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Geek Profiling: The Next W.A.V.E.
According to David Bresnahan, reporting on the WorldNet Daily site, the new "W.A.V.E" program, developed by Pinkerton Services Group,a division of the international security firm Pinkerton, Inc. is starting up in North Carolina, and is soon to go nationwide.
W.A.V.E. offers anonymous toll-free lines for students, who will be trained to watch for and report "dangerous" behavior like depression, or kids with weapons. Every North Carolina school will have free access to this program, which will include a Web site, classes, school assemblies and special sessions for parents and teachers. W.A.V.E America was created by a North Carolina task force on school violence working together with Pinkerton. A contact list of law-enforcement agencies is also being developed for each school in the state to notify when a tip has been received by Pinkerton on its nationwide toll-free line.
W.A.V.E joins new sofware "security" programs like Mosaic 2000, which is being tested in public schools in America to compile and computerize information on students believed to be dangerous or potentially violent. This new rat-on-kids industry is an offshoot of the Geek Profiling anti-Net hysteria that broke out all across the United States after the Columbine High School killings, whose first anniversary is fast approaching. Despite the fact that horrific incidents like Columbine are extremely rare, and that the FBI and Justice Department have both reported that youth violence has dropped to its lowest levels in more than half a century, the belief persists in much of America that technologies like the Internet (and activities like computer gaming) are turning otherwise healthy school children into mass murderers.
In a newsmagazine survey taken earlier this year, 81 percent of Americans said they believed the Net was responsible for the Columbine massacre.
In the lunatic world of American education, and the surreal aftermath of Columbine, it now seems perfectly reasonable, even sensible, to suspend and force into counseling children who who are angry, depressed, who wear white, game obsessively, or who say intemperate and stupid things. The W.A.V.E program is not only institutionalizing but rewarding a culture in which kids are being taught to turn in classmates whose behavior they consider abnormal or dangerous. It also reinforces the notion that school students have no Constitutional rights of due process such as privacy, confronting accusers, behaving in non-conformist ways, or even knowing that accusations against them exist.
Although school-age children are presumed to have few rights, it's obvious that this kind of anonymous and intrusive law enforcement would blatantly unconstitutional for adults. Just yesterday, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a Florida law that permits police to search people for firearms solely on the basis of anonymous tips. Citing the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, the court ruled that such a law would enable "any person to harass another to set in motion an intrusive, embarrassing police search..." Authorities, the court ruled, needed some corraborating evidence before they could invade the privacy of any citizen. It's frightening to imagine how school authorities can possibly teach citizenship when they have so wantonly violate the very idea of constitutional rights.
This Orwellian phobia (who do we turn in next?: "dangerous" parents, neighbors and sibs?) has been a staple of the most venal political systems in the 20th Century, from Nazism to fascism to Communism. It is presumptuous and arrogant on so many levels it's astonishing to see public officials like North Carolina Gov. Jim Hunt adopt the idea so unthinkingly and enthusiastically. But he's not alone -- plenty of parents and educators are along for the ride.
It isn't clear where information goes once it's collected by kid-profiling software, or toll-free hot-lines. Presumably, it remains in a computerized dangerous-kids database for life. This is just one more reason that it's insane to ask young children to evaluate their classmates for emotional disorders and other signs of potentially "dangerous" behavior. Not only are kids patently unqualified to make judgments like that, the temptation to turn in kids that are socially competitive, "geeky," different, disliked, abrasive or unhappy seems almost irresistible, especially when doing so brings tangible rewards like cash, and is cloaked under anonymity. Monitoring and evaluating behavior is a science that's supposed to be done by trained professionals -- teachers, psychologists, guidance counselors, and therapists. Even then, kids ought to have the right to be openly confronted with the accusation that they're a menace to society, and to respond, rather than wonder if some angry classmate has branded them for life on an anonymous toll free line run by a profit-making private company with a vested interest in promoting the notion that schools -- and kids -- are dangerous.
"A safe school environment is fundamental to helping North Carolina's students succeed in school," announced Governor Hunt. "Every school ought to be a safe one and W.A.V.E. American will help get every kid involved. This program is more than just a tip line, it teaches students and parents to look for the early signs of violent behavior and to resolve conflicts constructively."
This is the worst kind of political exploitation of kids. It takes schools off the hook and turns the complex process of school administration over to adolescents. Kids will ultimately have to live in fear that the deskmate they jostled with will turn them in for money, or that bragging about exploits on Doom will get them turned into W.A.V.E. as "unbalanced."
If a kid or a parent becomes aware that a classmate has a gun and plans to use it, there are plenty of cops and law enforcement officials they can call. There is no statistical evidence to support the notion that schools are so dangerous that children need to be manipulated into turning one another in. Nor is there much doubt about who will be targeted -- geeks, nerds, Goths, oddballs, along with anyone else who is discontented, alienated and individualistic.
That kids are being rewarded for doing this is revolting enough. That they are being asked to do by a profit-making private corporation for money suggests a culture a lot sicker and more dangerous than most schoolkids. that?
I would probably agree with what Katz is saying if the website, http://www.waveamerica.com/, even remotely resembled the program he describes. However, the website does not promote "turning in" depressed kids or kids obsessed with computer games or the internet.
The website does mention some warning signs of violent behaviour. All of which are fairly obvious (i.e. Hits or bullies others, Expresses uncontrolled anger, makes threats, etc...) However, it is careful to state:
"However, it?s extremely important to know that this is not a ?checklist? to be used to stereotype anyone. These early warning signs need to be viewed in the appropriate context. They are not to be seen as individual indicators, but when exhibited in combination, are cause for concern."
The website also suggests that if a child observes these warning signs they should talk to a trusted adult (Not report it to their website, contrary to what Katz implies). This is an entirely reasonable course of action.
The WAVE program does provide a hot-line for reporting problems, but it encourages children to speak to a teacher or other trusted adult rather than use the hot-line. Calls reported to the hot-line will be reported to the appropriate authorities (i.e. school officials or law enforcement agencies) for further investigation not logged in a database as implied by Katz.
Frankly, the WAVE website appears to encourage children to take a reasonable amount of responsibility for their own safety and to work with their friends, classmates and teachers to ensure a safer environment. It does not encourage an Orwellian Big Brother Mentallity or encourage children to turn each other in for "thought crimes". While it is certainly true that parts of the program could be abused, I have seen no evidence for many of the concerns that Katz raises (i.e. there is no Violent Kids Database, Kids are not taught to look for "Geek" behaviour,etc.)
Perhaps I am missing something, but please don't take Katz's word for it. Look at the website and judge for yourself. I am afraid the Katz has stepped well beyond the realm of good journalism and into the realm of alarmist propaganda.
Both my middle school and my high school had a similar system, only it was a call in service. They handed out a little wallet sized card with a calander on it, and a toll free number so that you could report people engaged in arbitrary "bad" behavior. This was called "The Silent Witness Program".
The particular schools were Greenwood Lakes Middle School, and Lake Mary High School, in Seminole County, Florida. I believe this system was implemented in all of the Public Schools in the county.
If you were unlucky enough to have someone report you, they would come to your class, physically remove you, and question/search you, or subject you to whatever arbitrary torment they saw fit. The funny part is that many students realized that they could get out of class by having a friend call them in. Usually the phony tip was for a drug offense, which would result in a search, which would turn up nothing, because the person who was narced on knew when they were going to get taken out of class. Was really nice to see so many GLMS and LMHS students stick it to the system! BTW, this was between about 1993-1998.
They say that the Internet is to blame, for providing openly, content that distorts a kid's view on reality, turning this kid into a dangerous weirdo. Yet, they paid with their taxes, the research project that later became the Internet. And the government is constantly preaching about the role of the internet in the new economy.(see Al Gore for details)
They say that computer games, and interactive entertainment provides a plethora of violent visuals, that turn kids into gut-blasting plasma-gun addicts. Yet, you can turn on the telly, and see more guts, blood and massacres, that you could ever experience on a videogame.
The perfectly structured society that americans what to be example of, is inconsistent and hypocrite. However, they are enforcing other countries to take onto their society model.
The reason why all this misshaps take place in the states (massive murderers at school and the likes). Has more to do, with their society as a whole, than it does with dangerous people at an individual level.
There's enough on this to write a full-blown essay. But I'm a bit tired now.
There's no massive assessinations in schools at Cuba... or France, Netherlands, Japan... mmm... I wonder why.
Think of it for a second, what makes us, non-americans, so diferent from you?
Think for God's sake, think!
Until our country gives up its outdated love-affair with guns, this kind of measure could help to prevent more school shootings by disturbed teenagers. In every school across the country there are likely to be one or two individuals that are likely to become dangerous given the opportunity, and the rampant ownership of guns gives them that opportunity.
The trouble is that it can be incredibly difficult to spot these disturbed individuals, especially for parents and teachers who are either kept away or have no personal interest. Given this, which part of society has the greatest chance of spotting the patterns of behaviour which indicate potential danger?
The answer is obviously fellow students. They have the greatest contact with the individuals, and can see the changes that take place over time. Up until now there was nothing students could do if they noticed warning signs. By giving them a means to take their observations to someone who can do something about it, this service is providing a valuable safety net to both those in need of help, and to society as a whole.
Don't forget, it helps these individuals as well. Rather than them progressing to a dangerous state they will receive care and attention. After all, it's not their fault that their genes give rise to this situation, and they shouldn't be blamed for it. If this helps those people, and saves lives into the bargain, I think it is a worthwhile project.
i first thought this was a big joke... but a task force web site does exist. i don't see any references to the name 'w.a.v.e' though... here's the url... www.nccrimcontrol.org/taskforce
It's shit like this that makes the US looks so sick and messed up for us Canadians. Now I know that most Americans are nice guys but once we see this kind of thing what are we supposed to think? As the article poster said, Where's the number to 'denounce' this company? How can this be legal?
It's especially scary once you see it compared to the Hitler Youth.
Anybody find it strange that the geeks, gamers, and individualists are probably the most likely to use the internet? And so they would be the ones having the most exposure to this so-called 'security program.'
What I think they should do is just frikin' overflow the program with thousands of 'reports' about how their 'normal' classmates looked scary or wore all black clothing one day. What are they supposed to do, 'investigate' all these tens of thousands of kids?
Lets make this literally good-for-nothing but bad-for-everyone company go under.
Student Protection from Instability and Exceptional Strangeness.
Now, I'm not one to compare with Orwell, but weren't the Spies supposed to turn in people who were supposedly thinking "ungood" things? IIRC, a number of people believed that the thought criminals simply needed "help" (look at Winston's neighbor, who swore he would thank the judge for catching him before it was too late!). W.A.V.E. only encourages kids to turn in other kids that need "help".
Don't get me wrong-- depression is a serious problem, and it requires attention. But this is going to create a huge stigma for kids that really do suffer from depression. "Kids that think like this aren't even supposed to be in school-- they tell us to report kids like me to security officers. Am I a potential killer?"
Big Brother is busy-- the girl behind you in geometry class (you know, the one that always has green stuff caught in her braces) is watching you instead.
Yup. I've benn in the US as an exchange student, and we've read that book at Problems Of Democracy class, as an example, how things should not be.. It was called The Wave, you're right. It was just about the same thing this W.A.V.E. is gonna be. God save America, if this is going to happen. I lived in comunism, than some nationalism and dictatorship. It sucks. You don't want that. I guarentee you! Jano (dado@slovkaufring.sk)
Someone who either knows nothing about Babylon-5, or hates B5 has abused their Moderator Privledges. Please correct this situation.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
'nuff said
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Administrators and teachers don't need incompetent professional spies to botch things. You're absolutely right on that score, although for a different reason. You believe that the teachers and administrators have sufficient reason and fairness to sort out problems.
From my personal experience, I know differently. Teachers and administrators have no trouble being as incompetent as a professional spying agency, and are likely worse.
First, nearly all of the teachers and administrators I dealt with growing up had a simple rule for determining fault in an altercation: the side with the most witnesses wins. This makes sense if people all tell the truth, but when a gang of bullies is on one side and the kid being bullied is on the other, it's fairly obvious what the outcome will be. Many times I found myself beaten and abused by the kids around me, only to find out that I was being punished more severely than them because they convinced the teacher or administrator that I started it.
If you think it bad that the bullies covered for each other, then what do you think of the administrators? When we would appeal the case to the school board, the answer would come back, "Vice Principal John Doe just can't be wrong. He's a fair, reasonable man who would never consider anything other than the facts. Obviously he made the right decision." Bigger bullies covering for each other and for the little bullies is truly sickening.
I have the stories and the experiences. I have a very serious distrust and disrespect for school administration in K-12. I have no intention of branding all administrators, but I can assure you that based on my experience, the truly impartial ones are far and few between.
You say "If they don't know them, who does?" I can't answer the second part of that question, but I can help with the first part: they don't know these kids; they only think they do. This is why the kids in Columbine/Jonesboro/etc. acted so unexpectedly.
If parents, church leaders, friends' parents, or teachers had truly known or looked after these kids, they wouldn't be dead/in jail. Instead, they would still be suffering through bully's attacks with a sense that such things will pass away in time. Yes it hurts painfully. I know. However, if someone who really cares takes the kid in question aside and explains with empathy that they truly understand, that violence is not an acceptable response, and that things will eventually get better, the kid will have a much better outlook on life. I know from personal experience.
Who am I?
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Well, another Katz piece that includes no real meat, just his usual skewed view. Not even a link to some facts, although Katz manufactures plenty of his own "facts".
I must admit the concept of this program is a bad thing
a
'Nuff Sed
#941
Despite the fact that horrific incidents like Columbine are extremely rare, and that the FBI and Justice Department have both reported that youth violence has dropped to its lowest levels in more than half a century
While this may be true. This mostly refects a decline of violence among people of color. When these <b>white</b> kids die then people really freak out.
- deathculthero
- harrisklebold
- shotgunmania
- schoolviolence
- marilynmanson
- killallthejocks
- geekswithguns
- shootmyteachers
- columbineredux
- studentshootings
Mine. All Minehere's the info...
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083316
Apparently based a true story...
Yes, everyone seems to have read the WND article and taken it as being the truth. Whereas, in fact, it is full of completely inaccurate statements, and unfounded opinions. JonKatz has aded his own opinions to that to make his screed, which seems based far more on his personal fears and prejudices than any attempt at journalism. This isn't even biased editorialism, this is complete misrepresentation, close to being slanderous.
Politas
They're not talking about profiling, they're talking about actual violence and threats. If anything, this seems like a great way for young geeks to speak out against the bullying and harrassment they continually suffer, without the fear of making things worse for themselves.
As for the "right to consult your accuser" argument, this is not a court case. Anonymous calls to a line like this weigh very low as far as evidence is concerned. On the (hopefully rare) occasions when these Wave people decide that sending police is the best option, it would work in exactly the same way as an anonymous 911 call.
Politas
Yes, but also after this list of Early Warning Signs, their suggestions for what to do are:
Notice that "Calling the WAVE helpline" is NOT one of the suggestions. That is reserved for "Imminent Warning Signs", which are:
1 Serious physical fighting with peers or family members.
2 Severe destruction of property.
3 Severe rage for seemingly minor reasons.
4 Detailed threats of lethal violence.
5 Unlawful possession and/or use of firearms and other weapons.
6 Other self-injurious behaviors or threats of suicide.
And that lot certainly sound fair enough.
Politas
To actually submit the form sign up for a (free) email account requires you to enter No private information at all, not even an email address. Can you say "anonymous email account"? I thought you could. There is always the possibility that they may be logging IP addresses, but I doubt it.
Politas
There are some definite inaccuracies in the WorldNet article. The Wave site mentions nothing about cash awards, for instance. The program is not being paid for by state funds, it is not for profit, depression is not listed as an early warning sign.
It is also ironic that an article which slams anonymous tipsters has one of its major sources (the critic who thinks it is reminiscent of Nazis) as an anonymous source.
The classes that are mentioned are classes in non-violent conflict resolution, not some weird indoctrination.
JonKatz should be ashamed to have reeled out this latest skreed based on such nonsense without even reading through the actual website.
Politas
http://www.waveamerica.com/misc/privacy .htm
I am not a school kid, by over a decade.
However, after all of the Columbine nonsense, I had a chance to pick up a couple of US Army fatique shirts for free, so I've taken to wearing them as a lightweight jacket. Once the fatigue shirt is on over my typical casual shirt, worn with khaki cargo pants (we're pretty casual where I work), most decent suburbanite busybodies assume I'm an underground militia guy.
If everybody were to take to dressing distinctively (no color, trenchcoats, pseudo-military, or even *gasp* motorcycle boots), the system would quickly overload with all of us malcontents and misfits. hack the system
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
I'm not saying Jon's information is not correct. However, if Jon wants his stories to have credibility, he should avoid quoting their stories.
WorldNet Daily is one of those sites that conveniently leaves out important, mitigating information; that often posts articles without factual attribution, references, bibliographies, footnotes or nationally recognized experts or sources (other than self-recognized); that seems to rewrite articles appearing elsewhere and to claim them as its own; that in an admittedly common American tradition, weaves bias, prejudice and preference throughout everything posted.
WorldNet Daily's work amounts to unsubstantiated and ad hominem attacks with little separation of fact and opinion. Its suppositions are often wishful thinking and rumor, its claims are incredible and unlikely. It allows its "sources" to use WorldNet daily as a propagation machine for narrow agendas without tempering or anodyne or balance.
I would disrecommend using it as any kind of support for a story.
Wordnik, a dictionary project which aims to collect
Find out the state representatives and senators, if you live in NC. Keep an eye on their kids. Get a few friends to help. Don't stalk them--just make a note of any unusual behaviour. In public--don't try to find out what they do in private. Then, call in the kids. From a pay phone. Also call their parents and list off the dangerous behaviour which their kid is participating in.
Hell, skip calling them in. Just tell them that you should have called them in, and they'd better shape up.
um... whatever happaned to that?
4 a. Free from narrow prejudice; open-minded, candid.
b. esp. Free from bigotry or unreasonable prejudice in favour of traditional opinions or established institutions; open to the reception of new ideas or proposals of reform. Hence often applied as a party designation to those members of a church or religious sect who hold opinions `broader' or more `advanced' than those in accordance with its commonly accepted standard of orthodoxy, e.g. in Liberal Catholic. Liberal Christian: in the U.S. chiefly applied to the Unitarians and Universalists; in England somewhat more vaguely to those who reject or consider unessential any considerable part of the traditional system of belief; so liberal Christianity, liberal theology. Also in application to Judaism.
5. Of political opinions: Favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy. Hence used as the designation of the party holding such opinions, in England or other states; opposed to Conservative. Liberal-Labour, of or pertaining to (persons associated with or sympathetic to) both the Liberal and the Labour parties. So Liberal Labourism. Cf. Lib-Lab a. In Liberal Conservative, the adj. has rather sense 4 than this sense; the combination, however, is often hyphened, which perhaps indicates that it is interpreted as = `partly Liberal, partly Conservative.' Liberal Unionist: a member of the party formed by those Liberals who refused to support Mr. Gladstone's measure of Irish Home Rule in 1886.
and
b. in British politics. Early in the 19th c. the sb. occurs chiefly as applied by opponents to the advanced section of the Whig party: sometimes in Sp. or Fr. form, app. with the intention of suggesting that the principles of those politicians were un-English, or akin to those of the revolutionaries of the Continent. As, however, the adj. was already English in a laudatory sense, the advocates of reform were not reluctant to adopt the foreign term as descriptive of themselves; and when the significance of the old party distinctions was obliterated by the coalition of the moderate Whigs with the Tories and of the advanced Whigs with the Radicals, the new names `Liberal' and `Conservative' took the place of `Whig' and `Tory' as the usual appellations of the two great parties in the state.
Now, in the interest of preserving space, I have not quoted the various references that form the great part of the OED's definitions. Nevertheless the first appearence of the word in a political sense occurs in 1816, "Southey in Q. Rev. XV. 69 These are the personages for whose sake the continuance of the Alien Bill has been opposed by the British Liberales. " but see "1940 N.Y. Times 23 Jan. 20/4 Since then [sc. the Russian Revolution] Liberal has been a word of confusion. Everybody who was not a Conservative became a Liberal or Radical or Red, whichever came first to the mind. ".
In short, the epithet "liberal" does not have a static meaning, except perhaps non-Conservative/Tory. Since Conservatives, by and large, approve of "free trade", and it is no longer so appropriate to call "free trade" a liberal ideology. The essence of a liberal trade policy was not that Liberals were wedded to the idea of a free market, but they wanted a freer market than the economic systems the Conservatives wished to have. Now, as some of the excesses of various free markets have come to light, "laissez-faire" is no longer the dominant liberal position.
If I, as a revolutionary, topple a "totalitarian" state, and erect in its place a "Eutopia", would I no longer be a revolutionary? Would thouse elements of my Eutopian society wedded to the old ideas, and therefore oppossed to this new revolutionary state, be conservative, or would they be revolutionary?" The Republicans no longer would support Reconstruction Era race policies (and, in fact, would probably oppose the more radical elements.) The Democrats no longer argue in support of the "Jim Crow" social order. But since the 1860s, the Republicans and Democratts have offered essentially opposing palatforms. The only consistent definition of either would seem to be "one who opposes the other." Now, some would argue that at the core of the Republican party lies a credo not dependent on "civil rights" policy, but more substantial than "opposition to the Democratic Party". Likewise, at the core of the Liberal political view lies something not related to trade policy and probably more substatial than "opposition to the Tories." But such reasons are by their very nature, long, detailed, contradictory, and off-topic.
umm, yeah, that's why a few kids were killed a school out in alberta last year, unless you've forgotten already...
it was a book too - in the book it was high-school or middle-school age students (I dont really remember - I read it in 6th grade)
Anyways, the book focuses on a teacher who, in order to get his class involved in teaching of history, especially dealing with WWII - starts 'the Wave' - a nazi-youth-copylike organization in his classes where non participation lead to outcasting... students wore arm-bands with 3 wavy lines on them...
Its REALLY sad that not only would this sort of thing happen today, but they would be stupid enough to use the name of a late 70s/early 80s book/movie that was about how easily things like this can go wrong!!!
man is machine
Mr. Orwell was just a little early I guess ... the "Spies" are here now.
... maybe I should re-read my copy, figure out the "next big thing" and try to cash in early like a good capitalist ...
Hmmm
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
--
I knew reading The Gulag Archipelago would come in handy someday.
Part of Ireland had been independent when Churchill became PM. He had been deeply involved in British government for quite some time before that, though. I seem to remember hearing his name associated with the Anglo-Irish War fairly often.
This Six Counties of northern Ireland still endure foreign rule.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
"It's people like you who truly make me sick."
You know almost nothing about me. I tried to make a resonable response to the post. If that makes you sick, then that's your problem, not mine.
As for the gun issues: For a semiautomatic pistol which has a magazine, I do not object to having to insert the mag before firing the gun.
As for the unlocked drawer issue, for me it doesn't matter. I am unmarried and have no children. My apartment-mate is going into the military, and my future apartment-mate is also a shooter. We all know about gun safety. Who raised the issue of a safety? I'll have you know that my gun always has the safety on when I'm not shooting it. Ao, as a matter of fact, keeping a loaded gun in an unlocked drawer would actually enhance the safety of those around me, were I to do it. I would be more inclined to keep an unloaded gun next to a loaded clip. Regardless, I and those I live with all know that the first thing you should do after picking up a gun is check to see whether it's loaded.
If I had children it'd be another story. Then if I wanted a home defense weapon, I'd keep it in a drawer well out of reach of small children. I would also teach my children about gun safety and teach them a healthy respect for firearms as soon as I judged that they were old enough to understand.
I grew up in a house where there were a fair number of guns. My dad spent a few years in the army, and he was a hunter. For quite a long time, I didn't know about his home defense weapon. My brother and I were curious little bastards, but it was kept well out of our reach. By the time we did learn about it, we had been taught a healthy respect for guns.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
My major objection to smartguns right now is that the technology is just not reliable enough yet, and no gun manufacturers make smartguns. A ban on non-smartguns (MD governor tried to pass one) at this point would be pretty much equivalent to a ban on the sale of firearms. I obviously would oppose that.
As for the buying guns for younger people bit, gun laws aren't really going to help for that. But I am pretty sure that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun. I've been carded just buying handgun ammo. Not sure about other types of guns. It's not all that much an issue of age, though. The issue at Columbine was not age. It was partly simple mental instability in the kids. Mostly, though, it was the fact that the entire system had turned its back on those kids. Heavilly restricting/banning guns would treat one of the symptoms of the problem, but it's really the system that betrayed them that should be changed.
As for your comment about something wrong with society, there really is no way to completely prevent that sort of thing. In fact, I have no problem with the idea of a parent buying a gun for a child who is underage (within reason...I'm not advocating guns for 6-year-olds here). The parent should, of course, make sure that the child has been taught gun safety, and is fairly responsible.
I think that there IS something very wrong with a society in which two high-school students feel that they have no outlet for their problems (often inflicted by others) except to murder other kids and teachers, then themselves.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
"try 'endure irish meddling in a british nation'"
Hmmmm...yes, I suppose the British have always laid claim to all the Celtic nations. And then they did their level best to KILL the culture. In the case of Ireland, they even attempted genocide. ("Famine" and Cromwell) Then they tried transplanting Scots and English to Ireland (especially Ulster) to dilute Irish nationalism. I guess that's why you're there.
"dont comment about things you know fuck all about... "
Hahahaha. I just have to laugh at this because it is such a studied textbook response. "They tell me I don't understand 'cause I'm American
" (Chris Byrne -- Black 47). Just because I don't live there doesn't mean that I know fuck all about the situation.
"which has a protestant and British MAJORITY."
Yes, I know that there's a BARE protestant majority in the Six Counties. In fact, it represents a perfect example of "tyrrany of the majority", one of the problems that must be overcome in a democratic form of government. That's one of the reasons that the Brits felt that they had to reinstitute direct rule.
As for that majority being British, I guess it's easy to feel that way while you're still in NI and get to enjoy the British administration kissing your asses. Go over to Britain some time and tell them that you're British. Listen to them laugh at you when you tell them you're from Belfast (or somewhere else in the Six Counties). See how British you feel then.
"British unemployment benefit."
Thank you for bringing that up. I wouldn't have really thought of it, but it is an important issue. It's a great example of your beloved British system at work. While the Celtic Tiger is strong, that corner of the island still under the British gun founders. Unemployment is ridiculous. If the Brits had let go of the Six Counties long ago, they'd be enjoying the success of the Celtic Tiger and would not need British unemployment benefits. Just talk to your working class Protestants who have been pimped out, fucked, and sold up the river by Trimble and Paisley.
"clean out your own house before criticising others"
Not when the mess in my house pales by comparison. I objected to the problems in South Africa, and I object to British tyrrany in Ireland. Perhaps more so because as an Irish American I have a great love for the Irish nation and the Irish culture. Furthermore, the nation I currently live in has an interest in the situation because we helped to mediate the first productive agreement in the Six Counties. Unfortunately, the agreement has been repetedly sabotaged by fools. And while we're on the subject of the Good Friday Agreement, lets just clear something up. The Unionist assertion that Sinn Fein violated the GFA is absolute horse-shit. I really wish people would do their damned homework and read the agreement. Nowhere did Sinn Fein violate the agreement. The Unionists, however, DID violate the agreement by deliberately stalling the implementation of the institutions. And the British also violated the GFA and blatantly violated international law when they implemented the Unionist Veto and suspended the executive.
So yes, I absolutely stand by my use of the word "endure" with respect to British rule in the Six Counties.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
Yes she did. And Churchill was an active part of an establishment that raped the Irish nation in ways that would do Hitler proud. We just don't hear much about it because Britain is "one of the good guys". The poster had a good point, he just chose some unfortunate examples.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
Okay, I'll attempt to respond to this.
Triggerlocks: I'm not sure exactly what the NRA position on this is. I'm not opposed to triggerlocks being included with new guns. I am generally opposed to any requirement that they be on the gun at all times when it's not in use. This would be dangerous to people who depend on guns for defense against home invasion.
SmartGuns: Smartguns are currently not ready for primetime. The technology is just not reliable enough at this point. And if there's one thing that is absolutely necessary about a gun, it needs to be reliable. Right now, it's not ready. And the idea of requiring that all guns sold be smartguns is, right now, equivalent to a ban on the sale of guns. Nobody makes smartguns because the tech isn't good enough yet. Beretta USA has a statement about smart guns on their web site (http://www.berettausa.com). Also, if it takes time to deactivate the lock (of find a ring, fumble with it, get it on), this is an actual danger to anybody trying to defend themselves against a crime in progress.
I don't have any problem with gun registration. As for background checks, they should be instant computer checks.
Gun Shows: Not so sure about these because I don't know what kind of exemptions they have now, but the impression I get is that they will pretty much cease to exist if the proposed laws are applied to them. I think this would constitute undue burden on quite a few businesses.
One thing that NRA certainly does object to is the passage of new gun laws when we aren't enforcing the ones we have. This seems like a fairly reasonable objection to me.
Basically, I don't mind documenting the hell out of gun purchases. I don't mind background checks as long as they're instant. What I do mind is somebody telling me which guns I can buy (okay, I can deal with a ban on fully automatic weapons), or when I can have my gun (and I could even deal with the waiting period to prevent crimes of passion if it was sensible and only counted for the first handgun purchase...why would I go out and buy a new gun for a crime of passion if I already own one???).
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
You clearly don't live in a big city if you believe that people don't need guns to protect themselves any more.
As for gun bans, they seem pretty attractive to the ignorant or the naive. Problem is that all they do is prevent the law abiding citizens from owning guns. Do you really think that the drug dealer on the street went into a gun store and picked out a gun, filled out the paperwork for the background check, and waited his Brady period before getting a handgun? Wake up!!! Banning the transfer of guns in the United States will hurt those of us who follow the law and want to own guns for protection or sport (including hunting and simple target shooting). If you take my gun away, you don't prevent any crime. You just increase my vulnerability to crimes being comitted against me.
"In America's recent history, how many times have people used guns to defend their "freedom". None, that's how many."
Incorrect. The American Revolution. The Civil War (most Confederate troops were non-slave-owners who were fighting against what they perceived as a tyranical central government). And what about the many documented cases every year when somebody uses a gun (whether through simple display or actual fire) to protect themselves against crime? I would call that defending their freedom too.
In an ideal world, maybe banning guns would be okay. But then, in an ideal world, we wouldn't need to. No government that cannot completely eliminate street crime and home invasion has a right to take away peoples ability to defend themselves against these crimes with guns.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
I'm not talking about the UK. I'm talking about the United States. And look at all the improvements we've seen in the US due to recent gun control measures. Oh wait, what improvements? There are already a huge number of guns in the US. Furthermore, as the drug trade has shown, our borders are extremely permeable. If you make guns illegal here, they'll just be shipped in from other countries. Probably in the same shipments as the drugs. Not to mention all the guns that are already here. Are you going to require me to give up my gun? If so, I hope you're planning on paying me pretty well for it. And where's that money going to come from?
And if you're not going to force law abiding citizens to give up the guns we currently own, then there's another source of guns in the US. I can just see the headlines now: US Congress outlaws the transfer of firearms; rates of gun theft skyrocket.
Recent history: Oops, missed the word recent. Honest mistake. You still didn't address the use of guns in defending against crime, though.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
Here's a link for you.
This one man ran up a huge international phone bill, continually ringing the number and announcing "I am {name escapes me}, private citizen of Australia calling you to protest at the actions of the Chinese Government..." and continuing for as long as they would allow him on the line. The Chinese changed the number. He found the new number and continued his harangue. The Chinese eventually abandoned broadcasting the number, and posted it on billboards instead.
My point? Why has no-one thought of doing this in this case? The number is toll free for goodness sake! Call them, don't call in a fake claim "Senator Bozo's son was doing crack in Math B," but announce who you are, why you are calling, and outline your points of objection in a calm and rational manner.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
SenMcArthy@waveamerica.com
It was too tempting....
Now, not only is it bad enough to be a depressed high school student, you've got to hide it from your friends or risk getting sold out/arrested for a free t-shirt. Last I heard, it wasnt illegal to be in a bad mood.
What I'm saying is that if they had to stop and go through the whole powder and wadding and ball and tamping everything down process after each shot in order to reload instead of getting to use "bullet hoses", they could have been stopped after the first shots.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
While I have little doubt that people are fundamentally the same as they were 200 years ago, society isn't and small arms certainly aren't. Imagine Columbine if they'd only had single shot flintlocks.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Yes, North Carolina Governor Jim Hunt, who is in his final term, is being talked about as Secretary of Education in an Al Gore administration.
Yes, Pinkerton's is in this for the money.
However, The Nazi's were out to eliminate those who were a threat to them, not to the population in general as they tried to make them appear to be.
I'm in North Carolina, in an area where a couple of teenagers were arrested just the other day on charges that they were planning to kill the employees of a local gun shop and then use the weapons they would steal to kill the usual assortment of teachers, classmates, etc.
Just because these sorts of things are rare doesn't mean that they aren't becoming more common rather than less so. People are scared and they seem to have increasing reason to be.
Anybody who knows a better way to deal with thye problem feel free to share it.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Did you know they outed the Snuffelupagus because they felt teaching children that sometimes they are right when the whole world doubts them was dangerous?
whoa! what are you talking about here? they took mr. snuffelupagus (sp?) off sesame street!? arggghhh!!! he was the coolest chacter on the show. what the hell...?
"onward!" cried the copper man, little knowing brass corrupts...
This database is unlikely to be maintained indefinitely. If for no other reason, than you need parental consent for recording information on minors.
Heh, yeah right. My H.S. still has all my personal information in their computers and they never asked my parents for consent. SSN, Grades, attendance records, etc. Shit, they'd post my grades using my full SSN as my ID which is clearly against the law.
While enforcing conformity is a bad thing, it isn't Nazish or Stalinistic, it is obnoxious. This program appears to be well intended...
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You really should read up on your history though. Both the Nazi's and Communists under Stalin's (and other's) rule were very big into turning in those "who did not agree with the status quo". Last time I checked, one of the founding ideas behind America was that it was OK to be different and that you could express that without fear of attack by your neighbor or the gov't.
Allowing peers to turn in other peers anonymously is one of the tenents of a police state system. As Benjamin Franklin once said: (paraprased)
Those willing to give up a little freedom for their safety deserve neither.
Let's subject them to a little bit of their own medicine, and turn them in to their own task force! I am highly concerned that their actions are a danger to themselves and others, and they must be dealt with immediately in a harsh and brutal manner. Let's begin with:
* Jack Trlica, Pinkerton Director of Marketing
* North Carolina Governor James B. Hunt, Jr.
* James M. Powell, III, PSG Senior Vice President
Everybody call the WAVE toll-free tip line (1-888-960-9600) and make sure these sick people are brainwa^H^H^H^H^H^H helped!!
Or, submit through the web here!
Anyone know which schools their kids attend???
Is that such a difficult concept? Well, let's get our facts straight. I contend that it needs to be taken into account that anyone who thinks that Jon's modes of thought won't be used for political retribution has never been hauled before a tribunal and accused of larrikinism. Jon invents problems in order to provide himself with an excuse for making a fuss. Interestingly, Jon doesn't seem to care about that. Perhaps I'm reading too much into his ramblings, but they don't seem to serve any purpose other than to expose and neutralize his enemies rather than sit at the same table and negotiate. After watching his cronies create a regime of immoral colonialism, one might conclude that Jon et al. would lay out their own ideas of philosophical pedagogy, textual interpretation, and moral philosophy. Surprisingly, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Jon can back up his viewpoints only with empty, inflammatory rhetoric, the very thing he vacuously accuses his opponents of using.
He can write anything he wants about how things would be different were we to give into his demands and let him peddle the snake oil of insensitive chauvinism, but his sound bites are very much in line with self-serving hedonism in that they turn our country into a witless cesspool overrun with scum, disease, and crime. As will be discussed in more detail later in this letter, identifying and naming rancorous maniacs is fundamentally different from using their bromides as an instrument of rebellion. Not only have delusional miscreants decided to glorify their morals by dressing them up as moral and righteous prerogatives, but their threats are being debated as though they were actually reasonable. Anyway, the consequence of all this is that those who are the most sensitive about this are not the average destructive apostates, but a minority of petty silly riffraff.
I like to think I'm a reasonable person, but you just can't reason with loathsome raucous mouthpieces for saturnine barbarism. It's been tried. They don't understand, they can't understand, they don't want to understand, and they will die without understanding why all we want is for them not to make our lives an endless treadmill of government interferences while providing few real benefits to our health and happiness. Isn't it historically demonstrated that Jon is unable to deal with a world populated by human beings? We can't stop him overnight. It takes time, patience and experience to take personal action and argue about his zingers. I used a phrase a few moments ago. I referred to his lackeys as "depraved profiteers." You ought to memorize that phrase, because, frankly, I unhesitatingly don't want my community tainted with such blatant anti-intellectualism.
You don't have to say anything specifically about Jon for him to start attacking you. All you have to do is dare to imply that I should place a high value on honor and self-respect. He and mad deviants are cut from the same cloth. Think I'm exaggerating? Just ask any of the most valuable members of our community, and they'll all tell you how implying that there is something intellectually provocative in the tired rehashing of unsavory stereotypes is no different from implying that he can force us to do things or take stands against our will and get away with it. Both statements are ludicrous. Is Jon hoping that the readers of this letter won't see the weakness of his argument relative to mine, or is he just being rabid? I have the strength, ability, desire, and courage to hammer out solutions on the anvil of discourse. Do you?
He can blame me for the influx of sordid antagonists if it makes him feel better, but it won't help his cause any. Others may disagree, but I insist that I leave it to more capable and intrepid folks to explore the full ramifications of his editorials. Jon's slogans are in every respect consistent with the school of combative thought that tends to make today's oppressiveness look like grade-school work compared to what Jon has planned for the future. Make no mistake about it, it's time to put up or shut up. You might not care that his seemingly-egalitarian ideas lead only to results that are both deluded and unfair, but you'd better start caring if you don't want him to work both sides of the political fence. If I have characterized Jon's henchmen up to now as benighted and wicked, it is only because Jon makes it his job to scrawl pro-immoralism graffiti over everything.
Maybe he just can't handle harsh reality. His magic-bullet explanations are exemplary of the forces minorities must fight in their struggle to achieve equal footing with the rest of the community. I was, however, going to forget about the whole thing when it suddenly occurred to me that Jon's screeds represent an inseparable mixture of reason and human madness, but always in such a way that only the madness can become reality and never the reason. Everywhere he's gone, Jon has tried to restructure the social, political, and economic relationships throughout the entire society. It can happen here, too.
At any rate, his message is apparently that he could do a gentler and fairer job of running the world than anyone else. Although grungy menaces are relatively small in number compared to the general population, they are rapidly increasing in size and fervor. Jon's undertakings may not be traditional for all feckless nymphomaniacs, but compared to these soulless clods, every pimp is a man of honor. Jon can be described only by such words as "incompetent" and "ignorant". Similarly, his grievances are based on two fundamental errors. They assume that he is forward-looking, open-minded, and creative. And they promote the mistaken idea that profits come before people. Accordingly, Jon backstabs his assistants.
Ok, I admit that until we speak out against behavior and speech that is intended to incite pogroms, purges, and other mayhem, he will continue to curry favor with self-pitying recidivists using a barrage of flattery, especially recognition of their "value," their "importance," their "educational mission," and other irascible nonsense. But if you don't think that for every dollar we spend to better our communities, he'll spend a thousand more to cause the destruction of human ambition and joy, then think again. According to the latest scientific evidence, the ideas backing up Jon's statements are extremely ultra-malodorous and contumelious. More to the point, the costs of Jon's imprecations outweigh their benefits. As far back as I can remember, Jon has pitted proponents of absenteeism against gadflies and segregationists against scum. His appeal to materialism is dangerous stuff. Sure, it sounds disingenuous. Blame that on sexist litterbugs. Some people have compared truculent social outcasts to iconoclastic suborners of perjury. I would like to take the comparison one step further.
Jon's demands are a perfect example of overgeneralization and blatant nepotism. If I understand Jon's epithets correctly, then if Jon feels ridiculed by all the attention my letters are bringing him, then that's just too darn bad. His arrogance has brought this upon himself. Judging by the generally unsavory nature of his toadies, I can see that we ought to teach him a lesson. To quote the prophet Isaiah, "Woe to ye who gag the innocent accused from protesting emotionalism-motivated prosecutions". Never before have I encountered more bloatedly self-important prose than that which Jon produces. His snow jobs make many mainstream bums nervous. The same might be said of nerdy callous devil-worshippers.
