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Dubai. Israel. Desalination is a solved problem.

Not really, no.

South Africa is going through rough times - serious economic and social stresses, the sort of racial tensions the progressives imagine exist in America.

If you want to talk about America, instead of uselessly lambasting progressives over a strawman, why not bring up examples like Flint, Michigan, CopperHill, Tennesse, or Jackson, Missippi? Or Georgia's perennial struggles to claim its alleged water rights from bordering states?

It's a solved problem, but desalination is also somewhat expensive - tough for SA in its current economic climate.

So in other words, it's not actually a solve problem, because in the real world, you can't just hand-wave a solution, but have to pursue a long-term effort. And in fact, contrary to your statements, both countries you named have problems.

Google Play bans Bomb Gaza
http://www.israelnationalnews....
http://www.channel4.com/news/b...

Google bans Whack The Hamas
http://jewishbusinessnews.com/...

Google Play bans Milo Tosser
https://twitter.com/riffraffga...

Google Play permanently bans developer of "Hilliar Clinton" game
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/...

The more infidels they kill the moslems are being told that their 'allah' will reward them with more virgins

The scriptures have been misinterpreted all along! The martyars will not get 72 virgins, they will get a 72 year old woman:
http://www.israelhayom.co.il/a...
http://www.israelnationalnews....

That's right, a 72 year old woman decided that she'll be a terrorist earlier this week. That old hag will be what the martyars will be fighting over in their afterlife.

Unprovoked? You really are deluded. When was the first rocket fired by Hamas? I'll tell you, it was on 28 June 2014.

I'm happy to inform you that you have been lied to by the media. The rockets are shot at Israel daily, just they are not reported because it is not news until we shoot back. In fact, Hamas killed a three year old girl with a rocket on 23 June 2014:
http://www.israelnationalnews....

Both Israelis _and_ Gazans live in fear of Hamas. Your media should have reported how Hamas took over Gaza in 2006, lining up and exectuting Fatah policemen with a bullet in the back of the head one by one as the policemen kneeled blindfolded. If memory serves me right, one mass grave had 47 bodies in it.

I'm posting anon because I don't have Lastpass yet installed on this new Kubuntu install. I'm this guy:
http://slashdot.org/~dotancohe...

The only picture of a synagogue being vandalized is this one [thedemocrate.com] (and its variations from different angles).

Why are you posting information that is easily proven false? Do you need more links to show that you are a liar? Here is another, and another. And of course the number of synagogues being vandalized is low, there are not many in these areas.

I don't know who that "nobody" is, because the pictures and videos number in the thousands. Here [youtube.com] is a video from Kerch where guys in Russian uniform (sans chevron with a flag) try to weasel out from answering the question, but eventually admit that they're from Russia. There are many others like it.

Showing people in military uniforms with no markings of Russian makes them Russian, got it. More false information, not surprising. The only place that saw any Russian troops was Crimea near the bases. There is more proof of Blackwater being in Kiev than there is for Russian troops being in unauthorized locations in the Ukraine. Neither side is rock solid either.

One point I made is, and was, that there is a ton of propaganda being set up on both sides, and you are simply proving my point. Thanks for playing!

The other point is, and was, that claiming the US is wrong is not the same as claiming Russia is right. You can't seem to comprehend that point, at all, so there is no sense trying to continue dialogue.

already here

I'm not defending the actions of the murderers, and I'm not defending the inaction of the bystanders who observe the crimes and do nothing. But, these reports might give you some understanding of their perspective and why they are mad. The UN has an absolutely terrible track record in Africa. They've been accused of widespread sexual abuse of children across multiple African countries by thousands of victims, across a number of years with virtually no action taken to stop the abuse. There are also numerous accusations of corruption and collusion with warlords. The UN as an organization has noble intentions, but the people on the ground are subject to some very human flaws when given too much power over the weak.

2002: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2002/05/06/Refugee-sex-scandal-triggers-UN-reforms/UPI-89771020662474/ - UN troops raped children in Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Guinea.

2006: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6195830.stm - Children have been subjected to rape and prostitution by United Nations peacekeepers in Haiti and Liberia, a BBC investigation has found

2007: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1538476/UN-staff-accused-of-raping-children-in-Sudan.html - The UN said today that it would launch an investigation after the Daily Telegraph reported allegations that UN personnel have abused children in southern Sudan.

2011: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146874 - An AP investigation found that food meant for starving Somalis is being stolen and sold in markets. UN's World Food Program unfazed.

Nah. Neither Al Quaeda nor the Muslim Brotherhood is so coherent an organization that it could pull off deceit on this scale.

They have already done it in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Libya. They were so successful that it can hurt the careers of college professors, politicians, and government analysts to question the Muslim Brotherhood's party line. "Progressive" websites routinely delete comments for merely mentioning that the Muslim Brotherhood exists; The Guardian's Comment Is Free is notorious for this, and Democratic websites in the US consider knowledge of the Muslim Brotherhood to be a sign of Republican Party membership and therefore "trollish behaviour".

They not only could do it. They have done it. They are still doing it. Have you noticed who the "rebels" in Syria are? And they control the levers of power to such a degree that anybody who questions their doctrine is ostracised by society.

