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$30,000? The AVERAGE new US vehicle is over $36K this year. The fact that you're having to dip so far down the distribution curve to make your argument actually makes the EVs are here argument.

I will happily pay a bit more than average for awesome acceleration, quiet ride, state of the art functions, to never again have to visit a gas station, and to not have to be dealing with the thousands of dollars and multiple weeks in the shop that I've been encountering on our 100K mile ICE vehicle every year despite the fact that it isn't driven more than 10K miles in a year. I have noted that the majority of the post-warranty maintenance cost that people have been encountering on EVs are costs that I rarely bother to incur on my ICE. The story we are getting on EV repairs right now is from an unusually high class owner since prices have only recently dipped low enough to get the story from an average level owner. 100% of my ICE repairs that eat me alive are drive train related but only because that's all that has been important enough to repair. What normal driver actually fixes the dents, dings, scratches, etc that vehicles accumulate over time? The vehicle only has to go about 14 years because that is when virtually every rubber and plastic part in the vehicle starts failing in my climate due to age regardless of mileage, and it has to be dumped. If it reliably drives and I'm not getting wet inside, I'm good. I'm not rich.

The top income bracket (the 1%) pulls in about $2 trillion dollars. 0.001% of that gets you $20 million. On an average year, Americans purchase about 17 million vehicles, so your tax will save approximately $1.18 on the sticker price of each vehicle.

Now, if we expand to, say, the top 25% we get a figure of $6.7 trillion. 0.001% of that gets you $67 million, or about $3.94 per car.

"Screw that," you say, "I was just throwing out a number. Increase the tax by 1%". Now we're talking real numbers! A 1% surtax on the top 1% could (theoretically) pull in $20 billion dollars! Split among cars and you get... $1,180 per car. The average car in January 2018 was $36,270, so you would drop that to $35,090.

Whoo hoo! That makes the car only... $180 more than the same car in January 2017. And that's not including the cost to hit the new emissions and safety targets your tax was supposed to cover.

I disagree. I took a look at the Kelley Blue Book numbers for a 2017 Honda Accord. (warning - site will require you to disable your ad blocker). At a purchase price of $27,500 I'd hardly consider it a "super economical" car

At 15,000 miles/year, the cost of ownership is $0.49 per mile over 5 years. The marginal cost of putting more miles on the car is cheap. Bump that up to 40,000 miles/year and the cost of ownership drops to $0.24 per mile over 5 years. Other cars in the class (Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry) come in at a similar price.

To get up to $0.75-$1 per mile, I had to look at a BMW 3 series at 15,000 miles/year. At 40,000 miles/year, it's down to $0.40 per mile.

I disagree. I took a look at the Kelley Blue Book numbers for a 2017 Honda Accord. (warning - site will require you to disable your ad blocker). At a purchase price of $27,500 I'd hardly consider it a "super economical" car

At 15,000 miles/year, the cost of ownership is $0.49 per mile over 5 years. The marginal cost of putting more miles on the car is cheap. Bump that up to 40,000 miles/year and the cost of ownership drops to $0.24 per mile over 5 years. Other cars in the class (Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry) come in at a similar price.

To get up to $0.75-$1 per mile, I had to look at a BMW 3 series at 15,000 miles/year. At 40,000 miles/year, it's down to $0.40 per mile.

Look around you. How many luxury SUV's don't you see in the inner city? Mercedes, Lincoln, ... they cost about $65k and up. People don't seem to have any problem plunking down $50k+ for a car.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

According to Kelly Blue Book the average new car price in 2017 is $34,600 https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2017...

The only cars over $65K shown in the price breakdown are high-end luxury or performance.

By definition a luxury is not a necessity. The government subsidizing a luxury is nuts.

Most people replace their cars and trucks every 2-3 years. (Kelly Blue Book) Most business replaces their vehicles every 2-5 years (fleet depreciation).

