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The reason for this is that 180 to 190 degrees fahrenheit is the proper serving temperature for coffee.

No it is not.

The proper serving temperature for coffee is about 140 F according to the National Coffee Association, you know, the people who are more interested in the quality of the coffee than how far you can carry the coffee while staying above that temperature in poorly insulated cheap paper cups.

Name one organization that advocates serving coffee at 180 F, and provide a link. You won't be able to find one.

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

The temperature of the McDonalds coffee machine specified in the lawsuit (195 F) was within the temperature range recommended by the National Coffee Association and Bunn, the largest manufacturer of coffee brewing machines sold in the U.S. 195 - 205 F.

The legal team for the woman surveyed temperatures of coffee machines at a half dozen restaurants nearby the McDonalds, and deceptively reported that temperatures at other restaurants were "as low as" 165 F. Which is a useless statement since one restaurant could've had a broken machine and the other 5 could've been serving coffee at a higher temperature than McDonalds and the statement still would've been true. This is classic tricky phrasing used by lawyers to mislead the jury. It's where the "20 degrees hotter" statement comes from. The adjective that belongs in front is "at most 20 degrees hotter," but because of the tricky way the lawyers phrased it people mistakenly think it's "at least". If their research had actually shown McDonalds was serving coffee too hot, they would've reported the temperature of all 6 other restaurants they surveyed, not just one.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

Those 700 incidents were over a period of something like 13 years when McDonalds sold billions of cups of coffee. I number crunched the statistics once. If you lived 5 miles from McDonalds and drove there to buy a cup of coffee and took it home, you were more likely to die in a traffic accident than to scald yourself by spilling their coffee. If their coffee was too dangerous for the public, then so is every car on the road.

I want to say the figure was 18 billion cups of coffee served in that time, but honestly I don't recall exactly. If the 18 billion figure is correct, then those 700 incidents are equivalent to buying a cup of coffee at McDonalds every day, and spilling it on yourself once every 70,000 years. If anything, McDonalds should be getting an award for making a portable and minimal hot beverage container so safe.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

Unfortunate, but ultimately irrelevant. The question isn't is hot coffee dangerous. Of course it is. So is hot tea,

The recommended temperature is between 155 and 175 for taste and comfort considerations.

National Coffee Association - 180-185
Coffee Detective - People prefer coffee served at between 155-175, with a massive preference towards 175. Of course, with the popularity of iced coffee drinks today, one might extend that down to 33F. ;)
Bunn: 175-185 Holding temp, 155-175 Serving

The thing to remember about McD coffee is that people often let it sit for a bit before drinking it - reaching the office, for example.

Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. Colder water will result in flat, underextracted coffee while water that is too hot will also cause a loss of quality in the taste of the coffee. If you are brewing the coffee manually, let the water come to a full boil, but do not overboil. Turn off the heat source and allow the water to rest a minute before pouring it over the grounds.

So, Umm....

The real thing to know here is that no one at the time did not know that McDonalds coffee was really hot. Many went there for that reason. Fuck that bitch.

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

"Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!
"Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit. It should never be left on an electric burner for longer than 15 minutes because it will begin to develop a burned taste. If the coffee is not to be served immediately after brewing, it should be poured into a warmed, insulated thermos and used within the next 45 minutes."

Sounds like McDonalds was doing it right. I guess the woman that burned herself was unfit to experience coffee. Are you?

You are misleading yourself..

185 F is the temperature of coffee the instant it is brewed.

135 F is the recommended serving temperature.

Ideally coffee should not be heated to maintain a temperature, as the heating cooks the coffee oils.

Combinations of the above three statements doesn't mean that coffee should be served at 185 F, ever.

Of course, for it to be served at 185 F, it had to be brewed at a higher temperature (about 210 F), which is really the kicker. McDonald's was alone in the world with this higher brewing temperature, which they implemented a few months prior to save about two cents per cup of coffee (you can use less grounds at 210F).

They also had other lawsuits of a similar nature (but not ones where the damage was so extensive) that they had settled, or were ongoing. In one of those other lawsuits, the Court ordered McDonald's to lower it's brewing temperature, and that Court order was ignored.