Umm, citation needed on that. And it would hardly be surprising for a journalist to assume that explosives that strike in Gaza are much more likely to be Israeli than Hamas - Hamas firing rockets at Gaza makes about as much sense as the IDF firing explosives at Tel Aviv. I'm not suggesting Hamas are innocent here, just that they aren't that stupid.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2013/03/will-owen-jones-apologise/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166054#.UU5hVVdXvXw
Notice how the left-wiung journalists at BBC are choosing to slant the news they present to you (without doing basic tradecraft like checking facts). It turns out a lot of Hamas' poorly made missiles misfire and land on their own civilians. Hamas doesn't care about the civilians, it gets to blame it on Israelis and the journalists repeat the falsehoods without checking. Rinse and repeat a few times and the moral actor (Israel) is demonized in the minds of regular folks and the evil actor (Hamas) comes out smelling like the innocent party (despite them caring neither for Israeli nor Palestinian civilians in their genocidal jihad - ps. check the Hamas Charter, it is pure evil).

A professional journalist *must check their facts* before publishing. If they can't check that facts then either don't publish, or list the possibilities. In many instances reporters covering conflicts between forces (not just Israelis, also against NATO etc) will publish articles that are inflammatory but also very wrong. Once an article has been published it is very hard to retract. That's why we get jihadis killing people because they see shamely false articles on BBC etc that accuse Israel or NATO of war crimes - yet the forces of these nations take a great deal of care to wage war humanly and within the Geneva Convention (unlike their opponents whose whole modus operandi is a complete war crime). Besides the BBC the UN is not much better (no suprise, it is dominated by the 57 countries of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation [OIC] who are all for committing geneocide against Israel because the Qur'an and hadiths expliticitly say this will be done before the Last Days).

Would I be correct in guessing you are Israeli or regularly read Israeli news sources?

Do you have any idea of how racist that sounds? as if Israelis can't report impartially, ever? Being critical of any culture is fine, provided it is fact based. Where I take umbrage is that much of the reporting these days doesn't get basic facts straight. The BBC and Al Jazeera are not high quality sources as the grandparent suggested, in fact they are quite baised because they don't fact check reports that match their narrative, just like MSNBC. That's just poor journalism.

Now yes, I do read Israeli sources since the mainstream media is so badly biased. You must also note that I also try and read translated news from the Palestinian side too - not the stuff originally in English, because that has been designed with 'taqoyya' in mind. If you read the stuff (or watch videos) translated from material originally for Palestinians you will be amazed how racist, genocidal, anti-Western, anti-Israeli and downright evil their news is. Take a look sometime at the brainwashing shows their children get. Look at the Goldstone Report from the UN, and how the UN accepted unfounded claims uncritically. Later the eponymous author of the report, Richard Goldstone withdrew his name because it was clear he was being played for propaganda purposes. The problem is, the damage had already been done to the reputation of the side that sought to avoid war crimes while the side whose modus operandi is a deliberate war crime is brushed over.

In other words, I wouldn't expect to see accurate reporting from Haaretz on the H

Then, we don't even have a proof that Iran has a program for nuclear weapons, we only know they are working on nuclear power.

Allow me to draw your attention to Section H of the IAEA director general's report dated 30 August 2012 on Iran's nuclear program, where it states, among other things: "39. The Annex to the Director General's November 2011 report (GOV/2011/65) provided a detailed analysis of the information available to the Agency, indicating that Iran has carried out activities that are relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device." In short, they have found nuclear weapons related activities. I will also drawn your attention to this, where at least seven activities related to nuclear weapons development carried out by Iran are noted. And last, but not least, the UN Secretary General is calling for Iran to come clean on its activities. So the bottom line is, yes, we have proof that Iran has been pursuing a nuclear weapon.

Why is it that USA should be the police of this world? Who gave them this authority?

I'm afraid you're badly confused on this point. It is European Union members that are taking the lead in trying to turn Iran around diplomatically, and the UN Security Council that is holding Iran accountable, as stated in my post above. (Among other things: "The UN Security Council has passed multiple resolutions demanding that Iran halt its uranium enrichment activities.")

My question to you is, how do you get this so wrong? How do you confuse Europe for the United States? Are you trying to claim that the United States is not equal to European powers? Why do you have this prejudice against the United States? Do you post without reading? (Silly me, this is Slashdot.)

The United States has acted in its interests, just like other powers. To pretend that the United States is unique in that is silly and against the facts.

Excuse me, who started it? That would be the Iranian government with their covert nuclear weapons program

I'm sorry, but this doesn't work with me.

I'm not surprised, but I'll work with you on this one - what did Stuxnet attack? Parts of the nuclear weapons program. If the nuclear weapons program didn't exist, would Stuxnet have exited? No, why would it - there would be nothing to attack. Nuclear program is action, Stuxnet is counter-action, AKA blowback. See, very simple when you think about it.

USA admittedly has enough nuclear weapons to destroy earth multiple times. And it's been more than half a century this happened. Why didn't Iran go after USA then?

That is a pretty silly attempt at moral equivalency. I'm amazed that you would try it. But I'll throw in a history lesson for free - the US and Iran were allies until 1979, and World War 2 ended in 1945. Just think about it.

Now, here are a few reasons why Europeans and others might have some concerns about Iran:

Iran Threatens To 'Freeze' Europe for Backing Sanctions (Would have sent you to the old Copt news site that hosted that as well, but for some reason it seems to be off-line. Ideas ?)
State Sponsors: Iran

Pretty much, yes. They have chemical weapons and missiles, and are trying for nuclear. They also threaten their neighbors, and Europe. (Would have sent you to the old Copt news site that hosted that as well, but for some reason it seems to be off-line. Ideas?)

Iran’s Chemical Weapon Program

In April 1984, the Iranian delegate to the United Nations, Rajai Khorassani, admitted at a London news conference that Iran was “capable of manufacturing chemical weapons [and would] consider using them.” In 1987, according to the U.S. Department of Defense, Iran was able to deploy limited quantities of mustard gas and cyanide against Iraqi troops. The change in Iran’s policy with regard to chemical warfare was publicly announced in December 1987, when Iranian Prime Minister Hussein Musavi was reported to have told parliament that Iran was producing “sophisticated offensive chemical weapons.”