The most recent data I could find from Kelly Blue Book is from 2012, but that had the average length of ownership at 6 years for new cars and more than 4 years for used cars, with those numbers trending up (some other reports from 2015 had the new car average up to 6.5 years). Unless something changed dramatically in the last 2 years (not sure how that could even be possible), your 2-3 year number is flat-out "pants on fire" wrong. Couple this with the increasing longevity of cars on the road (the median age is approaching 12 years) and you're looking at about 20 years to whittle down the current vehicle fleet to just collector pieces.

A year ago the average price for a new car was $33,666. The Model 3 is not be for the one percenters. http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c...

And they have lower margins. So, other companies in trouble too.

Regardless, the avg price of a new car is still over $33k.

http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c...

That shows the average compact car price is around $20K. Model 3 is a compact car.

And lower priced cars have lower margins.

Regardless, doesn't change the fact that the average price of a new car is still over $33k.

http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c...

And they have lower margins. So, other companies in trouble too.

Regardless, the avg price of a new car is still over $33k.

http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c...

My model S actually handles quite well in turns. It also is not surprisingly heavy for a car in its class, largely in part due to the all-aluminum body. Now the newer versions of my car have even better handling. My car weigh around 4700lbs (P85, 2013). A Lexus LS weighs between 4233 and 5115lbs according to Google.

Despite the weight, the car handling is supurb since all the weight is so low.

Most people do not buy new cars - they buy used cars. Really think about how many people you see driving this year's model and stop being asinine.

There are roughly 14-17 million new cars sold in the US every year. The average time they own them right now is 71.4 months. That's just shy of 6 years for those of you doing the math. So that is roughly 85+ million cars on the road at any given time in the US that have only had one owner.

Yes there is a big used car market too but every used car was purchased new at some point.

We went to trade in our 2009 Jetta gasoline car and found out that in the previous month KBB (Kelly Blue Book) http://www.kbb.com/ had dropped the trade in value from $6500 to $4000 in one month from this. It had nothing to do with diesel. I've personally lost $2500 to these assholes and will never buy another VW, let alone a diesel VW.

That's completely incorrect. The whole point of a destination charge is that it's equalized for all cars regardless of how far they were shipped. And GM doesn't manufacture all its cars in the US, BMW doesn't manufacture all its cars in Germany, and Toyota doesn't manufacture all its cars in Japan. And the cost of shipping from overseas is not included. http://www.kbb.com/car-advice/...

• #8 Honda CR-V
• #3 Dodge RAM Trucks (not technically SUVs but similar gas mileage)
• #2 Chevy Silverado (again a pickup, but similar mileage to an SUV)
• #1 Ford F-Series Trucks (as above)

Ferret

Silly Rabbit, Teslas are for the masses.

You must be insane. TrueCar shows me that the base price of a Tesla 2014 S is $70,890, and the "performance" version is $94,390. Kelley Blue Book puts the base price at $68,710 - $73,429. A car for the masses? A car for the lower end of the 1% more like it.

I started a post with the aim to thoroughly rebuke you and refute your claim. The first place I looked was a Google search for standard warranties which gives US manufacturers' warranties as about the same lengths as foreign warranties. Next I looked for how well manufcaturers actually stand by their warranties. The number of hate articles and lawsuits over various foreign and domestic manufacturers' warranties seems about the same. Cars still on the road is another way to look at reliability. After some research I have come to the conclusion that the oldest cars longevity isn't related to quality of manufacture but rather dedication of the owners, older common cars are foreign -- but that doesn't count toward my point since the increase in US manufacturers' quality is relatively recent -- and common cars aging on the road today are about the same across country of manufacture.*

The late 1980's and early 1990's saw Honda et al. Eating Ford's lunch and US manufacturers' advertising focused on brand recognition. Later ads focused on features. Since this is a case of competing against quality with features (and because Tesla) I'm not even going to contest that US manufacturers ever fell behind on features.

Foreign cars still dominate in the mileage category but that alone is insufficient to state in the grand sweeping way I did that US made cars are inferior.

In short I stand corrected. US manufacturers have fully caught up with foreign makers in most categories of vehicle quality.

