Slashdot Mirror

The first thing we need is free map data. All current maps have very tight legal terms, which makes this kind of thing impossible. Check out http://www.openstreetmap.org/, there might already be decent maps where you live. For navigation you can use TangoGPS but there are other programs available too.

Seriously, the OpenStreetMap folks have this one figured out already. See their GPS reviews wiki entry on their site for your guide to what GPSs are hackable.

Seriously, the OpenStreetMap folks have this one figured out already. See their GPS reviews wiki entry on their site for your guide to what GPSs are hackable.

A lot of the time OpenStreetMaps will have more details in their maps, especially in developing countries.

Compare google maps over Almaty Kazakhstan

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=almaty&sll=43.284074,76.926962&sspn=0.233681,0.375938&ie=UTF8&ll=43.278455,76.928673&spn=0.233702,0.375938&z=12&msa=0&msid=107746239331497129542.000458a60dc6a719a8cb9

And OpenStreetMaps over Almaty Kazakhstan

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=43.167025&mlon=77.096700&zoom=10

[...] giving GPS devices to people in developing countries to help make free maps. e.g. see http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/gpstogo/

What about all the people not in Togo? And shouldn't Togo do all right on their own, as they apparently produce >90% of the world's coffee?

I'm an OSM enthusiast and wanted to share this: Canada, one of the 'poor countries' of OSM, is on the verge of seeing *all* roads added to OSM. No kidding.

Here's an excellent OSM introduction webcast on fosslc.org.

If you want to learn more about OSM, here's my shameless (really) plug, hell, even the White House uses OpenStreetMap! With projects like OpenRouteService, one will be able to replicate many of the important services provided by Google Maps, MS Virtual Earth, Yahoo! Maps, MapQuest, etc.

I'm an OSM enthusiast and wanted to share this: Canada, one of the 'poor countries' of OSM, is on the verge of seeing *all* roads added to OSM. No kidding.

Here's an excellent OSM introduction webcast on fosslc.org.

If you want to learn more about OSM, here's my shameless (really) plug, hell, even the White House uses OpenStreetMap! With projects like OpenRouteService, one will be able to replicate many of the important services provided by Google Maps, MS Virtual Earth, Yahoo! Maps, MapQuest, etc.

There's a choice of about 50 different models here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GPS_Reviews It all depends on whether you want to contribute content to OpenStreetMap or just use the maps, or ideally both.

Correct me if I am wrong, and do not mean any ill will towards the winner of this contest, but doesn't it make more sense to just hire someone from the island to do it? It would either be quicker, cheaper, or possibly both.

I think they're doing that already -- giving GPS devices to people in developing countries to help make free maps. e.g. see http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/gpstogo/

there are a few people nearby: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Users_in_Pakistan

Funny, I just got back from the first day of PgCon 2009 (in Ottawa). One of the presentations I went to today was regarding OpenStreetMap's switch from MySql to PostgreSQL last month. I think theywould beg to differ about feature completeness. It was kind of sad looking at their schema: one could really sense the limitations of mysql they had to design around. Ouch. Apparently in the end it was lack of MyISAM transactions causing constant problems with their volume of updates combined with InnoDB's lack of text search (can't have your cake and eat it too, apparently) that pushed them over the edge.

Why don't you talk to the KDE Marble team?
http://edu.kde.org/marble/
This way the entire world could benefit from this as Marble is cross-platform.

Once you got the software in place, you could then also talk to the OpenStreetMap project.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/

Together with the two linked projects you could figure out a cheap setup that everyone could follow, so we can see more of this stuff happen and you could share your streetview with the rest of the world! :D

Have a look at this project:
openstreetview.org.uk

The map data is from the Openstreetmap Project.
There's also a discussion going on about openstreetview in the talk mailing list of OSM.

Have a look at this project:
openstreetview.org.uk

The map data is from the Openstreetmap Project.
There's also a discussion going on about openstreetview in the talk mailing list of OSM.