As Iran’s chemical warfare capabilities grew, it became more difficult to determine which side was responsible for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq war. In March 1988, the Kurdish town of Halabja in northern Iraq, sandwiched between Iranian and Iraqi forces, was caught in chemical weapon crossfire that left thousands of civilians dead. A 1990 U.S. Department of Defense reconstruction of the Halabja incident reportedly concluded that both Iran and Iraq used chemical weapons in Halabja. Iran allegedly attacked the town with cyanide gas bombs and artillery, and Iraqi forces allegedly used a mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents. In total, the Defense Department study estimated that Iranian forces used more than 50 chemical bombs and artillery shells during the offensive. The Pentagon analysis of the Halabja incident is corroborated by a 1990 report co-written by Stephen Pelletiere, the CIA’s senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. In his report, Pelletiere stated that there was “no evidence whatsoever that the Iraqis have ever employed blood gasses such as cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide.” Because “blood agents were allegedly responsible forthe killing of Kurds at Halabjah,” Pelletiere concluded that “the Iranians perpetrated this attack.” . . .

In an assessment of Iran’s chemical weapon development released in November 2004, the CIA concluded that Iran “may have already stockpiled blister, blood, choking, and possible nerve agents—and the bombs and artillery shells to deliver them.” Earlier assessments put Iran’s stockpile of chemical agents at anywhere from several hundred to several thousand metric tons. In March 2001, General Tommy Franks, head of U.S. Central Command, testified before the U.S. House Armed Services Committee that Iran was “the holder of the largest chemical weapons stockpile” in his area of responsibility.

In September 2000, the CIA assessed that Iran’s chemical weapon program still relied upon external suppliers for technology, equipment and precursor chemicals, but that Tehran was “rapidly approaching self-sufficiency and could become a supplier of CW-related materials to other nations.” Since then, the CIA has reported that Iran was seeking “production technology, training and expertise” that could help it “achieve an indigenous capability to produce nerve agents.”

One of the most recent assessments of Iran’s chemical weapon capabilities was revealed in a February 2005 report by the German news agency ddp, citing findings by Germany’s Customs Office of Criminal Investigations (ZKA). The ZKA reportedly believes that Iran has secretly carried out chemical weapon research and development in small, well-guarded unive

Americans like to be lied to so they can keep their precious illusions intact. That is a huge part of the reason your country is in such a mess now.

Spanish unemployment ~ 25%, Greece borders on revolt, the PIGS face economic collapse. The Eurozone is in danger of dissolving. Native European birthrates are so low that Europe is heading toward demographic catastrophe. Large percentages of the large numbers of immigrants brought into Europe do not accept European values and represent a long term danger of civil war. And yet, you cast stones. . .

A bit of humility and actually getting to grips with reality could place the US firmly back in the 1st world.

I think most Americans would rather move forward than back.

(Forget about "world leadership"

That would be taking the eyes off from the road. That doesn't end well usually.

The ability to destroy something does not imply you lead anything.

The ability of the US Navy to destroy the Iranian naval forces planning to block the Straits of Hormuz means that if the need arises, the US Navy will lead the naval task forces keeping the oil flowing to Europe despite the threats of Iranian generals to freeze Europeans in winter.

Does this debate exist anywhere outside the US and maybe some south-american countries? -- I have never seen a trace of it in Europe, (where I live).

Yes, it does. I suspect Jewish creationism is enough of a minority view that the debate isn't huge in Israel, but I might be mistaken there. I don't know how significant Hindu creationism is.

OH NOES! IRAN THREATENS US AND UK!!!!

You should probably change the title of your post to, "Iran threatens its neighbors, Europe, the US, and some other country they want to remove from the pages of history." You didn't post anything about how convenient those the US bases in nearby countries make Iranian or Iranian backed attacks against US forces performing missions in those other countries. Also, I notice that Iranian bases and activities aren't depicted on the map - I suppose that would challenge the narrative of "poor little Iran". I will also note that this post is barely skimming the surface of Iran's activities. For instance, it doesn't cover much of anything about Iran's activities in Syria, where it is helping prop up the current regime, or Lebanon, where its proxy Hezbollah is virtually a state within a state, and armed with 50,000 rockets to attack Israel.

Gulf States on Arms Buying Binge to Counter Iran Threat

Saudi Arabia and the smaller Gulf monarchies are buying huge amounts of advanced arms from the United States and Europe. The weaponry is clearly aimed to counter the growing threat they see coming from Iran.

The United States alone has around $100 billion in potential sales in the pipeline right now. The biggest is a Saudi deal, initiated in 2010 and approved by Congress, totaling around $60 billion. The package includes jets, helicopters, hundreds of Harpoon anti-ship missiles, training, and logistical services. Israel, initially worried about the sale, agreed — after U.S. assurances — to support it in September

Iran Threatens To 'Freeze' Europe for Backing Sanctions - First Publish: 2/28/2010

Brigadier-General Hossein Salami of Iran's Revolutionary Guard warned Sunday that Iran has the power to cut Europe's energy supply. The warning was issued as European leaders prepared to debate sanctions on Iran over its nuclear program.

"Iran sits on 50 percent of the world's energy, and if it wants, Europe will spend the winter in the cold,” Salami told Iranian troops in the city of Kerman. His speech was published by the Iranian Fars news agency.

