Slashdot Mirror
Requiring Software Freedom
An Anonymous Coward writes: "CNET is carrying a story about the increasing momentum that Open Source software and 'Software Libre' are gaining in Latin and South America and Europe. A certain company from Redmond WA USA is mentioned several times in the article as the impetus to free foreign governments from certain onerous licensing agreements (not to mention the cost savings involved). It is interesting that some of these governmental entities are actually requiring the use of Software Libre, not just encouraging it. Maybe it's time to visit Rio?"
China has insisted on using Linux on all of its government servers.
Ironic, isn't it, that America's poster child of oppression and dictatorship chooses to use Slashdot's poster child of freedom and democracy to run their systems, eh? I doubt that they'll be doing things in the same light as the other countries mentioned here.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
.... makes the vast majority of their ca$h from US and Western Europe. I wouldn't be suprised if they are doing this as a PR move. It could be used to bolster their US case, i.e. look how we are helping the 3rd world, etc.
If there is something that both the FSF and I agree upon, it is that the production of software needs to be justified in terms of benefit to society. This presents a certain amount of difficulty. Benefit to society is a slippery concept and not an easily measurable quantity -- unlike tractor production. In addition, since Adam Smith, the best means of deriving that benefit are not necessarily direct. Which brings me to the subject of economics.
Before starting any discussion of economics, I need to pin down what I mean by ``benefit to society''. Underlying the attitude of this essay is the belief that a computer is just a machine, and the benefit of a machine is derived from its use to do things. From this point of view, the main benefit to society that software brings is that it allows users to run programs to do things that they regard as useful or entertaining. There is a clear economic component to this attitude: benefit to society can be regarded as the production of programs that users want to use. This benefit is hedged about usual common-sense provisions, of course; it's hard to argue that virus production is of benefit to anyone other than security experts.
An alternate view regards computers as ends in themselves. I'm someone who enjoys theoretical computer science and also enjoys tinkering with my systems for the pure love of it. So this view is something that I espouse in deed, if not in word. This point of view is of benefit to society in the same way that science, art or literature is; it expands our horizons and makes us mentally richer and more cultured human beings. This view is perfectly reasonable -- I also think that it is a view underlying many of the attitudes of the FSF. However, in terms of wider benefit to society, it is likely to be eclipsed by the purely utilitarian considerations of the economic viewpoint.
No way. It must be april fool's day.
Whoo hoo!
What I find most interesting about this Software Libre idea as proposed by some of the legaslative bodies involved is their definition of it. They seem to want to avoid the "Open Source vs. Free Software" rhetoric that we've been seeing recently--but even more interestingly, it seems that they're combining the two key factors the Free Software and Open Source communities expouse:
Firstly, the freedom to do what you will with the software. Who wants their government's (and by extension their) rights to use software restricted by a multi-national headquartered in another country?
And Secondly, the price is right. I'd rather see my tax dollars go towards quality software and support, -and- other services, than into MS's pocket for proprietary software that doesn't work (anyone remember Russia's lost nuclear materials? thanks MS SQLServer.)
Beware the Whyte Wolf.
With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels...
I wonder what true effects this will have on the quality and quantity of free software.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Guess what - the US government is also beholden to Redmond for a lot of software. Perhaps they should follow this lead. Yeah, right...
No thanks.
Forcing people to use software by law is worse than anything Microsoft has ever done.
microsoft is just jealous. GREAT news for linux once again
Nature of the Beast, baby.
I'm not looking to troll or start a flamewar here (I use Free software every day), but if one is required by law to use Free software, doesn't that represent a loss of freedom? Isn't freedom of choice important as well?
Arica as well is fast becoming Linux Country.
A combination of a fair amount of old hardware still in use, and the expense of software... typical licence (Win 9x) costs more than the minimum monthly wage.
Compound this with the fact that there are many enterprising minds in Africa... and you have a team of hackers to rival any in the 'First World1
Live today. Tomorrow will cost a lot more!
Why doesn't the Government of Brazil just pirate Windows?
If they respect drug licensing laws, why should they respect software ones?
C'mon, give up! We all know there is no viable business model in running a foreign country!
;)
.. nations entrenched in capitalism forget that domestic development must almost always be sparked by the government. This is hard to do for many governments, since they have little money to begin with. Anything that saves money for governments in these types of countries is good, as they can turn around and use the money they saved to spurn domestic market development and growth. (At least somewhat .. unfortunately, one of the goals of all these free trade talks are to prevent countries from being able to award contracts to domestic companies preferrentially in order to encourage growth in the domestic economy.)
Or at least that's what Steve Balmer might say.
On a more serious note, woohoo. This is exactly what we need
"Old man yells at systemd"
Back in the 1920's or so, United States companies used the US Marines to crush worker rebellions and strongarm countries for profits. This is where the term banana republic comes from. Anyway, everyone keep an eye out for Microsoft hiring a mercenary army away from Shell Oil or something... or convincing investors that open-source software isn't as secure as M$ software, and they shouldn't invest in countries that don't use M$, the prefered OS of the Free World!.
Totally off topic but informative rant by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.
"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. "
[This is the closest I've ever come to FP]
Here in Taiwan, I don't think cost is as much of a factor, given the high rate of Windows piracy (even, I suspect, in government offices). As an example, when I recently went shopping for a new home system, I explained to the sales critters that I didn't want Windows, because I was planning on loading Linux and didn't want to pay the Microsoft tax. The response was always the same: You might as well take it, since it's FREE! Not a single store I visited loaded legal copies of Windows, for the simple reason that razor thin profit margins don't allow it.
