same opinion as your boss - earlier versions of Office for Mac were horrible. But I had a chance to get Office X on the cheap (I was in Redmond for a class) and it is really quite good. The only problem I've encountered is that the VBA environment on Mac is missing some things.

Office for Mac 2004 looks even better.

resulting a shrinking marketshare?!?!?!!

[greenskyx]

Did you happen to see that Apples marketshare (as measured by Google) went up 1% from 3-4%?? http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html That's really not bad. I think that alone the iPod won't save Apple, but they really are doing good things...

higher resolution than what?

[porkchop_d_clown]

Higher res on the laptops?

Exactly what do you think a reasonable laptop resolution would be?

Re:higher resolution than what?

[xutopia]

The best Apple can do is a 1440x900 resolution on their 17" laptop which starts at USD $2,999. On Dell.com I can get a 1920x1200 display on a 15.2" laptop for USD $2500. Sure the 17" is bigger but the resolution isn't as good as what Dell offers. Now if Apple offered the same resolution to me and at the same price there would be no contest.

Re:higher resolution than what?

[porkchop_d_clown]

You must have really good eyes because I certainly have no use for 1920x1200 on a 15" LCD.

Bluetooth

[System.out.println()]

I would have believed Bluetooth was dying... until Apple built it into everything. But Apple has a way of ensuring that new things become standard. (Can you say Wifi? USB? Firewire?)

Re:Bluetooth

[cens0r]

WiFi - Linksys, D-Link, WiFi Hotspots... not apple.

USB - Windows 98, USB devices... not apple.

Firewire - DV Cameras, Sony... apple helped a little, but not much.

Re:Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

WiFi - Linksys, D-Link, WiFi Hotspots... not apple.

Hmm, so Apple wasn't the first to roll out a laptop with 802.11b in it? News to the entire world.

USB - Windows 98, USB devices... not apple.

So Windows 98 came out before the iMac did? Wow. Neat trick, considering how the iMac came out in 1996...

Firewire - DV Cameras, Sony... apple helped a little, but not much.

Firewire is Apple's name for 1394. By your posting of this, you acknowledge Apple's importance to this standard.

Re:Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

No one was putting USB ports on motherboards until the iMac appeared with two ports standard. As for Firewire, it was Apple who invented the damn thing.

That you could think WiFi adoption was driven by anything other than the original iBook underscores your stupidity.

He never did.

[Kjella]

Yes, I know you guys are going "but Macs are so much better, and you get what you pay for, and Macs are a bargain even at these prices". Well, Joe Schmo customer doesn't agree. He's out at BestBuy or CompUSA looking for a new computer, and all he sees is that Macs 1- cost a lot more, and 2- can't run the games and software that PCs can.

He never did either. But markedshare != profits. That cutthroat price-slashed PC doesn't earn HP or eMachines much in marginal profit, but each Apple sold is a considerable number of $$$ above cost. Look at the mini-iPods. Are they taking over the market? Perhaps not. Are they making a lot of money? Oh yes.

I wouldn't worry too much about Apple's future. Of course Mac users, which are used to having a very intuitive and consistent interface, doesn't like the changes. But when push comes to shove and they have to upgrade, I'm quite sure that it'll be a Mac and run OS X, and it won't feel slow on that hardware.

Kjella

Re:Except that they don't make any profit on iTune

[curtoid]

I was wondering why they would say that... I mean the royalty on each song is something like 7 cents! I understand the investment in setting up the service hasn't been paid for maybe... but they cannot honestly say there's no profit margin. Who are they kidding?

Why the Xbox will (accidently) save Apple

[amichalo]

Microsoft will be the one's to save Apple - by means of their own greed.

Follow me here:
1. Microsoft saw that new computer sales were being lead by games, so they build the Xbox to dominate the game machine market.
2. The next gen Xbox is running IBM's G5 processor (getting the idea)
3. When games are released that will run on a G5, it makes sense that by hacker or by legal means (game writers por to OS X), those games will make it onto Apple desktops.
4. Apple becomes a viable gaming platform
5. Gamers start choosing Apple over Xbox
6. Game writers start writing for Apple natively
7. Microsoft's Xbox saves Apple

Re:Why the Xbox will (accidently) save Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

8. Gamers realize that Apple only has a 1-button mouse and stick to their PC.
9. Games that don't care about the mouse realize how damn expensive Apple is and stick to their PC.

It's all about the batteries...

[DaveOf9thKey]

I hope Apple isn't betting the company on the iPod, because I don't see a long-term future in standalone music players. I'm in the market for a new cellphone and find that even on the cheapest contract deals I can get a free phone with a built-in MP3/AAC player. Some even include video players. OK so most have limited flash memory for now, but it can't be long until they start integrating gigabyte drives.

And such a device will have a battery life of about 6 hours -- less if you plan to use your cellphone as an actual phone, too.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for convergence, but cellphones can only do so much. My 20GB Archos Multimedia Jukebox can go about 7 hours before it needs a recharge, less if I use it to play video or take pictures with that crummy camera. If I try to integrate something like that into my cellphone, it's not going to get me through the day, and that won't do.

One gadget that can do it all is cool, but it's going to need one hell of a battery to do the job. Personally, I can live with two gadgets that can do it all if it means I don't have to recharge them every 6 hours.

Re:Some people do not know how to quantify quality

[Taicho]

I have also ben programming for years and I do see your point but it iss my personal belief that the only people that our really supporting Apple atleast consumer wise are the fanatics out there that will only use macs the same kind of people that for instance call themselves professional photographers because they bought the "Pro" camera and case to go with it this is directly apparent with the Apple pro mouse which in reality is direct opposite of what you would consider a professional mouse hmmm 1 button with a shiny white coat it must be professional! I think eventually this generation of "computer newbies" will start to evolve atleast mentally when it comes to decisions on electronics and as this happens more and more the wave of ignorance and blind "computer faith" that has been supporting the renewed apple will slowly but surely dissapate. If you see your bosses swiching to macs it is because one of their buddies sat down with them in front of an Imac and showed them how cool it is when you minimize it makes the window it get sucked into the dock and maybe the real-time thumbnails but under all that pretty user-friendly crap is a very unstable, exploitable, and very slow OS. My name is Taicho and I approve this message.

Re:zealots - Hear Here!

[eltoyoboyo]

These discussions aren't so much PC zealots vs. Mac zealots - it's usually mac zealots vs. the PC users who push their (our?) buttons for fun

Buddy can you spare a +1 interesting?...

"Zealous men are ever displaying to you the strength of their belief. while judicious men are showing you the grounds of it." -William Shenstone

But then....

[System.out.println()]

But then the analysts will say "this new iThing is Apple's last hope - a sign that they are dying and desperate."

You can spin anything into "Apple is dying", apparently.

OS X for Unix shops

[amyhughes]

I'm a Unix hack at a Fortune 5 company. My standing joke: when are we doing a Mac port?

As everywhere, we've had to investigate porting to Windows. To please the bean counters. There are currently too many reasons not to do so, so once again we carry on writing Unix code.

Linux? Biggest reason we can't seriously consider that is there isn't another mega corporation we can get support from. That's important to the suits. They still think we'll need to go knocking on dormroom doors for support.

My Macintosh joke? Hmmm... not so funny anymore. The only piece missing for my part is our version control software isn't available. High-end graphics cards would help, too. But I could get the apps running.

Probably never gonna happen here, but at smaller companies I can see OS X making a dent in the Unix world. Given enough frustration over virus outbreaks I can also see OS X as a viable desktop for the corporate masses. Even our (cough!) beloved MS Office runs on OS X.

Amy

Re:OS X for Unix shops

[Hassman]

Nice Legos... :)

Re:OS X for Unix shops

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice Legos...

I was going to say the same thing, but after I read it on the screen, it seemed so dirty...

Re:OS X for Unix shops

[easter1916]

Marry me!

Re:OS X for Unix shops

[Anonymous Coward]

No, wait, marry me and we can raise the kids any religion you want - *BSD, Solaris, IRIX, Linux (but I am not sure about Debian or Gentoo), OS X, VMS, AIX, DG-UX, VM, Plan9, BeOS...

Re:OS X for Unix shops

[Hassman]

Eww...you're right.

I guess, I'm just a dirty boy.

This is all BS

[FooGoo]

If Apple really got into trouble Steve would just pull out that copy of OSX for Intel he keeps under his pillow.

Ipod profit margin

[winwar]

Problem is, according to the article at least, the iPod which you state has

"a relatively healthly profit margin."

seem to be depressing Apple's overall profit margin. I suspect that the low end unit has a rather low profit margin, much less than their computers. Certainly higher than iTunes of course.

If it doesn't drive the adoption of other Apple hardware (higher margin), I suspect it would be considered less than a total success. The iPod is a low margin mass produced consumer electronics device in the end - others can make similar products cheaper.

In the end, Apple isn't going anywhere. They have a lot of money. But I think the analyst is correct in stating that they make nice stuff but they are a poor investment.

I Predict,

[polyp2000]

Beware, vague and sweeping comments, from a linux user!

Apple design iconic products, there is no doubt about that. Aside from the different architecture ppc vs x86 the only real difference is the operating system. OSX, has fundamentally changed many peoples opinion of the system. It is a Unix that "Just Works" as seems to be the Geeky-Mac users catchphrase, as much as I've heard it enough times, that is almost certainly a truism. The interesting thing about OSX, is that unlike windows(which needs cygwin), you can compile or run most open source software out of the box pretty much. Either that or download a binary. For me this adds up to the fact that I can have the cool stuff like imovie and itunes and whatever on a gorgeous looking box or laptop, but also continue to use all my favorite Linux programs.

I often wondered how absurd it was that OS9 users had to buy that old "Fetch" ftp program in order to ftp. There are numerous other pieces of Mac software like this that with the newfound ease of recompiling common opensource stuff to run on OSX must surely be affecting the bottom line some of the smaller oldschool mac software companies.

The end outcome of this is surely going to be that aside from your big companies like macromedia and adobe, with the fat industry standard applications. The smaller software co's are likely to loose out. Hence the mac becomes a less enticing market for new proprietary-model companies to break into. In no means does this mean that OSX will become a less popular platform but I think that it will become a platform with a lot more freedom and software choice.

That in itself is going to keep it going. It is going to be very interesting to watch the Apple camp over the next few years, they have made several commitments to open source , KHTML , Darwin , et.al, It is only a matter of time before the benefits of this way of life become a more and more important part of their business model. So long as they keep making sexy looking consumer electronics, that "Just work" thats all that matters, after all thats what you pay for, aint it ?

(please take my comments with a pinch of salt ;) )

Let's see

[kurt555gs]

the financial press says Apple is dying, sell thier stock, BUT ... SCO stock should reach $45.00 per share.

Givin the facts, what's wrong with this picture?

Those stores and businesses

[nbahi15]

The Apple store in San Francisco is an incredible showcase. It is packed and people are seriously dreaming about owning a Mac. I think people want to be associated with form as well as function and actually using a Mac helps seal that association of the Mac being form and function. That can only lead to a sale. Many people are getting their first Apple product in the form of iTunes and iPod, so the next step will be a laptop or desktop.

The real movement I'm seeing in business is first-class support for the simple applications that are required to do business. For the first time we are seeing managers doing Powerpoint presentations from a Mac. Executives like our CIO are requiring that VPN and other core business services support Mac OSX. Hell I've even heard people talk about picking up an XServe. The icing is that we now have an employee/corporate discount for Apple, which means that we will likely be offering the Mac as an official corporate tool soon.

Sun workstations

[oneiros27]

I used to work in a place that was primarily running on Sun hardware for a few years. In February 2003, we had some major problems, and they had to bring in a whole string of folks from Sun Professional Services to work around the clock to get us back up and running.

Of the 6 folks who brought portables with them, 3 of them were Powerbooks. [I got confused on the first day one of them was in, as I thought he was mucking with my personal laptop] One of the folks said he was working with some other folks on getting his powerbook to work as a JumpStart server, so he could configure and load new sun systems from it.

Our company had some sparc notebooks (Tadpole), but not a single one of the guys from Sun used one -- they were all macs or wintel.

I haven't been in a Sun shop for almost a year now, but their push before was towards the whole 'smart terminal' concept, not really at true workstations.

G3's and OSX performance...

[Big Sean O]

I bought an iMac DV SE (the first Graphite iMac) in Jan 2000. When I started, it ran Mac OS 9, and it ran it well...

Meanwhile, my mother had an early Bondi Blue iMac which she bought in 1998. It ran Mac OS 9 and it ran it well.

When Mac OS X came out, I, being an early adopter, upgraded. Mainly because I wanted to learn all the Unix-y stuff without dual booting Yellow Dog Linux.

I have to admit, Mac OS X 10.0 was a lot slower. I only put up with it because I knew this was the future. 10.1 was faster. 10.2 was faster still. In fact, by the time 10.2 came out, my 2000-era iMac felt faster than my wife's newer iBook laptop running Mac OS 9.2.

Now that 10.3 is out, with another perceived speed boost, I'm quite certain that my mother would be happy switching (yep, she's still using the 1998 iMac).

So, if Apple is slipping on hardware sales, it's because of two things:

1. Macs last 'forever' (6 years without one hardware hiccup is forever in my book)

2. Each Mac OS X releases has felt like a performance upgrade.

I'm getting ready to upgrade my mother to Panther and I'm telling my sister, who is currently using a really beat-up Powerbook 520 (from 1995!), to buy an iBook.

It is my experience that, frankly, once you go Apple, you never go back...

Apple Demise Predicted Again

[Naum]

This isn't news anymore...

I think it's interesting though how Apple is now straddling a tightrope - I see posts scattered here about how tech savvy users have flocked to OS X and even I, in my traveling service partner gig, have sold some folks on OS X after they see me work with my powerbook (whether it be plugged into a projector and teaching classes or just using it for contract *nix work and having folks see what a joy it is compared to Windows boxes...). However, I think Apple has lost some of the old OS 9 customer base that were not so enamored with OS X. Sad, because those folks will now venture back into a world teeming with viruses, worms, spam and clunkier multimedia software.

But I think the increased usage by so referred to technorati has future blessings for Mac users or non Windows users in general. More developers flocking to the platform, even if for curiosity sakes, means more software for Mac users or more cross platform offings.

Again, the best of both worlds - a state of the art desktop GUI (yes, it has some warts still) coupled with all the *nix tools. I used to run Linux on my home desktop - it worked fine for a lot of stuff but I had difficulties with USB devices hooking in, wireless setup and tasks like CD burning - not that these were because of Linux, but still these issues had to be dealt with. OS X just works yet I get the added bonus of superior display aesthetics (and for someone like me with poor eyesight is essential) and all the *nix goodies.

* Comes with all the development tools and IDE to do Cocoa programming or cross platform Java, perl or python.

* Apache server plus PHP built in and easy to add whatever server platform add-on.

* Pretty colors and easy on the eyes fonts for all those ssh sessions needed for work and for home server handling.

* X11 and ability to run the Gimp and the whole gauntlent of free software.

When it's time for a new desktop, I'm going to get another Mac and replace the AMD box that currently sits there... ... that Wall Street and the financial barons deem Apple to be a bad stock investment phases me not. I think they can exist as a niche computing hardware supplier and etch out enough profit to stay in business. At least until the next round of monopolistic Microsoft collusion control with hardware manufacturers and media conglomerates that incorporate "trusted" DRM computing that locks out non Windows computer users...

Re:Apple Demise Predicted Again

[easter1916]

* X11 and ability to run the Gimp and the whole gauntlent of free software.

I think you meant gamut rather than gauntlent [sic]. Or perhaps, subconsciously, you chose gauntlet as it is the more accurate word... ;-)

Re:Apple Demise Predicted Again

[prockcore]

* Comes with all the development tools and IDE to do Cocoa programming or cross platform Java, perl or python.


So does linux, and the .net developers kit is a free download from MS.

* Apache server plus PHP built in and easy to add whatever server platform add-on.


Same with linux, and Windows.


* Pretty colors and easy on the eyes fonts for all those ssh sessions needed for work and for home server handling.


Actually, FreeType2 does better font rendering than Apple. And Apple's terminal is the slowest piece of crap ever.


* X11 and ability to run the Gimp and the whole gauntlent of free software.


So does Windows. And Gimp on Windows doesn't require anything as horrible as fink.

Re:Apple Demise Predicted Again

[norkakn]

neither does gimp on osx

Re:Apple Demise Predicted Again

[Naum]

Again, I used to run Linux, but time is a premium for me and getting USB devices, firewire devices, etc. can still be a laborious chore compared to OS X where it just works when you plug it in. And most ISP do not support Linux - if you call in (not a concern for me so much as family) with net availability problems, you get cut off at the first mention of Linux. Yeah, I could go back to broadband, but no I choose not to downgrade my internet connection.

Not interested in developer tools for Windows. Nor am I for Mac OS X either... Linux is cool, all my servers run Linux (or the commercial ones that are UNIX) and I used to run Linux primarily before I switched to OS X - reporting and accounting demands require Office software and then open source stuff is just not up to snuff yet... at least for the requirements I have in running a business.

Yeah I could run Apache on Windows... then again, I could paint my house with a toothbrush too...

FreeType2? How many applications are supported? Will the average user be able to set this up easily? Doubtful... Trying to get anti-aliased fonts working (though I haven't been running Linux since 2002 now, at least in Desktop mode...) in Linux was next to impossible when I tried it...

Apple's terminal is much improved and with Panther just as fast as any other I've used from Windows boxes to a console on Sun servers I've administered. Valid criticism for pre-Jaguar but not apropos anymore.

I don't need fink to install Gimp on OSX, just the GTK libraries and X11 which you don't need Fink for either. It comes standard with OS X now. I used Fink for Jaguar but for Panther I've discovered it's no longer necessary.

You better...

[cjsnell]

You better squid... You guys are giving me a haddock.

Now with apple out of the way...

[srcosmo]

...I predict that 2004 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!

Irresponsible journalism?

[aztektum]

Isn't it irresponsible for Money Magazine with its large reader base to spread word of disaster for a company that isn't performing solely on the authors expectations?

I realize Apple stock holders probably aren't going to sell off everything in Apl b/c of this, but could it not happen some smaller company and start a chain reaction in the market?

I'll admit I'm no economics major, but with the way the markets are up/down these days this seems like a way to create havoc.

Yet another fact-distorting article

[bluephone]

I'm not even an Apple fan, and I think this article is nuts.