Iran threatens to block Strait of Hormuz oil route

Iran threatens US Navy over Gulf activity - Warns US aircraft carrier not to return to Gulf waters

Iran Threatens Two More Naval Chokepoints - In addition to the Strait of Hormuz.

Considerable attention is being given to Iranian threats to block the Strait of Hormuz, through which a large proportion of the world’s petroleum sails. The U.S Energy Information Administration estimates that “almost 17 million barrels in 2011, up from between 15.5-16.0 million bbl/d in 2009-2010,” sails past Iranian gun and missile emplacements along the coast, mine-laying ships, and Revolutionary Guard fast boats. In 2011, that amounted to “roughly 35 percent of all seaborne traded oil, or almost 20 percent of oil traded worldwide.”

Yet the recent visit of two Iranian naval vessels to the Saudi Red Sea port of Jeddah should draw attention to two more vital naval chokepoints—the Bab el Mandeb Strait at the southern tip of the Red Sea, and the Suez Canal located between the northern tip of the Red Sea and the Mediterranean. (See this map.) More than three million barrels of oil pass through the Bab el Mandeb every day on the way to the Suez Canal and the SUMED (Suez-Mediterranean) pipeline used by tankers that are too big to traverse the Can

They blow themselves up in defence of their religon.

Even if it weren't idiotically false, it would just prove that they (some of them, not all) are completely freaking insane.
Now let's look at some of the more infamous examples of their "defence of their religon":

Sbarros bombing- was it the children or the pizza that were threatening?

Three Year Old Stabbed in the Heart, Baby's Throat Slashed- again, it must have been the children. Maybe they were threatened by the pacifier?

4 Israelis killed in shooting attack- I guess if there's no children around, might as well shoot a pregnant woman? Point blank? Sounded good to them.

One common thread among these and the many other terrorist attacks is that no matter how many children, women, or non-combatant men are killed, the Palestinians are completely unrepentant, often even celebrating the murderers.

Blowing up a symbol of the same religion is against that line of thought.
  Now if you consider the age old: "If I can't have it nobody will have it" this does not mean they'll not attack.

No, but the fact that they (Iran) have been funding terror groups which are currently attacking Israel sort of implies that, well, they're probably fairly willing to attack Israel. Need me to chart that out for you?

They'd nuke Tel Aviv and Haifa without a second thought. As to how holy Jerusalem is in Islam, that's debatable.

The only thing China really wants from NK is to act as a strong buffer against the capitalistic influence of SK,

And a sock puppet to export nuclear and missile technology to Syria, Iran, Hamas, Burma and probably a few other places.

Israeli policy is to use all means in self-defence (since they never acknowledge whether they have nukes or not) if WMD have been used against them. In short they have stated a posture of strategic deterrence in the hope that enemies are smart enough never to try.

Who the fuck are you? Netanyahu?

First of all, since they don't make it clear that they in fact do have nukes, which they got from the US, why isn't the IAEA all over their backs investigating dilligently?

Second of all, what do you think they want to move with this, leaflets?

To help you out: they feel the should attack Iran first and let someone else ask questions later.

Idiot.

Flotilla is a statement against the Gaza blockade AKA collective punishment on general civilian population.

False. Israel allows non-military goods to enter Gaza, in large volumes. Egypt opened its border with Gaza quite some time ago.

The gazans are suffering because of small number of islamists and their israeli counterparts, who wish to have the palestinian areas fully included in a Greater Israel.

False. Israel completely left Gaza in 2005. They left behind large numbers of greenhouses, which they had been paid for by Bill Gates.

Of course, the residents of Gaza then proceeded to destroy the greenhouses. There was no letup in Hamas terror attacks after Israel left Gaza, clearly showing the lie of "land for peace".

The problem behind the conflict is that Israel exists, period. Large number of Arabs & Muslims refuse to accept this under any circumstances. Don't believe me? Read their own documents, like the Hamas Charter. In particular:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it"

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious."

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)."

If the human rights were universally applied Israel and palestinians would live in either two distinct nations or in one nation of Israel

Both were rejected by the Arabs.

I think it is more likely that this is retaliation from Israel:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/136924

        The United States has begun denying visas to Israel's nuclear scientists, according to the Hebrew-language daily Maariv. Workers at the reactor in Dimona told the paper that they had been treated poorly by US representatives, and had been told they could not travel to the States.

Israel is telling the US that in can get into itz nukular plantz any timez it wantz, lol!11!!1

Such lovely, loyal allies the US has in the ME.

In any case, are you saying they don't have a right to defend themselves from Israel's IDF paramilitary terrorists?

The IDF are not paramilitary, they are Israel's military.

Is there any evidence that the IDF attacked Iran with this worm? No.

The notorious war criminal Ariel Sharon said that all Arabs should be exterminated (yes, I know the Iranians are Persians, not Arabs).

Alleged to be a war criminal by some. Never prosecuted.

And if Ariel Sharon said that, you correctly point out that it doesn't apply to Iran. Incidentally, Ariel Sharon hasn't been prime minister of Israel for many many years. In fact, he is in a coma, and has no influence on current affairs.

The present Israeli government seems to be doing a good job of herding the Palestinians into ghettos

Not true. There are many types of "Palestinians".

1. There are those who live in Israel and are citizens of Israel.

These people have Israeli passports, they vote, run for office (some are elected), and serve on the Israeli supreme court.

2. There are those who live in the West Bank and Gaza.

These people fall under the Palestinian Authority.

3. There are those that live in other countries.

If these people live in Arab countries, they are treated like dogs.

