Slashdot Mirror
California City Issues Internet Cafe Moratorium
DarkZero writes: "The Sacramento Bee is reporting that the City Council of Garden Grove, California has issued a 45 day moratium on internet cafes following a fatal stabbing and several other crimes, with the justification that internet cafes are "improperly supervised environments" that very large groups of minors frequent daily (mostly to play games), and that a lot of gang violence has cropped up because of this. Another new restriction is that minors may not stay in any internet cafe past 8PM on a school night, though it isn't clear whether or not that restriction will be lifted after the 45 day period." The New York Times has a similarly breathless story, emphasizing the violence of games played at such cafes.
Doesn't minors have civil rights?
More to the point is that the city should have its own curfew.
And you complain about Australia being restrictive? GTA3? Well I'd classify this as being a whole lot worse than the banning of GTA3.
blah blah blah, lets make us an issue for the upcoming election...blah blah blah. I remember back in the day it was "RAP causes violence", and "Rock n Roll causes violence", and eventually "Peace rallys cause violence" 'twas inevitable.
Heaven forbid we forget that this isn't about the violence of the games, but is about juvenile deliquency in general. It is contrary to the public interests to let juveniles be out unsupervised after a certain time.
When you come up with a good way to get these geeks to give each other cupcakes and make nicey-nice, then you can complain!
I'm the tasty treat nobody can resist!
IM Me! AOL IM:Tasty Beef Jerky
Clearly, we need greater accountability and responsibility on the internet. Enough planes have been hijacked, buildings blown up, children threatened and women raped to show that unlicensed, unmonitored, anonymous internet usage (made even easier with Internet Cafes) to show that's it's like carrying around an unregistered handgun, just too dangerous to allow anymore.
Good riddance I say. If you can't afford a PC and phone line for browsing ( a perfectly adeqate Pentium will do, and you can buy one for under $100), go to a public library for surfing under the watchful eyes of concerned librarians.
Another great example of parenting by proxy. We can't control our kids so we'll let the government do it for us. To me, if these are violent kids to start out (which it sounds like) then we should be glad they are focusing their anger on video games and not out on the streets.
Hopefully after 45 days they will open up the cafes again with some proper supervision and this won't be another Indianpolis.
Roads were closed in California because they make people prone to anger and violence.
I already noticed this like 10 years ago after noticing the increase in cannabalism due to mrs. pacman.
I intend to live forever, so far so good.
Gee, a place to load up on caffeine and get on a pay-per-use PC to play Quake...
What, is that not a good idea after all?
------
Today's Top Deals
All these instituted regulations on minors remind me of the fundamental flaw that is at work here.
Namely, if it is so important for said minors to not be playing violent video games after 8 PM in the evening, then where are the parents? If you want to replace parents with government, then just say so and call the modern family a failure.
I doubt "the Internet" has anything to do with this issue. It's just another thing for kids to do. Movie theaters were probably thought to be similar breeding grounds for dissoluteness back in the 1920s when the problem was really that the parents didn't care enough about what their children were doing.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I'm wondering why the management allows this clientele into the cafe's to begin with...
One of the new restrictions will be that minors not accompanied by a parent or legal guardian may only stay at the cafes until 8 p.m. Sundays through Thursdays. Fridays and Saturdays they can stay unaccompanied until 10 p.m., city spokeswoman Kathy Moore said.
That solves it! So what do you think these youngsters are going to go do after they get booted out at 8/10 p.m.? I assure you, they won't be going home for bed-time. This just gives the kids a few extra hours to get even more bored--just think of all the stabbings they could accomplish with all this new free time.
Good to see government still knows how to protect the children.
I wish just for once.. i could read about a problem with kids and hear about a solution instead of some rediculous feel good legislation.. For gods sake help these kids.. become mentors.. work on getting better parenting for them. Solve the F*cking problem! Making them leave an internet cafe is brilliant?! So they walk down to the local park, field, parking lot.. and kill each other there. The people in charge don't care enough to do anything that would make a positive difference so they do something.. just so they cant be accused of doing nothing. It disgusts me.
Yeah, let's get violence off the computer screens and put it back on the street where it belongs.
why can't people regulate this 'phenomenon' themselves? if someone is stabbed,
and people think this is a bad thing, DON'T GO BACK!
why let the govt place unnatural controls on cyber-cafes? blows my mind. why does the govt
feel they need to protect me by regulating a business?
it's all about control. the old, gray men are trying to control innovation.
Mod this guy up. I live just near the place. Its a lovely place, real gentile. The name "garden grove" sums it up real nice. /sarcy
Maybe while their at it, they should ban the hairdresser down the road - someone got shot outside it. Personally, i blame those pointy sharp scissors and the fact that hair dryers look distinctly like guns.
Of course, the amusing part fo the story is that the mayor ran on a platform warning voters that without him, the town would turn into a police state [ocweekly.com].
goats.com: better than
Following a violent incident in California grocery stores, the state has issued a 60-day moratorium on eating.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Obviously the gang members are violent because they play games about violence. It's highly unlikely that gang members might be violent because of social/economic reasons.
Clearly if we take away the violent games, gang members will have more free time for doing the activities that gang members are known for. Namely attacking other gang members and acts of violence.
Gang members don't need games to have a reason to attacking each other. They can use any excuse handy.
"After all, when adults shoot each other they don't blame Tony Bennett." - Don Imus
Intercarve Networks, LLC
Typical Liberal cocksuckers.
Soooo, this curfew does what, exactly? What's the difference if I shoot someone before or after 8pm?
"Adequacy.org: Where congenital stupidity is not an option, but a requirement."
we'd be listening to repetitive electronic music in a darkened environment, munching pills!
It has been forbidden to read fairy tales to children because of an incident where children have put an elderly woman in an oven.
Singapore, which touts itself as the e-capital of asia came very close to banning internet cafes and in particular half - life due to the "violent nature" of the games.
Officially the government cited "incidents" where gangs would resolve their problems with a game of counterstrike rather than a good old fashioned fist fights as the reason for banning (temporarily) internet cafes
However the rumored reason is that an official high in the ministry of education had a son who was performing badly at school (school is very very important here) and blamed the poor grades on time spent playing half life. After going to confront the owner of the internet cafe his son frequented, a shouting match ensured in which the official declared that he would ban internet cafes and half - life. Sure enough it happened soon after. Thats how the cookie crumbles in a one party state
I feel your pain... morons, most of them.
In India, it was the burgeoning growth of the ubiquitous cybercafe that brought about more or less, a revolution. True, it was the novelty of seeing and listening to an entirely different medium but as the rage caught on, people and the government began to realize the potential reach of these cybercafes so much so that for some time, it was even subsidized. Today, India isn't far off from having near-complete access to the Internet, something quite unimaginable a few years ago.
Of course, perceptions vary soon as we take America as a case study. The cybercafe culture has come to symbolize a pseudo-liberation of a youth both from the family as well as from reality. Significantly, it is usually the adolescents in a confused period who throng to these places. Even though, hard-core First Amendment fanatics might come to criticize this move, it is necessary at least temporarily, to enforce peace and order.
I'm betting on the white guy. - mighty-troll
Remember the same bad talk about the videogames rooms a couple of years ago. Probably it was the same with the pool rooms before, and....
People don't learn with the past, dont't they?
------I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either.------
I used to work for a company that would break every Friday at 3 to play UnrealTournament or HalfLife. Two hours of every week we'd spend splattering eachother's body parts across digital walls and floors. A good time was had by all. And when the boss stopped paying us because he'd wasted all the company funds, we simply walked away, and called our lawyers. We didn't kill him, like we had done so many Fridays in the digital universe - we didn't even give him a severe pounding (which he sorely deserved). Somehow, despite the excellent sound and graphics of the game, we still seemed to grasp the difference between the game and reality.
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
Internet cafe has now turned into a modern day, high tech arcade. They should not have to do anything different from a arcade owner. If an arcade owner has to apply for a license, so should internet cafe. If an arcade has to abide by a certain regulation, so should the internet cafe. However, extra burden should not be place on the internet cafe because it is modern and may seem different.