• "Even when you factor in Apple's $13 a share in cash and almost no debt, the company's stock, at a recent $23, trades at 20 times estimated 2004 earnings. Dell's shares, on the other hand, go for 26 times projected 2004 earnings -- but its business is three times as profitable as Apple's."

First they state that the shares are $13 per, then comment thta when it was $23 shares it was trading at a high P/E ratio, as though it's bad, but then shows how Dell has a higher ratio. And to boot, he compares earning on a fiscal year that's not even closed yet. And on top of it, Dell isn't debt free. In fact, FEW companies are debt free, but apple is. that alone makes it a great stock buy.

• "Tom Santos, one of the plaintiffs, estimates that Apple's stores would have lost as much as $80 million in 2003 had they been paying the same prices for inventory as the resellers paid."

Ok sir, tell you what, we'll have Apple charge you HIGHER prices so you don't have to complain about not going out of business.

• "And Apple's earnings would have been worse had it not been for $4.8 billion the company has in cash and short-term securities. In fact, the cash hoard made more money last year than Apple's operations -- which lost $1 million while the computer maker booked a $69 million gain on interest income."

Which is far more than any Microsoft division made last year, excluding Office and Operating Systems.

• "Out of the hundreds of people who were waiting outside Apple's SoHo store in the cold to buy an iPod, I could find only one whose positive experience with the music player led him to buy an Apple computer."

Ok, so they polled people for their experiences of devices they haven't bought yet. That's a great poll. I'd like to see a poll of people who bought Sony CD or MP3 players, to ask them if it made them buy a Sony Vaio. Or if HP's new iPod clone will make them buy an HP. That's a bogus comparison.

• "While Apple's sales of $6.2 billion last fiscal year were nearly unchanged from 1999, profits plummeted 90 percent to $69 million, from $601 million four years ago...Jobs' mass-appeal strategy has crimped the company's historically high profit margins. Apple's net profit margin is just 1 percent. That's down from 10 percent four years ago."

The margins for PC makers has been razor thin for years, it just finally caught up with Apple. I got out of selling boxes years ago due to shrinking margins. The fact that you can get multi-GHz PCs for $500 while a 1Ghz apple is more than grand doesn't help either. So let's not blame Jobs for the shrinking margins, let's blame market factors. As for shrinking profits, that's due to hardware that's overpriced.

• "Apple sold just over 3 million computers in its last fiscal year, which ended in September -- 900,000 less than it sold in fiscal 1996, the year before Jobs returned...Meanwhile, Apple's share of the worldwide personal-computer market has shrunk to 2 percent from 3.2 percent five years ago."

Ok, let's not compare this last year's performance to the year before, or any other year Jobs wa there, let's comapre it to before he arrived. Well, fine then, let's compare the other years since 1996 when Steve managed to maneuver Apple into selling far more PCs than in 1996. Let's compare how this year's sales are disappointing to last year's, to be fair. And let's factor in the lack of new product development in that part of the company's line up. They've been focusing on the consumer device market, like with the iPod mini (a smash seller). Gateway has been pushing plasma TVs and digital cameras FAR harder than PCs. Companies can only do so much at a time. Even Microsoft, arguably the world's biggest software company, can only manage an OS upgrade every 3-4 years now, and their project dates always slip every further.

I'm not Apple fanboy. I can't stand the Mac OS UI, I don't like the hand holding, I don't like the over priced hardware, I don't like the platform lock in, etc. But, let's at LEAST be fair about an examination of the company.

Re:Yet another fact-distorting article

[Ars-Fartsica]

Which is far more than any Microsoft division made last year, excluding Office and Operating Systems.

Uh, are you forgetting that Microsoft also has an investment arm for its cash on hand? Apple's performance in investments is not exceptional. Every corporation has enjoyed benefits from a bloated market, low interest rates, and a falling dollar to boost foreign sales.

You have to show Apple doing something outside the performance of the average S&P firm.

Your discussion of Dell with regard to debt is truly meaningless - Dell can finance this debt at insanely low historical rates right now - I am not sure why a firm with a future would want to be debt free when debt is going for such low low costs. This is the time to borrow, not the time to lend.

Re:Yet another fact-distorting article

[Anonymous Coward]

> First they state that the shares are $13 per, then comment thta when it was $23 shares it was

The share price has not been under $20 for quite some time now.The $13 mentioned refers to the amount of cash per share, not the share price.

> And on top of it, Dell isn't debt free. In fact, FEW companies are debt free, but apple is. that alone makes it a great stock buy.

Dell has 5.15B cash, 0.5B debt, Apple has 4.8B cash, 0.3B debt which they recently repayed. Whether being debt free is good for a company depends on the exact circumstances, but in many cases it isn't. As a simple example, consider a company that can borrow at a lower interest rate than it can lend. Another example, a debt-free company which has the opportunity to start a new very profitable project for which it needs some extra cash. If it wants to remain debt free, it can either abandon the project, or issue new stock. If the stock price happens to be low, it needs to issue a lot of stock, which means that the profit will be dilluted amongst more shareholders. If the borrowing rate is low, the optimal decision (for the original shareholders) is clearly to issue bonds, i.e., getting in debt.

Re:Yet another fact-distorting article

[RockClimbingFool]

Being debt free is not a good thing. How long till people understand this? Large companies are not run like your household. Too much debt is a sign your company maybe over extending itself. Too little debt means you are not using your available cash reserves properly.

Individuals and organizations don't want their multimillion dollar investments sitting around in a savings account. Debt is a direct indication of your investors confidence in your companies ablity to make them money.

All companines have cash reserves. Very, very few companies are debt free. There is a reason for that and it isn't that is Apple is such a great company.

Re:Yet another fact-distorting article

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Apple has made tremendous profits with its investments in ARM (Back from finding a good chipmaker for Newton) and Akamai.

EE Times don't concur

[Emil Brink]

Regarding the margin question, I like the "Under the Hood" series at EE Times. This particular entry concludes that the cost of goods sold for the iPod is way lower than the asking price. Their analysis puts the retail price at about twice the cost of the hardware... I'm not actually sure if that's "low", but as a consumer I rather hope it is not. Call me naive. :)

Re:EE Times don't concur

[foobar77]

From what I have read, Apple purchases most of the technology for the iPod from outside. Their primary value added is the circular UI, which is cool but only a limited part of the package. So, hardware cost may be low, but Apple has significant royalties flowing out to the originating technology providers. The cash to Apple's bottom line is not as large as might be suspected.

Re:EE Times don't concur

[cens0r]

But what about R&D? What about those TV spots? What about the adds plastered all over the buses here in seattle? What about customer support, distribution, etc? Factor all that in and the true cost of the iPod may be much closer to the retail cost.

Agreed, cash on hand is a unused potential

[Ars-Fartsica]

To many investors, a large cash stash is not seen as a positive. It is seen as investor wealth being confiscated and unused. When you invest in Apple you are investing in the ability of the employees to create a vision and use your cash to implement that vision. If you wanted someone to invest in funds on your behalf you could just put your money in SPY or DIA and skip the middleman and get greater clarity on where your funds are going.

Some cash on hand is useful for riding out tough times, but the point of the corporation is not to act as a mutual fund. There are already four thousand funds out there for anyone who wants that.

I think you meant Ecclesiastes

[TimTheFoolMan]

OK... here goes my Excellent Karma for the sake of being anal about scripture.

Few modern scholars still believe Solomon was the sole author of The Book of Ecclesiastes, where "there is nothing new under the sun" is most frequently cited (Ecc. 1:9). I can think of at least 3 instances in the first 7 chapters where a variation of "under the sun" occurs, and the overriding notion is one of "nothing new here, move along." It's usually accompanied with "chasing after the wind."

Proverbs is much more a collection of one-liner wisdom, as opposed to the somber, old-age reflection of Ecclesiastes.

In best Bible Nazi voice: "No points for you!"

(Points +/- for me to be determined by those even more anal than I.)

Tim

Re:Honestly - who gives a fuck?

[NotZed]

The words "who cares" come to mind.

Wankaaar.

With a huge leap like the G5 why??

[riversky]

Apple's PowerMac G5 sales have been horrible and the iMac's been this way for a while. Why with the massive leap in technology are the G5 sales still falling? Well, because with Linux in the game people want multiple hardware and software venders for cost and flexibility reasons but Apple is the a completely closed system! The world is moving the other way and the professional sales prove this!

Re:With a huge leap like the G5 why??

[sammaffei]

I think it's more like G5s and iMacs are too overpriced.

The SuperDrive iMac is $1800. The low end G5 is also $1800 (before you even touch a display). Too expensive.

Most consumers won't pay those prices anymore (especially in a sucky economy).

As I clutch my PowerBook G4 1Ghz praying for the day of a reasonably priced G5 laptop...

Ahh, the old "you just hate Apple!" reply...

[DesScorp]

"Sources? Citations? Studies? Even links to articles?"

These are friends of mine. Should I interview them and get transcripts for you?

"I have met NO Mac user to date that didn't think that OS X was an improvement on 9."

Well, then obviously you and I are talking to different people then.

"So what's your point? I think you just don't like Macs. Which is fine, but don't hide it behind unsupportable arguments and invented or anectodal evidence from your three friends."

None is invented, thanks, and if you must know, the count of Mac using friends stands at 17. Of those, 10 are classic users. Of those ten, only one of them is just dying to get OSX. He just can't afford a new Mac right now, so he has to stick with what he has. And while only one of them says she hates OSX, 6 others say they'll guess they'll have to upgrade eventually. But they're not real enthusiastic about it, at least not yet. Maybe that will change. These are also mostly older users, so maybe that has something to do with it. The last two have gotten used to Windows at work, and so have bought XP boxes for their families, and use their Macs only sporadically. They say they liked them, but think Macs are too expensive. One got a Dell, the other got an HP. Obviously, these are not fanatics (yes, there are Apple users that are not fanatics), but they ARE longtime Mac users. They don't especially like XP, they just needed new machines, and their new ones are cheap, and the kids know Windows from school.

You sound like an easily offended man, so just to rub salt in the wound some more, of those 7 OSX users I know, four are G3 Ibook users that have since added YellowDog Linux, because they think OSX is too slow on the G3. The other 3 have PowerBook G4s, and are relatively happy with their performance. As of yet, I don't know anyone that owns a G5.

So there you have it. My three friends and their invented anecdotes.

Oh, by the way, as far as me hating Macs, you're full of shit. I like OSX, it's way better than OS classic, as it inherited much of NeXT, which I always lusted after. And anytime I get a complaint about the constant assault of viruses and trojans, and people ask my advice, know what I tell them?

"Simple. Buy a Mac".

Try not to be so damn touchy.

Re:Ahh, the old "you just hate Apple!" reply...

[crackshoe]

I actually did the same thing as your ibook friends - switched over to yellowdog linux on my ibook. on my dual 2gHz g5, i still run OS X, but i'm waiting to get KDE 3.2 running over it, since i've started to despise aqua.

i'm not just a wacky mac user. i also have a win2k athlon 2600 system and an old dell running mandrake 10.0.

Re:Ahh, the old "you just hate Apple!" reply...

[jared_hanson]

I just wanted to share my experiences with you from a slightly different perspective.

I know 3 Mac users: me, a good friend, and my mother. My friend and I are both avid Windows haters and have run Linux for the greater portion of at least 3 years now. My mother is a teacher and has, more or less, always used Macs except where various traning required use of Windows. ...6 others say they'll guess they'll have to upgrade eventually. But they're not real enthusiastic about it, at least not yet. Maybe that will change.

I'm betting it will change. My mother just upgraded from OS 8.something. She bought a G3 eMac, 800 MHz if I recall. It's no screamer, but it handles OS X just fine and doesn't feel any slower to me than your average Windows 2000/XP system. She has taken to OS X so well that she abhors going back to OS 9, which she has to every day at the school she teaches at. In addition, she was dreading going through the uprade, but found it relatively painless. ...7 OSX users I know, four are G3 Ibook users that have since added YellowDog Linux, because they think OSX is too slow on the G3. The other 3 have PowerBook G4s, and are relatively happy with their performance.

I've used the G3 eMac and find its performance at least as reasonable as most computers. I wouldn't use it, but its fine for the not technically inclined. Your YD Linux friends obviously are more technically minded than most, so are probably concerned with performance. I have a Al PowerBook and am considering dual booting Linux just to tinker. This is technical curiosity, rather than any spite for OS X.

As of yet, I don't know anyone that owns a G5.

I own one and am incredibly happy. Not too much difference in every day performance than my PowerBook, but it chews through CPU intensive tasks. Easily the best computer I've ever used.

I got the G5 first, around the end of October, and that was my first Mac. I bought the PowerBook in January. I haven't run Windows on a personal machine (I do at work) in about 3 years, sticking solely with Linux. Hands down, OS X is the best all around OS available.

I've since encouraged a few people to buy Macs, and I may get a couple converts. I refuse to encourage Windows adoption, as it leads to big hassles. I wan't to encourage Linux, but it needs to mature in the end-user usability and reliability areas.

Re:Ahh, the old "you just hate Apple!" reply...

[oblivionboy]

*sigh*

"These are friends of mine. Should I interview them and get transcripts for you?"

No. I'm saying I don't care about your friends. Or my friends for that matter. I'm looking for some kind of statistically valid survey of Mac users. Anecdotal stories are fun over beer, but nothing you have said has made your point.

"Well, then obviously you and I are talking to different people then."

No we're talking about Mac users here. As a class of people, they're the same.

"You sound like an easily offended man"

No, although you seem very defensive when someone asks you for some 3rd party information (also known as "facts"). I would like to see some of what you're saying backed up with something other than you typing at a keyboard. Can you at least show me some facts? One?

"so just to rub salt in the wound some more, "

*Yawn* Oh please. Keep rubbing. I'll try and keep myself awake. :)

"of those 7 OSX users I know, four are G3 Ibook users that have since added YellowDog Linux, because they think OSX is too slow on the G3."

Which is exactly what I said in my post. Did you read it? That G3s are too slow to run OSX. We know that. Why would you run Linux on them though? I mean, why? If you have a Mac, you bought it for it's Maciness. Such as applications and so on. What would Linux give you other than a huge headache, and inferior office suits writen in mind numblingly slow Java?

"Oh, by the way, as far as me hating Macs, you're full of shit. I like OSX, it's way better than OS classic, as it inherited much of NeXT, which I always lusted after. And anytime I get a complaint about the constant assault of viruses and trojans, and people ask my advice, know what I tell them? Simple. Buy a Mac"

That's nice. And what I was saying in my original post is that users tend to be more informed than you were suggesting (ie: Joe is going to drop 1-2K and so will AT LEAST look for a bit and get some idea of what he's getting into), and will invariably decide which computer to buy based on it's own merits.

BTW: I never just nievely tell people to "Buy Macs". I always find out what they're looking for, and try and match the platform to the personality and what they're trying to do. Some people have no choice and need to use Windows, for work for example. Others would really benefit of the Mac. It's never a one size fits all.

Re:Ahh, the old "you just hate Apple!" reply...

[Ohreally_factor]

Check the specs. There is no G3 eMac. They're G4 only, always have been.

They are killing the G4 prematurely...

[emil]

The G4 is finally introducing a memory interface that is significantly faster than PC133. Granted, it is no G5, but there is life in it yet.

Apple should maintain a relationship with the Motorola semiconductor unit. I don't think that Apple managed their dual-supplier relationship very well in the past (altivec), but adopting IBM as a single supplier now should frighten them. We've seen what IBM can do when it's angry.

Um...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're combining two very different ways of getting the battery replaced.
$100 gets Apple to fix it for you. No chance of ruining the iPod, you don't get your hands messy.
$55 buys you a battery with which to do it yourself.

Re:Um...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're combining two very different ways of getting the battery replaced.
$100 gets Apple to fix it for you. No chance of ruining the iPod, you don't get your hands messy.
$55 buys you a battery with which to do it yourself.

Right... which is why I said it was "$100 friggin dollars. Unless you're comfortable prying open a case..." In which case it would be $55.

If your going to quote Simpsons do it right!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

You got Bart and Lisa Mixed around. You misquoted the first line.

that explains it!

[PollGuy]

Yeah, but this article is different... I don't think they used the term beleagered once.

You're saying that "beleaguered" is not a part of Apple's full company name? Wow!

(credit where credit is due)

Re:Market share side note

[harvey_peterson]

Maybe I need to clarify my post. It was intended as a joke - not flaimbait.

It seems that this number always appears in these Apple Is Dead articles.

Oh well, I thought it was funny; though in retrospect maybe I need to get out more.

There is already an industry dedicated to that

[Ars-Fartsica]

but if Apple is making money on its investments and losing money on operations, wouldn't it make more sense to cease operations, wind up the business, and just make money on the investments? Is there some major financial concept I am missing here?

No, Citicorp, Vanguard and Merril Lynch already have mutual funds covered.

Added to which there is nothing to indicate that Apple's investments outperform other major investment instruments - we are in a market bubble after all, and practically everyone with money in the market over the last year has seen appreciating balances (not to be confused with making money, which only happens when you sell a security).

Apple should only become a financing operation if they can demosntrate that they are doing something different or better than the trillion-dollar industry already providing investments of every kind. My assumption is they aren't, and when Bubble2 ends, Apple will likely show losses on their investments.

Nonsense.

[jotaeleemeese]

That silly argument has been debunked innumerable times.

Apache vs. MS ISS for example.

Dell spends ~$118 million per quarter on R&D

[burnin1965]

I'm not a big Dell fan or anything, but I have noticed in their product offerings that they seem to do more than just assemble boxes. That being the case I suspected that in order for them to provide more advanced products than a simple assembled box they must be doing some R&D.

So I checked their last 10Q statement they filed with the SEC and discovered that Dell spends around $118 million each quarter on "Research, development and engineering".

burnin

Marketshare

[mbbac]

They do have a shrinking marketshare, but that doesn't mean they have reduced system sales. In recent years their sales of systems are up.

What happens when the party is over?

[Ars-Fartsica]

Every corporation is showing gains on investments. Apple is nothing special. What happens when the music stops and the market begins a long-term decline? My assumption is Apple's investments will go red like everyone else's. There is nothing to indicate their investments are exceptional...every corporation is getting a boost from the rising market and falling dollar.

Lets look from an Economics Standpoint

[Lord Haha]

Since its the objective to look at companies without personal bias to maximize your investments, I ask everyone to stop the whole I love/hate Apple syndrom and just look at the books.