Related, there is more 'social data and social software' at the White House today. The WH Change website now uses OpenLayers and OpenStreetMap! Great to see such penetration of open data and open source :-)

The point is that it has not moved to an open market. The tpb have only reduced the distribution cost. The marketing costs are still there and the majors are still the only people that can afford them.

The internet can do so much more than reduce distribution costs. It can also create new methods of marketing and encourage creation.

For an example look at a project like open street map. They didn't just say "map data should be free" and start distributing commercial data sources. Instead they have created an infrastructure that allows people to create and use map data. The project has attracted a staggering amount of effort. People actually invest 100's of hours collecting data and creating software to enable this to happen.

tpb on the other hand haven't really resulted in anything napster didn't demonstrate years ago. It's just a list of torrents you search and little else. Looking at other projects like openstreetmap, free software, wikipedia etc. people are prepared to invest time producing free good quality media if you provide the right conditions. tph have media attention, they have the servers, they have the technical ability. Why are they content with using so little of the internets potential?

Yahoo! has also done a fairly good job of supporting initiatives like Open Street Map (the Wikipedia of online maps). Google... just buys map data from the usual suspects. Support free information. :)

Organize a huge mob of people to visit the village "because it wasn't on the map, and wanted to know what it was like"

The mapping party has already been organised. (assuming it's the Milton Keynes one - there are two Broughtons in Buckinghamshire) Bring a camera if you want!

I believe the issue is that Google isn't allowed to provide such service with Google Maps. Google has licensed maps from different sources, which in turn have re-licensed it or are providing their own paid services such as turn-by-turn navigation, re-routing, etc. I believe the license agreement Google has limits the use of maps to not allow these services specifically. If you use Google Maps API, they make you agree to such terms too.

Want to do all that stuff? Get your own maps and host the service on your own servers. Something like andnav2.

hardly surprising when you see just how many turbines some places have installed

The answer to the first point (as already noted) is "yes it does". Whether there's ENOUGH information in there to route you from where you are to where you want to go depends on OSM's coverage of where you are, but there are ways to represent the necessary TYPEs of data.

The pat answer to the second is that you're free to set up your own mapping project with data available under whatever licence you choose. There's a reason why OSM's founders chose to licence it as they do - some people agree with that and some don't. If you don't; don't worry, collect your own data and you can do what you like with it.

Non-trolls that have read this far might want to have a look at these two pages which attempt to explain the current situation:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Common_licence_interpretations

The answer to the first point (as already noted) is "yes it does". Whether there's ENOUGH information in there to route you from where you are to where you want to go depends on OSM's coverage of where you are, but there are ways to represent the necessary TYPEs of data.

The pat answer to the second is that you're free to set up your own mapping project with data available under whatever licence you choose. There's a reason why OSM's founders chose to licence it as they do - some people agree with that and some don't. If you don't; don't worry, collect your own data and you can do what you like with it.

Non-trolls that have read this far might want to have a look at these two pages which attempt to explain the current situation:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Common_licence_interpretations

Given that OpenStreetMap Cairo looks pretty complete I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of GPS devices already out there.

It's interesting to watch the trickle down effect of technology and grassroots efforts to harness it, coming fact to face with traditional government regulation, such as amateur cartography being illegal in Russia. I guess personal GPS devices and the internet are pretty subversive.

the second paragraph probably nulls any chance that google could provide satellite data for projects like http://www.openstreetmap.org/...

would be kinda cool though. somebody even suggested (as a joke :) ) "google summer of map", a project for openstreetmap mapping =)

I keep hoping that Google will start releaseing some of their data into the public domain/GPL/Creative Commons.
That Google spy van must be gathering data like speed limits, which streets are one way. Maybe even which are paved and not.

You're right for StreetView (you can still use Google's StreetView data in OpenLayers.org for example), otherwise, Google Maps/Earth licenses data from others (Tele Atlas/NAVTEQ/DigitalGlobe/GeoEye/etc), so they are not the ultimate geodata owner (yet? ;-).

