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> So let me get this straight - you think I have been brainwashed by watching TV but you know the truth.
> May I ask where you learned this truth? Was it from TV? Was it from a newspaper? Do you honestly think
> the press in your country is fair and impartial but the press in mine isn't? It sounds like you have been brainwashed.


> May I ask where you learned this truth?

Sure! I read around. I went to a library, I read some history books. I spoke to people living in countries
like Israel over the net. I had the fortune to speak to a holidaying Isralie in person on New Year's.
He didn't have a good thing to say about the US. He was happy the towers fell like a cheap tent.
For the record he didn't like Palestinians, or the war between the two Races.
And yes, he'd served time in the military.

> It sounds like you have been brainwashed.

Yet I'm the one who's got something to say apart from "Kill terrorists, the US rocks, if you disagree you're obviously
wrong!"


> Where exactly are you talking about? Saudi Arabia?
> Do you think we erected any bases without permission?

I'll concede here. I couldn' find out much about US military bases in the 20 mins I spent looking.
My personal opinion, however, is that your military presence in many countries is unwelcome and resented by the common
populace.



>No, I don't we are innocent. But I do think that we try to be good.
> What separates me from you is that I actually vote for people who I think
> will make the right decisions in my name regarding our relations with other countries.

LOL. I'm 20 and I've voted in about 6 elections all up, 1 of them a federal election another 1 a by-election.
I feel I voted for the most responsible candidate, that's what elections are (technically) about.
Contrary to popular belief, the US isn't the only country on the planet to have democratic elections.
Hell, isn't it true that 25% of your citizens vote in elections ? Over here, (Australia) it's compulsary.

What seperates you and I is blind Nationalism.


> I know it doesn't always work but what else can I do?
> The point is I try to do the right thing.

Agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you, yourself do a thing, apart from vote every now and then.
You could give blood, you could give money, or join the Red Cross or some other charity organisation.
Odds are you've got a job and a life though, which rules these out. In that case you could educate yourself
and your friends on *why this all happened in the first place*.

> The terrorists on 911 did the opposite - the tried to kill innocent people.
> Doesn't that make any sense to you?

Does it make sense to me ? Yes it does. Those people were not innocent of electing governments.
Governments who,by their actions brought this upon themselves and their citizens. Why was the US attacked
and not (not so great) Britan, Iraq, Canada or some other country. Consider that.

They may be extremists and Terrorists, but the world works on cause and effect.
That they use brutal, 'underhand' tactics is part of terror warfare, they don't have large organised armies to
mount an assault with.

> What would you suggest we do in response???

Hold an international summit on US foreign policy ? Oh that's right, you're above peer review.
Rooting out and destroying the Taliban was logical. Now there are wars in the Israel area which you support.
Making an effort to solve these problems beyond 'killing all threats to US citizens' might help too.
Stop screwing over so many countries, weather this be through trade sanctions, supplying arms or whatever else.


>I definitely think you are the one who is brainwashed.
Keep telling yourself that mate :o) In the meantime, get an education.

General Links
Why is America Hated in the Middle East?
ATTACK ON AMERICA: AN ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE (Professor Ali Khan,Washburn University School of Law)
The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers


-- Human Rights Links --
U.S Foreign Policy and Human Rights
Organization of American States human rights panel opposes Bush policy on POWs
Human Rights Watch.
Human Rights and the Drug war.
Afghan prisoners arrive in Cuba
Amnesty International USA

USA.

Besides, who needs nukes when you have thermobarics? All the terror of mini-nukes, none of the fall-out, and you get a chemical poison-gas weapon as a pleasant, non-Hague Convention side-effect...

The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique--and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.. If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents.The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique--and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.. If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents.
Defense Intelligence Agency, "Fuel-Air and Enhanced-Blast Explosive Technology--Foreign," April 1993. Obtained by Human Rights Watch under the US FOIA

The effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, and thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs,and possibly blindness.
Central Intelligence Agency, "Conventional Weapons Producing Chemical-Warfare-Agent-Like Injuries," February 1990. Unclassified document.

Because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue.it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate."
Defense Intelligence Agency, "Future Threat to the Soldier System, Volume I; Dismounted Soldier--Middle East Threat," September 1993, p. 73. Obtained by Human Rights Watch under the US FOIA

Source for these quotes.

(a) In General -- It is unlawful to manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any interactive digital device that does not include and utilize certified security technologies that adhere to the security system standards adopted under section 104. -- http://216.110.42.179/docs/hollings.090701.html

Sharing music can take away my right to own firearms? It's a felony now and <sarcasm>felons are all dangerous criminals who shouldn't have guns</sarcasm>. In 15 states, a felony conviction removes your right to vote forever. LOSING THE VOTE:The Impact of Felony Disenfranchisement Laws in the United States

As for someone else's arguement that "I won't buy it"- great, me too. The two of us can spend some serious time trying to keep today's computers running for the rest of our lives because laws make us unwilling to buy new equipment. It will be easy as pie to market ourselves on resume's in a decade. "Still able to operate equipment from the 00's" Windows BlahX experience? nah, I don't have a machine that can run that. Apache 6.03 experience? No, but I've got 10 years experience with version 2.0

I'm trying to find a group that will tell politicans not to abuse me. EFF seems interested in doing that but they move at a snails pace. YourCongress.com seems to be interested in getting the people's voice to the politicans but the editors seem more interested in being funny then talking about issues. What groups do people use/belong to/know about that are active in fighting for geek rights?

