Domain: opengamingfoundation.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to opengamingfoundation.org.
Comments · 23
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Hubris
Back when Wizards of the Coast took over D&D, one of the striking things then-Vice President Ryan Dancey said was that TSR (the former publisher) has obviously not listened to customers and had lost relevancy for that reason.
Now, Ryan Dancey is no longer at WotC, and WotC is not listening to customers, and what do you know? WotC is losing relevancy. People are going to buy the products they want, in the format they want, from the retailer they want, and you can never make them buy something different. It's as simple as that.
Fortunately the 3.x rules are open source so D&D can never die, in spite of WotC's seemingly intentional efforts to run their business into the ground. It just can't be called D&D for trademark reasons.
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Re:the new OGL draft doesn't grant anything
They never did. The current 3e/3.5e SRD is quite far from "Free" in many regards, and the d20 System License is full-blown branding
It seems you understand the difference between the SRD, the OGL, and the D20 License, but a lot of readers might not. So others can follow as we get technical: the OGL is the Open Gaming License, which I and some others would argue is not really very open. The SRD is the System Reference Document, which are the D&D 3.x rules as trimmed down and released under the OGL. The D20 System License is a separate license one could use to put a "D20 System" logo on one's product, which was supposed to indicate some level of compatibility with D&D. To get that logo one had to consent to rather odious and very non-free license terms.
What about the SRD is not free? I don't see how the "Product Identity" clause of the OGL affects the SRD because the SRD doesn't include any WotC "Product Identity." Are you referring to something else?
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Re:Only Lawyers may even think about law!!! (WOOT)
WoTC's Open Gaming License applicable to D&D 3rd edition and later is available here: http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html
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Re:NecromancyNope, from the d20 SRD---Spells (A)
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow the character's spoken commands.
. All you need is the skeleton. Looks like there's hope for DOS yet then.
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Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. -
Re:Paying to avoid thinking...
Are you insane? Posting this comment on Slashdot???
d20 is popular because the base rules are free, as in freedom, as in Free Software; because there was and is an existing base of rules to draw upon for your own derivative works as long as you accord that same privilege to others!
Take a look at the Open Gaming License that most d20 games use.
Then talk to us about why d20 became popular.
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Re:What about the ToEE codebase?
You also need a WOTC license, of course.
Do you? If you get rid of some of the feats and change the races around a bit, most of the D&D 3rd ed rules fall under the D20 system's Open Gaming Licence.
Obviously you couldn't use the setting or any of the game's content, but it wouldn't be very hard to tweak the engine itself such that it wasn't infringing on WotC's rights. -
Assumptions worth examining.
If I wanted to take some GPL'd libraries and framework to create a program for Open Gaming, I'd be unable to--as the GPL is likely incompatable with the OGL (see www.opengamingfoundation.org) despite being very compatable in intent and even outlook & purpose. And so, I wind up just using the OGL (or my own license, or someone else's) and when you want to use my code and RMS's code to make something new, you can't.
What's interesting here is that the onus of responsibility falls on the GPL to allow these derivatives rather than taking the authors of the OGL to task for writing a GPL-incompatible license (despite the GPL's clear popularity when the OGL was written). What is particularly ironic about this incompability is that the Open Gaming Foundation claims to be "based on the Free Software GNU General Public License ". But even if you're not willing to do that, all is not lost -- what happened when you asked the copyright holders of the two works for permission to make this derivative? Copyrighted works can be licensed any number of ways to any number of other parties. Perhaps they would grant you special permission to make your work. Also, why is it any GPL licensor's duty to let you create such a derivative by default?
Before Linux, MS actually sold a flavor of UNIX. Had "Free Software" not ran so contrary to their basic business model, we'd probably have MS Office for UNIX now. Rather that throwing the baby out with the bathwater, the collaborative features that MS Office has had for years might actually work with the Free Software OS RMS and LT happily put together.
Linux is a kernel, not an operating system. GNU predates the release of the Linux kernel. The existence of GNU and/or the Linux kernel does not prevent Microsoft from continuing the development of their UNIX-like system nor does it prevent them from writing MS Office for any OS they wish (including any free software OS). It seems to me that Microsoft's decision to can a program you appear to want is best addressed by talking to them, not chastising RMS. It appears that the Free Software Foundation is not interested in throwing aside their goals for mere popularity:
People justify adding non-free software in the name of the "popularity of Linux"--in effect, valuing popularity above freedom. Sometimes this is openly admitted. For instance, Wired Magazine says Robert McMillan, editor of Linux Magazine, "feels that the move toward open source software should be fueled by technical, rather than political, decisions." And Caldera's CEO openly urged users to drop the goal of freedom and work instead for the "popularity of Linux".