Using data someone above used they said Apple makes roughly made $120 million last year. 50% from outside investments and interest on current cash, the other 50% from actual operations.... Now being a current busines student(www.smu.ca) we are being taught to look subjectively at this. First of all this is a Tech Company, therefor when looking at profitablity and financial worthyness we neglect all things that arent related to net operating profit. This is because everything else is considered only one time shots and are not are only there because of luck more or less....

Now we only have $60million to look at. With $4 Billion in the bank and lets say at least twice that in Equity(shops, inventory, equipment, Accounts Recievable...) We are looking at a company with around a $12 billion market cap...
In short this means return on Equity was 5% last year (roughly) I can do better putting my money in a Mutual Fund or elsewhere. This is where the company is dieing, its income that makes it a worthwhile investment is not within its sector, and unless they want to become a Holding company (which they seem to be doing at one level or another, ie: Pixar) The company isn't as good of an investment as someone else.

People will argue though but more macs are being sold, on the other hand I can probably here just as many stories at other institutes were macs are being taken out for Windblows or Linux. Ipod sales are skyrocketing: shortly enough we are going to reach a market saturation, and simply there will be everyone who wants one will have one, and all you are getting is some natural growth (consumers switching in, or just population growth) that will cut these sales drastically back - Think the dot.com bubble there was simply too many people for not enough market, things went to the shitter, this will not happen exactly the same but the ipod will become more of a staple Apple Product then the chique new toy effect it still has.

Back to actual business though, yes they are healthy, no debt is a good thing, but also that much money in the bank isnt a good thing. The money should be able to make a greater return on investment being used in operations not just sitting looking pretty. People could then say Microsoft has the same thing with over $30ish billion in the bank, but then again their market cap is bigger and some of the lawsuits they have on hand will take serious dents to it (think EU which could cost 10-20$ billion) Back to Apple though, having too much money in the bank is just as bad as being debt riddled, either situation means you arent taking advantage of what you have and letting things goto waste...

To sum up my potential ranting troll here, yes apple is healthy, but are they are profitable as they could be no, and thats where the key lies not healthy but profitable; Its the problem Sun had cash had a decent product but with market share dwindling they could continue to grow as market value but still be in a bad position.

AMEN!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've got several thousand dollars sitting in the bank, just waiting for the new G5s to be announced, and I am far from alone"

Amen.

I need a new powerbook; mine is 4 years old, but the G4 isn't enough of a jump. A G5 is overdue at this point. My wife was set to buy me the G4 15" PB, but I told her no, that it wasn't worth it for me.

But next xmas, a g5, 15"? Its mine.

Re:On a long enough time line the survival rate ..

[lamz]

I think that the original John Maynard Keynes quote is the best: "In the long run, we're all dead."

More Keynes quotes.

Re:Except that they don't make any profit on iTune

[the-banker]

You obviously have never been a VISA / MasterCard / AmEx merchant.

It is next to impossible to profitably conduct a VISA transaction for less than $1, particularly in an internet business where fraud incidence is higher (and therefore transaction fees are higher).

Every time a merchant accepts a credit card transaction, the associated CC network and affiliated Banks charge a fee. Normally this fee is X% of the purchase price, based on things like volume, risk, fraud, etc. The rub is that there is a minimum per-transaction fee (that varies from merchant to merchant).

The only way the iTMS makes money is if people purchase multiple songs in the same session. This is why Apple pushes things like Gift Certs and their "Allowance" packages so much - it allows them to process a single VISA transaction for 20 or 30 songs.

The network is such that a merchant purchases services from a CC Merchant Services vendor or a bank. The CC Merchant Svcs company must contract with a bank to have their transactions processed (only banks may directly transact with the VISA clearinghouse - which is a consortium of member banks). All of these networks need a cut, which is why low dollar credit card transactions are expensive. I know MasterCard operationally is almost identical to VISA, I am less sure about AmEx's model.

The bottom line is that for every single or two song transactions Apple conducts, they probably are losing money on the purchase.

The lamest troll since "It took 5 hours to upload"

[tres]

Right. This post makes absolutely no sense.

This has to be the lamest Apple troll I've read in a long time.

But I've got an extra minute to waste.

Anyone who had been running a mac & was looking for the cheapest upgrade certainly wouldn't be buying a PC; the cost of re-buying the software for the other platform breaks the "bargain basement" computer argument.

And $300 for a "gaming" system with Dreamweaver and Photoshop? Right. If you said you were running FreeBSD or Linux, I might even have believed you.

And who needs monitors? Who needs a Windows license? Who needs antivirus scanners? Who needs Spyware checkers? Yeah, man -- who needs all the other stupid things you have to buy in order to get Windows running right.

Yeah, you go fan boy.
Go back to troll school

You Can't Read This Unless You're Reading At -1

[Anonymous Coward]

***I Have Been Modded Down For Having An Unpopular Opinion***

Reading this thread at +4, I notice that EVERY SINGLE POST is one that disputes the "Apple is dying" story. It's obvious that believing in Apple's immortality and omnipotence is quite popular around here.

However, there's a difference between hope and reality. I, too, HOPE that Apple will stick around. But they may well become another BeOS crushed under the Microsoft boot. Why wouldn't they? Bigger and better companies have gone under faster than Apple's slow descent from their former glorious stature....

To arrogantly claim Apple is invincible, as so many here have done, is to invite certain disaster. Take the Apple name off their balance sheet, and they're just another company with 1.7% of the market who makes a good MP3 player that will certainly be copied by everyone until their advantage is gone and their marketshare is diluted by the masses of clones. I honestly don't know a single person with an iPod. I know 4 or 5 people who have other MP3 players. For many, the iPod is too expensive. For others, they don't need so much space. For others, the iPod is too big. For others, they don't like the fact that it has a hard drive instead of RAM because they're scared of dropping it and smoking it instantly. I see them on tv all the time, but never have in person yet. And trust me, I'm watching. I know maybe 5 people who use Macs. That's it, and I must know thousands of people. Think hard. Count your family and friends. Who's using Windows and who's got a Mac? Maybe in California everybody has a Mac that matches their handbag, but we normal people all use Windows. That's the way it is. But you wouldn't know that from the crowd here at Slashdot, who are so excited about their MP3s they've forgotten about GNU/Linux and that whole "freedom" thing. Who cares about freedom and all that crap? It's time to focus on what REALLY matters, and that's a cool playlist and allowing "the man" to rule us. It's okay, he's a nice ruler. Apple changed the Slashdot culture from revolutionaries to mass-market consumers. Big time.

Look at the recent Apple Accounting Scandal. This is the same sort of thing that caused Wall Street to kill Bre-X, Enron, WorldCom, Martha Stewart, Nortel, etc. If you think Apple's immune to the wrath of Wall Street, you're nuts. Without their shares being up, they don't have money to operate. They'll bleed to death, which they are doing anyway (but slowly). Apple burns through billions a year already, if profits stop coming in, they've got two years to get profitable before they're broke.

Look at ALL their lawsuits. Apple behave like the Republicans but without the immunity from prosecution. Apple has blatantly disobeyed the court order not to sell music. You guys love Apple, I know, but it's screwed to love a company so much that you'd sell out your ethics and ignore what's right and wrong for them.

Their profits are way down this year, what, 90% from what they were last year? Doesn't that make you think they're kind of a fad company based on hype? Dell and HP and IBM are slow and steady. Apple is a pump and dump. They pump up a new product with big splashy 2 hour long Stevenote Advertisements, then everyone buys their stuff, then it dies out because they refuse to update their lines more than once or twice a year. If I want to buy a PowerBook right now, I'm paying FULL PRICE for a computer they released last Aughust! AND at 1Ghz, it wasn't exactly bleeding edge back then! And if they rush the hopefully lifesaving G5PowerBooks out, they get a reputation for building crap (which they are slowly getting, as you would know if you thought about all the problems their products have been having recently). The biggest Web page artsy company in my town just switched to all-Windows for compatibility reasons, as well as cost (despite what the Mac freaks say), and the ability to order PCs with exactly what they want (NO FireWire, NO USB, NO glowy keybo

Re:You Can't Read This Unless You're Reading At -1

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for Apple monitoring various forum and newsgroup postings, including Slashdot. My job is to promote Apple's products to the best of my ability; to "astroturf", as they call it. I consider myself to be putting the best foot forward for my employer, arguing on their behalf against the people who have a grudge to bear. Everybody does it. Microsoft does it, Oracle and Sun watch other forums, even Cisco has guys writing "independent reviews" of their own products and running damage control. Authors write reviews of their own books on Amazon.com. So get off our backs. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

And by the way, we don't usually waste our moderator points on ACs. ACs like you are harmless. Nobody reads at zero anyway, so we focus on modding up or down "logged in" posters. Unless the article is specifically of interest, even we don't waste our time reading at 0 or 1.

Development tools, e.g. PalmOS

[code_rage]

What about development tools? Although there are some good signs (Xcode, Xgrid, X11), I still think that Apple needs to do a better job of supporting VARs and developers.

For example, Metrowerks CodeWarrior no longer supports PalmOS development on Mac. And PalmSource does not support the Palm Simulator on Mac. So, to do any serious development for PalmOS, you must get a PC running Windows.

Microsoft seems to understand that small developers are an important part of their base. I don't think Apple is doing enough.

Re:Development tools, e.g. PalmOS

[presearch]

Microsoft seems to understand that small developers are an important part of their base. I don't think Apple is doing enough...

Funny, I can't seem to find the free developer tools in my XP distribution..

Re:Development tools, e.g. PalmOS

[code_rage]

I didn't say free, I said that some tools aren't there at all. I used to scoff at people who would say "there's not as much SW for Mac as for PC". When it comes to certain tools, they have a point.

The question (and it is a valid one) is whether the tools that are Mac-only, Mac-cheaper or Mac-better (some multimedia production tools come to mind) sell enough Macs to offset the sales lost to VARs who just give up and embrace the dark side. My guess is no, if simply because the VARs don't just do SW development on the PC but they also obviously sell a whole raft of systems that run the custom apps they develop.

Apple needs WMA support in iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple eventually needs to add WMA support to the iPod if they want to scale its business in the long run. Look, we can all agree that AAC is probably a better format than WMA and it would be nice if everyone used it, but that is just not the case. They have stated that it is the iPod hardware, not the iTMS that makes them money, so that rules out licensing their protected AAC to their hardware competitors such as RIO, Creative, etc... Apple has apparently not tried to license protected AAC to other music stores either (which could increase demand for the iPod because of more content sources). At the end of the day they have to realize that although they are doing well now, and they do have an excellent product, they must think about building infrastructure that will support the business in the long run. The best option would be to add WMA support to iPod so it will not only be the device of choice for iTMS users, but for users of every other online music service as well.

1999

[nickovs]

"While Apple's sales of $6.2 billion last fiscal year were nearly unchanged from 1999, profits plummeted 90 percent to $69 million, from $601 million four years ago..."

Does anyone else here think that a tech company managing to deliver the same level of turnover, albeit at a reduced margin, as they did at the top of the dot.com bubble is bad going? Most vendors' turnovers dropped at the end of the boom and have been working their way back up since.

Why Win32 users won't switch.

[emil]

I own macs, pcs, linux and bsd systems. Just observing:

1. No PC user is going to shell out $130/year for OS upgrades. Rule of thumb is 3 year minimum. My most recent install is Win2000. A one year duration is wayyyy to much.
2. No PC user is going to switch when the old OSes aren't supported. Despite their threats, WinUpdate still releases patches for Win98. Where are my 10.[01] patches? Unbelieveably, Microsoft is the best for OS support longevity.

These are huge problems if Apple really wants "switchers." I don't think that they do.

But what about...

[WaterTroll]

...the new ipod?

I still use 9.2.2

[solios]

I still use 9 on my powerbook, which is a G3/400. I use OS X on all of my other systems, because all of my other systems have at least two montiors on them. OS X feels incredibly claustrophobic at 1024x768- about as claustrophobic as Classic feels at 512x384. Then there's the speed issues- X boots a hell of a lot faster, but the 9 finder is generally vastly more responsive. I use the powerbook for email and looking at pr0n with an old version of mozilla- aside from that it's basically a hard drive to lug things between work and home.

I still use classic on all of my OS X machines, but it's only for photoshop. I can live with the rest of my applications no longer windowshading- but that and a trillion other issues of the OS X gui reach out and rape me in the face every time I try to use Photoshop 7 or CS (and nevermind the interface issues Adobe has introduced into the product since Days of Old).

same song different verse

[catdevnull]

Why is this news? People have been predicting the demise of Apple for more then 10 years now.

I think Apple's business strategies are working--they have no debt and cash in the bank. Every other tech company copies what they do. So--what excactly is it that they're doing wrong?

Say it AIN'T so, Moe...

[Anonymous Coward]

(...and Larry and Curly)

Apple is DYING. The sky is falling.

Again!

OMG what ARE we to do?

Um Maybe They Should Take a Marketing Class?

[greymond]

For the record I hate most Apple Fans, the same way I hate Linux Fans, and WIndows Fans there usually onesided and think their favorite app is god's gift to the world.

However, this is a pretty lame ass article. I don't like the iPods (for various reasons) but they ARE a great little machine and very popular. Looking around the office I see 4 people atm who have one on there desk, I know 3 freinds that own one, and at school I see them all over the place. So even if Apple lost some money on these in the first year or two they now have there name ALL OVER THE PLACE. This is basically Marketing 101, you get your name out there at any cost, eventually it comes back to you, this is why companies will spend $1+ on superbowl commercials. It's also why in San Jose if you buy any new 04 VW you get an iPod for free.

Now iTunes. I don't know anyone who uses this, as most still use Kazaa for any thing they want. However if I recall correctly there was a /. article in the past talking about X amount of music downloaded in the first day or something, and from what I remember it was a fairly large number. The thing is this is a new service, and if it has lost money, well it's only been out for a year and most business as a rule of thumb don't see a profit for 3 years, it takes 1 the first year to work on doing whatever it takes to get the name out, the second year your more known and the name really starts to be branded at that point, then the third year is when you actually have enough of a customer base that you start breaking even and/or seeing a profit.

Anyway, all in all, Apple over the last 4 years has really gotten their name out, and made a huge difference. I think their really starting to gain a larger market share because of these endeavors, and in the next year or two I expect to see them raking in a lot of money.

Re:Um Maybe They Should Take a Marketing Class?

[ThousandStars]

...$1+ on superbowl commercials.

I hear ya -- I spent $8 on my last Superbowl commerical.

On a more serious note, I agree with the rest of your post. I don't own a Mac, but since a friend who used to need help all the time bought an iBook, I haven't heard jack. The name's out, I see their laptops in every Starbucks I've ever entered, and they get attention on slashdot.

wtf!!!!!!

[Ravenrage]

I actually go to rtfa and even using google cache I can't. wtf.

iPod is the Apple-lifestyle-leader

[lysium]

So here is a product that is successful in exactly the way that Apple intended: it is penetrating the market for Windows users as well as Apple users.

Apple's stated goal is to use the iPod/iTunes combination to introduce PC users to the OSX interface, and the Macintosh philosophy in general. Once they are familiarized they will hopefully purchase a Mac and fully enter the Apple lifestyle. If Windows users just purchase an iPod, Apple's profits will be negligible. There would not be 'red ink flowing like blood,' but there would not be any revenue growth, either.

Check the web, the words practically fell from Steve Job's mouth.

===---===

Re:iPod is the Apple-lifestyle-leader

[aclarke]

This certainly worked for me. We bought a 5GB iPod for my wife, and kept saying how nice it would be to have an Mac to work it with. Now I'm typing this on a 12" Powerbook, with a 30GB iPod in the bag. I love this powerbook and Mac OS X so much that I've convinced 2 other people to go out and buy 15" powerbooks.

So all I an say is that this strategy worked for me!

another indication that Apply is dying

[hak1du]

is its user community: anybody who says that Apple is less than perfect is moderated as a "Troll". That kind of blind zealotry in its user community usually happens with companies that are in serious trouble. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Why I want Apple to die.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know there are a lot of apple fans. I know they wear it on their sleaves. But Apple dying will be good thing. Microsoft knows that they can't control 100% of the market. If they can keep the 3% of the folks in a company that still supports Microsoft Office and have them use internet explorer, then that's a good way to keep those people in a nice safe, out of the way place. If Apple fanatics woke up one day with their favorite company in Chapter 11, then that would force them to make a decision: to forsake computers, join Windows or or join Linux.

Most at the end of the day would bow to the penguin. Most apple folk aren't "hacker" types. They are arty types that enjoy being "alternative". They won't contribute much technically to Linux, but their demand for easy to use and speical purpose applications would help Linux. If they sign up, it would be a good thing.

Apple fans, the day of reckoning is coming. The critical third party support will die one day. Seeing the apple logo on a laptop in movie or viewing a cute commerical can't stop the death spiral that's coming. It may make you feel "alternavtive" and "cool"; but it's not gonna solve the problem.

The bottom line is open standards are good enough of to survive in the computer world these days. You don't need a proprietary jail to get things done in. You can plug just about any device you want on to the internet and it doesn't matter if it has the Apple logo or not.

When the day comes, what are you going to do?

Re:Scary orchestra

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you meant "voila." Unless of course, producing a stringed instrument from the violin family is a portent. Interesting theory. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
: )

I completely agree

[Anonymous Coward]

If Windoze is such an unusable POS, why do I have no trouble doing the things I want to? I don't get virii, trojans or the like. I have no compatibility problems with the accessories I choose to use and I rarely have problems with the software I use.

I realize Macs do some things better, but damnit, PCs do other things better.

Of course, this whole f'ing article was posted just to get the Apple zealots some face time.

Film FX

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I've heard from my industry contacts, a couple of large studios are considering shifting large aprts of their production workstations to macs. Reasons cited included familiarity for the artists, plays well with PCs and Unix/Linux, and also the support of vendors like Adobe.

Hold On Apple!!

[Coltman]

I'm saving up to by my first apple! Only 10 years to go!! Just 10 more years apple, You can do it!!

Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a US phenomina. It is not strong anywhere else in the world, because everywhere else in the world cannot afford the 'exclusive club' mentality.

Re:Wrong

[MoneyT]

Obviously you've never seen the longest line

If that isn't being strong I don't know what is.

Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[Paradox]

... but I get a bit tired of this. On a desktop, use whatever mouse you like best. On a laptop, just USE THE FSCKING MODIFIER KEY!. When you're using that touchpad, your hands are already all where they should be.