And you think this doesn't happen in America? Brings to mind the old Botswanan idiom: "The gorilla cannot see how ugly his sunken eyes are."

For accounts of rape, torture and abuse in American prisons, you can start with Amnesty International, then move on to Human Rights Watch (whose home page as I type this screams "Stop the Death Penalty in the USA") which currently features a report entitled Nowhere to Hide detailing the abusive conditions in women's prisons in Michigan, amongst at least a dozen other articles on human rights abuses in the American penal system.

The PRC is far from perfect. I've never claimed otherwise. What really raises my hackles, however, is this perception by Americans that they are somehow superior to everyone else. Americans would get along much better with the rest of the world if they were start by admitting that all of us have a long way to go.

And you think this doesn't happen in America? Brings to mind the old Botswanan idiom: "The gorilla cannot see how ugly his sunken eyes are."

For accounts of rape, torture and abuse in American prisons, you can start with Amnesty International, then move on to Human Rights Watch (whose home page as I type this screams "Stop the Death Penalty in the USA") which currently features a report entitled Nowhere to Hide detailing the abusive conditions in women's prisons in Michigan, amongst at least a dozen other articles on human rights abuses in the American penal system.

The PRC is far from perfect. I've never claimed otherwise. What really raises my hackles, however, is this perception by Americans that they are somehow superior to everyone else. Americans would get along much better with the rest of the world if they were start by admitting that all of us have a long way to go.

C) Red Flag is under the control of the China Academy of Sciences, headed by Jiang Mianheng, the son of the president Jiang Zemin
I don't consider that as an argument against Red Flag Linux, but others may take a different view.

Actually in this case the rules were made by an international convention in Geneva which pretty clearly defines the status of fighters dressed as civilians...

It also clearly defines a due process for determining that status. Which is not being followed.

I'll give you that. A lot hinges on "shall any doubt arise" The status of Al Queada members is not in doubt as they manifestly fail to meet the requirments of Article 4. The closest they come is article 4.2 but fail to meet conditions b. (having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance) and c. (That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.) That being said I think the US should dot it's i's and cross it's t's and have a tribunal rule on the status of individual detainee's.

As for Taliban fighters they HAVE been legally granted POW status under the Geneva convention even though most of them also fail to meet the conditions in Article 4. And even the Al Queada prisoners are being accorded many of the rights granted to POW's - most importantly the right to be monitored by the IRC.

Nonsense. Not only is it questionable who's being better or worse treated,

Reports by Human Rights Watch, and the International Society for Human Rights sugget that it is not really all that questionable. The cells that the Al Queada prisoners are in are not as cramped as the reported 3x3 meters with 15 prisoners, they do have access to medical treatment, they are not being held in solitary indefinitely, they are not being held incommunicado, they are being monitored by the IRC and since they are being monitored I assume their guards aren't beating them.

We have several orders of magnitude less influence over how political prisoners are treated in Cuba.

I was responding to a Swede with about as much influence on either country who brought up Cuba as a nation we "don't like" just because they "successfully stood up to us." That statement and the coincidence of the detainees being held in Cuba caused me to muse on those critics of the US who's commitment to human rights goes out the window when the perpetrator of the abuses is fashionably left-wing. The hysterical tone from the left internationally about the prisoners of the US military in Guantanamo contrasts unflatteringly with the dead silence from the same quarter when the subject is political prisoners just over the fence.

I think many people with overly liberal tendencies tend to jump on issues like this. In my experience, most Americans are pretty fed up with the justice system as it is.

They are fed up not because of mass corruption, or because many innocents are wrong imprisioned, but rather that too many people who are guilty are just not getting punished at all.

Prison is punishment and it just seems like we, as Americans, are not actually punishing anyone with prison. It's one thing to get up in arms about a system that is doing too much, but who's really going to take up the call to make prisons harsher.

It's not exactly a cause that's likely to make many friends. The idea of male prisoners being raped by other prisons is in so many ways an appealing idea _only_ because there is a sense of justice. The thought that many violent criminals out there are being humilated in the most de-masculating of manners gives one a certain sense of justice.

Of course, that is not reality. Any educated person can realize that. Rape is a horrific crime and noone deserves to be raped.

I don't necessarily regret my comment though, because it is drawn from the same desire to avoid the real problem as your call to help the inmates. Our justice system just doesn't work. It needs to be fixed.

I really won't shed many tears though over prisoners being raped. Instead, I'll say them for the much larger problems that we as a society face. Most inmates are just lifeless bodies, consumed by a life of drug abuse and poverty.

It disturbs me more that these individuals live such empty lives than it does that they may be physically assulted.

It's like the whole abortion issue, everyone is either pro-choice or pro-life, but noone is pro-helping the people who may be thinking of getting abortions overcome the problems that would lead them to that point in life.

So, if you really want to discuss things seriously, let's address the real issues and not dance around liberal nonsense.