Adding non-free software to the GNU/Linux system may increase the popularity, if by popularity we mean the number of people using some of GNU/Linux in combination with non-free software. But at the same time, it implicitly encourages the community to accept non-free software as a good thing, and forget the goal of freedom. It is no use driving faster if you can't stay on the road.
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Re:Gee
I think they already have.
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Re:Major ProblemIf I remember correctly, the evolution of the whole D&D series started with the Basic D&D set. (I'm not counting Chainmail ruleset, which I feel is still a wargame.) My Basic D&D set was a red box, it even came with dice and crayon for you to fill in the numbers. In this rule set, Elf is a character class, not a player race. Elf played very similar to Fighter/Mage for those of you that cared. There were 5 such sets. Basic(1-3), Expert(4-14), Companion(15-25 levels), Master(26-36 levels), and Immortals(37+).
AD&D came after that, it was published in 1978 as three hardcover books: Player's Guide, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. It's a format that's follow even to this day. Various player race were introduced, and the rules were changed so that races are no longer classes.
Then came AD&D 2nd edition in 1989. For a while, they went to a 3 ring binder format for you to keep track of all the monsters, which drove me crazy. It may have been a good idea for adding new monsters, but pages tear and fall out all the time.
D20, or D&D 3rd edition, returned to the original Dungeon and Dragon name. The changes are quite drastic compare to any of the previous editions of D&D/AD&D.
The most recent release is 3.5E, which was last year. (2003)
For a history of D&D/TSR, take a look at here
The core of D20 is also published here as a set of rtfs.
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'open' toys?
Wizards of the Coast has attracted a ton of third party roleplaying game content to its d20 system because, according to the license, anyone can make supplements or even whole games based on the d20 game mechanics and other 'Open Gaming Content'. (See here for some plain English info.)
Maybe somebody should try making Lego-like toys with a similar license -- it would be very cool if manufacturers converged on interchangable components, from the complex (Mindstorms-like stuff, and 'Expert Set' gearing componentry) to the low (simple old-style bricks). And if some company wanted to make the idiotic prefab pieces that predominate today, they could do that too. -
Re:Reasons for shutting down FreeCraft
Why is it so hard to understand?
I don't know why you're having such a hard time with it, so I'll give it a shot:
- Freecraft is an RTS engine written from scratch by some people who liked Warcraft. As far as been determined, no one at Blizzard has worked on the code for Freecraft.
- Freecraft can read in Warcraft map data. One can create a map set that does not corresponde to anything Blizzard has put out. In fact, Freecraft came with a demo level that did not look like any of the original warcraft levels.
- Freecraft can read in Warcraft sprite data. One can create a sprite set that does not look anything like what Blizzard has put out. In fact, Freecraft came with a set of sprites that are obviously not the Blizzard sprites.
In short, the people of Freecraft made a game. From scratch. With their own knowledge of programming. And did not violate any laws. So the game mechanics are simliar. Big deal, one cannot copyright game mechanics. So they are not thieves.
If copying ideas is thievery, the PC industry as a whole are more scandales then the Enron execs could ever imagine. The whole industry was built on the cloning of others work, and yet it is thriving quite well. The system works. - Freecraft is an RTS engine written from scratch by some people who liked Warcraft. As far as been determined, no one at Blizzard has worked on the code for Freecraft.
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Re:negotiation and specification
It's not software, but you may consider www.opengamingfoundation.org's Open Gaming License as a model for this.
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Re:A little offtopic...
As I understand it, all or nearly all of the changes have been included in System Reference Document, which you can easily get for free (or maybe a couple bucks if you want to print it all out).
Apart from fancy binding, pretty pictures, and flavor text that you can get from 3E, what are the 3.5E books gonna have that isn't here? -
What about an Open Fanfic License
Something along the lines of the
Open Gaming Licence,
that spells out what a work of fanfic may/may not do,
and what legalese one must comply with to publish it.
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OGF != OGL
Sorry to be nitpicky, but the Online Gaming League is the only OGL that I know of, and I don't see what it could possibly have to do with the Open Gaming Foundation. I mean seriously, the first person shooter geeks shouldn't be confused with the d&d dorks. They at least deserve that much.
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Re:What's nice about the GPL
Yes, the GPL grants permissions, but it also takes away rights, such as the right to first sale of binary-only copies.
Hmm. If you are using someone else's code under the GPL, then you never had a right to sell their code in the first place. So I don't see how the GPL takes anything away from you.
