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Not at all. Consumers can allocate their dollars in many different ways, and "passing through to the consumer" means that the energy sector is going to be demanding a greater chunk of the consumer's income stream. Thus, any consumer that can reduce usage will actually be saving money. Similarly, any corporation that can reduce their costs (e.g., by improving efficiency, say) will be more competitive than their less efficient competitors. And away we go.

So the only thing different then what is already true without the cap and trade is that consumers will be pinched by energy prices and someone hopes that causes them to do less. Sounds like a solid plan to me, making things unfordable is a good way to keep usage of materials down. However, I think it is completely wrong.

Anyway, I linked to the CBO report. To make a long story short, costs will go up, but they will go up slightly less for the poorer members of society than for the extremely wealthy. In some cases the costs will remain neutral.

The CBO report sugar coats it as well as ignores certain factors that we are talking about like the costs of non-energy items being raised because of the cost of energy going up. There are several other reports, one by the heritage foundation, that examine that in more detail but still don't address it to my satisfaction.

I apologize. I've read quite a bit about the subject it and haven't seen any Republican-offered proposal that's likely to be effective and likely to draw real support from the Republicans in Congress. But I'm willing to be educated if you really think I've missed something.

You mean you haven't heard of the Michael Jackson' Cap & Trade Alternative?

That Michael Jackson' Cap & Trade Alternative was a joke but seriously, here is a summery of the republican alternatives. You can find out more about the specifics Here and here.

One of the reasons you haven't seen a republican response is because the democrats are largely skipping them in this process and forcing votes on bills without enough time to even read them. They know that under a close examination, their cap and trade bill just doesn't make sense. Now, the Republican alternative isn't bullet proof either, but there is an alternative on the table along with others like mandates uses of technology for future power needs. The problem is that no one is willing to take the best of either world and make something that works without screwing everyone over.

Amend. XVI, furthermore, is a change in the method of raising the taxes to fund Article I spending, and has no substantive impact on what the taxes are raised for.

I couldn't agree with you less. Pandora's box, once opened, has made societal tinkering the favorite pastime of DC. The electrical circuit, if you will, is short-circuited, and issues that have little federal bearing now absorb significant federal time.

Because it is a program for the general welfare, it is implemented federally through an executive agency, directly under the Article I umbrella permitting it.

Then just what is the point of the tenth amendment, sir? If _everything_ is general welfare, was it simply a joke?

Where? The "sub-prime meltdown" is a result of the lack of federal regulation.

It was the federal government operating in an area where it very arguably had no business of any sort. Look at these lying lips in motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
Truly, P.J. O'Rourke has the right of it:
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

I ask again, where was the amendment violated? How is Social Security not an Article I power? What is general welfare, if not health, safety, and maintenance of basic human dignity?

My contention is that the chain of command has been violated, and a state-level authority has been usurped by the Fed.
While I cannot deny the existence of your "general welfare" argument, my point is that somebody a couple hundred years back foresaw the disasters that would follow an overly broad interpretation of that, and put Amendment 10 in place to curb the scope creep of the Fed, lest DC turn into the tyrannical sort of place that London had been.
Now, the rolling disaster that has been Fannie/Freddie has occured, and we've seen the House of Representatives look a godforsaken circus, and the real doom is just a few years out:
http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges-charts/page/14

I don't see any state turning down the money in favor of its own solution.

And why might that be? Have you looked at this post?
http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/supercycle Now, I may be an ignorant redneck, but I'm bettin' that the printin' press we got spewin' money could run out o' ink on o' these days.
Seriously, though, should not the budget balance, and the money originate in the states, and the states manage their own populations?
I'm guessing in advance that you would find this an oversimplification.
At any rate, I thank you for a more serious debate on the matter than I typically enjoy.
Here are a couple of humorous links in an otherwise humorless period:
http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=3130
http://www.buymyshitpile.com/

When handguns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Then ban shotguns so only outlaws will have shotguns. Then smoothbore rifles, so only outlaws will have smoothbore rifles. Try to ban knives, so only outlaws will have knives. And don't forget banning cricket bats, so only outlaws will have cricket bats. (Ok .. that last article was satire...)

When all that fails, ban fists so only outlaws will have fists.

And then every street corner will have a camera to find the outlaws letting their dogs poop in the street.

Remember ... it started in the UK with the banning of hand guns. That excuse was trying curb violence. Doesn't seem to work well....

Scrappleface is so all over this one:
WMD Found Hanging from Rope in Iraq

from: http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2434

Kerry Humbled to Be Named Time's 'Person of the Year'
by Scott Ott

(2006-12-17) -- Sen. John Kerry, D-MA, today announced he is "humbled and grateful" to be named Time Magazine's 'Person of the Year' for 2006.

"When I picked up my copy of Time at the newsstand," said Sen. Kerry, "and saw my own image looking back at me, I thought 'Of all the great people in the world this year -- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Kofi Annan, Kim Jong-Il -- how can it be you, John?'"