It's really, really, really not that bad. Give yourself 20 minutes, you adjust. Hell, I'm used to a touchstream, which is even crazier than your whizbang mouse, and I can adjust.

I'm perfectly happy to suffer ever so slightly with a one button mouse and a modifier (or long) click. My alternative is to suffer greatly with a windows laptop (god noooo!) or maintain greatly for a less attractive linux setup (that may or may not work graphically, yes Xfree is pretty good these days but it still does happen, even with new hardware).

And in the final-worst-uberbad-case, PLUG IN A MOUSE. If you're doing mouse-intensive stuff like gaming or visual GUI construction, you probably would be more hung up by the touchpad itself, rather than the lack of extra mouse button.

Re:Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[mlrtime]

For the laptop case you are asking people to accommodate, but why should they have to? I'm a recent switcher from a long list of ThinkPad's to a 12" G4PB. As much as I like the PowerBook, nothing annoys me more than the touchpad. It will never be as efficient to use as a trackpoint, ever.

I've had the PB for about 6 months now, and I've never tried to teach myself so many keyboard shortcuts (which in the long run could be better.) If Apple ever made a PB with a trackpoint I will be the first on the list.

Re:Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[bluekanoodle]

I, on the other hand, can't stand the trackpoint on the Thinkpads. I think its terribly innefficient and clumsy compared to a trackpad.

I guess the point is that you can never make everybody happy.

Re:Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[mlrtime]

sure you can have both.

Re:Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[bluekanoodle]

Except that I constantly find my clumsy fingers nudging the trackpoint when I type. Even disabling it doesn't help, because I still find the little protrusion in the middle of the keyboard annoying. Granted, thats a small quibble, but frustrating none the less.

Re:Okay, I know we're all power users here...

[TWX]

(yes, I saw your other post down a bit too)

I have a trackpoint eraser-head type pointer on my Toshiba Satellite 1755. I like it. It's positioned so that I don't have to move very far to use it, is centered right between the hands (I'm left handed), is only about a millimeter higher than the G, H, and B keys around it so that it doesn't get in the way while typing, and the buttons below the spacebar aren't on a right/left setup, they're stacked forward and back, the primary being closer to the spacebar and the secondary farther away. The scroll buttons are also easy to get to without much movement. It works quite well in this setup. All that I have to do is move my left hand one inch to the right and the resulting tendons and ligaments pull the thumb down to the buttons and the index finger to the pointer.

I also have a trackball (center layout for the ball, not a thumb control) for when I need more buttons. It works.

I can't stand trackpads. They feel inefficient because they have borders. Trackballs just roll until the cursor reaches the desired location, and the eraser-head types work as a joystick. I stopped using regular mice for the same reason that I don't like trackpads- I don't want to have to pick up in the middle of directing the cursor to reposition.

Wow. That was a lot longer than I thought it would be.

M$ is weak!

[whittrash]

Market share of what? All computers sold in a year? Follow that logic, if M$ has a slight decline in server market share that would mean they are dead! Don't get me wrong, market share is important, but not as important as making $$$$$. Also, Apple has a very strong and cool brand that many companies would kill for. It is way cooler to have an Apple product than a M$ product. Apple has a much better design ethic and produce much better products. M$ may be able to crank out technically workable gear but they got no sizzle, no funk...and therefore they suck.

As far as the ipod being a failure...what crack smoking fool thought that one up! It is the hottest player out there. It may well be true that the margins are not the same as other players, but being the best rarely means you crank out cheap crap you sell for a high price, it usually means you have the best goods.

This sounds like M$ FUD to me. They are all freaked out because Mac is taking over the music business, giving them an edge in the home user market. That threatens the M$ music and video technology. This all makes M$ look like a loser and nobody likes a loser. Apple makes M$ look bad.

Down but not quite out

[jfaughnan]

I do agree that Apple seems to have lost focus on its desktop lines. Some of that may be simply very tough luck; I think a G5 neo-cube could be a big seller (note how well the PC mini-boxen are doing), but an energy efficient G5 mb is still not available. I suspect a lot of folks, like me, are waiting for a lower cost, more efficient, G5 solution.

I'd love to see Apple be daring. It feels like they have the technology in place to implement a home and SOHO thin client solution with a media server and a range of clients running remote-Quartz (Linux clients, Apple clients, PC clients, etc) remote sessions. This is what many of us thought Microsoft would do with XP and their remote desktop technology, but it didn't happen.

I think that would be a potentially disruptive move. I think Microsoft will succeed (no-one dislikes this more than me) in making XP/NET/IE6+ a mandatory part of everyone's life -- so we'll all have to have at least one of those boxen in our homes. Being able to use it to primarily run Apple software in thin client mode would be some nice ju-jitsu.

Apple has never been in a "safe place". They've made some horribly dumb moves, but their survival indicates they haven't done everything wrong all the time. Here's hoping they can pull off some more miracles!

Crunching numbers, was - Re:I do love Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a combination of not having the system you *really* wanted along with a poor investment strategy. I myself had fallen to this, much like you had.

First, let's look at your old 9600. I'm guessing it's a 9600/300, much like the one I got. New, with monitor, was something like $2000+ and if you waited ... oh, 8 months, you could have bought a G3 (I know, that was a kick in the pants!). And I agree, you can only upgrade it so far until the upgrades start getting more expensive than a new system.

So you, at one point in time, bought a $2000 Mac system. Let's say you then spent ... $200 upgrading it? Figure you probably got 128MB RAM DIMMs for that sucker, considering you've got 12! slots for it. So let's make it more like $300 in upgrades.

Then let's add $1,000 for Photoshop and $400 on Dreamweaver.

Here's how you could have done it. Sell your old 9600/300 for about $200, 'cause that's about how much you could get for it.
Enroll in a city college course for a semester (sorry about cheating the system here for the educational discount). Now let's buy a decent Mac with your money: 1.6Ghz G5 (because we all know it's not *ALL* about the processor speed), 1 Gig of RAM, 80gb SATA drive, DVD-RW, ATI Raedon 9600, internal bluetooth (just for the hell of it), annnnd... you've got yourself a damn good Photoshop/Dreamweaver/(mac)game machine for under $2000. Add the *ENTIRE* Adobe suite for $390 (educational discount), Dreamweaver for $100... still under $2500 including selling your old machine. You've got a current, modern Mac with *fully* legal software, DVD burning, etc. And, you'll have the Firewire 800, USB 2.0, hardware you won't have to keep replacing because it fails on you, an actual warranty, gigabit ethernet (not that I think you'll use it), etc.

If you were like me, and really wanted to go on the cheap for a damn good OS X system, I went with the Apple Education Loan last year while they still offered the "180 days same as cash", sold my 9600/300, and simply spent $300/month buying machine without ever having to pay interest. And got the Adobe Creative suite. And bought both a replacement 120gb & 250gb Maxtor HD. And upgraded to a gig of RAM.

Ya see, it's not all about the systems itself. It's about how you buy them and what you do with them.

Nobel Prize winners use Macs

[olafo]

Dr Osheroff, the Stanford Nobel Prizewinning Physicist (who served admirably like a Richard Feynman clone according to Adm. Gehman on the NASA Columbia Accident Investigation Board) gave several lectures I attended at our local university. I was not surprised to see he used a Mac and was a keen and competent Mac lover. I wonder what percentage of Nobel Prize winners use Macs in their everyday research. I'd guess a much larger proportion than most might expect.

Do you know how I know you're a geek?

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Because only a geek could possibly type the following:

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q =beleaguered">beleagered</a>

Re:Do you know how I know you're a geek?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now THAT'S comedy! :D

Simple Way to Save Apple

[Listen Up]

Lower the cost of your f*cking computers. There are roughly a billion people out there who wish they were using Apple hardware, but either do not have the funds or do not wish to spend $2000 more for an Apple computer that they could get equally with a PC.

SysAdmins and toys

[Genady]

The other quesion that this all raises is - what makes you think that this is ANY different than all the sysadmins who love linux/unix and have done so for years?

First, yes there are SysAdmins that swear by Linux on Intel. I know several. They spend time tinkering with their set-up to get it 'just right' have spam assassin and proc mail and a bajillion other little things that they 'have' to have. No question.

However, I also know SysAdmins that could give a rip about dealing with all of Linux's little gotchas. Sleep and network handeling (after sleep) come immediately to mind. Bottom line, as has been stated MANY times before... Linux beats everything for TCO if you time is worthless. Try installing an RSS reader on Linux, you've either got to go through the configure, make, make install hastle, or find the RPM, make sure you're libraries are up to date and install from there. If you're really lucky you can just emerge the package and pooft there it is. Try it on a Mac. Double click the installer, drag from disk image to hard drive. Done. How do you uninstall it? Drag it to the trash.

The value in Macs isn't in the hardware (though the quietness of the G5 is very impressive) it's in the OS. There's power under there, but for the most part you don't HAVE to pull back the covers to get something to work. *THAT'S* the segment that the Mac is making inroads with in the Technoarti realm. The people, like me, that say: "I work on computers all day long, I fight with vendors and libraries, and users. I want a machine that *JUST WORKS*, I don't want to fuck around with sendmail.cf on my own fuckin' laptop!

You'd be surprised how many SysAdmins (the Elders I'm thinking) have this view.

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[jsebrech]

You'd be surprised how many SysAdmins (the Elders I'm thinking) have this view.

I think it's a sad reflection on the state of the IT industry that sysadmins don't like to sysadmin. This is not a criticism of sysadmins. Too little effort and research is going into making computers more useful as a tool, rather than an occupation. I'm not even convinced computers save most companies money. The loss of work involved with the headaches computers produce is stupendously large. I'm sure in a lot of businesses it outstrips whatever benefit computers bring to the table.

Ofcourse, microsoft has zero interest in actually doing anything about this situation. Messing with the status quo is an unacceptable risk for them. I wish I could have hope for open source to make things better, but they seem to be making it worse. Apple is the only company who has been genuinely interested in allowing users to get things done, and even they are slipping, with OS X being a milestone in usability, in the wrong direction.

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[aristotle-dude]

No it's not. It is a sad state of affairs if IT people cannot have lives outside of their work or cannot keep their private lives separate from their work. It is actually quite healthy for an IT person to not want to sysadmin when they get home from work. This helps prevent nervous breakdowns and helps promote a healthy social life. Maybe that is a bit of an alien concept to some /. readers. :)

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux beats everything for TCO if your time is worthless."

This is ether the words of a misinformed person or someone that has not been exposed to Linux in few years.

I run Linux all the time, and I consider my time extremely important. I have run a web server and currently use sendmail as my mail server, I also run FTP, Samba, NSF, and an assortment of other servers. most of them were setup with a point and click interface, and non of them have had any down time. For the ones that I did not use a Point-and-click interface for ie. sendmail, they worked right off of my install, only minor configuration required, all graphical.

I work regularly on Linux, MS 2000, MS XP, OS9 and OS X I wouldn't give up Linux for the world. I too want a machine that "JUST WORKS" and I have have no problem saying Linux does that, sure it gives you a lot of freedom to tinker, and I have a machine set up just for that, but my main machine I want a desktop GUI OS that just works, and currant Linux does just that out of the box because when it comes down to it I have very little education/traning when it come to unix-like OS's.

As far as tinkering goes, the company I work for recently installed brand new G5 OS X servers to handle file sharing (through samba and apple share), mail and groupware software. over the last six month my IT dept. has fought on a daily basis with the new servers to get them to 1. work like they are suppose to work and 2. run as a stable server. In both cases the OS X was not up to the challenge, our servers go down almost on a daily basis and most computers ( both Mac and wintel alike) were unable to connect into the file servers. About a month ago the functions were moved over to Linux servers using extra hardware we had lying around were setup mostly using point-and-click interfaces, over a matter of two days, only proprietary software was left on the OS X servers. Immediately following the move all computers, Mac (OS 9 and OS X) and Wintel were able to connect in to the file server and the servers have yet to go down. My IT department now is able to deal with employee issues and small problems because our new Linux servers "JUST WORK" and as far as IT and Accounting Departments are concerned that both time and money saved.

I will give you that installing many programs under Linux can require a bit of knowledge about the CLI but not all, I recently installed Americas Army by clicking on the install icon, and to uninstall it I can simply drag the folder to the trash, I have also found that there are some programs that require the use of the CLI under OS X to install I have done this on many occasions for coworkers.

I work for a newspaper, an institution that has classically been a Mac workshop, but many news agencies are finding that Apple is not up to many tasks they require especially when it comes to servers, many are moving to Linux because of cost and because their IT departments have the know how to get servers running fast and efficiently. So before you make uneducated statements, try downloading a currant Linux distro and trying it out, and try putting a little research into your statements because Yes indepth Linux use does require that the user learn about the OS and it's programs.

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[sdmacguru]

Yeah, that's 'current' not 'currant', first off. My OS X web-surfing app can spellcheck my posts to slashdot, can your linux box do that? Then why didn't you?

And I also have some problems with your assertion that Mac OS X servers crashed daily. I'm not reading that anywhere else, do you have anything to back it up? I mean, seriously, our servers here are limited in uptime by the anal-retentive nature of my supervisor and the release of software updates, no crashing. Ever.

How many of your sysadmins have been to Apple-certified training classes? How many OS X books do they have in their department? I smell the smell of Windows administrators being asked to buy Apple servers because the graphics folks insisted on it, not because the IT department understood what problem they were solving.

who am I kidding, this is just another AC troll. Shouldn't have wasted my time.

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[tf23]

I'm not even convinced computers save most companies money

I think most places save money (or earn money back) against their IT investment because:

• They're nearly always short on the IT staff they need
• The benefit of the computers, office software, email, laser printers/copiers/scanners/faxes is that it saves them on staffing. ex: You can get by with one secretary, instead of 4.
• The cost of the h/w is written off as an expense, and w/ the "increased productivity" that cost is seen as a necessary evil. Just as we are, the IT staff, sometimes :(

Re:SysAdmins and toys

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes my Linux box can spell check in browser, and I did run the spell check, unfortunately "currant" is a real word and like many spell check programs it doesn't know which word I mean similar to: two, too, to, I know that even Mac's and Wintel machines have issues catching mistakes like that. So for that mistake you can chalk that one up to me not knowing the differences between the times and the fruit.

I never said that all Mac servers crash all the time I said the ones my company use crashed all the time and after our server readjustment it would appear that the reason for the crashes was that we were using them to network together multiple OS's.

Most of my companies sysadmins are apple trained, as far as certified I cant say, but as far as being a windows work shop being forced into Mac, as I stated before we are a newspaper that has been primarily Mac (server and client) for years and now due to spending cutback we are switching to a mixed wintel/Mac environment, before moving some of our servers to Linux the servers were all Mac and the workstations are both mac and Wintel, oddly enough the graphics and photo are the ones switching to the Wintel machines, by their request, other departments are using G5, interestingly before we added the Linux boxes in as a liaison between the servers and clients the Mac workstations were having more issues connecting to the servers than were the Wintel Machines. Again this is the experience my Company had, Iv heard of many success stories using G5 servers, though most seem to not be a mixed OS environment where 5 different OS's are trying to connect in, as far as server downtime is concerned even the "Apple Certified Experts" that were brought in under the service contract my company signed when purchasing the new hardware were unable to get our servers working as they had been promised to work. They were working on it for nearly two months. Because of the money lost because of the new servers by the publishing company I work for many people have also lost their jobs and most everyone has received a pay cut withing the last two months.

The point of my post was not to troll though reading it again I admit that I let myself get a little hot headed and I apologizes for that. I personally feel that Mac OSX is a fine OS. My point was that the opinions that Mac OSX need much less work than Linux does is an old argument that shows a lack of experience with a currant Linux system, therefore I offered my own opinion base on my experience with the latest OSX and Linux and tried to give true account of my own experiences.

And as far as typing my original post as AC at the time of the post I did not have an active account due to my email being down (MSN) I was unable to get my password.

Market share figures are misleading

[NtroP]

In my school district we still have entire labs using NuBus PowerPC Macs. They're, what, almost 10 years old? Guess how many 10 year old PCs we are using... Right.

We REPLACE PCs every 4 years or less on average. When we buy new PCs we are usually surplussing the old hardware. When we buy Macs we are generally ADDING TO our inventory.

So if you just look at our "market share" it would appear that PCs have 2-3 times the market share. In reality, they only have a small fraction.

My PC using friends are constantly upgrading/replacing their PCs (which they can, because the hardware is cheap and ubiquitous). To the bean-counting dweebs, each new purchase counts as "new market share" when in reality, they don't have ANOTHER PC they've replaced their original one.

I'm not saying that there aren't many more PC's in use than Macs, what I am saying is that Macs tend to be used for far longer (than I think they should be) so the stats appear skewed. One of my personal clients is still using an LCIII for cryin' out loud! Last week we actually had a color-classic in for repair. I wonder how many 286's are still in daily use today?

Remember, there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics!

Not exactly...

[MadAnthony02]

OTOH the worms running around now primarily infect computers through user error ... But, since it depends on a user downloading, extracting, and running something

I suppose that's true for netsky, bagle, ect. But Welchia/Nachi and Blaster (which caused and are still causing HUGE problems on the network of the college I work at, and don't require any action on the part of the user beyond not patching their systems. I think OSX does a little better job of pushing patches out via automatically scheduled software updates than MS, but it really a matter of how quickly the OS supplier updates patches and pushes them to the user.

You're a fool, and here's why.

[Anonymous Coward]

You piss and moan about proprietary jails. You mean like MAPI, and .DOC?

Apple supports opens standards. You want to talk proprietary, talk to Microsoft. You can plug any device into the internet these days and have it work because of open standards like TCP/IP. Microsoft wants to pollute the internet with shit like ActiveX and whatnot to make it Windows-centric, instead of platform-agnostic the way it was designed.

If you like open standards, you should be rooting for Apple to succeed, not die, moron.

Re:You're a fool, and here's why.

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent post is not implying that Apple invented TCP/IP, by the way.

Death of Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that some people are hell bent on seeing the destruction of Apple? I mean what is it to them that Apple no longer operates? Do they suddenly become smarter?

Apple, despite of its relative size, is a big force in technology. How can Microsoft "innovates" without Apple? Will you see the current growth of legal music download? Would you have had it easy with USB adoption? In fact, the tech world will be much poorer without Apple, especially when MS can operate at will. The only thing that prevents widespread WMA adoption right now is AAC from Dolby, adopted by Apple. Apple, healthy and being around, is a good thing even if you don't use any of their products.