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

"Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!
"Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit. It should never be left on an electric burner for longer than 15 minutes because it will begin to develop a burned taste. If the coffee is not to be served immediately after brewing, it should be poured into a warmed, insulated thermos and used within the next 45 minutes."

Sounds like McDonalds was doing it right. I guess the woman that burned herself was unfit to experience coffee. Are you?

Oh dear. 180-190 F is 82-88 C. Not "double the temperature you make your coffee." (Which is also a nonsense statement based on the arbitrary Centigrade or Fahrenheit scale, rather than the absolute Kelvin scale.)

And FWIW, the National Coffee Association recommends holding the coffee at a temperature of 180-185 F prior to serving. Which is what the machines at McDonalds were set at. If you're serving your coffee at 140 F, you're doing it wrong.

The 700 burns were over the span of something like a dozen years and billions of cups served. When I did the math years ago, if you drove 5 miles round-trip to buy your cup of McDonalds coffee, you were more likely to die in a traffic accident than to be burned by spilling your McDonalds coffee. If their coffee was too dangerous for public consumption, then so are all cars.

The same article goes on to say "About 200 degrees Fahrenheit is the optimal temperature to make coffee," and the National Coffee Association agrees

Ah, its talking about the american version, not a real espresso made by forcing boiling water through the grounds. It means ideal if you want to avoid the real coffee favour.

Nonetheless, it often is. The same article goes on to say "About 200 degrees Fahrenheit is the optimal temperature to make coffee," and the National Coffee Association agrees, and goes on to say that "If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit."

So the point stands - 185 degrees shouldn't be an unexpected serving temperature.

From the "National Coffee Association of America" web site, Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. So you are wrong, the temperature they brewed and served it at was the right one (assuming they sell enough to be constantly brewing it so it doesn't cool down much if at all). If you are an idiot and place a hot coffee between your legs in a moving car, you are going to get burned. Maybe you are too delicate to drink hot drinks, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be prepared and served in the most optimal way for flavour. If the drink is too hot, let it cool down. But don't stick it between your legs while you are waiting and then sue someone for your fucking stupidity.

Ugh, I know I'm late on the reply, but I was out of town!

I will agree with you and the many others that agree that 180F is far too hot to serve a beverage that, at McDonald's, is served in a flimsy cup, and (was, they now add them) handed to the customer in a car. In fact, I'm one of those boneheads, having never owned a car with proper cupholders, that holds cups between the legs. And I drive stick.

However, courts since the Stella case have, on appeal, conceded that 180F is the proper temperature at which coffee is to be served. The National Coffee Association of the USA, Inc. indicates that coffee should be brewed with water in the range of 195-205 degrees for proper extraction, and should be served immediately. If it is not, it should be served within a temperature range of 180-185F. See their website.

As per your link, Stella and McDonald's ended up settling out of court. What the link does not indicate is that McDonald's had already begun the appeals process, and the parties settled out of court to end the appeal. It does seem odd that they left that fact out, otherwise, why would Stella have taken a settlement deal after she already had a jury verdict?

I have not intensely researched the subject, but the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has found that a coffee maker manufacturer was not liable for burns suffered by consumers of the machine's product. Here is the link to that. The first half is jurisdictional nonsense, the meat starts about halfway down.

The Court here didn't even use the National Coffee Association's recommended temperatures (because neither side of the case presented any sort of evidence about the proper temperature), but the Court did their own homework and came up with ANSI CM-1-1986, Standard 5.2.1 that says 170-205F, 2 minutes after brewing is the standard. Standard 5.2.3.2 states that the brew shall not be allowed to go beneath 170F while the carafe heater is still on.

Firstly, coffee should be hot: If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit. and secondly, of course you are right about the increasing maintenance costs, and adding this to the equation is what the exercise for the reader was about.

Not full of shit in the least.
The refusal of McDonald's to settle out of court is a non issue. I did not say that Liebeck was only in it for the money, I said she was at fault for her own injuries and not McDonald's. If McDonald's is not at fault, they have no cause to settle out of court. Clearly they believed they would win their case -- coffee being a hot beverage, and hot beverages being unsafe, and her performing an unsafe procedure with said unsafe beverage, how the hell could you hold McDonald's liable for that? The coffee was served hot. Coffee is hot. The container was not defective. Slam dunk, right? Weeelll.