Yes, sherman was distributing bomb making information. So did my highschool library. i learned how to make contact explosives, thermite, learned about fuel air explosions (and had some unsuccessful trials) and in class friends told me how to make pipe bombs out of common household items. and if you havn't already noticed, that sort of info is available from thousands of websites and before that bbs.

so this case had better not be about distribution of information (information wants to be free, right?). he already admitted to defacing websites (he should have kept quiet) so they should fine him or give him something comparable to the punishment for graffiti. either way, the way they did it seems more like an intimidation tactic to keep people from doing what he did.

The president just recently created a system of military tribunals where you can be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed without even being told the crime you were charged with, without the prosecution having shown probable cause before arrest, without hearing any evidence presented against you, without the ability to cross-examine witnesses, without your choice of counsel, without the crime specifically calling for a death sentence, without a presumption of innocence, without "beyond a shadow of a doubt" or even "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof, without public scrutiny, and without a right of appeal.

This system makes a military court-martial look like a hippy love-in.

Now please re-read the Declaration of Independence and tell me whether the guys that wrote it sound more like Bush or this punk "terrorist" kid.

The kid may have talked about overthrowing the constitution, but Bush has done it.

And if your response is that if you don't like it, you should change it by working your way up the corporate ladder until you are CEO of a large enough corporation so that you can buy yourself or a friend into office, spare me. Yeah, and if you don't like the U.S. government, why don't you go to some country the U.S. government is bombing or propping up some hellish dictator -- now that's a great idea!

Bush has made it perfectly clear -- you are either with him or against him. If you are against him, you are a terrorist and they intend to find you no matter what country you reside in. Clearly Bush is not quite that powerful, yet -- and one hopes that countries that care about human rights will be able to reign in some of his powers, but the point is that if you don't like the U.S. government you're only real options are to try to change it or keep your head down to avoid it's wrath.

And you won't change it by saving your pennies to work within the system -- with lobbyists, bribes, and the corporate media. The current system has evolved to make sure that we can't change it from within. At the same time, violence is only a successful tactic if you are already powerful -- if you are weak, it will only hasten your destruction (look at what happened to the U.S. militia movement after Oklahoma City). And advocating violence without the intention or the ability to carry it out is the height of stupidity.

The alternative is to organize where we have the most power (whether we realize it or not) -- with our coworkers or neighbors, in schools, professional associations, clubs, consumer groups, etc. And rather than organize for lofty meaningless phrases, organize for real gains that benefit us and those around us. Much of Bush's attack on Americans has taken the shape of less job security, longer hours, etc. at work. It is possible to resist these attacks, and it is much more effective if the resistance is organized and collective rather than disorganized and individual.

As passive voters and pleaders, we are powerless, but organized and actively fighting back where we have power can work -- that's how it has worked with every social improvement in the last 1000 years or so, at least.

That being said, I am really bothered by the specifics of this raid. If the Feds had real evidence that Austin was promoting terrorism, they should have arrested him. Instead, they used their "suspicions" to justify shutting down his web site. Which doesn't accomplish much, since there's no information on raisethefist.com that isn't widely available. I don't care for fertilizer bombs or web worms either, but censoring information about them is a lost cause.

The nasty truth is that this action is part of a general strategy to shut down, at least temporarily, coordinating elements in the anti-globalization movement. This is something that becomes a priority every time there's an public event that might be targeted by the movement.

This might not seem like a big deal. So some mentally challenged anarchists lose their web sites for a few days, so what? But that's only the tip of the iceberg. During previous episodes anybody possessing a communication device (including cell phones and PDAs) was subject to arrest.

The whole strategy is based on the idea that law enforcement needs to interfere with civilian lines of communication. Austin and his crowd don't deserve much sympathy -- but the way in which the cops are targeting him is dangerous to all of us.

Okay, are these articles in the Indian Constitution the 'most foul extensions of the american affirmative action system' that you're refering to?


Article 14. Equality before law. -The State shall not deny to any person equality before the law or the equal protection of the laws within the territory of India.

Article 15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth. -

(1) The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them.

(2) No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to-

(a) access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and places of public entertainment; or

(b) the use of wells, tanks, bathing ghats, roads and places of public resort maintained wholly or partly out of State funds or dedicated to the use of the general public.

(3) Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for women and children.

(4) Nothing in this article or in clause (2) of article 29 shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes.

Article 16. Equality of opportunity in matters of public employment. -

(1) There shall be equality of opportunity for all citizens in matters relating to employment or appointment to any office under the State.

(2) No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, descent, place of birth, residence or any of them, be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect of, any employment or office under the State.

(4) Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from making any provision for the reservation of appointments or posts in favour of anybackward class of citizens which, in the opinion of the State, is not adequately represented in the services under the State.

Article 17. Abolition of Untouchability. -"Untouchability" is abolished and its practice in any form is forbidden. The enforcement of any disability arising out of "Untouchability" shall be an offence punishable in accordance with law.


Please review this if you'd like to educate yourself further: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-02. htm#P350_19723.

Sorry to point out the reality that social change lags behind government policy (even 52 years after...). But notice how I was able to disagree with you without insulting you personally. I suggest you try it.

The BLU-82 Commando Vault (also known as the Daisy Cutter) is a 15,000 lb. thermobaric bomb, not "hyperbaric" as he calls it (although I suppose it makes sense in the way he uses it). And they certainly aren't dropped from unmanned planes. They are pushed out on skids from the back of Special Operations C-130s (or perhaps AC-130s).