No matter what he thinks, it must be pointed out that he makes it sound like he's some perfect angel of unstained ethical standards. Jon claims to have turned over a new leaf shortly after getting caught trying to rip apart causes that others feel strongly about. This claim is an outright lie that is still being circulated by Jon's supporters. The truth is that there is a vast empirical literature on this subject. Again, most pundits are uncertain about the magnitude of the threat posed by his convictions. It would be bad enough if Jon's slaves were merely trying to scorn and abjure reason. But their attempts to pull the levers of immoralism and oil the gears of blackguardism are just plain pathetic. If stentorian lounge lizards can one day dump effluent into creeks, lakes, streams, and rivers, then the long descent into night is sure to follow.
Am I being rash for wanting a little editorial balance here? When I first encountered his agendas, all I could think of was, "I am merely pointing out what I have observed." On a similar note, there is no compelling moral or economic reason why he should deflect attention from his unwillingness to support policies that benefit the average citizen. I plan to work within the system to persuade my fellow citizens that Jon's helpers have the audacity to pigeonhole people into predetermined categories, not because I lack the courage for more drastic steps, but because Jon needs to come to terms with his power-hungry past. One argument he makes is that the most valuable skill one can have is to be able to lie convincingly. That's just plain nonsense. The truth is that by an odd twist of fate, feeble-minded troglodytes do not deserve the assistance they receive from society. It is high time for someone to illustrate the virtues that Jon Katz lacks -- courage, truthfulness, courtesy, honesty, diligence, chivalry, loyalty, and industry. Will that someone be you?
pronoblem
It's strange, this attitude toward people with depression is so much like the prevailing 19th century belief that people with depression were insane or demon-posessed and just needed to be locked up in a dark room for the rest of their lives for public (and their own) safety.
I don't think it's a conspiracy exactly, I just think we are entering a new dark age where ignorance and fear reign supreme and blur all rational thought.
Is wearing white the new hip thing to do among outcasts? Why in my teen angst days it was black! And that was only three years ago!
There are no reasonable social consequences to make an angry or unscrupulous person think twice before calling up WAVE and reporting.
Unless the teacher can get to a phone first...
"...as usual our favorite author is inserting his personal bias where he claims to be reporting fact."
What makes you think Jon claims to be anything but an Op-Ed reporter?
Smells like a straw-man argument you be making.
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
This entire concept of "turning in" your friends and classmates is appalling! Seems that there was an orginization that did this once before. I hope this one doesn't go that route!
After the guy's reputation was well-ruined, the kids admitted that they'd made it all up. The school system "apologized" but they have put this teacher through a month-long hell from which he may never recover fully.
Subsequent investigations revealed the school staff bungled their handling of the charges from the start, in particular by allowing the girls to coordinate their stories and by assuming the teacher was guilty from the start.
With programs like "W.A.V.E", the kids can now get a taste of this behavior themselves.
I won't be surprised if Virginia tries to adopt something like this. At least I can now tell my kids' school system and respresentatives what I think of it.
...to reward an anonymous tip off with a free t-shirt????
Not really, it's a very effective way for propaganda to spread across the country. These W.A.V.E. creeps will give away t-shirts that say: " I snitched for a better America", or other idiocies of the same caliber.
"Wit is the epitaph of an emotion." -Nietzsche
So let me get this straight, the government takes away the ability of the schools to discipline children, and society and the government take away the ability of parents to discipline children, and know, when certain kids go out of control they have the same bunch of "depressed, dangerous or potentially violent" children the ability to discipline each other. Can we pass the buck any further?
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
I might contend this. I would argue that increase in population with decreased ability teach/supervise/mentor/care, not violence in the media is to blame. Violence has been arround for a long time in the media. Starsky and Hutch was a great TV show in the early 70's, so was the MOD Squad. Both quite violent, lots of shooting, lots of death. Maybe not as graphic as today, but the body count was still there. There were lots of others too. Sure Rap music is violent....BUT, the hood isn't violent because of it.....IT is violent because of the "Hood". So now this, another bandaid. Most of these things could be reduced my something simple, but something no one wants to pay for. Lowered student count per teacher, across the board, better wages for those that teach our children. Sure, a lot of teachers are terrible, but its either cause they are burned out from working 80-100 hours a week while making well under the middle class wages, or they are undereducated because who is going to go 100K in debt for a degree for a job that doesn't pay diddly. Instead, its just another quick fix. Its a matter of responsability.....and we as a country are not taking it seriously.
Dimes
The United States of America needs to think long and hard on what it is doing about these so-called mal-adjusted teenagers. This article, while not containing all the facts of the story, does give us an idea of what is going on.
1.) the fact that so many people own guns (and are actually allowed to carry them concealed in some states?!) allows teenagers much greater access to these weapons. Its simple numbers here people. Perhaps something should be done about this sad state, like outlawing firearm ownership by private citizens. The facts are that it is *not* necessary for any private citizen to own something that has been designed *SOLELY* for killing. A gun has absolutely no other use. Absolutely no one in the U.S. *needs* a gun to provide food for themselves/family, so why the hell do they own them?! To kill people. Most people would say that as "protecting myself/family", but lets be blunt. Owning a gun is simply your way of saying "if someone gets in my way, im going to kill them". Now theres a nice attitude for the laws of a country to be fostering. Fuck the N.R.A.
2.) many parents now-a-days are not nearly responsible enough to be raising children. the pressure of the work day, both parents working a job, only one parent around, or just general irresponsiblity on the parents behalf leads to many opportunites for children to get in trouble. i almost wish that people had to take a phsych exam before being liscenced to have children. we need exams to drive a car, and i consider caring for a child a much more important responsiblity. lets put a monetary tax on having children as well, just like the need to pay insurance for a car. so either way, if the parents dont pass an exam or dont have enuf money, they cannot have children.
3.) there are already systems in place for anoymously tipping the authorities off to illegal activites, so why the need for profiling and a special school-kids specific program? just call the police! if parents would teach children responsibility, instead of relying on T.V. to take care of them, there would be many fewer problems like Columbine.
4.) and lastly, what about the school administration? Im sure if asked why they cant do more, we would hear all sorts of things, probably along the lines "We aren't trained for this kind of thing", or "There aren't enough staff to keep an eye on the schools population" or some such bullshit. If the administration of any school cared a single fuck about the children attending their school, they would have spotted the shooters at Columbine as "disturbed" or "troubled" or some such. The attitudes of teachers and administrators today is pathetic. I've witenessed it first hand, here in Canada, and I can only imagine its as bad or worse in the U.S.. Theres is absolutely no respsonsiblity in place for the administration to protect children that are ostracized, or to help children that are depressed. This new W.A.V.E. program imagines that fellow classmates will the notice the "changes" in children, since they have the most exposure to that child. As far as I know, teachers are required to be at school, with these "disturbed" children as well. Since the teachers are there as much as the fellow students, why are they not able to do anything? Simple. The dont fucking care. Take the case of student being "picked on". He/she is an outcast, very few, if any friends in the school. Constantly being harassed. What does the administration do. Absolutely nothing. Not a thing. Even if the harrasers is reported, very little is done to them. In many cases that I can think of the harrasers are immune. They are the socially popular and powerful people. Sports team players. Cheerleaders, etc. Instead of a slap on the wrist for harrasment, and expulsion for being "mal-adjusted" (depressed, quiet, a computer gamer or whatever else), lets do the right thing and come down hard on expulsion. If it can be proved that someone has harrased another student, no matter who they are, on the very first offence, expel them, and if possible, cahrge them with a criminal offence. By not doing so, we only re-enforce a disgusting attitude of "If I dont get caught, its acceptable". This is the sort of attitude that fosters prejudice, racism, and intolerance. Instead of a zero-tolerance attitude toward kids bringing guns to school (not that thats a bad idea!), implement a zero-tolerance attitude toward the intolerant kids. The first time they utter a racial slur, hit them with everything possible. As soon as they are caught harrasing another student, arrest them and charge them. The administration has to step up to bat on this one. They have to learn to once again take responsiblity for what happens in their schools, instead of blaming it on non-issues like computer gaming, or implementing useless and draconian measures like phsych-profiling. Teach the teachers and administration to care again, and give them the power to do something about it, and schools would be an almost healthy place to be.
Finally, I think its a combination of all 4 of the above points that leads to such tragedies as Columbine. The internet, computer gaming, T.V., and whatever else the powers that be have decided to blame have nothing to do with the issue whatsoever. I know, I've been there, and been on the receiving end of peoples intolerant attitudes. I also play violent computer games, watch quite a bit of TV (violent and otherwise), use the internet constantly, love computers, was always fairly introspective, and didnt have many friends in high school. I never once considered taking a gun to school, or even a knife. I was taught by *responsible* parents that violence is not a solution to anything. But without that support and care from my parents, I can easily imagine how I may have turned out. Here in Canada it is far less likely to find a gun in a private citizens home, so I would have been hard pressed to actually shoot someone even if I wanted to. On the other hand, the school administration did nothing about it. I could have been harrased not 2 feet from a techer, and not a thing was said or done. So, if some fellow student had pushed me too far and I had shot him, I would have been charged and put in jail. The harraser, on the other hand would have gotten off scot-free (assuming he lived of course). Aint that ironic?
I just signed up for my brand new free email address - hitler@waveamerica.com! Get yours!
I think that perhaps one of the best ways for the average joe to pursue the utter annihilation of this company (since my ass is too broke to help anyone pursue legal action, although I would like to see the ACLU do this) is to bombard their "tipline" with bogus information. I pledge to do what I can to prevent the rise of fascism in the good 'ole US of A.
Ps. - did you see the red white and blue color scheme on their website? the pics of the flag used as icons?
*****chris lindsay ICQ # 6628472 Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Alb
I just called and asked for a t-shirt and asked how many people did I have to turn in for a HAT! They refered me to another toll free number for their PR department (800) 527-1428 where I got a recored message.
Give'm a call, They're lonely and the guy who answered at (888) 960-9600 sounded depressed!
Certified Black Helicopter Pilot *** Unwitting Dupe of One World Gov'ment
There wasn't any; due to supposed gun control, the owners weren't allowed to carry them with them.
Of course, you (or your aquaintance) could list many instancers where there was no return fire, or no threat of it. Equally true, every instance can be countered by one where the presence of armed person(s) prevented or cut short such incidents; and these episodes of defense outnumber the unnoposed.
If you think non-auto rifles and shotguns are 'bloody hard to conceal', you are quite mistaken.
Drive-by shootings, BTW, are rarely done by the driver, rather they are done by passengers. Which makes your reference basically moot.
Bill
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
Not true. First, it is not a 'general phrase', it is a very specific phrase.
Second, a literary analysis of the 2nd Amemndment reveals that
Thus, since the right is not granted by govt', they cannot remove it. Since congress (aka the govt.) cannot make laws that abridge it, they cannot determine 'what we can arm ourselves with', as that, by definition, is abridging it.
Thus, laws preventing you from owning arms (in America), are in violation of the US Constitution, and a violation of your rights.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
Your hair not combed? Your clothes the wrong color? Time to go to jail pal, you are a 'potential psycho'
Do you really think that work for long. They tried some Nazti shit that like that with me and I would most likely have the courts all over them in a second. I am sorry if I am ranting but we had pathetic attempts to stir people back in the 30's during the great depression in America and it didn't work at all in any way.
Actually, the attempts to stir people up were in the 20s, before the Depression began. They were very successful, in fact, and caused a virulent anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and anti-black backlash. The KKK, of course, was at the forefront.
My principles are based on logic. Since people know of the Natzis and since books have been published and all sorts of other things have happened a logical human being will not be tempted to believe something that they see as readily.
You assume that a) everyone knows their history, presumably better than you know yours, b) everyone has the same perspective, and that c) everyone is rational. All three of those assumptions are wrong. People ignore the lessons of history, sympathize with the bad guys, and act on emotion all the time. Ethnic and religious hatreds, scapegoating during economic hardships, and reactionary restricitions on human rights and civil liberties are all too easy to bring to the fore. In the immediate aftermath of World War II, the US experienced a severe, decade-long persecution of Communists. Those deprived of their reputations and other assets were, in large part, neither criminal nor even Communist. Even if they were Communist, they had broken no law. Also, when the bad guys are the majority, they have the power. If you're a black man in 1875 South Carolina, and you vote Republican (the Republicans were the liberals at that time), you better worry about getting lynched. The KKK and the Red Shirts don't give a shit about whether your candy-ass has the Constitution on its side. They just know that they don't want you havin' no rights.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
If it becomes even reasonably widespread and successful then it becomes useless for WAVE's purpose.
Virtually everybody will end up on their database. Everyone does something at some point that WAVE would consider dodgy.
What use is a discriminatory database if virtually everyone is on it?
stay frosty and alert
Quite right. YOu can't predict what will push a nutter over the edge. It could be anything.
That chap who used to kill and eat people, Jeffrey Dahmer...one of the films he used for "inspiration" was "Return of the Jedi", which was passed by the censors for all ages.
stay frosty and alert
I am disgusted by this, and I encourage any youngsters out there subjected to this to spam this system with the names of ALL your classmates.
They're all dangerous!!! They're all dangerous!!!
Slashdot: Liberal News for Nerds. Liberal Stuff that Matters.
After searching there site for some numbers I found this:
" Feel free to contact WAVE America Public Relations at (800) 527-1428 or publicrelations@waveamerica.com."
Since they asked so nicely, I called immediately to tell them exactly how insane I think their program is. Unfortunately I got an answering machine, but I left a detail, rational message objecting, and left contact information. I think that all of you here who oppose this should call or write them.
heres how: everyone, register, then submit everyone you can, from your best friend to the captain of the football team. it's a simple nonviolent means for protest which will show them how flawed their system is.
My question is, how will this program affect bullying? Suppose I call in a "report" on one of the jocks. Will these reports be relied upon, or will they only serve where the teacher's intuition says they're right?
"Johnny? Oh, yes... Johnny listens to that Goth music. He could kill us all."
"Steven? No, no! Steven is on the football team! He'd never hurt anybody!"
If used intelligently (and I'm not holding my breath), this system could make the teachers more alert to the real sociopathic fuckers that gravitate towards harmless geeks and set them simmering. The problem is, of course, that it will end up working exactly like a Witch-hunt or a Red Scare: if suspected, a report means you're guilty. Every report will be believed, despite the amazingly small percentage of places where it's gotten bad enough to come to gunshots. Pinkerton, Inc., will make a lot of money selling this "cure" for the problem, and when the statistical incidence goes down even a little ("...lies, damn lies, and statistics"), they will get their cash and run.
On the other hand, it'd be sweet to see the Goth cliques cheat the system by all collectively reporting a bully as cunning, cruel, violent, and sociopathic.
"Is he capable of violence in your opinion?"
"Oh, yeah... I mean, c'mon, he's on the football team because he likes blood!"
"Could he plan an attack on the school?"
"He always knows when teachers aren't going to be around, and waits until then to beat people up."
"Does he use computers?"
"Oh, yes, definitely. He likes that world wide web."
What's dangerous is that geeks will now be forced even further into hiding. The programming culture could be forced out of mainstream, and the price you will pay for a good job in the computer-oriented arts will be a childhood of torture.
Up until the day where there is nobody in the house/apartment (do you telecommute, do all your shopping by Internet, and only have friends visiting you?) and the burglar who breaks in (because he knows everybody has left the house) gets a windfall of a gun to upgrade his skills to mugging. Or do you always lock it up when you leave the house, go on vacation, etc?
I have no problems with non-automatic rifles or shotguns because it's bloody hard to conceal them.
As an aquaintance once put it, where was all the return fire from the handgun owners in all those MacDonald's shootings? It would seem some of them had their guns loaded in a drawer at home. Perhaps others were doing target practice on US highways? It's a lot harder to drive and shoot a shotgun at the same time than say a Glock semiautomatic (even if Arnie does manage the former with blanks in T2 - hey, it's the movies).
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
This is wide open to DoS (mmm, anonymous 800 lines, mmm...)
With a little organization (along the lines of email lists to distribute the day's bogus reports for each member) it has a fair chance of bringing the system to its knees, if implemented.
You see there are things called laws.
There's nothing magic about laws. Criminals and governments break them all the time.
Actually, the law and the right of people can be two different things - remember that Stalins mass executions were perfectly lawful, as was the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis.
This was best put into words by Birgit Breuel, an Eastern German liberal who had a fair share in "tearing that wall down". Looking back at the development, she said: "Wir wollten das Recht, und wir bekamen den Rechtsstaat." (Which in English translates maybe even better to "We wanted our rights, and we got the law.")
Hurricane Application Group, Dept of Meteorology Control, Ministry of Proactive Defense
It's only $3.99
Everyone should have a copy. When they run out and have to start printing more, someone will notice.
(and when they start burning books, this will be the first to go. keep your copy in a safe place)
Reality has a liberal bias
That kid at the bottom in the middle looks like he's about to snap. Probably because he feels like a tool for being a poster boy for the Pinkerton "Rat-Out-Your-Friends" Movement.
Sigh.
...If you tried to take on an invading force, you and all your gun-crazy friends would be killed by artillery before you even got within firing range... Then why are the Russians having so much trouble with the Chechens?
No, but now everyone sees him, not just big bird. Use to be that he would wander off and no one else would get to meet him.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
Look i've had enough of this wave (bad pun sorry..) that the media has created targeting the young, depressed outcast. Has anyone ever thought to just leave us alone?!?!? While i was in high school i was one of those kids who was an outcast. i wore (and i still wear) all black and sat in front of a computer for at least 6 hours a day. i was constantly depressed (and as it turns out i'm bipolar) and alot of the time suicidal. The only things that have changed are my age, education and i sit in front of a computer for 12+ hours a day.
I carry my gerber tool and gerber ez-open knife. does this make me dangerous? All these kids want is to be left alone so they can code or game or do whatever it is that lets them escape from the shithole they probably deal with everyday. the absolute worst thing you could do to them is to herd them in and force more public harasment onto them, let along reward the punk-ass jocks who will cash in on these kids being different.
Ever since columbine i have tried to keep a level head about this entire situation. But now i've had it. Just try and turn me in... i dare you.
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but what is so bad about the United Kingdom not having a Constitution? The problem with a Constitution is that it has to be VERY carefully worded, as otherwise when the Constitution becomes open to abuse.
I'm sorry to use it, but the American "Right to bear arms" (I forget what part of the Constitution it is) is a classic example. Forgive me, I don't know the exact wording, but from what I recall all Americans have the right to bear arms and form reasonable militia so they can defend themselves if the Government rises against them.
At first sight this seems all well and good. But enter the National Rifle Association. They argue that as the military and the police have bodyarmour, the American public should have the right to own armour piercing bullets. This I think is a very bad thing, but I have to agree with them. I fully support the NRA on this matter, much as though it scares me.
On the other hand, I grew up in a civilisation that predates the US by several centuries (through its various guises as Britannia, England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom - note that I am not saying that England==Britain there, just the society I GREW UP in has at various points been those)has never had the need for a constitution, although we have charters all over the place that could be seen as very similar, has never had the need to make it law that we can arm ourselves and hence have never had the need to routinely arm our policemen. The NRA's views could be seen as an abuse of the American public's constitutional rights. Or is it?
Who has the better deal? You may have your opinion, but I also have mine.
Another example is free speech. We do not have that right written in a constitution. I also do not believe that right has any place in that constitution. Did the American Constitution anticipate the black slave trade or the rise of militant Christianity in the United States? I doubt it, otherwise the Constitution may have had clauses defending Black Americans and those persecuted by Christians in the United States (eg. Homosexuals). Unfortunately the American Constitution does nothing to defend those attacked under the banner of "free speech", hence people like the guy who runs God Hates Fags being able to do what he and his followers do.
I'm sorry. A Constitution, like Communism, works in theory. IMHO practice is an entirely different matter.
I thought we were boycotting Amazon? :oP
Actually, you might be on to something. The best way to handle these folks is a meatspace DOS attack. If everyone turned themselves in the system would reach saturation. If we could get every student in NC to step up and say "I'm Spartacus", this program would be overwhelmed. We could take it to the next level, where someone turns in five people, who then turn in five people and so on. That would be a pretty solid way of Making (less) Money Fast for Pinkerton. Once the money dries up, Wave goodbye to WAVE.
I just do not understand the application of small-time, short sighted solutions to the problem of teen violence. These kids aren't violent because of a video game, the seeds of violence are sown at home. You cannot stop a lifetime of growing up in the midst of addiction, abuse and poverty with a pledge and a discount card. Pinkerton is shameless.
These kids need to sit down and talk to trained counselors. Really talk, not be "threat profiled" and go through the risk assessment BS. To do that they need to feel like they can trust someone. A for-profit tip line that offers a sweepstakes toWin a Free Computer for signing up isn't going to win any trust. Kids know what is real and where peoples motives are. If you dont have a relationship with them, forget about helping on a personal level. All that WAVE does is drive a wedge of mistrust between already disconnected relationships. If the kids felt like they could speak frankly to an adult on campus who really cares, maybe violence would become less of an issue overall.
-BW
This is horrible, for reasons explained many times before, don't need to go into that again.
But what can we do about it? We're a pretty decent-sized, intelligent community.. we should come up for a good way of getting our voice heard and protest this program.. I'm out of high school, but I surely don't want my kids when I have them going to schools that have programs like this in place. It's enough to make me want to move out of the U.S.. (on a tangent, which countries give the most freedom to individuals (not the best way to phrase that, but I think you know what I mean))..
Any ideas anyone?
BilldaCat
To be fair, the comparison to the Hitler Youth was made, not the holocaust.
In this case, I think it's a legitimate comparison (hey, at some point, there WILL be things to compare to the Nazis just by the odds that are not illegitimate comparisons). However you phrase it, it's rewards for turning in people based on questionable grounding.
In this case, I'm gonna give Katz credit on this one.
Of course, I notice the unique capitalist twist on having this be a for-profit endeavor. Will we see competing companies viying for who can turn in more kids?
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
It sounds like the W.A.V.E. project is trying to get money from the state/school system. However, the political legitimization of a pure for-profit enterprise with social repercussions is disturbing. All things aside, this is essentially a company with a profit motive exploring a new avenue - in a questionable way.
All things aside, I think people would be disturbed that highly sensitive, personal, and controversial issues are being handled by a profit-motive company with political backing. There's a chance for huge conflicts of interest here.
Of course, I do expect this to blow up, I just don't know how much damage this will cause. When people begin flooding lines by turning in each other, when sports rivals turn each other in, when revenge-confessions are used, when someone is falsely accused and sues the heck out of everyone in sight . . .
I'll be watching.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Ummm...OK. I'm kind of lost at how you managed to draw a connection between Hitler Youth and scouts, considering that the scouting movement predates Hitler Youth by more than 50 years. If anything the Hitler Youth was based on the scouting movement.
And as to Scouts being similar to army, well...duh really? Where do you think scouting comes from? It was started as an organization to train future soldiers.
I wonder how many in the good old USA still believe the right to bear arms is really worth it.
Hmm... the scouting organizations based on the Hitler Youth, eh? That's odd, because according to the Encyclopædia Brittanica, the Boy Scouts were founded in 1908 by a British cavalry officer, one Lt. Gen. Robert S. S. Baden-Powell; the organization expanded to the US in 1910.
The Hitler Youth weren't founded until 1933.
I'm not a gigantic fan of the BSA, but claiming that they're based on the Hitler Youth organization is IMO somewhat slanderous, and is most definitely inaccurate. If there's any connection between the two, it's more likely that the Hitler Youth were based on the scouts, and not the other way around.
Does anyone know what W.A.V.E. stands for? I've been away from the states for a few years, and the last time I was there, I noticed all the D.A.R.E. bumper-stickers and associated paraphrenalia. Then I asked some people what D.A.R.E. stands for. Mostly I got a blank stare, closely followed by "uh, you know, that drugs thing." I still wonder if it doesn't mean "Drugs Are Really Exiting".
What's W.A.V.E. mean, "Will Actively Validate Evil"?
Steve -- If you have to call it a system, you don't know what it is.
You won't have to wait. Grade school kids (especially in junior high) can be quite vindictive, it's part of the culture. 13-year-old kids are *supposed* to be mean, that's how they assert their independence and become individuals. It sounds trite, but it really *is* just a phase. Even I had been known to say a few really heartless things in junior high just because everyone else did.
The point is, this W.A.V.E. program is just begging on it's knees for trouble. I can't think of a worse group to give this kind of power to than a bunch of grade school students. I certainly hope that the parents of these kids can realize that, and prevent this program from spreading.
I have several younger siblings who are in grade school, and you'd better believe I'll put my parents on alert.
-zack
Here is IMDB's entry.
I thought it was odd too.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
You are perfectly right in correcting that posting. Ironically enough, Baden Powell is widely credited for inventing the concentration camp. He must have been a great source of inspiration for der Adolf.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
>(...) Wars still take place, communists still exist, as do facists and nazis and other would be tyrants. (...)
Yes, you're right. The problem is that all of them (allmost) live in the US...
yessir collective stupidity has its advantages yup As an American i recieved a letter in the mail shortly after the columbine shooting. It demanded that i join a group calle W.A.V.E. Since we Americans are all about that Nazi shit started in Germany i promptly signed the membership form and sent it back. I now tell my kids to point out any potential crazies in school. Last week my Jimmy turned in 3 people in his history class because they actually studied for the history test and passed. Everybody knows smart people are depressed and will blow your brains out with a shotgun if given a chance (must be those damn id software games). Yessir that W.A.V.E group is the best damn thing that has ever happened to us Americans. enough bullshit -- WAKE THE FUCK UP!!! America can not be represented by one ill minded group. Just because we allow it to form doesnt make it reality. In America we actually allow intrest groups to form. it has to be said: Excuse me but can someone remind me who bailed Europe's collective punk asses out of WWI and WWII?
...to reward an anonymous tip off with a free t-shirt????
+++++
+++++
The harder you look the less you see. That's what we're up against.
If you want to look at another link, Yahoo has a press release on WAVE America. Check it out here.
--
"Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare,
Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare; but if you seek safety, it is on the shore.
Back in high school (many moons ago 'cause I'm old now), my friends were pretty weird. They drew pentagrams on their lockers--one was named "Hell Locker" and the other was named "Satan Locker"--and one friend drew a pentagram inside my copy of "Canterbury Tales."
Finally, I asked that friend why he was drawing pentagrams everywhere. He paused, smiled and burst out laughing. "Satan is so FUNNY!" he finally said. And no one at the high school ever said anything. The pentagrams simply vanished.
So where are they now? All doing just fine, thank you. One of them became a VP of Information Management at a big company; another became a programmer/consultant; others turned to acting and poetry. No psychopathic behavior, no nothing.
But if W.A.V.E. was around then, my friends & I could've been locked up or medicated. Then all that talent would've gone to waste. Is that what America wants? I hope not.
--
"Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare,
Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare; but if you seek safety, it is on the shore.
Since it was mentioned I thought people would like to know more about "The Wave" so here goes...
The book "The Wave - a classroom out of control" was written by Todd Strasser, Harriet Harvey Coffin and Morton Rhue (some sources claim that Morton Rhue was the sole author) and was released in 1981 (Amazon.com link) with ISBN: 0440993717.
There is a TV movie wich aired in 1981 (IMdb link).
It is based on a true story that occured in 1961.
disclaimer
All info was found on the 'net and should be checked before any claims to the truthfullness of the information is made!
//Patrik Graeser
On their site the yave the Wave card. It has their 800 number. One thing they want to do is turn it into a discount card. Rat on you enemies and save big money on cds.
There are times I am not particularly proud to be an American.
--jeff
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right"
-Salvor Hardin
you can always use the anonymous nature of the service to destroy it. Turn in your teachers, turn in your homecoming queen, turn in the star quarterback. Turn in every kid who ever threatened you, or ever threatened anyone else.
If you're feeling really cocky and have nothing to hide, turn in yourself, and calmly explain to any media that will listen to you about how your rights are being violated by a bunch of fascist rent-a-cops.
They can't investigate everything and still make a profit. They can't maintain their credibility when they investigate popular kids with influental parents.
What is your source for this?
It's a carbon copy of the Hitler Youth program used so successfully in World War II Germany...
I wondered how long it would take for Godwin's Law to take effect in The Katz Papers. Whoever said it was limited to USENET postings?
For those who don't know, Godwin's Law is (according to the Jargon File):
"'As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.' There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups."
The idea is by the time people start bandying about comparisons to the holocaust (and let's face it, are/were there any gas chambers at *your* high school?), any rational discussion has long since been lost in the growing noise of buzzwords and purely emotional appeals.
That being said, it's too bad Katz threads seem to almost immediately degrade into analysis of the Katz article in question, for often (as in this example), he has some interesting things to say.
The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
Moderate Alex's post up. Let's try to control the "knee-jerk reaction mode" until all the facts are made clear and discussed in a more non-biased manner. So in other words, until the nightly national news unbiased coverage *gag*
The US also has very good separation of church and state.
There is a case going to the Supreme Court (U.S.) today about this very thing. It's about school prayer at school functions. In this case a football game, or more specifically a Texas High School football game (which is a lot closer to religion down there than most religions). It seem a Catholic and Mormon kid were "deeply offended" when another student prayed over the loudspeaker, and since the loudspeaker is owned by the state, blah, blah, blah.
Speaking as a former Texas High School football player (and a former Mormon), I was offended that they would remove this common practice, for no other reason that it's a good idea to take a moment before such a highly violent activity and "pray" for safety. To be offended by the prayer's is simply ridiculous, I sat through innumerable ones and made my peace seperately, but (and here's my point) that's how much the U.S. tries to seperate church and state. Now if we could just seperate business and state, we'd have a government that looked out for it's people, not a few of their wallets or all of their souls.
--
+&x
_1984_ sometimes gets a little too much play here in SlashDotLand. A far better choice this time around would have been Sinclair Lewis' 1935 novel, _It_Can't_Happen_Here_, which was inspired by populist Louisiana Governor -- and, had he not been assassinated, likely 1936 presidential candidate -- Huey Long.
Jeff
Apperently you havent been in high school since this school shooting scare has come around. I have a close friend who was almost arrested at the end of last year because he made a joke about killing cheerleaders almost a year before. He asumed that the joke was absurd enough not to be taken seriously, but he was aperently wrong, since the cheerleader he was joking to turned him in last year because she thought he was going to shoot up the school. And now we have had even more privacy striped away since the school installed video survielince cameras in the halls... I'm sorry, but mandatory parent-teacher meetings about substance abuse are nothing...
"we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" --Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Enough of this doublethink ! The Thought Police will be around for the lot of you anytime !
-- Big Brother is Watching You !
"There's nary an animal alive who can outrun a greased Scotsman !"
Wasn't this an afterschool special? It was about this teacher, who had his students join a secret society that had a distinctive hand gesture to identify members (i.e. "the wave") and exclusionist tactics... Then at the end, he said, "Want to meet your secret leader? Here he is!" and showed them film clips of Adolf Hitler. The kids, for some strange reason (because it was an after-school special), were disgusted and learned their lesson about secret clubs.
But comparing "geek profiling" (a favorite Katz buzzword) to Hitler Youth.. well.. it just seems like he's heard of Godwin's Theorem, and hasn't bothered for arguments to degenerate -- he'll START with the Hitler comparisons.
--- Where's my X.400 protocol decoder?
The idea of wearing Trench Coats and wasting your classmates with guns and bombs is not something new to the 90's. Does anyone remember the movie "Heathers"? 1987 I think... Long before the "Trenchcoat Mafia". There's more connection between that movie and Littleton than with "The Matrix" but look which movie caught the blame.
As to "living in the hood" I am a White Boy (tm) living in South Central Los Angeles... I don't see Gangsta rap promoting actual violence. The main cause of violence that I see is that peolple don't have a sense of community anymore. We're all too paranoid that our next door neighbors are going to shoot us, so we sequester ourselves away in our little houses and isolate ourselves from the world. I'm pretty good friends with a lot of my neighbors, and that really helps tear down the racial barriers that the liberals and conservatives are busy rebuilding.
We did have kids going on shoot-em-ups before 1980, but the media ignored them... Hell, the most common crime in 1899 was drive by shootings (on horse of course) The level of teenage violence, and violence overall has decreased in the last 50 years, and still everyone is screaming that our world is falling apart at the seams.
When you attend a school, you are not a someone working at a job. You are a slave, bound by law to spend your time there, no matter how bad the conditions. Even here in Sweden, a nation not known for school violence, some telling articles hit the papers. In one school, urinary tract infections were increasing at an alarming rate. Why? The school board decided to close down most of the school's restrooms after one toilet had been vandalised. This is not an isolated instance. It is quite common for the whool school to be punished for the actions of one student. An environment not suitable for humans is not the place to grow up in.
"The good die first." "Most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying patterns." --- MST3K
There has been a second organization that is based on the Hitler Youth organization. It's international....it's called the Boy Scouts (and Girl Scouts).
'scuse me? The Scouts organization predates the Hitler Youth movement by decades.
I realize by the smiley that this was a joke, but careful, people don't always read to the bottom.
int rant()
{
What you dumbasses don't seem to realize is that criminals are criminals--they'll get guns no matter what, legally or illegally. Remember Prohibition? I'd rather have criminals with guns and homeowners with guns than criminals with illegal guns and homeowners defenseless. If a homeowner accidentally shoots a family member, you think that's the fucking GUN's fault?!? It's up to the homeowner to make sure before he shoots; in the meantime, guns provide a means of defense against criminals, and I feel safer owning a gun and knowing that I can defend myself with it, instead of me being defenseless when some burglars are breaking in carrying some illegally-imported guns from Mexico. The days of keeping a bat by the bedside are over; criminals will get guns, knives, anything they can use, whether they're legal or not. Besides, you people are addressing a symptom and not the cause, the problem isn't guns but the criminals themselves! Why do you people seem to forget that violence and crimes are down anyway, so you're whole argument that guns are creating a worse society don't make sense in the first place? And by keeping guns legal, we can at least regulate the damn things to the best of our ability (whether we're doing that or not at the moment is a whole other argument). Geez, what would you people do without me here to keep you in line.
return (1);
}
Well, applying a liberal constructionist viewpoint to the Constitution can be dangerous, as you can just interpret the document to be anything you need it to be at anytime to serve your own agendas. The Constitution was constructed as a skeletal work; it was intended that Congress provide the flesh through legislation, so "the right to bear arms" is a general phrase in the Constitution accepted to mean the right to arm ourselves with weapons of defense, and Congress, through legislation, determines what we can arm ourselves with. Simply because we aren't allowed to own a tank or surface-to-air missile does not mean our right to bear arms is being stepped on; we could still own a handgun and arm ourselves. I for one believe the Constitution/Bill of Rights is fine the way it is at this point in time, at least with regards to our rights.
Goddammit, I've been saying that same thing for years. People treat the symptoms and not the cause. It's time to stop doing that already.
What if my friend has a gun and a "gun-ring" on him, and a criminal comes up to us and knocks my friend unconscious. He falls to the ground. I grab my friend's gun and point it at the criminal as he comes at me, but, alas, the trigger is useless, I don't have the ring! Frantically, I struggle to pull my friend's limp hand with the ring up to the gun to try to get the damn thing to work, but it's been designed where he has to be holding it! At this point in time, the criminal bashes me over the head with a crowbar and I lay bleeding on the ground. He then pulls out his illegally-imported gun from Mexico that requires no special "gun-ring" and shoots me in the head. Then he takes my friend's gun and his gun-ring to add to his collection of guns with accompanying gun-rings that he can use in other crimes or sell on the black gun market. Maybe he'll even try to reverse-engineer the technology so that he can use any gun with just one special gun-ring. Just hypothetically speaking here...
I cannot believe that anywhere in America that this could happen. Not for the fact that it is stomping out rights of American citizens, but for the fact that this is going to cause fear, uncerinty and doubt FUD amongst the ones who feel they will be targeted.
Imagine a boy named Joe. He doesn't have any friends and he likes to play on the computer. He gets into programming and gaming. To all the other NORMAL kids he will be branded as different. To the NORMAL different is scarry so they will naturally use the W.A.V.E system to try to remove the scarry part of their lives.
Now Joe is going to realize that the other students are going to try to rat on him. Fear of being wrongfully turned in will will lead to more fear. Joe will withdraw more. He will also become uncertian of any thing he might try. Lending more credibility that Joe is different. Doubt of everything will casue him to withdraw from the society of school further isolating him from the rest of the students.
With all of this happening to Joe, he will possibly become depressed and quit possibly violent. The system has bread what it is designed to stop.
Considering the above example (which pretty much matches my elementary school experience, except that I was beaten rather than turned in) the system will create the subjects it needs to flourish. Considering the fact that this is a for profit making instution doesn't it just seem that they have created a self-perpetuating system to make money at the expense of children?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Anyone wearing one of the T-shirts? turn 'em in.
Or, better.. Turn in te HS football team. THAT is a dangerous level ofviolence, anger, and testoerone. Or the cheerleaders. Anyone with a self-esteem low enough to were those outfits MUST need therepy.
WAVE, or Working Against Violence Everywhere,
Sounds great. Hey! I'm in Chechnyia! Thanks for the website! It really helps.
Could you yankees go fix your yankee problems at home please?
I'm against violence Here. And here is where I'm sitting, and here is where you, the reader, are sitting. So look around you and do something.
I'm a sys admin in England and I have 3 daughters. If some corporation tried to tell me that one of my kids is "different", the only thing I would be worried about is whether they had the strength of character to stay "different" under such pressure. It's hard enough to conform in school as it is, without this pathetic attempt at conformity as enforced by witch hunt. Are we really in the 21st century? No doubt our own Mr. Blair, who seems to think America has all the answers, will be adopting this scheme soon.
not much has changed since the inquisition, only now we pay our children to be UNTRUSTING. do we really want to raise our children by teaching them to MISTRUST each other...!? this is just the beginning. ever wonder how big brother 1984 began? witchhunting reborn in modern garb. :-P i can't believe a country even dares to call itself "the home of the free" in a place where they allow something like this into the schools, and let it be run by a complany with a vested economic interest in keeping kids bound-up within CONFORMITY. just another reason why i'm glad i don't have to live in a country like the united states -- people are a little bit wierd over there.
the stronger locks you make, the more justified people will feel in picking them. the only way is to keep on TRUSTING -- DESPITE THE RASCALS THAT WOULD SPOIL IT FOR THE WHOLE BUNCH.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
(Benjamin Franklin)
johnrpenner@-nospam-earthlink.net
When I was in 8th grade, in the great Simsbury , CT, my vice-principal made a point of saying , all the time, how he didn't need a 'probable cause' to search me, or a 'reasonable doubt' to prove I had done something. He reveled in the fdact that while police officers need proof to harass adults, minors have no such protection. Oh, and my high school vice principal was the same way.
Juln
- a) I'm not an optimist, and
- b) this is America, a capitalist system, where nobody does anything for anyone else's benefit anymore.
So look forward to paying higher taxes so all the slightly odd kids can be put in new Juvenile Detention Centers. Either that or (quite likely) some people will hack the system and turn in everyone in their high school. Fun.It goes without saying that these guys will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
... but I said it anyway. Damn, I'm in a weird mood today.
--- this comment is presented in WIDE SCREEN STEREO!!!
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why our "love affair with guns" is "outdated"?
What has happened in the last 200 years that has fundamentally changed the nature of people and small arms?
Geeky modern art T-shirts
You mean Joeseph McCarthy... Jamie McCarthy is a *anti-fascist* who writes for /. and censorware.org
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
) You people in america REALLY need to stop this now. The police state is only a matter of time, if patently unjust activities like this are allowed.
In an American high school, this could get really out of hand. I don't know what high school is like in any other country, but here it's an incredible opportunity for misuse.
We have:
* Parents who insist that their children must be under thair control at all times. The idea is not to take responsibility for teaching your kids what is right, then trusting the kids to take responsibility for themselves...it's "You do what I tell you to" and if you don't, "Blame Canada."
* Kids who are going through adolescence, which is already tough. They've experienced this "protect the children" idea all their lives, and they don't really understand the reasons behind it (does anybody?). So they're confused, resentful and immature.
* An opportunity for said kids to take out that resentment on people they already don't like, with the encouragement of their parents ("Oh, yes...turn in that naughty kid who might be DANGEROUS!")
Man, what a vicious cycle.
But really, it doesn't make any sense. It's a GREAT way to get somebody in trouble fairly anonymously. In high school, there's always _somebody_ who doesn't like you--I would imagine that this WILL get out of hand very, very quickly; what's to stop a school from having _every_single_ kid be "under suspicion" within WEEKS? That would pretty much invalidate the "usefulness" (hah!) of the program.
So what's a good, civilized country to emigrate to?
How hard is the language to learn?
How hard is it to get immigration?