Add to that the Chinese mindset which doesn't quite grasp Western concepts of intellectual property: the attitude here is that if I purchased (not 'licensed', Western-style EULAs not withstanding) a Windows CD, it's mine to do with as I wish -- including installing it on every machine in the office. You can begin to understand why Windows piracy rates in China are estimated at 95% or higher.
Lee Kai Wen
Taiwan, ROC
They'll start switching over to something else.
A couple years ago I was a sys admin for a congressional office. We had installed a new web-based version of our CMS software. It was buggy as well, half of it because of IE's instability and unwillingness to integrate with WordPerfect and the other half because of the poor programming. It was frustrating to use and we sent numerous bug reports to the company to no avail. Other offices were having the same problem.
When did the House start taking action against said company? Not long after the House Leadership bought the software, the House tech side finally started making legal noises and fixes finally got made.
So when Dennis Hastert's office or Tom Daschle's office starts getting really fucked over by MS, they'll switch to something else, change the tech guidelines and soon the rest of the House and Senate will follow.
Hmm...I've never thought of it like this before. Micros~2's relationship with many governments is a lot like OPEC is to the US. The US is heavily dependant on OPEC for petrolium, and OPEC could wreak havoc on our economy and our ability to defend ourselves. Micros~3 could essentially do the same things to a foreign power, and it would take weeks for a nation to recover if Micros~4 decided to cancel services to a nation. The upcoming technologies Micros~5 wants to deploy would make this even easier. Think about it...
-- Grow up and use mutt.
Wow! I never realised how much cuter my martian looks in KDE... I've been seeing it in Opera (company policy...), it's much sweeter in Konqy... Huzzah for open source.
I work in a small-med size office, and have been advocating Linux here forever, claiming it would cut costs and is more reliable. Why do they always refuse? Training. Even if it is 100x more reliable, if it breaks, no one but me can fix it, and that's not good enough.
We should continue to advocate Linux in the workplace like this, but this advocation should also reach out to schools. A 2 year tech support course should include Linux as well as Windows. That, at least, would be a real victory.
As it is, Linux staff costs more than Windows (at least here in Vancouver), but if training was more popular, only then could Linux be truly "cost-effective"
The quote from Stallman at the bottom of this article made me laugh:
Those are the main obstacles to satisfying the software needs of humanity.
Software needs of humanity...a nice idea except for the fact that most of humanity doesn't have access to a computer!
is that my government finally starts supporting Linux Certification Programs via their unemployment benefits packages to (re)train adults.
It's a shame. Programming and Linux is used and offered in highschools, but adults who need retraining, reintegration can't get it at affordable prices.
Hopefully SuSe kicks some slow bureaucrats in their behinds to make them understand, hopefully IBM and Siemens help them with it.
And of course governments should demand to use GPL software and Linux in the public sector whereever it is possible. The UNDP should support it as well and hopefully will do so.
End of story.
Now that the tech industry has declined and much of the recent boom has been shown to have been based on overinflated expectations and pure bullshit, it will be more difficult for proprietary software advocates to argue that the economy is driven by software sales. (Of course, that notion was laughable from the outset, but there's no use in shouting over the gold rush.) This is therefore an excellent time to push for adoption of free software by businesses and governments.
There is a sense in which software drives the economy: good software makes it possible for people to do more work and therefore be more productive. Commercial software and free software alike contribute to productivity, but only free software does so without imposing burdensome licensing costs which drain profits and therefore reduce the amount of liquid assets available for reinvestment. One wonders what the Fortune 500 could have accomplished with the billions they've paid Microsoft in recent years if they'd had that money to spend on new business ventures.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
The article makes a strong point regarding the difficulty of running this software in existing agencies. The trained user/administrator base is just not there.
Being a former state employee, I can just imagine the Governor or Legislature mandating the use of Open Source software. Consultants like myself will make even more money off SG than we already do now.
From a selfish point of view, by all means go for it and require Open Source software. I'll do OK. As an uninterested but informed taxpayer, I'd be a little leery about it, however.
I'm a firm believer of using the right tools for the job. Using Open Source is most definitely a viable option in many environments. Requiring it when a commercial option is more cost effective just does not make good business sense. (And there are places where commercial is most definitely better.)
Do a cost/benefit analysis of Microsoft Server software vs Linux. Doe any else think Microsoft has shot themselves in the foot with this statement?
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
Can't afford it? Don't worry, the first one's on me...
After all, that's the business model for software, isn't it? (shareware, etc) I am not saying Microsoft is evil -- they are doing what is good business for them, and to someone who does not have money, that may *seem* evil. But... it's not. It's just the capitalist economy at work, folks...
So... I think these countries are smart... They see the large hook in the eventual future... IT doesn't have to be just Microsoft -- it can be any first-rate, high-priced software company. If you bite now, you will be hooked in and be forced to pay high license costs forever... It's a good business decision -- if you don't have money, it's much better to use free software. If you really want to make it a point, you make it a law.