What will the world without Apple be like? Will you live in such world? It completely baffles me that some people want to be Microsoft's bitches or slaves so bad.

Buy a Mac

[Genady]

(from http://www.dmin.net/entropy/archives/000286.html)

This is an open letter to all the friends and family that back me into corners at family gatherings, or try to call me late in the evening seeking help with a computer problem. Do us both a big favor and go buy a Mac.

When a member of 'the family' knows something about a technical subject the rest of the family turns to that person for advice. I can accept that. I have no problem offering advice. I have watched my father diplomatically give advice on automobiles (he is a mechanic) for more than thirty years now. Yes, sometimes you can get some free service; it all depends on the schmoozing. The best line I ever learned from my father is: "Sounds like it really needs some work, bring it by the shop tomorrow and I'll be happy to look at it." The connotation here being that he'll work on it at work. That usually throws the cheapskates off.

I don't fix personal computers for a living or I'd use the same line. I'm a System Administrator, and while servicing desktop windows machines is part of my job on occasion, for the most part I deal with large servers and institutional workstations, i.e. not something that has the latest version of 'Deer Hunter' on it. Even so, yes I CAN work on PC's, however, I work on computers all day long and really would prefer to NOT do that all night as well. Well, okay, so I'd prefer to work on my OWN computer at night.

Make both of our lives easier, as well as help me deal with those embarrassing pauses in conversation at family functions and buy yourself a Mac rather than a PC. I guarantee you'll be happier and if you have problems I'll be more willing to help you.

You see, what the sales person at Dell, or Best Buy, or CompUSA isn't telling you is what you get with that wonderfully less expensive PC. They don't tell you about the mountains of marginally compatible or functioning software. They don't tell you about the flood of Internet spyware programs that are out there that will make your PC unstable. They don't tell you about the legion of virus writers out there, right now, that want to turn your nice, inexpensive PC into a gateway for unsolicited e-mail. They don't tell you about the bouncing around you'll get from the manufacturer about support.

Yes, it is true that Macs cost more than the el-cheapo special at Best Buy. It's also true that in three years you can sell your Mac for a reasonable sum on EBay, while you won't be able to donate the PC to your schools because it's so out of date. Yes it's true that there's less of a selection of software for Macs, but how many $10 software titles that aren't worth the CD's their printed on do you need? Yes, Macs don't have the breadth of games available, but if you're buying a computer based solely on the availability of games wouldn't you be better off buying an XBox? Yes, maybe even Macs are a bit slower, but you don't buy a Corvette and drive at 120 miles per hour do you? What do you need with that speed? As long as it keeps up with you what's the issue?

Here's the thing, I know it's been said before, but it can't be stressed enough, Macs just work. Do you have any idea the hoops you have to jump through to get a slightly out of date, or a slightly ahead of it's time piece of equipment working with Windows? It can be a nightmare. With a Mac, as long as you've bought something that says it will work with a Mac, you just plug it in and go. Unless your children are going to be Computer Scientists there's no real reason that they HAVE to HAVE a PC at home. 'Because that's what the schools use,' is not a good excuse. Do you know WHY the schools use PC's? Because Dell gives them a BIG discount and schmooze the school administrators.

So if after all of this you still feel like you need to buy that Best Buy el-cheapo job I'll give you this last bit of advice: Add in the cost of a Linksys firewall, the latest Norton Anti-Virus (remember that that anti-virus cost is a YEARLY fee), the hours of frustration you're g

No, it's not

[bonch]

It's based on Mach, with some BSD userland stuff thrown in.

Re:No, it's not

[jjares]

Actually, it's a combination of both

Re:No, it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

No, ignore the article, you cannot combine a microkernel with a solid/semisolid one, some of the userland and some services (as in kernel services, not unix services) are FBSD derived but the kernel is pure Mach/Next and frankly mindboggling why people continue to distribute the other FUD.

(Apple==sell, SCO==buy)==WTF????

[mojoNYC]

lately (well at least before last week), many analyi$t$ have been recommending SCO as a 'Buy,' so this should tell you something...

i find it hard to believe that these Wall $treet analy$tS have any shred of credibility left anymore--not counting the last few years scandals (Enron and MCI were analyst darlings, the disgrace of Jack Grubman and Mary Meeker, among others)...

oh, wait, Martha Stewart was indicted, so that means they've cleaned up Wall Street!;>

Only on Slashdot :)

[bonch]

Yet again, only on Slashdot can:

- Apple putting out a mind-blowing GUI on top of a UNIX-like system (Slashdotters claim not to like it yet rip-off the Aqua theme endlessly for KDE)
- Apple having massive sales of iPod/iPod Minis
- Apple vanquishing all debt
- Apple executive announcing plan to increase billions of dollars for company
- Apple innovating with Expose, OpenGL rendering backend for 2D GUI, Apple actually INCREASING performance with each OS X update ...equate to "nothing can save Apple because Apple is dying." :) As far as I can tell, Apple is doing everything right. Is it possible Apple might see some sort of revival in the time up to Longhorn? Think of how many people would buy Apples if they were lowered even just as much as $200-300...

Re:Only on Slashdot :)

[Anonymous Coward]

But it takes Apple to *vanquish* debt. Slashdot just kinda waddles its way out of it. :)

This guy is still counting...

[sjonke]

death watch

Re:This guy is still counting...

[Cyph]

So if my calculations are correct (and they usually aren't, I got a B in Elementary Algebra), there's approximately 287 days left until Apple dies. That's pretty pessimistic!

Oh, no! - Apples going out of business AGAIN!

[Anonymous Coward]

These stories were old ten years ago. If you're worried, don't buy their stuff, otherwise, I am tired of hearing it.

Personally, I think M$ has far bigger problems. Governments and municipalities are dropping them list a hot potato. And as more do so, it will be harder for them to force standards down everyone's throats. Sure, you can have formats that require their software, but as more groups jump ship, you will have better support for open standards. People will then be more willing to and/or forced to interact with other software and standards. Once people figure out that there are other games in town, why would anyone in their right mind go back to a company that's been strong arming them for years.

Yeah, Apple's going out of business AGAIN. Oooh, I am sooo worried.

Beleaguered!

[jkent]

So what's really happening is that Apple is writing up a story every quarter or so about how they're failing, on their last legs, sounding the death rattle, and of course, being the perennial passive object of beleaguering... then letting their rabidly loyal customers write hundreds of pages of rebuttals on every discussion board out there!

You know the drill...
1)
2)
3) Profit!!!!

IBM will live forever?

[davids-world.com]

Well, since you're quoting IBM -- this company was at the brink of death in the early nineties. IBM was a giant but blown-up, strong but immobile elephant. Company procedures and employee attitudes where about to kill it. I can recommend Lou Gerstner's book Who Says Elephants Can't Dance?... Gerstner took over as CEO back then and is responsible for IBM's successful turnaround. But that doesn't mean its success will last forever...

Re:IBM will live forever?

[Flywheel]

Big blue has been at the brink of death severel times.

Speaking of the cost of addons...

[twofidyKidd]

I went looking at iPods online today and I noticed that their price point for accessories and addons actually drives their price point on the iPod itself. For instance, I started with the intention of buying a 15 gig iPod for approx. $300, but then as I moved through the online store, I got to a point where they offer accessories. It got me thinking about what came with the 15 versus the 20 gig iPod and there are at least 2 of the 3 additions on the 20 gig iPod package that I would have bought that weren't included in the 15g package. The additions, plus tax, to my total price now put me in a position to buy the 20g iPod package for the same price (essentially). So now I'm looking at a larger capacity iPod with more accessories, for the same price as the lower capacity iPod and less accessories. And it gets worse because now going from the 20g pod package, and adding another 2 accessories with tax, now puts you in position to buy the 40g iPod package...

They obviously planned this carefully, because I think if you are looking at iPods in the first place, then the money isn't enough of a substantial issue for a move from $300 to $500. So at very little cost and effort from Apple, they've essentially priced their products in such a way that if you're really looking to buy one, you're going to go for the gold, and shell out the additional $$$.

Is Apple dying? Quite possible, but from all indications, not anytime soon.

Re:Speaking of the cost of addons...

[Anonymous Coward]

$500

I built my last computer for around that. I'm not paying that much money for any portable music player, much less one that locks me into Apple (cue the Mac apologists talking about the HP offering and how Apple shit is a better value).

Is Apple dying?

Yes. Microsoft will die, too. Both companies are far too narrow in the scope of what they do. Both companies rely on a certain amount of lock-in to keep people coming to their products, and both have real flaws in their products that are going to destroy them. For Microsoft that flaw is Windows. Windows won't ever last because Microsoft programmers can't secure it, can't lock it down against viruses, and can't find a balance between usability for power users and ease of use for newbies. For the newbies, there are easy to use Linux distributions that match Windows. For the power users, there are Linux distributions and BSDs to choose from, tailored to any purpose you can think up. Microsoft has to recoup their costs on Windows. The Linux distributions and the BSDs don't have any comparable costs. Windows and any software or hardware that depends on it will fall. Apple's problem is the cost of its computers. There'll reach a point where there are no more newbies with computers. People won't need their hands held in their computer use, and people won't pay the Apple premium when they can get comparable use for much less money. Apple and Microsoft both don't have anywhere to go once their flagships fall.

Re:Speaking of the cost of addons...

[Just Some Guy]

I'm not paying that much money for any portable music player, much less one that locks me into Apple

I'd never pay that much to be locked into a particular vendor, either. Good thing that iPods can sync against MacOS, Windows, and (most recently) Unix, and that they can play both Apple's proprietary files and MP3s. Whew, dodged a bullet with that one, didn't they?

Where are the firmwhere extensions?

[Standfast]

When I bought my iPod, I assumed I would find a small industry of homegrown software extensions to add features to the iPod's UI. For example:

• Add an option that stores the last-played position in every song I've stopped playing, so I can go back to that place immediately (especially useful for those 2-hour livesets and classical pieces)
• Better (more than one; permanently stored) "on-the-go" playlists
• "Lock volume" function to prevent blasting my ears when I don't hit the center button hard enough, thereby suddenly raising the volume by mistake instead of skipping forward in the song
• Gazillions of other better ideas for extensions

... but alas, I don't see anyone offering extensions or 3rd party firmware updates. Pretty sad -- the result of a conscious decision by Apple to keep the iPod firmware closed?

-David.

It Would Suck If Apple Died

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you really like to give Microsoft a larger market share than it already has? Think about it...

Also, Apple would be selling alot more stuff if they dropped their prices a little - right into the realm of being affordable for people other than bank robbers.

Never mind the article...

[Steve Cowan]

have you got a link to any good pr0n?

how hard would it be to

[Fortun L'Escrot]

give an iPod wireless capabilities so that it would 1) distribute files to other iPods "sans fils" 2) synchronize with other iPods so they all play the same song at the same time and depending on who in that particular configuration is designated as DJ etc etc the other iPods follow suit. im sure someone else has thought about this.

Innovative: What have you done lately?

[AHumbleOpinion]

I'm going to guess, yeah that is risky, that what the original poster was trying to say is that with respect to computers only they are becoming less and less innovative over time, that the great revolutions and insights happened in the past, and that now they are now making incremental improvements and turning to outside sources (Mach, BSD). Personally I think Mac OS X is great but when people describe Apple as innovative Apple II and 1984 Mac dominate my thoughts. Just prior to Mac OS X things seemed to be getting a little creaky, Mac OS X was a incredibile improvement over 9, but as I move between an OS X box and an XP box today there just isn't much of a difference. Unlike the 80's and early to mid 90s. Now would be a good time to innovate in computers again.

All that said, the innovation seems to be occuring in non-computer products, iPod for example. Perhaps the brilliant plan guiding Apple these days revolves around diversification, being more than a computer company.

Re:Innovative: What have you done lately?

[enkidu]

Less innovative over time? From what institute did you get released? Lets see the stuff Apple has come up with in the last 4 years that was considered ground breaking and whether other companies followed their lead:

• 2G iMac (not yet)
• 17" PB (first derided, then copied all over the place)
• PowerCube (not a huge success, but sort of copied)
• G5 PowerMac (not yet widely copied)
• iPod (yes)
• Expose (soon to be copied)
• Rendevous (sort of copied)
• iTunes Store (copied)
• iDVD (copied)
• iSync (copied)
• iPhoto w/ integrated book/picture printing service (copied)
• GarageBand (soon to be copied)

I'll keep my PB, iLife, iSync, Expose all make my life easier.

Re:Rolling Stones??

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck are you talking about? The Beatles broke up long before Lennon's death.

Cocoa development

[bonch]

Developers love Cocoa. When they've gotten used to Cocoa, they wonder how they could have done things any other way.

The only thing I've seen excitement over in the same way is .NET.

Failing to consider iPod implications?

[Fortun L'Escrot]

If only the author of the article had gotten of a with of this neat little iPod + File Sharing idea.

It doesn't sound like they are dying?

[MyRuger]

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/09/21 34215&mode=thread&tid=126&tid=172

Anyway- This story is clearly written by someone who doesn't read /. (or maybe by someone who has their kids support their windows box).

Zeitgeist figures

[Steve Cowan]

What counts as a browser accessing google? Does that mean that the browser loaded the Google home page, or that the browser loaded *any* page from the Google site... ? Or the browser executed a search?

Since the introduction of Safari (I guess that's about a year ago?), Macs should load roughly 50% fewer pages from Google, because you can enter a search string right in the browser without having to load the Google home page.

Among other things...

[MadAnthony02]

I think the proprietary part is part of it - in addition to the economies of scale there is the fact that one complaint people have about Macs is that they are harder/more expensive to upgrade - but ALL laptops are expensive and hard to upgrade.

There are also probably people who also own a laptop and a desktop - I own a desktop PC and an Apple Powerbook 12". Because I use the laptop less and for lighter stuff, upgrading and software compatibility are small issues - plus the Powerbook looks so damn cool. I know several other coworkers at the college I work at who do the same - including a sysadmin who runs Virtual PC on his powerbook to run Netware Admin for our Novell network.

Ooooh well.

[rice_burners_suck]

At this point, perhaps Apple should concentrate a little *less* on innovation and concentrate a LOT *more* on selling. There are many, many, many people out there who are sick of Windows, sick of PCs, sick of all the garbage that you have to put up with, who would switch in a minute if Apple would put a little more effort into marketing.

And if they insist on innovating, why not release Mac OS X for the PC platform? Sure, it might totally fuck sales of their hardware, which graphic artists and musicians would undoubtedly continue to buy anyway, but many people would gladly use Mac OS X on the PC because it is clearly, obviously, and in every other way TOTALLY better than that shit that Microsoft makes.

Oh yeah, and one other thing... Since OS X is based on BSD, and both Apple and BSD are obviously dying (and have been for the past, what, 20 years?), what does that say about Linux? Probably that Linux is the suxx0rz because emacs is too complicated.

buying an ipod leads to buying a powerbook?

[thebladerunner]

I would love to buy an ipod but honestly, would it lead me to buying an apple computer? I doubt it. I tried really really hard to justify buying their hardware (a 15" powerbook) but in the end, it was just too expensive. I ended up getting an HP laptop (yeah yeah, no slot load dvdrw) for about $1000 less and all of the other features. It use both WinXP and Linux on it.

If it costs that much to manufacture a powerbook that they can justify asking for an extra $1k they need to re-examine their manufacturing process. If it doesn't, hey, they're gouging the guts out of their customers and won't have as many as they could. From my window it looks like the later. I'd have gone through with buying the PB but, the cost just wasn't reasonble. As a matter of fact, I was in the market for 5 laptops for people that work for me. In the end we have 5 HP's now due to cost and performance.

Sorry Apple, you missed the boat. I hope you stay around but I for one can't afford you.

No, this is silly

[iSwitched]

While I completely agree with the staement you've made in your final paragraph, the rest of your argument is yet another example of Apples to oranges (pun intended).

Building your own machine is cheaper than buying a similar machine from Apple, or, for that matter, from Dell, or HP, or whoever.

Even at that, recall that the cost savings only materializes if you value your time at $0.

This may work for you at this point in your life, and you reap the benefits of saving some of your dough. For others, me included, the cost of my time brings the self-built machine up to the cost of the shiny new G5, so I'll buy for now, thanks anyway.

No disrespect intended here, you deserve the +5, but I do tire of the comparison of self-built machines with 'off-the-shelf' ones on initial dollar cost alone.

Untrue.

[hethatishere]

You don't know many people then. There are just as many if not more PC Zealots. And while, the PC Zealot "group" can be divided into several camps: Windows R0xx0rz j00, Anti-Mac (These are the most prevelent), Pro-Performance. There is nonetheless just the same kind of fanaticism on both sides. The two sides, driven by whatever motivation serves to feed the other's passion. One would not exist without the other. So either, you live a sheltered social existence in regards to other geeks or your turning a blind eye.

BULLSHIT

[theolein]

I just can't afford a real one. and here I am with a 2.4 Ghz PC I got for 300, playing the living hell out of games that aren't available for the Mac, Photoshopping, Dreamweaving, etc

For crying out loud, you can't a Mac but you can afford Photoshop and Dreamweaver? Unless you're using pirated versions you're lying out of your ass.

Fuck off and go troll somewhere else.

Apple fluttered around 20 for decades then and now

[AHumbleOpinion]

The ten fold increase in stock price was fluke. An artifact of a company teetering on disaster, making a good recovery, and getting carried away in the technology bubble of the time. You conveniently ignore how when the bubble broke Apple went from 60 to twenty virtually overnight, and that fluttering around twenty is what they have done for decades.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=my

All this said as someone who has made money on Apple by buying around 20 and selling in the high 20s repeatedly. Its worked but I always consider the purchase to be highly speculative, a gamble.

Re:On a long enough time line the survival rate ..

[Short Circuit]

Whoever's left at the end is no longer immortal...his aging continues where it left off.

75 a fluke, hovers around 20 for decades

[AHumbleOpinion]

The ten fold increase in stock price was fluke. An artifact of a company teetering on disaster, making a good recovery, and getting carried away in the technology bubble of the time. You conveniently ignore how when the bubble broke Apple went from 60 to twenty virtually overnight, and that fluttering around twenty is what they have done for decades.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=my

All this said as someone who has made money on Apple by buying around 20 and selling in the high 20s repeatedly. Its worked but I always consider the purchase to be highly speculative, a gamble.

Apologies for responding to the wrong post earlier.

Well there is one network effect...