Will I be able to get by on a BS in physics, or will I have to work at some kind of minimum wage job (will there be a minimum wage)?
What are the chances that I'd be accepted, as opposed to being considered some kind of outsider due to my non-native status?
Seriously, at least I'm used to the US...maybe my vote, my speaking out, can help change it--if I do try and I get no results, leaving will DEFINITELY become an option.
http://www.mutantwatch.com
except Jon is describing reality, not fiction.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
You mean like the "liberal fascism" perpetuated by the conservative republican Orin Hatch when he suggested that "depression, an interest in social issues, and strange manners of dress" was evidence of teen drug use?
How about majority leader and house speaker Trent Lott(R-MS) suggesting in a local (Wash DC) interview following Columbine suggesting that students who are outcasts should be watched closely and monitored?
Maybe you should check up on those you've been voting for.
As I grew up in France and spent the three years in an American high school and one year in college, I think I'm well placed to respond to this comparison.
As I recall from France, the 'geeks' were at most tagged as the 'intello' and the goths were maybe called accordingly, but everyone could talk to everyone and it would be perfectly okay to invite people of all kind to a party. Sure, people of the same kind would stick together more...
In contrast, American high schools keep tight cliques which set groups of jocks, geeks, blacks, etc. strictly apart from each other. This is partially because the difference between the groups is a bit more pregnant, but mainly it's because that's the way it's always been, since the days of Puritans or slavery.
Especially when coupled with a database! One thing I would like to know is whether this database that is being compiled has limits set on it (and by who?) - such as the data is deleted after graduation from high school (or maybe a fresh start between "levels" - elementary, jr. high, high school) or when you reach 18 years of age, that the data is available to the parents at any time, that the data is not sold to anyone else, that the data cannot be used against me by a future employer...
Think this can't happen? I can assure you it can (I still cringe at the fact that somewhere my fingerprints are in a database from being ID'd by one of those "save the children" type, "keep-your-kids-from-getting-lost" campaigns my parents took me to when I was little in the 80's), and probably will, unless proper safeguards are put in place...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I work at an IT company, somewhere around 100 employees. All of a sudden, we impliment a new drug policy just because "other local companies are doing it".
:)
Turns out the only other local companies are manufacturing plants, and they do have a high rate of drug use in some plants.
The only heavy machines we have here are S/390s
I guess some companies don't understand how to make effective policies for ADULTS. Is it really necessary to put up a sign in the bathroom requiring all employees to wash their hands after ????
(really!)
Steven V.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A SIN/0440993717
The novel's author is Todd Strasser... I would imagine this is an adaptation of the made-for-TV movie.
I saw the headline for this article, and was thinking "wouldn't it be weird if this were the same as that book we read in 5th grade?" Naturally, "weird" doesn't begin to cover it...
Thank God I'm not still in school, andGod willing, Poway Unified doesn't pick up on this nightmare in the making...
--
WHOA!! Ken and Barbie are having TOO MUCH FUN!! It must be the NEGATIVE IONS!!
Gotta agree...if they're going to use it in schools, I'd like to see it in the post office and government offices as well. OTOH, I can't imagine anything more painful than having to sit on some guidance counsellor's couch and have to say things you don't want to...I'm so glad I'm out of high school. It's been five years, but what a difference the time makes...how pure everything seemed then.
BTW, anyone find it interesting, the relationship between www.soman.com and Aldous Huxley?
Smugness creates a sense of false security. If you are not on guard for your freedom, others will take it from you.
It was just one. However, another student was injured. It happened in Taber, a bit down south from where I live. A small town known for its corn.
*G* soman.com...oops, my Freudian slip is showing :-)
Yikes, Wired and Salon and Adbusters should know about this. I bet Jelly Belly has a stronger privacy policy.
The irony of both names (mere coincidence?) is incredible. Why do I increasingly feel I live in a George Orwell book?
:-) heheheheh! At the rate CSIS is loosing confidential documents in public places, maybe it won't happen. OTOH, I live in Alberta where a kid who was picked on (and I believe he had a heart problem as well) killed one kid and injured another. Everyone called it a rampage. Hmmm...it seems sad, it *did* happen here and I shudder to think of what that school is like now. The year after I graduated from my high school, teachers started carrying walkie talkies and cameras were put in. I'm so relieved...that I got out in time.
Find out who's behind this and report their children. For being under the dangerous influence of some dumb adults.
... how do they know to which address to send the shirt?
"In a newsmagazine survey taken earlier this year, 81 percent of Americans said they believed the Net was responsible for the Columbine massacre. "
For some reason, I just don't think I beleive this. Where'd you get this one Katz?
I wonder what DB they will use to store this info. Most likely M$ sql server with default settings, allowing world readable and writable permissions :)
I can see it know 'I don't like that bloke lets tag him as dangerous and potentially violent'.
Hmmm
Oh me next! I'm a geek! I wear the fashion suicide articles of clothing (at least that's the way I'm looked at) I don't get along with a single girl (if you can call them that) on my floor except my roommate, I'm alway in front of a computer, I've even covered all the letters and symbols on my keyboard with nail decals to be *GASP* DIFFERENT! But I'm an intelligent person, and why should that and my strange sense of humor, and my complete lack of desire to be in with the in crowds make me one that could be dangerous?
TURN ME IN, I'M GUILTY OF HAVING:
AN OPINION, A MIND OF MY OWN!
String me up, it's a witchhunt!
"Spandex, it's a privelege, not a right." -Cereal Killer, Hackers
As far as I understand things, minors are not without rights - their rights are merely temporarily looked after by their parents. As long as this is made clear, concerned parents can protect their own children from the effects of WAVE and other such programs.
For instance, should someone in authority attempt to use 'evidence' from WAVE as an excuse to search, expel or punish a school kid, the kid's parents are perfectly entitled to demand that a court order be issued.
Of course, should adults lose these rights too, we're in deep shit.
/-\-/
Putting aside the perhaps unfortunate-yet-inevitable Hitler comparison (can't we think of any other dictatorial demagogues who had lists of enemies? Nixon, perhaps? McCarthy?), let's look at what this is for and what it recommends. First of all, I don't think anyone can be blamed for wanting the schools to feel like safe places to be. I mean, come on. If I had kids, you bet I'd be scared and nervous about having them in school right now. Scared and nervous people tend to approve of what in less nervewracked times they might consider extreme measures. I think this is one of those cases.
To be more fair, remember that the coverage we've received so far is very, very shallow. Consider the following questions. What level(s) of school will the program be implemented at? High school? Middle school? Kindergarten? Will it be implemented statewide? Do the schools have a choice about participating, as the website seems to imply? Is there a system for dealing with those who would use this as a tool to target and punish their rivals? Do the kids understand that there are consequences, and the magnitude of same? How do the administrators and teachers feel about asking their kids to rat on each other? How do the parents feel about it? These are all things I would need to know before I completely freaked out.
OTOH, what I do feel is a valid concern is the vagueness of the criteria given to kids as valid reasons to call the tip line. I quote:
It's that last one that's really unnerving. (On a lighter note, I do think it's amusing that drugs and alcohol are reportable offenses while cigarettes are not.) I mean, okay, it's going to be bad enough that we've got kids calling in other kids for having swiss army knives (he's got a knife! Don't be stupid; do you think I'm going to hold the principal hostage with a three-inch blade?), but we're going to have kids calling in other kids for anything perceived as harmful. Think about this. Whose definition of harm is being used? Are we talking about bodily harm? Mental harm? Harm to belief systems? Where does the line get drawn?
I've got two friends who teach middle school in the city; I'm really looking forward to talking to them about this.
concerned, but wanting more data,
everstar
LINKS! GIVE A LINK FOR THAT LAST REMARK!
The movie was based on this teen novel which was published in 1981.
"So many ways to skin a cat, and still everyone uses a great big knife."
Hopefully, school districts in places where Pinkerton is a swear word won't be employing this system. But memories can be short so you never know.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Frankly, it amazes me that after their part in the labor struggles of the 20th century that the Pinkertons are even still around, and successful. I mean I suppose historical evils like the Nazi's still hang around, but they aren't part of mainstream society or anything that decent people want to be associated with.
Oh, and incidentally it doesn't matter whether or not, "N.C. is trying to root out video game playing," what they are doing is giving High School kids a place to send poison pen letters. Want to get someone in your class you don't like? Just call the Pinkertons, they'll take care of it for you!
I mean seriously, you'd expect them to have at least done some research on the movies they show to school kids. My English teacher in junior high showed us all The Wave the same year she showed us the Diary of Anne Frank. It's comical that something which aspires to be a U.S. version of the Comintern/Hitler Youth would choose W.A.V.E. for their name.
Well, I guess we should all be happy that a company with a proud tradition of union busting, strike breaking and general oppression is bringing it's techniques to the American public school system. Of course, where I went to school we learned all about the Pinkertons, I wonder if they'll change the history books in the school districts where the friendly Pinkertons are helping out? Of course I did go to school in working class Irish NJ, I suspect they may already have different history books in NC...
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Well, see the Pinkerton's will be able to pick and choose who goes into the database. So, if Johnny X gets "called in" to the database, and he's on the football team and Daddy is a city councilman, the call gets labelled as a "prank call." On the other hand, Suzy Q., Wicca practitioner from a broken home, gets put on the list really quick. Remember the Cont^H^H^H^HPinkerton Detectives are detectives after all, unless they are swamped with calls they'll be able to decide which student would enhance their reputation by being on the list and which might bring lawsuits or political troubles. It's a win/win situation.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
You know, the interesting part is that this for profit organization may turn this database into a company like doubleclick to make a profit from it.
Can you imagine being labeled as a dangerous kid, and the next day having banner ads for gun shops and other interesting potentially destructive things come up on all the webpages?
This may sound backwards but it would feed the system. If you bought a gun from the internet, and DID go and kill people at school, it would encourage people to report more people to the company, who would then feed double click, and they would feed guns to these people, and this repeats ad-nauseum. The kids are being exploited for plenty of personal gain on the behalf of these other agencies.
This may sound paranoid, but admit it, it is not below double click's ethics....
-Paul
"I will
Resolve conflicts peacefully.
Talk about problems openly.
Treat others with respect.
Walk away from a fight.
Take all threats and warning signs seriously.
Talk to a parent, counselor or other adult about
my concerns."
Sure I'll walk away... With my black belt in karate the other guy only will be able to crawl away from it (if he's lucky)
For all of you who think that the internet is just a "group of interconnected computers and switching hardware":
The internet is alive, and it is sentient.
Read this article posted on gogeek.org.
Its humorous. Feel free to laugh.
Aren't they afraid of using the very thing they identify as contributing to the problem, to combat the problem; namely the internet? What if someone goes to snitch, uses the web site and becomes contaminated just by the act of using the web? Horrors! (or is that Whores?)
This also does nothing to lift NC from the image of a rightwing goon state. Too bad, as I'm sure most folks there are not of that mind.
Why not have a teacher invite you in to talk about your expereinces, explain how you have used the differences in a positive way, show that conformity breeds stagnation, and how understanding can create new opportunities for all.
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Just report the children of all North Carolina state and local representatives.
If you demonstrate how damaging this W.A.V.E. idea is, I'm sure they will squash it in a hurry.
I just sit back in my chair of adult-hood and watch America burn.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
You forgot two lines:
Take all threats and warning signs seriously.
Talk to a parent, counselor or other adult about my concerns.
I have the email address adolfhitler@waveamerica.com. Please email bomb this address to bring their servers down.
Freedom must continually be fought for.
Of course the sons/daughters of politicians could be nice kids - it doesn't matter if they are or aren't. The point is to make the congresspeople aware of how inane and dangerous this program is by putting it under their noses, seeing as they're the ones with the power to do something about it. I think this joke is very funny (and almost feasible).
Wah!
Orwell was also off by about fifteen to twenty years in spotting this pilot project. See, this is why the Hitler Youth analogy scares me: if you teach someone as a child or teenager that a certain set of behaviors are acceptable, they will carry that attitude with them into adulthood. Once you are an adult, the attitudes you learned in school will be used in--and by--the corporation, or the government.
Corporations love having narcs working for them. My fiancee's brother recently applied for a job at Circuit City. They made him fill out a questionnaire that asked, among others, two interesting questions: "What would you do if you found out another employee was stealing?" and "What would you do if you found out another employee was using drugs?" The correct answer to either, of course, is to notify his supervisor immediately. The answer given to the second was "If he's only smoking pot, probably nothing. What he does in his spare time is his own business." He didn't get the job. He had good references from previous jobs selling electronics, a clean record, and he got along well with the managers and staff at the Circuit City to which he applied. But the answers on his questionnaire were mailed off to corporate HR to be graded there, and they said he didn't get the job.
Katz is far from the first to notice what schools actually do. It has been long observed that the first and foremost duty of American Public schools is not to educate, but to turn children into adults that will be useful to the best interests of society. At present, society's best interests are not defined in terms of benefit to those who live in it, but of benefit to those who own it.
--
This is not my sandwich.
If you disagree with Geek Profiling, and want to tell someone about it... you can contact The Pinkerton Service Group via: dan.miller@psg-pinkerton.com
it's a sig, wtf?
Get a list of students from as many NC schools as you can get. Then - register ALL of them. The program has to die soon after that. I'm sure about 10-20 people can do enough damage to this system to get it eliminated. Even better, I would recommned putting the governor's kids (if they exist) in the list.
------ Warning! You are too close!
It was not the geeky loners that were dangerous when I went to school. It was the pack of 4-5 steriod injecting meatheads who terrorised kids and shook them down for their lunch money but were defended by school officials because of a winning sports season. Why are people persisting to apply cures to the symptons and not the causes of problems.
"Pro libertate" - "FOR FREEDOM"
Depression is an on going battle in my life. Like some of the people described in this thread, I am not recognizable as a "depressed person." However, it is a battle that I fight daily. It is something that I will never allow myself to be overtaken by, however this determination requires a large amount of conscious effort. Through the use of daily reflection, a strict regemine of (recommended) herbal drugs and the occassional "non-herbal" drugs, I am able to live what others perceive as a normal life. I have made myself into a person who has a desire to live and to be successful (relatively speaking) in my life. I have found that there are pleasures in life, but there will always be a cloud that follows me around and will be a burden in my life.
- -
I am not a doctor, but this is my 2 cents:
I hope that one day I will not have to suffer from this "disease" and that I will not have to deal with the hardship that has been handed to me, but I refuse to give in to it...and that is what seperates those who are depressed and those who can cope. I hope that anyone who reads this and relates to it can find in themselves the determaination that I have found. There is help out there, but you have to want it and have to find it for yourself. It won't find you. There is a drug that you can get at your local herbalist drug store (here in Las Vegas it is at Spartan Food and Drug) called "Mind Trac" that has helped me out immensely. It is all herbal (doesn't imply healthy, but compared to the alternative....) and when taken with St Johns Wart it is considered to be as effective as prozac without some of the chemical side effects. The only downside that I have encountered from this drug is that (like most herbal remedies) it only lasts about 4-6 hours, so it is necessary to take several times a day.
I wish all of you out there the luck and hope that I have found. Take care.
------------------------------------------
Please give your mod points to others, Im at the cap. They will appreciate it more
Some snippets from their pages (emphasis is theirs):
The WAVE Card It's coolSo be sure to visit our website on a regular basis (lots and lots of times) to check out what great deals and free stuff the WAVE Card is going to get you.
Remember, we're going to be constantly updating the WAVE Card offerings, so did we mention that you will want to visit us lots and lots of times.
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
Read some history, Coward.
McCarthy gave a speech to a local gathering in Wheeling, West Virginia in 1950 (which also plaigarized a speech Richard Nixon had given in Congress) which claimed that there were 205 Communists in the State Department. He even produced a piece of paper that he claimed was "the list".
When called before the Senate on 20 Feb. 1950, the number 205 had shrunk to 84. McCarthy presented a number of case files of these so-called Communists. It was clear that he was reading these dossiers for the first time: some of them contained evidence and testimony that actually cleared their subjects of Communist ties.
It would have ended on that embarassing note, but the North Koreans saw fit to invade South Korea that year.
The bitter end came in 1954: the Army-McCarthy hearings. Remember Cohn and Schein? Joe Welch? Fred Fisher? Pixies?
You have about as much a chance of rehabilitating Tailgunner Joe's cirrhotic memory as you'd have trying to get Father Coughlin canonized.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"You missed the biggest problem with it... They'll give kids cash, T-shirts, etc, for these calls. It could easily lead to (and im sure it will somewhere if it goes national) "bounty hunting"-like activities. It'll no longer be about helping friends, it'll be about finding someone you can get away with reporting, and get as much cash as possible."
:)
I just looked at the site:
http://www.waveamerica.com/
and I don't see any mention of cash, just prizes. Where on the site does it talk about getting some cash?
The sign up page says this:
"Sign up for the WAVE, and free email isn't the only perk you'll receive! If you're a middle or high school student in North Carolina, you could also win a free computer! And that's just the first of many prizes you'll be eligible for as a participant in the WAVE. You can also become a WAVE Reporter and share your stories, poems and art on this website. So, be sure to signup and tell your parents or guardians about the WAVE."
So, a drawing for a free computer and some t-shirts. I think the average Wal-Mart grand opening
has the same stuff.
Do you really think that this program will get kids to narc on each other that WOULDN'T have done it before?
The restriction on unreasonable searches and seizures is taken to mean a right to privacy. Thus speaks the Supreme Court.
---
You were a moderator with 5 points. You should have read the moderator guidelines before you did any moderating
Thanks for the support from the others who posted concerning the poor moderation. This is where meta-moderation is useful.
:)
It probably was a Trekkie.
Wouldn't this proposed program partially fall under the rule of the COPPA since it's asking children to submit information online?
Looks like this would be a good legal stance to fight it from, however it'd probably just make them take the "squeal on the kid you hate" webpage offline and refer you to their 1-800 number.
But still, aren't there laws against collecting the marketing data from minors that could be used against this? Or has Matel, Sega, Sony and Nintendo gutted our children's privacy now?
I completely disagree with programs of this sort! However, even if there were an actual problem, programs like this target the effect, not the cause!
Say what you mean, mean what you say! But please know what #$@% you are talking about!
This proves to me that "children" don't need protection, they need their RIGHTS to be protected. Specifically, that they are human, individual, and have the potential to outsmart anyone given time to grow and learn. The notion that age is a suitable measure of intelligence and a qualification to be treated fairly is an outrage. I'm not going to suggest petty alternatives, I'm only focusing on the glaring flaws in our system that created these frustrated angry (young) PEOPLE in the first place!
As a couple of people have indirectly pointed out,
this simply cannot work as expected. The geeks,
loners, freaks, etc. are too intelligent not to
subvert the system, sign up themselves and turn in
either the most popular people, or the entire school.
Letter to WAVE:
Rediculous. It's the goddamn programs like this that fuck up America. Let's "rat" on kids for being depressed, or saying stupid emotional crap when they're down, or high. Has anyone ever thought that maybe the American school system sucks. Has anyone ever thought that maybe school should be re-thought. We're schooling kids on a system that was institutionalized in 1776 [well...way before then]. Bleh.
You're rewarding kids for telling on their friends, classmates they dont know. Have you thought about how many prank calls you might get? Probably, about %50 will be phony calls from kids who think this is rediculous. Well...I'm tired now, need to go to sleep. Then I can get up and go to school! Hooray! I'll be sure to watch out for any sad people, or for any geeks who surf the net and who think. I'll be sure to give you guys a call so you can....do what about it? People will call....So what.....the WAVE team will come rescue the school? WTF?
Wave Three is the next generation. Deep stuff huh?
Maybe thats what they want...if we're all danerous, we can all be dealt with...
There are plenty of smart, well-educated people in the upper ranks of many of these organisations
involved with planning, legal situations and fundraising. Just because they're bigots doesn't
automatically mean they're dropouts.
There are exceptions as i said...but they are just that, exceptions.
So if I act like an arsehole I deserve to be shot?
YEA, MAYBE! Maybe then people today would learn some common manners and consideration for others. Just look at how people drive. Its not just one or two people, its most. They don't care if they're tailgating and thats its very dangours, they want you out of their way, they don't give a fuck. So ya, maybe if it was legal to shoot very agressive drives we wouldn't have a road rage problem!
I do...look around and you'll see that 95% of the population is petty, selfish, and completely idiotic. Remember these are the people that pay 2.5x as much at compusa, drive minivans and suvs, and would happily give up thier rights to be "safer." They don't trust the gov't but they sure as hell don't mind letting it make more and more decisions in thier lives.
Problem is, history shows you usally don't have the armed forces support. The other problem is that the US forgot we aren't supposed to have a standing army in peacetime; it should be virtually non-existant. Why? Its usually used to crush the citizens of its own country. One thing in this thread is right tho...history repeats. The scary thing is how short an amount of time is needed for it to doso anymore..
Someone with some sense. Oh and the militia is there to protect you from the state. The "free state" would be you and me. Interestingly enough, the Framers understood that most people are stupid, which is why we have an electoral vote instead of a direct one. They were hoping the electorates would be smarter then your average joe, and could even vote opposite of what the people really wanted (b/c what they wanted was foolish, or more harmful then they realized, presumably).
I've read the book, but I'm not sure if it was based on a true story or not. The book is pretty creepy.
Matt
Ummmm .... I've been to the WAVE site, I've read the press releases. Nowhere can I find any indication that WAVE or anyone else will be giving away stuff to informants. They have the WAVE card, which may, in the future, be used to get discounts (ooh! 5% off a CD that's been marked up 50%!), etc. But, that's about it. Only WorldNetDaily has said this.
So, anyone have real info/proof? Bueller? Bueller?
-----------
"And I thought 'Reverend Billy
That's great! I love it!
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Suppose that Harris and Klebold could have called into W.A.V.E. to report the people who were antagonizing them. Voila, several positive things happen:
- The database gets rendered less trustworthy.
- Harris and Klebold get their yucks harmlessly.
- Most importantly, the official bullies of the administration turn their attentions to the bullies-in-training. These are the ones who need to be counselled, not some geek who only wants to be left alone.
Geeks aren't violent as a rule, but social engineering is another matter. Using a fink system such as this to stigmatize and constrain jocks who slam people into lockers and other sorts of bullies would be one of the first uses, and probably one of the most successful.Which doesn't make it a good thing (I think it sucks), just a good tool for that particular job.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
When are these people going to realise that rebellion has a very valid part to play in *any* society.
Furthermore that the society that has no rebellious influences will stagnate, fragment and lose cohesion.
All these people can come up with is the attitude of...
Become an informer!
Rat on your buddies!
Betray your friends and family!
Fantastic prizes to be won!
Remember kids! Guns don't kill people - Americans kill people.
Whaddaya mean, "would be"? Try "was", for similar reasons. It's gotten worse; that doesn't mean that it wasn't bad before.
--
Make Money on the 'Net
Sig broken, watch for
How was Dr. Carson helped?
"So kid, you like using knives on people? How about becoming a surgeon."
The first temptation is to shout "Sieg Heil!", but the truth is that J. Edgar Hoover kept just this type of data base, covering such dangerous radicals as Martin Luther King, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Lucille Ball. Presumably, all you Southerners should remember that White Anglo-Saxon Protestants rule, and your neck should be red, not black, brown, or yellow. Those with pasty white necks will be sent to seminars on wearing gimme caps. Pinkerton, keepers of the newest data base, showed their taste for Truth, Justice, and the American Way when they shot strikers during the 1930's. I am not a Socialist, and never will be, however I remember Mr. Socialist, Norman Mattoon Thomas. He was jailed as a dangerous radical for reading the US and New York Constitutions in public, had his phone tapped by several law enforcement agencies, and suffered much abuse from established business and political interests for promoting laws against child labor, for limited work weeks, and for a national retirement program. Every plank of every political platform he ever wrote or advocated became law of the land before he died. Enemies of radicals should be chastised. Bastinado will do for a first offense.
If it isn't a hoax, it's awful pathetic. Why can't I find this using my usual search engines? Does any body know where we can get more (reputable) information?
"The easiest way to get shot is to carry a gun." -- Atticus Finch
"The great object is, that every man be armed. Every one who is able may have a gun." -- Patrick Henry, June 14 1788
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, 1977
I've seen this type of attitude in alot of discussions here on slashdot in regards to actions by individuals, companies, and politicians. I don't think it right to stereotype any country for the actions of a small group.
And one word about politicians, for those who say its our fault for what these people do because we voted for them, please remember that the choice of who to vote for is very limited. Its most often a matter of choosing the lesser evil.
Check out AbiWord.
the US seems like an endless source of curious and macabre entertainment, all one really can do is sit back and enjoy (and hope that the punch line doen't hit your own nose). I have always liked being on an entirely different continent than the USA although I'd prefer a different planet or solar system.
I'm trying to submit a very vulgar and graphic complaint through their "submit concerns" form, and I keep getting a scripting error.
And is ANYONE surprised they use Micro$ux software?
http://www.netcraft.com/wha ts/?host=www.waveamerica.com
-- The Brory Stool Co.: We accidentally the best stools from behind seven proxies, since 2009.
People look on depression as being a Bad Thing, but some of the most incredible people are or have been depressive, take Winston Churchill, who battled all his life with what he named his Black Dog, his fight against depression
gave him the courage and the commitment to fight on against the Axis forces even when victory seemed impossible, or Sylvia Plath, a great poet, who had such a creative energy, depression can be a good thing if we listen to it,
understand it, use it to free ourselves, after years of not understanding what I was depressed about at the age of 30 I finally understood, I wanted to be "normal", or more correctly, those around me wanted me that way, it has taken me
a Herculean effort to face the fact that I am extraordinary, I dont mean that I am "better", just very different, when it hit me I was like Neo after he was resurrected, my perception of the world, and the people in it shifted completely, I
became a thousand times more aware, I understand human history, why people do what they do, and why we need to change, if I did it, I know others can too, so look inside yourselves, what is your depression telling you, and what
are you going to do about it?
Didn't Plath kill herself eventually?
There is a basic method to fighting depression from a mental means. Philosophy usually works just do this:
Ok people say things and atempt to make you look bad or evil right? Well just make sure that you loathe them and don't give a shit about their ideas. Make yourself the center of the universe and then nothing can hurt you because you are god. Works wonders and can't fail.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
I seem to remember a TV movie years ago about a California high school teacher who tried to explain to his students how the Nazis and Hitler Youth were accepted. He created a "pride" organization in the school that became very
scary pretty quickly -- all to demonstrate how it happened. The name of the organization -- and the movie -- The Wave.
Is it my imagination or does most of the really bad things regarding social matters usually happen in California?
The point is that it is rather impossible with thinking people in a democracy to create such an organization. You see there are things called laws. Movies are merely delusional attempts to create what some want to believe and force as an agenda.
I think that if you really wanted to change the world for the worse a group of propaganda films intricatly done would work extremely well for that purpose.
A pep club is a long way from the hitler youth movement and social clensing.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
You think you're being cynical and realistic, but you're not nearly cynical enough. You do realize that the movie is based on real events, right? That the author of the book was the teacher of the class in question? Now, that still leaves room for
all sorts of distortions, as you'd probably point out, and you are right. But what are you offering as an alternative? That it is "impossible in a democracy" - sounds like a solid bedrock principle. Sticking with your principles over public opinion
is idealism, but favoring your principles over fact is delusion.
Do you really think that work for long. They tried some Nazti shit that like that with me and I would most likely have the courts all over them in a second. I am sorry if I am ranting but we had pathetic attempts to stir people back in the 30's during the great depression in America and it didn't work at all in any way.
The best way to prevent people from getting out of hand is to sue them. I would almost say that perhaps I might just become a lawyer so that I can protect my own interests from being trampled on.
People in California how shall I put this delicately, are far and above more likely to do things like this. You have a greater international focus, more liberal arts type education, and recently new technology which has made things like this more of a reality.
A school with adolescents who base their judgement on flawed reasoning is not the best analogy. I can even back up my statement. I have a publication from the American Psychological Association (not with me at the moment) which essentially states with statistical evidence that adolescents have a difficult time distinguishing fallacy from fact in carefully construed situations like the one you are describing.
My principles are based on logic. Since people know of the Natzis and since books have been published and all sorts of other things have happened a logical human being will not be tempted to believe something that they see as readily.
I have no real idea why people would be suckered into such a thing, but then again I haven't watched each and every cinematic work down the pike in the last ok I would say 10 years or so. Believe me if this sucker tried this where I live I would break his ass so fast he would be saying guten tag back to Deutchland so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.
I assume that this subversive group did more than just insidious propaganda. Really I tink I am more qualified about covert operations than anyone. They want to play dirty, you play dirty. If they natzi's try to threaten you. You get together with a group of people and kill some natzis. Simple. An eye for an eye.
GEORGE HEBERT WALKER BUSH is an anagram for HUGE BESERK REBEL WARTHOG
Never was much into anagrams or their significance. That's most likely a Mensa thing and not something that concerns me. I really would like to know why they even play a role in anything anyway. Fun?
Bush is not the worst choice. McCain seemed hellbent on controlling the internet through censorship and such, at least Bush hasn't directly done as much posturing as he did. Gore is part of the Clinton administration and rather bland. Considering how many flubs the Clinton group has had I would not really want him to be running things. I don't like Chinese nuclear missiles pointed at me thank you.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Go to http://www.waveamerica.com/scripts/report/rptdrill down.asp?pStateID=NCSS
Pick any school, submit a complaint. Use civil language, be concise, try not to misspell any words.
Submit a few thousand complaints each and we'll be set.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
It's a real program read it from their site: Waveamerica
-------- This space intentionally left blank --------
America is on it's way to be the first state to show that Orwell was right ...
It's scary to see Orwell's "1984" becoming reality. Soon there will be no one to contradict the American government, because all who'll try to will go to jail.
HELP! I hope this won't happen to Germany, too.
The Pinkerton Agency has a special hated spot in my heart.
The Pinkertons are the ones that shot Jesse James's family.
It was a Pinkerton spy that informed on the Molly McGuires.
It was Pinkerton thugs that threatened striking miners in West Virginia with beatings and machine guns.
The list goes on and on... The Pinkertons make big business these days with union-busting and workplace spying. It figures they'd try and extend their reach to High School.
-carl
. We've got computers, we're tapping phone lines, you know that ain't allowed - Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
Having a database of troublemakers could come back to haunt them. Suppose an enterprising troublemaker haqs the database and contacts other troublemakes. That enough will spell revolution. Individuals can always outsmart beauracracy and a government has never been able to withstand change without changing. Although this is not good, it is not the evil end of the world.
"To save the planet, I had to go to the worst spot on Earth, and that was Philadelphia." -- Sun Ra
Talk about life immitating art.
------
James Hromadka
"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." -- John Ashcroft
Its listed on the internet movie database here: http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0083316
"If IE is 'just a web browser' then emacs is 'just a text editor'."
My experience has been with both small and large companies. Currently I work for a startup but the only company I worked for that required drug screening was Motorola.
Any stats on what percentage of US jobs require drug testing?
Official? No. Just my own experience plus that of friends in the tech and non-tech industries. So far the only person I know whos had to have a drug screening was my brother for a mechanic job.
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
Care to share what other info is there and how you know about it?
In fact, according to the Fair Credit Reporting Act (not a very accurate name), the Credit reporting companies don't really have to remove inaccurate information. Sure, you can send them a protest letter, but the incorrect information still stays on your report and you're still denied credit based on it.
Credit-reporting agencies are required to investigate any claims made about bogus information and reply within a certain amount of time. What you said about incorrect information staying on your report and still being denied credit based on it goes completely against my personal experience. I had several fuck-ups on my credit report where a charge card I had closed out years before was magically reopened and charged with something my mother bought. Of course I kept all the records that showed that the account had been closed for over 2 years and was paid in full. How did I find out about it? I was denied a checking account at a bank. Got my free yearly reports from all three agencies and found I had marks against me for this card for it being 120 days+ overdue. Sent them an investigation sheet along with my paperwork and guess what? The information was taken off and wasnt on the reports the next time I checked. And guess what? I was able to buy a car and get full financing as well as more credit cards.
As to your claims about the MIB please give references and I'll be happy to research it and see for myself.
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
puh-lease. we all dont have to 'piss in a jar'. I've only worked at one place that required a urine test for drug screening and that place had a lot of people operating dangerous machinery. There are plenty of good and valid reasons to have drug screening. That is not to say that it couldn't be abused but please don't make it out that we're all being watched by Big Brother either.
I get so sick of these type of posts. Its this sort of crap that makes some people who live outside of the US think its some sort of police state (yes I do know several Europeans who had never been here who thought that).
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
I am glad I live in Europe, which is fast being overtaken by America in terms of stupid rules and stuff.
This all followed by the gem: Europe is much more free, but more expensive
So on the one hand you have more 'rules and stuff' there and you admit that America still has fewer rules yet Europe is 'much more free'. How exactly does that work?
Do you Americans wish for something like the UKs Data Protection Act? We have had that for 16 years now, and it has been updated to reflect the new Internet economy. You are allowed to find out about anything stored against you in databases, and to ask for that information to be changed or removed if it is incorrect.
I have yet to find an example of a database in the US where this isnt true as well.
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
This program appears to be well intended
We all know what road the Good Intentions Paving Company maintains...
While it's true that if this program is used only as intended it could help some kids who desperately need it, I don't think we can trust people that much. You can't possibly expect kids to use a system like this the way it is intended. Kids in general REALLY disklike anyone who doesn't "fit in". This dislike often borders on hatred. While I don't think the average kid would misuse the system, there are too many who would. It only takes one kid to "report" on little Johnny to ruin him. Once that kind of accusation has been made ( especially in today's climate ) it becomes a case of "prove to us you're not dangerous". This system is a bad, bad idea.
I'm glad I finished high school years ago before the world went completely nuts, but what do I do about my kids??
"The obvious is that which is least understood and most difficult to prove." -- A fortune cookie
This is exactly why we collective members keep our geek pride behind a curtain of conspiracy. If this "wave" ever hits Idaho, it's going to get a back-splash. The Collective will not be crushed! We will rise. I knew something like this was comign! Now that I'm prepared with my Mr. Ripley act and my individualisism and Netizenship will just have to be under cover, exposing only to other non-conformists. http://go.to/Netropolis
poop.
What? Kids..in school...rat on each other to
parents/teachers/whomever? Unspeakable...
Never before in a history...
--Ugen
If G.W. Bush is elected president, I see Roe v. Wade getting overturned within two years, and I see school prayer getting the okay as well. I just got done calling my senators to express opposition to the flag desecration amendment (would eventually outlaw desecrating the U.S. flag), but I'm betting that it'll pass regardless. Sure, Vermont okayed same-sex unions, but California strongly rejected gay marriage, as have the great majority of states. Now the whole WAVE thing.
Look, I don't hate religious people, or pro-lifers, or conservatives in general. But they seem to want people like me gone, and I'm getting closer and closer to happily obliging them. I'm not sure if I want to raise kids in this country; not because of violence, but because of the political atmosphere.
In other words, you're not a eurotrash weenie; I agree wholeheartedly.
-brennan
Everybody gets on the bandwagon. If the blacklist that Pinkerton's is trying to build is filled with everybody, perhaps by volunteers calling from payphones (Remember that 800 numbers are NOT anonymous!), the system will collapse from too much spurious data.
"We has met the enemy, and he is us..."
/(o\ I'm not a medievalist - I just play one on weekends!
W.A.V.E. T-Shirt
Look on D00M
players face as
(s)he is cuffed
and dragged out
of school in front
of "friends"
or AC/DC blazing "Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!"
--Clay
Actually, there was a branching in the meaning of the word "liberal" after the first world war.
Libaral used to mean, for the most part, what American's call Libertarian. This is the classical liberal. The framers of the Constitution of the United States were liberals. After WWI, socialism really started to get a toehold on the politics of the day, and they resorted to all sorts of nasty propaganda and word twisting. (Even if you are a socialist today, you have to admitt that this did occur. The socialists back then were definitely not nice people.)
To the great dismay of the liberals of the day, the socialists took the words "liberal" and "freedom", twisted them well beyond their then-standard definitions, and applied them to themselves. This is a standard case of "Newspeak".
Now all that is long in the past, but the strange conflicting meanings of certain words presist in our language. Additionally, there is also a divide between the US meanings and those that are now standard in Europe. I might conjecture that this is because of the more pervasive influence of socialist thought in Europe.
If you want to look at original meanings for a guide to how a word should be used:
liberal or classical liberal - a person who believes in free trade and a limited government.
Libertarian - Here the Americans actually have the correct definition. The US Libertarian Party uses a classically proper application of the word.
- Recruit allies.
- Get copies of the student directory. Every students name in alphabetical order
:) - Begin making reports at random intervals of time using differnt mediums.
- Start having my allies do the same.
Should make a joke out of it real fast.--Have a Johsonville brat.
So, help these folks find 'troublemakers'. Turn in yourself, for prizes! Turn in your classmates at random! Make names up and turn _them_ in! Turn in teachers!
Let's clog their files to the point of uselessness!
Turn in people at random? Don't most schools have a directory? ^_^
The one result I do expect to see from this is that they will have a list consisting of every student in each school participating. Frankly, I think the list of people submitting names would be far more interesting and useful...
--Arcum
I'm impressed. Not only can we now stand up on the hallowed floor of Congress and claim (as once Senator Joe McCarthy did a half-century ago) "In this envelope I have a list of the names of people who represent a threat to the security of the nation," but we can also add "and I got PAID for it." The comments and references to Hitler, relevant as they are, allow us to distance ourselves from our own fascist past. How soon before someone is executed for a political belief? I personally want to register all the members of the Amish community as being antisocial, wearing an inordinate amount of black, and generally being weird. How many dollars do I get? And while we are bemoaning the very real dangers of guilt-by-suspicion-for-pay, let's not forget all the times we volunteer our information. How many bags of chips (or anything else) do i get to with my grocery "savings" card before I get my "Go Directly To Jail" card?
love&peace
wrong. here's the page:
-Spazimodo
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Millennium Crisis Line: 0890 900 2000 [calls cost 50p/min]
I'm reading a lot of posts squeling like stuck pigs, and they're all keying into one or two items.
If all you read is this authors inflamatory article and get all hot and bothered, then you are no different than those who blindly went trailing behind McCarthy in the 50's.
Also keep in mind that not all geeks are depressed, gun toting misfits, and not all non-geeks are not.
"Lend your ear while I call you a fool" Ian Anderson
While I find the whole concept of WAVE repgunant, I also think that it could easily be used by the traditionally isolated segments of the student population to speak out against the abuse, violent and non-violent, that they suffer. It may not be what the designers of the program had in mind, but when 75% of the students reported are from the 'popular' crowd, they will have to rethink their assumptions.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440993717/ qid%3D954336930/002-2114430-5785861 JFYI I think this attempt *strongly* resembles methods being used by the characters of this book. Some people (including ME :) would call this FASCISM. But I think theres one way to fight this: Start denouncing everyone you know at school! Ask your fellow students to denounce everyone else - and each other! Why not beat them with their own weapons?
...before every kid in high school has some sort of listing in this database ? We know that this system will be abused, but why not take it to the next level: spam it. Filled with random information, how could the data be useful ? Also, how do you get the free t-shirt if you are anonymous ?
I found JonKatz's article to be thoroughly inflammatory, with no regard to proof and/or evidence of the "rat-on-kidz" approach by W.A.V.E. So, an 800 number on dangerous behavior is geek-profiling and, unconstitutional? Could someone find out for me what pharmaceutical products Katz uses for recreation? Along his line of thinking, an 800 number for suicide prevention is a societally-imposed barrier to freedom of expression instituted by "da' Man" to keep us all down. Katz also provides no link or information on Mosaic 2000, only mentioning it as Orwellian "security" software. For information on this "Big Brother" software, (only for those who seek information and not trumped up hype), check out: http://www.gdbinc.com/mosaic2000.htm Kind Regards. dragon2eden
Regards, Paul Cox --------------- "It is right to be taught, even by an enemy." -Ovid
...is that while some fruit-cake wakko's can suggest such stupid ideas. Others can collect enough $ to collect about 10,000 copies of The Wave and a small plane, fly over the NC Capitol building and pelt it with the books (Hopefully knocking some sense into the idiots below). It called freedom and can work both way's. BTW While the US Constitution protects freedom, it say's nothing about privacy!
--- Nothing To See Here ---
Ok - the home school comment is out of line - many people home school their kids without being bible-thumping freaks (yes, I put my asbestos suit on). It's also for kids who are too smart to be in the regular system.
"The romance of Silicon Valley was about money - excuse me, about changing the world, one million dollars at a time."