Honestly speaking, Linux and other free software works just fine. Give 3 complete newbies 3 different boxes (Mac, Win, Linux)... I've found that they adapt just as quickly/slowly, and the bundled software on each platform works quite well for all of them. (the only time you get messed up is in opening Win stuff on other platforms, but that's really not anyone's fault but M$) Forcing free software on a country is a rather interesting tactic, but it sure seems a lot better than being locked down to an expensive license contract -- especially if I don't have money to begin with...
- End users - can't beat the price, and Linux with KDE, etc. is fine for a naive user, if they get a little startup help
- Programmers working as consultants and for in-house development - a time/money saver because of code re-use
- Government and large organizations - no license costs, often easier install because of not having to mess with license servers, etc.
Let's face it: Windows 2000 is a great OS, and there is a lot of good (often Open Source!) software for Windows 2000 (forget about previous versions!), but Linux is catching up fast.As an author, I am also getting into Open Content, largely because of a desire to "give something back" to society. (I just released a web book on Java and AI at www.markwatson.com - pardon the plug :-) )
Best regards,
Mark Watson
The Puerto Rican government is married to Microsoft. I work for a Linux company here and we have such difficulty fighting the culture of colonialism. EVERYTHING from the States is better and everything from anywhere else is crap. Yet because of the recent nationalistic surge with the navy bombing of Vieques you'd think the current Pro autonomous government (Partido Popular Democrático) would be trying to extricate itself from its dependence on Microsoft... well, THAT tune hasn't changed.
Puerto Rico is a relatively poor island that could use some common sense and to stop dumping its money into MS's coffers. I'd prefer more decent roads, clean water, and less than pathetic public education to paying MS more dinero.
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
The cradle of the new wave of laws mandating free software appears to be Brazil, where four cities--Amparo, Solonopole, Ribeirao Pires and Recife--have passed laws giving preference to or requiring the use of "software libre." Other municipalities, states and the national government have mulled similar legislation.
So now...is their BSA (Brasillian Software Agengy, maybe?) going to send out nasty form letters demanding that they cease and desist using licensed software?
You're using her as bait, Master!
I'm surprised that Italy didn't just announce that Microsoft's copyrights were no good there.
Milo
LA countries are moving quickly into the double whammy of currency crises and recession. Argentina and Brazil represent huge ecnomic problems. What better reason to not export cash out of the country on increasingly poor terms, eg. dollars when local currency is dropping like a stone. So the natural consequence is to look for ways to keep the money in-country and if possible, not spend it at all. This way LA countries can not only save cash but can help prop up local employment by breeding a cadre of support personnel.
Sure, let's all go...never mind the fact that they have a seriously out of control murder rate. I think I read that last year there were somewhere around 11,000 murders just in Rio.
Any takers?
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
"In Europe, where numerous bills and resolutions have been introduced, local, state and federal governments spent $7.8 billion on software in 2000"
yowza! How much could Americans have their taxes lowered if we pushed our government to use free software? I can understand using licensed software when no free application of equal quality is avaliable, but many branches of government can be as productive using the free stuff.
OTOH, many government apps are home grown, and are therefore not costing taxpayers any licensing fees. The question is what proportion of software in American government is taking money out of our pockets, and how much can be replaced with software that works for free?
As I understood the article. The way the laws are written require that an open source version of a product be given preference to a closed source. It does not say "You must Use Linux over Microsoft" or for that matter Linux over FreeBSD/NETBSD/FlavoroftheweekBSD or any other open source os. If you look at it carefully you wil see that the main purpose appears to be financial as well as security.
SOFTWARE LIBRE!!!!
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
It seems you're not looking at the article either. :)
From the first paragraph of the article:
A recent global wave of legislation is compelling government agencies, and in some cases government-owned companies, to use open-source or free software unless proprietary software is the only feasible option.
And further on in the article:
The cradle of the new wave of laws mandating free software appears to be Brazil, where four cities--Amparo, Solonopole, Ribeirao Pires and Recife--have passed laws giving preference to or requiring the use of "software libre." Other municipalities, states and the national government have mulled similar legislation....
Elsewhere around the globe, Florence in June passed a motion mandating the use of "software libero" when feasible. A handful of smaller Italian municipalities, including Pavia, have passed similar motions. This isn't about restricting the freedom of an individual to use whatever software they want. It is about government setting policies for its agencies, just like any company is free to dictate what software is used within the company.
Interestingly RMS has this to say about the recent wave of new laws:
Activists and programmers, while they welcome the free-software-only initiatives, say they're holding out for more sweeping legal protections for their work.
"These laws are not the kind of help we most ask for from governments," said Stallman. "What we ask is that they not interfere with us with things like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, with software patents, with prohibitions on reverse engineering that enable companies like Microsoft to make proprietary data formats and prohibit our work. Those are the main obstacles to satisfying the software needs of humanity."
It seems that he partially agrees with you. At least this isn't something that he is actively pushing for. All he wants is the freedom to produce software. Seems reasonable, doesn't it?
Lasers Controlled Games!
While I completely support the use of open source software where its use if beneficial, I cannot support a law requiring or even advocating open source use. One important component of freedom is choice - and the choice of open source or no open source regardless of merit is in the wrong direction. Admittedly, they have a clause allowing for commercial software where no free solution exists. It's a back door large enough to drive a truck through presently.
Companies and governments should just make decisions based on their best interests. If open source is cheaper (including the cost of support), then go open source. If Microsoft solution's is cheaper and more effective, I'd say pick Microsoft. It's incredibly simple, and truly libertarian. My university makes this decision every day with extensive use of Linux and open source for a number of applications. And the university computer store pushes Microsoft like you wouldn't believe.