[MadAnthony02]

There is one network effect (thing that requires another thing) going for the iPod... a little thing called iTunes. So far it's the dominant online music seller, and it only works with the iPod. So if someone is using iTunes and wants an MP3 player that works with it, they are going to get an iPod. And if someone is about to replace their iPod and uses iTunes, chances are they are going to buy another iPod.

Apologies for respoding to the wrong post

[AHumbleOpinion]

Apologies for respoding to the wrong post

The price of commodity products

[flaming-opus]

All PC makers are struggling with profitability in the consumer space. On a $350 ipod, you just can't make a lot of money. Even if $100 of that is profit, you first have to pay for all your R&D and marketing costs. Whatever is left has to first pay generic corporate overhead, and then maybe some profit. In short you can sell a lot of ipods (or ibooks for that matter), at a unit profit of $100, before you generate ANY corporate profit. Gateway is hurting, compaq is hurting, Dell's server business is good, but in the consumer space they are only making money because they move A LOT of volume. Selling into the consumer space SUCKS.

This is one reason you see apple struggling to enter the low-end server space. IF they can charge $4500 for a reasonably equiped xserve with a service contract, (lets suppose a per unit profit of $1100) then you can afford to sell significantly fewer units, and still make proffit. The server space isn't a gimme, and they are going up against a lot of competition, but it's a much more attractive space than the consumer market.

I'm personally impressed with Apple's current server offerings. Now if they'd bring in a 4-CPU box and a RAID box with redundant controllers, I think you'd begin to see them make some headway. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Why state the obvious?

[iamacat]

Of course, a portable mp3 player alone can not save a computer company. They need to continue improving notebooks, get IBM to release CPUs with monsterous performance, make music store profitable (I am buying $40 audiobooks - should be some way there), add really impressive features to the OS...

But above all, they need to continue making new gadgets. iPod is sweet, now I want an HD-based camcoder/QT player that fits comfortably in my pocket and syncs with my DVD collection. How about an elegant stereo/video/game player box in my living room that talks to a Mac through an AirPort extreme station? How about a PDA with really fantastic voice/handwritting recognition?

Mac, Dying!?!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

As I read this article and the accompanying posts, I await the arrival of my oh so sweet 12" Powerbook. My First
Mac Ever!!

Mac is FAR from dying, people. I just switched.

What you're not taking into account is...

[Anonymous Coward]

...those folks who purchase an eMachine may be initially satisfied, but once they discover that their power supply has failed and that the guts of it are pure crap, that they've gotten exactly what they paid for.

Slashdot says Apple's not dying...

[theolein]

The one thing that always amazes me, is that no matter how bad the news, in fact the worse the better, any article on slashdot about some Apple misfortune or bug or new product regularly gets at least twice, if not three times, the number of posts compared to the usual average of around 200 to 350 posts.

That say to me that, even though there is a fair amount of trolling, that there is an enormous amount of interest in the company and its products. And given that the pro Apple comments are usually modded up, I suspect that:

a). There is a large portion of slashdot readers who use a Mac and OSX.
b). That interest translates into the real world in buying terms, and
c). That even the MS fanboys and die hard "it's too expensive" or "port it to x86" morons would use a Mac and OSX if they could.

In summary, I think Apple is doing so well with the G5, Powerbooks, OSX and the iPod that they are THE act to follow in the IT world.

Re:Slashdot says Apple's not dying...

[mcwop]

Add to that news like this:

The Rocky Mountain News reports that the Grateful Dead are "finalizing a deal" with Apple to put their entire collection of live performances available for purchase through the iTunes Music Store.

The Grateful Dead has a long history of allowing fans to make bootleg recordings of their concerts. Over the years, countless bootleg Dead concert recordings have made their way onto the Internet, available for download through peer-to-peer file sharing services and elsewhere. From Weir's perspective, getting the Dead's own recordings of their shows is a natural progression.

"What we wanna do is digitize our entire catalog, our entire collection of tapes ... and make that stuff available," said Grateful Dead guitarist Bob Weir. "I think I-Tunes [sic] is up to that."

Story Here

Apple stands a chance.

Re:The lamest troll since "It took 5 hours to uplo

[Beardydog]

I had four screens on my aging Mac. My PC was glad to have the ViewSonic, but it took some prodding to get the old Apple Studio Display to run through alongside it. There's something sick and wrong about running a DVI->VGA adapter into a VGA->Apple adapter. I try not to wiggle it too much.

If it can't run, it can't win the race. :-)

[NeoBeans]

Okay, but here's something to consider... if building a system is part of the fun, then why buy a Mac?

Granted, there are some cool system and case mods done with Macs, the typical Mac owner is less interested in tweaking and modding than in having a computer that works.

I look at it like this... some folks like to buy a Honda Civic, bolt on a turbo, fiddle with the exhaust and intake, and have a cheap car that can run with a Porsche 911. It may not be as bulletproof, but even with repairs, it's more affordable than the Porsche 911.... but if you're the type of person that just wants a fast car (with a warranty!) that runs, you probably won't be modding up an "inexpensive import".

No one complains of Porsche, Ferrari, or Lamborghini using proprietary parts. If you check out the cost of maintenance on one of 'em, you may even see why AppleCare is an option for the "I want something that just works!"-crowd.

Price is a wonderful point of comparison, but there is room for the Civic and the 911 in the automotive world, and no one claims that the small marketshare of Porsche indicates they are going out of business anytime soon.

Also... consider this: the "ultimate build-it-yourself" PC may not come in much cheaper than a comparable Mac. Notice these benchmarks that show a dual 2.0 Ghz G5 like the one I paid $3299 for being very competitive with a dual 2.0Ghz AMD Opteron box from Xi Computing, which clocked in at $4107.

Also... note that the gamingcomparison shows the G5 (equipped with a Radeon 9800 or 9600) does pretty good, though the difference in APIs (DirectX vs. OpenGL) can also be a factor here.

So this bring up my big question...

How many people are building systems with "off the shelf" parts that are actually significantly cheaper than a PowerMac G5, and can compete toe-to-toe with it?

This alone proves the author a total idiot:

[DurendalMac]

"While Apple's sales of $6.2 billion last fiscal year were nearly unchanged from 1999, profits plummeted 90 percent to $69 million, from $601 million four years ago...Jobs' mass-appeal strategy has crimped the company's historically high profit margins. Apple's net profit margin is just 1 percent. That's down from 10 percent four years ago." Oh. My. God. If you try to compare ANY computer manufacturer's profits four years ago to their profits now, they WILL look bad. Why? Because the tech boom was in full swing four years ago! The tech market is recovering from the burst bubble, but it's nowhere NEAR what it was then! Whoever wrote this drivel needs to pull his head out of his ass. Seriously. That quote is sheer ignorance and utter idiocy.

I dont think so

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple might not be popular as linux or windows... (and this is coming from a linux user's standpoint) But apple is a survivor, they have the tendency of pulling through, hey, as long as they've been around, with several competitors rising and falling.. I think they're far from going out.

They go down, but never out.

Here's another one Money Magazine!

[mrbrown1602]

In the article, the author says he only found one person who bought an Apple computer due to his positive experience with the iPod... well, honestly, I bought my Power Mac G5 because my iPod opened up my eyes to Apple's engineering and such.

Re: My Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Your friends called it a gay computer. Where did you go to school, Mississippi?

Sense

[virg_mattes]

> That silly argument has been debunked innumerable times. Apache vs. MS ISS for example.

I'll preface my statements so that you know where I stand. I use Windows at work, because the applications I support in the field are Windows apps so I must. I'm not fond of it at all, and I don't like Microsoft apps, so I have experience working with non-MS packages to do virtually everything I do at work. My laptop runs Linux (not very well, but that's because it's a very old laptop) and I've used Macintosh systems on and off for quite a few years. I like them, but I haven't made the jump yet, mostly because of games that I like.

All that said, Apache versus IIS does not debunk the idea that the market leader gets the most viruses. Web servers are not end-user applications. Most of the people running web servers are at least tolerably computer savvy (be nice!) and it's not something that you ever expect to run right out of the box, with default settings. Most of the viruses that plague Windows users are either fault exploiters or social engineers. They either munge a default somewhere or trick the end user into doing something to allow it access. Web server administrators do not usually fall into either of these categories, so it's a bad analogy. The simple fact is still that Apple users don't suffer from viruses nearly as much as Windows users because there are more Windows computers to attack. Every mass-mailing buffer plow relies on the fact that at least a few of the many machines it attacks will be unpatched or misconfigured or otherwise vulnerable to invasion. Every "click me to check your system!" email bomb relies on a portion of its recipients not being technical enough to delete it. As people make the switch to Macs, some of those people will be non-techies or lazy or gullible. When the number of Macs gets high enough, then the number of machines that are open to attack because the owner has never heard the term "firewall" gets high enough that such an attack would become effective. By the same token, this segment will continue happily clicking open those attachments, which will begin to contain a Mac-usable payload when there are enough Macs around.

As the saying at the help desk goes, your system may work, but will your mom's system work? How about the people who don't have a technical kid to call?

Virg

Re:Sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I read that there isn't one single OSX virus out there yet.

Surely, someone out there would like the kudos of producing the first OSX virus?

There are enough of you on this forum alone who would revel in a OSX viral outbreak... maybe it's not as easy as knocking up a quick virus with MS WormMaker 2002?

In other news...

[inkswamp]

The Chicken Little News Service is reporting today that scientists believe that the sky may be falling sometime next week. More on this as it develops.

Bzzt. Wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux beat ya to it.

Your post is pure revisionism.

But, this is Apple love fest.

Prove it

[Mr. Underbridge]

You don't know many people then. There are just as many if not more PC Zealots. And while, the PC Zealot "group" can be divided into several camps: Windows R0xx0rz j00

I would love to see any evidence of that statement. In fact, I just did a Google search for it, and came up empty. So I am most strenuously calling bullshit on that one.

Anti-Mac (These are the most prevelent),

Admittedly. But as I said, this isn't because they care about their windows box so much, most of those are trolls because our Mac community is such an easy troll target.

Pro-Performance

Back to the troll, and also this actually having been completely true until the G5 (arguably). Most non-delusional mac owners admit the performance gap for one-chip setups until g5.

here is nonetheless just the same kind of fanaticism on both sides

Not even remotely close. The fractional number of mac users vs. windows users flaming, trolling message boards, etc. isn't even in the ballpark. Put it this way - if there's the same number of fanatics, there are 20 times as many mac zealots on a per-machine basis.

The two sides, driven by whatever motivation serves to feed the other's passion

And I'm saying there is little passion regarding the windows OS. Nobody tricks out their windows. No one cares about the windows OS.

One would not exist without the other.

Au contraire. The minority, or the underrepresented, or slighted, always cares more. Notice there are many feminists but no masculinists. The fractional membership of the NAACP is far higher than any white-power organization. Just as mac people are always comparing their stuff to the windows hegemony, but windows users could really give a shit.

Hell, even microsoft itself doesn't care about apple. Linux is their target. Same for intel and amd. Again, I say this as a mac owner, but the zealotry is almost completely one-sided.

What about the "Apple Clones"

[Vaystrem]

I remember when Steve Jobs came back and Apple revoked all the licenses of the "Mac Clones" (see: UMAX 1998 Article that were in the market and then "woosh" magically Apple's profits increased it shipped more computers and was "regaining marketshare". January 19th Article on "Big Jump" in Apple profits.

What did Apple Claim:
"The strong sales combined with internal market research "makes it clear our products are reaching many new customers beyond Apple's installed base," said Fred Anderson, Apple's CFO." Bullshit. Apple was simply picking up all the business it "lost" to the clone manufacturers it had previously licensed.

Apple sits in an precarious position.
It is dependent upon an outside source for CPUs - and that's fine its competitors are as well - but its dependent upon different uncompatible cpus.

It competes with Microsoft & Linux for market/mind-share in the Software Arena.

It competes with Creative/Sony in the consumer device arena.

The list goes on... Apple is quick becoming the jack of all trades and master of none. Apple needs to refocus on A strength instead of trying to tackle everyone/everything under the sun.

i wonder if MS will bail them out again

[Anonymous Coward]

or is Linux enough competition now that MS no longer needs apple?

Apple has $4 billion in the bank

[Durandal64]

They're not going anywhere anytime soon. And they're turning a profit consistently. If a company is consistently making more money than it costs to run itself, then it'll be sticking around.

newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

most people arent willing to pay $500 for an mp3 player... everybody that was willing bought one the first week.
as cheap as blank cds are, as well as the inexpensive players, whats the point?

example, i got my old man a 256mb flash-based player (was about $150) & he doesnt even have enough music to fill THAT up.
even if he does, we can double the storage capacity for another $50

ipod is a niche market, & should be marketed as such.

Re:newsflash

[wbd]

That's why they sell models cheaper than $500 (15GB iPod = $299).

Duh.

Oh....and if you're so happy that your flash MP3 player can go from 256MB to 512MB for $50 (total cost $200)...how about blowing another $50 and GOING TO FOUR FREAKING GIGABYTES! Or another $50 and going to FIFTEEN GIGABYTES!.

Niche market my ass....iPod OWNS the MP3 player market...and just keeps getting better and better to boot.

Oh yeah... really useful article there...

[wolfen]

"The page you've requested is only available to current money magazine subscribers."

Of Course Apple is Dying

[notaspy]

I've been using the same PowerBook for six years! That's not a profitable business model.

Spltting short-hairs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but its hard for an idiot to know by how much it will fall and when might go back up given the earnings forcast due in three weeks. Shorting it would be risky both in magnitude and timing.

Marketshare falling.. oh, really? I hadn't noticed

[iiioxx]

reduced CPU sales (resulting a shrinking marketshare)

I've got two Al PowerBooks and two iMacs, all purchased within the last 12 months, that tell a different story. I've made the switch to the Apple platform for my desktop machines, and two of my friends have both declared that their next computer will definitely be a Mac. People at my office are now looking at Apple in a different light, because they see Apple hardware being delivered to my desk. They are interested, curious. Switching is contagious.

I was at the Apple Store opening at Southpark Mall in Charlotte, NC. The line was so long you couldn't even get in the door. The next day, people were milling around out front at 9:00am (the store opens at 10:00am), and within 15 minutes after the store opened, it was full of people trying out Apple stuff - and making purchases.

From out here in the field, it doesn't look like Apple marketshare is falling.

Fuck yo momma

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya Steve Jobs' little fag

Yeah so...

[AvengingAngel]

It's official: Netcraft blah blah blah

ObTheOnion

[BorgCopyeditor]

Obligatory Onion reference: World Death Rate Holding Steady at 100 Percent.

Death, a metabolic affliction causing total shutdown of all life functions, has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.

Macs do not have a 2 monitor limit.

[tiktokfx]

The number of displays is only limited by the number of cards. Case in point, in 1993 I was using a Mac IIx with 5 monitors.

Mac laptops delicate?

[tiktokfx]

I mean, I'm sure mine wouldn't stand up to a sledgehammer hit, but my 12" is pretty damn solid.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunatly I am familiar with many people who have droped Mac since OS X's release, this is not nessesarily due to OS X as a poor platform, because it's not many people that have left Mac loved OS X, but unfortunatly what mac has historicaly been known for ie. Graphics/Photo can be done equaly well done, if not better, on a wintell machine. For that reason in combination with cost difference, many news agentcies have been migrating away from Mac for the last few years.
I personaly work in a newspapers photo department and all our desktops have been replaced with Wintel machines, and as the Photograpers laptops wear out they are being replaced with Wintel machines as well. Again alot of this is cost, but a good part of the reson behind the move is that my single P4 machine has been out perfoming the new dual G5 machines being used in other parts of the newspaper when runing programs like Photoshop and Indesign.

That said, I do believe many people are migrating to Mac, mostly thoes that want a unix OS but also like a very good GUI, ie college researchers, that just want to get work done but don't want to take the time to learn indepth Unix, and that is really where Apple has the chance to shine.

With both the argument I'm making it can be easy to see why people would think that Apple is in the decline:

1. Traditional corperate Mac users migrate away from Mac.
a. Cost
b. Functanality

2. Migration away fast due to cost differences.

3. Migration to Mac by new target group.

4. Migration to slow because of cost to migrate.

One thing that Apple does have going for it in the coming year will be the fact that a lot of companies are saying that they will be upgrading their old harware/software/OS in the next year to year and a half, and despite the exponential growth in Open Source Software, Mac OS X had by far a superior GUI with Aqua, giving them a distinct advantage.

I think that when it's all said and done though 2004 will see some intresting changes across the board when it comes to OS's.

P.S. I would like to register and not have to post this under "Anonymous Coward" but at this time funds do not allow me to register.

Market Share Side Note Side Note

[virg_mattes]

> By the way, did you know that Apple has less than 5% market share?

By the way, did you know that Apple is in more than one market, and so saying "five percent market share" without context is meaningless?

Virg

The question is one of risk and return..

[beakburke]

on the money invested. Raw dollar profits tell you very little about the kind of money a company is making. What kind of assets do they own, etc.

Yay! Apple's beleaguered again!

[tuxedobob]

Have to wonder if the article actually used that word. :)

In other news

[IntergalacticWalrus]

That guy is sooo last year, talking about Apple dying. Nowadays, all the cool financial analysts are talking about the nearing death of Nintendo, duh.

Waiting for 64 bit OS

[alixnet]

I am a fan of the Mac. I have only purchased one computer, first generation G3 desktop, 1998. (Before that I used family and school computers. Never needed one till grad school. I still didn't really need it.) One of the reasons that I got it was that it was such a huge leap - I had been shopping (on the fence) for a computer for about 3 years. I almost got one of the PowerComputing Mac clones.

I don't need a new computer. Since I code for a living I sit in front of a W2K box all day. I just use my home computer it to surf and email now. But I will get a dual 3ghz G5 when the 64 bits are fully unleashed in the OS and apps. Then I will probably start playing games again - until it is too long in the toothe to play cool games, like mine is now.

I wonder how many other people their are like me that are holding out until there is a huge change.

--Alex

Run the Numbers

[virg_mattes]

> A quick trip to the Apple's online store to check will show you that a iMac G4 800MHz/256MB/60GB/Combo/E/56K/15" - Refurbished, which meets all of your listed requirements can be had for $899 direct from Apple, with a 1 year warranty.

That's great. He said...

I maintain that you cannot get anything worth running OSX on for less than about a grand ($US) as you will use it...

...and your solution prices out at $899.00. How much was the shipping again?

QED.