Plus, you need to define who Palestinians are, because that word predates the arrival of Arabs & Muslims to what is currently called Israel, Gaza & West Bank. If you are referring to Arab residents of the British Mandate of Palestine, then a Palestinian state exists - it's called Jordan.

And read the words of the current Palestinian Authority Chairman, Mahmoud Abbas (also called Abu Mazen). In the words of Abbas:

"I am among those who were born in the city of Tzfat (Safed). We were a family of means. I studied in elementary school, and then came the naqba [calamity, namely, the founding of the State of Israel - ed.]. At night, we left by foot from Tzfat, to the Jordan River, where we remained for a month. Then we went to Damascus, and then to our relatives in Jordan, and then we settled in Damascus.

"My father had money, and he spent his money systematically, and after a year, the money ran out and we began to work.

"The people's basic motives brought them to run away for their lives and with their property. These [motives] were very important, for they feared the violence of the Zionist terrorist organizations - and especially those of us from Tzfat felt that there was an old desire for revenge from the rebellion of 1929, and this was in the memory of our families and parents."

The "rebellion" Abbas referred to was a series of brutal Arab attacks on Jewish towns in the summer of 1929. Nearly 70 Jews were slaughtered in their homes in Hevron, 20 in Tzfat, 17 in Jerusalem, and others were murdered in Motza, Kfar Uriah and Tel Aviv.

Just wanted to point out that rubbish such as organ harvesting isn't particularly new - unless you count switching from Christian kids to Palestinian Arabs as some kind of creativity.

People, after all, believe what they want to believe. 700 years ago it was a little harder - a pastor had to work hard to convince his followers that their Jew neighbors are "organ harvesting vile psychopaths". Today it's enough to show a photo of a bunch of cow hearts and everyone goes berserk.

Cow hearts? Oh, stop it. I'm not talking about 700 year-old religious propaganda aimed at the poor, long-suffering Jews who must never be evaluated in the same light as any other war criminal, (because they're special!) I'm talking about Israel's chief pathologist being investigated for organ harvesting. And you know it.

As a side note - who is exactly this "government" you're talking about? I was sure it is democratically elected. And replaced every 2.5 years in average, by the way. So - unless everyone here is a psychopath (a wonderful word, by the way), eventually we will run out of psychopathic governments. Shame. Where will I get my extra eye-balls then.

Well, THAT was the lamest piece of 'logic' I've heard today. Congratulations. Are you telling me that "Democracy" prevents corruption? I think the grand experiment in America has proven that to be a completely false notion. And you know that too.

For some reason everyone ignores at least 8 years of rockets shot from the Gaza strip onto the (civilian) cities of Israel. The most recent rocket was shot today. I recently read that Hamas responded to the Goldstone report by saying they were aiming at military installations, and were just lacking the accuracy to not just miss and kill civilians.

The reason everybody ignores the 'rocket' attacks from the Gaza strip is that it's a pathetic excuse on many levels. The ones I find most compelling are the ones where the Mossad are implicated in bomb attacks on their own country.

Finally, since *I* am also interested in your moral-welfare, I'd recommend also boycotting China, for a simple reason.
Consider the population of the People's Republic of China - 1,338,612,968 (2010 estimate - Wikipedia). Consider the population
of the so called Palestinian Arabs - let's upper bound it with 5,000,000 (could only find 1,500,202 in the Gaza strip). So, basically, if Chinese suffer more than ~0.37 percent of Palestinian's suffer, you're better off with boycotting PRC.

That's a sick and twisted argument to excuse not just Israeli violence, but violence of any kind. "Well, THEY'RE doing it!" I sincerely hope you're joking. (Though given your apparent desire to excuse and smooth over Israeli genocidal tendencies, I think you ARE both joking and not getting why it's sick. Dissected any cats when you were small?).

-FL

Oh boy! Nice cheap shot there! So glad we've all moved past that. Now lets talk about the time that GWB was so classy that he flipped the bird to that camera. How about when he oh-so-slickly commented about a certain member of the press, Adam Clymer, not minding that the microphone was still on? Or when Chanukah cards were sent with Christmas trees on them? I could go on if you'd like.

Let's start with Iran facts: Iran has been building nuclear power facilities for years and has a long history of allowing independent inspections of any requested facility. None of the inspections have shown weapons development. Iran supports a nuclear weapons-free zone in the Middle East.

Israeli government and military facts: Israeli military has nuclear weapons (there's enough evidence to convince, among others, the US assistant secretary of defense). The Israeli government refuses to agree to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and refuses inspections. The Israeli military bombed a Syrian nuclear energy plant in 2007. The Israeli government and military have plans to use nuclear weapons on Iran.

And just to show that no one is pure: Iranian and Israeli military jets bombed a nuclear reactor in Iraq in 1980 and 1981. When it comes UN inspections of nuclear energy and weapons production facilities, is the US as open as Iran? The US demands some other countries account for all fissionable material but can it account for its own? Does the US support nuclear free zones on its own continent, or is that just for others? In your opinion is the US government being fair or hypocritical?

Let's move on to FUD: The Israeli government and military have fears that Iran will develop nuclear weapons. If, and this is a civilization threatening "if," bombing nuclear facilities that produce energy but could be used to develop weapons is allowed, then every nuclear facility in every country is a risk and could (should?) be bombed by any country. This is a policy so stupid it could only be inspired by private greed for power and supported through public fear; with no apparent concern for consequences.

Iran currently has oil and gas energy available, and could cheaply use those instead of nuclear power. Perhaps, though, the people of Iran are aware of the limited availability and the climate warming effects from burning oil and gas as established by climate scientists. So Iran has chosen a climatically safer energy source (which has its own serious issues). Like every government Iran's is not perfect, but on this issue its respect for inspections, nuclear weapons-free zone, and rational energy plans makes it a better example than a target.