How would you like it if a law was passed restricting the government to the only truly open license - BSD? GPL or commercial products could only be used if there is no BSD equivalent.
My government does what I and the majority my fellow citizens want it to do, I don't know about yours. But if you are so just darn scared of your own government, then change the way you choose it, and change the way they make and impose their laws on to you in a way that they loose your trust of being treated fairly.
My government has permission from me to take the freedom to demand that Free or Open software should be used. How about that much of freedom ? Directly given to my government, by the people for the people.
Maybe it's time to visit Rio?
Don't assume that better policy in one area necessarily translates into better policies in all other areas.
Rio's murder rate is 61 per 100,000. That's ten times as high as the United States in general, and more than twice as high as Flint, Michigan, which is widely regarded as one of those places that normal human beings just don't voluntarily enter.
The Free Software movement?
That is Free as in "you're forced to use our software by our free and open government"?
Come on, it's not free if there is a law that says you have to do it. Being forced to use Open Source over M$ smacks of the Floyd song "Sheep":
"Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as you're told
Get out of the road if you want to grow old."
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
While one cannot pooh-pooh the vast economical savings of using 'alternative' operating systems to mickysoft's, I suspect that some of the reasons may also be cultural.
... which may not always be left-to-right, top-to-bottom, red-white-n-blue the way God intended it, US of A type approach.
Certainly, one can buy the version of the MickySoft OS product. However, with Linux, one can alter it so it not only speaks one's language, but so it reflects the way one is raised to think
Another thought is that it could be attractive because it is easier to get talent from a variety of people in a variety of countries, without all the hassle of regulation that encumbers even the most generous employer (especially here in the U.S.).
It may also have to do with the fact, and I'll need some help from you foreigner types, that us Americans want our individual PC's on our individual desks in our individiual cubicles as opposed to some X thingie who's processor ias a II instead of a III after it (unless of course you are a geek god, who is then granted a IV from the pointy heads in those aquarium like offices).
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Saving money is just one reason to switch to software libre. They also want to break away from corporate control. When you use Microsoft products, you're locked in their upgrade cycle, and you have to adapt to their whims. If you use products which are not controlled by a single entity, you have greater freedom to use the software as you like, and to change it as you like to your own needs.
"Technology should compete on its merits in a free market."
:)
Gosh, he won't last long at Microsoft thinking like that
I think the future of OpenSource and FreeSoftware lays in the hands of those who live in developing countries.
Often these are people who live in active comunities with the spirit of working together to achieve a common goal. This sense of comunity lends itself strongly to the goals of the FreeSoftware and OpenSource movements.
In the next century we may see a role reversal where the developing nations of south america may serve as a model for the rest of us, as opposed to european and north american economics acting as the model.
-Marvin
It is interesting to me, perhaps a contradictory policy, Latin American nations see the advantages of free software and the impetus to remain free of restrictive licensing agreements and, yet, these very nations may (unwillingly?) institute DMCA-type measures on their populous pursuant to the Free Trade Agreement of Americas (FTAA) --- measures very restrictive on technological developments and activities related to software.
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
And when it deals with individual citizens, I do not take it as Constitutional for the US government to require that those citizens be
subservient to Bill Gates.
Of course, I do believe that the Constitution is supposed to restrict the US
government, which is rather an unusual opinion
these days.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
If the trend from the last three months continues, we will soon be seeing Brazil overtake the US in terms of new registrants.
Just one thing: Brazilians speak Portuguese, not Spanish. And in Portuguese, "free" is "livre", not "libre".
Having said that, I strongly support this kind of law. Not for the budget part alone, but for matters of freedom and self-sufficiency. Brazil also has a very good Linux company (Conectiva), which is doing a fine job in supporting Linux.
Or was it boha? My HS soccer coach was from Brazil.
Portugese speakers please fix up:
Ayo so vagine - You are an a**h***?
Daneles - Trip,hack him?
The obvious connection between Brazil (and Latin America) and Rio de Janeiro, while natural, is not very helpful to the would-be Linux tourist in Brazil.
Most of the present key Linux places are located elsewhere. What follows is an incomplete list of the major places to contact about the state of Linux in Brazil:
- Conectiva is the largest South Amrican Linux distribution. Largely based in Red-Hat, they have made a large effort to translate lots of applications interfaces into Portuguese and Spanish. Conectiva distribution is today one of the top Linux distributions in the world. Their main office is in Curitiba, a southern, beachless city.
-Popular Computer Project, an under U$200 computer using a stripped down version of KDE (containing basically Konqueror, KOffice and the supporting apps). This is being developed by the University of Minas Gerais, Minas Gerais being one of the few brazilian states without direct access to the sea.
Projeto Software Livre, the project of the state of Rio Grande do Sul government (the southernmost brazilian state), to promote the use of free software in the state. This was the most publicized government project in this area, and the first time a state government declared anything about free software in Brazil.
As a sad note, today I got the news that the Federal government buying a large number of computers to brazilian schools throughout the country. They will be buying only Windows machines.
Remember last time a country had the guts to throw out U.S companies, being tired of working as underpaid plantation labor for U.S fruit barons? U.S us still upholding a strict trade embargo against that country.