It's not surprising in the least that the particular McDonald's in question lowered the temp on their coffee. They were pretty much required to -- after that case, if the coffee remained the same temp that was just declared unsafely hot and lost them a big hunk of cash, they would just be setting themselves up for another big loss of cash.

[quote]If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.[/quote]

source: http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

national coffee association. i bet they know a thing or two about coffee. i bet it lines up pretty damned smack-dab on with what i said. i bet i already knew that i know more about coffee than you do, but i bet i enjoy pointing it out anyway.

coffee in MY home is NOT served at 135-140 degrees. that's lukewarm coffee. now, if you take a good hot coffee, and add milk or creamer from your refrigerator, it'll probably drop that low.. but frankly (as I believe I said) that's a sin against good coffee.

Go to a local starbucks and buy a cup of coffee. Measure the temperature. Shit's HOT. I don't buy coffee from them because it's TOO hot. It's kept at the proper temp to make their mixed coffee drinks an appropriate temp, but not intended to be consumed black. Has anyone sued them for severe burns? Have any consumer protection agencies gone after them? No? Huh. I guess coffee's just fucking hot and you've gotta make sure not to burn yourself on it.

Trust me, I do feel bad for that old woman, but it's not McDonald's fault. I don't care what some jury found, you grab 12 people off the street and odds are good all 12 of them are non-reasoning imbeciles who reach judgements only through knee-jerk emotionality.

Fact is coffee is hot, and it's best served hot. I'm not saying that the contention that 180-190 is too hot to drink is incorrect -- it, in fact, IS correct -- but when you account for the shit people add to coffee, it becomes an ideal temperature. Coffee that's never too cold. At worst, you set it down for a few minutes and let it cool, if you're drinking it black. Coffee that's too hot is drinkable soon, but coffee that's too cool is never drinkable.

End of the day, that coffee would not have hurt her if she had not acted recklessly. Hold a non-rigid cup between your knees? Seriously? Go sue a car manufacturer because you got up over 100mph too fast and wrecked. I made an accurate car analogy, I win.

What is the money amount going to punish? They just calculate it into marketing budget.

Exactly. And next time they sit in the conference room discussing a new ad campaign, someone will note "let's not do Option B - last time it cost us $10 mil more than we expected. Options A and C will be much cheaper."

And by the way - the coffee wasn't just hot. It was exceptionally hot; scalding hot. During the court case it was noted that coffee served at home is usually 135 - 140 degrees. McDonald's required it's coffee to be maintained at 185 degrees plus or minus 5 degrees.

That's the proper temperature for hot coffee! Check this out:

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

The victim suffered 3rd degree burns - from coffee. Burns that are unlikely to come from coffee even at 155 degrees. In addition, McDonald's was aware of the safety involved with their policy and had been aware of it for 10 years with over 700 reports of injuries (including other cases of 3rd degree burns). This wasn't a simple case of getting rich with a frivolous lawsuit - it was clear negligence on McDonald's part. Investigations after the verdict showed local area McDonald's serving coffee at a much safer 158 degrees. Clearly the punitive damages worked.

Yeah, great, now it's harder to get a good cup of hot coffee served AT THE PROPER TEMPERATURE.

...warned McDonalds not to serve coffee above 130 degrees.

I would raise hell about being served lukewarm coffee due to some idiot's inability to handle a cup of coffee that was at 'fresh-brewed' temperature.

Also, see the National Coffee Association's website:

Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. Colder water will result in flat, underextracted coffee while water that is too hot will also cause a loss of quality in the taste of the coffee. If you are brewing the coffee manually, let the water come to a full boil, but do not overboil. Turn off the heat source and allow the water to rest a minute before pouring it over the grounds.[...]

Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!

Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit. It should never be left on an electric burner for longer than 15 minutes because it will begin to develop a burned taste. If the coffee is not to be served immediately after brewing, it should be poured into a warmed, insulated thermos and used within the next 45 minutes

[my emphasis]

So, as far as I am concerned, you can use your lukewarm, insipid liquid for a colonic...as in you know where you can put it!

Actually it should be hotter, about 195F-205F, according to the National Coffee Association of the USA.

They were, but at what rate?

The case was hugely exaggerated, as I remember it the coffee was somewhere between 120 and 180 degrees Fahrenheit. The optimal serving temperature for coffee is usually above 150 degrees Fahrenheit and sometimes suggested to be above 180.