That's what I find troubling with a lot of new regulations coming out. There are a number of prior laws that could be used to cover the computer industry but they often make new laws specifically targetted at it. Remember, computers are only another tool.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
(c. 1923) Police in an unamed mertoplitan area banned all sale of alcohol, after noting its' strong correlation to domestic crimes. "People expect the police to protect them," a spokesperson said. "We can't do that if these crime-enducing liquors are on sale."
Wow, you'd think people could learn from history. Two things may be related, but changing one doesn't neccessarily change the other (cause & effect).
Do you like Japanese imports?
Now that they're kicking the minors out early and extending the hours, that leaves 6 hours for the old folks to frag each other instead of getting fragged to oblivion by twelve-year-olds!
You're no obitman. At least he tries to put some info in his post to make it realistic. If you are going to be a copycat, at least try to add something to the genre.
were playing Counterstrike then being booted out of a cybercafe at 8pm and hanging out on the streets.
Garden Grove is not an area I would want to hang out in after dark. The fact that the kids are playing games probably has nothing to do with the violence. If you simply have a bunch of hoodlums haning out, there will be a problem, no matter what it is that they are doing.
On the other hand, if you want to go to Garden Grove during the day, you can get some tasty Chinese or Vietnamese food. It is actually a cool place to go shopping at as long as you are in a well lighted area.
I wonder why a newspaper in Sacramento is running a story about it....I doubt they could accuratly report about any happenings in GG since Sacramento has to be about 700+ miles away.
... that the innocent cafe would become the modern-day pool hall?
Try reading the article instead of making assumptions from the title and summary.
Not once in the article does any governmental or authority figures claim a link between the gang violence and video game violence.
Rather, the concern is over having an area where a large number of minors gather, while having virtually no method of enforcing security. Sure, the solution doesn't seem like a very good one, but this topic is relevant to Slashdot just because the internet is mentioned?
Not anymore. @home cratered.
Best Slashdot Co
...since they also closed the football and baseball stadiums those roads lead to--those players can be vicious. And the stores--haven't you ever seen the spouse and child abuse that occurs in places like WalMart?
Hate trolls? Troll 'em back...at home!
I blame politics and bad parenting! If the parent(s) would take a few moments of the day and even life with their kids insted of reling on computers and T.V. the world might not be so bad.
School shootings don't happen because of video games, music, or drugs.
wasn't it ruled unconsitutional to have cerfews for kids?
I mean city imposed ones... isn't that like the same thing?
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
what if, say, you are a minor and attend a university where you have no classes two or three days of the work week...what is considered a school night for you? or, what if you happen to work in these internet cafes...it is legal for you to work there... and have to stay till after 8pm?
This is ridiculous. violent video games my ass!
This is clearly why our country is going down the fucking drain. There's a Texan in the white house, and your ignorance goes even further to display what people from the bible belt don't know about coastal city living. California may be one of the more liberal states in the Union, however that doesn't mean their "knee jerk" reaction is to ban whatever they don't understand. If you read both articles it might become partially clear to you that the politicians and police involved aren't banning or even restricting the use of Cybercafe's because the new P4 is "mean looking." They admit that this "phenomenon" is something they haven't but want to look more closely at so that they can understand what is causing the problem before they overreact.
"But it was the murder of Mr. Ly that brought the confluence of gangs and computer games -- once the province of harmless nerds -- to a dangerous level.
"That was a wake-up call," said Bruce A. Broadwater, 60, who has been the mayor of Garden Grove for eight years. "We suddenly thought, What's going on here? Are these cafes places where hoodlums hang out, like pool halls in the old days?"
"I've gone and looked at a few of these places, and I've seen very little wrong with them," Mr. Broadwater said. But just because their patrons are honing their computer skills "doesn't mean they shouldn't be in school," he said.
Of course the newspapers are being sensationalist, that's what newspapers do. However even the most "hardened"=) gang investigators in dangerous little Garden Grove, will admit:
"It'll start with a personal problem, and then someone will break someone else's window and he'll call in a friend who's a gang member," Detective Vi said. "Then it'll become a beating, and it'll evolve to gang on gang."
So you see not everyone outside the "Great State of Texas" is a jackass, even though that's more than I can say for some.
Back in the days of the Cold War there was a joke that went like this:
In a very real sense, the Internet will come to be viewed as the ultimate secret weapon. Information is very hard to control, and free access to information is a serious threat to the despot. The Chinese and the Saudis both fear free access to information--they're sufficiently connected to the rest of the world to know that they can't simply disconnect their people from the Internet, but they're trying very hard to prevent access to "bad information." The Chinese, in particular, are cracking down on Internet cafes (here's an article from the official People's Daily, a slightly different perspective from the Digital Freedom Network).
An effective way to attack injustice is publicity--and an effective retort is to say, "oh, but [name other country] is doing it too--we agree completely." In this case, the Chinese and the Saudis can loudly and publicly proclaim their agreement with "the Americans" and continue tightening the screws on their citizens access to information.
One of the great strengths of America is that any clown can run for elective office. One of the great weaknesses of America is that so many clowns manage to get elected.
I can say that this is a good thing. These aren't your average "internet cafes", really. They're all mom-and-pop places. Kids get games pirated or hang out and do drugs; heck, the only way one of them is even profitable is by selling drugs. Most of them are run off pirated software. There are a lot of asian gangs that frequent these places.
They give computer gamers a bad name, and I'm glad that they are closing down.
awww, come on guys, you know that shit made you laugh.
It's disappointing that they're not going after the real problem, gangs, and are instead treating all youths as a problem. But then this isn't new either. I remember well seeing signs "No more than 2 students in the store at a time" or "All school bags must be left outside" and so on as a teenager. The significant difference is that the local government is making the regulations. A private store should probably be allowed to do this, but for the government to do it should be unconstitutional, its directly squashing the right to free assembly. Of course that doesn't matter, juveniles can't vote, most adults have carefully excised any memory at all of what it was like to be a teenager.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
Maybe we should try to "understand" the criminals or try to find out what in their childhood made them so mean. F--- them... maybe we should start 2 striking or heck one strike some of these thugs. I'm willing to pay if it'll keep knives out of other people!!
I, like many others, have already stuck the boot in with a sarcastic comment about this turn of events.
However, could there not be a link between on-line "clans" and off-line "gangs"? Where rivalry and competition on-line spills over into violence and bloodshed in the real world? After all, this has happened elsewhere in the world before, as reported by slashdot.
eh
you, Americans, are too funny!
you loose your rights, and you keep saying that you are the best and more free country in the world! And the funiest part is that you encourage your gouvernment when it is doing thing like that!
heheh
so its quasi-legal to smoke medicinal marijuana, but dammit, don't let those kids play Counter Strike in public. Makes sense......for California.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Scary thing is most of the parents supporting this measure were probably teens themselves around the time that the last great "let's close all the arcades!" wave hit.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
While slashdotters will bitch and moan about this because they are quick to jump to conclusions this moratorium comes after several internet (cafe) related crimes in Southern California in the past couple months. A UC Irvine student raped and killed a teenage girl he met online a couple months ago. Then the stabbing of the guy recently. This is a moratorium on any NEW establishments opening in Garden Grove for 45 days while other provisions say minors not accompanied by an adult have to leave after 8pm on days where the next day is a school day (Sunday - Thursday) and 10pm on Friday and Saturday. It sucks it had to happen because it means not enough parents are keeping tabs on their fucking kids. The cafes themselves also aren't charging people anything to be on the property so people are inclined to hang out for free which is just a welcome sign for people you'd just as soon not have around.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Last year, I use to visit the internet cafes (though these are in NYC) pretty often. I, like most other people, went to play Counter-Strike.
When one or two first opened around my place, they were relatively quiet, filled with kids who would rather be out with friends playing a game than sitting at home doing it.
But then they started getting pretty popular. Soon, we'd all go in and almost all the computers would be taken up.
And when you played, kids would truly get violent. You'd make a kill on someone and they'd get up out of their seat and start saying stuff like "Yo! Who da fuck is _______ (insert username of person who just killed him here)"
The thing is, you can't just go about banning these places because of these assholes. Unfortunately, there is normally only one person supervising the place and they normally try to avoid doing anything but collecting the 3 dollars a hour you pay.
At first, when I read about the 45 day stall, I was kinda taken aback. But now that I look at it, it's appropriate. It's not permanent. It gives these places a month and a half to hire more staff, or security, or what else is going to be needed. It's really unfortunate that this stuff is needed in the first place, but kids apparently can't take a game.