Good luck that Billy Boy has gotten himself into a bit of a jam with the DOJ, otherwise we'd seen the Marines setting up a beach head on Ipanema by now.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
Slashdot readers, in my experience, know that Microsoft software is of poor quality, but don't really understand how poor the quality really is.
For example, Microsoft Windows has a file called the registry (SYSTEM.DAT) that often becomes damaged and unrepairable. Below is a message copied without change from a Microsoft error display. As you read it, please keep in mind that registry damage is extremely common.
Registry Repair Results
Windows found an error in your system files and was unable to fix the problem. Try deleting some files to free up disk space on your Windows drive. If that doesn't work then you will need to install Windows to a new directory.
The computer with the bad registry has gigabytes of free disk space. You should also know that "Installing Windows to a new directory" also means re-installing ALL your applications. "Installing Windows to a new directory" is equivalent to re-formatting your hard disk and starting over.
Please also realize that this is only one of MANY such issues.
One reason to use Open Source software is that it is of much higher quality.
Bush's education improvements were
Yeah, OK, so not even close. When I started composing my message there was only one other comment. Ninety seconds later, there were dozens. Doesn't anybody have better things to do with their time?
Most Slashdot readers don't read every comment; you have a much higher chance of being read if you post early, when there are few other comments to distract attention. Most people who try for a really early post (such as the "F1R5T PS0T!!!1!" lamers) compose several messages in advance and then adapt them to a particular story.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Another bonus is that it will help these countries get an immediate return on their university computer science programs. Money funneled into cs education will yield graduates capable of filling whatever needs the government may have by porting and extending existing free software, and of course translating the English UI to Spanish and/or Portuguese. If an application doesn't exist in free form, the government can always contract the creation of a new piece of software. But the CS graduates their universities generate will be in a better position to evaluate pre-existing applications to find applicable code.
So Microsoft (and many other US companies) will lose sales in South America unless they sell it under a liscence acceptable to those governments. The challenge for the US will be to figure out how to convert the money that once went toward Microsoft EULAs and CAs into sales for other companies. Unless Microsoft is prepared to come around... What I hear from Microsoft is that they're willing to divulge code, but they tack on a price in addition to their current liscencing schemes. It doesn't sound like that would be compatible with these new policies (and it would raise the price even further for them).
Democracy. Whiskey. Sexy. Pick any two.
Think about it.
Given there are over 190+ linux versions, why did you opt to refer to BSD and a 'flavor of the week' when the Linux market is FAR mor fragmented?
if the government forces any citizens or companies to use free, then that is rather silly and backwards.
what about bsd ,etc in these places?
"Viva los Penguinistas!"
"Viva la revolucion Linuxismo!"
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
... it's rather upsetting and embarassing to see that my country, touting itself as the pillar of freedom, still chooses to favor software from a company that itself identified as a monopoly. You would think, if politicians and tech decision makers were completely unbiased (a utopian dream) that they would look at all of the options, all of the angles, and all of the possible side affects of using proprietary, closed-source software from a monopoly. At the very least, heads of IT departments at US corporations should be looking at every resource available to them, not just one OS and set of software - as my company unfortunately does. I would expect the self-described experts to switch to open-source (as applicable) first, then the non-tech-oriented government to possibly follow. But for my country, mostly thinking it has the best government yet invented by society, to be the last to listen to some of the population and see the benefits of open-source software is very upsetting.
Developers: We can use your help.
"It's very exciting because any time you have respectable entities like governments
And how often is it that we see goventments as being respectable, instead of backstabbing and limiting?
I hate to agree with Microsoft's FUD, which at this point in time IS FUD, but I do think in the long run there ought to be harmony between lots of different models of software development. People bring lots of different motivations to the table when they go to produce software, and allowing them to make and distribute their products in the way they like give the consumers the widest possible range of options. So laws forbidding governments to investing in a particular product development model seem excessive to me - in the long run. They may be reasonable now to break Microsoft's monopoly.
That said, these countries' reactions make perfect sense to me - the hegemony of the US over the internet and the hegemony of Microsoft over software arose at the same time. And since both countries behave themselves as obnoxious bullies in public fora (although I know firsthand that both have citizens who are neither obnoxious nor bullies), this backlash is a pretty reasonable reaction.
I forgot: Microsoft is a .......is a fat piece of poo.
A day of reckoning lies ahead. When international pressure is brought to bear and companies/ministries etc here are forced to purchase licences for (mainly Microsoft) software in use, they'll be forced to examine lower cost alternatives. This means GPL/Open Source.
Some smart businesses are already trying out GPl/Open Source but these are a tiny minority.
Bottom line - MS and the others can retain market share in developing countries only if they lower the bar to compliance and, by winning over less affluent clients now, they'll build loyalty later on.
Does anyone have stats on software piracy in developing countries?
Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
Me wonders will this be +1 Funny or -1 Flamebait?
At least, not all the time. There's nothing inherently evil about a monopoly, and its not even a crime to be one. Remember, the MS case is about abusing monopoly power in 1 market to rig the deck in another.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I am curious how long before Brazil or another country just ups and declares what price they will pay for a copyrighted piece of software.
In other words, how long before they trample copyrights on software in the name of "the good of the people". Brazil has already shown (so has South Africa) that if your company doesn't agree to their terms they will just label you greedy and uncaring and use it as justification to take what they want.