Please use google to find several references to that fact via coffee carafe dealers throughout the world. Please refer to the link below in the section regarding temperature of coffee brewing and serving.

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

For a detailed review of the case and more links disputing your "urban legend" classification of this case:

http://www.overlawyered.com/2005/10/urban-legends-and-stella-liebe.html

Unfortunately, the lawyers won over the ignorant masses in this case, and now we reap the consequences. When the case went to trial, the first question I asked was, "What temp was the coffee?". When I heard 170degrees, I choffed. I had worked at a few coffee shops in the past and knew that coffee is served around this temperature at most places. It allows the coffee to be hot even to stay warm until it is finished, including adding milk, sugar, and possibly some drive time to it's destination.

Lets just destroy your ill-informed argument that McDonald's was irresponsible in serving their hot coffee hot.

You say the woman was severely burned by the coffee which was between 180 and 190 degrees. That is a stipulated fact, McDonald's coffee is served hot. Is it dangerously hot? It caused severe damage, so it was obviously dangerous. Was it irresponsibly hot?

Anyone purchasing coffee can have a reasonable expectation that it will be dangerously hot. The recommended serving temperature of coffee is from 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit. This is not considerably less than the 180-190 degree temperature at which McDonald's is established to have served coffee.

She did suffer bodily injury as a result of spilling McDonald's coffee on herself, but the culpability here does not rest on McDonald's. Just as with a set of steak knives, coffee is inherently dangerous.

What of the claim that McDonald's had foreknowledge of the danger inherent in their product and did nothing to warn consumers of that danger? Contrary to a common misconception, McDonald's coffee cups already contained the CAUTION:HOT disclaimer that has become so ubiquitous these days. So we are left with a transaction that caused an injury forseeable to all parties involved, one which was a risk inherent to the use of the product. Was this risk known to be substantially higher for McDonald's coffee than, say, a power drill or a set of steak knives?

To determine if McDonald's coffee is irresponsibly dangerous, it is highly informative to look at the history of the product. You have already informed us that McDonald's had over 700 reports over the last decade of coffee inflicted burns requiring medical attention, for which they had already paid about $500k. This means that 1 person, every 5 days, over the period of 10 years, was burned badly enough to require medical attention. Over that same 5 days, selling an inherently dangerous item at or about industry standards, McDonald's would have sold 24 million cups of coffee. If I sell an inherently dangerous product that results in paying out a claim to 1 of every 24 million people I sell one to, I wouldn't expect to labeled as behaving irresponsibly.

In summation:
1) Coffee is dangerously hot.
2) Everyone knows the coffee is dangerously hot.
3) Despite serving a dangerously hot product to anyone who wanted it, McDonald's' product caused an injury they paid money for after every 23,999,999 cups.

I don't know about you, but I don't expect to drink coffee that I can dump on myself and not expect to be severely injured by.

No reasonable person expects a "hot" cup of coffee to be 190 degrees Fahrenheit; they expect around 140 degrees at most.

Sorry. Wrong.

The National Coffee Association of U.S.A. Inc, (and who better to know coffee, eh?) says :
Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction....Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!...If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.
- http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

And even home coffee makers have similar temperatures. Check out some of their online user manuals. For example:
http://www.bunn.com/pdfs/retail/usecare/38865.0000_NHBX_U_C_English.pdf
Pay attention to page 3: "The water is approximately 50F hotter than what's available from your hot water faucet" (most hot water faucets are 140 deg. + 50 = 190!)
and page 7: "BUNN recommends you AVOID: ...
Re-heating for serving any coffee with a temperature below 175F."
oh- almost forgot page 6: "The patented ready-to-brew reservoir keeps water at the ideal brewing
temperature of approximately 200F."

So, despite what you think, a 'reasonable' person DOES expect hot coffee to be around 190 degrees. At least, if by 'reasonable' you mean 'can listen to the industry experts' and ' can read the fucking manual'.

Gah, everything else in your comment is spot on but people always bring the McCoffee thing up as an example of a frivolous lawsuit when it actually wasn't. The coffee was very hot, enough to cause serious burns (she needed skin grafts).