For more on the Daisy Cutter and other thermobaric weapons, check the following links:

• Fuel air explosives
• In Afghanistan
• Psychological effect
• FAE animation
• Gulf War usage

Also notable: The bomb used in the beginning of Outbreak (1995) was a fuel air explosive similar to the Daisy Cutter.

I'm trying to remember the specifics of the huge dam failure that happened many years ago. I was surprised to see it on the top ten human-made disasters of all time show on TLC a couple of months ago. (TLC's search on their site sucks) I had never heard of it (as most of the western world, it seems).

Ah, turned up this page on human rights watch with google. An

excerpt:

China's longstanding restrictions on public access to information, debate and decision-making about large dam-construction projects have had fatal consequences in the past. An example was the catastrophic collapse in August 1975 of two large water-conservancy projects in Henan Province, the Banqiao dam and the Shimantan dam. Hitherto almost entirely unreported beyond the confines of China's top party leadership and elite hydrological circles, this event represented by far the largest known dam disaster in human history. In the resulting floods, famine and health epidemics, fatalities amounted to anywhere between 86,000 (the government's internally-released figure) and 230,000 (an estimate produced by eight senior Chinese critics of the Three Gorges project).

I'm trying to remember the specifics of the huge dam failure that happened many years ago. I was surprised to see it on the top ten human-made disasters of all time show on TLC a couple of months ago. (TLC's search on their site sucks) I had never heard of it (as most of the western world, it seems).

Ah, turned up this page on human rights watch with google. An

excerpt:

China's longstanding restrictions on public access to information, debate and decision-making about large dam-construction projects have had fatal consequences in the past. An example was the catastrophic collapse in August 1975 of two large water-conservancy projects in Henan Province, the Banqiao dam and the Shimantan dam. Hitherto almost entirely unreported beyond the confines of China's top party leadership and elite hydrological circles, this event represented by far the largest known dam disaster in human history. In the resulting floods, famine and health epidemics, fatalities amounted to anywhere between 86,000 (the government's internally-released figure) and 230,000 (an estimate produced by eight senior Chinese critics of the Three Gorges project).

Dunno where you live but in the United States cops are emphatically NOT
allowed to just start whupping somebody's ass.

Of course not, but I do happen to live in the United States, born and raised in
Washington DC and I can tell you quite assuredly that even tho cops are
NOT allowed to whup someone's ass, they can and often times
do. In my hometown of Washington DC, there have been several cases of police
brutality. I have witnessed with my own eyes, a person being assaulted by 2
police officers, and after about 15 minutes of being beaten, (not resisting,
mind you, the guy was basically huddled down in a doorway covering his head) he
started to fight back, more in an attempt to get away then to cause harm. This
resulted in about 15 cops arriving on the scene, standing shoulder to shoulder
obscuring the view, while 3 more cops proceeded to "whup his ass". When I made
my previous statement, I was referring to an incident where a couple of police
officers were assaulting a motorist. What made the incident memorable was that
one of the police officers had forgotten to turn off his dash camera (which
recorded part of the incident) and went back to turn it off. I can dig up the
incident if anyone wishes, I believe it happened in Florida. Check http://www.hrw.org/reports98/police/
for more reports of this nature. Sorry to have made such a lengthy post,
but it needed to be said.

Also see here
[http://www.copcrimes.com/] for more info.

SealBeater

Here's a six year old report on blinding weapons of the US military.

• In Spain, authorities can shut down newspapers and jail editors if they feel the publications defend Basque terrorists. (link)
• And regarding the UK/IRA ...
  • ... permits a police officer to arrest without a warrant a person whom she or he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty
  • persons charged under the EPA or PTA are tried in Diplock courts by a single judge sitting without a jury
  • a detainee can be held for up to seven days without charge
  (link)

This isn't to knock the UK or Spain (both wonderful countries) it's mainly to point out that pretty much all countries react the same way to terrorism

I experience a similar phenomenon at the non-profit I work at. There is no Web department. Nor even a real Web budget. Our 'Web Master' is in the Communications Department. I'm the 'Web Advocate' in our Advocacy Department. Our Publications Director does his own coding. Our IT Director has a consultant that tweaks our server box - which is now in-house since our previous host merged and lost what little brain power they had left. There is no central managing authority or oversight and instead we have an 'IT Committee' that meets every other week to try and do the job of a Web Director. The budget is all ad-hoc and barely gets us through. We also manage content in six languages, relying mainly on volunteers and interns. I argue for a Web Department and a budget, but org. management just doesn't want to hear it. Needless to say there is nothing resembling a strategy or plan. It's a constant battle just to get through the week.

Sixteen Palestinians have so far been killed since 28 September 2000, by Israeli settlers; eight were shot to death, three were killed in hit-and-run incidents, two were tortured to death, two were killed recently when settlers fired at their car causing it to hit a lamppost, and one was killed by a rock hurled by a settler.

Maybe it's time to visit Rio?

Don't assume that better policy in one area necessarily translates into better policies in all other areas.