Right of First Sale: The legal term that means "the ownership of a thing ends after the first sale, and the new owner can do Pretty Much whatever they want with the thing."
In other words, if I buy a copy of a GPL's software program and the vendor tells me "here's where you get the source" exteranally from the program files (and, yes, that IS explicitly stated as allowable in the GPL), I could normally just pass the program on to someone else, but the GPL seems to say that I have to communicate the same thing that the vendor told me, or else I've commited copyright infringment.
If I buy a game from ID software, ID can't really tell me not to take the disks after I'm done using it and sell them to a used-computer depo. But if the game was GPL'd, and ID tells me where to get the source outside of the disks (say, in a pamplhet in the box), I'm violating the GPL by "redistributing" the binary without the "source."
The GPL, and other sticky copyleft licenses like it (such as the Open Gaming License), is a contract where you pay for the right to use the code by agreeing to release your use of it under the GPL. You're not "getting something for free."
You're getting a "one-way ticket into copyleftland," to sound like an MSife for a moment. Considering how vauge "derivitive work" can be, I'd be shy releasing a GPL'd program and then going to (profitable) proprietary software too.
About the only valid complaint against the GPL is "what's to stop some meanie from saying a project I write six months after I finish my GPL project should be covered by the GPL because its 'derivitive', and thus dragging me into court?"
(I'm not as familiar with the GPL as I am with the OGL, but the OGL has a 30-day cure period and a much clearer definition of "use." Not to mention that the RPG industry is nowhere near as litgious or fragmented as the software industry.) -
OGL is total crap
...and not the work of Gygax. This fetid thing is the brainfart of one Ryan S. Dancey, a (former) executive at WOTC. He has since left to run his own company focused on the Open Gaming License. Several articles a couple years ago on various sites claimed D&D was going open source. It's not, and never will. It's more like M$'s "shared source" malarky.
I read the OGL. It's junk. Do not think it has the same purpose/principle/goals behind it that the GPL does. The OGL exists so that WOTC can steer the entire game industry. All these little game companies were spawned because of the OGL, and the OGL will be their downfall. If any other game company had money (Decipher is the closest), they would sue WOTC for anti-trust violations. Hard core
/. gamers should think about all the similarities between M$ and WOTC.D&D is the reason why there are so many other RPG's out there. I know, because stupid D&D rules are one of the reasons why I made my own game.
And some more insight into the history lesson going on here...Hasbro only bought WOTC because Pokemon was a cash cow at the time. Now that it's dying (yah!), Hasbro is worried. They never understood what they were getting.
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Re:Open Gaming Foundationg
To add to this, the license under which the D20 SRD has been released is the Open Gaming License, available here on the OGF site.
This license gives fairly broad rights to most people willing to build upon the d20 ruleset, almost certainly including non-commercial games, but IANAL, so don't take my word on it. -
D&D Nitpicking
AD&D is generally taken to refer to the second edition Dungeons & Dragons Rules.
Neverwinter Nights will be based on the 3rd edition D&D rules (D&D3e), which is different from AD&D.
A link to the 3rd Edition System Reference Document with all the core rules released to the Open Gaming Foundation (including Psionics!) may be found here. -
Monopoly? What you say!!
Although certainly Wizards is a dominant force in the Pen-and-Paper (PnP) RPG market, it's by no means the only company on the block, nor is it a Microsoft-like Goliath with only a few paltry Davids as competition. White Wolf games are still very popular, and for many are the first introduction into PnP gaming. The White Wolf LARP rules attract alot of theater types, which then gravitate toward the PnP games.
Also, even though FASA has closed it's doors, the Shadowrun and Battletech games have been transferred to another company. These games have loyal followers as well. And I'm sure Steve Jackson Games isn't going to roll over and die any time soon. And there are hundreds of companies still putting out product on a regular basis, ranging from the classics to new and unique systems.
In fact, I see Wizards as being a good thing for the roleplaying community. Granted, not everyone likes the AD&D "high fantasy" genre. And quite a few people who do like it have been outraged by the rules change evident in 3rd edition--the same people who took five years to get over their outrage when 2nd edition came out. Whether you love AD&D or hate it, love 3E or hate it, you have to admit that it's breathing new life into roleplaying games, and bringing over some new gamers who had previously only played twitch games on some console. And it's also providing a way for new RPG publishers to get a foothold in the market.
Unlike TSR, Wizards won't sue your ass if you want to make a game module and print it without their permission. All you have to do is put the Open Gaming Licence in your module or game supplement, and you can slap a "D20" logo which officially marks it as "D&D compatible". How many of us older gamers remember the glory days of Role Aids game supplements? It sickened me when T$R went after the little guys with their evil lawsuits, and persecuted them for the crime of wanting to contribute to the gaming community. But now, anyone can create adventure modules, monster guides, sourcebooks, and whole campaign worlds, and sell them with no royalty fees whatsoever, getting 100% of the profit of those sales.