One place missing GPL application is a really good navigation system.

Yes but... do you really need this? When you'll buy your GPS-enabled navigation system (e.g. from Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc), you'll be given appropriate software that works with the hardware you just purchased (even the iPhone has (in dev) it's turn by turn nav syst software). You don't "need" to install an open source nav syst.

That said, I agree, a solid open source nav syst would be nice. Roadnav is an example, but I think it's not as mature as commercial offers. The data for such an open source software project already exists on OpenStreetMap.org.

I was in much the same situation as the original poster about a year ago, and I set out to do something about it. I started off doing simple things like push-ups in the privacy of my home, and once I'd got into that habit, and made myself a little fitter in the process, I considered my next move.

Much like the OP, I get self-concious when jogging in public. However, I observed that cycling gets much less attention than jogging, so I went and bought myself a nice new bike and started a regime of cycling every day after work. (I did try cycling to work a few times, but there isn't really a good bike route to take and I don't like cycling on major roads.)

I found after I'd got into cycling maybe 5-10 miles around my neighbourhood that I was getting bored and demotivated, so I slacked off for a while and started to get tubby again. Recently I've re-awakened my interest in contributing to OpenStreetMap, which has proven to be the perfect excuse to bike around with a goal in mind other than just biking for biking's sake. For those who aren't familiar with the OpenStreetMap thing, basically I bike around with a GPS logger fixed to my handlebars and use the tracklogs collected as the basis for maps of my local area. These last few weeks I've been doing more miles per day than I ever did before because I'm thinking about something else while I'm doing it.

If OpenStreetMap already has coverage for your area then this isn't a very helpful suggestion, but I'm sure you could find other excuses to get out and about and get exercise without that being your primary goal.

Whats the state of navigation for linux in car systems? It'd be fun to homebrew one, but without decent navigation it's not a whole lot of use.

I'm sure i should have some BSOD joke in here too, but i haven't had my coffee yet

Navigation is a hard problem, primarily due to a lack of data. There are free sources (as in public domain) of street line data for many countries, however you need topological network data to accurately route a car -- street intersections, one-way streets, weighting of streets according to real-world local conditions, etc.

The US Census releases the TIGER data, and OpenStreetMaps builds on that (and other) data with a public domain wiki-style site, but neither sources have sufficient topological data to route autos.

There are two primary providers of topological map data -- you'll see their logos at the bottom of most maps, including Google Maps: NavTeq and TeleAtlas. For a brief introduction to the scale of the problem, I'd actually recommend watching TeleAtlas's marketing video on their production process

I'd love to see furtherance of open topographical data -- data about the communities around us is useful for more than just routing automobiles. One very interesting development is Google StreetView. In taking these photographs, Google has removed the need to actually drive the routes to gather, correct, or refine data -- they can collect the photographs en-masse, allowing more specialized analysis to be done offline -- anyone, anywhere, can determine whether a street is one-way, where the freeway on-ramp is, etc.

I should also mention that OpenStreetMaps uses a share-alike creative-commons license. The definition of an "aggregate work" of data is very fluid -- I can not use OSM data, since I can't combine it with data available under different licensing -- even publicly available municipal data that simply can't be re-licensed CC Share-Alike.

There's already some coverage of China in openstreetmap.org (which is like Wikipedia for maps). For example, here's Shanghai:

http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.226&lon=121.5487&zoom=12&layers=B0FT

The coverage is only going to improve. Already in other countries, many cities are nearing completion. You can't close the mapping door after the GPS trace has bolted.

It would appear that the US Census Bureau also made this same mistake. The driveway is labeled as "GoldenBrooke Ln" in the TIGER dataset, also visible in OpenStreetMap.