Proof:
http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/proof-israeli-effort-to-destabilize-iran-via-twitter/

Anatomy of Iran's Right Wing Coup:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/06/anatomy_of_iran/

Ahmadinijad as counterrevolutionary - There will be Blood:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/06/iran_there_will/

Ahmadinijad is now opposed by all of the significant Mullahs - who led the 79 revolution. Why? because he - and the Revolutionary Guard - are Israeli puppet-creations. They are now ready to do Mossad's dirty work. "Mahmoud" is Jewish. But you can't see FNORDS, can you?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129649

http://www.rferl.org/content/Were_Ahmadinejads_Ancestors_Jews_/1375318.html

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/top-iranian-figure-says-ahmadinejads.html#links

(IsraelNN.com) The Israeli Navy Monday morning blocked a Libyan ship trying to challenge Israeli sovereignty over Gaza coastal waters by landing at Gaza with 3,000 tons of food and medicine. The Foreign Ministry confirmed that it stopped the ship around dawn and that no force was necessary. "The Navy warned the ship that it was approaching prohibited waters and it decided to turn back," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levi said.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128625

In late August, two boats arrived in Gaza despite Israeli threats to stop them. Israeli Foreign Ministry officials said at the time that there had been a last-minute decision to let the boats through to avoid a public relations debacle at sea, and not to play into the hands of people they described as provocateurs. This time, too, Israeli officials had stated that the boat would not be allowed to reach Gaza, and that the Free Gaza trips would not become routine. Yet the boat was allowed to proceed without hindrance once again. "It was decided at the highest levels to allow them to enter," said Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, without further explanation.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/29/mideast/mideast.php

Dignity, a small boat carrying activists, was allowed to sail into Gaza on Tuesday, less than a week after the navy stopped a Libyan cargo ship from entering the Palestinian port and after police prevented a group of Israeli Arabs from embarking for the Strip from Jaffa. Palestinian fishermen welcome... Palestinian fishermen welcome a boat carrying members of a previous activist ship, upon its arrival at Gaza port earlier this month. The boat left Cyprus on Monday night, and was organized by the Free Gaza Movement, which has successfully sailed three ships into the Strip in recent months.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728125788

If Israel doesn't want you moving goods into Gaza, you are going to find it very difficult to do so...

--It would certainly go a distance in explaining the actions of some of the supposedly fundamentalist Islamic terrorists in the prelude to the grand 9-11 performance acting in ways most un-Islamic. (Booze and Cocaine and Women [gnn.tv] won't win the devout many points with Allah.) So what's the story here? Were they fundamentalist terrorists, or were they dupe mercenaries who didn't know what they were signing up for, and who were allowed to bring off their clutzy plan while the US secret services conveniently looked the other way [tvnewslies.org], while the secret/shadow government [washingtonpost.com] provided access to the remote controlled [911review.com] jets actually capable of performing the precision flying which badly-trained mercenary goof-balls could not have been asked to manage, and while the Israeli-owned security companies [whatreallyhappened.com] which held contracts at each of the airports involved during 9-11, gave them fast-lane service at the boarding check points?

There is a great antidote to some of that confusion: Debunking 9/11 Myths

Dudes with bombs and box-cutters working independently is still the false reality which needs to be understood here. The myth of terrorists is the preferred tool for building the fascist state. Luckily, this is increasingly well understood. It's the 'How' which seems to be causing some hiccups.

Here are some victories the good guys won against terrorism around the world in the last couple of weeks (this list doesn't include terrorist attacks):

11 suspected Islamic radicals arrested in Spanish African enclave
Spain arrests Chechen rebel suspect wanted in Russia
Turkey Arrests Suspected Regional Al Qaeda Leader
Turkey arrests 10 with suspected links to al-Qaeda
Pakistan arrests 47 suspected Taliban
13 foreign nationals arrested in S. Afghanistan
Police Claim Arresting Taliban Commander in Ghazni
Pakistanis Arrest 90 Afghans at Border
Saudi detains 139 suspected militants
Security forces scrambled to disrupt Asian summit terror plots
Court freezes Islamic group's bank account
Top aide of Qaeda chief in Iraq killed
Morocco jails 14 Islamists
Eight French Islamists Returned To France
4 Dutch Muslims Convicted of Terror Plan
and another trial: Denmark: Muslim terror trial begins
Terrorist plot targeting Illinois mall foiled
Man accused in Taliban arrest ordered held without bail
And reaching back just a little further just to inc

Why bother when you're allowed to torture people?

Given enough time, you get these guys to say anything you want.
Why waste all that effort to find the guilty, when you can just pick someone and beat them until they admit their guilt or agree to testify to someone else's guilt?

Why you clever fellow, that is an interesting solution: just manufacture it all with torture. There is a minor problem in that real torture isn't legal. It also has the disadvantage of getting you absolutely no useful information about real terrorists if you are just picking innocent victims to torture to confession, doesn't it? That could be a problem if there really are terrorists in the world, because they will be making plots, blowing up things, and getting away while you are working over some poor innocent bastard you picked up off the street. If there really is a terrorist problem in the world, you are doing worse than nothing about it.

So what if the actual terrorists blow up a few more things, it only confrims that you need even more power to persue them!

Well, until the voters figure out you are a bunch of knobs and put the other party in power. Democracies tend to be rather practical in that way. And when the other party comes into power, your problems are just beginning. If you've been wasting the governments efforts on torturing the innocent, instead of performing real counterterrorist investigations, the terrorists will be likely be worse off as well. See how long you are out of power then.