Virg

Re:Run the Numbers

[pkey]

The point I was trying to make was that it took me around 3 minutes to find a machine that met all his requirements for under $1000. If you spent the time to check Smalldog or Ebay or shop that carries refurbished or discontinued hardware, I'm sure you could easily find a Mac that met all of his requirements for much less than his "about a grand".

I'll also point out that his G4 requirement for OSX worthiness is not accurate. My G3 iBook plays full-screen DivX movies just fine (And we all know that full-screen DivX is the only thing that could make OSX worth running).

Oh My God!!!

[virg_mattes]

> Emacs can be had refurb for $700, pretty easily, and from apple, to boot.

Why the heck would I pay $700 for Emacs when I can download it for free for any OS off the web?

Virg

Still not too shabby

[CrazyTalk]

Even if they do go under (which I sincerely hope they don't) they've been around for close to 30 years. How many other companies can say the same, especially those that started in a garage (yes, I know about HP etc.). Look at all the other early microcomputer players that are no longer around - Atari, Commodore, leading Edge, Kaypro, Osborne, DEC, etc. - the list goes on. Its very, very difficult, especially in the technology biz, to have such longevity.

Re:Rolling Stones??

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you forget about Beatles Anthology (with new Beatles tunes) or are you just fucking stupid...

Money Magazine writer bias...

[aisnota]

After reading the article, all I could detect is a peculiar bias. Does Apple iPod drive Macintosh sales today... well maybe not much, tomorrow is a different day in the sales world and so forth.

1. Apple can grow sales. Is this only a next quarter mentality from the author in Money Magazine?
   
2. Apple has quite a bit of cash in the bank and can stretch with cost cutting if necessary
   
3. Macintosh Powerbook and iBook sales have been climbing from people I know personally that had been locked into PC's
   
4. There is an undercurrent of PC users will to give Apple a shot after experiencing so many computer virii, or wish to stop worring about the issue.
   

This writer pretends to like Apple when the majority of criticisms sound more like a Dell shareholder or a sour grapes relay from the record companies envious of iTunes.

Last but not least, this writer obviously masks one important point. The low margin in iTunes is assuming everyone purchases one and only one tune at a time. Apple surely does not want to brag, but people who purchase many tunes allow them to make more money. The credit card company piece allows for more profit. Special commercial deals also bypass the credit card company fees. If Apple really gets serious about the matter of credit card charges they will do a Walmart and buy a bank themselves for the best rates.

Re: Not About Market Share

[Deviate_X]

The First Bullet point on the MACNN page clearly states:

"Apple sold just over 3 million computers in its last fiscal year, which ended in September -- 900,000 less than it sold in fiscal 1996, the year before Jobs returned..."

This is about absolute numbers not a percentage of the market.

Heh, gamut would have been a better choice...

[Naum]

... and I misspelled gauntlet...

PortalPlayer

[meehawl]

iPod, if nothing else is advertisement for Apple Technology.

Really? I thought it was more a brilliant advert for PortalPlayer. Apple doesn't have an exclusive contract with PP - their OS is already being used by Samsung, Philips, and others. The real winners out of this are PP - they look well placed to remain the largest mp3 player systems provider no matter whose box is currently the market leader.

This is sweet!

[Infonaut]

If I only had access to the full Money story, I could get some juicy quotes and find the name of the author. Here are a few oldies but goodies from my archive of absurd punditry:

"Stick a fork in 'em - this Apple is cooked."
Robert Thomson, Financial Post, 2/20/2003

"While praising Apple's service, analysts caution that its success won't necessarily transfer completely to the Windows environment."
John Borland, c|net news, 7/28/03

"Folks, the Mac platform is through... ."
John C. Dvorak, 1998

"The iPod, with its backward-looking feature set and dramatically inflated price, has only its good looks going for it."
Lukas Hauser, the MacCommunist, 10/23/2001

Mileage

[meehawl]

These are the same people driving Hyundais but want BMWs. Some things cost more.

Yes, but that Beamer runs faster than the Hyundai, with more torque.

The cheapest Macs run several times the price of a low-end PC but run slower.

Re:Mileage

[Sri Lumpa]

"The cheapest Macs run several times the price of a low-end PC but run slower."

That is, until the PC gets hit by a ton of viruses, spyware, adware, trojans... which slow it down to half the speed of the Mac.

Pretty good indeed, especially server growth

[Anonymous Coward]

So, from where I am viewing the market from the perspective of an end user, Apple's market position is looking pretty good to me.

Yeah, real good.

And what about all those announcements?

Microsoft asks Mac users, "How can we get your business?'

Merrill Lynch, whose technology group recently began coverage of Apple, noted in a research note last week that "open source and Mac adoption is still in infancy in the enterprise market." However, "we should see explosive growth in the years to come as corporations look to achieve cost savings within their IT departments."

Using IDC's own estimate for G5/OSX server shipments through 2007, as well as its internal data on OSX operating system attach rates and server pricing, Merrill reckons that the enterprise G5 market could be worth $529 million by 2007. "This represents a [compound annual growth rate] of 61 percent over the 5-year period from 2002-2007," the note said.

Japanese telco to aid Mac phone development

Mac, G5 systems move out enterprise's mainframe

New G5 chips, but no 64-bit OS X for at least two years (too late).

"We're saying that OSX/G5s will eat Unix," Gantz said

Is Computer Associates contemplating dumping Windows?

If you have been following Microsoft attempts to hold onto counties, cities, states, governmental bodies, governments, corporations and people, you know the headlines have gone from talk to action.

The governments that are starting to move over tend to be mostly poorer countries, or ones with large, largely computer-free populaces. Brazil and China are good examples of this trend. In those places, OSX/G5 adoption has been picking up steam to the point that if a second world country told MS to take a hike, it would hardly rate a Slashdot story on a slow day.

THE NATIONAL HEALTH Service is considering using the OSX operating system; G5s in a 2.3 billion deal that could affect as many as 800,000 PCs if a pilot is successful.

Nine German cities poised to adopt OSX/G5

Official: China to invest in OSX/G5-based software industry

The US Army has abandoned Windows and chosen OSX for a key component of its "Land Warrior" programme, according to a report in National Defense Magazine. The move, initially covering a personal computing and communications device termed the Commander's Digital Assistant (CDA), follows the failure of the previous attempt at such a device in trials in February of this year, and is part of a move to make the device simpler and less breakable.

According to program manager Lt Col Dave Gallop this is part of a broader move towards OSX/G5 by the US Army: "Evidence shows that OSX is more stable. We are moving in general to where the Army is going, to OSX/G5-based OS."

Sun Microsystems is the odd man out. It has an impressive array of powerful enemies: IBM, Microsoft, Intel, HP, Red Hat, Apple, Novell, and more. It has only a weakened Oracle as a friend, and Oracle too has made a "bet the company" move to OSX/G5. OSX/G5 threatens many of Sun's traditional products as sharply as it threatens Micr

Apple dying? No it's the best/fastest/shiniest...

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who first used DTP apps many years ago on Apple systems (1985-ish, way before anything similar on the PC was available) I can honestly say I have respect for Apple engineering. They've always stood out a bit from the rest, if not always for genuine technical superiority and fashion effort, then certainly at least for willing to take a few design risks and innovate. They have shaped the "style" of computers far more pleasantly than the beige and later black IBM-esque boxes. Millions of schoolkids thought the Mac was the computer, the only computer, so it's surprising to see their almost non-existent current market share. My affinity for Mac systems is definite; it's their usual stereotypical raving Mac user that breaks my sense of logic, with their "look at my Mac thingie it's sooo much better" attitudes. It is to me little surprise that this "showoff" Mac disease now extends to their new iPod users.

It was enough a few years ago to see the rabid Mac users claim the iMac is much faster than a comparably-priced PC to realize the perception has nothing to do with reality (umm, yeah, I'm sure it's much faster for you than it was for PCMagazine and the other review sites). I won't even try to understand why a Slashdot user--advocate of everything "open" and competitive--will seemingly advocate a hardware and OS platform that is utterly closed system-wise and greatly devoid of affordable accessory and software choices. No matter, now I'm forced to see the Mac iPod herd, marching onwards proudly, iPods held in hand and proclaiming "I am iPod user, the new Mac Generation is upon you, notice me!" Perhaps the player also doubles as a tool for divining water? No, my dislike is not jealousy, it's annoyance. To them I say, puhlease, put your damn music player away, in your pocket, up your...ahem, er...sorry, I digress.

Moral of story, make the most of your purchase, enjoy it for what it's good at, but damn it, stop sticking it in my face.

Finally, I'd like thank Apple for making the concept of music micropayment viable and giving us a choice from the music establishment, and also thank the rabid Mac users for helping me choose a player other than the iPod.

Another Subscription URL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will you TWITS stop sending subscription URLs? And will you /. grunts please stop accepting them?

Seems to ignore Apple's 2 biggest problems imho

[Andy_R]

1) OS9 won't run on G5s

60% of mac users haven't moved to OSX. There is a LOT of resistance there, the people who bought a mac because it was simple to use REALLY don't want to learn a whole new OS, repurchase all their software and lose all the apps that haven't been ported.

2) Still stuck at 2Ghz.

I'm an Apple fanboy so I don't mind, but why has the PC contingent stopped being on Apple's case about being slow?

btw, I'd love to have read the article, but "The page you've requested is only available to current money magazine subscribers." and "Offer available to U.S./Canadian subscribers only." they won't even sell me the damn article because I'm British.

Re:Seems to ignore Apple's 2 biggest problems imho

[Anonymous Coward]

"Still stuck at 2Ghz. I'm an Apple fanboy so I don't mind, but why has the PC contingent stopped being on Apple's case about being slow?"

Because GHz isn't a good way to rate a processor's performance. A 3GHz Pentium 4 is not 50% faster than a 2GHz G5. It's lucky to be 10-20% faster, if that.

Re:Seems to ignore Apple's 2 biggest problems imho

[JackAxe]

From your comments above, I can tell that you haven't used a newer Mac in the past 2 years. At least nothing newer then a G4 800. Like the other reply states, GHz isn't a measure of speed. Not when one system can do more in one cycle then the other can do in several cycles. Just like an Opteron, or FX, a fully optimized G5 can run circles around a 3+Ghz Pentium. And for the most part, G4's in the 1+Ghz range are about the same performace as a mid range XP; Which is by no means slow. OSX use the GPU and Altivec to render all graphics, so 2D video performance on a Mac feels and is faster for the most part then a PC, even when the PC has a more powerful video card. And if one is in the market for the fastest notebook only an inch thick, they certainly won't find it on the PC side right now

You're underestimating how many people have actually moved to OSX. Like most of my associates, the only thing that held me back was Photoshop and when that was released, it was a no brainer. Every app that I need is available for OSX and has been for a while. There are also several apps that I use that are OSX only. Your comment about apps not being ported is dated and no longer holds true.

If one knows how to use OS9, OSX is cake. It's by far the best Mac OS to date and is very easy to use, even more so then OS9. No more "Extensions," or "Control Panels" to deal with and it's performance is not only fast, but rock stable.

O.O

Re:Seems to ignore Apple's 2 biggest problems imho

[Andy_R]

Everyone on Slashdot knows Ghz isn't a good measure of speed, and that the G5s are very fast machines. Apple's problem isnt that these machines are slow, it's that the haven't got *any faster* for quite long time now. Steve Jobs promised us 3Ghz in the summer, so there are a lot of people putting off their purchases until the next speedbump, which is long overdue. Lots of long term apple users like me have been burned in the past, and now only buy in the week after a speedbump - either a cut-price old machine or a fast new one.

As for underestimating the number of people using OSX, that's not my estimate, it's Apple's. Remember Steve Jobs WWDC speech? He proudly stated that 40% of active Apple users have switched. Again, the slashdot crowd are going to be aware of the pros and cons, and are going to be among the early adopters. The 60% don;t have a voice round here. They are not generally the sort of people who read slashdot, they are luddites who bought an Apple beacuse it's simpler than a PC. I think everyone is underestimating how hard it will be to get those people to switch, especially the ones who experimented with the very first release of OSX and vowed never to touch it ever again.

Re:Seems to ignore Apple's 2 biggest problems imho

[JackAxe]

The G5 just came out last summer, not even a year ago; How is that a long time? Besides, new hardware is coming out this month. And they should be using the 90nm chips, so even if Apple lowered the clock speed on these G5s, they would be faster. If Apple doesn't offer a 3Ghz by this summer, then it will have only been more B.S from SJ, but I've grown to expect that from him. But there's still time, so I can personaly wait. Besides, my current Mac's have plenty of power, so there's no rush for me to upgrade. And Like you said, these machines are not slow and with two OS upgrades already, they have only got faster. For me, that has been more welcome then another speed bump.

I was burned in the passed also, but that was because of my ignorance. I have a freind who is waiting to upgrade and will after he sees what is released this week. He'll do as you described. Like you, he's just begin a smart consumer.

I'm seeing OSX from a different perspective. In the passed 6 months, I've had more PC friends switch to the Mac then I've known of in the passed 6 years. I won't keep my fingers crossed, but I think that percentage number has changed quite a bit. And for people who tried to use OSX as their primary OS in the begining, it only takes a little bit of common sense to know that it was a new and like all new operating sytems would need time to get the crinks worked out and the much needed software support. This is why OS9 was still pre-installed, it was the crutch that OSX needed to get on it's feet. But for new users, since Jaguar, OSX has been a great OS. I feel for early adopters of XP 64-bit and in the future Longhorn, the PCs OSX. =)

=P

Which is okay.

[juuri]

Because greybeards never spend any money.

Re:Which is okay.

[Eccles]

But greybeards do something more important -- they evangelize. If they don't care for OS X, they won't be encouraging others in that direction.

A faster CPU is not innovative.

[AHumbleOpinion]

First, since you apparently did not read my post, I said that the innovation these days are not in the computers, that the computers are incremental improvemenst. Go read my post for the details. The G5, 2G iMacs, etc. are not innovative, they are incremental improvements, the iPod is innovative.

Re:A faster CPU is not innovative.

[enkidu]

Actually I did, I just carried away listing innovations. The PB 17, PowerCube, and especially G4 iMac are pretty amazing innovations in form and function. Equal to the iPod in terms of innovation my opinion.

Re:A faster CPU is not innovative.

[Anonymous Coward]

Being innovative in case design is hardly the same as being innovative in computing technologies. It's a pretty lame way to try to "change the world" (to use Jobs' old slogan).

Who had this date in the pool...

[rdean400]

It's been a while since we've seen an "Apple is dying" story.

Re:Who had this date in the pool...

[TiggsPanther]

I guess it was only a matter of time. Seeing that MasOS these days is built on a BSD base, it was inevitable that that it received a port of that old gag.

Tiggs

Re:Scary orchestra

[Zareste]

Haha! Y'know I had this nagging feeling about writing it like that, and also the word at the end is supposed to be 'lot', not 'loe'

SOS

[lisle]

Wonder who's idea this was? Can anyone say FUD? Apparently so.

PC's will keep Apple alive

[joel8x]

Every day one of my user's asks me for advise about buying a new computer, and each time I explain to them why they need a Mac.

The #1 reason is that there are no virus problems on a Mac, and no major problems with spyware, malware, and general browser hijacking. Having someone like me come to their house to clean out their PC will cost them much more over all than if they had just bought a Mac in the first place.

The #2 reason is the digital hub aspect. Adult's want mostly the same things from their home computers: Music, Digital Photos, Email, Internet Access, and Instant Messaging. All things that a Mac does better or the same as a PC minus most of the security woes and difficulty of setup. Most of the stuff they want to do will work right out of the box, nothing to install or mess with.

The #3 reason is investment. After 3 years, you can sell your Mac and still get a lot of money for it. Try selling a 3 year old PC and you will get a fraction of what a Mac resells for.

So, in conclusion, I see that as Windows gets so bad that I spend 3/4's of my day cleaning out spyware, viruses, and restoring hijacked machines to a workable state, people will start to get tired of it and turn to the best alternative. And I will be there ready to give them directions to the nearest Apple store.

Re:PC's will keep Apple alive

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you also tell them that Mac's will make them stupid so they start to use apostrophe's where they're not supposed to?

Re:PC's will keep Apple alive

[dothvader]

Come on Joe. I hope you are not in the business of selling computers. But then again it sounds like you are a Mac addict. #1 is a bold faced lie. There are as many vulnerabilities on the Mac as the PC. There are virues for the Mac and they are just as pesky as the virues for the PC. #2 is a lie and a stretch. The PC comes with all the stuff that a Mac does. It is very subjective as whether or not it is easier to work with. Any of the programs working with images, music, video work better with a purchase of software designed to handle that specifc type of file rather than rely the "lite", "OS", or "Windows" version typically loaded on either a Mac or PC. #3 is also a lie and flies smack in the face of Moore's law. ANY electronic device will be considered almost worthless after 3 years. If you found somebody to buy your old Mac for a "good" price, then you were at a garage sale and found a sucker. So in conclusion...get real.

Hey well you know what they say:

[rune2]

If there's ever a World War 3 only two things will survive: the cockroaches and Keith Richards

You must be new here

[rune2]

No one RTFAs anymore.

Apple is not a bank

[fm6]

A business with a lot of cash is not like a family with a lot of cash. The family can think about a few more luxuries, send the kids to a good school, maybe take some time off from work. No downside, except for greedy relatives.

For a big corporation, a big bank account doesn't mean that management can kick back, or employees can feel more secure about their jobs. The VCs will still give you a hard time if they think your expenses are too high. And if your business starts to tank, you can't the investors, "It's ok, we've got enough cash to keep the lights on without generating income." They'll actually give you a harder time than if you had no cash. Because if you can't convince them them things will turn around, they're going to want to liquidate the business and divvy up the pile. Not an option they have if you're broke, or just have a reasonable operating reserve.

My former employer just laid off a bunch of people. (Probably would have included me if I hadn't already left.) For an ordinary person's point of view, these layoffs were absurd. The company did have a bad quarter, but it was the first unprofitable quarter in several years. And they had half a billion dollars (over two years gross revenue) in cash. So why the layoffs? Because cash or no, management has to convince its investors that its assets are performing. The employees weren't generating enough revenue to justify their continue employment.

(No, it doesn't make sense to me either. But that's the way Wall Street does things.)

Bottom line: no amount of cash can save Apple from dying. It just means that if they do die, their investors will do better at the liquidation. The only way Apple can stay in business is by selling enough Macs and iPods, and doing so with enough of a profit margin, to satisfy Wall Street. If they can't do this, they're history.

Re:Bzzt. Wrong.