Or you can use Ming, which is what I do all my Flash development work with - mostly the Flash editor for OpenStreetMap. Ming is actually the underlying library for Salasaga, and if you're at all familiar with scripting languages, you may well prefer direct access to the library rather than working via a GUI.

It's an even older version of Actionscript - AS1 vs mtasc's AS2 or commercial Flash's AS3 - but AS1 and AS2 have the same functionality, and personally (much to the exasperation of my co-devs ;) ) I prefer the old-fashioned AS1 grammar. Unlike mtasc, which is just an Actionscript compiler, Ming also provides language wrappers (Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby...) for Flash drawing primitives. Ming works fine on Linux, OS X (which I use), even Windows. There are plenty of examples available, and the devs are really helpful.

Utter rubbish.

Flash is one of many tools available for building Rich Internet Applications. AJAX-type technologies are another, Java a third. In some areas, such as vector drawing and image manipulation, Flash is the best choice: in some areas, it isn't. Hey, isn't it great that the web isn't just controlled by one company?

I'm the main developer of the online map editor for OpenStreetMap. It's written in Flash (a fairly old version, actually - ActionScript 1 compiled with the open-source Ming library). Flash hits just the right spot. Its penetration is very high. It's easy to develop for, because the implementation is almost entirely the same on the three main platforms - a big deal for a volunteer project with limited developers and users ever demanding more and more features. (There is one bug in the Linux player that doesn't show up on OS X or Windows. Other than that, the differences are entirely in Microsoft's brain-dead embed method for WinIE.) It's fast - yes, even on the fairly sluggish OS X player: the Java applet we had in the project's early days was much slower on Apple's JVM. And the results are visually appealing.

To sneerily dismiss Flash with a superior "does not belong on Proper Websites Like The Sort I Make" is like damning HTML because some people use the blink tag.

Babbling:

Remember that the original post above was looking for an open source replacement for commercial GPS systems due to complaints about inaccuracies in said systems.

The OpenStreetMap project is pretty amazing, even though it did start out with existing (TIGER) data for its USA maps, but there are no quality controls on it, either for completeness or accuracy. As the OpenStreetMap wiki itself freely admits, "By the very nature of the wiki-style process there is no guarantee of accuracy of any kind....[w]hich means the database will always be subject to the whims, experimentation, and mistakes of the community." In short, there are no quality controls and no overriding financial and/or legal motivation to strive for the last few sigmas of accuracy that a commercial GPS firm achieves.

One of the fundamental challenges in all software development is the "90-90" problem: it takes 90% of the estimated time to complete the first 90% of the project, and another 90% of the time to complete the remaining 10% of the project. It's while completing that final 10% -- which typically involves a lot of negotiation between features, performance, and reliability -- that all the really hard choices are made, and where most 'death march' development efforts begin. It's also where a lot of software projects fail, because completing that final 10% turns out to be more difficult, expensive, and/or time consuming than originally envisioned. This is particularly true in open source projects, which is why sourceforge.net is crammed full of thousands of incomplete or abandoned software projects (including one of my own!) and why thousands more linger on, never quite getting to a 1.0 release.

As for the scaling issue: it is another truism of IT project failure that what works in the lab does not necessary work in production. Remember that GPS navigation systems have to work in real-time; any delays or lags would be inconvenient at best (e.g., a missed turn-off) and could actually be dangerous. A navigation system that works in real-time with a small (1 sq. mile) database may not be able to function in real-time with a 3.5 million sq. mile database. Note that when I punch in an address that's a few thousand miles away, it only takes my GPS system a matter of seconds to calculate a route for me, and it can maintain, track, modify, and update that route in real-time.

In short, I remain highly skeptical that an open source project could produce a GPS navigation system that would be (and would continue to be) superior to what you can buy for a few hundred bucks at Costco -- which is what the original poster was asking for. ..bruce..

Babbling:

Remember that the original post above was looking for an open source replacement for commercial GPS systems due to complaints about inaccuracies in said systems.