*excluding outliers.

I started a post with the aim to thoroughly rebuke you and refute your claim. The first place I looked was a Google search for standard warranties which gives US manufacturers' warranties as about the same lengths as foreign warranties. Next I looked for how well manufcaturers actually stand by their warranties. The number of hate articles and lawsuits over various foreign and domestic manufacturers' warranties seems about the same. Cars still on the road is another way to look at reliability. After some research I have come to the conclusion that the oldest cars longevity isn't related to quality of manufacture but rather dedication of the owners, older common cars are foreign -- but that doesn't count toward my point since the increase in US manufacturers' quality is relatively recent -- and common cars aging on the road today are about the same across country of manufacture.*

The late 1980's and early 1990's saw Honda et al. Eating Ford's lunch and US manufacturers' advertising focused on brand recognition. Later ads focused on features. Since this is a case of competing against quality with features (and because Tesla) I'm not even going to contest that US manufacturers ever fell behind on features.

Foreign cars still dominate in the mileage category but that alone is insufficient to state in the grand sweeping way I did that US made cars are inferior.

In short I stand corrected. US manufacturers have fully caught up with foreign makers in most categories of vehicle quality.

*excluding outliers.

My problem was the roughly $5k premium vs a Corolla. If I was planning to keep a car for 10+ years, there may have been a payback, but I was likely looking at 5 years or less. There was no way the Prius was going to pay for itself in that time frame.

Were you planning on junking the car after five year or reselling it? What's the price difference between a five year old Corolla and a five year old Prius? When I last looked at used Prius prices, they were quite high - perhaps as much as $5k higher than Corollas. If so, the "premium" is not such a big deal.

Using Kelly Blue Book at http://www.kbb.com/ for cars in zip code 02134 cause I like "Zoom":
a 2007 Prius goes for $14,444
a 2007 Corolla CE Sedan 4D goes for $11,200

I don't know if these are the models one should compare, but the Pius premium for resale seems to be about $3244, to with that in mind, you would only need to have a "payback" of about $1746 over your use of the car. A couple of brake jobs and fuel savings might cover that over five years perhaps.

Of course none of this takes into account cash flow issues, inflation, taxes, rebates, loan costs, lost investment opportunities or anything like that - all of which would impact any comprehensive "total cost of ownership" type of calculations. But for short term ownership, the resale value differences are not insignificant.

Incidentally, from the same site, for new cars, the 2011 Prius base model new seems to be about $22,000 while the Corolla is $15,575, or about $6500 more expensive.

That would probably be because the "blue book" price is supposed to be for a vehicle in perfect condition, with no problems, and sold by a dealer.

That is completely false. The KBB includes values for vehicles in a variety of conditions as well as in a variety of situations including buying from a dealer or from a private party.

Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?

They already pay $28k for a car that has the same features as a Toyota Corolla. It's called a Prius.

From my random sample test, indeed the Taurus is on par.
(In case the link doesn't work:)
Ford Taurus 2010 (4d SE Sedan): 18 city / 28 highway.
Acura RDX 2010 (4d Sport) : 19 city / 24 highway.
Mazda MAZDA6 2010 (4d Sport) : 20 city / 29 highway.
Honda Accord 2009 (2d Coupe) : 22 city / 30 highway.

[NOTE: There were no Honda 2010 models to compare]

So not really. Fords claims have held for my test.

Here's something that's NOT anecdotal - the only way GM and Chrysler can now compete is by undercutting prices ... in other words, by using bail-out money to subsidize the sale of their crap cars, because if the price was the same, people would rather buy Asian, or even Ford.

http://mediaroom.kbb.com/kelley-blue-book-releases-2009-residual-value-analysis

2009 Best resale value brand: Honda.

2009 BEST RESALE VALUE: TOP 10 MODELS

Honda Civic/Civic Hybrid
Honda Fit
MINI Cooper
Scion xB
Scion xD
Scion tC
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Prius
Toyota Yaris
Volkswagen Rabbit

Toyota (Toyota + Scion brands) takes 6 of the top 10, Honda takes half of what's left, and the Germans (Volkswagen and BMW) take the rest.