First the "facts" of the case as presented by the lawyers state that McDonalds held their coffee ready to serve at 180-190 F. I have found no evidence to substantiate their claim that other establishments served their coffee at 135-140 F prior to the lawsuit. You'll notice the page glosses over the temperature with a couple "factual" statements, then spends the rest of its time describing the burns and what temperatures are required to avoid them completely ignoring any requirements imposed by the coffee. That's the strategy they used during the trial to sway the jury.

The National Coffee Association of the U.S recommends the coffee be maintained at 180-185 F.

The Specialty Coffee Association of America recommends the coffee be held at 175-185 F (you have to buy their guidebooks to see the actual numbers so the link is not to their site).

Bunn, a major producer of coffee brewing and serving equipment recommends a holding temperature of 175-185 F and in fact recommends any coffee below 175 F be re-heated before serving. They also note that many of the aromatics will not evaporate at 150 F, thus depriving the coffee of its characteristic smell. This would appear to contradict the claim that other establishments served coffee at 135-140 F.

Starbucks sells coffee dispensing equipment which puts out coffee at 180 F.

The same manufacturer, DeLonghi produces a unit with a 150-200 F temperature setting, indicating the 155 F recommended by the lawyers' site is at the extreme bottom of preferred coffee serving temperatures, and IMHO unsuitably cool for coffee served at a drive-through which in most cases will not be consumed until after a 5-15 minute drive to a destination.

I'll repeat, this is a product which is meant to be served in a state which is dangerous if mishandled. What's next, airlines being sued because their planes fly at a speed which is fatal if there's an accident? Or power companies being sued because electrical lines can cause severe burns or fatality if mishandled? The lawsuit points out that 700 people were also burned by McDonalds coffee in the 10 years prior. But McDonalds served tens of billions of cups of coffee during the same time, leading to an incident rate of one in 24 million . If I were a safety engineer and my product had an incident rate of one in 24 million, I'd be ecstatic at how safe it was!

Also, America's National Coffee Association was responsible for requesting that the trademarks not be honored, not Starbucks.

Why yes, let us look at the real facts. Please forgive the next paragraph, which is necessary to foil the fucking retarded lameness filter.

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http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/Index.cfm?pageID=3 71">

Officers:
Chairman: Joseph Apuzzo, Jr.,Armenia Coffee Corp.

Vice Chairman: Jonathan T. Feuer,L.M. Zuckerman & Co., Inc.
Secretary & Treasurer: Thomas D. Westfeldt, Westfeldt Brothers, Inc.
Robert F. Nelson, President & CEO, National Coffee Association

Board Members:

Ernesto Alvarez, Coex Coffee Group
Steve Broughton, Wal*Mart Stores, Inc.
David B. Dallis, Dallis Coffee
Henry Dunlop, Atlantic (USA) Inc.
Richard Emanuele, Coffee America (USA) Corp.
JoséGaviña, F. Gaviña & Sons, Inc..
Linda Harelick, Kraft Foods North America
Dub Hay, Starbucks Coffee Company
James Kaloyanides, New England Coffee Company
Douglas A. McGraw, Procter & Gamble
Jim Nolan, Sara Lee Foodservice
Sergio C. Pereira, Cacique International, USA, Inc.
Kevin Petrie, Nestlé USA
Barbara A. Roth, Eight O'Clock Coffee Company
John C. Santos, Jr., Brown Brothers Harriman & Co.
Oscar L. Schaps,Hencorp Becstone Futures, LLC
Klaas van der Kaaij, Rothfos Corporation

Executive Committee

Chairman: Joseph Apuzzo, Jr., Armenia Coffee Corp.
Vice Chairman: Jonathan T. Feuer,L.M. Zuckerman & Co., Inc.
Secretary/Treasurer: Thomas D.Westfeldt, Westfeldt Brothers, Inc.
Steve Broughton, Wal*Mart Stores, Inc.
Dub Hay, Starbucks Coffee Company
Robert F. Nelson, President & CEO, National Coffee Association
John C. Santos, Jr., Brown Brothers Harriman & Co.