[CharlesEGrant]

I'll chime in to support the parent. Despite the tremendous strides it has made in a very short time, the Linux desktop is still not suitable for general consumption. Did you read Eric Raymond's rant on the Linux user experience? Gnome and KDE are worthy efforts which I use daily, but as Mr. Raymond points out there is more to creating a productive end user interface then poping up dialog boxes that allow you to type in the same obscure strings that you would otherwise have typed into /etc/foo.conf using emacs.

I'd abandoned Apple back in the OS 8 days because I'd though the OS was languishing, but I just bought an iBook P4, and with OS X Apple really has made a Unix desktop that really is usable by the legions of Aunt Tillies.

What R&D are you talking about, fan boy?

[Anonymous Coward]

You make it sound like Apple invests significantly more into R&D than other outfits, when in fact it's just more or less the same.

Re:What R&D are you talking about, fan boy?

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

How much do you think Dell spends on R&D? "OK, we have a motherboard, a processor, some RAM etc.... let's fit them all together on an assembly line." Just about all Dell has to do is make a case, and even those are bland.

Contrast this with Apple, who researches how to make the G5 cool enough, (ever looked inside a G5 case? Look at the airflow and tell me they didn't spend months on that alone) new form factors like the new iMac, not to mention the OS itself. Some companies may come close, but I doubt any computer company spends as much on R&D as Apple.

You're either a dumbass troll, or just a dumbass.

Again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well.. Here we go again, "Apple is dying."

Seriously, I can't understand why this type of "news" still make headline here. I guess we all have used to these type of opinions already?

I can't but ignore these "Apple is going down" people because, anecdotally, I've learnt that even the most rational people bash Macs and Apple irrationally because of their system preference, and when talking about opinions stated by journalists, there can be a financial connection (e.g. Microsoft buying a lot of commercial space from CNN, or MS even owning some CNN shares) behind the motive.

So is Apple dying? There's a distinct possibilty. But soon? Hardly.

Dyer's the bigger dinosaur

[BiOFH]

He's livin' in the past ...Marge, quit livin' in the past.

Dyer's likely to go before Apple does.

"Sorry, but that's the way I see it. I wish it weren't true."

Re:too expensive

[GreatDrok]

I think it depends on whether you count performance in pure numbers, ie of course a P4 or Athlon is going to be faster than an iMac running a G4 but at the end of the day I don't see that big a problem when the OS is designed to work on that class of hardware. The thing with Apple gear is to look at what you are buying and keep the basic spec quite low. Then upgrade like you would with any other PC. I am looking at adding more RAM to my iBook but the original Apple stuff will make your eyes water. However, I can get compatible RAM from other manufacturers for prices which are in the same ball park as for PCs. Same goes for disc drives. I looked at the difference in spec between my iBook (933Mhz G4, 40GB drive, 14" monitor) with top iBook (1Ghz G4, 60GB drive, everything else the same as mine) and it costs an extra 200 quid. Now, a 60GB 2.5" drive doesn't cost anything like 200 quid, and the extra 77Mhz on the processor isn't going to show up in normal use). I thought the 12" iBook looked a little under spec'd and the middle one was ideal. The same is probably true if you look at desktops. Some friends on mine bought the 15" iMac with 733 G4 a year ago and they are very happy. Yes, at the time they could have spent the same amount of money (1000 quid) on a nice PC which would have been faster but for them the attraction of the design and OSX made all the difference. The overall performance of a Mac as a complete package makes them good value for money IMHO.

At CeBIT this year ...

[torpor]

... the only real items of note were the pocket, personal media players. And the really, really interesting ones were the ultra-cheap, ultra-trendy, well designed movie players, out on the periphery edges of the sprawling metropolis...

Apple, with the iPod, still have a lot of swing left in the market. They broke things wide open with iPod.

They can keep doing that. They do keep doing that. As long as they do keep doing that, they'll survive, in some form or another, as a company.

Of course, if BlueTooth fails, we'll be contending with Motorola vs. Apple in the portable media player space, and subsequently portable computing-device, soon enough.

The much-coveted Motorola linux phone, which strangely enough, did not have its own fancy display attachment, but was only available for demo by request was playing Pink, pretty darn well... I'd happily throw away my TV and watch all trash media on that thing. It is, practically, an "OSX in your pocket".

Apple just need to keep making good computers. They do make good computers, even if other people do as well.

User Error

[meehawl]

That is, until the PC gets hit by a ton of viruses, spyware, adware, trojans... which slow it down to half the speed of the Mac.

Had a PC since 1990 - never got a virus. A little prevention goes a long way.

You know OSX people are not invulnerable to viruses or trojans. I remember the Morris Worm infected mostly BSD. The current relatively safe OSX situation occurs because with with 2% market share it's not worth the ego boost for most virus kiddies to target the platform. Basically, when it comes to Macs no kiddies really care... or cared.

However, I recall in the late 1980s when Macs had quite a large market share relative to today that there were several Mac-specific viruses. But personally I'd say it's just a matter of time before OSX gets its own virus. I'd actually see the release of an OSX-specific virus or trojan as evidence of increasing market share!

Re:User Error

[Sri Lumpa]

No they are not immune (no more than Linux is) but I bet it would be much harder to make one one a Mac than on Windows.

As for you never having had a virus since 1990 (same for me) two questions:

1. How technically knowledgable are you.

2. How many less knowledgeable people do you know whose PC are not managed by you did get a virus in the last 4 years.

I'm afraid that you and me are statistical flukes and that statistically speaking it is more secure to be on Mac or on Linux or any OS beside Windows.

And if Mac OR Linux OR both get enough marketshare to attract virus writer the problem still would not be nearly as bad as today because we would then have a polyculture of OS's that would make the spreading of the virus less efficient (that is unless we start seeing .Net/Java viruses that can spread using different implementations).

Oh, BTW, I just wanted to warn you that your computer is full of viruses, but these are so stealthy that no AV software can detect them yet ;)

That's not what I'm talking about, though...

[Paradox]

I can see why people prefer a trackpad or a trackpoint. Everyone just has to choose one or the other and deal with it.

What pisses me off more is the ceasless "one button mouse" argument. It makes me angry because it is just so mindless. It's not like other machines come with a good mouse either. Inevitably, anyone who doesn't get a nice MS or Logitec optical mouse immediately goes out and buys one.

does apple need saving?

[samantha]

I am writing this on my recently acquired PowerBook G4. This is the first non-linux running beastie I have owned and loved in many a year. Yeah, I know I could put linux on it. The point is I love this computer as is so much that I have no desire to. For me that is a HUGE statement. This is quite honestly the most fun to work and play with computer I have ever owned. And I have owned and still own a LOT of computers.

So, I have a hard time believing that a company with great products and a really solid (of late anyway) platform needs to keep afloat based mostly on selling tunes and boxes for tunes. My gut is boren out by the large jump in Apple profits reported fairly recently. I don't know what the game is with this article but I am more than a little tired of reading tripe, especially here where we are supposedly getting "Stuff that matters".

My ID

[Anonymous Coward]

I finaly was able to get to my mail so here is my ID

My ID

[HenchmenResources]

sorry about the last two anon posts cookies were not allowed so i couldn't post under my ID so here it is.

iPod has very... talented people working on it

[mkiwi]

I got a chance to peek inside the labs at Cupertino (no, i don't have to sign any nda's) and the lady in charge of the iPod project is a real knockout. I mean whoa, who would have ever thought? I nearly asked her if she were available, then I remembered that I was 18 and that it wouldn't be polite. iPod's beauty comes from within the project (literally)! Do yourself a favor and meet the iPod lady.

Rant:Dell R&D Correction

[poemofatic]

Dell does no R&D.

R = Research = inventing new technologies
D = development = transforming those (new!) technologies into marketable products.

Dell may now pay the salaries of a few engineers and hardware designers who make sure certain chipsets work correctly, but this is neither R nor D, it's engineering.

IBM does R&D
Intel does R&D
Lucent does R&D
Apple does (some) R&D
SUN does R&D
Dell does a little engineering on top of the boxes it assembles.

Note that by the same standard, bug patches or standard features do not count as R&D in apple's column either. Except when the feature is sufficiently innovative to constitute a new technology (e.g. a new approach to voice recogniction, a usability breakthrough, an SMP innovation, or microprocessor design.)

I know in our current era, every engineer's fart is some new valuable IP that counts in the R&D column, but let's not kid ourselves as to what research and development really is.

Re:Rant:Dell R&D Correction

[mduell]

They may not spend on R&D for products (just assemble them... but they pay someone else to do R&D on products), but they do R&D on the business side. How else can they crank out so many computers so cheap? Really efficient supply/production.

Foolish

[virg_mattes]

Don't be daft. Nobody runs WormMaker 2002 any more. The upgrades are free, remember? Sheesh.

Seriously, though, I wouldn't revel in an OSX outbreak. It'd be a big pain in the butt. Still, the fact that there's not one in the wild yet doesn't particularly impress me, or surprise me. OSX is still a solidly based OS, so finding a hole would be a lot of work, and frankly, there aren't as many black hats with high end skills as there were in days gone by.

Virg

Linux makes it "hard"

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux and Open Source are wonderful just the way they are, but don't bitch that you don't have commercial developers lining up when Linux goes out of its way to make it hard for us to deliver software in a manner that is acceptable to us.

Microsoft quarterly server revenue: $5 billion

Linux quarterly server revenue: $960 million.

90% unit growth (free installs not counted), 68% revenue growth. What was Unix growth? Unix servers overall generated $5.1 billion in quarterly revenue, growing 0.8 percent. It was the first year-over-year growth in 11 quarters.

Did you get that through your thick skull yet? Less than 1% growth, with 11 quarters of no growth or shrinkage. Compared to Linux growth at 90%, with Linux growth continuing to accelerate.

Acceptable to you? Announcements of ports to Linux from commercial developers have been coming out hourly. Unix is dead in a couple of years. SCO knows it, Sun knows it, HP knows it, Dell knows it, IBM knows it.

Is Microsoft having nightmares over Unix? Apple? No. Out of their own mouths, Linux is their #1 threat.

Don't like Linux? Move aside, your competitors with a clearer vision and without your bias are about to eat you alive.

Have a nice day and let the door hit you on the way out.

Adobe dumps Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Adobe turns its back on Mac again

Adobe Systems announced on Tuesday that it plans to drop the Mac version of FrameMaker, the latest sign of eroding support for the Apple Computer operating system.

This is for a creative writing class, right?

[Ohreally_factor]

1) There a currently NO viruses for OS X in the wild. I highly doubt your assertion that there are as many vulnerabilities on the Mac as on the PC. Furthermore, Macs ship with exploitable functionality turned off by default, in contrast to Windows.

2) The iLife apps that come with Macs are NOT lite or LE versions. They are extremely powerful easy to use consumer applications. They are in a completely different class than the stuff that ships with windows.

3) It is well documented that Macs have much longer useful life spans than PC hardware. If you bothered to check E-bay, old mac hardware keeps it's value much longer than PC hardware.

I suggest you check your facts when you pull them out of your butt. Calling someone a liar when the facts aren't on your side is a pastime best saved for presidential campaigns, and really only make you look like an ass, when in all likelihood you are not an ass.

Real Artists

[Ohreally_factor]

Real artists ship.

And when they ship, they don't ship a half-baked load of crap.

You people are from a different planet.

[dothvader]

1) The original statement was - "there are no virus problems on a Mac". This is 100 percent not true, false, and is a BOLD FACE LIE! Now lets talk about OS X which is based on Unix. Unix has been around longer than windows and there are a lot of people (hackers) familiar with it. If Mac users think that they can't get hacked they are fooling themselves. You still need firewall and AV software. In addition, there are several viruses that can effect OS X including Simpsons and SevenDust but only in the classic environment.

2) If all you want to do is play with your machine, then the applications that come preloaded are fine on both Mac and PC. I have done both and there are features that are better on one or the other system. However, both are adequete. That they are completely different is once again totally subjective. If you are serious (professional) then you will want to purchase stand alone programs. That is how Adobe and other software developers make money.

3) The differences between Mac and PC are well documented. The gap that once existed to do a certain type of job is no longer there. Once again, the statement was about a "3 year old machine". If you are buying a 3 year old machine off of Ebay you are a FOOL! No warranty, no support etc., etc. Unless you like tinkering with antiques then you had better stick with a 1 to 2 year old machine. In that case, Macs show higher prices than PCs. That is because they had a higher price point at purchase.

It is usual, that when one suggests that someone else is an ass, that they have not considered themselves. EARTH TO MAC USERS.

Re:You people are from a different planet.

[Ohreally_factor]

1) Check your facts. Name me one Unix virus in the wild. You can't, because there are none. Name me the last time that a mac virus brought the internet to it's knees. You can't, because it never happened.

Exploits and cracking, which are a little different than viruses, are a problem for everyone, it is true. However, as I stated before, and you conveniently ignored, OS X comes with exploitable services off by default. This is not the case with a default windows installation, which is insecure by default.

2) You are still incorrect in equating the iLife suite of products that comes with purchase of a mac with the software bundled with Windows. The applications with windows are less than adequate, the iLife apps are more than adequate. Indeed they are very powerful as well as easy to use. You claim this is a subjective judgement, yet there are a raft of better third party programs to replace the "default" windows apps, while there are very few, if any, third party apps to replace that replace the iLife apps. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Adobe Photoshop Elements, which offers most of the functionality of Photoshop without features that professionals require.

I myself use Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Aftereffects, Final Cut Pro, and Commotion, so I would say I have some experience with pro applications. However, having worked with the iApps, I was amazed that they really do have more than enough power for most users, up to intermediate levels, or even pro levels (I've used iDVD to present professional materials, as have others I know. We haven't yet learned DVDSP.

On the other hand, I would call the default Windows apps barely adeqaute, if even that. I know of no one that really uses Movie Maker more than a few times. They usually begin looking for a replacement application immediately. I usually recommend the Vegas Video beginner product, Screenblast, which also offers an upgrade path to Vegas, which I think kicks Premiere's ass. Of course, if you're going to do "serious" video editing on the PC, you'll use Avid.

3) Statistics AND anecdotal evidence back me up on Macs holding their value longer than PCs, both in terms of dollar amount and in percentage of original purchase price. Calling purchasers of used macs fools is not a valid counter-argument. This sort of tactic is foolish on your part, and amounts to an ad hominem attack.

4) You'll note that I didn't call you an ass, nor did I imply you are one. I merely pointed out that your calling someone a liar gave you the appearance of being an ass. I sincerely doubt you are a fool or an ass in real life, but it's obvious you play one on slashdot, at least in this current thread.

I have no problem with your wanting to use Windows or other OSes other than Mac OS X. Too each his own. However, I invite you to join us Mac users on our higher plane of existence if you've got the guts to leave your Windows gravity well. Have a sip of the Apple Kool Aid and enter the reality distortion field. You might like it.

Mac reality

[dothvader]

Once again you have ignored the original thread and skirted my statements to suit your needs. I am not against Macs. I used one for several years before I switched to a PC. It did not fit my needs. What I am against is this cocoon of safety and superiority that Mac users profess.

1) You can not make a statement that there are no viruses for the the Mac. THAT IS A LIE!

Just because something has not happened does not mean it can't. Look at 911. 90 percent of the world uses PCs which is where the bulk of the threats have come from -- duh! OS X is based on Unix which means that there is a very real threat that hackers and code writers will turn their attention to vulnerabilities in the Mac. It is only a matter of time. You are probably safe for now but lets not ignore the threat.

2) I actually like iMovie and iPhoto and find them good programs to work with video and images. As they exist, they are better than what comes with the PC. We could sit here all year long and argue the merits of one particular program over another. However, I still prefer stand alone programs for serious work.

3) Statistics and anecdotal evidence don't mean didly when after three years there is no warranty or support. There is volumes of evidence of the failure of electromechanical equipment after three years. Monitors, hard drives, other drives etc. Granted some of this has gotten better but the operative word is three years.

In regards to calling someone a liar. I call them as I see them. Too much of the world has believed the lies of others. Do we remember Enron or WorldCom? When someone does not tell the truth they are lying - period. End of discussion.

My comments to Joe were to illustrate that is not all cut and dried which system to buy or use and lying about something only illustrates ignorance.

Re:Mac reality

[Ohreally_factor]

Let's start over with what Joe said in the context of advising someone to buy a new mac and see who is doing the twisting here.

The #1 reason is that there are no virus problems on a Mac, and no major problems with spyware, malware, and general browser hijacking.

You say this is a lie, because in the past, in the pre-OS X days, there were a few (a very few) viruses. I believe Joe is giving his reasons for recommending macs today. There is no indication that he is advising people to buy an older OS mac. Thus his statement is truthful, as I read it. Macs as they are now are not plagued by any viruses, directly. We do suffer from the epidemics that plague Windows computers, but indirectly, not because our machines are infected.

The statement that there are currently no viruses for Macs is valid and true.

Could a virus be developed for Mac OS X or Unix? Certainly. It's quite possible, even probable, but because of the system archiitecture, it is unlikely to be as damaging as your garden variety Windows virus. At any rate, no one has said there never will be.

Joe also mentions spyware. There very well could be spyware that runs under OS X, but I don't know of any mac user that has had problems with spyware. Not one. I know many Windows users that seem to constantly have problems with spyware.

The #2 reason is the digital hub aspect. Adult's want mostly the same things from their home computers: Music, Digital Photos, Email, Internet Access, and Instant Messaging. All things that a Mac does better or the same as a PC minus most of the security woes and difficulty of setup. Most of the stuff they want to do will work right out of the box, nothing to install or mess with.

You called this a lie and a stretch, then tried to change the argument to be about professional users, when Joe specifically is talking about home users and home computers. Ordinary people.

The #3 reason is investment. After 3 years, you can sell your Mac and still get a lot of money for it. Try selling a 3 year old PC and you will get a fraction of what a Mac resells for.

You also said this is also a lie, but you haven't refuted it, nor have you refuted the evidence I provided for it. Bringing up warranties is irrelevant, and calling the many people who purchase valuable older equipment fools because you wouldn't do the same is arrogant. You bring up component failure, but that doesn't really prove your point either. Maybe you are used to cheap crappy components in your computers.

One of the worst lies is to call someone who is telling the truth a liar, when confronted with evidence that they are right. It's a form of intellectual violence. You should be ashamed of yourself. You should be twice as ashamed for somehow trying to use 9/11 to butress your "argument". That just struck me as a weird non-sequitar, to be honest.