The presumptive runner-up for the Democrat presidential nomination in 2008 said he had not yet read the Time cover story because "modesty restrains me."

"And yet," Sen. Kerry added, "in a way, my whole life has been moving toward this moment when the people of this nation and their leaders would say, 'You're the one, John'. There's a sense of destiny, and you can't fight that."

In related news, spokesmen for Sen. Hillary Clinton and former Sen. John Edwards said both would appear at separate news conferences later today to reflect on their feelings after being named Time magazine's 'Person of the Year' for 2006.

Hiroshima Survivors Celebrate Life-Saving Atomic Bomb by Scott Ott (2005-08-06) -- Japanese survivors of the atomic bomb blast at Hiroshima marked the 60th anniversary of the first use of nuclear weapons in war by celebrating the end of the totalitarian rule of Emperor Hirohito, whose blind ambition caused 1.5 million Japanese military casualities and some 672,000 civilian casualities. The hibakusha, or bomb-affected persons, issued a statement condemning totalitarianism and urging people who now live in dictatorships to "bring down their own governments before some outside force must do so for the good of the world." "Each year at this time we usually gather to call for nuclear disarmament," said an unnamed Hiroshima survivor, "but with age comes wisdom. We now realize that despite its horrors, the atomic bomb was a life-saving device that ushered in a new era of Japanese freedom and prosperity. If the American president had not intervened, Hirohito would have squeezed the blood out of our people to the last drop." The survivors' statement urged the United Nations to "learn the lesson of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and thus give up the delusion that dictators will bend to reason, bribes, half-measures or concessions." The hibakusha called on the U.N. to "rise up and live out the true meaning of its charter: collective preemptive action to ensure peace by removing threats to peace."

On the same subject is this article:

Bush: Schools Show No Evidence of Intelligent Design
by Scott Ott

(2005-08-04) -- Entering the debate over the teaching of origins for the first time, President George Bush today said he sees "no evidence of intelligent design in America's public schools."

"A lot folks claim that the public school system is irreducibly complex, so there must have been an intelligent designer," said Mr. Bush, "But I believe our public schools advance by mutation and random chance. They have evolved into an unwieldy beast with an insatiable appetite."

The president, a professed Christian, said his only hope for a better future in American education rests on his faith in "the survival of the fittest."

"First cynical point: They'll be using the existing shell design, because they're going to use existing everything. We pay billions, they claim to have redesigned everything, they redesign nothing. They make a few minor cosmetic changes and we all live under the assertion that we live in a brave new NASA world of progress once again while some beaurocrat reappropriates the money for his own black-ops"

Well; mostly the money goes to the contracters such as boeing, and other large companies who do nasa's work.

What would be cheaper is if NASA hired all their own engineers and actually built the shuttle in a NASA hangar from the start.

It would be cheaper of they built their own shit from parts than hiring a middle man to do it for them.

Don't believe me?
Here is some examples:
http://www.gcn.com/vol1_no1/project-management/267 36-1.htmlNasa hires Computer Sciences Corp for consulting.
http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001014.htm l#001014Nasa Hires consultant on shuttle

Everything they do is contracted through a middle man. The only engineers on staff are there to help oversee the contract work and there to help if there is problems with something.

Has the $10,000 reward been claimed, then? Cuz last I heard, he was still offering that to anyone who could find a factual error in Fahrenheit 9/11.

That was pure publicity. Do you honestly think that he would pay one red cent to anyone who criticizes his work, especially given that this is his usual reaction to the slightest criticism?

Scrappleface is running a story as well.

MTV is part of Viacom, whose CEO is an avowed Republican and Bush supporter. I hardly think MTV is part of some conspiracy to link Bush to the draft now are they?

Why do you keep bringing up the CEO? That's irrelevant. Do you expect me to believe that the CEO of Viacom would ever instruct MTV to avoid showing ads that are subtly biased against the candidate he favors? I thought pudge handled this point rather well.

The only "bias" is the one you see in your own mind. It's not RTV's fault that some young adults believe that Bush is in favour of the draft. It's also not RTV's fault that a major issue for young adults is the threat of one. If RTV were to ignore the draft issue because of the reasons you give, then they most certainly would be being biased - they would be avoiding highlighting a central issue important to most of their target base simply because it offends one party that they're highlighting it.

My whole point is that it's not an issue. It's a fabricated issue to which both candidates had decisively responded. There is no "threat" of a draft, just like there's no "threat" of voters' rights being repealed.

How can you claim that the following script (taken from one of their online ads) does not make it seem like the current administration wants to draft people into the military?

(Party atmosphere with people dancing)
Guy: I just got this sweet job doing promotions, and, hopefully, in six months, I'll get to know enough people to start my own thing.

Girl: That's if you don't get drafted first.

Guy: Drafted?

Girl: Drafted. For the war?

Guy: Will they do that?

(Everyone falls silent and turns to look at the camera. The text "It's up to you." is shown on the screen.)