I'm not necessarily saying that's what happened here, but when you look at the big picture, it sure looks really bad.

Then what the hell did you write this crap for? "Why bother when you're allowed to torture people?"

How about this for an answer: Because there are real terrorists and screwing around is only going to get people killed!

Well, don't worry your pretty head too much. If we don't win, there are some folks, our would be overlords, so to speak, who will straighten out society. We may not care for it so much, but at least the rules will be clear. Torture will definitely be in the new OK list, along with beheading, stoning, amputations, crucifixion, whipping, and all of that. The underpinnings of it, Sharia, is already getting some traction in Britain: Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes. We'll have to see how the whole Londonisan thing works out.

By the way, for your edification, here are a few incidents from the last couple of weeks from all over the world where the good guys won in some fashion (I know some of you are snickering) (Note that I didn't list the ones in which the bad guys won.). What do you think this means for the question of the existence of terrorists?

11 suspected Islamic radicals arrested in Spanish African enclave
Spain arrests Chechen rebel suspect wanted in Russia
Turkey Arrests Suspected Regional Al Qaeda Leader
Turkey arrests 10 with suspected links to al-Qaeda
Pakistan arrests 47 suspected Taliban
13 foreign nationals

Actually, I was thinking of things like:

CNN's love affair with Hizb'allah

and

Reuters stringer participating in attacks.

There are TONS more, and on a broader range of subjects, but there is a limit to how much homework I'll do for others.

It was just a few hours ago that "infidel" homes and Jews were being rocketed and shot for the cause of Islam.

Islam merely haven't had their Martin Luther (yet).

Gush Katif (Jewish Gaza)

Bush supports Hamas

Bush pushes Israel to "Auschwitz borders"

Pay attention.

Gush Katif (Jewish Gaza)

Bush supports Hamas

Bush pushes Israel to "Auschwitz borders"

Pay attention.

Bizarrely, the Arab League claims that this move by Israel is a violation of international law. No, I'm not kidding.

Oddly, the Arab league isn't happy. Go figure.

A menorah was also lit in South Korea, where U.S. military officials said a ten-foot-tall jet-fuel-powered menorah was lit late Friday afternoon, the first night of Chanukah.

"Bullshit. We need militay to defend against possible attackers. Also, we have a track record of REBUILDING a country we levied war against. Also the tax cust are needed because small and up businesses SHOULD NOT CARRY ALL THE WEIGHT of welfare and related services.

You have GOT to be kidding me. We've got an arsenal that exceeds overkill. You want to defend against possible attackers, don't kill civilians in an occupation that is not justified by the UN. Another great step in preventing these attacks would be to not have such an offensive foreign policy. We're now finding out that the American people were lied to about WMD in iraq and an "iminent threat" to the US. We overspend by TRILLIONS to keep at bay phony enemies and fight phony wars. I'm sure the 243 dead US soldiers are glad that they've changed little to nothing for most US citizens, spare those who now protest against the war. But it's OK, our generation needed another Vietnam.

On rebuilding, I'll just say that we wouldn't have to rebuild Iraq if we hadn't wasted money bombing the shit out of civilian targets so Presidents Stuffyournose could have a higher approval rating

And onto the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time, Bush's tax cuts did NOTHING to help the economy, not for business owners, (especially not for small business owners), not for the common Joe, and not for anyone, with the exception of a few already wealthy elite upper-class citizens.

"AIDS would have been stopped, have they QUARANTEENED all known AIDS cases at onset. The GAY orginizations didnt like that at all. Then it went from gay disease to a regualr STD."

First of all, it's "QUARANTINE", way to show your ignorance. Secondly, and more importantly, AIDS was never a gay only disease, nope, not from the beginning. Many of the first diagnosed AIDS patients were straight women, and that's an incontrovertible fact. Shouldn't you be burning a cross or heiling somewhere?

Putting AIDS patients in quarantine would do nothing to stop the spread. As is the case with most STDs, people often don't know they have them until they've spread. THE ONLY WAY to prevent the spread of AIDS is with improved education and healthcare methods. You're a shining star of the miseducation of the common person with regards to AIDS. Because of pressure from conservatives like yourself, education about AIDS was delayed in many communities. In urban areas in the 80's many thought that AIDS was like a cold that would go away with time. Others tried such obscene methods as treating their genitals with bleach before intercourse or the long-standing-Judeo-Christian-favorite pull-out method. Not educating people ended up increasing the spread. In areas with functional healthcare systems and increased education incidents of AIDS are rising slower than in other areas. That's right, they're still RISING in most areas.

As long as people such as yourself continue to stigmatize the disease infection rates will continue to rise. Johnny football hero will be to afraid to get tested after he was too cool to use a condom, and he'll probably infect four or five girls before his little "secret" comes out.

I'm sure you've muttered under your breath about how GAY and POOR and LIBERAL I am by now. Just to let you know, I am none of the three, I just keep an open mind and LEARN before making a decision or forming an opinion. You want to see how much of a GAY disease AIDS is, go volunteer at your local AIDS clinic, I doubt bigotry such as yours could withstand the obvious reality that stares you in the face.