Hence, I think this "free" software is just a short term feel good measure. Anything is free if you don't pay for it. It uses the atypical (repeat after me : BORING) enenmy of Microsoft to explain why they must do this. Free software will only provide them "so much" before they will need to acquire a commercial product. What makes anyone believe they just won't suddenly end up with a near clone of that commercial software engineered under a "free clause"... in other words, put some government slaves to work taking it apart and remarking it as their own?
Free does not equal open source.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
If this is a trend and not just a brief hiccup, it has a number of interesting implications:
It'll be interesting to see how this continues.
Don't fool yourself about Central/South Americans.
I was born and raised in Miami. I've seen first-hand what Latin influence can do. As a group they are, hands down, the most corrupt people I've ever encountered. Since I wasa child, I watched Miami go from a really nice place to live in the 70's (until I was 16 years old, we NEVER locked the doors in our house or on our cars; now I wouldn't even walk inside my house without setting the alarm on my car) to the crime-infested political laughing stock of the nation shithole city it is now. And yes, most of this is due to Latin influence. They run Miami like they would run Managua. It's their way.
When I worked independently installing networks, EVERY Latin customer I had, and this was over 100, refused to pay the normal licensing fees for software. And before you go nutty about Windows, I don't mean only Windows. Anti-Virus software, proprietary software specific to their business, ANYTHING. Literally 100% of them refused to pay for their software. When I explained it was illegal, they explained they didn't care.
I've gone to school with Latins. I've dated Latins. I've grown up and worked intimately with Latins. Some of my best friends are Latins. But as a group, they are fuckheads.
Yes, the girls are hot. Half the girls I've dated have been Latin. Incindentally, the last 3 I've dated were Brazilian. But that might be their strongest virtue.
One of the greatest flaws inherent in most smart people is their know-it-all attitude. Most of the opinions towards Central/South America are written by Middle Americans that have had about as much exposure to Latins as I've had to Nepalese. So please, before you, yes YOU, the dork hacker cunt sitting in Ohio at the keyboard who has never so much as seen a Latin eye-to-eye aside from jerking off to a Jennifer Lopez video, tell me how wrong I am, consider the source.
There is a reason Latins are flocking to America. They are fleeing a gigantic shithole. The novelty of the hot chicks walking around topless will quickly fade when they tax your income at 40% and you have to pay someone to be your security/body guard so no one kidnaps/kills/mugs you or cleans out your house. The fact that your computer is running Linux will mean fuckall to the glue-sniffer carrying it out of your backdoor.
I still can't figure out why Americans are so down on themselves. We're not bad folks. If you compare us to other cultures, we're pretty good people. Perhaps not compared to Tibetans, but compared to Latins we are angels. I think self-hate is trendy in America right now. Hopefully we'll snap out of it in the next decade or so. It's a shame to live in a country with all the opportunity we have and not be happy about it.
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
I think any publically funded school should be required to run linux. I don't want my tax money to pay for a bunch of licenses (some of your tax already goes to M$ via corporate welfare) so script kiddies can install ftp servers in the background and host pr0n or what ever.
/. for the 79437594375943 time. Simply put... I can't find the setting in windows9x to not let a certain person run a certain program. Hell, I can't even keep someone out of my 'my documents'
The biggest problem I ever heard when I was in school (about computers) was the security issue... and we don't need to bring that up on
I've talked to plenty of people on IRC who turned out to be 14-15 years old who are running a plethora of severs on their schools computers. These kids know windows, and they know how to hide this or that. Stick linux in front of them and I wish them luck! Maybe they will actually learn something about the computers they are using - and not just use them for evil. [one person used his whole schools network to ddos his principles home cable connection and other faculty members - and the user has no idea how it 'werks' what so ever]
But the real issue is the cost. I'm sure that they get discounts, but does that beat one cd, no license and the ability to legally install it anywhere? Did I mention that CD could cost you as little as 30 cents? I know my ex-roomate got a copy of office for $5 from his university... but it was a waste because I already had Star Office, abi word... and so on. [note: when i rebuilt my pc, and reformatted he lost his 'license' because M$ says that office was installed on another PC-- we were told by their piracy dept. he could only run it the limited 50 times or whatever]
Write to your senator. Tell him/her that its not fair that we/you all must pay for bs software. Its not safe... has no educational value... and simply costs a bundle.
Next we'll work on the rest of the government, until then lets try to help the teachers learn linux. Until they learn... any volunteer from the 'community' with 5 extra mins could ssh on in and fine tune the settings.
Get your Unix fortune now!
You mean just like how the tobacco industry has moved to "help" Asia and third world countries? Nothing plucks my heartstrings more than those touching Philip Morris ads where they're sending Kraft Mac and Cheese to wartorn countries.
Nothing like Microsoft modernization to make an underdeveloped country want to to back to rocks and sticks.
If you don't have great minds then pay for our perls like windows.
I don't know what YOU'RE doing to your Windows box, but the only time I've had registry problems is when I've done something to the registry, i.e. going in and deleting registry keys...and Windows stores backups of system.dat so even if you screw it up, you can restore from the backup unless you've rebooted a bunch of times after you blew away your registry. Many of Windows' problems exist between keyboard and chair.
In Europe, where numerous bills and resolutions have been introduced, local, state and federal governments spent $7.8 billion on software in 2000. In Brazil, governments spent a mere $200 million the same year, an indication of how little the country has to spend on software and why free or low-priced software holds such powerful appeal.