One other thing: To say it's the game itself that causes violence is bullshit. Absoutely bullshit. If this is the reason the restriction is being placed, then you better do it to all competition. Gangs are formed there too, except they're called "teams".
They key to competition is having it supervised tightly so it never gets out of hand. As lame as that sounds, it's the fault of kid's my age that brought it to that.
Moral Panic regularly shows it's ugly head.
...and sometimes the consequenses can be really, really horrible.
It tends to hit all new, and all youth related trends in society.
For example, every single new kind of music since the renaisance(sp?) has been accused of courrupting the youth. (Jazz, Rock, Rap...) Not to mention, comics, novels, violent movies etc.
There is a very obvious pattern of finding scapegoats for complex issues. This is probably as old as man, and very hard to get rid of.
Fact is that scapegoating is a easy way to analyze a problem. Of course it's not accurate, but people tend to like simple explanations. And if you think you have an explanation to a problem it makes the consequenses of the problem less frightening.
For example, the statements:
Children kill eachother because they play too much quake!
Al Quaida bombed us because Bin Laden is evil incarnate!
Makes people feel good, because they see a clear cause to the problem, an easy fix, and most importantly:
It's not their responsability! It makes people feel good that it is not their fault.
They don't want to hear things like:
People join Al Quaida because their lives suck so much they think it makes sense. They blame you for their misery, partly based on that you have (for example) bombed at least one country in the middle east region every decade for some time now. If you or your family got beaten wouldn't you consider the person on the other end of the stick an enemy? With a different US foreign policy Bin Laden might not have (m)any followers.
This statement is probably at least equally true to the statement of Bin Laden being Evil. But for the reasons above it will obviously gather less followers.
I think this is just a basic flaw in humans and the only way to deal with it is to be aware of it, and show some healthy skepticism about overly simple solutions to complex problems.
Because they don't work.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
...my kid's first person shooter character is wearing gang colors?
A.: Only if the price tag is attached and rendered for both team... uh, I mean, gang members and opposing gangs.
A.: Only if one of the items collected, upon killing opposing gang members, is their sneakers.
Ad Infinitum...
Regulation will solve it? Licensing will solve it?
Come on. How about considering the option that the person responsible for the teenager should be held liable to the full extent of the law.
Don't make cigarette shops card a teenager, don't make internet cafes card a teenager, don't make ANY commercial or private individual become a watchdog for the government or a parents -- because that's how we've become a nanny state.
Parents are lazy because they feel they don't need to parent anymore. Instead of watching TV with their kids, they can set their V-chip to "Rated G" and forget about it. Instead of browsing the web with their kids, they can install software, in hopes it will work 100%. Instead of finding out why their kids weren't home by 10, and grounding them for a month or three, they can hope the government will regulate a coffee house, arcade, net cafe, whatever. Instead of searching their teen's jackets and drawers looking for drugs or cigarettes, they can rely on the nanny state.
I say get rid of all regulations like these, and lets finally force parents to do the job they are responsible for: parenting.
Were watched a little more closely so they weren't hanging out in the streets senselessly! Take responsibility and watch your own kids!
Oh boy, not another death where a bunch of people get together?
While it is sad, the loss of human life, this had absolutely jack shit to do with the location. Anywhere a large group of young people (hell even middleaged people) gather, there is a good chance someone will get hurt or killed. It's human nature. Putting a moratorium on the i-net cafes won't do a damned thing.
Sheesh
Sent from your iPad.
Mod me the fuck down, if you dare:
US minors are not responsible, but they can be sentenced to death. Almost no other country in the world does that. Way to go, USA!
US adults below 21 cannot drink alcohol, but they can serve and get killed in the army. Way to go, USA!
Not to mention guns...
Mass murder rates would probably plummet if potential mass murderers would have to try taking out a building armed with a sharpened stick.
This is not flamebait.
I just wonder if it wouldent be wiser to try to contain the effects of violence rather than eradicate it through symbolic knee-jerk reactions...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Isn't the purpose of an internet cafe to provide internet-connected computers for travellers and/or people who otherwise don't have computers/internet connections?
So why have they somehow transformed into glorified arcades? If the owners of such cafes have games on the computers, then they need to be licensed in the same manner as arcades. If they don't want to be an arcade, then they shouldn't have the games, they shouldn't rent time to kids to play games, and they should market themselves as a serious service for people who need it.
If I went into an internet cafe needing to check my email while travelling, and it was full of kids playing Quake and horsing around, I wouldn't be a particularly happy customer.
Things never really change. I remember the same arguments about video arcardes when I was a kid. The thing is anywhere teens hang around* will attract negative parental/adult attention since the teens will experiment with alot of things that make adults uncomfortable. Gangs, sex, drugs, violence (etc) have always been around and probably always will.
* excluding certain pre-approved places where adults are welcome (eg. sports games) or that seems innocuous (eg. school or music classes)
They are havens for HARD drug deals.
Due to the lack of actual supervision, many of the so called patrons nearly live there.
The cafe's have been the sites of many un-documented drug overdoses, hurriedly covered up by worried owners and PFYs.
They are not usually patroned by the kind of cool, hip, smart folks here on slashdot; even in a metropolitan city like the one I live in.
In summation, these sites are often in DIRE need of some form of actual supervision, the problem is that if Site A is supervised, and Site B is not, then Site A loses customers and shuts down. Human Nature wins again
Hello Kettle,
You, my friend are as black as pitch.
With love, Pot.
they'd all be going to places with bright lights and electronic beepy music, eating little round pills...
oh...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
1. they are only not allowing any new cyber-cafes to open for 45 days, so what! 2. they are restricting access to people under 18 to before 8:00pm on school nights. 3. the victim of the fatal stabbing was 20 yrs old and would not be affected by the new restriction. 4. any time old farts hear of violent crime amongst young persons( defined as any one under 30) in an urban environment they cry "gang", boy do these guys have a clue or what?
How did government ever obtain to the right to tell me how to raise my kids? If I feel my kids are responsible enough to stay at an Internet cafe until 10pm or 11pm or 2am, they should be able to.
This is a presumption of guilt, people. I can understand placing restrictions on people who have already committed crimes---i.e., gang members who've been caught in fights already---but to punish a class of people for the actions of a few is not only immoral, it's unconstitutional.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Take a stand against big government: join the Libertarian Party.
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A man is stabbed in an internet cafe. The response: put a moratorium on opening new cafes, but not on selling more knives. Knives don't kill people, people don't kill people, internet cafes kill people. God help us all.
This is where it gets really funny:
Let's suppose that they could magically enforce this. Do they know nothing about the history of trying to control demand by stifling supply? Heard of a little thing called Amendment 18? "Hey, I know of a great little Clickeasy behind the funeral parlour... I wannanother cuppa Java..."
Semi-seriously, I'm reminded of a curfew in Paisley in Scotland, when all of the nightclubs were instructed to kick everyone out at 2am on the dot. The result? The emergency services quickly learned to dispatch units at about 1:50am to arrive in time for the stabbing frenzy. If gang violence is really an issue here, I don't in all honesty see how this situation would be any different.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The articles are about gang violence spilling over into internet cafes because that's where people are hanging out.
Oh we got trouble, right here in Garden Grove City.
Yeah we got trouble.
Trouble with youth.
Youth.
Youth with a Capital Y
And that rhymes with I
And that stand for Internet!
Most of you are being pretty shallow with your analysis of cause and effect and completely ignoring the psychology at play. All through adolescence the hormones are raging, little teenies begin get pride and egos, they begin to compete.
Its not that these kids will commit violence without a trigger. They might be more prone to responding in a violent manner if they feel threatened or their egos have been insulted. If you bring a bunch of hot head teens together in one location they'll be stepping on each other's egos, especially when competing on say fast paced shootem ups, and tempers flare at a compounded rate.
I'll agree that putting them out on the street isn't the cure, but many of you seem to think that it does nothing to reduce the number of violent incidence between children. For one it disperses them causing the density of egos to be less. For two it takes away a pretty good stimulus for adrenaline to course through the body. Adrenaline, massive egos, hot head kids, all cramped into a box is a volatile mix.