Visit
Ok - the point is not about calling communists communists. The point is that we have no right (nor should we care) to find out if they're communists. It's simply another political system, people. Flawed or not, we shouldn't persecute people as McCarthy did.
"The romance of Silicon Valley was about money - excuse me, about changing the world, one million dollars at a time."
Visit
It is much more practical and better than 99% of the others out there...
IIRC from history class, Pinkerton detectives were a major pain for early unionizing movements (in the late 19th century/early 20th century, again, IIRC); pinkerton detectives were hired by companies to control strikes, spy on workers etc. so they've had dark spots in their past too.
-------------------- the list is long. dirac angestung gesept
Man, If this had been around when I was in high school, I would be locked up! It sounds like if you arent popular you are going to get 'turned in'. Am I the only one that is seeing the Salem witch trials??
"Sex is a very natural and wholsome thing, but only if it isn't done right." Welcome To Paradox
hehe i just got evilteenagekiller@waveamerica.com... maybe that'll make people think twice before spamming my email address :)
===== Warble://VX
Remember John Rocker? His attitude deviated from polical correctness and was forced to visit a therapist to have his mind "fixed". Wasn't he terminated from the team? "Can't be having people who think differently from us on our team, now can we?" So much for tolerance. Conform or be persecuted.
So this is starting up in the south, eh? I'm from/in the south (Virginia more specifically) so besides taking the laborous task of writing snail mail to my "representative" in state government how can help? Perhaps we should just bypass our state legislators and governments and ask congress to ban this. It all reminds me of something I read posted on another site by a libertarian:
When they came for the 4th amendment I didn't say anything because I wasn't a drug dealer
When they came for the 5th amendment I said nothing because I was innocent
when they came for the 2nd amendment I said nothing because I didn't own a gun
Now they've come for the 1st amendment and I can't say or do anything about it.
Pathetic
I would be exactly the kid who would be reported as "different" or "potentially violent". Friends have told me how people i dont know have mentioned that i creep them out or scare them.
That said, my friends and i would also be the ones who would take the school directory, 5$, and a landline telephone and/or school inet connection, 15$, and systematically report everyone in there for something slightly different. I wonder if we could shirts printed up...i would really like a Spy uniform... (too bad this isnt 1984).
Eraser
This is *SO* wrong. This is *SO* very wrong. This is *SO* Orwellen(SP?) it maks me wanna puke. The people doing this have to be ignorant as a sack of doorknobs, I refuse to beleive that anyone can be that evil. Oh, now I have an upset stomach...
Heh, time to prank call it a-la bart simpson. :)
Ivanna Tinkle has been really depressed lately, and she spends alot of time on the internet looking at weird websites like freshmeat too!
And little Rob Malda helps run this dangerous website filled with hate towards society today! He should be in jail!
Seriously for half a sec, this is ridiculous, not only will geeks be scrutinized because of this, but most all teens go through some kind of depression, its normal for teen life.
bah, someone find me the 800 number
no
How soon they forget...
That's exactly what I was thinking. When I was in highschool, (private catholic all-girls), the administration had a list of the "troublemakers" that included me and various other people. Whenever something bad went down, each of us on the list was brought in for a conference and encouraged to rat upon our peers. If that didn't work, everyone in the school was encouraged at an all school assembly to rat out anyone they knew to be involved.
The funny thing was, no one would rat anyone out. Not even the exclusive rich and popular group, (yes - we had all the standard cliques, even in private school), would try to rat on anyone else. The administration's plan backfired as their plea to have us turn on each other, created moments of solidarity where no one would say anything against anyone.
One time, my entire class was told that we'd all be serving a Saturday all-day detention if someone didn't come forward to point out the guilty students. That Saturday, we all showed up and sat in our seats. We didn't discuss it beforehand or afterwards. It was just understood.
- tokengeekgrrl
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions
Hisory repeats itself. Why? Because socity fails to learn from its mistakes. Why? I'll leave that as an exersise for the reader.
Thad
Thad
Can anyone name a bigger threat than the Pinkerton corporation itself? 8D
Report Pinkerton corp. to Pinkerton corp! This is what they want, and, yes, they're right, people should know about this!
Take back our schools! THEY ARE YOURS AND MINE!! They're for students: all fo them, not just the ones we like, and not just the ones that the "experts on humanity" of psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors and private corporations think should be there.
I've gotta say, this scares me. Thank God I'm outta highschool in a couple months. I've already been through this whole witch-hunting thing though. I'm a quiet kid, I keep somewhat to myself and (God-forbid) I happen to own a rather nice black overcoat, which I'm fond of wearing. (I go to a private school, so dressiness fits.) Based solely on these facts I was accused by random classmates (whose identities I was never allowed to know) of being a member of the trenchcoat mafia, and suspended for three days until I recieved a psychological evaluation (at my family's expesnse) saying I wasn't a threat. And afterward, despite my innocence throughout, I never recieved so much as an apology from anyone in the administration. God, this world scares me...
I said that democracy thrives on capitalism.
new democracy(united states)
has a capitalism as an instance variable
I'm sorry it does.
.sig:
http://siokaos.org/
Is it my imagination or does most of the really bad things regarding social matters usually happen in California?
It was a movie. I think the really bad things are happening in North Carolina. Granted, we have had some rather silly propositions passed in the last two years in California (22 this year and the one on horse meat last year), but I doubt that we have the corner on the market for bad legislation in this country.
The point is that it is rather impossible with thinking people in a democracy to create such an organization.
Thinking people... in a democracy... Where do you find those? Tommy Lee said it best. "A *person* is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
I think that if you really wanted to change the world for the worse a group of propaganda films intricatly done would work extremely well for that purpose.
No argument here. We have millions convinced that marijuana is more harmful than alcohol and nicotine.
A pep club is a long way from the hitler youth movement and social clensing.
Tell that to the people that fear high-school gay/straight alliance groups.
cheers,
Wheee!!!
Well, I picked up killmomanddad@waveamerica.com
"America, I smoke marijuana every chance I get."
I know that many people today have touched on the disturbing and frightening symbolism (i.e. the W.A.V.E name and "The Wave" movie, 1984, Nazi Germany), but the most interesting cliche that I found was on the front page of the Wave's website. They wrapped five children up in the American flag as if the United States has to resort to fascism to protect its children! The symbolism is outrageous and personally disgusting. "Protect the children!", wrap yourself in the flag, it makes me sick how people can take their personal agendas and think that they can hide behind them! People are better than this. If not, God help us all.
I'm reminded of the line in the first Addams Family movie where Wednesday is dressed up for Halloween. She's completely non-descript because serial killers "look just like everyone else".
Now don't get me wrong, this might be true and if it is it's a Very Bad Thing, but what exactly is the source of the story? Any school press releases? Anything from Pinkerton's? Or has someone just made it all up? The WorldNet report doesn't link to any external material apart from another WorldNet report (recurvise journalism). Hard facts welcome.
So in short it appears to me to be a campaign to let people know how do deal with being bullyed, get them to not bully others and generally get through adolescence undamaged. The "Big Brother" bit seems to be spin by suspicious journalists. Here in Britain there's a (gasp) toll-free number called ChildLine for kids to ring to report abuse, bullying etc etc. Dark Instrument of the state's Legions of Terror? Hardly. By all accounts it 's been very useful for child victims of violence.
They only had 28 Secret Police (Gestapo) agents overlooking a million citizens in certain areas. The majority of the work was done by citizens who turned each other in.
If you were a loner, and someone reported you, they hauled you away.
Is this what we want for America?
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
It's amazing how people so smart with computers can be so fucking dumb about politics.
-=RR=-
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
Hi
IIRC America does not have an equivalent law to the European Data Protection Act, where you can find out what information is stored on you and get invalid information fixed. If this is a for-profit organisation what is to stop selling this information on to College Boards, when you go to apply or even future employers?
Frankly, I'm not surprised this is happening. I consider myself a nerd. I am on the yearbook commitee at school, and I was voted "most likely to change the world". Nothing wrong with that, but several people put little mushroom clouds next to my name. I get straight As, and once, three kids beat me up and I got suspended for it!!! No kidding!
http://www.waveamerica.com/scripts/signup/TeenSign up.asp
yep that's it right there, go and grab your very own @waveamerica.com email addy
I hate to dissapoint you, but i already took
trenchcoatmafia@waveamerica.com
solly!
God what a stupid login name - i should get a new one, but it'll be 6 months till I moderate again.
sig?
Ok, so a kid gets reported for behaving "differently" - then what happens ?
Do they break through his door dressed in full combat gear, wielding shotguns and teargas and frog-march the kid into custody ?
Sounds pretty damn scary to me - another great american witch hunt baby !
Little bo peep 'rats' on the freak,
The feds come and take him away.
Said the feds to the freak,
are you some kind of Geek,
with your anti-social ways ?
Are there bombs in your bag,
is that a gun in your hand
are you some kinda gay ?
Said the freak to the feds,
your outta your heads,
your taking my freedom away !!
Blam Blam Thank you Man
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
But we are rapidly getting there. They'll probally be trying to brainwash us into being happy that we got turned in, too. By the way, We don't have any rights, the teachers say "check your rights at the door", and quit frankly, they are right. We can't speak our minds, we definetly don't have due process, and the chances of our interests being looked after are very low. Take at my old school, for instance. We used to like to play Dungeons and Dragons, untill they banned it. Why did they ban it? Because it was "gambling". We never bet anything, and we never got into a physical altercation over it. Basketball was allowed, however. There were many fights with basketball, but it was okay. Even in the school handbook it says "rules may be changed at any time". They are all doing it "for your own good" too, but it isn't really for your own good. We should all call up the "anynomus tip lines" from payfones as a protest against being persecuted. I'm sure that there's a lot of these lines out there, they've got one in my town. If anyone's interested E-mail me at mrroboto@startrekmail.com I'll build a site and assign a day or something.
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
The waveamerica.com domain is owned by someone who at least claims to be part of Pinkerton/PSG.
"Ain't no right way to do a wrong thing."
Sure this program is a right step in early detection and prevention by raising awareness, but a depressed teenager is more likely to see themselves as being or try to conform to the image that their peers attribute them with.
A violent person who is dobbed in may receive a boost to their violent irrational thinking when they realise that their attitudes strike fear in the minds of their peers. Depressed people will only withdraw further into themselves when others point out to them that they are depressed and thus socially inept in a peer group, leaving them contemplating suicide as their only escape. Encouraging other to start labelling and categorising these people in boxes will only further exacerbate their problems and leave them feeling isolated without solving the problem immediately.
Personally coming from Australia, which in fact has one of the world's highest youth suicide rates in the world, it is rather fortunate (in a twisted sense) way that our tough gun laws prevent the distressed from taking out their anger on the rest of society, but onto themselves. I know that I shall be flamed by the pro-gun NRA lobby, but taking away the right to a gun from teenagers is obviously the first step in controlling the situation and reducing violence and copycat incidents in the United States.
After that is done, it is essential that the depressed and troubled teenagers of America not be filtered, separated and isolated by their peers as a result of the judgements of inexperienced watchdogs in the form of teenagers, but by closer-nit school communities that can diagnose and counsel together. The last thing troubled teenagers want is to tagged and become a target for ridicule by 'poachers'. Counselling cannot be applied nation-wide. There is no one quick cure for depression and mental instability that is applicable en masse.
Everyone must be treated and diagnosed as individual, no matter what their state of mind is, by trained professionals who have the patient in mind not their wallets.
-- "I can't tell the future, I just work there." -- The Doctor
It's not a question of pride. I am not proud to be an American citizen, as I wouldn't be proud of having a Senegalese passport, or of being a white male. It's an accident of birth, and I'm quite willing to point out flaws in the political setup of any country I "belong" to, just as I will highlight the good bits.
The beef I have with CCTV is that it violates what I believe to be an unwritten right to privacy and anonymity, especially in public areas. I do not trust a government or any organization to responsibly handle information it has about me, thus by extension, the less they know about me, the better.
Concerning a Bill of Rights and a Constitution, they're great ideas. If you have them. If you follow them. I don't recall the precise details, but a while ago someone did a survey with provocatively worded questions; some absurdly high percentage of Americans polled readily rejected the fundamental rights due them by law. I'm no great follower of the idea that the peasants must be beaten into accepting what's good for them, but that's just scary. Paranoid and extreme as it sounds, that's exactly why I don't want to be prosecuted for owning guns, saying what I want about the government, acting provocatively in public, refusing to quarter troops in my house, not paying oppressive taxes, burning flags, etc. etc. etc.
However, I think you'll readily agree with me that without guaranteed and respected freedoms, such as those guaranteed by a code of rights when respected, prevent the unwashed masses you and I tend to elect to political office from passing laws that say "yeah you can be free and say what you want unlessit'ssomethingIdon'tlike!"
In an ideal world, I live in a country with a government that collects no information about me (CCTV, profiling, whatnot,) and which has strong data protection laws, alias UK, Germany, Switzerland; national pride has nothing to do with it. Alas.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
You can substitute anonymity for privacy if you're going to be pedantic about it.
Better? :-)
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
I, for one, would love to see how I'd score on the high school Junior Gangsters of America exam.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
But you can easily DoS the system completely by simply having everybody turn in everybody else; this way we can also make a nice buck together.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
I'm fifteen years old, a sophmore in high school, and I'm a computer geek. I make sarcastic remarks in some of my classes that I probably shouldn't, I'm sure that there are some people that don't like me. Will they report me because of this? I hope not. Despite the fact that I have no rights as a minor (seems like that's what we're headed to), I'd like to start a petition about this new W.A.V.E. I'm sure that if I can get even some students to sign out of the 3,000 in my school, my Florida senator will consider doing something about this. We need to act, not talk. Inform adults, parents, and school officials that you think might care. I'll do anything (legal) in my power to keep this out of my power, and others should as well. Personally, I don't think that pacifism is the way to react to this one: get signatures. This concerns me, as well as it should concern others.
...true land of the Free....nothing like this could ever happen...hey, wait, who are you? What? Canadian Security and Intelligence Services? what is that...no I will not come with you,hey, stop pointing that thing at me....ack! my eyes.....I can't see! [please diregrard this message, the author has been taken to our "offices" in the arctic]
Going on means going far
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
It took me a while to track this down, and it leads me to suspect that our Mr Katz didn't do very good research either.
1) The name of the organization isn't W.A.V.E, it's S.A.V.E - Students Against Violence Everywhere. Its home page can be found here.
2) The program is not about a month old. This site lists the coordinator of the program from October of 1994. That makes it about 65 months old instead. Actually, according to the organization's history SAVE was begun in 1989.
3) What has happened is that the program - Pinkerton's toll free phone number - was included as part of the recommendations from the Task Force on Youth Violence and School Safety, which in April of 1999 was tasked with further reducing school violence. You can read a press release from August 11, 1999 here.
4) The official connection is here, the page of the School Programs of the Crime Prevention Unit of the NC Governor's Crime Commission. (I assume it's supposed to be the crime prevention commission, but we all have an opinion about government these days.)
5) Part of the information is loosely correct. There is a toll-free phone number. The reporting, however, is to notify law enforcement of school violence either in progress or anticipated soon. It is not a place to report students who might be potential "dangerous students" someday - the geeks, the depressed, the lonely, or whatever.
6) The program is run very much like the DARE program. This is intentional as the source material indicates. I am not discussing whether this is good or bad.
As with any such program there is a potential for abuse, and I'm not in a location to evaluate it. But the degree of error in Mr. Katz's report leaves him with a significant loss of credibility - which is too bad because I actually find most of his columns interesting. Now I'll have to verify his facts before I trust his opinions.
The inferences and conclusions I made from the referenced material is wrong. See, the governor of North Carolina did indeed start the Working Against Violence Everywhere (WAVE) program. The press release announcing it is here, and was made February 10 of this year. The actual description of the program is very close to where I already listed, and can be found at this site. Which means, of course, that it's my credibility, not Jon's, which leaves something to be desired.
Sorry for the misleading information and the impugning of Jon's professionalism.
Also remember how all that got rolling: concern over how we'd "lost" China (as if it were ever ours) and the search for someone to blame.
I reported Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and for good measure, Stephen Hawking.
There's also a section of the form where you can enter in what concerns prompted your report--why not fill it up with reasons why you don't like them? Or just paste in a bunch of text to fill up the database.
Vive la resistance!
Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
1. Use a Demon/War Dialer. Keep the phone lines busy during school and evening hours.
2. "Hacktivism". These people are just begging for it...
3. Call once a day to report Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates,...
4. On a similar vein, start a print/web/tv ad campaign featuring important people in the computer and business worlds who would have been branded by W.A.V.E. in high school.
5. Operation Spartacus. Students turn themselves in, whether they fit the profile or not. In addition, organize groups of adult computer professionals, research scientists (NC has plenty of those!), and members of the software industry to turn themselves in.
6. Grab the symbol of W.A.V.E. or Pinkerton Security and turn it into a badge of honor. Use it for web pages like the blue ribbon campaign. "W.A.V.E. decided I was a threat to myself and others because of my computer knowledge!" Hell, gays did it with the pink triangle. Or the Mögen David: in Nazi Germany, it was used to mark the Jews and connoted weakness and subhumanity. Now it flies on the Israeli flag and on one of the most impressive (if not largest) military forces in the world. (OK, so that symbol has been around forever and has many meanings, but you get the drift.)
Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
Fact? can I see that statistics?
I myself just took the data of the UNITED NATIONS CRIME AND JUSTICE INFORMATION NETWORK which offers international crime statistics in a database (Access 97)
I took the Following numbers:
Numbers of thefts/Robberies (Field 66a + 66b)
Numbers of Homocides ( Field 62e)
That's about what you wanted to compare, or?
Well I compared the numbers for USA and Germany (that's where I live, and I know that Gun's are regulated quite strict here) as of 1995 (The newest numbers available).
The raw numbers are:
USA Thefts/Roberies: 618.817
USA Homocides : 23.692
Ger Thefts/Roberies: 63.576
Ger Homocides : 1.680
Now considering the different population:
USA : 272,639,608
GER : 82,087,361
(From CIA-Faktbook,all numbers from 1999)
Sorry for the discrepancy between ne numbers from 1995 and 1999 but that's the only numbers I got.
Now lets calculate the above numbers per 100,000 inhabitants:
(rounded to the tenth)
USA Thefts/Roberies: 226.97
USA Homocides : 8.69
Ger Thefts/Roberies: 77.45
Ger Homocides : 2.05
Do you still hold up you oppinion? (Or can you give me facts supporting your oppinion?)
This is eeriely similar to "Night Watch" from babylon 5, where some people on the station had to report "suspicious" and "unpatriotic" behavior in their friends to a dictator-led government.
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
Another brilliant insight on what it takes to be a man posted by "Anonymous Coward."
Please.
Your employer, your government, and your doctors already have you fully profiled. Gattacca is not fiction. Your information is in a database and it is for sale.
When you lick a stamp or envelope.
When you visit the dentist.
When you pass through those anti-shoplifting devices and metal detectors at airports and bars, they know how much money you are carrying and who you are by the cards in your wallet.
Smile next time you visit an ATM.
If it can be realistically imagined, it has already happened.
Lars -
I was browsing job banks in monster.com the other day, and it seems Gateway requires that thier bench technicians (A+ certified) are required to pass a pre-employment drug test.
They sure wouldn't want you to come to work wasted and accidently kill yourself with that deadly phillips screwdriver!
Lars -
if this had been in effect before i dropped out of school, i would have been at the top of that list.
i suffered from severe deppression for the 1 1/2 years that i managed to stay in high school. i was constantly up till 3 am only to wake at 6, not eat brekfast and then go to school, i had a knife with me at all times (it was a swiss army knife, a tool. but a knife none the less). i had headphones on constantly blaring loud angry music, and to top it all off, i wore combat boots and a chain around my neck.
so, i think it would have landed me with the police and a psychatrist had this been in effect. would there have been a reason to? no. the only law i've ever broken has been copyright law.
i've never harmed another human being although i have martial arts training. oh lord, i spend many many many hours on the internet. gosh, the net is just such an evil thing... it makes me more aware of what is going on as i can read of happenings such as this. yup, i've gotta be looking up bombs, and nazi propaganda. thats all it's for right? that and porn. |End sarcasm
ok, so to end my little rant... this stuff pisses me off. and would have been bad for a lot of people who are doing well now. like most of us. if we don't fight it, all the little screwups we used to be will be in a lot of trouble.
-------
-------
"don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck
at least i can fucking think"
Minor Threat
Damn, you are so lost! When did this weird strike of paranoia hit you?
OK, so you're saying that in places where guns have been banned home invasion has risen. Well, let's assume that you are right (which I doubt).
Does that scare you more that knowing the number of people killed yearly in the US using guns? I don;t live in the US but if I had the choice to lower the number of break-ins in the Netherlands by 50% while increasing the number of people killed in shootings by 50% the choice would be easy: I would prefer people living to a couple less break-ins.
Ladies... Gentlemen... We've got anonymity, and cash prizes... I, for one, have yet to see my 15 minutes of fame. I wonder how many times I can nominate myself as a deviant, dissident, depressed individual.
I read a humorous article the other day regarding the music industry's response to Naptser. Their recommended solution, entitled "Project Zaptster", puts countless copies of "Achy Breachy Heart" and other derided "country" tunes under the names of popular songs so when Napsters are seeking pop, they'll actually download "Achy Breaky Heart". By repeatedly not getting what they want, Napsters will eventually go away. While the article was facetios, I found this particular point intriguing.
Perhaps by submitting conflicting and just plain wrong information, we can persevere. At any rate, we could use the money we receive from turning ourselves in to regulate our militias! Maybe even get matching t-shirts? Anyone.... Anyone?
on the other hand, katz has yet another over wordy article, however this one he does imho bring up some decent points for a debate, though i'm still curious as to his own views on this and the other posts
A short note on conformity ... in my experience school uniform relieves conformity pressure in a high school environment. Teenagers are highly tribal and status sensitive. Clothing is one of the easiest way to display that status, especially on the basis of wealth. Uniform clothing removes one dimension for picking on people who are different.
The US is an extroverted society - it advertises and idolises public involvement, confession and celebration. This particular uneasiness with geeks seems to me to stem from this - a constant campaign against introverts.
Poems about Columbine
Some students there have been working through their feelings about the event, and expressing them in poems.
It's interesting, b/c one of the students was friends with Dylan Klebold, and she has something to say about other than "YOU MONSTER!!!!"
--KenG
This looks like a list of "Things To Do Today" for the average jock...except for the "feelings of isolation" one.
* Hits or bullies others.
* Expresses uncontrolled anger.
* Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
* Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.
* Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
* Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or
rejection.
* Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.
* Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.
* Makes threats.
* Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in
school.
* Is easily angered by minor things.
*shakes head*
This week I've found two Slashdot stories worth spending much time reading.
/. postings.
2 43
2 19
/. password).
One was about someone who set up a system where members of a school could report anonymously on what they thought of other people. The content was largely personal opinions, ranging from kudos to libel.
These results were immediately made available to the public, without moderation, and become a 'rating' for the targeted individual. Readers are invited to act on this information.
The freedom for someone to provide this 'service' was largely defended in
In other news,
Someone set up a system which allows members of a schoool community to voice fears about the genuine personal safety of themselves and their friends.
This feedback would (theoretically) be forwarded to appropriately trained individuals (deans, social workers, peer groups) for evaluation, and possibly acted on in a manner appropriate to the community.
At no point should the information that someone was accused, or the exact details of that accusation be made public, although records may be kept.
/. posters almost entirely derided this concept, and many folk activly suggested mailbombings, server hacks and flooding the system with misinformation.
The stories:
Professor Sues teacherreview.com Site Operator
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/26/202
Geek Profiling: The Next W.A.V.E.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/28/183
------------------------------------------
Now personally I don't think much of either of these concepts.
I choose to be naive about privacy issues (I got nothing to hide) but educated about the options (I CHOOSE to have cookies enabled because it makes my life easier, I don't have to remember my
But does no-one else see the paradox in the two stories?
You want to have your privacy & deny it to everyone else? Or vice versa, everyone has free speech as long as they aren't talking about you behind your back?
There will be a new web page soon that will post "among other things" the addresses and phone numbers of any and all corporate executives of major corporations, or even small ones that are worthy as Pinkerton is worthy of our scrutiny. As much information as is NEWS worth concerning them will be posted as well, including their photos, etc.
Heh, and this 'invasion of privacy' (tongue>cheek) is different from their actions how? Because your definition of NEWS is morally superior to theirs?
- not flamebait, just philosophy. I laud your action, just wanna doublethink your justifications.
By a carefully thought out scheeme, the MS Windows distabilizes an individual, depresses him or her and puts weapons in their hands. The controversial boot up logo contains a masked picture of Bill Gates riding a golden stallion with a spear in his hands. This image is the first attempt on your psycho-normality (if there is such a thing as normality.)
In this case Linux creates an opposite effect of stability, it secures an individual and it balances him/her out, it is a perfect anti-dot to depressive modes infiltrated upon anyone by Windows.
Let's have a statistical analysis - how many of the mass killings were attempted by those who run Windows as opposed to those who run Linux?
Statistics will show, I am sure, that this proportion has nothing to do with the number of Windows users as opposed to the number of Linux users.
You can't handle the truth.
A new tool of repressive society. If you don't understand something - get rid of it (or at least put it on prozak)
I am sorry for the kids and even for their parents who think (if there is a capacity to think left in them) that this form of repression will benefit their children.
I am sorry for those kids who are already depressed and now someone will make their lives even more miserable.
The worst possible type of slavery is slavery taken with gratitude.
Do you really want to live in the society where it becomes dangerous to draw dark pictures? to be depressed (for now don't worry about the reasons as to why you can get depressed in such a society)?
Here is how you will know whether I am a danger to your society: Early Signs of violence
Here is where you can submit your concerns about me: Rep ort a fellow student here!
Here is what you will get if you report me in: See what you can win if you sign up!
Is this life worth living? Does W.A.V.E. make it more so? What happened to the snitches in the World War II? What happened to their concience?
What will become of a person whose morals are based on a simple notion that being different is bad for the society and that all such behavior must be reported and altered? Is such an individual truly healthy? Does it matter?
What will become of a person who is different and who is percieved as dangerous to the society and whose behavior must be altered? Will he remain human after the alteration? Any power conflicts? Is it worth going on, if you are a danger? Are you ok with them altering your behavior? Should you be treated as a criminal because you think differently?
I want to escape reality, I want to only exist virtually for some time
You can't handle the truth.
if you don't believe the reporting, why not check out the website, instead?!?!
They are going after the wrong people. The reason people are freaked is because of the media -- which brings out copy-cats, which then hits the media, which brings out copy-cats... They should be creating a task force to investigate media sources, to go after the inventions the media come up with (the Jon-Benet case springs to mind), and to make sure no-one is paying for the media (or at LEAST say 'this company owns this media outlet'). Kids are confused enough. Put that energy where it's needed -- educating them instead of making their lives hell.
"Thank you. Please spellcheck your genitalia references though.
I agree. It all starts with good intentions (in this case by the schools and parents; probably not by the company). Babylon 5 showed this is amazing detail (for those who experienced the entire series), and as such makes a very good example (and is not in the least bit offtopic, seeing as how it gives a nice example of this very idea).
A Frontpage site.
Why am I not surprised?
It sounds like you about due, I am turning you in before anything happends
Please, if the internet was responsible, I'd like to know how. I want to know what type of scripting it takes to make a web site pull the trigger of a gun.
Death::Handgun
It is avaiable on CPAN, requires Perl 5.005_0 or greater
Also you may wish to check out
MentalIllness:insane
from CPAN, it can randomly geneartor sublime messages in an web page that causes the users to have a mental break down, most of the time the user will kill on demand. Actucally, you won't believe this, but Microsoft uses these on their hotmail service, but Microsoft claims that the huge amounts of spam cause insantiy and not immoral programing.
On a related topic, most colleges are now offering classes for CS students that involves creating voilence in soceity though the use of '1's and '0's
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
"Hey you hungry"
"yea, want to get a pizza?"
"No cash man, hey lets go turn in those freaking goth people, they always come up with $15 of so a peice"
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Don't worry, I have already reported him to WAVE, his school, the local police department and the FBI. He will be punished^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H err "helped" shortly for his inappoirate actions.
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
This whole WAVE thing is really unsettling. First off, it puts unstable teenagers and the like in charge of other unstable teenagers. In highschool, at least for my first year, I was a loner. Accorrding to this, I could have a SWAT team banging down my door searching my house for guns and stuff. Why? Not because the government was concerned about my checking out an anarchy web site, but rather because I didn't conform to societies deffinition of what's normal. This is the first step to bring about the Macarthy (sp?) era again. Everyone looking at everyone else with a careful eye, do you think they're a comunist? Better to be safe than sorry, let's tell the authorities that he/she is. How long before someone turns someone in because they don't like the other person. This has the potential to get out of hand really fast. Now I know that some people think that this is a great idea, and if one person can be stopped before he goes on a killing spree then it's worth it, but it's like they say: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Let's stop this before we're looking behind our backs every minute, not for big brother, but for everyone else.
Why is it that people always hear what I say, and not what I mean?
I remember High School, here is how me and my friends would handle this: I call up and report every single person in my class, including myself, then my best friend would do the same, and so on, by the time it was over every person within my grade would be missing so many periods a week to be "counselled" school would be like one big, permanent, counselling session. Get pissed off at that cheerleader? Draw some mean pictures, sign her name, and fax 'em in and say how depressed she's been acting (and how she's been wielding her emory board very menicingly at you!). In seriousness, the propensity for abuse of this is just mind boggling, knowing how vindictive and, frankly, how much fun, I would have had with this in high school it scares me what even less normal kids would do with such a tool. Grimster
--- www.f-theocean.com
Wow. Can you spell "reverse discrimination"? I knew you could! Whats with everyone dissing jocks for? Jocks have been some of my best friends and have just as much a right to be the way they are as you do. :) In any case, do remember that some jocks are geeks, too. :) And in addition. I find nothing wrong with rubbing up against other guys and lying down with them. Sounds like a fun friday night to me. ;) Mmmm. Beefcake. Chason Chaffin
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Contrary to popular belief, stupidity does have its limits. It is a good thing, then, that our race is
I just wonder who was trolling better, the original poster or the moderator who flagged this as interesting? :)
Actually, my take on it is a little different. The death counts of specific incidents are larger now than in past years. The speed with which the news travels and the coverage it receives are also much greater. People do look for the government to provide a solution. People are a bit more paranoid now because it isn't like the possibility of "moving to a better neighborhood" means that you can eventually let your guard down (though I never have my guard "up"). And the news reports just keep reminding us of our vulnerability.
Marketing off of the fears of others has always been a big thing. Security companies of all sorts thrive off of this. But until recently, most of those have been about providing piece of mind by protecting an individual (or property), not attacking possible (or as they would market, probable) sources of danger. You would be mistaken if you think that it isn't going to get worse. If marketing works, it only escalates.
I remember a talk that a teacher (Mr. Stimson) in high school gave us. It's been several years, so I doubt I am doing him justice. It was a physics class, so we were all a bunch of nerds. As such, the teacher probably felt it was his civic duty to give us the talk. He said that suicide was proabably the most stupid thing that an individual could do. The "You'll wish you treated me better when I'm gone," mentality doesn't work if people don't like to have you around anyway. He also warned against gunning down our classmates. "Fear and respect are two different things. If you want to use violence to gain respect, stick up for yourself by beating someone barefisted. Any idiot can pull a trigger, and there's no reason to respect any idiot." You know, I have to agree with him.
Now I must sit and ask myself how many rights and liberties people are willing to sacrifice to the government to have it protect us and do our thinking for us. What did Jello Biafra say? "America, love it or leave it. Beat the shit out of those who care enough to criticize it."
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
Isn't this a bit like putting a carrot in front of a horse?
I also found it odd that they're giving away a computer.
<Sarcastic>
I thought that...
"81% of Americans thought the Internet caused the Columbine shooting"
if they believe that then aren't they contributing to the problem? Wouldn't it be easy enough to put Doom/half-life/cstrike/UT etc. on the computer, thus contributing to the problem further?
</Sarcastic>
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
I agree with you on that one, however this system can be abused very easily. Giving kids the power to determine who's dangerous and who's not is power kids don't disserve.
If all you read is this authors inflamatory article and get all hot and bothered, then you are no different than those who blindly went trailing behind McCarthy in the 50's.
I am hot and bothered by this, what if the government instituted this idea? Would we be any better off than an Orwellian society?
I was born in 1981, so I didn't live through the McCarthy era and can't comment on anything there.
The only other comment I can add is this... nobody has the right to target a certain group of people because the way they are, that is the essence of a free country. At least I thought it was.
If I choose to relish in my geekyness, I should be able to do so without the fear of being reported by my fellow classmates. I am so glad I am out of high school.
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
Sound Familiar?
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
I see no reason to punish those who are different because someone else gunned down their classmates in their school. I was still in High School when this whole thing happened; I also wear a black trench coat. Almost immediately I was singled out as some sort of mass murdering freak who was there to kill everyone. Everyone started looking at me differently... but you know what I still wore my trench coat to school every day. I guess I considered it my own silent protest; I wanted to show people there was nothing to fear from me. I was already branded a hacker because I refused to use windows and promoted Linux. I know a little bit about network security, but I am learning. I am currently perusing a computer engineering/communications major.
The thing that frightens me the most is the cash reward. There were plenty of people at my high school that would have loved to have seen me hauled away. I never bothered anybody or made any waves, they just didn't like the way I dressed and acted. I didn't go along with the mainstream and was tormented because of it. Sure I was angry with some of those people, but not to the point I would wish them any harm. I think things will work out in the end. All of the jocks that ridiculed me in high school will be pumping gas into my Jaguar in 5 years.
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
However I think that even seeing the ending wouldnt have changed their minds, because thats what they think of people who dont exactly fit their imagination. And they dont see that even starting such a thing violates human rights (which also apply to children, although the US hadnt signed the international treaty for this yet)and that such a thing is uncontrollable, and is due to take off in directions hopefully even unwanted to them.
Heres the movie
I wanted to know where exactly they got their money from.
While I respect their core idea, non-violence, but they're going about it all wrong, its mostly privatly funded, they wont tell you what companies, yet at the same time they preach resolution through being open with one another, hmmmm. Whats happening to the info they get from this? Who are these companies and what are they going to do with this info?
They see themseves as a last line of defense before more drastic action, thats cool, but we've seen these ideas, these programs before.
I don't know what the answer to these problems are, turning people in isn't the answer, helping them is.
*sigh* I don't know about this country anymore. Maybe it's time to find another one, so I can at least die of old age.
Everybody denies I am a genius--but nobody ever called me one!
See Johnny Football cut class? Turn his ass in! suggest he was out playing video games
See Suzy cheerleader in the parking lot having a smoke? Turn her ass in! suggest that it was drugs!
Learn how to automate the process. How many popular jerks can you turn in in one day? One week? Remember kids: Don't get mad, don't get even, fuck them as hard as you dare.
Wish I had this when I was in school.
Get this cheese to sick bay!
People DO still need guns to protect themselves. As far as I know, weapons makers haven't developed any new type of weapon that maybe...kills with a sound. When guns have been banned in other countries, home invasion crime HAS risen. It's a simple fact. Now, it isn't likely that the U.S. will be invaded, taken over, and ruled with an iron fist. But if it does happen, you better be damn sure I'm gonna do what I can to stop it. Oh, the army will protect us? Not on this budget. What if there is a coup? The military isn't gonna protect us...it's gonna keep us in line. Far fetched as it seems, I still want to ability to do something to protect my freedom. That ability is given to me by firearms. People make the mistake of believing our freedom is set in stone. If we let our guards down, impose silly laws, set up programs that can be described best as FRIGHTENING, our liberty is threatened. Wake up people, just becuase we are the U.S. does not mean we are safe! Wars still take place, communists still exist, as do facists and nazis and other would be tyrants. No matter how many laws you people pass, when it comes down to it, it's doing more harm than good.
Nice to see that they have teamed up with Pinkerton, who are known for their strong-arm methods in corporate spying, stopping strikes, labor unions and now "the enemy within". However after growing up in North Carolina I'm not that surprised. "What you thinkin' about, boy!"
Or, get a bunch of people together, go through the yearbook, and turn everybody in. Their list will be meaningless. Eventually they might be able to "profile" phony reports, but in any case their phone system will get clogged. Especially if each protesters makes 10 calls a day after school until they give up.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
You're a witch!
-Elendale (I rest my case)No I'm not!
See! There! You denied it! You're a witch!
IANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
Dang. This means that everyone who uses a Mac should be reported to W.A.V.E. because they might "Think Different"...
Oh well, might as well turn myself in... ;-)
-jjh-jjh o|
from their website... >The incredible WAVE Card is going to make your >life very fun. Here's what we have planned -- >coming soon. We are going to get your favorite >restaurants, clothing stores, computer places >and other fantastic retailers to give you >discounts and f r e e stuff. Yes, I'm sure it >is hard to contain the absolute excitement you >are feeling right now upon learning about the >benefits of the WAVE Card. The above speaks for itself. Another point to think about is how quickly students opposed to the WAVE would be reported.
"Those who would sacrifice freedom for a little temporary safety deserve neither freedom nor safety" -Ben Franklin
yes, but that will most likely change sometime soon. There are several movements/bills/whatever to eliminate the electoral college. For the very fact that majority doesn't rule in that system. And because states get neglected during campaigns (Ie: Maine compared to California)and the actual majority opinions differ than the outcome sometimes.
After your call, the WAVE Line prepares a written report and sends it to the responsible person at your school for review. If you choose to remain anonymous, great care is taken to ensure that neither your name nor any identifying details are included in this report. Your school handles reports received from the WAVE Line in the same manner that they handle reports received through other direct communication channels.
SO yes, the do take an action.
And just yesterday, the supreme court ruled that anonymous tips cannot lead to frisks...this will prolly be precedent for future anti-anon tip crap.
This site tells (briefly) about the true story behind it.
My take on this is that one of the reasons they get picked on is that they can't retaliate (either because of the weakness thats being picked on for or because they are outnumbered).
This is an easily exploitable means of retaliation by anyone with reasonable intelligence. The bullies won't bother because they need their victims, and they have many other tried and tested methods tactics that they can use to continue tormenting them.
On one hand, we have a lonely single kid with a dislike of authority, a hatred of his classmates, and disdain of social conventions.
On the other hand we have a popular friendly kid, with a lot of friends, and a typical attitude to authority (i.e. "I'm not going to tell on my classmates" - common in 99% of well balanced kids)
Which of these is more likely to turn in the other?
It would have to have been in the early 80's.
Quite right. It was in 1981. Here is the imdb link to it. Apparently it's based on a true story.
"Strength through community! Strength through action!"
Hmm. You fail to note that teens had *far* easier access to firearms during the first half of the twentieth century than they do now; and yet, school shooting and juvenile crime was nowhere near as great a problem.
Why? Perhaps it was due to the fact that most teens likely to have access to firearms received some modicum of training in their responsible use early in life...perhaps it was because teens during the 1950's were not immersed in a culture of death...perhaps the family structure of the time was more stable...perhaps it was a combination of the above, or none of the above.
In any case, the fact is that in America of yesterday, and in some European countries of today, the youth in the populace had ready access to firearms, and yet did not make use of them to slaughter eachother with any regularity. Guns are not the problem, nor is banning guns (an impractical, if not impossible, proposition) the solution.
--Everybody wants a rock to tie a piece of string around.--
If they really want to stamp out antisocial behavior by kids in public schools they should exclude children who have no parent at home when they get out of school, bastards, and kids whose parents divorced. That would probably take care of almost all of the problems. This would have two consequences, 1. impose reasonable standards on adults, and 2. keep kids who are going to be messed up in the head away from the normal kids.
.. Blub falls right in the middle of the abstractness continuum. -- Paul Graham
Is _wtf_ is this program trying todo:
Turn in you weapon carrying classmates?
Make a phone call if your classmate is acting sketchy?
There isn't any talk of hunting down the geeks or anything like that. Making a call on a buddy isn't made easier or anything. This "program" is just what exists in any school today, but now it's a stated and promoted program.
It's not just for classmates, but for parents and teachers. Should these people not get involved?
You know I feel bad for some of the geeks (whatever) that got persecuted after Columbine, but there wasn't a fair context given. Those people are emotional, young, and Jon was looking to hype the whole thing.
Parents have lost track of their kids, and need to start getting involved again. If someone calls them up and says their kid is depressed cause the kid is d/l too much porn off the net, then wtf is wrong with that?
Or is it, the kids are smarter then the parents, parents just don't understand. whatever.. Does Jon have a kid? Would you tell you kid to tell you about classmates that are depressed? kids with weapons? What would you do if you knew about you kids classmates?