Convention

Chairman: Kevin O’Reilly,Balzac Bros. & Co. Inc.
Chris Burger, Fres-co System USA
Jeff Clark, Curwood Inc.
David Dallis, Dallis Coffee.
Bruce Goldsmith, Baronet Coffee
Brian Parker, Dunkin' Brands, Inc.
Jane Phillips McCabe, Tea & Coffee Trade Journal
Grace Mena, Deli Café

Government Affairs

Chairman: Dub Hay,Starbucks Coffee Company
Ernesto Alvarez, Coex Coffee International
Abigail Blunt, Altria Corporate Services, Inc.
William Cortner, Procter & Gamble
John DeMuria, Volcafé USA
Richard Emanuele, Coffee America (USA) Corp
Robert Fazzolare, Kraft Foods, Inc.
Wanda Herndon, Starbucks Coffee Company
Louise Hilsen, Nestlé USA
Scott Miller, Procter & Gamble
Lori Otto, Starbucks Coffee Company
Kevin Petrie, Nestlé USA
Rolly Prager, Nestlé USA
Gary Stopka, Sara Lee Coffee & Tea Foodservice
Michael Vellucci, Brown Brothers Harriman & Co
George Vukasin, Jr., Peerless Coffee Co

Information & Education

Chairman: James Cleaves,Dunkin' Brands, Inc.
Marcia Brashear, S & D Coffee
Kimbe

Because she dropped it on herself? 180 degree coffee will cause 3rd degree burns. 180 degress is the recommended serving temperature of coffee. She didn't sue for just medical damages. She first asked double the money of the total medical bill. Mcdonalds declines and offers something more reasonable, she then sues for punitive damages. Just the facts. And if you look at any manufator website for coffee brewers, they store coffee at 180-190 degrees. Mcdonalds didn't do anything wrong, they still served coffee at 180 degrees, it will still cause 3rd degree burns if you drop it on your lap. Thats why mcdonalds hot coffee case is always mentioned in tort reform threads as it was pure greed.

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=7 1

Btw here are the members of Coffee association of America. You think they know more about some coffee then stupid trial lawyer saying coffee should be servered at 135 degrees which is the temperature that can be reached in death valley.

Btw here are the members of Coffee association of America. You think they know more about some coffee then stupid trial lawyer saying coffee should be servered at 135 degrees which is the temperature that can be reached in death valley.

That link is quite biased. "The jury initially awarded Ms. Liebeck the equivalent of two days worth of coffee sales..." What's the point of saying that? How many days of coffee profits, which is more to the point?

Anyway, this page is a bit more balanced. 700 cases over 10 years works out to 1 out of every 24 million cups. And how about the fact that the National Coffee Association reccomends coffee be served at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit?

McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180-190F.

The National Coffee Association recommends that coffee be brewed at 195-205F and should be maintained at 180-185F.
http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pagei d=71

The woman was 79 years old(!)....and she puts the hot coffee between her knees.

Yes coffee is hot, but do you really need another warning label?

So, they were serving the coffee at the recommended temp. AND the woman was 79.. surely she knew that coffee can be hot and that you should take great care to not dump the stuff on your lap... like maybe not be opening the lid while the cup is sitting on your lap?!?!

Does it suck that she burnt herself bad enough to need skin grafts? Yes it does. Is it likely the burns were worse due to her age? Yes, as you age your skin gets thinner and is more easily damaged. Was McD being irresponsible when they served coffee at the recommended temperature? No. Were they being irresponsible when they assumed people knew that hot coffee was "hot?" Hardly, that's a reasonable expectation. Were they being irresponsible when they didn't post a warning on the cup or ordering window to tell warn people of what everyone already knows? If so, then pencil sharpener makers better start putting warnings that "sharpened pencils pose a greater risk of injury than unsharpened pencils."

The woman was injured through her own act. It was an accident, but it was hardly McD's fault.

BTW, the fact that 700 people were burnt (DURING THE PREVIOUS 10 YEARS!!) is irrelevant. How many people were burnt on car or motorcycle tailpipes during that same time period? Should we start suing manufacturers or start putting warnings on them like "Tailpipe may be very hot. Touching your leg or any exposed skin to the tailpipe may cause severe burns."

Everybody freaks when they learn that the coffee was served at 180-185 degrees F because they don't think about it. Boiling watter is 212 degrees F... what do you think is used to make coffee? If you make coffee for someone at home and they burn themselves, should they be able to sue you? If not, why should they be able to sue McD?

Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction.

the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.