There's nothing really saying here that the video games are causing violent behavior directly. And even kids that are normally nonviolent will defend their pride if someone just whomped um and is talking trash.
Banning kids without adult supervision is pretty common practice in many of the arcades that I've been to. Most of those have been attached to restaraunts though.
This might not be a perfect solution, but it does more than many of you seem to think. When parents don't raise their kids, and you can't make them, what else are you supposed to do? This is about the best a government should be able to do. Its common practice by police to try to disperse hot headed crowds that can turn violent. The city is realising that this is a real problem, they posted a temporary solution, and will likely use those 45 days to try to find a better one. I just don't know if there really is such a thing as a solution that works with hormonally edgy teens.
The city council has also banned are leather biker-type jackets, jackets with insignia of any "crews", sunglasses, pompadour haircuts, and skirts above ankle length.
Malt shakes or burgers may not be served past 7pm.
Buddy Holly or any other type of "Rock and Roll" music may also not be played in places where minors congregate.
Remember AOL Chat rooms where people type in LeeT CaPz about how many crack rocks they do and people they shoot?
And it's because of fat people and smokers that my health insurance rates are what they are. Yet I don't see anyone running for a moratorium on fast food places. Why is that?
I used to live in Huntington Beach which roughly borders Garden Grove. To get any real perspective on this story you really do need to see the place. There is a reason it is called 'Little Saigon'. It is surreal seeing block after block of shops with Vietnamese names. You are far better of speaking French than English if you want to talk to the locals.
The Vietnamese gangs out of that area are peculiarly savage. I was once eating with my wife and son at my favorite Pho place in a big shopping center when a gang fight broke out in the parking lot - next to my car I might add. We were essentially trapped in the restaurant as these thugs beat the crap out of a guy (his friends had fled) on the ground with a baseball bat for twenty miuntes. They all had guns, and ninja weapons (Shuriken, other weird knife things), but they appeared to be enjoying killing him slowly with the bat. Eventually the guy had stopped moving long enough that it was clear he was dead and they left. The cops (despite being called) never came.
Garden Grove is a unique place, and unless you understand the situation there, you can't understand the rules that are laid down. I dounbt that any reporter in Sacramento has a clue.
Hyperbole is the worst thing ever.
I'm seeing alot of people ranting and making sarcastic remarks about video game violence. While a game of counterstrike isn't likely to cause violence on it's own, the numbers of hot-headed individuals does.
Please note that this is a 45 day moratorium on these cafes. Notice how there is a duration as opposed to a flat out standing law. It's a trial period folks. Several violent acts and someone gets stabbed in the head with a screwdriver, you'd expect at least something to happen. There really isn't alot of regulation for these shops either. One local shop has people in there for so long, they lock it up at night and come back in the morning to let the addicted out to go to school.
Garden Grove is an nice place if you're looking for food and such, but it's most definitely not a place to chill at. There's absolutely nothing in the immediate area in terms of entertainment; you'd have to go to Irvine for some entertainment, and to be honest, Irvine blows.
And if you people actually read the damm article (Sacramento Bee), you'll read their major gripe:
"...these establishments cater to minors in a manner such that large numbers of minors, and others, are present in an improperly supervised environment. It has been established that gang members frequent such establishments"
That says alot, don't it?
The officials don't even say anything about the video-game violence. Their primary concern is the volume of unsupervised individuals.
As much as slashdot users are calling this a knee-jerk reaction, I'm seeing alot of typical knee-jerk slashdot reactions.
(Some Anonymous Coward posted the idea in some comment. Now I can't help but try.)
---
In a related story, the federal government imposed this morning a moratorium of 60 days on public education, claiming that schools are "improperly supervised environment".
"This is only a natural reaction to the recurrent violence in public property." said a senator, "After Columbine and other shootings, stabbings and acts of violence, it is time we protect our children from these nests of gangs and criminals. In most schools the children spent the time between classes almost completely unsupervised!".
It is a known fact that most gangs hang out in schools during school times, where they plan their acts of violence against each other and society. Unstable teenagers meet and get to know most of their friends in school, which can lead to the creation of close-knit groups, encouragement of anti-social interests, defiance of authority and even sexual experimentation.
Even more worrying, according to the experts, is the education imparted on teenagers within this dangerous environment.
"Some of the classes include chemistry and physics, and the children are exposed to the use of dangerous chemicals for nefarious purposes. Public schools are potentially training our young to build bombs and other weapons of destruction!" - said a concerned pundit. "Recently, there are even courses in computer science in some schools. Kids are learning to use this Internet and computers beyond the knowledge of their parents. Without supervision, it is clear that they are exposed to be recruited by international terrorists such as the Al-Qaida, or the guy who destroyed that Yahoo.com website last year".
Parents, however, are more concerned with the ideological bias in their childrens education.
"I never really thought much about it. But when I heard the news I picked up some of the history books my two teenage kids have to read for school, and I was appalled! They're full of stories about rebels and anarchists defying authority. I know this Washington fellow and Martin Luther King are supposed to be the good guys, but I don't know if telling my kids that almost everyone rebelled against their government is such a good idea".
Federal officials are considering extending the moratorium indefinitely, until Congress can pass a law that solves the problem permanently, possibly by extending the moratorium indefinitely as well. It is not clear if the new legislation would dissolve private educational institutes or not.
"The sooner we can get our children out of the schools and their evil influence, the better. Only then will we be able to go to work each morning with the certainty that neither knowledge, nor education, will interfere with the normal and innocent activities of our teenagers in the streets".
-----
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
I organize frequently lan-parties (in europe) 200-400 people and i must say that gamers are the most peaceful of the people aged around 16-25 i know.
Never was there a single theft, any more harm done than cuts and bruises (mostly from fiddeling with hardware.), no problems with drug abuse.
I see these people match each other in games (counterstrike, tribes2, unreal tournament, quake{1,2,3),RTCW, strat games, racing sims etc.) After the match they stand up and shake hands laugh and give each other tips on how to improve skill.
- Lord Folken
Lord of cyberKnights
--
visit us: Http://www.cyberknights.ch/gold
Sounds more like a problem with Vietnamese gangs, than cybercafes. Kids who want to beat/kill the f*ck out of each other will gather in lots of places. Arcade halls, shopping malls, theatres, pool halls and cybercafes; the one thing in common is that they are all places where people too young to drink can hang out and socialise.
How many poundings and deaths occur at bars and nightclubs? I used to live above a nightclub in the worst neighbourhood in Vancouver. Every weekend the street below would literally fill up with suburbanite gangstas from Seattle and the little fuckers would brandish pistols and shit all the time. I have no idea how many of my tax dollars were spent on the local police manpower and patrol cars that were charged with watching these jerkoffs *every single weekend* for 3 years.
In fact, this is more an issue of "do you know where your children are and what they are doing?" than anything else.
This is just another "news item" placing the blame on anything but the very people that brought them into the world.
Yea, I live down the 57 from garden grove, and it is a nice place ....
Except it's dominated by asian gangs. The problem isnt the internet cafes, or the games played within. The problem is that the internet cafes are placed in an area known to have a substantial gang problem. Combine: 1) a bunch of young people and 2) an area known to have a high gang population and you're bound to have conflicts. THAT is what happened (just for refernce, I saw the story of the stabbing on the local news the night it happened. definitely gang related, according to everyone involved).
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Someone needs to kill both bush and v.p.
The 45-day period gives the city attorney and city manager time to review case precedent and figure out what they can do. And what they may do (to show they're Doing Something) could include:
- Impact fees for the business owner (it takes more cops to look after gaming-crazed kids!). These might be tied to the business-licensing process.
- Mandatory content filtering ("Didja know they can get pr0n on them there Ninternet screens?!?")
- Zoning changes (no Net cafes near schools, etc.)
This might be about genuine concern, but the PR guy in me says this is more about making a splash in the paper and taking a moment in the resulting flap to figure out a way to squeeze more municipal revenue from a small business."It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
While it may not make sense to forbid the opening of new cyber cafes, obviously it would be hugely more harmful for a cafe to be shut down for 45 days.