And the last piece of bs is when Jon said this is unconstitutional (at least if applied towards adults)? HOW DUMB TO YOU WANT TO BE TODAY JON? There is no law allowing anonymous tips, just what you do with this info. They didn't say what they would do with the information. JON STOP FSCKING HYPING YOUR STORIES WITH EXAGERATIONS, ITS PATHETIC.
In fact, I cannot due this posting justice, because it is just to hard to put these feelings into words, but I think a lot of you know what I mean.
One of the main problems that we see in geek/non-conformist culture is harrassment by the established culture, especially other students. If the W.A.V.E system is put into place, let's not forget that it works both ways -- geeks being abused or harrassed by their classmates could report *that* dangerous behavior to the WAVE system, too. That might allow a bit more equity as to who gets identified by this. Please don't take this to mean that I actually advocate this system -- I abhor it. But if non-conforming students are saddled with it, they can make it work for them as well as against them. --Scott
Type something, will you? We're paying for this stuff!
While I realize my opinion of this organization is not commonly shared by readers here, especially after a hefty dose of rhetoric the unsually overzealous Jon Katz, I feel that it's worth mentioning. What is described on the company's web site (as opposed to Katz's decidedly biased information) sounds like a reasonable idea. From the sound of it, the phone calls are not the primary focus of the organization, but are rather reserved for emergency situations. In addition, the staff manning the phone lines is (at least in theory) trained to handle the kinds of calls they will receive and will be able to evaluate the level of potential danger represented. It is important to note that of the warning signs mentioned on the web site, only two (severe social withdrawl/depression, consistant violent themes in art or writing) seem to be at all out of place, and these are only judged potentially dangerous when accompanied by more conventional signs (e.g., illegal possession of firearms, detailed violent threats). In my own opinion, having read the full description of the program as provided on the company site, neither myself nor any of my geekish friends would fit the profile that the company is looking for.
However, this is not to say that bad things can arise from the program. Certainly, most children will not understand the program's criteria as well as the adults who wrote them, and there is likely to be abuse of the system. This will most likely not prove to be a problem, however, unless the "highly-trained experts" the company has manning the lines turns out to be a bunch of first year undergrad psych majors from third-rate universities working for minimum wage, as they very well might. I thus think the idea should be considered only on its merits as an idea until it has had time to be tested in reality. Should shades of Hitler begin materializing in North Carolina, then the kind of response the program has garnered here so far will be appropriate.
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!
What exactly do they do when a child is reported as being "different"?
I am also interested in how the organisation makes it's money?
Do they get a fee for each child that gets dobbed into them? Or maybe they could just charge the parents a fee for a conformity program to stiffle this individualism, hell we could even pass a law that they have to go on the program and the parents have to pay.
I just have visions of a classroom full of desks of identical looking kids, all to afraid to express an opinion in case they get reported. Wait a second maybe I'm thinking of 1984....
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
Well it was a bit beyond me, I have to say, but the buzzword was Neoplatonism. The specialism was to do with the relationship between mind, spirit and soul. Major figures were Plotinus, Porphyry, and some guy known as Simplicius who my dad reckoned was a ringer.
Just keep all your feelings bottled up inside so that no one ever has a chance to see within works quite well
Works great for a while. This was something he was VERY good at. Nowt like a British Public School education to teach this. Trouble is, this was part of the problem, not part of the solution. Stiff upper lip led to an unwillingness (or fear) to express his feelings to pretty much anyone. So for thirty years everyone thought he was fine. Now this is fine for the employment aspect but it's no way to live. He wouldn't even show what was going on to himself. Wouldn't admit he was ill. Thought depression was some wishy washy pathetic excuse for inadequate people to wriggle out of duty. Very big on duty, my dad. therefore thought using the medication was a pathetic surrender and deriliction of duty.
there is a little law called the ADA Sadly, the UK Disability Discrimination Act is rather more recent.
Depression in and of itself cannot kill you
It's not the depression per se, it's the interaction of depression, self-image, upbringing, society's attitudes. I heartily agree with the point about other cultures.TomV
What's funny is the supreme court just ruled that law enforcement (and I assume that's who would get involved if a report was made about someone being violent) can't search or arrest anyone, minors included, based on an anonymous tip. At least that is my understanding of the ruling.
(This was sent to publicrelations@waveamerica.com - I would have chosen something a little less sweetened, but it probably would've gotten forwarded to PR or ignored anyway.) I encourage you to do similarly, if only so we can get a clearer response and a better understanding of this program.
-Snowdrake
----------------
I'm sure I'm not the first one to ask this question, but I feel it must be asked anyway.
I admit I haven't read a great deal about your program (mostly the coverage your program received on slashdot.org and a bit of browsing on your website), but what I have seen raises some serious concerns. In the light of some of the paranoia that has surrounded certain types of students in the wake of the Columbine High School tragedy here in Colorado last year, I fear that this program, while well-intended, may have the potential to make life more difficult for healthy but "different" students who happen to fit the classification put forward by the media (among others) of young people who are potentially dangerous. These leads me to bring forward the following questions:
Thank you again for your time. I would be very interested in hearing your responses to these concerns.
(sig)
that the politicians, while espousing the values of a public education, send their kids to private schools where they actually get and education!
Let's face it. We find things like WAVE terrifying and spiteful. Obviously, they find us terrifying. So let's report on ourselves.
Let's look at some of these "Early Warning Signs."
Hits or bullies others -- no, not really...although sometimes I do on USENET or internet BBSes.
Expresses uncontrolled anger -- I express it, but usually only in the privacy of my own home when no one's around. (Still, it's not the sort of thing you leave to chance, is it?)
Has unlawful possession and use of firearms -- nope, I haven't chosen to exercise my 2nd amendment right yet.
Displays intense intolerance or prejudice -- guilty! towards censor-mongers.
Has unlawful possession and use of firearms -- haven't we been here before?
Has excessive feelings of isolation or rejection -- here I am, trapped in my office at work, all alone...just me and my internet connection, left to my own devices...
Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings -- and I'll kill the first person who tells me I can't.
Uses drugs or alcohol on campus -- yeah, but I'm of the drinking age, so doesn't that count?
Makes threats -- frequently.
Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school -- yeah, I totally lost interest in school once I got my Master's degree and a job.
Is easily angered by minor things -- you mean, like people trying to take away my ability to get porn on the web? Absolutely!
"I have a cause: Smut. I'm for it." --Tom Lehrer
I can't wait until the kids discover that calling in an anonymous tip is an ideal way to get back at someone for pissing you off.
Here is what concerns me. Almost everytime there is some kind of really desturbing crime (mass murder, random shooting etc.) The person repsonsible is usually describbed as nice, quiet, kept to himself-- Didn't talk alot.
Also, it is usually describbed as un detectible with more than one person claiming they "never would have suspected."
So with that said, how is the average person (student, teacher, anybody) gogin to be able to oint their finger and say "yea, he's the one. that's the guy thats about to shot up the school."
I think this whole thing is about as clear of an example of FUD as I have ever seen. My biggest concern with this entire affair is the exploitability factor. I mean, what controls are in place to make sure that kids aren't just turning in kids they dont like. I am also deeply concerned about privacy issues. I mean you go for a job one day and you would be boss finds out that someone reported you to this thing once back in highscool. oh humm
"I mean, All you can definately say about a fellow who thinks he's a poached egg, is; He's in the minority." James Burke
Does not surprise me, take a look back at some more liberties that Americans used to have. I am sure in time they will even organize a little gestapo to follow up on their calls. Perhaps some day Americans will look back and read the Constitution and remember why exactly this country was founded. Maybe even start to see and say, "Hey, I remember when you used to be able to do that." As for the little WAVE project, give my regards to Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and all the other overbearing tyrants who desired to take away individuality and freedom from humans.
-1 Overrated (Too many big words for me to comprehend)
"Pardon me while I slip into my 'I Ratted out a Bully' T-shirt before you start punching."
You know those things are going to have a logo at minimum. When the sociopaths get hassled the kids with the shirts might as well wear targets.
carlos
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
AMERIKA
"The Internet is made of cats."
Forget about phoning the school with bomb threats.
Forget about stinky bombs.
There's a new game in town:
Snitch on the school buly
Basically, after the Pinkerton guys get some 10 or 20 anonymous calls about a guy ( the school buly ) having antisocial behaviour, they will see a patern emerge - the guy will be called, and will have to answer some really nice questions about his family, his gamming habits, ...
This might turn out to be an anti-bully tool instead of an anti-geek tool!!!
n America's recent history, how many times have people used guns to defend their "freedom". None, that's how many....(additional meaningless bullshit deleted)
This is clearly a troll, but let me respond nonetheless.
So my life isn't worth the protection a gun offers? You would prefer to disarm me with a law, which just gives would-be criminals a banner that they can steal, rape and kill with impunity? Face the facts - When Florida relaxed their CCW (concealed weapon permit) law, violent crime dropped 70% in one year. Look it up.
Crime drops in an armed society, and none of your bullshit made-up statistics will eliminate that simple fact. It's cliche, but PEOPLE kill other people, not the tools those people use.
Go away, little troll, ya bother me.
if I had the choice to lower the number of break-ins in the Netherlands by 50% while increasing the number of people killed in shootings by 50% the choice would be easy: I would prefer people living to a couple less break-ins.
He was referring to all violent crime in general. It drops when the society is armed. This is a fact, regarless of the FUD spread about gun-control nuts.
I truly feel sorry for you European types - your leaders get to be protected with guns, but they decided your lives aren't worth it. And you people actually approve.
I have yet to find an example of a database in the US where this isnt true as well.
Wanna bet? It's called the credit reporting bureau's databases. Sure, you can request (or purchase) PART OF your credit report, but they have a great deal more information on you than you might expect. And you have NO RIGHT at ALL to change the information in there.
In fact, according to the Fair Credit Reporting Act (not a very accurate name), the Credit reporting companies don't really have to remove inaccurate information. Sure, you can send them a protest letter, but the incorrect information still stays on your report and you're still denied credit based on it.
And I won't even START on the MIB (Medical Information Bureau, not Men in Black) - lets just say if you were ever really sick, this group knows about it, and that information is freely available (regardless of their claims) to almost any organization that asks. People with bad health are bad credit risks, after all...
It's a mile long, and if you're American, you don't have a bit of control over it.
As has been pointed out, the name W.A.V.E. is particularly unfortunate, after the book/TVM of the same name.
I just went to the W.A.V.E. site and "voiced my concerns" ... not about any students but about W.A.V.E. itself.
I suggest anyone with concerns do the same.
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
This whole thread is annoying. For several reasons:
- Jon Katz is using this sort of thing every bit as much as these corporations and politicians are using this thing to boost their own egos and bank accounts. A bunch of people once told Jon that he "gets it" when it comes to geek issues, and now he jumps at every chance to be the champion of "our cause." It's really starting to get annoying now, especially when he really doesn't get it.
- There have been a number of people saying "Hey, if we want to get rid of violence, do X." I hate to tell you this kids, but as it is stated in the article to which you are responding and elsewhere, crime - violent or otherwise - is at its lowest level in the US for a long time. Things are even better now than they were in that fabled golden age that you think you remember. (whenever that was.) You clearly can't "fix" this problem by doing X. If you fix it any more than it's already fixed, you're going to break something. Like laws.
- It is your right to own firearms. There are more reasons than you think for this right. There are plenty of people who hunt game for food in the US, and telling them they can't own a gun is a lot like telling them they shouldn't be allowed to eat so much over the winter. Then there's the obvious reason: self protection. Ban guns and only the criminals will have guns. Don't think it will make guns unavailable to them either. Even more important is the following scenario: Imagine if some Ultra-violent lunatic decides to make the nation a little more racially pure with a shotgun and a McDonalds, killing all 40 patrons (children included), the staff, and himself in the span of about 20 minutes.
The loudmouths would stand up and start shouting for all firearms to be banned. They will get a _lot_ of public support right at that moment, and a large number of politicians would be delighted to soak up that support, saying that "Something Must Be Done About the Violent Culture We Live In Today," (tm) proposing a large number of changes to laws, including the repealing of the fourth amendment, and the banning of all violent content on Television, even the news. The minority of people saying "Hey, that's not right!" will be drowned out by the majority _demanding_ these changes. 95% of voters will vote, a record high for the past 100 years. People will get what they want, and the majority of them will be happy with it. They will feel a lot safer now; they won't see news items about murder and destruction, they won't see violence in the streets, and they will be secure in the knowledge that since all the guns are gone, people aren't being killed by them.
The whole world will be wonderful, with this perspective. Of course, a minority would protest these changes, and do it very loudly. Those that aren't so enthusiastic, would eventually stop protesting. The politicians declare that they aren't going to listen to the outrageous demands of "special interest groups," especially those protests that are getting increasingly smaller and louder because only the most fervent are going to stick around very long. The general populace is going to see these protests populated by nuts and lunatics - just like that guy a couple years back - and they don't want to have anything to do with _that_.
Seeing what's happening, the organizers of these protests start to organize something quite a lot bigger with all the people who used to support them, but haven't had the time or energy lately to picket. One way or another, this peaceful protest slowly gains momentum and people get angry, throwing rocks and bottles at the police who start to confront the unruly crowd. A number of the protesters are injured when the police respond with teargas and billy clubs. This is just the first day. All these people that planned on being here all week aren't going anywhere soon. They're also quite surprised to see that their protest isn't on the news. The next night, the same scenario gets played out with the teargas and whatnot, but it only serves to piss off the crowd even more. A riot breaks out, and the police no longer have control of the situation. TV stations start debating whether they'll be allowed to air this or not, what with the strict controls on violent content.
The people in the city where this is all going on are getting scared though, and are starting to panic, many boarding up their businesses and leaving town. In an effort to get control of the situation, the government tells the newsies that they shouldn't air the protest at all, or the whole country is going to panic. Well, that's a good enough reason, right? The government never said anything about the army moving in to control the riots that have been ongoing though. Martial law has been declared in the city and it's been kept quiet so as not to alarm the populace. Reporters that have specifically been told by their bosses _not_ to cover this are being turned away by the military, and most do, because they feel as if they're doing something wrong.
But a tape gets smuggled out, and the BBC is more than happy to broadcast it. Similar protests and riots crop up in major cities around the US as a result; a large minority of people are angry at the abuse the government is dishing out to its citizens, and because of the media coverup. This country was supposed to have free speech protected by law! After a week of protests and riots, California, New York, and Massachusetts all declare martial law across the state, and rumours about the army killing hundreds of people in New York City spread throughout the east coast. The same politicians who wanted to "Do Something About America's Violent Culture" are shunning the violent protests, and demanding that more be done. Houses are searched illegally for banned weapons (meaning all of them, now.) across the country in an effort to stop the uprising.
One sane voice in the government speaks out against all the human rights abuses that the federal government has implemented: the governor of Texas. He manages to win support of the state's senators, and withdraw from the senate in protest. Colorado, the Dakotas and Nevada soon join in. On the East Coast however, five politically active college students storm a television station in Rochester(they had to... it was guarded by national guardsmen.) using weapons they had obtained on the black market, (Bad! Bad kids!) and with the help of the crew and newsies that were sympathetic, barricade themselves inside and proceeded to broadcast the news of the injustice being done for a full hour, calling for a general revolt. They, along with the rest of the people on that floor, are killed when the army eventually breaches the building.
However, with the gun ban of the past three years, the revolt is quickly put down since existing firearms are so scarce, and it was impossible to import them with the rather tight border controls that had been implemented just recently. Oh, and by the way, before the riots started, murders were up by 2% over the past five years.
Sure, this account is fictional. But to tell the truth, how plausible is this scenario? You might say to yourself "oh, that's not going to happen, we have a good government." Well, that may be true, but the politics that started everything in the first place echoes the rhetoric that is being spewed forth _right now_. Yes, there are politicians who want to restrict or remove not only your right to bear arms, but your right to free speech, and your right to free association, and your right not to be searched without due cause. Even more scary is the fact that all these attributes often don't each exist in _separate_ politicians, but in the same individuals. Scarier still is the fact that people are voting for them. And to think that it can get even scarier, think about how your "checks and balances" won't do you a damn bit of good when the majority of your politicians are on the same side. That is exactly what happened to Germany in 1933, and their government was based very closely on your own.
For the love of god, don't vote for the fucking nazis who would take away _any_ of your rights to make you feel a little more secure! They _are_ up to no good, and they _will_ fuck someone over!
---
I can't wait for proper speech-recognition.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
The only place I've ever worked that had drug testing was an airline - the FAA requires that pilots, mechanics, and anyone else with direct impact on the aircraft themselves be tested. By way of making sure they didn't drop anybody out of that last "anyone else" category, they randomly tested everyone.
Of course, the one time my number came up, I forgot several times (we were in the process of moving the whole company) and when I finally made it to the testing center a couple of months late, my boss paged me and told HR they'd just have to do without my test. (I put my foot down and stayed... "I've waited two hours, darnit, I'm going through with this! If you don't like the policy, CHANGE IT, don't just keep making exceptions.")
And when I hired a PC tech who tested positive for marijuana, HR gave me the option of them firing him or not. (Having cleverly deduced that he had interviewed just for the purpose of getting a free drug test to see if he was clean yet before he applied for a *real* job, I let them fire him, though.) I learned it wouldn't have been the first exception, so even then they didn't take it too seriously.
My present employer requires a financial/criminal background check and that's it... but it's a bank, so I guess that's to be expected.p.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
I think that allot of us have varying degrees of influence from little to allot, my question to my fellow slashdotters is what can I do to stop this type of thing from happening?
second society
It's ironic how the violent incidents that everyone's talking about seem to be an exclusively middle class, suburban phenomenon. People moved to the suburbs partly for security, but I feel a lot safer living in NYC than I would in these weird planned communities that blanket the country.
Of course, the easiest way to prevent another Columbine would be to simply outlaw firearms, but hey, that would be too easy.
This is pretty damn sick. I don't like this at all, for the simple reason that my classmates think I'm the most likely person to blow up my school. Very few people at my school know a lot about me, and they assume that because I'm a loner and I'm smart, I'm a depressed, anti-Social psycho who is building a stash of bombs to strategically place around my school. Simply because I have the know-how, I'm labeled. Someone turning me in to this would be likely--which would just be one bigass hassle. I say let the teachers deal with it.
____________________________________________
___
I'm an exhibit on the mounted animal nature trail.
In so far as the recent episodes of school violence represent anomalies, this monitoring program is uncalled for. However, violence in US schools has been a problem. This has been especially true in the so called innter city where gangs have been the main culprits behind the violence. In my own school for instance, the existence of an anonymous hotline could stopped two nasty incidents I can think of. Lots of us knew these kids had guns and knives and those of us on the peripheries of the gangs knew something was up, but it wasn't clear who to tell, and it was less clear if we could remain anonymous. And with the gangs, this anonymity is a matter of life and death. So, yeah, having a hotline would be a good thing, but who would run it? As this is a law enforcement issue, it should be run through police and sheriff's depts with effective liason to the schools. Having a private company administer and run this type of system is a bad idea for several reasons. First, public agencies are accountable to the community--at least in theory--whereas private companies are not. They are accountable only to their owners; owners whose interests may or may not conflict with the community interests. Second, private programs like this can be set up and marketed with no public input. And, that brings up the question or just what the true aim of the program is. Lastly, there's the question of oversight: Who checks up on WAVE to make sure they aren't defaming individuals? As a private program, no one does.
The last point, I want to make to the /. community is don't take Katz' word for this. He is essentially writing an opionon piece here, even if it does bring some necessary information. Like any bit of journalism these days, you cannot take it at face value. Before condemning this program out of hand, check it out. Find out more and make your own judgements. My own comments are merely first impressions based on the article. I need to find out more to really judge. Still, if Katz is right, this program is evil on the level of Mcarthyism. Thats the closest precedent we have to this thing.
Didn't you know than anyone under about 35 or so doens't have any rights in this country?
I know that this is an oversimplified answer, and that it would never happen, and that this kind of an assinine thing to say (at least some will perceive it that way), but I think the answer to the whole problem is very simple.
How about the next time (and there will be a next time) the violence occurrs, instead of trying to point the blame at the media, society, or at some other geek students, we just execute the person, who did the shooting, on national TV. I do seem to recall a certain North Carolina Sheriff making quit a bit of headway in the adopt-a-pet department by euthanizing the little mutts on TV. Perhaps this can be a deterrent if done correctly. Of course, this will never happen, and the popular kids will keep on trying to ruin the geeks (although I prefer the term Nerd). Meanwhile, I'll keep in being the Nerd I always was and I'll keep on earning 10 times what the popular kids are earning as bank tellers, teachers, etc.
*** Stop trying to be cool. ***
The neo-liberalist response to the school shootings has already been seen: demand more gun laws.
What you are seeing is the neo-conservative response: take away as many rights (that aren't Second Ammendment) as possible.
Keep your politics streight. Remember, neither party has your best interest in mind.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Ahem.
A democracy (ok, constitutional democratic republic) like the US could never force members of certain ethnic groups into concentration camps
Excuse me?
Are you forgetting all the perfectly innocent Japanese Americans that were forced into concentration camps during World War II?
And more importantly, if I turn myself in, do I get some sort of reward?
If I am marked for being highly depressed about my grades (which I am) and highly likely to snap and take out a post office full of innocent bystanders (which I am not), do they actually help me, or do they just watch?
Judge Pag, the Learned, Impartial, and Very Relaxed
Considering that most of these kids *actually* get accused of Satanism at some point it is literally a witch hunt.
It is scary to contemplate but fear of Satanism is perhaps the PRIMARY reason for considering a child "dangerous."
Something else to think about, a week after Columbine I saw news footage of Hillary Clinton boarding a plane for NY wearing....yep, a black trench coat. A minion of the Devil? You decide.
Way to go Katz! Issues like this tend to hit WND faster than most other sites, including /. and certainly long before CNN gets around to it.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Is it just me, or does this seem awfully reminiscent of the "spies" in Orwell's 1984? The children in that novel were brainwashed by the government into joining a youth club, "The Spies", closely monitering their parents for any possible anti-state leanings. One of the main character's friends was turned in by his own daughter for talking in his sleep!
What makes WAVE even worse is that beyond achieving the aims of an opressive regime, it makes cash on the side. This is an obvious attempt by corporate america to further invade PUBLIC schools. By offering incentives to schools, such as cash, computers, TVs, etc. for-profit ventures like the Channel-One network and N2H2 (with their Bess censorware) are already brainwashing children with their corporate propaganda. "People who are different might kill you." "Anything remotely sexual is evil." "Buying Nike products will give your miserable life new meaning."
And what individuals are targeted by this project? Not those students who may have real psychological disorders that should be diagnosed and treated by proffesionals, but the already persecuted and severely misunderstood Geeks, Punks, Goths, and free thinkers in general.
The scary thing is that my school has already been victimized, not by violence, but by the two ventures I mentioned earlier, Channel One and Bess. Both of these were resisted by the students AND Faculty, but were still handed down by the district administration. If WAVE were to enter the Saginaw Public Schools, I could at least take comfort in the fact that my school is populated by free-thinking students who know the constitution well, the program wouldn't make much progress. Most young geeks don't have this luxery.
The constitution doesn't contain a word about at what age it takes effect. I doubt that any court would allow keeping children as slaves, since "the 13th ammendment doesn't apply to those under voting age". I hope that they would have the same respect for the first and fourth.
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
This only proofs what I have been suspecting
about USA.
In Soviet Union (USSR) there was monstrous
government police KGB, and everyone was eager
to turn in their neighbours for no matter how
small reason. The public image of USSR was
however (or tried to be) land of productivity
and enjoyment. (ringing any bells?) So there were
two truths, the governments and the actual.
People were all part of big illusion, and they
knew it, just played along to survive.
In USA, however, the people don't realize they
are living in socialist-fascist -society. The
illusion that government keeps up works fine,
the majority of people falsely thinks their
beloved country is glorious and righteous, while
the truth is sad. Echelon, NSA, all the bad boys
and the power of money over people in democracy,
sad sad sad. This is just one example of it.
But, nothing can be done, once a lamb always
a lamb. Unless, well you know it yourself, do
something. You, people.
This type of mediation between adolecent peers has been implemented and functioned with astounding results. In 1692, a system of peer review was used in Massachusets where young adults reviewed their fellow students and friends. The result was positive. 24 severly defunct students were removed from society, preventing countless others from being hurt. Although this event was dubbed the Salem "witch hunt", the south has the moral obligation to overlook this hasty misnomer, and reintroduce a productive, result-based system for the preservation of a functioning society.
We must start construction of gallows and burning stakes immediately to prepare for the forthcoming onslaught of morally-misaligned youthes.
Speeding never killed anyone. Stopping did.
Wow. I don't have any stats, but in my 8 years of engineering I've never had drug screening even mentioned. One friend of mine went on an interview about 6 months ago, and when they told him they required a drug screening test he laughed and walked out (no he doesn't do drugs, and I would have done the same). That was the first experience any of my personal friends have had with such nonsense.
W.A.V.E. should not be surprising to anybody. For years school age children have been deprived of their constitutional rights. It is the prevailing opinion through out the county that school goers have no rights or have fewer rights than adults. It was even stated in the article in the sentence, "Although school-age children are presumed to have few rights, it's obvious that this kind of anonymous and intrusive law enforcement would [be] blatantly unconstitutional for adults." If it were unconstitutional for adults, why wouldn't it be unconstitutional for a minor? The Supreme Court stated in the case of Tinker v. Des Moines School District (1969) that "In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are 'persons' under our Constitution." That's says students, all students no matter what age, are people under the Constitution. Therefore if something is "blatantly unconstitutional for adults" the same thing is blatantly unconstitutional for minors as well. Even though this is the ruling of the Supreme Court it is not something that has been fully integrated into the thinking of the schools faculty. Many school faculty violate students Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights by searching students property without just cause and punishing students without them getting a say in their defense. I don't understand why it is that well educated people see a flaw in not protecting students right to privacy, which there is no constitutional right for, and not see flaws in the way the schools are now run. Is this the idea of fewer rights for children that are showing up in our actions? Yes, I think it is. Why is it that children are the scapegoat of our society? Just because they don't vote, have no money and have no way to defend themselves it doesn't mean that they have any fewer rights than the people that can defend themselves.
-Grant
|grant.henninger.name|
Why is it that these idiots got it into their heads that by making these poor kids that already feel singled out will not be so violent if they are singled out even further? I am afraid to see the reprecussions of kids who suddenly are angry at their classmates for turning them in. I am ready to hide from the coming "wave" of violence.
Newspeak is designed to limit thinking and/or otherwise prevent it from being out of control. That's a little bit more than just changing the meaning of a word.
we needs 8 mo' comments fo' 1,000. 32 fo' 1k
FIRST I'M FIRST I'M FIRST I'M FIRST YAY.
I saw that movie too. Wonderful. I can't wait until this thing goes into effect. I could claim any loner was bad for society or some other lame excuse and then just treat them like my slave. Start off each of their days with a dunk in the can!. End each day with flushing their head in the toilet (swirley, for the ones hip to it). And I can get away with all of this as long as I support the W.A.V.E.
And for all of you out there that don't think this W.A.V.E. thing will be good for America, there are good parts for you too! That's right, even those opposed to this can have a buncha fun with it! Here's how it works: Find out the names, etc. of all the relatives and kids of the people who started this whole thing back up in North Carolina. I suppose you already know the rest but I'll say it anyway. Then report the families and friends of, ah, yes, those were their names: The honorable (but with soon to be notoriously violent kids :) ) governor Jim Hunt! Way to get your kids in deep shit, Gov'ner! And of course, we'll go after anyone affiliated with Pinkerton*. There are going to be a lot of violent kids reported and they're going to realize that it was their own kids the whole time... :).
And don't forget that cool wave salute. Well, I forget it...something like hit your fist against your chest and point your fist up in salute with your arm bent at a right angle, pointing up, bicep perpendicular to the ground. Something like that.
Strength through Discipline, Strength Through Community, Strength Through Action!
Strength through Discipline, Strength Through Community, Strength Through Action!
Strength through Discipline, Strength Through Community, Strength Through Action!
Baden Powell was really something wasn't he? Basing his organisation on one that would be invented ~40 years later. The first scout event would be the camp in 1907. "Scouting for Boys" was published in 1910. I don't suppose it's at all likely that the Hitler Youth was a corruption of the Scout movement instead of the other way round?
Yes, 60 Minutes II (March 14, segment title: Mind of the Assassin). I don't know how useful it will utimately be, but I can't be worse than all this other profiling B.S. and MOSAIC. At the very least they seemed to have some useful insights. I believe it is described at http://www.treas.gov/usss/ntac.htm
This sort of thing dosen't surprise me anymore. People substuting fear for reason... Instead of trying to help these poor kids, they decide to brand them as being "dangerous". I'm no child psychologist, but common sence tells me that labeling these kids and having their peer's turn them in for cash and prizes is NOT the way to handle this. All this will do is make them even more depressed, because now their classmates ARE out to get them. Lets say the kid is actually IS dangerous, this crap just might push them over the edge. Of course, they'll be able to tell who turned them in...all they have to look for is a kid with a brand new W.A.V.E. cap or shirt. In that case, the W.A.V.E. logo might as well be a bulleye.
I don't understand why for Jon, depressed/different/misunderstood == geek. Maybe some of those people are geeks, but is it by definition?
This program appears to be well intended: if you think someone is a threat to himself or others, you call a number and they have someone speak to him. Overall, not a terrible state of affairs. If the situation isn't a problem, they go about their business. If they are depressed, maybe they find a good shrink and lead happier lives.
You missed the biggest problem with it... They'll give kids cash, T-shirts, etc, for these calls. It could easily lead to (and im sure it will somewhere if it goes national) "bounty hunting"-like activities. It'll no longer be about helping friends, it'll be about finding someone you can get away with reporting, and get as much cash as possible.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
I think this is where you should stfu unless you wanna make a REAL fool out of yourself. See my other reply for more info.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Anyway, the choice of name for this organization gets real ironic if you've seen the movie... unless this is just another big screwed up "experiment" to show people what happens...
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Then there was a bad patch. Pinkertons' was a strikebusting organization for decades around the turn of the century-- cracked heads during the 1895 Pullman Strike, during the Homestead strikes, and basically all the coal, steel and railroad strikes that plagued corporations at that time. Dale Carnegie and Andrew Mellon loved these guys as "security."
Looks like the old ways are the best ways.
just fyi.
---
But guns are irrelivant to a struggle to overthrow our goverment. a couple of whackos with hunting rifles will do nothing against a well-trained, well-armed army. If anything, haveing guns would hurt your cause. Do you think the american people would have tolarated the waco massacre if the people where unarmed? probably not, but because they had guns, the goverment's murder of those people is deemed acceptable.
Yes, there will be kids that use this as a way to get "revenge" on the others who piss them off. Guess what? It's been happening for years. It's called being a "tattle-tale", and we've ALL done it, since kindergarten.
Look at it in another light. If you have the ability to stop a crime before it happens, and the police bust down a drug dealer's door before he's made the sale, are said dealer's rights violated? Go ahead. Say yes.
There's no harm in being watched. No reason to worry, unless you're actually doing something wrong, am I right? And if you are, then you get caught. It's the way the system works, it's the way it should work.
Rewards? That I disagree with. Keeping order should be its own reward.
"So, I'll put down my LART, and you'll put down your StUd1yK@pz, and we'll access UseNet like civilized people?" -The D
Oh my god! I remember that movie. My father has worked for Pinkerton Security in the past. He says "They couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground." They are the most disorganized security company. I've heard from certain authorities that in about 30 states that Pinkerton Security is very close to loosing their license for private security practice because of customer complaints. I don't trust Pinkerton any farther than I can throw them. They started out as the best private security money could buy, but they sold out to some large conglomerate and it went downhill from there.
Oh my god! I remember that movie. My father has worked for Pinkerton Security in the past. He says "They couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground." They are the most disorganized security company. I've heard from certain authorities that in about 30 states that Pinkerton Security is very close to loosing their license for private security practice because of customer complaints. I don't trust Pinkerton any farther than I can throw them. They started out as the best private security money could buy, but they sold out to some large conglomerate and it went downhill from there.
Heh, that makes me think this could actually be turned into a good thing. Torment the tormenters, I love it.
Aidrocsid Liah Lla! Sire Liah!
Erk... I better protect myself or I'll become a sheep. *tries to hide his website thus attracting more visitors on accident* Shhhh! Don't turn me in!
Aidrocsid Liah Lla! Sire Liah!
*scribbles down some names and the number on a napkin* Whee! Free t-shirts!
Aidrocsid Liah Lla! Sire Liah!
Really! Depressed people (like me) need anymore crap than we already get, or at least think we get for the paranoid ones (also like me). Even if you do take medicine it still sucks, just not as much. And now we're going to have people on our backs because we're depressed? Maybe I would like to rip some of the people at my school's throats out, but it doesn't mean I'm going to act on that impulse! I hate myself more than anyone else, and it doesn't help knowing how many other people share the same feeling about me. Telling the world will make life a lot harder than dealing with depression is, and that's nasty on it's own. What ever happened to rights to privacy, and don't they realize it'll just be an easy way to get at someone you hate? But hey, who cares if a few lives are screwed up, we have to keep everyone the same, right? We can't have weirdos running around and being bad influences on the normal, healthy, popular people. The only way we can be truely equal is if we're all the same down to the most minute detail. It'll make things a lot easier with politics too, we can just do away with the government and have an unlimited monarchy, then the people won't even have to think, we can do that for them too. Life will be so much easier when a single person can decide what the whole world wants. Oh wait, we forgot about sex, oh well, time to kill off either, whichever the monarch isn't. So what if the human race dies out? We still get to live the rest of our lives out, to hell with posterity. This is what will slowly happen if we let W.A.V.E. get it's way. Maybe not so extreme as to let the human race die out but it will go far.
Aidrocsid Liah Lla! Sire Liah!
Hmmm... I'm not sure if the first paragraph is sarcasm or not, but if it's not, what's wrong with masochists?
Aidrocsid Liah Lla! Sire Liah!
'The Wave" was a a movie based on a teacher's experiment to show students how the German people got wrapped up by the Nazi Party.He would get the students to join The Wave and go against anything that wasn't them.Then he would turn around and basically say this is how the Germans fell for the Nazis. I love how Pinkerton doesn't think a kid won't use this for bad.With any luck just about every kid will wind up in the database either overloading it or rendering it moot.
Great minds think alike,but,fools seldom differ.
Search engine for actual www.Pinkertons.com site. 1(800) 555 1212 for Pinkerton Detective Agency gives a number that is listed on the above site, so 99.999% sure that www.Pinkerton's isn't a hoax. Site map -> corporate directory -> North Carolina -> PSG-Pinkertons subsidiary, got above phone number. Dial it, and you get a starched shirt lady who is very concerned about "who are you?" I didn't try any subterfuge, I told her I was horrified at the program's existance and that I had gotten this number from corporate and I was just confirming that the program wasn't a hoax. She was rude and insistent to know who I was, but the program is real. Oh shit, folks, I wish I had found out something different.
Peace.
Typo: (800) 528-5745 [N/T]
Peace.
Viva Society!
Jeez.
Remember the days people didn't know or understand what computers were or would be capable of (kinda like now)? They wrote books like 1984 and worried that Big Brother was watching... so what do we do now that Big Brother might be your little sister... Glad this didn't happen to me.
One student fires a gun so that makes us all homicidal maniacs in their eyes. We play violent computer games ergo we must be violent.
So if some is wrongly accussed which lets face is gonna happen if you allow anyonmous calling...what redress will they have ? Can someone be branded subversive without breaking any laws and forced into counselling ?
I can imagine it now... Are you a student or have you ever listened to a Morrisey record
Woah bedtide the student caught with a Leonard Cohen Cd, your obviously depressed off for counselling...
So they want everyone to act normal huh? Drink Pepsi, listen to Boyz2Men, etc.. Is there an outline for what normal is? Popularity or "what's cool" now a days is gay. Society is braking down. Putting small band aids on it will only make it rot that much more. "You rat me out and your dead" is what kids are going to be saying. Being a rat isn't cool past, present, or in the future. If anything, you're going to see more kids dying because of asumptions of these "rats". Who's fault is that kids can get weapons? Society. I hope everybody dies. Black, white, red I don't care. You all make me sick. This is just the beginning of the downfall of society and it looks good to me. Kill each other, more entertainment for me.
I'm the great, cynic, I'm the indifferent gaze
I'm the great, cynic, I'm the indifferent gaze
Mendacity, betrayal, this is not a phase.
What scares me, is that Jon Katz and most of this endless /.-discussion do not realise it! And that is just the same as what happend in the movie, just the other way round.
This means, that we are so eager to fight against the censorship (and, yes, of course, we shall), that we are not capable to see the difference between truth and bullshit.
BTW: Please note that JonKatz compares it with "from Nazism to fascism to Communism". He does not mention the anti-communist-witch-hunt in the US in the 50s.
BTW2: Blame Canada.
>In a newsmagazine survey taken earlier this
>year, 81 percent of Americans said they believed
>the Net was responsible for the Columbine
>massacre
You have to be careful about what tell surveys.
Depending on how the question was asked, you will get very different answers around the same idea.
If you ask "Do you thing that the american punishing attack against attack was necessary ?" or "Do you think it was necessary to stop terrorism by attacking Kadafi", it is likely that you will get very different answers.
Most people know that the Net is not responsible for all the problems. You have to be vey critical about surveys especially when done just after a tragic event.
I'm glad I finished high school years ago before the world went completely nuts, but what do I do about my kids??
two words - home schooling.
i fear public schools anymore, and privates are too $$$.
However,
Interesting, that the firm which produces the mosaic software offers neither a demo nor a clear method for obtaining a test of Mosaic.
Why is this?
Is it possible that the software isn't all that it's cracked up to be, that "Mosaic Artificial Intuition Systems" are a load of hogwash being sold to the rich and paranoid?
Is it possible that Gavin De Becker, Inc (the producers of these fine witch-hunt programs) don't want the people who would appear on the black lists to know how they are being profiled. Ahh -- remember the days of McCarthy's blacklists.
Or is it, perhaps, that the software is kept under key to prevent (heaven forbid) someone from finding what it is exactly that Mr. De Becker has decided will define the homicidal maniac, and then simply avoid matching those criteria.
To think think that what amounts to a behavioral database can predict violence is assinine. To use children spies to provide information for that database is vile.
If anyone _can_ get a demo copy of any of the Mosaics, let me know...I'd love to see if I have the potential to be a psychotic killer.
vvulfe
"I signed my name in blood...didn't read the fine print"
Just as a side note, Pinkerton Security (the company running W.A.V.E.) began as a company which gunned down striking workers. And these are the people watching for our kids saftey.
It seems they are pushing for a situation of "perfect peace", or total lack of confrontation. When will they understand that peace is an impossible goal. Why don't they understand that confrontation is pretty much natural to people (at least in all of the cultures that I have seen)... The goal must not be to prevent violence, conflict, or war, as that is impossible! Rather the goal must be to minimize the damaging effects, and to quickly repair all damage afterward. In addition, how can these parents say that their children are such mindless automatons that using the internet or playing a videogame can somehow transform a "nice little kid" into a "violent killer". There must necessarily be a background.
Yup - that's the main problem with trigger locks etc - you can only use your gun.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%E5%8D%8D&bt
First, I get depressed. When all my friends are busy, or unreachable because they're out with other friends, and I'm bored, at home all alone, it's depressing. I get manic sometimes- though I attribute it to my insane caffeine intake- about if this girl likes me or not, if I'll succeed in the long run, or just make it through the next week. So, I'm one of the types of people being looked for to be profiled, right?
Second, I'm dangerous, for various reasons. A half-dozen years of martial arts, some firearms training, minor pyromanism (candles and incense count, right?), and a little more chemistry than is covered in the Anarchist's Cookbook all make me dangerous to other humans. Further, I like to dress in all black, I keep my hair long and like it colored, I'm atheist and a-political with Socialist friends, leftist and right-handed, I listen to nearly everything between Anthrax and R.A.T.M. to Mozart and Wagner (not Winger), and I read /. So I have to be dangerous to the system.
Last and not least, I am potentially violent. Though I control it well, I get highly 'temperamental' towards people: those jerks who walk into me on the street not looking where they're going, the cab drivers who nearly run me over while biking, lusers asking me stupid questions over and over again, my 'classmates' who try to get me to pull their weight because I know my stuff and they didn't even take the prerequisite courses, and let's not forget dealing with society's myriad bureaucracies.
So that's me, and now that I'm a registered mutant, I'd like to collect my snitch's reward money before corrective positive action is taken against me. :)
cryptomancer must be a hacker's nommiker.