To require this will result in extremely UNSAFE cars that no one wants to buy.

The 2006 Honda Civic almost reaches this level. It has the top rating in every IIHS crash test. The manufacturer is routinely rated at or near the top of the industry in reliability. The Civic's price is comparable to a typical American car. The 2009 Civic Hybrid already tops these standards under recently tightened milage measurements. There is no reason a 42mpg car has to be unsafe, unreliable, or overly expensive.

To require this will result in extremely UNSAFE cars that no one wants to buy.

The 2006 Honda Civic almost reaches this level. It has the top rating in every IIHS crash test. The manufacturer is routinely rated at or near the top of the industry in reliability. The Civic's price is comparable to a typical American car. The 2009 Civic Hybrid already tops these standards under recently tightened milage measurements. There is no reason a 42mpg car has to be unsafe, unreliable, or overly expensive.

We call them cooperatives here. I personally think cooperatives tend to be better for _everyone_ (customers, society) as a whole.

Seconded. Although, I don't get why they are more common here in the USA. (Are you in Canada or another country?) It's easy to find them here.

But you don't get mega payouts here. In fact, the stingy bunch don't even give you full resale value of your car (they do something like go through classifieds and look for the cheaper prices for that model - not exactly I guess but seems that way to me ).

I think those mega buyouts are rare. I don know anyone who's been on either end of one. Then again, I usually think people that are doing that are trying to scam the insurance company.

Well, I can go over this for USAA as my dad got his car totaled last month. Most payouts are based on the Blue Book value of the car. My dad's came out to about $8.5K from them, except it had been in an accident previously. The insurance company gave ~$7.5K. The only hard part in all this was finding out when the tow-truck was going to take the car away. Car was totaled in that it would cost more to fix than it's value, car was still drivable in that it would run.

Never had a problem here with them trying to cheat us.

http://kbb.com/ Didn't work for several months but looks to be fixed. That was the one that stuck out in my head because I was trying to get my mother to look up here car value. She was in Safari I was in FF I couldn't figure out why it wasn't working for her.

It does look like it's been fixed. There were several others, many internal corp sites, last time I tried to switch to Safari 2-3 months ago and gave up.

Safari is just not a worthy cause when FF is already open source, free, currently developed, good and "Just Works"

I have found Safari to be almost completely unusable.

I have found Safari to be almost completely unusable. Sites like http://kbb.com/ wont let you look up certain car values. some web controlled APC power strips we have wont even display the first page, and http://www.az501st.com/ most of the menu's don't work.

Even with the considerable increase in car payment, the vehical is cheaper (and less fustrating) to drive with regular maintenance and lower insurance than trying to get a "deal" on something "cheap". Paying to get the "prime" life of the car is worth every penny. I won't be running out to buy a new one in 3 years, but this one's been a really good deal so far.

While it may be more convenient and "less frustrating" to own a new car, I doubt that it is cheaper. It has been amply demonstrated that buying a two- or three-year-old car is much less expensive per year and per mile--especially if one is planning to drive it until the wheels fall off.

Kelly Blue Book's site indicates that purchasers are paying an average of $24,431 for a 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan SE; a comparably-equipped 2005 with 28,000 miles (about one sixth of the life of the car) is $16,650 from a dealer, and $13,550 from a private seller.

5/6ths of $24,431 is $19,525, nearly $3000 more over the life of the car than if you bought the car from a dealer, and nearly $6000 more than if you bought it from a private seller.

A 2003 Navigator with the standard package and in "Good" condition is worth almost exactly $25k in Orange County, CA for a private party sale. http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ucp?kbb.CA;;CA0 59;&92702&;899700&;;ucp;LT;A1

"when I can fire up the beast"

I'm sorry- you're talking about a FIERO, right?
$2500 is more than the car is worth.
For that money you might want to consider investing in something else...