Woman's voice: The draft. One of the many issues that could be decided this election.

A forensic scientist studying photographic evidence has identified an object which caused a bump on the back of a suit jacket worn by President George Bush during his first debate with John Forbes Kerry.

"It's a spine," said the unnamed scientist. "The president's backbone, in a sense, was showing during his debate with Mr. Kerry."

You see, its the facts that are working to support Bush, not the liberal hyperbole that the likes of you spew. It looks like you're not an American -- simply against Bush, not for Kerry.

In the 20 years Kerry has been in the Senate, he's accomplished NOTHING OF NOTE! He's a joke here in the States! http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001831.htm l. Read Kerry's bio -- there's almost nothing about his Senate Service BECAUSE HE'S DONE NOTHING WHILE IN THE SENATE! He can't even attend the Senate Intellegence Committee meetings (he's assigned to the committee) -- his attendance is somewhere near 25%!

The Invasion of Iraq was completely justified at the U.N. level, the U.S. Federal Government level, and the U.S. public opinion level. It was not illegal, and even the 'World Court' would find it difficult to find it illegal.

In the 4 years Bush has been in office he's:

1. Pushed for legislation to helped the US economy overcome the catastrophic impact of the 9/11/01 attacks
2. Pushed for legislation to given Seniors low cost prescription coverage
3. Pushed for nationwide Education Reform (No Child Left Behind)
4. Pushed for lowering the Federal Tax Rate for all tax paying Americans
5. Pushed for legislation providing massive funding for several health research initiatives including $15 billion over 5 years for AIDS research
6. Had the US Armed Forces unseat the Taliban as rulers of Afghanistan
7. Had the US Armed Forces unseat Saddam Hussein as ruler of Iraq
8. Saw Libya's Gov't abandon their nuclear weapons program
9. Working currently to bring the Sudan to stop the Genocide in Darfur
10. Working currently to get China and Russia to deal with North Korea's Nuclear Threat
11. And, last but not least, told all you socialists bastards around the world to go get stuffed!

Some of you are slightly dense and missing my point -- What's good for France AND Germany AND Russia AND China AND North Korea AND (insert every large country except the US here) is probably going to be BAD FOR THE UNITED STATES, and therefore we would naturally, TAKE THE OPPOSITE POSITION. I.E IF THE REST OF THE WORLD WOULD LIKE KERRY AS POTUS, WE'D BE WELL ADVISED TO VOTE FOR BUSH!

Get It! Its not spite! It's a logical argument.

Oh, I'm sorry, you've shown by example you don't know what those are ...

As Neal says, you shall know the truth, and it will make you mad! :)

Another blog in a similar mindset:
http://instapundit.com/

Right-leaning blogs

http://rightwingnews.com/
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
http://nicedoggie.net/

Humor - to balance out the bitterness of the last two

http://www.coxandforkum.com/ - Editorial cartoons
http://www.scrappleface.com/ - News satire

Moore Film Captures French, Arab Awards

(2004-05-23) -- After the stunning triumph of Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 at the Cannes Film Festival in France, the winner of the coveted Palme d'Or headed to the Gulf state of Qatar to accept another best film award from Al Jazeera.

The Arab network's Palme d'Tree award recognizes Mr. Moore's anti-Bush documentary as a "stunning journalistic and artistic achievement which is all the more amazing because of the oppressive government under which it was produced."

"That someone could make a film like this in America, under the iron fist of the Bush-Cheney administration, demonstrates a kind of courage unknown and unnecessary in the free Arab film industry," according to the official news release from the Al Jazeera Film Festival.

Fahrenheit 9/11 edged out top Arab-produced films including, The Mighty Eternal House of Saud, Zarqawi: Hero of Modern Islam and Elegy for a Brother: Tribute to Saddam Hussein.

Mr. Moore said he's delighted to receive recognition from both France and the Arab world in the same week, and that he hoped it would inspire other Americans to "rise up and overthrow the Bush regime and thus win freedom of expression for other documentarists."

(2004-03-01) -- Oscar-sweeping director Peter Jackson this morning said he would team up with Pixar Studios, which last night won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature Film, to produce a rollicking adventure tentatively titled "Finding Smeagol." Read the rest...

(disclaimer: satire)

Actually lots of Amish die from automibile accidents

Penn State Strikes Deals with Napster, Budweiser

Satire: 'Do Not Call' Registry Funded by Email Address Sales

Santorum Opposes Calling Chimps 'Homo'
(2003-05-19) -- Despite a scientist's claim that genetic similarities should place chimpanzees in the same taxonomic genus as humans, U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum, R-PA, will introduce a bill this week making it illegal to call a chimp 'Homo'. MORE...

Santorum Opposes Calling Chimps 'Homo'
(2003-05-19) -- Despite a scientist's claim that genetic similarities should place chimpanzees in the same taxonomic genus as humans, U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum, R-PA, will introduce a bill this week making it illegal to call a chimp 'Homo'. MORE...