Doesn't sound like the policies of a monopoly to me...
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RPGs and BiowareThere has been a lot of threads on various boards concerning what the RPG might be like and whether it will be follow certain aspects found in Bioware's AD&D games. There has also been quite a bit of discussion as whether the D20 system is really appropriate to a Star Wars RPG as opposed to a D6 system which was used in WEG before WotC stepped into the picture. This is basically commentary to address such subject matter.
Bioware, The History
First off, let's take a look at Bioware: Bioware was the brain child of two Alberta doctors who decided for a variety of reasons to go after a dream founding the game development company we now know. Originally, Dr. Greg Zeschuk and Dr. Ray Muzyka intended on designing a fairly detailed encompassing RPG which had absolutely no relation to AD&D but still held a fantasy like aura. Later, when Black Isle and Interplay became associated with Bioware, the developers suddenly had access to Interplay's aging AD&D licences which had not been used to develop a title of wide success. From this was born the new Infinity Engine and their second title: Baldur's Gate. However, by this time Bioware had already aquired a sizable and strong development team which had experience as a cohesive unit from the development of Shattered Steel. Furthermore they had already established an annimation division which gave Bioware a specialized resource: talented exclusive annimators and modellers. Baldur's Gate was released as their first major title earning them much acclaim and respect as developers. This in term earned them the rights to MDK producing the Omen engine and the suceeding title, MDK 2.
What can be drawn from this is that Bioware is not a single title and single technology company. They are versatile and quite capable of producing a wide variety of games in many differing styles and genres. Baldur's Gate started as a non-AD&D RPG not using a D20 system. While it is indeed a AD&D game and was widely influced by the developer's experiences with pen and paper AD&D 2nd ed. the product should not be taken as the direct result of the AD&D franchise. Furthermore, they proved their ability to produce specific game engines for a widely differing genres with the creation of Shattered Steel, Infinity and Omen. These engines share very little in common but are all well done solid packages. If anything, Bioware's experience with franchises demonstrates an ability to comprehend their subject matter and produce original material which follows in not only the tradition of the franchise, but also with the concept and principles: they know what the point of their subject matter is. In this, one can trust that Bioware will produce a title fitting of Star Wars. Their Star Wars title will be a Star Wars game to the core.
Bioware, Preferences of Design
Bioware also has shown a definite preference for design spaces without too many constraints. In Baldur's Gate they choose the least defined area they could find in TSR's Forgotten Realms which allowed them to create as much original material as possible. With MDK 2, the plot only holds basic restrictions in terms of design without any specific problems such as well defined areas (this place must look like this, etc). This holds true with the new SW RPG -- set in the distant past Bioware has a lot of room to move around in. In a way this also helps alleviate any presure to have a title that falls to stigmas... not all Dwarves hate Elves, Elves don't have to be wizards or rangers, not everyone in the Battletech universe is a Mechwarrior and in Star Wars not everyone uses the Force. It is a fair assumption that the title will not be the Jedi versus the non-Jedi Force wielding bad guys -- but such is enivitable to some extent.
Bioware also tends to develop highly personalized titles. By this I mean that their titles have always been from a close perspective in terms of game narration -- Baldur's Gate was a small party of 6 or less, MDK 2 was played as one of the three protagonists and Shattered Steel was first person in all respects. I doubt they were choosen to develop an MMPOG or any similar system. Even Neverwinter Nights is a party based experience even though it has a target of approximately 64 players per server. At the core all of their games are personal stories of greate proportions. This is what their SW title will almost definitely be like... it's also a reason why their is limited competition between Verant's SW RPG and Bioware's: they are targetted at different audiences.
The Engine
It was announced that this product will be using a new engine. When Bioware announced Neverwinter Nights it was said to be using the Omen engine which was very heavily modified from MDK 2. Subsequently this will not be an Omen derivative as some have conjectured. With the experience of Omen under the belt as well as an RPG adaptation of the engine, it is fairly certain that the engine will be 3D with a more freeform nature than in Neverwinter Nights (you cannot look up or follow from odd perspectives, etc).
Addressing the cross-platform release of the game (console, PC, Mac), I do not believe there should be any doubt that they will deliver. With the simulataneous parallel development of Neverwinter Nights and the previous development of MDK 2, it should be fairly obvious that they are more than capable of developing on all the mentioned platform proficiently.