Yes, we understand these tags always apply: fud, dupe, typo, slashdotted, topic name
W.A.V.E needn't be Nazism. It depends on how it's implemented. I suppose at bottom it basically depends upon whether the people doing the implementation are closet Nazis or not. bullsh**! a system that teaches children to fear anyone who is different will create nazi-type behavior. germans weren't closet nazi's. they became nazi's because they were taught(indoctrinated) into nazi principles. this system teaches 2 lessons to our children. 1. fear the different. 2. you have no rights in this society. (we promise you'll get them as an adult. whoops)
i see this as simply another step in the oppression of our individual rights. locally our high school like many others has fenced itself off, has random drug dog searches, dress codes that stifle any expression, and yet has at least as many incidents as it has ever had. the school boards on the local and state level don't seem to realize that creating a hostile environment for these children is only going to spawn more columbines. i shudder to think how accepting of govt intrusion this next generation will be after living with it on a daily basis. the only solution that comes to my mind is to privatize the schools. get uncle sam out of our children's lives. "Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"
So what are they going to charge these kids with? Last time i heard being depressed isnt a crime... This stuff all sounds a bit too much like STASI-practices (Former east-german secret police)...
Yeah folks, you gotta give my/our homestate credit, any State that can elect an openly racist Senator i.e. "Senator No" Sen. Jesse Helms (a Republican)- AND - Old Puckerlips Hizzhonor Himself Gov. Jim Hunt (a Democrat) who presents a liberal's cloak to the public but has a Nazi heart has got to be one schizophrenic gestalt State...Jesus, and to think I helped get Helms elected back in 1972...at least I didn't work for any of Hunt's campaigns, thankfully...and at least Helms, for all his blatant Alzheimer's-inspired racism, homophobia and xenophobia doesn't hide any of his true colors, unlike Gov. Hunt who has always made this pretense of being a fiscal conservative-social liberal but by his actions in four terms in office that his spine is not unlike a sailing yacht's spinnaker sail, billowing and puffing out whichever way the political wind blows at the moment...
When my nearly-80-YO politically astute father told me a few years back that Waco was the culmination of a successful effort by the Government to silence all dissent which threatened the status quo by openly murdering those who speak their own truth I just poo-poohed his thoughts with a laugh, but when stuff like this shit with the new Nazi WAVE happens, I'm beginning to believe him.
When eminations that amount to fart noises coming from the cheeks of an ass of chicken via Old Puckerlip's totally scary pronouncements that not only is everyone who is not one of the perfect and "beautiful people" in high school in North Carolina fair game not just for ostracisim and pariah status but evidently also now a target for potentially illegal erzats law enforcement "shadowing" of otherwise lawful behavior, it makes me think that the old Soviet Empire didn't collapse after all, it simply changed it's name and moved to the Governor's Mansion in the Great State Of North Carolina.
~~~H. Kent Craig, Who At 15 Was The Gopher For Frank Rouse Who Was Then NC State GOP Chairman In The Summer Of 1972 But Also Tried To Help Elect A Superliberal Democratic Friend Who Ran For US Senate In 1978
A couple of curiousities came to mind while on my good ole "thinking" seat, first, should such a system be implemented, would the individuals contained within the system have the right to view, with no modification, their profile that exists within that sure to be massive profile? While I am no longer of that age group, I would surely be interested in what flags they have available. Also, since it is the child narc who is defining these flags, and bringing it to W.A.V.E. maintainers attention, here's a little example of undermining the system:
Lets say some fictional character was viewing a friend's spring break pictures where he or she were at the beach. No big deal, people in swimsuits, and so on. Now another character, who just happens to be a member of YMAP[1] sees women in swimsuits as pornographic material and jumps on the W.A.V.E. and has his profile flagged for pornography. No one would know the offense, as I doubt they keep exact records, rather a generic list of "symptoms." This character, who just wanted to see a friend's spring break, is now branded for life (or however far the db will keep the information available), as a pervert.
This system has a good idea, but its implementation is all wrong. Instead of taking the responsibility to narc on others, we should be policing ourselves with a little thing called common sense. Education instead of Censorship, Education instead of a complex system full of faults.
People argue that violence on television is a bad thing, or that portrayal of sex is a bad thing, so the soccer moms (stereotype) around the U.S. would rather have laws and just say something is illegal, instead of taking the time, sitting down, and actually explaining their child's options.
[1]: Young Men Against Pornography, note the "Porn Kills" banner at the bottom of the page that links to a woman in a swimsuit. And yes, I thought it was a joke too.
The use of that phrase just reminded me of something from years back. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but I do recall reading a book somewhere in my middle-school years long ago. It was entitled, coincidentally, "The Wave", and described a teacher's project to explain the psychological conditioning used in Nazi Germany by using a real life recreation, which eventually got out of hand to a violent extreme. Could this just be a strange coincidence that they chose that acronym? Hrmph, gotta find myself a copy of that book again.
Little Billy is keeping a gun in his locker.
Little Janey sees the gun.
Is it wrong for her to report him?
Of course not.
Do we need the help of a 350 billion in revenue company and a social-formatting scheme to help her do this?
God I hope not.
And did you see this incredibly frightening site? WAVE
There are many organizations in existence that have should no business existing. But, since the people who get MADD are too afraid to do anything directly yo solve the problems in *thier* lives, they decide that as good americans, they should go about making laws and starting organizations to completely restructure societies attitudes to fit their fears so they can sleep better at night.
I'm sorry, but an entire population should not be suffering for the foolishness and cowardice of the pathetically shipped burbanites and boomers that feel they have the right to pull the entire world around by their leash of morality.
Whatever happened to "If there's a problem, fix it". No, it's more like, "if there's a problem, call the senator, create a law, raise the age limit and hire stinkertons to solve all my fears"
America was not founded on picking up after idiots. So why has that become the ruling notion?
=================== Getafix the Druid
This is kinda long, but bear with me. If you read some stuff on the WAVE webpage, they give that list of warning signs. They quote "Extensive Research", and link (poorly) to a gov't paper on safty in schools, and the like. Here it is. http://cecp.air.org/guide/guidetext.htm Here's what it says.
from http://cecp.air.org/guide/textonly.htm (section 3)
Principles for Identifying the Early Warning Signs of School Violence
Educators and families can increase their ability to recognize early
warning signs by establishing close, caring, and supportive
relationships with children and youth--getting to know them well
enough to be aware of their needs, feelings, attitudes, and behavior
patterns. Educators and parents together can review school records for
patterns of behavior or sudden changes in behavior.
Unfortunately, there is a real danger that early warning signs will be
misinterpreted. Educators and parents--and in some cases,
students--can ensure that the early warning signs are not
misinterpreted by using several significant principles to better
understand them. These principles include:
* Do no harm. There are certain risks associated with using early
warning signs to identify children who are troubled. First and
foremost, the intent should be to get help for a child early. The
early warning signs should not to be used as rationale to exclude,
isolate, or punish a child. Nor should they be used as a checklist
for formally identifying, mislabeling, or stereotyping children.
Formal disability identification under federal law requires
individualized evaluation by qualified professionals. In addition,
all referrals to outside agencies based on the early warning signs
must be kept confidential and must be done with parental consent
(except referrals for suspected child abuse or neglect).
* Understand violence and aggression within a context. Violence is
contextual. Violent and aggressive behavior as an expression of
emotion may have many antecedent factors-factors that exist within
the school, the home, and the larger social environment. In fact,
for those children who are at risk for aggression and violence,
certain environments or situations can set it off. Some children
may act out if stress becomes too great, if they lack positive
coping skills, and if they have learned to react with aggression.
* Avoid stereotypes. Stereotypes can interfere with--and even
harm--the school community's ability to identify and help
children. It is important to be aware of false cues--including
race, socio-economic status, cognitive or academic ability, or
physical appearance. In fact, such stereotypes can unfairly harm
children, especially when the school community acts upon them.
* View warning signs within a developmental context. Children and
youth at different levels of development have varying social and
emotional capabilities. They may express their needs differently
in elementary, middle, and high school. The point is to know what
is developmentally typical behavior, so that behaviors are not
misinterpreted.
* Understand that children typically exhibit multiple warning signs.
It is common for children who are troubled to exhibit multiple
signs. Research confirms that most children who are troubled and
at risk for aggression exhibit more than one warning sign,
repeatedly, and with increasing intensity over time. Thus, it is
important not to overreact to single signs, words, or actions.
end quote
To which the WAVE site has something along the lines of "Don't use this to stereotype please!"
Also, each of the warning signs has a paragraph for each sign, which is not reproduced, and too long for me to do here. Look for yourself though. Listed with this information (and USED with it too), the list might not be the worst thing in the world. But everywhere else I've seen this sort of list there has been no such qualifying infomation. Why? It takes space, and people are lazy. Some thought would go a long way.
Again, my apologies on the length
Groke
As a kid my hobbies ranged from video games to paint ball war games to randomly blowing up useless junk that I found in the yard. I have found that most of the friends that I shared these experiences with have turned out to be the most normal adults that I know or have been able to locate on this planet. In fact, some of them turned out to be the finest our law enforcement community has to offer. So is this new "W.A.V.E." going to prevent them from becoming the humble adults that choose to serve others rather than themselves? All because they were different as kids and took pleasure in experimenting and discovering what kind of damage a black cat or M80 can do to some piece of junk in the back yard. IMHO this is but one step closer to a totalitarian society of which our government would be proud. Take the freedom to act as an individual away form the individual. Yeah, that's the ticket, they don't know what they want anyway. It's best if the government tells us how to act and what to think and say. May I be excused, I need to go pee -- oh, nevermind, by the time I get permission it will be too late anyway and I'll probably be branded as a troublemaker for having disrupted this discussion thread.
- WAVE will maintain a large database
- WAVE is a profit organization
- Many organizations sell their databases to other companies
When you consider all of this, it isn't too much of a stretch to consider the possibility of WAVE's Orwellian database being sold to other companies, (who then sell THEIR databases), until WAVE's dubiously aquired data is in so many places that it is basically impossible to get rid of. You could end up with permenate changes to your record as a result of WAVE's database. Which is largly contributed to by high school students?!?Now don't get me wrong here, I have nothing against high school students. (having been one at one point) But I also remember high school experiences. And the majority of my class in HS I wouldn't trust with anything more dangerous than string. And I most definatly would not trust them with a means of adding potentially damaging reports to each other's permenate records!!! High school is still quite full of petty, vindictive individuals. (so is the rest of our society, but we've fortunatly set most of it up to work around them) Even without the added inducements of cash bonuses for turning each other in, I still have no trouble imagining students turning each other in, just because they bugged each other, or had annoyed each other, or whatever. High school is full of small rivalries. And as has constantly been pointed out, the most likely target of this new weapon we are cheerfully putting into the hands of high school students will be the social outcasts, the "geeks", and other "deviants" and "noncomformists".
Now, don't get me wrong here, the program could catch potential killers, too. One thing that tends to be forgotten in these discussions is that not all outcasts are bright students who are merely ostracized because of their intelligence. There are also outcasts who are outcasts because they ARE really messed up psychologically, or are on drugs, or whatever. And these individuals do need help. However, I think it is safe to say that the plan outlined by WAVE has the potential to cause a lot more permenate harm than it can justify by catching a few messed up students.
I think that I have to agree with Jon Katz on this one. This is downright scary , and yet another reason that I am incredibly glad that I am no longer in high school, and so am not directly affected by this. However, that doesn't mean that I can ignore it in good concience. Profiling in general tends to lead to problems. And when you turn it over to high school students, encourage them with financial rewards, and already aim it at the segment of the school population that is most likely to be damaged by further stigmatization, I think it is very likely that you will cause considerably more harm than good, no matter what the intentions behind it were. I think that this is yet another example of compensation for inaction by sudden spurts of overreaction. Must be human nature, I guess. That does not, however, make it any less damaging, or much of a consolation for the students who have to endure it.
I'm sure the ACLU lawyers are sitting in the wings just drooling over this one. Some poor kid is considered different and are turned in for a couple of bucks. You know however that it'll have to be someone acting different because of race, creed or sexual orientation before the lawyers jump in. Just being an individual isn't enough.
We've already got laws on the books for punishing people's words and deeds, are we now going after thoughts and personnal affairs?
The following statement is true. The preceding statement is false.
Availability errors or not, his point is still right. You can't just point your finger at the first thing you don't like or the first thing that's different from the "good old crime free days". Christ, for all the years music influence has been debated you're still clinging to the "music causes violence" argument. That's pathetic. I suppose you bought it back in the eigties when we went through this same thing over D&D.
And, having lived in Appalachia for thirty years, I can tell you that the poor white folk sure as hell do shoot their neighbors. More often their wives or husbands. They don't listen to rap music. Last time I checked, Garth Brooks wasn't being blamed for inciting violence, but I know plenty of impressionable thirteen year old poor white Appalachians who are shooting their neighbors and classmates.
---------------------------------------------
Yes! Oh yes! My soul is snoring! - Tom Servo
---------------------------------------------
Yes! Oh yes! My soul is snoring! - Tom Servo
I want a
You can always tell the city people in these discussions. The simple fact of the matter is that without guns, you would starve to death.
The most common actual use of guns, after target shooting, is hunting. You may not like the idea of we glorious humans out whacking Bambi and Thumper for recreation and consumption, but if we did not do this, you own behind would quickly be in very serious trouble.
The most hunted mammal in the US is the rabbit. There are two reasons for this: (1) They're tasty, and (2) they are a crop predator that, left unmolested in an agricultural environment, can multiply their numbers 8x - 32x each and every year. The damage large numbers of bunnies can do to a farm can be devastating, and the result of large-scale crop predation as would occur without effective control (as is now practiced with firearms) would be astronomical food prices and within a few years, food shortages.
The deer is also a major crop predator. An unhunted herd of deer can multiply 2x or more per year under favorable conditions. Favorable conditions like not being shot while feeding on a farm.
Depending upon the region, other tasty crop predators would become problems if not controlled by hunting.
Most farmers accept that a few percent of their crop will be lost to predation, allow hunting on their land as a very effective and natural control, and believe that as beings connected to the Earth, some loss is acceptable as matter of good-neighborliness. Unlike city people, they know their place in the ecosystem and accept it.
I won't even address the fact that the vast majority of guns in the US are never used in the commission of a crime, or that armed citizens intervening in a crime in progress are less likely to be shot and less likely to shoot innocent bystanders than are the police.
Guns are simply tools. Like many powerful tools, they can be abused. Automobiles are responsible for more deaths every year than guns are in a decade (excluding military actions, of course). Sometimes automobiles are used as weapons, and this is certainly more prevalent today than at any point in American history. If you want to save lives, carry a gun while you leave the car parked in the garage!
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
What a perfectly asinine statement. What you are not even bothering to consider is that most folks who will pick up a firearm in self defense are keenly aware of the fact that the human being in the sites is going to die. As a result, they have every reason in the world to be certain of their target's identity before firing.
When I was 17 years old, I came creeping into the house at about 2AM, with a friend, trying to be quiet out of consideration as much as to avoid a confrontation with parents who expected me to be home four hours earlier. What my friend and I both saw, and will never forget, is my father's eyes over the sites of a .38 that was pointed right at my chest as I stepped through the door.
The point: that was 21 years ago, and I am still here. The ole man did not shoot, did not even have the hammer back (at that range, double-action is fine). He identified his target, lowered his weapon, and all was well. I was not in any danger -- my father was raised with guns, I was raised with guns, and my own kids are raised with guns. We know better than to poke holes in things that we have not clearly identified as needing to be dead.
When a home invasion was attempted in my own home several years ago, I stood in my foyer with a semi-auto pistol in my hand -- the man attempting to gain entry could see me through the glass in the door, and for some reason was not deterred when I showed him my firearm. Funny thing: when my wife handed me the cordless phone so I could call the sherriff, he ran off. I could have simply reached over and unlocked the door, and popped the guy when he came in. Here in Colorado, I would have gotten away with it without ever visiting a courtroom. The deputy who responded even suggested that if it happened again, that's what I should do. (The would-be invader was a neighbor -- if he made a habit of this kind of behavior, he probably would eventually seriously injure or kill someone.) What you and others like you are apparently choosing to ignore is that the vast majority of gun owners are not looking for an excuse to pull off a plausibly righteous shoot. Most are simply prepared, and preparation does not imply eagerness to commit the act.
Personally I hope that one day you will be shot by someone you know...
And therein lies the root of all violence, belief that what you want is more important than the lives of those who are no threat to you.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
We would be Nazis today after having been subjects of the Queen for a couple hundred years.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
The following is a direct quote from the partners area of the wave website:
"The exposure and marketing value for your organization on this site is enormous. As a WAVE Partner you will have prominent exposure within the WAVE America site which will link visitors to your own customized page. On your customized partner page you can profile your organization's products and services as well as announce any WAVE Member discounts or giveaways you are offering. You will also have a link to your own website as well as be mentioned on the WAVE Partner page.
By 2002, youth will account for over $1.3 billion of the e-commerce dollars spent. With your exposure to students, as well as, teachers and parents, your organization will gain access to large segment of the buying power in the communities where the WAVE America Program is available."
The implications of this terrify me. Raping the rights of the defenseless for profit, and apparently legally.
Edward O'Neill
"Arrogance and Stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you." - Londo Mollari, Babylon 5.
how about a site hack - someone could add the keywords to the meta tags that would keep waveamerica out of all the net nanny browsers and so forth. The beauty of that is that they(being anti-geek and all) would probably not notice since such a hack wouldn't change the visual appearance of their site.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
A) After 100% of the under 18 population of NC has been reported,
they realise it was a stupid idea and stop.
B)After 100% of the under 18 population of NC has been reported,
they go "holy shit, lookit how dangerous these kids are!" And push
the program to a national level.
R.
Whoops. Early mornin' foggies.
And you're right, I wasn't alive in the 1950s... But I do remember reading about him, and watching him on TV.. And he is very topical right now... who was he after? Communisits? That's what some people think. But listen to his words:
Land of the Free, indeed.
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
[q]Ahem, please don't draw conclusions about the United States based on the actions of some Bible-thumping Jesus freaks in North Carolina. There is a little bit of civilization in this country - you just have to know where to look. :)[/q]
random aside: but I'm not so sure that Bible-thumping Jesus freaks are the ones behind this...
The only reason I say this is cause I grew up in a family that would be considered serious bible-thumping Jesus freaks (I was even homeschooled for 4 years) BUT something like this would have got us and our family friends howling.
Personally I think its indicative of big government (yes its a private organization, but its backed by the state) that is trying to take the responsibility of rearing children from their parents and now they are indoctrinating and exploiting the youth for thier own gain. Right now it seems somewhat innocuous (well to some really stupid people in North Carolina) but just wait till the "Red White n' Blue Guards" of Chairman Gore/Bush bursts through your your front door...
This is scary...
[q](b). You have some kind of PROBLEM with depressed kids, or kids carrying weapons, being turned in? Sh*t, if I saw even ONE kid carrying a gun at my local school I'd be DAMN happy to ANONYMOUSLY turn them in. If I thought a student was going to kill themselves, I'd be happy to see them get the treatment they need. [/q]
uhh we HAVE law enforcement to deal with things like that...
I guess this is kinda redundant but there are plenty of checks for young people to "report" other young people so that they can be cared for...or has our schools gone so far down the tubes that a student can't even talk to a close teacher (or even administator) about someone that they feared was going to hurt himher self or others?
This anonymous faceless system that has really no checks on it is not only overkill its setting precedent for scarier stuff.
[q] Personally coming from Australia, which in fact has one of the world's highest youth suicide rates in the world, it is rather fortunate (in a twisted sense) way that our tough gun laws prevent the distressed from taking out their anger on the rest of society, but onto themselves. I know that I shall be flamed by the pro-gun NRA lobby, but taking away the right to a gun from teenagers is obviously the first step in controlling the situation and reducing violence and copycat incidents in the United States. [/q]
we have a toys for tot's program but not guns for teens. I AM a big supporter for our right to bear arms -- but NOONE (not even the NRA) says that minors should have [unsupervised] access to weaponry.
when teens have guns 2 things have gone wrong:
1)their parents didn't train them to learn to deal with life (and its resultant shit) in a non-violent fashion.
2)thier parents obviously didn't bother locking up thier guns (I know this #2 is a debatable issue but then I'd REALLY be off topic)
Otherwise a very well written post...
For all of you folks well north of the mason-dixon or outside of the US, I can understand the shock of a program like this, but it really doesn't surprise me. This is not an endorsement of the(for profit!!!)program, but you DO need to take a look at the culture and outlook of people in that part of the US.
I lived for three years in the great state of North Carolina after I graduated from school. And boy, did I suffer a great case of culture shock, born and bred "up north", I had no conception of what it was like to be Southern.
Quite frankly, it is a different world there. Talk about the influence of the church and "traditional values". Get out of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill or Charlotte and it is strikingly different in the Sandhills or the Piedmont or the Mountains.
North Carolinians possess strong notions of God, country and the community at large. Residents do take an active interest in their community and I think that WAVE is a an effort to improve the community at large especially when today's society is at odds with the traditional values that some hold so dear to them.
I don't believe that just because a kid is a geek that it will make him or her a target of the program. It looks like it is meant to be proactive in getting assistance for most troubled (read:the other stuff) kids. Let me tell you that once you get out of the populated areas, good paying jobs (like IT) are scarce and if a kid had computer skills, he or she would be very lucky indeed. To give you some context, I was in an area where the key to affording a nice middle class lifestyle was a GOVERNMENT JOB. But anyway...
Wether or not you believe that the program onerous is your opinion, I just wanted to answer the "why North Carolina" question.
This is another view of the world.
Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical (sp)?
I'd suggest educating them. To do to them what they try to do to us is, in several ways, wrong. Maybe if they understood that just because someone knows what an operating system (you'd be suprised) is, it doesn't mean they're going to run out and kill everyone not involved with a computer. Although, at times, I do feel like brutally slaughtering them. Wouldn't it be nice to watch them burn? Or hang? Probably, but I think it would be better to watch them fetch files and contribute something good to the internet. =)
...every grade-school aged child is an expert in human psychology and has a encyclopedic knowledge of weaponry. Otherwise, this could get really scary!
-L
So North Carolina is going to make schools safer by providing another opportunity for kids to make fun of 'nerds' and 'geeks' because they are already unhappy in high school and therefore will be more likely to commit a crime than a 'happy' jock or 'normal' person. And of course this is all due to the 'evil' internet.
In a newsmagazine survey taken earlier this year, 81 percent of Americans said they believed the Net was responsible for the Columbine massacre.
It's such a shame that people automatically fear something they don't understand. What contrast to the 'Internet that would unite everyone and create peace and non-discrimination' that we heard about a few years ago. Hey, if anyone would like to start writing letters to the Governor here is his address:
Governor James B. Hunt Jr.
Office of the Governor
20301 Mail Service Center
Raleigh, NC 27699-0301
I didn't see an email address after a quick glance at the state website, but I welcome someone to post it...
void theoremProver(){
print "this product is correct"
}
WAVE part on bottom... this is sort of a flame or vent now.... Ok, I do remember the school special... We had to watch it in school... I do wonder, is the world really ****ed up... I hate this place and I wish I could help... Right now I am in school... and considered a trouble maker and what not ... But we all know that high school is totally insane and the worst place for geeks to be... or anybody... the cliches, the jocks, the sterotypes, the teachers... It reminds me of the poem(i consider it a poem) by TheMentor... a hacker that wrote a few articles for Phrack? Ok yes I am a Hacker... I love computers and what not... but I am tired of these schools doing what they do... I LOVE learning but high school is unnecessary... I want to be one of the ones to help start the geek revolution... as some call it... I want to be one of those that change the world... Because we are digging a hole right now... wanting more and more money...(Bill Gates is worth how much? and he contributed a measly sum to a few places... so what nobody needs 90 billion dollars or whatever he is up to any how... ) I have so much anger.... I wish I knew some geeks or nerds or people that understood me IRL but that isn't so.... I hate school, I fight for my rights, I fight for what I think is right and people tell me I am wrong... but that is based on their beliefs usally based in Christianity(which I think is a good religion, but has some flaws like all religions do...) If I could start today to help the world... I would but I always try to explain myself to others but they are SO stupid... it annoys me... For one thing in one class this kid always makes a comment about that I am a communist... He knows about as much as about that as he does in sex... I love this planet... but Bill Joy is right, Ted Kazinsky(probably misspelled don't want to look up) had some problems but his main thought was true... Technology is killing us... The Romans never could kill a few million people with the flick of a switch... Greed, Hate, War, Money They still rule the world I think we need Understanding, Open-Mindedness, Peace, Love, and aspects of all religions... Don't hate someone because he is not like you... I like being me... Because that is me... not you... If we were all the same... then this world would be quite boring... anyhow imagine a world full of big dumb jocks(I hate sterotypes but jock here is literary implemention, of what most people think of... though some jocks are smart) I wish someone would help me through life... because i am tired and lonely and I want to escape from the hell I am in ... worse even is finding a girl/woman i can relate to... the anger and tears come from my heart of the passion of what is wrong with the world... I hope the revolution comes soon... and I hope it is silent.. the change of conciouness, a Utopian Society... but not Utopian but more accepted by all... I love this world I love all I am myself and I hope you will continue to do your life jobs... W.A.V.E This will not work... Why? because it is what will be considered crazy and what not... We don't need programs or what not... we need better education... better family life, better religion and government involement... But I do not like a lot of government somties that is bad... what we need is a new change... a non corrupt way of doing things.... We need a leader... We need followers and helpers and devoters to what will be the greatest cause on earth... Both sound like being a Hitler Youth or what not... What I think we need is more study and less of programs to make people happy... STUDY STUDY AND RESEARCH.... LOTS OF IT!!! I hope people understand where I am coming from and I am tired now and going to bad... I am tired after school... I wish I could write a book but I have no... ok this is over bye people I sleep commen on what you think this article is only 50000 letters long
If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
This sound absolutely wonderfully Eastern Europeian culture "pre-fall-of-communism". It sounds so totally anti-liberal that the US would be the last country in which such a scheme could be dreamt up. Or perhaps not. The moral panic now sweeping across the western world would be likely to produce such monstrous ideas eventually. And, as most of us europeans are convinced "moral panic" started over at your place. So, who next to be registered? Anti weapon lobby children by pro-weapon lobby children? Or the other way round? Great stuff, keep it going! Witness repressive society form! M.
Katz: I'd love to see links added to your story to some straight news reports on this. Because this WAVE is a for-profit enterprise, it is not a governmental agency. What that means is that the Fourth Amendment is not implicated. The Fourth Amendment only applies to searches and seizures by governmental agencies (i.e. the police, the FBI, etc.). So we should be scared. I assume that this will work as follows: 1) There is an anonymous tip that someone is drinking bat blood and threatening students; 2) This information is stored; 3) if the threat is credible (or maybe even if it isn't credible) the activity will be reported to the school (or maybe even to the police). At that point, all of the usual Fourth Amendment issues would crop up again, e.g., whether the tip is reliable or whether there is confirming information. So in step three our rights would be protected (to the extent that our rights are protected at all). The biggest worry for me is step 2, i.e., the retention of information. Will this program retain the data indefinitely, will there be the equivalent of "moral credit checks" before college admission, mortgage approval, or hiring at the post office? Adolph Guiliani is defending the shooting of another unarmed black man in NYC by pointing out the juvenile arrest record of the unarmed man, as if that were at all relevant to his being slaughtered. I worry that the retention of WAVE information will follow us around throughout our lives like a juvenile arrest record. If the WAVE program is abused against gamers and goths, etc., the system could be presumably be crashed or overloaded by reporting the peculiar frat boy rituals of the them. That's something that the WAVE folks should worry about. How the hell are they planning on making a profit? Ahhh the joys of the information age.
I picked up on the 'sarcastic' part, good job!
I'm not sure what your point is.
The 'right to bear arms' is to ensure the ability to raise a grass-roots military to overthrow the standing government/military.
Your post suggests that you feel any reforming of the Constitution is a bad idea. If you are consistant in this attitude, you also believe that any individual should be able to own a surface-to-air missile, or an atomic weapon.
If you think the Second Ammendment means only guns, then you are guilty of reforming the words and intention of the Constitution yourself.
So which is it?
The Constitution never mentions guns. What it does mention is "the right to bear arms". This means any and all arms, including grenades, tanks, missiles, nukes, etc.
Obviously this isn't a very good idea, and should be rethought.
People who claim to support gun ownership based on a hard line stance on the Second Amendment should recognize this.
Please forgive the following post for its meanderings... Personally, I don't believe this W.A.V.E. profiling is a bad thing at all. The ideals behind it are entirely misguided, but I think that public information should always take precedent over personal privacy. No, wait - hear me out. What if everything about you, every intimate moment, every thought, no matter how pure or profane, was laid bare for the whole world to see? Now what if EVERYONE ELSE was given the same treatment? How could a man stand up and accuse his brother of wrongdoing when his own sins were exposed to the world? We don't need privacy, people. We need honesty. We need an open and honest society, where everyone can't afford not to try to understand each other, where everyone works for the common good because not doing so is against their own self-interest, where everything you say and do is indesputably recorded. I have never seen true tolerance created by hiding the truth of who and what you are. The second benefit is accountability. A high-school who was tied up in a campus bathroom and anally raped with a broomhandle could go to his administrators and PROVE that it happened, and PROVE that he people he was accusing were the true culprits. When the school administration ignores him, he could then go to the local government - the state government if he had to - and PROVE that his very real greivances were being ignored - and noone would have the power to cover it up. Society would be forced to immediately address any injustices, as society begins to realize "THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ME." Privacy is really secrecy, and secrets only hurt the people they're being held over. For every homosexual terrified of being outed, for every closet BDSM fetishist afraid people will shun her for being weird, there would be a thousand people that would be forced to realize that many of the people they interact with - and respect - on a daily basis hold views, ideals and desires that they themselves consider reprehensible. It would force a complete re-thinking of what we consider "deviant". As to the profilers who want to turn this into another way to beat us down... fuck 'em. The only way to truly win against a 'moral majority' like this is to show them that there really are more of us than there are of them, and that half of them are really us in disguise. -Hentai [not afraid to wear the label... are you?]
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
Hrm. I just had a thought... anyone who would be interested in putting together an organization dedicated to helping out minors [and even adults] who are being marginalized out of social institutions based on their interests, lack of social skills, dress, behavior, etc., my email address is bdill@uswest.net - please send me an e-mail with "[nerd4nerd]" somewhere in the subject line; when I go home tonight I'll talk to the admin of our home linux network to set up a mailing list. Talk is cheap - let's see some action.
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
The only thing guns are used for is violent crime, where people are robbed, raped, mugged and killed by criminals who have easy access to the vast amount of guns in America.
Uh huh. They're also used by people who would have otherwise been robbed, raped, mugged, and killed by said criminals.
If we didn't allow the ownership of guns these wouldn't have happened, would they?
Whether or not something is allowed has no bearing on whether it happens. We don't allow children to shoot each other in school. Does it still happen?
Personally I think that there is a definite link between America's gun laws and the face that it has the highest murder rate in the Western world.
Perhaps. However, the laws also allow those of us who do follow the law to protect ourselves legally. You can outlaw them all day and criminals still have them.
Show me a law that both outlaws guns and takes them away from criminals, then I'll give up mine. Until then, I'll sleep soundly knowing that someone who breaks into my house isn't going to make it very far.
If this comes to your school and you don't like it then try this: report as many people as you can, make up fake people and report them, remember you have complete anonymity. Report several thousand people from your school, if lots of people do this their system can't possibly keep working.
I woke up this morning, I was feeling kind of high, it was me, Jesus Christ and Haile Salassie I.
First consider that the rights in question are duties of the Federal government and are quite different for a local school system. Local governments are restrained by the state constitution and those restraints may be quite different than the Bill of Rights. Secondly, a private firm may do all kinds of things that the state or federal government can't. So it may all be legal. These issues have a history in the Americans With Disabilities Act. Disturbed people do have liberties but those around them also have the right to function without fear of violence. There is a legal compulsion for all people to be somewhat civil and coherent as not being in that state of mind is an implied threat to all.
March 29 -- The bold cosmetologists of law enforcement. The New York Times took note this Sunday of efforts in Nevada and Connecticut to enlist beauty-parlor personnel in the task of identifying possible victims of domestic violence for referral to battered women's shelters and other social service agencies (see our March 16 commentary). Its report adds a remarkable new detail regarding the sorts of indicators that Nevada cosmetologists are being officially encouraged to watch for as signs of household violence (being licensed by the state, they have reason to listen with care to what's expected of them). "Torn-out hair or a bruised eye may signal abuse, but more subtle warning signs may come out in conversation. One Nevada hairdresser, [state official Veronica] Boyd-Frenkel said, told of a client who said: 'My husband doesn't want me to see my friend anymore. He says she is putting bad ideas in my head.'
"'Emotional abuse, intimidation, control, jealousy, overpossessiveness and constant monitoring,' she said, can be as sure signs of domestic violence as physical injuries." Does Ms. Boyd-Frenkel, who holds the title of "domestic violence ombudsman" for the attorney general of Nevada, really deem it "emotional abuse" and potential domestic violence when a husband seeks to warn a wife (or vice versa) away from a friend who's considered a bad influence? Is such spousal behavior really to trigger the notice of the official social-service apparatus, and its new deputies in the hair and nail salons of Nevada? (Jeff Stryker, "Those Who Stand and Coif Might Also Protect", New York Times, March 26).
Generally people cannot see if anything is wrong with themselves or their immediate surroundings.
Many US citizens believe that their country stands for something that is really doesn't.
-dennis
I'm no threat to society but i am a depressive so that makes me a threat. i'm a strict pacifist with a lot of patience and yet because i often get depressed i'm some sort of threat to society? i think not. I'm a teen so i have no more rights then a a five year old i see much wrong with this. as it is since i'm wiccan i lose half my freedom of religion (wiccans under 18 can't practice in covens). why is it that the most uninformed of society control things for the rest of us (especially teens). as a teen in high school i have basically lost the following.... freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression / individualism, basically everything the founding fathers fought to protect is now being given away by a bunch of whining politicians and uninformed morons who want to add their own 2 cents worth. sorry i'll finish my rant but this just pisses me off
-Borgdude
How do you enforce a law making it illegal to commit suicide?
I think that violence, depression, fear, anger etc. are created by "wanting something". We want so much. Money, power, knowledge, control, sex, the rush of gambling or computer games, to be the best in something, to be popular, to be different, attention, alcohol etc. There is nothing wrong with wanting something, but as soon as we are "addicted", we want more and more, and it's never enough, and when we cannot get more, we have to replace it by something else, or we get some mental disorder. This sounds rather primitive, but I don't mean to judge anyone with a mental disorder, because the roots of that stuff can be somewhere very deep, somewhere in blocked childhood memories, and since these things re-create themselves then can run in the family for generations. Lots of things we teach our children are based on "having" more and more and "better" of something, pushing them to do more, be more, be good, be better. So this whole "nazi-like" plan just creates more of this. What about teaching meditations, philosofie, music or sports (for fun, not to compete and be better)? Please lets make a start in "non-competitive" things. Just to have so something different from all the advertising, competition, greed, so we can learn to accept ourselves and other just the way we and thay are.
Additionally, what's the problem with gun registration? I'm not a gun owner, but I don't see any problem with requiring gun registration for all firearms, with background checks.
NRA and it's various suborganizations are also sceaming bloody murder about the fact that law enforcement/legislatures are starting to require the enforcement of laws at gun shows. What's the big deal?
Since most guns that are used in problematic ways (crimes, esp juvenile crimes) are either purchased illegally or (more commonly) lifted from parents' gun cabinets, either idea *might* make illegal/illicit access to guns more difficult. Stronger laws for registration/background checks combined with stronger enforcement make it more difficult to buy guns illegally. Stronger enforcement makes street purchases trickier, and registration ensures that when guns *are* used illegally, they'll be traced to whoever bought it in the first place. SmartGun technology makes it harder for Junior to borrow Dad's TEC-9 and blow his friend's brains out, assuming that Dad is smart enough to hang onto the ring/lock. None of this really infringes on gun ownership for legal purposes by responsible owners.
So what's the problem with it?
I agree completely. They're a technology in progress. The problem is that some groups (the NRA, some others) are fighting against research in the area. (denouncement of colt when it announced it'd be spinning off a division for that purpose) That's what puzzles me.
>Also, if it takes time to deactivate the lock (of find a ring, fumble with it, get it on), this is an actual danger to anybody trying to defend themselves against a crime in progress.
Point I hadn't thought of...but I've seen the ring prototypes, they're smaller than wedding rings. People wear their wedding rings to sleep: couldn't they wear the gun-ring?
>As for background checks, they should be instant computer checks.
I agree. Shouldn't be that hard to implement.
With regard to gun shows and enforcement: the thing is, that laws have been selectively modified so that certain rules (background checks, registration, etc) are being waived for gun fairs. And while requiring gun show sellers to follow the same law as everyone else might create a hardship for them, I'd rather make their lives a little more difficult than leave a gaping loophole open for anyone looking to buy a cheap, off-the-books gun w/o a background check.
But anyway, this is veering way the hell off topic, so I'm going to shut up now.
The Pinkerton Inc. Website
The Commission's Website
Their Final Report
The Center For the Prevention of Youth Violence, one of the brainchildren behind the idea
and of course
W.A.V.E.'s site.
Not true. There are more reasons why you have to register.. If I want to drive my car, I have to get a license first. (ok, you used that example, but I'm going to borrow it for a minute). The reason here isn't because it's not a right, but a privilege, or because They are watching me for when the revolution comes, but because the ability to drive a car can be abused, with massive detrimental effects for society. Drivers can mow people down like daisies. We regulate driving because irresponsible use can lead to loss of life. How is this less so with firearms?
I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection between gun registration and fascist regime. Other countries do it. Japan pretty much bans guns. England makes it damned hard to get a gun. MOST major industrialized nations, worldwide, put a limit on the ability of people to have a tool which exists for the purpose of killing people. (I'll concede that rifles and such have sporting uses, but I've never seen anyone hunt, who was competent at it, with a pistol.) Last time I checked, the entire non-US world hadn't fallen under a regime of fascist totalitarianism.
Pinkerton is within its rights to spearhead a private initiative of this sort, no matter how philisophically repulsive, I expect that they will look morally superior and civically concerned all the way to the bank. However,schools which are funded with public money (ie YOUR tax $s) should not be allowed to spend any of the aforesaid $s on this type of nonsense. So, make a fuss! E-mail your congressman, your state rep., your school board and anyone else you can think of and copy the ACLU (www.aclu.org) and all the news magazines (60 minutes, 20/20 etc.) So few people actually bother to write to their various reps. about things which disturb them and yet it takes very little time. This board (which has a fairly narrow readership) has received about 200 posts in an hour on the subject, if your congressman got 200 e-mails in a DAY on a given subject it would be construed as a "hot topic". Try it, it's fun and satisfying to make a fuss for a good reason.
Looking at violence spec's between any two select cultures is a good way of distorting statistics. Looking at similar statistics for many countries and cultures gives a different picture, albeit more work to compare. Regardless of available tools, violence rates do have cultural trends, but that doesn't vary by stones and clubs or firearms so much as other factors. Firearms are used mostly defensively when not for practice or recreation, and so are most important to peaceful, lawful people in cultures where other factors raise violence and predation (personal or property crime, often one as a consequence of the other) rates, and the ability to defend self and family are made more important. Another interesting aspect of Germany is what it tightly regulates, and what it leaves to the freedom of its people. Someone walking into an average supermarket or department store in the US can buy vitamins and herbs which if carried to Germany would make one an international drug smuggler. However, it's no big deal who prefers to be nude or dressed in silly costumes around local parks, or if a few couples are envigorated into a little fucking by the lake. Those are signs of a more tolerant and less predatory culture, which naturally would be associated with less violence in many forms than we suffer in the U.S. of Amerika. Would decriminalizing all malum prohibitums, like nudity, sex, drugs, and speech laws, cause the US culture to shift in more tolerant and less violent directions on a broader scale, such as seen in some foreign countries? Terry
Sometimes the most effective way to point out the defects in any bad law are to enforce to the letter as fully as possible. Kids whose parents belong to Baptist or Pentecostal churches need to be turned in. After all, we all know those churches are nesting grounds for dangerous civil rights predators. School officials, teachers, maintenance and kitchen staff, and their spouses must be turned in, if they exhibit any of those same traits. Be especially wary of such people who donate large portions of their incomes to such hate cults. Of course if would be a disgusting perversion of civil rights to turn in people purely because of their religious beliefs. However, given the dangers in the predatory nature of large minority factions of such supremacist church memberships in promoting this kind of oppression, perhaps the only way they'll learn is to get a taste of their own medicine? Terry
Just a sec. The header on the main page says 'this would be illegal if they did it to adults' or something like that. Who says it's not unconstitutional to do it to kids. NO WHERE in the constitution does it says that minors have different rights than adults(exceptions : voting and serving in the army). All that crock your teachers they you about not haveing rights until you are 18, is a lie they use to control you! I have read the entire constitution that they can take basic rights from minors. If that was true, girls under 18 would still be their father's property and blacks under 18 could stilll be unslaved, minors held without charges until they were 18 etc... So remember it. Protest what you don't agree with. Sue if you can afford it (or if your parents are lawyers....you can even act as your own lawyer if legally ruled competent). They can't do anything about it. Enough oppression of the last true minorities in the melting pot of America. Geeks and children.