"Inventions cannot in nature be a subject of property." - Thomas Jefferson
Oddly enough, he apparently thought that black people could in nature be a subject of property. Goes to show you how much we can rely on the opinions of our forefathers.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
With todays society it figures the disease would be considered the place and not the people, and the cure is to ban the people from the place.... I'd rather a kid at a computer keeping network security professionals on their toes than out on the streets killing. There are already laws against guns, drugs, and violence. It sounds to me like the police need to do a better job of making sure people in places like these are following them rather than restrict their hours, I'm sure the business owners can't be too happy.
Maybe I'm just biased, after all, sitting at a keyboard is likely the only reason I've never been arrested, or in jail, or on drugs.... I say give the kids access to computers throughout the night, just make sure the places are adiquetly policed...
Real "gentile"? What? They're anti-semetic?
+4? Interesting?
Try -1, moronic.
This has nothing to do with civil rights.
this post, though, is -1, offtopic.
the local police authority in Horsens have forbidden minors under 15 to visit an internet cafe "because it gets them into crime."
What is most scary isn't that individuals in authority
got these misconceptions (elder people have always had that about what the youth is doing), but that they have the right to act upon it and make their own local "laws" without it being contested.
Did you stop to think at any moment in your silly rant what kinds of heinous crimes a minor would have to perform to get that penalty?
Please, ignore the poorly worded intro on slashdot, and read the article for yourself. The City Council, responding to a fatal stabbing and other crimes at this Los Angeles suburb's many cyber cafes, placed a 45-day moratorium Tuesday on the opening of any more of the establishments. (emphasis added)
They're not shutting anyone down. They're putting in place an 8pm curfew on weeknights, and asking that the established cafes enforce the standard 10pm curfew the on the weekend.
Please, lets not let this turn into "this city is trying to take the internet away from the people because there are violent video games on the computers". This is a response to gang related stabbings. It has nothing to do with the internet, or geeks, or nerds, or whatever you choose to call yourself. It has everything to do with a rise in the number of cafes in a bad area, and the consequential rise in gang activity at those cafes.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Or you are not aware of the calibre of disaster
Indicated by the presense of a net café in your community
Welllll, ya got trouble my friend
Right here, I say, trouble right here in California City
Why sure I'm a 3D gamer, certainly mighty proud to say
I'm always mighty proud to say it
I consider that the hours I spend with a mouse in my hand are golden
Help you cultivate street sense, and a cool head and a keen eye
'Jever take and try and give an iron clad leave to yourself from a rail gun lava pit shot?
Well, just as I say it takes judgement, brains, and maturity
to score in FPS
I say that any boob can take and frag a guy in a corner
And I call that sloth! The first step on the road to the depths of degradation.
I say first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon
Then beer from a bottle!
And the next thing you know, your son is plain'
for money in a Quake tournament
and readin' about some big out-a-town Romero
. . .
with apologies to Meredith Wilson
Another proud carrier of the $rtbl flag
The beginning of the article seems to be trying to imply some link between violent video games and real-world violence, but the statements of experts in the article don't seem to support that idea.
It looks like the violence has moved from the schools, not from the computer screens, to the parking lots outside the cafes (or, presumably, anywhere else the kids might gather).
It seems to me that the mayor and others involved are imposing these restrictions because they were just recently exposed to the fact that the kids were ditching school, not because of some presumed causal link between video games and violence:
Now that I think about it, the whole darn article is just a bunch of bunk holding together a few useful statements by people who might actually know something. Other favorite parts are the repeated references to race with no apparent point ("umm, by the way, they're all Vietnamese -- draw what conclusions you will, *wink*, *wink*"), and this classic bit:
The "harmless nerds" bit is just funny, and the idea that gangs are somehow not dangerous until mixed with video games is laughable as well.
and onto the internet. And you thought script kiddies were a pain. Maybe I'm getting old, but when I was a minor, the LAST thing that your average "gang" would do is gather to go play on computers.
How times have changed. And as they change, the less reputable members of our society have adapted.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Internet cafe has now turned into a modern day, high tech arcade. They should not have to do anything different from a arcade owner.
Reasonable -- except arcade owners are subjected to the same kind of nonsense. Don't forget the Indiapolis case of trying to ban access to violent video games in arcades.
Every arcade in my hometown has only stayed open six months to a year before it was closed down due to 'gang violence' and 'community standards'. It's the standard knee jerk reaction to any popular teen hangout (other than The Mall, which is protected by tradition and capitalism). This is not something common to Internet Cafes.
It's so hard to find a good game of skeeball in the Washington area... this is why I'm glad we have places like Dave & Busters, which is an adult-oriented arcade designed for the business class sorts.
It's nice to make new laws and decisions, but only the moron makes them without adding the tools to use them. Want to make the streets safer? hire more cops and force them to walk their beat. if there is a trouble area double the cops walking the streets in that area, criminals dont like cops and therefore go elsewhere. today the police are lazy and dont enforce the laws (or even abide by the laws themselves... Most cops I see drive like crazy retards when off-duty, happily breaking traffic laws)
It's time we force the police to do their jobs, we force the city to ensure there are enough police and tools to do their jobs and force them
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
It sounds just like that "mental masturbation" everyone knows about. People try to find someone/something to be the responsible for things that happen. I'm pretty sure that the reason for facts like the teenager smashing an aircraft against the build is much more revolt of being prisioner of a country that, being hypocrit, judges itself as "the country of democracy and freedom".
If your traveling and are looking for a place to check your mail. Your only offering $3.00 total maybe $6.00 if your a slow reader. Whereas the people playing Quake are playing for hours on end. They (The Game Players,) are the true customers of the establishment. Not you. If your pissed. Sorry, but your not the deciding factor in the store owners mind. Your $6.00 is moving on in a day and doesn't carry the same weight to the owner as the 15 year old kid who spends $20 a day there. Of course, I've never equated "Internet cafe" as a "serious service for people who need it."
-raibeart-
- "Yeah man, I tell ya what, man...That dang ol' Internet, man...You just go one there and point and click...Talk about
(a quote from the NYTimes article; with apologies to Meredith Wilson)
Oh, you got trouble, my friend.
Right here, I say trouble right here in Garden Grove
Why, sure, I'm a CounterStrike player
Certainly mighty proud to say,
I'm always mighty proud to say it
I consider the hours I spend with a mouse in my hand are golden
Help you cultivate danger sense and a cool head and a keen eye
Didja ever go an' try an' take an ambush-proof room
by yourself armed only with a Glock-17?
But just as I say it takes judgement, brains and maturity
to kill in a hostile setting
I say that any boob can take and pop a cap in some shlub
And I call that sloth,
the first big step on the road to the depths of degradation
I say first- boiling down the special K,
then mixing up a batch of meth
And the next thing you know your son is playin' for money in a "Kid R0ck" t-shirt
and listenin' to a some big out-o'-town jasper
Hear him tell about LAN parties
Not a wholesome boink party, no,
but an orgy where they sleep down right on the floor
Like to see some droopy goth chick sitting on your poor boy's ****?
Make your blood boil, well, I should say
Now, folks let me show you what I mean
You got one, two, three, four, five, fifty weapons in the game
Weapons that mark the difference between a gentleman and a corpse
With a capital 'C' -- and that rhymes with 'C' -- and that stands for CounterStrike.
Oh, we *really* got trouble.
Citing the large number of school children who frequent such establishments, and the violent content of many of the books available to minors, the Baltimore city council decided that swift action was necessary to stop the endless cycle of violence. Children younger than 18 are no longer allowed to read books themselves, they must be read by an adult supervisor who will censor content as deemed appropriate.
The council has also been alerted to the large number of school children who frequent schools, and the accompanying violence that comes with having so many minors in close proximity. They are considering whether to close all schools, requiring more adults to go to school, or simply outlawing minority, since it seems many of these violent crimes are commited by minors. Stay tuned for further developments.
--David
~~~
Hey, maybe it's a good thing, like a natural cleansing of the dregs of the gene pool! We should lock all those l33t h4x0rs and script kiddies in an internet cafe running ConterStrike, and maybe they'll self-destruct themselves. Maybe then I could at least play a decent game without some 14-year-old punk aimbotting me.
...that there are no on-line posts or interviews along the lines of "When my kids went on a stabbing spree..."