The OpenStreetMap project is pretty amazing, even though it did start out with existing (TIGER) data for its USA maps, but there are no quality controls on it, either for completeness or accuracy. As the OpenStreetMap wiki itself freely admits, "By the very nature of the wiki-style process there is no guarantee of accuracy of any kind....[w]hich means the database will always be subject to the whims, experimentation, and mistakes of the community." In short, there are no quality controls and no overriding financial and/or legal motivation to strive for the last few sigmas of accuracy that a commercial GPS firm achieves.

One of the fundamental challenges in all software development is the "90-90" problem: it takes 90% of the estimated time to complete the first 90% of the project, and another 90% of the time to complete the remaining 10% of the project. It's while completing that final 10% -- which typically involves a lot of negotiation between features, performance, and reliability -- that all the really hard choices are made, and where most 'death march' development efforts begin. It's also where a lot of software projects fail, because completing that final 10% turns out to be more difficult, expensive, and/or time consuming than originally envisioned. This is particularly true in open source projects, which is why sourceforge.net is crammed full of thousands of incomplete or abandoned software projects (including one of my own!) and why thousands more linger on, never quite getting to a 1.0 release.

As for the scaling issue: it is another truism of IT project failure that what works in the lab does not necessary work in production. Remember that GPS navigation systems have to work in real-time; any delays or lags would be inconvenient at best (e.g., a missed turn-off) and could actually be dangerous. A navigation system that works in real-time with a small (1 sq. mile) database may not be able to function in real-time with a 3.5 million sq. mile database. Note that when I punch in an address that's a few thousand miles away, it only takes my GPS system a matter of seconds to calculate a route for me, and it can maintain, track, modify, and update that route in real-time.

In short, I remain highly skeptical that an open source project could produce a GPS navigation system that would be (and would continue to be) superior to what you can buy for a few hundred bucks at Costco -- which is what the original poster was asking for. ..bruce..

Hi ..bruce..,

Do you consider the software or the database to be unfeasible? You talk about scaling things up, but there's very few reasons why software that works in one neighbourhood would fail in another except for deficiencies in the data.

The idea behind projects such as OpenStreetMap is to build the data, using contributors who are local to the area that they are mapping. I think OpenStreetMap is only beginning to pick up pace, and it is already getting quite good considering that it has been quite a low-profile project until recently.

The software side of this (as far as I know) doesn't exist yet, but when it does get started, you might claim to be correct if it happens to be crude at first. Free Software projects often are because they tend to release earlier than commercially-driven projects would. One strength of Free Software is that it can never go bankrupt. We can refine our poor software until it is great without having to worry about a project running out of money. If the Free Software for GPS navigation is crude at first, it will only ever improve. Eventually, if people keep working on it (and they will, because someone in the community will be unsatisfied until we have such software), it will be good.

If each contributor to OpenStreetMap only works on a single street, then it will only need an average of one contributor from each street in the world.

However, most contributors work on many, many streets. I've only been involved for a very short time and I've already added/fixed a few streets, added parking areas, post offices, banks, ATMs, police stations, and public toilets. When I started contributing to OpenStreetMap, I was a bit disappointed because most of my area had already been mapped. The CBD in every major city has also been mapped. It currently has information (eg. public toilets, fast food places other than just McDonald's, pharmacies, banks, and ATMs) that is not on any other map that I am aware of.

My contributions would continue, but almost everything I know about my local area was already on there before I started contributing. You're probably one of those people who still thinks that "Wikipedia isn't viable because it would take an army of volunteers to make an entire free online encyclopedia!"

If each contributor to OpenStreetMap only works on a single street, then it will only need an average of one contributor from each street in the world.

However, most contributors work on many, many streets. I've only been involved for a very short time and I've already added/fixed a few streets, added parking areas, post offices, banks, ATMs, police stations, and public toilets. When I started contributing to OpenStreetMap, I was a bit disappointed because most of my area had already been mapped. The CBD in every major city has also been mapped. It currently has information (eg. public toilets, fast food places other than just McDonald's, pharmacies, banks, and ATMs) that is not on any other map that I am aware of.