Rio's murder rate is 61 per 100,000. That's ten times as high as the United States in general, and more than twice as high as Flint, Michigan, which is widely regarded as one of those places that normal human beings just don't voluntarily enter.

Ah yes, remind me...

Which country has a higher percentage of its population in prison?

Which administration is more likely to launch a missile attack? Which may or may not hit its target?

Or crash their secret spy plane, for that matter?

Which country recently lost its seat on the U.N. human rights committee?

In other words, you probably have to buy one from Russia.

Yes, that could never happen. With Russia being so stable and all.

the US is pushing for increased Canadian border security and unified policies on security and entry into North America

No one ever gets anything past the Canadians.

suitcase nukes are low-yield.

Uhhhh... Yah.

After all, look how nice the world is being to China, what with giving them the Olympics and all (worked really well in Berlin in 1936, didn't it?).

This is Yes, you are absolutely right. Jesse Owens' televised humiliation of "Aryan superiority" having lead to WWII and all...

You have to understand that the Mutual Assured Destruction policies of the Cold War don't apply to unstable and fundamentalist regimes.

Hmm. Strange that the rest of the civilized world seems to disagree. Of course, I'm sure this is the only time that Bush would dare propose breaking an anti-nuke treaty. I mean, any guy who's cutting the EPA by 6.5% while giving an additional 13.6 billion to defense has his priorities totally straight. That, and his unbiased choices to head the EPA show that he isn't swayed by special interests. Which is why ultimately, other countries everywhere love and respect and cherish him and support his wise policies.

Don't let the facts stop you, though, Michael.

Yeah, whatever man.

W
-------------------

Friend, if you want to judge another nation by it's atrocities, you'd damn well better be sure that your own nation has a clean slate...

The good news is he likely won't serve any time.

The bad news is quite bad though. As a felon he is legally barred from many rights full citizens (which he NO LONGER IS in the eyes of the law) have.

It is illegal for him to own a firearm ever again everywhere, (in some states, not his state of Oregon) to ever vote again, and of special interest to people in the I.T. field:

It is illegal for him to work in certain technical jobs ever again. Such as working for a certification authority in at least one State.

Also, a lot of people are under the impression that all felons are intrinsically untrustworthy individuals.

The above still applies even if the persons motives were pure.

P.S. Randal Schwartz would likely have not been convicted if he were in Nevada. The laws here provide for implied authorization of an employee to access employer's systems unless their is "clear and convincing" evidence to the contrary. He still could've been fired though (Nevada is an at will state).

The moral: Don't try to do any favors. If you want to break into systems as a good guy, find a way to do it LEGALLY.

Consult a lawyer for legal advice.

The thing about schools which makes this unbearable is that schools is a closed institution: in effect, a prison. Your freedom is taken from you. You cannot get away from your tormentors. You cannot not go. In these days of 'human rights' where is the liberty of the child forced to go to school against his or her will? Where is the security of person of the child exposed to the schoolyard bullies?

For me, this is all thirty years ago. I don't want to still be feeling bitter about it, but I am. I don't want to still be feeling angry about it, but I am. I don't want my self-confidence to still be damaged by it, but it is. I would have liked to have had children, but I never have had, because I could not face putting anyone through the hell that was my childhood.

Guys, please publish this book. Publish it in the old-fashioned way on flattened dead trees, so that the teachers, the governors, the parents can read it. It's no use publishing it here. We have been through the baptism of blood and fire and pain. We are the converted. We don't need to read this message (and in truth I can scarcely bear to). The people out there who do need to read it are mostly still not adapted to reading online. For the sake of all the kids out there who are going through now what I went through thirty-five years ago, publish it.

China:

• Amnesty International Annual Report on Human Rights, 2000
• Human Rights Watch World Report, 2000

United States of America :

• Amnesty International Annual Report on Human Rights, 2000
• Human Rights Watch World Report, 2000

My take on it: China commits some serious violations of human rights, and I'd be worried about the smart card IDs there. But I'm a U.S. citizen, and I'd also be worried about smart card IDs here. We've got our own human rights issues to work out. I'm an optimist, so I think that the U.S. won't turn into big brother, but I also think this is possible only through the constant vigilance of people like you and me.

China:

• Amnesty International Annual Report on Human Rights, 2000
• Human Rights Watch World Report, 2000

United States of America :

• Amnesty International Annual Report on Human Rights, 2000
• Human Rights Watch World Report, 2000

My take on it: China commits some serious violations of human rights, and I'd be worried about the smart card IDs there. But I'm a U.S. citizen, and I'd also be worried about smart card IDs here. We've got our own human rights issues to work out. I'm an optimist, so I think that the U.S. won't turn into big brother, but I also think this is possible only through the constant vigilance of people like you and me.

Last I heard, the biggest contributor to GWB's campaign is Enron Corp. This company has been involved in terrible human rights violations in India; essentially, one of their subsidiaries paid the local police directly to abuse protestors and their families. (see also the Human Rights Watch report)

This is one of the most blatant and well-documented current cases of a corporation being involved in human rights abuses.

More info on GWB's ties to Enron here.

disks, tape, cds... they all have a relatively short lifespan. picture storing data in mice, just feed them and keep them warm. ev en if th e parents die the children will have the artificial chromosomes... (that is unless they recombine, in which case all of your documents or whatever are worthless....)