I hate to sound harsh, but this isn't a major problem. Populations follow bell curves. You've got Bundy's and bin Laden's in the first standard deviation, gun- and knive-toting teenagers in the second. The rest of us are in the spectrum that ranges from telemarketers to downright saintly.
No, the world will never be perfect. No amount of law or religion is going to prevent people from finding new and exciting ways of pissing other people off.
Punish the innocent, mourn the guilty.
If all criminals chew gum, then all people who chew gum are criminals!
Or better yet: If a banana is yellow and a wall is yellow, then a banana is a wall and a wall is a banana.
Another example is to ask people to remove their shoes at the airport... it's a good thing the "shoe-bomber" didn't carry the C4 is in underwear or worse, inside his rectum... Can you imagine full cavity searches at airports?
http://www.club977.com/ - The 80's Channel!
Your source for commercial free 80's music!
Internet cafes - the bowling alleys of the new millenium!
I suppose this means that in 20 years, Internet cafes will be full of birthday parties and arcade games and ban coffee.
This just gives the kids a few extra hours to get even more bored--just think of all the stabbings they could accomplish with all this new free time.
/. crowd modding you to Score 5, Insightful really gives me the creeps.
If I read correctly through your sarcasms, you basically say 2 things here:
1. Kids attending these cafes are actually would-be criminals. According to the article, investigators don't even assume that; they seem to think that the cafe was merely a battleground. i.e. gangs just met there to fight, they were not usual customers of the cafe.
2. You then fall into the usual (yet unacceptable) ultimatum/blackmail to society/gov : "give us what we want or we use violence."
I can live with the fact that you posted your comment without thinking of its implications, but the
"The Police Department report establishes that these establishments cater to minors...It has been established that gang members frequent such establishments," the council said in the interim ordinance it adopted Tuesday night.
Whee!
these people have got to be kidding? do they honestly think by locking down the cyber cafes to minors, that this will solve gang violence? In all honesty I think it would be better to have the violence at the cyber cafes. At least then we would know where these kids are, because obviously their parents don't.
Sorry, if you want to stop this sort of thing the parent need to get involved, we've already seen that state enforced curfews don't work. And since when has the government been allowed to regulate how long a business stays open?
This sort of thing just gets out of hand. Instead of adressing the probelems of the gangs and what causes them, we simply eliminate the hang outs, so that they can do what? Find a new hangout to destroy. People need to start waking up and taking charge of their own lives. The more we let the government control our lives, the less freedom we'll have when we actualy want it.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
The whole reason video games get blamed for violence, and not the real causes like driving and bad parents, is because the people who go to the polls are bad parents with road rage. However, there are millions of gamers over 17 who can vote. They (we!) need to vote to show the bureaucrats that we want our harmless hobby untouched.
If you call this NYT article "breathless," then what do you think of the recently posted Slashdot story subtitled "stop-them-before-it's-too-late" ?
Must have been all that violence and gore in Pac-Man and Centapede that led to the same problems in arcades in the early eighties.
Seriously tho, the real problem here is GANG VIOLENCE not GAME VIOLENCE.
-
RA7
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - RWE
it's only a 45-day moratorium on opening new ones.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Then we were told that the city was just regulating a sleezy, crime-inducing, immoral, women-degrading filthy porn shop. We said, "OK, that sounds reasonable, after all we regulate bars, why should a porn shop be treated differently? But no more regulatin', ya hear?"
Now, in my neck of the woods, video stores aren't regulated. But since they seem to be in yours, you (in the you're-all-citizens sense) were told that the city was just regulating [insert inflamatory adjectives to get people to give up more freedom here] video stores. And you said, "OK, those sure are scary words you used, so yeah it sounds reasonable. After all we regulate bars and porn shops, why should a video store be treated differently?"
And now...we're being told that internet cafes are crime-inducing, violent, immoral, gang-fostering, unsupervised, and appeal to certain ethnic groups therefore they need to be regulated. This, dispite the fact that the gangs developed elesewhere, that the conflict was carried over from the school yard, and that there no reason to single internet cafes out. Well...no reason except that we already regulate bars, porn shops, video stores, and whatnot, why should an internet cafe be treated differently?
-sk
Hi!
I'm the father of a little girl with Down syndrome--she has an IQ of 58. I'm sure you'll understand that I become terrified when people speak of "taking control of our genetic future." Given the options, I'll choose to put up with stupid people for the rest of human existence.
(note: I am a middle-class white male. I simply am fucking pissed at the gap in justice between rich and poor.)
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
An Internet cafe opened in Fairfax, VA recently. I looked into it, and thought to myself: Why would I want to go there?
I thought perhaps if you are a hardcore gamer, but then unless you were a *poor* hardcore gamer you already have your own machine. With what you spend to rent their PCs, you could at least afford a PS2 for the cost of a few months of regular cafe visitation.
So then I thought, perhaps it is visited by people who simply want to be "trendy" and do what the in-crowd does just because they say you should do it.
That means teenagers.
Then I thought, why were they drawn there to begin with? And then I thought: NO CONTENT PROTECTION.
So, I was thinking that it would be only a matter of time before the news splashed all kinds of stories about kids going to the cafes to download pr0n. This would be followed by public outcry, government intervention, yada yada yada.
Oh well, can't win 'em all.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If our precious youth have access to such Internet access they will undoubtably explore the boundaries of information, learn how to pilot combat drones with people from around the world, and learn skills that might actually lead to real world jobs.
...
This is incredibly dangerous!
Why, if they start thinking, if they can interact with people from other societies and cultures it will be as bad as when Rock Music became popular in the 1940s and 1950s and society will fall into ruin! As people said then, society will not outlast the decade!
Oh. Wait. Never mind
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Cheers, Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
One of the most popular businesses in Bulgaria is the internet cafe business (in some cities they are more common than grocery stores). However, following an incident where seven 11-12 yr. old kids got crushed in a disco, the government decided to enforce minors out of public places in the midnight. The so called "internet and game clubs" heavily rely on minors for their "night shifts" when they offer rates that kids can afford. Also they have decided to finaly enforce the age of alcohol and tobacco (18), because until know, bars and discos would let in kids even under 12 buy themselves cigarettes and alcohol.
* Bars are *far* worse locations for fights, brawls, property damage, not to mention driving while intoxicated and the related crimes that stem from that--and yet I don't see any moratorium on this recently. Oh, wait, I forgot, they're 2 amendments dealing with something with this.
...so because of some crimes near a few establised busninesses that youths tend to go to, they are closing them down. Thus forcing them to go out into the street or anywhere else most likely with little supervision of adults. Give the kids a place to go and they wont be out committing crimes. If they are sitting in front of a computer playing a game they cant be out doing violent crimes...
Actually, California City did not issue an internet cafe moratorium. As the article states, Garden Grove, a city in California issued the moratorium.
When I first read the title, I thought, "Wow, I didn't know Cal City *HAD* internet cafe's." Oh well, at least the story has it right.
Merde, il pleut encore!
From the few comments I've read on this thread everyone is eager to blame the parents as would I (upon first thought).
I tend to think that people who make the sort of comment that goes like "f-ing parents should spend some more f-ing time with their kids" come from a background where they observed (first hand or second) parents that did this.
The problem with this logic is that sometimes the parents and other family members are busy with work trying to "make a living for their family". You COULD blame parents saying they should take the time out to spend it with the kids but couldn't you really feel good about putting a father and mother in jail for life knowing that they were workign 16 hour days trying to make ends meet?
I wouldn't shift all blame away from parents nor would I place all blame on the government (or the city). I say that instead of shutting down internet cafes, they should be regulated (with some moderation either way). THEN the city government should try creating after school programs.m I think the business have a right to run a business but after school programs have shown to be effective in keeping kids out of trouble.
My thoughts are that a bunch of these kids don't have jack crap to do after school so there's nothing like playing a bit of Counterstrike (at age 23 i find myself doing the same thing). What these kids need are safe alternatives to life after school. That is a big role the government/city needs to take up.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
When something bad happens, blame Canada! Or something like that.
:)
Hmm, not that I read the article, it's standard stuff really, but I feel the need to point out that this is a typically polemic response to violence. After all, you can possibly blame violence on the parents, or the school, etc. It would be slander and no one makes any money. Not very American is it? Now, if one blames the video games... well that's a valuable law suit.