You didn't include trim to remove price bias.

What I can find is a Civic LX manual @ 32/38mpg $15,029
vs
a Civic Hybrid manual @ 46/51 mpg $20,041

The LX manual is missing: 4 wheel anti-lock brakes, side airbags, alloy wheels. You better factor that into the "hybrid premium".

If you removed those from the Hybrid, the difference would probably be reduced to ~$2K or so, and that's not counting the different electronics/displays inside.

Now calculate the gas savings recovery from that..

You didn't include trim to remove price bias.

What I can find is a Civic LX manual @ 32/38mpg $15,029
vs
a Civic Hybrid manual @ 46/51 mpg $20,041

The LX manual is missing: 4 wheel anti-lock brakes, side airbags, alloy wheels. You better factor that into the "hybrid premium".

If you removed those from the Hybrid, the difference would probably be reduced to ~$2K or so, and that's not counting the different electronics/displays inside.

Now calculate the gas savings recovery from that..

It is also interesting to see the most popular web sites. Start by typing www. into google suggest. The top 10 are:

1. www.yahoo.com - Search/Directory
2. www.hotmail.com - Email
3. www.google.com - Search
4. www.ebay.com - Shopping
5. www.msn.com - Portal
6. www.aol.com - Portal
7. www.ebay.co.uk - Shopping
8. www.irs.gov - Government
9. www.mapquest.com - Maps
10. www.amazon.com - Shopping

Typing one more letter shows you the top sites for that letter. Here is the top for each letter:

• a is for www.aol.com - Portal
• b is for www.bbc.co.uk - News
• c is for www.cnn.com - News
• d is for www.dictionary.com - Reference
• e is for www.ebay.com - Shopping
• f is for www.food.gov.uk - Government
• g is for www.google.com - Search
• h is for www.hotmail.com - Email
• i is for www.irs.gov - Government
• j is for www.juno.com - Internet service provider
• k is for www.kbb.com - Consumer information
• l is for www.lyrics.com - Music
• m is for www.msn.com - Portal
• n is for www.nick.com - Kids
• o is for www.orbitz.com - Travel
• p is for www.pogo.com - Games
• q is for www.qvc.com - Shopping
• r is for www.rotten.com - Information
• s is for www.sears.com - Shopping (sorry slashdot)
• t is for www.target.com - Shopping
• u is for www.usps.com - Government
• v is for www.verizon.com - Telephone service
• w is for www.weather.com - Weather
• x is for www.xanga.com - Blogs
• y is for www.yahoo.com - Portal
• z is for www.zappos.com - Shopping

This is some random commentary to make sure that my post has enough characters per line on average to get by the lameness filter. Just a few more words should do it. Then I will be over the limit. Maybe you would like to hear a bit about my projects: Attesoro - A internationalization editor for Java programs. Coinmill - A currency conversion website with many currencies, and features such as abilty to parse English sentences asking for currency conversion. Java Utilities - Utilities for common task in the Java programming language such as parsing CSV files and string manipulation.

http://www.kbb.com/kbbmedia/index.asp?pg=release&y ear=2005&date=6-27

Out of the basket of cars, I doubt they 'lost money'. It's really had to say. You're probably right. Every dealer says he's, 'losing money' ;-)
But a brand new Toyota Camry V-6 LE automatic for under $19K seemed like a pretty good deal.

You're onto something profound. Let me give you a few quick observations on why MANY folks make over 40K (national average) yet have little to show for it except debts:

• Folks like to lease or buy NEW cars. Go to http://www.kbb.com/ and compare a 2005 SUV with the same model from 2001. Right, after four (4) years, it's worth less than 50%. So, that "0% APR" you got wasn't actually 0, now was it. It's not as bad as Enron stock, but it's that great either. Hope you enjoy your car. I got a 3 year old car with 15K on it. I can't tell the difference. Paid cash so no payments (2001 Buick Century, paid $8K a yr ago).
• Studies show that using plastic (Credit cards) causes you to spend more than paying cash. I know this is true for ME. It physically HURTS to spend those Franklins... My brain rapidly correlates each portait on those bill with the AMOUNT of work required to get them in the first place. I can swipe plastic all day and only worry about it in passing. Needless to say, we have $$$ in debit cards - which can be used as VISA. Haven't had a card payment in years.
• Written budget is the only way you can tell your money where to go INSTEAD of worndering where it went. Go to http://www.daveramsey.com/ and download a few shows from archives and give a listen. Which brings me to my last point:
• Most of those under 50 do NOT have money skills. For their own use OR to teach to their kids. I grew up not learning anything about managing my money. I learned along the way the hard way. Can you say Discover? Can you say paycheck-to-paycheck. I knew you could. I haven't done that in about three (3) years. I sleep at night like a baby now.

Listen to Dave. He's on over 250 stations in the US and also on XM and Sirious (or however you spell that :)

Cheers,
Fil

P.S. I like the Baby Steps:

1. 1000$ in cash - emergency fund + cut up cards
2. Write a written budget where you spend ALL money on paper before the month begins
3. While staying current with all debts, list them smallest to largest (except house), and attack smallest with a vengance. When it's paid off, apply its payment to next on the list until all paid off.
4. increase emergency fund to 3-6 months of living expenses
5. start paying off house/saving for house, saving 15% for retirement, etc.

We're on #5. Started with #1. Try it! It works!

IIRC, on Kelly Blue Book Online, there are links to services (free? paid?) that can provide the entire life history of a car.

http://www.kbb.com/

Difference? Both have 4 wheels, 2 axels, 1 engine, a frame, suspension, steering system, breaks(In theory anyway, but thats another rant). Everything else is fluff. For my money I'll take the Ford Festiva for $2,575 so I can drive to and from school over the Rolls. :D

>FYI, the resale value of a 1990 Toyota Tercel versus a 1990 Escort is the same.

The Toyota is _still_ worth 10% more, even though it is a complete POS at that point (and Tercels are pretty crappy anyways [coming from someone who once drove one], if you want a cheap Toyota, you buy the tried and tested Corolla [driving one now] Just don't forget to get the improved sound system).

Anyways, you can look it up in the Blue Book for yourself.

>FYI, the resale value of a 1990 Toyota Tercel versus a 1990 Escort is the same.

The Toyota is _still_ worth 10% more, even though it is a complete POS at that point (and Tercels are pretty crappy anyways [coming from someone who once drove one], if you want a cheap Toyota, you buy the tried and tested Corolla [driving one now] Just don't forget to get the improved sound system).

Anyways, you can look it up in the Blue Book for yourself.

• wire a mouse to an odometer to measure miles traveled
• put a temperature gauge on the case to measure the heat inside
• use a fuel gauge to measure free disk space

Just for reference, doing the 1/4 mile in 9.8 seconds is faster than a specially modified 777 horsepower Viper (which took 11.4 seconds). And, to give you an idea about how much horsepower that Viper has, consider that a Honda Accord has 150 horsepower.

Alex Bischoff

I'll second the Edmunds advice. I also used Kelly's blue book when I bought my car

Most dealers are onto the internet. That is they know that you know their price. Some (but by no means all) have realised that you know their fair profit and try to get things done quickly at a good price. After all, if you know their numbers they have to haggel different.

Two days ago I test drove a '95 S10. I liked it, so I drove it home, hit the internet and looked up the values. I then walked into the dealer with the knowledge of what they paid and what they expected to get it for. Since I knew my trade in better then them I was able to make them an offer that included a fair profit for them and a good price for me. I was out in an hour (and it only took that long because my trade-in was in my dads name yet, so I had wait for him to get that paperwork)

I would recomend using your local dealer first. That is do the research on the internet, and then walk into the lcoal dealer and make a fair offer. If they don't take it walk - if they don't call back in a day changing their mind (This is a common practice) check the internet. Although dealers are big buisness, they are local, and I like to support the local guy if possibal.