D20 and RPGs
Just to have it clear at the beginning: it is not certain whether or not Bioware will be using WotC D20 system as seen in their version of the Star Wars RPG or a new statistics system.
Many state that D20 isn't really suited for RPGs and fast paced RPGs because it is tends to involve quite a great more dice rolls and general statistics than a D6 system. However, this does not hold true for computer games at all -- computing a D20 combat sequence is arbitrary. Furthermore, the user can be completely abstracted from the entire statistics systems. AD&D was designed as a highly versatile statistical system which was easily understood primarily based upon 5 percent segments. In AD&D 3rd edition which is very similar to D20, the system has been further generalized providing specifics on handling non-RP situations which was not associated with the fantasy genre. Basically the D20 system provides a set of combat, action and skill rules which can be applied to anything which can be reasonably segmented into 5 percent slice with results having the acompanying degree of error.
It seems ridiculous to consider a +5 light sabre or a 48D8 Sith lord, but it is similarly odd to consider the same situation in terms of statistics. All things being considered, it is just a finite segmented manner of representing statistics rather than developing an overly complex smoothly progressing system in terms of the base units.
Many of the restrictions which are associated with AD&D and the D20 system do not really exist in the computer world. In pen and paper a lot of situations and environments where non-RP elements came into play were very difficult to represent for an unassisted DM. It was not that the rule set did not allow certain actions or environments to look like a certain fashion, it was more that the DM was either not imaginative or capable of generating, tracking and handling the required information.
Consider the timeframe, effort and resources availible to a D20 computer game versus a pen and paper version. A developer spends 2 to 5 years developing a single title which encompasses what is relatively a short timeframe in terms of play time. This same developer has a whole host of designers, artists, developers and SQA working on the project as well as the direct creative assistance of the developers of the original system. A DM, on the other hand has himself and the rule books. It's no particular surprize that many DMs fell into the simple way out in creating almost out of box situations. Without the lengthy combat roles and statistics checks as arbitrary and the time and man hours to create a vibrant environment, I find that the D20 completely acceptable.
Game Play
Currently the game is being developed as a single player RPG, but it is fairly certain that a multiplayer element will enter in upon the game. given the shorter development cycle than Neverwinter Nights and the stipulation of a new engine, it is doubted that the RPG will be of the versatile scale of Neverwinter Nights. It is not particularly hard to add in a party like element such as in Baldur's Gate or even cooperative DOOM.
Just as an offhand note, the game play doesn't neccesarily have to be at a slow pace or have an abstracted method of control as in AD&D and many other RPGs. It could just as well involve much more action whether using a high level approach with general commands or a low level approach with more fine control in terms of actions. Even if they decided to use D20 this could be implemented...
As for everything else, who knows? Here's a bit of reference material where you can get more information:
Bioware Corp
Press Release (Bioware) (Lucasarts)
The Making of a Monster: Creating Baldur's Gate (CGDC 2000 Presentation)
Shadow's of Amen Message Board
Icewind Dale Message Board
Neverwinter Nights Message Board
Slashdot on D20
Open Gaming Foundation
Ryan Dancey Interview
WotC Interview with Ryan Dancey
WotC Star Wars RPG
Eric Noah's Unofficial AD&D 3rd Edition News
Basic Clarifications
This product is being developed by Bioware: not Lucasarts or Black Isle or Interplay
It will feature a new engine not based on Omen
The game is currently being developed as single player
It is unconfirmed whether or not the game will use D20 or not, D20 is currently being used in the yet to be released Star Wars RPG from WotC
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Re:They're just trying to capitalize on buzzwords.If you don't put the D20 trademark on your product, the D20 TL does not apply. All the D20 TL does is tell you when you are allowed to use thee D20 trademark.
No, the D20 TL does in fact say you can't use parts of the previously "open" game. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.
It would be like Sun releasing Java's code under the GPL, but requiring that you pass a certification test to use the Java trademark. The certification test doesn't stop you from using the code however you like; it just says under what conditions you can call it Java.
No, it would be like Sun releasing Java's code under the GPL, but requiring you to remove part of it if you use the Java trademark, regardless of the modifications you've made.
The D20 license constrains you to remove the otherwise "open" character creation rules if you're distributing something with the D20 trademark. Technically, yes, it's a restriction on the trademark rather than the rules, but it's still a backdoor way to accomplish the same thing... what sense would it make to restrict the full Linux distro to only things that didn't say "Linux" on them?
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Re:They're just trying to capitalize on buzzwords.
Read the license, please. It's at the OGF website and looks quite modelled after the GPL. In particular, it allows you to reproduce, verbatim, the rules (subject to trademark restraints).