You better step off, or I'll choke you with my IDE cable
I'm a long term resident of Southern Cal. Orange County has a long history of problems with young people. Basically there are tens of thousands of kids living in OC, which is nothing more than a huge suburb, and the kids have nowhere to go and nothing to do. This has nothing to do with Internet cafes per se -- they're just the most recent places where kids convene and problems occur. Every year there are various disturbances: youth night life getting out of hand in Huntington Beach, kids doing illegal drag racing, that stupid high school boys "posse" that was competing for how many girls they each fucked. Trust me, they're not going to get rid of Internet cafes -- the authorities are just worried that teenagers are getting out of control there, like they have other places in OC. If the kids were assembling at ice cream shops, they'd have a curfew on those too.
The Vancouver newspaper ran a story along these same lines a few months ago. Frankly, most of the article was absolute nonsense... (Oooh! You mean they play VIOLENT games there? The horror! Society must be crumbling!) They also said that there had been a gang-related shooting at one. It might seem significant, but it's not really much of a story since there've been like 5 gang related shootings outside of Vancouver in the past month.
I think my personal parental response would be... "Ok, kid. Here's a high speed internet connection, here's a pot of coffee. You're unlikely to get shot in anything less than a virtual way here at home."
~ Leilah
This article details how 2 pizzerias face being shut down due to violence on or around their resraurants. This is accomplished by rescinding the eateries permits. Is it now the shop-keepers duty to act as the police, and would that not expose them to some seriouss liability issues... Note: this does not appear to be a static link and may only work for the day/week of 01/23/01 http://www.projo.com/digitalbulletin/ Link reposted: Weybosset Street pizzerias face possible shutdown PROVIDENCE -- A hearing on whether to permanently shut two downtown pizzerias that Mayor Vincent A. Cianci Jr. says are threats to public safety will resume this afternoon at City Hall. The city Board of Licenses is scheduled to reconvene at 1 p.m. for the hearing on Saki's Pizza House, 199 Weybosset St., and the adjacent Pizza Queen, 215 Weybosset St. The hearing follows a decision last week to immediately shut down both establishments after a police patrolman was attacked by a mob while investigating a fight that left two men shot and one stabbed. Patrolman Sean Carroll suffered a concussion and numerous bruises on his face, head, shoulders and rib cage. He attended yesterday's hearing with his wife and son and testified about the beating.
Pretend I said something meaningful or insightful here.
In the early days of this century, Pool Halls were condemmed as polluting our youth with sin. Anyone remember the Music Man from High School?
In the 30s, it was "Jitterbugging", Swing Dancing, and seditious characters like Benny Goodman and Louis Armstrong that were ruining America's youth.
Back in the 50s violent comic books (Like EC's "Tales of the Crypt Keeper") were blamed for "Juvenile Delinquency". A popular book "Seduction of the Innocent" by Frederic Wertham caused the creation of the Comics Code Authority which pretty much censored news stand comics for 30 years.
Back in the halcyon late 70s and 80s, similar claims were made about Video Game Arcades. XTC jokes aside, Pac Man didn't ruin American youth.
Same old denial. My kid isn't bad, it's that damn (fill in blank) that's making her bad. To paraphrase Ann Landers: Wake up. Smell it.
My father is a blogger.
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If the games are cause for concern then the internet cafe should use internet terminals that do not have the computing power to play such games. The Windows Policy Editor and Windows NT/2K/XP security is not enough to prevent this. Why wouldn't they do this? Simple: Internet terminals have lousy versions of internet browsers and cost nearly as much as real computers.
Kris
Kriston
I read in Colin Wilson's "A History of Murder" that violent crime is on the decline, but I don't have a copy with me at the moment, so I can't quote.
Christina! Bring me an axe!
They sell coffee and donuts. So cops are always coming in. This seems to keep things under control. And, this being SF, where even low-end restaurants are good or they close in two months, they have decent food.
"Clickeasy"! Ha hah ha!
Right - I tend to agree. What purpose does a ban of about 1 1/2 months on new Inet cafes really serve, in the overall picture? They've got to have another motive, and the motive is most likely to A) raise awareness that these places are breeding violence, and B) to make it easier to place a permanent ban. (It's always easier to suggest the people extend an existing rule, by showing some slanted evidence that the temp. rule did some measure of good. It looks worse to slap down an outright ban....)
Actually, I find it hard to believe violent gangs are really so attracted to coffee and computer games/geeks. In reality, they'll just move along to some other random facility that lets minors in....
Those cafes attract asian gang members which is why the city counsel got involved.
-AC in Garden Grove, CA
Where does the government get off saying kids can't play games after 8? It seems to me the issue here isn't that they are playing games, its that they are playing violent games. The games people use, in conjunction with violent movies, as a scapegoat for the retards of society who go around shooting each other. I'm sure ALL of the hippest gangs frequent cyber cafes...
All I'm trying to say, is that this is not the governments place. This is where the parents should make decisions. If some kids are getting good grades and staying out of trouble then more luck to you. The thing that bothers me is the 'school night' thing. I'm 17 and I don't see the problem with me going out and playing some halflife on a 'school night'. Especially since I don't have classes that start until 3 hours after everyone else because its my senior year! These laws are understandable in some cases, but they shouldn't blanket everyone under 18.
At 17 I live on my own, support myself, pay rent, buy food, and whatnot on top of going to school. If I want to go play some fucking quake where the hell do people get off telling me I'm not responsible enough to? The truth is that I'm busy working and sleeping, but if one night I say screw it, I want to frag a couple hundred people before I go to sleep...
The governments of the country keep passing these laws that target minors. The problem is that there is a BIG difference between an 8 year old and a 17 year old, and sometimes the difference between a 17 and 18 year old is about a week. The laws shouldn't blanket all minors, and in our age where kids are smarter and work more at younger ages maybe people should rethink what being a minor really is and how appropriate the ages they choose are.
The very thing is not surprising, except the fact that it happens in California- the state where the relative numbers of both IT pros and youth are comparatively high. /., just go with Libertarian Party, (www.lp.org), ASFAR (www.asfar.org), or we'll get what we deserve.
The answer? The politicians perfectly understand that regardless of all stupidities they do on the day of any elections these groups would either stay at home or would uncoditionally vote for Dems or some special interests proxies like Ralph Nader who is actually not smart enough to get it that he's just a special interests proxy.
They got right the same mentality as Wal*Mart- they work to make their average customer happy. They go after the votes of aging obsessive- compulsive Boomer control freaks.
They prohibit because it sells well, and never mind what would go next.
So, folks here on
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"...it's about a city legislating a business. It happens all the time with Bars, Porn Shops, Video Stores and whatnot, why should an arcade be treated differently?"
...it's about a city legislating a business. It happens all the time with Bars, Porn Shops, Video Stores and whatnot, why should a Church, a YMCA or a Library be treated differently?
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
A damn good thing the government is stepping in, seeing as how the parents stepped out a long time ago....
Put the blame where it belongs.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
From what I read about your comment's parent; the author was stating that more regulation was *NOT* the answer. You seem to have missed his point.
Although I agree with your ending point, that parents need to wake up and take responsibility for the little horrors that they've brought into the world; it doesn't belong as a responce of the parent post that simply stated that new laws shouldn't be enacted when there's no *REAL* change in the system (eg. Arcades by any other name work the same).
"One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."
- Mick Travis, "If..."
I don't care what age these stupid gang wanna be bitches are. This is nothing an old fashioned public burning wounldn't fix.
It's sad that these little fucks are messed up because they didn't have a good up bringing, but we can't fix that because it is in the past. What we can do is worry about the present and PUBLICLY BURN THEM IN THE STREETS! BURN IN HELL YOU FUCKING GANG WANNA BE BASTARDS!!!!
The law as a form of behavior modification. It probably works for some people.
When I was a 17 year old kid I would buy beer all the time. Of course, I had a full beard and looked to be in my mid 20's.
I was always careful to never get caught. And I never drank and drove because a friend of mine died that way. But I wasn't scared of the law, I was scared of the beating that mom would give to me if she caught me drinking. Mom would have left scars if she had ever caught me drinking under age. If I had gotten arrested and Mom came to pick me up, I would have asked to stay in prison so my mom couldn't get to me.