Valar
====
Crudely Drawn Games
The problem with that tactic is that it might actually prove helpful.
if Pinkertons security presence in the malls of america is any indication of their competence, I wouldnt consider this a threat to our civil rights, more as an excersize in futility.
Seriously, if parents and teachers can't communicate and use discresion and wisdom to help the children who are truly in need of assistance what real positive effect is a database backed by a rent-a-cop going to do. If kids control the input, then how seriously can we trust the information? within the first hour of operation this database would be filled with more FUD and BS that a Microsoft press release. It would be nearly impossible to diseminate any legitimate information.
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exception of handg
Hey.. who says that all the jocks and preppies and yuppies get to have all the fun with this idea? Let's stop taking the role of the victims just 'cause we're used to it.. Wouldn't it be funny if all the geeks and nerds and people who get picked on in those schools in North Carolina were the first ones to pick up the phones, dial their little hot-line numbers, and rat out all the tormentors? I think it would pretty damn amusing.. especially if the preps and the jocks were doing the same thing.. Everyone rats everyone else out.. Eventually, they might even have to suspend the whole school. Can't you imagine the headlines? "Entire School Disctrict Goes in For Counselling!" But seriously.. Think on it. It could work to geeks' advantages.
Is there intelligent life on Earth? Yes.. but I'm only visiting. ~The Goddess of Miscellaneous~
I was a little confused by the language of the article....is this program being run by the N.C. state government, or by Pinkerton??? Either way, it is a facist, Orwellan, etc., program, but if Pinkerton Security Systems, a private corporation, is conducting the program without tax dollars, then it is quite constitutional, for both children and adults.
could be a good way to get better grades though,.. like "gimme an A or I'll turn you in, pervert.."
It is outdated because people don't need guns to protect themselves anymore,
How then should we protect ourselves from someone that intends to do us harm? Some would answer that the local law encorcement is there to protect us, but that is simply wrong. The job of the police department is to arrest the perpertrator of a crime once the crime has been committed. They are not there to protect us from wrongdoers; as an example, there was a story in the local media here where a mother traded her daughter for crack in a crackhouse. The police knew that the house she was in was a crackhouse, but they did not have sufficient proof to legally execute a warrant. As a result, the 2 year old girl was found dead in a closet in the house 2 weeks later.
The only thing guns are used for is violent crime, where people are robbed, raped, mugged and killed by criminals who have easy access to the vast amount of guns in America.
Really? I know several people who own guns (I work with many of them) and I would not classify them as people that would "rob, rape, mug, or kill" someone. That argument is fundamentally flawed; a gun is just a tool, much like a wrench, or even a knife...you can use a knife to spread butter with, or to cut someone's throat. It is the person that uses the tool that determines the outcome.
And then there is all the shootings recently by children who took the guns from their parent's houses, where they were kept fully loaded in easy to reach places.
While that is true, we need to place the blame where it is due, on the parents. It is the parent's responsibility to ensure that their children are properly educated on the use of firearms and their potentially devastating effects on others. If these children had been told that these guns are not toys, that there is real consequences for their actions (something that IMHO is missing from a lot of households today...) then these events probably would not have happened. Granted, if a child knows what will happen when they pull the trigger, and they choose to do it anyway, then the child is at fault. Just don't go accusing the child of everything...the parents play a big role in this as well.
If we didn't allow the ownership of guns these wouldn't have happened, would they?
Let's not kid ourselves. The very definition of a criminal is someone that does not obey the laws. If a criminal has a gun, it is most likely illegally obtained. Gun control laws will do nothing more than ensure that the law-abiding populace will have no means of defending themselves, and thereby make themselves a better target for those that have little regard for the laws in the first place.
Now that I've put in my $.02...
Vote Vader in 2000!
http://www.vaderfor2000.org
And with so many problems results in this new WAVE project with which parents and teachers think that they can protect their children from from violence. Let us for a moment disregard the infringements of WAVE on constitutional rights and its ultra conservative stance, but rather focus on whether it is capable of preventing violence. Closely analyzed, most will realize the problem is not solved. Worrying about potential offenders does not answer the question of why certain children may commit crimes. It is analagous to waste disposal: it is a temporary solution. Further, whether WAVE will work is also questionable. Children, as mentioned in the article, can in fact turn in misleading information. In addition, can children be responsible enough to use WAVE? WAVE does not only exploit children, but also the fears of parents and teachers and other members of society. Many of these people already believe that Internet and violent games are the sole causes of child violence. These individuals seem to be led to believe that WAVE will work; they are not told and do not realize the problems involved with WAVE.
Well, for me at least... I match this W.A.V.E. profile perfectly. geeky kid with no social skills, a loner that didn't cater to any click... It sends shivers down my spine. Next thing you know they will make us listen to Nsyc and Brittany spears, and whoever doesn't will be put up aganist the nearest wall and shot. It's crap like this that scares the piss outta me. More and more often in this county the established elite is willing to suspend some of the most basic civil rights for the sake of convenience! (I cannot spell, so flame away) hmmmmm. even the Dark Lord himself, Bill Gates fits this profile... what's the 800 number? :)
Depression in and of itself cannot kill you.
True, but by the same logic neither can AIDS.
(please, no hasty responses to this)
# Tom von S.
# -------------
# "Nuclear weapons can destroy all life on earth,
Also, if it takes time to deactivate the lock (of find a ring, fumble with it, get it on), this is an actual danger to anybody trying to defend themselves against a crime in progress.
By this rationale I'm assuming that you also feel that actually having to LOAD the gun before firing on a home-invading perp is yet another attack on your second amendment rights by those kooky liberals, right? Furthermore, I'm also guessing that you aren't too fond of locking up your gun when you aren't killing murderous thugs either, right? After all, keeping a loaded gun in an unlocked drawer without a safety only enhances the protection of yourself and everyone around you. It's people like you who truly make me sick.
iRooster, the Mac OS X a
As for the gun issues: For a semiautomatic pistol which has a magazine, I do not object to having to insert the mag before firing the gun. What exactly is your objection to the smartgun concept whereby there would not actually be any delay in being able to fire, as opposed to having to pop in a magazine as with a semi-auto.
There is something really wrong in a society where an 18 year old could go out and purchase three guns and give them to a pair of 17 year olds without checking or being aware of what these guns were to be used for (denver rocky mountain news 1/24/2000). I don't know if simply creating stricter gun laws will solve the problem, but it certainly can't hurt.
iRooster, the Mac OS X a
>It's one of our countries biggest problems really: instead of finding the root problem and working through it, we take a pill and hope it just goes away.
This is sort of an aside/adjunct to the earlier post "Depressed People". There's been a number of articles about stuff like "Prozac Nation" and whatnot, how anti-depressants are over-prescribed, etc. and along with that there is still this overall stigma about taking a pill to help correct a chemical imbalance that caused/is caused by (Despite great advances, this is still considered a real chicken/egg problem...) depression and related mental illnesses.
That is partly why, for example, I took so long to realize that I needed such help. Hey, I've got news for y'all: They work! But, in order to work properly, they must be combined with a doctor who cares, regular followup visits including blood tests (to determine concentration of active ingredients, etc.) and discussions about side effects and positive effects, and therapy also helps as well. I've made huge advances in the past few months, I feel better than I have in a long, long time. Check out the book "The Feeling Good Handbook" by Dr. Burns. The title smacks of those ubiquitous "self help" books, but it is a text that is based on the principles of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy or CBT and it gives you the most important thing for helping get through depression and life in general: a mental toolkit to dissect the thoughts that bother you and help you un-twist them and either figure out a way to counter them or at least give them a realistic basis. The basic premise of CBT is that your *thoughts* are the basis for your feelings. Being ignored by your peers doesn't make you feel lonely. Thinking "Man, everybody is ignoring me. I must be a total loser." makes you feel lonely. A semantic difference, maybe, but an important one.
Adolescence is a tumultous time for many, with powerful new emotions and abilities as yet untempered by the wisdom of experience. In some cases, psychiatric drugs may be useful, but they darn well better be prescribed by someone who *knows what they are doing and cares about their patients*! If you can't get along with your shrink because they don't seem to want to help you work with the thoughts and feelings you have, get a different one! People who are being "driven crazy by psychiatric drugs" are obviously not getting the continuing followup care they need to make sure the drugs are doing what they are supposed to and the side-effects are being minimized. For some, the pills alone are all that's needed, and 3-6 depression-free months later they can go off them. For others, the pills make enough of a difference in their mood for them to be able to participate actively in their own therapy, which goes on to make a significant positive change in their lives and again, after 3-6 depression-free months they can go off them again, at least until the next relapse.
Okay, well, I've rambled on quite a bit here. To try and tie back to the topic at hand, targeting differences is just going to exacerbate the problem. A lot of what this W.A.V.E. program seems to try to target are well within the "normal" range of responses to the situations a "typical" hormone-engorged adolescent presents. Especially when he or she has had a particularly bad day. I can't even begin to imagine how much worse this will make life for those in high school who are discovering that they are either bisexual or homosexual! The addition of yet another set of codes to try and stay within the boundaries of in order to avoid having the spotlight put on you will make things worse... Okay, now I'm starting to get really redundant. I'll stop.
What everyone should do is start turning in everyone who is creating the problems -- all the kids that are hassling the other kids, the bullies, the ones that harrass others, the ones that namecall and throw stuff and are constantly haranguing others, etc. Turn them in as exhibiting dangerous aggressive behavior -- in other words, turn the tide by turning in everyone who is likely to abuse the situation by just randomly turning in everyone who is "different" -- pretty soon the idiots trying to run the stupid pathetic thing will be so swamped and confused they won't know whasssup -- and all the fascist conformist types will be the ones targeted as "dangerous" and ready to snap -- as they deserve since they are the ones hassling all the *INTERESTING* people every day!!!
This scares me, but not for most of the reasons posted already. If you look at the "reasons to call" part of the page, it shows some pretty general violence warning signs, but also some very general ones - Danger to yourself or your school. This is open to a lot of leeway. Second - this is a for-profit organization, which usually means the information is owned by the company collecting it. They would then be able to do whatever they want with the information, including selling it to anyone with the money to buy it. And I do agree with most of the posters thus dar. Maybe we should show them what real violence is and lynch some representatives in a regular old necktie party.
Your language is disgusting. If you want people to listen to what you have to say do not clutter it up with a lot of trash.
Jon, I just looked at the site and failed to find anything that singled out what my idea of a geek is. Here is the list of what they recommended the kids to look out for: loss of temper on a daily basis, frequent physical fighting, significant vandalism or property damage, increase in use of drugs or alcohol, increase in risk-taking behavior, detailed plans to commit acts of violence, announcing threats or plans for hurting others, enjoying hurting animals, carrying a weapon, It is quite possible that I may have missed something but in reading through the comments it seems quite likely that most of kids responding are just looking for a way to oppose any form of organization.
Since when has 2000 turned into 1984? I know I didn't vote for Big Brother in 1996. Since when has being different become a crime? Everything that I was taught in school said that the U.S. is based on unity through diversity, not unity against diversity. This targets not only geeks, but the most repressed group in United States history: children. Children in the U.S. still have few legal rights. Most laws designed for child protection actually restrict the rights of children. Minors, those of us under 18, can't even vote on laws that affect them. But even if we could vote, it wouldn't help us against W.A.V.E. W.A.V.E is a PROGRAM, not a law. That means that not only can't we vote on it, but no one can. Then, concerned individuals can institute it "for our protection." Yeah, right. This is merely blame shifting. Instead of placing the blame on those who deserve it, like the irresponsible parents who raise these little darling murderers, W.A.V.E. allows blame to be shifted to politically and socially acceptable targets: geeks. At least 15 of the conditions listed on the W.A.V.E. site describe gamers, nerds, geeks, and other such "dangerous" types. Where is the category for the spoiled rich kid who beats up his friend for doing better in class? Anyway, that's it for my rant. If you feel like railroading the last few rights kids have left, go ahead and support W.A.V.E. -Disco King
by placing the blame on the internet, computer games and so on we don't have to look at ourselves and accept responsibility for our part int eh problem. By placing the responsibility on other children to notice "anti-social" behaviors parents don't have to take responsibility for their own children. So, both parents are working, busy, have their own problems, and don't have enough time to pay attention to their own children. Or they see that something is wrong but don't know what to do. Instead of teaching children to be on the lookout for other kids that don't fit in parents need to take responsibility for their own children, it is part of their job. But, because ALL parents can't be found in one place (unlike all the children, who are going to school whether they like it or not) it is more difficult to make sure that they are accepting responsibility for their own children. So W.A.V.E (btw, has anyone else read a book called "The Wave"? it's freaky...) has come up with a simple solution that won't be very difficult for them to use because they already have a willing audience, waiting in high school and elementary school classrooms across the nation. This upsets me, not because it isn't a good idea to avoid fights, and try to keep the peace, but because it is shifting the emphasis to the children. Children are not considered adults until they are 18, this means that their parents are supposed to feed them, care for them, vote for them, and have a general idea of what is going on in their lives. I am not an advocate of superduperstrict rules, and granted, I didn't talk to my parents much, but they at least talked with me, and would have noticed if I took a gun to school. So, in my opinion anywa, it is up to parents to accept responsibility for the children they brought into the world, or the ones they are fostering because the birth parents were unable to care for them, or the ones they have adopted for similar reasons. Parents cannot be forced to do this, it is up to each and every one of them to voluntarily accept responsibility. And that starts with individuals, not with security companies or snazzy webpages with badly rhymed mantras, but with me saying that I, when I have children, accept responsibility for teaching them right and wrong, and how to tell the difference in themself, for listening to them, even when they are not communicating with words, and hearing what they are saying and helping them when they would like my help. Alright, that is enough ranting....
Yveva
Let Them Fuck with me the wrong way, this is a violation of our constitutional rights, if they try, i will organize the largest coalition of hackers the world has ever witnessed, and their database will die, if not, i'll walk in and execute them one by one, they think were fools, they underestimate us, i have skills in explosives, and weaponry, and access to lots of guns, let them come, we're ready, and god help them all. they thought Columbine was bad, if they try and fuck up my freedm, they'll pee their pants jusat listening to it on cnn, i'll make columbine look like Mardi Gras, they wont fuck with me, cause i can fuck back, ohh, and anyone who wants to respond to this, dont bother, i prolly wont be back.
Remember those Woody Allen movies, or that episode of the Simpsons where it was illegal to be in a bad mood. Does anybody see shades of them in this?
It is possible, from my experience of Americans and pop culture, that the plan is to create a new slew of Americans that simply smile vacantly and do what they are told. I must admit, if this is the beginning of such an Orwellian situation, it's going to be fun for non-Americans to watch how this plays out and developes...unless WAVE spreads...
Concrete analysis...
{To: The Pinkerton Corporation}
Hello thought police,
I greatly disagree with your program to let Americas misunderstood youth be judged and unfairly harassed by the very people that don't understand them, their peers. I wonder what would happen if the tables were reversed and the so-called "normal" kids were given a once over with a fine-toothed comb. I wonder how many of them would turn out to have drug and alcohol abuse problems. Read the Time Magazine that came out after the columbine incident. It was the "normal" students at that school brought about the tragedy. The "popular" kids were so stuck up; they said that Eric and Dylan were jealous because "we are the social elite of the school". These are the people that your company seeks to glean useful information from; the tormentors are not a credible source of information. You may look at the story and see some unmolested loners who for some reason (video games and music [if you are like most near sighted people]) just snapped and decided to kill some people for a thrill. I see deep-seated hate and rage cultivated over time through merciless and constant harassment by the "normal" kids. We live in a society where we pride ourselves for our open mindedness, yet we cannot tolerate kids who are different from our view of normal in our schools. Their peers make fun of them; they snap and give way to one of the most powerful emotions, rage. And yet we blame the tormented and comfort the tormentors. We defile the graves of the tormented while showering gifts on the graves of those who provoked them to act. We blame the music and hobbies of the boys, not a society where people who are out of the main stream are allowed to endure daily psychological warfare from their peers. We are so shocked when they act out. We were also shocked when women and blacks fought for their rights.
Stop lowering the price of privacy. Look at your logo, open your eyes, and see through the blinders society has prepared for you.
PS. Your program reminds me of how the Hitler youth would turn in their parents to the Gestapo.
From,
A Fine Member Of Society.
Gee, a wonderful example to live by. Southpark. Its one thing to watch a show and enjoy it, but it is yet another thing to base your life and your actions on animated characters on Comedy Central. I guess to live a truly blessed life I'd better go out and start memorizing scripts like you.
Here Here! *applauds*
I'm one such depressed person. Basically that means for me that I hate myself and my life. What that doesn't mean is that I hate everyone else and their lives.
The thing I've found to be worst for the depression is for people who don't understand it to find out about it and simply be insensitive. It happened even last night, when a friend tried to convince me that my homework was more important than my depression.
Now this company is offering to brand me nationwide as a depressed person. This means that people I don't know, people who don't understand the disease, people who will try to force me into undesirable situations "for my own good," will know of my depression.
This is not a good thing.
Not to mention that we look overseas, and we see similar problems overseas to what we're fighting here, such as the UK's "Official Secrets Act" and the UK's draconian libel laws (where you are judged guilty of libel unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you have the facts on your side), or Australia's Internet censorship laws, or the telephone monopoly in Germany that is hindering Germans from getting online... 'nuff said.
And finally, there is the language barrier. Most Americans have never bothered learning another language. Why should they, when the United States is so big and powerful? This means that most Americans could only move to other English-speaking countries, most of which haven't had much of a high tech industry. Other high-tech powerhouses such as Germany are of little interest to Americans, because we (gasp) don't speak the language...
_E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Big difference. Many kids in school were inclined to snitch. Offer them incentives and you'll have a full-fledged snitching army at your service.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
can be different, but your peers can squeal on you if they think you're dangerous.
The catch is, many so called rationan adults running the schools can't seem to differentiate between different and dangerous, but you expect that all of the students will (remember, it only takes one to make a phone call). If only one person in a school can't tell the difference, it becomes all about be absolutely like everyone else or be on the list.
The real difference is in the leaders. One was lead by a very angry man with a political agenda. The other is the corperation that beat union workers with clubs for protesting unfair labor practices.
But the interesting thing was that the Head of the Secret Service said that the Profiling programs do not work at all.
When I asked Sen. Bill Bradley about youth violence one of the things he said that would help was mentoring programs. Made sense to me.
The Cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Heh. It's been a while, but I remember going to my counselor in 8th grade and saying just that. He told me not to let it bother me.
Thank god I got that message, it made it all better. </i>
If your school fails you, go to your school board. But we don't want someone 3000 miles away saying "We've been getting a number of calls about this kid, better toss him down the garbage disposal just to be safe."
--Dan
I think you're confusing the european meaning of "liberalism" vs. the american one. In Europe, "neoliberal" is the name of the ideology represented by people like Milton Friedman or Reagan: unlimited free market, desregulate as much as possible, etc.; you get the idea.
Are you actually convinced the absolute worst thing about student profiling is the fact that Katz writes about it? Or that the blatantly obvious danger to our society - and perhaps the world, if a generation of Americans grows up thinking this shit is normal - is overshadowed by the fact that someone dared compare this to Hitler Youth?
I'm SO glad you have your priorities straight.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Most schools would never figure it out. It depends on pattern recognition and a good deal of common sense, to say "there's something wrong with this list" - and since most school administrations can't be bothered to learn something about most of their students, we can guarantee it would go over their heads. They might try to modify the program a little when they notice 99% of the students are being turned in, but they'll still think the premise is valid, and absolutely NOTHING about the collected data would serve to convince them otherwise.
I mean, these are schools we're talking about here. If they're not smart enough to see what's wrong with the concept in the first place, they're sure not gonna be swayed by statistically weird results. Schools are too proud of their "systems" anyway - the system is sacred, the system is God, and if the system doesn't work, it's the students' fault. Thus we'd be right back where we started.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
The school wouldn't take the hint. They'd find ways to hunt down and severely punish those who made a mockery of their precious system, and then ignore the lesson they've just been taught - or worse, hold up the perpetrators as examples of the kind of kids they're hoping to flush out with such a system.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
"depends on whether the people doing the implementation are closet Nazis or not"
One look around these United States should tell you, with no uncertainty, that the hatred, paranoia, and desire for an "orderly" society at all costs, all the things which made Nazi Germany possible, are very much NOT confined to the closet.
How many potential abuses can you think of for a system like this? How many wrong ways can it be implemented? Think schools will keep protect the privacy of the "troubled" kids? Fuck NO, the gossip alone will serve to make things worse. Think geeks will be able to report that jocks are abusing them? No, of course not, many schools ignore complaints against their star athletes. What do you think happens to the kids who get reported anyway? At best, a demoralizing talk with the principal; at worst, a student's bookbag or locker would be opened and searched, and any and all forms of creative expression (like the Grim Reapers I used to draw, or sci-fi battle scenes and violent stories, or the weird music I used to listen to) would be used as evidence against them. Does this system help the school identify REAL problem kids - the ones who genuinely do have suicidal tendencies, kids from problem homes, kids with well-concealed problems? Does this system deal with the deep social problems in any school - the cliques, the popularity wars, the structured environment that makes it difficult to make REAL friends - or would it simply contribute to the problem, and push unpopular kids even more to the fringes?
The "right way" to run such a system, if there is one, isn't obvious, and I doubt any schools will implement it. Instead they'll implement it the obvious way, which will SEEM to get the results they want - since the visibly weird kids, whom THEY have suspected are just Uzi-toting criminals anyway, will be the first ones the students report as dangerous, thus confirming what they already believed. Top that off with the "treatment" that will be given to the students caught in this net, especially with the usual patronizing tone and clueless pseudopsychiatry used by many school officials at most schools, you could end up TURNING students into a problem.
And my objection to all forms of student profiling still stands: how many rights and how much dignity was it worth it to sacrifice when the kid who finally pulls the trigger ISN'T on the list? This is precisely the reason this shit doesn't work in real life. But then, I guess so long as high school can convince itself that it need not reflect real life, that doesn't matter.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
So depressed people are dangerous and should be locked up are they?
If only guns were legal in this country, I'd go out and shoot myself in the head now.
Fascist bastards.
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
This does sound utterly absurd, and the Nazi comparison may well be appropriate for once. WHat I'm wondering is: given that you (Americans) don't really have a democracy, the state imprisons a far greater chunk of the population than anywhere else in the world, it seems to be considered fine and natural to burn (black, male) children alive in the name of justice, income distribution is in the same class as a banana republic, and the political and economic power structures are hopeless corrupt : at what point do you lot, the intelligensia (presumably) start to do what the lucky few did in Germany between 1933/38 -- emigrate to a civilised country ? If you don't recognise this description of the US, /please/ don't just flame me as a euro-weenie ... that's just the way it looks to me from Europe.
\a
--
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
I think what's irking you is the obvious journalism.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
I disagree. In a former job, for almost two years i worked exclusively with educators, mostly jr. high and highschool level. I would say that some, maybe 4% of teachers are bright people. And I'm being generous.
Let me reiterate. I am not stating this as an analysis of the teachers i experienced while in school. I am stating this as an analysis of the teachers, councilors, and school administrators i worked with on a daily basis as part of my job function as an adult. Thousands of people, from many hundreds of schools. Day in, day out.
Morons. Drooling morons. Drooling morons who just wanted three months vacation every year, embittered because that turned out to be actual work. Most of them are dead weight, some of them are actively malignant.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Home schooling.
The bizaare stuff that's going on in schools recently on the part of the students as well as the kneejerk reactions of administrators and politicians have the missus and I considering it.
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
"Witness as America starts on the long slide down to anarchy, fascism and ultimately nazism."
If only nazism and facism were somehow closely related to anarchy. While I won't contest that America is leaing into facism and nazi-istic behaviour sometimes, it's far from anarchy. Anarchy would be like a breath of fucking fresh air in the US. If the US *IS* hading towards anarchy, it can't become facist or like a Nazi state. That would be getting monkey while your getting elephant. It can't be.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
Here are their warning signs:
1. Hits or bullies others.
2. Expresses uncontrolled anger.
3. Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
4. Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.
5. Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
6. Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection.
7. Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.
8. Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.
9. Makes threats.
10. Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school.
11. Is easily angered by minor things.
1 through 5 and number 8 are fine by me. 9 and 11 are borderline. 6, 7 and 10 sound alarm bells.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Where I live, in sweden, all schools are by law requered to have a plan and to act against teasing of "different" childrens. You seem to slowly develope the very opposite. Please note: These actions and plans are not allways that good, but the intention is to help the teased children get rid of the teasing. A bit scary, thought...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
the fact that Geeks Like Me would be toast without the ability to go to a counselor or a dean of students and say, "That kid over there is beating me senseless on a daily basis. That sucks!"
Heh. It's been a while, but I remember going to my counselor in 8th grade and saying just that. He told me not to let it bother me. Thank god I got that message, it made it all better.
--Shoeboy
If you really want to understand a lot of people's feelings on this issue you should study some more history. JonKatz isn't doing a very good job of pointing it is that so much of what is going on is identical to early 1930's Germany.
Gun registration, attempted crackdowns on free speech, psychological profiling of anyone who isn't exactly normal. The only thing missing is an economic crash.
What then? We are the superpower. Who is going to confront us if the US spins out of control and the democracy is overthrown?
No, guns in the hands of the people can't stop a rampaging government. But they can sure slow it down.
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
The worst part about the whole thing is that the new Reich is not in anyway original. They are taking all of their plays straight from Mein Kampf.
Get together with your friends, watch some political speeches and see who can be the first to find the identical passage in Mein Kampf - hell make it a drinking game.
More seriously a similar incident happened on Capitol Hill. Following an impassioned speech by one of our noble congresspeople (except Mrs. Chenowith, she is a Congressmen!), another colleague read a very similar speech which strongly agreed with and supported the previous speech. Afterwards he held up the book and informed his peers that he had been reading from Mein Kampf. People pretended to be shocked. A few days later nobody cared.
Are these interesting times or what?
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
> They have the power to directly influence both, including allowing themselves to exchange some freedom for a feeling of safety
"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve deserve neither liberty or safety." - Benjamin Franklin
The problem is I don't see any way for me to stop everyone else from giving away our liberties.
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
And how many people even know about the Bonus Army?
How many people know about Eisenhower, MacArther (sp), and Patton leading a regiment of troops through Washington D.C. gassing hundreds of WW1 veterans in the 1930's? Or the hundreds of women and children injured when the troops surounded the shanty town and set it on fire.
Thousands harmed for marching on Washington D.C. and asking Congress to pay them the money that they were promised when they enlisted for W.W.1.
So much for believing the promises of government.
Check out
http://www.google.com/search?q=bonus+army
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
Thanks for the link, I wonder why Mr. Katz didn't include it? :-)
So it's a movement trying to get publicity. Wonderful.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
... WorldNetDaily? I assume that they're a reason news like this doesn't get into the New York Times, TIME, Newsweek or The Wall Street Journal. I seriously question the source on this one.
Even if it *is* true, give the kids some credit! Would you have been a snitch in high school?
Most teachers are bright people, with at least a Master's and half a life worth's of experience. The concept that teachers and administrators need an (obviously known) organization of spies like this is absurd. They spend at least 180 days with these kids for YEARS. If they don't know them, who does?
At best it's shoddy reporting. At worst it's playing the media for publicity to further a half-baked agenda.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
I think this is a lawsuit just waiting to happen.
Kids are going to be abusing this by turning in unpopular kids or turning in someone they are pissed at. Then the parents (if they happen to be involved parents and not assholes) turn around and sue the school board or this company.
When are people going to fucking learn? Are we so irresponsable that we have to blame everyone and everything but the real issue? Fucking makes me sick sometimes. It even makes me afraid to have children because I know I will raise them to think for themselves and of course that makes them a criminal in the eyes of the schoolboard and the media.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
...at what point do you lot, the intelligensia (presumably) start to do what the lucky few did in Germany between 1933/38 -- emigrate to a civilised country ?
Maybe we'd rather stay here and fight for the resistance!
Fleeing to a more civilized country would mean admitting failure. It's getting bad here, but I don't think it's THAT bad yet. There's still a chance to turn this country around, if we stay and fight the good fight.
And we don't even have to use guns and bullets in this fight (awwwww!). The best weapon is our votes (while we still have them). People actually vote for things like W.A.V.E. Or rather, they vote for politicians who promise more of such things "for our protection", and "for the children". We need to counter that with votes of our own.
Educating the sheep who believe that crap about "protecting the children" is another step in the right direction. As long as people believe that free speech == child endangerment, free speech will lose every time.
Katz mentions geeks because the stereotypical "geek" is a social misfit, an anti-social outsider, and hence a typical victim of the W.A.V.E.
Stereotype or not, geeks stand out, and in essence, W.A.V.E. seems to be all about conforming and promoting a public pathological fear being different.
</deepbreath>
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I remember "The Wave" now! We were shown it in school some 8-10 years ago. I can't believe they chose the same name for their insane campaign! (wow, I sound like a rapper :/)
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I seem to recall a made for TV movie about a high school teacher who started a movement in his school called "The WAVE." Turned out he was the history teacher and was teaching the students about Hitler and group pyschology the HARD WAY. He held a big rally for the students and show them some video of Hitler giving a speech and pointed out the fact that he used Hitler's methods on them. Pretty spooky.
It would have to have been in the early 80's. I think 83-84 sounds about right. Anybody remember?
I wonder if this is where they got the name from?
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
Godwin's Law on USENET says that once somebody made comparisons to Hitler or the Nazis, then the flamewar was immediately declared over because no further intelligent discourse could continue (*). Has Slashdot gone so rabid as to make USENET look polite?? Your battle against geek profiling is hereby declared over, Jon. Find a new dead horse to beat on.
(*) The original law says that "As a thread goes longer, the probability of a comparison to Hitler approaches one." Katz still proves it to hold true.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Let's not kid ourselves, even though /. and some media trashed Mosaic, it still is being used. We can assume that the same will be said for this program.
What would happen if in the first school applied, every student turned in every other student? Or, if 10 anonymous students or so reported on everyone...including themselves?
It would seem easier to screw the system using it's own rules, rather that trying to disprove it from the outside.
So if any students of one of the first schools is reading this message, please organize yourself and a few friends and talk about this idea. If you want to see what could happen, watch the episode in South Park where every one in town, sues.....everyone in town!
Geez- way to miss the obvious sarcasm and accuse someone of not knowing EXACTLY what they are referring to. Try reading a little closer next time.
The idea of the "ruling elite" is exactly what the dimwits in North Carolina are thinking. They think that a fascist mini-police state in schools is the answer. There is no such thing as a benign dictatorship, because control-freaks *always* want more power.
The public does know better. If you don't think they are capable of voting, then they're aren't really capable consumers either. Do you favor a command economy as well?
Religion is for idiots, and you're a fucking fag dude.
1 for 2 ain't bad. Shithead. LOL
--
+&x
Whether this is good or bad depends on what adults plan to do with this information. How do we expect teens and now pre-teens to handle these kinds of situations:
These are serious kinds of situations, that call for mature judgement from responsible adults. You can't leave kids, even relatively mature teenagers, on their own dealing with this kind of stuff. Of course if the attitude of the adults towards being different is that it is a disease that requires counseling, or if they react hysterically to every geek as a potential mass murderer, then it's worse than doing nothing: you end up recruiting adult resources into the cause of teenage hazing. However, it doesn't have to be that way.
There is a difference between the pain of isolation, which can be addressed by mentoring, and networking with potential peers, and clinical depression which requires medication and professional counseling. In each of these cases, responsible adults have a role to play, as an an information resource, as a protector of the child's rights, or as a gateway into clinical treatment, where appropriate.
Consider, with your own experience of being a geek, the different ways you which you would respond to the situations above. Would this be a good thing? I think so, because the experience of being different leads to a more profound maturity than you can acheive just by fitting in and going along.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Could this thing be fought through judicious use of database pollution?
1. Gather together a group of people who are also concerned about this Orwellian nightmare.
2. Get some copies of the school yearbook and divide up the pages among the group.
3. Now start phoning on the toll-free snitch line and call in the name of every single student in the school.
With the database clogged with all those names, profiling becomes extremely difficult if not impossible.
4. Repeat the process until they shut down this moronic program.
Ideology is for ideots.
The fact that you know the full name of a fictional character in a violent movie preaching a false religion marks you as an oddity that must be eliminated.
You will report to the nearest W.A.V.E. centre tomorrow morning for...re-education.
Enjoy your new life as sheep.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Actually to Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin.
Actually the IMDB had the full name, I just cut & pasted.
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Golly, who would have thought that a company whose history involves violent union busting and now is engages in changing farmers 'licencing fees' for patented corn and soybeans that they harvest and store, would sink this low? The much applauded economic boom is also greatly enhanceing the value of private 'security' corporations such as Wackenhut and Pinkerton who get paid to keep those unaffected by the boom locked up. Now they want to profit by acting as a filter before they are even out of school. I hate to say it, but when I was just beaten in high school for being different, those were the 'good ol' days'
I'm only 17, and things have gotten really crappy as far as freedom is concerned, in my lifetime. So many less freedoms, involving pretty much everything: guns, freedom of speech, equal rights. This country of the US of A seems a lot more like the psychotic, relativistic, humanistic, communistic, socialistic regime in Orwell's 1984 every day instead of a freedom based, God-centered nation that respects individuals.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
This is absolutely disgusting.
You people in america REALLY need to stop this now. The police state is only a matter of time, if patently unjust activities like this are allowed.
Strange how these people still completely fail to address the reasons why people become dangerous. It seems that sweeping up the debris is more acceptable than solving the problem.
Still on the other hand, I think that the reward system is ultimately doomed. How long will it be before every child is on these dbs?
--Nothing Funny Here.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Why do I care if someone sees me on CCTV - I am doing no wrong. If that CCTV finds thieves and murderers then it is good. If the CCTV footage is used against me in some other way (e.g., my other half hires a private detective to find out what I am doing getting home late, and he is allowed to view CCTV footage and use that as proof) then I would object. Of course, I have no idea what this CCTV footage is, and a lot of CCTV cameras are dummys anyway.
Of course, CCTV in one area drives bad people to other areas. Hence the rise in rural crime in the UK. It has its good and bad points, and it all depends on whether the system is abused in a manner it shouldn't have been. I don't care that a computer somewhere will hold data about my whereabouts on certain days, as long as it can only be accessed in a way such to prove I wasn't somewhere else (e.g., if the police try to use the fact that I was in location X when I said I was in location Y at the time then that is fair, but I should equally be able to use the footage to prove I was in location X when the police say I was in location Y) or given to marketting people (you were in Moo on this day, the day of the Dixons Sale - here is some targetted advertising literature).
I just don't trust the police enough to let them run it on their own. They might decide that when face recognition systems are installed that the data gleaned could be of so much more use to advertising agencies and would get money back into the underfunded police force that they can talk any authority into allowing it.
So Britain has no Bill of Rights, but is that any worse from having one in words only, like America is becoming? I see no reason for an American to proudly state "I am an American" than I do to say "I am English" or "I am European". I don't care about where people come from, I care about what they are, if they are intelligent, if they will bring something into my life overall. The fact that they are Spanish or Nigerian means nothing.
Of course, the French are another matter :-) (Joke, for you humour impaired moderators)
All after 3 - "I am an individual".
I am glad I live in Europe, which is fast being overtaken by America in terms of stupid rules and stuff. Europe is much more free, but more expensive. Its your choice.
Kids are going to hit on the idea as using this system for revenge - lying to get a reward and getting a rival/hated person in trouble and having data stored against them for the rest of their life.
Do you Americans wish for something like the UKs Data Protection Act? We have had that for 16 years now, and it has been updated to reflect the new Internet economy. You are allowed to find out about anything stored against you in databases, and to ask for that information to be changed or removed if it is incorrect.
I can imagine a lot of lawsuits in America over the next few years as a result of this software. As soon as some kid who has a rich father is dissed against by this system... hello $$$ for lawyers and years of litigation. But America is built upon a base of lawyers...
There is also a book based on the (true!) incident.
Title: "The Wave - a classroom out of control"
Author: Morton Rhue
Search your favorite online book store. (This should be easier to find than a 20 year old made for TV movie.) Searching the web, I found that it is required or recommended reading for classes ranging from 8th grade literature to college psychology.
I hate to be off-topic, but hasn't anyone noticed that the above post is nothing more than a copy of a link that was in the very first line of the article, yet it was moderated up to 5? Obviously the poster was trying to be funny, but all of the moderation was "Informative".
Is the moderation system working?
MSK
Everybody gets on the bandwagon. If the blacklist that Pinkerton's is trying to build is filled with everybody, perhaps by volunteers calling from payphones (Remember that 800 numbers are NOT anonymous!), the system will collapse from too much spurious data.
Yes, this is the solution! Here is what we can do to help. We need to get people to print up stickers which say something like:
WARNING: The school is attempting to profile and monitor you! The school's new W.A.V.E. student profiling system will allow classmates to anonymously create trouble for you with the school administration and teachers. There is only one thing you can do to stop this. Every day for the next year call 1-800-???-???? from a payfone and fasely turn-in a random student at your school. It is importent to turn in students who are not the intended targests for this program too, i.e. if everyone just turns in the people that they think are wierd then the school will pay more attention to the program because it will seem successful. If many diffrent people are turned in this will create confusion and make their database useless. This is probable the only effective way you have of protecting yourself from this program.
and hand them out to students to stick all over the school.
I would suggest locating an online sticker printing company who will handle a large quantity of low-quality stickers for cheap, fill out all their paper work, and publish the paper work online to make it easy for other people to order the stickers too.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Oh, bitch! We could write a web crawler which went arround the internet, found people's name who are associated to high schools (frequently students), and turned them in via the web! I guess we would need to build some IP spofing into it, but that should not be hard.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Has anyone else made the comment (either to themselves or their friends) "Ya know, if I was in High School now I'd be dragged into the guidance office faster than you can say 'black trenchcoat'?" I thought the administration was draconian enough back then, I shudder to think about now...
This whole thing is about making the lives of kids, who are likely already unhappy, even more miserable. Spreading more random misery around isn't going to help.
(Yeah, I know you likely weren't really serious, but I wanted to make the point. We too often forget that we're dealing with real people.)
The cake is a pie
I certainly agree with the goals, but I dislike the kind of tactics that make innocent people suffer for a cause.
The cake is a pie
When I first read this article, I thought it was a terrible thing, and I honestly was glad to be a geek and a non-conformist. I was sure that if something like this happened in my school, I would fight it to the end.
But after reading this post, I realized that the same thing had happened in my school, and I was a big part of it! What first hit me was the term 'peer counselor'. In 8th grade, I was chosen by the school's administration, along with about 10 others, to be a peer counselor. We were trained a bit about suicide and depression, and how to deal with troubled kids. It all seemed innocent enough, and I really liked helping the kids.
What the counselors, who taught the class, told us, was that we were the "in-between" step for students. Students that were having problems and didn't feel comfortable talking to teachers about their problems would request a session with a peer counselor, perhaps by name. We were told to help them as best as we could, and if we thought they were a possible danger to themselves or others, we were to tell the administration about it. We were spies!
Luckily, I never had a case where I had to 'tattle' on anyone, and I think the program as a whole was a success, but only because the peer counselors were an exceptional group of misfits, which I'm isn't what the administration was hoping for. Now that I think about it, those chosen were all in the 'in crowd'. All jocks and preps, if you will, but of the free thinking type.
Anyways, thanks for posting your experiences with this; it has made me think alot about mine as well, and I might even have a talk with the counselors.
> If I want to drive my car, I have to get a license first.
If it is your car, WHY do you need to ask permission from the government to use it on public roads??
You DON'T need a license to freely travel.
> The reason here isn't because it's not a right, but a privilege.
Incorrect. You might want to research "Right To Travel"
Here is one link to get you started.
http://teaminfinity.com/~ralph/dl.html
I travel without my car being registered by the state, and I have no driver's license. I have never been given a ticket for driving without a license. I know many sovereigns who don't as well.