This may look impressive, but one should also consider exactly what goes into the estimated costs on software purchases. If these estimates include the cost of man-hours for producing custom software, this is not going to be a fair comparison because it will have more to do with how much money European countries are putting into, say, development of custom military software than it will have to do with what OS the foreign ministry is using for their desktops. I browsed the net a bit but was unable to find out what the size of the budgets of all of the European countries was in comparison with the size of Brazil's budget. It would be much more compelling to see what percent of Brazil's budget was spent on software in comparison with the percent of the countries in Europe.
As a side note, I know for a fact that the US military uses free operating systems and free build tools for some of their software, but they are still pouring a ton of money into the man-hours to create that custom software.
While I advocate the use of free software, and agree that it will help save some money, the comparison between Brazil and Europe in this article is fairly ridiculous because of the likely nature of their software expenditures. This may be a little off the subject, but a pet peeve of mine is when articles throw out fairly meaningless numbers to attempt to support their point.
I'm French and like everywhere the governement has a very "fuzzy" attitude.
:-(
On one hand, the government has created an agency for improving the usage of "logiciels libres" withing the administrations, but on the other hand the government is on the verge of supporting the creation of software's patents, thanks to the intense lobbying of the big industrials..
There is a petition to fight against the creation of software patents in Europe, but apparently it has no effect
An army - no. A big issue is education - it requires a basic level of education to become a hacker, and much of the African population falls below that level. But there are African hackers, I know a couple. South Africa has produced quite a few, since it has a somewhat first-world education system, at least for its wealthier citizens (used to be whites only, but that's changed a bit now).
The digitial certificate company Thawte is South African, for example (see this article. Of course, Thawte has since been acquired by the U.S. certificate monopoly, Verisign - can't have any foreign competition, wouldn't be good for business.
For your amusement, here are a few links (found on Google):
But some of the best African hackers leave for other countries, where they can earn more money and leave the various problems of Africa behind.
The founder of X.com, Elon Musk, is a South African. X.com now owns Paypal. Musk founded X.com with the $305 million in cash he made from selling the Internet directory company he founded, Zip2.
You may argue whether some of the above are truly hackers, but the point is, the skills are there, just not in the numbers that you get in countries with better-educated populations.
If Massachusetts can't refuse to do business with Burma, California and Canada can't ban specific chemicals and the EU can't refuse to purchase homone fed beef or genetically modified foods, then odds are, the WTO isn't gonna go for these governments banning closed source software.
t ml
http://www.indg.org/Burma.htm
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/WTOandWar.h
http://www.zmag.org/Bulletins/peffwng.htm
- bridgette
Nice to know other brazilians noticed also. It is about time we start teaching the government about Free Software :)
If I were a government, I'd want the source code of my software to be available for both security audits and in case my supplier ever went out of business. I would want all document file formats to be well documented and free of patent encumberances. I would want my software to interoperate easily with other software from other sources. Open source software fits all of these desires quite well.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The article has several blazing errors, such as:
Brazil and China place heavy export duties on technology products, which effectively forces U.S. companies to build local facilities and employ large portions of the population.
The countries in question impose import duties. They charge you to bring it into the country. They're tickled pink for you to make it there and then sell it to other countries.
Otherwise, I think the article is quite correct in its central theme, other countries don't want to be beholden to the US in any way, shape or form. They would rather take care of themselves than live hand-to-mouth from crumbs off the American table. Hell, can you blame 'em!?!
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The laws mentioned in the articles would only require government software to be libre, unless proprietary software was the only alternative. There was no mention of any laws requiring individuals or corporations to use libre software.
I don't see how governments saving money by paying less licensing fees will restrict anyone's freedoms.
-jimbo
"Hold me Bob!" "I would if I could man!" -Bob and Larry from VeggieTales
You said Siemens in your post? You do know that Siemens is the largest user of MS products in the World. I work for Siemens & when we threatened to walk away from a new Enterprise Agreement if they didn't fix the licensing issues, MS took notice real quick & things got worked out.. The only Siemens Company I know of that is really looking at Linux is SBS which hassome agreements with SUSE & RedHat so SBS can provide " Full" support to customers. SBS is trying to go against IBM Global Services so they want to say " yes we support that" BUT A lot of us in the trenches at Siemens support open source & bitch everytime MS is in the office.
As a group they are, hands down, the most corrupt people I've ever encountered.
Mexico was in the list of the most corrupt countries of the world, but we are not anymore
we bribed the makers of the list!
Kilroy was here!
The DOJ case and monopoly arguments are completely independent of why these governments are pursuing free software.
They are pursuing free software solely because of the costs (in terms of $, not speech) associated with the other kind.
Don't automatically assume that just because the word Microsoft is mentioned it has something to do with the DOJ case. Try reading the articles sometimes.
Mmmm.. Donuts
snip from poster---
Maybe it's time to visit Rio?
snip from a Yahoo! news item---
Elat estimates 100 to 200 people are killed every year by one of the 100 million bolts it says hit Brazil annually and make the country the world champion of lightning strikes.
Do you really think this is a good place to visit for people who sit at computers all day?!
It's funny how people all around the world hate being screwed and desire freedom. Nothing is so helpless as an NT user or admin.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
that's right, here at ScaredCity(?tm?), & at all of our other (soon_to_be_GNUked) websites, we strive to pay people, not corepirate robber barons. what in the fud do all those foreigners gnow that the gooed old U>S> talknicians doN'T? fud is dead. Viva La Revolucione
If I wasn't an AC this would be (+1, informative)
Since Latins allow niggers to circulate in their society as normal people, the fucking African genetic tendency to crime corrupts their entire society. All Latin American countries should contract nigger-control consultants from Alabama, Mississippi, and, as I realize now, from Florida, too.