My contributions would continue, but almost everything I know about my local area was already on there before I started contributing. You're probably one of those people who still thinks that "Wikipedia isn't viable because it would take an army of volunteers to make an entire free online encyclopedia!"

If each contributor to OpenStreetMap only works on a single street, then it will only need an average of one contributor from each street in the world.

However, most contributors work on many, many streets. I've only been involved for a very short time and I've already added/fixed a few streets, added parking areas, post offices, banks, ATMs, police stations, and public toilets. When I started contributing to OpenStreetMap, I was a bit disappointed because most of my area had already been mapped. The CBD in every major city has also been mapped. It currently has information (eg. public toilets, fast food places other than just McDonald's, pharmacies, banks, and ATMs) that is not on any other map that I am aware of.

My contributions would continue, but almost everything I know about my local area was already on there before I started contributing. You're probably one of those people who still thinks that "Wikipedia isn't viable because it would take an army of volunteers to make an entire free online encyclopedia!"

Folks, be aware that one way that a mapmaker "improves" on a copyright protection is to intentionally alter a small section of a map (and in a book, a few at random) that is hopefully not used.

Having mapped a couple of square miles for OpenStreetMap, I can attest to the fact that these alterations are incredibly common on Google Maps. There are half a dozen within half a mile of my house, most being added curves or extensions to dead-end roads and added or removed traffic islands. Google also cunningly add fake roads to the map data which correlate with features which look like roads on the satellite imagery but actually aren't - they're private drives, streams, paths rather than roads through woodland etc. The ones near me wouldn't seriously affect navigation, but some I've seen in the past would. Oh yes, Google Maps is also shifted by about 5m from WGS84 (GPS coordinates) round here, I presume this is intentional too.

Found link to http://www.openstreetmap.org/ on the openmoko developers wiki.

I agree, I should have mentioned them in my summary but I think there are several things lacking in that project, such as the peer review / moderation / trust system. It's also not possible to download that data into my GPS, or at least not in a way I could figure out. And even if it were, it lacks the "auto-routing" data that would make features such as driving directions possible. Plus, while it's possible to upload traces from my GPS, it doesn't seem like it's possible to import those directly to the map (maybe that's not correct but I'm admittedly not familiar w/ that process).

Turn restrictions and address ranges are a b**ch to work with; but the rest of features are pretty well defined in the Wiki.
See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features . And if something is missing, please check the "proposed features" link at the top.

Obviously you have no clue about OSM and now you are covering up your lack of knowledge by an endless barrage of questions for which all the answers are yes. Well, except the one about specifying required vs optional : in OSM every attribute is optional.

Btw. while Potlatch is a great tool, it (intentionally) only exposes a part of what OSM allows you to do compared with offline editors like JOSM or Merkaartor.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/ has more info and is faster at the moment.

OSM already has those features - they're called tags (not layers)

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features

I could help that project by uploading my route tracks but what if I use mapsource (garmin software) to look up the road name am I infringing on something?

(I see about 5-10 drivers a day drive up our street only to find it's a dead end even though this is clearly shown on the road signs; I guess they trust their SatNavs more than the road signs)

Openstreetmap is good.

Open Street Map has a good and growing base of data for the US. Plus they link in to open source or freeware applications that you can load on PDAs, GPS-enabled cell phones, laptops, etc to begin creating traces that can then be turned into map data.

Combine that with Open Source GIS software to query the data source and you're in business.

For this to work, you have to have a huge pool of people willing to drive a lot. Even the big map players (NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas) have problems keeping data up to speed, and they have an army of people driving around double-checking existing street grids.

OpenStreetMap is building a, well, open street map. My town in eastern Pennsylvania seems pretty up-to-date as far as I can tell. And they're working on aerials too.