And I thank my mom for being such a strict parent. I believe that evolution gave us pain receptors for a reason and that if we want to prevent children from performing certain actions then we should stimulate the pain receptors to build up pathways in their brains in order to prevent them from performing certain actions.
There is a difference between abuse and discipline. Discipline is done because you love a child and they did something wrong that you don't want them to do again. It shouldn't leave a mark that lasts for more than a few minutes.
Abuse is done for the abusers needs and no change in behavior on the part of the victim will prevent the abuse. Abuse is wrong. Discipline is good.
Sounds to me like these children are abusing each other and need some discipline to prevent that from happening anymore.
-- Never make a general statement.
The currently conservative US Supreme Court has very little trust in youth and loves denying rights that people over the age of 18 get from the constitution.
In the Tinker case in 1969 the liberal courts said that students do not give up their rights to free speech when they go to school, but later in Bethel School District v. Fraser in 1986 courts ruled that students could be suspended for "lewd and indecent speech."
Also in the case of T.L.O the courts ruled that students do not have the same rights protecting them from search and seizure that adults do.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal, Clerks
Nice insights.
"Frankly this is probably not a big epidemic or 'problem' at all -- the media just loves to focus on it and the politicans love to have 'issues' that they can fight."
As I said in an earlier post in response to this guy, the papers are sensationalist about the whole thing. That's how they unfortunately make their money. Garden Grove is has a fairly high crime rate, higher than Anaheim or Santa Clara, but lower than many other nearby cities including Long Beach.
"The relevance of this in light of the 'big picture' is small. There will always be violent kids just as there will always be violent adults. Just because one group of violent kids commits a crime does not mean that all kids are violent and thus must be regulated by the state (think about it, it is commonly *percieved* that 'adult' violent crime is committed at night time. If the government responded by putting a curfew on the nation we would be pissed).
I absolutely agree.
"With these in mind, you can see how the public's perception of 'the issues' around violence and death is completely warped. This 'internet cafe' thingy is probably somthing completely blown out of proportion, a great political biline, an exciting news story but nothing more then the public using kids, the internet and violent games as a scapegoat for their ignorance and mis-understanding.
As for the line "parent's just don't understand" that is the truth in this case. They don't understand how the world has changed since they were kids and most of all they don't understand technology (aka internet). Their reactionary tendancies in light of this change makes thim spit out this legislative garbage."
As I also point out in my other post, the legislation enacted is minimal, and other legislation is pending a "closer look" by the Mayor and others concerned. Even the policeman interviewed points out that this incident was an "escalation" from probable previous violence or conflict. These kinds of things get all blown our of proportion anyway, but it's a shame to see it happen amongst the "thinking" community as well.
"There is no possible reason to ever kill another human being."...
sorry I disagree, as a former service man, and retired police officer I can think of many VALID reasons to kill another human being. Luckily I've never had to do it, but I feel fully prepared to shoot to protect someone else. I also feel capable of regreting such a decision but still making it...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Are these people stupid? its not like they can even tell how old you are... Big Brother is coming, even the inside of your ass is not safe, so run and hide.
Just like the Porn sites.. how can they tell if you are really 18 or not?
Do you know what the problem with Texas is?
Answer:
Texans
If you wish to view paradise, simply look around and view it. There's nothing to it.
where are the parents?
Surely you mean where is the parent. Most of the country thinks that for a child to have parents (plural) is an outmoded concept. You can't disagree with that, because then you're a horrible person who doesn't think that single parents are perfect saints/victims who never go to the toilet. For a variety of reasons, California is at the forefront of parental minimization.
"The Sacramento Bee is reporting that the City Council of Garden Grove, California has issued a 45 day moratium on internet cafes following a fatal stabbing and several other crimes, with the justification that internet cafes are "improperly supervised environments" that very large groups of minors frequent daily (mostly to play games),"
You mean like arcades?
"and that a lot of gang violence has cropped up because of this."
Oh, just like in all those arcades, for the past 20 years...
I don't think many of you have actually been to one of the "Internet cafes" that the article refers to. That term is actually a misnomer, since they have nothing "cafe-ish" about them; most kids that know what they actually are and may have been there call them "PC rooms." And I'm almost positive that this phenomenon is only occuring in Southern California (maybe the Bay Area, too).
It has a lot to do with where they are located and the type of demographic that it attracts. If you go to any one of these PC rooms in Southern California (be it a Los Angeles suburb or somewhere in San Diego County) you will immediately notice that 90% of the people in there are Asian-Americans. Why? Because the PC room business model was popularized by Korean entrepreneurs who brought the idea over from Korea. And don't take this as a racist comment, but Koreans that may nor may not have been born here tend to stick together and create cliques in whatever social setting they are in (I myself am a 21 year old Chinese-American and went to a high school in the suburbs of Los Angeles and had > 50% Asian student population). I was born and raised in Southern California and see it all the time. So, what ends up happening is that these kids (who usually go to play either Counter-Strike or Diablo 2) get drawn to these places because their friend's cousin's brother opened up a new PC room and can offer them a discount or something. For whatever reason, there ends up being large groups of Asian-Americans at these PC rooms. Now, anyone from the Los Angeles area that has lived here for a few years knows that Asian gangs are just about as bad as the "Crips," "Bloods," and "13th Street" gangs that everyone sees on TV. Since many of them don't have anything to do any given night (they used to hang out at pool halls frequently, and still do) they go to a PC room for cheap entertainment.
What ends up happening then, when a large group of teenagers and 20-somethings come together? People talk trash over Counter-Strike all the time -- now just imagine that in real life. They do it. I've seen it. I went to a PC room once with 3 of my friends to play in a tournament, only to be discriminated against because we weren't Korean! We beat the living hell out of the last clan, only to have the Server Admin/Store Owner come over and pull some lame rule changes on us so his little cousin and his friends would win. It may be an isolated case, but an example regardless. The 2 or 3 other times that I've gone to a game room I've seen pretty much the same thing happen -- guys' tempers flare after someone accuses another of camping or playing cheap, and a near fight breaks out outside. It was so stupid and immature that I haven't been back to one in over a year (plus, I can play for free on a better machine at home =D).
As far as the regulations go, I'm all for them. Why? Because you have a situation where people are playing some very competitive games and have wildly fluctuating levels of testosterone (in addition to some other socio/psychological issues that I won't even start on) and fights are more prone to break out than, say, at a pool hall (where the game is much more mellow). They even bet on games to increase the stakes. It's stupid. Force them to go find something a little more calm to do.
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So, if you could give your daughter a pill that contained a retrovirus-like agent that would fix all of the genes in her body in place, you'd object to that?
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Remember the whole Dungeons & Dragons = Satanism thing? [zipped mp3 - Dr. Demento]
For one, while you are a minor, your parents can legally do things to you as your guardian which could not be done legally between other citizens. negative physical reinforcement(i.e. spanking) is legal in America, and there is a general suspension of privacy rights.
This same set of rules extends to schools, but only to a limited degree. Video cameras and other intrusive security measures in high schools are legal because the school is allowed to act as the parent- to a degree.
And then there are laws specific to youth which restrict various rights of free expression and other things, such as laws preventing you from getting tatoos/piercings until you are 18. These laws are not usually US laws, but rather state-to-state variations.
Further, curfew laws are a restriction of general rights which would obviously never be placed on the adult population. These laws are passed by the same reasoning as those in the article- it is considered to be for the safety of both the minors and the general population. It's a cop out answer, but whenever laws for minors are questioned, this argument wins the case for keeping them in place.
Witholding names from the media when is actually a legal protection of youth. If an individual under 18's name is ever printed in a paper or mentioned on the TV news, it is either in violation of that right(which is more likely- I've seen this often be the case), or the parents and the minor have agreed that it is for the best to release the information to the media.
So, minors don't have the same rights, but they do have rights. Like I said, this particular case is saved by the idea that it is for the 'safety of the minors and the general population.'
"Anonymous cowards are just K-whores afraid of their accounts being modded down." - Bob the O (me)
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That's maybe the damn funniest thing I've seen, here in River City, except perhaps the Clustered Urns. I'm only 23... -K
Now I laught at you yankis, and don't come back laughing about the sociopolitical situation on other countries such as Argentina.
Do you still call that a Democracy?
--- "pero toda poesía es hostil al capitalismo"