You might also want to look up "License" in Black's Law Dictionary and read the definition.
And then look up proper vehicle ownership:
http://205.218.170.194/www.svpv ril.com/vehicle.html
> We regulate driving because irresponsible use can lead to loss of life
"Those that would give up liberty for security, deserve neither."
All people have the right to life, liberty, and property. A person with, or without a license CAN NOT deny those rights to others: They are responsible for their actions, irregardless if they have a license.
Cheers
A system like this only works because some real person has to do the investigation and I bet they're not funded well enough to handle a real flood
Fellow students are certainly going to see things that the teachers will miss. But are they more likely to turn in violent classmates who might turn on them, or harmless geeks? I know that my friends and I would have gotten targetted by some of our vindictive classmates at least once. Adults often forget what an emotionally charged time high school can be. Here are several hundred teenagers awash in hormones spending several hours every day with their closest friends, worst enemies and secret love interests. This program may catch a few dangerous kids. It will also provide yet another avenue for them to abuse each other, further fueling the fire.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
puh-lease. we all dont have to 'piss in a jar'. I've only worked at one place that required a urine test for drug screening and that place had a lot of people operating dangerous machinery. There are plenty of good and valid reasons to have drug screening. That is not to say that it couldn't be abused but please don't make it out that we're all being watched by Big Brother either.
I find this to be extremely odd... Yes, you are correct that we don't all have to piss in a jar. However, I've had to piss in a jar for all but one IT related job--no heavy machinery was involved in any of them. Of course my experience only ranges over 5 jobs and ~7 years.
So is my perspective skewed or something here? Is your experience primarily with small companies? The one company that didn't test was a start-up. When I talk to people about pre-employment drug testing, companies that don't test seem to be the exception and those that do are the norm. Those that don't usually pay less and have trouble keeping positions filled.
Any stats on what percentage of US jobs require drug testing?
I get so sick of these type of posts.
Sorry. Didn't intend to nauseate anyone.
numb
I know who the first people I'd turn in would be. All those goons brutalizing each other on that big field out back of the school. I mean, they even wear ARMOR! I just play with a nice safe computer. These guys actually manifest their sociopathic, violent fantasies on other living humans! Talk about mal-adjusted, unbalanced youth. Then there's those other guys down in that big room. You know the ones. They wear tights (now THAT'S normal) and rub up against each other and lie on the floor together, getting all sweaty. Ugh. Yeah, I'm all for this program. What's the 1-800 number again?
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
I noticed they also adapted this as a musical and a screenplay. Perhaps someone here knows some high school drama teachers in the area...I think something like this would be too good to pass up :-)
...5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5.
Now I'm not reccomending spam here, but if anyone wants to voice their opinion directly to wave, try one of these:
From www.waveamerica.com/contactus/co ntactus.htm
-JeremyH
/(o\ I'm not a medievalist - I just play one on weekends!
oh, that was "The Wave" by Morton Rhue. Read this at school quite some years ago.
... anyone who reports their classmates to such a register should be the one to recieve counceling.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Everyone will rat on everyone if anyone rats at all, with this system. "Geeks" will rat on the jocks who make fun of them and shove them around; that's violent behavior, isn't it? It won't just be the popular/non-geek/whatever kids picking on the sad, weak, minority; the neutrality of the system means that anyone who is concerned about anyone else's behavior is going to be able to say so and have someone listen.
I object *strongly* to the idea that this system is bad just because it targets 'Geeks'. It doesn't. If you read the webpage, they never say
Instead, they say (on http://www.waveamerica.com/waveline/whycall.htm) And they also say that you should talk to an adult first anyway.To me, this seems pretty innocuous, in terms of it's intent. But of course, I realize that if this thing gets going at all, it's going to be so hideously abused by all the immature people of all cliques, creeds, colors, etc. that it will collapse. If something like this had been around while I was in school, I don't know if I would have been targeted by it or not; I'm certainly eccentric and was picked on for it; but if I had had an anonymous place to tell someone about all the ways I was being harassed, etc, I think I might have used it, esp. if other people in the school were using it too.
IMHO, this program has the best of intentions- preventing unecessary death/violence/bad feelings/stuff for kids in school. It's not supposed to be about making a new club of conformity watchdogs; it's not about conformity at all. It is trying to be about opening up more communication, so that problems get talked about instead of being suppressed until they explode.
for all it's good intentions though, this program will not work for the same reason that this program is needed: people are people, and they will be immature, petty, violent, etc. and a system like this will be abused by everyone if it is abused by anyone, and if it is used by anyone, there will be someone out there to abuse it.
-------------------- the list is long. dirac angestung gesept
While enforcing conformity is a bad thing, it isn't Nazish or Stalinistic, it is obnoxious. This program appears to be well intended: if you think someone is a threat to himself or others, you call a number and they have someone speak to him. Overall, not a terrible state of affairs. If the situation isn't a problem, they go about their business. If they are depressed, maybe they find a good shrink and lead happier lives.
You couldn't be more wrong!!! It is exactly this form of training of individual members of society to learn to look at other members with suspicion and with an eye to identifying difference as deviance that creates the mental mindset necessary to Nazism and Stalinism, etc.
By receiving training in identifying difference/deviance while being able to report to a higher legitimating authority, students will learn to create a new classification within their minds based on a radical sense of "otherness". This will reinforce the inclinations to conformity that are common to people, especially in younger ages. What happens then is that the "others", those that are reported on, become part of a category that is somehow less than equal to that of the reporters. When we are all equal but some of us are less equal than others (to paraphrase), then those who are less equal have less voice, and can be treated differently. Once this situation of radical othering occurs, the rights of the monority can be trampled on. Yes, maybe it starts with repeated harrasments by school counselors and administrators, but this is also the first level in China where intellectual dissenters are regularly rounded up and brought to police stations for "counseling".
When do we start sending different/deviant children off to reeducation camps?
It is that scary!
First I want to protest against the comparison with the Hitler Jugend. The Hitler Jugend was a far more intensive program, of which one had to be a member, whose sole task it was to indoctrinate. Whenever we see something that we don't like it is not immediately Nazi, Hitler, WWII, etc. The use of these terms in rethoric only deflates their real meaning and therefore the memory of these acts.
I have read most articles Jon wrote on this subject and one question just comes to my mind everytime again. Why is this geek-profiling?
I am not an American and I have no idea how life is at an American highschool, but if I look back at my own time in a Dutch highschool there were quite someweird people and they were of all sorts, not just Nerds, Geeks and Goths, but of all groups. So why is that everytime a similar program is started, people on Slashdot start shouting that it is geek-profiling? Do you have so little pride? Are american nerds so weird that people must judge them to be too weird? Why do you act like scared rabbits when it comes to the differences with the 'cool' kids?
I disagree with these programs for the reason that they profile kids based on very little and gives them a stigma that is hard to get rid of. They take a chance away from a kid that should have the chance to develop to his full potential. A good example I find dr. Ben Carson of John Hopskins Hospital. He once almost assaulted somebody with a knife in highschool. He got some help from people around him and he is now one of worlds best neuro-surgeons.
Use Adsense for Charity
I disagree with you here. The Hitler Jugend was about indoctrination. This is not about indoctrination. Being different was not an option in the Hitler Jugend. What we see here is that you can be different, but your peers can squeal on you if they think you're dangerous. This program is not about teaching a certain set of common rules. I find the Hitler Jugend far more repulsive then this programm and this allready smells like all the sewage of New York.
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Ah-ha! I knew those pesky illuminati were behind this one. Looks like their P.R. department goofed up on this one, though. Seriously, from a social-engineering perspective, this program couln't be too hard to tank... the malcontents simply need to "hack" the system. phone: "Yes, Mr. W.A.V.E. representative? There's this kid at my school, he seems violent and agressive, he always wears the number 13 on his clothing and has this weird obsession with kicking things. What? No, I don't know his name by he's the quarterback for the football team... -------------------- Cullpepper "if ya shoot 'em, they don't learn nothin'."
Ahem, please don't draw conclusions about the United States based on the actions of some Bible-thumping Jesus freaks in North Carolina. There is a little bit of civilization in this country - you just have to know where to look. :)
That was sort of my point - I know not everyone in NC is a religious fundy - I was trying to make a (seemingly humerous) analogy that you can't judge the character of a nation from the actions of a very small minority. Note the :) in my original post.
Damn! Today I agree with JonKatz (alias JonKatz). For once, he's not shouting, 'the sky is falling' but has brought up a very scary and real issue.
One thing I wasn't clear on: Jon calls WAVE for-profit. Are they making money, or is it just that Pinkerton's is for profit? If it's the latter, I can't get too upset, assuming there's an arms-length relationship between them. (which I would presume) However, if WAVE itself is making a profit, then it's (as Jon said) even more revolting.
In the meantime, here are some well known social deviants:
Issac Newton
Albert Einstein
Ludwig von Beethoven
Wolfgang Mozart (not that bad)
Vincent Van Gogh
Hector Berlioz
etc.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I registered on Slashdot.
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
You mean Senator Joe McCarthy and the witch hunts of the Senate Un-American Activities Committee? Clearly someone here doesn't remember him.
Yep. And we can thank the politically correct thought police of the political left, the moral relativists, and big-government politicians for that. WAVE is really no different from the U.S. Department of Indoctri^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HEducation. They're just indoctrinating in different directions, neither of which is a Good Idea (tm).
The fact that U.S. is not heeding this warning does not surprise me. After all, this is happening when the people in power in government are of the first generation to not be able to remember James McCarthy, and the Communist Inquisition, first hand.
Hmmm, I can't seem to recall a James McCarthy. I do remember a Joseph McCarthy who led a crusade against supposed communists, though. I suppose your history book must have been written by someone who went through the American public school system... ;-)
JimD
Strength through Community!
Strength through Action!
Strength through Pride!
Strength through Understanding!
Join the Third Wave Now!
A classic in mind control of high school students.
If you dress differant, if you act differant, if you are differant, we will harass you, put you in consealing till you act and feel like everyone else.
And that isn't the bad part of it!
After these kids leave school anyone that doesn't fit into their fucked up view of what their society (school) said was "normal", they will view as wrong!
I am not a bad person, I like people, I go out of my way to make people feel good, make em laugh, or atleast I try. I also have a eye brow ring, not so bad, doesn't hurt anyone and the ladies seem to like it.
So I am standing in line at a public store, buying some cheese, meat and more cheese, I like cheese, pepper cheese. Standing in line right, looking at my cheese, not brothing anyone and these elder lady drops a couple things. I set down my cheese and help her pick up a few things, tring to be the "nice guy", and not only that, I was leaving my cheese unguarded, during this time. If their had been a cheese theif around, I would have really regreted this. But luckily, no one messed with my cheese.
So I have everything back in her cart, expect for a pad of paper, I stand up and hand this to her and are eyes contact. What does she say "Thank you for risking you cheese for the safety of my pad of paper"? No, she says, "what the hell is wrong with you?!" real anger like.
"How do you mean"
"You have something, do you have a ring in your eye?"
"Yea, it is called a stud"
She gave me a dirty look, I didn't think of it, and paid for my cheese and meat and started walking out the door. Before I hit the door the Stores Manager (I assume, he didn't show me his offical ID) tapped me on the arm and ask "Could you come of here a second?"
He was really nice about everything, but basically what he was getting at is that certain customers (while he was looking at the elderly lady) had complained about me soft lifting and using abusive launage. After about 5 minutes, the manager didn't have any reason to hold me. I showed him everything that was in my pockets, patted my coat down, untill he was sure I didn't have anything on me.
He was convinced I didn't have anything on me, and he was really nice about it to, he just had to "check out" all "alarms" as he put it.
The point being, just because someone looks differant, or acts differant, does not mean they are some freak that is going to kill everyone.
Also we have learned, that if you teach people that "this is wrong, this is right, no other way, this is the right way to look, this is the wrong way to look, there is no other way" People do a funny thing and carry that over into their adult life
Never leave you cheese unguarded no matter what! Cheese protection and the safety of your cheese is more important then tring to be a "good person". Watch your cheese
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
You speak of Pinkerton as if it's some secret society or an illuminati..Pinkerton Security is nothing of the sort. They're, for all intents and purposes, a rent-a-cop company (I worked for them when I was 18...I don't recommend security work...I REALLY don't). (now to address the general audience) Aside from that, I'm glad to see someone who's not tossing this piece aside because the author is passionate about it...Anyone who was a geek in highschool remembers what the jocks and bullies did to them. Everyone of you still has the scars, inside or out. It truly amazes me that people would say "Oh, maybe it's not that bad." Remember when you couldn't do anything against the people doing that? Take that situation and add, in addition to the normal tauntings, beatings and harassment that geeks/outcasts go through add a healthy dash of ruining someone's life for fun and profit, and you've not only not solved the situation - you've made it worse. Three words: nineteen eighty four. Anyone who's read it can do the math and see where WAVE could lead us..(Big Brother is now watching your kids). While I'm not going to spout on about conspiracies and political ramifications, there is one MAJOR point that I'd like to make...Take these kids, harassed all the time, beat up, and add the paranoia of being reported to WAVE, as well as the anger they'll feel when (it's not an if...we all know the crazy and stupid stuff we used to do to get even with people..reporting someone to WAVE for social and financial gain is going to happen) they're pulled aside by a guidance counselor, a shrink and a cop, and you're actually making the situation WORSE. While a large portion of the kids reported to WAVE are going to be well-centered, balanced, highly gifted individuals who just happened to get on someone's bad side, there will be those that have the unrealized potential to be dangerous, and putting them through that isn't going to help them, it's going to send them over the edge. Humans are a rash, defensive lot, and if you push them too far, they're more than willing to give you what you wanted all along. I just hope that when the first shooting happens because some kid got reported to WAVE and decided to take revenge on those who put him through that calamity, that noone will forget WHY.
Highly regarded by the big business that employs them, but not by the common man. I'm sure the families of the people they killed during the strikes of the early 1900s would agree.
DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW: This is the most ridiculous, ludicrous, fucked up shit I have heard in years. OF COURSE it is going to be nothing but a free-for-all with all the same fucking loser conformist/fascist types trying to fuck up life in yet ANOTHER fashion for anyone/everyone who is unique, individual, different, creative, follows another drummer, doesn't swim with the lemming crowd, doesn't baaa with the herd of sheeple, etc. etc. ad nauseum. As if they didn't try to make life fucked up for us enough as it is. But shit, we had the power, guts, determination, magick and ingenuity to invent the Internet, to truly render the earth a global village, and to redefine what "WORK" means in the "new millenium". So surely we can figure out a way to STOP these worthless twits ... can't we? Whaddya say, people? What shall we do to overthrow them before they even ascend, to stomp them down before they even rear their pathetic virus-infested heads, to bring them to a screeching, grinding halt before they even cross the starting line??? IDEAS???? ANYONE??? Love is the law, love under will, Shedona (Babalon)
Yes it seems the same tactics used in Germany in the early 1930's are now in use here. 1. Find a scapegoat, "in our case drug users" In Hitler's case, Jews, Gypsies, and many others. 2. Take away everyone's ability to defend themselves, "new firearm confiscation and property confiscation laws that have nothing to do with any drug or crime problem". 3. Turn the children in to spies against their friends and parents and have the STATE be their new guardians. i.e. Hitler Youth. Very VERY scary. Let's shed some light. There will be a new web page soon that will post "among other things" the addresses and phone numbers of any and all corporate executives of major corporations, or even small ones that are worthy as Pinkerton is worthy of our scrutiny. As much information as is NEWS worth concerning them will be posted as well, including their photos, etc. http://thecostoffreedom.com Not on line yet, but the domain is active, just the pages need to go up. We are also incorporating as a news agency so our reports are understood for the news that they are. By posting the personal data of these individuals we will make it possible for people to contact those responsible for the trends and direction of world events. We can then let them know how we feel about their actions, and be sure they know we are aware of how what they do effects us. If anyone has any information that might be helpful, all contacts will be treated in the strictest confidence, names and e-mail sources are removed and erased after receipt. We could always use a new "NEWS" source. So if you work for Pinkerton, or any corporation and have information that you feel is important to us, please contact us. Sincerely the_celt
Think for a moment; you know plenty of kids are going to suffer under this regime. Eventually, some kids w/ influential parents will suffer, and that will be the end this misguided plan. It seems to me eminently logical that these children-of-influence be targeted first, to spare the much larger number of other children, whose parent's voices are marginal, the same suffering. If the goal is to bring down this system quickly, I think the original poster is dead on.
I don't expect you to like this idea. Personally, I think it's devilishly clever, and hope to see someone try this, but soon.
As to innocents not suffering for a cause, I've yet to hear of a worthwhile cause that innocents haven't suffered for.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
This is truly vile, and it deeply sickens me. And what sickens me most, Pinkertons, arguably the largest and most highly regarded security firm in the world, is running this. If Alan Pinkerton was still around today, I sincerely doubt that he would even consider anything so ... ugh! There's no word to describe it.
Pinkerton's Corporate HQ can be contacted here:
4330 Park Terrace Drive
Westlake Village, CA 91361
818-706-6800 - Telephone
818-706-5515 - Fax
But then read their privacy statement. It's shocking:
That's it. That's their privacy statement. Under COPPA, this will be illegal. COPPA demands that websites get a parent's permission in order to collect data from children 12 and under. COPPA goes into effect April 1st, if I recall correctly.
I won't tell Pinkerton if you don't. But I *will* report them.
-Waldo
Now hold on just a minute. I went and read the stuff on the W.A.V.E site and it lists "early warning signs" and "imminent warning signs" for violence, and it may be worrisome that some individuals may be wrongly singled out for attention on the basis of nothing more than presumption, but I saw *nothing* about geeks and I saw *nothing" in any of these lists of behaviours that I'd consider to be especially geekish. Therefore I see no reason why self-appointed geeks in W.A.V.E schools should consider themselves to be at particular risk from this experiment in social engineering.
It looks to me like it's only Jon Katz who's hell bent on associating geekdom with psychological instability and violent crime.
BTW, there *are* other free democratic societies in the world where this sort of social responsibility to one another is taken for granted. It's really only in the US that the idea of personal liberty is worshipped to the extent that issues of safety and security are ignored.
W.A.V.E needn't be Nazism. It depends on how it's implemented. I suppose at bottom it basically depends upon whether the people doing the implementation are closet Nazis or not.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
How about these for starters:
- ...among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
- rights against unreasonable search and seizure,(4th Amendment, I think).
- Free speech, especially the right to protest without harassment.
There are others but in the interest of brevity and time I'll quit here with a more emphatic repeat of my question: where the h--- is the ACLU, and why aren't they involved in fighting this crap?with the idea that the pursuit of happiness should not be encumbered by undue governmental intrusion(s)
Just yesterday the Supreme Court voted unanimously to deny police departments from doing the same type of things that "WAVE" views as foundational -- profiling a person solely based on an anonymous tip -- which in the schools you know will lead to false accusations and then immediately by harassment (getting called to the school's office and subjected to hostile interviewers)
Perhaps I choose to be different than you. Perhaps part of my protest of the existing status quo includes words such as "I hate...", "I feel powerless...", "let's make some noise..." Am I therefore to be branded as dangerous, my name kept in databases I know nothing about? Databases kept by a commercial entity with (AFAICT)no stated privacy policy?
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
http://www.waveamerica.com/.
;-)
Now, gimme the moderation this incredibly Informative (hint-hint) posting deserves!
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Here in the 'land of the free' things are changing incrementally, just slowly enough to let us refer to those who would point it out as alarmists and extremists.
;)
A fine example of that tactic was when those who fought to cap the new federal income tax at 10% were called alarmists -- because the number they chose for the cap was so absurdly high!
Alas, sometimes the 'paranoid' are right...
Geeky modern art T-shirts
The main school in this article [Permian High]is the school I went to. Imagine how much worse this Nazi-like youth 'movement' can be when it happens in a school where:
1. There's ARMED guards
2. There's Metal Detectors
3. Students are required to wear BARCODED ID BADGES!
"Student identification badges will not only immediately show who belongs and who doesn't but also contain bar codes school administrators can instantly scan to show everything from previous tardiness and truancies to medical records. "
4. There are security cameras IN THE CLASSROOMS!
5. Random Searches!
"Permian High administrators, for example, periodically seal off hallways, order students to drop what they are carrying, then run the purses and backpacks through metal detectors."
I was outraged when I heard this was happening at my old high-school. When I was there [grad '92] It was a pretty good school [if you could ignore the football fetish]. We had open campus for lunch and there really weren't any violence problems [a usual amount of fights I guess].
I'd like to think that the students at the school in my day would have fought this. But my mother and step-dad are both teachers in that district [not at this school] and say that the students don't mind it at all...
I think that these 'security' measures, plus this quite Orwellian peer-servailence[sp?] is a VERY dangerous thing.
Ender
Nothing to see here
Disclaimer: I was/am a member of the Boy Scouts, with the rank of eagle.
What's interesting that information like this gets moderated up to "Interesting," and without any facts to back it up. First off, The BSA was founded in 1910 (before WW1 or 2!) by Robert Baden-Powell and William D. Boyce. It was based on the British Military system (yes, even the uniforms), and has been adapted into what you see today
Information on Boy Scouts: /index.htm
http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/0 2-503.html
http://members.aol.com/randywoo/bsah is/b-p.htm
http://users.aol.com/randywoo/bsahis
Information on Hitler Youth:
http://www.cord.edu/homepages/amm orris/paper.html
http://youth.net/memories/hypermail/0 554.html
Google Search: hitler youth
[Seoman] "A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."
Here in the 'land of the free' things are changing incrementally, just slowly enough to let us refer to those who would point it out as alarmists and extremists.
;)
:P
;)
A fine example of that tactic was when those who fought to cap the new federal income tax at 10% were called alarmists -- because the number they chose for the cap was so absurdly high!
Alas, sometimes the 'paranoid' are right...
I have to admit that history was never one of my stronger subjects but even to me this slow erosion of rights, privacy, and freedom seems so obvious.
What really annoys me is that kids starting school today will graduate pre-profiled as conformist, non-conformist, trouble-makers, etc... What happens if someone starts selling that data to employers? Don't say it won't happen. Who would've thought 20 years ago that we'd all have to piss in a jar in the name of creating a safe working environment? Corporations with a lot of money have every right to know every detail they can find out about their employees lives right? How much of the shit in Gattacca would be fiction if corporations/govt had the technology and freedom to do such things? Where's the wording one my 'urine sample analysis authorization' that says "The Corporation agrees not to save this sample for future DNA analysis and will not store it in corporate database or resell it. Furthermore we agree the the owner of said DNA retains the right to control all future reproduction of said DNA." I'm sure a lawyer could word it bettter, but I'm just a paranoid geek
Here's a truly paranoid idea... suppose in the next 20 years or so our government has changed for the worse and has become truly oppressive. The kids we raise today and teach to think for themselves will be flagged in databases and easy targets for an oppressive government. Will this happen? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it worth the risk? NO!
Too bad that being 'naive', 'short-sighted', 'oblivious', or 'uninformed' doesn't carry the same stigma as being 'paranoid' or 'alarmist.' I personally prefer 'clueful', 'aware', or even 'visionary' to describe those that use the past to recognize the negative side effects that our present actions will likely have on our future.
numb
The greatest weapon of the facist is the tolerance of the pacifist. --Suicidal Tendencies (hmm, that one will get me added to a database somewhere I'm sure
Also check out the stanford prison experiment: www.prisonexp.org
The ability of people, experimenters included, to get caught up in games of control is chilling.
Yeah, it was that and Duke Nukem. Personally, this is getting to be a big pet peeve of mine. "The internet made me kill 27 people." "The internet made me want to rob a bank." "The internet made me go out and fuck my neighbors cat."
I'm sorry. I believe that the internet can have a small effect on people but really... I spend over 60 hours a week online and I haven't killed anyone yet. If they went out and killed people because of the internet, it was because they were already mentally instable. If the internet wasn't enough to push them over the edge, it was just as likely that the next commercial they saw for a Leonardo DiCaprio movie could have.
It's kind of like the "guns don't kill people" thing. The internet doesn't kill people, people do. In this case, it was a bunch of sick, wacked out punks with some serious problems.
Please, if the internet was responsible, I'd like to know how. I want to know what type of scripting it takes to make a web site pull the trigger of a gun.
Don't get me wrong on this. I feel terrible for all of the people at Columbine. I just think that blaming the internet is a stupid attempt at rationalizing things and trying to make things better. Humans just can't admit that we have flaws so we have to blame something else.
kwsNI
WAVE = "Working against violence anywhere." This reminds me of when D. Gates of the LAPD said basically that DARE was to get kids to submit to cops.
Press Release
Official Site
Here's the Official Promise (facists!):
This is my school, my space. I want it to be a safe place. I know that violence prevention begins with me. So that's why to this promise I agree. I will... Resolve conflicts peacefully. Talk about problems openly. Treat others with respect. Walk away from a fight. Take all threats and warning signs seriously. Talk to a parent, counselor or other adult about my concerns.
CREEPY!!! Why doesn't everyone scour their site for interesting tidbits!
The truth is that the American political system, no matter how much everyone bitches and whines, is one of the most liberal and open systems in the world!
You're close to being right but not quite...I think I'd rate Canada as being MUCH more liberal as well as a few European countries. I know you said the US gov't isn't perfect, but your comments are still quite positive. Keep in mind that your comments are relative, so they don't really speak to the amout of freedom or control we have over our lives.
Our governement operates like any other government really...they have to keep the population apathetic and throw us a bone once in a while to keep us happy. This prevents their power from being seriously threatened. Movements like the ones in the 60's bring about change, but it is usually nothing incredible, at least not what the "revolutionaries" envisioned. They die out as well, as the institutions remain.
Over the past few decades we've seen plenty of fascist/police state features creep in. Increasing militarization of police, the highest incarciration rates in the world, and strict sentancing guidelines. Modern survailence technology doesn't help either, nor does a media that sensationalizes events and certainly does not promote the citizens best interest. And you would be right, our press is still probably the most open in the world. That doesn't make it any good.
So obviously this article bothers me. I'm not a libertarian like most here are, as I'm not a big fan of capitalism. So when companies come up with plans like this for making money it bothers me just as much as if the government had done it, because corporations have even less public accountability than the government does, and thus are essentially fascist. They care even less about the public than the government does. Corporations that operate for profit in the law enforcement industry have been growling rapidly over the last 10 years or so, and they now have a big lobbying vioce, because more people in prison means more money for them.
All it really takes to end this is education, but not in the traditional sense: people ned to be taught to think for themselves. We all know that the internet didn't cause the Columbine massacre, but most people aren't "aware" enough to realize otherwise. People that read this site know otherwise, but that is because we have been there.
It's one of our countries biggest problems really: instead of finding the root problem and working through it, we take a pill and hope it just goes away.
A good page detailing Ron Jones and The Wave phenomenon.
What I should have said was nothing.
... for pissed-off students to take revenge on other students that have annoyed them. All they have to do is make a single, anonymous phone call and their victim will become marked and monitored, possibly for ever, with no knowledge of the situation or chance of repreive. And I think we'd all agree that at that age, kids can be incredibly vindictive, and I don't doubt that this would become yet another way to pick on enemies and people not conforming to the "typical student" mold.
Any good this service could do (which I personally doubt anyway) will be completely undone by hoax calls in search of revenge. Given a moment's consideration, you would have thought that the people behind W.A.V.E. would have realised this - or maybe they have and it's just a pure publicity stunt with nothing behind it at all.
This is a little disturbing, but as usual our favorite author is inserting his personal bias where he claims to be reporting fact. It is clearly an opinion piece, but his interpretations and the facts of the situation should be a little more clear.
Okay, yes the hyseria regarding school violence is misplaced. Innercity schools with REAL problems are not being targetted, it is suburbanites who avoid the "evil cities" that are scared that violence can hit there area.
I went to a private school for three years at the end of high school after many years in the public school system. We dealt with this nonsense all the time. The school had a dress code that enforced conformity, the school held talks for parents (and made them go or the kids couldn't participate in extra curricular activities) on alcohol use and encouraged parents to report on other children, etc.
This database is unlikely to be maintained indefinitely. If for no other reason, than you need parental consent for recording information on minors. Parents will obviously not consent for their children being labeled insane. This is most likely going to result in people wearing black trenchcoats in school being annoyed by guidance councilors and not wearing black trenchcoats in schools.
While enforcing conformity is a bad thing, it isn't Nazish or Stalinistic, it is obnoxious. This program appears to be well intended: if you think someone is a threat to himself or others, you call a number and they have someone speak to him. Overall, not a terrible state of affairs. If the situation isn't a problem, they go about their business. If they are depressed, maybe they find a good shrink and lead happier lives.
The fact that it is a profitable company doesn't make it wrong. It means that they are going to try to make a profit instead of syphoning off as much money as possible in grants to spend frivolously because they have them. Libertarians champion everything being privatized, this seems like an example of that.
While I think that there MAY be a real concerning story here, our author has failed to separate facts from his fears, so it is hard to tell what, if any, injustice is real and what is yellow journalism by rambling fool.
Alex
So that's the plan. It's a marketing gimmick. A scheme to get kids to buy from their affiliated merchants, build web traffic, and get click-throughs. Maybe to position Pinkertons as an "Internet company", and WAVE as a "portal".
Oh, and you'd think a site intended for kids would have a strong privacy policy? No, it doesn't.
This doesn't really surprise me.
The United States of America may tout it's capitalist infranstructure as the Glorious Saviour of Mankind, but they are closer to communists and fascists than many of their citizens are willing to admint to themselves.
George Orwell warned that this could happen in his epic novel, 1984.
The fact that U.S. is not heeding this warning does not surprise me. After all, this is happening when the people in power in government are of the first generation to not be able to remember James McCarthy, and the Communist Inquisition, first hand.
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
here's the TV movie..
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083316
Apparently based on a true story...
On the one hand, you've got anonymous measurement tools beyond count: Slashdot's AC's, Employer info sites, that Teacher site that's getting sued for Libel...
And it's our god given right to use those, right?
Then on the other, you have W.A.V.E. . Similar anonymous measurement, *EXACT* same potentials for abuse(unpopular people get slammed unfairly for fair actions, etc.) The technology itself--anonymous evaluations--remains consistent. So what's different?
Lets see. The former consists of individuals commenting on members of a larger institution. The latter consists of larger institutions retrieving commentary from their individual members <i>regarding</i> their individual members.
Still, this doesn't establish that there's anything wrong with W.A.V.E. I generally want the institutions I'm a member of to protect me from other members--particularly schools. There's an irrational "tattle tales are bad" chant that ignores the fact that Geeks Like Me would be toast without the ability to go to a counselor or a dean of students and say, "That kid over there is beating me senseless on a daily basis. That sucks!"
Yes! Tattle! If someone's making your life miserable, <i>you can do something about it</i>! Schools have and need infrastructure to deal with this.
And that's when things start to fall apart for the W.A.V.E. program. There's something truly perverse about what it has people report...it's not those students who <i>cause</i> the most misery who get busted; it's those students who everyone looks at and says, "Man, that kid is such a loser and everyone hates him. Shit, he's gonna take a gun and shoot up this place!"
In other words, W.A.V.E. has implicit in its design a scheme that doesn't prevent harassment, rather it provides a means of tagging and identifying the harassed. This wouldn't be an awful thing, if it wasn't so presumptuous and backwards--we need to do something about this poor kids who get kicked around every day...not to deal with the violence of them getting kicked around, mind you! "That's normal, you see. Kids establish a pecking order, you can't fight that." No, this isn't about stopping the kicking, it's about essentially providing a means of recognizing when a kid's been kicked so low that they might start fighting back. It's to recognize when kids are brought to the point where they have nowhere to go but up.
How scary, that after months of enduring torment, your institution itself gets into the act, worrying that something must be wrong with you if the popular kids don't like you.
And thus, where the <i>real</i> fear of this system is coming from: It's not the anonymous reporting--we like anonymity, look at all the people who make a career out of bashing Katz on a regular basis. (Incidentally, I was impressed by this story--this is probably some of Katz's beter writing.) It's not even the knowledge of the institution that there are kids who are getting kicked around.
It's that the institution isn't the school.
It's the idea that, someday, some accountant will send your dean of students a "scientific report" saying you're just too likely to react dangerously to all the abuse he's been allowing under his nose. There's a tendancy to use science to absolve personal responsibility in institutional management, and if The Numbers Say You'll Kill Someone, it just doesn't hurt administrators all that much to "send the child to a special school" "just to be on the safe side."
Nobody wants to be held responsible when some kid shoots up the school, and *THEY KNEW* something was going to happen--after all, that kid had a 83.2 on the Gonna Shoot Up The School scale--why wasn't he kicked out, they'll ask?
Don't laugh. If 82% of America can blame a f*cking network of computers for a schooltime massacre, *phear* what they could do to the actual administrators.
This is essentially outsourced psychological risk assessment. Instead of people within a school dealing with the problem and actually handling things from the inside--where things are visible--schools become a sort of "black box", with little candy treats being waved around to elicit data about its inner operations from unknown members inside.
When the data comes in from an outside agency, with a scientific chart o' student issues, held within a database protected by not a relevant data protection code in the country(ooh! Wanna sell Prozac? W.A.V.E. licensing divisions, how many depressed kids would you like to sell to today?)...it stops being an issue of whether tattling is right or wrong, and starts becoming a question of just how much cynicism are we willing to accept in our school infrastructure.
Calling this program WAVE, after that after school special, is so amazingly unfortunate for this program that it defies description.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
I just had a thought on a little "harmless" prank that could make things interesting for WAVE. Of course I'm not actually advocating that anybody do this, oh no--just pointing out a possible vulnerability.
Congress has 100 senators and 435 representatives. At least a few of them have teenaged kids. I'm sure they'd appreciate the early warning from anonymous sources that have fingered junior as a depressed violent druggie anarchist.
Anyone else remember the creepy CBS after school special about the wave? It was about a hitleresque movement too. At least that had a happy ending where the kids realized their behavior was wrong. . .
This is not the first rat-on-your-peers program I have heard about. In my college, they recruited students who lived in dorms for one. It was a special group called peer counselors. They were basically behavior/mental illness narcs. They were supposed to gain the confidence of other students if they saw any signs of depression etc. Any hint of depression and they would turn over their fellow students. They were trained in how to do this.
You see, depression can lead to suicide so they treated any even mildly depressed students as "A danger to themselves or others." This is a cause for summary suspension in most schools and cause enough to lock anyone up against their will indefinitely in most states. You lose all civil rights. You may be tortured. You have no right to communicate with others if doctors feel that is not in your best interest. You lose your right to vote and marry. And you never get a real trial. Sadly, a student just homesick and a bit blue could find themselves forced into counseling and maybe out of school. Oddball or unpopular behavior might lead to the diagnosis of schizophrenia with similar results.
My school had plenty of volunteers for their corps of depression narcs; after all they were helping those poor kids. There are always plenty of people willing to mind their peers business. Let people feel good about this and you have a loyal following. Some churches seem to function on this theme as well. It is very compelling. At least the charge of sin doesn't get you locked up.
In the United States at least, the charge of mental illness is very like the cry of Witch! in Salem once was. And once accused, you lose credibility no matter the truth of the charge. The only way to prove your sanity is to take tests that may very well help them lock you up. It does not matter if you have done anything wrong. Admitting to a single thought that you wish you could die even though you would not harm yourself can be enough to condemn you. Imagine telling someone you thought of as a friend about an embarrassment and saying "I just wanted to die" and then being kicked out of school. It has happened.
Peer behavior narcs in high schools is a very scary thought to me, but then I am not pleased with the paranoia that D.A.R.E. teaches kids. Did you know they outed the Snuffelupagus because they felt teaching children that sometimes they are right when the whole world doubts them was dangerous?
Scary stuff.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
"It's a carbon copy of the Hitler Youth program used so successfully in World War II Germany to root out dissidents and oddballs."
Actually, this sounds even worse to me. The Hitler Youth was "just" a youth organisation, at least at the beginning. And even later on, the motivation was mostly political and even paramilitary "education" of the members, not using them as a extension of the Gestapo (the Nazi internal intelligence service). The Hitler Youth has to be seen in this context. They were the pre-school of the fascist government, preparing young people to be "good citizens" (in the perverted sense the Nazi government thought of this). Spying on others was not explicitly asked for, at least not as far as I know. (And Nazi history takes up quite a big part in german history education).
It was a bit different with the "Freie Deutsche Jugend", the national youth organisation of the former GDR. Members were explicitly asked to inform their leaders of any planned attempt of "Republikflucht" (unauthorized leave of country, usually to the FRG) they got to know of, and some even turned in their parents.
But what you are talking about _is_ asking for spying on peers, and what's more, it is happening in a democratic nation. Appropriate action should be taken (and I do consider your article as such) before this starts to take off.
Successful fascism starts in culture, not in politics.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
*sigh* What ever happened to the days of simply getting harrassed, teased and occassionally roughed up simply because you were different? Now you have to worry about secret profiling, your own peers spying on you, and potentially much worse. It's not as if I'm remembering a time all that long ago either. I graduated high school in 1995, and I must say I had the good fortune of graduating from a high school that, while not the most accepting of places, at least allowed kids to be different. Now I find when I went back last week to visit a former teacher of mine, there are security cameras everywhere, students must wear id badges, and those who are not the classic, good little J. Crew model kids are afraid to even talk to each other.
So here's my idea. After speaking with a few former teachers of mine (who also can't stand where things have gone, but they have to follow administration, or else they lose their jobs), none of whom are happy about where things are heading, this is what they'd like to do. They'd like to be allowed to actually play a role in their students lives. They'd like to be allowed to be friends again, and instead of further marginalizing those who are different (many of whom read this) and actively pushing them towards violence (that's what things like this do, it's very easy to adopt a cornered animal mentality in this type of setting), why not allow faculty to get to know students again. Maybe if teachers can be mentors again, instead of secret police there wouldn't be such a serious problem facing schools.
But then again, what do I know, I've only been then, graduated, and moved on to a successful life, thanks in large part to teachers who not only were mentors, but were also friends.
-J
If I could only live my life with my threshold at 4...
The United States of America may tout it's capitalist infranstructure as the Glorious Saviour of Mankind, but they are closer to communists and fascists than many of their citizens are willing to admint to themselves.
I'm not an American but I grew up there. The truth is that the American political system, no matter how much everyone bitches and whines, is one of the most liberal and open systems in the world! You vote for INDIVIDUALS. You cast your vote and get a person that is 'responsible/accountable' to you because you voted for HIM/HER, not the party. You don't get this anywhere in Europe where you vote for these huge religous-ideological blocks. Bleh.
The US also has very good separation of church and state. Do laws that support a certain church's preaching get passed? Of course they do, but only because the people who voted wanted it this way. Each election has propositions, or laws directly voted on by the people. In any European country you'd need a referendum to get an issue passed, and even then the exact wording of the bill would be left up to the politicans.
The truth is this. Every election, Americans make choices concerning their freedoms and restrictions. They have the power to directly influence both, including allowing themselves to exchange some freedom for a feeling of safety. You don't get this in a lot of European and Asian nations. And you certainly don't get it in Africa.
I'm not saying that the US political system is perfect in any way, I'm just saying that you need to remember that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
Remember to VOTE!
Jay
-- polish ccs mirror
The actual press release from Governer Jim Hunt of North Carolina is at:
http://www.governor.state.nc.us/news/releases/WA VErollout.htm
This really saddens me, expecially since I am a Western North Carolina resident. First we have to deal with little broadband bandwidth in the backwoods here, and now with Hitler youth!
"The tighter you squeeze, Lord Vader, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." All this police-state stuff just makes kids more alienated and afraid to talk, which in turn makes them more dangerous. Of course, if you could trust school administrators not to be vicious idiots, a program like this might make sense. But in an age of expulsion for gun-shaped charms on charm bracelets, that sort of trust is hard to come by.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
But don't just register yourself with W.A.V.E., register yourself on The Psycho-Killer Registry as well. In fact, don't stop there, register all your friends and family too.
- Have you ever listened to Marilyn Manson, or other "dark" music, and not disliked it?
- Have you ever gone to hollywood movies, and enjoyed them?
- Have you ever played computer games?
- Have you ever felt lonely?
If any of the above are true of you, then you may be a threat to society, ready to snap at any moment!Go on, do the right thing - register.
I seem to remember a TV movie years ago about a California high school teacher who tried to explain to his students how the Nazis and Hitler Youth were accepted. He created a "pride" organization in the school that became very scary pretty quickly -- all to demonstrate how it happened. The name of the organization -- and the movie -- The Wave.
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they make as they fly by