Some anonymous coward dun said:

Oh, yes. Didn't notice that there. But I'm not talking about persecuting a group becuause of race or colour, I'm talking about helping a group of people who need help overcoming their genetic problems, which in turn will benefit society. Haven't you ever read The Selfish Gene - people are controlled by their genes. We need to be aware of people with such genetic flaws so that they can never pose a danger to society.

Just as a minor note or three, in case you didn't know:

1) Much of what happened in Nazi Germany in regards to the Holocaust was actually based on both eugenics programs in the United States and the committment laws in place then. (Back then, you could legally be involuntarily committed to an insane asylum just for being "different" or "rebellious"--even as an adult--and most states had laws mandating sterilisation for all "mental defectives", that is, anyone who had been committed to a mental institution. I'll also note that in those days once one was committed it was next to impossible to ever leave; it literally took major reforms in the 1960's to committment laws to fix this.)

2) Much of the actual horror of the Holocaust actually started with first the involuntary committment and sterilisation, then the outright murder, of "mental defectives" and other handicapped persons. (Yes, this was even before they started on the Jewish, Catholic and homosexual populations--and everyone thought it was a Good Thing because eugenics were seen as a Great Cure to things like insanity, people being born crippled, etc.)

2a) As a minor side note to the above--most of Mengele's "experiments" were done in hospital settings to children of Holocaust victims who were involuntarily committed to hospitals.

3) If one doesn't think being labeled as a "mental defective"--rightly or wrongly--doesn't affect one's chances in life, ask any of the orphans who are held in "defectives orphanages" in various countries that were formerly part of the old USSR (or Romania, for that matter)--more info here. Hell, for that matter, ask anyone who has publically been revealed in the US to have suffered from a mental disorder how devastating it can be (one of the Kennedys was involuntarily committed, for one; at least one US Presidential candidate actually lost the nomination after it was revealed he had suffered from depression; persons with mental illness have a far harder time getting and keeping jobs than the general population, Americans with Disabilities Act or no [usually, just as with age and occasionally sex discrimination, they find some other excuse to not hire or to fire the person once a history of mental illness shows up in a background check]...persons who have had a history of mental illness (with or without violent tendencies) are also prohibited from many things Americans tend to consider as rights, such as owning a gun (even for hunting) or, in several states, even driving (which, outside of major cities, can actually lock you out of not only jobs but even treatment for mental illness).)

4) Rights for juveniles in the US have been rolled back considerably since the 1980's; pretty much, the legal criteria for involuntarily committing a kid is nearly the same as it is for adults back in the Bad Old Days of the 30's where one could end up in a mental hospital for merely being "different" (all it takes is to convince a parent, or failing that, a judge; the strict legal requirements in place for adults generally don't apply to those under 18). Kids can already be involuntarily committed to mental hospitals by stuff as mere as the recommendation of their high school counselor--stuff like W.A.V.E. will only make things far worse, truly sending things back to the Bad Old Days.

5) Not all mental illness is genetic. In the worst kinds (bipolar illness and schizophrenia) there is a definite tendency that is probably genetically determined, but even then only fifty percent of identical twins will develop schizophrenia if their twin has it--in other words, there are probably also environmental factors involved. The same is probably true, to a greater or lesser extent, with the entire spectrum of "autistic spectrum" "disorders" (which go all the way from severe autism to Asperger's (which one is high-functioning, and there are a surprising number of geeks who have a touch of Asperger's) to hyperlexia (mostly you just have trouble "reading" folks and with speech, but reading skills are actually better than normal-- hyperlexic kids might not talk till four or five, but it isn't unuusal for them to be reading at kindegarten/1st-grade level at age two or three and to be reading as advanced as high-school level by first or second grade)...there is a genetic tendency in some cases, but some of it is environmental and most of it is a mix of the two. For depression specifically, some depression is linked with genetic tendencies, but a fair amount is just iatrogenic (there is no family history) or even the result of environmental factors (severe abuse, especially emotional or spiritual (religious-based) abuse, WILL cause depression in darn near any sane individual; depression is extremely common in walkaways from religious cults, and the highest known rate of suicide in teens exists with gay teens in fundamentalist households) or even cultural factors (the Japanese have a strong tradition against the disgrace of one's family or one's self, and if one does disgrace one's self or gives one's family a bad name committing suicide is actually seen as the honourable way out).

6) Most of the kids who blow away other kids have either been severely abused--not just at school but almost constantly--and most also have serious underlying personality disorders. Personality disorders are one of the few disorders that are thought to not have much of a genetic basis (save in some cases) but are the result of something going Very Wrong in early development--like when they were children. A history of abuse, oddly, can cause a personality disorder to develop (especially in the case of more violent people--there is a very strong correlation between childhood abuse, especially physical and severe emotional (and, according to some studies, religious) abuse, and the development of severe personality disorders that lead to violence). In the Paducah shootings, for instance, there are some hints that the kid could have been trying to walk away from fundamentalism; there are indications the Columbine shooters had long-standing personality disorders.