A government that does what is best for Microsoft, or a government that does what is best for the taxpayers?
With an acute accent in the "e", it means "livery", that is, the uniform worn by domestic servants in feudal mansions. The word is obsolete, and probably hasn't been used in the last few centuries, but it does have a meaning in the Portuguese language.
Let's just look at the numbers...
oh, shit, I can't do that...
I agree with what you said. However, the point was that Linux doesn't seem to have the same vulnerabilities.
I don't think there is a Linux message that says, "The corruption is too great to repair. You will have to install everything again."
There is such a Windows message; read my original post.
Bush's education improvements were
File system corruption is easily fixed. Microsoft Windows sometimes has unrepairable operating system corruption. See the original post.
Bush's education improvements were
I have met many good Americans, and they seem to counteract your actions.
"give something back"
What exactly "did you get"?
Nothing. Governments will realize that the software they need is not available. They will either try to write it themselves, give up, and buy it from Microsoft just like they do now. Others will write it, end up with something compatible with nothing else, give up, and buy it from Microsoft. There is no benefit whatsoever.
Brazilian laws are valid only in Brazil. If Americans don't want their inventions to be used in the rest of the world, they should keep them secret. There's no reason why American laws should be valid all over the world where American products are sold. Just imagine if the Nepalese laws on marijuana consumption were valid in any place where Nepalese marijuana was consumed...
Anyhow, check what the USA Constitution says about copyrights and patents:
Article I, section 8 - "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"
If the marketing conditions imposed by drug companies go against the promotion of the progress of Science, it's only right that they lose their monopoly.
There is a one hell of a difference between using unauthorized copies of software and making unauthorized drugs. Oh I get it: "I'm sorry Senor Sanchez but we have no money to pay for these expensive drugs so we'll have to let you die." Yeah right. They're going to watch people die just so they can do the right thing by a multinational conglomerate.
As for paying for software, it doesn't strain the imagination to suppose that feature development could be funded. It not like it would cost more than all of those software licences. "Oh look, it doesn't have the capitilization macro! I just suppose we're going to have to use Office then!" Sheesh!
'Intellectual Property' is a lie. It is NOT property.
Copyright (and related laws: patents, etc) is not a natural right, it's granted by the government (on behalf of the People) to encourage more works.
Copyright is being abused in a major way - when the People decide they're tired of being fucked over (like not being able to OWN what they pay for, and other minor trivialities like DYING OF FUCKING HIV/AIDS), they will revoke your Copyright. No more soup for you.
If you abuse it, you lose it. And that's just too fuckin' bad.
I referred to Siemens programs to train people in system admin, SAP/R3 etc in Germany for free, if people are unemployed and need to be trained in new technologies, because their old skills become outdated.
They could extend those programs to more extensive training programs for Linux and OS e-commerce applications, like in partnership with RedHat and SuSe. I don't care who supports that, Siemens or IBM, as long as they do it for OSS and allow people to get trained for OSS applications as well.
I might just not understand under what kind of strangling conditions IBM and Siemens might support Linux just to promote their own proprietary software to run on Linux and therefore might not be interested to support massive training for OSS applications which might compete with their proprietory e-commerce applications. I just don't understand what is going on. I am not a guru/geek. I just think in order for OSS applications to win, massive training options at very affordable prices must be created.
You have been seeing too many movies!
I went in and registered as a Brazilian user.
My serial number is 227744. If I wasn't drunk, I supposed it would come out as 274...
Hey, thanks for the tip! Lucky you, I'm not moderating today. And lucky all those that didn't reply (-1, redundant) "No one is 'requiring', it's just about government regulation requesting government agencies to check about availability of free software before buying shitware from micro$oft..."
It's only broken "operating systems" that get corrupted.
There are millions of people dying of AIDS in Latin America and Africa. Those countries have no money to pay the drug companies what they are asking for. Is it right for them to give drugs to the people who need them, or should they pay as many billions of $$$ as the companies want? (HINT: those billions of $$$ will NOT go to the scientists who actually developed the drugs...)
Starting with UNESCO, which for many years has distributed a free library package called CDS/ISIS, the United Nations is actively promoting the use of free software, especially its free software portal.
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
Recently in Germany, the defense ministry
and the army decided NOT TO USE Microsoft
or american software, because they noticed
that data packets where send by idle
computers running Windows 2000 to places
in the states of Washington and Virginia
in the U.S.A.
This added to the concerns that europeans
have about the Echelon network, makes a
stronger case than the cost, from a political
point of view.
Wich country wants a system that is also a
snooper, handling all the sensitive information?
And, given China's abysmal record of using slave labor it is not surprising that they would view OpenSource as yet another chance to not pay people for their labor...
If anybody's reading this thread anymore...
I guess somebody at the news department of one of the local TV-stations doesn't like Microsoft very much.. They ran a story about Linux's 10-year birthday party and how it is becoming a viable alternative for Windows, and directly after that a news report on how the new licensing sceme Microsoft will use will cost the cities here, was it about 0.5 billion FIM (bit under 0.1EUR).
I doubt, therefore I may be.