• General news
• • Drudge Report
  • Google News
  • Jerusalem Post
  • JCPA Daily Alert (a thorough digest of world terrorism-related news, with links)
• News/commentary/multimedia
• • Rush Limbaugh, includes about an hour of free audio clips, updated daily
  • Arutz Sheva (Channel Seven) news - on-demand video
  • Arutz Sheva talk shows - on-demand audio (most popular is "Mid-East at the Crossroads")
  • Foundation for the Defense of Democracy - news and views
• War for Peace
• • the brain terminal
  • the dissident frogman (required reading for the French)
• Tech
• • /.
  • MozillaZine
  • Win Informant
  • MozillaNews' Bonsai Watch (a better alternative to using Bugzilla to see the most recent checkins)
• Search
• • Google
  • Dictionary.com
  • Bible Gateway

• General news
• • Drudge Report
  • Google News
  • Jerusalem Post
  • JCPA Daily Alert (a thorough digest of world terrorism-related news, with links)
• News/commentary/multimedia
• • Rush Limbaugh, includes about an hour of free audio clips, updated daily
  • Arutz Sheva (Channel Seven) news - on-demand video
  • Arutz Sheva talk shows - on-demand audio (most popular is "Mid-East at the Crossroads")
  • Foundation for the Defense of Democracy - news and views
• War for Peace
• • the brain terminal
  • the dissident frogman (required reading for the French)
• Tech
• • /.
  • MozillaZine
  • Win Informant
  • MozillaNews' Bonsai Watch (a better alternative to using Bugzilla to see the most recent checkins)
• Search
• • Google
  • Dictionary.com
  • Bible Gateway

Is It Time to Move to Canada?

What a real mate would tell Bush

Beating the drums for justice: Calls for Bush's impeachment for 9-11

USA Oui! Bush Non!

Between Bush, Bin Laden & Hitler

German leader links Bush's 'style' to Hitler's

Judging war crimes, then and now

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

Little evidence??? I've never seen such willful blindness. I don't know if it's worth my time to counter this. How have you missed all of Bush's speeches, Blair's dossier of declassified intelligence, the numerous denunciations of Saddam by the U.N., and lots of other information coming out from nations around the world? When evidence against Saddam is presented to you guys, it's like putting an eye chart in front of a pack of moles.

Look, Saddam murders his own family members to prove his ruthlessness to potential dissendents. A close advisor once joked to Saddam that he step down from the "presidency." No smiles from Saddam. That guy's gone. And his family.

Saddam's goal is to be worshipped by his subjects. (Yes, subjects, not citizens.) The latest election is proof of this. Some voters pricked their fingers to mark their selection with blood. (In Old Testament-based religion, the shedding of blood signifies the making of a covenant.) He commands an awful lot of power. Saddam even manipulates the U.S. media. Btw, can anybody provide a link to a transcript or summary of any of the Iraqi election debates? I somehow missed them.

There's been lots of news that Saddam is linked to bin Laden and Palestinian terrorists. These guys are a threat to everybody. It is their explicitly stated goal to destroy the United States. As far as they're concerned, a country either converts to their religion or is targeted for destruction. They call us the Great Satan. They want to kill us. There's absolutely no question about it. What part of "We will kill you!" don't you understand?

Maybe pictures will convince you.

Or a video:
Broadband
56K
28K

Little evidence??? I've never seen such willful blindness. I don't know if it's worth my time to counter this. How have you missed all of Bush's speeches, Blair's dossier of declassified intelligence, the numerous denunciations of Saddam by the U.N., and lots of other information coming out from nations around the world? When evidence against Saddam is presented to you guys, it's like putting an eye chart in front of a pack of moles.

Look, Saddam murders his own family members to prove his ruthlessness to potential dissendents. A close advisor once joked to Saddam that he step down from the "presidency." No smiles from Saddam. That guy's gone. And his family.

Saddam's goal is to be worshipped by his subjects. (Yes, subjects, not citizens.) The latest election is proof of this. Some voters pricked their fingers to mark their selection with blood. (In Old Testament-based religion, the shedding of blood signifies the making of a covenant.) He commands an awful lot of power. Saddam even manipulates the U.S. media. Btw, can anybody provide a link to a transcript or summary of any of the Iraqi election debates? I somehow missed them.

There's been lots of news that Saddam is linked to bin Laden and Palestinian terrorists. These guys are a threat to everybody. It is their explicitly stated goal to destroy the United States. As far as they're concerned, a country either converts to their religion or is targeted for destruction. They call us the Great Satan. They want to kill us. There's absolutely no question about it. What part of "We will kill you!" don't you understand?

Maybe pictures will convince you.

Or a video:
Broadband
56K
28K

Little evidence??? I've never seen such willful blindness. I don't know if it's worth my time to counter this. How have you missed all of Bush's speeches, Blair's dossier of declassified intelligence, the numerous denunciations of Saddam by the U.N., and lots of other information coming out from nations around the world? When evidence against Saddam is presented to you guys, it's like putting an eye chart in front of a pack of moles.

Look, Saddam murders his own family members to prove his ruthlessness to potential dissendents. A close advisor once joked to Saddam that he step down from the "presidency." No smiles from Saddam. That guy's gone. And his family.

Saddam's goal is to be worshipped by his subjects. (Yes, subjects, not citizens.) The latest election is proof of this. Some voters pricked their fingers to mark their selection with blood. (In Old Testament-based religion, the shedding of blood signifies the making of a covenant.) He commands an awful lot of power. Saddam even manipulates the U.S. media. Btw, can anybody provide a link to a transcript or summary of any of the Iraqi election debates? I somehow missed them.

There's been lots of news that Saddam is linked to bin Laden and Palestinian terrorists. These guys are a threat to everybody. It is their explicitly stated goal to destroy the United States. As far as they're concerned, a country either converts to their religion or is targeted for destruction. They call us the Great Satan. They want to kill us. There's absolutely no question about it. What part of "We will kill you!" don't you understand?

Maybe pictures will convince you.

Or a video:
Broadband
56K
28K