7) There is a rather healthy industry here in the United States of private mental hospitals and teen psychiatrists--often working with insurance companies--that basically tell parents that their children need at the least psychotherapy and/or Prozac--and more often than not, institutionalisation--for behaviours that sometimes are part of normal teenhood. Pharmaceutical companies make a minor killing off of giving kids Prozac and Ritalin (in fact, the problem is so bad here--kids as young as three are now being given Ritalin and Prozac even though the longterm effects of giving kids that young such powerful drugs is unknown--that even the FDA and Presidential committees are asking people to please not give kids that young psychoactive drugs until proper studies have been done); it is not at all uncommon for private mental hospitals here in the States to hold a patient exactly as long as the insurance company will pay (typically one to two months) and then dismiss the kid (even if the kid is well or was never sick to begin with). It is bad enough that even investigative programs with newspapers and TV have reported on the "teen mental health industry" here in the States...it's also, sadly, not uncommon for parents who are sick of dealing with their kids to have them committed for "depression" or have "out-of-control warrants" swore out on their kids to have them involuntarily committed...some parents even drop off their kids at the mental hospital whilst they take vacations. :P

(As a minor aside on this--if W.A.V.E. had been in affect whilst I was in high school or even elementary school, it is entirely likely that not only would I have been profiled but probably involuntarily committed until I was 18. I had some problems growing up (yes, I was depressed--the result of emotional, occasional physical, and longstanding religious abuse--alas, at that time neither social services nor anyone else seemed to recognise that religious abuse even existed [this was just around the time of the first televangelist scandals here Stateside] nor that teens could suffer abuse without "bringing it on themselves", which didn't help matters) and as it was, I was profiled and got to go through most of my middle and high-school years with the official label of Fucking Nutter Kid even without the wonderful things known as W.A.V.E. and other "geek profiling" tools. In any case, all the visits to the shrink, "special programs", the initial visit to the "teen ward" when the school no longer wanted to deal with the complaints that I was being severely bullied at school, and my parents threatening to send me back to aforementioned "teen ward" when I tried to be the least bit assertive didn't help; getting out at the age of 25 from that toxic situation has begun the process of healing, though I admit I've a long way to go (I have a bad habit of kicking myself in the arse and worrying too much--probably the result of the abuse I suffered--which makes me depressed sometimes, and which nothing short of time and relearning is going to help--all the Prozac in the world isn't going to fix how my folks essentially used the Bible, the shrink, and the occasional belt and fist as weapons to hurt me). Needless to say, I've wondered at times if this has affected me getting a job (I've had a hard time getting jobs, even with qualifications above and beyond what they're asking for); I know for a fact it's affected me with social interactions (not just people freaking because of my history--I don't have much idea of what a normal teenhood consists of, and I have a very hard time trusting anyone because when I've asked for help I've usually been kicked in the nuts over it). I also saw and experienced a fair amount of the abuse that goes on in the "teen mental health industry"--including the kids who ended up getting committed when it was the parents that could've used psychiatric help--and what with the age of Columbine and Geek Profiling and sillybuggers like W.A.V.E. I can only imagine it's gotten even worse nowadays. Nearly bad enough to put me off having kids altogether, in fact (I sure as hell don't want them going through what I've had to go through, and right now I don't trust myself to have kids just yet)...so, well, I know all too well of what I speak. I ended up in the "Teen Mental Health Industry" basically for being bullied (and an incompetent middle-school principal and counselor who didn't want to deal with the bullies) and for beginning to walk away from a Bible-based cult my parents were (and still are) involved in and starting to get the sense something was Seriously Bent in my family. (I'm only now starting to realise just HOW bent it was.))

My worry is this--How many kids are going to end up getting churned up in the machine that is the "Teen Mental Health Industry" who literally haven't done anything other than be gay and have the shitty luck to be born in a house of raving fundies (all the Prozac in the world won't help that, either--about the only thing that WILL help is getting the kid the hell out of the house, and even then he's still gonna be depressed because his family has essentially disowned him for something out of his control), or who gets the living shite beaten out of him both at school (by bullies) and at home (by Mom and Dad) and who might act gothy or tough as a means to try to protect himself, or the kid who has the cojones to be Wiccan or atheist or [insert non-conservative-Protestant-Christianity religion here] in a sea of fundamentalist Christians (this isn't uncommon in parts of the US--our Supreme Court is now taking a case on whether prayers should be allowed at football games which involves a school district largely populated with fundamentalist Christians--the people who have protested the prayers (including Catholics, some Baptists, Jewish folk, and an atheist) have been harassed and beaten in school...in one case involving school prayer here, a person who protested sectarian school prayers in Alabama was literally run out of town by the local fundies), or who is trying to walk away from a coercive group Mom and Dad are involved in, or who dares to be different enough to arouse the ire or fear of the students, parents, or community...there are going to be a lot of kids caught up in that meatgrinder as a result, which is going to result in a lot of pissed-off kids who are pretty much going to be unemployable (both because of the "history of mental illness" and because, well, even compared to regular public schools, "schools for the emotionally disturbed"--which is where these kids will likely end up, even if not committed--have Base Minimum educational standards, and at times literally have to get into partnerships with either vocational schools or gifted/talented magnet schools to even provide educational opprotunities to those kids that don't drop out after about their junior year or go back to regular school--and unless you show some real spark of intelligence, like I was lucky enough to do, you will be shunted into a voc-ed program, probably either nursing or body-shop)... if anything, it might make the problem worse. (Hell, if you know you're going to be profiled and probably committed because the other kids Plain Don't Like You, and you get hell beaten out of you anyways...and you know once you end up committed it's pretty much going to be on your permanent record and will follow you around for life, making it almost impossible for you to be employed or possibly even get health insurance (you folks in the UK are lucky--you at least have Public Health Service; folks in the US who don't have insurance who are mentally ill usually end up either in the state mental institutions or on the streets because they're SOL)...what is there to lose, really?) Kids, both sane and mentally-ill, are going to get hurt BAD by this crap...

Then again, we've got Tipper Bloody PMRC Gore pushing this crap on one end and Bush pushing for them to just go ahead and lock up the entire teenage population of North America on the other end...other than a Geek's Rights Party I dunno what can be done (if folks ARE interested in starting such a beast, well, technically, there are probably at least a few of us of legal age for both House and Senatorial seats federally as well as in state legislatures...and we can always start by working up from stuff like school boards (all the better--we can keep shite like W.A.V.E. from ever being implemented in the FIRST place locally, and it keeps the Religious Right from being able to take over school boards to turn them into little theocracy training centers)... ;)

As far as government response, you might be forced at the ISP level to censor and filter content and monitor users.

Check out

• 'Freedom Of Expression On The Internet--HRW World Report 1999'

or

• Human Rights Watch's report on 'The Internet in the Mideast and North Africa: Free Speech'.

some excerpts...

"[a Thai police proposal] demanded that the Telephone Organization of Thailand (TOT) implement caller-ID features for all local Internet Service Providers. Caller-ID would be used to gather information about each user logging onto the network, including the telephone numbers they used, their login names and the times of the day they connected and disconnected."

and in Russia....

"The Russian state police proposed a plan to monitor every piece of data sent over the Internet within Russia's boundaries. Proposed amendments to the mass media law which were discussed in the Russian Duma in March 1998 included a clause suggesting that any publisher of electronic information should register with and obtain a license from the government."

As far as government response, you might be forced at the ISP level to censor and filter content and monitor users.

Check out

• 'Freedom Of Expression On The Internet--HRW World Report 1999'

or

• Human Rights Watch's report on 'The Internet in the Mideast and North Africa: Free Speech'.

some excerpts...

"[a Thai police proposal] demanded that the Telephone Organization of Thailand (TOT) implement caller-ID features for all local Internet Service Providers. Caller-ID would be used to gather information about each user logging onto the network, including the telephone numbers they used, their login names and the times of the day they connected and disconnected."

and in Russia....

"The Russian state police proposed a plan to monitor every piece of data sent over the Internet within Russia's boundaries. Proposed amendments to the mass media law which were discussed in the Russian Duma in March 1998 included a clause suggesting that any publisher of electronic information should register with and obtain a license from the government."

Actually, a lot of different non-profit types monitor this sort of thing. On the subject of encryption, check out "Cryptography & Liberty 1999", a report published by the Electronic Privacy Information Center. It's a country-by-country analysis of crypto policy. Countries are rated as "Red" for most restrictive, "Yellow" for somewhat restrected or likely to restrict in the future, and "Green" for having no restrictions on encryption technology. This is the second year they've published the report, and they discuss progress and changes in policy during the past year.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch keep an eye on the more general issues of freedom and human rights, and have hundreds of reports on this sort of thing.

Enron's net operations are headquartered here in Portland, Oregon, where I live, and I buy my electricity from them (through subsidiary company Portland General Electric which they swallowed in 1997), which has more than a little to do with the location of their NOC here.

What we have learned about Enron is that they are an aggressive and less than trustworthy organization. They are dramatically expanding their business lines beyond the core of natural gas trading and natural gas transmission into electric markets, municipal water systems and now bandwidth. I would not be surprised to see them take a leap at telecom next, because their effort to take over the American electric industry stalled after they bought PGE.

Enron trumpets its reputation as an ethical multinational business. They belong to various councils and associations promoting good business practice. However, the record is actually quite different.

Last month, their new natural gas power plant at Dabhol, India (Maharashtra State, southwest of Bombay) opened up. This is not only the largest single power plant in the country, it has also been the center of a 7-year political struggle involving a close (some say corrupt) relationship with leading politicians and political parties, and repression against the thousands of local residents whose homes and livelihoods have been disrupted by the construction of the plant and its land and water needs.

India is not, as some people think, a moribund "third world" country. It has titanically huge problems but it is also the second largest nation in the world (and will possibly surpass China within a few decades), and the largest democracy on the planet. It has the ill-famed "streets of Bombay and Calcutta," and it also has more PhDs than any country on earth. (And lately, it has atomic bombs.)

What Enron did in India is hardly a matter of just pushing a few backward natives out of their huts. The Dabhol plant has been a major factor in national politics, the subject of parliamentary and Supreme Court inquiries, the focus of demonstrations where thousands were arrested on Enron's behest, and where Enron even paid for off-duty police to harass and assault opponents of the plant.

This is hardly grapevine stuff. It is documented in great detail in a full-scale report by Human Rights Watch issued earlier this year.

When speaking of Enron, remember that they have one of the most aggressive self-promotion efforts of any company involved in utility operations, whether it be gas, electric, water or bits.

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